In A Song of Ice and Fire, as in real life, there are cycles of
violence. Countries, kingdoms, families,
houses, individuals fall into the trap of blood, debts,
revenge, vendettas, vengeance. Sometimes you call it justice.
The fact that there's so many words for it kind of helps sell
the point a bit. There's so many ways to describe
this concept and it goes on and on.
It tends to, as each fresh grievance must be answered.
They never feel like it's quite equal.
Like now we've settled it, now it always just kind of starts up
again. Or maybe not always, but often
it starts up again. Sometimes there's a resolution,
but sometimes that's just a reprieve, not an actual end of
the cycle. It's like dormant or
hibernating, without a third power to intervene.
The end only comes when one side is ended, if they don't settle
it on their own. But when they don't, that is
often the only other way it gets settled.
And often there is no third power to step in, no independent
arbiter, no central authority to lay out what actually is justice
rather than what passes for justice.
But whether or not it has any sway, that sentiment always
exists. There's always people, even
those on the winning side, even on the side with the more just
grievance, who hold true to the conviction that these cycles
must end, that peace is more important than vengeance or
anything really for Song of Ice and Fire, as in real life, as
well as such individuals as the Green Grace said, peace is the
Pearl beyond price. Now, she probably has a
political agenda when she makes that statement, but that doesn't
mean it isn't true. But Galaza Galare and her
machinations, or lack thereof, are not the topic of today.
It's another advocate for peace, someone who has seen the cycles
up close and personal, and is at risk of seeing even more
hilarious. Sand is our topic today.
She's a mother of four, one of whom is old enough to be joining
the ongoing Game of Thrones just now.
Really. Right?
Right as this, right where the story is.
She doesn't want to see that daughter, nor the other three of
her daughters become part of that cycle of violence.
But of course, she doesn't have full say over this.
That makes for quite a contrast to her lover, the father of
these four children, the infamous Red Viper, the man who,
perhaps most of all personifies these cycles of violence within
a single character. You could argue Blackwood and
Bracken personify it the most in terms of houses, but in terms of
one single person, Oberyn Martell's brief time on screen
is all about settling an old score, and his history is has a
lot to do with continuing other old scores, so he has a lot of
experience with it on both sides, both the receiving end
and the giving end. Additionally, Elaria is a
bastard of House Uller, known for being violent, a bit mad and
vindictive, and according to our last episode, our core Yeah, her
father seems to be more than willing for Dorne to be thrown
into war, either over the death of the Red Viper or perhaps just
in general because some people want war and he's an Uller.
Some people do be like that, but she was even closer to the Red
Viper then. Well, perhaps anyone, even Doran
or their beloved Elia, whom they named their first child together
after. That's telling you something,
isn't it? And Despite that closeness and
his loss, Elaria openly argues for peace.
She argues that the cycle should end.
In fact, it is quite possibly because she is so close to all
this bloodiness that she wants to stop it.
But that's not all that makes her compelling for the rest of
what makes her interesting. Well, we've got all that and
more on this episode of History of Westeros podcast.
Another character like Oberon that maybe does a lot to
personify the concept of vengeance.
Maybe she isn't old enough or hasn't gotten wrapped up in it
enough yet, but Arya is on that path.
Yeah, that's true. Better than I thinking about it,
you know. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Her list is is very much that and we hope that maybe she finds
a better path in the long run, but in the in the short term
it's going to be pretty interesting.
We'll see what she does. So yeah, Aria is a good example
of the opposite end of that I suppose.
Or maybe someone that will go through this cycle and decide
she doesn't want to be a part of anymore, which is something
we'll suggest for Ilaria. Ilaria may not have borne, may
not have been born and and as a teenager may not have been like
this. She may have in fact become anti
vengeance because of the death of the Red Viper that may have
been what woke her up. That's a topic we will be
getting into today, among others.
But before we get into the episode, I want to recommend a
podcast I've been listening to and I think you'll enjoy as
well. If you like Viking stuff, The
History of Vikings hosted by Noah Tetzner is available
wherever you get podcasts. It's a mostly interview based
podcast, so Noah gets experts, historians, archaeologists,
writers, etcetera. People who know specific things,
who have made it their career to understand these things as best
as possible. And as I said, I've listened to
the show quite a few times. I've binged it and kept up with
them on a regular basis, both both cycles of that I've done.
Some recent episodes include King Harold, Bluetooth, Viking
Age ghosts and zombies, Weapons and battle tactics, the Vikings
in Russia and most recently in here.
In the end of 2023, an interview about Viking Yule, the Norse
winter holiday and the Wild Hunt, which is a fun
mythological thing that's been used in a lot of different
fantasy series and stories. Especially The Witcher is the
one I'm mostly here with. But anyway, yeah, subscribe to
the history of Vikings wherever you listen to podcasts and let
us know what you think. Hello and welcome everybody.
We're back with another episode. Glad to have you here.
Almost every Sunday we have live streams at 3:00 PM.
You can catch them afterwards. The edited version anywhere you
catch podcasts. The video version is well
edited. Put up on Spotify and you can
get everything available odd free on Patreon.
Sean, what are you drinking today?
Some sort of mute juice? Is that?
Got the Naked Green Machine as always, and I've been adding the
the Bolthouse Vanilla protein in since the the Naked protein
drinks haven't been available oddly enough, and I got a little
magic mind in there and good old Mountain Dew.
Magic Mind not to be confused with Magic Mike.
I'm going to keep making that joke for years, yeah, and I want
to make a special shout out here.
Our good friend Nina, who normally we would shout out her
blog here, which I'll do anyway. Good Queen allie.tumblr.com with
1L and Allie, but much more importantly than the weekly
shout out. Congrats to Nina and her new
fiance James for getting engaged.
Yay, then, there was much rejoicing.
I'd say that was her Jaharis, but we know, we know Nina's not
the biggest fan of Jaharis. That's.
True, That's true. Yeah, that's a good point.
Ali got her Jaharis, but not that Jaharis.
We'll keep it More of a metaphorical James.
Harris. Yeah, James Harris.
That's right. Yeah, His name is James James
and that's great, let's say. Yeah, James Harris.
That's right. Very good.
Yes, Congrats to you all. We're very happy for you all and
wish you a happy life together. And yeah, three cheers from
everyone. Rejoice if you have any
questions about anything we talk about today or just how to
support, where to find our social media, any of that, you
can either e-mail us at westrosehistory@gmail.com or
visit historyofwesteros.com. It's all there, all the links,
all the stuff, all the suggestions.
And at the end of this episode, I'll mention some other ones
that relate to things we discussed in this one.
Before we get started, our usual trivia question.
The answer can be found during the episode Which house did
Oberyn Martell Foster at? The fostering system, of course,
is very common with the nobles, and Oberyn was no different.
He fostered somewhere. But where was it?
I think we even mentioned it in last week's episode Hardcore
Houses. So you may have come in knowing
that, but if not, like I said, it'll be repeated, so keep your
ears peeled. Illaria is not a warrior, nor
does she have much political power.
She may have had a little bit through Oberyn, but that's gone
now. So most of our focus will be on
her relationships with other characters as well as what she
means to the story, what she represents and all that, which
is fairly unique. Doran points out how well he and
Oberyn worked together despite seeming to be so opposite in
many ways. Some of that becomes is because
Doran's brother, they have the blood ties and they they love
each other regardless of their differences, and vice versa.
But at the same time, you don't choose your siblings, you don't
choose your parents, you don't choose your family.
And Lara and Oberyn must have had plenty of important things
in common to have a functional relationship that lasted so
long. This is a violent, aggressive
man that had a stable relationship with this woman for
15 years or so. I mean, maybe even longer, but
that's a long time. And they didn't choose.
They didn't. They weren't forced to be
together. This wasn't an arranged
marriage, like a lot of noble marriages are, So part of what
makes her and them unique is this scenario.
They chose each other, they loved each other and they were
the only person in each other's life that were ever like this.
They didn't have, neither of them had a comparative
relationship that was similar. Well, they wouldn't have had.
She wouldn't have had time for one and and he never stayed with
any of his other mothers of his children for more than a little
while. Now usually we do a first
mention or first appearance section here, but hers we're
going to place chronologically instead because we want to
analyze that scene, a lot of the one where she first appears, but
only after we set it up. So let's talk about her birth
and early life. And her father is Lord Harmon
Uller. We don't know who his wife slash
her mother was, not surprisingly, nor do we know if
they have other children. So the this Uller family is a
little bit hazy right now. He may not have any other
children. His brother Ulwick.
Ulwick Uller, it's kind of hard to say, showed up with the Red
Viper and Harmon at the party when Oberyn showed up.
So they all those three came together.
Oberyn came with Ulwick, Harmon and Ellaria, but there were no
other Uller. So if they had, he had an adult
son. He either stayed home to be
there must always be an Uller at the Hell Hold or some business
like that. So we're not quite clear on
that. But it's it's notable perhaps
that we might learn eventually. So this Harmon Eller is thus
grandfather to the four children of Oberyn and Ellaria who are
Ilia, Obella, Deraya and Laresa who certainly have a few things
to say about throughout this episode.
Also important to mention, Sean, did you when we were starting
this episode, did you recall or did it occur to you to consider
that the Darnish tend to treat bastards differently?
So there's a already a bit of a dichotomy here with what we
expect from a relationship with a a bastard person.
I was even thinking the idea of leaving a son a hell hold.
Well, it might not have been a son.
It might have been another daughter or some other.
Yeah, Heiress. You know, even if we think of
them as being hardcore, women can be hardcore.
Oh yeah. And and we see it's it's kind of
a theme here looking at Ilaria, how this difference of like a
woman knowing her place, that concept doesn't, is not part of
her psyche or her culture or anything.
So and of course this is this extends to their relationships
like their paramours and non traditional relationships like
that. This Dorne's more accepting of
such things. So this is something that builds
up, is important for Ilaria is a lot of things that are
relatively normal in Dorne. Are you know, culturally
shocking to Westerosi nobles like, oh, she's a bastard, oh,
she's a paramour, oh, she and she's Dornish and she's a woman.
There's lots of lot of prejudice wrapped up in in this character
aimed at her by others, which is part of what makes her
interesting. We don't know that she was
raised by her father, but because of the way Dornish treat
their bastards, she probably was.
There's every reason to assume that, based on what we know, she
in fact rather not. She, Arianne assumes that Lord
Uller would be angry to hear that Ellari and her daughters
were imprisoned if if he didn't think much of his bachelor
daughter, he wouldn't be upset about this.
I wouldn't think so. It all lines up pretty well to
show that, yeah, she was probably raised there given a
relatively normal education for a Dornish noble person.
And despite being an Uller, though, she, you know, another
thing we discussed about the Eller, She doesn't seem to have
the madness, if if it's even really a thing.
But maybe it's because she was raised in a vindictive,
aggressive environment with all these blood Fudes that maybe
that's why, that she's on the opposite extreme.
She has a lot of upfront knowledge, she's up close and
personal and has maybe most, if not all of her life.
I can't remember if or how much we talked about that in the
hardcore houses, but you can imagine Olders might want to
play up this notorious reputation of being mad, like
let him think we're mad. You know, we're actually pretty
killed here. And again, even that is
something that could change from generation to generation
depending who's in charge or whether or not they're going
through war and such. But I I I tend to think that she
probably did have a shift after Oberon died, but it could be
that she was raised and the Olers in general are a little
bit more level headed than you might think so.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it definitely.
In an environment like Westeros or just enduring, there's
there's definitely value in people being afraid of you, even
if it's not deserved. So yeah, like I said, not a
warrior, nor is she a poisoner or a courtier or a political
animal or an ambitious person. But in spite of that, or perhaps
partly because of that, she stands out.
See her good education come up when she talked with Sansa about
Baylor the Blessed. And this is the difference
between naive and and maybe someone who's been around the
block a few times. Like Elaria, where Sansa is
still very young in this moment, this is A Storm of Swords where
Sansa repeats the familiar legend that the Vipers refused
to bite Baylor the Blessed because he was so holy and
Elaria is like now he was bitten quite a few times like his feet
were full of the holes. He's not holy.
His feet were full of holes from where the Vipers bit him, and
it's wild that he didn't die. Which, to be fair, you would
expect that if he had been bitten, he would have died.
So it's kind of like, yeah, he maybe he wasn't.
It's a miracle either way, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
One way to look at it, like even
when she tries to bring the truth out of it to Sansa, I I
feel like she's still recognizing it's still
impressive. You have a detail wrong, but
it's still very impressive. Yes.
Noteworthy, etcetera. And this is a a neat point to
make a Laurie of all people talking about Baylor of the
Blessed. A person who was, like,
overwhelmingly dedicated to peace, like, perhaps more so
than any any character we could ever point to.
Maybe not even perhaps just I I can't really think of someone
who personifies peace more than Baylor of the Blessed.
Now, Lauria being educated and having a conversation, knows
that too, and so does Sansa. So it's neat that George had
that dialogue come from her, a person that becomes such an
advocate for peace. Now we don't know when she was
born, but she has a 14 year old, so that gives us some sort of
range. Oberyn was born in 257 or 258.
I'm going to guess that she's about eight or nine years
younger than him, which would make her about 32.
It could be less. I mean she could be more like
3435. I kind of, I'm assuming she's
younger than him. Fairly safe assumption, but it
doesn't have to be like a lot of a gap.
She seems to be intelligent and poised, examples of which we'll
see. Like emotionally tough mental.
Like strong mental health. Basically, most of what we see
of her is through Ariel Hota's eyes.
And Ario is a tough man, right? Strong himself, no doubt, and he
knows how strong and good she is, and Doran knows how much
Oberyn loved her. So the adults in the room all
recognize this, and it's noted several times.
And these are all characters who we're meant to trust their
perspective for for a better way, right?
We're not suspicious of their opinions of hers.
Yeah, that's a very good point. Nina notes that as well, that
Ilaria isn't afraid to look Cersei in the eye or speak to
Sansa on equal terms, even though, like some people would
be, like, worried about the hierarchy there.
It's like, oh, Sansa's this, you know, poached by the Tyrells and
gonna be married to Tyrion and all that.
So she still ranks quote UN quote way higher than Ilaria.
But that didn't seem to matter to her.
She wasn't intimidated and I got to think that this is part of
what was attractive to Oprah in the 1st place, noting this
woman's confidence in her just ability to be herself in these
environments where there's a lot of pressure to be something
she's not, you know, just to to look down on her.
You know, it reminds me of something I kind of realized
through the course of that Hardcore houses episode.
I think at the moment we were talking about cannibalism, but
just the idea in general that part of what makes someone
hardcore, is it something that would normally get in the way,
doesn't get in the way of someone's hardcore, whether that
for better or worse, right? Whether it's the cold or hunger
or some social construct like not eating other humans or or in
a case this idea of her social rank, you know, she's like, I
don't know about social ranks that social ranks not going to
hold me back. I I am who I am and I'm
confident with it and I'll speak to anyone as an equal.
Like that's kind of a hardcore mentality to have right to not
let something that normally might hold Sansa or or you know
some other person might be timid in the presence of some Lord but
not her. She's just as confident as ever.
Yep, well said, Good said. Now, interestingly, this makes
both of them slightly more interesting.
Not or not more interesting, but more unique is that there's only
one character named Oberyn in all of A Song of Ice and Fire
and A Song of Ice and History. Surely there's others we just
don't that they haven't been revealed.
I doubt he's the first person ever named Oberyn in in history,
but he's the only one we know of.
Same with Ilaria. There's no other Ilarias in Fire
and Blood or The World of Ice and Fire or Duncan Egg or Song
of Ice and Fire, so they're both the only ones with that name for
now. So let's touch on just how well
Oberyn and Olaria are written as a couple.
He is perhaps the single most representative character of the
blood feud concept. As I said in the intro, let's
describe just why real quickly. Not only did he get his
nickname, the Red Viper from the Ironwood incident, which is when
he slept with Lord Ironwood's Paramore got caught, and then
there was a duel for Honor. And since they were
high-ranking, it was just a duel to first blood, not to the
death. But then the Ironwood got sick
after the duel and it was whispered that he used poison,
the guy died. It was like oh, and then that
the Ironwoods and Martel's have had a long running feud, so that
really harmed it. And to fix that, that's why
Quentin became a Squire to the Iron Woods and a few other
things had to be done to to fix that relationship.
And then he reignited the Tyrell Martel feud by.
What he By hurting Willis Tyrell?
That one probably wasn't his fault.
I believe him when he says it was.
The boy was too young and he got his foot in the stirrup and that
all adds up to me. Maybe the Red Viper went, you
know, went hard on him anyway, but he's right that he shouldn't
have been. Either way, it reignited a feud.
It just goes to show these grudges.
It doesn't take much. It can it publicly it looks bad
even if he didn't do it on purpose.
And it's part of the problem with these things in the 1st
place, right Sean? Yeah, sometimes when there's
already this history, something that normally would be
overlooked or excused instead becomes an excuse to reignite
the past flames. And that is exactly there.
And of course the big one, the one that he's after, the revenge
on the Lannisters for Ilia, which is, you know, most of his
story. It's almost like in the inverse
of the concept of fridging, where you have often a woman
character dies to give pathos to a male character.
Well, he died and she's the one that has the pathos, but he was
still maybe the more important character, I don't know.
I mean at the time he was maybe in the long run we'll see.
But yeah, it's kind of an inverse of that concept.
Him dying gave pathos to the nation.
Yeah, the. Whole country to everyone.
She's the one that's like, no, I'm the one that's closest to
him, and all of you were wrong. Yeah, and I feel like often when
a woman is fringed it is the inverse and that the the man
wants vengeance and so it really is a very inverted there.
Yeah, it's kind of neat, right? I was like, oh, I didn't, I
didn't really. I definitely didn't catch that
until taking a look into this topic was like, yeah, it's kind
of an inverse fridge, which it's also funny that it's Dorne, like
the hottest country. So it's deserting.
That's what we call this, right? Or baking or fridging.
This is ovening, yeah. You know, another thought it's
especially if he didn't poison that Ironwood character, then it
would be, it would be two instances of him kind of being
mixed up in the reignition of a blood feud that wasn't really
his fault. But when it comes to Ilia, he's
like, now this is real, right? That he might be extra, like
those other things should have, couldn't have happened or
whatever. But this needs to happen.
He might have an extra sort of vindication in his mind about
this vengeance. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Now, to be fair, sleeping with a High Lord's Paramore is probably
not probably a provocation. It's probably fair to call that
a provocation. Indeed, but you can still how he
would think anyone can sleep with anything like what's the
big deal? Like you could.
See how you would. Justify that as something that's
not worth, you know, drawing blood over, you know, but.
Which is part of why they tried to do settle it with just a
first blood duel rather. But then that got worse because
yeah. Anyway, so he didn't seem to
have much of A pattern like a type.
You know, Oberyn, I mean the four women he had children with
before Olaria were very different from one another.
Obara's mother was a sex worker from Old Town or in Old Town.
We don't actually know she was from there.
But fairly safe assumption. Nymeria's mother was an
aristocrat from Volantis, like very different there.
Sorella's is a sailor from the Summer Islands.
All, you know, really, really different too.
And then Tyene's was a SEPTA. Not exactly sure where where she
was from, but probably not from Dorne.
So that's an example of just for women who, you know, maybe they
have some things in common, but it's not apparent to us just
from hearing descriptions of them.
We don't see them on screen, so it's hard to get detail.
There, all stacked. They're all stacked.
They're all baddies. Yeah, total bad.
So Ilaria, Nina says Ilaria is also occupied A somewhat liminal
space compared to the mothers of his older daughters.
She wasn't any of those things. She's not a sex worker.
She's not a foreign aristocrat, certainly not a sailor,
certainly not a SEPTA or any of these things.
So just a Dornish woman, you know, actual an actual Dornish
person. Like the other thing that's
interesting about Ilaria compared to Oberon's lovers is
she's the first one that's Dornish, right?
So that as well as. I don't know if that's anything
we can read into that, but it's noteworthy I suppose, and the
fact this may have been part of what drew him to her in the 1st
place. What drew Oberyn Delaria may
have been the fact that she didn't have all this baggage
that so many noble women have, which is political
considerations. If they have kids together,
those kids will have political considerations.
They might have claims that need to be addressed by making this
bastard woman his lover. Their children are connected to
the Royal family, but they're not a threat in that sense.
They don't have the same political power that makes them
dangerous. They are dangerous.
The Sand Snakes are, but not for that reason.
Necessarily, Chuck, do you think that there's no way that those
that those bastards would ever have a claim on the on the
hellhole through like conniving like I feel like they could if
they really wanted to? Yeah, I shouldn't say no claim.
It's just significantly. Reduced less, but like the rest
of the others die they're getting the hell holed.
And if they killed the rest of the the Ullers say like let's
say little Elia was like, I want this.
I think she could get it. Yeah, you know, you might be
right about that. Yeah.
Like, with enough, with the right maneuvering and this
proper levels of of violence, you can do a lot.
That's a good point. Yeah.
I wondered for a moment if that might be part of why he.
I don't know about the physical attraction.
Could be a million different things, but but there's a
million women for him to be physically attracted to.
But to start this relationship with a Dornish woman.
I wonder if there was some amount of maturing in him, him
thinking about his perception as the Prince with women from all
these other lands. Maybe he needs to bring it home
a little. Maybe Doran told him to do that.
And even if that was the case, it doesn't.
The relationship they end up forming after the fact seems
strong, but I I wonder if there was an amount of him, yeah,
deciding to settle down with someone from home for the sake
of looks, you know? It's possible and the timing of
their apparent meeting is very important as well, which we're
about to get to 1 more, one or two more points before that.
How Ilaria and Oberyn met, we don't know.
He was fostered at Sandstone, which is 1 castle over from the
Hellholt. So.
But I wouldn't call it close. Maybe they met an attorney or a
wedding. There's lots of just high end
functions that they both could have been at.
Nina has a great theory though, which is that recall that Oberyn
was probably overseas during Robert's rebellion because
there's he just isn't around. There's no note of where he was.
So he's probably overseas, and we hear that he briefly tried to
raise Doran for Viserys, Danny's brother, after at some point
after the war was over, probably after he returned home from
overseas. Now that was put down, they were
like, no stop, no, no, cut that, cut that, cut that.
So he he didn't get very. Far with that intervention.
Intervention. Yeah.
All the things just don't do
that. Yeah.
And he may have gone around to various castles in Dorne to try
to see their reaction to be like, hey, would you join me in
this? Let's go.
So in order to raise Doran, he's got to go talk to Lourdes.
Like we know he was trying to quote, quote, raise Doran, which
means he's going to try to fire them up, which probably means
talking to them in person. So if he had gone to the hell
hole at that point, there you go.
He meets Elaria on this mini tour of important Dornish
castles trying to get something going.
So in fact, maybe that's maybe that's part of what slowed him
down. He's like, actually, I would
rather hang out with this woman than what was that?
Why was I going to war in the 1st place?
Yeah, they clearly have a lot of chemistry, but not just
romantic, but sexually they over in flaunts, their bisexuality,
the threesomes they have and all that.
And he might be exaggerating a little bit, but I have no real
reason to doubt him. You know, it's not like he's,
it's like it's a political advantage for him to point that
out. So it just seems like a thing.
That's his reputations. And he talks about, yeah, why
not, But it's not. It's not.
It's not unbelievable at all. This this is very speculative,
but my theory before that he might have, for the sake of
perception, felt like he needed to marry or or pair with the
Dornish woman when he's going around trying to get Lords on
his side. So to raise up, which he might
be fired up to fight if he was overseas fighting for some
mercenary company and comes back home and he's just like ready to
go to battle, like, hey, let's get a battle, let's go.
But when he goes to talk to different Lords like, man, you
haven't even been home. You've got kids with women from
all around the world. We're not.
You're not really a Dornish Prince.
He might have faced a little bit of that.
He might have felt it would give him more legitimacy to have
Adornish woman be the mother of his children.
And if we keep in mind the whole plot line, the focus of his plot
line, which is revenge for Ely. Of course, that's most front and
center in his mind here, returning from overseas to find
out that his beloved sister, the one that he was, quote UN quote,
inseparable from. That's his main reasoning here.
So picture this. He's still in grief, but his
grief mostly manifests his anger.
He wants to get revenge. He wants to get back at the
Lannisters in particular and mostly Tywin, but would happily
take his vengeance on other Lannisters.
So I guess their relationship began shortly after his return
to Westeros. It wouldn't likely have started
before, since he was overseas or during, right?
So Ilia was born not long after the death of Elia's sister,
Elia. Elia Santa, I mean, was born not
long after, maybe only two to three years, so that also fits
as a very likely time if their relationship began.
And maybe Alaria encouraged the name Elia for their first child
to help set her ghost to rest to calm his need for vengeance.
A bit didn't seem to work, but it's worth a try, and that may
have been partly what kept them together.
You have this connection. You have a child that you've
named after your sister like that, someone that you loved and
were super close. The person that he was most
close to in this world. And then Hilaria took the place
of that became the person he was closest to in this world until
they were separated by his death.
So he treated her as his basically like a wife.
He treated her with respect and regard, not, not in the way that
you would maybe have expected, given the way he treated like
Obara's mother, for example, or just how he treated people in
general like he doesn't. Isn't someone that treats people
very well in his early life, and maybe not so much in his later
life either, but there seems to be some exceptions, and Alaria
is #1 on that list. She can't replace Ilia, but she
was the loving relationship that he had never had with someone
that wasn't. You know, I don't mean to.
I don't mean to suggest, even though there is that joke in the
book where he's like, yeah, we're we're as close, I was as
close to her as Jamie and Cersei and Tyrion's like, well, I hope
not. And his mind's like, yeah.
And it's like some people take that as evidence like George
tongue in cheek saying that they were that close, that they were
an incest couple. Which, I mean it's possible, but
there's really nothing to indicate that besides that this
one sideways comment there. So I don't, I don't think so.
Anyway, the point is, going from this traumatizing loss to
wanting to start a war, to finding the woman the perfect
woman for him and naming their first child after that lost
sister is all pretty moving, and pretty comes in a short period
of time, relatively speaking, so it really seems strong as
something to work as head cannon.
I think Nina compares to Lauria to Jane Westerling.
Rob emphasizes to Catelyn that he fell for Jane, in part
because it came during a time of deep devastation.
He had just been wounded. He just found out that
Winterfell was lost and Brandon Rickon were killed, which of
course they weren't, but that's what he thought.
And Santa had marrying Tyrion had come not long before that.
So it was just blow after blow after blow.
And in addition to actually being physically wounded, which
isn't going to help, you know, you have an infection in your
shoulder and all that, it's going to make everything feel
even worse. So that is part of what started
their relationship. And once it started it, it had
that rooting in that beginning which was so emotional.
It's always going to be a part of their relate.
Well, it was always a part of their relationship.
And it'll be with Jane until she dies.
And it'll be with Hilaria until she dies is there's never going
to be a replication of those unique circumstances where they
he was, he really needed someone.
And then it became the perfect person for the rest of his life.
So I wonder how often they talked about it.
Like, did they talk about Elia? I would guess so.
Like you tend to talk about these things with your partner.
And and of course, it was on his mind constantly.
It was like his life's work almost to achieve justice for
Elia. So I'm sure it came up in their
conversations but it doesn't necessarily mean he discussed
his specific plans like oh I'm going to put poison on my spear
and I'm going to become Tyrion's champion.
I don't know that she knew those things, but we'll get to that
when we get to that part of the story.
It's an interesting question though whether or not she how
close were like some men keep their their dirty secrets away
from their their families or their wife but some are.
It's just as much their secret. It's all it's, you know, it
depends on the couple and and the family.
That might have been part of their bond, or why she was so
special and important to him. She you're wondering if he
talked to her about Ilia. She might be the only person he
talked to about Ilia. To everyone else, he's this
badass warrior and he wants revenge and he's got the spear
and may may talk poison, whatever else, but he doesn't
reveal these inner sadnesses or whatever that he has, but he
does to her. And that might have been the
thing that really bonded them. Yeah.
I mean I assume he talked about it with Doran but not like
necessarily in a way that was you know deeply engaging and
like they didn't cry together. You know I don't I it's hard to
picture Princess of Dorne doing that the way their culture is.
You know they probably probably would have been therapeutic for
them. But I I don't I don't really
guess that they did but with her, you know.
Yeah he could let his guard down maybe and then be a little more
vulnerable. Something tells me he was still
pretty rigid about it but less so.
You know, he still might have had his moments where he let
some genuine emotion out. And that wasn't anger.
Not that anger isn't genuine, it's very genuine.
But you see what I'm saying, That he might have been softer
about it in some moments behind closed doors.
And it Doran does have the social hierarchy, even though
it's different than the rest of West.
They still have, you know, let's not fool ourselves.
They still have haves and have nots.
They still have elites and and people in poverty just 'cause
their noble system is a little different and different from
West Rose. Maybe it's a little closer to
something we like. It's still pretty bad.
It's still, you know, prioritizes the people at the
top. The aristocrats can still get
away with things. Quentin thinks that the drink
water twins were too low born for him for example.
And Quentin's a pretty good kid. But this isn't you know, it's an
uncomfortable thought but he's he's not thinking that they're
in terms of his ego. He's not saying, oh I'm too good
for them. He's just acknowledging the way
these things work and their rank is beneath a Prince and that's
it's just a fact in his mind. It's not a it's like a judgement
call where he's like no, those drink waters, no, no, no.
You know, he doesn't have that thought.
It's just a it's like a matter of fact thing.
And that is the big question. Why didn't they marry?
Why didn't they? There's a lot of reasons though.
There's one right there. We mentioned a few others, which
is just he gets to keep them out of politics or at least not out,
as a Shay pointed out accurately doesn't keep them out of it.
Clearly the Sand Snakes are involved, but it enables them to
keep more of a distance if they so choose, and give them a
little more protection against being embroiled in schemes.
Take Sorella, for example. Sorella's off doing her own
thing and she's just left alone. They're like, yeah, let her do
what she wants. She's, you know, she's not here.
We can't mess with her and we don't really want to because
she's not. She's not really being a problem
and keeping his hand open. Think about John Connington and
the value of having the option to marry someone.
He's like, oh, as long as his hand is available, as long as
he's unmarried. It's something you can offer in
a negotiation or to offer to an ally.
So having that ability, even if you never intend to use it, just
having you showing that you can do it, has some value.
Just similar to the concept of showing that people making
people afraid of you, right. Even though you aren't
necessarily that scary using that to your advantage.
It's like, well, if you're not married, well, let's use that to
our advantage and say how we could, we could float that
around and get people interested, get people coming at
us to make offers and keep them in our corner that way.
Just short leash kind of thing. Depending on the position you
get into, you keep it available or for other people to come to
you with that proposal too. It's like a not not only is it a
tool for you, but it's a tool for others to come to you.
Does that make sense? So yeah, yeah, that's a good.
Point You eliminate a tool for yourself and other potential
allies once you have been married, Unless you're
Targaryen, you just get married again.
Yeah, right. Or think about what Tywin did.
Tywin was not willing to entertain any marriages for
Cersei until the Rhaegar option was completely off the table.
He's like, OK, now I got to do something else because I wanted
the Prince, you know, and the heir to the throne.
I couldn't get that. But he wasn't willing to settle
for anything less than that. So yeah, Doran may have believed
that having Oberon available, you know, that gave them an
option that would cause their enemies and their allies to
treat them a little differently or at least to factor that in.
So there was, there's also no need for him to marry.
Like they don't obviously Doran has two sons and a daughter that
came before both of them. So 3 heirs.
And since Doran women can inherit, you don't have to wait
for a son. You just there's a kid.
It doesn't matter what what their gender is as long as you
know whoever's first born goes. That's that.
So and and Olaria might not have cared.
She might not have wanted to get all that embroiled.
She might not have wanted to get that deep into it.
She may prefer to keep things at arms length.
And she certainly wasn't raised to expect to marry a big name
that wasn't in like Sansa was or like Cersei was.
Right. They expected it.
Laurie never would have expected.
That I just want to point out the humor there.
It's a it's a step in the right direction to let any child
inherit, and it doesn't have to be the oldest son, but there's
still a little humor to like well, there's a kid any kid will
do like. Be a kid.
It should be. Inheritance in the 1st place, If
it is gonna be at least women should be allowed to do it, but
geez, what a silly. Yeah, so again, lots of reasons
there and we don't know which one it is, but it's not strange
even though we don't know the reasons because there are so
many available reasons that it could be, and it might be
several of those reasons she becomes a bit of a peaceful
weapon. That's what I've called this
next section because it's like the concept of Aikido, the
martial art Aikido is using is is built around using your
enemies weaknesses against them. They try to punch you and you
move out of the way and they punch the wall or you.
They they get all over balance reaching for you.
And then it's just that you can slightly push them and they fall
over, right? It's using their weaknesses
against them or using their anger against them.
In this case, their momentum against them.
Yeah, in this case nobles are so just uppity and Snooty about
bastards. It gave the Dornish an
opportunity to rub their faces in it and say, ha ha, we can you
have this weakness and we're going to exploit that.
If you're deeply offended or made uncomfortable by something,
your enemies will take note of that and use it.
I was like, let's make them deeply uncomfortable, and so
they did that by bringing Ilaria Sand.
Let's look at the brilliant scene which is Ilaria's first
appearance, which comes a few paragraphs after Oberyn's first
appearance quote. He raised a slender hand toward
a black haired woman to the rear, beckoning her forward.
And this is Alaria Sand mine own Paramore.
Tyrion swallowed a groan. His Paramore and bastard born
Cersei will pitch a holy fit if he wants her at the wedding.
If she consigned the woman to some dark corner below the salt,
his sister would risk the Red Viper's wrath.
Seat her beside him at the high table, and every other lady on
the dais was like to take offence.
Did Prince Doran mean to provoke a quarrel?
Yes. The answer is yes.
There's a zero chance they didn't realize that they would
have this reaction. They're like, oh, they're going
to be so up. Like what?
They're going to be so discomfited and so thrown off
like Tyrion swallow groan. They're going to.
He's like, they're going to swallow groans, Yeah, this is
exactly what's going to happen. They saw it coming a mile away.
Cause a distraction, cause discomfort, anything, whatever.
It's just all the the tropes of and expectations of Dornish men
over and is doubling down on his public display.
He's like, they're going to expect the Dornish culture to
make them uncomfortable. We're going to go full Dornish
and just really throw it in their faces and they're.
Going to have to deal with us. They're going to have to deal
with this in ways that they don't like.
You're right off the bat, you know.
Like, Tyrion was expecting Doran.
Like, wait, there's no litter. And like, uh oh, it's like,
yeah, you've got me to deal with, but it's not just me.
It's my paramour who's going to cause problems.
Not directly. She's not going to do anything,
but just being there is going to piss off a lot of people, you
know. And he presses the and and over
and back foots them immediately. He's he's.
You can see how planned this is because he, rather than being
like oh I'm sorry to be causing this disturbance, he goes on the
offensive presses the issue by pointing out how more
distinguished his group is despite containing this bastard
Paramore. He brought a bunch of Lords with
him, whereas Tyrion did not. And Oberyn makes a show of it
right here. Quote.
Prince Oberyn wheeled his horse about to face his fellow Dornish
men. Alaria, Lords and Ladies SERS,
see how well King Joffrey loves us.
His Grace has been so kind as to send his own Uncle Imp to bring
us to his court. The imp is not a friendly
nickname. That's not like his accepted
nickname. That is an insulting nickname
that people get away with calling to him because, well,
he's, I mean, it's court. You try to you're you're
supposed to not react to things like that.
Tyrion does a few times react to it because he loses his temper,
but this time he's on his He knows ahead of time to be on his
best behavior, and he's like choking it all back.
Tyrion also can't like challenge someone to a duel, and his
father and the sister aren't going to back him up either, you
know? So it's it is.
It's so unfair for him as he moves through life to have to
deal with that. But yeah, I agree.
And Oberyn knows this. He knows he can get away with
it, not just because Tyrion has these things that he has to
worry about, but Oberyn himself is a Prince.
And he's like, well, I'm a Prince.
I outrank everyone here and I will say what I want and I will
get away with it. But he's also making sure
everyone understands what's happening.
He's making a public display. He's like, look how look who
they sent. Look how much they respect us,
you know? So he's like, like I said, back
footing them, putting them on the defensive while he's
thrusting on them. What he knows is going to make
them uncomfortable regarding his his paramour.
And and as you said, they thought Doran was coming, which
means it should have been an even more regal reception,
right? So like, maybe if they knew it
was Oberon, they can get away without the king himself or or a
certain presence of royalty. But they didn't know it was
Oberon. They thought it was Doran.
And yet still this was the reception.
So it's even worse. Yeah.
Good said. So next it comes off in this in
the scene Tyrion rattles off all the names, which we don't need
to go through. But then he thinks to himself.
Quote. The names had a nice ringing
sound as Tyrion reeled them off, but the bearers were no eyes
near as distinguished, nor formidable accompany as those
who accompanied Prince Oberyn, as both of them knew full well.
Yeah, it was. It was unspoken but obvious
between them both. And so, yeah, again, it's pretty
hard not to see this as extremely intentional on their
part. Doran and Ober knew exactly what
they were doing. They had a meeting about it.
They're like, all right, this is what we're going to do.
This is probably what's going to.
And if they don't send out a a a big enough welcoming party, I'm
going to do this or something like that.
You know, they may have, they may have planned it in great
detail. And yeah, and so they played
right into the Martel hands by being petty like they were, the
Martels were maybe almost hoping for this, to give them more
excuse to, to push the envelope, to use diplomacy as a weapon,
say, look, you guys weren't diplomatic.
We're going to hold that against you in addition to their
existing grievances, which are quite a bit larger, but still.
Yeah. So you're right, Sean.
If they had sent a larger party, like a more distinguished party,
Oberyn would have, it would have been harder for him to complain.
He wouldn't. He wouldn't.
He wouldn't have been able to grandstand the way he did.
Or maybe he would have found something to say, but it
wouldn't have had the weight that this did.
On some level, if they had sent a more distinguished party,
Oberon is so it's seemingly hell bent on revenge.
It might not have worked, but on some level that's the respect
they're looking for, right? It it's sort of like a win.
Win should be sort of a win win. If they don't send a respectable
party, we get to put it, throw it in the face.
If they do like Oh well, that's what we want in the 1st place.
Good start, you know. But it was not a good start.
No, it was not a good start. So if Doran and Oberon talked
about all this, which again, I very much assume they did, how
much was Alaria included in this discussion?
I assume maybe indirectly, maybe not in the same room with them,
maybe over and Phil's are in afterwards, but maybe directly.
OK, here's what's going to happen.
They're going to be off put by your presence.
They're going to call you bastard, They're going to
snigger. They're going to give you dirty
looks. Are you prepared for this?
Are you ready to be treated like that?
I assume it wasn't just they threw her into it and expected
her to just swim without any training.
And I assume they expected she'd be good at it because of her.
They had known her a long time. Oberyn has been with her for 14
years at this point. He knows her worth and and she
knows his. So I think she was in on it,
pretty aware of everything and and if not, she's smart enough
to understand it, but I assume she knew, they told her.
That way she could play it up, you know, she can make it even
more so. If they didn't include her, I
think it would have been because they didn't need to.
They knew how she would behave and it's what they wanted in the
1st place, you know? That doesn't mean they couldn't
still have included. Her, right, Right.
Like if she's going to be visibly uncomfortable, it's not
going to work as well. They don't want like this isn't
going to have the effect. They want her to her.
They want her being proud. They want her not to be looking
ashamed because that throws them off even more.
Like she should be ashamed to be amongst us.
She's so lower ranking. But when the more confident she
is amongst people that she's supposedly lower than the worse
it makes them look and I think they knew that would happen too.
So it's like, yeah, this is perfect.
So if she was the kind of person that couldn't handle that, the
kind of person that might just run crying from the hall because
she can't handle the social pressure, well, they wouldn't
put her in that position in the 1st place.
Because it wouldn't not, not necessarily be nice, although
that would be part of it. But because it wouldn't work, it
wouldn't show up. The Lannisters and and others
the way they want. They want to throw this in their
faces. And that's not going to work if
Ilaria just can't take the heat. But clearly she can.
Either she can take it, or maybe even better.
It genuinely doesn't bother her. That's entirely possible that
she's just so above it that she's like, yeah, throw me in
there. I'm ready to make fools of these
suckas. You know, I'm ready to to teach.
Bring these folks down a peg. She might relish it.
You never know. She might have stayed for a
while at court, too. This is a great point by Nina.
The intent was for him to be there.
He was supposed to take the small council seat offered to
Doran. It was going to be his instead,
which in turn is now being offered to wait which one?
Nymeria or Tain? I forget which of them is
getting it, but it's still going being passed down to another
Martel family member. So that's important because
Oberyn would have stayed in King's Landing for quite a while
given the original arrangement if he hadn't been killed in the
duel, which means Ilaria would have two.
So this thing was would have been a long term thing of them
constantly poking at people with her presence and being able to
use their snobbishness against them.
That would have been a long term plan had things not gone the way
they did. And also she could have maybe
talked to some people and and navigated certain social
situations that a a regular noble couldn't have.
You know, go places and talk to certain people like these.
Probably these problems cut both ways.
Like I can't be seen talking to a certain person.
I'm the lady of of whatever house you know, like it would be
been unseemly for me to be, but not for a Lauria Sant.
So she might have a little more let's say roaming space to do
things that might have been the plan.
Who knows? Either way, it reminds us of
why. Gives us a good insight into why
Auburn was attracted to her in the 1st place.
She has all this confidence and poise and and she's not.
She's not intimidated by being the face of a giant trolling
expedition against House Lannister.
You know, that's a pretty intimidating thing to do.
But she seemed to just I'm. I'm all for.
It this is probably too tangential to get into very
deep, but I wonder how that might have played out given the
actions of the High Sparrow when he's arresting Cersei and
Marjorie for their, you know, moral indiscretions of whatever
would have. Would Oberon or Ilaria have been
arrested too? It might have been even more
complicated and. Probably.
Eventually violent, you know. It's a very good point.
Yeah, that that would have not have.
That would have been oil and water mixing right there.
Compare Ilaria to our good friend Jon Snow.
It was easy enough for the Starks to seat Jon in the rear
of the hall during his very first chapter, during the feast
for the royal family at Winterfell.
The same Lannisters and Baratheons, in this case.
They can't separate the Prince from his partner.
That's just you can't really do that.
Like, no, your partner's going to sit over here and you sit
here. That's just, it's weird.
But Jon Snow, they just yeah, just stick him in the back.
Who cares? No, like only, like, as far as
Catelyn's concerned, who cares, right?
And and Ned's not going to make a He's not going to complain
about that. And even Jon himself, he was a
little bothered by it, but he took it in stride pretty well.
Remember, he got drunk, which he said I wouldn't be able to get
drunk if I was up there. But he was.
He was. He was miffed, for sure.
Or think of Sansa masquerading as Elaine Stone.
She couldn't sit at the dais while in disguise because they
wouldn't be seemly as Littlefinger's bastard daughter,
but if she were truly open as Sansa Stark, then that would be
the obvious place for her. So we see this sort of example
in multiple places. I think it's pretty well
attested to. And these rules, right?
These unspoken, unwritten rule, they're spoken, unwritten rules,
They're very much spoken. But sometimes they're spoken
very bluntly. So it's neat that in both cases,
Cersei is at the center of concerns here, the one who's
they're most worried about offending or most excited about
offending. In the case of the with John,
they're like, oh, we don't want to offend her with with the
lawyer, like, yeah, let's offend her.
So of course, Cersei is not the only outspoken person at court
quote. He had settled Prince Oberon and
his Lords in a corner Fort, facing the city as far from the
Tyrells as he could put them without evicting them from the
Red Keep entirely. It was not nearly far enough.
Already there had been a brawl in a Flea Bottom pot shop that
left one Tyrell man at arms dead and two of Lord Gargoland
scalded, and an ugly confrontation in the yard when
Mace Tyrell's wizened little mother called Hilarious Sand the
Serpent's Whore. I mean, damn right like that's.
Yeah. I mean, we know Lena talks a lot
and she says what's on her mind, but that's even for her.
That seems pretty blunt and and nasty.
So she's saying that to diminish her because of course, in
Westeros, a sex worker is at the bottom of the social ladder.
So she's trying to compare her to that and say that's where you
belong, you, that's how you know you appear in this company as
someone who doesn't belong. So she's trying to emphasize and
exaggerate that by saying that. She also probably is doing a
little bit of win in Rome. Do as Romans do.
She's got to seem like she's on Cersei's side if she wants to
get what she wants out of Cersei, so.
That's a good point. That's a good point.
I think she probably feels it somewhat earnestly as well,
because she doesn't like the Tyrell.
I mean she doesn't like the the the Dornishman.
She's in old school reachman reach woman and doesn't yeah
doesn't like the Martel's doesn't like what happened what
Oberyn did to Willis even though you know even though she may be
is aware that it wasn't on purpose because she also makes a
comment about Willis going into jousting too soon.
So it's almost it was an actual agreement with Oberyn, but it
was sort of like you could take it as tacit.
Like, yeah, Mace was a fool for putting him into jousting too
soon. He wasn't that kind of boy in
the 1st place. He's not.
He wasn't Loris. Loris, go ahead, he's that
talented. But Willis isn't that kind of
kid. So in in certain companies she
might make that admission, but she knows the party line, if you
will. We don't like the Martells
because of what Oberon did. You know, she's, that's the
public stance she's going to take, yeah.
And she might be trying to provoke a reaction too.
And she knows that the Tyrells have like a full army at court,
whereas the the Martel's brought like 300 men.
So it's not. I mean, Tyrion points that out
too, and and Oberyn is not bothered by it, but it's not
irrelevant. She probably also knows Oberon's
really there for Tywin and Gregor, right?
That's what he's really scared for.
And so if she can get him riled up, right, even if he's mad at
her, that anger will still be devoted to the Lannisters, which
is good for her. Like almost every angle, whether
it was personal or calculated, it was.
It was a good play for her to say that in a way that would get
back to them and she. Recognizes that they're making.
She's smart to know that they're making a provocation.
So she's like well I'm going to provoke them right back.
You know like well we two can play at this game.
You know she's she's obviously on top of the subtleties of
diplomacy and even though she's not very subtle herself she
understands it quite well. So.
So this provides us such a window into different forms of
prejudice. This, this section is called a
window to prejudice. Hilarious Time at Court reveals
a lot of how mainstream Westeros he looked down on Dornish.
Like, specifically. We know that they have these
prejudices, but it really comes out with her because they're
against women, they're against bastards, they're against
Dornish women. So it's a triple threat here.
This quote from Sansa was absolutely full of that sort of
learned prejudice and other revealing things.
For example, quote. Shea had told her that this
alaria worshipped some lysine love goddess.
She was almost a whore when he found her milady, her maid
confided, and now she's near a Princess.
Sansa had never been this close to the Dornish woman before.
She's not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her
draws the eye. Now that is a very telling
sentence from Sansa, isn't it? Is that like, well, I've been
taught what beautiful is, but I think she's attractive.
So she's kind of at odds with what she's been taught.
Traditional beauty is like standard Westerosi beauty
standards, which is not the same as Dornish beauty standards.
So she's still kind of like, yet I still like, you know, so she's
wrestling with that, I think internally and that's that's
kind of interesting. So you have several different
opinions here. You have Sansa's opinion, your
Shay's opinion, and you have what both of them have been
taught and they've been taught very differently because they
come from extreme opposite ends of society.
We just talked about how sex workers are at the bottom,
Santa's near the top, right? And so you have a conversation
between these two types of people, which is a rare thing.
And you see this. It's like it's gossip in a
nutshell. Here.
Now it is gossip. And remember why Shay's even
there in the 1st place, she's been hidden as a maid, right?
She's masquerading as a one of the maids because Tyrion's
trying to keep her, was afraid of keeping her in the manse and
all that. Anyway, Shay is not as young as
Sansa. It's important to keep in mind
that she is very young though. They're probably both teenagers.
Shay might be like 20, but I think I think she's 18 when we
first meet her, so I don't think it's been a full 2 years till we
get to the scene. It's so it's very interesting
that Shay is disparaging hilarious social status by
saying she was almost a whore, given that was Shay's
profession. And even more ironic because
Shay is, this is what Shay wanted from Tyrion.
She's like I wanted to be almost a Princess that was brought up
from being a sex worker. She asked Tyrion.
He's like, I could be your lady. I don't have to be.
I don't want to marry you but you could give me jewels and all
this other stuff and I could be by your side like she was that
so this is she's projecting a little bit here that Elaria got
the thing that she wanted. I think.
I think there's a little of that a little bit of jealousy here
but she's just wrong. Elaria was probably not ever
almost a whore like that doesn't We just went through talking
about earlier how her elder father almost certainly raised
her and yeah, so there's no almost there at all.
I don't that's that's just pure gossip, I think.
Or maybe it's because of things like what Olenna said, You know,
maybe it came from that, like the telephone game.
She calls her the serpent's whore.
Someone else just repeats it a little differently.
By the time 10 people have repeated, it's just, yeah, she
was a sex worker in Dorne, you know?
And you know, not just Olenna, but Cersei and every other lady
would all want to denigrate Olaria.
Yeah, and she is getting in that perception and and maybe herself
wants to denigrate her, right? Because she doesn't want to
think that she did better than me, you know, so.
Yeah. And as well, Oberyn's first
child was with a sex worker. So maybe, like, people are
mashing up the different stories about him and conflating, like,
that's who he likes or something, that's who he goes
after is sex workers. I don't know.
Yeah. So there's all this, these
stories about him that that will leak into what people will think
about her because he's the big prominent figure.
So it's very sad for Shay that she's projecting like this.
And her upbringing was was terrible.
I mean she was beaten and and raped by her own father, whereas
there's no indication that Laurie had any of that.
So it's understandable that Shay has this because she's
traumatized and she would want to rise higher in in this world
no matter what. And to be so close to that and
not get it is probably pretty torturous, especially given what
ends up happening to her later. Ilaria didn't necessarily have a
lot of career options, but she didn't have.
She wasn't at risk of of being like in the gutter like Shay
was. That is another thing too,
probably in, I don't know, mainland Westeros.
Most bastard born girls are probably destined to be sex
workers. It might be a semi safe
assumption that she was if they don't understand the difference
in Dornish culture, you know. Yeah, maybe.
Maybe. Now we know that that's pretty
rare for noble bastard girls to have that be their only option,
because there's plenty of you know, they often find they often
get married to Knights or people of still very high social
status, but not as high as a trueborn child would get from a
noble family. Like if if Shay only knows her
name is Alaria Sand, she might not know that she's from the
Oller house. So.
Yes, absolutely. You're right.
And they. And again, like you said,
there's all this confusion and prejudice about Dornish bastards
versus other bastards. So Santa almost certainly had an
even better education than Alaria.
But. Not by as wide a margin as
Ilaria had over Shay. Shay's education was almost
nonexistent. Shay's education was all, you
know, in the streets, like learning by being out there and
interacting with people. Like she wasn't in classrooms or
didn't have teachers, etcetera. You could argue that Shay knows
more about the world than Santa in.
Some ways she. Talked about like, you know,
history or elite politics, But Shay probably knows more about
the how to make it through the world as a normal human.
Especially at this point, because Santa's biggest moments
of growth seem to come after she gets away.
She starts to have. I mean, she has some pretty big
ones, but most of her growth really starts when she gets away
from the Red Keep. Even though she's still under
Littlefinger's thumb. She has more room to be herself
and learn and think and and reflect on the Red Keep and and
things that happened before and and maybe do some things a
little differently. The lysine love goddess thing is
another bit of just prejudice ish type thing here.
Presumably Shay was gossiping with other maids and that's how
they the news of what's in her chambers comes out like they're
going to go clean her chambers. That's not where Shay would be,
because Shay is assigned to lawless Stokeworth, right?
So nothing to do with these Dornish guests as but again, all
the servants probably talk to each other and they would talk
about something in her chambers they found that would indicate
she worships some lysine love guys.
Now, they could have gotten that wrong, though there's nothing to
corroborate the story. You don't see anything of it
later, but there's nothing. It's not like a negative thing.
There's nothing to. I don't doubt it.
I just question whether they got the details right.
Maybe it wasn't lysine, maybe it's not love goddess.
What type of love are we talking about here?
All forms of love? Or is it like a God of a sex
goddess, or like a romantic love goddess?
Or, you know, familial love for your children or your family?
Like, there's lots of types of love.
Y'all so. I'm kind of just picturing that
Hilaria had some kind of horny statue and.
Maybe she's had a dildo and they're like, that's a lysine
love goddess. That's hilarious.
They've never seen one before. You know what is that?
That's. What they call it these days.
It's called a Lysine love goddess.
They hand me the LLG here. But no, I could see her having
one of those, like, you know, little nude statuettes or
something like decorating her room and then they think she
worships it and she doesn't even worship it.
She just likes it or something. Yeah, it might not.
Yeah, we do hit see her praying at another point, but it's just
like she's whispering a prayer to herself.
Like you can't really glean anything from it, so.
Even if she did worship it and it was more innocent, you know
it was love between mother or daughter or something like that.
It's still not one of the seven. You can still why it would be
like a hot topic. Exactly, Yeah.
It's a weird. Religion, you know.
Right. Yeah, it's again.
So that's why I'm putting into this section about prejudice,
like all this weird foreign God she's worshipping.
It's like, well, what if this, like this God might be like a
good, like a a good suggestion, like what this God stands for
might be kind of a positive thing.
But it's not the seven. So no, no, no.
And that just makes her all the more reason to gossip about her,
save all these things, to gossip about how she's Dornish, how
she's a Paramore, how whatever her past is, how she worships
these strange gods. Just so many things to gossip
about. That's why, again, it just comes
back to you got to be tough. You got to be tough minded, to
be the object of all this gossip at court where people aren't too
shy about. They're not going to like, make
sure you don't hear. They kind of will inflict it on
you willingly, you know, like intentionally let you hear,
like, whisper loudly, you know, like that kind of thing.
They're not keeping it under wraps.
Like you have Olenna calling her the serpent's whore and things
like that. This is not, this isn't super
subtle here So and again Sansa's especially someone who's very
young hasn't learned that, oh, everything isn't just what
you've been taught or oh, the people worship other gods in
this world. Sansa, it's not that strange.
Shay two, you know it's not that strange.
It doesn't mean bad things, but she's a young teenager and is
very sheltered. Still, her naivete is only
starting to come off at this point.
So it's very possible, though, like Nina says, yeah, it's
absolutely possible. This is true.
Maybe it's not lysine, maybe it's just some other foreign God
that they just misidentified. But either way, like, it's not
weird. It's not abnormal, not it's not
scandalous, but it is. It is interesting, and it causes
other people to see it that way. And it might be just like the
fear thing might be like the reputation thing.
Maybe she wants people to think she worships weird love gods or
goddesses or what have you. And to enhance her reputation,
she's supposed to be this polarizing figure at court
that's supposed to rub people the wrong way.
So maybe lean into it a little more, maybe spread these rumors,
maybe like, yeah, yeah, why? It does worship a strange line
seen love goddess. They want people to think that
it's entirely possible this was part of their part of their
play, part of their overall strategy to stand out at court
before things took a dramatic right turn.
So there's a lot of different things there.
And then that one scene, just Shay making those like 3
sentences and Santa's thought just in it, there's so much
wrapped into it. It's another testament to how
deep George's world building is that we can glean so much from
that without reaching. I mean, I don't think any of
those things are reaches because they reflect real world values
and real world concepts in ways that we're very familiar with.
I keep coming back to the the attractiveness thing, like how
Santa's like, but I kind of like how she looks.
But given what I'm taught, this isn't beautiful, but it kind of
it, like she's super interesting to me that she's wrestling with
that a girl her age like hasn't been taught what beautiful is.
But she should be able to do what she wants and be like,
well, I get to decide what I want looks good on me, not what
other people think, you know? And Laura, she's kind of
confronted with that by by someone that has that freedom.
And it's like, huh, it's it's puzzling to her.
She doesn't hate it, which is a credit to her that she's not,
like turned off by it or prejudice too much.
But she's she's just confused by it.
But she doesn't exactly agree with Shay when she's like, oh,
this is she just kind of like, OK, well, you told me that she's
not like, Oh yeah, oh, how awful.
Yeah. She's just kind of like
listening and taking it in and pondering it, you know?
It is I I have. This is like maybe a slightly
awkward story but you know, my granddad, You can imagine past
generations had much greater levels of racism than we have
now. I think we're growing and
learning and and he had a neighbor who was a black guy and
he would point out he's a good guy for a black guy.
Like he needed to put that caveat in.
He still had it in him that black people aren't really good.
But this one is different. You know, it's it's similar to
how Sansa is like, well, the orange people aren't really
beautiful, but but she is beautiful.
It's like it's she's having to reconcile this ingrained racism
or prejudice that's in her with this reality that she's facing,
you know? Yeah, because it doesn't,
actually. It's not actually true to her or
it isn't true to everybody. It's like, no, I find her pretty
beautiful, actually. Why does this not fit with what
I've been taught as well? It's because beauty standards
are crap. I mean, not entirely crap, but
they're like, they're not meant to be rules.
They're meant to be at best. They're meant to be guidelines
at at best. You know, you're supposed to
ultimately, you know, do your own thing and or whatever makes
you comfortable, which might mean going with the standards
that's that's valid to choose. But Santa was never taught that
that was an option. She's just taught that there's
this the one way. All right, let's let's take a
quick break for roughly the middle to answer some questions.
Do a few shout outs and we'll get back to the Purple Wedding,
Tyrion's trial, the actual duel, and what comes after, including
our predictions for what might happen to Alaria by the end.
Sean, tell us who you have for us this week to give fun shout
outs to. Well, I've generally I've been
bouncing back and forth between the oldest and newest patrons,
but I want to give a shout out to someone who's been with our
last couple patron calls. Let me say this, this is a long
1 Lord Giuliano of House, You Hand of Queen of Chea known as
the Omni Knight. I like the Omni Knight as a
title quite a bit it it both sounds like like a rainbow,
'cause it has all the colors, but also it can have a lot of
other connotations, like just multifaceted or Jack of all
trades. You know what?
It makes me think of there we as easy and I play this game called
Fire Emblem and sometimes you have like certain units that
like very versatile. They like can use an axe and a
Lance and a sword and I call them like my Swiss Army Knife
Knight. I mean that's what I meant to
say. I call them my Swiss Army
Knight, but which they are basically like the Omni Knight.
That's pretty good, yeah. And as a hand of the queen or
king, you would want someone who's got a broad skill set, I
would think. So that fits.
So we've still got some others to list off real quick here.
Willard, This slumbery of goat's tree flash the leather slumbery.
Love it. Lady Priscilla of the White
Spear. Master Minotaur of House
Gardener. Our grass is always Greener and
Liana, Snow, the Raven and Winter.
Oh, that's a that one touches on a lot of bases there.
Cool. Yeah.
You can get your own patron name by joining us at
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Just be careful not to mix up the topic moot with the topic
mute. Don't want to mix those.
Jornish Dame says this has me in mind of Laura Rogare and the
prejudice she faced for not worshipping the Seven, which of
course came right after the Dance of the Dragons.
And we've talked about that a bit and a couple times we talked
about during the the episode on lease and that is also something
Nina pointed out. So good call both of you.
Yes, Laura Rogare faced prejudice specifically for being
Lysenti for worshipping Lysenti. Gods.
Now she also didn't even learn the language, so that not to say
that's a good reason to be prejudice against her, but it
was just the the weight of that prejudice was larger because she
didn't try to become part of the Westerosi culture or was unable
to, and then she didn't. She never really liked it.
She left right and including leaving her children behind.
So yeah, she really didn't like it.
But there's no indication that Lauria doesn't like it.
If she didn't like it, well, she's showing.
She just she wasn't showing it. She was poised and putting a
brave face forward. Anders Graham makes the comment.
Mascara mating is that. Like masquerading.
Masquerading. Masquerading.
Yes. Jay's masquerading.
That really made me laugh that. Is good.
So the purple wedding in Tyrion's trial.
Cersei solves the seating issue actually pretty cleverly.
Cersei is clever. We we, you know, she's somehow
that amazing mix of of stupid and clever.
She does. She's both.
I mean, she's not stupid when she's not angry, but she's just
angry so often. I think that she's intelligent,
unwise. Yeah, that too.
And and prone to acting when she's angry.
Which? Is part of She's unwise.
Yeah, that snowballs really, really badly.
So this case, she solved it pretty smoothly.
She just put another table in and put it right below the dais.
So it's very much a place of honor, but it's also very far
from the Tyrells. Tyrion notes that it's as far
from the Tyrells as possible, so it's actually pretty smoothly
done by by Cersei there. And it makes sense to put all
the Dornish at that one table so you don't have to have the high
Dornish with Alaria up with the other high nobles.
So it it's something that makes sense that and and it's hard to
argue against and so on. Yeah, yeah.
Now, so she's there at the Purple Wedding.
Of course, like so many others, she isn't really noted during
the event. Except for that, we definitely
see her, but she's not really a part of, of course, the scene of
Joffrey and Tyrion and Joffrey dying eventually.
But the other things that precede that the the the scene
they were making and Joffrey dumping his wine on Tyrion and
all that stuff. So it's it's the scene is
through Tyrion's point of view. So we oh wait, is it or is it
through senses? Yeah.
Anyway, I always forget, but it doesn't matter.
Neither of them take much note of Alaria, but she's there for
sure. So she sees Joffrey die.
She sees Joffrey behave, too. And that's like, whoa, that that
guy's going to be the king. They must have heard things.
But seeing him behave that way in front of a bunch of people,
probably for the first time, is like, whoa, Dang, that's that's
bad. But she may have sympathized
with Cersei throughout, despite everything.
Because as a mother, seeing another mother lose their child
right in front of them is like, well, even I, even as much as I
support my husband's revenge, this might be this is rough.
Like I didn't need to see that, but maybe she relished in it.
We really don't know. She might have been like, yeah,
that kid deserved it. You know, I don't want to go too
far in what I assume about Alaria, especially because one
of my theories is that she may have done an about face after
Oberyn's death and realized that may have been what set her on
this anti blood feud cycle before.
She may have been like, yeah, yeah, Revenge.
Good. Yeah, get him.
I wonder if it may not have been a full about face if she was
already starting to turn after seeing Joffrey die in Cersei's
arms, you know? Maybe.
Maybe that started it. Maybe that maybe that added some
weight to what came shortly after.
She starts to think about how where this is going and she
might have one of her kids dying in her arms and etcetera,
etcetera. Yeah, like she cares about.
She might have cared about the cycle of violence, cared about
getting revenge. She cares about her own children
more than that. Like, well, my, if it's with one
or the other, then I'm absolutely, there's no choice at
all. I'm picking my children and
peace over getting revenge. So yeah, so that's.
You're right. You're right to point that out
that she may have pictured herself in that spot and she
could easily see that future given the the violence between
these families and the stakes in play and the the the
personalities in play. People like Cersei and her
paramour Oberyn and and Gregor Clegane and Tywin Lannister.
These are ruthless, brutal, violent people.
So it's not hard for her to imagine that could have some
blowback on her family. And you know, Oberon wasn't
necessarily there to specifically kill Joffrey.
But if Oberon had his way, if he could snap his finger and have
every Lannister die, he would probably do it right.
And that's exactly why Elia and her kids are dead, right?
And so she sees this is the same thing.
You know, if there's any piece of logic going through a brain,
that's the path that this is headed on.
That someone wants to kill her kids, you know, she'd rather
just stop this whole thing. Their their rank didn't stop,
didn't save them like Ilia was Promote was basically the the
heir to being queen of Westeros and it didn't stop her.
It didn't save her. Even though like like normal
hostage situation, normal like nobles are protected and given
for ransom, didn't protect her, you know, it just goes to show
that you can't count on those things.
So Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell and before he offers to be
his champion in public, he does it there in private.
Recall he mentions the possibility as well of marrying
Cersei because remember, Tywin was floating that idea as a way
to sort of stitch things back up like you could Cersei, you could
marry Oberyn, or you could marry Balon Greyjoy and she's like,
what, are you kidding me? And J and Jamie, when he hears
his like, are you kidding me? He has the same similar reaction
like what the hell And you know politically it all it kind of
makes sense but it's like what the how can this is these
marriages will be dysfunctional is all hell.
And so he brings it up as like you know Elaria thinks we should
say yes because he wants her in our she wants her in our bed.
She's never had a blonde royal before, whatever it is, he says,
it's like she's Randy just thinking about it, you know, and
and but then Oberyn pivots to the corgile scorpion bed murder
story, which he would know very well considering he was fostered
there. Right?
And it's also just a famous story that's come up many times
on our show, he says. I'd rather have those scorpions
in my beds in Cersei, so he's not dumb.
I don't know I different with Oberon in many ways and this is
1. Yeah, I would also rather have.
So I'd take the Cersei risk than the 100 scorpions.
Yeah, so, So at the trial, when it came around, did our lawyer
already know this? Like she was presumably there in
the crowd, though we don't see it.
She's definitely there for the duel, obviously, but for the
actual trial, I don't know if she was there probably though,
because her, you know, Oberyn's there as a judge.
She's a dignitary at court. It's a big event.
You know, she probably was there so, but did she know what he was
going to do? Did she know he was going to
stand up and go? I actually I'm quite convinced I
will stand for Tyrion as his champion and everyone's like
what? But it goes crazy.
The room explodes Was she was she like waiting for that moment
like I can't wait for this like I'm going to see the she's like
sitting there savoring the moment and or she was just
excited to see how it all played out I don't know but she might
not have known she might not have seen it coming.
I think she. Did, Because I'm not sure Oberon
knew. I'm not sure how certain he was
that he was going to make that play, much less had he talked
about it to her. I can imagine maybe they had had
a discussion, but not I have decided this, you know, I think
it's something he was batting around in his own head.
I don't think he knew it well enough to have told her he was
going to do it. Yeah, 'cause he maybe he wasn't
sure what was actually going to happen, although he had already
told Tyrion he was going to do it.
So I wonder, maybe maybe it's possible she even was part of
the planning, like gave him some of the ideas, Like she bounces,
he bounces ideas off, and we have no idea what that part of
the relationship was like. So I I just don't know.
I'm guessing probably not to that level of like you should
poison your spear, you know? And also I'm not sure.
I don't think she had that level of involvement, but it is
possible we can't throw that out, right?
I think if she had seen Gregor ahead of time she would have
told him to poison his spear. Well, yeah, 'cause she
definitely hadn't seen him ahead of time.
Yeah, she's like, you're going to fight that And he goes, I'm
going to kill that. So clearly she hadn't seen him
yet which makes sense cause Cersei when when they say I'll
stand as champion Sir, you know Cersei says Gregor has returned
to the city you know a day or two days ago.
So it was very recently he has come back.
So it's it makes sense that he wouldn't she wouldn't have seen
him yet. You know, this reminds me of
another thing too, that might have shifted Ilaria's stance.
Having gone to King's Landing and seen the resources at the
Lannister's disposal, she might have dreaded how the word's
going to go. Right.
Yeah, maybe. Maybe.
Oberon took out Gregor, but they might have another Gregor.
They've just got Knights and horses and money and people and
everything all around. Like, we just don't have these
resources back in Dorne. I don't know if we can stand up.
I mean, maybe we can. We started to the Dragons, but
how many people died standing up to the Dragons?
I don't want my daughters to die.
I don't want this to happen. Yeah, yeah, well said.
Now, also during the duel, she says, 'cause she's right next to
Tyrion. They're next to each other,
obviously. They're a lot, They both have a
lot in play on that duel, she says.
Obern is toying with him at one point, and Tyrion's like, that's
a very stupid thing to do, but. But put them on your own time.
My life's at stake here. It's not real.
He wasn't really toying with him.
He was trying to frustrate him and get him to yell.
To admit his guilt through through that, for that
frustration was a set up to make him admit his guilt.
Like say her name, say her name, say her name over and over and
getting him, getting in his head and all that and wounding him
and making him tired and just yeah, until he just loses it
entirely. He was partly toying with him,
'cause there is sort of a psychological advantage and he
does need to wear him down. But also, he could have just
killed him. He got to a point where he could
have just killed him. He didn't 'cause he wasn't
trying to save Tyrion's life. He's trying to get this
admission of guilt and. He didn't give a crap about
Tyrion. He did not care.
He's like, yeah, I'll save you. But he's more about like another
thumb in Tywin's eye to to save Tyrion.
He's like, oh, I can, I can kill Gregor and piss off Tywin, like
in a separate way, like it's already going to piss off Tywin.
But this is a a double Wham. Yeah.
So it it it fell into place so, well, except for the whole dying
part. So the focus is of course on
Tyrion's reaction. Obviously it's his POV and he's
very much concerned for his own life.
But as he's throwing up his breakfast when over in skull is
crushed, Ilaria's wail of terror, you know, is in his he
he notes it as he's, you know condemned because they're right
there. So as unique as her place at
court was in the short time she was there, Oberyn's death is
arguably even more compelling in terms of what it does to her
character. Partly that's just because we
don't know it's coming. And there's, you know, the
mystery is always a bit more compelling in some ways.
There's always the the allure of of the unknown.
I mean George wrote the Red Viper to be killed, as we said,
he just did it so well. He he he almost he he out rode
himself. The reason that he cites.
And there's other reasons, of course, but one of the loudest
reasons that George cites for the five year gap being scrapped
is the reaction of the Red Viper's death.
He's like, I wrote this character to be dead, but I did
it so well that I can't skip the reaction to it.
I can't do it in retrospect only.
Oops, made this character too interesting.
It's like the Boba Fett effect of like this character wasn't
supposed to be important, but everyone loves him so much.
We can't. Yeah, we can't.
George fell for that himself. It's like, if Spielberg had
decided that about Boba Fett, he's like, you know what, Boba
Fett's too cool. I got to expand his role.
It doesn't matter what the fans say.
It's cool that the fans agree. But I'm the one that thinks Boba
Fett is cool. So I'm doing this.
It's the same thing as George is like, man, this red Viper.
He's just, he's too cool. He didn't climb back out of the
Sarlacc pit. Cool.
But you can't really come back from that crushed skull.
That's not very ambiguous. So anyway, the political shift
is gigantic. Doran's reaction is gigantic,
but the most personally impacted is her.
If anyone alive knows his secrets, knew the man truly
behind the poison spear, behind the the threats, behind the
anger, it would be her even more than Doran, I think.
I don't think Doran's going to be alive all that much longer
anyway, so it won't even be a question.
Probably in a little while. So she obviously doesn't stay at
King's Landing very long because she has to bring home Oberon's
body. Much grieving from her along the
way to be sure and trepidation. She probably, in the back of her
mind, knows that. Oh boy, Lot's going to happen
now. His death is going to be,
there's going to be a big provocation.
She knows her. She knows her countrymen.
She knows they're going to react strongly.
She knows they're not just going to take it lying down.
So that's just a double, another double whammy that she lost her,
her lover, the only person in the world that that meant this
much to her other than her children, which is a different
sort of love, obviously, and she fears for her country.
Now, you know this this all backfired so badly and the the
the outcry is going to be so severe that it will probably,
it's not certainly lead to more violence.
So I just can only imagine, I don't want to linger on it
because it's not a very pleasant thought like what's going
through her mind because it's a procession back to Dorne.
It probably wasn't like a brisk trot.
They move slowly probably. And you know, that's how
mourners work, right? Usually just go kind of nice
easy pace and people follow along and and express their
grief. You go, you know, that's kind of
the point. So she's the one to bring him
back to Sun Spirits. It's actually Gregor's body that
causes arguably even more of a storer in Dorne.
In some ways, less in some ways more than others.
So yeah, let's let's talk about that.
What I've called this section is the skull and the speech Sir
Baillon Swan arrives with The skull claims to belong to Sir
Gregor, and a feast is held, which we see through the eyes,
not of that skull, but of Ario Hota Via.
It would be weird though, if we saw it through the skull.
In the Watcher chapter, Doran commands that the box containing
the skull be opened, and Maester Kaliot brings it from Sir Bailon
to him. Arianne is sitting to one side
of Prince Doran Illaria on the other, and here's what happened
next. Quote A hush had fallen across
the hall. Doran holds its breath.
Master Kaliot set the box on the floor beside Prince Doran's
chair. The maester's fingers, normally
so shore and deft, turned clumsy as he worked the latch and
opened the lid. Reveal the skull.
Within hotel heard someone clear his throat.
One of the Fowler twins whispered something to the
other. Alaria San had closed her eyes
and was murmuring a prayer. I.
Wonder what she's praying for. It might be to that lysine love
goddess, but might not be. It might just be like, I hope
this doesn't, you know, may this, may he be at rest.
May this help put him at rest. May this not provoke more
violence, I don't know, but there's a lot of things.
It's not hard to think that there's plenty of things that
would be on her mind that would she want to pray for.
Yeah, I think she's praying that this will be the end.
OK, you got Gregor's head now we're done.
That's what everyone wanted, right?
We got it right. This should be enough.
Right. And Tywin is dead by then, too.
That's important as well. Like Tywin was killed by Tyrion
in the most embarrassing, ignoble way, like after the
result of that duel. So it's all kind of connected to
that. So some people might even like,
give partial credit to the Red Viper for stirring that scene of
the the series of events that led to Tyrion killing Tywin.
You know, so they could give him a little bit of a point for
that. So.
But also her, I mean her daughters are now fatherless.
I mean there's a lot. There's going to be a ton of
things on her mind. Yeah.
Maybe praying for peace, protection, anything.
Just emotionally devastating loss.
You know, it's not hard to think that there'd be a lot on her
mind. So we don't know what it was.
But there's a lot of things possibly now perhaps she's
praying for, like you said, Sean, for peace and and that's
that comes up here. She the thing that Doran says a
few minutes later of Sir Gregor quote.
I only pray that now he is burning in some hell and the
Elia and her children are at peace.
This is the justice that Dorne has hungered for.
I'm glad that I lived long enough to taste it.
At long last the Lannisters have proved the truth of their boast
and paid this old blood debt. So he wants the cycle of
violence to end, too. He quotes at one point his
unnamed mother telling him at the Water Gardens.
Look at these children. Consider them first in all that
you do. So hilarious probably subscribes
to that way of thinking and I wonder if, well, not if.
I wonder what conversations Doran and Olaria had upon her
return to Doran with Oberyn's body.
And they talked about the dangers that are coming or just
just supported each other a bit because Doran doesn't really
include her and his plans going forward, understandably, partly
because she doesn't want to want to be a part of it and partly
because she has other concerns, partly because she's not
ambitious or political and. Do you think there's any chance
they had a conversation off screen?
Oh yeah, I do and. That he knows.
So he knows her sentiment already at this point that
she's, you know, a Peacemonger. Yeah, a Peacemonger.
Yeah. So when the toast is made to
King Tommen, many do not drink. Hotah is very aware he's looking
around, trying to see who drinks.
Who doesn't? And the others don't, but Ilaria
does. Ilaria drinks to peace and she's
sitting at the high table, so it's very notable that she
drinks to peace and and so does Doran.
Well, actually Doran doesn't because he doesn't drink at all.
He drinks his own. He doesn't drink wine, he drinks
his own. So he was like he has an excuse
to not drink because he's he drinks his poppy juice
separately. So but it's still a signal of
her attitude. A lot of people in the hall,
she's at the high table, she's drinking very like openly and
and toasting to peace and all that.
But not everyone actually knows what an advocate for PC is.
I don't know if everyone in the room is aware of her position,
maybe they become aware of it later, but how outspoken had she
been about this prior? We don't, we don't know.
But she's still declaring it very openly through through her
action. And maybe she's trying to set an
example. Like even if if if Oberyn's the
person Oberyn was closest to or the two people Oberyn was
closest to can put this away, then maybe they should too.
Most of them probably won't, but it helps.
Probably might might change a few people's minds.
She needs to be the one to set the example.
You know, whether it works or not.
If it's going to work at the hope is in her and Doran.
There's no one else that can do it.
And the flip side is, if she's like calling for blood, she'll
get it like that. So just by not doing it, it
makes a huge difference. Yeah.
So not only does she live out this attitude, or at least she
starts to, because again, we don't know when it began for
her, but she provides us with possibly the best conversation
on the topic of cycles of violence.
This comes a little later when they are looking at the skull
after the event is over and they're in private.
So George gives this great speech to her, this
conversation. First it starts with o'bara
saying quote. She gave the skull a mocking
kiss. This is a start I'll grant.
A start, said, hilarious and incredulous.
God forbid I would. It were a finish.
Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory
Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in
murdering Elia and her children, Even Joffrey, who was not yet
born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine
own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath.
Who else is there to kill? Do Marcella and Tommen need to
die so the shades of rainies and Aegon can be at rest?
Where does it end? It ends in blood as it begins,
said Lady Nim. It ends when Casterly Rock is
cracked open so the sun can shine on the maggots and worms
within. It ends with the utter ruin of
Tywin Lannister and all his works.
The man died at the hand of his own son.
Alaria snapped back. What more could you wish?
I mean, seriously, she's so right.
Like what? More like it's.
It really is like a good if this isn't a stopping point like.
I want to, I want to point out here.
I think I had it here. The the next line, her answer is
I could wish that he died at my hand.
Yeah. It's not that they just want
vengeance, that they want to get vengeance.
They want to be the ones that do it.
It's not enough for vengeance to be done or even for them to win
the battle. They want to be the ones they
being, you know, people who were hope bent on vengeance and not
thinking about peace or the children or all the other things
that should be higher priorities that they want to get it
themself. Or even not thinking about how
it's a much sweeter vengeance again for your own, for his own
son to. Kill him, that was.
Like that is bad like that seems.
Failure. Yeah, that seems better than you
killing him. Yeah, I agree.
Like, it's like it's like vengeance.
It's like they're treating it like it was a pie.
They didn't get a slice of, you know, it's like, hey, I didn't
get my slice. It's like, yeah, but the pie, it
was distributed and it's it was a good pie.
It was a very good pie. But no, there's a wrinkle here,
which is that they aren't worried about the skull
ultimately because there doesn't seem to be any point to
switching the heads. They talk about it.
They're like, hey, is this really Gregor's skull?
You know? And they're like what purpose
would there be to fooling us about the skull?
Like, I we a McGregor definitely was poisoned by the the
manticore venom. So there's no doubt that dude
died. Right.
And what's the point of switching the skulls Like what
could possibly be the point of that?
Well we know magic maybe necromancy or something and
might be involved but they can't conceive of that possibility.
So they're like yeah it's might not be his skull but why would
she do that. And and yeah, they they they
because there's no good answer. They they kind of leave it at
that. But we do know that it's
probably not Gregor's skull and so that will be upsetting again
later. I'll come back up later when the
two of the Sand Snakes go to King's Landing and they're like,
all right who's the 8 footer. The other wait footer.
Yeah. On the Kingsguard, you say?
Yeah, I I did speculate that Alaria might have wondered, do
they have another Gregor? You know, what are they going to
come at us with? You know, even if somehow we
fight them off, it's not worth it.
Yeah, What is her reaction going to be?
Because she will find out eventually that actually this
dude's walking around like, she's like, what's she going to
make of that? She's like, how is that like,
what a lot of people are going to be confused over?
That and that's all the more reason to make peace.
Like even when we kill their giant warrior, they still have
the giant. Warrior comes back as a walking
zombie. Yeah, that's we.
Maybe we shouldn't be messing with them.
They might be above our, might be above our weight class.
So there is another paragraph that Hilaria says after the
change of I wanted to be me, you know, I I didn't get to any
vengeance personally. So the conclusion of her plea to
remember these are her paramour's three eldest
children. Remember Sorella's not there and
Sorella's the 4th. She's off at Old Town being
Alaris the Sphinx. They seem dead set on their
path. This is her final plea to get
them to stop quote. Oberyn wanted vengeance for
Elia. Now the three of you want
vengeance for him. I have four daughters.
I remind you, your sisters. My Elia is 14, almost a woman.
Obela is 12, on the brink of maidenhood.
They worship you as Doraia and Loreza worship them.
If you should die, must Elia and Obela seek vengeance for you?
Then Doraia and Loreza for them? Is that how it goes?
Round and round forever? I ask again.
Where does it end? I saw your father die.
Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with
me to give me comfort in the night?
Will it make me laugh? Write me songs?
Care for me when I'm old and sick?
There should be like, a pamphlet distributed to all of Westeros,
like, right. Like just get hilarious and the
screed of someone who knows, right?
Like a lot of. Yeah.
A lot of people should be taught this.
Maybe in the real world, too. Like, a lot of a lot of people
could could take a lesson from that.
So then she pretty much walked out.
After that, she's like, I'm done.
You know, you all aren't listening.
I can't hear this bloodthirstiness anymore.
I'm done. And then Nim immediately
declares after a Laurie, she's like, oh, our father loved like,
she loved our father. And he loved her, but she didn't
understand him. Oh, come on.
That's, like, one of the most naive things I've ever heard.
Like you're telling me that your father's 15 year plus partner
like they've been together that long and didn't understand him.
That's what she thought of her stepmom, obviously.
You know, not unusual. I think for a daughter like that
should be like, I know my dad and you don't know my dad.
That's a good point. That's a very good point.
Yes, the stepmom kind of thing. Or not stepmom.
It's not like that, not married, but like, I still don't think
it's like, it's childish. It's not mature.
Like it's. You're right to point it out
that it's wrong, but I think it's you're.
Right. Yeah, you're right to point out
that rub. I I didn't take note of that.
You're totally right to point that out.
That is a thing. And Doran then looks at her
like, are you nuts? He doesn't say that.
But he's like kind of corrects her.
He's like, you know a good heart and a gentle mind.
You know it may be all that it's that may be worth more than
this, blah, blah, blah. He's like you should reconsider
what you just said. Basically he puts it
diplomatically but he like gives her a look like it is noting.
She wants revenge. Oberon wanted revenge, like she
there's a difference between understanding and agreeing, but
that that's where she's coming from.
And Doran, even though he's kind of the, I don't know, putting
her in check, he has ulterior motives.
He also wants peace and doesn't want this revenge thing to take
hold. So he's not going to say you're
right, Oberon did want revenge. He's he's not going to get back.
Yeah, he's like actually going to have to side with the Sand
Snakes on this one. So but he did.
I mean he did raise them to be fighters, the older ones.
I mean he and including Elia who you know and and Obella as well
as like Obella is swings her morning star at orange trees and
stuff. We're told it's kind of cute but
also like a little bit, you know, like shows how they were
educated and Nina writes this is, it's a reflective of how you
know you can have two people who really love someone that are
really and deeply in in someone's life and they have
very different views on them. It's it's it's also very human
right. Like like a Shaya was correct to
bring up the thing about other you know stepmoms or the
equivalent in this case, this is a thing, right.
You have people that think they know someone really well but
have never seen this other side of them because they that side
only comes out with these other individuals or people have a
different type of relationship with which is why we can't be
sure Oberyn included Hilaria and some of his like most violent
plottings or some of his doesn't mean she didn't.
We just don't assume it right now.
The Nina also makes a nice comparison here with Ned.
Rob and Catelyn both clearly loved him.
They reacted to his death very differently, like Catelyn still
wanted to. Was Ellaria Ish here?
Like she at first was more about being aggressive.
But then you know as this war started, started to get going,
she was like, wait, this is too far.
This isn't what I wanted. I We went peace, actually.
But that ship had sailed already by then.
So this is another like this makes a good pair of parallel to
Ellaria. Especially if we're right that
Ellaria had a bit of it about face after Oberyn's death and
was like, oh, I wasn't such an advocate for peace before now.
I am that I've seen both sides of enough.
I've seen Joffrey dying in front of me and my my, my Paramore
dying in front of me. Catelyn may have been more gung
ho about getting revenge and justice for Bran until she saw
like all the Riverlands was just was annihilated and there's all
this stuff is happening. Like maybe it's just better if
we just try to find peace now. Like this is too much this has
gone too far. But of course it's not her
fault. But it was also too late.
Also, to make the parallel more Callen's realizing that her
children are at risk because of this, right?
Like I lost my husband. That sucks.
It's terrible. I want revenge in order to get
revenge. Now I am going to lose my
children also. OK, never mind.
I don't want revenge. I'd rather have my children than
revenge. Yes, yeah.
When she realized that, I mean, she may have, she may have had
some of his cockiness or maybe she had it on her own too.
And they they fueled each other with that.
And then then then reality check, you know, comes along.
So we can wonder what she would think if she knew Doran had them
swear to follow his plans, meaning them meaning the Sand
Snakes on his on their father's bones.
Because as much as he openly advocates for peace in that
scene with the skulls presented, he can't actually do that yet
because he finds out that Cersei is planning to murder Trystane.
Like it's definitely not over yet.
Like they can't just rest, sit back and be like we're not part
of this. Not only is Quentin over there
trying to like get Danny on their team, which obviously that
didn't work, but it's not necessarily the end of the
potential between a Dornish Daenerys alliance.
Regardless, that's that's a much later thing either way.
He can't just take a step back and be like we're not involved
because Cersei is aggressively coming after them, so.
He doesn't tell Ilaria any of this.
Like when Ilaria leaves the room because of the bloodthirstiness
that she's just done with hearing about, That's when he
pivots to like, OK, well, Ilaria is right about some things, but
I'm not telling her about this part.
There's no reason to include her in any of this news.
She's seen enough. She's been affected enough.
But this is what's happening. Cersei wants to kill Trystane,
and they're like, what? They're so shocked.
And Arya Hotas. Like, I wouldn't have thought it
possible to shock the Sand Snakes, but here we are, you
know? And of course, what's happening
for that is let's let's review the plans.
The two of them are going to King's Landing, right?
And then Obar is going to High Hermitage with Aryo Hota.
Whatever happens, Ilari is going to find out, right?
Whatever happens at High Hermitage, whatever happens in
King's Landing, Whatever else happens in King, in Sunspear,
news will reach the Hellholt. They're in.
They're connected. They're important.
House and Dorne and Harman. Eller wants to be a part of
things, and the reason that's important is that's where she
went. She went back to the Hellholt.
She is there now, as far as we know, with one of her daughters,
only one of them, Laresa, who is the youngest, seven years old.
So in terms of outlook, I think she's a rare character where I
feel pretty optimistic about her survival.
Because she's not obviously involved, because she's very far
from the others, because she's not likely to make an enemy of
any Dragons or Dothraki or young Griff's team.
The Golden Company probably isn't going to go anywhere near
the hell Holt, right? Like Ariana's up there dealing
with them, but. She's not in harm's way.
She doesn't put herself in harm's way.
Hell's Holt? Probably not a target for
anyone, so. Like, he may lead their forces
elsewhere, but she won't go with them.
She'd stay there, right? She's again not a warrior.
There's no reason for her to go with.
It's not like she's rooted there permanently.
There might be a reason for her to leave.
There could be a reason for her to go somewhere else.
But there's no obvious oh, this will draw her out.
This thing that's coming will happen, and that'll bring her
out. But no, there's just nothing
that's that clear. So her daughter Laresa also
because she's with her and is so young, I'm.
I'm pretty optimistic about her too.
Real quick. There's a good chance to drop
the Laresa name theory. Which is that OK?
Consider the four names of. My favorite thing to talk?
About Yeah, I think this would perk you up a little bit.
Elaria's first three daughters are Elia, Obela, and Duraya,
presumably Elia's name for Elia. The there's the sister, Obela's
name for Oberyn, and Duraya for Duran.
So there's one daughter for each of the three sips, the three of
them, the three siblings that that group, so one for each of
them. So if they were to name their
next child after another family member, the most likely one is
their mother, who was the Princess of Doran.
She wasn't the their father was the consort, so he was not
Martel and she was So these she's the most likely,
especially because it's girl to woman, but also because she was
the actual Princess. So to be fair, we don't know
their father's name or house either.
But obviously the Princess of Doran is a much more important
figure. So the bummer?
We don't know who that was, but Laresa is a great guest for her
name and and who came up with that theory show.
I've been seeing it from like people like Joanna Lannister and
and folks in Tumblr circles for as long as I've been in this, in
this fandom, to be honest, because we have a long standing
conversations about the unnamed Princess of Dorne and about the
Dead Ladies Club and about all that.
And yeah, people I I believe I'll attribute it.
I think it was Joanna Lannister, I think that's kind of.
What I thought too. But I didn't want.
I wasn't. Believe that was where I first
saw it. Because her and I, they're like,
we've both asked George this question at panels at Q&A.
SI asked him, and he gave me the one of the most disappointing
answers I ever got. Which is, well, she's dead
promptly, right after he read a whole section about dead
characters. So, OK, but so, but Joanna.
Lauren, she did not take that for an answer either.
And we went to another Q&A a few years later and we were in like
Redwood City in California. And that's when I asked about
Blood Raven. But she asked specifically about
the Laureza theory, like she used.
She used that theory. She's like, I'm going to come at
it from a different angle. I'm going to give him the theory
and he can choose to like. Seize on that if.
You and he just was like, I'm not.
I don't know. Yeah, he just didn't know.
So Laura, Laura's seven is the Laura's seven.
Like I said with Larry at the Hellhole, Daraya is age 8 and
he's at the Water Gardens. This I'm a little more nervous
about her because I'm a little wary of what might happen at the
Water Gardens later. I mean, she's a 8 year old
child, so it's not as likely that harm will come to her.
But this is this is that's not something I you would want to
bet on too much in this story. Can I point out how grim it is
that we when when we consider the outlook of characters that
the default question is will they live or not, even when
we're talking about children? 8 year olds swimming in the
pools like, yeah, she might not make their outlook.
Probably. Death.
Yeah, Yeah. That doesn't look great for her.
No, I, I she's probably going to be OK.
But I do worry a little bit because there we gave a theory
about the Water Gardens. It's not a super strong theory.
It's more of a head cannon like a things that line up makes me a
little seems a little ominous. But we lay that out in Nymeria
part one, the Mother Royne episode, some comparisons to
some things that got destroyed and the Water Gardens.
So might just be a reach there. But I hope it is.
I hope it's a theory that's wrong, but it is.
I will at least be able to claim credit for it.
If we're like, well, either we're wrong and so this 8 year
old girl survives or she doesn't and we at least get to be right
about our theory. Like, oh Bella, who is age 12,
is now cup bearer to the Castellin's wife at Sunspear.
The Castellin is a Martel. Manfree Martel.
He's very old. He's he's so old that he's like,
I think he might be blind. I know that's the seneschal
ricasso, but Manfree Martel is an older man.
Anyway, I'm concerned about anyone in Sunspear, like
Sunspear stuff could happen there.
But still, I'm not super worried about it because I I really
don't think armies are coming to Dorne.
And if they do, it'll be Danny. And I don't think Danny's going
to be like shredding the Dornish up, like ripping them apart, you
know what I mean? Especially not children.
So I'm not too worried about that.
But there is all, you know, you got to acknowledge the potential
danger there and she and like I said in that quote from Alaria,
Nobela and Elia worship Obara, Nymeria and Tain, their eldest,
which she doesn't mention Sorella in that.
Do they not worship Sorella? Maybe not.
They just not know her. Sorella is kind of an always off
doing her own thing and they just don't know her very well.
They might like her quite a bit if they knew her better, but
yeah. Named two daughters after
himself. Loved himself the most of all.
Annabella. Yeah, Annabella.
He's like, you know. It's true.
You got to like that. Yeah.
He's he's 2 for me, one for you, you know?
Yeah, So, yeah, So what? I'm not sure about the Sorella
thing here. That's kind of funny omission.
Like again, Sorella just not included there.
But no, it's just because she's, she's her own person.
She's a good example of someone who is independent, like Sorella
does her own thing. She's not wrapped up in these
politics. Yeah, she wants to be a Maester.
Well, she's kind of following in her footsteps, her father's
footsteps a bit by doing that. But yeah, because Oberyn went to
the Citadel too. So again, Ilia is with Arian, A
notable part of her two Wins of Winter chapters so far, which
we've covered both individual episodes for.
And Elia has major Liana vibes, Major Liana Stark vibes like
down to being good with horses. Down to being wild and
aggressive. Down to being promiscuous
flirty, all that. Well, she won't know Liana was
promiscuous, but she was probably not like, shy about
sexual matters. So and then there's this.
So being compared to Liana is not a good thing as far as your
outlook for survival. It's like, that's a tragic
figure, right? Like, oh, but there's.
And there's also this ominous moment in the caves where it's
like where you can't do that, you can't just go off like that.
You could die, die, die, die, Echoes.
And it's like, whoa, that's not subtle, is it?
So wait, who you talking to me? Is that she?
Wait, who's going to die? All of you, or just one?
Or? I don't know, But it's.
Yeah, I would say it's hard to imagine all of hilarious
children surviving. And if you had to pick one that
might die, it's going to be this one.
Elia is with Ariana, who herself is.
Ariana's survival also is very much in doubt.
Characters that do put themselves in harm's way, yes.
Very much in harm's way and could be going headlong into
the. Arms of young Griff Fagon Aegon
the 6th. Which that won't end.
Well, I don't think so. Yeah, it's hard to imagine all
of Hilari's kids living, but hey, we could be wrong and be
great. Be a nice little nugget of
happiness at the end of the story.
If you had some characters you could look at and go, you know
what, they came out all right. You know, yeah, she's had her.
She's already been heavily traumatized.
So she doesn't need any more. So it's not like she's going to
come out that great. You know, she's already lost her
lover, but it doesn't have to get too much worse for her.
So yeah, so fairly positive outlook going forward, even if,
you know, she still has to live with with with what's happened
so far. And of course, Doran is going to
go through a lot before it's all said and done.
Let's talk really briefly about the TV show.
Obviously, it was very different just to to acknowledge this
because there's not as much to say because it was so different
of characters who were included on the show but changed as
opposed as opposed to cut entirely.
So I'm not counting Stoneheart, which is kind of a Gray area
because Catelyn was included, but I'm not counting like Aryan
or Victorian. So characters who were included,
She's probably if not possibly if not definitely the most
changed, the most opposite from her book character.
In some ways it's a very simple change.
Just make her the exact opposite.
Other than like her gender, You know she's still a woman, but
like everything else is the opposite.
Like she's an out. Instead of an outspoken advocate
for peace, she becomes a person so bent on revenge that she's
willing to murder her lover's brother like she's willing to
murder Oberyn. I mean Adoran because just in
her quest to get revenge for Oberyn, it's like, and to talk
her daughters into it. Not that they needed much
convincing, but also, those aren't her daughters in the
book. Those are the elder Sand Snakes
are her daughters in the show, but they aren't in the books.
That's a pretty huge change as well, you know.
Like you're saying though, if you're looking to this for
potential clues. Will some other character who is
hell bent on revenge be willing to murder?
Dorian is. That something that could come
out possible. I think we've theorized that
that will be Dark Star, who was not in the show and the.
Per the person that is already sort of leading the anti like
leading Doran into war and do it going against the Prince of
Doran's wishes. So he might be maybe he turns
these maybe he somehow wins against Hotah and Obara.
Maybe even brings Obara onto his side somehow and then they go
after Doran. So that could happen.
Yeah something like that could happen.
It just won't involve Illaria quite quite obviously.
And cause and and the ending that Illaria and was it Nymeria?
Which which of the daughter, which of the daughters died in
prison with her? It doesn't matter.
One of them die. The two die together in prison
there and and Ilaria has to see her daughter die and then sit
there with her corpse forever. It's possible.
That's maybe what happens to the 2 Sand Snakes that are going to
the like. Maybe Nymeria and Tyene who are
going to King's Landing. Maybe something like that
happens to them while they're up there.
So that could happen. It just won't be Ilaria, it'll
be one of them instead. So just like I don't expect all
of Hilaria's four daughters to survive, although I wouldn't be
surprised if three of them did. O'bara, Nymeria, Tyene, Sorella,
all of four of them surviving seems very unlikely.
Sorella's probably got the best odds because she's the least
involved in violent stuff, but she's also right where Euron's
about to strike, so that's just not necessarily in a great place
either. She's not seeking danger out, at
least, so maybe. Maybe that gives her a little
leg up. But it's all going to come down
to the whim of the creator, me and George RR Merton.
Maybe not the whim I was going to say.
I hesitate to call it a whim. It seems like a very deliberate.
Yeah, planned and plotted out. Yes, It's not the whim it.
Could be a whim but it probably won't be.
Yeah so it's it is possible some of those TV arcs are simplified
versions of what they got from George.
You know different character like dark like I said dark Star
doing what the vindictive version of the Lari is doing
just the little law of conservation of characters.
But that's got nothing to do with book Hilaria directly.
It's possible as well that you know something changes or we
find it was something we haven't thought of.
You know they they've got brought up in in a couple of
weeks we're going to cover an episode.
We're going to do an episode on some of George's notes that have
been unearthed and that is actually going to touch on some
of this stuff which is interesting.
So we'll so hold some of your some of y'all may have some
unaddressed thoughts that we may address in that which which
includes some of the theories and and things that are going on
here. Also, I want to, as we make our
way out of this episode, I want to shout out in Deer of Armor,
the actress who played Hilarious.
And even though she was not what we wanted from that character,
given she was so much different from the book version.
It's almost like it's really hard to see a character that is
so different and unique as an advocate for peace being turned
into the opposite of that. Because you want that to be
present in the story. You want that The peace advocate
is such an important thing in a story about the horrors of war.
I mean, that's not the only thing it's about, of course, but
it's just a overwhelming theme, is that war is terrible and that
all this power is terrible, and that not having that character
was a it was frustrating. And you know, Despite that, I
still picture into your Varma as hilarious.
And when I when I read scenes with her, so despite her not
actually playing that character really I see her.
I do too like the whale like the the scream went over and die
dies is just. Like that is she's such a good
actress, so let's go through. She is now 50 years old.
She's lives in England. She was in the show Roam.
She was in the show Obi Wan. She was, she was in Mission
Impossible. She's in the as of current
season of Doctor Who, which is season 14 as of this episode.
She did voices for Dragon Age, Inquisition, Mass Effect,
Andromeda, World of Warcraft, Battle for Azeroth, and she's
currently recording the Witches novels of Terry Pratchett, which
are not out yet, but she's like the narrator for that, or at
least playing a part of it. I'm not sure if it's like full
audio production or not, but yeah, she's great.
Looking forward to seeing her in more things in the future.
She's also popular, I guess. Maybe.
Yeah, you didn't say it in Vox Machina.
Which is not something I watch but I know is popular among
listeners of ours. Cross section you know So yeah.
So she that's a really good look.
Like what you're saying a Shay like that's.
A good example. It's a kind of a real testament
to her skills. Like we did not like what that
character, how that character was written, but she still owned
the role and she's still memorable in it.
It was like, man, that plot line, very forgettable.
Except her, Yeah, like she just some people just have they're
just that good, you know, no shame, No shade on the other
actors in that plot line, you know, especially like Alexander
Siddiq who's a fantastic actor who's just given this role that
was just kind of God, Alexander Siddiq, who's one of the most
popularly fan casted characters like actors.
For Doran Martel, like so many people thought, that's who Doran
should be. And yet, no, what a waste.
Yeah, even he's like, even he's a little salty about it
afterwards. Like he's he's pull.
He's like diplomatic about it. You can tell he doesn't want to
talk about it like a few times. It's like seen quotes in like
magazines or on YouTube or little clips.
It's like he's just, I mean, that's what they did.
They made their choices, you know, I think about how many
people might have been in his, like, yeah, or his comments.
They're like Doran's. Such a cool car.
Like, he has so much he's going to, you know, like he probably
was influenced by the fandom to expect more too.
Yeah. So bummer bug, bummer.
Remember at You know when the show was on I?
Hadn't read the books yet and you know, up through season.
Four, I was excited about these Dornish characters, LeBron and
Laurie and so on. When we got to season five, I
was like immediately, even though, like, we're trying to
be. Positive and tactful.
But I was still so so frustrated by the Sand Snake scenes and
baffled even like I and and I didn't have this expectation of
how great it was in the books to be upset at me.
Even without that, I was still frustrated and baffled.
So I can't just regular bad. Yeah.
OK, so the. Trivia answer.
Where did Oberyn? Martell Foster at its house
Corgile, the sands Castle sandstone.
Again, he tells the scorpion story.
It's nice, fits so well there that he was fostered there.
He's the one that tells the scorpion story.
It fits nicely into a little anecdote about it.
He's like I'd rather have the scorpions in Cersei.
Smoothly done, George. A good example of how well he
slides in historical anecdotes, makes them fit in without it
being like a big divergent from what else is happening.
It's yeah, it just fits. A nicely good example of that.
We will of course be back next week.
In the meantime, here are some other episodes you might want to
check out. The Aryan Winds of Winter
chapters are a good example. The two of those, there's very
fun to talk about what's coming. Nymeria, of course.
The Mother Royne episode. I'm not talking about Nymeria.
The Sand Snake. This is the Nymeria AS AKA the
first Princess of United Dorn and hardcore houses, which was
just last week. We talked about Corgile and and
Uller and and Umber and Mormont. Those aren't mentioned in this
episode, but they're part of that one.
And I probably mentioned some other ones that I'm now
forgetting about because you know our discussions, you never
know exactly where they're going to go.
We have a lot of notes. This was a 19 page document for
this episode, but there's always a few things that that we talk
about that we didn't plan for. Sometimes that's other episodes.
So I know there's always a one or two that I oh like the Lyseni
episode we talked about least quite a bit in this one And that
is also when we have an episode on Sean.
Would you like to acquire a cat while we're doing our outro
here? I could do that.
Sean gives a he gave a knowing nod for those of you not
looking. He's like yes, a.
Cat Oh yeah, I've got. A cat right down here.
A cat of black and white, in fact.
So thank you all to those of you who are supporters of us,
Whether you do so on Patreon at patreon.com/history of Westeros
or if you are a Spotify supporter, you can sign up
directly through Spotify. If you already have a Spotify
subscription, you can kind of just seamlessly combine the two
things. Look at that, A cat of black and
white, I will rub the belly. He has quite a bib, he's a good
boy, a big boy. Thanks as well to Nina.
Congrats again to Nina for her pending nuptials for her recent
engagement and as well to James, her partner.
Thanks to Joey and Jesse for the music.
Thanks to Bran the Builder for being a part of our front end
technology, our intro for House of the Dragon.
Here's Xerxes the cat also on screen.
And Sean's got a cat. So also thank you to Michael
Clarkfeld for our video intro and for the maps you see behind
me, not for the posters you see behind Sean.
Michael Clarkfeld did not design the movie posters for either
Star Wars or Amelie. So, you know, set the record
straight on that one. Thanks as well to our Benjaner.
But he could have. He could have, Yeah.
Sean has the skills for that. Yeah.
He chose. Not to Oh, look at that getting
nose bumps there from your Kitty.
Well, with that little bit of sweetness we shall leave you
until next time. We hope you'd enjoyed this
episode on the peaceable and respectable.
I'd say a person to be like hilarious and.
Rarely is there a character that I say be more like them in the
story. It's hard, but she is a good
example of that, perhaps one of the top ones.
So be more like Hilaria in real life and we'll see you next
time. Until then, Valarri Ritas the.