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In A Song of Ice and Fire, as in
real life, there are cycles of 

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violence. 
Countries, kingdoms, families, 

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houses, individuals fall into 
the trap of blood, debts, 

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revenge, vendettas, vengeance. 
Sometimes you call it justice. 

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The fact that there's so many 
words for it kind of helps sell 

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the point a bit. 
There's so many ways to describe

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this concept and it goes on and 
on. 

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It tends to, as each fresh 
grievance must be answered. 

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They never feel like it's quite 
equal. 

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Like now we've settled it, now 
it always just kind of starts up

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again. 
Or maybe not always, but often 

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it starts up again. 
Sometimes there's a resolution, 

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but sometimes that's just a 
reprieve, not an actual end of 

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the cycle. 
It's like dormant or 

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hibernating, without a third 
power to intervene. 

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The end only comes when one side
is ended, if they don't settle 

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it on their own. 
But when they don't, that is 

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often the only other way it gets
settled. 

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And often there is no third 
power to step in, no independent

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arbiter, no central authority to
lay out what actually is justice

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rather than what passes for 
justice. 

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But whether or not it has any 
sway, that sentiment always 

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exists. 
There's always people, even 

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those on the winning side, even 
on the side with the more just 

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grievance, who hold true to the 
conviction that these cycles 

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must end, that peace is more 
important than vengeance or 

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anything really for Song of Ice 
and Fire, as in real life, as 

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well as such individuals as the 
Green Grace said, peace is the 

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Pearl beyond price. 
Now, she probably has a 

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political agenda when she makes 
that statement, but that doesn't

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mean it isn't true. 
But Galaza Galare and her 

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machinations, or lack thereof, 
are not the topic of today. 

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It's another advocate for peace,
someone who has seen the cycles 

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up close and personal, and is at
risk of seeing even more 

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hilarious. 
Sand is our topic today. 

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She's a mother of four, one of 
whom is old enough to be joining

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the ongoing Game of Thrones just
now. 

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Really. 
Right? 

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Right as this, right where the 
story is. 

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She doesn't want to see that 
daughter, nor the other three of

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her daughters become part of 
that cycle of violence. 

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But of course, she doesn't have 
full say over this. 

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That makes for quite a contrast 
to her lover, the father of 

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these four children, the 
infamous Red Viper, the man who,

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perhaps most of all personifies 
these cycles of violence within 

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a single character. 
You could argue Blackwood and 

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Bracken personify it the most in
terms of houses, but in terms of

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one single person, Oberyn 
Martell's brief time on screen 

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is all about settling an old 
score, and his history is has a 

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lot to do with continuing other 
old scores, so he has a lot of 

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experience with it on both 
sides, both the receiving end 

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and the giving end. 
Additionally, Elaria is a 

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bastard of House Uller, known 
for being violent, a bit mad and

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vindictive, and according to our
last episode, our core Yeah, her

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father seems to be more than 
willing for Dorne to be thrown 

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into war, either over the death 
of the Red Viper or perhaps just

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in general because some people 
want war and he's an Uller. 

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Some people do be like that, but
she was even closer to the Red 

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Viper then. 
Well, perhaps anyone, even Doran

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or their beloved Elia, whom they
named their first child together

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after. 
That's telling you something, 

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isn't it? 
And Despite that closeness and 

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his loss, Elaria openly argues 
for peace. 

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She argues that the cycle should
end. 

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In fact, it is quite possibly 
because she is so close to all 

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this bloodiness that she wants 
to stop it. 

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But that's not all that makes 
her compelling for the rest of 

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what makes her interesting. 
Well, we've got all that and 

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more on this episode of History 
of Westeros podcast. 

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Another character like Oberon 
that maybe does a lot to 

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personify the concept of 
vengeance. 

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Maybe she isn't old enough or 
hasn't gotten wrapped up in it 

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enough yet, but Arya is on that 
path. 

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Yeah, that's true. 
Better than I thinking about it,

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you know. 
Yeah, you're absolutely right. 

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Her list is is very much that 
and we hope that maybe she finds

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a better path in the long run, 
but in the in the short term 

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it's going to be pretty 
interesting. 

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We'll see what she does. 
So yeah, Aria is a good example 

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of the opposite end of that I 
suppose. 

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Or maybe someone that will go 
through this cycle and decide 

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she doesn't want to be a part of
anymore, which is something 

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we'll suggest for Ilaria. 
Ilaria may not have borne, may 

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not have been born and and as a 
teenager may not have been like 

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this. 
She may have in fact become anti

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vengeance because of the death 
of the Red Viper that may have 

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been what woke her up. 
That's a topic we will be 

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getting into today, among 
others. 

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But before we get into the 
episode, I want to recommend a 

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00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,600
podcast I've been listening to 
and I think you'll enjoy as 

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00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,440
well. 
If you like Viking stuff, The 

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00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,240
History of Vikings hosted by 
Noah Tetzner is available 

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00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,200
wherever you get podcasts. 
It's a mostly interview based 

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00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,400
podcast, so Noah gets experts, 
historians, archaeologists, 

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00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,400
writers, etcetera. 
People who know specific things,

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who have made it their career to
understand these things as best 

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as possible. 
And as I said, I've listened to 

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the show quite a few times. 
I've binged it and kept up with 

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them on a regular basis, both 
both cycles of that I've done. 

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Some recent episodes include 
King Harold, Bluetooth, Viking 

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Age ghosts and zombies, Weapons 
and battle tactics, the Vikings 

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00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,160
in Russia and most recently in 
here. 

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In the end of 2023, an interview
about Viking Yule, the Norse 

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00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,200
winter holiday and the Wild 
Hunt, which is a fun 

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00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,240
mythological thing that's been 
used in a lot of different 

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00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,040
fantasy series and stories. 
Especially The Witcher is the 

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00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,120
one I'm mostly here with. 
But anyway, yeah, subscribe to 

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00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,600
the history of Vikings wherever 
you listen to podcasts and let 

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00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,360
us know what you think. 
Hello and welcome everybody. 

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We're back with another episode.
Glad to have you here. 

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Almost every Sunday we have live
streams at 3:00 PM. 

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00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,360
You can catch them afterwards. 
The edited version anywhere you 

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catch podcasts. 
The video version is well 

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edited. 
Put up on Spotify and you can 

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get everything available odd 
free on Patreon. 

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Sean, what are you drinking 
today? 

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Some sort of mute juice? 
Is that? 

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Got the Naked Green Machine as 
always, and I've been adding the

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the Bolthouse Vanilla protein in
since the the Naked protein 

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drinks haven't been available 
oddly enough, and I got a little

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magic mind in there and good old
Mountain Dew. 

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Magic Mind not to be confused 
with Magic Mike. 

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I'm going to keep making that 
joke for years, yeah, and I want

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to make a special shout out 
here. 

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Our good friend Nina, who 
normally we would shout out her 

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blog here, which I'll do anyway.
Good Queen allie.tumblr.com with

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1L and Allie, but much more 
importantly than the weekly 

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shout out. 
Congrats to Nina and her new 

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fiance James for getting 
engaged. 

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Yay, then, there was much 
rejoicing. 

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I'd say that was her Jaharis, 
but we know, we know Nina's not 

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the biggest fan of Jaharis. 
That's. 

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True, That's true. 
Yeah, that's a good point. 

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Ali got her Jaharis, but not 
that Jaharis. 

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We'll keep it More of a 
metaphorical James. 

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Harris. 
Yeah, James Harris. 

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That's right. 
Yeah, His name is James James 

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and that's great, let's say. 
Yeah, James Harris. 

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That's right. 
Very good. 

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Yes, Congrats to you all. 
We're very happy for you all and

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wish you a happy life together. 
And yeah, three cheers from 

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everyone. 
Rejoice if you have any 

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00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,440
questions about anything we talk
about today or just how to 

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support, where to find our 
social media, any of that, you 

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00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,680
can either e-mail us at 
westrosehistory@gmail.com or 

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00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,240
visit historyofwesteros.com. 
It's all there, all the links, 

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all the stuff, all the 
suggestions. 

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And at the end of this episode, 
I'll mention some other ones 

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that relate to things we 
discussed in this one. 

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Before we get started, our usual
trivia question. 

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The answer can be found during 
the episode Which house did 

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Oberyn Martell Foster at? 
The fostering system, of course,

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is very common with the nobles, 
and Oberyn was no different. 

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He fostered somewhere. 
But where was it? 

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I think we even mentioned it in 
last week's episode Hardcore 

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Houses. 
So you may have come in knowing 

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that, but if not, like I said, 
it'll be repeated, so keep your 

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ears peeled. 
Illaria is not a warrior, nor 

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does she have much political 
power. 

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She may have had a little bit 
through Oberyn, but that's gone 

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now. 
So most of our focus will be on 

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her relationships with other 
characters as well as what she 

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means to the story, what she 
represents and all that, which 

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is fairly unique. 
Doran points out how well he and

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Oberyn worked together despite 
seeming to be so opposite in 

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many ways. 
Some of that becomes is because 

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Doran's brother, they have the 
blood ties and they they love 

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each other regardless of their 
differences, and vice versa. 

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But at the same time, you don't 
choose your siblings, you don't 

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choose your parents, you don't 
choose your family. 

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And Lara and Oberyn must have 
had plenty of important things 

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in common to have a functional 
relationship that lasted so 

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long. 
This is a violent, aggressive 

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man that had a stable 
relationship with this woman for

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15 years or so. 
I mean, maybe even longer, but 

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that's a long time. 
And they didn't choose. 

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They didn't. 
They weren't forced to be 

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together. 
This wasn't an arranged 

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marriage, like a lot of noble 
marriages are, So part of what 

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makes her and them unique is 
this scenario. 

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They chose each other, they 
loved each other and they were 

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the only person in each other's 
life that were ever like this. 

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They didn't have, neither of 
them had a comparative 

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relationship that was similar. 
Well, they wouldn't have had. 

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She wouldn't have had time for 
one and and he never stayed with

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any of his other mothers of his 
children for more than a little 

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while. 
Now usually we do a first 

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mention or first appearance 
section here, but hers we're 

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going to place chronologically 
instead because we want to 

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analyze that scene, a lot of the
one where she first appears, but

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only after we set it up. 
So let's talk about her birth 

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and early life. 
And her father is Lord Harmon 

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Uller. 
We don't know who his wife slash

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her mother was, not 
surprisingly, nor do we know if 

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they have other children. 
So the this Uller family is a 

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little bit hazy right now. 
He may not have any other 

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children. 
His brother Ulwick. 

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00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,640
Ulwick Uller, it's kind of hard 
to say, showed up with the Red 

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Viper and Harmon at the party 
when Oberyn showed up. 

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So they all those three came 
together. 

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Oberyn came with Ulwick, Harmon 
and Ellaria, but there were no 

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00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,520
other Uller. 
So if they had, he had an adult 

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son. 
He either stayed home to be 

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there must always be an Uller at
the Hell Hold or some business 

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like that. 
So we're not quite clear on 

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00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,240
that. 
But it's it's notable perhaps 

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00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,240
that we might learn eventually. 
So this Harmon Eller is thus 

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00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,720
grandfather to the four children
of Oberyn and Ellaria who are 

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Ilia, Obella, Deraya and Laresa 
who certainly have a few things 

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to say about throughout this 
episode. 

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Also important to mention, Sean,
did you when we were starting 

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this episode, did you recall or 
did it occur to you to consider 

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that the Darnish tend to treat 
bastards differently? 

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So there's a already a bit of a 
dichotomy here with what we 

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expect from a relationship with 
a a bastard person. 

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I was even thinking the idea of 
leaving a son a hell hold. 

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Well, it might not have been a 
son. 

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00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,320
It might have been another 
daughter or some other. 

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00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,760
Yeah, Heiress. 
You know, even if we think of 

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them as being hardcore, women 
can be hardcore. 

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00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,040
Oh yeah. 
And and we see it's it's kind of

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00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,400
a theme here looking at Ilaria, 
how this difference of like a 

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woman knowing her place, that 
concept doesn't, is not part of 

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her psyche or her culture or 
anything. 

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So and of course this is this 
extends to their relationships 

226
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,920
like their paramours and non 
traditional relationships like 

227
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,680
that. 
This Dorne's more accepting of 

228
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:23,560
such things. 
So this is something that builds

229
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:26,040
up, is important for Ilaria is a
lot of things that are 

230
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,880
relatively normal in Dorne. 
Are you know, culturally 

231
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,120
shocking to Westerosi nobles 
like, oh, she's a bastard, oh, 

232
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,800
she's a paramour, oh, she and 
she's Dornish and she's a woman.

233
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,040
There's lots of lot of prejudice
wrapped up in in this character 

234
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,200
aimed at her by others, which is
part of what makes her 

235
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,360
interesting. 
We don't know that she was 

236
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,360
raised by her father, but 
because of the way Dornish treat

237
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,320
their bastards, she probably 
was. 

238
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,080
There's every reason to assume 
that, based on what we know, she

239
00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,480
in fact rather not. 
She, Arianne assumes that Lord 

240
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,640
Uller would be angry to hear 
that Ellari and her daughters 

241
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,880
were imprisoned if if he didn't 
think much of his bachelor 

242
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,400
daughter, he wouldn't be upset 
about this. 

243
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,520
I wouldn't think so. 
It all lines up pretty well to 

244
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,800
show that, yeah, she was 
probably raised there given a 

245
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,480
relatively normal education for 
a Dornish noble person. 

246
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,400
And despite being an Uller, 
though, she, you know, another 

247
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,000
thing we discussed about the 
Eller, She doesn't seem to have 

248
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,240
the madness, if if it's even 
really a thing. 

249
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,720
But maybe it's because she was 
raised in a vindictive, 

250
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,160
aggressive environment with all 
these blood Fudes that maybe 

251
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,920
that's why, that she's on the 
opposite extreme. 

252
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,440
She has a lot of upfront 
knowledge, she's up close and 

253
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,640
personal and has maybe most, if 
not all of her life. 

254
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,160
I can't remember if or how much 
we talked about that in the 

255
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,040
hardcore houses, but you can 
imagine Olders might want to 

256
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:49,200
play up this notorious 
reputation of being mad, like 

257
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,480
let him think we're mad. 
You know, we're actually pretty 

258
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,080
killed here. 
And again, even that is 

259
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,760
something that could change from
generation to generation 

260
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,920
depending who's in charge or 
whether or not they're going 

261
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,800
through war and such. 
But I I I tend to think that she

262
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,640
probably did have a shift after 
Oberon died, but it could be 

263
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,720
that she was raised and the 
Olers in general are a little 

264
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,360
bit more level headed than you 
might think so. 

265
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:13,760
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, it definitely. 

266
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,400
In an environment like Westeros 
or just enduring, there's 

267
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,280
there's definitely value in 
people being afraid of you, even

268
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,040
if it's not deserved. 
So yeah, like I said, not a 

269
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,360
warrior, nor is she a poisoner 
or a courtier or a political 

270
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,600
animal or an ambitious person. 
But in spite of that, or perhaps

271
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,440
partly because of that, she 
stands out. 

272
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,240
See her good education come up 
when she talked with Sansa about

273
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,200
Baylor the Blessed. 
And this is the difference 

274
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,600
between naive and and maybe 
someone who's been around the 

275
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,520
block a few times. 
Like Elaria, where Sansa is 

276
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,560
still very young in this moment,
this is A Storm of Swords where 

277
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,520
Sansa repeats the familiar 
legend that the Vipers refused 

278
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,560
to bite Baylor the Blessed 
because he was so holy and 

279
00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,480
Elaria is like now he was bitten
quite a few times like his feet 

280
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,440
were full of the holes. 
He's not holy. 

281
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,360
His feet were full of holes from
where the Vipers bit him, and 

282
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,080
it's wild that he didn't die. 
Which, to be fair, you would 

283
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,680
expect that if he had been 
bitten, he would have died. 

284
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,120
So it's kind of like, yeah, he 
maybe he wasn't. 

285
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,040
It's a miracle either way, 
right? 

286
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:17,640
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

287
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,640
Yeah. 
One way to look at it, like even

288
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,160
when she tries to bring the 
truth out of it to Sansa, I I 

289
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,320
feel like she's still 
recognizing it's still 

290
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,040
impressive. 
You have a detail wrong, but 

291
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,480
it's still very impressive. 
Yes. 

292
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,720
Noteworthy, etcetera. 
And this is a a neat point to 

293
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,520
make a Laurie of all people 
talking about Baylor of the 

294
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,200
Blessed. 
A person who was, like, 

295
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,120
overwhelmingly dedicated to 
peace, like, perhaps more so 

296
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,200
than any any character we could 
ever point to. 

297
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,600
Maybe not even perhaps just I I 
can't really think of someone 

298
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,560
who personifies peace more than 
Baylor of the Blessed. 

299
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,800
Now, Lauria being educated and 
having a conversation, knows 

300
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,160
that too, and so does Sansa. 
So it's neat that George had 

301
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,720
that dialogue come from her, a 
person that becomes such an 

302
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,520
advocate for peace. 
Now we don't know when she was 

303
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,960
born, but she has a 14 year old,
so that gives us some sort of 

304
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,160
range. 
Oberyn was born in 257 or 258. 

305
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,920
I'm going to guess that she's 
about eight or nine years 

306
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,120
younger than him, which would 
make her about 32. 

307
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,000
It could be less. 
I mean she could be more like 

308
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,320
3435. 
I kind of, I'm assuming she's 

309
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,440
younger than him. 
Fairly safe assumption, but it 

310
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,560
doesn't have to be like a lot of
a gap. 

311
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,960
She seems to be intelligent and 
poised, examples of which we'll 

312
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,480
see. 
Like emotionally tough mental. 

313
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,960
Like strong mental health. 
Basically, most of what we see 

314
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,680
of her is through Ariel Hota's 
eyes. 

315
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,360
And Ario is a tough man, right? 
Strong himself, no doubt, and he

316
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,360
knows how strong and good she 
is, and Doran knows how much 

317
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,200
Oberyn loved her. 
So the adults in the room all 

318
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,080
recognize this, and it's noted 
several times. 

319
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,200
And these are all characters who
we're meant to trust their 

320
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,640
perspective for for a better 
way, right? 

321
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,720
We're not suspicious of their 
opinions of hers. 

322
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,680
Yeah, that's a very good point. 
Nina notes that as well, that 

323
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,720
Ilaria isn't afraid to look 
Cersei in the eye or speak to 

324
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,720
Sansa on equal terms, even 
though, like some people would 

325
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,960
be, like, worried about the 
hierarchy there. 

326
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,480
It's like, oh, Sansa's this, you
know, poached by the Tyrells and

327
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,680
gonna be married to Tyrion and 
all that. 

328
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,319
So she still ranks quote UN 
quote way higher than Ilaria. 

329
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:20,520
But that didn't seem to matter 
to her. 

330
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,720
She wasn't intimidated and I got
to think that this is part of 

331
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,560
what was attractive to Oprah in 
the 1st place, noting this 

332
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:34,560
woman's confidence in her just 
ability to be herself in these 

333
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,800
environments where there's a lot
of pressure to be something 

334
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,200
she's not, you know, just to to 
look down on her. 

335
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,240
You know, it reminds me of 
something I kind of realized 

336
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,080
through the course of that 
Hardcore houses episode. 

337
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,840
I think at the moment we were 
talking about cannibalism, but 

338
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,120
just the idea in general that 
part of what makes someone 

339
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,840
hardcore, is it something that 
would normally get in the way, 

340
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,520
doesn't get in the way of 
someone's hardcore, whether that

341
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,280
for better or worse, right? 
Whether it's the cold or hunger 

342
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:10,240
or some social construct like 
not eating other humans or or in

343
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,120
a case this idea of her social 
rank, you know, she's like, I 

344
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,160
don't know about social ranks 
that social ranks not going to 

345
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,280
hold me back. 
I I am who I am and I'm 

346
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,600
confident with it and I'll speak
to anyone as an equal. 

347
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,560
Like that's kind of a hardcore 
mentality to have right to not 

348
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,080
let something that normally 
might hold Sansa or or you know 

349
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,200
some other person might be timid
in the presence of some Lord but

350
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,080
not her. 
She's just as confident as ever.

351
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:38,080
Yep, well said, Good said. 
Now, interestingly, this makes 

352
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,920
both of them slightly more 
interesting. 

353
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,680
Not or not more interesting, but
more unique is that there's only

354
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,520
one character named Oberyn in 
all of A Song of Ice and Fire 

355
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,480
and A Song of Ice and History. 
Surely there's others we just 

356
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,520
don't that they haven't been 
revealed. 

357
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,920
I doubt he's the first person 
ever named Oberyn in in history,

358
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,280
but he's the only one we know 
of. 

359
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,360
Same with Ilaria. 
There's no other Ilarias in Fire

360
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,280
and Blood or The World of Ice 
and Fire or Duncan Egg or Song 

361
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,920
of Ice and Fire, so they're both
the only ones with that name for

362
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,880
now. 
So let's touch on just how well 

363
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,200
Oberyn and Olaria are written as
a couple. 

364
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,440
He is perhaps the single most 
representative character of the 

365
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,800
blood feud concept. 
As I said in the intro, let's 

366
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,360
describe just why real quickly. 
Not only did he get his 

367
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,400
nickname, the Red Viper from the
Ironwood incident, which is when

368
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,960
he slept with Lord Ironwood's 
Paramore got caught, and then 

369
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,880
there was a duel for Honor. 
And since they were 

370
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,600
high-ranking, it was just a duel
to first blood, not to the 

371
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,440
death. 
But then the Ironwood got sick 

372
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,200
after the duel and it was 
whispered that he used poison, 

373
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,240
the guy died. 
It was like oh, and then that 

374
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,480
the Ironwoods and Martel's have 
had a long running feud, so that

375
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,720
really harmed it. 
And to fix that, that's why 

376
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:53,240
Quentin became a Squire to the 
Iron Woods and a few other 

377
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,800
things had to be done to to fix 
that relationship. 

378
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,280
And then he reignited the Tyrell
Martel feud by. 

379
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,680
What he By hurting Willis 
Tyrell? 

380
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,200
That one probably wasn't his 
fault. 

381
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,080
I believe him when he says it 
was. 

382
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,280
The boy was too young and he got
his foot in the stirrup and that

383
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,680
all adds up to me. 
Maybe the Red Viper went, you 

384
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,000
know, went hard on him anyway, 
but he's right that he shouldn't

385
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,920
have been. 
Either way, it reignited a feud.

386
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,120
It just goes to show these 
grudges. 

387
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,680
It doesn't take much. 
It can it publicly it looks bad 

388
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:23,800
even if he didn't do it on 
purpose. 

389
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,280
And it's part of the problem 
with these things in the 1st 

390
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,680
place, right Sean? 
Yeah, sometimes when there's 

391
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,640
already this history, something 
that normally would be 

392
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,920
overlooked or excused instead 
becomes an excuse to reignite 

393
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,840
the past flames. 
And that is exactly there. 

394
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,000
And of course the big one, the 
one that he's after, the revenge

395
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,600
on the Lannisters for Ilia, 
which is, you know, most of his 

396
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,080
story. 
It's almost like in the inverse 

397
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,480
of the concept of fridging, 
where you have often a woman 

398
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,320
character dies to give pathos to
a male character. 

399
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:02,640
Well, he died and she's the one 
that has the pathos, but he was 

400
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,000
still maybe the more important 
character, I don't know. 

401
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,360
I mean at the time he was maybe 
in the long run we'll see. 

402
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,480
But yeah, it's kind of an 
inverse of that concept. 

403
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,800
Him dying gave pathos to the 
nation. 

404
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,240
Yeah, the. 
Whole country to everyone. 

405
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,560
She's the one that's like, no, 
I'm the one that's closest to 

406
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,520
him, and all of you were wrong. 
Yeah, and I feel like often when

407
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,160
a woman is fringed it is the 
inverse and that the the man 

408
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,640
wants vengeance and so it really
is a very inverted there. 

409
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,560
Yeah, it's kind of neat, right? 
I was like, oh, I didn't, I 

410
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,000
didn't really. 
I definitely didn't catch that 

411
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,960
until taking a look into this 
topic was like, yeah, it's kind 

412
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,000
of an inverse fridge, which it's
also funny that it's Dorne, like

413
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,920
the hottest country. 
So it's deserting. 

414
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,640
That's what we call this, right?
Or baking or fridging. 

415
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,640
This is ovening, yeah. 
You know, another thought it's 

416
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,080
especially if he didn't poison 
that Ironwood character, then it

417
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,320
would be, it would be two 
instances of him kind of being 

418
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,640
mixed up in the reignition of a 
blood feud that wasn't really 

419
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,480
his fault. 
But when it comes to Ilia, he's 

420
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,440
like, now this is real, right? 
That he might be extra, like 

421
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,320
those other things should have, 
couldn't have happened or 

422
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,440
whatever. 
But this needs to happen. 

423
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,200
He might have an extra sort of 
vindication in his mind about 

424
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,760
this vengeance. 
Yeah, yeah, that's true. 

425
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,880
Now, to be fair, sleeping with a
High Lord's Paramore is probably

426
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,640
not probably a provocation. 
It's probably fair to call that 

427
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,480
a provocation. 
Indeed, but you can still how he

428
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,960
would think anyone can sleep 
with anything like what's the 

429
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,000
big deal? 
Like you could. 

430
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,400
See how you would. 
Justify that as something that's

431
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,920
not worth, you know, drawing 
blood over, you know, but. 

432
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,760
Which is part of why they tried 
to do settle it with just a 

433
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,320
first blood duel rather. 
But then that got worse because 

434
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,560
yeah. 
Anyway, so he didn't seem to 

435
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,400
have much of A pattern like a 
type. 

436
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,000
You know, Oberyn, I mean the 
four women he had children with 

437
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,840
before Olaria were very 
different from one another. 

438
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,680
Obara's mother was a sex worker 
from Old Town or in Old Town. 

439
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:04,920
We don't actually know she was 
from there. 

440
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,800
But fairly safe assumption. 
Nymeria's mother was an 

441
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,040
aristocrat from Volantis, like 
very different there. 

442
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,160
Sorella's is a sailor from the 
Summer Islands. 

443
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:15,640
All, you know, really, really 
different too. 

444
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,120
And then Tyene's was a SEPTA. 
Not exactly sure where where she

445
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,320
was from, but probably not from 
Dorne. 

446
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:27,000
So that's an example of just for
women who, you know, maybe they 

447
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,160
have some things in common, but 
it's not apparent to us just 

448
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,200
from hearing descriptions of 
them. 

449
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,920
We don't see them on screen, so 
it's hard to get detail. 

450
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,120
There, all stacked. 
They're all stacked. 

451
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:41,920
They're all baddies. 
Yeah, total bad. 

452
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,160
So Ilaria, Nina says Ilaria is 
also occupied A somewhat liminal

453
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,360
space compared to the mothers of
his older daughters. 

454
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,680
She wasn't any of those things. 
She's not a sex worker. 

455
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,720
She's not a foreign aristocrat, 
certainly not a sailor, 

456
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,160
certainly not a SEPTA or any of 
these things. 

457
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,160
So just a Dornish woman, you 
know, actual an actual Dornish 

458
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,520
person. 
Like the other thing that's 

459
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,680
interesting about Ilaria 
compared to Oberon's lovers is 

460
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,960
she's the first one that's 
Dornish, right? 

461
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,000
So that as well as. 
I don't know if that's anything 

462
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,800
we can read into that, but it's 
noteworthy I suppose, and the 

463
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,960
fact this may have been part of 
what drew him to her in the 1st 

464
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,760
place. 
What drew Oberyn Delaria may 

465
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,920
have been the fact that she 
didn't have all this baggage 

466
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,520
that so many noble women have, 
which is political 

467
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,560
considerations. 
If they have kids together, 

468
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,720
those kids will have political 
considerations. 

469
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,080
They might have claims that need
to be addressed by making this 

470
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,320
bastard woman his lover. 
Their children are connected to 

471
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,600
the Royal family, but they're 
not a threat in that sense. 

472
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,240
They don't have the same 
political power that makes them 

473
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,440
dangerous. 
They are dangerous. 

474
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,720
The Sand Snakes are, but not for
that reason. 

475
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,160
Necessarily, Chuck, do you think
that there's no way that those 

476
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,560
that those bastards would ever 
have a claim on the on the 

477
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,080
hellhole through like conniving 
like I feel like they could if 

478
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,400
they really wanted to? 
Yeah, I shouldn't say no claim. 

479
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,520
It's just significantly. 
Reduced less, but like the rest 

480
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,720
of the others die they're 
getting the hell holed. 

481
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,880
And if they killed the rest of 
the the Ullers say like let's 

482
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,840
say little Elia was like, I want
this. 

483
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,840
I think she could get it. 
Yeah, you know, you might be 

484
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,760
right about that. 
Yeah. 

485
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,000
Like, with enough, with the 
right maneuvering and this 

486
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,160
proper levels of of violence, 
you can do a lot. 

487
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:31,040
That's a good point. 
Yeah. 

488
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,840
I wondered for a moment if that 
might be part of why he. 

489
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,440
I don't know about the physical 
attraction. 

490
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,400
Could be a million different 
things, but but there's a 

491
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,320
million women for him to be 
physically attracted to. 

492
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,240
But to start this relationship 
with a Dornish woman. 

493
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,960
I wonder if there was some 
amount of maturing in him, him 

494
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,040
thinking about his perception as
the Prince with women from all 

495
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,160
these other lands. 
Maybe he needs to bring it home 

496
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,400
a little. 
Maybe Doran told him to do that.

497
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,080
And even if that was the case, 
it doesn't. 

498
00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:58,840
The relationship they end up 
forming after the fact seems 

499
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,520
strong, but I I wonder if there 
was an amount of him, yeah, 

500
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,760
deciding to settle down with 
someone from home for the sake 

501
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,680
of looks, you know? 
It's possible and the timing of 

502
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,640
their apparent meeting is very 
important as well, which we're 

503
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,160
about to get to 1 more, one or 
two more points before that. 

504
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,840
How Ilaria and Oberyn met, we 
don't know. 

505
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,760
He was fostered at Sandstone, 
which is 1 castle over from the 

506
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,760
Hellholt. 
So. 

507
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,960
But I wouldn't call it close. 
Maybe they met an attorney or a 

508
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,360
wedding. 
There's lots of just high end 

509
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,160
functions that they both could 
have been at. 

510
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,960
Nina has a great theory though, 
which is that recall that Oberyn

511
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,520
was probably overseas during 
Robert's rebellion because 

512
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,400
there's he just isn't around. 
There's no note of where he was.

513
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,000
So he's probably overseas, and 
we hear that he briefly tried to

514
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,320
raise Doran for Viserys, Danny's
brother, after at some point 

515
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,400
after the war was over, probably
after he returned home from 

516
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,320
overseas. 
Now that was put down, they were

517
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,920
like, no stop, no, no, cut that,
cut that, cut that. 

518
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,080
So he he didn't get very. 
Far with that intervention. 

519
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:02,880
Intervention. 
Yeah. 

520
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,480
Yeah. 
All the things just don't do 

521
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:04,960
that. 
Yeah. 

522
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:13,000
And he may have gone around to 
various castles in Dorne to try 

523
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:18,000
to see their reaction to be 
like, hey, would you join me in 

524
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:18,960
this? 
Let's go. 

525
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,520
So in order to raise Doran, he's
got to go talk to Lourdes. 

526
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,720
Like we know he was trying to 
quote, quote, raise Doran, which

527
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,040
means he's going to try to fire 
them up, which probably means 

528
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,680
talking to them in person. 
So if he had gone to the hell 

529
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,040
hole at that point, there you 
go. 

530
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,360
He meets Elaria on this mini 
tour of important Dornish 

531
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:38,600
castles trying to get something 
going. 

532
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,680
So in fact, maybe that's maybe 
that's part of what slowed him 

533
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,840
down. 
He's like, actually, I would 

534
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,440
rather hang out with this woman 
than what was that? 

535
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,320
Why was I going to war in the 
1st place? 

536
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,680
Yeah, they clearly have a lot of
chemistry, but not just 

537
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:57,560
romantic, but sexually they over
in flaunts, their bisexuality, 

538
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,200
the threesomes they have and all
that. 

539
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,240
And he might be exaggerating a 
little bit, but I have no real 

540
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,400
reason to doubt him. 
You know, it's not like he's, 

541
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,160
it's like it's a political 
advantage for him to point that 

542
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,120
out. 
So it just seems like a thing. 

543
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,120
That's his reputations. 
And he talks about, yeah, why 

544
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:14,240
not, But it's not. 
It's not. 

545
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,040
It's not unbelievable at all. 
This this is very speculative, 

546
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,040
but my theory before that he 
might have, for the sake of 

547
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,000
perception, felt like he needed 
to marry or or pair with the 

548
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,640
Dornish woman when he's going 
around trying to get Lords on 

549
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,800
his side. 
So to raise up, which he might 

550
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,240
be fired up to fight if he was 
overseas fighting for some 

551
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,040
mercenary company and comes back
home and he's just like ready to

552
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,960
go to battle, like, hey, let's 
get a battle, let's go. 

553
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,760
But when he goes to talk to 
different Lords like, man, you 

554
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,880
haven't even been home. 
You've got kids with women from 

555
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,000
all around the world. 
We're not. 

556
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,960
You're not really a Dornish 
Prince. 

557
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,800
He might have faced a little bit
of that. 

558
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,720
He might have felt it would give
him more legitimacy to have 

559
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,640
Adornish woman be the mother of 
his children. 

560
00:28:53,800 --> 00:29:00,760
And if we keep in mind the whole
plot line, the focus of his plot

561
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,680
line, which is revenge for Ely. 
Of course, that's most front and

562
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,840
center in his mind here, 
returning from overseas to find 

563
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,640
out that his beloved sister, the
one that he was, quote UN quote,

564
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,760
inseparable from. 
That's his main reasoning here. 

565
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,240
So picture this. 
He's still in grief, but his 

566
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,080
grief mostly manifests his 
anger. 

567
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,480
He wants to get revenge. 
He wants to get back at the 

568
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,600
Lannisters in particular and 
mostly Tywin, but would happily 

569
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,240
take his vengeance on other 
Lannisters. 

570
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,920
So I guess their relationship 
began shortly after his return 

571
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,800
to Westeros. 
It wouldn't likely have started 

572
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,360
before, since he was overseas or
during, right? 

573
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:44,240
So Ilia was born not long after 
the death of Elia's sister, 

574
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,960
Elia. 
Elia Santa, I mean, was born not

575
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,360
long after, maybe only two to 
three years, so that also fits 

576
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,440
as a very likely time if their 
relationship began. 

577
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,160
And maybe Alaria encouraged the 
name Elia for their first child 

578
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,600
to help set her ghost to rest to
calm his need for vengeance. 

579
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,880
A bit didn't seem to work, but 
it's worth a try, and that may 

580
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,360
have been partly what kept them 
together. 

581
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,680
You have this connection. 
You have a child that you've 

582
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,360
named after your sister like 
that, someone that you loved and

583
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,040
were super close. 
The person that he was most 

584
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,400
close to in this world. 
And then Hilaria took the place 

585
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,080
of that became the person he was
closest to in this world until 

586
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,520
they were separated by his 
death. 

587
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,360
So he treated her as his 
basically like a wife. 

588
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,280
He treated her with respect and 
regard, not, not in the way that

589
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,360
you would maybe have expected, 
given the way he treated like 

590
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,760
Obara's mother, for example, or 
just how he treated people in 

591
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,880
general like he doesn't. 
Isn't someone that treats people

592
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,240
very well in his early life, and
maybe not so much in his later 

593
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,280
life either, but there seems to 
be some exceptions, and Alaria 

594
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:57,920
is #1 on that list. 
She can't replace Ilia, but she 

595
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,520
was the loving relationship that
he had never had with someone 

596
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:03,800
that wasn't. 
You know, I don't mean to. 

597
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,520
I don't mean to suggest, even 
though there is that joke in the

598
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,960
book where he's like, yeah, 
we're we're as close, I was as 

599
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,880
close to her as Jamie and Cersei
and Tyrion's like, well, I hope 

600
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,040
not. 
And his mind's like, yeah. 

601
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,480
And it's like some people take 
that as evidence like George 

602
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,600
tongue in cheek saying that they
were that close, that they were 

603
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,040
an incest couple. 
Which, I mean it's possible, but

604
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,480
there's really nothing to 
indicate that besides that this 

605
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,240
one sideways comment there. 
So I don't, I don't think so. 

606
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,480
Anyway, the point is, going from
this traumatizing loss to 

607
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,960
wanting to start a war, to 
finding the woman the perfect 

608
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,600
woman for him and naming their 
first child after that lost 

609
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,440
sister is all pretty moving, and
pretty comes in a short period 

610
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,080
of time, relatively speaking, so
it really seems strong as 

611
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,120
something to work as head 
cannon. 

612
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,920
I think Nina compares to Lauria 
to Jane Westerling. 

613
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,720
Rob emphasizes to Catelyn that 
he fell for Jane, in part 

614
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,840
because it came during a time of
deep devastation. 

615
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,280
He had just been wounded. 
He just found out that 

616
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,080
Winterfell was lost and Brandon 
Rickon were killed, which of 

617
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,640
course they weren't, but that's 
what he thought. 

618
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,240
And Santa had marrying Tyrion 
had come not long before that. 

619
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,920
So it was just blow after blow 
after blow. 

620
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,600
And in addition to actually 
being physically wounded, which 

621
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,960
isn't going to help, you know, 
you have an infection in your 

622
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,440
shoulder and all that, it's 
going to make everything feel 

623
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,120
even worse. 
So that is part of what started 

624
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,200
their relationship. 
And once it started it, it had 

625
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,280
that rooting in that beginning 
which was so emotional. 

626
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,040
It's always going to be a part 
of their relate. 

627
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,960
Well, it was always a part of 
their relationship. 

628
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,920
And it'll be with Jane until she
dies. 

629
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,240
And it'll be with Hilaria until 
she dies is there's never going 

630
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,720
to be a replication of those 
unique circumstances where they 

631
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,320
he was, he really needed 
someone. 

632
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,320
And then it became the perfect 
person for the rest of his life.

633
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,120
So I wonder how often they 
talked about it. 

634
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,360
Like, did they talk about Elia? 
I would guess so. 

635
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,000
Like you tend to talk about 
these things with your partner. 

636
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,760
And and of course, it was on his
mind constantly. 

637
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,800
It was like his life's work 
almost to achieve justice for 

638
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,720
Elia. 
So I'm sure it came up in their 

639
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,760
conversations but it doesn't 
necessarily mean he discussed 

640
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,840
his specific plans like oh I'm 
going to put poison on my spear 

641
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,960
and I'm going to become Tyrion's
champion. 

642
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,200
I don't know that she knew those
things, but we'll get to that 

643
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,160
when we get to that part of the 
story. 

644
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,960
It's an interesting question 
though whether or not she how 

645
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,560
close were like some men keep 
their their dirty secrets away 

646
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,400
from their their families or 
their wife but some are. 

647
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,200
It's just as much their secret. 
It's all it's, you know, it 

648
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,960
depends on the couple and and 
the family. 

649
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,600
That might have been part of 
their bond, or why she was so 

650
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,000
special and important to him. 
She you're wondering if he 

651
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,720
talked to her about Ilia. 
She might be the only person he 

652
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,600
talked to about Ilia. 
To everyone else, he's this 

653
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,240
badass warrior and he wants 
revenge and he's got the spear 

654
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,400
and may may talk poison, 
whatever else, but he doesn't 

655
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,680
reveal these inner sadnesses or 
whatever that he has, but he 

656
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,520
does to her. 
And that might have been the 

657
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,920
thing that really bonded them. 
Yeah. 

658
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,239
I mean I assume he talked about 
it with Doran but not like 

659
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,960
necessarily in a way that was 
you know deeply engaging and 

660
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,880
like they didn't cry together. 
You know I don't I it's hard to 

661
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,400
picture Princess of Dorne doing 
that the way their culture is. 

662
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,480
You know they probably probably 
would have been therapeutic for 

663
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,639
them. 
But I I don't I don't really 

664
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:30,520
guess that they did but with 
her, you know. 

665
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,120
Yeah he could let his guard down
maybe and then be a little more 

666
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,560
vulnerable. 
Something tells me he was still 

667
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,920
pretty rigid about it but less 
so. 

668
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,120
You know, he still might have 
had his moments where he let 

669
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,600
some genuine emotion out. 
And that wasn't anger. 

670
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,800
Not that anger isn't genuine, 
it's very genuine. 

671
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,960
But you see what I'm saying, 
That he might have been softer 

672
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,840
about it in some moments behind 
closed doors. 

673
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,440
And it Doran does have the 
social hierarchy, even though 

674
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,159
it's different than the rest of 
West. 

675
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,360
They still have, you know, let's
not fool ourselves. 

676
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,440
They still have haves and have 
nots. 

677
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,880
They still have elites and and 
people in poverty just 'cause 

678
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,040
their noble system is a little 
different and different from 

679
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,440
West Rose. 
Maybe it's a little closer to 

680
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,000
something we like. 
It's still pretty bad. 

681
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,120
It's still, you know, 
prioritizes the people at the 

682
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,560
top. 
The aristocrats can still get 

683
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,200
away with things. 
Quentin thinks that the drink 

684
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,360
water twins were too low born 
for him for example. 

685
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,560
And Quentin's a pretty good kid.
But this isn't you know, it's an

686
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,120
uncomfortable thought but he's 
he's not thinking that they're 

687
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,480
in terms of his ego. 
He's not saying, oh I'm too good

688
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,320
for them. 
He's just acknowledging the way 

689
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,400
these things work and their rank
is beneath a Prince and that's 

690
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,520
it's just a fact in his mind. 
It's not a it's like a judgement

691
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,320
call where he's like no, those 
drink waters, no, no, no. 

692
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:43,680
You know, he doesn't have that 
thought. 

693
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,760
It's just a it's like a matter 
of fact thing. 

694
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,080
And that is the big question. 
Why didn't they marry? 

695
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,760
Why didn't they? 
There's a lot of reasons though.

696
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,720
There's one right there. 
We mentioned a few others, which

697
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,600
is just he gets to keep them out
of politics or at least not out,

698
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,960
as a Shay pointed out accurately
doesn't keep them out of it. 

699
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,520
Clearly the Sand Snakes are 
involved, but it enables them to

700
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,040
keep more of a distance if they 
so choose, and give them a 

701
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,040
little more protection against 
being embroiled in schemes. 

702
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,920
Take Sorella, for example. 
Sorella's off doing her own 

703
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,080
thing and she's just left alone.
They're like, yeah, let her do 

704
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:15,920
what she wants. 
She's, you know, she's not here.

705
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,560
We can't mess with her and we 
don't really want to because 

706
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,520
she's not. 
She's not really being a problem

707
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,160
and keeping his hand open. 
Think about John Connington and 

708
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,080
the value of having the option 
to marry someone. 

709
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,880
He's like, oh, as long as his 
hand is available, as long as 

710
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,960
he's unmarried. 
It's something you can offer in 

711
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,520
a negotiation or to offer to an 
ally. 

712
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,120
So having that ability, even if 
you never intend to use it, just

713
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,800
having you showing that you can 
do it, has some value. 

714
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,520
Just similar to the concept of 
showing that people making 

715
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,880
people afraid of you, right. 
Even though you aren't 

716
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,480
necessarily that scary using 
that to your advantage. 

717
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,560
It's like, well, if you're not 
married, well, let's use that to

718
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,160
our advantage and say how we 
could, we could float that 

719
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,160
around and get people 
interested, get people coming at

720
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,000
us to make offers and keep them 
in our corner that way. 

721
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,560
Just short leash kind of thing. 
Depending on the position you 

722
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,840
get into, you keep it available 
or for other people to come to 

723
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,960
you with that proposal too. 
It's like a not not only is it a

724
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,360
tool for you, but it's a tool 
for others to come to you. 

725
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,000
Does that make sense? 
So yeah, yeah, that's a good. 

726
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,640
Point You eliminate a tool for 
yourself and other potential 

727
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,440
allies once you have been 
married, Unless you're 

728
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,920
Targaryen, you just get married 
again. 

729
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,840
Yeah, right. 
Or think about what Tywin did. 

730
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,000
Tywin was not willing to 
entertain any marriages for 

731
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,880
Cersei until the Rhaegar option 
was completely off the table. 

732
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,440
He's like, OK, now I got to do 
something else because I wanted 

733
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,360
the Prince, you know, and the 
heir to the throne. 

734
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,280
I couldn't get that. 
But he wasn't willing to settle 

735
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,280
for anything less than that. 
So yeah, Doran may have believed

736
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,720
that having Oberon available, 
you know, that gave them an 

737
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:55,440
option that would cause their 
enemies and their allies to 

738
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,160
treat them a little differently 
or at least to factor that in. 

739
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,440
So there was, there's also no 
need for him to marry. 

740
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,760
Like they don't obviously Doran 
has two sons and a daughter that

741
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,000
came before both of them. 
So 3 heirs. 

742
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,160
And since Doran women can 
inherit, you don't have to wait 

743
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,720
for a son. 
You just there's a kid. 

744
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,480
It doesn't matter what what 
their gender is as long as you 

745
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,080
know whoever's first born goes. 
That's that. 

746
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,800
So and and Olaria might not have
cared. 

747
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,280
She might not have wanted to get
all that embroiled. 

748
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,480
She might not have wanted to get
that deep into it. 

749
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,360
She may prefer to keep things at
arms length. 

750
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,840
And she certainly wasn't raised 
to expect to marry a big name 

751
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,600
that wasn't in like Sansa was or
like Cersei was. 

752
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:37,600
Right. 
They expected it. 

753
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:38,720
Laurie never would have 
expected. 

754
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:40,480
That I just want to point out 
the humor there. 

755
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,080
It's a it's a step in the right 
direction to let any child 

756
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,160
inherit, and it doesn't have to 
be the oldest son, but there's 

757
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,200
still a little humor to like 
well, there's a kid any kid will

758
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,120
do like. 
Be a kid. 

759
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,800
It should be. 
Inheritance in the 1st place, If

760
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,720
it is gonna be at least women 
should be allowed to do it, but 

761
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:06,400
geez, what a silly. 
Yeah, so again, lots of reasons 

762
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,040
there and we don't know which 
one it is, but it's not strange 

763
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,000
even though we don't know the 
reasons because there are so 

764
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,120
many available reasons that it 
could be, and it might be 

765
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,880
several of those reasons she 
becomes a bit of a peaceful 

766
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:19,960
weapon. 
That's what I've called this 

767
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,920
next section because it's like 
the concept of Aikido, the 

768
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,400
martial art Aikido is using is 
is built around using your 

769
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,880
enemies weaknesses against them.
They try to punch you and you 

770
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,720
move out of the way and they 
punch the wall or you. 

771
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:39,040
They they get all over balance 
reaching for you. 

772
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,120
And then it's just that you can 
slightly push them and they fall

773
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,600
over, right? 
It's using their weaknesses 

774
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,680
against them or using their 
anger against them. 

775
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,440
In this case, their momentum 
against them. 

776
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:53,560
Yeah, in this case nobles are so
just uppity and Snooty about 

777
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,760
bastards. 
It gave the Dornish an 

778
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,520
opportunity to rub their faces 
in it and say, ha ha, we can you

779
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,800
have this weakness and we're 
going to exploit that. 

780
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,160
If you're deeply offended or 
made uncomfortable by something,

781
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,280
your enemies will take note of 
that and use it. 

782
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,640
I was like, let's make them 
deeply uncomfortable, and so 

783
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,040
they did that by bringing Ilaria
Sand. 

784
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,640
Let's look at the brilliant 
scene which is Ilaria's first 

785
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,960
appearance, which comes a few 
paragraphs after Oberyn's first 

786
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,360
appearance quote. 
He raised a slender hand toward 

787
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,760
a black haired woman to the 
rear, beckoning her forward. 

788
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,080
And this is Alaria Sand mine own
Paramore. 

789
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:37,480
Tyrion swallowed a groan. 
His Paramore and bastard born 

790
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,520
Cersei will pitch a holy fit if 
he wants her at the wedding. 

791
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,040
If she consigned the woman to 
some dark corner below the salt,

792
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,160
his sister would risk the Red 
Viper's wrath. 

793
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:54,360
Seat her beside him at the high 
table, and every other lady on 

794
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,480
the dais was like to take 
offence. 

795
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,600
Did Prince Doran mean to provoke
a quarrel? 

796
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,840
Yes. 
The answer is yes. 

797
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,000
There's a zero chance they 
didn't realize that they would 

798
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,880
have this reaction. 
They're like, oh, they're going 

799
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,400
to be so up. 
Like what? 

800
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,480
They're going to be so 
discomfited and so thrown off 

801
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,840
like Tyrion swallow groan. 
They're going to. 

802
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,400
He's like, they're going to 
swallow groans, Yeah, this is 

803
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,000
exactly what's going to happen. 
They saw it coming a mile away. 

804
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,680
Cause a distraction, cause 
discomfort, anything, whatever. 

805
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,080
It's just all the the tropes of 
and expectations of Dornish men 

806
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,280
over and is doubling down on his
public display. 

807
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,920
He's like, they're going to 
expect the Dornish culture to 

808
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,560
make them uncomfortable. 
We're going to go full Dornish 

809
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,680
and just really throw it in 
their faces and they're. 

810
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,000
Going to have to deal with us. 
They're going to have to deal 

811
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,680
with this in ways that they 
don't like. 

812
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,040
You're right off the bat, you 
know. 

813
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,680
Like, Tyrion was expecting 
Doran. 

814
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,680
Like, wait, there's no litter. 
And like, uh oh, it's like, 

815
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,520
yeah, you've got me to deal 
with, but it's not just me. 

816
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,120
It's my paramour who's going to 
cause problems. 

817
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,080
Not directly. 
She's not going to do anything, 

818
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,080
but just being there is going to
piss off a lot of people, you 

819
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,240
know. 
And he presses the and and over 

820
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:07,000
and back foots them immediately.
He's he's. 

821
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,160
You can see how planned this is 
because he, rather than being 

822
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,360
like oh I'm sorry to be causing 
this disturbance, he goes on the

823
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,720
offensive presses the issue by 
pointing out how more 

824
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:22,480
distinguished his group is 
despite containing this bastard 

825
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,000
Paramore. 
He brought a bunch of Lords with

826
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,520
him, whereas Tyrion did not. 
And Oberyn makes a show of it 

827
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,080
right here. 
Quote. 

828
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,800
Prince Oberyn wheeled his horse 
about to face his fellow Dornish

829
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,440
men. 
Alaria, Lords and Ladies SERS, 

830
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,600
see how well King Joffrey loves 
us. 

831
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,600
His Grace has been so kind as to
send his own Uncle Imp to bring 

832
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,960
us to his court. 
The imp is not a friendly 

833
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,120
nickname. 
That's not like his accepted 

834
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,880
nickname. 
That is an insulting nickname 

835
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,440
that people get away with 
calling to him because, well, 

836
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,520
he's, I mean, it's court. 
You try to you're you're 

837
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,360
supposed to not react to things 
like that. 

838
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,880
Tyrion does a few times react to
it because he loses his temper, 

839
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,640
but this time he's on his He 
knows ahead of time to be on his

840
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,440
best behavior, and he's like 
choking it all back. 

841
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Tyrion also can't like challenge
someone to a duel, and his 

842
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,000
father and the sister aren't 
going to back him up either, you

843
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,200
know? 
So it's it is. 

844
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,880
It's so unfair for him as he 
moves through life to have to 

845
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,800
deal with that. 
But yeah, I agree. 

846
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,640
And Oberyn knows this. 
He knows he can get away with 

847
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,040
it, not just because Tyrion has 
these things that he has to 

848
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,680
worry about, but Oberyn himself 
is a Prince. 

849
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:33,720
And he's like, well, I'm a 
Prince. 

850
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:37,800
I outrank everyone here and I 
will say what I want and I will 

851
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,760
get away with it. 
But he's also making sure 

852
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:40,960
everyone understands what's 
happening. 

853
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,880
He's making a public display. 
He's like, look how look who 

854
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,880
they sent. 
Look how much they respect us, 

855
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,240
you know? 
So he's like, like I said, back 

856
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:52,160
footing them, putting them on 
the defensive while he's 

857
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,600
thrusting on them. 
What he knows is going to make 

858
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,640
them uncomfortable regarding his
his paramour. 

859
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,640
And and as you said, they 
thought Doran was coming, which 

860
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,480
means it should have been an 
even more regal reception, 

861
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,400
right? 
So like, maybe if they knew it 

862
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,440
was Oberon, they can get away 
without the king himself or or a

863
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,640
certain presence of royalty. 
But they didn't know it was 

864
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:18,680
Oberon. 
They thought it was Doran. 

865
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:20,680
And yet still this was the 
reception. 

866
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,520
So it's even worse. 
Yeah. 

867
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,040
Good said. 
So next it comes off in this in 

868
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,520
the scene Tyrion rattles off all
the names, which we don't need 

869
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,240
to go through. 
But then he thinks to himself. 

870
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,800
Quote. 
The names had a nice ringing 

871
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,880
sound as Tyrion reeled them off,
but the bearers were no eyes 

872
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,320
near as distinguished, nor 
formidable accompany as those 

873
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,640
who accompanied Prince Oberyn, 
as both of them knew full well. 

874
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,680
Yeah, it was. 
It was unspoken but obvious 

875
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,640
between them both. 
And so, yeah, again, it's pretty

876
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,240
hard not to see this as 
extremely intentional on their 

877
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,880
part. 
Doran and Ober knew exactly what

878
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,320
they were doing. 
They had a meeting about it. 

879
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:58,920
They're like, all right, this is
what we're going to do. 

880
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,080
This is probably what's going 
to. 

881
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,680
And if they don't send out a a a
big enough welcoming party, I'm 

882
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,080
going to do this or something 
like that. 

883
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,200
You know, they may have, they 
may have planned it in great 

884
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,280
detail. 
And yeah, and so they played 

885
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,880
right into the Martel hands by 
being petty like they were, the 

886
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,080
Martels were maybe almost hoping
for this, to give them more 

887
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:22,200
excuse to, to push the envelope,
to use diplomacy as a weapon, 

888
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:23,680
say, look, you guys weren't 
diplomatic. 

889
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,960
We're going to hold that against
you in addition to their 

890
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,120
existing grievances, which are 
quite a bit larger, but still. 

891
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:31,640
Yeah. 
So you're right, Sean. 

892
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,360
If they had sent a larger party,
like a more distinguished party,

893
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,120
Oberyn would have, it would have
been harder for him to complain.

894
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:37,760
He wouldn't. 
He wouldn't. 

895
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,880
He wouldn't have been able to 
grandstand the way he did. 

896
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,920
Or maybe he would have found 
something to say, but it 

897
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,120
wouldn't have had the weight 
that this did. 

898
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,520
On some level, if they had sent 
a more distinguished party, 

899
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,280
Oberon is so it's seemingly hell
bent on revenge. 

900
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,040
It might not have worked, but on
some level that's the respect 

901
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,240
they're looking for, right? 
It it's sort of like a win. 

902
00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:59,960
Win should be sort of a win win.
If they don't send a respectable

903
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:01,640
party, we get to put it, throw 
it in the face. 

904
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,680
If they do like Oh well, that's 
what we want in the 1st place. 

905
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,840
Good start, you know. 
But it was not a good start. 

906
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,360
No, it was not a good start. 
So if Doran and Oberon talked 

907
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,520
about all this, which again, I 
very much assume they did, how 

908
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,200
much was Alaria included in this
discussion? 

909
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,120
I assume maybe indirectly, maybe
not in the same room with them, 

910
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,880
maybe over and Phil's are in 
afterwards, but maybe directly. 

911
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,240
OK, here's what's going to 
happen. 

912
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,160
They're going to be off put by 
your presence. 

913
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,120
They're going to call you 
bastard, They're going to 

914
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,800
snigger. 
They're going to give you dirty 

915
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,000
looks. 
Are you prepared for this? 

916
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,560
Are you ready to be treated like
that? 

917
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,600
I assume it wasn't just they 
threw her into it and expected 

918
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,480
her to just swim without any 
training. 

919
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,760
And I assume they expected she'd
be good at it because of her. 

920
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,320
They had known her a long time. 
Oberyn has been with her for 14 

921
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,680
years at this point. 
He knows her worth and and she 

922
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,160
knows his. 
So I think she was in on it, 

923
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,880
pretty aware of everything and 
and if not, she's smart enough 

924
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,480
to understand it, but I assume 
she knew, they told her. 

925
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,160
That way she could play it up, 
you know, she can make it even 

926
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,200
more so. 
If they didn't include her, I 

927
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,640
think it would have been because
they didn't need to. 

928
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,120
They knew how she would behave 
and it's what they wanted in the

929
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,800
1st place, you know? 
That doesn't mean they couldn't 

930
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,720
still have included. 
Her, right, Right. 

931
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,760
Like if she's going to be 
visibly uncomfortable, it's not 

932
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,320
going to work as well. 
They don't want like this isn't 

933
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,920
going to have the effect. 
They want her to her. 

934
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,960
They want her being proud. 
They want her not to be looking 

935
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,160
ashamed because that throws them
off even more. 

936
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,080
Like she should be ashamed to be
amongst us. 

937
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,480
She's so lower ranking. 
But when the more confident she 

938
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,320
is amongst people that she's 
supposedly lower than the worse 

939
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,240
it makes them look and I think 
they knew that would happen too.

940
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:41,480
So it's like, yeah, this is 
perfect. 

941
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,960
So if she was the kind of person
that couldn't handle that, the 

942
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,200
kind of person that might just 
run crying from the hall because

943
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,080
she can't handle the social 
pressure, well, they wouldn't 

944
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:50,520
put her in that position in the 
1st place. 

945
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,880
Because it wouldn't not, not 
necessarily be nice, although 

946
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,880
that would be part of it. 
But because it wouldn't work, it

947
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,320
wouldn't show up. 
The Lannisters and and others 

948
00:47:57,720 --> 00:47:59,520
the way they want. 
They want to throw this in their

949
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,080
faces. 
And that's not going to work if 

950
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,400
Ilaria just can't take the heat.
But clearly she can. 

951
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,640
Either she can take it, or maybe
even better. 

952
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,360
It genuinely doesn't bother her.
That's entirely possible that 

953
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,840
she's just so above it that 
she's like, yeah, throw me in 

954
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,680
there. 
I'm ready to make fools of these

955
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,200
suckas. 
You know, I'm ready to to teach.

956
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,160
Bring these folks down a peg. 
She might relish it. 

957
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,320
You never know. 
She might have stayed for a 

958
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,280
while at court, too. 
This is a great point by Nina. 

959
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:24,760
The intent was for him to be 
there. 

960
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,960
He was supposed to take the 
small council seat offered to 

961
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,400
Doran. 
It was going to be his instead, 

962
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,720
which in turn is now being 
offered to wait which one? 

963
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:34,840
Nymeria or Tain? 
I forget which of them is 

964
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,920
getting it, but it's still going
being passed down to another 

965
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,920
Martel family member. 
So that's important because 

966
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,160
Oberyn would have stayed in 
King's Landing for quite a while

967
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,280
given the original arrangement 
if he hadn't been killed in the 

968
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,000
duel, which means Ilaria would 
have two. 

969
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,200
So this thing was would have 
been a long term thing of them 

970
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,560
constantly poking at people with
her presence and being able to 

971
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,880
use their snobbishness against 
them. 

972
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,840
That would have been a long term
plan had things not gone the way

973
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,080
they did. 
And also she could have maybe 

974
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,800
talked to some people and and 
navigated certain social 

975
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,080
situations that a a regular 
noble couldn't have. 

976
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,840
You know, go places and talk to 
certain people like these. 

977
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,200
Probably these problems cut both
ways. 

978
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,160
Like I can't be seen talking to 
a certain person. 

979
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,000
I'm the lady of of whatever 
house you know, like it would be

980
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,240
been unseemly for me to be, but 
not for a Lauria Sant. 

981
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,520
So she might have a little more 
let's say roaming space to do 

982
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,000
things that might have been the 
plan. 

983
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,800
Who knows? 
Either way, it reminds us of 

984
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,520
why. 
Gives us a good insight into why

985
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:35,960
Auburn was attracted to her in 
the 1st place. 

986
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,840
She has all this confidence and 
poise and and she's not. 

987
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,840
She's not intimidated by being 
the face of a giant trolling 

988
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,280
expedition against House 
Lannister. 

989
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,560
You know, that's a pretty 
intimidating thing to do. 

990
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,560
But she seemed to just I'm. 
I'm all for. 

991
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,040
It this is probably too 
tangential to get into very 

992
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,240
deep, but I wonder how that 
might have played out given the 

993
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:58,600
actions of the High Sparrow when
he's arresting Cersei and 

994
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,480
Marjorie for their, you know, 
moral indiscretions of whatever 

995
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,960
would have. 
Would Oberon or Ilaria have been

996
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,120
arrested too? 
It might have been even more 

997
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,880
complicated and. 
Probably. 

998
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,440
Eventually violent, you know. 
It's a very good point. 

999
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:14,600
Yeah, that that would have not 
have. 

1000
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,040
That would have been oil and 
water mixing right there. 

1001
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,840
Compare Ilaria to our good 
friend Jon Snow. 

1002
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,600
It was easy enough for the 
Starks to seat Jon in the rear 

1003
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,720
of the hall during his very 
first chapter, during the feast 

1004
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:28,880
for the royal family at 
Winterfell. 

1005
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,080
The same Lannisters and 
Baratheons, in this case. 

1006
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,840
They can't separate the Prince 
from his partner. 

1007
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,440
That's just you can't really do 
that. 

1008
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,560
Like, no, your partner's going 
to sit over here and you sit 

1009
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:40,760
here. 
That's just, it's weird. 

1010
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,240
But Jon Snow, they just yeah, 
just stick him in the back. 

1011
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,440
Who cares? 
No, like only, like, as far as 

1012
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,080
Catelyn's concerned, who cares, 
right? 

1013
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,960
And and Ned's not going to make 
a He's not going to complain 

1014
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,440
about that. 
And even Jon himself, he was a 

1015
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,520
little bothered by it, but he 
took it in stride pretty well. 

1016
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,520
Remember, he got drunk, which he
said I wouldn't be able to get 

1017
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,840
drunk if I was up there. 
But he was. 

1018
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:01,560
He was. 
He was miffed, for sure. 

1019
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,080
Or think of Sansa masquerading 
as Elaine Stone. 

1020
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,960
She couldn't sit at the dais 
while in disguise because they 

1021
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,640
wouldn't be seemly as 
Littlefinger's bastard daughter,

1022
00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:15,040
but if she were truly open as 
Sansa Stark, then that would be 

1023
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,320
the obvious place for her. 
So we see this sort of example 

1024
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,600
in multiple places. 
I think it's pretty well 

1025
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,000
attested to. 
And these rules, right? 

1026
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,720
These unspoken, unwritten rule, 
they're spoken, unwritten rules,

1027
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:30,440
They're very much spoken. 
But sometimes they're spoken 

1028
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,320
very bluntly. 
So it's neat that in both cases,

1029
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,640
Cersei is at the center of 
concerns here, the one who's 

1030
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,440
they're most worried about 
offending or most excited about 

1031
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,040
offending. 
In the case of the with John, 

1032
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,080
they're like, oh, we don't want 
to offend her with with the 

1033
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,560
lawyer, like, yeah, let's offend
her. 

1034
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:49,440
So of course, Cersei is not the 
only outspoken person at court 

1035
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,600
quote. 
He had settled Prince Oberon and

1036
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,720
his Lords in a corner Fort, 
facing the city as far from the 

1037
00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:59,840
Tyrells as he could put them 
without evicting them from the 

1038
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,480
Red Keep entirely. 
It was not nearly far enough. 

1039
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,000
Already there had been a brawl 
in a Flea Bottom pot shop that 

1040
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,520
left one Tyrell man at arms dead
and two of Lord Gargoland 

1041
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,800
scalded, and an ugly 
confrontation in the yard when 

1042
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:22,320
Mace Tyrell's wizened little 
mother called Hilarious Sand the

1043
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,040
Serpent's Whore. 
I mean, damn right like that's. 

1044
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,760
Yeah. 
I mean, we know Lena talks a lot

1045
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,920
and she says what's on her mind,
but that's even for her. 

1046
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,720
That seems pretty blunt and and 
nasty. 

1047
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,400
So she's saying that to diminish
her because of course, in 

1048
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,240
Westeros, a sex worker is at the
bottom of the social ladder. 

1049
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,120
So she's trying to compare her 
to that and say that's where you

1050
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:52,320
belong, you, that's how you know
you appear in this company as 

1051
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,040
someone who doesn't belong. 
So she's trying to emphasize and

1052
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,120
exaggerate that by saying that. 
She also probably is doing a 

1053
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,400
little bit of win in Rome. 
Do as Romans do. 

1054
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,120
She's got to seem like she's on 
Cersei's side if she wants to 

1055
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,760
get what she wants out of 
Cersei, so. 

1056
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,720
That's a good point. 
That's a good point. 

1057
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:10,440
I think she probably feels it 
somewhat earnestly as well, 

1058
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:12,760
because she doesn't like the 
Tyrell. 

1059
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:14,720
I mean she doesn't like the the 
the Dornishman. 

1060
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:19,800
She's in old school reachman 
reach woman and doesn't yeah 

1061
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:21,960
doesn't like the Martel's 
doesn't like what happened what 

1062
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,120
Oberyn did to Willis even though
you know even though she may be 

1063
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,960
is aware that it wasn't on 
purpose because she also makes a

1064
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,520
comment about Willis going into 
jousting too soon. 

1065
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,440
So it's almost it was an actual 
agreement with Oberyn, but it 

1066
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,400
was sort of like you could take 
it as tacit. 

1067
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,040
Like, yeah, Mace was a fool for 
putting him into jousting too 

1068
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:42,400
soon. 
He wasn't that kind of boy in 

1069
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:43,320
the 1st place. 
He's not. 

1070
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,000
He wasn't Loris. 
Loris, go ahead, he's that 

1071
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,800
talented. 
But Willis isn't that kind of 

1072
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,600
kid. 
So in in certain companies she 

1073
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,040
might make that admission, but 
she knows the party line, if you

1074
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,840
will. 
We don't like the Martells 

1075
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,280
because of what Oberon did. 
You know, she's, that's the 

1076
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,560
public stance she's going to 
take, yeah. 

1077
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,640
And she might be trying to 
provoke a reaction too. 

1078
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,400
And she knows that the Tyrells 
have like a full army at court, 

1079
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,640
whereas the the Martel's brought
like 300 men. 

1080
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,640
So it's not. 
I mean, Tyrion points that out 

1081
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,160
too, and and Oberyn is not 
bothered by it, but it's not 

1082
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,040
irrelevant. 
She probably also knows Oberon's

1083
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,160
really there for Tywin and 
Gregor, right? 

1084
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:21,480
That's what he's really scared 
for. 

1085
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,960
And so if she can get him riled 
up, right, even if he's mad at 

1086
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,720
her, that anger will still be 
devoted to the Lannisters, which

1087
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:33,680
is good for her. 
Like almost every angle, whether

1088
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,560
it was personal or calculated, 
it was. 

1089
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,040
It was a good play for her to 
say that in a way that would get

1090
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,560
back to them and she. 
Recognizes that they're making. 

1091
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,680
She's smart to know that they're
making a provocation. 

1092
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,800
So she's like well I'm going to 
provoke them right back. 

1093
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,560
You know like well we two can 
play at this game. 

1094
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,120
You know she's she's obviously 
on top of the subtleties of 

1095
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,840
diplomacy and even though she's 
not very subtle herself she 

1096
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:57,600
understands it quite well. 
So. 

1097
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,560
So this provides us such a 
window into different forms of 

1098
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,560
prejudice. 
This, this section is called a 

1099
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,320
window to prejudice. 
Hilarious Time at Court reveals 

1100
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,920
a lot of how mainstream Westeros
he looked down on Dornish. 

1101
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,000
Like, specifically. 
We know that they have these 

1102
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,240
prejudices, but it really comes 
out with her because they're 

1103
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:13,880
against women, they're against 
bastards, they're against 

1104
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,000
Dornish women. 
So it's a triple threat here. 

1105
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,960
This quote from Sansa was 
absolutely full of that sort of 

1106
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,040
learned prejudice and other 
revealing things. 

1107
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,040
For example, quote. 
Shea had told her that this 

1108
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,840
alaria worshipped some lysine 
love goddess. 

1109
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,640
She was almost a whore when he 
found her milady, her maid 

1110
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,480
confided, and now she's near a 
Princess. 

1111
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,840
Sansa had never been this close 
to the Dornish woman before. 

1112
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:47,200
She's not truly beautiful, she 
thought, but something about her

1113
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,920
draws the eye. 
Now that is a very telling 

1114
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,000
sentence from Sansa, isn't it? 
Is that like, well, I've been 

1115
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:57,400
taught what beautiful is, but I 
think she's attractive. 

1116
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,560
So she's kind of at odds with 
what she's been taught. 

1117
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:03,080
Traditional beauty is like 
standard Westerosi beauty 

1118
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,320
standards, which is not the same
as Dornish beauty standards. 

1119
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,120
So she's still kind of like, yet
I still like, you know, so she's

1120
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,000
wrestling with that, I think 
internally and that's that's 

1121
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,000
kind of interesting. 
So you have several different 

1122
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,800
opinions here. 
You have Sansa's opinion, your 

1123
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,680
Shay's opinion, and you have 
what both of them have been 

1124
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,840
taught and they've been taught 
very differently because they 

1125
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:22,880
come from extreme opposite ends 
of society. 

1126
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,320
We just talked about how sex 
workers are at the bottom, 

1127
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,680
Santa's near the top, right? 
And so you have a conversation 

1128
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,360
between these two types of 
people, which is a rare thing. 

1129
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:37,040
And you see this. 
It's like it's gossip in a 

1130
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:37,480
nutshell. 
Here. 

1131
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,160
Now it is gossip. 
And remember why Shay's even 

1132
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,560
there in the 1st place, she's 
been hidden as a maid, right? 

1133
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:48,280
She's masquerading as a one of 
the maids because Tyrion's 

1134
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,040
trying to keep her, was afraid 
of keeping her in the manse and 

1135
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,360
all that. 
Anyway, Shay is not as young as 

1136
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:54,680
Sansa. 
It's important to keep in mind 

1137
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,480
that she is very young though. 
They're probably both teenagers.

1138
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,440
Shay might be like 20, but I 
think I think she's 18 when we 

1139
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,840
first meet her, so I don't think
it's been a full 2 years till we

1140
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:04,640
get to the scene. 
It's so it's very interesting 

1141
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,120
that Shay is disparaging 
hilarious social status by 

1142
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,120
saying she was almost a whore, 
given that was Shay's 

1143
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,400
profession. 
And even more ironic because 

1144
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,320
Shay is, this is what Shay 
wanted from Tyrion. 

1145
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,120
She's like I wanted to be almost
a Princess that was brought up 

1146
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,480
from being a sex worker. 
She asked Tyrion. 

1147
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:20,840
He's like, I could be your lady.
I don't have to be. 

1148
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,200
I don't want to marry you but 
you could give me jewels and all

1149
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,720
this other stuff and I could be 
by your side like she was that 

1150
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,000
so this is she's projecting a 
little bit here that Elaria got 

1151
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:30,680
the thing that she wanted. 
I think. 

1152
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:32,680
I think there's a little of that
a little bit of jealousy here 

1153
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,560
but she's just wrong. 
Elaria was probably not ever 

1154
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,440
almost a whore like that doesn't
We just went through talking 

1155
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,920
about earlier how her elder 
father almost certainly raised 

1156
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,040
her and yeah, so there's no 
almost there at all. 

1157
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,040
I don't that's that's just pure 
gossip, I think. 

1158
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,680
Or maybe it's because of things 
like what Olenna said, You know,

1159
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,040
maybe it came from that, like 
the telephone game. 

1160
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,920
She calls her the serpent's 
whore. 

1161
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,600
Someone else just repeats it a 
little differently. 

1162
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,400
By the time 10 people have 
repeated, it's just, yeah, she 

1163
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,000
was a sex worker in Dorne, you 
know? 

1164
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,120
And you know, not just Olenna, 
but Cersei and every other lady 

1165
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:08,040
would all want to denigrate 
Olaria. 

1166
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:13,040
Yeah, and she is getting in that
perception and and maybe herself

1167
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,120
wants to denigrate her, right? 
Because she doesn't want to 

1168
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,400
think that she did better than 
me, you know, so. 

1169
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:22,080
Yeah. 
And as well, Oberyn's first 

1170
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,480
child was with a sex worker. 
So maybe, like, people are 

1171
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,680
mashing up the different stories
about him and conflating, like, 

1172
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:30,280
that's who he likes or 
something, that's who he goes 

1173
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,240
after is sex workers. 
I don't know. 

1174
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:33,560
Yeah. 
So there's all this, these 

1175
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,640
stories about him that that will
leak into what people will think

1176
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,600
about her because he's the big 
prominent figure. 

1177
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:43,880
So it's very sad for Shay that 
she's projecting like this. 

1178
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,480
And her upbringing was was 
terrible. 

1179
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:51,280
I mean she was beaten and and 
raped by her own father, whereas

1180
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,720
there's no indication that 
Laurie had any of that. 

1181
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,360
So it's understandable that Shay
has this because she's 

1182
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:01,320
traumatized and she would want 
to rise higher in in this world 

1183
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,160
no matter what. 
And to be so close to that and 

1184
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,960
not get it is probably pretty 
torturous, especially given what

1185
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,320
ends up happening to her later. 
Ilaria didn't necessarily have a

1186
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,440
lot of career options, but she 
didn't have. 

1187
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,280
She wasn't at risk of of being 
like in the gutter like Shay 

1188
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:19,600
was. 
That is another thing too, 

1189
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,000
probably in, I don't know, 
mainland Westeros. 

1190
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,520
Most bastard born girls are 
probably destined to be sex 

1191
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,080
workers. 
It might be a semi safe 

1192
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,960
assumption that she was if they 
don't understand the difference 

1193
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:32,560
in Dornish culture, you know. 
Yeah, maybe. 

1194
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,440
Maybe. 
Now we know that that's pretty 

1195
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,280
rare for noble bastard girls to 
have that be their only option, 

1196
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,200
because there's plenty of you 
know, they often find they often

1197
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:45,120
get married to Knights or people
of still very high social 

1198
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,760
status, but not as high as a 
trueborn child would get from a 

1199
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,480
noble family. 
Like if if Shay only knows her 

1200
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,440
name is Alaria Sand, she might 
not know that she's from the 

1201
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:55,360
Oller house. 
So. 

1202
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:56,880
Yes, absolutely. 
You're right. 

1203
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:57,960
And they. 
And again, like you said, 

1204
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,520
there's all this confusion and 
prejudice about Dornish bastards

1205
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:05,240
versus other bastards. 
So Santa almost certainly had an

1206
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:06,640
even better education than 
Alaria. 

1207
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,520
But. 
Not by as wide a margin as 

1208
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,000
Ilaria had over Shay. 
Shay's education was almost 

1209
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,000
nonexistent. 
Shay's education was all, you 

1210
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,320
know, in the streets, like 
learning by being out there and 

1211
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,840
interacting with people. 
Like she wasn't in classrooms or

1212
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,480
didn't have teachers, etcetera. 
You could argue that Shay knows 

1213
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,720
more about the world than Santa 
in. 

1214
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,200
Some ways she. 
Talked about like, you know, 

1215
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:31,040
history or elite politics, But 
Shay probably knows more about 

1216
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,680
the how to make it through the 
world as a normal human. 

1217
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,520
Especially at this point, 
because Santa's biggest moments 

1218
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,440
of growth seem to come after she
gets away. 

1219
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,120
She starts to have. 
I mean, she has some pretty big 

1220
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:46,080
ones, but most of her growth 
really starts when she gets away

1221
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:47,720
from the Red Keep. 
Even though she's still under 

1222
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,640
Littlefinger's thumb. 
She has more room to be herself 

1223
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,640
and learn and think and and 
reflect on the Red Keep and and 

1224
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,480
things that happened before and 
and maybe do some things a 

1225
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,560
little differently. 
The lysine love goddess thing is

1226
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,920
another bit of just prejudice 
ish type thing here. 

1227
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:08,080
Presumably Shay was gossiping 
with other maids and that's how 

1228
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,640
they the news of what's in her 
chambers comes out like they're 

1229
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,080
going to go clean her chambers. 
That's not where Shay would be, 

1230
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,880
because Shay is assigned to 
lawless Stokeworth, right? 

1231
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,520
So nothing to do with these 
Dornish guests as but again, all

1232
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:24,720
the servants probably talk to 
each other and they would talk 

1233
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:28,560
about something in her chambers 
they found that would indicate 

1234
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,080
she worships some lysine love 
guys. 

1235
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:32,920
Now, they could have gotten that
wrong, though there's nothing to

1236
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,000
corroborate the story. 
You don't see anything of it 

1237
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,440
later, but there's nothing. 
It's not like a negative thing. 

1238
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,200
There's nothing to. 
I don't doubt it. 

1239
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:42,000
I just question whether they got
the details right. 

1240
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,320
Maybe it wasn't lysine, maybe 
it's not love goddess. 

1241
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,400
What type of love are we talking
about here? 

1242
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,040
All forms of love? 
Or is it like a God of a sex 

1243
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,880
goddess, or like a romantic love
goddess? 

1244
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:57,200
Or, you know, familial love for 
your children or your family? 

1245
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:58,480
Like, there's lots of types of 
love. 

1246
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,080
Y'all so. 
I'm kind of just picturing that 

1247
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,120
Hilaria had some kind of horny 
statue and. 

1248
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:05,240
Maybe she's had a dildo and 
they're like, that's a lysine 

1249
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,400
love goddess. 
That's hilarious. 

1250
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,560
They've never seen one before. 
You know what is that? 

1251
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:13,200
That's. 
What they call it these days. 

1252
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,200
It's called a Lysine love 
goddess. 

1253
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:23,280
They hand me the LLG here. 
But no, I could see her having 

1254
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,400
one of those, like, you know, 
little nude statuettes or 

1255
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,640
something like decorating her 
room and then they think she 

1256
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:31,280
worships it and she doesn't even
worship it. 

1257
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:33,800
She just likes it or something. 
Yeah, it might not. 

1258
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,760
Yeah, we do hit see her praying 
at another point, but it's just 

1259
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:38,080
like she's whispering a prayer 
to herself. 

1260
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,560
Like you can't really glean 
anything from it, so. 

1261
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,640
Even if she did worship it and 
it was more innocent, you know 

1262
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,520
it was love between mother or 
daughter or something like that.

1263
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:49,680
It's still not one of the seven.
You can still why it would be 

1264
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,120
like a hot topic. 
Exactly, Yeah. 

1265
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:53,400
It's a weird. 
Religion, you know. 

1266
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:54,560
Right. 
Yeah, it's again. 

1267
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,160
So that's why I'm putting into 
this section about prejudice, 

1268
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,320
like all this weird foreign God 
she's worshipping. 

1269
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,640
It's like, well, what if this, 
like this God might be like a 

1270
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:06,280
good, like a a good suggestion, 
like what this God stands for 

1271
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:07,640
might be kind of a positive 
thing. 

1272
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:09,800
But it's not the seven. 
So no, no, no. 

1273
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,480
And that just makes her all the 
more reason to gossip about her,

1274
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,720
save all these things, to gossip
about how she's Dornish, how 

1275
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,920
she's a Paramore, how whatever 
her past is, how she worships 

1276
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,520
these strange gods. 
Just so many things to gossip 

1277
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:22,760
about. 
That's why, again, it just comes

1278
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,880
back to you got to be tough. 
You got to be tough minded, to 

1279
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:30,400
be the object of all this gossip
at court where people aren't too

1280
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,520
shy about. 
They're not going to like, make 

1281
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,160
sure you don't hear. 
They kind of will inflict it on 

1282
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,960
you willingly, you know, like 
intentionally let you hear, 

1283
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,440
like, whisper loudly, you know, 
like that kind of thing. 

1284
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:45,000
They're not keeping it under 
wraps. 

1285
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,360
Like you have Olenna calling her
the serpent's whore and things 

1286
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,320
like that. 
This is not, this isn't super 

1287
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:57,560
subtle here So and again Sansa's
especially someone who's very 

1288
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,880
young hasn't learned that, oh, 
everything isn't just what 

1289
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,120
you've been taught or oh, the 
people worship other gods in 

1290
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,120
this world. 
Sansa, it's not that strange. 

1291
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:07,840
Shay two, you know it's not that
strange. 

1292
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:12,200
It doesn't mean bad things, but 
she's a young teenager and is 

1293
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,440
very sheltered. 
Still, her naivete is only 

1294
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:16,760
starting to come off at this 
point. 

1295
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,880
So it's very possible, though, 
like Nina says, yeah, it's 

1296
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:23,600
absolutely possible. 
This is true. 

1297
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,320
Maybe it's not lysine, maybe 
it's just some other foreign God

1298
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,840
that they just misidentified. 
But either way, like, it's not 

1299
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,280
weird. 
It's not abnormal, not it's not 

1300
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,480
scandalous, but it is. 
It is interesting, and it causes

1301
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:37,480
other people to see it that way.
And it might be just like the 

1302
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:39,760
fear thing might be like the 
reputation thing. 

1303
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,880
Maybe she wants people to think 
she worships weird love gods or 

1304
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,000
goddesses or what have you. 
And to enhance her reputation, 

1305
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,280
she's supposed to be this 
polarizing figure at court 

1306
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,320
that's supposed to rub people 
the wrong way. 

1307
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,560
So maybe lean into it a little 
more, maybe spread these rumors,

1308
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:59,480
maybe like, yeah, yeah, why? 
It does worship a strange line 

1309
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:01,560
seen love goddess. 
They want people to think that 

1310
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,120
it's entirely possible this was 
part of their part of their 

1311
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,360
play, part of their overall 
strategy to stand out at court 

1312
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:09,840
before things took a dramatic 
right turn. 

1313
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,040
So there's a lot of different 
things there. 

1314
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,840
And then that one scene, just 
Shay making those like 3 

1315
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,600
sentences and Santa's thought 
just in it, there's so much 

1316
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,080
wrapped into it. 
It's another testament to how 

1317
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,360
deep George's world building is 
that we can glean so much from 

1318
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,600
that without reaching. 
I mean, I don't think any of 

1319
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,360
those things are reaches because
they reflect real world values 

1320
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,320
and real world concepts in ways 
that we're very familiar with. 

1321
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,200
I keep coming back to the the 
attractiveness thing, like how 

1322
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,120
Santa's like, but I kind of like
how she looks. 

1323
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,120
But given what I'm taught, this 
isn't beautiful, but it kind of 

1324
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,000
it, like she's super interesting
to me that she's wrestling with 

1325
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,800
that a girl her age like hasn't 
been taught what beautiful is. 

1326
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,160
But she should be able to do 
what she wants and be like, 

1327
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,360
well, I get to decide what I 
want looks good on me, not what 

1328
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,920
other people think, you know? 
And Laura, she's kind of 

1329
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,360
confronted with that by by 
someone that has that freedom. 

1330
01:05:57,360 --> 01:05:59,680
And it's like, huh, it's it's 
puzzling to her. 

1331
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,760
She doesn't hate it, which is a 
credit to her that she's not, 

1332
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,160
like turned off by it or 
prejudice too much. 

1333
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:05,560
But she's she's just confused by
it. 

1334
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:07,600
But she doesn't exactly agree 
with Shay when she's like, oh, 

1335
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:11,120
this is she just kind of like, 
OK, well, you told me that she's

1336
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:12,880
not like, Oh yeah, oh, how 
awful. 

1337
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:13,840
Yeah. 
She's just kind of like 

1338
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,920
listening and taking it in and 
pondering it, you know? 

1339
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:19,080
It is I I have. 
This is like maybe a slightly 

1340
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,600
awkward story but you know, my 
granddad, You can imagine past 

1341
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,360
generations had much greater 
levels of racism than we have 

1342
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:27,520
now. 
I think we're growing and 

1343
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:31,120
learning and and he had a 
neighbor who was a black guy and

1344
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:35,000
he would point out he's a good 
guy for a black guy. 

1345
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:37,520
Like he needed to put that 
caveat in. 

1346
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,880
He still had it in him that 
black people aren't really good.

1347
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,400
But this one is different. 
You know, it's it's similar to 

1348
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,640
how Sansa is like, well, the 
orange people aren't really 

1349
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:48,520
beautiful, but but she is 
beautiful. 

1350
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,800
It's like it's she's having to 
reconcile this ingrained racism 

1351
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:56,080
or prejudice that's in her with 
this reality that she's facing, 

1352
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:57,720
you know? 
Yeah, because it doesn't, 

1353
01:06:57,720 --> 01:06:59,640
actually. 
It's not actually true to her or

1354
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,200
it isn't true to everybody. 
It's like, no, I find her pretty

1355
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:05,960
beautiful, actually. 
Why does this not fit with what 

1356
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:07,960
I've been taught as well? 
It's because beauty standards 

1357
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,840
are crap. 
I mean, not entirely crap, but 

1358
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:13,640
they're like, they're not meant 
to be rules. 

1359
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,920
They're meant to be at best. 
They're meant to be guidelines 

1360
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:18,160
at at best. 
You know, you're supposed to 

1361
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:22,120
ultimately, you know, do your 
own thing and or whatever makes 

1362
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,280
you comfortable, which might 
mean going with the standards 

1363
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,720
that's that's valid to choose. 
But Santa was never taught that 

1364
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,240
that was an option. 
She's just taught that there's 

1365
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,440
this the one way. 
All right, let's let's take a 

1366
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:36,720
quick break for roughly the 
middle to answer some questions.

1367
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,360
Do a few shout outs and we'll 
get back to the Purple Wedding, 

1368
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:43,240
Tyrion's trial, the actual duel,
and what comes after, including 

1369
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,640
our predictions for what might 
happen to Alaria by the end. 

1370
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,480
Sean, tell us who you have for 
us this week to give fun shout 

1371
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:53,760
outs to. 
Well, I've generally I've been 

1372
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,760
bouncing back and forth between 
the oldest and newest patrons, 

1373
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:59,480
but I want to give a shout out 
to someone who's been with our 

1374
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:03,400
last couple patron calls. 
Let me say this, this is a long 

1375
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:08,120
1 Lord Giuliano of House, You 
Hand of Queen of Chea known as 

1376
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:11,320
the Omni Knight. 
I like the Omni Knight as a 

1377
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,960
title quite a bit it it both 
sounds like like a rainbow, 

1378
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,160
'cause it has all the colors, 
but also it can have a lot of 

1379
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,720
other connotations, like just 
multifaceted or Jack of all 

1380
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:22,479
trades. 
You know what? 

1381
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:26,000
It makes me think of there we as
easy and I play this game called

1382
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,080
Fire Emblem and sometimes you 
have like certain units that 

1383
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:33,279
like very versatile. 
They like can use an axe and a 

1384
01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:37,479
Lance and a sword and I call 
them like my Swiss Army Knife 

1385
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,200
Knight. 
I mean that's what I meant to 

1386
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:42,120
say. 
I call them my Swiss Army 

1387
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,520
Knight, but which they are 
basically like the Omni Knight. 

1388
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:49,479
That's pretty good, yeah. 
And as a hand of the queen or 

1389
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,760
king, you would want someone 
who's got a broad skill set, I 

1390
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:53,800
would think. 
So that fits. 

1391
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,319
So we've still got some others 
to list off real quick here. 

1392
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:02,200
Willard, This slumbery of goat's
tree flash the leather slumbery.

1393
01:09:02,279 --> 01:09:05,680
Love it. 
Lady Priscilla of the White 

1394
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,399
Spear. 
Master Minotaur of House 

1395
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:12,399
Gardener. 
Our grass is always Greener and 

1396
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:14,479
Liana, Snow, the Raven and 
Winter. 

1397
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:18,680
Oh, that's a that one touches on
a lot of bases there. 

1398
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:20,000
Cool. 
Yeah. 

1399
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,840
You can get your own patron name
by joining us at 

1400
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:27,279
patreon.com/history of Westeros.
We've been over the last year. 

1401
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:29,880
Plus, we've been making lots of 
changes to our Patreon page, 

1402
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,560
adding more bonus episodes, 
adding some some simplicity to 

1403
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,279
the navigation and just trying 
to make it all better all 

1404
01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:39,439
around, make it more worthwhile.
So go there. 

1405
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,240
If you're interested in joining 
and getting access to our bonus 

1406
01:09:42,279 --> 01:09:44,800
content, we really appreciate it
and soon we're going to have a 

1407
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,160
lot of voting on a lot of 
episodes. 

1408
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,279
We want to try to get really far
ahead, so we're going to have 

1409
01:09:49,279 --> 01:09:52,800
what's I can roughly call a 
topics moot where we pick a lot 

1410
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:54,360
of topics in a relatively short 
time. 

1411
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:56,160
Haven't quite worked out how 
we're going to do it yet. 

1412
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:59,440
We've been kind of talking about
it on our in our meetings. 

1413
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,240
So you're going to want to sign 
up to be a part of that and get 

1414
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,080
all the other things that come 
with being a member as well. 

1415
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,400
Just be careful not to mix up 
the topic moot with the topic 

1416
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:09,160
mute. 
Don't want to mix those. 

1417
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:15,120
Jornish Dame says this has me in
mind of Laura Rogare and the 

1418
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:17,840
prejudice she faced for not 
worshipping the Seven, which of 

1419
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:20,800
course came right after the 
Dance of the Dragons. 

1420
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,280
And we've talked about that a 
bit and a couple times we talked

1421
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:28,320
about during the the episode on 
lease and that is also something

1422
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,080
Nina pointed out. 
So good call both of you. 

1423
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,160
Yes, Laura Rogare faced 
prejudice specifically for being

1424
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:34,960
Lysenti for worshipping Lysenti.
Gods. 

1425
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:39,240
Now she also didn't even learn 
the language, so that not to say

1426
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:41,080
that's a good reason to be 
prejudice against her, but it 

1427
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,960
was just the the weight of that 
prejudice was larger because she

1428
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,480
didn't try to become part of the
Westerosi culture or was unable 

1429
01:10:49,480 --> 01:10:50,920
to, and then she didn't. 
She never really liked it. 

1430
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,400
She left right and including 
leaving her children behind. 

1431
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,120
So yeah, she really didn't like 
it. 

1432
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:57,960
But there's no indication that 
Lauria doesn't like it. 

1433
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,360
If she didn't like it, well, 
she's showing. 

1434
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,120
She just she wasn't showing it. 
She was poised and putting a 

1435
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:05,920
brave face forward. 
Anders Graham makes the comment.

1436
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,040
Mascara mating is that. 
Like masquerading. 

1437
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,040
Masquerading. 
Masquerading. 

1438
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:12,480
Yes. 
Jay's masquerading. 

1439
01:11:12,480 --> 01:11:17,880
That really made me laugh that. 
Is good. 

1440
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:22,120
So the purple wedding in 
Tyrion's trial. 

1441
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:25,920
Cersei solves the seating issue 
actually pretty cleverly. 

1442
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,920
Cersei is clever. 
We we, you know, she's somehow 

1443
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,400
that amazing mix of of stupid 
and clever. 

1444
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:33,200
She does. 
She's both. 

1445
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:36,360
I mean, she's not stupid when 
she's not angry, but she's just 

1446
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:39,320
angry so often. 
I think that she's intelligent, 

1447
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,000
unwise. 
Yeah, that too. 

1448
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,120
And and prone to acting when 
she's angry. 

1449
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:44,360
Which? 
Is part of She's unwise. 

1450
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:47,040
Yeah, that snowballs really, 
really badly. 

1451
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,080
So this case, she solved it 
pretty smoothly. 

1452
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:52,920
She just put another table in 
and put it right below the dais.

1453
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:56,360
So it's very much a place of 
honor, but it's also very far 

1454
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,280
from the Tyrells. 
Tyrion notes that it's as far 

1455
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:00,920
from the Tyrells as possible, so
it's actually pretty smoothly 

1456
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,520
done by by Cersei there. 
And it makes sense to put all 

1457
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,960
the Dornish at that one table so
you don't have to have the high 

1458
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,280
Dornish with Alaria up with the 
other high nobles. 

1459
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:15,240
So it it's something that makes 
sense that and and it's hard to 

1460
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,440
argue against and so on. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1461
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,560
Now, so she's there at the 
Purple Wedding. 

1462
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:24,600
Of course, like so many others, 
she isn't really noted during 

1463
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,680
the event. 
Except for that, we definitely 

1464
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,840
see her, but she's not really a 
part of, of course, the scene of

1465
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,120
Joffrey and Tyrion and Joffrey 
dying eventually. 

1466
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:36,840
But the other things that 
precede that the the the scene 

1467
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,800
they were making and Joffrey 
dumping his wine on Tyrion and 

1468
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:41,320
all that stuff. 
So it's it's the scene is 

1469
01:12:41,320 --> 01:12:45,680
through Tyrion's point of view. 
So we oh wait, is it or is it 

1470
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:46,640
through senses? 
Yeah. 

1471
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,280
Anyway, I always forget, but it 
doesn't matter. 

1472
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:52,240
Neither of them take much note 
of Alaria, but she's there for 

1473
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:54,040
sure. 
So she sees Joffrey die. 

1474
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:59,200
She sees Joffrey behave, too. 
And that's like, whoa, that that

1475
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,040
guy's going to be the king. 
They must have heard things. 

1476
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:04,120
But seeing him behave that way 
in front of a bunch of people, 

1477
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:08,520
probably for the first time, is 
like, whoa, Dang, that's that's 

1478
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:10,360
bad. 
But she may have sympathized 

1479
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:12,440
with Cersei throughout, despite 
everything. 

1480
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:17,440
Because as a mother, seeing 
another mother lose their child 

1481
01:13:17,440 --> 01:13:20,120
right in front of them is like, 
well, even I, even as much as I 

1482
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,680
support my husband's revenge, 
this might be this is rough. 

1483
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,640
Like I didn't need to see that, 
but maybe she relished in it. 

1484
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:28,440
We really don't know. 
She might have been like, yeah, 

1485
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,160
that kid deserved it. 
You know, I don't want to go too

1486
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,880
far in what I assume about 
Alaria, especially because one 

1487
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,640
of my theories is that she may 
have done an about face after 

1488
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,680
Oberyn's death and realized that
may have been what set her on 

1489
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:45,880
this anti blood feud cycle 
before. 

1490
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,760
She may have been like, yeah, 
yeah, Revenge. 

1491
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:49,640
Good. 
Yeah, get him. 

1492
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,320
I wonder if it may not have been
a full about face if she was 

1493
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,400
already starting to turn after 
seeing Joffrey die in Cersei's 

1494
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:56,960
arms, you know? 
Maybe. 

1495
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,280
Maybe that started it. 
Maybe that maybe that added some

1496
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,400
weight to what came shortly 
after. 

1497
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:05,640
She starts to think about how 
where this is going and she 

1498
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:08,640
might have one of her kids dying
in her arms and etcetera, 

1499
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,040
etcetera. 
Yeah, like she cares about. 

1500
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:14,440
She might have cared about the 
cycle of violence, cared about 

1501
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:16,560
getting revenge. 
She cares about her own children

1502
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,480
more than that. 
Like, well, my, if it's with one

1503
01:14:18,480 --> 01:14:20,240
or the other, then I'm 
absolutely, there's no choice at

1504
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:22,240
all. 
I'm picking my children and 

1505
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:27,240
peace over getting revenge. 
So yeah, so that's. 

1506
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:28,360
You're right. 
You're right to point that out 

1507
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,280
that she may have pictured 
herself in that spot and she 

1508
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,400
could easily see that future 
given the the violence between 

1509
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:36,520
these families and the stakes in
play and the the the 

1510
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:39,000
personalities in play. 
People like Cersei and her 

1511
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:43,280
paramour Oberyn and and Gregor 
Clegane and Tywin Lannister. 

1512
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:46,120
These are ruthless, brutal, 
violent people. 

1513
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,200
So it's not hard for her to 
imagine that could have some 

1514
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,360
blowback on her family. 
And you know, Oberon wasn't 

1515
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:55,400
necessarily there to 
specifically kill Joffrey. 

1516
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,400
But if Oberon had his way, if he
could snap his finger and have 

1517
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:02,040
every Lannister die, he would 
probably do it right. 

1518
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:07,120
And that's exactly why Elia and 
her kids are dead, right? 

1519
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:09,440
And so she sees this is the same
thing. 

1520
01:15:09,440 --> 01:15:13,200
You know, if there's any piece 
of logic going through a brain, 

1521
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:15,080
that's the path that this is 
headed on. 

1522
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:18,480
That someone wants to kill her 
kids, you know, she'd rather 

1523
01:15:18,480 --> 01:15:21,880
just stop this whole thing. 
Their their rank didn't stop, 

1524
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,320
didn't save them like Ilia was 
Promote was basically the the 

1525
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:28,240
heir to being queen of Westeros 
and it didn't stop her. 

1526
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,720
It didn't save her. 
Even though like like normal 

1527
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:33,920
hostage situation, normal like 
nobles are protected and given 

1528
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:36,840
for ransom, didn't protect her, 
you know, it just goes to show 

1529
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:38,240
that you can't count on those 
things. 

1530
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:43,400
So Oberyn visits Tyrion in his 
cell and before he offers to be 

1531
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:45,560
his champion in public, he does 
it there in private. 

1532
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:48,400
Recall he mentions the 
possibility as well of marrying 

1533
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:50,440
Cersei because remember, Tywin 
was floating that idea as a way 

1534
01:15:50,440 --> 01:15:53,440
to sort of stitch things back up
like you could Cersei, you could

1535
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:56,400
marry Oberyn, or you could marry
Balon Greyjoy and she's like, 

1536
01:15:56,480 --> 01:16:00,280
what, are you kidding me? 
And J and Jamie, when he hears 

1537
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:03,800
his like, are you kidding me? 
He has the same similar reaction

1538
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,840
like what the hell And you know 
politically it all it kind of 

1539
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,600
makes sense but it's like what 
the how can this is these 

1540
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:12,960
marriages will be dysfunctional 
is all hell. 

1541
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:20,760
And so he brings it up as like 
you know Elaria thinks we should

1542
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:23,720
say yes because he wants her in 
our she wants her in our bed. 

1543
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:27,080
She's never had a blonde royal 
before, whatever it is, he says,

1544
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:30,120
it's like she's Randy just 
thinking about it, you know, and

1545
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:36,880
and but then Oberyn pivots to 
the corgile scorpion bed murder 

1546
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,760
story, which he would know very 
well considering he was fostered

1547
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:40,240
there. 
Right? 

1548
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,200
And it's also just a famous 
story that's come up many times 

1549
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:46,920
on our show, he says. 
I'd rather have those scorpions 

1550
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:51,600
in my beds in Cersei, so he's 
not dumb. 

1551
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,960
I don't know I different with 
Oberon in many ways and this is 

1552
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:58,320
1. 
Yeah, I would also rather have. 

1553
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:00,920
So I'd take the Cersei risk than
the 100 scorpions. 

1554
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:07,560
Yeah, so, So at the trial, when 
it came around, did our lawyer 

1555
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:09,240
already know this? 
Like she was presumably there in

1556
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:10,280
the crowd, though we don't see 
it. 

1557
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,440
She's definitely there for the 
duel, obviously, but for the 

1558
01:17:12,440 --> 01:17:15,560
actual trial, I don't know if 
she was there probably though, 

1559
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:17,680
because her, you know, Oberyn's 
there as a judge. 

1560
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,640
She's a dignitary at court. 
It's a big event. 

1561
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:24,160
You know, she probably was there
so, but did she know what he was

1562
01:17:24,160 --> 01:17:25,360
going to do? 
Did she know he was going to 

1563
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:28,480
stand up and go? 
I actually I'm quite convinced I

1564
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:31,680
will stand for Tyrion as his 
champion and everyone's like 

1565
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:33,120
what? 
But it goes crazy. 

1566
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,040
The room explodes Was she was 
she like waiting for that moment

1567
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:39,560
like I can't wait for this like 
I'm going to see the she's like 

1568
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:43,880
sitting there savoring the 
moment and or she was just 

1569
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,120
excited to see how it all played
out I don't know but she might 

1570
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:47,480
not have known she might not 
have seen it coming. 

1571
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:49,960
I think she. 
Did, Because I'm not sure Oberon

1572
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:52,560
knew. 
I'm not sure how certain he was 

1573
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,440
that he was going to make that 
play, much less had he talked 

1574
01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:59,320
about it to her. 
I can imagine maybe they had had

1575
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:04,400
a discussion, but not I have 
decided this, you know, I think 

1576
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,040
it's something he was batting 
around in his own head. 

1577
01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:09,600
I don't think he knew it well 
enough to have told her he was 

1578
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:11,520
going to do it. 
Yeah, 'cause he maybe he wasn't 

1579
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:13,960
sure what was actually going to 
happen, although he had already 

1580
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:15,000
told Tyrion he was going to do 
it. 

1581
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,640
So I wonder, maybe maybe it's 
possible she even was part of 

1582
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:20,240
the planning, like gave him some
of the ideas, Like she bounces, 

1583
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,560
he bounces ideas off, and we 
have no idea what that part of 

1584
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:25,240
the relationship was like. 
So I I just don't know. 

1585
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:28,920
I'm guessing probably not to 
that level of like you should 

1586
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:31,040
poison your spear, you know? 
And also I'm not sure. 

1587
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:33,400
I don't think she had that level
of involvement, but it is 

1588
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:34,960
possible we can't throw that 
out, right? 

1589
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,080
I think if she had seen Gregor 
ahead of time she would have 

1590
01:18:37,080 --> 01:18:40,360
told him to poison his spear. 
Well, yeah, 'cause she 

1591
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:42,600
definitely hadn't seen him ahead
of time. 

1592
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,080
Yeah, she's like, you're going 
to fight that And he goes, I'm 

1593
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:48,600
going to kill that. 
So clearly she hadn't seen him 

1594
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:51,960
yet which makes sense cause 
Cersei when when they say I'll 

1595
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:55,480
stand as champion Sir, you know 
Cersei says Gregor has returned 

1596
01:18:55,480 --> 01:18:57,440
to the city you know a day or 
two days ago. 

1597
01:18:57,440 --> 01:18:58,960
So it was very recently he has 
come back. 

1598
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:01,960
So it's it makes sense that he 
wouldn't she wouldn't have seen 

1599
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:03,160
him yet. 
You know, this reminds me of 

1600
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:07,280
another thing too, that might 
have shifted Ilaria's stance. 

1601
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:11,920
Having gone to King's Landing 
and seen the resources at the 

1602
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:15,120
Lannister's disposal, she might 
have dreaded how the word's 

1603
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:16,680
going to go. 
Right. 

1604
01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:18,240
Yeah, maybe. 
Maybe. 

1605
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:21,560
Oberon took out Gregor, but they
might have another Gregor. 

1606
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:25,360
They've just got Knights and 
horses and money and people and 

1607
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,360
everything all around. 
Like, we just don't have these 

1608
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:30,720
resources back in Dorne. 
I don't know if we can stand up.

1609
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,320
I mean, maybe we can. 
We started to the Dragons, but 

1610
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,520
how many people died standing up
to the Dragons? 

1611
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:37,200
I don't want my daughters to 
die. 

1612
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,240
I don't want this to happen. 
Yeah, yeah, well said. 

1613
01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:44,360
Now, also during the duel, she 
says, 'cause she's right next to

1614
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:45,600
Tyrion. 
They're next to each other, 

1615
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:48,120
obviously. 
They're a lot, They both have a 

1616
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:52,640
lot in play on that duel, she 
says. 

1617
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:56,040
Obern is toying with him at one 
point, and Tyrion's like, that's

1618
01:19:56,040 --> 01:20:01,320
a very stupid thing to do, but. 
But put them on your own time. 

1619
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:03,640
My life's at stake here. 
It's not real. 

1620
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:04,960
He wasn't really toying with 
him. 

1621
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:07,880
He was trying to frustrate him 
and get him to yell. 

1622
01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:11,440
To admit his guilt through 
through that, for that 

1623
01:20:11,440 --> 01:20:14,000
frustration was a set up to make
him admit his guilt. 

1624
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,960
Like say her name, say her name,
say her name over and over and 

1625
01:20:17,440 --> 01:20:20,400
getting him, getting in his head
and all that and wounding him 

1626
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:23,240
and making him tired and just 
yeah, until he just loses it 

1627
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:26,120
entirely. 
He was partly toying with him, 

1628
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:29,600
'cause there is sort of a 
psychological advantage and he 

1629
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:32,480
does need to wear him down. 
But also, he could have just 

1630
01:20:32,480 --> 01:20:34,480
killed him. 
He got to a point where he could

1631
01:20:34,480 --> 01:20:36,160
have just killed him. 
He didn't 'cause he wasn't 

1632
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,960
trying to save Tyrion's life. 
He's trying to get this 

1633
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:41,360
admission of guilt and. 
He didn't give a crap about 

1634
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,480
Tyrion. 
He did not care. 

1635
01:20:44,480 --> 01:20:47,400
He's like, yeah, I'll save you. 
But he's more about like another

1636
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:49,440
thumb in Tywin's eye to to save 
Tyrion. 

1637
01:20:49,440 --> 01:20:53,160
He's like, oh, I can, I can kill
Gregor and piss off Tywin, like 

1638
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:55,520
in a separate way, like it's 
already going to piss off Tywin.

1639
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:57,320
But this is a a double Wham. 
Yeah. 

1640
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:03,400
So it it it fell into place so, 
well, except for the whole dying

1641
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:08,920
part. 
So the focus is of course on 

1642
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,960
Tyrion's reaction. 
Obviously it's his POV and he's 

1643
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:12,800
very much concerned for his own 
life. 

1644
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:18,200
But as he's throwing up his 
breakfast when over in skull is 

1645
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:23,200
crushed, Ilaria's wail of 
terror, you know, is in his he 

1646
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:26,920
he notes it as he's, you know 
condemned because they're right 

1647
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:30,360
there. 
So as unique as her place at 

1648
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,840
court was in the short time she 
was there, Oberyn's death is 

1649
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,920
arguably even more compelling in
terms of what it does to her 

1650
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:39,440
character. 
Partly that's just because we 

1651
01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:41,000
don't know it's coming. 
And there's, you know, the 

1652
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,720
mystery is always a bit more 
compelling in some ways. 

1653
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:45,840
There's always the the allure of
of the unknown. 

1654
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,200
I mean George wrote the Red 
Viper to be killed, as we said, 

1655
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:51,680
he just did it so well. 
He he he almost he he out rode 

1656
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:55,600
himself. 
The reason that he cites. 

1657
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,520
And there's other reasons, of 
course, but one of the loudest 

1658
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,560
reasons that George cites for 
the five year gap being scrapped

1659
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:03,200
is the reaction of the Red 
Viper's death. 

1660
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:05,720
He's like, I wrote this 
character to be dead, but I did 

1661
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,120
it so well that I can't skip the
reaction to it. 

1662
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:10,720
I can't do it in retrospect 
only. 

1663
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:13,600
Oops, made this character too 
interesting. 

1664
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:16,280
It's like the Boba Fett effect 
of like this character wasn't 

1665
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:18,560
supposed to be important, but 
everyone loves him so much. 

1666
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:19,560
We can't. 
Yeah, we can't. 

1667
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:22,440
George fell for that himself. 
It's like, if Spielberg had 

1668
01:22:22,440 --> 01:22:24,520
decided that about Boba Fett, 
he's like, you know what, Boba 

1669
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:26,160
Fett's too cool. 
I got to expand his role. 

1670
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:27,360
It doesn't matter what the fans 
say. 

1671
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:30,480
It's cool that the fans agree. 
But I'm the one that thinks Boba

1672
01:22:30,480 --> 01:22:31,640
Fett is cool. 
So I'm doing this. 

1673
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:33,600
It's the same thing as George is
like, man, this red Viper. 

1674
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:36,800
He's just, he's too cool. 
He didn't climb back out of the 

1675
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:37,960
Sarlacc pit. 
Cool. 

1676
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:41,080
But you can't really come back 
from that crushed skull. 

1677
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:44,360
That's not very ambiguous. 
So anyway, the political shift 

1678
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,240
is gigantic. 
Doran's reaction is gigantic, 

1679
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:48,520
but the most personally impacted
is her. 

1680
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:53,080
If anyone alive knows his 
secrets, knew the man truly 

1681
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:57,080
behind the poison spear, behind 
the the threats, behind the 

1682
01:22:57,080 --> 01:22:59,880
anger, it would be her even more
than Doran, I think. 

1683
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:02,680
I don't think Doran's going to 
be alive all that much longer 

1684
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:06,280
anyway, so it won't even be a 
question. 

1685
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,640
Probably in a little while. 
So she obviously doesn't stay at

1686
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,040
King's Landing very long because
she has to bring home Oberon's 

1687
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:12,760
body. 
Much grieving from her along the

1688
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,920
way to be sure and trepidation. 
She probably, in the back of her

1689
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,880
mind, knows that. 
Oh boy, Lot's going to happen 

1690
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:20,200
now. 
His death is going to be, 

1691
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:21,960
there's going to be a big 
provocation. 

1692
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:23,520
She knows her. 
She knows her countrymen. 

1693
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:24,800
She knows they're going to react
strongly. 

1694
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:26,640
She knows they're not just going
to take it lying down. 

1695
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:31,640
So that's just a double, another
double whammy that she lost her,

1696
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,120
her lover, the only person in 
the world that that meant this 

1697
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,840
much to her other than her 
children, which is a different 

1698
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:40,080
sort of love, obviously, and she
fears for her country. 

1699
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:43,240
Now, you know this this all 
backfired so badly and the the 

1700
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:46,360
the outcry is going to be so 
severe that it will probably, 

1701
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:48,200
it's not certainly lead to more 
violence. 

1702
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:50,840
So I just can only imagine, I 
don't want to linger on it 

1703
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:53,440
because it's not a very pleasant
thought like what's going 

1704
01:23:53,440 --> 01:23:55,760
through her mind because it's a 
procession back to Dorne. 

1705
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:58,880
It probably wasn't like a brisk 
trot. 

1706
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:01,600
They move slowly probably. 
And you know, that's how 

1707
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:05,040
mourners work, right? 
Usually just go kind of nice 

1708
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:10,800
easy pace and people follow 
along and and express their 

1709
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:12,560
grief. 
You go, you know, that's kind of

1710
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,480
the point. 
So she's the one to bring him 

1711
01:24:14,480 --> 01:24:18,040
back to Sun Spirits. 
It's actually Gregor's body that

1712
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,480
causes arguably even more of a 
storer in Dorne. 

1713
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:24,080
In some ways, less in some ways 
more than others. 

1714
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:25,320
So yeah, let's let's talk about 
that. 

1715
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:28,400
What I've called this section is
the skull and the speech Sir 

1716
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:32,120
Baillon Swan arrives with The 
skull claims to belong to Sir 

1717
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:35,720
Gregor, and a feast is held, 
which we see through the eyes, 

1718
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:38,320
not of that skull, but of Ario 
Hota Via. 

1719
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:39,920
It would be weird though, if we 
saw it through the skull. 

1720
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:45,160
In the Watcher chapter, Doran 
commands that the box containing

1721
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:49,840
the skull be opened, and Maester
Kaliot brings it from Sir Bailon

1722
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,680
to him. 
Arianne is sitting to one side 

1723
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,280
of Prince Doran Illaria on the 
other, and here's what happened 

1724
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,720
next. 
Quote A hush had fallen across 

1725
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:00,960
the hall. 
Doran holds its breath. 

1726
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:04,840
Master Kaliot set the box on the
floor beside Prince Doran's 

1727
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,080
chair. 
The maester's fingers, normally 

1728
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:10,320
so shore and deft, turned clumsy
as he worked the latch and 

1729
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,200
opened the lid. 
Reveal the skull. 

1730
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:14,920
Within hotel heard someone clear
his throat. 

1731
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:17,280
One of the Fowler twins 
whispered something to the 

1732
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:19,960
other. 
Alaria San had closed her eyes 

1733
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:21,280
and was murmuring a prayer. 
I. 

1734
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:24,040
Wonder what she's praying for. 
It might be to that lysine love 

1735
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:27,760
goddess, but might not be. 
It might just be like, I hope 

1736
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,240
this doesn't, you know, may 
this, may he be at rest. 

1737
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:33,200
May this help put him at rest. 
May this not provoke more 

1738
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:35,040
violence, I don't know, but 
there's a lot of things. 

1739
01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:37,840
It's not hard to think that 
there's plenty of things that 

1740
01:25:37,840 --> 01:25:39,920
would be on her mind that would 
she want to pray for. 

1741
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:42,360
Yeah, I think she's praying that
this will be the end. 

1742
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:45,160
OK, you got Gregor's head now 
we're done. 

1743
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:46,520
That's what everyone wanted, 
right? 

1744
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:48,000
We got it right. 
This should be enough. 

1745
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:49,640
Right. 
And Tywin is dead by then, too. 

1746
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:51,960
That's important as well. 
Like Tywin was killed by Tyrion 

1747
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:54,920
in the most embarrassing, 
ignoble way, like after the 

1748
01:25:54,920 --> 01:25:57,320
result of that duel. 
So it's all kind of connected to

1749
01:25:57,320 --> 01:25:59,720
that. 
So some people might even like, 

1750
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:04,160
give partial credit to the Red 
Viper for stirring that scene of

1751
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:06,640
the the series of events that 
led to Tyrion killing Tywin. 

1752
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:10,520
You know, so they could give him
a little bit of a point for 

1753
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:12,000
that. 
So. 

1754
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,600
But also her, I mean her 
daughters are now fatherless. 

1755
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:15,880
I mean there's a lot. 
There's going to be a ton of 

1756
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,080
things on her mind. 
Yeah. 

1757
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:21,040
Maybe praying for peace, 
protection, anything. 

1758
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:23,160
Just emotionally devastating 
loss. 

1759
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:25,600
You know, it's not hard to think
that there'd be a lot on her 

1760
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:27,120
mind. 
So we don't know what it was. 

1761
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:30,640
But there's a lot of things 
possibly now perhaps she's 

1762
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:33,400
praying for, like you said, 
Sean, for peace and and that's 

1763
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:36,360
that comes up here. 
She the thing that Doran says a 

1764
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:38,440
few minutes later of Sir Gregor 
quote. 

1765
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,400
I only pray that now he is 
burning in some hell and the 

1766
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:43,040
Elia and her children are at 
peace. 

1767
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:45,440
This is the justice that Dorne 
has hungered for. 

1768
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:47,840
I'm glad that I lived long 
enough to taste it. 

1769
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:51,440
At long last the Lannisters have
proved the truth of their boast 

1770
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:54,480
and paid this old blood debt. 
So he wants the cycle of 

1771
01:26:54,480 --> 01:26:57,680
violence to end, too. 
He quotes at one point his 

1772
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:00,120
unnamed mother telling him at 
the Water Gardens. 

1773
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:04,520
Look at these children. 
Consider them first in all that 

1774
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:09,640
you do. 
So hilarious probably subscribes

1775
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:15,320
to that way of thinking and I 
wonder if, well, not if. 

1776
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,760
I wonder what conversations 
Doran and Olaria had upon her 

1777
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:21,800
return to Doran with Oberyn's 
body. 

1778
01:27:22,200 --> 01:27:26,920
And they talked about the 
dangers that are coming or just 

1779
01:27:27,480 --> 01:27:30,880
just supported each other a bit 
because Doran doesn't really 

1780
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:35,800
include her and his plans going 
forward, understandably, partly 

1781
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:38,480
because she doesn't want to want
to be a part of it and partly 

1782
01:27:38,480 --> 01:27:40,600
because she has other concerns, 
partly because she's not 

1783
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,000
ambitious or political and. 
Do you think there's any chance 

1784
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:44,960
they had a conversation off 
screen? 

1785
01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:47,640
Oh yeah, I do and. 
That he knows. 

1786
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:50,080
So he knows her sentiment 
already at this point that 

1787
01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:54,080
she's, you know, a Peacemonger. 
Yeah, a Peacemonger. 

1788
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:58,680
Yeah. 
So when the toast is made to 

1789
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:01,800
King Tommen, many do not drink. 
Hotah is very aware he's looking

1790
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:02,880
around, trying to see who 
drinks. 

1791
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:09,000
Who doesn't? 
And the others don't, but Ilaria

1792
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:12,120
does. 
Ilaria drinks to peace and she's

1793
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:14,000
sitting at the high table, so 
it's very notable that she 

1794
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:15,600
drinks to peace and and so does 
Doran. 

1795
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:17,400
Well, actually Doran doesn't 
because he doesn't drink at all.

1796
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:19,360
He drinks his own. 
He doesn't drink wine, he drinks

1797
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:20,640
his own. 
So he was like he has an excuse 

1798
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:23,080
to not drink because he's he 
drinks his poppy juice 

1799
01:28:23,080 --> 01:28:26,440
separately. 
So but it's still a signal of 

1800
01:28:26,440 --> 01:28:27,880
her attitude. 
A lot of people in the hall, 

1801
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,640
she's at the high table, she's 
drinking very like openly and 

1802
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:33,200
and toasting to peace and all 
that. 

1803
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:36,120
But not everyone actually knows 
what an advocate for PC is. 

1804
01:28:36,120 --> 01:28:38,440
I don't know if everyone in the 
room is aware of her position, 

1805
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:42,080
maybe they become aware of it 
later, but how outspoken had she

1806
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:44,200
been about this prior? 
We don't, we don't know. 

1807
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:47,240
But she's still declaring it 
very openly through through her 

1808
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:49,680
action. 
And maybe she's trying to set an

1809
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:52,400
example. 
Like even if if if Oberyn's the 

1810
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:54,800
person Oberyn was closest to or 
the two people Oberyn was 

1811
01:28:54,800 --> 01:28:57,520
closest to can put this away, 
then maybe they should too. 

1812
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:59,200
Most of them probably won't, but
it helps. 

1813
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:01,760
Probably might might change a 
few people's minds. 

1814
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:04,200
She needs to be the one to set 
the example. 

1815
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:05,840
You know, whether it works or 
not. 

1816
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:09,200
If it's going to work at the 
hope is in her and Doran. 

1817
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:10,520
There's no one else that can do 
it. 

1818
01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:13,440
And the flip side is, if she's 
like calling for blood, she'll 

1819
01:29:13,440 --> 01:29:16,520
get it like that. 
So just by not doing it, it 

1820
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:17,680
makes a huge difference. 
Yeah. 

1821
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,640
So not only does she live out 
this attitude, or at least she 

1822
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:23,680
starts to, because again, we 
don't know when it began for 

1823
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:27,280
her, but she provides us with 
possibly the best conversation 

1824
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:30,120
on the topic of cycles of 
violence. 

1825
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:33,520
This comes a little later when 
they are looking at the skull 

1826
01:29:33,520 --> 01:29:36,520
after the event is over and 
they're in private. 

1827
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:39,200
So George gives this great 
speech to her, this 

1828
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:41,600
conversation. 
First it starts with o'bara 

1829
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,120
saying quote. 
She gave the skull a mocking 

1830
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:46,440
kiss. 
This is a start I'll grant. 

1831
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:49,800
A start, said, hilarious and 
incredulous. 

1832
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:53,520
God forbid I would. 
It were a finish. 

1833
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:58,200
Tywin Lannister is dead. 
So are Robert Baratheon, Amory 

1834
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:02,880
Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, 
all those who had a hand in 

1835
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,720
murdering Elia and her children,
Even Joffrey, who was not yet 

1836
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:12,200
born when Elia died. 
I saw the boy perish with mine 

1837
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:16,880
own eyes, clawing at his throat 
as he tried to draw a breath. 

1838
01:30:17,480 --> 01:30:22,200
Who else is there to kill? 
Do Marcella and Tommen need to 

1839
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:26,640
die so the shades of rainies and
Aegon can be at rest? 

1840
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,080
Where does it end? 
It ends in blood as it begins, 

1841
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:33,880
said Lady Nim. 
It ends when Casterly Rock is 

1842
01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:37,000
cracked open so the sun can 
shine on the maggots and worms 

1843
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:39,360
within. 
It ends with the utter ruin of 

1844
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:41,280
Tywin Lannister and all his 
works. 

1845
01:30:41,440 --> 01:30:44,120
The man died at the hand of his 
own son. 

1846
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,280
Alaria snapped back. 
What more could you wish? 

1847
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:48,920
I mean, seriously, she's so 
right. 

1848
01:30:49,000 --> 01:30:50,160
Like what? 
More like it's. 

1849
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:53,000
It really is like a good if this
isn't a stopping point like. 

1850
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:54,680
I want to, I want to point out 
here. 

1851
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:58,520
I think I had it here. 
The the next line, her answer is

1852
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:01,240
I could wish that he died at my 
hand. 

1853
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:03,360
Yeah. 
It's not that they just want 

1854
01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:05,720
vengeance, that they want to get
vengeance. 

1855
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:07,400
They want to be the ones that do
it. 

1856
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,440
It's not enough for vengeance to
be done or even for them to win 

1857
01:31:10,440 --> 01:31:12,640
the battle. 
They want to be the ones they 

1858
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:16,280
being, you know, people who were
hope bent on vengeance and not 

1859
01:31:16,280 --> 01:31:18,760
thinking about peace or the 
children or all the other things

1860
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:20,720
that should be higher priorities
that they want to get it 

1861
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:22,680
themself. 
Or even not thinking about how 

1862
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:25,840
it's a much sweeter vengeance 
again for your own, for his own 

1863
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:27,160
son to. 
Kill him, that was. 

1864
01:31:27,440 --> 01:31:29,080
Like that is bad like that 
seems. 

1865
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:31,400
Failure. 
Yeah, that seems better than you

1866
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:33,000
killing him. 
Yeah, I agree. 

1867
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:34,240
Like, it's like it's like 
vengeance. 

1868
01:31:34,240 --> 01:31:35,480
It's like they're treating it 
like it was a pie. 

1869
01:31:35,480 --> 01:31:37,960
They didn't get a slice of, you 
know, it's like, hey, I didn't 

1870
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:40,320
get my slice. 
It's like, yeah, but the pie, it

1871
01:31:40,320 --> 01:31:43,360
was distributed and it's it was 
a good pie. 

1872
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:49,600
It was a very good pie. 
But no, there's a wrinkle here, 

1873
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:51,080
which is that they aren't 
worried about the skull 

1874
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:52,880
ultimately because there doesn't
seem to be any point to 

1875
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:54,200
switching the heads. 
They talk about it. 

1876
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:56,920
They're like, hey, is this 
really Gregor's skull? 

1877
01:31:56,960 --> 01:31:59,720
You know? 
And they're like what purpose 

1878
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:02,040
would there be to fooling us 
about the skull? 

1879
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:07,560
Like, I we a McGregor definitely
was poisoned by the the 

1880
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:10,200
manticore venom. 
So there's no doubt that dude 

1881
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:11,760
died. 
Right. 

1882
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,840
And what's the point of 
switching the skulls Like what 

1883
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:16,560
could possibly be the point of 
that? 

1884
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:19,400
Well we know magic maybe 
necromancy or something and 

1885
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:23,120
might be involved but they can't
conceive of that possibility. 

1886
01:32:23,120 --> 01:32:26,960
So they're like yeah it's might 
not be his skull but why would 

1887
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:28,640
she do that. 
And and yeah, they they they 

1888
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:31,760
because there's no good answer. 
They they kind of leave it at 

1889
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:33,640
that. 
But we do know that it's 

1890
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:39,560
probably not Gregor's skull and 
so that will be upsetting again 

1891
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:41,080
later. 
I'll come back up later when the

1892
01:32:41,080 --> 01:32:43,600
two of the Sand Snakes go to 
King's Landing and they're like,

1893
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,920
all right who's the 8 footer. 
The other wait footer. 

1894
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:51,720
Yeah. 
On the Kingsguard, you say? 

1895
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:55,440
Yeah, I I did speculate that 
Alaria might have wondered, do 

1896
01:32:55,440 --> 01:32:57,440
they have another Gregor? 
You know, what are they going to

1897
01:32:57,440 --> 01:32:59,840
come at us with? 
You know, even if somehow we 

1898
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:02,520
fight them off, it's not worth 
it. 

1899
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:04,120
Yeah, What is her reaction going
to be? 

1900
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:06,480
Because she will find out 
eventually that actually this 

1901
01:33:06,480 --> 01:33:09,280
dude's walking around like, 
she's like, what's she going to 

1902
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:11,200
make of that? 
She's like, how is that like, 

1903
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:13,640
what a lot of people are going 
to be confused over? 

1904
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:15,880
That and that's all the more 
reason to make peace. 

1905
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:19,240
Like even when we kill their 
giant warrior, they still have 

1906
01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:21,440
the giant. 
Warrior comes back as a walking 

1907
01:33:21,440 --> 01:33:22,640
zombie. 
Yeah, that's we. 

1908
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:23,880
Maybe we shouldn't be messing 
with them. 

1909
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:26,880
They might be above our, might 
be above our weight class. 

1910
01:33:28,240 --> 01:33:35,080
So there is another paragraph 
that Hilaria says after the 

1911
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:38,280
change of I wanted to be me, you
know, I I didn't get to any 

1912
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,920
vengeance personally. 
So the conclusion of her plea to

1913
01:33:41,920 --> 01:33:43,960
remember these are her 
paramour's three eldest 

1914
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:45,520
children. 
Remember Sorella's not there and

1915
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:48,520
Sorella's the 4th. 
She's off at Old Town being 

1916
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:51,320
Alaris the Sphinx. 
They seem dead set on their 

1917
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:53,320
path. 
This is her final plea to get 

1918
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:56,560
them to stop quote. 
Oberyn wanted vengeance for 

1919
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:58,800
Elia. 
Now the three of you want 

1920
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:01,480
vengeance for him. 
I have four daughters. 

1921
01:34:01,480 --> 01:34:06,800
I remind you, your sisters. 
My Elia is 14, almost a woman. 

1922
01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:10,440
Obela is 12, on the brink of 
maidenhood. 

1923
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:15,160
They worship you as Doraia and 
Loreza worship them. 

1924
01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:20,320
If you should die, must Elia and
Obela seek vengeance for you? 

1925
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:25,120
Then Doraia and Loreza for them?
Is that how it goes? 

1926
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:28,920
Round and round forever? 
I ask again. 

1927
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:33,320
Where does it end? 
I saw your father die. 

1928
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:37,760
Here is his killer. 
Can I take a skull to bed with 

1929
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:39,680
me to give me comfort in the 
night? 

1930
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:42,440
Will it make me laugh? 
Write me songs? 

1931
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:45,040
Care for me when I'm old and 
sick? 

1932
01:34:45,320 --> 01:34:47,960
There should be like, a pamphlet
distributed to all of Westeros, 

1933
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:52,320
like, right. 
Like just get hilarious and the 

1934
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:54,800
screed of someone who knows, 
right? 

1935
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:56,920
Like a lot of. 
Yeah. 

1936
01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:58,280
A lot of people should be taught
this. 

1937
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:01,600
Maybe in the real world, too. 
Like, a lot of a lot of people 

1938
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:03,600
could could take a lesson from 
that. 

1939
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:04,880
So then she pretty much walked 
out. 

1940
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:06,920
After that, she's like, I'm 
done. 

1941
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:08,520
You know, you all aren't 
listening. 

1942
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:11,160
I can't hear this 
bloodthirstiness anymore. 

1943
01:35:11,520 --> 01:35:14,040
I'm done. 
And then Nim immediately 

1944
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:17,800
declares after a Laurie, she's 
like, oh, our father loved like,

1945
01:35:17,800 --> 01:35:20,000
she loved our father. 
And he loved her, but she didn't

1946
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:22,600
understand him. 
Oh, come on. 

1947
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:24,880
That's, like, one of the most 
naive things I've ever heard. 

1948
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:28,800
Like you're telling me that your
father's 15 year plus partner 

1949
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:31,680
like they've been together that 
long and didn't understand him. 

1950
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:34,520
That's what she thought of her 
stepmom, obviously. 

1951
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:40,080
You know, not unusual. 
I think for a daughter like that

1952
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:43,040
should be like, I know my dad 
and you don't know my dad. 

1953
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:44,680
That's a good point. 
That's a very good point. 

1954
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:46,600
Yes, the stepmom kind of thing. 
Or not stepmom. 

1955
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:49,520
It's not like that, not married,
but like, I still don't think 

1956
01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:51,960
it's like, it's childish. 
It's not mature. 

1957
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:53,760
Like it's. 
You're right to point it out 

1958
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:57,000
that it's wrong, but I think 
it's you're. 

1959
01:35:57,240 --> 01:35:58,840
Right. 
Yeah, you're right to point out 

1960
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:01,160
that rub. 
I I didn't take note of that. 

1961
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:02,360
You're totally right to point 
that out. 

1962
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:05,520
That is a thing. 
And Doran then looks at her 

1963
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:08,600
like, are you nuts? 
He doesn't say that. 

1964
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:12,640
But he's like kind of corrects 
her. 

1965
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:15,360
He's like, you know a good heart
and a gentle mind. 

1966
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:17,680
You know it may be all that it's
that may be worth more than 

1967
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:19,400
this, blah, blah, blah. 
He's like you should reconsider 

1968
01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:21,360
what you just said. 
Basically he puts it 

1969
01:36:21,400 --> 01:36:25,600
diplomatically but he like gives
her a look like it is noting. 

1970
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:29,120
She wants revenge. 
Oberon wanted revenge, like she 

1971
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:32,200
there's a difference between 
understanding and agreeing, but 

1972
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:33,920
that that's where she's coming 
from. 

1973
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:37,840
And Doran, even though he's kind
of the, I don't know, putting 

1974
01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:39,760
her in check, he has ulterior 
motives. 

1975
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:43,480
He also wants peace and doesn't 
want this revenge thing to take 

1976
01:36:43,480 --> 01:36:46,040
hold. 
So he's not going to say you're 

1977
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:48,640
right, Oberon did want revenge. 
He's he's not going to get back.

1978
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:51,880
Yeah, he's like actually going 
to have to side with the Sand 

1979
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:57,040
Snakes on this one. 
So but he did. 

1980
01:36:57,040 --> 01:36:59,200
I mean he did raise them to be 
fighters, the older ones. 

1981
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:03,400
I mean he and including Elia who
you know and and Obella as well 

1982
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:07,320
as like Obella is swings her 
morning star at orange trees and

1983
01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:09,160
stuff. 
We're told it's kind of cute but

1984
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:12,880
also like a little bit, you 
know, like shows how they were 

1985
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,800
educated and Nina writes this 
is, it's a reflective of how you

1986
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:18,440
know you can have two people who
really love someone that are 

1987
01:37:18,440 --> 01:37:21,760
really and deeply in in 
someone's life and they have 

1988
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:24,640
very different views on them. 
It's it's it's also very human 

1989
01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:26,760
right. 
Like like a Shaya was correct to

1990
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:30,200
bring up the thing about other 
you know stepmoms or the 

1991
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:33,480
equivalent in this case, this is
a thing, right. 

1992
01:37:33,720 --> 01:37:37,800
You have people that think they 
know someone really well but 

1993
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,320
have never seen this other side 
of them because they that side 

1994
01:37:41,320 --> 01:37:44,680
only comes out with these other 
individuals or people have a 

1995
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:47,360
different type of relationship 
with which is why we can't be 

1996
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:50,680
sure Oberyn included Hilaria and
some of his like most violent 

1997
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:53,520
plottings or some of his doesn't
mean she didn't. 

1998
01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:55,360
We just don't assume it right 
now. 

1999
01:37:55,440 --> 01:37:59,040
The Nina also makes a nice 
comparison here with Ned. 

2000
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:02,280
Rob and Catelyn both clearly 
loved him. 

2001
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:06,440
They reacted to his death very 
differently, like Catelyn still 

2002
01:38:06,440 --> 01:38:08,880
wanted to. 
Was Ellaria Ish here? 

2003
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:10,840
Like she at first was more about
being aggressive. 

2004
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,400
But then you know as this war 
started, started to get going, 

2005
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:15,480
she was like, wait, this is too 
far. 

2006
01:38:15,480 --> 01:38:19,920
This isn't what I wanted. 
I We went peace, actually. 

2007
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:23,480
But that ship had sailed already
by then. 

2008
01:38:23,480 --> 01:38:26,480
So this is another like this 
makes a good pair of parallel to

2009
01:38:26,480 --> 01:38:29,320
Ellaria. 
Especially if we're right that 

2010
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:33,680
Ellaria had a bit of it about 
face after Oberyn's death and 

2011
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:36,440
was like, oh, I wasn't such an 
advocate for peace before now. 

2012
01:38:36,440 --> 01:38:38,000
I am that I've seen both sides 
of enough. 

2013
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:41,120
I've seen Joffrey dying in front
of me and my my, my Paramore 

2014
01:38:41,120 --> 01:38:43,520
dying in front of me. 
Catelyn may have been more gung 

2015
01:38:43,520 --> 01:38:47,480
ho about getting revenge and 
justice for Bran until she saw 

2016
01:38:47,480 --> 01:38:50,520
like all the Riverlands was just
was annihilated and there's all 

2017
01:38:50,520 --> 01:38:54,400
this stuff is happening. 
Like maybe it's just better if 

2018
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:56,800
we just try to find peace now. 
Like this is too much this has 

2019
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:58,120
gone too far. 
But of course it's not her 

2020
01:38:58,120 --> 01:38:59,680
fault. 
But it was also too late. 

2021
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:04,120
Also, to make the parallel more 
Callen's realizing that her 

2022
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:06,600
children are at risk because of 
this, right? 

2023
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:08,480
Like I lost my husband. 
That sucks. 

2024
01:39:08,480 --> 01:39:10,840
It's terrible. 
I want revenge in order to get 

2025
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:12,440
revenge. 
Now I am going to lose my 

2026
01:39:12,440 --> 01:39:13,840
children also. 
OK, never mind. 

2027
01:39:13,840 --> 01:39:15,960
I don't want revenge. 
I'd rather have my children than

2028
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:17,160
revenge. 
Yes, yeah. 

2029
01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:19,320
When she realized that, I mean, 
she may have, she may have had 

2030
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:21,920
some of his cockiness or maybe 
she had it on her own too. 

2031
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:23,320
And they they fueled each other 
with that. 

2032
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:26,120
And then then then reality 
check, you know, comes along. 

2033
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:29,760
So we can wonder what she would 
think if she knew Doran had them

2034
01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:32,480
swear to follow his plans, 
meaning them meaning the Sand 

2035
01:39:32,480 --> 01:39:33,880
Snakes on his on their father's 
bones. 

2036
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:36,200
Because as much as he openly 
advocates for peace in that 

2037
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:42,240
scene with the skulls presented,
he can't actually do that yet 

2038
01:39:42,440 --> 01:39:46,520
because he finds out that Cersei
is planning to murder Trystane. 

2039
01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:49,440
Like it's definitely not over 
yet. 

2040
01:39:49,440 --> 01:39:52,320
Like they can't just rest, sit 
back and be like we're not part 

2041
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:54,560
of this. 
Not only is Quentin over there 

2042
01:39:54,560 --> 01:39:58,480
trying to like get Danny on 
their team, which obviously that

2043
01:39:58,480 --> 01:40:01,360
didn't work, but it's not 
necessarily the end of the 

2044
01:40:01,360 --> 01:40:04,480
potential between a Dornish 
Daenerys alliance. 

2045
01:40:04,480 --> 01:40:08,560
Regardless, that's that's a much
later thing either way. 

2046
01:40:10,040 --> 01:40:12,840
He can't just take a step back 
and be like we're not involved 

2047
01:40:12,840 --> 01:40:17,640
because Cersei is aggressively 
coming after them, so. 

2048
01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:19,240
He doesn't tell Ilaria any of 
this. 

2049
01:40:19,240 --> 01:40:22,640
Like when Ilaria leaves the room
because of the bloodthirstiness 

2050
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:25,480
that she's just done with 
hearing about, That's when he 

2051
01:40:25,480 --> 01:40:28,600
pivots to like, OK, well, Ilaria
is right about some things, but 

2052
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:30,080
I'm not telling her about this 
part. 

2053
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:32,360
There's no reason to include her
in any of this news. 

2054
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:34,760
She's seen enough. 
She's been affected enough. 

2055
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:37,160
But this is what's happening. 
Cersei wants to kill Trystane, 

2056
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:40,320
and they're like, what? 
They're so shocked. 

2057
01:40:40,320 --> 01:40:42,640
And Arya Hotas. 
Like, I wouldn't have thought it

2058
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:45,000
possible to shock the Sand 
Snakes, but here we are, you 

2059
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:48,320
know? 
And of course, what's happening 

2060
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:51,760
for that is let's let's review 
the plans. 

2061
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:55,080
The two of them are going to 
King's Landing, right? 

2062
01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:57,640
And then Obar is going to High 
Hermitage with Aryo Hota. 

2063
01:40:58,720 --> 01:41:01,320
Whatever happens, Ilari is going
to find out, right? 

2064
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:03,880
Whatever happens at High 
Hermitage, whatever happens in 

2065
01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:08,040
King's Landing, Whatever else 
happens in King, in Sunspear, 

2066
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:11,680
news will reach the Hellholt. 
They're in. 

2067
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:12,840
They're connected. 
They're important. 

2068
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:15,960
House and Dorne and Harman. 
Eller wants to be a part of 

2069
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:18,480
things, and the reason that's 
important is that's where she 

2070
01:41:18,480 --> 01:41:19,920
went. 
She went back to the Hellholt. 

2071
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:23,080
She is there now, as far as we 
know, with one of her daughters,

2072
01:41:23,080 --> 01:41:25,960
only one of them, Laresa, who is
the youngest, seven years old. 

2073
01:41:26,440 --> 01:41:32,680
So in terms of outlook, I think 
she's a rare character where I 

2074
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:35,160
feel pretty optimistic about her
survival. 

2075
01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:40,400
Because she's not obviously 
involved, because she's very far

2076
01:41:40,400 --> 01:41:45,240
from the others, because she's 
not likely to make an enemy of 

2077
01:41:45,440 --> 01:41:51,680
any Dragons or Dothraki or young
Griff's team. 

2078
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:53,760
The Golden Company probably 
isn't going to go anywhere near 

2079
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:56,160
the hell Holt, right? 
Like Ariana's up there dealing 

2080
01:41:56,160 --> 01:41:57,800
with them, but. 
She's not in harm's way. 

2081
01:41:57,800 --> 01:41:59,480
She doesn't put herself in 
harm's way. 

2082
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:01,840
Hell's Holt? 
Probably not a target for 

2083
01:42:01,840 --> 01:42:05,120
anyone, so. 
Like, he may lead their forces 

2084
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:06,600
elsewhere, but she won't go with
them. 

2085
01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:08,760
She'd stay there, right? 
She's again not a warrior. 

2086
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:10,000
There's no reason for her to go 
with. 

2087
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:12,000
It's not like she's rooted there
permanently. 

2088
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:13,440
There might be a reason for her 
to leave. 

2089
01:42:13,440 --> 01:42:15,240
There could be a reason for her 
to go somewhere else. 

2090
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:19,400
But there's no obvious oh, this 
will draw her out. 

2091
01:42:19,400 --> 01:42:21,560
This thing that's coming will 
happen, and that'll bring her 

2092
01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:22,760
out. 
But no, there's just nothing 

2093
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:25,280
that's that clear. 
So her daughter Laresa also 

2094
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:27,680
because she's with her and is so
young, I'm. 

2095
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:29,360
I'm pretty optimistic about her 
too. 

2096
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:33,600
Real quick. 
There's a good chance to drop 

2097
01:42:33,600 --> 01:42:37,840
the Laresa name theory. 
Which is that OK? 

2098
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:41,720
Consider the four names of. 
My favorite thing to talk? 

2099
01:42:41,960 --> 01:42:44,320
About Yeah, I think this would 
perk you up a little bit. 

2100
01:42:45,080 --> 01:42:49,520
Elaria's first three daughters 
are Elia, Obela, and Duraya, 

2101
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:55,200
presumably Elia's name for Elia.
The there's the sister, Obela's 

2102
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:57,280
name for Oberyn, and Duraya for 
Duran. 

2103
01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:02,480
So there's one daughter for each
of the three sips, the three of 

2104
01:43:02,480 --> 01:43:05,320
them, the three siblings that 
that group, so one for each of 

2105
01:43:05,320 --> 01:43:09,000
them. 
So if they were to name their 

2106
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:12,200
next child after another family 
member, the most likely one is 

2107
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:13,920
their mother, who was the 
Princess of Doran. 

2108
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:17,360
She wasn't the their father was 
the consort, so he was not 

2109
01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:20,120
Martel and she was So these 
she's the most likely, 

2110
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,720
especially because it's girl to 
woman, but also because she was 

2111
01:43:22,720 --> 01:43:25,920
the actual Princess. 
So to be fair, we don't know 

2112
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:27,400
their father's name or house 
either. 

2113
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:30,680
But obviously the Princess of 
Doran is a much more important 

2114
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:32,160
figure. 
So the bummer? 

2115
01:43:32,160 --> 01:43:34,440
We don't know who that was, but 
Laresa is a great guest for her 

2116
01:43:34,440 --> 01:43:35,920
name and and who came up with 
that theory show. 

2117
01:43:36,320 --> 01:43:39,800
I've been seeing it from like 
people like Joanna Lannister and

2118
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,520
and folks in Tumblr circles for 
as long as I've been in this, in

2119
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:46,160
this fandom, to be honest, 
because we have a long standing 

2120
01:43:46,320 --> 01:43:49,840
conversations about the unnamed 
Princess of Dorne and about the 

2121
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:51,760
Dead Ladies Club and about all 
that. 

2122
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:54,440
And yeah, people I I believe 
I'll attribute it. 

2123
01:43:54,440 --> 01:43:56,680
I think it was Joanna Lannister,
I think that's kind of. 

2124
01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:58,160
What I thought too. 
But I didn't want. 

2125
01:43:58,160 --> 01:43:59,920
I wasn't. 
Believe that was where I first 

2126
01:43:59,960 --> 01:44:02,120
saw it. 
Because her and I, they're like,

2127
01:44:02,120 --> 01:44:07,280
we've both asked George this 
question at panels at Q&A. 

2128
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:11,400
SI asked him, and he gave me the
one of the most disappointing 

2129
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:13,040
answers I ever got. 
Which is, well, she's dead 

2130
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:17,040
promptly, right after he read a 
whole section about dead 

2131
01:44:17,040 --> 01:44:21,480
characters. 
So, OK, but so, but Joanna. 

2132
01:44:21,880 --> 01:44:25,400
Lauren, she did not take that 
for an answer either. 

2133
01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:30,560
And we went to another Q&A a few
years later and we were in like 

2134
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:33,560
Redwood City in California. 
And that's when I asked about 

2135
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:36,800
Blood Raven. 
But she asked specifically about

2136
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,240
the Laureza theory, like she 
used. 

2137
01:44:39,240 --> 01:44:40,760
She used that theory. 
She's like, I'm going to come at

2138
01:44:40,760 --> 01:44:43,240
it from a different angle. 
I'm going to give him the theory

2139
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:45,680
and he can choose to like. 
Seize on that if. 

2140
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:46,960
You and he just was like, I'm 
not. 

2141
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:48,880
I don't know. 
Yeah, he just didn't know. 

2142
01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:52,000
So Laura, Laura's seven is the 
Laura's seven. 

2143
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:56,160
Like I said with Larry at the 
Hellhole, Daraya is age 8 and 

2144
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:59,240
he's at the Water Gardens. 
This I'm a little more nervous 

2145
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:01,240
about her because I'm a little 
wary of what might happen at the

2146
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:03,120
Water Gardens later. 
I mean, she's a 8 year old 

2147
01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:05,400
child, so it's not as likely 
that harm will come to her. 

2148
01:45:05,400 --> 01:45:08,320
But this is this is that's not 
something I you would want to 

2149
01:45:08,320 --> 01:45:11,600
bet on too much in this story. 
Can I point out how grim it is 

2150
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:14,600
that we when when we consider 
the outlook of characters that 

2151
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:17,760
the default question is will 
they live or not, even when 

2152
01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:21,160
we're talking about children? 
8 year olds swimming in the 

2153
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:23,240
pools like, yeah, she might not 
make their outlook. 

2154
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:24,200
Probably. 
Death. 

2155
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:27,120
Yeah, Yeah. 
That doesn't look great for her.

2156
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:29,200
No, I, I she's probably going to
be OK. 

2157
01:45:29,200 --> 01:45:31,640
But I do worry a little bit 
because there we gave a theory 

2158
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,640
about the Water Gardens. 
It's not a super strong theory. 

2159
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:37,200
It's more of a head cannon like 
a things that line up makes me a

2160
01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:40,760
little seems a little ominous. 
But we lay that out in Nymeria 

2161
01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:43,640
part one, the Mother Royne 
episode, some comparisons to 

2162
01:45:43,640 --> 01:45:46,720
some things that got destroyed 
and the Water Gardens. 

2163
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:49,600
So might just be a reach there. 
But I hope it is. 

2164
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:51,480
I hope it's a theory that's 
wrong, but it is. 

2165
01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:54,600
I will at least be able to claim
credit for it. 

2166
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:58,920
If we're like, well, either 
we're wrong and so this 8 year 

2167
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:02,000
old girl survives or she doesn't
and we at least get to be right 

2168
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:06,360
about our theory. 
Like, oh Bella, who is age 12, 

2169
01:46:07,080 --> 01:46:09,840
is now cup bearer to the 
Castellin's wife at Sunspear. 

2170
01:46:09,840 --> 01:46:11,960
The Castellin is a Martel. 
Manfree Martel. 

2171
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,160
He's very old. 
He's he's so old that he's like,

2172
01:46:14,160 --> 01:46:17,000
I think he might be blind. 
I know that's the seneschal 

2173
01:46:17,000 --> 01:46:19,080
ricasso, but Manfree Martel is 
an older man. 

2174
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:21,760
Anyway, I'm concerned about 
anyone in Sunspear, like 

2175
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:23,440
Sunspear stuff could happen 
there. 

2176
01:46:23,440 --> 01:46:25,800
But still, I'm not super worried
about it because I I really 

2177
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:28,440
don't think armies are coming to
Dorne. 

2178
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:32,040
And if they do, it'll be Danny. 
And I don't think Danny's going 

2179
01:46:32,040 --> 01:46:35,080
to be like shredding the Dornish
up, like ripping them apart, you

2180
01:46:35,080 --> 01:46:36,600
know what I mean? 
Especially not children. 

2181
01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:38,880
So I'm not too worried about 
that. 

2182
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:41,560
But there is all, you know, you 
got to acknowledge the potential

2183
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:47,520
danger there and she and like I 
said in that quote from Alaria, 

2184
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:51,560
Nobela and Elia worship Obara, 
Nymeria and Tain, their eldest, 

2185
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:52,920
which she doesn't mention 
Sorella in that. 

2186
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:58,760
Do they not worship Sorella? 
Maybe not. 

2187
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:01,080
They just not know her. 
Sorella is kind of an always off

2188
01:47:01,080 --> 01:47:03,280
doing her own thing and they 
just don't know her very well. 

2189
01:47:03,280 --> 01:47:05,560
They might like her quite a bit 
if they knew her better, but 

2190
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:07,240
yeah. 
Named two daughters after 

2191
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:09,920
himself. 
Loved himself the most of all. 

2192
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:12,080
Annabella. 
Yeah, Annabella. 

2193
01:47:12,120 --> 01:47:14,800
He's like, you know. 
It's true. 

2194
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:17,520
You got to like that. 
Yeah. 

2195
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:19,840
He's he's 2 for me, one for you,
you know? 

2196
01:47:24,240 --> 01:47:27,040
Yeah, So, yeah, So what? 
I'm not sure about the Sorella 

2197
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:28,440
thing here. 
That's kind of funny omission. 

2198
01:47:28,440 --> 01:47:30,440
Like again, Sorella just not 
included there. 

2199
01:47:30,440 --> 01:47:32,080
But no, it's just because she's,
she's her own person. 

2200
01:47:32,080 --> 01:47:34,160
She's a good example of someone 
who is independent, like Sorella

2201
01:47:34,160 --> 01:47:36,000
does her own thing. 
She's not wrapped up in these 

2202
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:38,040
politics. 
Yeah, she wants to be a Maester.

2203
01:47:38,040 --> 01:47:40,160
Well, she's kind of following in
her footsteps, her father's 

2204
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:43,240
footsteps a bit by doing that. 
But yeah, because Oberyn went to

2205
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:46,520
the Citadel too. 
So again, Ilia is with Arian, A 

2206
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:49,880
notable part of her two Wins of 
Winter chapters so far, which 

2207
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:52,880
we've covered both individual 
episodes for. 

2208
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:58,720
And Elia has major Liana vibes, 
Major Liana Stark vibes like 

2209
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:01,440
down to being good with horses. 
Down to being wild and 

2210
01:48:01,440 --> 01:48:03,040
aggressive. 
Down to being promiscuous 

2211
01:48:03,320 --> 01:48:06,560
flirty, all that. 
Well, she won't know Liana was 

2212
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:09,760
promiscuous, but she was 
probably not like, shy about 

2213
01:48:10,240 --> 01:48:12,240
sexual matters. 
So and then there's this. 

2214
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:15,120
So being compared to Liana is 
not a good thing as far as your 

2215
01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:17,520
outlook for survival. 
It's like, that's a tragic 

2216
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:20,120
figure, right? 
Like, oh, but there's. 

2217
01:48:20,120 --> 01:48:23,080
And there's also this ominous 
moment in the caves where it's 

2218
01:48:23,080 --> 01:48:25,600
like where you can't do that, 
you can't just go off like that.

2219
01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:28,200
You could die, die, die, die, 
Echoes. 

2220
01:48:28,200 --> 01:48:32,120
And it's like, whoa, that's not 
subtle, is it? 

2221
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:35,080
So wait, who you talking to me? 
Is that she? 

2222
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:37,000
Wait, who's going to die? 
All of you, or just one? 

2223
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:39,080
Or? 
I don't know, But it's. 

2224
01:48:39,080 --> 01:48:45,120
Yeah, I would say it's hard to 
imagine all of hilarious 

2225
01:48:45,120 --> 01:48:47,520
children surviving. 
And if you had to pick one that 

2226
01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:48,920
might die, it's going to be this
one. 

2227
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:51,320
Elia is with Ariana, who herself
is. 

2228
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:54,560
Ariana's survival also is very 
much in doubt. 

2229
01:48:55,440 --> 01:48:59,120
Characters that do put 
themselves in harm's way, yes. 

2230
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:02,480
Very much in harm's way and 
could be going headlong into 

2231
01:49:02,480 --> 01:49:05,680
the. 
Arms of young Griff Fagon Aegon 

2232
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:07,640
the 6th. 
Which that won't end. 

2233
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:11,680
Well, I don't think so. 
Yeah, it's hard to imagine all 

2234
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:13,880
of Hilari's kids living, but 
hey, we could be wrong and be 

2235
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:16,720
great. 
Be a nice little nugget of 

2236
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:18,040
happiness at the end of the 
story. 

2237
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:19,640
If you had some characters you 
could look at and go, you know 

2238
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:21,520
what, they came out all right. 
You know, yeah, she's had her. 

2239
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:23,160
She's already been heavily 
traumatized. 

2240
01:49:23,160 --> 01:49:25,040
So she doesn't need any more. 
So it's not like she's going to 

2241
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:27,040
come out that great. 
You know, she's already lost her

2242
01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:30,240
lover, but it doesn't have to 
get too much worse for her. 

2243
01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:33,200
So yeah, so fairly positive 
outlook going forward, even if, 

2244
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:35,160
you know, she still has to live 
with with with what's happened 

2245
01:49:35,160 --> 01:49:37,080
so far. 
And of course, Doran is going to

2246
01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:39,480
go through a lot before it's all
said and done. 

2247
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:43,160
Let's talk really briefly about 
the TV show. 

2248
01:49:43,240 --> 01:49:45,920
Obviously, it was very different
just to to acknowledge this 

2249
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:48,240
because there's not as much to 
say because it was so different 

2250
01:49:48,480 --> 01:49:52,000
of characters who were included 
on the show but changed as 

2251
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:54,040
opposed as opposed to cut 
entirely. 

2252
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:58,440
So I'm not counting Stoneheart, 
which is kind of a Gray area 

2253
01:49:58,440 --> 01:50:00,920
because Catelyn was included, 
but I'm not counting like Aryan 

2254
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:03,720
or Victorian. 
So characters who were included,

2255
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:08,440
She's probably if not possibly 
if not definitely the most 

2256
01:50:08,440 --> 01:50:12,160
changed, the most opposite from 
her book character. 

2257
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:14,200
In some ways it's a very simple 
change. 

2258
01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:15,920
Just make her the exact 
opposite. 

2259
01:50:15,920 --> 01:50:18,480
Other than like her gender, You 
know she's still a woman, but 

2260
01:50:18,480 --> 01:50:20,000
like everything else is the 
opposite. 

2261
01:50:20,000 --> 01:50:22,760
Like she's an out. 
Instead of an outspoken advocate

2262
01:50:22,760 --> 01:50:26,120
for peace, she becomes a person 
so bent on revenge that she's 

2263
01:50:26,120 --> 01:50:28,680
willing to murder her lover's 
brother like she's willing to 

2264
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:31,160
murder Oberyn. 
I mean Adoran because just in 

2265
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:33,560
her quest to get revenge for 
Oberyn, it's like, and to talk 

2266
01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:35,520
her daughters into it. 
Not that they needed much 

2267
01:50:35,520 --> 01:50:37,480
convincing, but also, those 
aren't her daughters in the 

2268
01:50:37,480 --> 01:50:39,000
book. 
Those are the elder Sand Snakes 

2269
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:41,800
are her daughters in the show, 
but they aren't in the books. 

2270
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:43,920
That's a pretty huge change as 
well, you know. 

2271
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:45,840
Like you're saying though, if 
you're looking to this for 

2272
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:49,480
potential clues. 
Will some other character who is

2273
01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:51,320
hell bent on revenge be willing 
to murder? 

2274
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:53,960
Dorian is. 
That something that could come 

2275
01:50:54,080 --> 01:50:56,200
out possible. 
I think we've theorized that 

2276
01:50:56,200 --> 01:50:58,240
that will be Dark Star, who was 
not in the show and the. 

2277
01:50:58,240 --> 01:51:02,440
Per the person that is already 
sort of leading the anti like 

2278
01:51:02,440 --> 01:51:05,240
leading Doran into war and do it
going against the Prince of 

2279
01:51:05,240 --> 01:51:08,480
Doran's wishes. 
So he might be maybe he turns 

2280
01:51:08,480 --> 01:51:11,360
these maybe he somehow wins 
against Hotah and Obara. 

2281
01:51:11,360 --> 01:51:15,600
Maybe even brings Obara onto his
side somehow and then they go 

2282
01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:17,320
after Doran. 
So that could happen. 

2283
01:51:17,320 --> 01:51:18,440
Yeah something like that could 
happen. 

2284
01:51:18,440 --> 01:51:21,080
It just won't involve Illaria 
quite quite obviously. 

2285
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:25,880
And cause and and the ending 
that Illaria and was it Nymeria?

2286
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:28,280
Which which of the daughter, 
which of the daughters died in 

2287
01:51:28,280 --> 01:51:29,360
prison with her? 
It doesn't matter. 

2288
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:32,200
One of them die. 
The two die together in prison 

2289
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:36,520
there and and Ilaria has to see 
her daughter die and then sit 

2290
01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:40,680
there with her corpse forever. 
It's possible. 

2291
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:43,720
That's maybe what happens to the
2 Sand Snakes that are going to 

2292
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:45,760
the like. 
Maybe Nymeria and Tyene who are 

2293
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:47,200
going to King's Landing. 
Maybe something like that 

2294
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:48,360
happens to them while they're up
there. 

2295
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:50,800
So that could happen. 
It just won't be Ilaria, it'll 

2296
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:55,640
be one of them instead. 
So just like I don't expect all 

2297
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,520
of Hilaria's four daughters to 
survive, although I wouldn't be 

2298
01:51:58,520 --> 01:52:02,040
surprised if three of them did. 
O'bara, Nymeria, Tyene, Sorella,

2299
01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:04,280
all of four of them surviving 
seems very unlikely. 

2300
01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:06,400
Sorella's probably got the best 
odds because she's the least 

2301
01:52:06,400 --> 01:52:09,240
involved in violent stuff, but 
she's also right where Euron's 

2302
01:52:09,240 --> 01:52:12,040
about to strike, so that's just 
not necessarily in a great place

2303
01:52:12,120 --> 01:52:14,800
either. 
She's not seeking danger out, at

2304
01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:17,120
least, so maybe. 
Maybe that gives her a little 

2305
01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:19,480
leg up. 
But it's all going to come down 

2306
01:52:19,480 --> 01:52:22,960
to the whim of the creator, me 
and George RR Merton. 

2307
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:25,920
Maybe not the whim I was going 
to say. 

2308
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,960
I hesitate to call it a whim. 
It seems like a very deliberate.

2309
01:52:29,360 --> 01:52:33,320
Yeah, planned and plotted out. 
Yes, It's not the whim it. 

2310
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:35,120
Could be a whim but it probably 
won't be. 

2311
01:52:35,480 --> 01:52:38,200
Yeah so it's it is possible some
of those TV arcs are simplified 

2312
01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:40,160
versions of what they got from 
George. 

2313
01:52:40,160 --> 01:52:43,040
You know different character 
like dark like I said dark Star 

2314
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:45,200
doing what the vindictive 
version of the Lari is doing 

2315
01:52:45,200 --> 01:52:47,200
just the little law of 
conservation of characters. 

2316
01:52:47,840 --> 01:52:50,320
But that's got nothing to do 
with book Hilaria directly. 

2317
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:54,920
It's possible as well that you 
know something changes or we 

2318
01:52:54,920 --> 01:52:56,440
find it was something we haven't
thought of. 

2319
01:52:56,440 --> 01:52:58,520
You know they they've got 
brought up in in a couple of 

2320
01:52:58,520 --> 01:53:00,200
weeks we're going to cover an 
episode. 

2321
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:04,200
We're going to do an episode on 
some of George's notes that have

2322
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:07,040
been unearthed and that is 
actually going to touch on some 

2323
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:08,680
of this stuff which is 
interesting. 

2324
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:11,200
So we'll so hold some of your 
some of y'all may have some 

2325
01:53:11,520 --> 01:53:14,240
unaddressed thoughts that we may
address in that which which 

2326
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:16,360
includes some of the theories 
and and things that are going on

2327
01:53:16,360 --> 01:53:18,320
here. 
Also, I want to, as we make our 

2328
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:21,360
way out of this episode, I want 
to shout out in Deer of Armor, 

2329
01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:22,440
the actress who played 
Hilarious. 

2330
01:53:22,440 --> 01:53:25,160
And even though she was not what
we wanted from that character, 

2331
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:26,800
given she was so much different 
from the book version. 

2332
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:30,200
It's almost like it's really 
hard to see a character that is 

2333
01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:33,040
so different and unique as an 
advocate for peace being turned 

2334
01:53:33,040 --> 01:53:37,040
into the opposite of that. 
Because you want that to be 

2335
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:39,160
present in the story. 
You want that The peace advocate

2336
01:53:39,160 --> 01:53:42,640
is such an important thing in a 
story about the horrors of war. 

2337
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:44,480
I mean, that's not the only 
thing it's about, of course, but

2338
01:53:44,480 --> 01:53:48,600
it's just a overwhelming theme, 
is that war is terrible and that

2339
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:52,200
all this power is terrible, and 
that not having that character 

2340
01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:55,120
was a it was frustrating. 
And you know, Despite that, I 

2341
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:58,000
still picture into your Varma as
hilarious. 

2342
01:53:58,000 --> 01:54:01,320
And when I when I read scenes 
with her, so despite her not 

2343
01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:04,520
actually playing that character 
really I see her. 

2344
01:54:04,680 --> 01:54:07,760
I do too like the whale like the
the scream went over and die 

2345
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:10,400
dies is just. 
Like that is she's such a good 

2346
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:14,000
actress, so let's go through. 
She is now 50 years old. 

2347
01:54:14,000 --> 01:54:17,240
She's lives in England. 
She was in the show Roam. 

2348
01:54:17,680 --> 01:54:21,000
She was in the show Obi Wan. 
She was, she was in Mission 

2349
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:23,680
Impossible. 
She's in the as of current 

2350
01:54:23,680 --> 01:54:26,640
season of Doctor Who, which is 
season 14 as of this episode. 

2351
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:30,600
She did voices for Dragon Age, 
Inquisition, Mass Effect, 

2352
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:33,920
Andromeda, World of Warcraft, 
Battle for Azeroth, and she's 

2353
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:39,160
currently recording the Witches 
novels of Terry Pratchett, which

2354
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:43,040
are not out yet, but she's like 
the narrator for that, or at 

2355
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:45,040
least playing a part of it. 
I'm not sure if it's like full 

2356
01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:47,680
audio production or not, but 
yeah, she's great. 

2357
01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:50,320
Looking forward to seeing her in
more things in the future. 

2358
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:52,680
She's also popular, I guess. 
Maybe. 

2359
01:54:52,840 --> 01:54:54,960
Yeah, you didn't say it in Vox 
Machina. 

2360
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:58,520
Which is not something I watch 
but I know is popular among 

2361
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:01,960
listeners of ours. 
Cross section you know So yeah. 

2362
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:04,360
So she that's a really good 
look. 

2363
01:55:04,360 --> 01:55:05,520
Like what you're saying a Shay 
like that's. 

2364
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:07,960
A good example. 
It's a kind of a real testament 

2365
01:55:07,960 --> 01:55:10,640
to her skills. 
Like we did not like what that 

2366
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:13,200
character, how that character 
was written, but she still owned

2367
01:55:13,200 --> 01:55:16,160
the role and she's still 
memorable in it. 

2368
01:55:16,160 --> 01:55:19,240
It was like, man, that plot 
line, very forgettable. 

2369
01:55:19,240 --> 01:55:23,600
Except her, Yeah, like she just 
some people just have they're 

2370
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:27,120
just that good, you know, no 
shame, No shade on the other 

2371
01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:30,400
actors in that plot line, you 
know, especially like Alexander 

2372
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:32,600
Siddiq who's a fantastic actor 
who's just given this role that 

2373
01:55:32,600 --> 01:55:35,520
was just kind of God, Alexander 
Siddiq, who's one of the most 

2374
01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:38,080
popularly fan casted characters 
like actors. 

2375
01:55:38,080 --> 01:55:42,400
For Doran Martel, like so many 
people thought, that's who Doran

2376
01:55:42,400 --> 01:55:45,000
should be. 
And yet, no, what a waste. 

2377
01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:48,000
Yeah, even he's like, even he's 
a little salty about it 

2378
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:49,160
afterwards. 
Like he's he's pull. 

2379
01:55:49,160 --> 01:55:51,760
He's like diplomatic about it. 
You can tell he doesn't want to 

2380
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:56,280
talk about it like a few times. 
It's like seen quotes in like 

2381
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:58,480
magazines or on YouTube or 
little clips. 

2382
01:55:58,480 --> 01:56:01,840
It's like he's just, I mean, 
that's what they did. 

2383
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:03,640
They made their choices, you 
know, I think about how many 

2384
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:06,360
people might have been in his, 
like, yeah, or his comments. 

2385
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:08,080
They're like Doran's. 
Such a cool car. 

2386
01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:11,240
Like, he has so much he's going 
to, you know, like he probably 

2387
01:56:11,240 --> 01:56:14,760
was influenced by the fandom to 
expect more too. 

2388
01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:17,080
Yeah. 
So bummer bug, bummer. 

2389
01:56:17,320 --> 01:56:18,960
Remember at You know when the 
show was on I? 

2390
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:21,640
Hadn't read the books yet and 
you know, up through season. 

2391
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:26,320
Four, I was excited about these 
Dornish characters, LeBron and 

2392
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:29,320
Laurie and so on. 
When we got to season five, I 

2393
01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:31,160
was like immediately, even 
though, like, we're trying to 

2394
01:56:31,160 --> 01:56:33,000
be. 
Positive and tactful. 

2395
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:37,480
But I was still so so frustrated
by the Sand Snake scenes and 

2396
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:42,560
baffled even like I and and I 
didn't have this expectation of 

2397
01:56:42,560 --> 01:56:44,800
how great it was in the books to
be upset at me. 

2398
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:47,480
Even without that, I was still 
frustrated and baffled. 

2399
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:49,440
So I can't just regular bad. 
Yeah. 

2400
01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:53,560
OK, so the. 
Trivia answer. 

2401
01:56:53,560 --> 01:56:55,800
Where did Oberyn? 
Martell Foster at its house 

2402
01:56:55,800 --> 01:56:58,200
Corgile, the sands Castle 
sandstone. 

2403
01:56:58,200 --> 01:56:59,680
Again, he tells the scorpion 
story. 

2404
01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:02,080
It's nice, fits so well there 
that he was fostered there. 

2405
01:57:02,080 --> 01:57:03,760
He's the one that tells the 
scorpion story. 

2406
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:05,400
It fits nicely into a little 
anecdote about it. 

2407
01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:06,960
He's like I'd rather have the 
scorpions in Cersei. 

2408
01:57:07,520 --> 01:57:10,000
Smoothly done, George. 
A good example of how well he 

2409
01:57:10,920 --> 01:57:15,560
slides in historical anecdotes, 
makes them fit in without it 

2410
01:57:15,840 --> 01:57:18,960
being like a big divergent from 
what else is happening. 

2411
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:21,520
It's yeah, it just fits. 
A nicely good example of that. 

2412
01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:24,920
We will of course be back next 
week. 

2413
01:57:25,080 --> 01:57:28,640
In the meantime, here are some 
other episodes you might want to

2414
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:30,720
check out. 
The Aryan Winds of Winter 

2415
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:35,160
chapters are a good example. 
The two of those, there's very 

2416
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:38,840
fun to talk about what's coming.
Nymeria, of course. 

2417
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:41,760
The Mother Royne episode. 
I'm not talking about Nymeria. 

2418
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:45,080
The Sand Snake. 
This is the Nymeria AS AKA the 

2419
01:57:45,240 --> 01:57:48,920
first Princess of United Dorn 
and hardcore houses, which was 

2420
01:57:48,920 --> 01:57:51,760
just last week. 
We talked about Corgile and and 

2421
01:57:51,760 --> 01:57:54,560
Uller and and Umber and Mormont.
Those aren't mentioned in this 

2422
01:57:54,560 --> 01:57:56,360
episode, but they're part of 
that one. 

2423
01:57:56,840 --> 01:57:59,000
And I probably mentioned some 
other ones that I'm now 

2424
01:57:59,000 --> 01:58:01,680
forgetting about because you 
know our discussions, you never 

2425
01:58:01,680 --> 01:58:03,040
know exactly where they're going
to go. 

2426
01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:05,720
We have a lot of notes. 
This was a 19 page document for 

2427
01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:08,600
this episode, but there's always
a few things that that we talk 

2428
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:11,480
about that we didn't plan for. 
Sometimes that's other episodes.

2429
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:14,520
So I know there's always a one 
or two that I oh like the Lyseni

2430
01:58:14,520 --> 01:58:18,720
episode we talked about least 
quite a bit in this one And that

2431
01:58:18,720 --> 01:58:20,600
is also when we have an episode 
on Sean. 

2432
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:25,000
Would you like to acquire a cat 
while we're doing our outro 

2433
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:25,960
here? 
I could do that. 

2434
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:28,440
Sean gives a he gave a knowing 
nod for those of you not 

2435
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:29,480
looking. 
He's like yes, a. 

2436
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:31,400
Cat Oh yeah, I've got. 
A cat right down here. 

2437
01:58:31,400 --> 01:58:33,440
A cat of black and white, in 
fact. 

2438
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:37,160
So thank you all to those of you
who are supporters of us, 

2439
01:58:37,160 --> 01:58:42,200
Whether you do so on Patreon at 
patreon.com/history of Westeros 

2440
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,760
or if you are a Spotify 
supporter, you can sign up 

2441
01:58:44,760 --> 01:58:47,240
directly through Spotify. 
If you already have a Spotify 

2442
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:50,720
subscription, you can kind of 
just seamlessly combine the two 

2443
01:58:50,720 --> 01:58:52,560
things. 
Look at that, A cat of black and

2444
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:57,680
white, I will rub the belly. 
He has quite a bib, he's a good 

2445
01:58:57,680 --> 01:59:02,400
boy, a big boy. 
Thanks as well to Nina. 

2446
01:59:02,400 --> 01:59:06,440
Congrats again to Nina for her 
pending nuptials for her recent 

2447
01:59:06,440 --> 01:59:09,440
engagement and as well to James,
her partner. 

2448
01:59:09,800 --> 01:59:13,360
Thanks to Joey and Jesse for the
music. 

2449
01:59:13,360 --> 01:59:19,320
Thanks to Bran the Builder for 
being a part of our front end 

2450
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:22,440
technology, our intro for House 
of the Dragon. 

2451
01:59:22,440 --> 01:59:24,240
Here's Xerxes the cat also on 
screen. 

2452
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:27,320
And Sean's got a cat. 
So also thank you to Michael 

2453
01:59:27,320 --> 01:59:30,120
Clarkfeld for our video intro 
and for the maps you see behind 

2454
01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:32,360
me, not for the posters you see 
behind Sean. 

2455
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:35,280
Michael Clarkfeld did not design
the movie posters for either 

2456
01:59:35,280 --> 01:59:38,720
Star Wars or Amelie. 
So, you know, set the record 

2457
01:59:38,720 --> 01:59:41,880
straight on that one. 
Thanks as well to our Benjaner. 

2458
01:59:42,080 --> 01:59:43,760
But he could have. 
He could have, Yeah. 

2459
01:59:43,760 --> 01:59:45,480
Sean has the skills for that. 
Yeah. 

2460
01:59:46,400 --> 01:59:50,200
He chose. 
Not to Oh, look at that getting 

2461
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:52,600
nose bumps there from your 
Kitty. 

2462
01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:57,200
Well, with that little bit of 
sweetness we shall leave you 

2463
01:59:57,600 --> 02:00:00,560
until next time. 
We hope you'd enjoyed this 

2464
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:05,960
episode on the peaceable and 
respectable. 

2465
02:00:05,960 --> 02:00:09,360
I'd say a person to be like 
hilarious and. 

2466
02:00:10,280 --> 02:00:14,440
Rarely is there a character that
I say be more like them in the 

2467
02:00:14,440 --> 02:00:16,360
story. 
It's hard, but she is a good 

2468
02:00:16,360 --> 02:00:18,440
example of that, perhaps one of 
the top ones. 

2469
02:00:18,440 --> 02:00:22,120
So be more like Hilaria in real 
life and we'll see you next 

2470
02:00:22,120 --> 02:00:29,440
time. 
Until then, Valarri Ritas the.