Hello. Fellow us dorian's.
We sure do have a special episode today, over an hour of
conversation with the man himself in his own office.
George r.r., Martin, we were a little nervous, not him really,
we've met him before and he's a super, super nice guy, a real
fan of fantasy Sci-Fi games Miniatures.
As you can see if you're watching the video version he
lives and breathes and writes this stuff.
He's way more famous and successful than And we know but
he's still one of us when you get down to it.
A lot of people ask us what George is like and every time I
say that he's very chill and very down to earth and friendly
and that remains true in this interview going into the
interview. I wasn't worried about him being
a bad interview subject. I was just worried something
would go wrong. Like, a technical problem that
we'd lose the recording or something like that.
That's always a fear when you're recording, but it's always it
Peaks women in moments like this.
This George is no stranger to interviews and we assume most of
you out there. Have seen heard read all the
above him interviewed before, so we wanted to try to do things
differently and we wanted to deliver on that expectation.
We set ourselves. A goal, we tried not to ask
questions. He's heard before we asked a few
more, Lord world-building questions.
We've course, didn't ask anything about Winds of Winter
because that would have been wasted time and we didn't have a
lot of time. He's never going to answer a
question like that. Anyway, so In mostly we just
listened. He does not need much to get
going. He's obviously a natural at
holding court and at storytelling he gives lengthy
answers almost everything. That's great.
It's what he wanted. The only downside is that we
couldn't ask as many questions as we wanted that included a lot
of the great questions y'all sent us.
We crowd sourced a lot of good ones but most didn't get asked
we didn't even get to ask most of the ones we wanted to ask but
hey no biggie. Yeah this wasn't a short session
at Tall and I think we overall accomplish what we set out to
do, which was record, a conversation with George r.r.
Martin, that contained some new questions and that will be
widely accessible afterwards that's why it took a little bit
longer to get out. Ash a here, went through triple
Max effort to make the subtitles perfect looking up the spelling
of every person place or thing George named.
So we highly recommend that you watch the video version because
it uses multiple cameras in To the perfect subtitles and
because you'll get to see George's cool stuff all over the
room that we recorded in but of course as always the audio only
version is perfectly solid as well.
Yeah. What you're about to hear?
And see was recorded on Thursday, August 18th a few
hours before. All of us George included saw
House of the Dragon episode 1 at his John kocktail Theater.
Enjoy if someone's watching or listening to this interview they
probably read or listen to all of your interviews.
Use. So let's try to go on some
unshredded on ground. Yeah.
Your they're mostly 100 or so there's a lot.
Yeah, right out there. I mean, so many.
Yeah, it's a great. Great reason, our listeners are
the types who are very experienced.
They're not new. They have it.
They dread the series. Most people have registered more
than once. So they, they have heard
interviews you before. This is almost certainly, any
lizard. Washer was probably heard
interview with before. So like I said in advance, this
will be edited. So if anyone who's my favorite
color, we won't ask. We know it's Victoria and you
said it many times but no, we will be edited.
So feel free if you like put that off the Record or and say
this but don't worry about saying.
So we wanted to bring up want to talk about topics, like House of
the dragon writing, an adaptation fandom itself and
conventions and some listeners. So many questions as well.
Just to let you know, we're going to talk about today, okay?
Um, one thing that we thought was really interesting when we
wrote a little bit of a chat Chapter about your Works called
The Game of Thrones effect and there is a lot of references to
A Song of Ice and Fire and things like scientific taxonomy.
Like there's a lot of species name that we are.
You aware of all of them today let you know about every one of
these. Not everyone I've heard about
the a few over the years where someone has had some new kind of
cricket or she were more something like that has been
named it either after mostly after my characters and after me
my the most yeah there's there Perhaps, he's a big ass was a
new one, it's a dinosaur dinosaur.
And there's I don't know how to say this but it's Oxford roaster
of Arms. This is the okay spider, of
course. And there's a there's a really
funny one. Speaking of the deep sea worms
that youth, there's a Hodor and drill.
They say combined Lord of the Rings with hope a very weird
decision by those scientist but good on them I'm very cool.
Send me a list of all the yeah. Yeah that's probably like 20 or
something named after your characters and tolkien's out
like 100 plus So you got a while to go, I know reasons.
However, my no one has yet named a star or planet, or any no,
terrestial kind of thing I've ever met or crater on Pluto.
I mean, there are other best science fiction fantasy writers
who have been things like that named after them.
I was just in time. Yeah.
When I began, if you probably probably know.
Oh yeah, I mean oh I always wrote fantasy too but when I
started in the in the 70s, When I first started publishing
professionally fantasy, get token had been big but he was
considered a freakish one-of-a-kind thing.
Oh, this is not a genre, this is, you know, a best-selling
book that was very big but no one will ever duplicated.
So fantasy was sort of minor compared to the markets for
science fiction and and I wrote a lot of Science Fiction in
those days. It's interesting.
Yeah, we've read your When Worlds stuff, I've read all of
it and it's amazing. Is there any is there any
thought to I know that night fires was a thing?
Is there any thought of any of the other ones getting adapted
or yeah. Where I mean, we occasionally
talk about things like that night, Flyers was adapted twice
once there's a movie in 1987. And then as the TV show, that
came on on the Syfy channel just a year before last, I think it
was Saint Kings was also adapted as a, to our previous.
Year of the revived Outer Limits.
Hmm. And their various people have
tried to make shanking movie over the years.
There have been a number of screenplay is written and some
better than others, but so far, we we haven't actually got a
green light on that. Mmm.
That is something I did. I wish more to fans understood
where I could really, sometimes I wonder from the comments, I
get whether whether that all of the fans were readers out there,
understood how Hollywood works and all that, you know, I I have
a large back list of stories and books that I wrote.
I wrote like 70 or 80 short stories, many of them, the
Thousand World stories you're referring to.
But also a few fantasies you science fiction stories that
took place in other universes, number of contemporary horror
stories or historical horror stories.
I wrote a number of novels before and I had 20 years from
1971 when I fold my first story to 1991 which is when I began
Game of Thrones. And Other Stories are out there
and I have agents and managers who are, you know, eagerly
trying to sell the rights to them.
And every time one of them cells and we make an announcement, I
get this wave of people angry, he's not working on Winds of
Winter. He's now working with stay
working on it, don't you understand?
If I wrote that 2000 of the story of 1979, someone bought
it, they give me a big pot of money and a good luck to them
and maybe Maybe I have a meeting with them or a lunch.
Maybe they asked me my opinion. Maybe they don't ask me later
and they just do it anyway. But thanks my Asian say, get a
nice credit on it. And the front doesn't mean I've
put aside Winds of Winter to work on this project.
I might work on that project was largely done in 1979 or 1980 for
or whatever. Yes so drive me a little crazy I
don't know if people really don't understand.
From Hollywood works or they don't understand, they don't.
We actually had planned to ask some questions that clarify some
of that may be going on with that.
So that's great. For example, I think that
there's another we're talking about the current TV show, and
the past TV show, there was an understanding that you were more
of a, on the consultant level. For the first TV show.
Maybe that's not the right term or a co-producer.
I don't know the exact terms but your involvement with, as the
dragons out of my title, Run game of Bones was co-executive
codes. Like okay and now but now you
have now had some executive producer on this one and I lost
a CO. I mean, that's another thing
that I think the fans understand and sometimes people in
Hollywood don't understand them either which is, you know,
particularly the producer title. I remember.
During my first go-round in television back in the 80s and
90s. I was hired on Twilight Zone.
It was for show. I worked on not the original
one. Rog darling, rageful.
When Roger Sterling Chanel was but at Twilight Zone was revived
by filled the Garin in the mid-80s 85 85 86 and I was wrote
five scripts for that show and I was brought on and I was brought
on as a staff writer. That is that is probably the
lowest title that you can get on on a television show.
And you can tell the slowest title.
This is the only one that actually has the word writer.
Ha ha like a high-tech but and after that, I was promoted to
story editor and then when I went to his own ends, and I went
to beauty and beast, I was fired as executive story, editor,
executive story, editor is better than just Orient.
Its Executive is technically work, plus sign when I and and
then from executive story editor, I got the title on
Beauty and the Beast co-producer.
Hmm. And that was a promotion and it
was more money and it's made me a better title.
It has the p word and it's a word is very, very important.
What I looked around and I should, there are no other
producers. How can I be co-producer?
Doesn't co-producer imply? That they would be like another
producer. No.
Co-producer is just like yeah. - - or Surplus producer. - I'm not
quite as high up the ladder as a producer.
I'm only a co-producer. So, so you you go up the ladder.
Eventually, of course, I did get promoted to a producer and then
later, I got to be Co supervising producer and then
supervising producer without the coast.
So, you know, you you climb these things later.
We're racing, could you, elaborate, it's complicated and
it change it all the time because And executive producer
is, you know, back in the 80s and 90s when I was active, there
was most house had only one executive producer.
And that was the showrunner. Sure.
Anna was the term that the public never heard, you know
there he didn't ever see a screen title, showrunner Bill
Smith, right? Hmm.
You never see that title and the public didn't know anything
about that but the showrunner was the executive producer.
He was the boss. Hmm, if you watch a show like
that would have on in those days like Dallas or Something like
that. Usually, that credit was the
last credit at the end of the episode.
So, you know, you would see on Dallas Jr.'s
face. You would be shocked if
something happened and it would be executive producer, Philip
apiece. I still remember, I never met
the man, but there was his title over Jr.'s
family a week and it was only one executive producer, and
Twilight Zone or executive producer was a, Phil De Guerre.
Hmm. And on getting a beef.
So we're on Console they would creators they would executive
producers, they were the showrunners.
What over the years. I guess people have been at, I
don't know quite how it happened.
So if we can get that early for my ignorance.
Yeah, but I guess people have been executive producer on the
show and that showed been canceled and now they were
hiring onto another show, but they didn't want to take a lower
title even though they weren't to show run on the later
shoulders, I have to keep my title so suddenly show started
having two or three or four executive producers.
Now we have a lot of Executives answers on a lot of shows and
but only one of them were There's two of them is to show
runner. Yes, sometimes too.
So it is it has gotten very complicated.
So someone is kind of a new, was it sudden term but it's a new
title is thing. And so, yeah, it's not an
official title but it is everybody knows as a showroom is
he's the boss, you know, I mean, ultimately you network our
Studios, the most but of the people actually work on the show
to show, where is the highest one?
And, you know, obviously, on Game of Thrones it was David
benioff and DB Weiss and And they were to show Runners, they
were other executive producers by the end, and then there were
several of us co-executive producers.
But they will, they were two children as clearly.
And on this new show, it's Miguel supports Nick and Ryan
condal as I have the same title as them, but I'm not that I'm
not a showrunner and there are a number of other people who were
also taken for. Hmm.
If you do this if you move forward to Jon Snow show don't
need a snow lover. If so could you elaborate a
little bit on how much creative Do you feel like you have on
these new Endeavors, these new projects, Like Houses a dragon
versus before? How do you feel like your role
has changed at all? Yeah, I don't have any creative
control as you say. Yeah.
That is the hardest thing to get in Hollywood.
Yeah, no matter what the project is, whether it's a feature or a
film, you know, you it's given out very, very infrequently.
I mean, you can Like a JK Rowling had a certain amount of
creative control and Harry Potter because every studio in
Hollywood wanted Harry Potter and they were all queuing up and
she demanded, you know, script approval and all the things you
know. But but you don't have a man
skip will have that. I mean Hollywood will give you
money a lot easier to give you creative control.
You can go to negotiations and say, well yes I have thank you
for, you know, pay me a million dollars.
I would like creative control as well and they will say how about
ten million dollars they would rather give millions of dollars
than any creative starting point.
I feel like you've got a lot of money, you have to be able to
decide and I don't want the money.
Give me the control weather, which would obviously take a
round links attitude. I mean I don't really know
privately but yeah and negotiations but she had a
number of suitors. What I do have is influence, I
have in creative. Influence.
Yeah, but that depends largely on the relationship between
myself and the showrunners and so forth.
I mean, I can I can make points I can argue and and they can
listen. But if if they decide not to
listen then you know I can I can try to persuade it, huh?
I mean, I don't have the power to hire or to fire.
I don't have the power to dictate things but I have if
they listen to me and then I can be very persuasive.
And I know this material pretty well.
So so that's that's something and it's always changing.
I mean, it's, you know, I had a lot of input in the beginning of
Game of Thrones partly because I had these books out there but at
a certain part as the show went on, I found I had less and less
influence until by the end. I really didn't even know what
Was going on. I had some of these things I
watch like everybody else and oh what kind of gave me a call and
let me know. No I meant, you know, I have I'm
very happy with absolute Dragon. It's very faithful adaptation.
Yeah, there's some changes. But I have a great relationship
with Ryan condal and Miguel chiffon tunic.
We've got a good feeling about him.
We really liked all the interviews.
He's done. He said all the right things so
far. Yeah, we're doing Ryan and In a
little while to do a later this month.
So there are as you say a number of other shows and development,
everyone has a different show, runner and writer and every
relationship there is is different.
Hmm. So we will see how all of those
involved. So, for houses, the dragon
specifically, I've got a listener submitted question for
you that I think all of us care a lot about.
I'm just going to read it cause I think they framed it in a
really good way from Curtis W Frank's.
He asked, how should we treat House of the Dragon in terms of
I would be treating it as yet another narrative competing with
mushroom and other sources. It is one possible explanation
and take on the sequence of events but not necessarily more
correct than any of the others when they are in Conflict.
It would add yet more history historiographic complexity to
the story. How do you feel about that
interpretation? Should we prioritize these
interpretations over others? When there is an outright
conflict between them? So speak to Cannon?
Okay, well that's a very eloquently put question.
Yes, I think he did a good job with that.
Thanks Chris what it it opens, you know, a very large area for
discussion and I've been asked about this by various other
interviewers in various forms and degrees past.
And I often respond with the question, for the questioner.
How many children did Scarlett? O'Hara hat?
Yep, I mean, in Margaret Mitchell's novel.
She has three and the classic MGM movie from 1939 or so she
has one Which is real. How many children should you
have? Which should you bleed?
Candy, what candy were talking to me?
Or the book? Yeah.
And of course, it's a trick question because the The real
answer is she had none because she never existed.
She's a fictional character that was made up.
So it's a story and there were two different ways that they
chose to tell the story though, the filmmakers simplified it.
They didn't want to deal with the children of her first.
Binge and they took them out and as far as I can tell very few
people have missed them. Although not a big part of the
gun with the wind fandom, who knows maybe debating it over
over there, even probably are it's there is a Gone With the
Wind fandom to probably has to be adverse over popular.
Yeah. So This is this somewhat the
same question that you know that I deal with.
I mean I wrote the books I presented the story at least for
the first five books and as we got into it Dave and Dan David
amazing faithful adaption in many ways but not 100% faithful
Doctrine. They started making changes even
as early as season one. And I remember, I had
discussions with them back in season 1 When I was more
involved in the process, when we discuss things and and like the
fact that they are removed jeyne, Poole was very girly
thing. They actually said, oh no, Jane
pool the Senate, you see the girl that's sitting next to
Sansa in the one seen in the feast Winterfell.
And yes that so that's chain pool but you never hear a name
and she's not in it but I did tell them yes but there's the
butterfly effect as I called it. Going driving from the famous
red grape, adverse story of Sound of Thunder.
You know, you crush a butterfly in the Jurassic and suddenly you
change the old human history from that point, forward
unintentionally a little change. In a long narrative can have big
changes for the wrong and I've Gone With the Wind didn't have
to worry about that because those two children that they
removed, never had any impact on the story.
And Margaret Mitchell, didn't go on to write six more novels.
In which the children grew up and became the leader of the Ku
Klux Klan. Whatever the hell he might have
done with them to two boys and I think they were both boys deal.
Rhett's daughter with the girl so she didn't have to deal with
the butterfly effect there. But you know, when we remove
jeyne Poole from season 1, then you don't have Jane pool
available for to be. Fake Arya as happens in the
book. So what do you do then are in
the butterfly effect? As has done that, I think you're
familiar with the expanse. I think one of the best
adaptations would be an example would be the expanse TV show
where they have the writers in the writers room.
And I remember I was reading the books as the show aired and
there were some things that happened in season 1 or was
like, that's not in the books. And then I got to book five and
they were adapting things in all the way there, and I think they
really really show. And how much having the author
there to be like, actually, this is going to be important in a
book. I haven't even published yet.
So like maybe keep that in can be really important.
Yeah. And tie and Daniel well, you
know, Ty was my assistant for years and and, you know, was
part of, you know, somebody premiers and events and things
like that I went to and they even went to Morocco with me, to
watch them, shoot, Danny's, wedding, and various other
things. So he kind of due process from
the inside. And Daniel Webster New Mexico
and I was his teacher at a session of Clarion West and was
in a writers group with him and all of that.
So, I knew them pretty well. And I think they were very wise
to go into the writers room and to do that because I know from
the stories, they've told me that they encountered the, the
butterfly effect to, it would be in the writers room and then the
show Runners, who was not them initially would say, oh, we're
going to remove this person. And you know Tire Daniel say
what we could do that but then when you get to season 4 is
going to be problem because you took that other things so yeah
butterfly if I can have that but getting back to the whole issue
Cannon. Hmm.
The butterfly effect of section Cannon but there's also
sometimes deliberate changes in a show where the show runners or
the writers or Studio or network wherever it comes from, it goes
in a different direction. So what we're doing At this
point, in the history of A Song of Ice and Fire Game of Thrones
Westeros with everyone calling, we have two cannons.
We have the show Cannon, The Game of Thrones Cannon and we
have the Song of Ice and Fire Cannon, okay?
Yeah, and in the, in the book Cannon, obviously, still reading
The Winds of Winter. I'm sure you all know that and
then there's another book. Yeah.
And as I write them, and I've said this in a previous blog
post, I always knew two things. We're going to be different but
as I'm writing, is the stories are coming live in the
characters coming alive. It's taking me further and
further away from the the show. So it's going to be some very
considerable differences. In the book Cannon is going to
be quite different from the the show Cannon as we get deeper
into it. I would love to cut so many
characters, how could it not be different on that alone?
Well yes, I mean I'm still writing about Victorian, great
joy and and Ariane marked and I love, I love re on the best.
So I was, I was devastated when they caught her, I thought she
was perfect. But for HBO shocking.
Yeah. So but I was most definitely an
to and their number of other characters in there, you know,
at a and even some of the characters who are in both are
very different. I mean their version of urine,
Greyjoy is day and night for my actions of euron Greyjoy and you
know, similar similar changes. So So there are two different
tenants now because most of these shows that we're
developing, almost all of them are prequels.
I think it's a single Cannon because both all of these
prequels can lead up to Game of Thrones and beginning.
Yeah, the one that's a little trickier is the Jon Snow show
cause that's the only sequel. that being said, There's a
little tricky. I mean it keeps me, it keeps you
busy and I don't know what's going to come but we do have as
I say a number of different chosen development and everyone
has a different show runner but everyone also has me and in some
capacity. And you know some other other
people that I work with him. One of them T mikkel?
Yes. Has he changed?
She is I think Tino's for backup.
Westeros then, then I do sometimes, I wasn't, she says an
amazing breasts but and she's been a consultant on many of
these shows in development. But what I want to avoid and I
don't know how many shows are going to go, hopefully more than
one. Yeah. but as I said, we have the
book Canon and we have to show Cannon, but I don't want to
happen is that we have 17, she okay.
Yeah, yeah. Every, every different
showrunner besides that they can in different direction and
nothing makes any sense because there's no consistent set that
connective tissue. Absolutely, lucasfilm has their
story group as they call it. And it's a set group of people
who are in charge of managing keeping things, relatively
consistent, who has that lucasfilm for Star Wars, It's
called The Story group. And I think it's a really, it
doesn't seem to have Necessarily worked out the best for them.
I don't know. But in general they're trying
some inconsistency this thick and they have they have fun
better than the show. Yeah they've got some good Star
Wars books out there that are but they're trying to have a
consistent cohesive universe as it were yes they're also been
one of Ruthless with that and they abolish the expanded
universe and service. Yeah they well they did it but
only so that they could add it back in.
There are things from the original expanded universe that
they're adding Back in like there they added thrawn back in
for example, so they are they kind of just wiped the state
slate clean. As it was already, it wasn't
What the fans have to keep in mind and I hate to say this
because I don't want to sound like I'm attacking offense.
I look the Phantom a fan, myself have been a huge franchise, but
we're making this shit up. There is no real, you know, if I
go back and I read his novel about the World War 2 or
something like that, I'll be expected to get it tight.
And history is what it is but here, whether it's Harry Potter
or Star Wars or Star Trek or loaded Rings or my stuff when
making this stuff up, and then someone comes along and they
want to change something or make it up differently.
And usually if you're somebody like me, you don't like that.
You like the way you did it, you did that way for a reason, but
it is the way the process works and especially when you're being
adapted or when you're, you know, I think the word Canon and
I haven't looked this up, I maybe Completely wrong, but I
think the word can and actually derived out of Sherlock Holmes
fandoms The the Baker Street Irregulars and all that you're
Sherlock Holmes, became one of the most popular characters in
the world, not only in Britain, but all around the world he was
he was one of point. I remember at At least, back in
the 60s and 70s is probably different by now, but I remember
reading an article that said in every country in the world,
there are three characters that everybody knows Tarzan,
Sherlock, Holmes, and Superman. Now today it did, that might be
different. Yeah.
But in Sherlock Holmes was huge and a lot of people started
writing, you know, later when their own Sherlock, Holmes,
stories. And And pastiches, you know,
when home stories were stolen the copyright and Arthur Conan
Doyle was still alive, they had to disguise them, you know, you
can. Like I think it was August
derleth, wrote a series of stories about a Consulting
detective in England, called solar ponds and he was trulock
homes for one by has a different name.
You can read digital solar pond story.
If there's But the point is the biggest street Irregulars, which
I think was the big group for homes things.
I know none of that stuff actually happened.
There show a lot. None of these stories by later
people. The cannon.
And that's where I think think. The first ones is only the stuff
written by Arthur Conan Doyle himself.
That is the Canon of his hand. Everything else is just you know
Fannin semi Cannon Fannin headcanons Is a lot of variance,
I think it will get a little hung up on Canon just, you know,
enjoy the series. So you do when it, it's one of
these things that, you know, how do you define the word to find
the word, I'll tell you. What's kind of, you know, you
mean you can't say? Yeah, no, probably don't have
ever had three children because, you know, sheep, so I guess if
I'm going to re-ask the question and the question would be, are
some of the interpretations in House of the Dragon, the true
telling or I'm not some Would you really playing that in?
Yeah, one fire was that guy was playing with the history with
actual history and writing. This is a fake history book and
I had a lot of fun with that and I know some readers didn't like
it, they wanted a traditional model of our listeners, loved
it. I'm sorry.
I really went out of my way when that book was coming out to say
because I didn't want anyone to buy it and be disappointed
because it wasn't like the others they contain.
This is not a Inaudible this is not a novel.
I even went on my website, when like the Yuba nomination of made
do not nominate this for better, you know, if you like it, I
wouldn't mind nominated for best related work, which I thought
was a category fit in, maybe it actually didn't fit in that
category. I don't know.
You better. I'd be a little obscure but it
was not a traditional novel. It was a I called it fake
history at first and then stolen my readers said, they hated that
terms sort of quality imaginary history but it is, it is it is a
pseudo history of sorts written by an in World character, long,
long time ago, before I even dreamed of Game of Thrones or
any of the books, I was writing my, what would have been my
fifth novel if it had been published which was a set in,
1890s New York Historical, far novel Journey are a great era of
yellow journalism and I had a, you know, killer was on the
loose and Had three reporters from rival newspapers, chasing
him. The the Newark Journal, which
was published by William Randolph, Hearst the New York
Herald, which is published by James Gordon Bennett jr.
And the New York World which is published by Joseph, Pulitzer
had a lot of fun with that. I worked two hundred pages of
it, but that's another long story.
Everyone, anyone ever could never could sell it, but I'm
such as he still have it just sitting in the archives.
Yeah, actually, just published in a did not repay fragment was
published quartet that I did years ago.
When I finish one or two Watchmen, the point of the story
is Pulitzer. Pulitzer's newspaper.
The newer world was very successful and he built a
building for it on Publishers Row in New York City, where a
lot of newspapers were unlike the same block and he built this
building. We would had a golden dome on
the top and at the time it was built.
It was the tallest building in the world.
First the tallest building in New York City and I was building
in the world. It was kind of funny.
It was built right next to the headquarters of the New York
Sun. Which was a paper edited by
Gaming, Charles Dana who was a kind of a margin and didn't like
Pulitzer much and so they had a rivalry but the world was much
bigger than the Sun so said Bell Pulitzer can spit down on the
side but anyway, I'm researching.
Researching book and this is the tallest building we're in now
doesn't exist anymore. Many years later.
I was knocked down to build an approach for the Brooklyn
Bridge. Hmm.
And I'm reading well how many stories that have and I'm
reading these theories or so. It had remember numbers had 15
stories, and wait a minute. This other book 14, 14, 15, and
then I encounter one, what had 20 stories, what what, it's not
famous building in the world of time, and they can't even find a
reputable source as to how many floors it had.
And this is only like 1880s Bambi's 200, this is not 2000
years ago and that really Depressed on me.
Hmm, that history is it? I love history but it's so
unreliable to know what actually happened.
I mean history is what I love about history is its little
stories is full of great stories and you can take them and change
them around and use them to reel Grist for the mill.
But there's a lot of doubt about some of the best stories.
They may have been invented later by singers, or
storytellers or some Rien who wanted to make a point or, you
know, color it one way or the other and the more you read
about history, more inconsistencies you had so I
thought it would be fun. To do that and Fire and Blood.
So when I'm I'm relating, what happened here.
You know and I'm thinking about what can happen.
Well I yeah, I hope this would be great.
This would be really outrageous that would be and the has
probably to operate just well it's probably what the more
realistic version of it. Oh wait a minute, just this
version makes Fred de villain and build a hero and this
version makes you feel the villain and Fred to here.
And then at some point, you hit me.
Why don't I give full versions because his regrets are, I'll
give all versions and it'll be fun for me.
I can put in all the really outlandish.
Girlish thing that way mushroom sees it, but I can also put in
the things that are probably more resources.
Yeah. So and that works fine for those
who like that thing, although some don't, but if I was writing
it as a novel with, I've been writing this and in the form of
the books in this, Small price of fire like Winds of Winter,
which I'm writing now, I mean, when I get to a chapter Winds of
Winter and I know something's going to happen.
Well, I how does it happen? One of the things I think I did,
I could do it this way, I could do that way.
I have to make up my mind and fired.
What? I do not have to be what Ryan
and Miguel when they're adapting it, they largely had to make up
their mind. We did have some intricate way
back in the beginning. Way Way Back in the beginning,
actually. They were previous writers on it
before Ryan. But there was some interesting
discussions about how we could present the material in Fire and
Blood and, you know, you could do it the rashomon way if you
know that reference. Yeah, absolutely sent multiple
versions of the same story. We could also have done a frame
device where we could have included archmaester gilbane and
just like in, I Claudius one of my favorite TV shows, yeah,
every episode is frame by Claudius, writing his history
and then you flashback to what he wrote but we could have had
archmaester Guild Dane with all of his primary sources doddering
around. Well, I'm doing and oh no, but
just another version and and you could have done that, but that
would have been. It would have been fun but
sadly, nobody really wants to do the frames for me.
Anymore, with Claudius last duel did it?
I suppose, kind of recently a little bit of thing I did that
was had I was an interesting Um, pick on that.
I like that. I'm not sure the world did do it
didn't do that. Well, obviously it's covid-19
you gotta, you know, but it didn't do stupid.
So you talked at you're talking about how, you know, working on
Fire and Blood is history and it's very different to write one
thing that we like to highlight in our show something called
parallel lives, which is the idea that there are parallels in
your history's to current characters.
Do you have, you got you something?
From Flipkart. Yes.
Yeah, we observed It In A Song of Ice and Fire and Blood that
it allows you to maybe play with plot lines arcs for the
characters in the main series. You do that?
Consciously know. I don't don't I don't bitch.
Have consciously a test, maybe it shouldn't similarities or
inevitable? Yes, that's for sure.
If anything, I try to Veer away from that because I don't want
to feel like I'm repeating myself, mmm, history, just
naturally repeats itself so well, yes, there are certain
resonances in history and there are certain universals about
Humanity. You know, people competing for
power, people competing for love lost.
Yeah. All of these, all of these
things, some of the things that sometimes and people like that's
a stereotype or that's Alicia and like, that's because it's
true to The Human Experience. It's just true.
Oof person in all the with a lot of power being paranoid.
That's a yeah. But that's your hands a lot.
Yeah. That also applies a lot to
regular to real world, history, I suppose or 22 homages.
What about when you're writing in a mosque?
For example, one of my favorites is you've included in the
nightfort, seen with brand there, seems to be a lot of
homages to Tolkien in the mines of Moria and seeing, which I
love a lot. Is that also some that you aim
to do Batters, that also kind of accidental or maybe you have
some thoughts on your process there, why?
I love token and actually to - Maury is one of my favorite
favorite sections of Fellowship of rain.
Since and that's that's my favorite of the trilogy
Fellowship. Not that, I don't love them all,
but I don't think I was consciously trying to do that
but then again, you don't know. I mean, you read these things
and me Lodge sometimes in the Of your brain but sometimes in
weird corners of your brain where they pop up at some point.
I did want to, you know, make the knife sort of sinister space
with its own Legends, it was very old, it's very big
casserole crumbling and I wanted to give it that change that so
many things have have gone here. Hmm.
Now which are true and which are not true.
I mean, I always tend to look at not only other fantasy books and
history, but I guess the real world here.
I mean, we have these get me in trouble here for what I'm about
to say. But we have these legends that
some people believe are literally true in our religion.
I mean, you know, we talked about a the Garden of Eden.
Was there ever actually a Garden of Eden was there ahead of and
Eve or the flood Noah? And the flood?
That's a good one. I mean, that's a great story.
God was pissed off. He made it rain for 40 days and
40 nights. The entire world was flooded and
everybody died. Except This guy, Noah built a
big boat, and he got two of every animal on earth.
I don't know how to kangaroos. Got it difficult for you to the
Middle East. But they, but they did even the
mosquitoes, even the mosquitoes have two of everything and it's
a perfect start. Ricky Gervais has a very funny
bit where he makes fun of it in one of his thing.
What it's a story. It's a, it's a colorful story.
And, of course, there have been some archaeologists and recent
years, we have said, well, it could be that, you know at a
certain place in 2000 BC, the Tigris and the Euphrates flooded
and the land between them would not the entire world but the
Tigris and the Euphrates and then there was a flood and maybe
archaeology so you think sometimes have a source but It's
not the same as the story to story is bigger and more
colorful as stories tend to be. I mean, if I'm picking on
something for history to adapt to it, as I've often said in
interviews, I turn it up to 11, turn it up to 102, make it
smaller. I'm gonna do a story and it will
beat, you know, kind of just like that.
Perseids Bruno, I'll make a small room dollar.
No, have to make it bigger and cooler of one's just just read
the orders of the Roses, or the Anarchy, or any of the many of
these things. Do you have any authors or
sources that you've read that were with nonfiction account to
those? I'm the you think you
recommended. Oh, there's a lot of cherry tape
him in many years ago in your blog and I've read everything
She Wrote. Get entry wrote a great book
about the Anarchy. Yeah.
When Christ Christ and the Saints slept was beautiful.
Stephen and Matilda has terrific book.
Another author had a lot of influence was Thomas because
stain now he was a very popular watering Eleanor costain house
costain after a reference on her face, kind of slipped in there
would be at this point. I've lost track.
Uh-huh. But he was a very popular
historical fiction writer of the 50s, maybe even the 40s.
Hmm. And mostly he wrote novels some
of which were made into movies. The I think it was the Silver
Chalice was based on one of his books rest and There were a
couple others to I'm doing, but he also wrote a modern fiction
history of the plantagenet and four volumes history to
plantagenet from where the plantagenet is originated and
how they became the kings of mailing and and it's a
generational thing. So it's quite like Fire and
Blood, you know, you know, there's this, you know, he's
writing about Henry the second and then there is a second dies
and you get Richard and Richard Dies and get John and, you know,
generation after Generation all the way to the wars of the
Roses, which was the ultimate end of the plantagenet dynasty,
he doesn't go on to tutors and it was really readable.
It's full of great stories stories and how good it is to
see history. I don't know, probably not great
history, but a great beat. Hmm.
And I don't have to worry since I'm not a professional
historian. I'm writing fantasy about
getting the history wrong. Or something like that.
And yeah, I just have to worry about telling a great story and
history is full of great stories that not to say that someone
can't be improved and media writer.
Life thing turned up to 111. Yeah.
What about the series? The accursed Kings.
That's an insane. So yes, that definitely that was
Maurice. Druon French writer.
That's a very, very serious French writer in most regards.
He was Made part of the French Academy which you know garbage
the French language against link incursions from English and
other things didn't leave that, but the decrease of Kings was
sort of his his popular series of books that they are.
They were also great to. It's about the person to
Templars and the fall of Philip, the fair and his three sons, how
the dynasty Vision Dynasty ended.
And the have had the vowel came in and 100 years were so it's
again, great characters, great story, he swaps poisonings, all
that good stuff. Yes.
What do you have next here? I see you.
That's actually asked about radio cereals.
Oh, yeah, we are wasn't writing cereals when you were younger.
Is that a, that that's a thing for you?
You know what? I've heard a few of them but not
a lot. No whistle.
I was a little too young for that radio was largely over.
Yeah. By the time I was a kid and had
a radio, I did listen to like sometimes late at night, I would
listen to radio talk shows. Hmm, it was one guy in.
I was in one in New Jersey Long, John Nebel had this show on it.
We came on it, like, midnight or something, so I have listened to
it in bed and he frequently had science fiction writers on
Frederik, Pohl Lester Del Rey, they, some of the other writers
Theodore sturgeon, I think we're guests on it shows and they
discuss outlandish things in the middle of the night, but I like
that show. But now yeah, over the years a
few people have made an effort to bring back radio drama.
Yeah. But I don't think any of his
efforts have ever really succeeded on radio.
I think that there's something back in podcasts and audio.
Audiobook form is a lot more versions that have Have sound
effects and voice actors in my that's part of why we ask
because we thought that maybe one day, that would be something
that could be done with the Song of Ice and Fire because it would
be audio version. That's unabridged.
But it would add some data sounds and we do anything
audiobooks. Yeah.
Right. But with unfortunately, the
Roy's Batista's passing wouldn't be wouldn't be a complete
cohesive thing. But right was amazing.
The Beast and think about Roy was He was an actor, he whom and
there are a lot of audio books out there.
And there are people who make their entire career as reading
audiobooks. And some of them are really,
really good but they are readers.
Yeah, their readers, Roy came into it.
Not reading the book by acting the bookends, giving every
character his own voice. And, you know, it's a little
strange at times because, of course, I can easily write.
So and so said, This in a dornish accent.
Well, there's no Jordan shefte so we write would have to make
it up as they. Well, I love that will make that
a Spanish accent or something. I'll get back this guy.
Speak Welsh a Nolan. Ryan was a master of accents and
all that what he was doing when he started that but he was as
old as I am. Now when he started doing that
and so he's doing women, he's doing eight-year-old, boys.
It's a, it's a challenge but he did her amazing job for it, he
really did. I've listened to his audio books
if they were taped I would have worn them out.
Yeah, he is phenomenal. I've lost a lot of other out of
your books and there's just the voice acting is acting aspect is
I've never run into anyone who's done in like there's nobody
quite like what we have. Sounded good audio book readers
to Harry Lloyd, Rich. Tom and Ian Glenn.
You know, some of the dunk and egg stories and then Fire and
Blood and stuff. So yeah, we've had some good
readers. I would, I would love it if you
could get to readers. I just I really think The series
that there's so many characters I think having a woman and a
man's voice would do so much for my enjoyment because it's hard
to hear a man. Do a child's voice, you know,
listen to the wildcards audiobooks.
No, I haven't, they do you do that for that?
I'll have enough to check that out.
Wait we have yes make sense. There are you know there are
many well quite books but I think only eight of them.
Maybe nine of them exist on audio books.
Down the first two, the first two were done.
For one company. Brilliance I think and they were
done with a reader. So one guy reads but if you know
the wild-card books if you read them, their Mosaic novel.
Yeah. Are many different Viewpoint
characters intercutting either a separate stories or sometimes
fully into cut in the same narrative.
So when we get to the third book I believe it was we for
complicated reasons. I won't get into, we switch to a
different company and we wound up with random house audio and I
was able to Suede them to have a different reader for each.
Sorry, very cool. Very cool.
Now, there's still issues there because even though let us say
the story, the protagonist for maybe Waterlily say.
And so we got four Waterlily. We got a woman, we got my friend
Lena Esco who's been in swat and, you know, some other things
and she read what a little is story.
But in what a little story, there are other characters
appear. So, you, she was still reading
and finding there were scenes where, you know, Hiram,
Worcester peers, or yo, men or some of the other people and,
and that's true in everything. But we did have a separate
reader for, for each character. I think, from volume 3 up to,
like Volume 8 or so. And then, for complex reasons we
stopped, but we're about to resume again.
I think that's exciting. We will, we will have more of
those. Yeah.
Hmm. But if you get too many readers
then you get into the issue. Well, is this a, you know,
there's legal issues? I mean is this a Is this an
audiobook or is this a radio? Yeah, ization.
And I have the right to do an audio book.
I don't have to right to do a radio authorization, you know,
that those kind of complex, absolute things, come up here
and make a lot of sense. I wouldn't have thought about
the difference in how its defined and how that affects
your rights. But of course it would and if
you start adding sound effects or anything like that then then
you're right over into the agent radio and so that HBO's like
Hello this Is the little bit too close to Game of Thrones
interesting. It's interesting to.
I mean I'm just speculating here.
I don't want to seem like an expert but I know the rings of
Power is coming out that came thing.
Yeah but there's also something called the right of the door
here. Mm that's coming out.
Yeah that is done by tirely different people.
It doesn't get all the right side and it's a what, it's an
animated, a little audio. I'm not clear on Yeah I believe
so. Yeah that's that's a strange
situation the way those rights got portioned out.
Its yeah not typical but poke him with probably the greatest
fantasists long time but He was an innocent babe in the woods at
dealing with Hollywood and these things.
I mean, if you look at the original animated things long
before, Peter Jackson he sold the first two books too.
Was, it was Ralph bakshi. I think we did Fellowship in a
ring and the two towers but it was hosted have been error or
somebody like that. It did what it was.
Then the did the third one, the third one, or they also did The
Hobbit. So The Hobbit and The Return of
the King or done by one animated, and the first two are
done by a different one. How did he manage to generate
those in the hell was representing?
And So it seems a different world back then.
Yeah we should maybe ask about games.
Now, there are a lot of games Based On A Song of Ice and Fire
many, many games, there's both official ones and unofficial
ones. And I would, we move at The
Unofficial ones. Are we were curious.
If you had heard about these unofficial ones or not, we were
curious as well, if any of them were particularly interesting
for you to see realized there's, you know, there's the board
game, the card game, the tabletop game.
Mmmmm the video games are so many of those artificial their
things, right? Those are.
All right, you know, Dark Sword, which works with see Mo n you
doing the yeah, the the Miniatures of knowing you see I
have some of the Miniatures weeks to work for the community
more and they're doing the tabletop Miniatures game and all
that, but then I had Fantasy Flight was doing a card game and
still are and various people have done before.
Games that actually became you know somewhat of an issue way
back when you know I mean the books the first book came out in
1996 and the second book came out in 1999 and third book came
out in 2000 and you know by that time the books were very
popular. Each one with more popular than
others. I was hitting the best selling
list. So I had various people
approaching me with offers for subsidiary rights as they were
gold. And I like games.
I love Miniatures that I had here was thrilling, you can see
it. My collection here will around.
Yeah, we sure can when nights and nutrition and you know, my
agent got involved and we negotiated deals.
And we assign some of these replicas swords with chalak
incorporated, or liberal area of Steel as they call themselves
Dark Sword with the miniatures. The coins which are done by.
Yeah childish. We love that.
I made all these these deals and a couple others besides, I won't
go into any in it. Well, you go forward to like
now, 2007-2008. I've turned down like half a
dozen people who wanted to make movies to these right?
And David, meet David and Dan on legendary lunch at the poem.
Los Angeles. It turns into dinner, walking
for hours. And I said, okay.
You seem good guys to work with here.
Go ahead and see if you can sell it to HBO.
I was out of TV. But then for so long, I mean I
guess I've been very active in TV, 10 years roughly up to the
mid 90s, but, you know, this was like 2007, there's a 12 years
I've been largely out of TV, they weren't going to let me
run, the show will be the show runner or even do that.
It was like, your guy working TV back in the Stone Age but Dave
and Dan were hot writer and I thought HBO was H4.
We all agreed on that. So they sold at HBO, but then we
start to try to negotiate the deal with HBO.
And my agents took charge you no money, rise title.
All that stuff also, she answer always fine and all that went
fine but suddenly we hit a bump on the subsidiary rights and if
you're saying well, we get all the subsidiary rights and I said
well I can't give you all the subsidiary rights because I have
these like 8 contracts here. I had just got has miniature
rights And this guy has replica sword, writes, and this company
has card games. They can't give you those
because that word and actually kind of puzzled by that fit.
Their legal department saying, no, wait, wait, wait, you can,
we always get on subsidiary, we have this interesting Sopranos,
we have all the subsidiary rights to all of our shows, you
know. And I said, stand that but I
can't give you right to that. I no longer own because I've
sold These other people, it's just so we finally got that
through them and we got the deal that cut out those rights.
Although it does have, you know, Clauses in that that only so
long as those Things are active, do they keep the rights?
If Valyrian steel, for example ever stops making sense words.
After certain point, those rights good HBO nation and the
Valyrian steel guy is actually pretty pretty smart because the
first thing he did was make a deal with HBO.
That's why there are two versions and you can see them
around the house, you know, there's a huge cannon, you know,
he makes the show Sword and the bookstore.
I think you're sitting in front of the book version of needle.
Oh, right there. And the show version of needle
is somewhat different. So, let's see, we have some
listener, submitted questions, we would like to get into some
personal questions when here, maybe this is my be very
quickly. Yeah, quick question, would you
say that folks in your world of Song of Ice and Fire.
Two individuals, have or believe in the soul with the concept of
it. Or would you say that it
actually exists there? Or is that too dramatic?
But yes, I mean, I don't think I've ever used that word.
You Flex shade or go, Shane Shadows ghosts, but I think it
depends on what religion you follow.
A number of them, certainly believe in some sort of
afterlife, you know, the worship of the old gods.
Believe that. Give me your spirit goes.
To, you know, the weirwood trees or if your war of you get this
the second life, where you get to live as a whole, or wolf, or
bear or something, but eventually all the souls, if you
will, or the spirits, go to the same place, but the ironborn,
you know, won't think you're having a big party which is
around 11 to see, you know, and his sort of wet Valhalla and you
know, the faith of the seven believes in.
Seven Hills and seven heavens and all of that stuff.
So, there is some belief in the in the afterlife.
Yeah. But as more and more religions
come into the world is like, spend it, you probably see more
and more different. So let's ask about a couple
questions about valyrians that I have here.
Did valyrians from non Dragon, ride and writing families,
practice incest as well and did valyrians other than targaryens
have It dreams, if you can answer either of those.
No, I don't think I particularly would.
I mean I haven't really thought about that.
That's are not served by right to change my mind but no, I
don't think it was a specific reason for the, for the incest,
which was to, you know, I mean obviously they don't have, these
are medieval people and ancient people.
They don't know about DNA or jeans or any of that stuff,
what? They have some rough concept of
it in which they attribute to the blood.
Well, this guy had blue eyes Tires and his children and blue
eyes but if he marries someone with brown eyes from on our kids
have brown eyes - that they have some think so yeah, we can
control dragons. We don't want to lose that
ability. Not everybody can do that.
So we better, we better keep it in them in the family so to
speak or at least with the other bragging reigning families.
Hmm, now, there was I haven't gone much into it but There was
another very powerful group in Valerio who were not necessarily
the Dragon Riders. Hmm.
And those were the people who practiced blood magic.
Hmm. And which, you know, just some
overlap in the Venn diagram with the Dragon Riders but not
necessarily complete overlap. And then there were just the
regular people. There were a lot of slaves
because the slave Society, there were a lot of poor people.
I think of ancient Rome Or something like that.
Yeah, I don't know that they would have any reason to
practice incest, okay. But you said with the, but the
people who work blood magic, they wouldn't necessarily have
to, you know, they lost their with their pets on how they find
their magic. Okay.
What about the felt? And I know here, I'm an outlier,
because I think most of fantasy writers contemporary Federal
program disagree with me, but I never wanted to Devise a magic
system, there's quality, but a fantasy writers, you know, very
proud of their magic systems. They divide 9 magic and sorcery
is, it's not part of the natural world.
It's supernatural. It's unnatural, it's dangerous.
And, and if you If you make it so systematic that, okay, if you
take the eyes of a newt and the balls of a bat and the blood of
a virgin and mix them together, you'll get the potion, just then
you've just, you've taken a magic out of magic and you've
made it science, but you've made it fake science science.
It doesn't really work and I Not interested in that.
I mean I think you look at the history of magic in the real
world magic and for most of human history people believe
that they it was magic to was sorcery.
They believed they were dragons, they believed in witches.
What did their magic actually? Work food mr.
Magic actually work than they would have ruled the world,
right? Yeah.
Sometimes, you know, if something got a bad case of
boiled, Blame the old woman down there down the road that gave
you the boils for you didn't like her so and then if you
could convince people, they might hanger or set on fire but
she couldn't get boils to everyone.
Or it was magic was unreliable, it was dangerous and and I think
that's also true dragons and what magic and everything kind
of magical sorcery spells on my world.
It's not, it's not easy. You're invoking things.
Maybe you shouldn't mess with their what is in some accidents.
Presumably and yes. And there have been sample of
whom the whole area. There's a little less accidental
and a little more deliberate on the faceless men's part, but we
won't make you say anything on the record but there are
theories about it not necessarily, you know, Theory.
There are three of everything you've written in Honduras.
Like people arguing about it and having theories about it.
Yeah. But his hand all of that stuff.
Yes. Yeah we wanted to tell you some
of the like fandom adjacent terms like we could you know
you've dumped some of them in world.
Like for example you created the Red Wedding and cold it such in
the world. But then fans came up with the
term, the purple wedding for Joffrey's wedding or the pink
letter for the pink letter, which you probably know what
we're referring to. Yes, I do.
Those terms do not appear in the book.
Yeah, they don't. So I think the golden wedding
but yeah, that was a good one there.
And there's some other fun ones. Like people I hate when people
use the term of fag on because it's very spoilery and not
necessarily accurate. I just call him young Griff but
that is a term that people use, okay, have you heard that term
before facing? And it does indicate that
they've already made you made their mind?
Yeah, I'm gonna stay taken serious inside about this, but
I'll just call me young Griff because lots of people have not
gotten to that point in the series yet.
So let's let them. Yeah.
Arm and that's a huge, you know, getting back to your question 10
and that's a huge kind of sketchy.
Yeah, that's not exist in in the doesn't Butterfly Effect
coordinate TV. Show eating is in a big way in
the books but yeah so I wanted to talk about a couple personal
things as As well. You have told us in the past and
we were at was very random. We were at a lunch with you and
you mentioned cat that you had named Asha and how she was a
killer. And I just enjoying to know ever
since what are the other names of your pets?
I know it's a silly question but I would like to know everyone
would like to say but yeah, sure is gone.
Oh but she was a great kid. But yeah, I don't have many cats
named from my books. We've had a few hundred years.
We had it at a certain period, my wife Paris and I Harris is of
Irish descent among other things.
And she likes Irish history and not and I'm also partly Irish
but not not quite as much as she was, but at a certain point, you
know, I mentioned I Claudius today.
Yeah, I loved. So we had made it.
Cat named Augustus and we had a cat named Caligula which of
course is Roman from Little Boots.
Harrison Hungarian is not a big fan as room siren.
Refused to Coldplay dealership, golden boots, but Augustus and
Caligula. Sadly are both bone.
Although Sid assistant who's been coming down without any
inspiration. For me, completely
independently. She has a cat named Caligula,
had a cat named Claudius. And that was where I was going.
I want to name our next step 40s.
I wanted to name a cat. Messalina.
Are his wife? Wendy?
Harris? You know, threw down the
gauntlet and no, no, you've had your Romans now, it's my turn to
name it catch ha ha ha. We had some Irish catch their.
I still have one branya named after the famous female pirate
of the Irish sea. We had a couple Irish name, Cat
still, very cool. I've got a question about Paris
specific. We at a convention years ago,
you told a story about your first.
Real meeting with Paris in the sauna.
Yes. Yeah in 1975 public on and thing
that got me is that Paris had a very funny clip that I have not
been able to remember. I have not been able to find
online. What would what if Paris say
when she saw you in that woman's son?
Do you remember? I do, chi, chi.
Did I not sure your you were young creatures but do you know
who WC Fields has the same? Anything?
In particular waves. Hmm, she came in and she did it
WC Fields voice when she said, you know, the pros in science
fiction fandom Pros as the name for professional writers are
conventions, their fans and grows and they were not just me
in this one up. But there were a number of other
people including Joe Haldeman, I think and a few others, and as
she came in and saw us and said naked Pros, her best w.c.
Fields. Thank you.
Girls. And driving me.
Crazy for years I've been like a had.
This really clever things she said and I could remember, thank
you. I think I found the story but
not that, I don't know. Ted.
Now this was 1975 and I personally have told that story.
We are in the meantime so many years but I'm getting, you know,
I mean, centuries venomous changing and there's all this,
you know, I think if that happened today we would do, they
would call the police, we can tell you Dan from conventions
and he's got to go to a lot of people fooling around and
conventions. They were having a convention.
I went to, the fans, would go skinny-dipping in the hotel and
yeah, Sid wants to go back to those days, right?
Happy to tell you that there's definitely still wild convention
times. We go to some small conventions
that are like 300 people where if that is alive and well, we go
to one called Ice and Fire con that is dedicated to your
series. It's only 300 people and there's
been a lot of love matches there.
There's like a few marriages that have been made there if you
hookups, but, yeah. So it was fun just this last
year. They did only no skinny dipping
in the hotel pool. Okay.
I won't say that on the record. There is a hotel pool.
That's days that I suppose. Yeah, what happens, a nice park
on stage, but I'm gonna start quick anecdote about some good
happened there last year. There was they host a tournament
in a melee every year where people use foam noodles, and
fun, exciting and disaster with and the swords are plastic.
It's highly entertaining, but at the end of it, fan duel to
another fan like a quick mail, a dual call them out, he won, he
declared, he was naming a queen of love and beauty and proceeded
to. Proposed to this woman and her
parents were hiding behind. And she appeared, they all
appeared and it was a really wonderful moment.
She of course she said, yes, it was great.
And that's why she's an artist. That's that's his gone fully
professional mostly just great art in your world.
So I right. I have to tell a story there
too. I don't know.
I hope these people aren't still in the in the fantasy hurt
anyone's feelings. But it really did this probably
like, in 2002-2003 Able 2001, I think the Brotherhood without
banners. Yeah, first started having
Portage 2001. This is a couple of years later
but still early in the history and one of the fans came up me
what I copied latest book and said he wanted to propose to
this girl in the group. So he wanted me to write in a
book instead of just, you know, best wishes or keep your shirt
or something. He wanted to write, you know.
I don't remember what her name was, you know.
Dear and nymeria. Yeah.
Will you marry aegon? I'm yeah, my name's but it
wasn't that it was busy and Fred or something.
Yeah, he wanted me to write. You marry me and I can't write.
Will you marry me and give me a call?
If you think that I'm perfect, I'm not proposing to her, but if
you want I will write, you know, dear I'm area.
We marry a God or something like that.
Oh okay, yeah, so I wrote that in the book and then there's a
big party that is, you know, we will Credit in the home, sweet
and and he gave her the book and she opened it and sad to say, He
did not catch up response. He won't.
Are you out of your fucking mind.
Hilarious. So I'm not aspirin too beat up
to be an asshole to find out who it was like watching a football
game. And somebody proposes in front
of 70,000 fans where you married, Joe, what happens when
she says know if he's so dramatic.
As that guy ever went out And but for what happened to that is
it still sitting by herself. That was a hard cover said, is
looking at a sternly? I think we have that.
Yeah. And the show ended.
I want to say one more thing before we eat.
What I want to say. Thank you to.
I promised some other friends that I would mention that also,
but ice and fire con they've done to musicals based on your
series 1, Westeros, and American Musical which Which is based on
Hamilton. And one is called Queens, which
is based on. I don't know if you've heard of
six, the musical, it's about The Six Wives of Henry the eighth.
And so, if you would enjoy that musical for one, but I just
wanted to mention that you have inspired people to song a whole
Home. Music music Musical.
Dance on YouTube as well. Yeah, but yeah, it's a full and
it's they're adapting. A Song of Ice and Fire, not Game
of Thrones very deliberately. And so yeah, that exists as a
loving tribute to your works. And thank you so much for
family. I didn't know about this
convention. Uh I feel is going to do an
official from yeah. Are doing 1 and December.
We are probably going to be going but yeah, they're all
there's two fans Dimensions based on your works.
There's ice and fire con, which is small, 300-person and tight
and cons. And I said, three because
there's also con of Thrones, which is obviously dedicated to
HBO's Game of Thrones, I'm more specifically.
So, yeah. Yeah.
You've you've birthed a lot of stuff.
A lot of fans on he just yeah. Yeah, you know full-size.
Yeah, thank you Sid. Well, let's just try and thank
you guys. Thank you.
Really