Lord creegan start 11, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the
north, The Wolf of the north. He was called until he was
called The Old Man of the north he loomed as Eternal as the wall
and Winterfell at least compared to the life span of the usual
Stark, Lord or person and beyond that.
He has a claim to be the most important.
The mall given that long lifespan in the massive impact
he had on the history of Westeros.
Yeah, us not just in the north, but across the Seven Kingdoms,
due to his role in the dance of the Dragons.
But that part he played as major as it was in the dance came when
he was only about 22 or 23 years old and we just told you, he
lived long enough to get a second nickname referring to his
age. So he outlived the young king,
he helped get settled. Then the Our Gary and king and
the next, probably the next after that, some of it gets a
little hazy towards the end as we get into the periods.
Where all eyes were on the south or where the histories have not
yet been revealed in great detail to us.
As always though even with partial information there's an
awful lot. We know a lot more we can infer
and a few other things we can throw in here and there like
details and, you know, jokes he married three times had 10
Children and unknown. But large number of
grandchildren saw, countless Winters and battles and
outlived. Almost all the peers of his
Youth, and many of the younger members of his own family, he's
featured in. Some major enduring historical
mysteries and pops up in some eyebrow-raising spots within the
main pages of Song of Ice and Fire.
I think if we pulled the entire book reading fandom somehow I
don't know how we would ever do that but if we could my opinion,
it'd be a favorite in the top five Starks of all time.
Category. And there are reasons.
Lots of them why people feel so strongly.
We'll get into all those reasons and more on this episode of
history of Westeros podcast. You know, I could have started
this by saying pack it up. Pack it in.
Let me free game, you'll notice I started cringing because I
knew that was coming for. I said it, she started cringing.
Yeah, because I tested it out on her this morning and she cringed
then, and I love upon which should have.
That's not a good point. Just been fi clear.
Not to open made some of you laugh, but it's so bad that Sean
isn't here today. That's how bad it is, it just
blew him, right? I doubt he's gone.
Yeah, California. Now, we knew Sean wouldn't be
here today. We picked day spoilery topic.
So there will be some spoilers in this one.
Of course, when I say spoilers. I mean spoilers for House of the
Dragon. If you've already read Fire and
Blood, then there's no spoilers at all.
So for most of you, this isn't spoilery but that warning gets
thrown in there. Just in case shout out to our
good friend Nina, check out good.
Queen a lead on Tumblr.com, I don't just check it out submit a
question, she a lot of her blog post over Sponsors to
excellently, ask question. Well, they're not always
excellent. We ask maybe she doesn't answer
those but they're good questions.
Get answered. And I imagine if you're coming
from here as a listener, to ask question, it will be a good one.
This episode was voted on by patrons.
We did put up a what episode should we do?
While Shaun's gone that bills feature, spoilers pull, and this
is what was chosen next week is the free city of cohort.
Yes, working our way, gradually through the nine.
Three cities, we've done lease. We've done.
Do we do? We only place we did Laura.
That's right. Okay.
Yeah. If the episode ends and you want
to stay immersed in history of Westeros a so small that we've
got you covered with suggestions for topics related to this one
like I said at the end also at the end is the answer to this
trivia question, what title was held by the person who told
Cersei the definition of alencar bonus if you know, their full
name Mmmmm. It's good to cover topics like
this and others before they hit television, because that will
forever change. How we see the character?
Even if we disagree with the portrayal or particularly love
it, if we even think it's they nail it, it's still going to
change. What?
We see. We're going to have picture,
whoever the actor is some of us. Well, anyway, maybe hear their
voice. It's good to have a record of
our perspective before, in other words.
So before that gets set, not that there's anything wrong with
what's coming but still I'd like to separate the two to keep our
ducks in a row before we really dig deep.
I think, you know, you want to separate those cannons.
Do not confuse them. It's really about not being
confused and eating it straight. It isn't about, you know, one's
bad. And the other is good.
Although, that is a valid opinion, it's just not one I
hold and to enjoy the characterization more by
appreciating the book version, through a deeper understanding.
I think, when you see this character on TV, you will
appreciate it more. If you know more about him, if
you understand the book, Character really well seeing him
on TV unless they do a really bad job is going to be more
likely enhance the experience, especially this character.
It's a scarf after all, really important ones semi-legendary
only semi-legendary because maybe not enough time has passed
for him to be fully legendary, you know, there's not a exactly
a rule book on when someone becomes a legend.
But he's only Ned's four-times-great-grandfather.
Either by counted, right? So not that far back but that
said if we had a fuller picture of creegan and we should get
more in Blood and fire and possibly talk of him and say the
she-wolves of Winterfell or elsewhere, maybe this wouldn't
be a single topic episode, I don't think or single episode
topic. I think it would take more than
one episode, but given the information we do have, it's
more than enough for. Just one you saw.
How much time we spend on Aidan after all?
And there's huge gaps and naming.
The Dragon Knights life, too. And creegan lived, a lot longer
than Amon. We don't get much in the way of
physical descriptions, except for the classic Stark, gray
eyes. That reminded septon Eustace of
a winter storm. I almost think he probably
wasn't a really big or really small guy because that might
have stood out, especially given how much he dominated people.
If he was also able to dominate them with his size or be in
spite of it, then that would be worth a mention.
So maybe he just didn't have a particularly notable Or the look
other than those eyes I suppose here is the first mention of him
in brand, seven in the Bronx. That one is John start.
When the see Raiders landed in the East, he drove them out and
built the castle at White Harbor.
His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father, but another
Rick hard. He took the neck away from the
marsh King and married, his daughter.
Be on Starks, the real thin one with the long hair and the
skinny beard. They called Him The Hungry Wolf
because he was always at War. That's a Brandon, the tall one
with the dream. He faced he was, Brandon the
ship right because he loved the sea.
His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the
sunset sea and was never seen again.
His son was Brandon the burner because he put the sunset
because he put the torch to all his father's ships in greed.
There's Roderick Stark who Juan bear Island in a wrestling match
and gave it to the Mormont. And that's torrhen Stark, the
king whom L, he was the last king of the North and the first
Lord of Winterfell. After he yielded to aegon the
Conqueror, oh, there he is. Craig and start.
He fought with Prince a man. Once and the Dragon Knight said
he'd never faced a finer swordsman, they were almost at
the end now and bran felt a sadness.
Creeping over him almost at the end.
I wonder if you can read that different way like an end to the
Sharks or just an end his own life or this is before he knows
his father has passed. So might just be foreshadowing
that Nina doesn't think it's too deep there.
It's just the end of the rows of of statues.
But you know, your mileage, may vary more to the point though.
We don't exactly know when Craig and got his nickname contain the
word old as I said, so you have enough other information to get
close enough to say he died. Roughly, 90 to 110 years before
brand was born, he lived. Least till the year 183,
probably longer than that. And brand was born in.
What is it one or two 91, so Turin.
And Craig are the only non kings that get mentioned here, by the
way. That's maybe noteworthy.
Here's the list after creegan. By the way, we've got john'll
Barth again and Brandon are looser, barf again?
Yeah, real Joss, probar lorient. I'll hang.
Those are creegan signs Rodwell. And Bear on our Brandon Sons Don
or and Willem were bear on Sons and then we'll am with the
father of Ed while he was. The father of Rick are, who is
the father of knit 104? Back to the Geocache.
It's made of y'all watch the show party down.
They have a no, you're fine. They have a character named
Josh, robar Lorien. It's a fictional movie
characters, not actually, in the show, they're just referring
this character. Ja fro bar, Lori Colonel, Joshua
from Myrtle jaw throat and his full name is Zhao fritton bar.
DeLorean. Now bar Lorien sounds like a
mash-up of Baratheon and Targaryen bar.
Lorien Targaryen like Jeff. Roe is just like Joffrey, right?
So I'm sure that we're falling out over that name.
We heard that. Good job, bro.
Party Downs a great show but We can be pretty sure bear on died
around the year to 12 because of what George teased about the
she-wolves Winterfell. Maybe it was a couple years
later but is roughly in that rain.
Not long after that or in that General one or two years around
that meaning creegan ruled roughly as long as five or six
Dark, Lord's would on average. So he's easily the longest dark
lordship. We know of at least 60 years,
possibly 70. Yeah, the longest he could have
Have lived was 292. Yeah, he did not live into the
third Century definitely died before the end of the century.
He was born a 10-8. So, the latest he could have
lived his about ninety three ninety, ninety to their kings
with stories of crazy, long rains, like Cedric's no beard
who supposedly was? Well, over 100, when his great
grandson or grandson, drove the Raiders out of the white knife.
And of course, Brandon the Builder has the About his life
for crazy, but we don't really need to compare the super
ancient ones because those stories aren't well attested.
They're more likely to have been exaggerated and if they refer to
a time where mad more magic was in play than it's not really
fair to compare it to the non-magical ones.
Yeah. Old man of the North.
When did he get that name? That's something we don't know.
So I divided the episode basically into three parts,
we've got the wolf of the North's that we're going to have
the black Ali Arrow. He's married his second wife and
perhaps the one he was married to the longest and then the old
man of the north is the last section and we don't know when
one ends and the other begins. So we're just kind of
guesstimating. It's funny thing about though.
Like what counts is old, I mean in this context, he could have
been When he was 49 he had been Lord of Winterfell already 31.
Here's which Westeros seems like a really long time.
So you can see mold just because of how long you've been in place
like Nick has been Lord forever. It feels like, but not actually
as old as you might think you might have gone gray or silver
early to with so much stress in his life.
Yeah. All that winter.
Because as we'll see here, there's a lot of, I mean,
there's a lot of burden on any Lord but Stark Lords.
In particular have the burden of And Winters.
And there were some, at least one particularly nasty winter
that he had to face. Also had to face Civil War, not
just the dance, but on his own side and well, we'll get to all
that. It's quite interesting and the
second mention of creaking is also interesting.
It's also in brand 7, but a Clash of Kings, not a Game of
Thrones, it's like creegan time. Its brand 7, here's the quote.
When the Shadows moved it looked for an instant as if the dead
were Rising as well. We oughta and Brandon Lord
Rickard Stark their father Lord Ed while his father Lord Willem
and his brother are toast. The implacable Lord honor and
Lord, Barren and Lord, Rodwell one-eyed.
Lord, John O Lord Barth Lord, Brandon and Lord Cragen who had
fought the Dragon Knight on their Stone chairs.
They sat with stone Wolves at their feet.
This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of
their bodies. This was the Dark Hall of the
Dead where the living feared To Tread they're really knows that
rhymed I know Christ are called Dead with a beard.
Tread certainly the Dead Rising B.
Sounds like foreshadowing of nothing else.
Maybe cragen's, spirit will be one of those that we see as an
aside one difference here and to the point of closer to the end.
Yeah. That's this is a little more.
What we might Expect to see at the end of the series or near
the end of the series. Is there something in the
crypts, the rising of the dead or it being used as a tunnel for
people to come through or something?
Anyway, that's not directly related to creegan though.
It would be interesting if his tomb, was one of the ones that
we see involved in some way. So, in both those quotes, we
have the mention of him fighting the Dragon Knight much in our
Dragon Knight episode. We struggled to Place.
No one knows when that happened. We have maybe a few more guesses
here in this episode and we rehash briefly, the ones that we
already made. But you know what?
We've said, many times more than twice about George r.r., Martin
telling us things twice. So he mentioned creegan fighting
the Dragon Knight in book 1 and then again in book two could be
relevant. Could be now creaking story
contains several elements that touch on Central elements from
Song of Ice and Fire. Perhaps helping us frame them,
or contextualize them, further and theorize a bit more to.
Let's go to his early life. He was born in the year 108
which is why I could guess he got no older than 92 ish because
he didn't rule in the third Century.
He had a father named Rick on a mother named Julian Glover in an
unnamed younger. Brother who died in the year
1919, which means he was at most 10 years old could have been
only four fives and like that, that Most likely pretty safely
have a strong impact on Reagan growing up.
Having lost his brother might be why he's kind of a hard-ass.
Definitely one thing will see throughout this is that doesn't
have much of a sense of humor. Very serious guy, which is
fairly common for Starks, but having lots of serious things
happen. When you're young, lots of adult
things happen is that you shouldn't have to deal with as a
child are also very prominent here for example that well
losing his brother But more than that, according to mushroom, he
had a bastard half sister named Sarah snow.
Who is probably such a big story and topic that will handle it
separately. But his childhood friend, are a
Nori eventually became as white. That's cool.
But the toughness he exudes might be calm enough for a
stark. But I kind of Wonder, you know,
if he had these he's the hill Clan in-laws you know the Nori's
are the hill tribes so it feels like maybe some influence from
the tougher side of the nor maybe that a Helps explain why
he is the way he is or was or maybe that was Nina says maybe
the other way around, maybe creegan found kinship with them
because he was already kind of like that, and that's why he
gravitated towards them. Well, both perhaps, when you
have similar like-minded, folk hard to say.
One did all the work to establish that friendship in the
first place. So I'm guessing it was a little
above his best. Friend was Lord Kerwin or
cerwyn, however you want to say it.
It was perhaps not Lord when they first met neither was
frigging Castle sermons, only a day's ride from Winterfell.
So this one makes a lot of sense just from proximity standpoint.
This is another younger Lord that I figure a lot of young
Stark, boys and girls have been friends with the boys and girls
of house curl and over the centuries.
Just making friends with people who are nearby makes sense like
people in your village, Etc. It's tempting given that
personality Ian so far to put him on the try to put him on
rather. The Ned Brandon Spectrum, which
is the talkative energetic, Wildfire Ewolf, versus the more
reserved kind of Colder, but you know, still intense, Ned
version, he's more, may be most similar to Alaric Stark who we
see through the eyes of earlier Fire and Blood when he meets
with Allison and Jerry's and Impaired Alaric the Stannis, and
I'd say that's fair. It took a pregnancy test and
it's in a lot of ways, but without the chip on his shoulder
because Dennis was second born and, you know, that it was like
the big deal. Looking up the Robert and all
that Craig and didn't really have that.
But one thing they have in common is the being an
Intimidator and liking when people stand up to them, kind of
like, he walks around intimidating, people as a test
to see, right? If anyone here can stand up to
me and And match my energy, then that's a good person or some of
them until actually like and maybe befriend, or at least
respect. Because I know I'm intimidating.
And you can stand up to me. Hey, you're your special.
I mean that's kind of how Santa's he's got that pride and
because he's got that pride and he knows he's intimidating.
You actually recognizes when people can handle his withering,
the presence. And I think Creek and has that
without probably the physicality though but status is tall.
That's easy to forget that because the TV show and all that
but But Santa's just like a thinner version of Robert
without as many muscle but still very tall and big very big God
you know very muscular just not not Robert muscular so it's
possible maybe Craig and wasn't very popular when he was young.
So I kind of feel like a lot of starks would have liked that
presents having a tough kid like that, you know, maybe something
has what's needed. A lot of starks are a lot of
rather Northern Lords might even like When this kids Lord will be
in good shape, you know someone tough-minded like that.
They may have appreciate that but who knows?
It's a big. An open question or making a few
assumptions here. Moving ahead to the dance of the
direwolf. We described it in the episode
under the dragons 52 129. So check out that for the Fuller
story. Just a quick recap here Rick on
his father passed in 121 and Rick ons, brother Bernard became
Regent because Cregan was only 13 now in Craig and turned 16
and 124 Bernards. Like I think I'm gonna keep
rolling, it doesn't relinquish it, our best guess is ambition,
there doesn't seem to be some sort of compelling.
Brett, might be a reason like Oh, the wildlings are coming.
We need to have someone an adult in charge, but even winter
doesn't seem to be excuse. Will come back to that in just a
minute. As to why I'm quite sure.
Winter wasn't a problem. Here, Cragen was still
unmarried, so he didn't have an in-law house to help him,
though. He may have already had that
connection to the Nori's. They may have already sort of
expected him to marry her or hoping for they may have already
been allies at this point, or they may have seen it as an
opportunity like, all right, well, the young Lord is being
held out of his seat. We helped him out will get
rewarded, something like that. Could happen Bernard on the
other hand was married to the car starts, his wife was
Margaret karstark so they may have thought themselves more
suited or more start more purely start, because of that Bernard
Sons may have had a special sort of Pride, being both Stark and
karstark. I don't know if that's a thing,
just something to throw it out there.
But something I believe we didn't mention in the under the
dragon episodes was the presence of at least one more Stark
Branch out there. Maybe I did mention it, but
Eventually Linares Stark will enter the story and she's a
descendant of Brandon, the boisterous, who was the second
Lord of Winterfell after the king who knelt?
So a ways back, but they still would have been around in this
time because obviously Lenora doesn't come around for quite a
while still. So what did this branch of the
family do? During this time it probably
took creegan side? Because what would they gain by
siding with Bernard, Bernard would would make them second,
fiddle, or third fiddle, or maybe eliminate them because If
he's an ambitious guy, he would be thinking like an ambitious
guy does, which is expecting everyone else to be like him.
And if he's willing to usurp, then he would expect other
people. Might try to use her of him so
he might try to remove all other potential claimants on the other
hand, he didn't murder Cregan. I mean that would have been
really bad from northern values perspective, being a kingslayer.
Nina. Guess is, they probably took her
egg inside there because again, you know, helping the actual
lawful claimant is generally. The morally upright thing to do
and even if we don't think they did it on moral grounds.
Well again, there'd be the rewards and just Northern
values. They're a little more dependable
and cases like this then perhaps the South if maybe only a little
bit. Again the servants probably took
Craig inside to thanks to that friendship.
That would be really interesting if they didn't both.
With the young Lords were against their father, or their
uncle and father or whoever whatever took place in 126
Cregan, managed to reclaim, his lordship had Bernard and his
three sons imprisoned almost immediately.
Mary's our Inori again, maybe that implies their help was
prominent, not just present and both the Glovers as well.
Maybe the Glovers and Nora's rather may have helped because
the Glovers were After all cragen's mother's family, the
men have been it. Might've been a really
interesting sort of East-West of in.
You got the Glovers on the west and the karstarks in the East
and maybe Nina says neither side wanted to be left out in the
cold if the other side one. Now if our Nori was a warrior it
would be kind of fitting given his personality and he later
Falls for black Ali Blackwood who definitely was a warrior
that need to bring that up in the hour of the Wolf episode.
By the way, our the Wolf episode that we Did with Nina as a guest
not just with her notes, although her notes alone or
substantial, it's even better when she's present.
So that's an absolute it back in. 2019 for that reason.
We're not going to go too deep into the hour of the wolf
because we've already covered it and there's so much else to say
about creegan but more on that when we get to it.
Yeah. I can really picture Bernard
side, kind of like bringing status back into it under
estimating, the hill Clans, which the Bolton's did as well.
In this case, in A Song of Ice and Fire we see standard scope.
What are you Me at first and then John describes it and
sentences like okay 3,000 men and all I got to do is make nice
and they're tough. You say like he'll fighter guys,
lot sounds great. Yeah, so I mean that is an
outsider it's a little more understandable he would
underestimate or even Beyond aware of these fellows didn't
take much to convince him that they were tough, strong fighter
to happen inside but aren't my is more likely to already know
that but it's there's a chance he still underestimated or that
they were a factor in general. So, Glover's Nori's maybe other
Hill Clans, maybe the entirety of the Hill clans were on Dragon
side. Now, it may not even come to
war, may not have come to violence.
I mean, after all Craig and his sons were just imprisoned,
there's no talk of a fight between them, maybe it was done
bloodlessly, but who knows what other house would be interesting
to see would be the locks. The lies of Locke was wife, the
benjen Stark, Who was the father of both rickon and Bernard.
So this was a divide between those two sides of the family.
So the locks may have played at neutral or decided with the
proper placement, what happened to Bernard and his sons, what?
We don't know, the wall seems not unlikely.
Reagan was a friend of the watch, which is certainly
typical for a stark. Maybe he kept one of them around
because You know, you got to have a Stark in Winterfell and
if Craig is the only one, if you'd sends all of his other kin
to the wall. Well, on the other hand, we
spoke about this other branch that Lenora Stark will
eventually emerge from maybe that was sufficient to have
Starks in the back. Right.
Unfortunately our Inori dies in 128, delivering a son whom
Cregan named after his own father rickon.
Yeah, so let's check the weather.
I talked about why we could be sure Cregan or rather why
Bernard couldn't use winter as an excuse for holding onto
cragen's lordship and in general, the behavior and
policies of the Starks and the north factor in Winter more so
than any other region. So we need to keep it in mind if
we're going to try to figure out why they did certain things at
certain times and or not, why they didn't do certain things at
certain times. I it's long, been said,
Affected. For example, the reason there's
no word of them in the blackfyre.
First, blackfyre rebellion was, maybe it was just winter, you
know, that could have kept him busy.
There's other reasons. The plenty of other reasons
potentially, but that's one of the easiest ones to throw out
there as a guess. And one of the more likely ones
to land in this case it's specifically relevant because
the north new along winter was coming prior to the dance of the
Dragons when Jason Luke left for those diplomatic missions.
In 129, it was already known. That Autumn was quote.
Well, Advanced part of why the storms outside storms end were
so bad. Furthermore, they knew it would
be a big one because as we know when ter Works kind of like a
pendulum, the seasons are longer this summer.
The longer the winter is going to be farther.
It swings one way. The farther it's going to swing
the other way back when winter comes halfway through the war in
the year 130, it's going to end up being a six-year winter.
From 130, 135 that probably means it was roughly a six-year
spring before. Maybe five maybe four.
He was shorter, but it would have I've been a longer than
usual one to set up a six-year winter.
So it probably began right around 124, right?
When Bernard refused to give up the lordship, so it's possible
that winter was just winding down and he wanted to hang on to
it till it was over, but then kept holding it onto it
afterwards, but I think there's a very good chance that was a
factor. In the early part but could not
have been a factor later so that's worth taking note of
winter always matters folks especially talking about the
north. So his nickname became the wolf
of the north, we're not entirely sure when that name came along
but it apparently already existed before he marched South
before he had the hour of the wolf in all that.
So his reputation preceded him despite his youth but I suppose
overthrowing your uncle when you're a teenager is a pretty
Good start to your career as a badass in the year, 126 18 years
old, Craig and took overlordship of the North and the warden chip
of the north. It's only three years later is
when the dance began by, then he was 21, had already lost the
love of his life and gained a son, not to mention.
He already had experience with Civil War, so he's done a lot
already. Even if he didn't fight in a
bloody Civil War, because we're again, we don't know how Bloody
the dance of the Our wolves even was and again, that's our title
for it. The dance entire world made that
up. Even if it did involve blood, it
didn't involve dragons and it took place in the north where no
fighting will take place in the dance, so still a lot of
differences. But Cregan would have been more
prepared than most I suppose. If not for winter.
Now, I wonder how much of the north took note of the doings in
the South if they knew this was coming, if they predicted it.
If Heck the red Kraken who is even a little younger than Craig
in here. Pretty young man.
Actually like him and friggin yes that's it.
That said he knew war was coming.
He figured it out. He could tell the greens and
blacks were going to go to go at each other's throats eventually
and he played his hand accordingly.
Now his was to profit from the Civil War.
That's not what Reagan did or probably considered, he may have
worried because if there's war in the South and winter is
coming, that could screw up there, Access to food because
they buy food from the south in Winter very typically so that
could be very worrisome and they would have an interest in if
they got involved making sure the war was short because yeah
the longer it drags out the bigger problems of food supply.
Get exacerbate. I would think the manderlys at
the very least would be keeping track of such things because
they're trading with the nor with the South you know every
day like literally They're shipped going in and out of
their port and a lot of them are going straight to King's Landing
or going to King's Landing via other destinations first or
other spots in the South. This is something that their
business, their wealth would depend on significantly.
So I think they would be paying attention to that now, they're
not worried about the lives of all the Innocents.
They're not concerned from, you know, a perspective of sympathy
or compassion, they're just yeah, they're worried about
trade and keeping their business in.
Place and all that, which you can expect that they might be
worried that things in the South will go south.
So if it isn't even question too about, just general trade
policies. If ferritin trades with
lannisport and Burton goes for the blacks, while lannisport
goes green, do they stop trading with each other?
Think a lot of it would but not all of it.
I mean a regular old Merchant doesn't fly some flag of
Allegiance if you're buying goods and barrowton and selling
them in lannisport, it's probably fine.
Even if there's a war going because you're not a barrowton
ship or a lannisport ship, you're just a ship.
They don't know where you're coming from, and they probably
don't care, but if House Lannister has a deal with house
Berenson or with House. Dustin rather, if lannisport has
a deal with barrowton that probably cease So the deals
between the Lord to Nobles would have to stop vis-à-vis, their
loyalty to their leads, Lord, right?
And it's possible, a lord would order even private merchants,
accept they shut down the port for the do something that's a
prevent deals from happening. After all, that is what happens
at Lourdes portwenn Balon. Greyjoy is preparing to attack
the Starks at the beginning of or the middle of a Clash of
Kings there. So, it is more than an idle
question because it's Herman's not just their War policy in the
South, but what their expectations are towards what's
going on with their other allies.
And you might think the Lords of the north could almost
effectively ignore what was going on the south and that
would be true for some of them and maybe more true the farther
north you get. But that would be less true of
creegan because of a number of factors one.
It's his job to make sure the north is doesn't starve.
I might mean looking outside. That might mean looking ahead to
being prepared for such eventualities and again, all
signs pointed to a long nasty winter.
And that's why he took so long to show up for the war.
It wasn't an excuse. So let's talk about the winters
wolves in the merman because they were the first ones to join
the war and creeks and Shirley signed off on that.
If not made the plan specifically, they're not
necessary with the merman. We'll get to that here.
Craig Craig has first priority is Winners we discussed, but as
we well know, The onset of winter in the north is
synonymous with older Winters older women older Warriors
giving up their lives to give their families a better shot at
making it to the next spring. This would be of particular
priority. Given always said about how long
spring had been the older folk of the north would know what was
coming at the end of that long spring for them even like, all
right, this is our last spring, it's going to be time to ride
off into battle, or brought go off hunting in quotes.
As we know, that's how they That's what they call it.
So this is a big reversal there like um actually, we could go
die in the South. That's actually dying in
battles, a lot more preferable than freezing to death bake
hunting and it's a chance to represent the North and this
might mean more than you might think.
Showing the southerners what the north is all about, showing them
how tough they are, how strong they are.
They might still be remembering King, torrhen marching South and
kneeling remember how upset the Northwest have after that, a lot
of Turin Sons were very frustrated.
It didn't come to Civil War but from what we hear it might have
might have been prevented before it got started, but if certain
diplomatic procedures or actions weren't taken, maybe it would
have. We know other Northerners left
the north, do sellsword company stuff.
In essos. So yeah, it was a very unpopular
decision. Sir probably wasn't forgotten.
We're not that long past. It's only 100 years later 130,
you know. And that's what this is 130
years after thousands of years of the status quo.
Yeah. Hard to forget.
So I gotta think that this is still an old especially because
the north remembers. It's like their thing, right?
So deployed initially were these Winters wolves.
Actually technically the manderlys got sent first because
Met with them. First on his way to Winterfell
and they agreed to send some men South but those men traveled by
ship to King's Landing which meant they were not marching
with the winners wolves who went by horse.
And by the way, Jace agreed, that Joffrey his younger brother
would marry manderlys youngest daughter, that's important,
given other marriage facts, that will come back to in a minute.
So manually nights and men in arms, went by ship and the
winners wolves March down the Cause way through the neck Into
the riverlands. Now, what conversations did
creegan have with Roderick Dustin easy?
Like all right, you've been a great man.
See you later. Like, you know, he's marching
off to die. They both know that.
Like, what kind of a parting you have in that moment?
It's not like, going off to war when you might die.
Like, that's because that's normal for war.
You might die. This is you fully expect to die.
Die. I mean, this is like a Last
Stand thing except it's not defense.
So it's it is a little unusual to put yourself in that mindset.
This is another question. I asked back in the under the
Dragon episode Roddy was known to be a warrior and was up there
in age. What were they fighting?
No, no. This had to be something.
The Pact of Ice and Fire. Again, this is something that
will probably discuss Fuller later, it's a little big on its
own and not the actual packed so much as the saris, no stuff part
of it because it's so theoretical.
There's so many directions, it could go naming all the
different possibilities, that's where you really find a lot of
time gets spent on be rising. So, we'll save that for another
time. The basics.
However, is that well, Jace and creegan seem to get along.
Which separate House of the Dragon.
That's what rhaenyra says to Jace.
Similar H to use a young man. Like you, you guys might get
along good point and apparently they did.
And there's a couple of other factors a bow that that's one
thing. They both have in common is
being usurped by their uncle had a.
Oh yeah, you were here sir by your uncle.
So is that? What's up, bro?
According to Monken Craig and like Chase as well because he
reminded him of his deceased younger brother.
So that would be that would be A pretty big deal.
And, of course, all the standard Noble activities in Sioux
hunting training together. Feasting and drinking, they
don't mention Hawking. I don't think he has much in the
north but a decent chance that happened to According to Eustace
the septon cept, in Eustis. Keep in mind Jays tries to
convert Cragen to the faith. Like did he that sounds like yes
I don't believe that it's possible.
I mean again this is what happens when you see a TV show
version, we don't Jase isn't super fleshed out and Fire and
Blood. The Jace of TV does not seem
like he would try to convert. Although he did swear on the
faith of the seven. That still he was team learning
Valerian. And I was, anyway, I don't
believe this line from Eustace I'm a lot more likely to believe
mushroom and this story of Sarah snow even though this is a
little sketchy to because no one else mentions her hair.
Look pretty common headcanon fan Theory here, but I've seen that,
I don't think the show will go in this direction, but I am
partial to it is these, which is that Jason Cragen really got
along really good. Like they've had a romance.
Oh, wow, I can Cragen Stark by black Ali Blackwood, you know,
like if you're saying like well he was married well, it's like
well Ali. Also by, you know.
Yeah, that's right. There's a lot of shippers out
there who do ship Jace and Cragen and who thinks Sarah was
faith and not real. And I think that's interesting.
That's the fake. The fake cheese?
The stand-in for their relationship.
Yeah. Okay.
I mean, yeah, there's no obvious, there's no evidence for
it. But besides I'm getting along
well which isn't evidence it just opens the possibility, but
hey, that's cool. Hey yeah, it's certainly
possible. Can't can't discard it.
It will see you will see what the show does.
Yeah, I agree with you. They won't, they won't like
that, but I think I do think. They'll do the saris no thing.
Yeah I think so. I mean I think they will because
they set up so much that Jace knows, he's a bastard.
Yeah, and so for him to connect with a bastard me yeah, it's
huge. And then the tragedy that will
come from that and then it sets up gives Mo Creek and more
motivation to like he's mad at what happened.
Like it's a little bit personal for him that this kid, he likes
it reminded him of his brother who's killed and give them more
incentive to be so harsh like later.
He's so harsh and unyielding might be partly because of a
little bit of anger over Jason's death.
God, makes it really tragic when you think about, like Cragen
with little egg on, like as his hand and like being reminded of
like, make me really like makes me very sad to think about as a
lot of tragedy to like deep relationship, they had.
Yeah, I think there's a lot of pathos here, that might be, that
the show is probably gonna get into its of a lot of ways.
They could go with it. But yeah, there's a lot of Lot,
they can do. And I guess a lot of it won't be
season 2 out of it. Yeah, setup and season two and
then, come to fruition in. Probably not till season 4, but
I don't imagine, they'd write friggin entirely out of season
3. They got having do something
will see a way that's something we'll just wait and see on.
It's a Greek and father Rick on as well.
This is important had sworn to Rainier.
He had bent the knee to her when viserys asked for it back in,
whatever that was 105. 106. And of course, the manderlys
already had their deal in place. So the north is very much for
the blacks at this point, very little Consideration seem to
have been given for them to go any other way despite what the
high Towers may have thought or hoped for might have been, looks
like it was kind of wishful thinking there or maybe just to
align to intimidate the blacks and thinking, hey, the Starks
are considering her offer like they probably weren't.
But he just wanted to say that to try to get his way.
So Jace does agree to marry his eventual firstborn daughter to
Kragen's son. Rick on who, at this point would
be about to That would have been huge and it happened right
Targaryen blood in the Stark wine.
That's a princess that was promised by the way and rickon I
suppose would be a prince who was promised coming the other
way? I mean I think it means a little
more when it's a Targaryen so a princess that was promised seems
to be the relevant one here. But hey both could count.
So that's really big deal. That's you can see why there's a
lot more to this that that requires exploration but given
how much we have to cover with Ricans life C90 some years?
Well we'll definitely do this with stand alone.
So Craig Consent. The winners wolves ahead have
some 8,000 hoary. Old Warriors ready to go, but he
also sent a letter promising more.
Here's what it said from Winterfell Cragen Stark wrote to
say that he would bring a host South as soon as he could.
But warned that it would take some time to gather his men for
my Realms or large and with winter upon us.
We must needs bring in our last Harvest or starve when the Snows
come to stay the northmen promised, the queen ten.
Men younger and fiercer than my winter wolves.
Well, unfortunately, they did start when the Snows came to
stay. Anyway.
I guess it just would have been worse.
Had they not stayed for this? Yeah, because it was a bad
winter indeed, though that did occupy him getting all the rest
of the men together and getting the harvests in while Roddy's
ruin, and his men died. Gloriously in the South slaying
many times, their own losses and inspiring fear in the southern
Warriors. Which maybe helped pave the way
for brigands March later. So when that time came,
obviously, we don't need to cover what happened in the
dance. We're just concerned with Cregan
right now and he came down in the hour of the wolf, very late
after the battle called the muddy mess.
Down the neck, came Cragen Stark, Lord of Winterfell, with
a great host at his back cept, in Eustis speaks of 20,000,
howling, Savages, and Shaggy pelts, though.
Monken lowers that to 8,000 in his true telling maybe it was
somewhere in between either way, it was a lot.
I don't think they were Savages at all.
Yeah, they may have been wearing Shaggy pelts though.
Yeah. And I may have done a little
help. Yeah.
We covered this as well. Also in the hour of the Wolf
episode, we'll skip over some of it but let's look at it.
A big from a big picture perspective then since we're not
going to get too much into the details of it because it is a
such a big thing. He showed that the start keep
their word as they tend to but reminded the south of that
because they may have forgotten and while the north remembers
the south is not winter. Is there bigger priority?
That was also communicated very thoroughly.
I mean if he had come sooner watch by would have won.
Not that. It's his fault.
I'm not blaming it. Just saying that it had winter
been time differently. Yeah.
That the arrival of that, many Northern soldiers to fight for
rhaenyra. I mean, that's just, it would
have been, it would have been a different world but it that way,
even if you don't assume that, the blacks are the ones.
Some not me but you could raise an eyebrow and call the timing
of his March, very convenient. Now again, I don't say that we
know winner was real, we know it was severe but Southerners don't
necessarily see it that way. You might be like, look at it,
they look at it like an ambitious play.
This guy waited for all the South to beat itself up to tear
itself, to shred waited for pretty much all the dragons to
be dead. And then he marched his army,
South and went straight for the capital without some of the
detail about winter and all that other stuff.
Might really look like kinda like what Tywin did without the
sack of course, but just wait to see who comes out on top and
then jump on their side right? I mean to be fair yes he sent
men well ahead of that and they did great but he didn't
personally come. So if he's thinking about if
you're looking at it cynically thinking well what it really
does look like he sent some men to make it look like you're
participating but himself he held back and then when everyone
was all messed up he came in and seize power of Course events,
after that would prove that he was not after just power though
he did certainly benefit from marching South and establishing
a relationship with the new young king.
But to flip it, that's a really cynical take that Southerners,
may have held at least for some time and maybe even after they
can invent excuses as to why he left that are friendly to him.
That don't take the full context into play.
But yeah, looking at him or romantically?
Lord, Kragen's marched, erased. The shame of King torrhen
kneeling, they both marched South with huge arms intent on
confronting House, Targaryen neither actually ended up going
to war. But to be fair, creaking was not
exactly confronted by the same House Targaryen that aegon.
Had that Senate Orrin had, but Optics wise could serve to tell
the story. Creegan came he saw he they
didn't conquer but he wanted to. He wanted to do what a God did
he wanted to do more like egg on than his predecessor Turin?
He was like yeah. Let's go on.
Let's go. Attack.
Pastor Lee Rock. Let's Go.
Tax forms own and he seemed serious.
It didn't seem I'm like, Bluster.
I mean, you might think it was. I mean, really who attacks
casterly Rock and storms end without dragons?
Well, this guy apparently, this guy he had them convinced and me
too. I think I'm convinced even
cited, those who thought a gan. The first was mad for thinking,
he could conquer all Western. They're like, you can't do that.
This is mad. There's no way you can conquer
all those boxes. Like that's what they said to
egg on there. Like, you don't have Dragons.
It's like we don't need them niether, do they?
Today, you know, so he wasn't hearing when he argued to go to
war the concerns about. Yeah, but a lot of people will
die, that doesn't move him at all.
He's like so what Justice comes first?
He's like the wars not over. Did they bend the knee?
Did they give back the Crown's gold?
Aren't there still Targaryen airs in their possession?
How can you say the war is over? The war is over when they bend
the knee, not when they say they want peace so that he was able
to have his way because a had this much stronger personality,
be he had all his men there and they didn't know yet somewhere
between eight to twenty thousand.
Quote-unquote Savages, And it's funny to think about that.
We don't see them as Savages, but if the South did then that
intimidates them even more, you know, our opinion on that
doesn't matter. It's there as far as how they
perceived it. Northerners were all over King's
Landing and the red keep it's never been seen before or since
so many Northerners, just everywhere in the south in the
capital must have blown Minds. Here's a nice lengthy.
Quote to describe it in their mail shirts and Shaggy fur
cloaks their features hidden behind thick Tangles beard.
They swaggered through the city. Like so many armored Bears.
Said, mushroom most of what King's Landing New of North
Bend. They had learned from Sarah
meldrick, manderley, and his brother.
They're Turin courtly men, well-spoken handsomely, clad
well, disciplined and godly. The Winterfell men did not even
honor the true Gods set to news. Just notes with horror they
scorned the seven ignored the feast days.
Mocked the holy books showed no reverence to septon for SEPTA
worshipped, trees two years past Cragen Stark had made a promise
to Prince to carries now he Had come to make good his pledge
though Jace and the queen. His mother were both dead.
The north remembers Lord Stark declared when Prince aegon Lord
corley's and the lads been him. Welcome really does something
for me. This hearing him say the north
remembers. I felt that like yeah he's so
serious. He's so intense.
You explain something in the chat me sure.
Tell magician says, the real question is, did Cragen get the
save for his? Eighth-inning appearance and
guilty. Undertaker says if Cragen got
the save, did the lads get the hold or the wind will you?
I don't get I don't understand. Baseball enough to know exactly
what that means. Okay.
So yeah, those are you do know that those are baseball?
Reference's a case. So a win is credited to the
pitcher who had the lead when he left the game.
Assuming the lead is held. Okay.
Because they get, they get the stack called the win.
It's usually goes to the guy who pitches along.
Yeah. But it changes.
The save is the guy comes in at the end.
End and finishes the game holds a saves the wind keeps in gland
and the Pitcher who keeps the lead, but doesn't finish the
game gets a whole crap. So this accurate.
Yeah, that's pretty accurate creaking.
Start came in, got to save for the blacks.
Kept, make sure they won Hagan. The three was there again?
The third was there and he held me, he made.
Sure. I got the third kept his spot
nature known overthrew him settled.
It all. Yeah, works.
That works for baseball metaphor and base.
Season just restarted on Friday or Thursday.
So it's timely this reinforces how much Northern honor was at
issue. It isn't just about the Turin
stuff. I'm sort of inventing that I I'm
assuming it's there, I feel strongly about it, the north
remembers, you know, they've this is their attitude, but for
sure they're remembering the promise.
They made more recently, they definitely pledge to rhaenyra.
They definitely made the deal with Jace.
The pack of Ice. And Fire was nickname given to
it by Monken. But whatever name you call it,
it was a Shreemant and the north keeps its word that's important
though. I really had a love that quote.
The armored bears like. Yeah.
So what she leaves. Giggles a little kid I couldn't
help myself. Yeah, it's fun to think about
how they were like, oh, that's what in Northern is like the
manderlys come like, hello. We had heard, you know, this
isn't so bad. He's Northerners all right
there. Like oh, those are the Nerf
herders. That's not at all what we
thought. Wow, it gives you an idea of how
little the Northerners hung. In the south at least in groups.
You know, a lot of these folk hadn't seen, a lot of
Northerners only seen a couple at a time or yeah.
So he arranged his hand of the king and even when Ned did he
didn't bring near as many men with him.
So he was there probably only about as long as Ned was,
neither of them held that hand of the king position for Furlong
unlike Ned Craig and yelled. It almost everyone, intimidated.
Almost as many where's Ned was soft-spoken.
He only yelled at like I do middle finger and Robert Cregan
sentence. Lot of people to death.
Ned did that to most of those took the black which Cregan was
probably cool with because he was said to be a friend of the
watch again. So it's Ned.
It's almost hilarious. How much the lads who are the
young Lords of the riverlands. It survived the early battles
and men and became Lord in their own right due to early deaths
and such the man not the last. Yeah, they were he wasn't much
older than them and he's like I said, it's 22 or 23 during this
part. They actually fought in the War.
He did like they fought in a battle like one of them smashed
borrows Baratheon in the face with a spiked mates, right?
Black Ali Blackwood shot people with arrows, you know, Kraken
didn't kill anyone, he marched his army South, he was handling
winter, you know, which is hard, but he didn't fight any battles,
but they were like, okay, fine, you win, you know, because they
were intimidated by him. So that's really that says a
lot. Like this guy who hadn't fought
in a in any of the battles War. Now, he had fought apparently.
Overthrow his own Uncle. Although even that may not have
been War either way, it's a great statement on just how
intimidating and forthright and just prominent he was and he
played on not on like scaring them.
He wasn't like, I'm going to kill you.
He was just hammered away at what their own values are
supposed to be like that stuff. I said before, regarding, how
can you say the war is over? They still have the Crown's
money. They still have princesses.
And other people that have committed crimes, that have not
answered for you. Can't call it over like your
honor demands that you keep going.
You won one battle and you want to say, you're done.
What is that? So they couldn't argue with that
because he's right. I mean and I don't mean right
like from a cosmic perspective I mean he's right by the values
that they all commonly professed, a hold.
So you basically just a really good lawyer, you know, you told
them like look, guys, you've already said you already agreed
with this. Before.
Why aren't you fulfilling it and so they, yeah.
They had to go with it. Hang on the third though, on the
other hand, treated him very differently.
He didn't apparently come down heavily on him, he wasn't
aggressive with him, apparently they got along, it may have
been, yeah, it gives off some Ned.
Brandon Barnes, net brand like his son, bran because well
Brands the only of his sons that we see him have intimate moments
with. We see a little with Aria and
love with Sansa with Ned and a little with bran.
We don't ever seen Ed really have a moment Rob, or with
reckon or even really with John. He did with John on TV, but not
on the books. We're told aegon took to crack
and he liked him, maybe having this strong.
Presence who wasn't trying to get things out of him.
He wasn't trying to exploit egg on, he wasn't trying to get
honors and titles from him, which egg on I think was aware
of from from very early life. He was surrounded by hangers-on
people, who were ambitious people, the period of Regency
was terrible, right? The whole secret Siege and all
that business. So he was probably very weary
this from very early on and may have respected Cragen or not
trying to do that for having a For an approach to everything
more about settling the war more focused on ending the conflict
and setting, the realm back up, rather than what can I get out
of this, which is how a lot of the Lord's were treating.
What can I get Adams? The Unwin Peaks, but even Turin
manderley, yeah, some more than others, especially Peak, but
really friggin Stark just came in and I don't even seemed
refreshing, but they're still fear and xenophobia and play,
maybe even a bag on the third didn't hold.
Those views, he wasn't afraid or intimidated or prejudiced
against Northern culture. It had been a long time, since
any Northern Army had come, South and had been seen because
the rather Winters wolves never like went into a city, they were
out in battles and such and sure other soldiers encountered them.
But they weren't like walking around the streets of King's
Landing. They fought and died out in
fields, and streams of the riverlands and the reach.
So, there were a lot of rumors about wood.
Creaking might do mix, these rumors with having his army and
Northern ambition and not understanding Northern values.
The way we do. And what you get is, a lot of
Southerners who were worried about, what is this guy going to
do? Is he going to take over as you
can install himself? And what did I say before about
waiting till the war was basically over before he marched
South and how that looks real Tywin s.
So you can see why they were worried.
There was no sack. Like I said, like there was with
Tywin but people might have been worried that there would be they
might have been worried that any minute he Ambitious,
Northerners, if he doesn't get what he wants and what would
they be able to do about it? Nothing Ron made me.
Hide me. It's about it.
And there's people that might start such rumors.
That might fuel such rumors that fan, the Flames of such like a
lhari strong, for example, but not particularly him because he
was locked up spoink Reagan, put him right in jail.
How long is he staying? It was like okay, you know,
you're one of the biggest problems there is.
Peace us that out right away now, Maybe Lori's had agents out
in the field work on his behalf, but I kind of think it was rats
fleeing a sinking ship kind of situation here.
Yeah, emphasis on the rats, are ya.
Lads had been talked into marching with Greg and storms
end, and perhaps Beyond, and kriging again had imprisoned,
those two, this he's making large strong and many others,
but things were resolved with diplomacy quote.
The great Lords would have given us another two years of war, the
fool declares in his testimony. It was the women who made the
piece lack a lie. The maiden of The Veil, The
Three widows, the dragon twins. Was Ben who brought the
bloodshed? It end and not with swords are
poison, but with Ravens words and kisses, so great and didn't
even seem to have the diplomacy mindset.
It wasn't that he wasn't willing to accept diplomacy.
He wasn't really willing to ask like he was like yeah, let's
send them a message that. Hey if you bend the knee will be
done with it. Seems like no let's just march
on them. If they bend the knee then okay,
fine. But screw this letter writing
stuff, right. But others were like now,
letters, workmanlike letters can do a lot.
Lot. So let's let's try this.
And the reason women are crowded with piece here, despite the sea
snake being the one to extend. All these offers is actually
pretty straightforward. First of all, most of the offers
were accepted by ladies ruling in place of their dead
husband's. Because a lot of us husbands
died in the dance. And a lot of these ladies were
protecting the interest of their firstborn son, who was now the
Lord, but is too young to rule correctly because they're a
child. So they're protecting the
interests of this of their son who probably won't send.
For eight or 10 years or a couple of years, why would they
want to keep fighting? They're looking out for their
future, their house and their son or rest their family as
well. Milady the veil was mentioned,
they're made in the veils or other name.
She had been in charge, since prior to the war had been a
staunch allies to. She was right there with her men
in the fighting will not literally, she sent her man, and
then was right there to help peace.
The three. Widows for exactly who the three
widows are. One of them is Johanna
westerling. I forget who the other two are.
The dragon twins are bailing Reina and Bay and Reina had
morning. Her Dragon, who was a pink?
Yeah. There's two Bad Dragon.
Yeah, that you were Samantha tarly and A lender.
Baratheon. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. Well, Sam Carly, Sam Carly of
course and Atlanta. It was the, I guess the wife of
Boris. Oh yeah.
That was one of the well, that was one of the wild like her
first husband was boros and then she married Stephen connington
when she woke up without twice over maybe, I don't know.
But yeah, that was the mother of like all those Baratheon girls
that like a minute, you know, Marys and Flores and Ellen and
all them. Yeah.
Right on Mama. Yeah.
So that was huge. They're all like you foolish
men. Of course we're done with this.
Let's finally be doing this work.
And so Rana was really important because the dragons were mostly
dead, there were still a few left, but none of them were
really being controlled by anyone.
So right. A having one looked important
because it appeared as though that would eventually be an
adult and some Targaryen power be restored.
There's a Reina was a pretty big deal and she was one of the ones
pushing for peace. Now, Raina, of course, was more
of the softer personality, more diplomatic courtly.
Meanwhile Bela was aggressive and Wilder and that proved
useful because cracking responded to that like Bela got
mad. And yeah, here's where it one of
the pieces of evidence that he has a soft spot for women.
Here's a one-liner not even the tears of a dragon could melt the
frozen heart of Cragen Stark. Men said rightly.
Yeah, Reina had moved a lot of people but not Craig it but Bela
she grabbed her sword and protested, the execution of men
that set her free. She's like look, yeah, they
murdered the guards to get me out, but they were on the right
side and I will not stand for you executing.
And she just waving her story around in court that you grabbed
off a guard and Krakens like, I like you.
Okay. So he has a soft spot for hard
women, apparently, and so he's Okay, if you like those dogs so
much, you can keep them. So, just like that her display
of Bravery in the face of all, this was what moved him,
apparently. I'm according to the maesters
according to sources. I mean, and mushroom, the
maesters, the, the septons and the mushrooms.
So ultimately, the women didn't convince Cregan, they convinced
egg on the king but a gun wasn't of age yet still Cregan didn't
overrule him. He Kept it, what the young king
said, even though he didn't have to know crazy.
Like, no, I'm hands. You're under 16.
We're doing what I say that again, probably helps.
Keep their relationship strong, you respected the king and later
their relationship would be good.
Even when Craig was back in the north and a gun was rolling his
own, right? I paid off anyway, here's a
quote relating to that a new war would not have this made him
indeed, at times, he seemed to seek it, it is mushroom.
Who provides the most Lucid explanation for this surprising
leniency in The Wolf of Winterfell.
It was not the prince who swayed him, the full claims nor the
Threat of the Valerian fleets nor even the entreaties of the
twins. But rather a bargain struck with
Lady Alice Ann of house Blackwood.
Now she is putting on screen some artwork.
Yeah there's Cragen Stark and black Ali Blackwood by name.
He makes art. He makes art.
We see those those dark grey eyes.
Yeah. Naomi does make our quite well
the full conversation between them and Fire and Blood is Be
fun, it's too long to go through all of it.
It's one of the more substantial conversations in the entire
book. Usually don't get that much back
and forth, usually just like a line and then a response, then
that's it. But this is several back and
force. So he steers her towards
accepting marriage in exchange for peace and mushrooms suggest.
That's what she wanted all along.
I mean, as if she saw an amazing win win situation, which it is,
it's like, for her. It's what it looks like.
Peace for the realm and I marry the young Lord of Winterfell.
Like that is win-win but not just for hers, win-win-win
Winterfell. Yeah, other things like besides
preventing War, which alone is massive, the marriage to
creegan, which is huge. The removal of the stain on our
honor with regard to torrhen Stark.
They had came and done that many join the Nights Watch because
when it came time to do the executions friggin wasn't
backing down on that, many of them were like hey Nights, Watch
Nights. Watch will join the Nights,
Watch and Megan's like okay, cool.
Saves me. A swing of my sword.
The sea snake got off as well because Callie one.
Yeah, he got off. Yeah he got because black Ali
said he needs to be free as part of this.
So he agreed to that. As part of the peace deal Lori's
however was executed and he did not go to the wall, he opted not
to go to the wall, but he also asked for his foot to come off
after his head. That's the whole weird story,
but there were a lot of Northerners.
There's who came sell expecting to die and going Wasn't
appealing. Why?
Well, quote, the Snows were already deep beyond the net.
The cold winds are rising and keep sand castles and humble
Villages throughout the north, the Great and Small alike prayed
to their carved. Wooden God, trees.
That this winter might be sure. He'll only put that carved
wooden. God trees.
The prejudice against northerner, Northern believes in
Fire, and Blood is just so strong like like prey to their
dead idols. Zuv P.
I'm just like big like what do they talk about the faith of the
seven like that? Like they're lifeless statues.
So they would put it probably lifeless statues and these
inanimate objects inanimate objects that we have humanized
many different versions. Yes, each one has seven
personalities or beyond that, even.
Yeah, the other one is, what is it?
What did you used to say about saris know?
He's like, there's no way that he's the prince gave up his
virtue to unwashed Northern Savage, half-wild unwashed like
Yeah. How do you know she's unwashed
man? Like even the half wild part is
just ask is a stretch, like you don't even think she exists yet.
Your prospering, she's unwashed. I got that's like my go-to
example of prejudices. I washed the second was, he's
Define prejudice for me. It's when it's when you syscall
Sarasota. Okay.
But it is still relevant. The reason that prejudice is
important is because yeah a lot of other people Would feel like
Eustace a lot of this. The he's not the only prejudiced
Southerner against Northerners. We have to think that a lot of
others felt that way, but on the other hand, many widowed River,
Landers, obviously I'm referring to women.
As I said widowed are like, well, what do I do now?
Like the riverlands as so often happens in a civil war gets
shredded by battles and armies passing through and the horses,
eating all their grass and the soldiers eating all their food.
And Pilfering their Villages or worse.
So this was the natural solution all those Northern Warriors who
expected to die. Well, why not?
Stay a new lease on life, a life?
No, unexpected. Hey, you could live in the
riverlands where it's warmer you could have land, you could have
a wife, you might actually take over bothering of the Widow's
children. You might, you might have like a
real purpose. Life here.
So that's what a reversal for these individuals.
They're like, all right, I'm going to go to the South and Dot
like Reagan said To the lads and they're like, your men are going
to die and these was like they died the moment, they marched,
South boy, you know what he's saying?
Boy to someone who's like four years younger than him.
What a reversal like they think they're going to die.
They're expecting it. It's almost like they're looking
forward to it in some strange way.
But now, all of a sudden, they're like, well actually stay
here do this. Now, of course, there were also,
there were more sellsword companies formed as well because
not everyone wanted this life of meaning in living with a person
and raising a family, that's not what everyone wants but plenty
of people accepted that offer like a thousand men or more and
that really helped set up the future north-south connection or
at least riverlands North. In that comes along and Song of
Ice and Fire. It's already sort of been there.
I mean, you've got houses, like, Blackwood that already the old
gods and hey, the North, and the riverlands our neighbor.
So, yeah, a lot of stuff that makes sense.
They're so black alley and creegan departed, King's Landing
for the north ditto for Creek and he had a new lease on life
when he didn't expect. He didn't expect to find a bride
in the South. Well, maybe he did, but nothing
overtly suggest that I do. Imagine he wanted to remarry.
Although, at this point, He had a son.
He had an air though that would change eventually as well.
He was offered a place amongst the Regency, but decline, which
may have finally put to rest some of the talk that he was out
in this for himself and for ambition, probably didn't put
that to rest entirely but it was a big push back against anyone
who thought he intended to stay because he did, he left and he
took his men with it. Well, except for the ones who
migrated to the riverlands. But those were individuals
settling in single plots here. And there there were no longer
an army. So kind of an underrated move
there. He was succeeded, as Hand by
Thailand Lannister. By the way, the hooded hand
Jason's brother who survived the war, but the Lannister twins
been on the council. Yeah, that's right.
So he made it through as well. All right, let's take a quick
break here. Hmm.
Here's a funny thing. I found in the suspect Martin
looking up stuff about the Crips and things.
As a question, George was asked in 1999.
January 3rd, 1999. Now, this is the caveat here.
The wording comes from. The person people who took this
information down, it doesn't necessarily George's exact
wording, but the gist here are not alone is pretty important.
So the guy reading. Yeah, you got to read it after
rereading both a got and a cock. I was wondering about one
question. Why was Hodor not afraid of the
Crips under Winterfell? At the end of a Clash of Kings?
Any Game of Thrones Hodor was very afraid of the crits.
He wouldn't take Brian down there but in the class, A shove
Kings, he stayed with bran and rickon in the Crypt, for quite a
while. How did he stay there if he was.
So afraid in the answer, from George Hodor was only afraid of
the Crips at that specific time, not before and not after, oh,
there he telling Sodor sense, something down there and it may
have been, you know, the coming the foreshadowing for Ned death
or something else. Really cool.
When of your green stones asks might be a question for the end,
but who is your fan cast actor for creaking Stark?
He's Liam Neeson in my head. I mean I can see Liam Neeson for
the old man old old. Yeah but you know like middle
raise the age that I think. A lot of people picture Cragen
starcat, I do like as there's a conversation about in the chat.
I like how old you picture him or how old you picture people
like dunk or any of these characters because like, they
live a long love whole long life, you know, your vision of
them could be a lot of different ages, I personally, Adieu
picture, 22 year-old Cragen and I want an unknown.
If you've listened to the podcast long enough, you know,
that's always my answer. Should these Fan cast questions?
Give me someone. I don't know very well.
Yeah, I think I prefer an unknown as well, and your right
is going to be someone Young's. It's more likely to be an
unknown. Yeah.
Someone with less of a career less time to have established a
career. Let alone, something big, you
know, I want someone from the last Kingdom just for more last
Kingdom house there. I can cross overs.
We've got like Elena. Got a men and a million other
people. I would have faith, but uh, if
they give it, put a beard on the guy who played The Last King
there Edward. He was probably, yes, he's II.
Where's I think? Like, if the actors like
neutered wasn't so much older than he is now but like, a, you
know, one here, the beginning of that show, like I see him so
Stark, why? Okay, let's see who tread, but
not anymore. Now, he needs to be a lot.
You like a decade or more younger than?
Yes. Yes.
Is Alexander Gammon have a younger brother or?
Yeah, that's his name. Alexander drain, dips son.
I like that called. Yeah Guinevere Liam Neeson for
for a middle-aged, freaking that would work quite well.
He's got that intensity and he's got that Charisma and and
dominate. All right, friends, we are
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Like for example, Joe magician. Shout out to my buddy and
hopefully still in the chat. There were next time we have him
on them to be like I'm going to use the episode Searcher to
romantical. How many episodes Community been
on several. I can't remember.
I'm actually off top my head. I would use that to figure out
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Clue to any of y'all. If you want your Joe magician
fix, you can check out the ones he's been on with us.
Or just head over to his channel and watch his direct content
that works too. He is.
But I am so curious to find this out and I am going to see
exactly how many he's been I'm gonna guess for four episodes.
Joe magician has been on. Yeah okay.
I think you've way undersold it. He's been on 777 but I don't
know if I'm I don't think we've had him on since I think I've
kept it up. Don't leave had a month since
House of the Dragon. No we haven't yapping.
So yeah seven episodes he's been on one of which was our
multiplayer Crusader Kings strange.
I didn't count that one. Yeah, I like that one.
Quite the same, but we did do a game stream with him one time.
Okay, I wouldn't have kind of that was.
I will say the romance was sick. So I was, I was, I sold it short
by a full thirty three percent. How's your guess?
Oh. Geez IDK like 60.
He was right. Whoa, he knew you actually
didn't know he's dead. I was like, no, you were right
unless you count. I count the game stream because
it's on our Channel. You could watch it.
Yeah you could. So what?
Yeah, speaking of true, we are in the increase.
Other kings 3 beta. We can't share too much about
it. Well, I don't have much for
sharing beta will launch on April 14th.
Yeah. So we I haven't actually played
it yet. We're going.
We apparently just got access today so I could maybe start
playing it soon. So we're going to also have ck3
streams returning at some point. That's part of why I haven't
returned to the game streamed yet because we knew that ck3 was
close. Yeah, yes, iting.
So, yeah, we'll be able to record content to release later,
but once it's public, you know, once it's out, we can just
stream As we would. So it'll be fun.
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Think of a simple click and it just gets added to your monthly
subscription so you can kind of just fire-and-forget not worry
about it again. There is a Creek in Stark, in
The Song of Ice and Fire. You may remember him as I'm
sorry, creaking karstark, it's not going to fire.
You may remember him as the one that tried to forcibly, marry
Alice, karstark is nice. And is, as we last Saw
imprisoned in a nice cell. No creegan Stark, married Ali,
not Alice, and didn't have Chaser back to kind of sounds
like more like She chased him a bit and he liked, and hey, why
not? I would like that to Black.
Alex sounds pretty awesome. Now, let's talk about her, as I
said, this would be called the black Ali era because at some
point he went from the wolf in the North to the old man of the
North in between was her. So she is a good enough
Milestone. One of the best, probably let's
have a quote about her. Though.
Black Ali was no man's. Queen of love, and beauty her
fearlessness, her. Fearlessness stuff got here.
Listlessness her fearlessness, laughs.
Okay, I'm going to start that over Bill black Ali was no man's
Queen. Usually, I get the kicks of.
Oh okay though, black Ali was no.
That's History. This is the worst and it's
pickle so bad. No.
Black Ali was no man's, queen of love, and beauty, her
fearlessness, stubborn strength and body tongue.
Struck a chord for the Lord of Winterfell who soon began to
seek out her company in Holland yard.
She smells of wood smoke not of flowers.
Stark told lord, cerwyn said to be his closest friend.
How do we find that out of him out of the sources?
Find out what Stark told, Lord, Sauron and Saruman.
Like go Spill. The Beans, ha ha ha.
He's he said, she smells upon smoke.
Without flour what a kind of northerner says that but speak
for yourself Meister. No man's queen of love, and
beauty, like the hell is that? It sounds like this is
franken's. Queen of love and beauty.
Yeah, he was exactly like I mean, this is the same guy who
called Sarah snow, half wild Savage a lock.
So, you know us for sure. Berry sauce.
Yes. So they were married late in 132
many. After they left Winterfell, are
after they left the South no rush.
I suppose, they had to get it all together.
Invite the guests, but it happened at the gods wouldn't
Winterfell. And we know bloody been her
nephew like I was nephew was in attendance and rickon, Young
Rick guns for years old sang for her which is like what a detail
to include was what, how heartwarming unfortunately, this
is where things start to become considerably less detailed
because this is almost near the end of Fire and Blood here.
And there's only a few more notes for Fire and Blood that
Apply to our story from from that, from that point on, it
becomes inferences from just historical detail.
We lose like direct quotes and things like that.
We don't know how long black Ali lives seems like, it was on the
longer side for a couple reasons, one of which is that he
did eventually remarry. But it seems to have been pretty
far in the future given when those children were born with
that third wife, Lenora as well. He had four Daughters with black
alley, which you know, that could have happened in a fairly
short span like four or five years, but that's not likely.
It's more likely to have been spread out somewhat.
And with this to you wonder about his soft spot for women,
what it meant to him to have a bunch of daughters, and you
wonder if that Goods back to our Inori or maybe Sarah snow is
real and she reminded and was actually wild and her all huh.
Yeah, maybe he wasn't all that wrong, maybe she was unwashed,
you know, Maybe he really loved his mother and or Grandma.
You know, maybe they all remind him of our, there's all these
Rich options we have. We can't narrow it down to a
specific one but of Joyce's decent fellow.
Yeah, yeah exactly how the choices we have.
And there's several they all there's some really solid ones.
But as I said before, winter was looming.
They went back to get married, it was already winter.
Had already been winter for a while and it didn't let up to
this action were calling tough times.
For the north started off. With a quote, the Specter of
famine loomed in the north as Cragen Stark and his Lords.
Bannerman watched their food stores dwindle whilst the Nights
Watch turned back in ever-increasing number of
wildling incursions, from Beyond the Wall.
I'm the Spectre of famine. Like the Ghost of Christmas
Past. So those men took the black,
after the dance, rather than face, Lord Cragen with ice and
get executed, they found themselves facing that instead
they may have wished. They had accepted the execution,
we can guess Craig and sent what help he could.
He's a friend of the watch especially when they're being
attacked but the famine would have caused him more problems.
Would have made it difficult for him to help as much as you
probably would have wanted, then it got worse.
Winter fever emerged in the sisters sisters isn't very far
from White Harbor. Lot of traffic between the two.
So, wasn't long before it spread there and it actually spread
even farther, it got all the way to barrowton, which is Overland
in a sparsely populated region nor in the north, where people
aren't exactly out. And about a lot in Winter yet,
it's still spread which reminder how bad grayscale is going to be
a, keep blowing that horn. And as is often the case.
When a realm falls into weakness.
That's an invitation for the enemies of that realm take
action. What widespread famine was
reported in the North and the winter fever descended on
barrowton the first time it had ever traveled.
So far, inland a Raider named Silas.
The Grim LED 3000 wildlings against the wall overwhelming.
The black Brothers at Queen's Gate and spreading out across
the gift. Until Lord, Cragen Stark rode
forth, from Winterfell. Joined with the Glovers of
deepwood Motte the Flint's in Nori's of the hills and 100
Rangers from the Nights, Watch to hunt them down and put an end
to them. So note, the helpers, their the
specific ones mentioned, the Glovers, the flints and the
Nori's the Flint's. Well, there's lots of Flynn's
there, several branches of the Flynn's, but the Glovers and the
Nori's are his closest kin Nori. You know, our Nori is first
wife, Rick. On his son is a Nori half Nori.
Whatever and his mother was a Glover, so yeah.
Three thousand is a lot of free folk.
Although, it's nowhere close to like mance's Army.
That's because this was not a king-beyond-the-wall.
This is some sort of super raider guy.
On the other hand if it's that bad in the north, it was
probably really bad Beyond the Wall to.
So these three thousand Raiders were probably somewhat on the
desperate side. They probably weren't like ooh,
now's our chance to go. get all this food, now, they were like,
well, what choice do we have were dying so both sides were
probably desperate need Now, it's hard to find 3,000 men.
When the Snows are constant have to cover their tracks.
You think? Normally, there would leave a
trail and wouldn't be that hard to find 3,000 men.
Even in a place as large as the north, given the familiarity, so
many Northerners have with their region.
They would be able to tell if 3,000 men had marched through
here. Especially considering they're
going to need to eat and they're stealing that food from people
on their way. But in deep snows, it's a much
different picture. So this may have taken some time
to resolve now, on the other hand, the Starks have yet to
take advantage of Southern weakness, even though we just
pointed out that they could have Greg and start could have done a
lot of things and during the hour of the wolf that he chose
not to, he could have Push Northern Independence completely
but he's father made an oath and he made an agreement with Jason,
that's that he's not an oathbreaker, he doesn't break
deals. Like, it may have been an option
in the sense that it was a choice that could have been
made. But as far as like choices that
he would make no, may not have remotely come to mind as a
possible Choice, giving me values.
But Phil is interesting to note. This could have been a chance
for them to Break Free. The dragons were pretty much all
dead. What's that one pink dragon that
was sitting on rain is shoulder and a few riderless dragons that
were no threat to anyone? At least, not in war.
It would have been almost easy as far as Independence goes,
right? Craig and stayed engaged in
southern politics least a little bit.
He sent strongly worded letter, done when Peak, when Unwin tried
to marry his daughter to egg on the third.
Luckily, a lot of other people also objected to that because
that letter alone may not have been enough but don't
underestimate the power of a letter from Cregan Stark given
he had proven, he was willing to March South with all those men
and he had already shown. What kind of man, he was, which
by the way, If you're thinking that Kragen's a particularly
smart guy, which he might have been someone who thinks ahead a
lot when she might have been all of that Bluster, all of that
energy, all that willingness to go fight.
And I may have been partly for show.
It may have been just to remind everybody what the north was
like a permanent semi semi permanent display of why you
should not mess with us are just paint a picture.
What happens if you mess with the north?
So just really play that. Up.
Just make them look as intimidating as and now is our
chance to show the South, but we're about, we do it right.
It'll set the stage for a century or more in how they view
US. Arguably that happened.
Whether it was an intent of cretins or not, He would have
hated the news that they almost poisoned egg on the third and
then they did Poison his food, taster gaming pale hair and
almost killed, the naira Valerian as well.
Because of course, he hated the poisoning of aegon.
The second even though egg on the second was his enemy.
He thought a gan, the second should have been overthrown like
honorably like in battle rather than poison.
And thinking about maybe Unwin actually maybe being a little
worried that Reagan would return with an army.
He's not too worried about it during winter but you know, he
knows that we're not going to last forever.
There's a mystery as to why Marston Waters.
Never did end the secret Siege by force Fire and Blood opines.
Like, why didn't Marston Waters? Send his men to attack.
He could have easily overwhelmed, standoff Machado,
even though he was intimidating because there's only once and
Doc a shadow and he I'd, you know, hundreds of men.
Why didn't he do that one? Guess I have that.
I hadn't thought of until now is creegan.
He knew egg on and creegan were, at least a little bit tight, if
not a lot tight. And if he's like, hey creegan
look what they're doing to me down here.
He might come back and Martian, Waters doesn't want any of that.
No, thank you. So that might have been one of
the things that gave him pause. Might have been one of the main
things they've it might have been the main thing, didn't Fox
may be other considerations were in play like saving his own skin
from the fact that it's conspiracy was blowing up in his
face or the guys running. The conspiracy were having a
blow up on him. He wasn't, he wasn't, of course,
the one running it but he was high up there.
In 135 the winter, finally broke.
And that's when apparently Cregan borrowed from the Iron
Bay pay for new crops to plant and get started yet and to buy
enough food to get them over until that those crops would be
ready is that's obviously months away.
So add debt to the iron bank to the list of problems for another
day, we don't know how this came into play, but it if we did
know, it might tell us a little something about About, but Jon
Snow is facing having a debt of his own to the iron bank.
Well, the Nights Watch has that dad's, not Jon Snow's, personal
dead, but, you know what I mean? It's the same scenario, roughly
speaking, but if there's like, if I'm the iron bank, is there a
safer bet than the Starks for a loan.
Like they've been there in charge firm eight thousand
years? It seems, they have this
attitude about always, like it's the Lannisters in always pay
their debts according to them, but the Starks like they
remember, you know, Eternal. Like that's man, I would be all
about loaning money to the Starks about the I think I would
feel very safe with that. So the next year is 136 and
that's when aegon, the third comes of age and dismisses, Lord
man, drew some, a miniature Theory here because egg on like
creegan creegan like tagging Craig on but come now that's
their ship name. No, that's not shit.
No, no, no, no, no. Never mind, just kidding
different egg on a different tag on.
Got that. Yeah, cut that.
So those who got along real well manderley and egg on did not get
along. They didn't like each other
their different personalities. So does that mean Craig and in
Turin didn't get along. Then Wonder.
Maybe, you know, I had Turin was his vassal, you know?
He maybe got along with Desmond who was torrents father.
So maybe the Cregan Stark and porn manly Works weren't so best
of friends, but that's just a guess that's, you know, there's
plenty of reasons why they would be fine and it certainly doesn't
imply that they didn't like each other or that they had problems
something to mention. So after this we also lose track
of the cycles of winter and summer.
We know there was a winter ER, in 166 167 because there was a
Autumn where there were some really bad storms that you're
poor, but we have no idea how long it lasted it's always
coming. Winter is always coming as they
say and they are Stark. Okay, my shirt says it.
Yeah. I wonder if Reagan thought of
these other. Starks, was he pondering that
when they're sitting there in the midst of winter?
We thinking about other Starks and how they handled, winter,
hundreds or thousands of years before, or maybe he wasn't the
type to dwell on such things wolves.
Don't think about the other wolves.
Not only that, we lose the historical mention.
This is this is we're really getting foggy here.
But we do have names. We do have dates, and there's a
lot we can do with even that. So if Sarah's no is real, Well,
she probably got married because you didn't marry Jase.
We're at least she would have remarried if she if she did
marry him in secret or something, because he died.
So soon, after I doubt, she just stayed a widow her whole life.
Well, that is possible and it does happen.
So who are the daughters he had with blackout, Sarah?
Dang, it spelled differently. So there's Sarah with two r's.
Sarah with one are Sarah with Annie and to ours, Sara, Ella
and serenella. They're all names that appear
throughout the books is awesome. Oh gosh, I knew I was forgetting
one. So you're right.
It's a lot of Sarah's y'all and there and the real world,
there's SAR aah to which there isn't a version of that here.
I don't think, I don't think there's an aah in Westeros, but
George is one still. He can use if he wants another
Sarah. You can also do to ours or yeah.
And you, So there was another Alice so that's not a, not an
ally but kind of an ally Alice. So there's an ALICE Stark there,
then a Reyes Stark that one's almost certainly an Easter egg.
Not only is Rhea an anagram for Aria is the same for letters to
some different order but Rhea is one of George's assistance and
in career illustrator in her own.
Right? Excellent person.
We know her rare golden. Yeah, his minions and she did
her latest project is the I think maybe she doesn't Since
this, but she did two clerks promise, Clark.
Clark Kent. Oh yeah.
That's that's related. That was not a song.
I was working on the ice dragon stuff.
Yeah. I was thinking of starport a
star for. Yeah.
Anyways, yeah. So she's got a lot of great
projects. She's awesome.
And almost certainly this is a nod to her.
Then there's a fourth daughter named Mariah now, we do anything
about these kids. Anything about these daughters?
Maybe they were like their mother, maybe some of them were,
maybe some of them were tough, like black like that, you know,
like like that maybe they were real Stark women or maybe have
some of them are more courtly, like, Santa, who knows?
You got four of them, there's all sorts of possibilities.
Maybe one of them who had a husband whose house would be
staunch for them as Lady of Winterfell.
The some had designs through their why.
Right? Ambitious husband, who knows,
you know what I find interesting is like, the to Mariah's that we
here. Like, those are two extremes.
Yeah, cartels in the Stark. That's true.
Like, so far for that name to my name is its.
I mean, technically now it's with and Y for the dornish
version but it wasn't always. Yeah.
And so, anyways, I've since interesting, you're right.
Yeah. That is a curiosity, is a name
that really just transcends the borders, I suppose.
Yeah. But we don't know anyone else
like Alice, like what does seem to appear everywhere?
Yeah, it does seem pretty well, I'm does.
It doesn't seem to appear everywhere.
It's like a in Far, Northern Our South and probably just haven't
met any that appear in between. Yeah, that's true.
We don't know. But yeah.
So we don't know any of those four daughters marry nor when
black Ali died or how we do. Nobody been Blackwood.
Lived a particularly long life. So that's her nephew.
So he may have come north for her funeral since he came for
her wet or to pay his respects and of like that.
Since they had a good connection, the Starks in the
Blackwood specialness are obviously so good chance.
He went up there for her funeral.
Cool. Now if he did, marry his
daughters to Northern Lords which is the most likely
destination for them, we could guess at who he might have done
that with who we might have made those arrangements with.
Now, of course, this these are just guesses.
We have no idea. Whether there were marriage
marriageable boys or men available.
So pure guesswork Nori though, just keeping it with the
families. He was already had strong ties
to Glover Flint since they helped against Silas.
The Grim Grim black would maybe more blackwood's could have
gotten involved as they already had that sort of Channel open
sir, when for obvious reasons, being close and having the
friendships he had with Lord, cerwyn manderley, just for
politics and, you know, keeping it tight with the manderlys
that's important because at some point Rick on Young, Rick on
Mary's, Jane mandrel, who was probably a daughter of Lord
Desmond, but could have been a daughter of Turin.
Italy said Desmond had been Lord throughout the dance, but he
died in 132 from that winter fever, that we said that went
around I saw the pack of Ice and Fire was still unfulfilled by
this point but Greek and couldn't wait forever to find a
bride for his are but that still is interesting.
Must have been a decision of some point.
Like yeah we're not going to ever get that Targaryen
princess. Are we have?
You wonder like when he finally gave up on that or like the
manager was probably like yeah Jane manly right here by getting
a. You don't get on this train.
Now we're going to have her marry some other Northern Lord
you know. So I wonder how have he just
Dangled that sounds like look, they're not gonna get a
Targaryen princess. Yo, hahaha do this.
So creaking eventually has granddaughter see how this
marriage Sansa, you know, he's like, he's like, I know
something else that has scales. Only half of them have a taste,
like it's a little more details in a scale that would want to
marry three prongs on a claw. Three prongs on a try.
I said, yeah, three prongs has the Trident.
Yeah, yeah, so Santa and Serena are granddaughters from this
marriage of rickon and Jane. And really, we don't know when
they were born either. Although we do know when they
were born before because it was before the conquest of Dorne is
unfortunately in the year 157 or maybe 150 a trick and is killed
mirror mirror sunspear and one of the final battles of Dorne
Darren mentioned him, King daeron the young dragon mentions
him conquests Dorn like writes about his exploits as if it was
significant. So he was probably right there
with him in the Dragon Knight. You know, fighting with all the
other, like, highfalutin Nobles. Again, this is a possible
landing spot for when Craig and himself might have Gould aemon,
the dragonknight and have some sort of being upset about what
happened here. How this was handled at Google
for honor and just pure guessing is also open to question of who
becomes the air. There's a long way to question
of how the north handles issues like this.
We don't know how they did it. We've never had a lady of
Winterfell so it's pretty hard to Guess that they do follow
straight primogeniture, they probably do Passover with or
they have passed over with at least many times if not every
time, so we don't know who the air was with sassa, the air, she
would be under Southern laws, but I don't know if she was even
if she wasn't her hand would become the most desired in the
north. If she wasn't married because
you could claim Winterfell through her or throw her
children, if not directly because she's already the lady
of Winterfell. the ambitious folks would be all over this,
but Cragen's, not dying anytime soon.
So whatever plans they made weren't going anywhere because
heirs are still heirs. As long as the Lord is alive and
much, is going to change. In the meantime that ships, the
ground around that whole succession situation.
So when Rick on died, that was 157. 158.
So he'd be Forty Nine, ish years old, it's possible.
Black Ali had passed before this.
Again we have no idea. It's the foggiest portion of the
timeline. We have some idea of what was
going on in King's Landing on a basic level.
For example, Darren's Reign was short and then bail or took over
It's long been a theory that Baylor's policies were going to
cause problems for the North and is possible.
Problems is putting it mildly. We'd really want to know what
Craig and thought about all that is another possibility for a
name in versus Cregan, dual here.
Over northern versus Southern religious policies.
It could be really rooted in that issue.
Rooted being a very good word used for where would purposes?
Yes, and basically Baylor is peaceful and pacifistic as he
was Could have been a real problem for the north because of
all his anti non faith of the seven stuff like he wanted to
replace the Ravens, right? With white doves or whatever.
Like that's a disaster waiting to happen.
That alone restricts communication with the north.
It would have heard them more than it would have heard other
regions because they can still carry letters from shorter
distances and still communicate a little bit.
But cutting off. That's a lot of communication
co-op in the north, and that's only one.
Small problem, that of many that Baylor has, kind of Maybe not
intentionally but driving up, anger, and fear about tree
worshipping and the old gods and stuff.
And that can have violent side effects of people attacking
Northerners for their beliefs and stuff like that.
And what did he think of the maidens in the tower?
Jay sign that bag of ice and fire Jason was his uncle Baylor.
Meaning it half-uncle technically but it's the
Targaryen side they have in common.
That's the part that probably matters.
If you're not going to marry any of those sisters yourself, bro.
Why not fulfill your agreements, send?
One of those princesses North imagined and of the Define
married to Craig and Stark but yeah, I mean, no, no way.
Baylor would have ever have suffered Heathen marriage.
No, he wasn't gonna do that, but I'm trying to marry him out
here. Yeah, he's not drunk.
Did anyone? Yeah, exactly.
Download one or not, someone who doesn't worship the face but
from creaking perspective or maybe some other Northern Lords
who were aware of that promised they'd be like hey what's the
deal like you had this promise? You're not marrying.
Anyone like fulfill your promise man.
And of course like some of this theorizing is perhaps a complete
mess because they in the defiant marrying, Cragen could be
impossible because black Ali might've still been alive.
You know we have no idea. But this is yet another thing
that could have dual Dover. It's like, you promised to
surprise never delivered it. I want to duel for honoring.
At some point. During this his name went from
Wolf of the north to Old Man of the north.
So don't know when you know is again, I'm not even old wolf of
the North Pole doubles of the door, but at some point, black
Ali did die. We don't know how long he went
without a wife. It may have been something he
decided to address quickly because he doesn't have a son or
something that he didn't address quickly because he loved black
alley and was not ready to remarry.
So as a real Duty versus love question here, I suppose
Potential Beauty versus love question here.
Whatever happened. Whatever time passed, or didn't
that third wife was line Nara star?
So, was he trying to Father a new male Heir?
Or was he trying to have company?
Or was it political reasons? You can see why there would be
political reasons. Let's refer back to the earliest
part of the episode. When I mentioned her Leonora and
her family connection, she is a descendant of Brandon, the
boisterous, the second Lord of Winterfell.
Meaning second Lord after Tora knelt, not know laughter,
Brandon the Builder. So this marriage would unite two
branches of how start so that you can see why that would be a
political move to reduce the chance of civil Strife uniting
the Starks means there's less likely to be squabbling over
Winterfell after the eventual death of friggin which is still
a while away as it turned out. But they didn't know that even
Cregan probably was like, man, I'm I'm still alive.
It might not last but I'm still going and he was clearly still
capable. Of fathering children.
It seems it seems like he was told very capable of plenty of
stuff but it would have maybe seemed likely to those observing
that he might not live much longer because well it's just
the way of the world. The creaking would also have his
own personal experience with People squabbling over
Winterfell, it happened to him. Thanks, Uncle Bernard, but, and
he has no son of his own, so he could very easily see.
Problems in the future. If you didn't take care of that,
if he didn't set things aright, but Winterfell back on a path.
With a stable are stable succession situation.
Well, he's putting his own house and the north on the road to
exactly what happened in the South.
He lived through the dance of the direwolves, the dance of the
dragons. And here he is staring down the
barrel of another simple situation.
Very similar to those two because of his own, lack of
established succession, but that did change underline.
Our For new Stark boys and another daughter named Leon.
Ironically that's too many sons too many son.
I mean I bring you right back to the original problem of too many
claimants to winner from. Yeah, maybe just two sons would
have been better but hey you can't control these things.
Exactly. Well, I guess you can but he
didn't control these things. They kept popping out Starks so
none of them took the black, which is interesting in and of
itself. Usually, excess Starks you see
that happen. They sort of take it upon
themselves, dude. T.
Right? Starks are big on duty.
Very often to do what's necessary to Tamp down those
odds of Civil War. I mean engine did that quite
clearly or apparently for the exact reasons, we don't know,
but he did. He took the black at a pretty
young age when once and Rob was born, when there was another
Stark out there, to take the place of net, if anything bad
would happen. So, it's a little peculiar that
none of these Starks took black and it is part of why there was
so much trouble. It's not clear if this reflects
on creegan or Lenora, more or both, but you don't get the
impression that these were of the Lone Wolf dies, the pack
survives attitude, like that was not passed on to them.
Seems that might be a knock-on craigan, or Lagana or both.
It is said that after cragen's death, they truly lamented the
death of rickon at sunspear do to help tumultuous the following
error was like they were lamented it at the time, but
they like real lamented it you know, 30 some years later.
Because of all the problems again like boy, if that Rick on
who we all love, so much, who was a great singer and a great
warrior, it would have been fine, you know, but no and and
it's so compelling but we don't know what a lot of the tumult
was going to be a great story for another time.
Get it. The Suns have colorful names,
kind of remind me of the sons of Ragnar Lothbrok from Not just
the TV but you know the real stories that might not be real.
He's semi-legendary semi-mythical there's jonel.
One eye who married Sansa the daughter of Ric on so whatever
succession issues there might have been this may have been
solved by marrying. Those two halves of break-ins
family so that's a pretty incestuous marriage.
First Arc. You mean we've seen first
cousin? Marriage is before, but this is
a half-brother half-sister marriage right here, right?
Yeah, or no. No, it's a, it's an, it's a
sorry, it's a nice half-uncle marriage.
Yeah, still pretty close. That's a lot closer than cousin
even first. Cousin, big question is did
create an arranged this marriage.
We're going to win are arranged this marriage.
I think probably because so many more Sons followed he was
probably alive but maybe not next was edrick.
Who also married richens daughter?
The other ones, Serena Serena had first married John.
I'm birthing. That was perhaps arranged by
Craig, perhaps all of these bird.
But jaw number died, and so edrick and Serena had four
children crais guard and Turin. Who were twin Sons regard.
Okay. And Turin are Rana, and are ago.
Now are Rana married, osric. Ambrose was coming like a make
good for the jaw. Number marriage didn't work out
and Arabelle married. Robarts Irwin, who may have been
You know, more this Ricans friendship with the sermons is
Neverland related, that and Arabelle and Robards Irwin had
at least one child, which may have been born before Creek and
died. So, a great-grandchild for
Creek. Yeah, most most restaurants he
don't live to see great-grandchildren.
What's an additional wrinkle here though?
Is that edrick was the only one of brigands four Sons here who
did not inherit Winterfell nor did his children inherit, so,
what the heck happened there? Because it went past.
Jonna laughter jonalyn, Sansa didn't have children and Donald
died. It passed Abarth again, who was
the third son, Barth black sword?
So, how did Barth get it over all those other people?
Something smells fishy here, it sounds like a usurpation.
Or some and Barth was was killed in a rebellion, which may have
happened because he didn't have a strong.
Hold on the North. Mmm.
Black sword, sounds maybe a little villainous, you know,
maybe like he earned that nickname for doing something
bad, Brandon was next and Brandon is the one that's all
passes through. He marries a different Alice
karstark, obviously a different Alice.
Karstark were talking 100 years prior to the one in the song of
ice and fire. But it's yeah, there's a few
Alice's and a few Alice. Karstarks apparently Brandon has
and Alice have three children together.
Brandon has a fourth child before marrying Ellis karstark
named Lionel. Snow with someone named Willa FN
another Willa thrown in there with a snow, but the three
trueborn children were Rodwell bear on and RC Rodwell did not
grow up to be a porn star but probably should have.
Yeah, bear on is the one dying from a wound suffered by the by
fighting the ironborn when the she-wolves of Winterfell is
supposed to be starting that which is a unfinished.
Tentatively titled episode of dunk and egg.
Lots of interesting stories there and they may go beyond the
life of of creegan now. Brandon was born in 1883 Revenue
at the very earliest so he might've been born later than
that. 23 is the earliest I could have been born which tells us
Cragen lived at least that long or at least long enough least
2182. He could have potentially died
before Brandon porn but he least live long enough to impregnate
Lenora with Brandon So if he died, then he would have been
75. But he probably lived beyond
that. And again, Brandon would
probably born ready. So that means his father and
children in the 70s. If not later.
But since bear on was dying at the beginning of she-wolves of
Winterfell Brandon had to have at least been old enough to
Father, a son and for that son to grow up and face the ironborn
in battle. But you probably do at least
until he was at least 16 or something.
Very earliest. So that doesn't give us a whole
lot of room to work with. And as I said, beginning, He did
not live to the year 200 because jonel was definitely Lord before
the end of the century. Unless of course, you know Craig
and might have abdicated and taking the black like jeor
Mormont. There's always a small chance of
that. But that's a guest, no no reason
to suspect that other than it happens occasionally what that
tells us those creeks and lived through the reign of egg on the
force. So all these things about seeing
the signs of rebellions, seeing the seeds planted and being able
to interpret it properly. This older man, Man, who's seen
it all his wisdom gained Through the Ages seen lots of civil
conflict and the seeds that are planted that eventually grow
into that conflict. I think he saw it coming, I
think he did stuff, I don't know what but maybe that's why the
Starks have no record of appearing in the black firebugs.
Maybe Craig was like look ya'll I see this coming.
Stay out of it, on the other hand, all this tumult in the
north. They may have just been too busy
with their own stuff going on. You may not have been able to
participate but man what would a Cragen have thought of aegon the
fourth as much as you like egg on the 3rd and the 4th has all
these values will be no one likes.
Aegon, the fourth really For other ambitious people that can
use him for their own means. But I mean at the end of our run
through under the dragons, 52 129 we talked about how like,
out of all the Starks there was just no known incidents of like,
drunkards or lots of sleeping around lots of bass, there's
definitely some but not lots of but nothing remotely on the
level of aegon. The fourth though, I mean that
guy's in his own time he almost puts Robert Baratheon to shame
So what would they think? I mean, tolerated Roberts,
Behavior. Sort of what wood creaking think
freaking to know Ned. You know, he's a lot different
than that. He ruled a long time and saw
lived a lot, much longer life saw a lot more Civil Wars, a lot
more children. Just so many things.
You know, you wouldn't want his children fighting in those words
for the targaryens, you know, what's the point?
What did it, what good did it? Do them to march South back?
And well, got him a wife, some children, but that didn't
happen. That didn't happen.
Happened to him because the warlike they could have happened
but for other reasons, right? So Civil War happened in the
dance because of negligence, the saris didn't do enough to stop
it and did things that allowed it to happen.
He wasn't trying to set that up though, wasn't his goal egg on
the fourth Bell. I hey if it wasn't one to
negligence it may have been intentionally made been like
yeah, I'm setting this all up. I want them to fight over it
when I'm gone. On Alexander the Great kind of
did that too. So maybe history isn't sure.
So, what's his legacy? It's difficult to get a handle
on him because His later life would be what?
People remember even more because, and how he left the nor
what shape he left. And when he died is going to be
more remembered than what he didn't lose 20 because his life
was so long if those things were close together.
They may all be remembered again but given the bias we saw from
the Mesa resources towards Northerners in general to the
true telling haha May yet to come maybe Yet to Come yeah it
certainly was laid to rest in the crypts of Winterfell of
course. Yes, but there's still so much,
we don't know in between there hasn't been another Stark name
Creek and since that we know of which is a little peculiar but
there was a Kree guard and I don't know.
They're just like that name. Kind of sucks.
We like the dude, but not the name.
So I wouldn't read too much into that but it is Is possible, he's
not remembered so fondly, he's a towering historical figure, but
in that fog that's second half of his life, maybe he made some
regrettable decisions or unlucky ones.
Maybe his decision-making is blamed for or legitimately at
fault for the tumult that followed maybe he made.
Bad decisions, maybe remarrying was a bad idea.
Me people said don't do that and he did it.
Anyway, maybe people told him to stop having sons and he did it
anyway. Maybe it's just all dorky name.
Hahaha. It fits what little we do know
because. Yeah, because things did go
badly so you could see people blaming them for It, Maybe not,
maybe the mean the some of those seeds were planted.
Well, before that, no, There can be problems when there are lots
of claimants mixed with uncertainty, especially when
uncertainty can be fabricated by that.
I mean like how the maesters are our source for a lot of what we
know in creegan and it it's filtered through their own bias
may not be as accurate. So George left, a lot of this
open for now. You can see how rich it is,
though it's extremely rich. It's extremely deep soil.
He's planted is full of nutrients in the narrative
plants that will grow from this. This are strong even if you know
we don't get them for a while or the sourcing is different.
He doesn't have to lay a lot of detail for the groundwork to be
strong. Detail comes later.
Like a lot of topics we cover. There will be a day when it's
worth. Revisiting thanks to these gaps
being filled in this context being added blood and fire would
be a huge one to fill in a lot more of this.
He should be in most of the book half of it, I guess.
Yeah because it'll go from 130 till about Like 135 136 till
283? Yeah, be in about happening.
That'd be great. Can't wait.
But whatever. The future brings for this.
Fandom will be there. One last note, I had no idea
where to place because it's not dating but it works pretty well
as a mystery footnote a good thing to leave things on a
certain Meister Kenneth's. Was it Winterfell?
At some point during Lord, Kragen's rain, he studied the
bongs and barrows and Graves of the first men and that included
the discovery or perhaps rediscovery of giants bones
among them. The book he wrote was called
passages of the dead. That's a pickup.
Yeah, yes, you're right. It's actually very good and the
written word passages. Yeah, that's pretty anyway
houses. Yeah, yes.
Yeah, exactly. It's like a was actually about a
plan on a few levels. It's very clever in my book, but
for Meister. Kennett.
Yeah. So was this controversial like
this book in the north? I mean, I don't know if
northerner, Too keen on dudes, digging around and old grapes.
I don't know if that would be a popular thing but Cregan allowed
it. So I wonder why I wonder if he
thought there was information to be gleaned.
What was he curious about? Did he specifically asked for
this or did the measure just say, hey, I want to study this
brigands like that. Go for it bro.
Or was Cragen actually interested in the results or
perhaps, he even commissioned the study in the first place
worse. Though.
Think of egrets claim that searching old tune Teams for the
whole Horn of winter Unleashed, quote-unquote shades on the
world. Foreshadowing, or did something
similar happened here? I mean, Others weren't Unleashed
in Graves. The first men of barrows, you
know, that's that's south of the wall by a long way.
It's not the point, but it it is relevant to that, it is related
to that. It's a reminder, that the very
least. There are Graves all over the
north, whether that's meant to be symbolic foreshadowing, or
little both. It could be just consequences
implied for disturbing these old bones.
Yeah, it may not have finished their passages yet.
Okay folks that is our episode. Let's have a trivia answer for
y'all. Me question again was what title
is held by the person. Cersei learned the definition of
valonqar from Their name was in this episode and that name is
SEPTA serenella. That's right.
SEPTA Sarah. No, it's whole are time but no
one guessed it. Mmm, there's a pretty hard one.
That's is one of the most about that.
Most people got was like amazed herceptin.
Yeah. I think they said subdomains and
SEPTA. They said septon and yep.
That was only a guess. And they were like, still
contemplating be should. People should have made me
realize that sir, she'd be more likely to talk to a scepter than
acceptance. Yeah, girl.
Yeah. But that was very tough.
I kind of didn't expect. I figured is a good chance node
at that, but that's part of the fun.
I'll make them hard, sometimes make them.
Well I ever make them easy, make less hard some next week, free
city of cohort or city of blood, Magic City of Valyrian steel
city, where the unsullied came to fame, you know, they don't
originate their City Once sacked by the golden company.
Lots to say, they're positioned in the deep dark forest with
cohorts. A lot of fun, a lot of
world-building in that episode and we will see you then.
Also mentioned in this episode. If you want to stay immersed in
the history of Westeros. The crypts of Winterfell is a
great one for this topic. So is the hour of the wolf if
you really want to stay with creegan and of course, the both
under the dragons episodes, keep you?
Well, versed in how Stark the first one covers the period of a
see one Desi. 52nd, one picks right up, where it left off
going from 51 to 129. So lots of material there,
that's over six hours of Starkey.
Goodness there for you. And of course, we have plenty of
other topics that have more to do with the Starks or nothing to
do with Starks. Take your pick and enjoy, thanks
to anyone who supports us on patreon or Spotify.
Thanks to Nina for the notes and great takes.
We always discuss a lot of these things ahead of time.
Helps me get my thoughts in order Joey, Jesse and brand.
Thanks to you all for the music. Both intro, outro and various
forms. We've had a lot of different
takes on our From music. So great to have what a
blessing, Michael Clarke fell a shout-out.
To you, our friend maps that she behind us.
Almost every episode our his doing, get them player talks
about 80 that's with AK and Annex.
Oh yeah, I'm fine spelling. Yes, thanks as well.
To buy coal for the original for our other video intros.
Well, I've got so many video, intros and music.
Intros to shout out ninja. Do you see today is the one my
pleasure, that's right. And we'll see you all next week
for more. You know, what to do in the
meantime, I highly encourage. As always you to Valar reread
us,