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Despite his relative youth, King
Baylor had ruled for 10 years. 

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Those who lived under his rule 
experienced a reign unlike any 

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other before or since. 
The unique figure in unusual 

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times who came to the throne in 
part thanks to the death of his 

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brother. 
And that brother had passed at 

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the age of only 18. 
Baylor's death remains a bit of 

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a mystery. 
In some ways, it's not 

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surprising. 
After all, the man starved 

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himself regularly. 
On the other hand, this is a man

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who survived walking all the way
to Dorn and back and all those 

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Vipers. 
On the other other hand, there's

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a lot of reason to believe he 
was murdered. 

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That the starvation made for a 
convincing cover story. 

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And it may have been his hand 
who did the deed, His own uncle 

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Viserys who became king after 
him. 

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But why would Viserys, who ruled
capably his hand for 20 ish 

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years, kill his nephew after so 
much time? 

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Did Viserys become ambitious 
later in life It's or did 

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Baylor's policy decisions 
threatened to destabilize the 

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realm? 
Was there a compelling reason 

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rather than ambition? 
Yes, there is evidence Baylor 

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was on a downward slope with 
regards to his mental health. 

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Some of his decisions were 
downright insane, and he wasn't 

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a fan of other religions. 
Now, kinslaying is one of the 

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worst crimes in Westeros, but if
Viserys thought he was 

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preventing a civil war or a holy
war of sorts, well, that's a lot

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more interesting than regicide 
for reasons of personal gain. 

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However, Viserys is not the only
possible culprit, so we'll go 

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over the other suspects. 
But this is not a whodunit 

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episode only, It's just part of 
the episode, and not just 

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because his death was maybe not 
even a murder at all. 

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Though 10 years is a substantial
reign. 

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Arguably Baylor has had a bigger
impact on Westeros since his 

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death as compared to while he 
was alive. 

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Baylor is one of the most 
frequently mentioned kings. 

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Honestly, if we counted, he 
might even be the most 

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mentioned. 
His influence goes well beyond 

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frequent name drops, though, of 
course. 

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He's the example of restraint, 
holiness, forbearance, 

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forgiveness, piety, you name it.
Other related concepts included.

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His legacy is of the utmost 
importance in the history of 

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Westeros, both due to scope and 
uniqueness. 

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And we get a bonus murder 
mystery to go along with it. 

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We've got all that and more on 
this episode of History of 

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Westeros Podcast. 
Hello and welcome back. 

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It's part three of our series on
Baylor. 

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Each episode works as a stand 
alone. 

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And honestly, I think this one 
might be the most interesting 

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because of what I just said in 
the intro, because of the long 

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lasting impact that came after 
his life, which is what we're 

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focused on. 
And just like the other two 

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episodes, we've got our 
returning guest, Nina Krusling 

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to join us to discuss Baylor, 
our resident Baylor expert, 

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worldwide Baylor expert, I would
say. 

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And we are going to have a lot 
of fun with this one, don't you 

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think? 
I would agree. 

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I would agree. 
You know, This is why, This is 

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why I can only be on the show 
every like four years, because 

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what I. 
Have is ideas? 

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Turns into from 1 episode. 
A mega series of three episodes.

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It's not a light commitment, you
know. 

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But it's fun. 
I you know, to it's, it's always

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fun to talk to talk Baylor so. 
It is indeed. 

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And we've got some good stuff 
for you all today. 

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I'm going to set things up. 
We've got some a little bit of 

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context and some world building 
and then we'll dive into the 

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questions, which will be a 
series of unleashing of Nina on 

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various subtopics and that's 
going to be a lot of fun. 

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So I'll, I'll set her up, she'll
knock them down, and we'll see 

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what Baylor has for us. 
In Part 2, we talked about 

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Baylor's rule as king. 
For 10 years, he reigned. 

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He made it pretty clear he was 
not going to listen to anyone 

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but himself when it came to his 
decrees. 

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Well, According to him, he was 
listening to the seven. 

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But the seven, you know, they 
got a little stranger as time 

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went, coincidentally, as he also
got stranger. 

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So go figure. 
His reign had been controversial

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from the beginning because he 
had been doing this shaping of 

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the realm into what he believed 
the gods wanted from the moment 

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he took the the crown. 
The seven wanted him to make 

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peace with Thorn, so he walked 
all that long way to do it and 

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his brothers war, make peace, 
make good, make amends. 

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And the seven wanted him to keep
his sisters from tempting the 

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men around him, including 
himself, so he imprisoned them. 

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The maiden of all these things, 
the burning of the books of 

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people like Mushroom, A Septon 
Barth, all these things. 

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Baylor may not have been 
wielding steel like his brother 

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Daron, but his will was just as 
iron. 

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He was just as determined, he 
was just as proud. 

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He had no compunctions and no 
self doubt. 

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It seems now Baylor wasn't the 
only figure in his government. 

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Even if he believed he was the 
agent of the Seven, he still had

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helpers all 10 years of his 
reign. 

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His uncle Viserys was his Hand 
by 171. 

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That Viserys was 50 years old, 
however, and had been handed to 

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three kings in a row over the 
course of three or four decades.

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So he has just super long term 
part of government and at the 

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top. 
So for any Westerosi aristocrat,

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this is significant. 
Very few people have a career 

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like Viserys and that's what 
makes some of the questions in 

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this episode so very 
interesting. 

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He had both the experience of 
ruling and the experience in 

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seeing things go wrong. 
He had been around during the 

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dance, he had been around during
dare on the 1st attempted 

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conquest of Dorin, which 
succeeded initially and then 

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collapse. 
So he had this has this 

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perspective on the long term, on
war and peace, and well, he 

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would have opinions on what 
Baylor was doing and what impact

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it would have on the realm in 
turn. 

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But in 171, Baylor was only 27 
years old, even though that's 

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pretty young. 
That's 10 year reign, more than 

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double the reign of Deron, but 
not, of course, not nearly as 

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long as the 26 year reign of 
Aegon the Third or the 55 years 

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under Jaharius the First. 
So he had a shot at those 

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numbers, catching some of those 
records, so to speak. 

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But of course, he ends up well 
short of them given what 

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actually happened. 
So people probably looked 

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forward to this, this ten, 20-30
more years of his reign. 

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So it was very surprising, very 
probably very sad for a lot of 

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people. 
A lot of nobles might have 

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actually privately been like, 
whew, while a lot of commoners 

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in huge numbers would have wept 
and been upset and maybe doubted

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what really happened and would 
have wondered and, and, and tore

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their clothing and all the 
things that you do when you're 

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when you're in mourning the end 
of the rain. 

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Before we get to Baylor's death,
though, let's talk about the 

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last year or so of his life 
because it includes the factors 

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that might have led to his 
potential murder. 

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This is when his fasting was 
really getting out of hand. 

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And though it may not have been 
the main trigger, it, it's hard 

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to be rational when you're 
starving. 

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00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,280
And he wasn't the most rational 
guy in the 1st place. 

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He had visions when he fasted, 
and that's part of why he kept 

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fasting. 
He thought that it was bringing 

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00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,720
him closer to the gods, and he 
was a man who wanted to be close

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to the gods. 
He wanted to be holy. 

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00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,840
So it's actually kind of logical
when you look at it that way, 

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even though that it's also not 
logical at all in another 

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00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,520
looking at it another way. 
So in this state of mind, he 

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ruled the Seven Kingdoms. 
So when he wasn't busy praying, 

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he was getting visions born of 
hunger. 

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So people had to be noticing 
this escalation, right. 

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What do you suppose, Nina, The 
the mood at court was after 10 

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years of this and and it clearly
was getting worse. 

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And he he was clearly doing 
things a little weirder and and 

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escalating. 
Yeah. 

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What do you think? 
I think it's it's. 

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So interesting to think about 
this sort of last year or last 

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period of Baylor's life and his 
reign because. 

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To me, I have to think. 
That there was this sense at 

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core of. 
Unease and maybe even anxiety 

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00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,800
about the future. 
And I think. 

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00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,280
To some extent, we can compare 
that to the end of Viserys the 

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00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,720
First Train, although I think in
other ways the two periods were 

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very, very different. 
But what I think is so similar 

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00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:24,440
between the end of Viserys the 
First Train and the end of 

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Bandler's reign is this question
of a succession. 

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Who's going to come next when 
the king dies? 

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We see this very obviously in 
Viserys the first reign with the

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Black and Green factions. 
Viserys had created a succession

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00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,840
conflict that he didn't want to 
solve. 

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He set up both his eldest son. 
And his eldest daughter to have 

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very colorable claims to the 
Iron Throne, creating the black 

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00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,200
and green factions. 
And as his reign progressed and 

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eventually, you know, sort of 
came to a close, what those 

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00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,080
factions became is not just more
vehement in terms of believing 

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that their respective candidates
were the rightful layers of the 

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00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,040
Iron Throne, but also more 
violent toward each other. 

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00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,720
And so everybody except the king
himself can see there is going 

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to be a conflict at his death. 
There might even be a civil war,

171
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,520
which, of course, there is. 
At his death, neither faction is

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going to step back and let the 
other one go. 

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00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,360
They're going to fight over the 
Iron Throne. 

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00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:28,800
And I think to some extent, that
sort of feeling and attitude may

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00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,680
have been present at the end of 
Baylor's reign as well. 

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00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,400
Obviously, we don't see 
something as formalized as the 

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00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,280
black and green factions at the 
end of Baylor's reign, but I 

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00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,920
think what his contemporaries 
and courtiers would have seen is

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00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,840
a real question over the 
succession and a number of 

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00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,400
imperfect candidates. 
You know, Baylor had made it 

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00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,560
very clear when he returned from
Dorn. 

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00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,760
I'm not going to have children 
of my body. 

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00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,280
And unlike when Baylor himself 
succeeded, there were no more 

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00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,720
brothers. 
There were no more sons of Aegon

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00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,960
the Third. 
Who would be the natural 

186
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,720
successors to take over if he 
died childless? 

187
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,240
And so the question remains, 
well, who comes next? 

188
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,040
His closest relatives are his 
three sisters. 

189
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,200
But these are not perfect 
candidates #1 because. 

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00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,760
Patriarchy is going to. 
Patriarchy in Westeros and these

191
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,280
are young women, I and not just 
young women, you know, 

192
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,440
objectively, but Ramiro's 
granddaughters again and again 

193
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,760
and again. 
I mentioned we're still in the 

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00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,360
shadow of the Dance. 
This is the first generation of 

195
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,400
Targaryens that are born after 
the Dance. 

196
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,680
So the idea of a woman sitting 
in the Iron Throne, it's a hot 

197
00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,840
button topic to say the least. 
It's not something that's going 

198
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,840
to be very simply, very widely 
accepted. 

199
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:49,360
And on top of that, what also 
puts these princesses at 

200
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,880
disadvantage is that they've 
been quite literally imprisoned 

201
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,920
for 10 years. 
Rainera at least had the 

202
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,880
advantage of being able to go 
around the realm to show herself

203
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,960
as the Sarah's heir, to make 
marriage alliances for herself 

204
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,880
and her children. 
These princesses can't do that. 

205
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,920
Dana and Raina and Elena, they 
can't go around the realm and 

206
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,080
say I should be Baylor's heir. 
They can't make marriage 

207
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,720
alliances for themselves with 
powerful aristocrats. 

208
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,800
They can't have children with 
powerful aristocrats who are 

209
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,080
going to be seen as Baylor's 
successors. 

210
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,200
And that puts them at a 
disadvantage. 

211
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,920
They don't have that sort of 
popular, strong, noble support 

212
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,280
that's going to carry them on to
the iron groan if and when the 

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00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,840
king dies. 
But if it's not his sisters who 

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00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,360
succeed, well, then who should 
it be? 

215
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,840
You know, we talked, I, I 
believe in in the second part 

216
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,120
about maybe Baylor had looked at
young Prince Daron, the son of 

217
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,640
the eventual Igonian worthy 
himself, eventually Daron the 

218
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,880
second as a future king as his 
possible error. 

219
00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,160
But again, I think this would 
have been seen as at best 

220
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,800
imperfect. 
Yes, Daron is a male. 

221
00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:01,000
Yes, Daron is a Prince of a male
lion, but he's also the son and 

222
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,640
grandson of Princess and male 
Lion Princess of House 

223
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,760
Targaryen. 
Is there going to be popular, 

224
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,400
widespread support for a Prince 
succeeding a king when his 

225
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,760
father and grandfather have just
as good, if not better claims 

226
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,400
than his own? 
Not to mention, of course, 

227
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,960
whatever lingering Westerosi 
xenophobia exists against 

228
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,680
Daron's marriage to Mariah 
Martel and his children that 

229
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,240
he's starting to have with 
Mariah. 

230
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,760
So again, this, this is a series
of very imperfect candidates. 

231
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,560
No one's sure exactly who's 
going to take over there. 

232
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,840
There is no rule book here. 
And so I think that would have 

233
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,560
been leaving the sense of unease
for everyone as to, well, what's

234
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:44,680
going to happen. 
And there wasn't much they could

235
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:47,400
seemingly do about it. 
As we discussed, Baylor was 

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00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,120
going to Baylor, and that meant,
well, not caving in on any issue

237
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,400
he didn't want to cave in on. 
So for 10 years, he didn't name 

238
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,880
a successor. 
There was no obvious successor, 

239
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:05,040
and life carried on with this 
sort of anxious well, Sword of 

240
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,400
Baylor. 
A weird metaphor for a guy who 

241
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,000
didn't use swords, but the point
is the same. 

242
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,760
And This is why it's so similar 
to the layout for the Dance of 

243
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,560
the Dragons, which is that there
was an issue of succession and a

244
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:21,120
lot of people saw this coming. 
Another example is that Dana the

245
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,080
Defiant had a pregnancy with 
Aegon, who became Aegon the 

246
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,720
Unworthy. 
She might have seen the writing 

247
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,960
on the wall and known who might 
have been very likely to be king

248
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,240
in the future and thus had a 
child with him and was looking 

249
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,320
ahead, thus setting up the Black
Fire Rebellions. 

250
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,840
Which is of course a great 
parallel to the Dance of the 

251
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,080
Dragons. 
It's a big Targaryen civil war 

252
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,480
set up by multiple branches 
after a failed succession. 1 

253
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,360
pretty major difference though 
is what we just mentioned before

254
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:54,240
that, which was that it was kind
of a surprise that Baylor died, 

255
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:59,000
unlike Viserys whose health was 
very visibly declining slowly 

256
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,400
and surely. 
And he was also much older. 

257
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,040
So there was both health and 
age. 

258
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,800
Whereas for Baylor, maybe there 
was some health questions 

259
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,640
because of the way he treated 
himself, but the guy was only 

260
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,360
27. 
So for the most part, that's a 

261
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,720
big, big difference, right? 
The the the suddenness of it 

262
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,200
versus the slow decline. 
Oh, absolutely. 

263
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,320
And it's, and it's not just the 
suddenness, you know, one of one

264
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,640
of the aspects of the saris's 
ring you bring up, the saris was

265
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,760
on a decline for the better part
of 10 years before his death. 

266
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,000
He has gout, he has back 
problems, he has heart problems.

267
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,120
He can't eventually climb the 
steps. 

268
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:32,840
Of the red. 
Keep climb the stairs of the 

269
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,200
Iron Throne. 
At the end of his life, he can't

270
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,520
even get out of bed. 
And what this does is it informs

271
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,360
specifically the Green faction 
who is physically present with 

272
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,320
the King and the Red Keep, that 
they know to start preparing, 

273
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,480
start laying the groundwork to 
make sure that for them, Avon 

274
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,600
the Elder succeeds. 
The moment the king dies, 

275
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,720
Allison knows that she can put a
servant in the household to 

276
00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,160
inform her, because even though 
she might not know the day or 

277
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,880
hour that the King is going to 
die, she knows it's going to be 

278
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,400
soon and she needs to be ready 
to move the moment the king 

279
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,200
breathes his last. 
The problem with Baylor is 

280
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,200
exactly what you point out. 
Nobody knows when Baylor is 

281
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,160
going to die. 
He's only 27. 

282
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,920
That's not old even by Westerosi
standards. 

283
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,400
And what you mentioned at the 
beginning, he's the son and the 

284
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,800
grandson of kings who had fairly
lengthy, well, I should say the 

285
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,720
son of a king who had a fairly 
lengthy reign and the descendant

286
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,040
of a king who reigned for 55 
years. 

287
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,640
So. 
The. 

288
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,280
Problem. 
But then as as you mentioned, is

289
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,240
Baylor's also going on these 
long extended fasts and what 

290
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,600
that does is create. 
Two very distinct, very 

291
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,320
disparate, and very extreme 
scenarios. 

292
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,160
On the one hand, maybe Baylor 
doesn't go on a fast for a long 

293
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:56,760
time and reigns 10/20/30 years. 
Or maybe Baylor goes on a fast 

294
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,200
tomorrow and dies the next day. 
And how are you? 

295
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,720
Supposed to prepare for the. 
Succession if you have no idea. 

296
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,760
Which of those is more likely? 
You can't you, you can't do 

297
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,400
that. 
Do you even know what candidates

298
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,880
are going to be alive when the 
king dies? 

299
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,240
Do you know what aristocrats are
going to be alive when the king 

300
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,520
dies? 
Do you know what the moon is 

301
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,000
going to be when the king dies? 
There's quite simply no way to 

302
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,960
know. 
And so I think for Baylor's 

303
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,079
courtiers, there would have been
this something of a knife edge 

304
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:27,319
where on the one hand, they've 
got a king who is becoming 

305
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,040
increasingly erratic, 
increasingly impractical, but 

306
00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,200
they also have no idea, A, 
what's going to happen when he 

307
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,000
died and B, when he's going to 
die. 

308
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,240
So it's this, you know, as, as 
you point out, this what we 

309
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,880
might call it in A, in a bad 
metaphor, the Valyrian sort of 

310
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,480
Damocles that is hanging above 
everyone and no one knows when 

311
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,280
it's going to drop. 
And this brings us to some of 

312
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,200
the more interesting questions 
and concerns, which is well, the

313
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,000
timing actually worked out 
pretty well. 

314
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,120
When he died, it didn't cause 
big problems, his uncle just 

315
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,640
took over. 
And well, things got a lot more 

316
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,720
interesting after that since his
uncle only lived another year 

317
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,360
and a couple months and was 
perhaps poisoned himself, but 

318
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:11,080
that's another story. 
Anyway, the point is the war 

319
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,360
didn't break out, so that's 
obviously a huge difference. 

320
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:17,120
War would break out much later 
with the Blackfyre rebellions, 

321
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:19,720
but that's not till another 25 
years. 

322
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,320
So these are reasonable concerns
and for for people to have 

323
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,240
anxiety about what's going to 
happen at court, whether Baylor 

324
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,440
had been a good or a bad king, 
this is going to be a question. 

325
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,760
So this is part of why I think 
it's fair to view Baylor as 

326
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,920
Gray. 
Obviously there's the extremes 

327
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,480
in his life. 
There's so many things he did 

328
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,120
quite well that you want, you 
appreciate and respect about 

329
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:44,520
him. 
But this is such a basic duty of

330
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,640
kingship, which is to make sure 
the succession is smooth. 

331
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:52,040
It's such an obvious way for the
realm to collapse in on itself 

332
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,520
for for thousands of people to 
die is by having a succession 

333
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,720
crisis. 
It's it's the most 

334
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,800
straightforward thing that can 
go wrong really in a, in a 

335
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,120
monarchy. 
And Baylor did not handle that. 

336
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:05,040
So I think it's fair to 
criticize him for that in a very

337
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,240
similar way to Viserys the 
First, as you say. 

338
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,360
And if, for example, Viserys the
first had handled his succession

339
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,440
well. 
Well, of course, not only would 

340
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,880
it have averted civil war, but 
it would erase a lot of what 

341
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,400
otherwise was a very mediocre 
reign for Baylor. 

342
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,360
It's not so simple, is it? 
Because this is a guy that was 

343
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,320
so up and down, so extreme, so 
popular with the comments, so 

344
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,560
unpopular with the nobility, and
that's what makes him so unique 

345
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,400
in the 1st place. 
So what? 

346
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,160
What do we think his reasoning 
was? 

347
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,560
Do we have any idea maybe, or 
any guesses as to why he didn't 

348
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,120
name a succession? 
I mean, is it just because he 

349
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:45,320
thought the gods would let him 
know someday and he too realized

350
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,400
how young he was and maybe 
wasn't worried about it? 

351
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,880
Or any any other ideas? 
Honestly, I, and it, it sounds 

352
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,240
very simple to say it, I don't 
think Baylor thought he was 

353
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,560
going to die. 
I, I, I genuinely think that 

354
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,200
Baylor just simply didn't think 
the gods were done with him, 

355
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,800
didn't think that his work with 
the Seven was done. 

356
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,200
And so why would he plan for a 
world where he wouldn't exist? 

357
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,480
If he believed that he was 
literally the agent of the seven

358
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,000
on earth to do their will, there
was still clearly a lot to be 

359
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,560
done, as we're going to talk 
about in just a moment, as as 

360
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,320
far as Baylor believed. 
So he's not working to make sure

361
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,280
that, oh, I need to plan for the
day that I'm not here. 

362
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,960
I think in Baylor's mind it was 
Oh no, no, I personally. 

363
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,920
Still have a lot to. 
Do I'm not planning for the day 

364
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,440
that someone else is taking over
for that? 

365
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,800
And this would have been easier 
to swallow early on because he 

366
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,480
was even younger and even 
earlier in his growing erratic 

367
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,840
behavior. 
This the bar chart of his 

368
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:51,680
erraticism increases over time. 
And but as he got farther along,

369
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,720
he started to do at least or at 
least talk about things that 

370
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,840
might have caused serious 
problems and not just with the 

371
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,920
succession. 
For example, he came to believe 

372
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,760
that the seven wanted him to 
convert all the unbelievers in 

373
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,360
the realm. 
Now I think a lot of y'all 

374
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:13,560
understand that there's a lot of
non 7 worshippers in the realm. 

375
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,000
There's the entirety of the 
north and the entirety of the 

376
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,400
Iron Islands. 
Well, not the entirety, but 

377
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,240
mostly for the, for the most 
part, those are realms that have

378
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,720
very little worship of the 
seven. 

379
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,880
And there are some, of course, 
in the South that don't worship 

380
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,600
the seven. 
The two worship the old gods or 

381
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,880
perhaps the Drowned God here and
there, and of course the 

382
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,160
relorists here and there and the
occasional other worshipper. 

383
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,560
Now that of course is a big 
deal. 

384
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,000
And it's not just a big deal 
because it could cause extreme 

385
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,520
amounts of violence. 
I mean, we could call this 

386
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,320
tyranny, couldn't we? 
I think you can. 

387
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,480
I, I think if it's, if it's not 
tyranny, it is something very, 

388
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,280
very close to tyranny. 
Baylor is saying I'm declaring 

389
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,640
war on my own subjects, not 
because they've committed a 

390
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,120
crime, not because they're in 
rebellion against me, not 

391
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:01,600
because they've committed 
treason. 

392
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,120
I'm going to war against my own 
people because they're 

393
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,160
practicing a religion that or 
multiple religions that from the

394
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,800
earliest days of the Targaryen 
conquest, not to mention long 

395
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,440
before that, they had practiced.
The Targaryens had always 

396
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,680
recognized the North and the 
Iron Islands in these pockets of

397
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,360
old gods or, you know, Drowned 
God worship. 

398
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,240
Now Baylor is saying no, 
actually, not only am I going to

399
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,280
make sure that you don't do 
that, I'm going. 

400
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,920
To go to war with you. 
And kill you until you accept 

401
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,640
that you can't do that and. 
That's a real dangerous thing 

402
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,760
for a king to do, to start a war
against his own people on the 

403
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,000
basis of religion. 
I, you know, there's, there's a 

404
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,720
couple of historical examples in
Westers of kings doing this. 

405
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,320
And spoiler alert, it never went
well for the kings who were 

406
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,560
involved in this. 
You look at someone like 

407
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,920
Humphrey Teague. 
Humphrey Teague seems to have 

408
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,280
been a king very much in the 
model of Baylor. 

409
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,440
He's a, you know, historical 
king of the Riverlands. 

410
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,520
He's a very pious king, very 
zealous king. 

411
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,080
And he decides. 
I don't want any more Old gods 

412
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,520
worship in the Riverlands, so 
I'm going to stamp it out. 

413
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,520
I'm just going to go to war to 
make sure that no one can 

414
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,520
worship the Old gods. 
Well, what happens? 

415
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,920
He gets a rebellion of his 
vassals and. 

416
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,640
Here's what's important. 
It's not just the Blackwoods who

417
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,600
rebel against him. 
Obviously they have a vested 

418
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,280
interest because they worship 
the Old gods. 

419
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,920
But it's also the Tulleys and 
the Vances, because what I think

420
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,600
they recognized, and if so 
correctly recognized, is it the 

421
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,800
king saying today I can go to 
war against you because I don't 

422
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,000
like the way that you practice 
religion, means that tomorrow 

423
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,840
the king can come up with a 
different kind of tyranny and 

424
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,640
attack any of his other vassals.
None of them are safe. 

425
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,840
If the king can do this. 
And what happens is not just a 

426
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,840
war that encompasses the 
entirety of the Riverlands, this

427
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,120
becomes a truly international 
conflict because the Durandans 

428
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,160
invade to support the 
Blackwoods. 

429
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,280
And what it leads to is the 
downfall of House Teague and the

430
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,120
elimination of the Riverlands as
an independent political entity.

431
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,800
The Teague's fall. 
And the Durandan simply absorb 

432
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,440
the Riverlands as an imperial 
conquest. 

433
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,080
So yeah, bad idea. 
Humphrey Teague Real. 

434
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,720
Bad idea for you to do. 
That and I think in a way, 

435
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,240
although you know it, it sounds 
strange to say it because they 

436
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,040
couldn't be more opposite in 
their, you know, relation to the

437
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,520
Faith. 
But in a way, this might not 

438
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,280
have seemed so different from 
Magor. 

439
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,600
Again, Magor's no friend to the 
Faith. 

440
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,600
He basically declares war on the
Faith, but what it leads to is a

441
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,360
war in which thousands and 
thousands of his subjects are 

442
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,920
personally killed by the king 
for siding with the Faith. 

443
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,720
And what happens? 
Does Magor eliminate the faith 

444
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,960
in Westeros? 
No, not at all. 

445
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,760
In fact, quite the opposite. 
Everyone abandons Magor, 

446
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,000
everyone rallies, not just to 
the faith, but to Jeharis, to 

447
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,360
his rival, to his nephew. 
And Magor dies alone and 

448
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,280
friendless and is remembered as 
a cruel tyrant. 

449
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,200
So the idea, the reason I bring 
these up, is to say the idea of 

450
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,040
a king who decides to declare 
war on his people on the basis 

451
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,640
of religion, it's not a good 
idea. 

452
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,760
For Baylor, there's not good 
historical precedent for him to 

453
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,040
do this. 
Yeah, and if you go back even 

454
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,160
farther, it's not a good idea 
for humanity to go up against 

455
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,600
the old gods. 
They had a a whole pact and 

456
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,200
everything. 
It was a whole deal and we're 

457
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,200
still, we're still learning 
things about that. 

458
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,040
It was so long ago. 
So. 

459
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,360
So this, yeah, this plan for a 
crusade of sorts, I guess, non 

460
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:52,240
believers. 
Yeah, you're right. 

461
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,600
That would have been a lot like 
Magor. 

462
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,880
Instead of a war against the 
this faithful, it would have 

463
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,360
began a war against the non 
faithful. 

464
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:59,160
Either way, those are his 
subjects. 

465
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:00,800
Like you say, that's hot. 
That's awful. 

466
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,360
And this isn't that long after 
the dance. 

467
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:09,080
We're talking 4 decades and even
more recently the failure 

468
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,680
Endorn, which that cost a lot of
lives and cost a lot of goodwill

469
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,160
and created a lot of bad 
feelings and, and broken homes 

470
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,080
and families. 
There weren't any more Dragons, 

471
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,240
but you don't need Dragons to 
cause devastation. 

472
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,240
You know, they, they're very 
helpful in that regard. 

473
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,640
But still you can, you can do 
quite a lot without them. 

474
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,800
So especially like you say, when
it's a religious type war where 

475
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,720
people get really dug in and and
it's about their beliefs and and

476
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,200
what makes them dig in perhaps 
more than anything and fight to 

477
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,080
the death more than anything. 
So yeah, that's a really, you 

478
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,120
can really understand why this 
is the sort of thing that 

479
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,760
someone might kill you over 
before you can get started. 

480
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,680
So let's move forward to why he 
was not able to launch any such 

481
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,520
war or campaign of any kind 
whatsoever. 

482
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,560
And that's because, well, he 
wasn't around to do so. 

483
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Death. 
Just as Baylor was dreaming up 

484
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,880
this crusade of sorts, dreaming 
quite literally perhaps, he got 

485
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,680
a significant shock. 
The eventual birth of Damon 

486
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,960
Waters, the natural child of 
Dana Targaryen, by a father she 

487
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,440
refused to name, but whom the 
realm later learned was none 

488
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,000
other than her cousin Aegon 
while he was still a Prince, led

489
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,680
to another fit of fasting by the
king. 

490
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,200
He had already nearly killed 
himself some years before when 

491
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,960
he fasted for a moon's turn 
following the deaths of his 

492
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,920
cousin Princess Nerius's twins 
shortly after their delivery. 

493
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,560
This time, Baylor took it yet 
further, refusing anything but 

494
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,160
water and taking only enough 
bread to still the cries of his 

495
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,560
stomach. 
So, Nina, let's talk about why 

496
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,160
Baylor had such an extreme 
reaction to the birth of young 

497
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,360
Damon. 
Yeah, I think, you know, I, I 

498
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,400
think when, when Baylor learned 
about this, learned about baby, 

499
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,800
baby Damon's birth, I think he 
saw it as a. 

500
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,120
Personal failure on his part, 
meaning on Baylor's part. 

501
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,880
Because it was his idea. 
To imprison Dana and his sisters

502
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,840
in the made in ball and he. 
Did it specifically to keep them

503
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,240
away from men. 
He did not want them tempting 

504
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,840
the men of his realm, including,
obviously, Baylor himself. 

505
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,080
And So what he's finding is Dana
making what I think he would 

506
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,600
have thought of making a mockery
of that, saying no, not only am 

507
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,960
I going to be in the Maiden 
Vault, but I'm actually going to

508
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,840
have a. 
Child, while I'm in the maiden 

509
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,880
vault, I'm going to do exactly 
what you didn't want me to do. 

510
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,160
I'm going to, again in Baylor's 
mind, use my beauty to tempt the

511
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,880
unknown father of this child 
into having this child with me 

512
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,880
and. 
I don't think it. 

513
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,120
Helped the situation, at least 
in Baylor's mind, that Dana was 

514
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,080
being pretty incendiary with his
name. 

515
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,400
He was being pretty, pretty 
deliberate in choosing this name

516
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,600
for for her baby. 
Because what Yandel says is that

517
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,440
Dana specifically named her baby
Damon after their paternal 

518
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,200
grandfather, Prince Damon, 
because Prince Damon had been 

519
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,520
what Yandel refers to as the 
wonder and terror of his age. 

520
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,720
And I think for Baylor, that 
would have made the situation 

521
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,560
just that much more embarrassing
and in Baylor's mind, that much 

522
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,120
more awful because he doesn't 
want to think of himself or his 

523
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,200
era as anything similar to 
Damon, as, you know, someone who

524
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,600
not only doesn't seem to have 
been particularly pious, but 

525
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,000
someone who's famous for his 
warmongering, famous for his 

526
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,760
love affairs. 
That's not the ancestor I think 

527
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,960
Baylor is looking to for 
inspirations. 

528
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:04,320
The idea that his sister that 
he's trying to mold into piety 

529
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,000
like himself is now looking for 
inspiration to this, you know, 

530
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,960
rogue of a grandfather. 
I think he would have just found

531
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,560
that whole situation so 
personally humiliating and so 

532
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,080
embarrassing that he personally 
needs to repent for it. 

533
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,920
He personally needs to take that
on to sort of expiate what he 

534
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,680
saw as Dana's sin. 
Yeah, I agree because he did 

535
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,520
have that, you know, it's his 
responsibility type attitude 

536
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,480
about, well, everything like the
soul of Westeros was his 

537
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,160
responsibility. 
So any infraction like this, 

538
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,280
especially amongst his own 
family, especially amongst like 

539
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,920
you said, people he had 
specifically targeted for a 

540
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,920
specific type of control that 
did not work. 

541
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,040
It, it backfired spectacularly 
because Dana got pregnant and we

542
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,800
already know according to Faith 
doctrine, Faith of the Seven, 

543
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,640
they don't look too kindly on 
women in relationships, 

544
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,680
especially extramarital affairs.
So that would be something he 

545
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,240
also took personally, I think, 
right. 

546
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,360
He would blame himself for that.
And well, there's a few other, 

547
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,480
maybe some parallels here we can
discuss, aren't there? 

548
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,800
No, absolutely. 
I mean, you know, I don't want 

549
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,880
to paint, you know, a broad 
brush and say everyone in the 

550
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,480
faith believes the same thing. 
When it comes to women in 

551
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,520
relationships, obviously 
everyone is different. 

552
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,840
But what we see very clearly 
with the High Sparrow, for 

553
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,800
example, who himself very much 
takes Baylor as a. 

554
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,160
Model. 
What the High Sparrow says to 

555
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,640
Cersei is quite explicitly 
misogynistic. 

556
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,680
It is all women are wantons at 
heart, and widows especially so.

557
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,880
They're all willing to use their
beauty to tempt men. 

558
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,080
This is what the representative 
of the voice of the Seven on 

559
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,120
Earth is telling Cersei. 
So I think Baylor, again, we 

560
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,360
made comparisons between the 
High Sparrow and Baylor before. 

561
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,200
I think Baylor might have 
believed something similar. 

562
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,800
That. 
You know, if women are wantons 

563
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,840
at heart, well, this just proves
it. 

564
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,120
Look at that. 
I did everything in my power, 

565
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,240
Baylor things to make sure that 
they couldn't do it and they did

566
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,400
it anyway. 
So it's just confirming this, 

567
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,680
you know, idea in his mind. 
And again, I think that's adding

568
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,880
to what he what Baylor would 
have seen as his personal 

569
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,880
humiliation. 
Dana is having a child. 

570
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,040
Obviously she's not married to 
the father of this child, so. 

571
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,320
He. 
Is, in Baylor's mind, fulfilling

572
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,600
what he thinks are the worst 
fears for what women can do? 

573
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,160
Yeah, absolutely. 
He, he would frame it all that 

574
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,880
way because that's his, his very
tight and sincerely held 

575
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,120
worldview that's fairly 
unshakable. 

576
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,560
So he wouldn't have these 
questions about what happened. 

577
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,280
He would take it as it came and 
it would be very shameful, like 

578
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,040
you said, something that 
required penance, like you said,

579
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,840
and maybe extreme penance. 
And that's exactly what 

580
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,120
happened. 
It was extreme penance that 

581
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,360
came, and an extreme result. 
Whether that result was was 

582
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,560
helped along is something we'll 
discuss in a moment. 

583
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,960
But there's no doubt what he did
was well, wow quote. 

584
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,840
For 40 days he kept his regimen.
On the 41st day, he was found 

585
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,280
collapsed before the altar of 
the Mother. 

586
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,520
Grandmaester Munkin did what he 
could to heal the King. 

587
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,280
So too did the boy High Septon. 
But his miracles were at an end.

588
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,840
The king joined the seven in the
10th year of his reign in 171 

589
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,160
AC. 
So this was not the first time 

590
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,760
Baylor had gone on extreme fast.
But this probably was the 

591
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,000
longest as far as we know. 
And that is really long. 41 

592
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,640
days. 
I mean, goodness, I mean, just 

593
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,000
bread and water for 41 days. 
I mean, hard to imagine what 

594
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,720
that would do to a person. 
We we hear from Yandel that as 

595
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,120
his reign came to a close, the 
King quote began to spend more 

596
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,680
and more time fasting and 
praying, attempting to make up 

597
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,600
for all the sins and offenses he
believed he and his subjects 

598
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,000
were committing on a daily 
basis. 

599
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
So it wasn't just this. 
This was perhaps the biggest 

600
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,160
event that weighed on his mind 
in in recent weeks or months, 

601
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,000
the the birth of young Damon. 
But there were other things that

602
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,560
weighed on him and his 
escalating mental health 

603
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:07,640
problems. 
Madness. 

604
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,040
Whatever you want to frame it 
as, whatever you call it, it was

605
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,520
getting worse. 
Yandel notes here too that 

606
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,560
Baylor fasted when there E gave 
birth to two short lived 

607
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,560
children. 
So whether he was ashamed of 

608
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,679
that or just thought it was the 
thing to do to get guidance or 

609
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,120
to communicate with the gods, 
really fasting was just his go 

610
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,920
to response to a lot of things, 
really a lot of major events, 

611
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,320
whether they were something that
you could say he was taking 

612
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,120
responsibility for or something 
else. 

613
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,960
Maybe it was on his mind. 
But as we mentioned before, he 

614
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,719
he did this kind of regularly. 
So it wasn't exactly something 

615
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,040
that people would expect to have
such extreme consequences, was 

616
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,600
it? 
No, absolutely. 

617
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,440
And and this is. 
Goes back to the point that I 

618
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,320
was making before is that. 
You know, in the same way that. 

619
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,160
No one knows. 
What's going to happen with any 

620
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,720
given fast? 
This was not, as you say, 

621
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,400
Baylor's first fast. 
This was he's not not his first 

622
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:03,360
rodeo. 
So to speak. 

623
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,800
And so and we see in this fast, 
even though Baylor is obviously 

624
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,320
taking a very extreme measure, 
he's only getting. 

625
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,360
As much food and water as. 
He believes is necessary to 

626
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,520
survive day-to-day. 
He is taking that food and 

627
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,840
water. 
So I think that Baylor himself 

628
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:22,800
did believe that, you know, 
fasting didn't mean consume 

629
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,880
nothing. 
It just meant deny yourself 

630
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,920
everything except the basic 
sustenance to live. 

631
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,040
So I think it still would have 
been seen as very shocking and 

632
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,560
very sudden that the that this 
is what kills the king. 

633
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,480
That when he had gone on fasts 
before, when he's still 

634
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,480
relatively young, when he is 
fasting aside, seemingly 

635
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,520
otherwise pretty healthy, that 
all of a sudden he's just, you 

636
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,800
know, drop dead. 
And that's the end of Baylor's 

637
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,440
reign. 
So suspicions arose pretty 

638
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,160
quickly that the King's death 
wasn't exactly natural 

639
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:57,040
poisoning. 
After Baylor died, his uncle 

640
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,680
Viserys became king after having
been Hand. 

641
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,200
We'll talk a bit more later 
about the transition to power, 

642
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,680
but let's focus for the moment 
on these suspicions around 

643
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,080
Baylor's death. 
Quote malicious rumors that 

644
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,640
followed in the wake of 
Vicerys's ascension. 

645
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:17,200
Begun, some say, are the pen of 
the Lady Maya, of how Stokeworth

646
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:22,080
suggested that Vicerys poisoned 
the king in order to finally 

647
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,000
gain the throne after a decade 
and more of waiting. 

648
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,720
Others have suggested that 
Vicerys poisoned Baylor for the 

649
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,800
good of the realm since the 
Septon King had come to believe 

650
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,440
that the Seven called on him to 
convert all the unbelievers in 

651
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,760
his realm. 
This would have led to a war 

652
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,560
with the North and the Iron 
Islands that would have caused 

653
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,400
great turmoil. 
So it's interesting that some of

654
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,920
these rumors started with Maya 
Stokeworth, given that Viserys 

655
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,400
son Aegon was in a relationship 
with Felina Stokeworth, later 

656
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,880
Felina Lawston, some 20 years 
before Baylor's death. 

657
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,000
What do we think was the 
relationship between those two, 

658
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,720
Maya and Felina? 
That's a huge question for me 

659
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:10,600
and and I don't, I don't know, 
I've not known what to make of 

660
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,840
it for the. 
Ten years that we've had the 

661
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,760
World of Ice and Fire, I don't 
know that I've ever seen a 

662
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,560
really good theory as to why 
Jordan Martin made this. 

663
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,800
Specifically Maya Soapworth. 
Who is giving this rumor? 

664
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,800
Is it just a red herring? 
Is it something that is being 

665
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,040
informed by Felina? 
Are they sisters? 

666
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,880
Are they? 
Cousins I I don't know. 

667
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,240
I I don't know. 
I think it's something that I'm 

668
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:37,800
very curious to see if Fire and 
Blood has more information on. 

669
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,040
Obviously the Stokeworths are, 
for lack of a better term, in 

670
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,800
the Targaryen's backyard, so 
they are as close as physically 

671
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,520
possible to being near to court 
hearing about these rumors. 

672
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,800
So it. 
May just be as simple as that. 

673
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,800
But it also may bring in this 
dimension that, you know, Maya 

674
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,640
clearly is some kind of relation
to Falena Stokeworth Lady Lady 

675
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,800
Falena Lawston. 
And to the extent that. 

676
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,000
Falena and Aegon still have any 
kind of personal connection at 

677
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,960
this point. 
There may be something more 

678
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,080
there to to these rumors. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

679
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,440
I got to agree. 
I mean, Aegon does eventually 

680
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,160
end up king within just a couple
years here. 

681
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,480
And with all the things we 
discussed about potentially 

682
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,960
starting Civil war, there's so 
much motive here, not to mention

683
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:33,360
Baylor's other anti noble 
policies and his mental health 

684
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,920
problems. 
So it's fascinating too how much

685
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,120
this is a question not just for 
us, but in world. 

686
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:43,040
We know that these rumors have 
made it into present day as we 

687
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,800
see discussed in A Storm of 
Swords here. 

688
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,360
This is a fantastic 
conversation, an exchange 

689
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,760
between some different 
characters right here. 

690
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,560
Oberyn gave a shrug. 
A year or a fortnight? 

691
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,920
What does it matter? 
He poisoned his own nephew to 

692
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,320
gain the throne and then did 
nothing once he had it. 

693
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,120
Baylor starved himself to death.
Fasting, said Tyrion. 

694
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,680
His uncle served him loyally, as
Hand as he had served the young 

695
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,480
dragon before him. 
The series might only have 

696
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:16,120
reigned a year, but he ruled for
15 while Deron Ward and Baylor 

697
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,640
prayed. 
He made a sour face. 

698
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,200
And if he did remove his nephew,
can you blame him? 

699
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:27,000
Someone had to save the realm 
from Baylor's follies. 

700
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:33,440
Now, George isn't so simple as 
to suggest poisoning. 

701
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,480
And for us to take that as an 
automatic, he's clever enough 

702
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,360
and subtle enough to mix it up 
to suggest poisoning. 

703
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,440
And it doesn't have to mean that
that's the case, because it's 

704
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,520
going to be rational sometimes 
for people to think about a 

705
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,680
poisoning and it not always be 
the case. 

706
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,080
It can't always be a poisoning, 
right? 

707
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,520
But when we don't know, it's 
fair to ask the question, even 

708
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,480
if we can't get to the answer. 
Yandel deliberately introduces 

709
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,040
the idea, but Tyrion doubts it, 
right? 

710
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,920
I, I love this. 
We get so many different takes, 

711
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,400
and some not just on the murder 
potential, but on Baylor 

712
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,320
himself. 
And it's a character that we 

713
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,360
don't see explored. 
Like this very often for our 

714
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,880
historical figure, sure we see 
this discussed about Stannis or 

715
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,000
Renly or maybe even Rob or Ned, 
cause those are characters in 

716
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,200
the present. 
But to have a character like 

717
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,520
this discussed in this light is 
really interesting and it just 

718
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,160
shows just how much effort 
George put into Baylor. 

719
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,600
Now there's two important 
caveats here to keep in mind 

720
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,480
when talking about him being 
poisoned. 1 George has left 

721
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,560
himself an out to explain 
Baylor's death. 

722
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:46,000
We have the very strong cover 
story of yes, his own health was

723
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,000
questionable. 
It's not an automatic, but it's 

724
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:54,280
within the realm of OK, yeah, he
just had bad health from poor 

725
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,120
nutrition. 
Baylor had almost died after 

726
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,040
fasting from the death of Nares 
twins. 

727
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,560
So he went really far with that 
one. 

728
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,360
And according to Yandel, it 
almost took his life then. 

729
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,520
Now, what does that mean? 
What does it mean that he almost

730
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,440
died? 
I mean, we don't know. 

731
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:11,800
He was on death's door because 
he didn't have enough food. 

732
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,640
They gave him some food, and he 
started feeling better. 

733
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,240
I don't know how it works with 
starvation in that sense. 

734
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:18,840
And every case is probably a 
little unique. 

735
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,120
And he wasn't. 
Yeah. 

736
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,560
He wasn't in a normal situation.
So it's. 

737
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,560
It's hard to say. 
So it's entirely possible he 

738
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,320
died of, quote UN quote, natural
causes. 

739
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,320
But the number two example here 
is our possibility is that he 

740
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,840
wants us to consider the 
possibility of poisoning, but 

741
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,200
that's just part of where he 
wants to leave it, right? 

742
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:38,800
He doesn't intend for us to 
know. 

743
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,240
He intends to leave it as a 
question. 

744
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:41,920
That's a very strong 
possibility, isn't it? 

745
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,480
It is, and Jordan Martin does 
this sometimes where he'll give 

746
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,480
the possibility of a certain 
conclusion or or maybe several, 

747
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,400
you know, conclusions to a 
situation. 

748
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,800
But then ultimately leaves it up
to the reader to decide what do 

749
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,160
you think happened, what you 
think happened? 

750
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,560
Well, that's your theory. 
You get to. 

751
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,120
You get to. 
Decide that as the reader. 

752
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,200
So you think of, for example, 
you know, comparison, the death 

753
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,160
of King Amis. 
We know Amis is an extremely 

754
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,200
poor health at the end of his 
life. 

755
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,000
We also know that there are 
rumors. 

756
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,400
That the Senya poisoned Amis. 
She's there, and there is an 

757
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,000
argument that he had motive to 
do it. 

758
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,080
Does that mean that the Senya 
poisoned Amis? 

759
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,960
Well, not necessarily. 
The author leaves it ambiguous. 

760
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,880
He doesn't answer the question. 
And so it's left up for us as 

761
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,840
the readers. 
Do you think it's more likely 

762
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,680
that Amy simply died of natural 
causes or that the Senya 

763
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,120
poisoned him? 
And you know, this isn't 

764
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,680
poisoning, but I think it's a a 
useful comparison. 

765
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,160
You think about the way that 
fire and blood presents the 

766
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,080
deaths of leaner Valerian and 
then the Strong's Lionel and 

767
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,240
Harwin Strong during what's 
called the Year of the Red 

768
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:46,520
Spring. 
Again, speaking specifically to 

769
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,400
the book, not to the way that 
the TV show presents it. 

770
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,000
Bruno Martin doesn't give us an 
answer as to. 

771
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,080
Why Carl? 
Corey kills Leonor. 

772
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,040
He doesn't give us an answer as 
to who, if anyone, set the fire 

773
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,560
at Harrenhal that killed the 
Strongs. 

774
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,440
He gives us a lot of 
possibilities, but he doesn't 

775
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,560
settle on any one of them. 
It's for us as the reader to 

776
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,560
decide what do you think is the 
most likely? 

777
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,280
Aren't any of these the most 
likely? 

778
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,360
Or is there something that the 
author doesn't even mention that

779
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,840
you think is more likely than 
that? 

780
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,640
Ultimately, it's not something 
that we're ever going to get a 

781
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,800
firm answer on. 
It's a mystery, a Riddle that's 

782
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,120
left for us as the readers to 
solve, which it's really fun as.

783
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,840
We get to analyze, we get to 
piece it together and we get to 

784
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,640
make theories, but it's not 
something that we should ever 

785
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,120
expect sort of Word of God as 
the author to say, yeah. 

786
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,440
And and this is what happened 
here. 1000% I mean, that's 

787
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,360
George R Martin. 
This is the world he's created. 

788
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:36,800
And we don't get answers like 
that. 

789
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,200
There is no narrator. 
He treats it like real history, 

790
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,040
like we're doing now. 
And it's not, that's not a 

791
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:45,200
thing. 
You get real answers in, you 

792
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,280
get, you get versions, you get 
theories, you get ideas. 

793
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,960
And then you, you know, pick the
one that works best for you. 

794
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,560
Which in a way is great for a 
story too, because you get to 

795
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,280
use your imagination more than 
just being told something. 

796
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,960
All that said, what do you 
think? 

797
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,200
Where do you fall on the idea 
that Baylor was poisoned? 

798
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,120
The shorter answer is yes, I. 
Think he was. 

799
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:09,840
Poisoned. 
I don't think he was poisoned, 

800
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,200
all of those caveats aside, and 
I do think they're important 

801
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,360
caveats to keep in mind. 
Absolutely recognized. 

802
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,720
But yeah, I think he was 
poisoned, and I think Viserys 

803
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:19,720
did it. 
And the reason I think Viserys 

804
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:25,360
did it is because, put simply, I
think the saris decided that he 

805
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,360
had to choose between the king 
and the realm, and the saris's 

806
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,680
choice was the realm. 
Not the king, you know. 

807
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,640
It's important for us to keep in
mind what the Saris's political 

808
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,280
background was. 
It's not an exaggeration at all,

809
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,880
I think, to say that the Saris 
grows up in political chaos. 

810
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,840
First he sees the outbreak of 
the Dance when he's still a 

811
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,920
child. 
Then he is captured and 

812
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,840
basically sold into exile and 
lease. 

813
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,720
Then he returns to Westeros and 
he's immediately thrown into the

814
00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:01,400
chaos of the Regency. 
So he spends his entire 

815
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,160
adolescence and early adult life
seeing this political chaos all 

816
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:07,440
around him. 
He sees. 

817
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,440
What the civil? 
War did, in terms of 

818
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,920
destruction, both to the Kingdom
and to his family. 

819
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,760
He sees via the Roguers how 
quickly even a very powerful 

820
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,160
family can implode, how quickly 
popular forces can turn against 

821
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,520
a popular family. 
He sees with the Regency how 

822
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,640
much backbiting and infighting 
there can be even among people 

823
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,040
who should ostensibly have the 
same political goal, which for 

824
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,000
the Regents was ruling the realm
until Aegon the Third became an 

825
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,000
adult. 
And for the better part of at 

826
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,760
least 20 years, if not more. 
The Saris had been serving as 

827
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,440
hand to three successive kings. 
It was the Saris's job to 

828
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,720
rebuild the realm when Aeon the 
Third was king. 

829
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,200
It was the Saris's job to keep 
the realm together when Daron 

830
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,320
was making war in Dorn. 
And So what the saris gained was

831
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,160
two decades or more of acting as
basically king in all but name. 

832
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,240
He is ruling with all the powers
of an executive while his 

833
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:13,200
brother is withdrawn and while 
Deron is quite literally gone. 

834
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,840
And I think while he's serving 
under Aegon the 3rd and under 

835
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,720
Deron, Vasaris probably felt 
more or less in line 

836
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,240
ideologically and politically 
with what the kings wanted, 

837
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,720
certainly with his brother. 
We know that Vasaris and Aegon 

838
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,320
were personally extremely close 
as brothers, and I think they 

839
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:36,040
became even closer during that 
Regency when they are literally 

840
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,960
besieged together. 
They go through this chaos 

841
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,120
together, and this heiress 
becomes the one person that 

842
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,760
Aygan believes that he can 
trust. 

843
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,040
And together they've got the 
shared goal of. 

844
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,000
We saw how awful the Dance was. 
Now let's put the realm back 

845
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,120
together. 
Let's rebuild. 

846
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,680
Let's restore peace and justice 
and stability. 

847
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,920
And obviously that's not. 
Quite what Daron's goal was. 

848
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,000
Daron's goal was conquest and 
Dorn. 

849
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,360
But there is precedent for that 
in Targaryen history. 

850
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,000
There is precedent for Targaryen
kings to go and try and conquer 

851
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,640
Doran. 
And that's probably augmented 

852
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,400
because Daron did, at least for 
a brief time, succeed quite 

853
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,560
spectacularly in doing that. 
So I think that the. 

854
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,240
Saris more or less felt 
comfortable in terms of ruling 

855
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:24,080
as hand under these kings. 
And then Daron dies and Baylor 

856
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:29,120
comes, and Baylor is a very 
different king from either his 

857
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,840
father or his brother. 
He's we mentioned this at the 

858
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,240
very, very first episode. 
Baylor is just a strong world as

859
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:37,240
Daron. 
But in the completely. 

860
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:41,560
Opposite direction. 
He's not just focused on peace 

861
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,280
and piety, he's trying to roll 
in ways that have. 

862
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,560
Little to no. 
Basis in reality, and that's 

863
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,400
making the saris's job really 
difficult because now it's his 

864
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,840
job to implement the King's will
to make good on what the king 

865
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,520
wants, even though the King's 
wishes really don't have much, 

866
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:09,040
if any practicality to them. 
And you know, obviously for the 

867
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,760
better part of 10 years the 
saris is trying to do this. 

868
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,440
The saris is ruling his hand and
as far as we know he's loyally 

869
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,040
serving his hand. 
But I think over the course of 

870
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,720
that decade the saris was 
probably becoming pretty dated 

871
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:24,680
as to the situation. 
Here he is. 

872
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,240
He's got all of this 
intelligence. 

873
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:30,040
He's got all of this experience,
and yet he's spending it serving

874
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,640
a king who has. 
All of the. 

875
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:37,320
Will of a of a strong king, but 
none of the ideas of how to rule

876
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,480
practically. 
And all of that I think comes to

877
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,840
a head when Baylor decides he 
wants to go on this war against 

878
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,960
non believers. 
Because again, we mentioned this

879
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,840
before, the saris is a survivor 
of the dance. 

880
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,000
There's probably not going to be
anything more shocking to him, 

881
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,720
more horrifying to him then the 
idea of a king who willingly 

882
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,440
wants to go to war against his 
own people, who actively wants 

883
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,440
to throw the realm back into 
civil war. 

884
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,960
I think Viserys's mind, he's 
thinking you, you blockhead, 

885
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,800
you've learned nothing. 
You learned nothing from the 

886
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,920
Dance. 
Didn't you see how our family 

887
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,120
was almost destroyed? 
Didn't you see how the Kingdom 

888
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,800
was almost destroyed and now you
want to do it again? 

889
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,760
What's wrong with you? 
And I think this is the moment 

890
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,400
that Viserys thinks I got to get
rid of this guy. 

891
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,680
I, I, I can't let him keep 
going. 

892
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,480
I can't just sit here. 
He needs to go. 

893
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,920
It's not just that I'm. 
Going to try and rule for. 

894
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,120
Him, I need to get him out of 
here. 

895
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,040
And conveniently for Beceris, I 
think at that moment he has a 

896
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,320
very easy excuse to do it. 
Baylor's on this fast. 

897
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,920
That's a real easy way for 
Beceris to make it look, for 

898
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,640
lack of a better term. 
Like a natural. 

899
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,280
Death. 
Oh, unfortunate. 

900
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,000
The king just happened to go on 
a little too long of a fast. 

901
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:03,040
And the saris also knows that if
Baylor dies naturally or 

902
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,320
unnaturally, he, the saris is 
going to be best placed to 

903
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,200
immediately step into power. 
So I think, yeah, I think the 

904
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,480
saris had means, the saris had 
motive, the saris had 

905
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,640
opportunity. 
I think the saris is the one. 

906
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,800
Who killed him? 
Well put, well said. 

907
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,520
It's a strong case. 
I mean, it both serves the realm

908
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,760
as a man who had served the 
realm all along and makes the 

909
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,400
power transition very easy, even
if it couldn't look very 

910
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,520
self-serving since the power 
transfers to him. 

911
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,800
But you know, as an extreme 
action, it was arguably an 

912
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,920
extreme circumstance. 
Now, the Visenya, a nice 

913
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,520
parallel, is very strong in 
terms of the murder mystery 

914
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:48,040
angle and in terms of whether it
even happened and the fact that 

915
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,960
we have a a king who's already 
in questionable health 

916
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,880
circumstances before their 
death. 

917
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,720
So that similar muddying of the 
waters is there. 

918
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:02,800
But in terms of the motivation, 
in terms of what would be caused

919
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:08,120
by the king were they to remain 
in power, what do you think is a

920
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,520
good parallel or two that we can
think about here? 

921
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,040
Well, I think it sounds perhaps 
a little strange to say it this 

922
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,800
way, and I think the comparison 
is limited, but I think we can 

923
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,680
look just in certain ways to the
relationship. 

924
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,320
Between Jon Snow and Bowen Marsh
in A Dance with Dragons. 

925
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,040
Now again, I want to be really 
really clear here. 

926
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,440
By saying this I am not saying 
Bowen was right or John with a 

927
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,160
dummy or you need to side with 
Bowen or anything along those 

928
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,000
lines. 
But what I'm trying to. 

929
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,440
Point to is the idea of. 
What I'll call, for lack of a 

930
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,280
better term, a long serving, 
high-ranking civil servant who 

931
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,840
initially tries to work with a 
young teenage executive, but 

932
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:55,680
eventually decides that that 
executive is far too dangerous 

933
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,800
to his institution to be allowed
to rule and even to be allowed 

934
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,120
to live. 
You know when we started Dance 

935
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,480
with Dragons? 
Boa Marsh doesn't start chapter 

936
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,400
1. 
You know John 1 by saying, all 

937
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,440
right, time to kill John. 
He's not John's best friend by 

938
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,720
any stretch of the imagination, 
but he is. 

939
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:18,600
Trying to do what Bowen believes
is his job, but. 

940
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,880
What we see again and again and 
again in John's chapters is that

941
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,760
he and Bowen Marsh are. 
Constantly butting heads 

942
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,880
ideologically, they are not on 
the same page in terms of what 

943
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,240
they believe the Watch should be
about and the future of the 

944
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:35,480
watch should be. 
And I think, as Bowen is 

945
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,280
continuing to butt heads with 
Don, what Bowen decides is 

946
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,800
eventually that John is simply 
too dangerous to be allowed to 

947
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,760
continue serving as Lord 
Commander. 

948
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,800
And yes, I think Bowen does at 
some point decide John has to go

949
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,440
now whether or not Bowen's 
original. 

950
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,440
Plan was to murder John, 
especially in the way he did. 

951
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,000
I'm not quite sure of that 
versus, you know, deposing John.

952
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,680
But I do think that Bowen 
obviously decided John can't be 

953
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,720
allowed to rule anymore. 
He's not acting the way a Lord 

954
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:08,160
Commander should be. 
He's acting like he's. 

955
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,160
King of the Wall, he's acting 
like he's king of the North. 

956
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,920
He's acting not in the way that 
I, Bowen Marsh, think that the 

957
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,120
Lord Commander should act. 
And the especially strong, I 

958
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,320
think comparison here is what is
it that prompts Bowen Marsh 

959
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,040
into, you know, assassinating 
John in the way he does. 

960
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,000
It's Don's bombshell at the 
shield hall. 

961
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,000
It's John saying. 
Guess what lads, Not only. 

962
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,520
Am I going to send a bunch of 
you off to Hardhome on an 

963
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,120
overland mission to try and 
rescue the people there since my

964
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:45,080
ship mission didn't go well? 
But also I'm declaring war 

965
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,600
essentially on the Boltons and. 
I'm going to take. 

966
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,280
A private army of whoever wants 
to join me to go fight. 

967
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,160
Them, I think in Bowen. 
'S mind, he would have felt 

968
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,160
quite the same as what I think 
the Sarah spell, which is Oh my 

969
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,480
God, this guy needs to be 
stopped. 

970
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,680
He's not just a bad Lord 
Commander, he's now a tyrant 

971
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,320
Lord Commander, and he needs to 
be brought down. 

972
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,480
And what is Bowen Marsh's famous
words to John as he's stabbing 

973
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,480
him for the watch? 
Bowen isn't doing it because he 

974
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,360
personally hates John. 
He's crying. 

975
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,840
He doesn't like doing this. 
He's doing it because in Bowen's

976
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,720
mind, John is dangerous to the 
watch. 

977
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,960
And when it comes between 
serving the Lord Commander and 

978
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,480
serving the Watch, in Bowen's 
mind, killing Dawn is the only 

979
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,440
way to serve the Watch. 
Yeah, it is. 

980
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,000
And that's like you said, 
pointing to the fact that there 

981
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,520
were tears running down his face
I think is a huge tell of of 

982
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,160
what was really on his mind and 
how difficult the decision was 

983
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,400
for him, which may have been 
very similar for Viserys. 

984
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:47,240
Now, Viserys, of course, has a 
cover story with the starvation,

985
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:51,120
whereas Bowen and company had to
go straight to the stabbing, 

986
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:56,160
which is very unsubtle, 
especially given we're in the 

987
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,080
POV's mind when it happens to 
him. 

988
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:04,040
So it's very unmistakable. 
But anyway, moving back to to 

989
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,840
Baylor, there's another factor 
here too, because we Add all 

990
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,760
this up for Viserys. 
If we think about everything 

991
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,600
facing him, the difficulty of 
balancing the realm versus his 

992
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:19,720
loyalty to his family versus 
Kinslang, versus what might 

993
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:22,960
happen if he waits, which is a a
big unknown in his mind. 

994
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,000
Sure, he has experience and he 
can draw on that experience. 

995
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,000
He's intelligent, rational. 
He has the advice of other 

996
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,600
people around him, presumably 
counsel and and the like. 

997
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:38,800
It's still a very difficult 
decision, which is arguably what

998
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,880
the the best thing to write 
about, right? 

999
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,320
Say it with us, everyone. 
The human heart in conflict with

1000
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,080
itself. 
It is George RR Martin's 

1001
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,360
favorite theme. 
And I think that that is what is

1002
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,680
coming in here too. 
You know, it's the Sarah's. 

1003
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,400
We, we lay out the argument. 
I was, I laid out the argument 

1004
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,320
to say there's reasons that the 
Sarah's may have believed Baylor

1005
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,360
was a danger to the realm and 
may have genuinely believed this

1006
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,080
at the same time. 
This is his brother's last 

1007
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,440
surviving son. 
This is his beloved brother's 

1008
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,320
last surviving son. 
To save the realm, in Viserys's 

1009
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,440
mind, he has to murder his 
brother's son. 

1010
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,800
He has to betray his brother's 
legacy. 

1011
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,320
He has to destroy the dynastic 
future that his brother had laid

1012
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,360
out. 
That's not an easy choice by any

1013
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,840
stretch of the imagination, and 
I imagine that Viserys may have 

1014
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,720
wrestled with it, may have 
thought, Can I do this? 

1015
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:36,920
If I do this, am I the hero of 
the realm or am I Maigor who's 

1016
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,280
murdering my nephew just to take
the crown? 

1017
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,760
It it it may have seemed a very 
blurred line to him. 

1018
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,160
And you know, I think it is 
worth considering the Sarah's 

1019
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,400
grandson Bloodraven, I think, 
was caught in a similar dilemma 

1020
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,880
because what does he have to do 
on the red grass field? 

1021
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,240
He has to murder his brother and
his nephews. 

1022
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:57,360
And I firmly believe that 
Bloodraven loved Damon 

1023
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,200
Blackfire, which is. 
Exactly why it would have been 

1024
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,760
just as difficult of a choice. 
You know, saving the realm 

1025
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,960
doesn't mean making easy choices
in the minds of of these 

1026
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,880
individuals. 
It means doing what they think 

1027
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,600
ultimately needs to be done, but
having to deal with the 

1028
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,640
emotional and personal 
consequences of that. 

1029
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,200
Absolutely. 
And, and that's part of why 

1030
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,040
power has to be such a big part 
of the story, because you have 

1031
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,480
to have these personal 
consequences weighed against 

1032
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:28,280
some large consequence outside 
of yourself, which in this case 

1033
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,080
is generally the realm of 
generally Westeros or, or a 

1034
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,040
large portion of it or, or 
something like along those 

1035
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,600
lines. 
I like as well the idea of 

1036
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,600
comparing this to Rhaegar and 
Aries, who you know he 

1037
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,120
apparently was thinking about 
deposing his father and would 

1038
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:48,000
have presumably done so 
peaceably and with support if if

1039
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,640
it gone the way he had hoped 
for. 

1040
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,000
I assume he wouldn't have wanted
violence, but that's a thing 

1041
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,960
that never actually happened. 
Some some other interesting 

1042
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,280
notes from the quotes there. 
Grand Maester Munkin did what he

1043
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,840
could to save the King. 
This is presumably the same 

1044
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,640
Munkin who became Regent for 
Aegon the Third, which means he 

1045
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,240
was both a witness to and an 
expert on the Dance. 

1046
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,240
He quite literally wrote the 
book on the civil war, even if 

1047
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:15,880
Tyrion disagrees with some of 
it. 

1048
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,520
Munkin had also shown an 
unwillingness to acknowledge 

1049
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:24,160
Aegon the Third's half sisters, 
Bella and Reyna, as Aegon's 

1050
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,080
heirs if the king died childless
so just because they were women.

1051
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,720
So there's obviously some some 
bias here at work on Munkin's 

1052
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:36,000
part, but regardless of that, 
did what he could to save the 

1053
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:36,800
king. 
That's interesting. 

1054
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,640
That means they that maybe he 
wasn't completely dead when they

1055
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:43,160
found him passed out on the 
altar or what have you. 

1056
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:49,280
And either way, it's possible 
that Munkin would have supported

1057
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,120
Viserys if there was a 
conspiracy, because Viserys 

1058
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:54,920
probably didn't just do it on 
his own, right? 

1059
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,960
He would have needed the help he
would have needed to acquire 

1060
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,600
poison. 
Someone had to help him. 

1061
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,320
I mean, even if he did the 
poisoning himself, there's still

1062
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,000
the acquisition of it. 
It's hard to believe he would 

1063
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:05,560
have done it completely solo, 
isn't it? 

1064
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:07,720
Oh well, I think. 
So, and it and it is an 

1065
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,360
interesting note. 
I mean, if if we're assuming 

1066
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,680
that this truly is Munkin, who, 
by the way, must have been 

1067
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:18,440
incredibly old tired if he was 
already grand maester for Aegon 

1068
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,520
the Third before he reached his 
majority. 

1069
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:22,920
We're talking about a very old 
man, but also I. 

1070
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,200
Kind of noticed that. 
As I was sort of rereading for 

1071
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,960
this episode, is that Munkin, 
you know, did what he could to 

1072
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,080
save the king. 
In my mind, putting that 

1073
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:34,760
together with how Munkin felt 
about Aegon's sisters not being 

1074
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,800
shouldn't, or in Munkin's mind, 
not being worthy to be his 

1075
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,840
heirs, I'm thinking Munkin may 
have thought, oh, no, no, you 

1076
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,680
know, if the king dies and his 
sisters are possible next 

1077
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:47,920
candidates, I can't allow that 
to happen. 

1078
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,040
I'd much rather have the saris 
in line, you know, sort of the, 

1079
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,880
the strong executive figure 
who've been serving his hand for

1080
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,640
so long. 
So I'm, I don't know, maybe I'm 

1081
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,640
just cynical, but. 
When I read, Munkin did what he 

1082
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:00,600
could. 
To save the king. 

1083
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,640
I'm kind of thinking about, you 
know, when Tyrion confronts 

1084
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,440
Paisel and Paisel says. 
Well, yeah, see, John Aaron was 

1085
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,840
was poisoned, but his nature was
actually doing what he should be

1086
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,400
doing and trying to heal him and
I. 

1087
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,760
Didn't want that to. 
Happen because John Aaron very 

1088
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,840
definitely knew about the 
parentage of the Baratheon 

1089
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,560
children. 
So I made sure that he died. 

1090
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:21,280
That's. 
Kind of what it sounded like, 

1091
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,000
what he said, did what he could 
to save the king. 

1092
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:28,360
Yeah, it it really does. 
And the the boy High Septon 

1093
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,880
doing what he could is well, I'm
sure that was boy. 

1094
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,480
Yeah, it was probably a close 
call. 

1095
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,160
That kid probably almost ruined 
all their plans with his. 

1096
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,560
I don't know what exactly his 
his miracles on demand, but they

1097
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:42,040
weren't on demand that day. 
I. 

1098
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,240
Feel so bad for him, that kid 
just like. 

1099
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,000
This is a little. 10 year old 
off the streets and all of a 

1100
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,560
sudden he's in the middle of a 
gigantic political crisis. 

1101
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,520
Yeah, I don't think we hear 
about it, but did they just 

1102
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,640
remove him as High Septon 
afterwards? 

1103
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,520
Something and I think I. 
Actually got it wrong the last 

1104
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,080
time. 
There's no there's no no as to 

1105
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,680
what happened to this child. 
Now, that being said, I have 

1106
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,960
always had cannoned that he was 
quietly assassinated following 

1107
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:15,560
Baylor's death, either by the 
Most Devout or by Viserys, and 

1108
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:17,880
the most Devout just simply 
accepted it. 

1109
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,640
Again, we don't know this, 
there's no evidence of this. 

1110
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,640
But in my mind, I think the most
about we're like, yeah, we, we 

1111
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,760
don't want a child ruling us. 
We, we can't deal with that. 

1112
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:27,880
They don't know what they're 
doing. 

1113
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:32,440
So oh shoot, it's so unfortunate
how awful that he just died in 

1114
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,880
his sleep. 
The seven took him home. 

1115
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:41,360
We were we maybe he declared 
that he would enter, you know, a

1116
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,800
a life of penance or something, 
you know, after. 

1117
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,760
But Poochie died on the way back
to his own planet. 

1118
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,040
That sort of thing. 
Exactly this is this definitely 

1119
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,480
has shenanigans all written all 
over it for sure. 

1120
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,320
We've been using the script for 
three years now. 

1121
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,720
To start, it was an audio 
editing tool. 

1122
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,520
It provides a transcript that 
you can edit from directly. 

1123
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,000
It's really neat. 
Instead of editing the waveform,

1124
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,840
you can simply cut words out and
Descript removes the 

1125
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:09,680
corresponding portion of the 
track. 

1126
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,280
Over these three years, Descript
has continued to improve, 

1127
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,400
becoming an invaluable part of 
our video editing toolkit. 

1128
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,960
We use it to make captions, 
animated quotes like the ones in

1129
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,360
this episode. 
Unlike many other transcription 

1130
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,800
tools, it allows you to add your
own Dictionary of words so it 

1131
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,920
actually recognizes words like 
Baylor and Nerys. 

1132
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,560
Now, it's one thing for us to 
endorse a product we use 

1133
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:36,040
personally, but I think it's in 
another level entirely to 

1134
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,680
endorse something that we use 
for a living. 

1135
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:43,920
Find it at 
get.descript.com/howdescript or 

1136
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:45,200
click the link in the 
description. 

1137
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,240
Thanks to our Queen of Love and 
Beauty, patron from the depths 

1138
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,560
of Flea Bottom. 
Lord Ken of House Hammer has 

1139
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,720
declared for Queen Carey Fire of
the North, who recovered Dark 

1140
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:58,720
Sister from beyond the Wall 
succession. 

1141
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:04,440
Whether Viserys had a Hand, pun 
fully intended, in his nephew's 

1142
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,320
death, he was certainly quick to
take advantage of Baylor's 

1143
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,160
passing. 
Though both of the sons of King 

1144
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:15,400
Aegon the Third were dead, his 
three daughters yet survived, 

1145
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:20,240
and there were some amongst the 
small folk and even some Lords 

1146
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:24,280
who felt that the Iron Throne 
should buy rights now pass to 

1147
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,400
Princess Dana. 
They were few, however. 

1148
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,720
A decade of isolation in the 
Maiden Vault had left Dana and 

1149
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,280
her sisters without powerful 
allies, and memories of the woes

1150
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:41,080
that had befallen the realm when
last a woman sat the Iron Throne

1151
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,200
were still fresh. 
Dana the Defiant was seen by 

1152
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:50,880
many Lords as being wild and 
unmanageable besides, and wanton

1153
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,720
as well. 
Or a year earlier, she had given

1154
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,960
birth to a bastard son she named
Damon. 

1155
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,000
Whose sire she steadfastly 
refused to name. 

1156
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:04,000
The precedents of the Great 
Council of One O 1 and the Dance

1157
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,360
of the Dragons were therefore 
cited, and the claims of 

1158
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:12,080
Baylor's sisters were set aside.
Instead, the crown passed to his

1159
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:15,360
uncle, the King's Hand, Prince 
Viserys. 

1160
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,920
Perhaps the new King, Viserys 
the Second, had learned a few 

1161
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,080
lessons from the outbreak of the
Dance. 

1162
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,600
The Green faction had been 
physically present in the Red 

1163
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,360
Keep and quick to meet as soon 
as Viserys the First died to 

1164
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,800
make a plan for Aegon the 
Second. 

1165
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,640
A session and it was pretty 
smooth. 

1166
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,240
Rainier was back on Dragonstone,
only heard the news later and 

1167
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,000
was unable to do anything about 
it. 

1168
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,640
Maybe Viserys wanted to do the 
same, sees the throne quickly at

1169
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:48,520
the moment the king was dead, 
and not allow anyone a chance to

1170
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,360
react to it and make things as 
smooth as possible, and in that 

1171
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,160
establish himself and have that 
be a point of strength. 

1172
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,960
Ironically, despite the fact 
that Beceris and Baylor were 

1173
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:04,000
almost certainly very opposed in
a lot of ideologies, if not 

1174
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,440
their entire ideologies, they 
were united in their 

1175
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,200
unwillingness to give Baylor's 
sisters any political agency. 

1176
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:15,000
It's possible Beceris even used 
Baylor's attitude towards his 

1177
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:19,920
sisters to justify his taking of
the throne, as well as his 

1178
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,720
closest to the king and being 
Hand for so long. 

1179
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,840
That's certainly That is 
actually something of a fair 

1180
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:27,760
argument, the fact that he has 
so much experience ruling. 

1181
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:33,000
But regardless of fairness, it 
certainly helped as well. 

1182
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,600
Now I would bet Viserys also 
took advantage of the lack of 

1183
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:37,880
clarity. 
Of course there was no 

1184
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,520
succession. 
So as the Hand, he's arguably 

1185
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,960
the guy that gets to make the 
call more so than anyone else in

1186
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,720
the 1st place. 
So not only was he next in line,

1187
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:49,600
but he was the guy that got to 
make the call. 

1188
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:53,040
And these are all things that 
would have been blatantly 

1189
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,760
obvious to him, as well as to a 
lot of other people around him. 

1190
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:58,560
But what could they do about it,
right Nina? 

1191
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:00,920
Like what? 
What could anyone have done to 

1192
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:06,080
Viserys about this, given he had
control of pretty much all of 

1193
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:07,720
court? 
And again, I think that that's 

1194
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,560
why, you know. 
Whether or not Viserys actually 

1195
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,440
killed Baylor, although again, I
think he did Viserys. 

1196
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:18,480
Is quite literally best placed 
to take over at the moment of 

1197
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,480
Baylor's death because he is 
right there. 

1198
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,680
Viserys probably knows, you 
know, the moment the king dies 

1199
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,960
because he's Hand, he's going to
be there. 

1200
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,960
If the king, you know, we, we 
know obviously there's some 

1201
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,560
level of trying to treat the 
king before he dies. 

1202
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:35,440
If, if monkind is treating him, 
Viserys is probably there as 

1203
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:36,600
Hand. 
He's probably watching this 

1204
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,120
happen. 
So the moment the king breathes 

1205
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,240
his laughs, Viserys can move 
immediately. 

1206
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,360
And you know, his argument is 
not a bad one. 

1207
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,200
He's the next male. 
He's the next closest male. 

1208
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,200
He's been serving his Hand for 
at least two decades, if not 

1209
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,960
more. 
He is the most senior male of 

1210
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,120
House Targaryen. 
He's very intelligent. 

1211
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,920
He's widely seen as a ruling 
figure. 

1212
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,840
So yeah, in a way, it seemed 
pretty natural that the crown 

1213
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,040
should just simply pass right to
him. 

1214
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,560
And I think it's an important 
point that, you know, speed is 

1215
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,440
everything. 
We see this so much in A Game of

1216
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,160
Thrones. 
When Robert dies, you know, one 

1217
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,680
of Ned's crucial mistakes is 
that he loses that opportunity 

1218
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,800
to move immediately. 
What he needed to be doing is 

1219
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,400
immediately saying, by the way, 
Robert's dead, I'm now Regan 

1220
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:25,840
Enhan. 
Oh, and by the way, the. 

1221
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:28,520
Joffrey is not Robert's son, and
the rightful heir should be. 

1222
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,240
He doesn't move immediately. 
And So what Ned finds is that 

1223
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,680
when he tries to do this, 
Joffrey's already literally 

1224
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,000
sitting the Iron Throne. 
He's already got that baked in. 

1225
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:40,640
I think the Sarah didn't make 
that mistake. 

1226
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:42,480
I think he made sure to. 
Move. 

1227
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:46,880
Quite quickly to consolidate his
power so that the moment Dana or

1228
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,560
Rayna or Elena figures it out, 
it's too late. 

1229
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:52,120
They, they don't have any shot 
at making themselves, you know, 

1230
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:57,320
having a shot at becoming a 
queen legacy. 

1231
01:07:57,880 --> 01:07:59,440
It's a big one. 
It's a rich 1. 

1232
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:04,280
Baylor is highly memorable as an
in world figure, which makes him

1233
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,800
doubly or triply given the 
number of episodes interesting 

1234
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,320
to us. 
Appropriately, we have 3 

1235
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:15,120
specific examples of people who 
are named after Baylor, and they

1236
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,720
have a nice variety to them. 
There's Baylor Breaks Beer, who 

1237
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,640
of course was born not long 
before Baylor's death. 

1238
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:25,800
He was born technically about a 
maybe a matter of months, maybe 

1239
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:28,760
as much as a year. 
It's not entirely clear, but he 

1240
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,520
had been born. 
So that would have been one 

1241
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,479
where Baylor might have actually
eaten something that day. 

1242
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,359
So that's that's something good.
But maybe he still starves 

1243
01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:39,000
himself when he's giving thanks.
I don't know this guy. 

1244
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:42,040
You never know. 
Then there's Baylor Black Tide, 

1245
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:46,720
who was ironborn but worshipping
of the seven so that that 

1246
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,439
family's a little different or 
has at least some adherence to 

1247
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:50,520
the seven. 
They're a little, they're a 

1248
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,840
little different, but that's the
story of another day. 

1249
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:58,240
Baylor Hightower, AKA Baylor 
Bridesmile or Baylor Breakwind 

1250
01:08:58,399 --> 01:09:01,520
is a current example. 
He's alive as well right now. 

1251
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:02,560
I guess. 
So is Baylor. 

1252
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,200
Well, Baylor Black Tide was 
alive at the start of the 

1253
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:09,880
series, but not so much anymore.
He got he got drowned and Baylor

1254
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:13,200
Hightower is is of course still 
right now and also might be 

1255
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:17,680
killed by Euron, However, but 
until then, he's a good example 

1256
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,680
because the your name. 
Is Baylor just avoid Euron 

1257
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,040
entirely? 
You should avoid Eurons, Yes, 

1258
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:26,960
you should. 
But he is associated with the 

1259
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,399
Hightower family, which of 
course, being a member of them, 

1260
01:09:29,399 --> 01:09:33,880
which is of course associated 
with the closeness to the the 

1261
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:37,160
Faith of the Seven and the 
former seat of the Faith, at 

1262
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:43,160
least it was sometime around 
this time maybe, or before the 

1263
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,880
seat moved entirely clear. 
But as we'll discuss in a little

1264
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,279
bit, Baylor Sept is a big part 
of what really established the 

1265
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:53,600
seat of the faith in King's 
Landing instead of in Old Town. 

1266
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,440
Now, of course, the tale of 
Baylor and the Dragon Knight and

1267
01:09:57,440 --> 01:09:59,240
the Vipers is extremely 
memorable. 

1268
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:00,800
People are going to. 
That's the kind of thing people 

1269
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:03,800
aren't going to forget easily. 
It's a great story, especially 

1270
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:08,960
coming as it does in the non 
dragon era of Targaryens, which 

1271
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,160
is also more recent. 
So in some ways it's more 

1272
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,800
memorable because it's not quite
as old as some of those other 

1273
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:14,880
stories. 
It's a little easier to 

1274
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,160
remember. 
Now let's get back to our 

1275
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:20,400
friends in A Song of Ice and 
Fire. 

1276
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,320
This time a bigger conversation.
I love this one even more than 

1277
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:25,440
the other one because it has 
even more voices. 

1278
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:30,200
Tyrion, the Red Viper, the 
Laria, Sand and Sansa all 

1279
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,040
weighing in here. 
Quote, But Baylor the Blessed 

1280
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:36,200
was a great king. 
He walked the Bone Way barefoot 

1281
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:39,560
to make peace with Doran and 
rescued the Dragon Knight from a

1282
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:42,320
snake pit. 
The Vipers refused to strike him

1283
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:46,480
because he was so pure and holy.
Prince Oberyn smiled. 

1284
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,960
If you were a Viper, my lady, 
would you want to bite a 

1285
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:51,800
bloodless stick like Baylor the 
Blessed? 

1286
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,760
I'd sooner save my fangs for 
someone juicier. 

1287
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,680
My Prince is playing with you, 
Lady Sansa, Said the woman, 

1288
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,960
Ilaria Sand. 
The septons and singers like to 

1289
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:06,440
say that the snakes did not bite
Baylor, but the truth is very 

1290
01:11:06,440 --> 01:11:10,120
different. 
He was bitten half, 100 times 

1291
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,800
and should have died from it. 
If he had, Viserys would have 

1292
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,840
reigned a dozen years, said 
Tyrion, and the Seven Kingdoms 

1293
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:22,120
might have been better served. 
Some believe Baylor was deranged

1294
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:26,080
by all that venom. 
Yes, said Prince Oberon. 

1295
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,720
But I've seen no snakes in this 
Red Keep of yours, so how do you

1296
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,280
account for Joffrey? 
Gotta love that. 

1297
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,600
Four different opinions on 
Baylor there. 

1298
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,480
Santa has the version from 
Stories and Song, of course. 

1299
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:40,160
That's what you would expect 
from her. 

1300
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:42,680
Highly sanitized version is kind
of the point there. 

1301
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,080
Oberon just seems to doubt the 
whole thing. 

1302
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,400
All of it seems like bull to 
him. 

1303
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,240
He's like, yeah, I don't know 
about these Vipers. 

1304
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:50,680
I don't know about this other 
thing. 

1305
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:52,080
None of this stuff makes sense 
to me. 

1306
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,240
He's he's very cynical about it,
which is fair. 

1307
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:58,320
You know, I think that there's 
reasonable doubt for a lot of 

1308
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,760
it. 
Hilarious says actually he was 

1309
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,360
bitten and that just makes it 
all the more impressive. 

1310
01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:06,320
Singers say he was bit half a 
dozen times. 

1311
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:08,080
She's like, it had to have been 
more than that. 

1312
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:10,040
It was she. 
She gives a much higher number, 

1313
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:14,560
while Tyrion thinks the more 
competent ruler would have done 

1314
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,760
smarter things all along and 
would not have been in a 

1315
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,040
position that Baylor was Vipers 
or no. 

1316
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,720
Like whether it's impressive or 
not, what the hell is he doing 

1317
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:24,400
in that pit? 
You know, he's like, he 

1318
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,320
shouldn't be testing himself in 
that way. 

1319
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:28,200
That's not what King should be 
doing. 

1320
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:32,120
So he acknowledged this is a 
Baylor meant well, though, which

1321
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:34,920
I appreciate that Pyrion has a 
very nuanced kind of he's the 

1322
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:39,560
only one of these of this group 
maybe that has a a multi faceted

1323
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,120
opinion. 
Maybe if we had more time with 

1324
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,000
them, they'd they'd have they'd 
say other things. 

1325
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,720
But he also kind of like the Red
Viper doubts some of the more 

1326
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:51,360
legendary elements like he he's 
not willing to believe that the 

1327
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:53,560
guy was actually bitten like 50 
times. 

1328
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,320
Like that's I don't think so. 
I don't know. 

1329
01:12:56,320 --> 01:13:00,240
Yeah, which again, that's a fair
thing to question. 

1330
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,160
I mean, right, like 50 times 
being bitten and he didn't die. 

1331
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:07,040
OK, yeah, I I do have a hard 
time believing that even in this

1332
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:10,160
setting. 
Then Oberyn brings up a very 

1333
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:11,840
interesting question. 
I love this question. 

1334
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:15,600
It's the it's the the question 
of what does madness really 

1335
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:18,640
mean? 
He compares Baylor and the idea 

1336
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:23,520
of madness to Joffrey and a 
different idea of madness, which

1337
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:27,360
is a provocative thing to say, 
yes, but it's it's a good point.

1338
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:31,120
Baylor and Joffrey are extreme 
opposites when it comes to 

1339
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:37,200
violence, but they're both 
extremes and they both have an 

1340
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:39,920
argument to be made that there's
madness there. 

1341
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:41,200
What do you think about that, 
Nina? 

1342
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,600
You know, I, I think. 
We talked about this at the 

1343
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:46,640
very, very, very beginning of 
this series. 

1344
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:50,040
And you know, one of the points 
that I really wanted to focus on

1345
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,040
when it came to Baylor is that 
Baylor. 

1346
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:53,840
Baylor is a character of 
extremes. 

1347
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:56,600
And, and I again, I, I said it 
before and I'll say it again, I 

1348
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:59,280
mean extremes, plural, because 
Baylor. 

1349
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:04,720
Is very extreme in some ways in 
terms of, you know, his, his 

1350
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,600
peace and his commitment to 
piety and his commitment to the 

1351
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,000
small folk. 
And in some ways those are very 

1352
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,120
good things. 
Some things he did, I think we 

1353
01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:15,480
can, you know, accept as as good
and and noble and worthy. 

1354
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:18,520
But he is extreme in other ways.
Again, at the end of his life, 

1355
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:20,720
he's willing to go to war 
against his own people. 

1356
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:23,720
He's willing to do that on the 
basis of religion. 

1357
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:26,040
He's treating his sisters very 
poorly. 

1358
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:27,840
He's treating a lot of women 
very poorly. 

1359
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:33,120
So Baylor is a really difficult 
figure to get our hands around 

1360
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,240
in a way, far more difficult 
than someone like a Joffrey. 

1361
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:40,520
Joffrey is, you know, Simply 
put, a, a teenage sadist. 

1362
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:43,440
He's he's someone who just 
enjoys pain and cruelty. 

1363
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:46,240
There's not much depth of that 
when it comes to Joffrey. 

1364
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,480
There's depth in terms of, you 
know, his back story and, and 

1365
01:14:48,480 --> 01:14:50,680
what happened and what his 
upbringing was like. 

1366
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,960
But in terms of his personality,
he's a lot more straightforward 

1367
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:57,960
of a character versus a Baylor, 
who is someone that I think has 

1368
01:14:57,960 --> 01:14:59,560
a lot of facets to his 
personality. 

1369
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:04,240
He he is the same person who 
wants to empty the treasury 

1370
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:08,680
constantly to make sure that his
people have food and money and 

1371
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:12,920
doesn't want to wear finery 
because he believes that that's 

1372
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:18,320
a waste of a waste of gold if it
could be put in the hands of the

1373
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,840
people. 
And he's also someone who drives

1374
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:23,920
all the sex workers and their 
children out of King's Landing 

1375
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,400
with nowhere to go and 
eventually wants to make war on 

1376
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:28,600
his people. 
What do you do with a person 

1377
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:30,440
like that? 
There's a lot of extremes there,

1378
01:15:30,440 --> 01:15:32,080
and there's a. 
Lot to unpack with that. 

1379
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:33,760
Well said. 
Absolutely. 

1380
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:39,360
Now continuing on the theme of 
Baylor being highly remembered 

1381
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:44,400
and name dropped and cited. 
And a theme amongst that theme 

1382
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:50,400
is that he's cited as the most 
you can do like the maximum, the

1383
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:55,000
guy who exemplifies several 
different ideals more so than 

1384
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:58,800
anyone else, which is why he 
gets name drops so often. 

1385
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:02,480
For example, none other than 
Barristan the bold quote. 

1386
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:07,440
No ruler can make a people good.
Selmy had told her Baylor the 

1387
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:11,840
Blessed prayed and fasted and 
built the seven as splendid a 

1388
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:16,920
temple as any gods could wish 
for, yet he could not put an end

1389
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,840
to war and want. 
The context of this quote is 

1390
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:25,520
Danny taking on a lot of 
responsibility and taking on 

1391
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:31,120
things that maybe she shouldn't 
or can't, and Barristan is very 

1392
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:33,640
interesting because of the level
of experience he brings to the 

1393
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:37,920
table in this regard. 
Compare him to Viserys, who had 

1394
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:40,680
the very difficult decision, 
arguably, of whether or not he 

1395
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,480
had to murder his own nephew to 
take the throne. 

1396
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:47,800
Someone like Barristan would 
have been not there at the time 

1397
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:50,440
because this was a different 
era, but there would have been 

1398
01:16:50,440 --> 01:16:53,160
Kings Guard Nights in a similar 
role who would have maybe been 

1399
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:58,480
aware of this conflict without 
the burden of having to be the 

1400
01:16:58,480 --> 01:17:01,520
one to make that call. 
But Barristan would be a very 

1401
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,440
good example of that, someone 
who was around for several kings

1402
01:17:04,440 --> 01:17:07,480
and saw a lot of dilemmas and 
saw Aries's descending madness 

1403
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:10,320
and things like that. 
So he's a very unique 

1404
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,640
perspective on this, a very 
learned and experienced 

1405
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:15,440
perspective. 
And unlike Viserys, we actually 

1406
01:17:15,440 --> 01:17:17,720
get direct quotes from him. 
So there's that too. 

1407
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:23,080
Now there's also the character 
of Lancel now as a a person, a 

1408
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:27,840
character in the story. 
He's maybe the best example, if 

1409
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:33,360
not of someone who is holy and 
pious, but someone who becomes 

1410
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:34,960
holy and pious, which isn't 
Baylor. 

1411
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:38,720
Baylor was always like that, but
in becoming a very holy slash 

1412
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,760
pious person. 
Lancel, of course, has a very 

1413
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:48,080
positive view on Baylor, as he 
says here, going a lot farther 

1414
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:52,400
than say, a Barristan Selmy or 
even maybe a Daenerys quote. 

1415
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:57,480
He was a rare spirit, pure and 
brave and innocent, untouched by

1416
01:17:57,480 --> 01:18:02,120
all the evils of the world. 
I am a Sinner with much and more

1417
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:05,200
to atone for. 
That's a bit over the top, but 

1418
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:12,240
again, this is the equivalent of
a born again in this world, 

1419
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,720
right? 
So he's very enthusiastic and 

1420
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,720
effusive about his beliefs. 
They're fresh, they're new to 

1421
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:25,200
him and he's he's all about it. 
In the context for this case 

1422
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:29,600
with Lancel, it's Jamie pointing
out a very good point, which is 

1423
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:32,120
there might not have been a 
Black Fire rebellion if Baylor 

1424
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:34,680
hadn't set aside his wife and 
actually had children with Dana 

1425
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:38,320
the Defiant rather than Dana the
Defiant having a child with one 

1426
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:42,800
of his other relatives. 
So that's it's not a bad point 

1427
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,440
by Jamie, I got to say. 
And and Jamie is also a King's 

1428
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:51,440
guard who has some very strong 
opinions on mad kings and such. 

1429
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,840
Now one day we'll have quotes 
from Blood and Fire, hopefully, 

1430
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,520
which will give us even more 
context on Baylor and that'll be

1431
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:01,920
great. 
But these quotes directly from 

1432
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,880
George R Martin, that's pretty 
good for now, in terms of things

1433
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,320
that you might not be directly 
aware of, y'all, For example, 

1434
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:12,480
this question, which is why 
didn't Bailor the Blessed, the 

1435
01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:17,240
Septon King, rearm the faith? 
Bailor the Blessed wasn't 

1436
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,480
interested in arming anyone. 
He would have preferred to 

1437
01:19:20,480 --> 01:19:24,600
disarm the entire world. 
He was a man of peace, and his 

1438
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,680
favorite weapon was a prayer. 
Yeah, that's that checks out, 

1439
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:29,600
doesn't it, Nina? 
Yes. 

1440
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:31,000
And no. 
And I and I don't mean to 

1441
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:32,320
disagree with the author on his 
own. 

1442
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:34,680
Character interesting. 
To do that. 

1443
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,440
But I think. 
I think there's a way in which 

1444
01:19:37,440 --> 01:19:39,360
there can be two truths at the 
same time. 

1445
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:40,680
Here I. 
I don't disagree. 

1446
01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:44,920
Obviously Baylor is a man of 
peace, we know that because he 

1447
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,960
literally walks hundreds of 
miles to Doran to make a peace. 

1448
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:50,400
So yes, 100% agreed on that 
aspect. 

1449
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:51,680
But. 
I think. 

1450
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:54,080
It is also worth considering 
he's not just. 

1451
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:57,400
A man of peace because again, 
the end of his life, he's. 

1452
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,280
Fully willing to go into war 
against his own people. 

1453
01:20:00,480 --> 01:20:03,040
So I don't think we can simply 
say, oh, man of peace, and 

1454
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:06,800
that's the end of the story. 
I think for Baylor, why he 

1455
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:08,960
didn't rearm the faith, why he 
doesn't restart the faith 

1456
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,320
Militant kind of goes hand in 
hand with. 

1457
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,920
What we were saying in terms of 
Baylor naming, essentially 

1458
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:19,120
naming the high Septons, naming 
Pate the stone Carver, and then 

1459
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:24,000
you know this, this young boy, I
think Baylor saw himself as 

1460
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,680
really the representative of the
gods on earth that. 

1461
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:30,920
In a real way. 
He's the voice of the Seven, not

1462
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:32,120
the high. 
Septon it goes. 

1463
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:35,960
Gods, then Baylor. 
Then the faith, then everybody 

1464
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:40,240
else, and in that order. 
And so if that's the case, then 

1465
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,240
maybe Baylor's thinking, why 
would I rearm the faith? 

1466
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:46,120
My armies are the armies of the 
faith. 

1467
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:48,920
If I tell someone to go 
somewhere, it's because I'm 

1468
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:51,360
doing what the gods want. 
I don't need the faith to. 

1469
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,920
Separately, run an army. 
Because. 

1470
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:58,320
I'm going to tell the faith in 
the entire realm what the gods 

1471
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:01,080
want, including if I need the 
army to go somewhere. 

1472
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:04,880
Now there's that saying. 
We are all familiar with the 

1473
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:07,960
Targaryens and madness and coin 
flips all that. 

1474
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:10,480
It, it might be exaggerated a 
bit because it's pretty hard to 

1475
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:13,480
argue that actually half of the 
Targaryens have been mad. 

1476
01:21:13,480 --> 01:21:15,200
It's it's not quite that 
extreme. 

1477
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:18,040
Even if you stretch it out a bit
and loosen the definition of 

1478
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:21,280
madness, you really, it's hard 
to get there, but it's hard to 

1479
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:23,520
argue as well that Baylor 
doesn't qualify like you. 

1480
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:25,480
You don't have to be loose with 
the definition of madness for 

1481
01:21:25,480 --> 01:21:29,680
that, but he kind of proves that
you can't simplify it too much. 

1482
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,440
As we've given with the examples
of Aries and and maybe Magor and

1483
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:40,520
some others, it's not so easy to
always define what madness is in

1484
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:42,640
just that context. 
You have to include other 

1485
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:45,800
factors like like violence. 
And as Nina pointed out, even 

1486
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:48,600
that isn't enough sometimes. 
You have to have maybe separated

1487
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:53,400
intent to be violent versus 
policies that inevitably lead to

1488
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:59,840
it through naivete or insanity 
in this case, since we're 

1489
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:05,400
talking about madness. 
So there's that same argument 

1490
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:08,800
that we have in the real world 
about the fine line between 

1491
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:11,360
madness and greatness, which I 
think George is playing off of 

1492
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,360
here. 
A lot of these Targaryens fall 

1493
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:16,640
into that category. 
Certainly not half of them were 

1494
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:18,440
great, just like not half of 
them were mad. 

1495
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:20,160
But that's that's beside the 
point. 

1496
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:25,240
Which Barristan heard from 
Jaharis the Second, by the way, 

1497
01:22:26,200 --> 01:22:29,640
the coin flip thing, it 
shouldn't be implied that you 

1498
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:31,680
can't be both mad and great, 
right? 

1499
01:22:32,440 --> 01:22:36,120
Aries was mad, certainly great. 
OK, he wasn't great, but he 

1500
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:41,320
would be very, very memorable if
he had actually succeeded in 

1501
01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:45,040
blowing up King's Landing. 
That would have been a quote UN 

1502
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:47,560
quote great achievement. 
Not a good thing to do. 

1503
01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:51,280
But like, wow, Oh my God, that 
one of the things that would 

1504
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:54,680
ring throughout history. 
I'm not sure Magor was mad or 

1505
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:58,200
great either, but there's some 
arguments for both. 

1506
01:22:58,200 --> 01:22:59,800
He certainly remembered more 
than most. 

1507
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:02,800
Again, because of these 
extremes, his legacy includes a 

1508
01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:07,160
lot of things that are actually 
somewhat similar to Baylor, as 

1509
01:23:07,160 --> 01:23:10,320
we said before, and here's a new
one, commissioning of buildings.

1510
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:13,240
That's that's something that 
Baylor and and Magor had a 

1511
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:17,120
little bit in common of, unlike 
Aries, who nearly destroyed not 

1512
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,760
just those buildings, but like 
everybody else and all the other

1513
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:23,720
buildings in the city, we're 
talking really important ones. 

1514
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:26,520
You know, Magor's hold fast and 
his tunnels and and the dragon 

1515
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:29,720
Pit, which, you know, that 
thing's still around, though not

1516
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:35,240
in a completed state anymore. 
Baylor, he had ideas. 

1517
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:40,000
And an Aries, Well, remember 
Aries, he he had suggestions. 

1518
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:41,960
He had, oh, yeah, I want to 
build beyond the wall. 

1519
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:44,200
Oh, I want to build King's 
Landing on the other side of the

1520
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,840
river. 
He just had these ideas and and 

1521
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:50,280
gave them up. 
Baylor was more consistent. 

1522
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:54,200
I'd say even though his ideas 
were maybe just as crazy, he 

1523
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:56,200
didn't just give up on them 
right away. 

1524
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,880
I don't think so. 
These different types of madness

1525
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:02,000
I think are an interesting 
subtopic within all this. 

1526
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:05,400
Amongst the Targaryens, Baylor 
again stands out as unique 

1527
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:10,360
because of his dedication to 
peace, even if it was misguided 

1528
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:13,360
at times. 
No other Targaryen really 

1529
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,760
matches him in that regard, 
except for maybe a, you know, 

1530
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:18,440
like a Jaharis or something like
that. 

1531
01:24:18,440 --> 01:24:21,120
What what, what do you think in 
that, in that comparison, like 

1532
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:26,400
a, a Jaharis to a Baylor? 
Perhaps the the one who's most 

1533
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:29,640
famous for creating peace would 
would be Jaharis, I think. 

1534
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:33,200
And to someone who like like a 
Baylor. 

1535
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:34,960
I guess Daron the second is. 
Really. 

1536
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:37,480
Yeah, that's a good one. 
And and Daron being directly 

1537
01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:39,480
influenced by Baylor is a big 
point. 

1538
01:24:39,480 --> 01:24:42,560
So yeah, tell us what you think 
about maybe that triumvirate, 

1539
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:44,640
maybe in Baylor being kind of in
between them like that. 

1540
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:48,280
Well, I think you know, and I 
was, I was thinking about. 

1541
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:50,200
This quote about, you know, sort
of the, the madness and 

1542
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:53,480
greatness and, and to your 
point, I, I don't find it a 

1543
01:24:53,480 --> 01:24:56,960
particularly useful paradigm to 
think about because. 

1544
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,560
As you mentioned, it doesn't 
really feel. 

1545
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:01,440
Applicable to most of the 
Targaryen. 

1546
01:25:01,440 --> 01:25:02,600
Kings. 
I mean, what do we do with a 

1547
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:04,800
king like an Anies or an 
heiress? 

1548
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,720
The first, they're not mad or 
great, they're just bad at their

1549
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:08,560
job. 
They shouldn't. 

1550
01:25:08,920 --> 01:25:11,560
Be king in the first place. 
What do we do with someone like 

1551
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,280
it's a Harris the second he's 
intelligent, but he doesn't rain

1552
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:15,880
very long, does he May always 
agree. 

1553
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:18,640
I don't think he's either. 
I think he's just maybe he would

1554
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:20,400
have been good if he had been in
better health. 

1555
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:22,960
I don't know. 
So, you know, I don't really 

1556
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:25,360
think. 
About it in terms of a useful 

1557
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:28,920
idea in that sense, in terms of 
well, let's put let's put all 

1558
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:31,560
take our Targaryen king toys and
we're going to put some of them 

1559
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:32,800
in this box. 
We're going to put some of them 

1560
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,880
in that box. 
But what I think it is useful 

1561
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:39,400
for in terms of thinking about 
this quote, is thinking about 

1562
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:43,640
what I'm going to call an 
extremely pretentious way, the 

1563
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:48,600
great and terrible burden of 
being a Targaryen, specifically 

1564
01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:51,960
being a Targaryen king. 
Because it's not just. 

1565
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:56,160
Being king, it's not just being 
at the top of the political food

1566
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:59,520
chain in in Westeros, having the
most power, having the most 

1567
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:03,560
authority, having the ability to
command the lives and deaths of,

1568
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:06,280
you know. 10s of thousands or 
millions of subjects. 

1569
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:11,640
That's all very true, obviously,
but it's also being heir to this

1570
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:16,800
legacy of dragonlords that no 
one in Westeros. 

1571
01:26:16,840 --> 01:26:19,320
Yes, there were many kings in 
Westeros before the Conquest, 

1572
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:22,720
but there was never a family of 
dragonlords before the Conquest.

1573
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:27,600
And that's a level of 
supernatural power and authority

1574
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:31,400
that really no one can have an 
idea about. 

1575
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:34,120
And really no one can say, oh, 
my family had a similar 

1576
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:37,320
experience to that. 
It's it's a really unique 

1577
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:41,920
history and legacy in this world
and specifically in in Westeros.

1578
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:44,760
And the reason I bring it up 
here, the reason I think about 

1579
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:49,080
that, that quote in that context
is because again, and I've said 

1580
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:50,400
it again and again and again, 
I'm going to. 

1581
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:51,480
Keep saying it. 
Again and again. 

1582
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:55,960
What we're looking at with 
Baylor is this first generation 

1583
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,840
of Targaryens to be born after 
the Dance, and so in real time, 

1584
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:04,960
what Baylor and his siblings and
cousins are struggling with. 

1585
01:27:05,480 --> 01:27:10,280
Is this change in the conception
of what it means to be a 

1586
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:13,920
Targaryen that is happening in 
real time? 

1587
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:18,120
When Baylor is born, there is 
still at least one dragon alive.

1588
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:21,640
And when Baylor dies, there are 
no more Dragons. 

1589
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:26,240
He lives to see the extinction. 
Of the creatures that made. 

1590
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,920
His family great and powerful in
Valyria. 

1591
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:34,000
What do you do when your parents
generation had Dragons and road 

1592
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,880
Dragons and then the Dragons are
gone? 

1593
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:39,160
How do you? 
Define yourself as a Targaryen 

1594
01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:42,160
and a Targaryen king. 
After that, there's, there's no 

1595
01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:44,600
precedent. 
Baylor and his siblings and 

1596
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:47,880
cousins are writing the playbook
in real time. 

1597
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:52,120
And so I think it, it leaves 
Baylor and again, along with, 

1598
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:54,800
along with Aaron, along with 
Egon the 4th, along with the 

1599
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:58,480
other Targaryens in this 
generation caught in this sort 

1600
01:27:58,480 --> 01:28:01,320
of liminal place. 
They're, they're wanting to 

1601
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:05,680
live, I think for better or for 
worse, in this grand scale of 

1602
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,880
their dragon Lord ancestors. 
But they don't have Dragons. 

1603
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:11,320
They don't have that power. 
They don't have that authority. 

1604
01:28:11,320 --> 01:28:14,400
They don't have that legacy. 
They just have the memory of 

1605
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:18,000
this legacy. 
And so I think for Baylor, 

1606
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:21,800
that's why I think of him as 
this character of extremes, 

1607
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:25,440
because he's trying to wrestle 
with those extremes that are, 

1608
01:28:25,440 --> 01:28:28,240
that are present in that legacy.
He's trying to say. 

1609
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:31,560
I want to rule with all of the 
power and all the authority and 

1610
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,320
all the grand ideas of someone 
like a Jaharis the 1st. 

1611
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:36,320
But I don't actually have a 
dragon. 

1612
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:38,360
To make those things happen 
again. 

1613
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:43,280
For better or worse, and. 
So I'm trying to do that while 

1614
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:47,600
struggling along as. 
A dragon rider in a dragonless 

1615
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,720
age. 
He's someone who believed what 

1616
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,400
he was doing. 
Was for the good of the realm, 

1617
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:55,520
who fully believed that he was 
the. 

1618
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:59,480
Agent of the Seven on Earth, and
who was not going to be gained 

1619
01:28:59,480 --> 01:29:01,600
said by anyone. 
No one could tell. 

1620
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:04,840
Baylor what to do? 
Yeah, you see his older brother 

1621
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:10,160
trying to perhaps re establish 
Targaryen supremacy by 

1622
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:15,120
conquering Dorn with men, 
whereas it had failed with 

1623
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:16,920
Dragons. 
And he, you know, almost pulled 

1624
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:21,240
it off. 
And now his brother Baylor is 

1625
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:25,800
turning to an entirely different
form of power, which is the 

1626
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:28,840
gods. 
And there's arguably nothing 

1627
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:30,880
more powerful than that. 
They're the greatest authority. 

1628
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:37,680
And this culminates in a new 
topic, a new subtopic, the idea 

1629
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:40,920
of greatness, which is difficult
to define, as we've discovered, 

1630
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:42,600
along with the concept of 
madness. 

1631
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:46,920
But some things are in arguably 
great just because, well, it's 

1632
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:49,720
in the name. 
And I refer to our next subject,

1633
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:56,960
the Great Sept of Bailor. 
Now, if you live in King's 

1634
01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:01,640
Landing or visited frequently, 
Baylor's going to be on your 

1635
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:06,040
mind a lot because this Sept is 
huge and it's loud. 

1636
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:07,720
The bells are going to ring 
every day. 

1637
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:10,760
I mean, that's you get daily 
reminders of this guy. 

1638
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:15,720
Not only did his actual deeds 
during his life ring out and are

1639
01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,240
still remembered, but you have 
this backing that up. 

1640
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:21,920
That's a huge thing. 
And it's literally a huge thing.

1641
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:24,680
The Great Sept is named so 
because it's immense. 

1642
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:27,720
It's like I said, it's harder to
apply to people, but this is a 

1643
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:30,080
monstrous building. 
It's completely fair to call it 

1644
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:31,720
great. 
It's like arguing that Gregor 

1645
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:34,160
Clegane isn't a large human. 
That's silly. 

1646
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:39,320
It's definitely true. 
So it's also called Baylor Sept.

1647
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:42,680
It's got a lot of nicknames. 
This is where, again, we get 

1648
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:44,960
back to Baylor and Megor having 
some similarity. 

1649
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:48,880
Pacifist versus warmonger. 
Yes, Megor fought against the 

1650
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:52,720
faith, while Baylor upheld it 
more than any anybody ever else.

1651
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:55,480
They both thought very big when 
it came to building. 

1652
01:30:55,480 --> 01:30:58,240
You got the dragon pit, 
basically the largest building 

1653
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:02,760
in the in the in the land until 
this came along, which is the 

1654
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:04,880
biggest of its kind ever. 
So you got a giant House of 

1655
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:10,120
Dragons, a giant House of the 
seven similar concepts 1 is the 

1656
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:13,960
thing outside of their humanity 
that they claim to give them 

1657
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,480
authority over everyone else, 
whether it's Dragons, whether 

1658
01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:20,000
it's the gods. 
Yeah, that's, that's kind of it 

1659
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:22,400
in a nutshell, isn't it? 
Well, it is, and it's sort of. 

1660
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:24,000
This it goes. 
You know what I was saying 

1661
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:26,840
before this sort of perfect 
dichotomy of Baylor where? 

1662
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:27,840
On the one. 
Hand. 

1663
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:32,200
I think that Baylor genuinely 
believes that the reason there 

1664
01:31:32,200 --> 01:31:35,520
are no more Dragons is because 
the gods were angry with the 

1665
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:37,360
Targaryens because of their 
incest. 

1666
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:39,680
That the gods were angry that 
the Targaryens were promoting 

1667
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:42,840
the doctrine of exceptionalism 
using the Dragons, and so 

1668
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:45,480
decided to get rid of the 
Dragons to punish the 

1669
01:31:45,480 --> 01:31:48,640
Targaryens. 
So on the one hand, the Great 

1670
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:52,120
Sept of Baylor is the answer to 
the dragon Pit. 

1671
01:31:52,120 --> 01:31:55,560
It's saying no, I am. 
I'm rejecting the Dragon Pit on 

1672
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:58,560
the opposite hill. 
I am going to build the greatest

1673
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:00,520
temple to the faith in the whole
land. 

1674
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:04,200
I'm going to show in brick and 
mortar and stone. 

1675
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:08,080
I am worshipping the Seven. 
Now we are rededicating the 

1676
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,880
realm not to the Dragons, but to
the Seven. 

1677
01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:13,440
And yet. 
He doesn't get rid of the dragon

1678
01:32:13,440 --> 01:32:15,120
pit. 
Now maybe practically he 

1679
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:16,640
couldn't have. 
I don't I don't know how 

1680
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:19,280
practical would have been trying
to get rid of it, but he doesn't

1681
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:21,240
get rid of it. 
And again, we know that Baylor 

1682
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:23,000
does try to hatch Dragons at 
some point. 

1683
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:27,080
So I think there is still this 
wrestling with this legacy of. 

1684
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:31,040
Well the seven got rid of our 
Dragons because they were man 

1685
01:32:31,040 --> 01:32:33,720
and we have to rededicate 
ourselves but we are still. 

1686
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:37,240
Targaryen So we do still like 
those Dragons in the memory of 

1687
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:39,880
those Dragons. 
So we're going to leave the 

1688
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:44,360
dragon pit as sort of that 
legacy to there and and just 

1689
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:48,120
leave it as is it. 
And it's this, it's the, it's 

1690
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:50,080
the dichotomy in in building 
form. 

1691
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,760
I love that idea of Baylor 
because he prays over the 

1692
01:32:52,760 --> 01:32:54,480
Dragon's eggs. 
Like you say, that is kind of a 

1693
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:57,480
a strange, like hard thing to 
parse there because they don't 

1694
01:32:57,480 --> 01:33:00,680
exactly fit. 
But of course, he's conflicted 

1695
01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:04,280
guy on on some ways, not when it
comes to the faith, but if he's 

1696
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:08,280
like, well, if the gods say it's
OK, then it's OK. 

1697
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,480
So I'm going to ask them, I'll 
just pray over the the eggs and 

1698
01:33:11,480 --> 01:33:14,480
if they hatch, then clearly the 
the gods are cool with it. 

1699
01:33:14,480 --> 01:33:16,200
So why no? 
Why? 

1700
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:17,760
There's no harm in asking, 
right? 

1701
01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:22,120
Another funny thing these two 
have in common is that these 

1702
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:24,920
huge projects that they started,
neither of them live to see them

1703
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:28,720
completed. 
This isn't that unusual for 

1704
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:35,320
large scale building projects in
a medieval issue type setting 

1705
01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:39,000
because, well, I don't know 
about the dragon pit. 

1706
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:41,880
There's maybe not a lot of real 
world comparisons we can make to

1707
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:43,240
that so easily. 
Maybe there are. 

1708
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:47,120
I just as an architect, as a non
architect rather, I don't really

1709
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:49,720
know where to start with that. 
It's a little easier with the 

1710
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:52,280
Sep because it's a lot like a 
real life cathedral, isn't it, 

1711
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:54,040
Nina? 
Which we have lots of examples 

1712
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:56,120
of and those take a long time to
build, don't they? 

1713
01:33:56,120 --> 01:34:00,080
And well, they do. 
And The thing is with this I, I 

1714
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:04,720
tend to think that the Sept was 
completed or mostly completed by

1715
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:09,640
about 187, because this is when 
they're on the 2nd and Marin 

1716
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:12,960
Martel rise, the Great Sept, 
they lay this wreath at the foot

1717
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:15,920
of Baylor's statue. 
I'm guessing that means the Sept

1718
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:19,040
was more or less done at this 
point. 

1719
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:23,360
Which might seem like a really 
short amount of time if we're 

1720
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:28,520
thinking of something along the 
lines of, I don't know, insert 

1721
01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:33,000
any given medieval cathedral 
here and, and this is built in 

1722
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:36,520
what the better part of 1720 
years? 

1723
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:38,240
That's a really short time 
frame. 

1724
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:41,800
But I don't really care because 
in this sense, I don't really 

1725
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,280
care if George Robert sort of 
cheats the timeline because it 

1726
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:47,760
works narratively in terms of 
what he wants to accomplish. 

1727
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:52,120
Daron is Baylor's spiritual 
successor, and in every meaning 

1728
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:54,760
of the word. 
And I think you need. 

1729
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:59,440
Aeron to be the one who sees the
completion of this because he is

1730
01:34:59,440 --> 01:35:02,840
also seeing the completion of 
Baylor's political legacy, which

1731
01:35:02,840 --> 01:35:06,040
is this piece with Dorn so. 
Yeah, the key to the. 

1732
01:35:06,040 --> 01:35:07,360
Timeline. 
A little maybe. 

1733
01:35:07,440 --> 01:35:08,880
Do I care? 
Not really. 

1734
01:35:09,160 --> 01:35:13,040
We can argue it was like a like 
a Return of the Jedi situation 

1735
01:35:13,040 --> 01:35:16,440
where it wasn't fully completed 
but that thing was operational. 

1736
01:35:16,440 --> 01:35:19,120
Like they can still have 
weddings and ceremonies in it 

1737
01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:23,000
even if they're still painting 
the windows or installing 

1738
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:27,960
filigree on the archways. 
Or I just coming up with terms. 

1739
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:29,120
I don't even know what I'm 
saying here. 

1740
01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:31,640
They're laying, they're laying 
the bricks as the horses are 

1741
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:32,880
walking. 
Over. 

1742
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:33,880
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

1743
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:37,600
So who know? 
Or maybe the Smith actually did 

1744
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:40,440
answer some prayers and come 
down and just like, get to work 

1745
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:42,160
you. 
Know what? 

1746
01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:44,560
Maybe, maybe that child Septon 
actually could talk to the. 

1747
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:46,440
Gods, maybe, Maybe. 
That's what happened. 

1748
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:49,600
He was a stone mate, and there's
that stone Mason one, right? 

1749
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:50,520
Yeah. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1750
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:51,960
Yeah, you know what? 
That's what it. 

1751
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:56,640
Was it all adds up Actually 
we've we solved it but but if we

1752
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:01,400
Fast forward to story in current
times, meaning a song of ice and

1753
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:04,520
fire well past Daron and these 
other characters who inherited 

1754
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:08,160
Baylor's legacy. 
This is where Ned was executed. 

1755
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:10,960
Quote. 
Let the High Septon and Bay 

1756
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:14,680
Lord, the Beloved and the Seven 
bear witness to the truth of 

1757
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:18,360
what I say. 
Joffrey Baratheon is the one 

1758
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:22,920
true heir to the Iron Throne and
by the grace of all the gods, 

1759
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:26,560
Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and 
protector of the realm. 

1760
01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:29,320
This was a big problem for the 
Faith afterwards. 

1761
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:33,240
Like Ned said what he had to say
and Joffrey had his head cut off

1762
01:36:33,240 --> 01:36:35,640
anyway. 
But you're not supposed to be 

1763
01:36:35,640 --> 01:36:38,600
killing people in front of 
Baylor. 

1764
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:41,040
I mean, the whole look what we 
just got through talking about 

1765
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:43,320
what the man stands for. 
You're not he's not a place of 

1766
01:36:43,440 --> 01:36:45,920
this is not a place for blood 
and executions. 

1767
01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:50,320
This is a place for peace and 
contemplation and joinings and 

1768
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:55,240
alliances and marriages and, 
yeah, positive things, uplifting

1769
01:36:55,240 --> 01:36:59,640
things, not not death. 
So you you can see already what 

1770
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:04,960
George was doing with that scene
and having it be not just 

1771
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:10,480
Joffrey and perhaps Littlefinger
pushing him into it, trampling 

1772
01:37:10,480 --> 01:37:14,680
on this carefully laid plan of 
that several people were were 

1773
01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:19,360
involved in. 
But also just ignoring an 

1774
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,080
important political 
consideration, which is the the 

1775
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:25,720
happiness of the faith and the 
the high Septon and the the most

1776
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:27,840
about they're a very important 
political body. 

1777
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:30,400
And Joffrey didn't think about 
them even for a second. 

1778
01:37:30,480 --> 01:37:35,560
So Cersei also began her walk of
shame there, which is maybe also

1779
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:38,840
not so in line with the positive
things. 

1780
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:41,840
And yeah, under the under the 
High Sparrow, maybe we see more 

1781
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:45,200
of these punishments and, and 
things that are also maybe not 

1782
01:37:45,200 --> 01:37:48,040
what Baylor had in mind. 
Baylor, we don't hear about him 

1783
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:51,320
really torturing people or, or 
inflicting punishment. 

1784
01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:54,120
He inflicted it on himself. 
But I don't know, how do you 

1785
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:58,360
feel about this in terms of 
torture and punishment as a as a

1786
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:03,080
device that's used by certain 
rulers or leaders under the 

1787
01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:06,440
guise of being faithful vis a 
vis Baylor? 

1788
01:38:06,440 --> 01:38:08,360
I don't think we've really 
talked about that specifically. 

1789
01:38:08,480 --> 01:38:11,920
I don't know how how much Baylor
would have looked at or would 

1790
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:12,560
have. 
Used it. 

1791
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:15,080
Certainly that's not what comes 
down in the in the popular 

1792
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:18,640
imagination, but at the same 
time, if we look at the high. 

1793
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:22,320
Sparrow, as someone who very 
clearly takes Baylor as an 

1794
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:25,880
inspiration, very clearly thinks
of himself as, you know, 

1795
01:38:25,960 --> 01:38:27,680
inspired by Baylor. 
I don't. 

1796
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:29,440
Know that it would have been 
that far away. 

1797
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:34,120
Obviously, Baylor is. 
You know, punishing himself very

1798
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:36,760
severely and very physically 
for, you know, what he believes 

1799
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:39,240
are his sins or the sins of the 
realm, but. 

1800
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:42,080
They also does a lot of things 
that I'm not. 

1801
01:38:42,080 --> 01:38:45,320
Sure are that far away from what
we see happen under the High 

1802
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:47,360
Sparrow in say, if he's for 
Crows or Dance with Dragons. 

1803
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:50,960
We see him, you know, again. 
He literally imprisons his 

1804
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:53,040
sisters for the better part of 
10 years. 

1805
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,640
I I don't know how. 
Comfortable the Maiden Vault 

1806
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:58,600
was, or wasn't, or what they 
were subject to on any given day

1807
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:00,840
in the Maiden Vault, but at very
least. 

1808
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:05,680
They're not free to go. 
Which is already a form of, you 

1809
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:08,040
know, unwilling imprisonment. 
He's also. 

1810
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:11,080
Promoting the use of. 
Chastity belts, which again we 

1811
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:12,720
talked about are are not a real 
historical. 

1812
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:15,400
Thing, but in the context of 
this universe are not a nice 

1813
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:18,120
thing to put. 
On girls and women, and he's 

1814
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,240
promoting that actively. 
And he's also not. 

1815
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:27,840
Afraid to make his courtiers 
perform public acts of service 

1816
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:29,000
that. 
They don't want to do. 

1817
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:31,640
Now again, I'm not saying that 
that's torture, but he's 

1818
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:34,360
certainly not afraid to make 
people do things that he 

1819
01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:37,280
believes they need to do that 
they themselves would never do, 

1820
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:39,120
because he believes that's what 
the gods want. 

1821
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:41,280
Absolutely. 
I think that's very true, and 

1822
01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:44,200
it's easy to frame it if you 
think about what we discussed 

1823
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:47,880
very early on in the series, 
which is that Baylor puts faith 

1824
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:49,800
above everything else. 
Yes, he's a man of peace, but he

1825
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:51,160
puts faith even higher than 
that. 

1826
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:56,760
And if he believes that pain or 
suffering is purifying in 

1827
01:39:56,760 --> 01:40:00,560
certain cases or brings you 
closer to the gods, then that's.

1828
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:03,800
It's worth it it he won't think 
of it as cruel. 

1829
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:07,320
Even if someone is suffering, if
he believes the end result is 

1830
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:12,400
holiness or a positive 
connection to the greater above,

1831
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:14,040
you know that the seven 
themselves or something like 

1832
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:15,480
that. 
So yeah, you can you can see how

1833
01:40:15,480 --> 01:40:19,360
it could be justified in a lot 
of cases, given that he was 

1834
01:40:19,360 --> 01:40:21,800
willing to do things like kick 
all the sex workers out, that's 

1835
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:24,640
that's inflicting punishment on 
them. 

1836
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:28,440
Maybe he's too naive to to think
that they'll suffer, but the 

1837
01:40:28,440 --> 01:40:32,680
rest of us can pretty easily see
that that would be more than an 

1838
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:34,440
ordeal. 
They're effectively refugees 

1839
01:40:34,440 --> 01:40:37,560
with with almost nowhere to go 
and are extremely vulnerable. 

1840
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:39,400
So. 
So that's a big deal. 

1841
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,000
Now, what do we think about the 
idea that the Sept will be 

1842
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:45,120
destroyed? 
Because it would be rather 

1843
01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:46,560
symbolic. 
It doesn't have to be the same 

1844
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:49,120
circumstances as the TV show. 
Obviously it could be very 

1845
01:40:49,120 --> 01:40:52,760
different, but the Pirate 
Ranchers Guild is below it in 

1846
01:40:52,760 --> 01:40:57,240
the tunnel, so it is located 
kind of conveniently for a 

1847
01:40:57,400 --> 01:41:00,480
conflagration to happen. 
We've already got Cersei messing

1848
01:41:00,480 --> 01:41:03,320
with the forces like that again,
the parallel to Aries. 

1849
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:07,240
We've gotten multiple examples 
of caches of wildfire that 

1850
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:09,400
weren't discovered that were 
left behind. 

1851
01:41:09,400 --> 01:41:11,520
The Jamie didn't find or the 
other guys didn't find. 

1852
01:41:11,760 --> 01:41:15,200
So there's a lot of possibility 
here. 

1853
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:18,640
It would be kind of interesting 
to have the most peaceful king, 

1854
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:23,160
to have his greatest work or 
most standing monument thing 

1855
01:41:23,160 --> 01:41:27,680
he's most remembered for, just 
fiery destruction that that 

1856
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:30,000
would be pretty meaningful and 
symbolic, maybe the kind of 

1857
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:31,720
thing George wants to do. 
What do you think? 

1858
01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:34,840
Oh, 100%. 
I mean, I have said it for a 

1859
01:41:34,840 --> 01:41:38,160
long time and I will continue 
saying it I very firmly. 

1860
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:42,080
Believe that the. 
The entirety of King's Landing, 

1861
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:45,480
including the great set of 
Baylor, is going to be blown up,

1862
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:48,760
and it is going to be blown up 
in something close to an atomic 

1863
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:51,240
explosion thanks to all of this 
wildfire. 

1864
01:41:51,240 --> 01:41:54,760
And it's going to be set off, 
not intentionally, to be clear, 

1865
01:41:54,760 --> 01:41:57,920
to be absolutely clear, not 
intentionally, but it's going to

1866
01:41:57,920 --> 01:41:59,800
be set off by Danny with her 
dragon. 

1867
01:41:59,840 --> 01:42:03,800
And I think why that works 
narratively for me is because, 

1868
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:06,920
you know, again, I do not at all
think this is going to be 

1869
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:09,240
intentional on Danny's purse. 
He obviously doesn't know that 

1870
01:42:09,240 --> 01:42:12,000
this exists. 
But I think what is going to 

1871
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,880
horrify her about this and just 
utterly, you know, really, 

1872
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:20,520
really deeply affect her is that
not only are all of these 

1873
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:23,440
people, you know, suffering and 
dying, which is obviously going 

1874
01:42:23,440 --> 01:42:27,280
to affect her very, very deeply,
but also this is her family's 

1875
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:29,440
legacy. 
This is the city that her 

1876
01:42:29,440 --> 01:42:31,040
ancestor, Aidan the Conqueror 
built. 

1877
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:33,880
This is his city. 
With his castle, with his iron 

1878
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:37,200
throne, she's blown it up. 
And now this is Baylor Sepp. 

1879
01:42:37,200 --> 01:42:39,880
This is his legacy. 
This is his grand monument to 

1880
01:42:39,880 --> 01:42:43,640
the gods blown up. 
And I, I genuinely believe that 

1881
01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:47,440
this is going to be a, you know,
really deeply affecting moment 

1882
01:42:47,440 --> 01:42:49,360
where Danny thinks, is this who 
I am? 

1883
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:53,280
Is this All I can do is just 
destroy everything that I 

1884
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:55,760
ostensibly hold to? 
Now, again, I think he's going 

1885
01:42:55,760 --> 01:42:59,120
to have a heroic arc in the end.
But I think that there that is 

1886
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:01,640
going to be a moment in probably
a dream spring. 

1887
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:05,480
Yeah, I could really see that if
she wouldn't be targeting that 

1888
01:43:05,480 --> 01:43:06,840
building, there'd be no reason 
to. 

1889
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:09,600
But oops, you know, and then 
people would, obviously people 

1890
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:12,120
would blame it on her, the 
person that maybe had brought 

1891
01:43:12,120 --> 01:43:13,520
some of the fire there in the 
1st place. 

1892
01:43:14,080 --> 01:43:15,360
Very. 
Seems very possible. 

1893
01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:20,080
And to back the idea up, we even
have Jamie thinking of when he's

1894
01:43:20,080 --> 01:43:23,840
kind of reminiscing, for lack of
a better word, on the wildfire 

1895
01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:26,600
plot. 
He beneath Baylor's Sept was 

1896
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:29,240
absolutely one of the places 
where it was planted. 

1897
01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:33,040
So all we have to have is one of
these caches being missed, which

1898
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:36,120
as I just said a minute ago, 
there's 2 examples of caches 

1899
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:38,400
being discovered during the time
of the books alone. 

1900
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:41,800
So there's been 17 years 
between. 

1901
01:43:41,800 --> 01:43:45,880
So yeah, uh huh. 
In Brienne's first chapter, she 

1902
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:49,280
meets this group of worshippers 
who are bringing bones to 

1903
01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:52,000
Blessed Baylor. 
His Sept, the Sept we've just 

1904
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:56,160
discussed, of course, in the 
group is the future High 

1905
01:43:56,160 --> 01:43:57,560
Sparrow. 
This is right before he takes 

1906
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:59,720
power. 
He actually calms his followers 

1907
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:02,240
when they grow angry because 
they're like, Hey, why don't you

1908
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:03,520
join us? 
We could use your help. 

1909
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:05,600
And they're like, Nah, we got we
got places to go. 

1910
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:07,320
We're not going that way. 
And some of them get kind of 

1911
01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:09,160
angry. 
They're like, hey, we're they 

1912
01:44:09,160 --> 01:44:12,120
already are a little uppity. 
They're already kind of, you 

1913
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:15,080
know, wielding their new power a
little inappropriately. 

1914
01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:17,600
But to his credit, thy Sparrow 
calms him down. 

1915
01:44:17,600 --> 01:44:22,240
But obviously he now maybe power
seems to have already gone to 

1916
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:24,200
his head because this is before 
he's installed. 

1917
01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:29,480
And he does give off some Baylor
vibes, as we said, in terms of 

1918
01:44:29,480 --> 01:44:33,280
his humble bearing and being 
very common or focused and 

1919
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:39,840
seemingly that's who matters 
most and and keeping his eye on 

1920
01:44:39,840 --> 01:44:42,720
the gods for most of all. 
But it's a very violent man. 

1921
01:44:42,720 --> 01:44:46,840
He's different in that regard. 
Baylor, even if Baylor's memory 

1922
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:49,600
is sanitized a bit, we don't 
have, I think it's pretty safe 

1923
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:54,400
to say the book version of the 
High Sparrow is willing to go a 

1924
01:44:54,400 --> 01:44:56,160
lot farther. 
I mean, he the, the torture 

1925
01:44:56,160 --> 01:45:00,560
we've seen the, the, the words 
he's spoken, the yeah, would 

1926
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,520
would you agree with that? 
I'm still holding out that 

1927
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:06,040
there's there may be more to 
Baylor and and he may be, you 

1928
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:10,200
know, more more violent up into,
you know, this actual 

1929
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:13,080
declaration of war against his 
own people that we don't know 

1930
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:15,880
about. 
I, I don't know, I, I think that

1931
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:18,840
there's ways in which the High 
Sparrow and Baylor may not have 

1932
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:21,400
been particularly different men.
Because I think, you know, the 

1933
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:24,240
one thing that we can say about 
the High Sparrow, I, I don't 

1934
01:45:24,240 --> 01:45:26,520
believe that he's a charlatan. 
I don't believe that he's 

1935
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,520
someone who's just pretending to
be pious just because he wants 

1936
01:45:29,520 --> 01:45:32,520
power. 
I think he genuinely believes 

1937
01:45:32,600 --> 01:45:36,200
everything he is saying that he 
genuinely believes. 

1938
01:45:36,320 --> 01:45:40,000
He is the agent of the gods. 
He knows what the gods want and 

1939
01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:41,360
he's going to put that into 
practice. 

1940
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:45,320
And everything he is doing is 
for what he believes is, you 

1941
01:45:45,320 --> 01:45:47,640
know, the will and the benefit. 
Of the gods, whether or not you 

1942
01:45:47,640 --> 01:45:49,920
know you agree with that is a 
completely separate point. 

1943
01:45:50,520 --> 01:45:52,520
But I I don't believe that he's 
a hypocrite. 

1944
01:45:52,520 --> 01:45:53,720
I don't believe that he's 
charlatan. 

1945
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:55,200
I don't believe that he's making
it up. 

1946
01:45:55,240 --> 01:45:59,680
And similar with Baylor. 
I think Baylor very, very, very 

1947
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:03,320
genuinely believed everything he
was doing and that everything he

1948
01:46:03,320 --> 01:46:06,960
did was justified because he was
doing it for the will of the 

1949
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:09,080
gods. 
Let's move on to our next 

1950
01:46:09,080 --> 01:46:16,840
section, de facto St. 
So he's the prime example for 

1951
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:20,480
several virtues, as we said, and
that makes him maybe the in 

1952
01:46:20,480 --> 01:46:23,920
world equivalent of a concept 
that doesn't necessarily exist 

1953
01:46:23,920 --> 01:46:26,800
in Westeros, but one that we 
kind of understand. 

1954
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:31,800
Now, here's a particular example
of that, the concept this time 

1955
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:36,200
being abstinence. 
And our example is the soiled 

1956
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:39,640
knight Sir Arias Oakhart, right 
here. 

1957
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:43,640
SER Arias heard faint music 
drifting through louvered 

1958
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:47,880
windows as he passed below, and 
somewhere finger drums were 

1959
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:52,000
beating out the quick rhythm of 
a spear dance, giving the night 

1960
01:46:52,120 --> 01:46:54,920
a pulse. 
Where 3 alleys met beneath the 

1961
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:59,600
second of the winding walls, a 
pillow girl called down from a 

1962
01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:02,240
balcony. 
She was dressed in jewels and 

1963
01:47:02,240 --> 01:47:04,880
oil. 
He took a look at her, hunched 

1964
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:08,640
his shoulders and pushed on into
the teeth of the wind. 

1965
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:13,600
We men are so weak, our bodies 
betray even the noblest of us. 

1966
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:16,960
He thought of King Baylor, the 
blessed who had fast to the 

1967
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:20,560
point of fainting to tame the 
lusts that shamed him. 

1968
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:24,480
Must he do the same? 
Another example of a person just

1969
01:47:24,480 --> 01:47:28,160
thinking of Baylor as the 
example of of being shamed by 

1970
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,880
lust and how he went to extremes
to manage that. 

1971
01:47:31,880 --> 01:47:34,680
And this is really difficult. 
You you think of Baylor as the 

1972
01:47:34,680 --> 01:47:38,040
prime example and and realizing 
that, yeah, even he couldn't 

1973
01:47:38,040 --> 01:47:40,040
succeed. 
Even Baylor couldn't tame his 

1974
01:47:40,040 --> 01:47:42,320
own lusts. 
What a thing to have to realize 

1975
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:45,200
and believe in the most pious 
and holy guy. 

1976
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:47,440
Even he couldn't control his 
thoughts like that. 

1977
01:47:47,440 --> 01:47:51,440
So that might be sort of a well,
what the hell are you supposed 

1978
01:47:51,440 --> 01:47:54,320
to do kind of realization for 
some people like, like 

1979
01:47:54,320 --> 01:47:56,520
apparently, Sir RSO card, who's 
having these thoughts in this 

1980
01:47:56,520 --> 01:47:58,160
moment. 
If Baylor can't do it, then what

1981
01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:00,200
chance do I have? 
Maybe that's part of why he just

1982
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:02,080
gives in. 
From another angle, one might 

1983
01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:06,800
argue that, well, fasting didn't
work, or it worked in the sense 

1984
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:11,880
that being extremely sick and 
weak works, you know, but that's

1985
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:13,520
no way to live. 
And it's certainly not an 

1986
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:16,560
example that a common person can
follow or a Kingsguard knight 

1987
01:48:16,560 --> 01:48:19,600
who cannot be extremely sick and
weak. 

1988
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:23,320
That's not going to work for 
that job description. 

1989
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:27,800
You can't spend all day praying 
and fasting if you have a 

1990
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:30,560
kindergard or if you're a 
peasant that has to work the 

1991
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:34,080
land. 
So in a sense, that's his 

1992
01:48:34,080 --> 01:48:36,400
example is just beyond everyone 
else, which is part of the 

1993
01:48:36,400 --> 01:48:38,640
point. 
This is a king that takes 

1994
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:42,640
responsibility for or took 
responsibility for the soul of 

1995
01:48:42,640 --> 01:48:44,800
his nation by doing things that 
no one else could. 

1996
01:48:45,240 --> 01:48:48,000
His Holiness was meant to be 
unmatched. 

1997
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:50,240
That was part of the point. 
It isn't just something to 

1998
01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:52,200
strive for. 
It's something, you know, you 

1999
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:54,360
can't reach. 
Who could be Baylor except 

2000
01:48:54,360 --> 01:48:56,160
Baylor. 
So yeah, it's interesting to 

2001
01:48:56,160 --> 01:48:56,880
think about. 
Yeah. 

2002
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,840
They don't have the concept of 
sainthood, but this he really is

2003
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:03,080
in all ways basically that 
without the word for it, isn't 

2004
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:04,920
he? 
Yeah, and and it is interesting.

2005
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:07,640
Because you're right, the 
Faithless 7 doesn't have Saints.

2006
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:10,400
They don't have specific holy 
figures. 

2007
01:49:10,760 --> 01:49:14,320
And yet there is Baylor, and I 
think you make an interesting 

2008
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:18,080
and a good point there in the 
Baylor's legacy it is. 

2009
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:22,480
Almost one of, you know, 
purposeful inability to retake. 

2010
01:49:22,480 --> 01:49:24,960
You know you can't actually ever
become Baylor. 

2011
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:27,080
You can only strive to be 
Baylor. 

2012
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:29,600
You know, whatever Baylor 
actually was in life. 

2013
01:49:30,120 --> 01:49:32,920
In death and in legacy, he's so 
much more than that. 

2014
01:49:32,920 --> 01:49:35,600
He's so much more elevated 
above, you know, what the 

2015
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:37,560
Westeros characters might call 
the common run of men. 

2016
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:40,440
And it's that's reflected in the
way that he's remembered. 

2017
01:49:40,760 --> 01:49:44,360
We basically never hear about 
Baylor except when he's called 

2018
01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:47,880
Baylor, the blessed Baylor, the 
beloved, the Septon King, 

2019
01:49:48,160 --> 01:49:52,240
blessed Baylor, beloved Baylor. 
He has these epithets that are 

2020
01:49:52,400 --> 01:49:55,600
almost more important than him 
becoming king. 

2021
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:59,160
It's not just that he was in the
role of Targaryen kings. 

2022
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:02,120
He is the saintly Targaryen 
king. 

2023
01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:05,880
He's the holy Targaryen king, He
is the king who is remembered 

2024
01:50:05,880 --> 01:50:12,360
for his piety above all else. 
And so Baylor becomes this model

2025
01:50:12,360 --> 01:50:15,200
of, again, what we'll call de 
facto sainthood. 

2026
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,680
He is something for all faithful
to try to attain, even more so 

2027
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:22,640
than he is an example for, say, 
any given king or Targaryen 

2028
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:25,920
kings. 
Even Cersei is like got to hand 

2029
01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:29,160
it to him, even with all her 
anger and cynicism and all that 

2030
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,680
she even she can got has got to 
hand it to him. 

2031
01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:35,760
You know, she gives him the 
little mental grudging hat tip 

2032
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:39,400
there. 
Now, do we think Baylor's piety 

2033
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:42,280
had a positive effect on the 
behavior of the average 

2034
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:45,560
Westerosi peasant and or noble? 
Is that is that something we can

2035
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:49,560
judge or say is tangible enough?
Or is it is it just kind of too 

2036
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:51,320
hard to to gauge? 
I think it's a. 

2037
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:54,000
Little too hard. 
And part of this I problem, I 

2038
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:57,480
think is the way in which George
or Martin sort of writes 

2039
01:50:57,640 --> 01:50:59,000
characters who practice the 
faith. 

2040
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:01,320
Because what I've noticed, at 
least when it comes to 

2041
01:51:01,320 --> 01:51:02,880
characters, practice the faith. 
They. 

2042
01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:04,880
Basically fall into one of three
buckets. 

2043
01:51:05,120 --> 01:51:07,400
You're either a cynic who 
doesn't believe any of it and 

2044
01:51:07,400 --> 01:51:09,680
thinks it's all made-up in lies 
and foolishness. 

2045
01:51:10,240 --> 01:51:13,520
Or yeah, you worship the faith, 
but it really doesn't have 

2046
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:15,040
anything. 
To do with your story or your 

2047
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:17,160
narrative or your character, you
maybe interact with it. 

2048
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:19,400
Once and that's about it. 
Or you're a zealot. 

2049
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:21,400
And the only thing you think 
about is the Faith of the Seven 

2050
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:24,200
and you are solely motivated by 
what you can do for Faith of the

2051
01:51:24,200 --> 01:51:26,720
Seven. 
And there's really no crossover 

2052
01:51:26,720 --> 01:51:31,080
to any of those buckets. 
So I, I really wish that we had 

2053
01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:34,840
a little bit more world building
in terms of popular piety. 

2054
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:37,760
What does popular piety look 
like in Westeros, and how has 

2055
01:51:37,760 --> 01:51:40,600
the legacy of Baylor affected 
that? 

2056
01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:44,000
But at the same time, I do think
there is a way. 

2057
01:51:44,000 --> 01:51:47,200
And, you know, we talk about it.
Baylor is. 

2058
01:51:47,600 --> 01:51:50,040
Basically the the Saint of the 
faith. 

2059
01:51:50,040 --> 01:51:54,520
He is the figure that everyone 
can look to, the one specific, 

2060
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:59,160
historically verifiable figure 
that everyone can look to and 

2061
01:51:59,160 --> 01:52:01,360
say, Yep, that's who we should 
be. 

2062
01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:03,320
That's who we should be trying 
to attain. 

2063
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:05,480
That's who we should be modeling
ourselves after. 

2064
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:07,960
It's Bay Lord the Blessed. 
It's Bay Lord the Beloved. 

2065
01:52:07,960 --> 01:52:11,280
It's someone who worshipped the 
gods and loved the gods so much.

2066
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:13,280
That's who we need to model 
ourselves on. 

2067
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:20,120
Let's return to our conversation
between our very cynical and our

2068
01:52:20,120 --> 01:52:25,040
very non cynical Lannisters, 
Lancel and Jamie quote. 

2069
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:29,680
Each night I make my bed beneath
a different altar and the Seven 

2070
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:33,000
send me visions. 
Bay Lord the Blessed once had 

2071
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,720
visions too, especially when he 
was faster. 

2072
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:37,960
How long has it been since 
you've eaten? 

2073
01:52:38,280 --> 01:52:40,800
My faith is all the nourishment 
I need. 

2074
01:52:41,040 --> 01:52:44,640
Again, Jamie has experience with
this whole mad king genre. 

2075
01:52:44,640 --> 01:52:48,000
He's not going to fall for the 
old starvation visions or from 

2076
01:52:48,000 --> 01:52:50,880
the gods track. 
He knows starvation visions come

2077
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:54,880
from starvation. 
Jamie as a knight has stood 

2078
01:52:54,880 --> 01:52:58,080
vigil a few times beyond his 
experience with Aries, who was 

2079
01:52:58,080 --> 01:53:00,160
mad for reasons that had nothing
to do with food. 

2080
01:53:00,480 --> 01:53:04,400
He stood vigil when he was newly
knighted and when his father 

2081
01:53:04,400 --> 01:53:06,000
died. 
That was a crazy seven day 

2082
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:08,120
experience. 
So he knows what it's like to 

2083
01:53:08,120 --> 01:53:10,040
have some deprivation. 
He has personal experience with 

2084
01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:12,440
it. 
Not in the same type that Baylor

2085
01:53:12,440 --> 01:53:15,280
and Lancel have gone through, 
but this is a guy who who knows 

2086
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:17,080
what it's like. 
He's he's been in the field. 

2087
01:53:17,080 --> 01:53:20,520
He's he's been there, done that.
And we're also pretty sure he's 

2088
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,320
seen at least a vision or two. 
If you count dreams, it's 

2089
01:53:23,320 --> 01:53:25,640
definitely a few. 
If not, there's at least that 

2090
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:28,440
one time where he sees his 
mother, which, well, he wasn't 

2091
01:53:28,440 --> 01:53:32,480
starving during that, but it 
was, yeah, that was something 

2092
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,640
that it's outside. 
Don't tell Baylor that that was 

2093
01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:37,200
on a on a weirwood stump, by the
way. 

2094
01:53:37,200 --> 01:53:39,120
He would just absolutely have a 
heart attack with. 

2095
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:41,720
That he would not like that he's
like kick that guy out of the 

2096
01:53:41,720 --> 01:53:43,680
King's guard. 
Yeah, he doesn't belong anymore 

2097
01:53:44,720 --> 01:53:46,320
so let. 
But Jamie, I think it's fair to 

2098
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:50,600
say Jamie actually has. 
He doesn't say it, but through 

2099
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:53,880
his words, reading between the 
lines, he kind of respects 

2100
01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:58,800
Lancel a bit despite everything,
because he's he's got this faith

2101
01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:01,080
and loyalty and Jamie is so 
cynical. 

2102
01:54:01,880 --> 01:54:04,160
He wants to be devoted and 
loyal. 

2103
01:54:04,160 --> 01:54:06,560
He that's the life he thought he
was going to have and that's the

2104
01:54:06,560 --> 01:54:09,040
world he wants to live in. 
And Lancel is living in that 

2105
01:54:09,040 --> 01:54:12,000
world, even if it's and Jamie's 
mind fabricated. 

2106
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:14,920
So I think that's I think it's 
kind of an interesting dynamic 

2107
01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:20,320
between those two. 
Now we have a real life example 

2108
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:26,320
here or a sort of real life 
slash semi fictionalized account

2109
01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:28,200
version here that I think is a 
lot of fun. 

2110
01:54:28,480 --> 01:54:31,920
Nina, take us away. 
I've got the real life example, 

2111
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,920
but then I've also got the semi 
fictional example so I'll do 

2112
01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:35,880
both. 
You get both. 

2113
01:54:36,240 --> 01:54:39,760
So we talked about him a little 
bit in in the last episode as as

2114
01:54:39,760 --> 01:54:42,360
a possible inspiration for Bay 
Lord, as someone who the author 

2115
01:54:42,360 --> 01:54:45,360
has specifically noted is an 
inspiration for Baylor. 

2116
01:54:45,640 --> 01:54:48,440
Bayonet obviously was a real 
historical figure and he was 

2117
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:51,120
really canonized. 
He was in fact, the only king of

2118
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:54,240
France to ever be canonized. 
But he's not just a real 

2119
01:54:54,240 --> 01:54:58,640
historical figure. 
He's also sort of a character in

2120
01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:01,960
The Accursed Kings, and 
obviously I'm going to use every

2121
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:04,800
time I'm on the show to talk 
about the Accursed Kings because

2122
01:55:04,800 --> 01:55:06,760
that's who I am. 
He's not a character in the 

2123
01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:09,000
sense that he's on page because 
he's dead by the time the books 

2124
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:11,520
start, but he is an important 
historical figure. 

2125
01:55:11,600 --> 01:55:14,840
And what I think is so notable 
when we think about George 

2126
01:55:14,840 --> 01:55:17,160
Martin being influenced by Louis
the 9th and also being 

2127
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:20,800
influenced by The Curse of Kings
in writing Baylor, is that the 

2128
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:23,160
way that Maurice Drawn, the 
author of The Accursed Kings 

2129
01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:26,760
writes Louis the 9th. 
It's very similar to how George 

2130
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:29,200
R Burton writes Baylor in some 
ways. 

2131
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:32,240
We basically, you know, when 
you're reading The Curse of 

2132
01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:35,680
Kings, Louis the 9th. 
Is almost never referred to as 

2133
01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:37,320
Louis the 9th. 
I think there is literally. 

2134
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:40,160
One time in all of the books 
that he's referred to as Louis 

2135
01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:43,360
the Knight. 
Every other time he is either 

2136
01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:47,600
Saint Louis or the King's Saint.
That's how he is referred to. 

2137
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:50,440
That is, it is inescapable, that
definition. 

2138
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:53,280
He is King and St. at the same 
time. 

2139
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:57,320
And when the author Maurice Dron
is describing him, he calls him 

2140
01:55:57,520 --> 01:56:00,720
the canonized king, the defender
of Christendom. 

2141
01:56:01,200 --> 01:56:04,640
And you know we we are 
introduced in the 4th book to 

2142
01:56:04,840 --> 01:56:07,480
one of his daughters, 
Louisiana's daughters, Agnes. 

2143
01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:12,320
Maurice Dron literally describes
her as anyone who had seen him, 

2144
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:15,480
meaning Louis the 9th had been 
spoken to by him or been the 

2145
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:19,600
object of his affection was 
endued with an almost sacred 

2146
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:22,920
quality. 
This is a character that figures

2147
01:56:22,920 --> 01:56:27,160
in this universe are literally 
praying to for intercession. 

2148
01:56:28,000 --> 01:56:31,600
The 1st chapter of the books 
when we're introduced to Queen 

2149
01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:34,240
Isabella and she finds out that 
her son Prince Edward, the 

2150
01:56:34,240 --> 01:56:36,280
future Edward the Third has 
started talking. 

2151
01:56:36,440 --> 01:56:40,200
The first thing she says is make
sure you teach him the prayer to

2152
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:41,080
Monsieur St. 
Louis. 

2153
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:45,040
She wants to make sure that he 
is remembered as this canonized 

2154
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:48,960
ancestor figure of hers as much 
as he's remembered as a king, 

2155
01:56:49,400 --> 01:56:53,640
and he's still venerated in this
in this world his tomb has pride

2156
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:56,200
of place at. 
Sandini at the Royal Necropolis,

2157
01:56:56,480 --> 01:57:00,680
even though Morris sort of adds 
this wry line that there are so 

2158
01:57:00,680 --> 01:57:04,040
many relics around purporting to
be Saint Louis that if you would

2159
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:06,960
put them all together, he would 
have doubled in size since his 

2160
01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:08,720
death. 
The implication obviously being 

2161
01:57:08,720 --> 01:57:10,840
that a lot of people are just 
saying that they have relics in 

2162
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:12,920
him. 
They're not actually relics, but

2163
01:57:12,920 --> 01:57:15,720
I think it goes to show that. 
When we're reading The Accursed 

2164
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:18,320
Kings and we're reading about 
Louis the 9th, this is. 

2165
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:22,680
Very clearly, I think giving 
inspiration to George R Martin 

2166
01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:26,560
for Baylor, how he's writing 
Baylor as this figure who is as 

2167
01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:30,000
much if not more so St. as much 
as he is king. 

2168
01:57:30,080 --> 01:57:34,320
Now again, that's a semi 
fictional portrayal, but real 

2169
01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:36,280
world. 
We can also look to Henry the 

2170
01:57:36,280 --> 01:57:38,200
6th. 
We mentioned Henry the 6th of 

2171
01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:41,600
England as another possible 
inspiration for Baylor, and I 

2172
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:44,960
think there is a real way in 
which George R Martin may look 

2173
01:57:44,960 --> 01:57:49,560
to this legacy in this pseudo. 
Saintly legacy of Henry the 6th 

2174
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:53,160
as inspiration for Baylor. 
Henry the Six was never 

2175
01:57:53,160 --> 01:57:55,800
canonized. 
Not for lack of trying, I 

2176
01:57:55,880 --> 01:57:58,200
should. 
Say, because his nephew Henry 

2177
01:57:58,200 --> 01:58:01,840
the 7th did try to get him 
canonized when he became king. 

2178
01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:03,960
Papacy didn't. 
Go for it. 

2179
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:07,240
Mostly because he had been 
murdered for political reasons 

2180
01:58:07,240 --> 01:58:10,560
and not as a martyr, and that 
really just didn't didn't really

2181
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:12,760
add to his sort of saintly 
argument. 

2182
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:15,760
But Despite that, the fact that 
he never actually had the title 

2183
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:19,160
of St. 
Karen the Six was treated almost

2184
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:23,000
immediately after his death as a
St. in all but name. 

2185
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:26,320
So pilgrims are coming to his 
tomb. 

2186
01:58:26,320 --> 01:58:29,400
Many, many pilgrims are coming 
to his tomb in the years after 

2187
01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:32,040
his death and praying for his 
intercession. 

2188
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:36,480
He is being referred to as Holy 
King Henry by contemporaries. 

2189
01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:38,040
It it's this. 
Sort of. 

2190
01:58:38,040 --> 01:58:42,080
Strange amnesia where everyone 
just kind of forgot that he was 

2191
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:44,520
A. 
Terrible king and not good at 

2192
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:48,280
all for England. 
And just remembered him as pious

2193
01:58:48,280 --> 01:58:52,680
and gentle and loving and kind 
to his wife and faithful. 

2194
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:55,920
To his wife and they said. 
Yeah, but this guy was was a St.

2195
01:58:56,120 --> 01:58:58,600
So they're going to his tomb and
they're praying for his 

2196
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:01,080
intercession, and they're 
leaving relics. 

2197
01:59:01,080 --> 01:59:05,560
Of what they believe that he had
interceded for that. 

2198
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:08,920
You know, there's a story of 
people are wearing his hat 

2199
01:59:08,920 --> 01:59:11,880
because they believe that he can
intercede to cure their 

2200
01:59:11,880 --> 01:59:13,320
headaches. 
And there's this, I think 

2201
01:59:13,320 --> 01:59:15,480
there's another story where 
someone was choking and they 

2202
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:18,640
said, oh, well, holy King Henry 
reached into my throat and took 

2203
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:21,280
out what was choking me. 
And so I'm going to go to his 

2204
01:59:21,280 --> 01:59:26,000
tomb and and thank him for that.
So in a real way, for basically 

2205
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:30,040
half a century after his death. 
He's treated as a St. now. 

2206
01:59:30,560 --> 01:59:33,200
And it goes away. 
Because unfortunately, his grand

2207
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:36,480
nephew and namesake, Cameron 
Gates puts an end to that. 

2208
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:39,880
But I think that's also a way in
which we can look at inspiration

2209
01:59:39,880 --> 01:59:43,360
for, for Baylor is a way in 
which, yes, he's not a St. 

2210
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:47,360
formally, but he is looked to as
a very, very holy figure in his 

2211
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:51,360
time. 
Right on one final in world 

2212
01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:56,120
example from a POV character and
it's a unique ish POV character.

2213
01:59:56,120 --> 01:59:58,680
And I mean Davos because and 
what makes him unique in this 

2214
01:59:58,680 --> 02:00:03,760
case is and in a lot of cases is
that he is a noble who was 

2215
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:05,640
raised up from a common born 
person. 

2216
02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:09,800
So his opinion of Baylor would 
be a little bit different as 

2217
02:00:09,800 --> 02:00:13,560
Baylor was particularly popular 
amongst the Commons and remains 

2218
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:16,680
that way. 
So here is the case where 

2219
02:00:16,680 --> 02:00:20,920
Stannis tells Sir Axel to share 
his plan with Davos. 

2220
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:24,000
Quote. 
Sir Axel turned to Davos with a 

2221
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:28,600
look on his face much like the 
look that proud Lord Belgrave 

2222
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:32,200
must have worn the day King 
Baylor the Blessed had commanded

2223
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:35,080
him to wash the beggar's 
ulcerous feet. 

2224
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:39,640
Nonetheless, he obeyed. 
So Sir Axel is, compared to a 

2225
02:00:39,640 --> 02:00:41,760
proud man, brought low humility 
of sorts. 

2226
02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:45,360
This is a very ubiquitous type 
tale would be familiar to a lot 

2227
02:00:45,360 --> 02:00:47,680
of people, a lot of different 
settings, a lot of different 

2228
02:00:48,880 --> 02:00:51,960
religious upbringings. 
So that it's the prime example 

2229
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:54,120
again, is Baylor here. 
If someone when you think of 

2230
02:00:54,120 --> 02:00:58,120
humility or bringing someone low
for pride, it's Baylor. 

2231
02:00:58,120 --> 02:01:00,480
That's who comes to mind for 
Davos. 

2232
02:01:00,840 --> 02:01:02,720
So that's really neat. 
I, I, I want to throw that one 

2233
02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:04,400
out there too. 
And there's just so many more 

2234
02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:06,560
common folk than nobles. 
If you think about the the sheer

2235
02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:12,000
number of people that think of 
Baylor as as the best king ever 

2236
02:01:13,800 --> 02:01:16,120
in terms of numbers, in terms of
popularity, he's he's probably 

2237
02:01:16,120 --> 02:01:18,520
got that going for him. 
Well, and and Davos. 

2238
02:01:18,520 --> 02:01:21,040
Is also someone who very much 
believes in the faith. 

2239
02:01:21,040 --> 02:01:26,240
He's he's a a a, a a faithful 
for a better term follower of 

2240
02:01:26,240 --> 02:01:28,160
the seven. 
And so I think that, you know, 

2241
02:01:28,200 --> 02:01:31,040
I'd be really curious as to, you
know, Davos's upbringing. 

2242
02:01:31,160 --> 02:01:34,000
He's not a a a zealot in. 
Terms of you know, he's going to

2243
02:01:34,000 --> 02:01:36,320
give up everything to go join 
the Faith Militant now, but. 

2244
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:39,120
I think he is someone who does. 
Genuinely believe in the seven 

2245
02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:41,280
and so. 
Probably grew up thinking of 

2246
02:01:41,280 --> 02:01:45,440
Baylor really in this way, as as
a St. and all but name as a holy

2247
02:01:45,440 --> 02:01:48,400
figure of someone to look to. 
And maybe that adds to that 

2248
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:50,920
feeling of. 
When he sees Axel's face, he's 

2249
02:01:50,920 --> 02:01:55,480
thinking of these sort of pious 
morality tales with Baylor of 

2250
02:01:55,480 --> 02:01:58,560
oh, this is another thing that 
Holy King Baylor did to, you 

2251
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:01,560
know, humble the proud. 
And of course, Davos being kept 

2252
02:02:01,560 --> 02:02:05,560
out of the old boys club is a 
running theme and mixing it in 

2253
02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:08,200
with with faith here is very 
interesting as a as a point of 

2254
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:11,440
pride and and a way to humble 
him and a way to mix all into 

2255
02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:13,160
Davos's story. 
These are these are themes that 

2256
02:02:13,160 --> 02:02:15,160
are very part, especially his 
early story, which is what we're

2257
02:02:15,160 --> 02:02:16,840
seeing here. 
Now here's a subject that's 

2258
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:19,840
particularly interesting because
it both infuriates the modern 

2259
02:02:19,840 --> 02:02:22,040
mind. 
Would also personally upset 

2260
02:02:22,040 --> 02:02:24,760
George if it were real and you 
could tell a lot by him writing 

2261
02:02:24,760 --> 02:02:28,640
it in the first place, but would
not be such a big deal to in 

2262
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:31,040
world commoners. 
So we would differ on that I 

2263
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:33,840
think a lot here and that's what
makes it so interesting and that

2264
02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:39,920
is book burnings. 
We talked about this a little 

2265
02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:42,560
bit in Part 2 when the book 
burnings were happening, but 

2266
02:02:42,560 --> 02:02:45,640
it's the long term impact of the
burnings. 

2267
02:02:45,640 --> 02:02:48,040
The legacy of all that lost 
knowledge is where the impact is

2268
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:51,000
really felt. 
It's not something that plays 

2269
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:52,600
out over the course of a few 
years. 

2270
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:55,240
You might not even notice the 
difference over a few years. 

2271
02:02:55,240 --> 02:02:58,000
From a societal standpoint, 
we're talking about education 

2272
02:02:58,000 --> 02:03:00,680
and knowledge. 
Things that don't by nature move

2273
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:04,200
quickly, especially on a big 
scale, which is what we're 

2274
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:06,160
talking about. 
This is the very definition of 

2275
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:08,960
something that plays out over 
the long term. 

2276
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:12,400
Quote. 
One unfortunate aspect of King 

2277
02:03:12,400 --> 02:03:16,760
Baylor's zealotry was his 
insistence on burning books. 

2278
02:03:17,080 --> 02:03:20,400
Though some books might hold 
little that is worth knowing, 

2279
02:03:20,680 --> 02:03:24,880
and some might even hold matter 
that is dangerous, destroying 

2280
02:03:24,880 --> 02:03:29,640
knowledge is a painful thing. 
That Theylor had the testimony 

2281
02:03:29,640 --> 02:03:34,520
of mushroom burned is no great 
surprise, given its ribald and 

2282
02:03:34,520 --> 02:03:38,880
scandalous content. 
But Septin Barth's Unnatural 

2283
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:44,200
History, however mistaken some 
of its proposals, was the work 

2284
02:03:44,200 --> 02:03:47,000
of one of the brightest minds in
the Seven Kingdoms. 

2285
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:51,080
Barth's study and alleged 
practice of the higher arts 

2286
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:55,080
proved enough to win Baylor's 
enmity and the destruction of 

2287
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:58,200
his work. 
Even though Unnatural History 

2288
02:03:58,360 --> 02:04:02,800
contains much that is neither 
controversial nor wicked, it is 

2289
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:06,520
only fortunate that fragments 
have survived so that the lore 

2290
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:09,920
within was not wholly lost. 
Yeah, George knew what he was 

2291
02:04:09,920 --> 02:04:12,280
doing here. 
This is a guy that's probably 

2292
02:04:12,280 --> 02:04:15,480
even more horrified than the 
average reader at the concept of

2293
02:04:15,480 --> 02:04:17,600
mass book burnings. 
He knows this is a thing 

2294
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:21,280
associated with some of the 
worst regimes of all time, the 

2295
02:04:21,280 --> 02:04:24,440
Nazis. 
I'll go all Godwin's Law here 

2296
02:04:24,440 --> 02:04:26,360
and bring them up. 
They burned a lot of books. 

2297
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:29,600
And George was a young man not 
long after this happened. 

2298
02:04:29,600 --> 02:04:34,440
So it was both fresh in the 
history of his, of the recent 

2299
02:04:34,440 --> 02:04:36,920
history of his own life and 
world history when he was a 

2300
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:38,760
young man. 
They actually called it a 

2301
02:04:38,760 --> 02:04:42,360
cleansing by fire. 
Not only did the Nazis burn 

2302
02:04:42,360 --> 02:04:45,240
books in Germany and Austria, 
where they took power initially,

2303
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:48,160
but they did it in captured 
territory, especially Poland, 

2304
02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:51,080
where they burned. 
And this is not an exaggeration,

2305
02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:55,320
as far as I know, millions of 
books, more than 75% of school 

2306
02:04:55,320 --> 02:04:57,240
and scientific libraries were 
burned. 

2307
02:04:58,160 --> 02:05:01,600
The Nazis were of course quite 
guilty of unqualified genocide 

2308
02:05:01,600 --> 02:05:03,680
as well, but this is cultural 
genocide. 

2309
02:05:03,680 --> 02:05:08,160
So Baylor never went that far. 
But if we go back to what 

2310
02:05:08,160 --> 02:05:11,200
Viserys was worried about, it is
something along this level, 

2311
02:05:11,200 --> 02:05:15,560
which is maybe not like calling 
to mind real world examples, but

2312
02:05:15,560 --> 02:05:19,760
something like that in his 
setting where things escalate 

2313
02:05:19,760 --> 02:05:25,440
and you've got worshippers of 
the seven killing people for 

2314
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:28,720
owning a particular book or just
for, I don't know, owning a 

2315
02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:30,080
piece of weirwood or something 
credit. 

2316
02:05:30,080 --> 02:05:34,080
It's kind of maybe a bit far 
fetched, but it's not out of the

2317
02:05:34,080 --> 02:05:36,560
realm of possibility. 
And it might have been what was 

2318
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:38,560
impossible or not. 
It might have been what was on 

2319
02:05:38,560 --> 02:05:41,880
Pesaris's mind. 
So it's fair to imagine that 

2320
02:05:41,880 --> 02:05:44,920
sort of scenario or, or to 
imagine him imagining that, 

2321
02:05:44,920 --> 02:05:47,480
right? 
No, absolutely. 

2322
02:05:47,480 --> 02:05:49,880
And I mean, how far fetched is 
it when during the annual 

2323
02:05:49,880 --> 02:05:52,600
invasion there are annual 
invaders who are chopping down 

2324
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:54,600
weirwood trees? 
I mean, it's not that. 

2325
02:05:54,600 --> 02:05:57,240
Far to chop down a weirwood 
tree, to chop down the people 

2326
02:05:57,240 --> 02:05:59,160
who are worshipping at the 
weirwood tree. 

2327
02:05:59,320 --> 02:06:01,520
So I no, I don't think, I don't 
think it's that far. 

2328
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:04,600
And I think that is something 
that may have been worried 

2329
02:06:04,600 --> 02:06:07,360
about, not necessarily the book 
burnings vis a vis the Old Gods,

2330
02:06:07,360 --> 02:06:09,960
because I don't know how much 
written text there was with 

2331
02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:12,240
respect to that, or the ground 
God for that matter, but 

2332
02:06:12,240 --> 02:06:16,160
certainly the destruction of 
anything that Baylor deemed not 

2333
02:06:16,160 --> 02:06:19,360
in line with the seven. 
Right, it is obviously this 

2334
02:06:19,360 --> 02:06:22,120
wasn't just about books that 
these were in the general 

2335
02:06:22,120 --> 02:06:25,880
category of things offensive to 
the faith in in his mind, you're

2336
02:06:25,880 --> 02:06:28,240
you're absolutely right. 
Arguably even worse and more 

2337
02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:31,120
similar to Baylor and more 
recent in the 1970s was the Pol 

2338
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:35,120
Pot regime where they he burned 
so many books his his idea was 

2339
02:06:35,120 --> 02:06:37,840
to make Cambodia great again by 
returning to the days where 

2340
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:40,440
almost everyone was a farmer. 
And not only did they burn 

2341
02:06:40,440 --> 02:06:42,200
massive numbers of books, they 
killed people. 

2342
02:06:42,240 --> 02:06:44,840
They killed educated folk just 
for the sin of being educated. 

2343
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:47,400
Which is again the kind of thing
Viserys may have been thinking, 

2344
02:06:47,400 --> 02:06:50,440
imagining in the proto medieval 
version of all that. 

2345
02:06:50,440 --> 02:06:53,640
People who had valuable skills 
and knowledge, things that are a

2346
02:06:53,640 --> 02:06:57,840
boon to the realm, killed for 
minor religious infractions, 

2347
02:06:58,400 --> 02:06:59,960
that sort of thing. 
Or at least driven out. 

2348
02:06:59,960 --> 02:07:01,960
Maybe they're not killed. 
Maybe they just leave. 

2349
02:07:01,960 --> 02:07:05,040
Maybe they move out of Westeros 
because the climate is is too 

2350
02:07:05,160 --> 02:07:07,120
dangerous for them. 
That is also what happened in 

2351
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:09,800
Nazi Germany. 
You had German writers who 

2352
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:11,760
weren't under any direct threat 
leaving. 

2353
02:07:12,360 --> 02:07:14,840
Well, they moved out of Germany 
because they're like, well, this

2354
02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:17,120
is, this isn't good. 
I can't trust that my books 

2355
02:07:17,120 --> 02:07:20,800
won't be next, etcetera. 
The saris didn't stop the 

2356
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:23,360
burnings as hand to the king, 
but he might have slowed the 

2357
02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:27,240
progress or deceived Baylor 
about how thorough they were. 

2358
02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:30,480
I have a head cannon that that 
they lied to Baylor about a lot 

2359
02:07:30,480 --> 02:07:32,400
of things. 
Maybe not direct lies, like 

2360
02:07:32,400 --> 02:07:35,600
lying, you know, like blunt to 
his face lies, but deceived him 

2361
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:38,160
just to avoid certain topics, 
You know, like kind of how they 

2362
02:07:38,160 --> 02:07:41,800
do with Cersei, things like that
for a different reason. 

2363
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:45,520
But still, just if the leader 
isn't paying attention to that, 

2364
02:07:45,520 --> 02:07:48,680
we can get them to focus on 
something that's more important 

2365
02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:52,800
or keep them not distracted by 
this thing that shouldn't 

2366
02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:55,760
distract them now. 
And essentially, if you look 

2367
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:58,840
forward, I mean, yeah, he 
probably burned books on 

2368
02:07:58,840 --> 02:08:02,880
prophecy. 
Hopefully he didn't burn too 

2369
02:08:02,880 --> 02:08:05,760
many books that dealt with like,
medicine. 

2370
02:08:06,040 --> 02:08:09,200
You know, astronomy might have 
been a problem for him. 

2371
02:08:09,200 --> 02:08:11,520
I don't know that that's the 
purview of the gods. 

2372
02:08:11,520 --> 02:08:14,120
And maybe he didn't like 
navigation handbooks or things 

2373
02:08:14,120 --> 02:08:16,720
like that. 
But think about like Aries the 

2374
02:08:16,720 --> 02:08:20,080
first, or even Rhaegar who was 
quote UN quote bookish to a 

2375
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,440
fault. 
Like those guys found books at 

2376
02:08:23,440 --> 02:08:27,520
the Red Keep that led them on a 
prophetic path. 

2377
02:08:27,520 --> 02:08:31,960
So clearly either some of these 
books were reinserted in the 

2378
02:08:31,960 --> 02:08:35,120
library or were not burned in 
the 1st place. 

2379
02:08:35,120 --> 02:08:39,560
And that might be evidence of 
what I'm saying, that some books

2380
02:08:39,560 --> 02:08:42,720
were just they disappeared 
rather than being they were. 

2381
02:08:42,720 --> 02:08:45,480
Baylor was told they were 
burned, but they actually just 

2382
02:08:45,920 --> 02:08:48,280
went under someone's bed, you 
know, for a while. 

2383
02:08:49,200 --> 02:08:51,520
It just makes sense, right? 
Like people, a lot of people, 

2384
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:53,600
just the people who own the 
books are told to burn them. 

2385
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:55,160
Are they, are the maesters 
really going to be like, yes, 

2386
02:08:55,160 --> 02:08:58,240
Sir, I'm going to burn all these
or are they going to well and. 

2387
02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:00,200
It's also, I mean, it's not, 
it's not like. 

2388
02:09:00,200 --> 02:09:04,680
Baylor knows how many given 
copies of any given book are out

2389
02:09:04,680 --> 02:09:05,760
there. 
There's there's no. 

2390
02:09:05,880 --> 02:09:08,640
True. 
There's no central depository of

2391
02:09:08,680 --> 02:09:12,760
Oh well, there are 1000 copies 
of this book or there are 7000 

2392
02:09:12,760 --> 02:09:16,840
copies of this book. 
If Baylor says I want every copy

2393
02:09:16,840 --> 02:09:19,760
destroyed, well, he has no 
practical way of. 

2394
02:09:19,760 --> 02:09:24,600
Knowing if that ever happened, 
it's and quite honestly, even if

2395
02:09:24,600 --> 02:09:27,680
people wanted to follow what he 
said, who's even to say that 

2396
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:29,200
they would have even been 
getting that message? 

2397
02:09:29,200 --> 02:09:31,320
I mean someone. 
Could own a book who would never

2398
02:09:31,320 --> 02:09:32,840
know that. 
The king said that, depending on

2399
02:09:32,840 --> 02:09:35,360
how far it trickled down the 
message getting to them. 

2400
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:38,400
So I'm not really surprised that
certain things would fall 

2401
02:09:38,400 --> 02:09:41,720
through because #1 not everyone 
is necessarily going to follow 

2402
02:09:41,720 --> 02:09:45,880
that #2 even if they want to 
follow that, they might not get 

2403
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:49,040
the message and #3 they may want
to follow it and be foiled by 

2404
02:09:49,040 --> 02:09:52,600
people, you know, internal to 
their organizations, families, 

2405
02:09:52,600 --> 02:09:53,920
whatever it may be. 
Yeah. 

2406
02:09:54,320 --> 02:09:57,240
Now one place where the real 
world analogy really fails is 

2407
02:09:57,440 --> 02:10:01,400
again, amongst common folk, like
the the level of literacy is 

2408
02:10:01,440 --> 02:10:04,640
hugely different in the real 
world, especially in the areas 

2409
02:10:04,640 --> 02:10:08,320
we discussed versus Westeros 
where their level of literacy is

2410
02:10:08,320 --> 02:10:11,480
extremely low. 
So it's really hard for common 

2411
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:14,800
folk in Westeros to care a lot 
about some of these books being 

2412
02:10:14,800 --> 02:10:17,560
burned. 
They have never read, owned a 

2413
02:10:17,560 --> 02:10:21,200
lot of them would never have 
really seen a book in their 

2414
02:10:21,200 --> 02:10:24,720
life, like actually maybe a 
maybe a copy of the Seven Point 

2415
02:10:24,720 --> 02:10:26,240
Star and that's it. 
You know, like that might be the

2416
02:10:26,240 --> 02:10:28,560
only book a lot of them have 
ever seen in their entire life. 

2417
02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:32,200
And so it's hard for them to 
care to be really outraged by 

2418
02:10:32,200 --> 02:10:34,040
that. 
Even if a lot of nobles or 

2419
02:10:34,040 --> 02:10:36,880
learned folk or maesters, 
archmaesters, they would care a 

2420
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:39,240
lot. 
And they're not going to really 

2421
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:41,320
have the sympathy of the common 
folk in that. 

2422
02:10:41,320 --> 02:10:46,120
So it's it's one thing that 
enables it to or enables us to 

2423
02:10:46,120 --> 02:10:48,960
imagine that it might have been 
worse in some ways than we 

2424
02:10:48,960 --> 02:10:53,480
imagined, because it wouldn't 
have been, the common folk 

2425
02:10:53,480 --> 02:10:55,720
wouldn't have stood up to that. 
And they may have even helped. 

2426
02:10:55,720 --> 02:10:57,440
They may have been like, yeah, 
burn those books. 

2427
02:10:57,440 --> 02:11:00,040
This is something that the 
nobles hold over us. 

2428
02:11:00,040 --> 02:11:01,880
It's an advantage they have that
we can't have. 

2429
02:11:01,880 --> 02:11:04,920
So if they can't have it, then 
no one should have it. 

2430
02:11:04,920 --> 02:11:07,640
That kind of thing. 
They don't understand what's 

2431
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:09,680
being lost, they don't 
understand what's being 

2432
02:11:09,680 --> 02:11:11,400
destroyed, etcetera, that kind 
of thing. 

2433
02:11:12,080 --> 02:11:15,000
So. 
Well, it reminds me of of two 

2434
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:16,960
things. 
Number one, it there's a a 

2435
02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:20,160
sarcastic joke that Tyrion makes
in the Dance with Dragons when 

2436
02:11:20,160 --> 02:11:23,960
he's aboard aboard the ship and 
and he says that, you know, he's

2437
02:11:24,240 --> 02:11:26,720
he only he's looking for 
something to read and he says, 

2438
02:11:26,720 --> 02:11:28,040
well. 
The captain being an. 

2439
02:11:28,040 --> 02:11:30,000
Especially book, this chapter 
had three books. 

2440
02:11:30,000 --> 02:11:35,240
So it sort of goes to that sort 
of joke of, you know, Tyrion as 

2441
02:11:35,240 --> 02:11:37,880
an aristocrat, as among the 
highest circle of aristocrats in

2442
02:11:37,880 --> 02:11:40,280
Westeros. 
He's used to having access to 

2443
02:11:40,480 --> 02:11:43,760
virtually as many books as he 
wants, or at least as would be 

2444
02:11:43,840 --> 02:11:47,440
readily accessible to him. 
Whereas someone who's even 

2445
02:11:47,600 --> 02:11:49,920
relatively well to do like a 
captain of a ship. 

2446
02:11:50,280 --> 02:11:52,080
He's. 
Not necessarily interested in 

2447
02:11:52,080 --> 02:11:54,800
having more than three books, 
none of which are particularly 

2448
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:57,720
academic in nature. 
But I think at the same time 

2449
02:11:57,720 --> 02:12:00,280
there is. 
There may also be the sense of, 

2450
02:12:00,400 --> 02:12:04,040
you know, even among those who 
wouldn't necessarily have books 

2451
02:12:04,040 --> 02:12:07,280
or have a high rate of literacy 
may still have veneration for 

2452
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:09,720
the written word because this 
Tyrion also takes advantage of 

2453
02:12:09,720 --> 02:12:13,800
that with Mord at the Erie. 
He writes him a promise and 

2454
02:12:13,800 --> 02:12:17,200
he's, you know, when he does it,
he says, is Mord one of these 

2455
02:12:17,200 --> 02:12:20,520
people who scorns literacy or is
he one of these people who 

2456
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:22,000
venerates literacy because he's 
not. 

2457
02:12:22,000 --> 02:12:25,080
And he bets correctly that Mord 
is one of those people who says 

2458
02:12:25,480 --> 02:12:28,120
I can't read, which means anyone
who can read. 

2459
02:12:28,480 --> 02:12:31,800
I'm treating that as almost, you
know, not, I don't want to say 

2460
02:12:31,800 --> 02:12:35,160
almost magical, but something 
that is out of the realm of 

2461
02:12:35,160 --> 02:12:37,760
possibility for them and 
therefore of a higher status. 

2462
02:12:37,760 --> 02:12:40,680
So, you know, it would be 
interesting to see what people 

2463
02:12:40,680 --> 02:12:42,640
would think about Baylor's order
of book burning. 

2464
02:12:42,640 --> 02:12:45,200
If they themselves don't own 
books or not necessarily 

2465
02:12:45,200 --> 02:12:47,000
literate, Would they go along 
with it or not? 

2466
02:12:47,000 --> 02:12:48,760
I think you'd have a lot of 
different reactions. 

2467
02:12:49,320 --> 02:12:52,840
One person who would either be 
for it or not care is Braun, who

2468
02:12:52,840 --> 02:12:55,760
told Podrick that books will 
ruin your sword eye. 

2469
02:12:56,440 --> 02:12:58,520
I didn't know a sword eye was a 
thing. 

2470
02:12:58,520 --> 02:13:02,560
But Braun is an extremely good 
swordsman and I'm not at all, so

2471
02:13:02,560 --> 02:13:03,840
I won't argue with him on that 
one. 

2472
02:13:04,560 --> 02:13:05,760
So yeah, it would be really 
interesting. 

2473
02:13:05,760 --> 02:13:10,000
Like that would be like a fun 
short story or a thing that 

2474
02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:12,520
could be written in Westeros one
day about, you know, how 

2475
02:13:12,520 --> 02:13:15,120
different institutions, 
different places handled the 

2476
02:13:15,120 --> 02:13:17,280
book burning, like what happened
in the Veil, the Reach, the 

2477
02:13:17,280 --> 02:13:19,160
store, like different places, 
how they handled it. 

2478
02:13:19,600 --> 02:13:21,880
Iron Islands, they don't care. 
They don't have any books to 

2479
02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:23,240
burn in the 1st place. 
No, I'm just kidding. 

2480
02:13:23,240 --> 02:13:25,720
The the reader is an example of 
there are some books in the Iron

2481
02:13:25,720 --> 02:13:28,520
Isles, but that's a place that 
could have fairly just ignored 

2482
02:13:28,520 --> 02:13:32,600
it, like, yeah, he's not going 
to find out the wall. 

2483
02:13:32,600 --> 02:13:34,800
They're like, yeah, he's not, 
there's not going to know. 

2484
02:13:34,800 --> 02:13:37,920
But other places where it's 
close by the river lands, the 

2485
02:13:37,920 --> 02:13:39,800
crown lands, yeah, that could 
get really interesting. 

2486
02:13:39,960 --> 02:13:42,680
And story wise, we could, you 
know, we could hear that he 

2487
02:13:43,080 --> 02:13:45,440
burned books that are relevant 
like the Jade Compendium or 

2488
02:13:45,440 --> 02:13:48,760
Danny E the Dreamers, Signs and 
Portents or the Book of Lost 

2489
02:13:48,760 --> 02:13:50,480
Books. 
Maybe he's the reason the Book 

2490
02:13:50,480 --> 02:13:52,920
of Lost Books exists, because 
he. 

2491
02:13:52,920 --> 02:13:53,680
Yeah, how many? 
How many? 

2492
02:13:53,720 --> 02:13:56,880
Entries in the book of lost 
books are just like lost because

2493
02:13:56,880 --> 02:14:02,040
of bail or lost because of last 
known copy in the reign of bail.

2494
02:14:03,200 --> 02:14:05,800
And, and we know that he had a 
few particular targets. 

2495
02:14:05,800 --> 02:14:07,360
For the most part. 
It's a little bit of an open 

2496
02:14:07,360 --> 02:14:10,160
question, but Dragon lore seems 
to be one of the main casualties

2497
02:14:10,160 --> 02:14:14,320
of this, which is interesting 
that burning would be the thing 

2498
02:14:14,320 --> 02:14:16,240
that caused the loss of dragon 
lore. 

2499
02:14:16,480 --> 02:14:18,960
Ah yeah. 
Now here's a famous quote that 

2500
02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:22,680
we're looking at because it's a 
direct sighting of Baylor's 

2501
02:14:22,680 --> 02:14:25,080
burnings. 
What he really wanted was the 

2502
02:14:25,080 --> 02:14:29,400
complete text of the Fires of 
the Freehold, Galendra's history

2503
02:14:29,400 --> 02:14:32,200
of Valyria. 
No complete copy was known to 

2504
02:14:32,200 --> 02:14:36,440
Westeros, however. 
Even the citadels lacked 27 

2505
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:39,000
scrolls. 
They must have a library in Old 

2506
02:14:39,000 --> 02:14:42,600
Volantis, Shirley. 
I may find a better copy there 

2507
02:14:42,800 --> 02:14:46,600
if I can find a way inside the 
black walls to the city's heart.

2508
02:14:46,800 --> 02:14:51,880
He was less hopeful concerning 
Septon Barth's Dragons, worms, 

2509
02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:55,120
and wyverns, their unnatural 
history. 

2510
02:14:55,680 --> 02:15:00,200
Barth had been a blacksmith's 
son who rose to be King's hand 

2511
02:15:00,200 --> 02:15:03,160
during the reign of Jahari's the
Conciliator. 

2512
02:15:03,680 --> 02:15:08,560
His enemies always claimed he 
was more sorcerer than Septon 

2513
02:15:09,000 --> 02:15:11,280
Baylor. 
The Blessed had ordered all 

2514
02:15:11,280 --> 02:15:15,800
Barth's writings destroyed when 
he came to the Iron Throne 10 

2515
02:15:15,800 --> 02:15:18,760
years ago. 
Tyrion had read a fragment of 

2516
02:15:18,760 --> 02:15:23,320
unnatural history that had 
eluded the Blessed Baylor, but 

2517
02:15:23,320 --> 02:15:27,160
he doubted that any of Barth's 
work had found its way across 

2518
02:15:27,160 --> 02:15:30,680
the Narrow Sea. 
And of course there was even 

2519
02:15:30,680 --> 02:15:35,680
less chance of his coming on the
fragmentary, anonymous, blood 

2520
02:15:35,680 --> 02:15:41,000
soaked tome sometimes called 
Blood and Fire and sometimes the

2521
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:45,280
Death of Dragons, the only 
surviving copy of which was 

2522
02:15:45,280 --> 02:15:49,000
supposedly hidden away in a 
locked vault beneath the 

2523
02:15:49,000 --> 02:15:52,240
citadel. 
Just Barth's reputation as quote

2524
02:15:52,240 --> 02:15:55,240
UN quote sorcerer as it's put 
there, would have irked Baylor 

2525
02:15:55,240 --> 02:15:57,200
whether he believed it or not. 
That would be a certainly a 

2526
02:15:57,200 --> 02:15:59,600
negative connotation. 
That's not the kind of thing 

2527
02:15:59,600 --> 02:16:01,560
that the faith would allow or or
sanction. 

2528
02:16:01,560 --> 02:16:05,400
Somehow he ignored that. 
None other than Jaheris chose 

2529
02:16:05,720 --> 02:16:08,280
and honored Septon Barth in 
that, so hey. 

2530
02:16:08,960 --> 02:16:14,240
But Baylor went against lots of 
things that other good Targaryen

2531
02:16:14,240 --> 02:16:16,640
kings did, so that's not too 
different. 

2532
02:16:16,640 --> 02:16:18,560
This is Baylor's conflict in a 
nutshell here. 

2533
02:16:18,840 --> 02:16:21,600
I guess the Citadel refused to 
burn that single copy of Death 

2534
02:16:21,600 --> 02:16:24,000
of Dragons. 
Or maybe Baylor just didn't know

2535
02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:26,080
about it so he didn't order that
one destroyed. 

2536
02:16:26,920 --> 02:16:31,440
Barth also comes up in Sam's POV
as well regarding Eamon and the 

2537
02:16:31,440 --> 02:16:33,639
Princess that was promised and 
all that, so it's another 

2538
02:16:33,639 --> 02:16:36,799
example of of perhaps Baylor 
having an impact on the story in

2539
02:16:36,799 --> 02:16:39,120
that way. 
A book he didn't burn was called

2540
02:16:39,120 --> 02:16:43,440
Dark Wings, Swift Words, and it 
was actually written well after 

2541
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:48,000
Baylor's reign by Archmaester 
Walgrave, which includes a 

2542
02:16:48,000 --> 02:16:52,719
passage about Baylor's attempt 
to replace Ravens with doves, 

2543
02:16:52,719 --> 02:16:56,680
which is one of his more crazy 
notions. 

2544
02:16:57,240 --> 02:17:00,200
Just bizarre. 
And a good example of like, 

2545
02:17:00,200 --> 02:17:02,400
yeah, that guy was. 
It's hard to argue that guy 

2546
02:17:02,400 --> 02:17:04,879
wasn't at least a little insane.
It's not a lot. 

2547
02:17:05,680 --> 02:17:07,920
It's a fun fact, by the way, and
I just learned this because I 

2548
02:17:07,920 --> 02:17:09,240
was listening to a podcast the 
other week. 

2549
02:17:10,400 --> 02:17:12,120
This is not an intentional 
burning, but. 

2550
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:14,760
The only surviving copy of 
Beowulf, almost. 

2551
02:17:14,840 --> 02:17:17,040
Destroyed by fire in the 18th 
century. 

2552
02:17:18,280 --> 02:17:21,000
Literally, there was one 
manuscript, but it will fully 

2553
02:17:21,000 --> 02:17:22,920
survive because of one 
manuscript that was written, I 

2554
02:17:22,920 --> 02:17:25,959
think, in the 10th century and 
preserved for centuries 

2555
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:27,520
afterward and then. 
There was a massive. 

2556
02:17:27,520 --> 02:17:29,360
Massive massive house fire 
where? 

2557
02:17:29,360 --> 02:17:31,959
It was in the 18th century, and 
I believe I may be getting 

2558
02:17:32,000 --> 02:17:34,639
details of this wrong, but I 
believe it had super thick 

2559
02:17:34,639 --> 02:17:37,719
binding on it and that was the 
reason that it survived. 

2560
02:17:37,719 --> 02:17:41,040
If that had been destroyed, we'd
never know anything about 

2561
02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:41,719
Beowulf. 
There would be. 

2562
02:17:41,719 --> 02:17:43,600
One entry in one. 
Catalogue. 

2563
02:17:43,639 --> 02:17:45,360
And that's what we would know 
about Beowulf. 

2564
02:17:45,520 --> 02:17:47,959
Wow. 
So, you know, things, things, 

2565
02:17:48,360 --> 02:17:49,600
things could be. 
Lost released like. 

2566
02:17:52,719 --> 02:17:56,520
Mixed political legacy That says
it all. 

2567
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:59,320
It's very mixed, not only 
because the results were mixed, 

2568
02:17:59,320 --> 02:18:04,920
but because there's such mixed 
opinions on the impact of his 

2569
02:18:04,920 --> 02:18:06,719
reign and his policies and his 
legacy. 

2570
02:18:06,719 --> 02:18:11,600
You can't even find agreement in
in some circles on whether 

2571
02:18:11,719 --> 02:18:15,559
certain actions or policies had 
a good effect or what good even 

2572
02:18:15,559 --> 02:18:18,280
is. 
It gets very meta in some cases.

2573
02:18:18,920 --> 02:18:22,920
And that's the nature in some 
senses of a man of extremes in 

2574
02:18:22,920 --> 02:18:24,360
charge. 
They're naturally going to 

2575
02:18:24,360 --> 02:18:28,080
majorly please some and deeply 
displease others, and that might

2576
02:18:28,080 --> 02:18:31,040
be putting it mildly. 
One example, divorce. 

2577
02:18:31,360 --> 02:18:35,600
What examples did Baylor set by 
divorcing his own sister, which 

2578
02:18:35,600 --> 02:18:40,400
she was queen very briefly until
he set her aside, which was 

2579
02:18:40,400 --> 02:18:42,559
after his walk. 
So she was queen for like a few 

2580
02:18:42,559 --> 02:18:45,920
months while he walked adorn. 
But what did this do? 

2581
02:18:45,920 --> 02:18:49,320
Did this reinforce or set any 
precedents that we can point to?

2582
02:18:49,480 --> 02:18:52,440
I mean. 
I, I don't know if only because,

2583
02:18:52,440 --> 02:18:55,040
and I, I think we've mentioned 
this in, in the one of the other

2584
02:18:55,040 --> 02:18:59,520
episodes, Baylor didn't make a 
unique argument. 

2585
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:03,240
I will say in terms of when he, 
you know, called for an 

2586
02:19:03,240 --> 02:19:05,719
annulment of his marriage to 
Dana because what he said was. 

2587
02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:08,000
Number one, that he was 
underage, which which is sort of

2588
02:19:08,000 --> 02:19:10,040
an interesting argument. 
I wonder how often that would 

2589
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:13,200
come up, but #2 that it wasn't 
consummated and we. 

2590
02:19:13,200 --> 02:19:15,879
Know that's a. 
Very valid argument in Westeros 

2591
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:19,680
for putting a marriage aside. 
You know, ancestor, no incest 

2592
02:19:19,680 --> 02:19:22,879
when it comes to Westeros, if a 
marriage is not consummated, 

2593
02:19:22,879 --> 02:19:25,959
that's a really easy argument to
put a marriage aside. 

2594
02:19:26,160 --> 02:19:30,559
So I'm not sure that Baylor was 
really, you know, inventing new 

2595
02:19:30,559 --> 02:19:34,120
law or, or inventing new legal 
precedent when it comes to 

2596
02:19:34,120 --> 02:19:36,040
putting his marriage to Dana 
aside. 

2597
02:19:36,280 --> 02:19:40,240
That being said, I would be 
curious if this example were to 

2598
02:19:40,240 --> 02:19:43,240
come up in the future. 
Obviously, we see this a little 

2599
02:19:43,240 --> 02:19:46,639
bit, not quite explicitly, but 
certainly implicitly when it 

2600
02:19:46,639 --> 02:19:51,320
comes to Lancel, Lancel and, 
and, and his his bride, Amy, 

2601
02:19:51,440 --> 02:19:56,200
obviously taking inspiration 
from from Baylor and Dana in 

2602
02:19:56,200 --> 02:19:58,840
terms of their personalities. 
And Lancel does and his marriage

2603
02:19:58,840 --> 02:20:01,880
to Dana to join the warrior son.
So there's a little bit of 

2604
02:20:01,880 --> 02:20:04,080
similarity to that. 
And he uses the same reason, 

2605
02:20:04,080 --> 02:20:05,560
which is that he didn't 
consummate the marriage. 

2606
02:20:05,880 --> 02:20:09,840
But the other point that it 
might come up is potentially 

2607
02:20:09,840 --> 02:20:12,880
with Santa's upcoming marriage 
to Harry Harding. 

2608
02:20:12,880 --> 02:20:15,560
Obviously she knows and 
Littlefinger knows that she was 

2609
02:20:15,560 --> 02:20:17,400
married to Tyrion. 
And they also know that this 

2610
02:20:17,400 --> 02:20:20,880
marriage wasn't consummated. 
So is someone Santa 

2611
02:20:20,880 --> 02:20:22,760
Littlefinger? 
Someone else in the veil? 

2612
02:20:22,760 --> 02:20:25,000
Who knows? 
Going to bring up the point. 

2613
02:20:25,000 --> 02:20:28,400
Well, just like Baylor was able 
to put aside his marriage to 

2614
02:20:28,400 --> 02:20:30,480
Dana. 
So we can put aside this 

2615
02:20:30,480 --> 02:20:31,960
marriage. 
Maybe, maybe not. 

2616
02:20:31,960 --> 02:20:34,280
There's a lot of examples of it.
But I would be curious if it 

2617
02:20:34,280 --> 02:20:36,040
would come up in the future. 
Absolutely. 

2618
02:20:36,040 --> 02:20:39,200
And I think one way it might 
come up additionally or not 

2619
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:42,640
additionally, but within the 
context that you mentioned, is 

2620
02:20:42,640 --> 02:20:46,400
that because Baylor did it, it 
maybe is a little bit stronger 

2621
02:20:46,400 --> 02:20:49,520
because so many things he did 
ring out that because he did it,

2622
02:20:49,520 --> 02:20:51,440
that makes it more OK, that 
solidifies it. 

2623
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:54,320
I agree with you that he didn't 
establish that precedent, but he

2624
02:20:54,320 --> 02:20:58,240
may have really firmed it up. 
And as you say here, it's 

2625
02:20:58,240 --> 02:20:59,840
there's some very specific 
examples. 

2626
02:20:59,840 --> 02:21:02,080
In fact, I wanted to mention the
land cell example. 

2627
02:21:02,240 --> 02:21:06,000
He absolutely does cite Baylor 
as a reason why his own marriage

2628
02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:09,200
is invalid right here. 
I said some words and gave her a

2629
02:21:09,200 --> 02:21:11,920
red cloak, but only to please 
father. 

2630
02:21:12,200 --> 02:21:16,720
Marriage requires consummation. 
King Baylor was made to wed his 

2631
02:21:16,720 --> 02:21:20,840
sister Dana, but they never 
lived his man and wife and he 

2632
02:21:20,840 --> 02:21:23,360
put her aside as soon as he was 
crowned. 

2633
02:21:24,000 --> 02:21:25,520
So yeah, it's very 
straightforward. 

2634
02:21:25,520 --> 02:21:27,000
Like you said, this is it comes 
up. 

2635
02:21:27,000 --> 02:21:30,560
It comes up with Sansa and 
Tyrion, similar ish reasons, 

2636
02:21:31,320 --> 02:21:33,800
very different potential 
consequences. 

2637
02:21:34,520 --> 02:21:37,520
I really wonder too what they 
think about Baylor and Dorn. 

2638
02:21:37,640 --> 02:21:40,960
You know, we don't have a lot of
as much as we get mentions of 

2639
02:21:40,960 --> 02:21:43,440
him. 
We don't actually have a lot of 

2640
02:21:43,440 --> 02:21:48,360
Dornish POV on him and he 
thoughts on on that. 

2641
02:21:48,920 --> 02:21:51,560
I mean, I we're mostly guessing 
probably, but still I'm curious 

2642
02:21:51,560 --> 02:21:53,600
what you think. 
I'm super curious and I would 

2643
02:21:53,600 --> 02:21:56,560
love to think that maybe Arianne
in the future. 

2644
02:21:56,560 --> 02:21:59,680
Is going to is going to mention 
this because obviously you can't

2645
02:21:59,720 --> 02:22:03,200
talk about Baylor, especially 
Baylor and Dorn without talking 

2646
02:22:03,200 --> 02:22:07,280
about what Baylor set up, which 
is this idea of a peace and 

2647
02:22:07,280 --> 02:22:10,480
eventually a union between Dorn 
and the Iron Throne. 

2648
02:22:10,480 --> 02:22:14,560
Now, Baylor wasn't quite making 
that in his own lifetime. 

2649
02:22:14,560 --> 02:22:17,080
That was left to his spiritual 
successor Deron to do. 

2650
02:22:17,360 --> 02:22:20,480
But what Baylor was starting to 
establish is the foundations of 

2651
02:22:20,480 --> 02:22:22,480
that, the beginnings of that 
connection. 

2652
02:22:22,680 --> 02:22:25,840
By walking to Doran and making a
peace, he's making it very 

2653
02:22:25,840 --> 02:22:28,280
obvious. 
I, as king on the Iron Throne, I

2654
02:22:28,280 --> 02:22:30,960
don't want to conquer you. 
I'm not trying to make you an 

2655
02:22:30,960 --> 02:22:33,040
imperial province of the Iron 
Throne. 

2656
02:22:33,040 --> 02:22:35,080
I'm going to leave you as you 
are. 

2657
02:22:35,320 --> 02:22:37,960
But I'm not just going to leave 
you as you are, because I'm also

2658
02:22:37,960 --> 02:22:40,840
going to create this marriage 
between Deron. 

2659
02:22:41,160 --> 02:22:44,360
And Princess Mariah Now whether 
or not Baylor thought of 

2660
02:22:44,360 --> 02:22:48,360
Daranis's heiress, that point, 
whether or not Mariah was he was

2661
02:22:48,360 --> 02:22:51,320
doing this because Mariah was at
that point her father's heiress,

2662
02:22:51,680 --> 02:22:53,200
I don't know. 
I don't, I don't know the. 

2663
02:22:53,200 --> 02:22:56,520
Details of that, but I think 
it's at least the beginnings of 

2664
02:22:56,520 --> 02:23:00,240
this legacy and I think that 
would be hard for any given 

2665
02:23:00,320 --> 02:23:04,480
family or aristocrat and endure 
and to ignore is that for better

2666
02:23:04,480 --> 02:23:08,680
or worse the beginnings of their
union with the Iron Throne start

2667
02:23:08,680 --> 02:23:10,720
not with their own a second. 
They start with Baylor. 

2668
02:23:10,720 --> 02:23:13,680
They start with this marriage. 
They start with this idea that 

2669
02:23:14,040 --> 02:23:18,040
if not for Baylor we don't get 
there on a second if not for 

2670
02:23:18,040 --> 02:23:21,880
Baylor we don't get the union of
Marin and Daenerys. 

2671
02:23:21,920 --> 02:23:26,440
If not for Baylor, we don't get 
the fact that every Targaryen 

2672
02:23:26,440 --> 02:23:30,600
king after Daron has Martel 
blood in them and that every 

2673
02:23:30,960 --> 02:23:35,600
Martel Prince and Princess after
Marin has Targaryen blood in 

2674
02:23:35,600 --> 02:23:37,600
them. 
And there is this shared legacy 

2675
02:23:37,600 --> 02:23:40,800
that it all starts with Baylor. 
So I would have to. 

2676
02:23:40,800 --> 02:23:45,120
Think that in a large way, his 
influence is relatively 

2677
02:23:45,120 --> 02:23:48,000
positive, enduring. 
Now there may be pockets of 

2678
02:23:48,520 --> 02:23:51,440
families or or individuals who 
don't believe that. 

2679
02:23:51,440 --> 02:23:54,800
I don't know what, for example, 
the wills think of Baylor today,

2680
02:23:55,440 --> 02:23:58,760
considering they their ancestors
were taking bets on his death. 

2681
02:23:59,160 --> 02:24:02,120
So I don't know, I think. 
It's probably a mixed legacy, 

2682
02:24:02,120 --> 02:24:04,120
but I would say probably overall
pretty positive. 

2683
02:24:04,120 --> 02:24:06,400
And again, I'd be really curious
if this is something that would 

2684
02:24:06,400 --> 02:24:10,360
come up vis a vis say, Aryan and
R Agin in the Winds of Winter. 

2685
02:24:10,600 --> 02:24:14,160
Absolutely, and I'm very curious
for that too. 

2686
02:24:14,160 --> 02:24:16,920
I would love to learn more. 
It is fair. 

2687
02:24:16,920 --> 02:24:21,720
I agree with you that we would 
call his legacy in terms of 

2688
02:24:21,720 --> 02:24:24,480
politics very mixed. 
Most of what he tried to do 

2689
02:24:24,920 --> 02:24:28,280
probably wasn't accomplished. 
Now to be fair, maybe with more 

2690
02:24:28,280 --> 02:24:31,000
time he could have, but to be 
fair he might have also just 

2691
02:24:31,000 --> 02:24:32,680
ruined more and made things a 
lot worse. 

2692
02:24:32,800 --> 02:24:38,520
That said, Dorn, the marriage 
and making it A at least semi 

2693
02:24:38,520 --> 02:24:42,240
permanent part of the realm is a
massive achievement no doubt. 

2694
02:24:42,240 --> 02:24:44,600
Like that's a big deal. 
The building of the scepter is 

2695
02:24:44,600 --> 02:24:45,920
pretty big too. 
That's not necessarily a 

2696
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:47,560
political achievement, but it is
a big deal. 

2697
02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:51,840
So I do think that if we look at
his overall impact, it's mostly 

2698
02:24:51,840 --> 02:24:54,920
in terms of culture and on the 
minds of common folk and how 

2699
02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:58,880
maybe people think and act 
rather than creating last 

2700
02:24:58,880 --> 02:25:03,240
lasting political change, which 
other than Dorn, which is pretty

2701
02:25:03,240 --> 02:25:05,000
darn big deal. 
Yeah, no, I agree. 

2702
02:25:05,440 --> 02:25:10,600
And I think that, you know, in a
in a strange way, Baylor fails 

2703
02:25:10,600 --> 02:25:14,480
at almost everything except the 
thing which might have mattered 

2704
02:25:14,480 --> 02:25:17,760
to him most, which is being 
remembered for his piety. 

2705
02:25:17,880 --> 02:25:22,080
That is the thing that lasts. 
About Baylor is that everyone 

2706
02:25:22,080 --> 02:25:26,160
remembers that Baylor was the 
Septon King, everyone remembers 

2707
02:25:26,160 --> 02:25:28,160
that Baylor was the Pious king 
and. 

2708
02:25:28,840 --> 02:25:31,560
In a strange way, I think Baylor
might have been happy with that 

2709
02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:34,840
if if he were remembered. 
As the king who most loved the 

2710
02:25:34,840 --> 02:25:38,840
seven, the king who was most 
remembered for his piety. 

2711
02:25:39,280 --> 02:25:41,200
Maybe he'd be OK with that as a 
legacy. 

2712
02:25:41,200 --> 02:25:43,920
Maybe he'd say, you know what? 
That's that's what I wanted all 

2713
02:25:43,920 --> 02:25:45,680
along. 
Right on. 

2714
02:25:46,040 --> 02:25:51,000
Despite 3 episodes on Baylor, 
there's a huge amount left 

2715
02:25:51,000 --> 02:25:53,080
unknown. 
I mean, a lot of what we 

2716
02:25:53,080 --> 02:25:55,720
discussed is theoretical. 
A lot of times when we discuss 

2717
02:25:55,720 --> 02:25:58,520
theoretical stuff, we have to go
in a couple different directions

2718
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:00,080
to cover a lot of different 
bases. 

2719
02:26:00,360 --> 02:26:03,080
And if we were to learn just a 
couple more things that might 

2720
02:26:03,080 --> 02:26:06,600
send us an entirely new 
directions, it might cancel out 

2721
02:26:06,600 --> 02:26:09,720
some of the ideas we've had. 
It might make us more confident 

2722
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:11,920
in them. 
And there's a lot of hope, 

2723
02:26:11,920 --> 02:26:13,840
though, for more. 
I mean, it's not just something 

2724
02:26:13,840 --> 02:26:16,000
that we're going to, we know 
that we won't get the answers to

2725
02:26:16,000 --> 02:26:20,080
some things ever, but there's a 
very realistic expectation for 

2726
02:26:20,080 --> 02:26:22,720
quite a bit more here. 
Blood and fire in particular, 

2727
02:26:22,920 --> 02:26:25,480
but also just Duncan Egg and the
Song of Ice and Fire. 

2728
02:26:25,480 --> 02:26:28,640
Given how many times they lore 
has been mentioned to date in 

2729
02:26:28,640 --> 02:26:32,960
either of those, you would think
that more is to come, especially

2730
02:26:32,960 --> 02:26:37,760
given the plot lines like the 
Sept and Searcy and like you 

2731
02:26:37,760 --> 02:26:40,640
said, Arianne and more maybe who
knows what else, like you could 

2732
02:26:40,640 --> 02:26:44,400
go name many more possibilities.
So yeah, there's there's a lot 

2733
02:26:44,400 --> 02:26:47,960
of possible more and don't you 
agree, Nina, there's the, I 

2734
02:26:47,960 --> 02:26:51,800
think there's a reason for 
optimism there. 1000% I mean, I 

2735
02:26:51,800 --> 02:26:54,120
mentioned the OR I hope I 
mentioned. 

2736
02:26:54,280 --> 02:26:58,680
If I didn't, I'm sorry I'd. 
Go through with George RR Martin

2737
02:26:59,240 --> 02:27:03,960
and Dan Jones where he was 
talking about the George RR 

2738
02:27:03,960 --> 02:27:06,080
Martin was talking about the 
future of fire and blood, you 

2739
02:27:06,080 --> 02:27:07,960
know, Volume 2 or Blood and 
Fire, whatever's going to call 

2740
02:27:07,960 --> 02:27:09,560
it. 
And he specifically mentions he 

2741
02:27:09,680 --> 02:27:12,240
he mentions Baylor by name. 
So clearly this is a character 

2742
02:27:12,240 --> 02:27:13,120
that he's going to write more 
about. 

2743
02:27:13,120 --> 02:27:14,880
Clearly this is the character 
he's excited to write more 

2744
02:27:14,880 --> 02:27:16,920
about. 
And I think there's very natural

2745
02:27:16,920 --> 02:27:19,720
ways for Baylor to come up. 
You mention it yourself, there's

2746
02:27:19,720 --> 02:27:23,240
literally a character named 
after Baylor that we're probably

2747
02:27:23,240 --> 02:27:27,280
going to meet or at the very 
least hear about via Sam in Old 

2748
02:27:27,280 --> 02:27:30,160
Town. 
There are characters in King's 

2749
02:27:30,160 --> 02:27:34,320
Landing who are being directly 
influenced by and referencing 

2750
02:27:34,320 --> 02:27:37,320
Baylor. 
Vis a vis the Faith, there's 

2751
02:27:37,400 --> 02:27:39,480
reason to believe that Baylor 
will come in. 

2752
02:27:39,720 --> 02:27:41,800
Danny's going to land in 
Westeros at some point. 

2753
02:27:41,800 --> 02:27:44,240
He's going to have to interact 
with that legacy of her family. 

2754
02:27:44,600 --> 02:27:46,320
Baylor's an important part of 
that. 

2755
02:27:46,320 --> 02:27:49,600
We mentioned Sansa with putting 
aside her marriage to Tyrion, 

2756
02:27:49,880 --> 02:27:51,240
potentially marrying Harry 
Harding. 

2757
02:27:51,440 --> 02:27:55,400
Baylor could come up with that. 
And again, Duncan Egg, Duncan 

2758
02:27:55,400 --> 02:27:58,600
Egg are not that far away 
timeline wise from Baylor, 

2759
02:27:58,600 --> 02:28:00,440
certainly closer than we are in 
the main series. 

2760
02:28:00,720 --> 02:28:02,720
So even though they're not 
necessarily interacting with 

2761
02:28:02,720 --> 02:28:03,720
anyone. 
Who? 

2762
02:28:04,400 --> 02:28:06,960
Knew Baylor, although actually I
take that back because they 

2763
02:28:06,960 --> 02:28:09,640
might, depending on how old 
Elena was when she died, maybe 

2764
02:28:09,640 --> 02:28:12,280
they actually would be. 
And that would be great because 

2765
02:28:12,600 --> 02:28:16,600
if Elena is there, he knew 
Baylor, he interacted with 

2766
02:28:16,600 --> 02:28:19,200
Baylor, this is her brother. 
So it would be great to have 

2767
02:28:19,200 --> 02:28:21,920
someone. 
Who actually knew Baylor? 

2768
02:28:21,920 --> 02:28:24,880
I could give stories about 
Baylor and her opinion on Baylor

2769
02:28:24,880 --> 02:28:27,800
as he was. 
So I think there's a lot more to

2770
02:28:27,800 --> 02:28:29,880
hear about Baylor, and I can't 
wait to see it. 

2771
02:28:29,880 --> 02:28:32,840
This is a character that George 
RR Martin clearly likes writing,

2772
02:28:33,040 --> 02:28:34,840
and I can't wait to see what he 
does in the future for it. 

2773
02:28:35,000 --> 02:28:38,200
Well, she doesn't have a the 
Dunken Egg story where all it is

2774
02:28:38,200 --> 02:28:41,920
is Duncan Eggs sit at table and 
listen to stories about their 

2775
02:28:41,920 --> 02:28:45,040
ancestors told by some of their 
other ancestors. 

2776
02:28:46,800 --> 02:28:48,960
We'll take that. 
No actual adventure, no plot. 

2777
02:28:48,960 --> 02:28:52,600
They just like hear a bunch of 
stories from those are the that 

2778
02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:54,320
is the plot. 
Those other stories, I'll take 

2779
02:28:54,320 --> 02:28:55,680
that. 
Several four or five stories 

2780
02:28:55,680 --> 02:28:57,120
contained within a story 
framework. 

2781
02:28:57,120 --> 02:28:59,440
Sure, Duncan Egg don't do 
anything but listen, but we are 

2782
02:28:59,440 --> 02:29:00,880
entertained. 
I'll take that. 

2783
02:29:00,880 --> 02:29:03,280
Absolutely. 
Thank you so much, Nina. 

2784
02:29:03,280 --> 02:29:07,000
This was amazing. 
This series has been a super fun

2785
02:29:07,000 --> 02:29:09,400
deep dive. 
We've had so much to talk about.

2786
02:29:09,400 --> 02:29:12,640
It's been a lot of fun both 
behind the scenes discussing 

2787
02:29:12,640 --> 02:29:16,800
these topics with you to to kind
of shape them into the podcast 

2788
02:29:16,800 --> 02:29:20,160
versions that we present here. 
And I'm just so glad we did it. 

2789
02:29:20,160 --> 02:29:23,200
Thanks so much for all your 
great takes and all your time. 

2790
02:29:24,160 --> 02:29:25,920
Well, thank you so much for 
having me. 

2791
02:29:25,920 --> 02:29:29,120
I, I love doing this. 
I am, you know, I'm eternally 

2792
02:29:29,120 --> 02:29:31,640
grateful to everyone who comes 
before me. 

2793
02:29:31,640 --> 02:29:34,520
I don't do this in a vacuum. 
I love, you know, sharing my 

2794
02:29:34,520 --> 02:29:36,880
thoughts with with you all. 
That's super fun to me. 

2795
02:29:36,880 --> 02:29:39,080
But also, you know, I'm a 
creature of influence. 

2796
02:29:39,080 --> 02:29:41,760
So, you know, I wouldn't be here
without someone like the Laker, 

2797
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:44,240
Steven Atwell. 
He's he's a huge influence. 

2798
02:29:44,240 --> 02:29:47,360
And if you think I talk a lot 
about historical Targaryens, 

2799
02:29:47,680 --> 02:29:50,360
please go read his works because
he's he was so great and he's 

2800
02:29:50,400 --> 02:29:52,520
written especially about Baylor.
I wouldn't be doing these 

2801
02:29:52,520 --> 02:29:55,640
episodes. 
And you know, I also, I wouldn't

2802
02:29:55,640 --> 02:29:58,000
be here without my loving 
husband as my live studio 

2803
02:29:58,000 --> 02:29:59,440
audience doing that too. 
So I have to. 

2804
02:30:01,120 --> 02:30:02,160
Get a shout out, shout out to 
James. 

2805
02:30:02,160 --> 02:30:06,480
That's right, that's right. 
And shout out to Steven as well.

2806
02:30:06,480 --> 02:30:10,320
RIP Steven. 
So we mentioned a few other 

2807
02:30:10,320 --> 02:30:13,120
episodes here that are relevant,
but I also want y'all to check 

2808
02:30:13,120 --> 02:30:16,160
out good queenalley.tumblr.com 
where you can get more of Nina's

2809
02:30:16,160 --> 02:30:18,640
thoughts. 
The the latest post over there 

2810
02:30:18,880 --> 02:30:23,640
is a question about what the 
plan with Theon and marriage 

2811
02:30:23,720 --> 02:30:26,560
might have been in terms of 
Ned's plans. 

2812
02:30:26,560 --> 02:30:29,600
Would he have married him to one
of his daughters? 

2813
02:30:29,600 --> 02:30:30,080
The. 
Short. 

2814
02:30:30,280 --> 02:30:32,240
The short answer is no. 
The short answer is no. 

2815
02:30:32,560 --> 02:30:35,240
Yeah, but but there is a little 
more to it than that, so. 

2816
02:30:35,840 --> 02:30:38,040
There is, there is. 
That's the the short answer. 

2817
02:30:38,040 --> 02:30:40,080
The long answer is my usual 
verbosity, but. 

2818
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:43,640
Yeah, so check that out and see 
for yourself. 

2819
02:30:44,640 --> 02:30:47,960
We also mentioned our episodes 
on Eamon the Dragon Knight, 

2820
02:30:48,200 --> 02:30:51,280
Deron the First, The Young 
Dragon, Deron the Second, which 

2821
02:30:51,280 --> 02:30:53,440
we actually did before we did 
Deron the First. 

2822
02:30:53,440 --> 02:30:56,880
But really, we have a lot of 
Targaryen episodes, so I'll just

2823
02:30:56,880 --> 02:31:00,360
leave the list at that because 
you could browse our our back 

2824
02:31:00,360 --> 02:31:04,600
catalogue and you will find 
quite a lot on House Targaryen. 

2825
02:31:05,120 --> 02:31:07,240
But not everybody yet. 
We gotta, we gotta do. 

2826
02:31:07,240 --> 02:31:08,880
We gotta do everybody, that's 
the thing. 

2827
02:31:08,960 --> 02:31:10,640
It's true. 
We have not crossed off every 

2828
02:31:10,640 --> 02:31:11,840
list. 
You gotta catch them all. 

2829
02:31:12,280 --> 02:31:16,720
The Targaryens are like Pokémon.
Sometimes they do evolve. 

2830
02:31:17,200 --> 02:31:18,680
Sometimes it's kind of 
terrifying. 

2831
02:31:19,280 --> 02:31:21,960
Sometimes it's a little cute. 
So well, but well, yeah, we're. 

2832
02:31:21,960 --> 02:31:23,080
Working on it. 
We're working on it. 

2833
02:31:24,080 --> 02:31:26,960
Thanks to everyone who supports 
us on Patreon and Spotify. 

2834
02:31:26,960 --> 02:31:29,840
We really appreciate the paid 
subscribers that enables us to 

2835
02:31:29,840 --> 02:31:32,840
do this as frequently as we do. 
If not for y'all, we would do it

2836
02:31:32,840 --> 02:31:35,960
a lot less often. 
We would have to have, you know,

2837
02:31:36,000 --> 02:31:38,960
spending our time doing like 
regular job stuff. 

2838
02:31:39,680 --> 02:31:41,800
And so we're very grateful that 
we can focus on this. 

2839
02:31:42,200 --> 02:31:45,120
Thanks to Joey Townsend for the 
original music that we use at 

2840
02:31:45,120 --> 02:31:49,720
the beginning and Jesse Koval 
for the the Redon version, his 

2841
02:31:49,720 --> 02:31:52,400
cool version at the end. 
Thanks to Michael Klarfeld for 

2842
02:31:52,400 --> 02:31:55,120
the maps behind us. 
Extra special shout out to 

2843
02:31:55,120 --> 02:32:00,360
Michael, who at this time in 
real life is only about 48 hours

2844
02:32:00,360 --> 02:32:04,240
from being here in Atlanta. 
His involved his first trip to 

2845
02:32:04,240 --> 02:32:05,480
the US. 
We're going to show him a good 

2846
02:32:05,480 --> 02:32:08,600
time and hang out and do sorts 
all sorts of fun American 

2847
02:32:08,600 --> 02:32:10,440
activities. 
USA. 

2848
02:32:10,480 --> 02:32:12,040
That's right. 
You could have also. 

2849
02:32:12,080 --> 02:32:15,080
You had a live studio audience. 
That's true, we're just a little

2850
02:32:15,080 --> 02:32:16,960
shirt on there. 
But no, he won't be our live 

2851
02:32:16,960 --> 02:32:18,960
studio audience for our live 
stream on Sunday. 

2852
02:32:18,960 --> 02:32:20,160
That's true. 
You know what? 

2853
02:32:20,160 --> 02:32:21,240
That's true. 
I take that back. 

2854
02:32:21,840 --> 02:32:25,040
Let's thank those of you with 
titles on our Patreon supporters

2855
02:32:25,040 --> 02:32:29,080
page by reading out those names.
Our Hand of the King is a base 

2856
02:32:29,080 --> 02:32:31,920
born man, Jack, literally just a
drunken Spearman. 

2857
02:32:31,920 --> 02:32:35,760
Gods help us, Lord Jim the 
Fortuitous of the Wars and 

2858
02:32:35,760 --> 02:32:38,760
Politics of Ice and Fire Blog is
our Warden of the West. 

2859
02:32:39,400 --> 02:32:42,080
Kabeth the Unfrozen is Lord of 
the Bricks and Castle Crimson 

2860
02:32:42,080 --> 02:32:44,840
Light, Defender of the Old Gods 
and Warden of the North. 

2861
02:32:45,400 --> 02:32:48,920
Pirate Queen Carrie is a storm 
of Secrets of the Sea Captain, 

2862
02:32:48,920 --> 02:32:52,000
Queen of Depth Feeder, which has
sent countless ships to the 

2863
02:32:52,000 --> 02:32:55,360
bottom of the sea. 
Jenny the Just is captain of the

2864
02:32:55,360 --> 02:32:57,920
ghost ship Liberty, which 
vanished in the Shivering Sea 

2865
02:32:57,920 --> 02:33:00,840
over a century ago but has 
recently been sighted near 

2866
02:33:00,840 --> 02:33:03,160
Volantis. 
If the tales can be believed. 

2867
02:33:03,680 --> 02:33:07,680
Nevada Pike is 4th of Frost, 
Frost Kraken, drowned in ice, 

2868
02:33:07,680 --> 02:33:12,320
Commander of cats and krakens. 
Our small council includes Lord 

2869
02:33:12,320 --> 02:33:15,840
Chris B of House Baelish. 
Always keep your foes confused. 

2870
02:33:16,040 --> 02:33:19,040
Master of whisperers, drowned 
Dan, Lord of House Windsor, a 

2871
02:33:19,040 --> 02:33:21,640
master of karate. 
Friendship for everyone and 

2872
02:33:21,640 --> 02:33:24,520
ships. 
Lord Goodkill McGee is ruler of 

2873
02:33:24,520 --> 02:33:28,440
castle over Yonder and master of
laws and Grandmaester Scotty. 

2874
02:33:28,720 --> 02:33:31,440
Our Lords and ladies in their 
castles include Lady Dyerliz of 

2875
02:33:31,440 --> 02:33:35,080
Castle Nachi, the alpha patron, 
Gregor the Toasty, Lord of the 

2876
02:33:35,080 --> 02:33:38,600
Breadford, the Bastard of the 
Wolfswood, first Forester of the

2877
02:33:38,600 --> 02:33:41,200
Old Gods, sworn to house 
ironware wood. 

2878
02:33:41,280 --> 02:33:44,640
Listen for the silence. 
Lady Maura of how Stark Arch 

2879
02:33:44,640 --> 02:33:47,440
mistress of apothecaries and 
woods which her castle features.

2880
02:33:47,440 --> 02:33:49,600
Where would doors with painted 
moons? 

2881
02:33:50,400 --> 02:33:53,960
Elena Snow is the Twilight star 
bastard, daughter of Dane, wife 

2882
02:33:53,960 --> 02:33:56,200
of the Trickster and Lady of 
Castle Rivia. 

2883
02:33:56,880 --> 02:34:00,320
Amanda Pink Wolf is lady and 
ruler of Castle Whitefast. 

2884
02:34:00,320 --> 02:34:04,000
The ice emboldens Lord Benjin of
House Hornwood. 

2885
02:34:04,600 --> 02:34:07,560
Lady Rebecca Stark of Castle 
Aurora is wielder of a weirwood 

2886
02:34:07,560 --> 02:34:10,240
bow with Valyrian steel tipped 
arrows and friend of Short 

2887
02:34:10,240 --> 02:34:12,920
Round. 
The direwolf Aurelian Mattheus 

2888
02:34:12,920 --> 02:34:15,960
Rhesus is Lord of House 
Aurelian, ruler of Domus 

2889
02:34:15,960 --> 02:34:19,040
Aurelianus and the Valley of 
Tennessee, wielder of Soul 

2890
02:34:19,040 --> 02:34:22,040
Invictus, which might be 
Valyrian steel, and keeper of 

2891
02:34:22,040 --> 02:34:24,400
the largest collection of books 
outside the Citadel. 

2892
02:34:24,560 --> 02:34:27,920
We restore the world. 
Lord Derry in the Daring is 

2893
02:34:27,920 --> 02:34:30,480
wielder of the Valyrian steel 
sword Wisdom, Lord of House 

2894
02:34:30,480 --> 02:34:35,200
Hollingworth and the Holly Hold 
in Dorn Power in Knowledge Gabe 

2895
02:34:35,200 --> 02:34:38,520
the Jade Blade, whose foes are 
skewered and grilled. 

2896
02:34:39,240 --> 02:34:43,120
Lady Maria of House High Tree, 
Lady of Castle Fair Oak on the 

2897
02:34:43,120 --> 02:34:46,720
Crooked Lake Sigil is a long 
Grapevine with dark green leaves

2898
02:34:46,720 --> 02:34:49,560
and purple grapes winding around
a greystone pillar on a white 

2899
02:34:49,560 --> 02:34:53,760
field bordered by gold. 
Ever Watchful and Lord Abelard 

2900
02:34:53,760 --> 02:34:57,400
of House Hearkenen, the Queen's 
High Council. 

2901
02:34:57,520 --> 02:35:02,160
Grand Archmaester Rennie, whose 
rod and ring and mask are quartz

2902
02:35:02,160 --> 02:35:06,520
Crystal, wielder of the Valyrian
steel pen, fire and ink. 

2903
02:35:07,120 --> 02:35:11,320
Lady Wolfburg, Mistress of the 
Eastern Rivers, gatekeeper of 

2904
02:35:11,320 --> 02:35:15,240
the Northern Skies, daughter of 
the Silver Sea, and Master of 

2905
02:35:15,240 --> 02:35:20,000
Coin Devorah Lynn Blackwood, 
maker of the Frozen Fury muscle 

2906
02:35:20,000 --> 02:35:24,240
bomb, eucalyptus and mint leaves
washed with Dornish Peppers and 

2907
02:35:24,240 --> 02:35:28,200
sealed by fire ants. 
Master of Laws, Lady Jane of 

2908
02:35:28,200 --> 02:35:30,920
Driftmark, Guardian of 
Dragonstone. 

2909
02:35:31,080 --> 02:35:36,200
The circling flame burns Master 
of Ships, Lady Sonia of Sun 

2910
02:35:36,200 --> 02:35:39,920
Spear, Keeper of the Martel 
Menagerie, Master of Castle 

2911
02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:44,200
Tormira, Topanga, Tame and Keep 
Well, Master of Whisperers. 

2912
02:35:44,440 --> 02:35:46,800
Our Kingsguard includes Sir Dean
the White Knight of the Black 

2913
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:50,240
Star, Sir Bateman The Dark 
Knight, Lady Annie, Bringer of 

2914
02:35:50,240 --> 02:35:53,240
Winter's Warning, watcher in the
Weirwood and bearer of Wrist 

2915
02:35:53,240 --> 02:35:57,320
wolves, Lord Jonathan of House 
Tanner, Lord Ray Deto of House 

2916
02:35:57,320 --> 02:36:00,360
Avocado, Protector of the Royal 
Kitchens, Green in the morning, 

2917
02:36:00,480 --> 02:36:04,440
dark by evening, Lady Katy Cat 
Herder of Toebean Terrace and 

2918
02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:08,720
Royal feline Advisor. 
Our Queens guard is led by Lord 

2919
02:36:08,720 --> 02:36:12,880
Captain Commander Hema Hellman, 
the Cell Sword Sentinel, James 

2920
02:36:12,880 --> 02:36:17,000
the Green, Lord of the Meadows, 
Keeper of the Trial of Grasses, 

2921
02:36:17,280 --> 02:36:21,440
Archmaester Vena, whose ring, 
rod and mask are made of steel, 

2922
02:36:21,480 --> 02:36:24,480
not pudding. 
Laura Boros, The Lady of 

2923
02:36:24,480 --> 02:36:27,960
Infinity, Our Beard Guard 
includes Lord Commander George, 

2924
02:36:27,960 --> 02:36:31,600
the Golden Lady, Rita of the 
Copper Maine, The Unbound Dance,

2925
02:36:31,600 --> 02:36:35,240
The Fervor, Bloody Men, 
Blackwood, Big Brian Blackwood 

2926
02:36:35,240 --> 02:36:37,760
and Davin Mack. 
Night of the Reeds, The Bog 

2927
02:36:37,760 --> 02:36:40,280
Nights. 
Last but not least is Lord 

2928
02:36:40,280 --> 02:36:42,920
Commander Richard the Liger, 
Heart wielder of Barry's Ankle 

2929
02:36:42,920 --> 02:36:45,840
Breaker, a flail with blue and 
silver Valyrian steel spikes. 

2930
02:36:45,840 --> 02:36:48,800
Motto Go Blue. 
Backed by Sir Kobe of how 

2931
02:36:48,800 --> 02:36:52,680
Stonesmith returns. 
Words are wind, deeds are stone.

2932
02:36:52,920 --> 02:36:56,640
Legitimate grandson of the 
Bastard of Runestone and 1st 

2933
02:36:56,640 --> 02:37:00,520
Steward Zach of House Wild Lord,
Shredder of the Spiral, wielder 

2934
02:37:00,520 --> 02:37:04,680
of the Valyrian steel axe Grail.
So until next time everybody, 

2935
02:37:04,720 --> 02:37:07,080
thank you for watching, thanks 
for listening, thanks for 

2936
02:37:07,080 --> 02:37:09,480
subscribing, thanks for 
supporting and for discussing A 

2937
02:37:09,480 --> 02:37:12,880
Song of Ice and Fire with your 
friends and Valar. 

2938
02:37:12,920 --> 02:37:13,560
Reread us.