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Hello. 
Fellow us dorian's. 

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We sure do have a special 
episode today, over an hour of 

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conversation with the man 
himself in his own office. 

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George r.r., Martin, we were a 
little nervous, not him really, 

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we've met him before and he's a 
super, super nice guy, a real 

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fan of fantasy Sci-Fi games 
Miniatures. 

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As you can see if you're 
watching the video version he 

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lives and breathes and writes 
this stuff. 

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He's way more famous and 
successful than And we know but 

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he's still one of us when you 
get down to it. 

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A lot of people ask us what 
George is like and every time I 

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say that he's very chill and 
very down to earth and friendly 

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and that remains true in this 
interview going into the 

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interview. 
I wasn't worried about him being

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a bad interview subject. 
I was just worried something 

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would go wrong. 
Like, a technical problem that 

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we'd lose the recording or 
something like that. 

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That's always a fear when you're
recording, but it's always it 

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Peaks women in moments like 
this. 

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This George is no stranger to 
interviews and we assume most of

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you out there. 
Have seen heard read all the 

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above him interviewed before, so
we wanted to try to do things 

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differently and we wanted to 
deliver on that expectation. 

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We set ourselves. 
A goal, we tried not to ask 

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questions. 
He's heard before we asked a few

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more, Lord world-building 
questions. 

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We've course, didn't ask 
anything about Winds of Winter 

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because that would have been 
wasted time and we didn't have a

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lot of time. 
He's never going to answer a 

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question like that. 
Anyway, so In mostly we just 

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listened. 
He does not need much to get 

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going. 
He's obviously a natural at 

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holding court and at 
storytelling he gives lengthy 

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answers almost everything. 
That's great. 

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It's what he wanted. 
The only downside is that we 

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couldn't ask as many questions 
as we wanted that included a lot

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of the great questions y'all 
sent us. 

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We crowd sourced a lot of good 
ones but most didn't get asked 

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we didn't even get to ask most 
of the ones we wanted to ask but

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hey no biggie. 
Yeah this wasn't a short session

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at Tall and I think we overall 
accomplish what we set out to 

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do, which was record, a 
conversation with George r.r. 

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Martin, that contained some new 
questions and that will be 

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widely accessible afterwards 
that's why it took a little bit 

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longer to get out. 
Ash a here, went through triple 

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Max effort to make the subtitles
perfect looking up the spelling 

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of every person place or thing 
George named. 

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So we highly recommend that you 
watch the video version because 

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it uses multiple cameras in To 
the perfect subtitles and 

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because you'll get to see 
George's cool stuff all over the

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room that we recorded in but of 
course as always the audio only 

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version is perfectly solid as 
well. 

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Yeah. 
What you're about to hear? 

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And see was recorded on 
Thursday, August 18th a few 

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hours before. 
All of us George included saw 

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House of the Dragon episode 1 at
his John kocktail Theater. 

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Enjoy if someone's watching or 
listening to this interview they

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probably read or listen to all 
of your interviews. 

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Use. 
So let's try to go on some 

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unshredded on ground. 
Yeah. 

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Your they're mostly 100 or so 
there's a lot. 

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Yeah, right out there. 
I mean, so many. 

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Yeah, it's a great. 
Great reason, our listeners are 

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the types who are very 
experienced. 

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They're not new. 
They have it. 

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They dread the series. 
Most people have registered more

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than once. 
So they, they have heard 

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interviews you before. 
This is almost certainly, any 

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lizard. 
Washer was probably heard 

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interview with before. 
So like I said in advance, this 

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will be edited. 
So if anyone who's my favorite 

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color, we won't ask. 
We know it's Victoria and you 

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said it many times but no, we 
will be edited. 

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So feel free if you like put 
that off the Record or and say 

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this but don't worry about 
saying. 

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So we wanted to bring up want to
talk about topics, like House of

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the dragon writing, an 
adaptation fandom itself and 

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conventions and some listeners. 
So many questions as well. 

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Just to let you know, we're 
going to talk about today, okay?

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Um, one thing that we thought 
was really interesting when we 

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wrote a little bit of a chat 
Chapter about your Works called 

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The Game of Thrones effect and 
there is a lot of references to 

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A Song of Ice and Fire and 
things like scientific taxonomy.

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Like there's a lot of species 
name that we are. 

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You aware of all of them today 
let you know about every one of 

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these. 
Not everyone I've heard about 

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the a few over the years where 
someone has had some new kind of

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cricket or she were more 
something like that has been 

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named it either after mostly 
after my characters and after me

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my the most yeah there's there 
Perhaps, he's a big ass was a 

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new one, it's a dinosaur 
dinosaur. 

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And there's I don't know how to 
say this but it's Oxford roaster

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of Arms. 
This is the okay spider, of 

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course. 
And there's a there's a really 

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funny one. 
Speaking of the deep sea worms 

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that youth, there's a Hodor and 
drill. 

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They say combined Lord of the 
Rings with hope a very weird 

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decision by those scientist but 
good on them I'm very cool. 

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Send me a list of all the yeah. 
Yeah that's probably like 20 or 

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something named after your 
characters and tolkien's out 

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like 100 plus So you got a while
to go, I know reasons. 

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However, my no one has yet named
a star or planet, or any no, 

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terrestial kind of thing I've 
ever met or crater on Pluto. 

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I mean, there are other best 
science fiction fantasy writers 

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who have been things like that 
named after them. 

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I was just in time. 
Yeah. 

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When I began, if you probably 
probably know. 

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Oh yeah, I mean oh I always 
wrote fantasy too but when I 

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started in the in the 70s, When 
I first started publishing 

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professionally fantasy, get 
token had been big but he was 

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considered a freakish 
one-of-a-kind thing. 

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Oh, this is not a genre, this 
is, you know, a best-selling 

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book that was very big but no 
one will ever duplicated. 

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So fantasy was sort of minor 
compared to the markets for 

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science fiction and and I wrote 
a lot of Science Fiction in 

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those days. 
It's interesting. 

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Yeah, we've read your When 
Worlds stuff, I've read all of 

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it and it's amazing. 
Is there any is there any 

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thought to I know that night 
fires was a thing? 

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Is there any thought of any of 
the other ones getting adapted 

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or yeah. 
Where I mean, we occasionally 

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talk about things like that 
night, Flyers was adapted twice 

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once there's a movie in 1987. 
And then as the TV show, that 

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came on on the Syfy channel just
a year before last, I think it 

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was Saint Kings was also adapted
as a, to our previous. 

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Year of the revived Outer 
Limits. 

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Hmm. 
And their various people have 

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tried to make shanking movie 
over the years. 

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There have been a number of 
screenplay is written and some 

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better than others, but so far, 
we we haven't actually got a 

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green light on that. 
Mmm. 

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That is something I did. 
I wish more to fans understood 

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where I could really, sometimes 
I wonder from the comments, I 

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get whether whether that all of 
the fans were readers out there,

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understood how Hollywood works 
and all that, you know, I I have

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a large back list of stories and
books that I wrote. 

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I wrote like 70 or 80 short 
stories, many of them, the 

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Thousand World stories you're 
referring to. 

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But also a few fantasies you 
science fiction stories that 

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took place in other universes, 
number of contemporary horror 

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stories or historical horror 
stories. 

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I wrote a number of novels 
before and I had 20 years from 

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1971 when I fold my first story 
to 1991 which is when I began 

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Game of Thrones. 
And Other Stories are out there 

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and I have agents and managers 
who are, you know, eagerly 

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trying to sell the rights to 
them. 

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And every time one of them cells
and we make an announcement, I 

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get this wave of people angry, 
he's not working on Winds of 

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Winter. 
He's now working with stay 

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working on it, don't you 
understand? 

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If I wrote that 2000 of the 
story of 1979, someone bought 

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it, they give me a big pot of 
money and a good luck to them 

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and maybe Maybe I have a meeting
with them or a lunch. 

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Maybe they asked me my opinion. 
Maybe they don't ask me later 

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and they just do it anyway. 
But thanks my Asian say, get a 

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nice credit on it. 
And the front doesn't mean I've 

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put aside Winds of Winter to 
work on this project. 

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I might work on that project was
largely done in 1979 or 1980 for

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or whatever. 
Yes so drive me a little crazy I

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don't know if people really 
don't understand. 

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From Hollywood works or they 
don't understand, they don't. 

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We actually had planned to ask 
some questions that clarify some

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of that may be going on with 
that. 

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So that's great. 
For example, I think that 

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there's another we're talking 
about the current TV show, and 

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the past TV show, there was an 
understanding that you were more

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of a, on the consultant level. 
For the first TV show. 

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Maybe that's not the right term 
or a co-producer. 

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I don't know the exact terms but
your involvement with, as the 

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dragons out of my title, Run 
game of Bones was co-executive 

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codes. 
Like okay and now but now you 

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have now had some executive 
producer on this one and I lost 

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a CO. 
I mean, that's another thing 

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that I think the fans understand
and sometimes people in 

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Hollywood don't understand them 
either which is, you know, 

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particularly the producer title.
I remember. 

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During my first go-round in 
television back in the 80s and 

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90s. 
I was hired on Twilight Zone. 

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It was for show. 
I worked on not the original 

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one. 
Rog darling, rageful. 

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When Roger Sterling Chanel was 
but at Twilight Zone was revived

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by filled the Garin in the 
mid-80s 85 85 86 and I was wrote

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five scripts for that show and I
was brought on and I was brought

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on as a staff writer. 
That is that is probably the 

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lowest title that you can get on
on a television show. 

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And you can tell the slowest 
title. 

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This is the only one that 
actually has the word writer. 

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Ha ha like a high-tech but and 
after that, I was promoted to 

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story editor and then when I 
went to his own ends, and I went

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to beauty and beast, I was fired
as executive story, editor, 

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executive story, editor is 
better than just Orient. 

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Its Executive is technically 
work, plus sign when I and and 

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then from executive story 
editor, I got the title on 

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Beauty and the Beast 
co-producer. 

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Hmm. 
And that was a promotion and it 

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was more money and it's made me 
a better title. 

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It has the p word and it's a 
word is very, very important. 

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What I looked around and I 
should, there are no other 

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producers. 
How can I be co-producer? 

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Doesn't co-producer imply? 
That they would be like another 

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producer. 
No. 

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Co-producer is just like yeah. -
- or Surplus producer. - I'm not

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quite as high up the ladder as a
producer. 

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I'm only a co-producer. 
So, so you you go up the ladder.

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Eventually, of course, I did get
promoted to a producer and then 

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later, I got to be Co 
supervising producer and then 

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supervising producer without the
coast. 

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So, you know, you you climb 
these things later. 

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We're racing, could you, 
elaborate, it's complicated and 

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it change it all the time 
because And executive producer 

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is, you know, back in the 80s 
and 90s when I was active, there

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was most house had only one 
executive producer. 

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And that was the showrunner. 
Sure. 

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Anna was the term that the 
public never heard, you know 

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there he didn't ever see a 
screen title, showrunner Bill 

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Smith, right? 
Hmm. 

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You never see that title and the
public didn't know anything 

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about that but the showrunner 
was the executive producer. 

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He was the boss. 
Hmm, if you watch a show like 

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that would have on in those days
like Dallas or Something like 

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that. 
Usually, that credit was the 

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last credit at the end of the 
episode. 

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So, you know, you would see on 
Dallas Jr.'s 

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face. 
You would be shocked if 

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something happened and it would 
be executive producer, Philip 

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apiece. 
I still remember, I never met 

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the man, but there was his title
over Jr.'s 

228
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family a week and it was only 
one executive producer, and 

229
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,100
Twilight Zone or executive 
producer was a, Phil De Guerre. 

230
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Hmm. 
And on getting a beef. 

231
00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:47,100
So we're on Console they would 
creators they would executive 

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producers, they were the 
showrunners. 

233
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What over the years. 
I guess people have been at, I 

234
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:56,700
don't know quite how it 
happened. 

235
00:13:56,900 --> 00:13:58,800
So if we can get that early for 
my ignorance. 

236
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,600
Yeah, but I guess people have 
been executive producer on the 

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show and that showed been 
canceled and now they were 

238
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hiring onto another show, but 
they didn't want to take a lower

239
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title even though they weren't 
to show run on the later 

240
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shoulders, I have to keep my 
title so suddenly show started 

241
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having two or three or four 
executive producers. 

242
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:22,300
Now we have a lot of Executives 
answers on a lot of shows and 

243
00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,900
but only one of them were 
There's two of them is to show 

244
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:26,500
runner. 
Yes, sometimes too. 

245
00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:28,900
So it is it has gotten very 
complicated. 

246
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:32,100
So someone is kind of a new, was
it sudden term but it's a new 

247
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title is thing. 
And so, yeah, it's not an 

248
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official title but it is 
everybody knows as a showroom is

249
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he's the boss, you know, I mean,
ultimately you network our 

250
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,200
Studios, the most but of the 
people actually work on the show

251
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:47,700
to show, where is the highest 
one? 

252
00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:50,900
And, you know, obviously, on 
Game of Thrones it was David 

253
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:56,600
benioff and DB Weiss and And 
they were to show Runners, they 

254
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,600
were other executive producers 
by the end, and then there were 

255
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,300
several of us co-executive 
producers. 

256
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,400
But they will, they were two 
children as clearly. 

257
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,300
And on this new show, it's 
Miguel supports Nick and Ryan 

258
00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:11,100
condal as I have the same title 
as them, but I'm not that I'm 

259
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,300
not a showrunner and there are a
number of other people who were 

260
00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:14,800
also taken for. 
Hmm. 

261
00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:17,500
If you do this if you move 
forward to Jon Snow show don't 

262
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:21,800
need a snow lover. 
If so could you elaborate a 

263
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,800
little bit on how much creative 
Do you feel like you have on 

264
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,500
these new Endeavors, these new 
projects, Like Houses a dragon 

265
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:30,100
versus before? 
How do you feel like your role 

266
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:36,200
has changed at all? 
Yeah, I don't have any creative 

267
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,600
control as you say. 
Yeah. 

268
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,500
That is the hardest thing to get
in Hollywood. 

269
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:48,000
Yeah, no matter what the project
is, whether it's a feature or a 

270
00:15:48,008 --> 00:15:53,300
film, you know, you it's given 
out very, very infrequently. 

271
00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:57,300
I mean, you can Like a JK 
Rowling had a certain amount of 

272
00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:00,800
creative control and Harry 
Potter because every studio in 

273
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,300
Hollywood wanted Harry Potter 
and they were all queuing up and

274
00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:07,800
she demanded, you know, script 
approval and all the things you 

275
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,700
know. 
But but you don't have a man 

276
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:16,100
skip will have that. 
I mean Hollywood will give you 

277
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:18,600
money a lot easier to give you 
creative control. 

278
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,200
You can go to negotiations and 
say, well yes I have thank you 

279
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,300
for, you know, pay me a million 
dollars. 

280
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:29,000
I would like creative control as
well and they will say how about

281
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,700
ten million dollars they would 
rather give millions of dollars 

282
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,500
than any creative starting 
point. 

283
00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:39,400
I feel like you've got a lot of 
money, you have to be able to 

284
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:41,200
decide and I don't want the 
money. 

285
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,900
Give me the control weather, 
which would obviously take a 

286
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:46,700
round links attitude. 
I mean I don't really know 

287
00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:49,100
privately but yeah and 
negotiations but she had a 

288
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:53,400
number of suitors. 
What I do have is influence, I 

289
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,200
have in creative. 
Influence. 

290
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,000
Yeah, but that depends largely 
on the relationship between 

291
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,700
myself and the showrunners and 
so forth. 

292
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:10,200
I mean, I can I can make points 
I can argue and and they can 

293
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,200
listen. 
But if if they decide not to 

294
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,900
listen then you know I can I can
try to persuade it, huh? 

295
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:23,700
I mean, I don't have the power 
to hire or to fire. 

296
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:28,500
I don't have the power to 
dictate things but I have if 

297
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,500
they listen to me and then I can
be very persuasive. 

298
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:33,900
And I know this material pretty 
well. 

299
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:38,200
So so that's that's something 
and it's always changing. 

300
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,700
I mean, it's, you know, I had a 
lot of input in the beginning of

301
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:46,900
Game of Thrones partly because I
had these books out there but at

302
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:50,500
a certain part as the show went 
on, I found I had less and less 

303
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,400
influence until by the end. 
I really didn't even know what 

304
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,500
Was going on. 
I had some of these things I 

305
00:17:56,500 --> 00:18:01,700
watch like everybody else and oh
what kind of gave me a call and 

306
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:06,700
let me know. 
No I meant, you know, I have I'm

307
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:11,700
very happy with absolute Dragon.
It's very faithful adaptation. 

308
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:15,300
Yeah, there's some changes. 
But I have a great relationship 

309
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,000
with Ryan condal and Miguel 
chiffon tunic. 

310
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,800
We've got a good feeling about 
him. 

311
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:20,900
We really liked all the 
interviews. 

312
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:22,800
He's done. 
He said all the right things so 

313
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,700
far. 
Yeah, we're doing Ryan and In a 

314
00:18:24,708 --> 00:18:26,200
little while to do a later this 
month. 

315
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,300
So there are as you say a number
of other shows and development, 

316
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,600
everyone has a different show, 
runner and writer and every 

317
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,600
relationship there is is 
different. 

318
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,300
Hmm. 
So we will see how all of those 

319
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:41,200
involved. 
So, for houses, the dragon 

320
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,600
specifically, I've got a 
listener submitted question for 

321
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,300
you that I think all of us care 
a lot about. 

322
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:48,000
I'm just going to read it cause 
I think they framed it in a 

323
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,100
really good way from Curtis W 
Frank's. 

324
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:54,400
He asked, how should we treat 
House of the Dragon in terms of 

325
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,000
I would be treating it as yet 
another narrative competing with

326
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,100
mushroom and other sources. 
It is one possible explanation 

327
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:05,100
and take on the sequence of 
events but not necessarily more 

328
00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:08,100
correct than any of the others 
when they are in Conflict. 

329
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,400
It would add yet more history 
historiographic complexity to 

330
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,800
the story. 
How do you feel about that 

331
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,700
interpretation? 
Should we prioritize these 

332
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,900
interpretations over others? 
When there is an outright 

333
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,400
conflict between them? 
So speak to Cannon? 

334
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:27,500
Okay, well that's a very 
eloquently put question. 

335
00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:29,100
Yes, I think he did a good job 
with that. 

336
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:34,900
Thanks Chris what it it opens, 
you know, a very large area for 

337
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:41,100
discussion and I've been asked 
about this by various other 

338
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:44,200
interviewers in various forms 
and degrees past. 

339
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:50,100
And I often respond with the 
question, for the questioner. 

340
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:52,600
How many children did Scarlett? 
O'Hara hat? 

341
00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:56,800
Yep, I mean, in Margaret 
Mitchell's novel. 

342
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:04,800
She has three and the classic 
MGM movie from 1939 or so she 

343
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:10,300
has one Which is real. 
How many children should you 

344
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:11,600
have? 
Which should you bleed? 

345
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,300
Candy, what candy were talking 
to me? 

346
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:15,400
Or the book? 
Yeah. 

347
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:21,200
And of course, it's a trick 
question because the The real 

348
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,300
answer is she had none because 
she never existed. 

349
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:30,300
She's a fictional character that
was made up. 

350
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:41,000
So it's a story and there were 
two different ways that they 

351
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,700
chose to tell the story though, 
the filmmakers simplified it. 

352
00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:50,100
They didn't want to deal with 
the children of her first. 

353
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:55,400
Binge and they took them out and
as far as I can tell very few 

354
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,300
people have missed them. 
Although not a big part of the 

355
00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:02,300
gun with the wind fandom, who 
knows maybe debating it over 

356
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:06,600
over there, even probably are 
it's there is a Gone With the 

357
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,200
Wind fandom to probably has to 
be adverse over popular. 

358
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:17,700
Yeah. 
So This is this somewhat the 

359
00:21:17,708 --> 00:21:20,100
same question that you know that
I deal with. 

360
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:24,300
I mean I wrote the books I 
presented the story at least for

361
00:21:24,308 --> 00:21:34,200
the first five books and as we 
got into it Dave and Dan David 

362
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,500
amazing faithful adaption in 
many ways but not 100% faithful 

363
00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,800
Doctrine. 
They started making changes even

364
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,600
as early as season one. 
And I remember, I had 

365
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:52,000
discussions with them back in 
season 1 When I was more 

366
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,400
involved in the process, when we
discuss things and and like the 

367
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,000
fact that they are removed 
jeyne, Poole was very girly 

368
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,000
thing. 
They actually said, oh no, Jane 

369
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,100
pool the Senate, you see the 
girl that's sitting next to 

370
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:08,000
Sansa in the one seen in the 
feast Winterfell. 

371
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,700
And yes that so that's chain 
pool but you never hear a name 

372
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:18,900
and she's not in it but I did 
tell them yes but there's the 

373
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:23,100
butterfly effect as I called it.
Going driving from the famous 

374
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:25,100
red grape, adverse story of 
Sound of Thunder. 

375
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:29,600
You know, you crush a butterfly 
in the Jurassic and suddenly you

376
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,800
change the old human history 
from that point, forward 

377
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,700
unintentionally a little change.
In a long narrative can have big

378
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:41,000
changes for the wrong and I've 
Gone With the Wind didn't have 

379
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,800
to worry about that because 
those two children that they 

380
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,700
removed, never had any impact on
the story. 

381
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:50,700
And Margaret Mitchell, didn't go
on to write six more novels. 

382
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,900
In which the children grew up 
and became the leader of the Ku 

383
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:58,500
Klux Klan. 
Whatever the hell he might have 

384
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:02,400
done with them to two boys and I
think they were both boys deal. 

385
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:08,600
Rhett's daughter with the girl 
so she didn't have to deal with 

386
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,800
the butterfly effect there. 
But you know, when we remove 

387
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,400
jeyne Poole from season 1, then 
you don't have Jane pool 

388
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:23,000
available for to be. 
Fake Arya as happens in the 

389
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,500
book. 
So what do you do then are in 

390
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:29,100
the butterfly effect? 
As has done that, I think you're

391
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:31,200
familiar with the expanse. 
I think one of the best 

392
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,800
adaptations would be an example 
would be the expanse TV show 

393
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,900
where they have the writers in 
the writers room. 

394
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:39,900
And I remember I was reading the
books as the show aired and 

395
00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:42,000
there were some things that 
happened in season 1 or was 

396
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,900
like, that's not in the books. 
And then I got to book five and 

397
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,400
they were adapting things in all
the way there, and I think they 

398
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,000
really really show. 
And how much having the author 

399
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,500
there to be like, actually, this
is going to be important in a 

400
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,200
book. 
I haven't even published yet. 

401
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,800
So like maybe keep that in can 
be really important. 

402
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:00,800
Yeah. 
And tie and Daniel well, you 

403
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,600
know, Ty was my assistant for 
years and and, you know, was 

404
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,700
part of, you know, somebody 
premiers and events and things 

405
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:12,600
like that I went to and they 
even went to Morocco with me, to

406
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,200
watch them, shoot, Danny's, 
wedding, and various other 

407
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,800
things. 
So he kind of due process from 

408
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,100
the inside. 
And Daniel Webster New Mexico 

409
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:28,800
and I was his teacher at a 
session of Clarion West and was 

410
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,100
in a writers group with him and 
all of that. 

411
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:36,500
So, I knew them pretty well. 
And I think they were very wise 

412
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:40,600
to go into the writers room and 
to do that because I know from 

413
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,700
the stories, they've told me 
that they encountered the, the 

414
00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:46,800
butterfly effect to, it would be
in the writers room and then the

415
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,400
show Runners, who was not them 
initially would say, oh, we're 

416
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,700
going to remove this person. 
And you know Tire Daniel say 

417
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,900
what we could do that but then 
when you get to season 4 is 

418
00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:02,400
going to be problem because you 
took that other things so yeah 

419
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,000
butterfly if I can have that but
getting back to the whole issue 

420
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,100
Cannon. 
Hmm. 

421
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,500
The butterfly effect of section 
Cannon but there's also 

422
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,400
sometimes deliberate changes in 
a show where the show runners or

423
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,200
the writers or Studio or network
wherever it comes from, it goes 

424
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:31,200
in a different direction. 
So what we're doing At this 

425
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,400
point, in the history of A Song 
of Ice and Fire Game of Thrones 

426
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,300
Westeros with everyone calling, 
we have two cannons. 

427
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:41,600
We have the show Cannon, The 
Game of Thrones Cannon and we 

428
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,200
have the Song of Ice and Fire 
Cannon, okay? 

429
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,900
Yeah, and in the, in the book 
Cannon, obviously, still reading

430
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:51,800
The Winds of Winter. 
I'm sure you all know that and 

431
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,000
then there's another book. 
Yeah. 

432
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,300
And as I write them, and I've 
said this in a previous blog 

433
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:01,300
post, I always knew two things. 
We're going to be different but 

434
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,500
as I'm writing, is the stories 
are coming live in the 

435
00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:05,900
characters coming alive. 
It's taking me further and 

436
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:09,700
further away from the the show. 
So it's going to be some very 

437
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:12,500
considerable differences. 
In the book Cannon is going to 

438
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:16,500
be quite different from the the 
show Cannon as we get deeper 

439
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:18,500
into it. 
I would love to cut so many 

440
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:20,900
characters, how could it not be 
different on that alone? 

441
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:23,300
Well yes, I mean I'm still 
writing about Victorian, great 

442
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:27,500
joy and and Ariane marked and I 
love, I love re on the best. 

443
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:30,000
So I was, I was devastated when 
they caught her, I thought she 

444
00:26:30,008 --> 00:26:32,800
was perfect. 
But for HBO shocking. 

445
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:34,800
Yeah. 
So but I was most definitely an 

446
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,200
to and their number of other 
characters in there, you know, 

447
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,300
at a and even some of the 
characters who are in both are 

448
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:43,600
very different. 
I mean their version of urine, 

449
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,800
Greyjoy is day and night for my 
actions of euron Greyjoy and you

450
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:57,000
know, similar similar changes. 
So So there are two different 

451
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,500
tenants now because most of 
these shows that we're 

452
00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:04,100
developing, almost all of them 
are prequels. 

453
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:14,400
I think it's a single Cannon 
because both all of these 

454
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:20,100
prequels can lead up to Game of 
Thrones and beginning. 

455
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:23,800
Yeah, the one that's a little 
trickier is the Jon Snow show 

456
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:31,300
cause that's the only sequel. 
that being said, There's a 

457
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:33,300
little tricky. 
I mean it keeps me, it keeps you

458
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:36,900
busy and I don't know what's 
going to come but we do have as 

459
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:40,400
I say a number of different 
chosen development and everyone 

460
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:47,900
has a different show runner but 
everyone also has me and in some

461
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:51,600
capacity. 
And you know some other other 

462
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,100
people that I work with him. 
One of them T mikkel? 

463
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,100
Yes. 
Has he changed? 

464
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,100
She is I think Tino's for 
backup. 

465
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,700
Westeros then, then I do 
sometimes, I wasn't, she says an

466
00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:08,800
amazing breasts but and she's 
been a consultant on many of 

467
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,400
these shows in development. 
But what I want to avoid and I 

468
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,100
don't know how many shows are 
going to go, hopefully more than

469
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:20,000
one. 
Yeah. but as I said, we have the

470
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,700
book Canon and we have to show 
Cannon, but I don't want to 

471
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:28,600
happen is that we have 17, she 
okay. 

472
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,700
Yeah, yeah. 
Every, every different 

473
00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:35,000
showrunner besides that they can
in different direction and 

474
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,100
nothing makes any sense because 
there's no consistent set that 

475
00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:41,700
connective tissue. 
Absolutely, lucasfilm has their 

476
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:45,100
story group as they call it. 
And it's a set group of people 

477
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:48,000
who are in charge of managing 
keeping things, relatively 

478
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,900
consistent, who has that 
lucasfilm for Star Wars, It's 

479
00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:55,500
called The Story group. 
And I think it's a really, it 

480
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:58,200
doesn't seem to have Necessarily
worked out the best for them. 

481
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,300
I don't know. 
But in general they're trying 

482
00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:03,600
some inconsistency this thick 
and they have they have fun 

483
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,100
better than the show. 
Yeah they've got some good Star 

484
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:10,200
Wars books out there that are 
but they're trying to have a 

485
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,900
consistent cohesive universe as 
it were yes they're also been 

486
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,500
one of Ruthless with that and 
they abolish the expanded 

487
00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:20,500
universe and service. 
Yeah they well they did it but 

488
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:22,800
only so that they could add it 
back in. 

489
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,300
There are things from the 
original expanded universe that 

490
00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:29,000
they're adding Back in like 
there they added thrawn back in 

491
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,900
for example, so they are they 
kind of just wiped the state 

492
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:34,300
slate clean. 
As it was already, it wasn't 

493
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:52,700
What the fans have to keep in 
mind and I hate to say this 

494
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:54,900
because I don't want to sound 
like I'm attacking offense. 

495
00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,700
I look the Phantom a fan, myself
have been a huge franchise, but 

496
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,500
we're making this shit up. 
There is no real, you know, if I

497
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:10,500
go back and I read his novel 
about the World War 2 or 

498
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:14,300
something like that, I'll be 
expected to get it tight. 

499
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:19,000
And history is what it is but 
here, whether it's Harry Potter 

500
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,700
or Star Wars or Star Trek or 
loaded Rings or my stuff when 

501
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:26,600
making this stuff up, and then 
someone comes along and they 

502
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,900
want to change something or make
it up differently. 

503
00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:33,000
And usually if you're somebody 
like me, you don't like that. 

504
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,300
You like the way you did it, you
did that way for a reason, but 

505
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:43,400
it is the way the process works 
and especially when you're being

506
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,200
adapted or when you're, you 
know, I think the word Canon and

507
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:51,500
I haven't looked this up, I 
maybe Completely wrong, but I 

508
00:30:51,508 --> 00:30:54,400
think the word can and actually 
derived out of Sherlock Holmes 

509
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,100
fandoms The the Baker Street 
Irregulars and all that you're 

510
00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:02,300
Sherlock Holmes, became one of 
the most popular characters in 

511
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:05,700
the world, not only in Britain, 
but all around the world he was 

512
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:10,500
he was one of point. 
I remember at At least, back in 

513
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:16,000
the 60s and 70s is probably 
different by now, but I remember

514
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,700
reading an article that said in 
every country in the world, 

515
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:21,800
there are three characters that 
everybody knows Tarzan, 

516
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:29,600
Sherlock, Holmes, and Superman. 
Now today it did, that might be 

517
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:30,400
different. 
Yeah. 

518
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,800
But in Sherlock Holmes was huge 
and a lot of people started 

519
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,500
writing, you know, later when 
their own Sherlock, Holmes, 

520
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:40,900
stories. 
And And pastiches, you know, 

521
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:46,300
when home stories were stolen 
the copyright and Arthur Conan 

522
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:51,700
Doyle was still alive, they had 
to disguise them, you know, you 

523
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:54,100
can. 
Like I think it was August 

524
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:58,200
derleth, wrote a series of 
stories about a Consulting 

525
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,800
detective in England, called 
solar ponds and he was trulock 

526
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,100
homes for one by has a different
name. 

527
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,200
You can read digital solar pond 
story. 

528
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,000
If there's But the point is the 
biggest street Irregulars, which

529
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,000
I think was the big group for 
homes things. 

530
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,500
I know none of that stuff 
actually happened. 

531
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:20,200
There show a lot. 
None of these stories by later 

532
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,100
people. 
The cannon. 

533
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,400
And that's where I think think. 
The first ones is only the stuff

534
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,400
written by Arthur Conan Doyle 
himself. 

535
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,100
That is the Canon of his hand. 
Everything else is just you know

536
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:39,400
Fannin semi Cannon Fannin 
headcanons Is a lot of variance,

537
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,300
I think it will get a little 
hung up on Canon just, you know,

538
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,700
enjoy the series. 
So you do when it, it's one of 

539
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:48,100
these things that, you know, how
do you define the word to find 

540
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:50,200
the word, I'll tell you. 
What's kind of, you know, you 

541
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,500
mean you can't say? 
Yeah, no, probably don't have 

542
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:59,500
ever had three children because,
you know, sheep, so I guess if 

543
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:02,500
I'm going to re-ask the question
and the question would be, are 

544
00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:06,700
some of the interpretations in 
House of the Dragon, the true 

545
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:11,100
telling or I'm not some Would 
you really playing that in? 

546
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:16,900
Yeah, one fire was that guy was 
playing with the history with 

547
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:21,000
actual history and writing. 
This is a fake history book and 

548
00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:25,100
I had a lot of fun with that and
I know some readers didn't like 

549
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,900
it, they wanted a traditional 
model of our listeners, loved 

550
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:30,000
it. 
I'm sorry. 

551
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,200
I really went out of my way when
that book was coming out to say 

552
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,400
because I didn't want anyone to 
buy it and be disappointed 

553
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,900
because it wasn't like the 
others they contain. 

554
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,300
This is not a Inaudible this is 
not a novel. 

555
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:43,700
I even went on my website, when 
like the Yuba nomination of made

556
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:47,600
do not nominate this for better,
you know, if you like it, I 

557
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,100
wouldn't mind nominated for best
related work, which I thought 

558
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,800
was a category fit in, maybe it 
actually didn't fit in that 

559
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,500
category. 
I don't know. 

560
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:58,000
You better. 
I'd be a little obscure but it 

561
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,500
was not a traditional novel. 
It was a I called it fake 

562
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:04,200
history at first and then stolen
my readers said, they hated that

563
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:11,000
terms sort of quality imaginary 
history but it is, it is it is a

564
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,400
pseudo history of sorts written 
by an in World character, long, 

565
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,300
long time ago, before I even 
dreamed of Game of Thrones or 

566
00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:24,400
any of the books, I was writing 
my, what would have been my 

567
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,300
fifth novel if it had been 
published which was a set in, 

568
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:35,000
1890s New York Historical, far 
novel Journey are a great era of

569
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,400
yellow journalism and I had a, 
you know, killer was on the 

570
00:34:39,408 --> 00:34:43,000
loose and Had three reporters 
from rival newspapers, chasing 

571
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:48,199
him. 
The the Newark Journal, which 

572
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,600
was published by William 
Randolph, Hearst the New York 

573
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,400
Herald, which is published by 
James Gordon Bennett jr. 

574
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,500
And the New York World which is 
published by Joseph, Pulitzer 

575
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,200
had a lot of fun with that. 
I worked two hundred pages of 

576
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,600
it, but that's another long 
story. 

577
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:07,200
Everyone, anyone ever could 
never could sell it, but I'm 

578
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:09,800
such as he still have it just 
sitting in the archives. 

579
00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:12,900
Yeah, actually, just published 
in a did not repay fragment was 

580
00:35:12,900 --> 00:35:16,000
published quartet that I did 
years ago. 

581
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,500
When I finish one or two 
Watchmen, the point of the story

582
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:24,200
is Pulitzer. 
Pulitzer's newspaper. 

583
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,900
The newer world was very 
successful and he built a 

584
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:31,400
building for it on Publishers 
Row in New York City, where a 

585
00:35:31,408 --> 00:35:35,000
lot of newspapers were unlike 
the same block and he built this

586
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,500
building. 
We would had a golden dome on 

587
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:39,100
the top and at the time it was 
built. 

588
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,700
It was the tallest building in 
the world. 

589
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,800
First the tallest building in 
New York City and I was building

590
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,900
in the world. 
It was kind of funny. 

591
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:51,100
It was built right next to the 
headquarters of the New York 

592
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:54,100
Sun. 
Which was a paper edited by 

593
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:58,000
Gaming, Charles Dana who was a 
kind of a margin and didn't like

594
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,100
Pulitzer much and so they had a 
rivalry but the world was much 

595
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,900
bigger than the Sun so said Bell
Pulitzer can spit down on the 

596
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:09,000
side but anyway, I'm 
researching. 

597
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:13,700
Researching book and this is the
tallest building we're in now 

598
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:15,800
doesn't exist anymore. 
Many years later. 

599
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,700
I was knocked down to build an 
approach for the Brooklyn 

600
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:18,700
Bridge. 
Hmm. 

601
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:22,600
And I'm reading well how many 
stories that have and I'm 

602
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,200
reading these theories or so. 
It had remember numbers had 15 

603
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:34,200
stories, and wait a minute. 
This other book 14, 14, 15, and 

604
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,900
then I encounter one, what had 
20 stories, what what, it's not 

605
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:42,600
famous building in the world of 
time, and they can't even find a

606
00:36:42,607 --> 00:36:45,900
reputable source as to how many 
floors it had. 

607
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:53,200
And this is only like 1880s 
Bambi's 200, this is not 2000 

608
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,900
years ago and that really 
Depressed on me. 

609
00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:03,800
Hmm, that history is it? 
I love history but it's so 

610
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,300
unreliable to know what actually
happened. 

611
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:10,200
I mean history is what I love 
about history is its little 

612
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,900
stories is full of great stories
and you can take them and change

613
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,000
them around and use them to reel
Grist for the mill. 

614
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:22,100
But there's a lot of doubt about
some of the best stories. 

615
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,700
They may have been invented 
later by singers, or 

616
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:29,600
storytellers or some Rien who 
wanted to make a point or, you 

617
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,200
know, color it one way or the 
other and the more you read 

618
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,500
about history, more 
inconsistencies you had so I 

619
00:37:34,508 --> 00:37:41,300
thought it would be fun. 
To do that and Fire and Blood. 

620
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:44,400
So when I'm I'm relating, what 
happened here. 

621
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,200
You know and I'm thinking about 
what can happen. 

622
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,500
Well I yeah, I hope this would 
be great. 

623
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,700
This would be really outrageous 
that would be and the has 

624
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,300
probably to operate just well 
it's probably what the more 

625
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:58,300
realistic version of it. 
Oh wait a minute, just this 

626
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:02,300
version makes Fred de villain 
and build a hero and this 

627
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:05,200
version makes you feel the 
villain and Fred to here. 

628
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:06,900
And then at some point, you hit 
me. 

629
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,200
Why don't I give full versions 
because his regrets are, I'll 

630
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,300
give all versions and it'll be 
fun for me. 

631
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,600
I can put in all the really 
outlandish. 

632
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,800
Girlish thing that way mushroom 
sees it, but I can also put in 

633
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,600
the things that are probably 
more resources. 

634
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,100
Yeah. 
So and that works fine for those

635
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:31,700
who like that thing, although 
some don't, but if I was writing

636
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:34,600
it as a novel with, I've been 
writing this and in the form of 

637
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,800
the books in this, Small price 
of fire like Winds of Winter, 

638
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,400
which I'm writing now, I mean, 
when I get to a chapter Winds of

639
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,300
Winter and I know something's 
going to happen. 

640
00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:47,900
Well, I how does it happen? 
One of the things I think I did,

641
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:49,500
I could do it this way, I could 
do that way. 

642
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:51,700
I have to make up my mind and 
fired. 

643
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:54,200
What? 
I do not have to be what Ryan 

644
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,400
and Miguel when they're adapting
it, they largely had to make up 

645
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,900
their mind. 
We did have some intricate way 

646
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:06,000
back in the beginning. 
Way Way Back in the beginning, 

647
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:08,500
actually. 
They were previous writers on it

648
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:10,300
before Ryan. 
But there was some interesting 

649
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:15,100
discussions about how we could 
present the material in Fire and

650
00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:19,300
Blood and, you know, you could 
do it the rashomon way if you 

651
00:39:19,308 --> 00:39:21,900
know that reference. 
Yeah, absolutely sent multiple 

652
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,900
versions of the same story. 
We could also have done a frame 

653
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:28,700
device where we could have 
included archmaester gilbane and

654
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,400
just like in, I Claudius one of 
my favorite TV shows, yeah, 

655
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:35,300
every episode is frame by 
Claudius, writing his history 

656
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,900
and then you flashback to what 
he wrote but we could have had 

657
00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:43,400
archmaester Guild Dane with all 
of his primary sources doddering

658
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,800
around. 
Well, I'm doing and oh no, but 

659
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,500
just another version and and you
could have done that, but that 

660
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:52,300
would have been. 
It would have been fun but 

661
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,300
sadly, nobody really wants to do
the frames for me. 

662
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,800
Anymore, with Claudius last duel
did it? 

663
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,200
I suppose, kind of recently a 
little bit of thing I did that 

664
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,100
was had I was an interesting Um,
pick on that. 

665
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:10,500
I like that. 
I'm not sure the world did do it

666
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:12,400
didn't do that. 
Well, obviously it's covid-19 

667
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,300
you gotta, you know, but it 
didn't do stupid. 

668
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:20,000
So you talked at you're talking 
about how, you know, working on 

669
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,200
Fire and Blood is history and 
it's very different to write one

670
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,600
thing that we like to highlight 
in our show something called 

671
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:32,300
parallel lives, which is the 
idea that there are parallels in

672
00:40:32,300 --> 00:40:34,800
your history's to current 
characters. 

673
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,800
Do you have, you got you 
something? 

674
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:38,300
From Flipkart. 
Yes. 

675
00:40:38,300 --> 00:40:52,500
Yeah, we observed It In A Song 
of Ice and Fire and Blood that 

676
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:56,300
it allows you to maybe play with
plot lines arcs for the 

677
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:57,900
characters in the main series. 
You do that? 

678
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:01,200
Consciously know. 
I don't don't I don't bitch. 

679
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,400
Have consciously a test, maybe 
it shouldn't similarities or 

680
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,600
inevitable? 
Yes, that's for sure. 

681
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,600
If anything, I try to Veer away 
from that because I don't want 

682
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,900
to feel like I'm repeating 
myself, mmm, history, just 

683
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:16,300
naturally repeats itself so 
well, yes, there are certain 

684
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,400
resonances in history and there 
are certain universals about 

685
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:24,700
Humanity. 
You know, people competing for 

686
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,600
power, people competing for love
lost. 

687
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,600
Yeah. 
All of these, all of these 

688
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,600
things, some of the things that 
sometimes and people like that's

689
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,900
a stereotype or that's Alicia 
and like, that's because it's 

690
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:36,800
true to The Human Experience. 
It's just true. 

691
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:40,400
Oof person in all the with a lot
of power being paranoid. 

692
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,700
That's a yeah. 
But that's your hands a lot. 

693
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,100
Yeah. 
That also applies a lot to 

694
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,100
regular to real world, history, 
I suppose or 22 homages. 

695
00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:52,800
What about when you're writing 
in a mosque? 

696
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,900
For example, one of my favorites
is you've included in the 

697
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,800
nightfort, seen with brand 
there, seems to be a lot of 

698
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,500
homages to Tolkien in the mines 
of Moria and seeing, which I 

699
00:42:03,508 --> 00:42:06,600
love a lot. 
Is that also some that you aim 

700
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,800
to do Batters, that also kind of
accidental or maybe you have 

701
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,000
some thoughts on your process 
there, why? 

702
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,300
I love token and actually to - 
Maury is one of my favorite 

703
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,800
favorite sections of Fellowship 
of rain. 

704
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,800
Since and that's that's my 
favorite of the trilogy 

705
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,100
Fellowship. 
Not that, I don't love them all,

706
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,700
but I don't think I was 
consciously trying to do that 

707
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:33,400
but then again, you don't know. 
I mean, you read these things 

708
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:38,400
and me Lodge sometimes in the Of
your brain but sometimes in 

709
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,500
weird corners of your brain 
where they pop up at some point.

710
00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:46,400
I did want to, you know, make 
the knife sort of sinister space

711
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:49,700
with its own Legends, it was 
very old, it's very big 

712
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:55,100
casserole crumbling and I wanted
to give it that change that so 

713
00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:57,700
many things have have gone here.
Hmm. 

714
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:00,100
Now which are true and which are
not true. 

715
00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:04,600
I mean, I always tend to look at
not only other fantasy books and

716
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,700
history, but I guess the real 
world here. 

717
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:13,100
I mean, we have these get me in 
trouble here for what I'm about 

718
00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:15,900
to say. 
But we have these legends that 

719
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:18,600
some people believe are 
literally true in our religion. 

720
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,300
I mean, you know, we talked 
about a the Garden of Eden. 

721
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,300
Was there ever actually a Garden
of Eden was there ahead of and 

722
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,400
Eve or the flood Noah? 
And the flood? 

723
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,600
That's a good one. 
I mean, that's a great story. 

724
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:37,100
God was pissed off. 
He made it rain for 40 days and 

725
00:43:37,100 --> 00:43:40,000
40 nights. 
The entire world was flooded and

726
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,700
everybody died. 
Except This guy, Noah built a 

727
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:46,500
big boat, and he got two of 
every animal on earth. 

728
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:49,600
I don't know how to kangaroos. 
Got it difficult for you to the 

729
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,500
Middle East. 
But they, but they did even the 

730
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:55,300
mosquitoes, even the mosquitoes 
have two of everything and it's 

731
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:58,900
a perfect start. 
Ricky Gervais has a very funny 

732
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:00,700
bit where he makes fun of it in 
one of his thing. 

733
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,700
What it's a story. 
It's a, it's a colorful story. 

734
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,500
And, of course, there have been 
some archaeologists and recent 

735
00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:13,300
years, we have said, well, it 
could be that, you know at a 

736
00:44:13,308 --> 00:44:19,900
certain place in 2000 BC, the 
Tigris and the Euphrates flooded

737
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,900
and the land between them would 
not the entire world but the 

738
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:27,200
Tigris and the Euphrates and 
then there was a flood and maybe

739
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:34,800
archaeology so you think 
sometimes have a source but It's

740
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,600
not the same as the story to 
story is bigger and more 

741
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,300
colorful as stories tend to be. 
I mean, if I'm picking on 

742
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:47,000
something for history to adapt 
to it, as I've often said in 

743
00:44:47,008 --> 00:44:56,100
interviews, I turn it up to 11, 
turn it up to 102, make it 

744
00:44:56,100 --> 00:45:00,900
smaller. 
I'm gonna do a story and it will

745
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:02,400
beat, you know, kind of just 
like that. 

746
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,000
Perseids Bruno, I'll make a 
small room dollar. 

747
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:11,300
No, have to make it bigger and 
cooler of one's just just read 

748
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:18,100
the orders of the Roses, or the 
Anarchy, or any of the many of 

749
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:20,600
these things. 
Do you have any authors or 

750
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,300
sources that you've read that 
were with nonfiction account to 

751
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:25,700
those? 
I'm the you think you 

752
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:29,300
recommended. 
Oh, there's a lot of cherry tape

753
00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:31,800
him in many years ago in your 
blog and I've read everything 

754
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,200
She Wrote. 
Get entry wrote a great book 

755
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,000
about the Anarchy. 
Yeah. 

756
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,000
When Christ Christ and the 
Saints slept was beautiful. 

757
00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:41,500
Stephen and Matilda has terrific
book. 

758
00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:45,800
Another author had a lot of 
influence was Thomas because 

759
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,300
stain now he was a very popular 
watering Eleanor costain house 

760
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:54,400
costain after a reference on her
face, kind of slipped in there 

761
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:58,900
would be at this point. 
I've lost track. 

762
00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:02,200
Uh-huh. 
But he was a very popular 

763
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,500
historical fiction writer of the
50s, maybe even the 40s. 

764
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,700
Hmm. 
And mostly he wrote novels some 

765
00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:12,800
of which were made into movies. 
The I think it was the Silver 

766
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:19,100
Chalice was based on one of his 
books rest and There were a 

767
00:46:19,107 --> 00:46:24,300
couple others to I'm doing, but 
he also wrote a modern fiction 

768
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,500
history of the plantagenet and 
four volumes history to 

769
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:34,000
plantagenet from where the 
plantagenet is originated and 

770
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,700
how they became the kings of 
mailing and and it's a 

771
00:46:36,707 --> 00:46:39,700
generational thing. 
So it's quite like Fire and 

772
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:42,400
Blood, you know, you know, 
there's this, you know, he's 

773
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,400
writing about Henry the second 
and then there is a second dies 

774
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,100
and you get Richard and Richard 
Dies and get John and, you know,

775
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:52,600
generation after Generation all 
the way to the wars of the 

776
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,000
Roses, which was the ultimate 
end of the plantagenet dynasty, 

777
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:59,900
he doesn't go on to tutors and 
it was really readable. 

778
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:04,600
It's full of great stories 
stories and how good it is to 

779
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,700
see history. 
I don't know, probably not great

780
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:11,000
history, but a great beat. 
Hmm. 

781
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,600
And I don't have to worry since 
I'm not a professional 

782
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,300
historian. 
I'm writing fantasy about 

783
00:47:16,300 --> 00:47:19,300
getting the history wrong. 
Or something like that. 

784
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:23,500
And yeah, I just have to worry 
about telling a great story and 

785
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:27,000
history is full of great stories
that not to say that someone 

786
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,600
can't be improved and media 
writer. 

787
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,100
Life thing turned up to 111. 
Yeah. 

788
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:36,100
What about the series? 
The accursed Kings. 

789
00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:38,800
That's an insane. 
So yes, that definitely that was

790
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,400
Maurice. 
Druon French writer. 

791
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:47,300
That's a very, very serious 
French writer in most regards. 

792
00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:52,000
He was Made part of the French 
Academy which you know garbage 

793
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,200
the French language against link
incursions from English and 

794
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:01,200
other things didn't leave that, 
but the decrease of Kings was 

795
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,100
sort of his his popular series 
of books that they are. 

796
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,700
They were also great to. 
It's about the person to 

797
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:14,100
Templars and the fall of Philip,
the fair and his three sons, how

798
00:48:14,100 --> 00:48:17,700
the dynasty Vision Dynasty 
ended. 

799
00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:25,100
And the have had the vowel came 
in and 100 years were so it's 

800
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:29,800
again, great characters, great 
story, he swaps poisonings, all 

801
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:35,200
that good stuff. 
Yes. 

802
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:37,000
What do you have next here? 
I see you. 

803
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,500
That's actually asked about 
radio cereals. 

804
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,600
Oh, yeah, we are wasn't writing 
cereals when you were younger. 

805
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:45,900
Is that a, that that's a thing 
for you? 

806
00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:49,400
You know what? 
I've heard a few of them but not

807
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:50,800
a lot. 
No whistle. 

808
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,000
I was a little too young for 
that radio was largely over. 

809
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,400
Yeah. 
By the time I was a kid and had 

810
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:03,100
a radio, I did listen to like 
sometimes late at night, I would

811
00:49:03,100 --> 00:49:06,900
listen to radio talk shows. 
Hmm, it was one guy in. 

812
00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:12,000
I was in one in New Jersey Long,
John Nebel had this show on it. 

813
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,400
We came on it, like, midnight or
something, so I have listened to

814
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,600
it in bed and he frequently had 
science fiction writers on 

815
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:21,800
Frederik, Pohl Lester Del Rey, 
they, some of the other writers 

816
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,900
Theodore sturgeon, I think we're
guests on it shows and they 

817
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:28,500
discuss outlandish things in the
middle of the night, but I like 

818
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:31,100
that show. 
But now yeah, over the years a 

819
00:49:31,100 --> 00:49:35,800
few people have made an effort 
to bring back radio drama. 

820
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,300
Yeah. 
But I don't think any of his 

821
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:40,500
efforts have ever really 
succeeded on radio. 

822
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:44,300
I think that there's something 
back in podcasts and audio. 

823
00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:48,200
Audiobook form is a lot more 
versions that have Have sound 

824
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,800
effects and voice actors in my 
that's part of why we ask 

825
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,000
because we thought that maybe 
one day, that would be something

826
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,700
that could be done with the Song
of Ice and Fire because it would

827
00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:59,300
be audio version. 
That's unabridged. 

828
00:49:59,300 --> 00:50:03,500
But it would add some data 
sounds and we do anything 

829
00:50:03,500 --> 00:50:04,600
audiobooks. 
Yeah. 

830
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,300
Right. 
But with unfortunately, the 

831
00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:10,700
Roy's Batista's passing wouldn't
be wouldn't be a complete 

832
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:13,100
cohesive thing. 
But right was amazing. 

833
00:50:14,500 --> 00:50:20,400
The Beast and think about Roy 
was He was an actor, he whom and

834
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,700
there are a lot of audio books 
out there. 

835
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:26,300
And there are people who make 
their entire career as reading 

836
00:50:26,300 --> 00:50:28,400
audiobooks. 
And some of them are really, 

837
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,200
really good but they are 
readers. 

838
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,800
Yeah, their readers, Roy came 
into it. 

839
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,700
Not reading the book by acting 
the bookends, giving every 

840
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:43,200
character his own voice. 
And, you know, it's a little 

841
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,400
strange at times because, of 
course, I can easily write. 

842
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,000
So and so said, This in a 
dornish accent. 

843
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000
Well, there's no Jordan shefte 
so we write would have to make 

844
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,100
it up as they. 
Well, I love that will make that

845
00:50:54,100 --> 00:50:57,700
a Spanish accent or something. 
I'll get back this guy. 

846
00:50:57,700 --> 00:51:00,400
Speak Welsh a Nolan. 
Ryan was a master of accents and

847
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,100
all that what he was doing when 
he started that but he was as 

848
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,600
old as I am. 
Now when he started doing that 

849
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,400
and so he's doing women, he's 
doing eight-year-old, boys. 

850
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,100
It's a, it's a challenge but he 
did her amazing job for it, he 

851
00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:19,300
really did. 
I've listened to his audio books

852
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:21,300
if they were taped I would have 
worn them out. 

853
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:24,900
Yeah, he is phenomenal. 
I've lost a lot of other out of 

854
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:28,600
your books and there's just the 
voice acting is acting aspect is

855
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,800
I've never run into anyone who's
done in like there's nobody 

856
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,200
quite like what we have. 
Sounded good audio book readers 

857
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,400
to Harry Lloyd, Rich. 
Tom and Ian Glenn. 

858
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,200
You know, some of the dunk and 
egg stories and then Fire and 

859
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,300
Blood and stuff. 
So yeah, we've had some good 

860
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:45,000
readers. 
I would, I would love it if you 

861
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,300
could get to readers. 
I just I really think The series

862
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:50,200
that there's so many characters 
I think having a woman and a 

863
00:51:50,207 --> 00:51:54,100
man's voice would do so much for
my enjoyment because it's hard 

864
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:57,600
to hear a man. 
Do a child's voice, you know, 

865
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,400
listen to the wildcards 
audiobooks. 

866
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:04,000
No, I haven't, they do you do 
that for that? 

867
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,600
I'll have enough to check that 
out. 

868
00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:09,500
Wait we have yes make sense. 
There are you know there are 

869
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,100
many well quite books but I 
think only eight of them. 

870
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:14,800
Maybe nine of them exist on 
audio books. 

871
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,500
Down the first two, the first 
two were done. 

872
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:20,700
For one company. 
Brilliance I think and they were

873
00:52:20,700 --> 00:52:24,000
done with a reader. 
So one guy reads but if you know

874
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,800
the wild-card books if you read 
them, their Mosaic novel. 

875
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,200
Yeah. 
Are many different Viewpoint 

876
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,600
characters intercutting either a
separate stories or sometimes 

877
00:52:31,900 --> 00:52:33,700
fully into cut in the same 
narrative. 

878
00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:40,300
So when we get to the third book
I believe it was we for 

879
00:52:40,300 --> 00:52:42,600
complicated reasons. 
I won't get into, we switch to a

880
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,500
different company and we wound 
up with random house audio and I

881
00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:50,100
was able to Suede them to have a
different reader for each. 

882
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,900
Sorry, very cool. 
Very cool. 

883
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,800
Now, there's still issues there 
because even though let us say 

884
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:04,400
the story, the protagonist for 
maybe Waterlily say. 

885
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:11,500
And so we got four Waterlily. 
We got a woman, we got my friend

886
00:53:11,500 --> 00:53:15,300
Lena Esco who's been in swat 
and, you know, some other things

887
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:17,300
and she read what a little is 
story. 

888
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:19,900
But in what a little story, 
there are other characters 

889
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:22,300
appear. 
So, you, she was still reading 

890
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:26,500
and finding there were scenes 
where, you know, Hiram, 

891
00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:30,600
Worcester peers, or yo, men or 
some of the other people and, 

892
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,400
and that's true in everything. 
But we did have a separate 

893
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,800
reader for, for each character. 
I think, from volume 3 up to, 

894
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:44,100
like Volume 8 or so. 
And then, for complex reasons we

895
00:53:44,300 --> 00:53:46,300
stopped, but we're about to 
resume again. 

896
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:49,400
I think that's exciting. 
We will, we will have more of 

897
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:50,100
those. 
Yeah. 

898
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,200
Hmm. 
But if you get too many readers 

899
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,900
then you get into the issue. 
Well, is this a, you know, 

900
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:59,200
there's legal issues? 
I mean is this a Is this an 

901
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,300
audiobook or is this a radio? 
Yeah, ization. 

902
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,300
And I have the right to do an 
audio book. 

903
00:54:06,300 --> 00:54:09,900
I don't have to right to do a 
radio authorization, you know, 

904
00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:13,600
that those kind of complex, 
absolute things, come up here 

905
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,700
and make a lot of sense. 
I wouldn't have thought about 

906
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:18,300
the difference in how its 
defined and how that affects 

907
00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:20,100
your rights. 
But of course it would and if 

908
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:22,900
you start adding sound effects 
or anything like that then then 

909
00:54:22,900 --> 00:54:27,500
you're right over into the agent
radio and so that HBO's like 

910
00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:30,600
Hello this Is the little bit too
close to Game of Thrones 

911
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,800
interesting. 
It's interesting to. 

912
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,100
I mean I'm just speculating 
here. 

913
00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:42,900
I don't want to seem like an 
expert but I know the rings of 

914
00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:45,100
Power is coming out that came 
thing. 

915
00:54:45,100 --> 00:54:47,300
Yeah but there's also something 
called the right of the door 

916
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:48,800
here. 
Mm that's coming out. 

917
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:52,100
Yeah that is done by tirely 
different people. 

918
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,800
It doesn't get all the right 
side and it's a what, it's an 

919
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:00,500
animated, a little audio. 
I'm not clear on Yeah I believe 

920
00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:01,900
so. 
Yeah that's that's a strange 

921
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:04,800
situation the way those rights 
got portioned out. 

922
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:10,500
Its yeah not typical but poke 
him with probably the greatest 

923
00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:16,900
fantasists long time but He was 
an innocent babe in the woods at

924
00:55:17,100 --> 00:55:19,700
dealing with Hollywood and these
things. 

925
00:55:19,700 --> 00:55:22,400
I mean, if you look at the 
original animated things long 

926
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:27,700
before, Peter Jackson he sold 
the first two books too. 

927
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,200
Was, it was Ralph bakshi. 
I think we did Fellowship in a 

928
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:39,100
ring and the two towers but it 
was hosted have been error or 

929
00:55:39,107 --> 00:55:40,600
somebody like that. 
It did what it was. 

930
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,800
Then the did the third one, the 
third one, or they also did The 

931
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,900
Hobbit. 
So The Hobbit and The Return of 

932
00:55:48,908 --> 00:55:53,100
the King or done by one 
animated, and the first two are 

933
00:55:53,107 --> 00:55:55,400
done by a different one. 
How did he manage to generate 

934
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,100
those in the hell was 
representing? 

935
00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:02,600
And So it seems a different 
world back then. 

936
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,700
Yeah we should maybe ask about 
games. 

937
00:56:05,700 --> 00:56:09,800
Now, there are a lot of games 
Based On A Song of Ice and Fire 

938
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,900
many, many games, there's both 
official ones and unofficial 

939
00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:14,800
ones. 
And I would, we move at The 

940
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,600
Unofficial ones. 
Are we were curious. 

941
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,500
If you had heard about these 
unofficial ones or not, we were 

942
00:56:20,500 --> 00:56:24,200
curious as well, if any of them 
were particularly interesting 

943
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,100
for you to see realized there's,
you know, there's the board 

944
00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:29,000
game, the card game, the 
tabletop game. 

945
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:33,100
Mmmmm the video games are so 
many of those artificial their 

946
00:56:33,100 --> 00:56:34,500
things, right? 
Those are. 

947
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:41,200
All right, you know, Dark Sword,
which works with see Mo n you 

948
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,700
doing the yeah, the the 
Miniatures of knowing you see I 

949
00:56:45,707 --> 00:56:47,600
have some of the Miniatures 
weeks to work for the community 

950
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,400
more and they're doing the 
tabletop Miniatures game and all

951
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,100
that, but then I had Fantasy 
Flight was doing a card game and

952
00:56:56,100 --> 00:56:59,000
still are and various people 
have done before. 

953
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:05,100
Games that actually became you 
know somewhat of an issue way 

954
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:08,700
back when you know I mean the 
books the first book came out in

955
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:13,900
1996 and the second book came 
out in 1999 and third book came 

956
00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:18,400
out in 2000 and you know by that
time the books were very 

957
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,100
popular. 
Each one with more popular than 

958
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:21,500
others. 
I was hitting the best selling 

959
00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:23,800
list. 
So I had various people 

960
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:28,100
approaching me with offers for 
subsidiary rights as they were 

961
00:57:28,100 --> 00:57:33,600
gold. 
And I like games. 

962
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,500
I love Miniatures that I had 
here was thrilling, you can see 

963
00:57:36,500 --> 00:57:37,800
it. 
My collection here will around. 

964
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:44,100
Yeah, we sure can when nights 
and nutrition and you know, my 

965
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:46,600
agent got involved and we 
negotiated deals. 

966
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:52,300
And we assign some of these 
replicas swords with chalak 

967
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:55,400
incorporated, or liberal area of
Steel as they call themselves 

968
00:57:57,100 --> 00:58:03,700
Dark Sword with the miniatures. 
The coins which are done by. 

969
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:06,000
Yeah childish. 
We love that. 

970
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,700
I made all these these deals and
a couple others besides, I won't

971
00:58:11,700 --> 00:58:14,900
go into any in it. 
Well, you go forward to like 

972
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:20,800
now, 2007-2008. 
I've turned down like half a 

973
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,500
dozen people who wanted to make 
movies to these right? 

974
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:30,400
And David, meet David and Dan on
legendary lunch at the poem. 

975
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,000
Los Angeles. 
It turns into dinner, walking 

976
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,100
for hours. 
And I said, okay. 

977
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,000
You seem good guys to work with 
here. 

978
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:40,800
Go ahead and see if you can sell
it to HBO. 

979
00:58:41,300 --> 00:58:44,800
I was out of TV. 
But then for so long, I mean I 

980
00:58:45,100 --> 00:58:49,400
guess I've been very active in 
TV, 10 years roughly up to the 

981
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:54,600
mid 90s, but, you know, this was
like 2007, there's a 12 years 

982
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,900
I've been largely out of TV, 
they weren't going to let me 

983
00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:00,300
run, the show will be the show 
runner or even do that. 

984
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:03,800
It was like, your guy working TV
back in the Stone Age but Dave 

985
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:07,400
and Dan were hot writer and I 
thought HBO was H4. 

986
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,500
We all agreed on that. 
So they sold at HBO, but then we

987
00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:13,000
start to try to negotiate the 
deal with HBO. 

988
00:59:14,300 --> 00:59:17,000
And my agents took charge you no
money, rise title. 

989
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,200
All that stuff also, she answer 
always fine and all that went 

990
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:25,600
fine but suddenly we hit a bump 
on the subsidiary rights and if 

991
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:29,700
you're saying well, we get all 
the subsidiary rights and I said

992
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:33,300
well I can't give you all the 
subsidiary rights because I have

993
00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:36,500
these like 8 contracts here. 
I had just got has miniature 

994
00:59:36,500 --> 00:59:40,900
rights And this guy has replica 
sword, writes, and this company 

995
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:42,500
has card games. 
They can't give you those 

996
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:46,100
because that word and actually 
kind of puzzled by that fit. 

997
00:59:46,100 --> 00:59:49,000
Their legal department saying, 
no, wait, wait, wait, you can, 

998
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:55,000
we always get on subsidiary, we 
have this interesting Sopranos, 

999
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,900
we have all the subsidiary 
rights to all of our shows, you 

1000
00:59:58,900 --> 01:00:03,500
know. 
And I said, stand that but I 

1001
01:00:03,500 --> 01:00:06,700
can't give you right to that. 
I no longer own because I've 

1002
01:00:06,700 --> 01:00:12,500
sold These other people, it's 
just so we finally got that 

1003
01:00:12,500 --> 01:00:16,800
through them and we got the deal
that cut out those rights. 

1004
01:00:20,100 --> 01:00:23,900
Although it does have, you know,
Clauses in that that only so 

1005
01:00:23,900 --> 01:00:29,600
long as those Things are active,
do they keep the rights? 

1006
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,400
If Valyrian steel, for example 
ever stops making sense words. 

1007
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:39,600
After certain point, those 
rights good HBO nation and the 

1008
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,200
Valyrian steel guy is actually 
pretty pretty smart because the 

1009
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,300
first thing he did was make a 
deal with HBO. 

1010
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,800
That's why there are two 
versions and you can see them 

1011
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,000
around the house, you know, 
there's a huge cannon, you know,

1012
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:56,200
he makes the show Sword and the 
bookstore. 

1013
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,100
I think you're sitting in front 
of the book version of needle. 

1014
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:07,000
Oh, right there. 
And the show version of needle 

1015
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,200
is somewhat different. 
So, let's see, we have some 

1016
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:13,900
listener, submitted questions, 
we would like to get into some 

1017
01:01:13,900 --> 01:01:17,100
personal questions when here, 
maybe this is my be very 

1018
01:01:17,100 --> 01:01:21,200
quickly. 
Yeah, quick question, would you 

1019
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:27,600
say that folks in your world of 
Song of Ice and Fire. 

1020
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:32,700
Two individuals, have or believe
in the soul with the concept of 

1021
01:01:32,700 --> 01:01:33,900
it. 
Or would you say that it 

1022
01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:37,300
actually exists there? 
Or is that too dramatic? 

1023
01:01:37,300 --> 01:01:41,000
But yes, I mean, I don't think 
I've ever used that word. 

1024
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,400
You Flex shade or go, Shane 
Shadows ghosts, but I think it 

1025
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,400
depends on what religion you 
follow. 

1026
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:50,700
A number of them, certainly 
believe in some sort of 

1027
01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:54,300
afterlife, you know, the worship
of the old gods. 

1028
01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:56,200
Believe that. 
Give me your spirit goes. 

1029
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,200
To, you know, the weirwood trees
or if your war of you get this 

1030
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,500
the second life, where you get 
to live as a whole, or wolf, or 

1031
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:09,200
bear or something, but 
eventually all the souls, if you

1032
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,600
will, or the spirits, go to the 
same place, but the ironborn, 

1033
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,800
you know, won't think you're 
having a big party which is 

1034
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:23,200
around 11 to see, you know, and 
his sort of wet Valhalla and you

1035
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,000
know, the faith of the seven 
believes in. 

1036
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,300
Seven Hills and seven heavens 
and all of that stuff. 

1037
01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:33,800
So, there is some belief in the 
in the afterlife. 

1038
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,200
Yeah. 
But as more and more religions 

1039
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,000
come into the world is like, 
spend it, you probably see more 

1040
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,200
and more different. 
So let's ask about a couple 

1041
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,100
questions about valyrians that I
have here. 

1042
01:02:47,300 --> 01:02:51,100
Did valyrians from non Dragon, 
ride and writing families, 

1043
01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:55,800
practice incest as well and did 
valyrians other than targaryens 

1044
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,100
have It dreams, if you can 
answer either of those. 

1045
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:04,900
No, I don't think I particularly
would. 

1046
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:06,700
I mean I haven't really thought 
about that. 

1047
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,600
That's are not served by right 
to change my mind but no, I 

1048
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:14,300
don't think it was a specific 
reason for the, for the incest, 

1049
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:19,700
which was to, you know, I mean 
obviously they don't have, these

1050
01:03:19,700 --> 01:03:21,600
are medieval people and ancient 
people. 

1051
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:25,000
They don't know about DNA or 
jeans or any of that stuff, 

1052
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:27,900
what? 
They have some rough concept of 

1053
01:03:27,900 --> 01:03:30,800
it in which they attribute to 
the blood. 

1054
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:35,300
Well, this guy had blue eyes 
Tires and his children and blue 

1055
01:03:35,300 --> 01:03:41,500
eyes but if he marries someone 
with brown eyes from on our kids

1056
01:03:41,500 --> 01:03:45,500
have brown eyes - that they have
some think so yeah, we can 

1057
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:47,200
control dragons. 
We don't want to lose that 

1058
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:49,000
ability. 
Not everybody can do that. 

1059
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:53,400
So we better, we better keep it 
in them in the family so to 

1060
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:57,200
speak or at least with the other
bragging reigning families. 

1061
01:03:57,300 --> 01:04:02,400
Hmm, now, there was I haven't 
gone much into it but There was 

1062
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:07,100
another very powerful group in 
Valerio who were not necessarily

1063
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:08,700
the Dragon Riders. 
Hmm. 

1064
01:04:08,700 --> 01:04:12,000
And those were the people who 
practiced blood magic. 

1065
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:17,200
Hmm. 
And which, you know, just some 

1066
01:04:17,300 --> 01:04:21,200
overlap in the Venn diagram with
the Dragon Riders but not 

1067
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:25,100
necessarily complete overlap. 
And then there were just the 

1068
01:04:25,100 --> 01:04:27,100
regular people. 
There were a lot of slaves 

1069
01:04:27,100 --> 01:04:30,300
because the slave Society, there
were a lot of poor people. 

1070
01:04:30,300 --> 01:04:32,700
I think of ancient Rome Or 
something like that. 

1071
01:04:32,700 --> 01:04:37,000
Yeah, I don't know that they 
would have any reason to 

1072
01:04:37,900 --> 01:04:41,100
practice incest, okay. 
But you said with the, but the 

1073
01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:43,100
people who work blood magic, 
they wouldn't necessarily have 

1074
01:04:43,100 --> 01:04:46,900
to, you know, they lost their 
with their pets on how they find

1075
01:04:46,900 --> 01:04:48,300
their magic. 
Okay. 

1076
01:04:48,300 --> 01:04:52,800
What about the felt? 
And I know here, I'm an outlier,

1077
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,600
because I think most of fantasy 
writers contemporary Federal 

1078
01:04:55,600 --> 01:05:02,800
program disagree with me, but I 
never wanted to Devise a magic 

1079
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:07,500
system, there's quality, but a 
fantasy writers, you know, very 

1080
01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:12,100
proud of their magic systems. 
They divide 9 magic and sorcery 

1081
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:15,700
is, it's not part of the natural
world. 

1082
01:05:15,700 --> 01:05:20,000
It's supernatural. 
It's unnatural, it's dangerous. 

1083
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:28,500
And, and if you If you make it 
so systematic that, okay, if you

1084
01:05:28,500 --> 01:05:34,100
take the eyes of a newt and the 
balls of a bat and the blood of 

1085
01:05:34,100 --> 01:05:39,100
a virgin and mix them together, 
you'll get the potion, just then

1086
01:05:39,100 --> 01:05:43,300
you've just, you've taken a 
magic out of magic and you've 

1087
01:05:43,300 --> 01:05:46,800
made it science, but you've made
it fake science science. 

1088
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,100
It doesn't really work and I Not
interested in that. 

1089
01:05:52,100 --> 01:05:57,100
I mean I think you look at the 
history of magic in the real 

1090
01:05:57,100 --> 01:06:01,700
world magic and for most of 
human history people believe 

1091
01:06:01,700 --> 01:06:03,800
that they it was magic to was 
sorcery. 

1092
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,100
They believed they were dragons,
they believed in witches. 

1093
01:06:08,300 --> 01:06:10,600
What did their magic actually? 
Work food mr. 

1094
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:13,100
Magic actually work than they 
would have ruled the world, 

1095
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:15,500
right? 
Yeah. 

1096
01:06:16,900 --> 01:06:19,900
Sometimes, you know, if 
something got a bad case of 

1097
01:06:19,900 --> 01:06:24,000
boiled, Blame the old woman down
there down the road that gave 

1098
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,100
you the boils for you didn't 
like her so and then if you 

1099
01:06:28,100 --> 01:06:32,200
could convince people, they 
might hanger or set on fire but 

1100
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:33,500
she couldn't get boils to 
everyone. 

1101
01:06:33,500 --> 01:06:39,200
Or it was magic was unreliable, 
it was dangerous and and I think

1102
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:45,100
that's also true dragons and 
what magic and everything kind 

1103
01:06:45,100 --> 01:06:47,200
of magical sorcery spells on my 
world. 

1104
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,600
It's not, it's not easy. 
You're invoking things. 

1105
01:06:50,700 --> 01:06:55,200
Maybe you shouldn't mess with 
their what is in some accidents.

1106
01:06:55,200 --> 01:07:00,300
Presumably and yes. 
And there have been sample of 

1107
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:10,500
whom the whole area. 
There's a little less accidental

1108
01:07:10,500 --> 01:07:15,200
and a little more deliberate on 
the faceless men's part, but we 

1109
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,600
won't make you say anything on 
the record but there are 

1110
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,400
theories about it not 
necessarily, you know, Theory. 

1111
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:24,200
There are three of everything 
you've written in Honduras. 

1112
01:07:25,900 --> 01:07:28,500
Like people arguing about it and
having theories about it. 

1113
01:07:28,508 --> 01:07:30,600
Yeah. 
But his hand all of that stuff. 

1114
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:32,100
Yes. 
Yeah we wanted to tell you some 

1115
01:07:32,100 --> 01:07:35,200
of the like fandom adjacent 
terms like we could you know 

1116
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,200
you've dumped some of them in 
world. 

1117
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,400
Like for example you created the
Red Wedding and cold it such in 

1118
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,800
the world. 
But then fans came up with the 

1119
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,700
term, the purple wedding for 
Joffrey's wedding or the pink 

1120
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:49,400
letter for the pink letter, 
which you probably know what 

1121
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:51,300
we're referring to. 
Yes, I do. 

1122
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:53,300
Those terms do not appear in the
book. 

1123
01:07:53,300 --> 01:07:56,200
Yeah, they don't. 
So I think the golden wedding 

1124
01:07:56,200 --> 01:08:00,400
but yeah, that was a good one 
there. 

1125
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,600
And there's some other fun ones.
Like people I hate when people 

1126
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,200
use the term of fag on because 
it's very spoilery and not 

1127
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:11,200
necessarily accurate. 
I just call him young Griff but 

1128
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:14,700
that is a term that people use, 
okay, have you heard that term 

1129
01:08:14,700 --> 01:08:18,800
before facing? 
And it does indicate that 

1130
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:20,600
they've already made you made 
their mind? 

1131
01:08:21,500 --> 01:08:26,500
Yeah, I'm gonna stay taken 
serious inside about this, but 

1132
01:08:26,500 --> 01:08:28,600
I'll just call me young Griff 
because lots of people have not 

1133
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:30,100
gotten to that point in the 
series yet. 

1134
01:08:30,100 --> 01:08:32,899
So let's let them. 
Yeah. 

1135
01:08:32,899 --> 01:08:36,100
Arm and that's a huge, you know,
getting back to your question 10

1136
01:08:36,100 --> 01:08:37,899
and that's a huge kind of 
sketchy. 

1137
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:42,000
Yeah, that's not exist in in the
doesn't Butterfly Effect 

1138
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,200
coordinate TV. 
Show eating is in a big way in 

1139
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:49,899
the books but yeah so I wanted 
to talk about a couple personal 

1140
01:08:49,899 --> 01:08:54,600
things as As well. 
You have told us in the past and

1141
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,100
we were at was very random. 
We were at a lunch with you and 

1142
01:08:57,100 --> 01:09:00,100
you mentioned cat that you had 
named Asha and how she was a 

1143
01:09:00,100 --> 01:09:02,300
killer. 
And I just enjoying to know ever

1144
01:09:02,300 --> 01:09:04,800
since what are the other names 
of your pets? 

1145
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,500
I know it's a silly question but
I would like to know everyone 

1146
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:09,300
would like to say but yeah, sure
is gone. 

1147
01:09:09,300 --> 01:09:18,000
Oh but she was a great kid. 
But yeah, I don't have many cats

1148
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,700
named from my books. 
We've had a few hundred years. 

1149
01:09:22,100 --> 01:09:26,899
We had it at a certain period, 
my wife Paris and I Harris is of

1150
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:29,500
Irish descent among other 
things. 

1151
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,000
And she likes Irish history and 
not and I'm also partly Irish 

1152
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:39,200
but not not quite as much as she
was, but at a certain point, you

1153
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:40,899
know, I mentioned I Claudius 
today. 

1154
01:09:40,899 --> 01:09:43,899
Yeah, I loved. 
So we had made it. 

1155
01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:48,600
Cat named Augustus and we had a 
cat named Caligula which of 

1156
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:50,000
course is Roman from Little 
Boots. 

1157
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,800
Harrison Hungarian is not a big 
fan as room siren. 

1158
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:58,200
Refused to Coldplay dealership, 
golden boots, but Augustus and 

1159
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,400
Caligula. 
Sadly are both bone. 

1160
01:10:01,300 --> 01:10:07,200
Although Sid assistant who's 
been coming down without any 

1161
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:08,700
inspiration. 
For me, completely 

1162
01:10:08,700 --> 01:10:11,000
independently. 
She has a cat named Caligula, 

1163
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:15,300
had a cat named Claudius. 
And that was where I was going. 

1164
01:10:15,300 --> 01:10:17,100
I want to name our next step 
40s. 

1165
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,900
I wanted to name a cat. 
Messalina. 

1166
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:21,200
Are his wife? 
Wendy? 

1167
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,300
Harris? 
You know, threw down the 

1168
01:10:24,300 --> 01:10:27,300
gauntlet and no, no, you've had 
your Romans now, it's my turn to

1169
01:10:27,300 --> 01:10:31,100
name it catch ha ha ha. 
We had some Irish catch their. 

1170
01:10:31,100 --> 01:10:36,000
I still have one branya named 
after the famous female pirate 

1171
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,800
of the Irish sea. 
We had a couple Irish name, Cat 

1172
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,900
still, very cool. 
I've got a question about Paris 

1173
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:45,800
specific. 
We at a convention years ago, 

1174
01:10:45,900 --> 01:10:48,100
you told a story about your 
first. 

1175
01:10:48,100 --> 01:10:50,600
Real meeting with Paris in the 
sauna. 

1176
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:53,900
Yes. 
Yeah in 1975 public on and thing

1177
01:10:53,900 --> 01:10:57,500
that got me is that Paris had a 
very funny clip that I have not 

1178
01:10:57,500 --> 01:10:59,800
been able to remember. 
I have not been able to find 

1179
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,000
online. 
What would what if Paris say 

1180
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,400
when she saw you in that woman's
son? 

1181
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,400
Do you remember? 
I do, chi, chi. 

1182
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,400
Did I not sure your you were 
young creatures but do you know 

1183
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,900
who WC Fields has the same? 
Anything? 

1184
01:11:14,100 --> 01:11:18,500
In particular waves. 
Hmm, she came in and she did it 

1185
01:11:18,500 --> 01:11:22,700
WC Fields voice when she said, 
you know, the pros in science 

1186
01:11:22,700 --> 01:11:26,600
fiction fandom Pros as the name 
for professional writers are 

1187
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,400
conventions, their fans and 
grows and they were not just me 

1188
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:31,900
in this one up. 
But there were a number of other

1189
01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:36,200
people including Joe Haldeman, I
think and a few others, and as 

1190
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:42,600
she came in and saw us and said 
naked Pros, her best w.c. 

1191
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:43,900
Fields. 
Thank you. 

1192
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:44,800
Girls. 
And driving me. 

1193
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:46,600
Crazy for years I've been like a
had. 

1194
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,400
This really clever things she 
said and I could remember, thank

1195
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:50,700
you. 
I think I found the story but 

1196
01:11:50,700 --> 01:11:52,800
not that, I don't know. 
Ted. 

1197
01:11:52,900 --> 01:11:57,200
Now this was 1975 and I 
personally have told that story.

1198
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,300
We are in the meantime so many 
years but I'm getting, you know,

1199
01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:05,200
I mean, centuries venomous 
changing and there's all this, 

1200
01:12:05,700 --> 01:12:08,900
you know, I think if that 
happened today we would do, they

1201
01:12:08,900 --> 01:12:12,200
would call the police, we can 
tell you Dan from conventions 

1202
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:17,300
and he's got to go to a lot of 
people fooling around and 

1203
01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:20,400
conventions. 
They were having a convention. 

1204
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:24,500
I went to, the fans, would go 
skinny-dipping in the hotel and 

1205
01:12:25,100 --> 01:12:27,500
yeah, Sid wants to go back to 
those days, right? 

1206
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,100
Happy to tell you that there's 
definitely still wild convention

1207
01:12:31,100 --> 01:12:33,000
times. 
We go to some small conventions 

1208
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,800
that are like 300 people where 
if that is alive and well, we go

1209
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,700
to one called Ice and Fire con 
that is dedicated to your 

1210
01:12:39,700 --> 01:12:42,300
series. 
It's only 300 people and there's

1211
01:12:42,300 --> 01:12:43,600
been a lot of love matches 
there. 

1212
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,900
There's like a few marriages 
that have been made there if you

1213
01:12:45,900 --> 01:12:48,900
hookups, but, yeah. 
So it was fun just this last 

1214
01:12:48,900 --> 01:12:50,500
year. 
They did only no skinny dipping 

1215
01:12:50,500 --> 01:12:52,200
in the hotel pool. 
Okay. 

1216
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:56,000
I won't say that on the record. 
There is a hotel pool. 

1217
01:12:58,500 --> 01:13:00,800
That's days that I suppose. 
Yeah, what happens, a nice park 

1218
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,400
on stage, but I'm gonna start 
quick anecdote about some good 

1219
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,900
happened there last year. 
There was they host a tournament

1220
01:13:06,900 --> 01:13:09,800
in a melee every year where 
people use foam noodles, and 

1221
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,100
fun, exciting and disaster with 
and the swords are plastic. 

1222
01:13:13,100 --> 01:13:18,100
It's highly entertaining, but at
the end of it, fan duel to 

1223
01:13:18,100 --> 01:13:23,400
another fan like a quick mail, a
dual call them out, he won, he 

1224
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:27,500
declared, he was naming a queen 
of love and beauty and proceeded

1225
01:13:27,500 --> 01:13:30,000
to. 
Proposed to this woman and her 

1226
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,200
parents were hiding behind. 
And she appeared, they all 

1227
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,400
appeared and it was a really 
wonderful moment. 

1228
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:36,800
She of course she said, yes, it 
was great. 

1229
01:13:36,900 --> 01:13:39,800
And that's why she's an artist. 
That's that's his gone fully 

1230
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,500
professional mostly just great 
art in your world. 

1231
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:45,600
So I right. 
I have to tell a story there 

1232
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:48,300
too. 
I don't know. 

1233
01:13:48,300 --> 01:13:52,300
I hope these people aren't still
in the in the fantasy hurt 

1234
01:13:52,300 --> 01:13:55,100
anyone's feelings. 
But it really did this probably 

1235
01:13:55,100 --> 01:13:59,700
like, in 2002-2003 Able 2001, I 
think the Brotherhood without 

1236
01:13:59,700 --> 01:14:01,300
banners. 
Yeah, first started having 

1237
01:14:01,300 --> 01:14:03,800
Portage 2001. 
This is a couple of years later 

1238
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:10,000
but still early in the history 
and one of the fans came up me 

1239
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,800
what I copied latest book and 
said he wanted to propose to 

1240
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:17,900
this girl in the group. 
So he wanted me to write in a 

1241
01:14:17,900 --> 01:14:20,700
book instead of just, you know, 
best wishes or keep your shirt 

1242
01:14:20,700 --> 01:14:24,300
or something. 
He wanted to write, you know. 

1243
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:26,700
I don't remember what her name 
was, you know. 

1244
01:14:26,700 --> 01:14:28,800
Dear and nymeria. 
Yeah. 

1245
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,600
Will you marry aegon? 
I'm yeah, my name's but it 

1246
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,600
wasn't that it was busy and Fred
or something. 

1247
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:39,100
Yeah, he wanted me to write. 
You marry me and I can't write. 

1248
01:14:39,100 --> 01:14:40,500
Will you marry me and give me a 
call? 

1249
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,700
If you think that I'm perfect, 
I'm not proposing to her, but if

1250
01:14:45,700 --> 01:14:48,700
you want I will write, you know,
dear I'm area. 

1251
01:14:48,700 --> 01:14:50,300
We marry a God or something like
that. 

1252
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,500
Oh okay, yeah, so I wrote that 
in the book and then there's a 

1253
01:14:53,500 --> 01:14:58,000
big party that is, you know, we 
will Credit in the home, sweet 

1254
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:05,500
and and he gave her the book and
she opened it and sad to say, He

1255
01:15:05,500 --> 01:15:07,400
did not catch up response. 
He won't. 

1256
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:11,500
Are you out of your fucking 
mind. 

1257
01:15:13,900 --> 01:15:17,300
Hilarious. 
So I'm not aspirin too beat up 

1258
01:15:17,300 --> 01:15:21,200
to be an asshole to find out who
it was like watching a football 

1259
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,400
game. 
And somebody proposes in front 

1260
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:30,500
of 70,000 fans where you 
married, Joe, what happens when 

1261
01:15:30,500 --> 01:15:32,600
she says know if he's so 
dramatic. 

1262
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:38,800
As that guy ever went out And 
but for what happened to that is

1263
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:48,200
it still sitting by herself. 
That was a hard cover said, is 

1264
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:49,900
looking at a sternly? 
I think we have that. 

1265
01:15:49,900 --> 01:15:51,600
Yeah. 
And the show ended. 

1266
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:53,300
I want to say one more thing 
before we eat. 

1267
01:15:53,308 --> 01:15:55,500
What I want to say. 
Thank you to. 

1268
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:58,700
I promised some other friends 
that I would mention that also, 

1269
01:15:58,700 --> 01:16:01,900
but ice and fire con they've 
done to musicals based on your 

1270
01:16:01,900 --> 01:16:05,900
series 1, Westeros, and American
Musical which Which is based on 

1271
01:16:05,900 --> 01:16:09,300
Hamilton. 
And one is called Queens, which 

1272
01:16:09,300 --> 01:16:10,700
is based on. 
I don't know if you've heard of 

1273
01:16:10,700 --> 01:16:13,500
six, the musical, it's about The
Six Wives of Henry the eighth. 

1274
01:16:13,900 --> 01:16:17,300
And so, if you would enjoy that 
musical for one, but I just 

1275
01:16:17,300 --> 01:16:22,400
wanted to mention that you have 
inspired people to song a whole 

1276
01:16:22,500 --> 01:16:25,700
Home. 
Music music Musical. 

1277
01:16:25,700 --> 01:16:29,800
Dance on YouTube as well. 
Yeah, but yeah, it's a full and 

1278
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,500
it's they're adapting. 
A Song of Ice and Fire, not Game

1279
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:38,200
of Thrones very deliberately. 
And so yeah, that exists as a 

1280
01:16:38,300 --> 01:16:41,400
loving tribute to your works. 
And thank you so much for 

1281
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:42,600
family. 
I didn't know about this 

1282
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,100
convention. 
Uh I feel is going to do an 

1283
01:16:45,100 --> 01:16:47,600
official from yeah. 
Are doing 1 and December. 

1284
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:50,900
We are probably going to be 
going but yeah, they're all 

1285
01:16:50,900 --> 01:16:53,300
there's two fans Dimensions 
based on your works. 

1286
01:16:53,300 --> 01:16:57,500
There's ice and fire con, which 
is small, 300-person and tight 

1287
01:16:57,500 --> 01:16:59,400
and cons. 
And I said, three because 

1288
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,200
there's also con of Thrones, 
which is obviously dedicated to 

1289
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:04,500
HBO's Game of Thrones, I'm more 
specifically. 

1290
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:05,200
So, yeah. 
Yeah. 

1291
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:07,500
You've you've birthed a lot of 
stuff. 

1292
01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:12,600
A lot of fans on he just yeah. 
Yeah, you know full-size. 

1293
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:19,600
Yeah, thank you Sid. 
Well, let's just try and thank 

1294
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,100
you guys. 
Thank you. 

1295
01:17:21,100 --> 01:17:21,400
Really