1
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Aegon the Conqueror wanted all 
of Westeros South of the Wall. 

2
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,720
Not most of it. 
All of it. 

3
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,440
From his perspective, he had 
been relatively patient. 

4
00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,240
With few exceptions, the 
majority of the realm had bent 

5
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,600
the knee to the Iron Throne 
during the Conquest. 

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00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,040
That's why they called it the 
Conquest. 

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00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,800
Now years are enumerated by the 
abbreviation AC, which stands 

8
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,680
for After the Conquest. 
It wasn't until the year 4 AC 

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that attacks on Dorne began. 
So there was, as we talked about

10
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last time in the Dragons 
interim, a good bit of time 

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between when hostilities broke 
out. 

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Queen Rainey's had promised to 
return with fire and blood, and 

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she did, but Maria told her to 
remember Miria. 

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Rather, Miria told her to 
remember the words of House 

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Martel. 
Words echoed throughout Dorne. 

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On rare occasions such as this, 
an outside invasion is the best 

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time for unbowed, unbent, 
unbroken to be all of Dorne's 

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motto. 
Not just the words of their 

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princely house, they're all 
Martels in terms of this 

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attitude when the Dragons come 
or when anyone comes, but 

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00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,280
especially the Dragons. 
But what do those words actually

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00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,000
mean when faced with Dragons and
large armies? 

23
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It's a difficult proposition, 
but Aegon might have been a bit 

24
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overconfident given his earlier 
successes, and the Dornish might

25
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have been confident in that and 
some other factors. 

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You might be familiar with the 
general idea of what happens to 

27
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invaders, even dragon riding 
invaders in those deep deserts, 

28
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But this is before the 
Targaryens knew that they hadn't

29
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tried this before. 
This was new to them. 

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Now, it wasn't new to some of 
the people in their armies, but 

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it was new to House Targaryen. 
We get to watch them learn the 

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hard way. 
Let's put it that way. 

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We'll discuss what he did right,
what he did wrong. 

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Same goes for his subcommanders.
And what made Dorne so 

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different? 
How is it that Aegon had such an

36
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easy time with all the rest of 
the realm, yet such a hard time 

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South of the Red Mountains? 
Plus, a lot of these lessons are

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00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,680
going to be or not learned by 
future Targaryens, and we'll 

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00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,480
talk a bit, a little bit about 
that as well. 

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All that and more on this 
episode of History of Westeros 

41
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,600
podcast. 
Hello and welcome everybody. 

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00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,360
Welcome back to another Sunday 
afternoon. 

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If you're here, live, Otherwise 
whatever day you're listening to

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this welcome. 
And know that we recorded it on 

45
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:29,040
a Sunday at 3:00 PM Eastern on 
YouTube, so if you are inclined 

46
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,400
to watch us live, that's the 
time to do it. 

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Afterwards, every video stays up
on YouTube and also gets posted 

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on Spotify, and the audio only 
version is available everywhere 

49
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,160
you listen to podcasts. 
And it's ad free if you listen 

50
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,200
on Patreon. 
Our topics Moot is coming soon. 

51
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Get yourself ready. 
Get signed up on our Patreon and

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00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,360
participate in the choosing of 
what will be this year, 12 

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topics and in future years we'd 
like to do more than that. 

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So be a part of the first ever 
topics mood, and if you're 

55
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,520
hearing this later, be a part of
the second or third or fourth, 

56
00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,840
whenever that happens to be. 
Hey, Sean, how's it going? 

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00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,000
Good to see you there. 
You excited to talk about this 

58
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episode today? 
Yeah, I'm mostly excited. 

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00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,519
It's I I got to say, this whole 
storyline is frustrating to me. 

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Can't we all just get along you?
Know well it's it's in the right

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place for this sort of thing. 
When it's real it's it's 

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frustrating and that's why you 
feel it that way. 

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But we get to remind ourselves 
it's not. 

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But it does relate to things in 
the real world. 

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A lot of realistic things, a lot
of ideas that we can maybe bring

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ourselves to try to imagine. 
Not too much like you don't want

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to imagine yourself being in a 
war like this, but we're going 

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to do it a little bit anyway. 
We're going to try to put 

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ourselves in the in the boots of
some of the soldiers on the 

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ground, in the desert and some 
of these tough spots. 

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I think that's what makes some 
of these topics particularly 

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interesting is, is picturing 
yourself there, imagining 

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yourself in it, or imagining 
someone else in it. 

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00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,440
Imagine yourself watching it. 
Maybe is a more pleasant way to 

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00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,280
experience that, but yeah, it's 
it's not pleasant overall 

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00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,160
though, is it? 
Yeah, I think that's a common 

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00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,720
way people like that. 
Definitely me. 

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00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:11,080
But I think I'm not unique in 
this. 

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If people approach how they 
consume media books or TV shows 

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or whatever, a lot of the time 
what's going through your head 

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is what would I do? 
I would have done this. 

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They should do this. 
You know, you're constantly 

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00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,360
thinking about like what would 
it could have, should have 

84
00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,840
happened, how you would have 
done it differently. 

85
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And to be fair, a lot of times 
if I or a objective, rational 

86
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person was in that situation, 
there wouldn't be this conflict 

87
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,280
in the first place. 
That's true. 

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00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:39,200
That's true also. 
You would have different 

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00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,400
attitudes about everything. 
You wouldn't have 2023 

90
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,320
sensibilities. 
You would have Dornish and you 

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00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,120
know, four AC sensibilities or 
Westeros, he said. 

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00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,720
Whatever, whatever part of the 
round. 

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00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,440
I'm living with 2024 
sensibilities. 

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00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,040
I think you should catch up. 
I haven't moved on yet. 

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00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,480
I'm living in the past. 
That joke never gets old when 

96
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,960
you forget what year it is when 
you forget to turn the calendar 

97
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:01,560
in. 
The. 

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00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:02,840
Past. 
That's right. 

99
00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,280
Yeah, you've never heard that 
one before. 

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00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaking of, you've never heard 
that before. 

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00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:12,520
The latest question posed to 
Nina on her blog, Good Queen 

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00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,640
allie.com or.tumblr.com Excuse 
me is written as. 

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Sorry if you've been asked this 
before, but where was Princess 

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00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,680
Ilia and her entourage headed 
when Ulmer of the Kingswood 

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00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:23,960
Brotherhood stole a kiss from 
her? 

106
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,080
Good question. 
Where were they going? 

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What was the deal? 
Who else was there? 

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And was it around the time that 
Rhaegar unhorsed Simon Toy? 

109
00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,960
So, really good question. 
Really interesting episode that 

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happened not long before the 
rebellion. 

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So you want to read Ninas, take 
on that and see what she says. 

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It's a good one and if you have 
questions of your own you to 

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that you want to direct towards 
us and you can send them to 

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westeroshistory@gmail.com or you
can ask live during a live 

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stream. 
At the end of this episode I'll 

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mention some episodes that 
relate to this one. 

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If you want to stay immersed you
can go check those out and I'll 

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also give you the answer to this
tribute question. 

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What Sigil did House Talland 
have prior to the first Dornish 

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War in this episode? 
It's going to change, so if you 

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00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,200
listen carefully you'll get the 
answer. 

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Last time we discussed the first
few years of Aegon's reign, the 

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00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,880
final subtopic we covered was 
the peaceful attempts to bring 

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Dorne into the realm. 
We wondered what those attempts 

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were comprised of, what kind of 
offers or threats or both were 

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made, but regardless, didn't 
work. 

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So it's not super important, 
just a curiosity. 

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So that takes us to this nice 
summary style quote from Fire 

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and Blood about the big picture 
quote. 

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The long reign of King Aegon, 
the First Targaryen one AC to 37

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00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,760
AC was by and large a peaceful 
one. 

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00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,080
In his later years, especially 
but before the Dragons peace. 

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As the last two decades of his 
kingship were later called by 

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the Maesters of the Citadel came
the Dragons Wars, the last of 

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00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,120
which was as cruel and bloody a 
conflict as any ever fought in 

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00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,760
Westeros. 
Since this is a reread for most 

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00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,960
of you listening, you might have
nodded in agreement at that last

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00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,560
line when you first read or 
heard it, and perhaps again just

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00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,400
now. 
Because yes, it is as cruel and 

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00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,560
bloody a conflict as any ever 
fought in Westeros. 

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00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,000
Which is what Sean was talking 
about at the beginning, about it

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00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,120
being frustrating and and 
awfully violent. 

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00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,840
Yes indeed it really is and you 
thought of a few, a few 

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00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,920
parallels to kick us off with 
wars that get really bogged 

145
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,960
down, wars that get really 
bloody and and and very little 

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00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,240
progress gets made on either 
side, either towards peace or 

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00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,600
towards ending a War One way or 
the other. 

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00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,720
There are many, many examples, 
but a couple I thought might be 

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00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,120
particularly apropos are because
George would have lived through 

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00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,240
them. 
They might have been, you know, 

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00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,240
it's certainly in his brain, if 
not at the forefront of his 

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00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,000
brain was the US and Vietnam. 
And that was a scenario where it

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00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,120
was, you know, overwhelming 
forces, right? 

154
00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,400
Like the US hugely had, you 
know, more manpower, technology 

155
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,560
and whatnot than Vietnam. 
And, you know, there's, there's 

156
00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:05,160
a bunch of reasons, like 
political reasons why we weren't

157
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,000
fully committed right there just
as a policy. 

158
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,480
We weren't trying to take over 
Vietnam. 

159
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,880
We were just trying to stop 
Soviets from taking over. 

160
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,800
So we were just sitting there 
waiting for them to attack us 

161
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,120
and they were using guerrilla 
warfare, right, Which was 

162
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,360
difficult to fight against. 
Even when you have, like jet 

163
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,040
planes in the air or whatever. 
How does that stop people like 

164
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,720
in tunnels, hiding out in a 
jungle, things like that that 

165
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,280
that were, by the way, lasted 
approximately the US involvement

166
00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,040
was approximately 10 years from,
you know, when Johnson sent 

167
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,320
significant ground forces in 
1965 to when we're like pulling 

168
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,920
people out by helicopter in 
Saigon in 1975. 

169
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,040
This war was also about 10 
years, right? 

170
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,200
And the USSR in Afghanistan is 
also something that would have 

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00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,720
been in Georgia's life. 
But we're leading up to the 

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00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,360
writing of the books and also 
lasted almost exactly 10 years. 

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00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,560
It was 1980 to 1989, I think 
that Soviets put forces in till 

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00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:58,440
they pulled him out again. 
Huge overwhelming forces. 

175
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,200
This time in more of a deserted 
landscape with maybe some more 

176
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,840
similarities to Dorne there. 
But but they were determined to 

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00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,720
take over and we're not 
successful. 10 years of 

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00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,080
guerrilla warfare and the the 
people there, they they didn't 

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00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,200
have like huge cities. 
It could be like choked off or 

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00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,040
destroyed. 
That then shut the comfort 

181
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,480
country down and made them 
surrender. 

182
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,360
They were just scattered 
population through the 

183
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:21,760
countryside and the 
mountainside. 

184
00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,200
Just like Dorne. 
You could attack little segments

185
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,600
of them, but. 
They were unbowed, unbent, 

186
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,720
unbroken. 
Yeah, they were. 

187
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,360
They didn't give up. 
They didn't just say, OK, well, 

188
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,800
we can go back to the. 
We can go back to our normal 

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00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,320
lives unto these conquerors that
that's one thing that sometimes 

190
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,120
is a consideration, I think. 
But yeah, these are great 

191
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,840
examples, Sean, because, for 
example, Vietnam, one of the big

192
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,520
things there was tunnels. 
And here in Doran there's lots 

193
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,400
of caves. 
So not the same thing. 

194
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,880
They're digging tunnels, but 
caves are effectively the same 

195
00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,040
thing because they are refuge 
from air power you can't get. 

196
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,760
It's harder to get bombed when 
you're up in a tunnel you can't 

197
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,520
get seen or scouted. 
Of course the jungles help with 

198
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,600
that too, but which there aren't
in Dorne. 

199
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,280
But that's where Afghanistan has
more similarity 'cause. 

200
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,120
It's deserty and mountainy and 
and dry and and water and 

201
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,080
supplies are really hard to to 
get a hold. 

202
00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,080
Of and you know one thing that 
we tried to do to deal with the 

203
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,320
the jungle aspect was napalm. 
We would like rain fired. 

204
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,880
Down to fire. 
Just like the Dragons. 

205
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,640
Like what Rainey's did in in the
Stormlands. 

206
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,800
Yeah. 
Near when the armies were 

207
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,440
ambushing them, they just 
started just torching the entire

208
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,080
forest. 
Like, OK, you're going to hide 

209
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,160
the forest. 
We're going to destroy the 

210
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:29,240
forest. 
Yeah, that. 

211
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,960
You're right. 
That's an extremely strong 

212
00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:32,680
parallel. 
So let's let's talk about when 

213
00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:35,800
this started and we can be 
pretty sure winter came to 

214
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,240
Westeros in the 5th year after 
the conquest, because it was the

215
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,760
second year of autumn already in
AC4. 

216
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,840
So they had two straight years 
of autumn, which is a dead 

217
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,880
giveaway that winter is soon, 
winter is winter is soon. 

218
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,600
What am I saying? 
Winter is coming, right? 

219
00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:52,560
I just totally used the wrong 
slogan. 

220
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,000
Wow. 
So that means the campaign 

221
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,440
started in autumn, which is an 
interesting choice. 

222
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,920
Now, this was on purpose. 
They weren't just like, bumbling

223
00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,440
around saying, OK, well, we'll 
just go attack without any 

224
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,520
consideration to what the 
weather was going to be like. 

225
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,360
They thought it was going to 
help them because, well, it's 

226
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,480
hot and dry and Dorne, and if 
it's autumn, that should 

227
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:16,520
mitigate some of that heat. 
It should be cooler and the 

228
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,440
water would be more plentiful. 
And they were entirely wrong, 

229
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,040
but it wasn't as much of a 
difference as they probably 

230
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,680
would have hoped for. 
I mean, it's like that thing. 

231
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:27,720
Remember Sean? 
Remember the Futurama joke? 

232
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,520
When they come, the aliens come 
because they're mad That single 

233
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,440
female lawyer was canceled. 
It's like we will raise the 

234
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,640
temperature of your planet 
1,000,000° a day for five days. 

235
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,960
It's like we're all dead after 
that first day. 

236
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,480
It's the same thing here. 
Like a little more water isn't 

237
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,120
going to save you from dying 
when you have no water. 

238
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,280
You know, like 2 drops of water 
isn't much better. 

239
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,600
Or. 
You know 94° instead of 112° 

240
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,600
like 112 is extreme and to deal 
with. 

241
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,640
But if it's 94 instead, like, 
that's better I guess. 

242
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,520
But you're still going to the 
horses aren't going to make it, 

243
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,920
the armor's going to bake you 
has too many problems. 

244
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,360
Or 112 without water or 94 
without water. 

245
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,840
I mean, you're you're still 
without water. 

246
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,440
Either way, you're going to 
water. 

247
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,120
Right. 
Like without water would still 

248
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,320
be a problem it. 
And you know, even if you did 

249
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,720
have water, because you got to 
keep in mind too, it's not like 

250
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,360
they just have to exist there. 
They have to travel hundreds of 

251
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,000
miles and they have to keep 
their horses fed and watered it.

252
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,160
You know, it's not. 
They can't just like barely 

253
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,560
survive. 
This is supposed to be a a long 

254
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:40,280
March to war. 
And so they don't even make it 

255
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:41,960
through the long March. 
Yeah, I don't think. 

256
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,680
I don't even know if if they had
double the water and 10° cooler.

257
00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:50,280
I still don't know if they were 
going to make it because they're

258
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,680
being ambushed on the way. 
It's not just a March, it's a 

259
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,040
March through enemy territory. 
It's too much. 

260
00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,480
It's sort of like the the 
example that's cited a lot in in

261
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,000
the real world, don't try to 
invade Russia in the winter. 

262
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,880
Maybe just don't try to invade 
Russia at all, you know, But but

263
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,160
if you do it in the winter, it's
terrible. 

264
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,840
And you might and you might get 
wrong what winter means. 

265
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,880
Like they're like, oh, winter is
in these certain months, and 

266
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:14,920
then the rest of the time it's 
fine. 

267
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,720
It's like, no, it's hot all the 
time. 

268
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,040
And Dorne, it's just worse in 
some of the other months. 

269
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,960
Yeah, so they they, they mistook
some of the ideas here. 

270
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,080
I think they they, they 
overestimated what difference 

271
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,480
the weather would make. 
And they may have overestimated 

272
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,040
some other stuff too. 
They may have expected that the 

273
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,760
peasantry, the commoners, and 
maybe even some of the Lords and

274
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:40,120
Knights would capitulate quicker
because of supplies and their 

275
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,360
own fear of being short during 
the winter. 

276
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,840
Like, well, if we go to war now 
that's going to burn up more 

277
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,840
resources than it would if we 
were just chilling at home, 

278
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,200
right? 
We don't have to go on these 

279
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,720
long marches and burn so many 
thousands of calories a day just

280
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,960
to keep going And and you go 
through our supplies a lot 

281
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,040
faster that if you're sitting at
home at winter, you know you're 

282
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:01,200
not going through your stuff as 
quick. 

283
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,280
So they they might have expected
that the Dornish would fear that

284
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,600
and that would make them give up
quicker, which is part of that 

285
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,920
how they started with their 
strategy and well, it it didn't 

286
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,040
work. 
But in theory it's not the worst

287
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,440
idea. 
But yeah, it's it didn't work 

288
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,680
out. 
Now Winter isn't going to be all

289
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,760
that bad in Dorne anyway, but 
they still need things like 

290
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,760
bringing their own supplies 
down. 

291
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,000
You can't carry all your 
supplies right with you at all 

292
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,080
times. 
They have to army, especially 

293
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,000
armies of 10s of thousands have 
to constantly re up their 

294
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,400
supplies. 
They can't just have enough for 

295
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:42,880
them at all times. 
That's ridiculous. 

296
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,600
Right. 
So a lot of times that's done 

297
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,120
with shipping, with boats. 
You have boats that are near 

298
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,040
your armies, and those boats, 
those navies, can supply your 

299
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,360
main columns. 
That is something that Alexander

300
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,120
the Great did, something that 
Genghis Khan did. 

301
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,760
There's just all the conquerors 
did things like this. 

302
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,560
Not all, but it's a common 
strategy amongst conquerors. 

303
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,160
So there's two quirks here. 
One is, well, it's harder to 

304
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,880
sail in winter or in autumn and 
then winter. 

305
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,600
That's a well known thing in 
Westeros, especially that side 

306
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,920
of the continent. 
Autumn storms are nasty, they're

307
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,040
vicious. 
So it's relying on supplies to 

308
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,200
be shipped in is pretty sketchy.
Now, Sean, we were talking about

309
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,720
this ahead of time. 
You also pointed out that 

310
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,480
there's certain areas of Dorne 
that you just can't ship 

311
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,640
supplies to when that is. 
That's very accurate. 

312
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,120
The southern coast of Dorne, not
very good. 

313
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,080
Now they're not operating all 
that much down there anyway, but

314
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,200
it's still it's a good example 
that that's not an option to 

315
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,160
them, that they might have 
operated more down there if they

316
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,000
had more access. 
Even the northern coast, do you 

317
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,480
still have to, like, go down 
through those mountain passes 

318
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,360
and then across the desert to 
reach where hopefully ships are 

319
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,400
there with supplies? 
Like, say you don't meet up at 

320
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,120
the same time, even if they did 
coordinate that just perfectly, 

321
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,960
they barely made it to the 
mountain passes, right? 

322
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,840
So, like, I feel like it was a 
mistake to not use the boats, 

323
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,480
but that's not really the 
mistake that did them in, yeah? 

324
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,800
It's one of many mistakes, yeah.
The mistake I think was to not 

325
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,880
bring the troops on the boats in
the 1st place. 

326
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,560
That's what they should have 
done is rather than try to walk 

327
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,400
down to the mountains and in 
across the desert potentially to

328
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,400
to link out resupply from boats,
they should just been dropped 

329
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,640
off by the boats. 
And now the problem with that is

330
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,280
they probably had that many 
boats, right. 

331
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,440
That's a lot of boats to carry 
10s of thousands of soldiers and

332
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,359
we know that a significant 
portion of Navy was just 

333
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:27,839
destroyed in the past couple 
years, so. 

334
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,000
You're you're totally right. 
There's another logistical issue

335
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,600
here as well, which is that the 
most, the bulk of the troops are

336
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,600
coming from the Reach. 
And not just the Reach, but the 

337
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,440
southern part of portion of the 
Reach, which is around High 

338
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,560
Garden. 
Which would mean if they wanted 

339
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,440
to take ship, they'd have to 
March a substantial way to get 

340
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:43,760
to whatever ships they were 
going to use. 

341
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,480
Like if it's the Arbor bringing 
the ships up to ship them down 

342
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,960
there. 
And then they'd have to go all 

343
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,000
the way around Doran. 
Because the one good place to 

344
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,920
land in Doran is Northern Doran,
the southern coast of the Sea of

345
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,440
Doran, which you know, you can 
go across that sea and get into 

346
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,000
the Stormland. 
That's the the only reasonable 

347
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,320
place for bus stop rate, which 
is still play area racked by 

348
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,120
storms. 
So they'd have to sail all the 

349
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,440
way from High Garden, all the 
way around the southern coast of

350
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,080
Dorm, which is a bad place for 
sailing, and then all the way up

351
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,640
to the north and then have all 
those supplies. 

352
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,840
Yeah, so. 
Or potentially they could have 

353
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,680
marched from the Reach over to 
King's Landing. 

354
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,080
Yeah. 
And then come down from the 

355
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,200
southern coast of the Sea of 
Dorn. 

356
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,000
But which you just mentioned, 
they don't have ships anymore 

357
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,480
because the Valerian Navy was 
destroyed, so they'd have to, 

358
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:29,480
yeah. 
So there's all sorts. 

359
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,480
Of all those problems, as bad as
they are, I think are less bad 

360
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:34,600
than what ended up happening 
though. 

361
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,200
Yeah, and they could have spent 
the interim, the Dragons 

362
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,400
interim, building new ships, for
example, if they knew they 

363
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:40,440
should have known they'd need 
them. 

364
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,480
But that's the thing. 
I think Aegon was overconfident.

365
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,800
He ships. 
Navies are almost always a 

366
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,440
massive, massive part of any 
sort of combat, any sort of 

367
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,480
campaign. 
Even if we're talking ancient 

368
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,880
warfare, even we're talking pre 
medieval. 

369
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,560
See supplying or just that being
a part of a campaign is super 

370
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,560
important and I think Aegon got 
overconfident. 

371
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,320
It wasn't a big part of his 
campaign because he had Dragons,

372
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,160
he had something that the real 
world doesn't exist and they 

373
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,800
never had to deal with or 
include in their plans. 

374
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,880
So I think he just there's a 
blind spot in his preparations 

375
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,480
and his outlook, partly because 
of two things. 

376
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:23,120
One, he didn't didn't need them,
and now he does and didn't 

377
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:24,360
realize it till maybe it was too
late. 

378
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,720
If he ever realized it, you 
know, I mean, they never have 

379
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,960
figured out what his mistake was
or whatever, or that particular 

380
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,640
mistake. 
Since, as you say, Sean, there 

381
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,480
were several mistakes. 
And who knows? 

382
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,040
Aegon being kind of a 
impenetrable personality, We 

383
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,800
don't know a lot about him. 
We don't know. 

384
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,880
We're never going to know 
exactly what he felt. 

385
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,840
But we, except for frustration. 
He certainly was upset that he 

386
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,680
failed, that's for sure. 
But if he aimed his frustration 

387
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,520
at certain things, who knows? 
That's not clear. 

388
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,880
There's a few other factors 
we'll touch on here, too, but he

389
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,120
easily could have been misled. 
His His overconfidence might 

390
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,280
have come from those Southern 
troops who? 

391
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,600
We're just raring to get those 
Dornish, you know, and and those

392
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,280
guys might have also, even if 
they had a proper respect for 

393
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,440
Dorne and even the desert in the
past and everything else, this 

394
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,720
is the first time they would 
have been moving down in full 

395
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,000
force with an alliance from 
other people. 

396
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,000
They're not like bringing this 
big force to attack Dorne and 

397
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,040
worried someone's going to 
attack him from behind while 

398
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,920
they're out. 
Does that make sense that it's 

399
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,680
the first time that the people 
that would have attacked him 

400
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,960
from behind are with them to go 
down to Dorne you know And they 

401
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,760
also have the Dragons firepower.
There's all these reasons 

402
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,320
Heinz's 2020, right I I could 
see at the get go why they might

403
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,800
have felt confident about this. 
But. 

404
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,400
Also, here's a great point that 
that Nina made that Dorne was 

405
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,000
never truly united until an 
outside power came in the 1st 

406
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,880
place. 
It was Nymeria in the 1st place 

407
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,600
who united Dorne. 
They were always sort of 

408
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:53,960
disparate and not and relatively
independent amongst themselves. 

409
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:59,720
In a way that wasn't so true. 
Or perhaps is less true in the 

410
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,120
rest of Westeros. 
In the Westeros, and maybe 

411
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:04,600
that's what they were looking 
at, they were like, well, it 

412
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,440
took a outsider to come in and 
and bring them together. 

413
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,960
It's going to take an outsider 
to do that again. 

414
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,320
So they may have looked to that 
notion as a positive. 

415
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,920
It probably wasn't true because 
they are united now that that 

416
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,640
unity still exists. 
They're still united after 

417
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,960
nightmare, even though they do 
often fight with each other. 

418
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:30,120
They underestimate from the 
outside how much that squabbling

419
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,080
amongst themselves can fall off 
completely when they're faced 

420
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,840
with an outsider, someone they 
hate even more. 

421
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,640
Yeah, they hate each other, but 
they hate outsiders even more. 

422
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,000
I think that's something that 
maybe they didn't catch. 

423
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,040
Doran also wasn't some extremely
powerful nation. 

424
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,800
They weren't. 
They're not an economic 

425
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,880
powerhouse. 
They don't have a lot of cities.

426
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,480
It's really just the plancky 
town, which is maybe not quite a

427
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,280
city. 
There's a decent population 

428
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,120
there, but it's it's different. 
It's not a big political power. 

429
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:03,520
They don't wield a lot of power 
outside their own region. 

430
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,200
They certainly wield some. 
They we saw them get involved in

431
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,720
wars and maybe tilt the scales 
one way or another when Westeros

432
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,520
was dealing with the step stones
or fighting some of the fighting

433
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,520
against the Kingdom of the Three
Daughters or any of that stuff. 

434
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,720
Dorn was like a wild card that 
could have impact those 

435
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,640
scenarios. 
But they were never the the 

436
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,600
deciding factor. 
Doran was like, Oh no, Doran 

437
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,200
joined this side. 
That side's clearly going to 

438
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,320
win. 
They were never that big. 

439
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:34,760
What makes them special is their
internal workings, not how they 

440
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,320
affect the rest of the world. 
I suppose you could say so by 

441
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,720
promising trade deals or other 
things like that. 

442
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,400
It wasn't. 
It's not as interesting to them.

443
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,120
It doesn't get them as much if 
you tell the the people of lists

444
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:50,240
or of Volantis that you have an 
exclusive trade deal with 

445
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,560
Westeros, that's huge. 
But to Dorne they they don't do 

446
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,520
as much trade in the 1st place. 
It doesn't matter as much. 

447
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,520
They're not as interconnected 
with with with each other, with 

448
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,880
the rest of the round, with the 
rest of the world, which pros 

449
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,840
and cons. 
It means it's it's harder for 

450
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,320
them to be as valuable as an 
ally, but it's also harder to 

451
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,680
conquer them, right? 
I wonder too. 

452
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,640
I don't think it's mentioned how
much raiding was happening. 

453
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,640
We always know that throughout 
the the centuries throughout the

454
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,400
Eons, raids occurred back and 
forth between Stormlands, Reach 

455
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,080
and Dorne, vice versa, back and 
forth, etcetera. 

456
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,960
Was that still happening in the 
early days of after the 

457
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,720
conquest? 
If so, it might put a little 

458
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,840
more emphasis on egg on getting 
this done. 

459
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:41,000
It's like, look, there's this 
constant state of micro warfare 

460
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,160
happening here. 
This is not the King's peace. 

461
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,360
You need to do something about 
this. 

462
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,760
And you know, the obvious 
solution from a conqueror's 

463
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,040
perspective is just take the 
whole thing and then you don't 

464
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,280
have to worry about that 
anymore. 

465
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,160
Or you can, you can make it an 
internal issue and etcetera. 

466
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,080
It's no longer a a foreign enemy
attacking your Kingdom, it's a 

467
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,600
it's a it's unrest within your 
Kingdom, which makes you look 

468
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,320
better I guess when you're king 
it's weaker when you have 

469
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,440
outsiders attacking you and 
you're not doing anything about 

470
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,640
it, even if they're just Raiders
and they're not any political 

471
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,320
threat. 
Still someone like Aegon who's 

472
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,520
trying to show how strong he is 
and act through pure domination 

473
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,480
and always taking the challenge 
head on winning to show how 

474
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,160
strong he is, this is this would
bother him. 

475
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,080
Perhaps. 
Maybe. 

476
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,680
Maybe eke away at a little bit 
of his mystique, and I think he 

477
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,160
thought that was important. 
So. 

478
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,920
But peace is valuable now. 
Peace is a valuable thing on 

479
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,760
either side, right? 
That's something Dorman say. 

480
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,800
Well, yeah, OK, well we can. 
Maybe that's a thing. 

481
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,640
We don't care as much about the 
trade or the prestige or 

482
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,880
whatever. 
But peace, that's that's worth 

483
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,560
something. 
I'm not sure that Miria was 

484
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,480
someone who cared about it as 
much as maybe some of her 

485
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,400
descendants will. 
I I even think that she would 

486
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,160
care about it. 
But she doesn't care about it as

487
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,080
much as she cares about her 
independence or her legacy or 

488
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,360
all these other factors. 
And you know, that's like 

489
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,600
through history, especially in 
modern times, that's a common 

490
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:10,440
conflict between security, 
peace, you know, and 

491
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,960
independence, freedom. 
Those are often in conflict. 

492
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,360
And Nina points out, too, Aegon 
may not have wanted to look like

493
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,720
just a greedy conqueror. 
Like, I take everything, you 

494
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,440
know, he might might have take 
taken some time and done the 

495
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,560
negotiating route, perhaps not 
even thinking it would work. 

496
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,200
But just for optics is like, 
well, we can't just go attack 

497
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,920
everyone, you know. 
We should at least try to handle

498
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,280
things diplomatically first. 
And showing that he has that 

499
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,360
gear, you know, even if in his 
mind he's like oh we're probably

500
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,800
just going to. 
That way he can maybe make them 

501
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,960
look like the bad guy. 
He he he can sort of say, hey 

502
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,200
look we tried to find a 
peaceable solution. 

503
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,040
It just didn't work. 
It's like no one's going to make

504
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,920
the argument Why not just do 
nothing. 

505
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,520
Why not just leave them alone? 
You know, it's like well, that's

506
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,680
politics, right? 
He's he's saying he's he's 

507
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,520
creating his own argument by 
he's he's both creating the 

508
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,120
argument and answering it all at
once without while ignoring some

509
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:09,160
of the other issues here that 
that's that's that's the people 

510
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,920
that's that's like the whole 
history is written by the 

511
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,720
winners statement there. 
Like, he gets to decide how this

512
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,080
is framed because he's the one 
with the voice. 

513
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:19,800
It it is true though, given that
he's going to attack them, given

514
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,960
that it is his mission to unite 
Westeros. 

515
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,560
It didn't pan out this way. 
But he probably hoped that by 

516
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,440
offering peace first, he would 
look, maybe not look like the 

517
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,800
good guy but more the good guy 
And that maybe he wouldn't even 

518
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,920
need as much war. 
If like, the people of Dorne in 

519
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,840
general. 
Like, yeah, we want peace. 

520
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,640
We don't want this fight. 
That's myriad. 

521
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,040
That's that's some spear. 
We we're all happy to be part of

522
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,760
West Rose. 
Sure we're not going to fight 

523
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,640
back. 
You know, if if they understand 

524
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,360
he's offering peace. 
But it's the leaders that are 

525
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,760
once again a parallel to 
Vietnam. 

526
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,000
You know, like the people in 
America, like, why are we even 

527
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,520
doing this? 
You know, like, yeah. 

528
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,280
It's like, see, these Vietnamese
just refused to make peace. 

529
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,920
Like yo, you attacked them in 
the 1st place, you know, like. 

530
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,080
But people will forget. 
Yeah, people will forget that. 

531
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,880
Or they'll yeah, they will 
accept the framing without 

532
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,040
questioning it. 
Right. 

533
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,640
And they're even. 
Even then. 

534
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,440
It wasn't that simple too. 
Like, there was a bigger 

535
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,640
picture, right, that we're 
worried about Soviets taking 

536
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,320
over the world and they got a 
foot hold of Vietnam. 

537
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:16,600
So we got to do something about 
that. 

538
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,080
You know, Adrian feels like we 
have to unite Westeros series, 

539
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,800
however justified these reasons 
are that was what was 

540
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,560
underlined. 
So but The thing is in it it did

541
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,800
Eventually the people of America
were fed up and just, you know, 

542
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,960
political pressure became too 
much and the we we got out of 

543
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,760
there was and it was like a a 
mar. 

544
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,040
It was like a loss, you know, it
was like a what do you call it 

545
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,200
an embarrassment of defeat to 
you know, things America's not 

546
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,240
used to right. 
And so but it didn't happen. 

547
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,600
It's like the other way around 
here. 

548
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,400
Like eventually Aegon does stop,
right? 

549
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,120
Because it's they're so bogged 
down. 

550
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,440
The people of Vietnam weren't 
saying like, oh, since he 

551
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,280
offered peace, we'll go along 
with that and turn on our 

552
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,000
leaders. 
They didn't turn on our leaders.

553
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,200
They didn't. 
You're right. 

554
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,640
It was just it was more 
medieval. 

555
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,720
It was like we're on our team, 
we stay on our team. 

556
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,840
We don't care. 
We don't have considerations 

557
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,360
like human rights and and basic 
considerations for for the 

558
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:16,080
sanctity of life that that we 
hope to have here in 2024 that 

559
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,440
they definitely don't have 
there. 

560
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,240
A little bit of a tangent, but I
wonder how it would have been 

561
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,800
different because it is that one
different thing about Vietnam. 

562
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,880
Was it It was on TV. 
Everyone was seeing all this 

563
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,840
violence and destruction and 
then the loss of innocent lives.

564
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:31,920
I wonder if the people of Dorne,
because they're not as connected

565
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,480
with each other, they might not 
have realized how widespread the

566
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,520
the tragedy and loss was. 
I wonder if they if it would 

567
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,280
have changed anything if they 
did know better. 

568
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,400
That's a great point that we're 
going to get to because it's 

569
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,120
also going to come up for Egon 
and his armies. 

570
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,160
And it's like, well, what? 
Didn't we have a 3rd Army? 

571
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,200
What happened to that army? 
Like, we're not talking about 

572
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,760
them anymore. 
That's kind of ominous, You 

573
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:51,600
know? 
You're like, didn't. 

574
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,000
Weren't there some Storm Landers
then? 

575
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,160
They have an army like around 
here with us and like what 

576
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,320
happened to them? 
Well yeah, they're gone. 

577
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,680
That's going to happen. 
So that's we'll get to that 

578
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,560
later. 
So this whole another aspect of 

579
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,760
this is Aegon had already 
started calling himself King of 

580
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,040
the Roinar. 
That title that Robert has that 

581
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,040
we see the titles, titles, 
titles The King of the Roin. 

582
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,360
That wasn't like added when 
Doran finally came to the realm.

583
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,280
The Targaryen kings were saying 
that from the beginning like 

584
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,480
starting with Aegon and all the 
way through until it was 

585
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,160
actually true. 
It was not true for, you know, 

586
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,320
190 ish years, but they said it 
anyway. 

587
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,840
It was probably the darnish pro,
like, shaking their heads like, 

588
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,520
no, you're not, you are. 
Absolutely. 

589
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,720
You're not, I think. 
Does that mean that technically 

590
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,080
it's been untrue for more of the
Targaryen rain than it's? 

591
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,520
True. 
Good point. 

592
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,040
Yeah. 
Like, it's not like Danny isn't 

593
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,200
really like, she calls herself 
that, but she's not there 

594
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,160
either. 
So like I. 

595
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,640
Don't know. 
Yeah, it was only true for about

596
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,000
for about 100 years. 
Yeah. 

597
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,800
Not true for about almost 200. 
So yeah, that's really funny. 

598
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,600
Now there's it gets funnier 
though, in the real world, as 

599
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,520
silly as that is. 
The real world is way worse, 

600
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,440
like it often is. 
At the heart of the 100 Years 

601
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,920
War, which of course is England 
and France, going at it multiple

602
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,360
different times, of course, 
obviously didn't start and end 

603
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,640
with the same people involved 
when it's 100 years. 

604
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,480
Here there was the English 
Plantagenet, King Edward the 

605
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,840
Third, who is grandson of King 
Philip the 4th of France. 

606
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,160
They kept starting at 1340. 
The Kings of England added King 

607
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,600
of France to their title and 
kept doing that until the year 

608
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,840
1800. 
Napoleon finally scared him off.

609
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,200
Yeah. 
Napoleon, you're like, oh, OK, 

610
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,920
never mind. 
That was before Napoleon, I 

611
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,040
guess. 
It was he came. 

612
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,800
It was like another 40-50 years,
yeah, but still they saw him 

613
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,320
coming. 
They, they, they, they felt it 

614
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,000
coming. 
They're like something is 

615
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,440
coming. 
They had their own little 

616
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,960
prophecy of of snow and ice and.
In Russia. 

617
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,760
In Russia, yeah. 
And they, they thought of 

618
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,240
vanilla and chocolate and 
strawberry coming right at them.

619
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,080
And that's Neapolitan. 
That's not Napoleon. 

620
00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,880
Right. close. 
Yeah, very close. 

621
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,040
Very close. 
It could be a nice substitution 

622
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,360
to make if you could go back in 
time. 

623
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,640
Yeah, instead of invading 
Russia, you should have had ice 

624
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,360
cream. 
That's better. 

625
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,040
That's that's much better. 
OK, so let's go into this next 

626
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,240
section first. 
Blood and fire. 

627
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,920
This is how it begins. 
Quote. 

628
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,280
The start of the First Dornish 
War is generally fixed at 4 AC 

629
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,080
when Rainey's Targaryen returned
to Dorne. 

630
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,720
This time she came with fire and
blood, just as she had 

631
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,880
threatened. 
Riding Meraxes, the Queen 

632
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,600
descended out of a clear blue 
sky and set the planky town 

633
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,760
ablaze, the fires leaping from 
boat to boat until the whole 

634
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,920
mouth of the green Blood was 
choked with burning flotsam, and

635
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,160
the pillar of smoke could be 
seen as far away as Sunspear. 

636
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,120
The denizens of the floating 
town took to the river for 

637
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,120
refuge from the flames, so fewer
than 100 died in the attack, and

638
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,440
most of those from drowning 
rather than dragon fire. 

639
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,240
But first blood had been shed. 
It had indeed. 

640
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760
So remember that Plancki Town is
basically a boat city. 

641
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,680
The entire thing is a bunch of 
boats lashed together. 

642
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,440
Shops, homes, everything floats 
on the river as part of it. 

643
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,240
I've seen this. 
I've not obviously the Plancki 

644
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,520
Town, but I've seen something 
like this in Cambodia. 

645
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,080
Just large, large platforms all 
latched together, multiple boats

646
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,080
and then other platforms and 
edifices attached to that. 

647
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,280
It's it's pretty amazing 
actually, and not so it wasn't 

648
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,120
to this extreme, but you know, I
have seen something like that in

649
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,640
the real world now. 
Boats are extremely vulnerable 

650
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,480
to Dragons. 
Anything wooden is and this 

651
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,120
isn't moving like a lot of 
boats. 

652
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,320
And even moving boats are 
extremely vulnerable to Dragons 

653
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,800
because you know they're not 
that fast compared to a flying 

654
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:54,880
dragon and especially in this 
era you see very few anti dragon

655
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,080
type weaponry. 
There's going to be more of it 

656
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,360
because, well, people need it. 
But for a while there during the

657
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,400
before the Targaryen conquest 
between the Century of Blood and

658
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,320
the Fall of Valyria, there was a
time where the world may have 

659
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,760
for maybe not forgotten about 
the threat of Dragons, but it 

660
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,360
wasn't a problem. 
Like there weren't Dragons 

661
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,720
coming to attack your cities, or
it wasn't a concern. 

662
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,560
So items like scorpions and 
these larger bolt throwers might

663
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,360
have, there was less demand for 
them and thus there would be 

664
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,360
fewer people who knew how to 
make them and etcetera. 

665
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,360
Now that's obviously going to 
change, but certainly wasn't. 

666
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,160
Doran wasn't prepared at this 
point by any means for such a 

667
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,440
thing. 
Maybe they should have been. 

668
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,120
They may be, arguably they 
should have been. 

669
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,120
They probably knew that 
something like this was going to

670
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,600
happen. 
Or maybe they should have known 

671
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,840
that something like this was 
going to happen. 

672
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,160
After all, she promised to 
return targets, obviously 

673
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,520
showing they were more than 
willing to do this sort of thing

674
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,080
to just attack to basically 
unprovoked. 

675
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,640
And so, yeah, And it would have,
had they sat down to think about

676
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,040
where the Targaryens would 
attack. 

677
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,800
Well, the blanket town is at the
mouth of the green blood. 

678
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,760
It's a very kind of obvious 
target, right? 

679
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,760
It's, it's, if you look at the 
map, you can see where it is. 

680
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,600
So one of the reasons it's 
obvious is because it's so 

681
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,159
vulnerable, all the ships, all 
the people, and because Rainey's

682
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,960
could probably attack it without
being spotted from very far away

683
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,520
in the 1st place. 
She said she comes out of a 

684
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,840
clear blue sky, but she could 
have been flying over the ocean 

685
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,800
where it would have been harder 
to see her from a distance until

686
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,840
it was pretty close, until she's
right there and, you know, she 

687
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,920
probably made some people 
nervous, They're like, wait, is 

688
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,920
that a dragon? 
What? 

689
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,320
What is that? 
You know, from a distance? 

690
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,600
And then as she get closer and 
closer and you realize that 

691
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,560
she's moving fast and she's not 
veering away, and why would she 

692
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,800
be? 
Coming towards Plancky Town for 

693
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,880
any reason other than to attack 
would be like the sinking 

694
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,080
feeling that some few might have
and then panic might start to 

695
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,800
spread. 
And then that first blast of 

696
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,280
flame happens and then you know 
it's on and then people are 

697
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,400
jumping in the water right away.
There's no reason to stick 

698
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,120
around and wait. 
And that's why the casualties 

699
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,920
were relatively low. 
I guess is because while she's 

700
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,000
torching all these things, 
everyone else on the entire 

701
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,080
platform is jumping off, you 
know, so they they actually 

702
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:05,480
would have had a decent amount 
of time. 

703
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,360
Not that it makes their lives 
much easier afterwards, but they

704
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,800
did have an opportunity to jump 
off. 

705
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,720
A couple other factors are I 
think it's possible if not 

706
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:17,560
likely that a large portion had 
already been evacuated. 

707
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:21,240
They, I think there's I don't 
think it's unreasonable at all 

708
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:24,760
to think that they had an idea 
that something was coming right 

709
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,840
that not only in general they 
they know the threat has been 

710
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,360
put out there, but the 
mobilization of all these forces

711
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,840
that would have been noticed. 
That's a good point. 

712
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,440
Yeah. 
OK. 

713
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,160
Yeah, even without a particular 
spy network, I think scouts 

714
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,200
would have just observed it. 
They're just, you know, when you

715
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,240
mobilize 30,000 humans, that's 
going to have effect in 

716
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,560
surrounding your communities, 
Words going to spread. 

717
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,640
But if you do have scouts and 
spies in place, you would 

718
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,240
definitely know and Plankey Town
would have been a prime target, 

719
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,580
right? 
Like like every city quote UN 

720
00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:00,680
quote city, every castle 
village, whatever. 

721
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,640
Might have been on high alert, 
right? 

722
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,800
They the word might have been 
sent out in Planky Town, which 

723
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,160
would be particularly vulnerable
to dragon fire and a big 

724
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,760
population. 
It was all the reasons they they

725
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,080
went there. 
But the reason is Miria would 

726
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,960
know it's a place that might go,
right? 

727
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:14,960
So. 
I think there's a. 

728
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,680
Chance that there might have 
been some sort of plan in place 

729
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,560
already to to have people moved.
Out, or at least to put them on 

730
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,200
warning. 
Yeah, at least like let people 

731
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,160
know, like, 'cause it's a long 
time, you know, They never know 

732
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,680
when exactly it's going to come.
But that's a great point about 

733
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,720
the mobilization of the troops. 
And like, they had to know 

734
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:30,440
something was coming. 
You don't like, you like. 

735
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,880
And the 30,000 is the right 
number. 

736
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,960
That's how many Reachmen 
mobilized. 

737
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,000
And that's just the fighting, 
man. 

738
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,000
There's obviously other people 
in the army that are supporting 

739
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,000
it and supplies getting 
together, all that other stuff. 

740
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,240
Exactly. 
Because even if all the military

741
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:48,600
leaders were lips tight secretly
organizing 30,000 troops, it's 

742
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,800
just the people in town are just
going to notice this happening. 

743
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,080
All the wives and farmers you 
get, all the the food being 

744
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,560
gathered. 
It's just that's a huge 

745
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,920
commotion to not get noticed, to
not have word spreads. 

746
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,240
It also just doesn't really go 
with Aegon's like vibe. 

747
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:05,600
He is AI attack you head on and 
you know I'm coming and that's 

748
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,360
that way. 
There's no doubt as to who's 

749
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,160
stronger 'cause I didn't trick 
you, I wasn't clever. 

750
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,040
We took our best. 
It was strength versus strength 

751
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,680
and I came out ahead. 
That's that's how he likes to 

752
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,480
present his his victories. 
I think so like sneaking up and 

753
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,480
you know, we won because of the 
element of surprise. 

754
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,040
That's not how he wants to be 
portrayed. 

755
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,040
He wants to be portrayed as 
well, I won because I was 

756
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,400
stronger. 
Period. 

757
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,560
You know, and it's not hard to 
do when you have Valerian, but 

758
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:34,400
definitely he was disabused of 
some of what counts for strength

759
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,440
and and other people's 
willingness to just meet him 

760
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,560
head on like this. 
Well what if we just don't meet 

761
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,520
you head on? 
Mr. Giant Dragon. 

762
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,440
You know, he's like, Oh, well, I
don't know actually. 

763
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,200
I guess I win. 
I mean and he is he does seem a 

764
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,760
little confused by this strategy
even though to us it's kind of 

765
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,240
obviously well yeah of course 
you don't go fight the Dragon's 

766
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:57,320
head on this seems like the the 
obvious choice whereas the the 

767
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,000
folks in in Westeros the rest of
Westeros made the made the silly

768
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,840
choice Anyway it's pretty it's 
pretty evil stuff though right 

769
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,400
Just going in and burning like 
all these boats and all these 

770
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,200
people and. 
It is, don't get me wrong, 

771
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,040
because I want to point out even
if only 100 people died there, 

772
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,400
first of all only 100 people. 
I guess you can say that when it

773
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,880
might have been thousands, but 
it's so awful for 100 people to 

774
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,520
die. 
AB all the people who live lost 

775
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,520
their homes and their businesses
and their livelihood and 

776
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,480
everything else even outside the
context of the rest of dorm 

777
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,880
burning its crops to keep the 
the invading army from having 

778
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,480
anything to pillage. 
There's there's no way the rest 

779
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,840
of that population was just 
fine. 

780
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,280
I guarantee you people starved 
to death. 

781
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,680
People who didn't immediately 
die of burns ended up dying of 

782
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,680
burns. 
All the other problems that 

783
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,280
would come with an entire town 
being burned down it's it's not 

784
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:49,720
as simple as only 100 people 
died. 

785
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:53,560
There's a I just can't imagine 
the the drama, the anguish and 

786
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:55,960
everything that the rest of that
population had to go through in 

787
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,760
the coming days and weeks and 
even years to try to rebuild 

788
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,000
from that. 
The the every one of those 

789
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,680
hundred people had a mom, a 
cousin, you know, like all the 

790
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,040
families are upset. 
Yeah, so it's awful. 

791
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:07,960
Yeah, it is. 
Really. 

792
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,120
Yeah. 
But I do wonder. 

793
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,200
Another thing I wonder is if, 
especially because it doesn't 

794
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,160
seem like we're at Revenge mode 
yet, and so far a gun has just 

795
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,320
been trying to take out military
targets and win quick, easy 

796
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:21,600
victories without a lot of 
losses. 

797
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,040
He wants to rule the land, not 
destroy it, right? 

798
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:30,320
So I wonder if the dragon 
circled around a couple times, 

799
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,880
maybe a couple strafes a key 
spot right to to to block off 

800
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,160
the the the waterway Time might 
have been given for people to 

801
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,320
escape, is what I'm saying. 
She was letting people get away.

802
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,920
She's OK. 
Yeah, maybe that's entirely 

803
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:44,440
possible. 
Yeah. 

804
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,560
You got to throw that out there 
as a possibility. 

805
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,000
Or. 
Or it could be a lie. 

806
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,360
It could be a lot, maybe that 
maybe a lot more than 100 people

807
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:52,520
died, and that's just what was 
recorded. 

808
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,200
I don't see the. 
Point I don't want the numbers 

809
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,680
to get out. 
I don't see the point of that 

810
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,960
given how many people died and 
how vicious this war got. 

811
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,400
It's like, oh, but we're makes 
it look a little bit nicer. 

812
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,240
Now there's just. 
That's like 1 raindrop in a 

813
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,240
storm because of how vicious 
this whole thing was. 

814
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,920
So but it was at the beginning 
so, so maybe. 

815
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,160
But yeah, this was an attack, 
like you say, Sean, this wasn't 

816
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:10,800
a military target. 
This is an attack on people. 

817
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,560
This is like just burning a 
bunch of villages, important 

818
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,000
villages, like crucial villages,
food supplying villages. 

819
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,680
One of the great things about A 
Song of Ice and Fire is the pros

820
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,720
is so strong. 
There's so many great quotes, so

821
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:25,040
many lines that stick with you 
in the real world that you can 

822
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,560
refer to as touchstones. 
And one of them is here. 

823
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,680
You were just referring to what 
do you have left when you're 

824
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,680
everything you have is 
destroyed. 

825
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,320
All you have left is your life. 
Miri Mazdur has a quote on that.

826
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:42,520
Look to your call, she says when
and see what life is worth when 

827
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,880
all the rest is gone. 
Like when you everything you 

828
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,360
love, every person you love, all
the things you knew, like, what 

829
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,400
good is life at that point? 
You may as well be dead. 

830
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,320
Like your life is maybe not even
worth living at that point. 

831
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,600
And that's that's the point 
she's making. 

832
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,280
And that's the kind of point 
you're making here now. 

833
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,560
It's not quite as bad. 
They didn't. 

834
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,360
She didn't. 
These people didn't lose all 

835
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,440
their own people. 
There's still a lot of Dornish 

836
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,720
left and there's still a people 
they would like you said. 

837
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,320
They probably still have cousins
and mothers. 

838
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,520
Not as not quite as overwhelming
as what happened to Miriam 

839
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,960
Asdor. 
Her entire world was in that 

840
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,120
village, but the point is, it's 
very similar and the destruction

841
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,000
was strong. 
No matter how whether Rainey's 

842
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,600
gave them a little time or 
whether she just went full bore,

843
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,920
right away it turned into a full
blown conflagration. 

844
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,880
There was choking of the ships 
burning in the in the outcrop of

845
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,240
the harbor. 
There it was. 

846
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,520
It was like a dam, basically. 
Picture the battle of the 

847
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,280
Blackwater, right? 
The ships choked in the harbor 

848
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:38,880
there. 
It's very similar just dragon 

849
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,920
fire instead of wildfire and 
there would even be non normal 

850
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,480
looking flames cause Meraxis 
would be shooting silver flames.

851
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,240
From her ma I would assume she's
silver and that's usually how it

852
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:50,840
works right? 
So you would even have that 

853
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:51,880
going. 
You would even have the odd 

854
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,160
colored flames mixed with the 
normal colored flames. 

855
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,280
So a lot of battle of Blackwater
vibes there and this is when it 

856
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,960
gets kind of horrific. 
From a a historical perspective,

857
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,480
there's two, at least two things
that come up here that would be 

858
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,240
in the minds of a lot of Ruinish
people, especially the Dornish 

859
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:12,400
people with Ruinish blood, I 
should say, but just any Dornish

860
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,160
person. 
Because for one thing, it was 

861
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,160
Nymeria's burning of the ships 
that symbolize the end of their 

862
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,800
journey, she said, OK, this is, 
we've made it to Dorne after all

863
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,320
of our long wanderings, our 
odyssey basically, And this is 

864
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,320
where we're staying and to 
symbolize that and to truly 

865
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,800
invest in our new home, we're 
going to destroy our ships. 

866
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,000
We're going to burn all our 
ships. 

867
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,600
It's a famous moment. 
It's portrayed on our maps and 

868
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,400
it's just a great scene from 
Westeros history. 

869
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,560
And here it is kind of turned 
around on them, like, yeah, now 

870
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,000
you're stuck here. 
All your ships, we burn them. 

871
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,880
And it's that that whole it's 
your new home is being turned 

872
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,000
against them, it's being 
inverted. 

873
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,840
And the other memory would be of
course, farther back, the 

874
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,320
beginning of Nightmare's 
journey, when all their cities 

875
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,000
were burned by Dragons when they
had to leave in the 1st place. 

876
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,400
And now here they go and hack 
again. 

877
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,200
They're all living on a river. 
And these Dragons come and burn 

878
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,600
all their river cities and drive
them away in their ships and 

879
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,120
they flee And that's. 
So this is, this is a lot of 

880
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,920
like historical trauma that's 
being raised by this attack, 

881
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,160
especially considering it's the 
same. 

882
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,680
It's descendants of those same 
people. 

883
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,000
You have the descendants of the 
Valyrians inflicting a similar 

884
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:31,000
level of devastation and unjust 
warfare on the descendants of 

885
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,240
the Roinar. 
It's it's pretty heavy and and 

886
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:36,560
there'd be nothing they could do
in the longer term. 

887
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,200
I like I pointed out, yeah, they
might get a hold of some 

888
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,080
scorpions, some some bolt 
throwers, some extra bows here 

889
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,600
and there, but here, early on 
they may not have had much 

890
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,720
waiting. 
Even with the notion that there 

891
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,720
might have been something 
coming, even with the idea that 

892
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,400
they should be prepared, they 
clearly didn't have a whole lot.

893
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:59,800
So yeah, it's it's pretty heavy.
Now one other Speaking of Danny 

894
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,200
and Mary Mazduer, yet another 
parallel comes to mind here, 

895
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,920
which is that Danny has the 
vision of the Crohn's of the 

896
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,000
dash, Kellene bowing before her 
while dripping wet. 

897
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,400
Which makes me think of this 
because they I, I I feel like 

898
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,080
they jump into the water the the
womb of the world, to maybe 

899
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:25,040
escape Danny's conflagration 
that she brings on them, which 

900
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,360
might be happening in the winds 
of winter. 

901
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,240
That vision will have to get 
fulfilled somehow, and the only 

902
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,080
reason I could ever perceive of 
them being wet was because they 

903
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,720
were underwater or they jumped 
into the water potentially. 

904
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:39,680
Well, you haven't fantasized 
about the ladies of the Dosh 

905
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,720
Colonica. 
Different kind of wet, huh? 

906
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,320
Yikes. 
They could have been trapped in 

907
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,640
the rain. 
The rain, yeah 'cause we're all 

908
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:48,520
in the rainfall. 
Very. 

909
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,600
We're APG Show. 
Very common in the Dothraki sea.

910
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,880
Yeah. 
So rainies didn't come alone. 

911
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,640
This time though, she didn't 
just come with a dragon. 

912
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,080
Start burning the planky town. 
Well, she. 

913
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,120
Didn't come alone this time. 
She come with Aegon Okay. 

914
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:02,800
I'm sorry. 
I'm done. 

915
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,240
I'm done. 
Your minds in the Yeah. 

916
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,880
So she was sort of by herself 
but because she's the only one 

917
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,600
attacking the Plankey town. 
But there were two other 

918
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,120
invasion forces that came 
simultaneously that came 

919
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,560
simultaneously. 
You're you just can't get away 

920
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,400
from this now. 
Anyway, quote. 

921
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,480
Elsewhere, Oris Baratheon LED 
1000 picket Knights up the Bone 

922
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,040
Way, whilst Aegon himself 
marched through the Prince's 

923
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,920
Pass at the head of an army 
30,000 strong, led by near 2000 

924
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,640
mounted Knights and 300 Lords 
and bannermen. 

925
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,280
Lord Harlan Tyrell, the Warden 
of the South, was heard to say 

926
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:49,120
that they had more than enough 
power to smash any Dornish army 

927
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,320
that tried to stand before them,
even without Agon and Valerian. 

928
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,400
No doubt he had the right of 
that, but the issue was never 

929
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,880
proved, for the Dornish men 
never offered battle. 

930
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:05,320
Instead, they withdrew before 
King Aegon's Host, burning their

931
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,480
crops in the field and poisoning
every well. 

932
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,720
Yeah, so that's kind of an 
interesting strategy too. 

933
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,160
I love that point of this guy. 
Just goes to show how 

934
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:19,960
unprepared, how naive they were.
Any army that tries to stand 

935
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,880
before us will smack well, none 
of them tried to stand before 

936
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,960
you, just simple as that. 
It really just is that simple. 

937
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,800
Like, well, we're just not going
to stand before you, we're just 

938
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,640
not going to face you. 
Like, why would we? 

939
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,080
So the vast majority, though, it
says it's a, it's a very uneven 

940
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,120
pair of advance of of invasion 
forces. 

941
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,280
You've got 30,000 going through 
the Prince's Pass and 1000 

942
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,240
through the Bone way. 
It kind of makes sense in a way 

943
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,160
because the Bone Way's a lot 
harder. 

944
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,200
It's a lot nastier. 
A lot stonier. 

945
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,000
It's called the Stone Way. 
The Bone Way is the nickname 

946
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,760
because of how deadly it is. 
But it's still not a good idea. 

947
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,200
Less men, more men is still a 
bad idea, still really 

948
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,480
difficult. 
And there were, apart from 

949
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,200
what's being described here, 
with the burning of the crops 

950
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,440
and the and the fields and the 
poisoning of the wells, there 

951
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,720
was also night attacks, raids, 
rocks being rolled down from the

952
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:09,360
heights, things like that. 
All sorts of little things that 

953
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,720
would really add up. 
And maybe they don't kill that 

954
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,960
many people, but they really, 
really impact the morale of the 

955
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,520
army. 
You're up, you're in your tent. 

956
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,120
You're just like, worried about 
that. 

957
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,400
You're you got anxiety about 
where the next attack is going 

958
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,160
to come from. 
And you might have gone in 

959
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:27,960
confident, you might have been 
like, yeah, we're all marching. 

960
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,320
Look at how big our army is. 
Our leaders are really confident

961
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,760
that that confidence will will 
trickle down to you. 

962
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,560
Maybe you're already confident 
anyway, but as time passes, and 

963
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:41,000
with every poisoned well, every 
burned field, every day that 

964
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,760
passes without any sort of real 
progress and you're just 

965
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,920
marching around and the Dornish 
aren't fighting you, your 

966
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,920
confidence is going to start to 
ebb away. 

967
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,080
Like this is the thing I said at
the beginning about putting 

968
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,400
yourself in their place and 
thinking about how this is 

969
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:54,880
going. 
You start off feeling great 

970
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,320
about it, but then you start, 
there's some cracks in your 

971
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,960
confidence and then it starts to
like full blown fall apart 

972
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,040
because it's hard to be 
confident when you're not 

973
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,480
confident and then throw in 
hunger, like think about how 

974
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,040
hard it is to to do anything 
properly when you're hungry. 

975
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,560
I mean, I'm a great example of 
that. 

976
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:15,960
I get pretty angry. 
I would be hopeless in this 

977
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,280
scenario and some people 
wouldn't have been confident 

978
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:20,480
going in. 
Some of them would have been 

979
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,240
frightened from the get go and 
this would just make them like 

980
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:28,000
pure panic attacks, anxiety 
attacks and then and then it 

981
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,880
would snowball. 
To use a metaphor that is 

982
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,440
entirely inappropriate for Dorne
Snowball. 

983
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,920
But the hunger, the anxiety, the
lack of sleep, all these things 

984
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,720
would build like they'd get 
worse and worse. 

985
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:41,840
Your anxiety would grow, your 
lack of sleep would fuel the 

986
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,160
anxiety, your panic, your 
inability, and then you're just 

987
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,280
not a very good soldier, right? 
If you ever were in the first 

988
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,240
place. 
Keep in mind some of these 

989
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,000
things you know you would have 
the common soldiers if you will,

990
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,400
but the leaders, they would go 
through this too. 

991
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,840
They would also suddenly have 
extra anxiety and fear and be 

992
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,840
losing sleep. 
You'd have to set up new guards 

993
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,240
systems, new like night watches 
or whatever. 

994
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:07,720
Just all they have to do is 
attack one time in the middle of

995
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:11,800
the night and kill one person. 
Now 10 people are not getting 

996
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,600
sleep every night now because 
they have to pull guard duty to 

997
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,160
prevent against that. 
And kind of like how I said 

998
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,760
before for the those hundred 
killed at Planky Town, each one 

999
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,760
of them would have had a family,
a friend, you know, a lot more 

1000
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,440
was there was more loss than 
just each of those persons 

1001
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,720
lives. 
It was what they were 

1002
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:31,800
contributing to the community 
and their family and everything.

1003
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,440
When one soldier dies, they've 
got a buddy, they've got a 

1004
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,120
teammate, a Sergeant, a 
subordinate. 

1005
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,880
They have, you know, friends. 
They have a responsibility 

1006
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,840
there. 
They were supposed to pull guard

1007
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,440
duty tomorrow night or sharpen a
sword to feed the hoard, 

1008
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,640
whatever they were doing. 
Now someone else has to do it. 

1009
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,880
So plus they heat, you know, on 
and on. 

1010
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,640
It's, yeah, it's so much that 
that. 

1011
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,160
There's so many facts we can't 
even name them all. 

1012
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,320
And that that's a really good 
point, Sean, about the the way 

1013
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:59,640
the duties will have to be done 
even as you become less capable 

1014
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,000
of doing them. 
Whether or not men have been 

1015
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,400
lost or not, which they probably
have like just anyone who's like

1016
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,880
ever worked a shift at a 
restaurant or a store when 

1017
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,680
you're understaffed, just 
picture that but but and put 

1018
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,160
your imagine to being a life and
death situation instead. 

1019
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,480
It's awful, the non life and 
death version of this, but the 

1020
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,680
life and death version of it, 
it's kind of unless you've been 

1021
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,680
in it, it's probably pretty much
unfathomable. 

1022
00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:23,760
And this is this style of 
warfare. 

1023
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,640
Warfare is familiar to us. 
We've all heard of guerrilla 

1024
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,560
warfare before. 
We talked about it before. 

1025
00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:30,320
You've probably talked about it 
or heard about it on other shows

1026
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,280
or elsewhere in your life. 
But the the Dornish especially 

1027
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,360
or or we even associate this 
with them and we have been doing

1028
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,160
that ever since early in the 
song of Ice and Fire. 

1029
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,080
Ever, even before these 
histories were explored. 

1030
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,480
You kind of got the vibe, but 
that was what Doran was about. 

1031
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,800
That's their style of warfare. 
You know, we've we've seen it 

1032
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,400
just based on parallels to the 
real world is kind of what you 

1033
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,680
expected. 
But the rest of the Seven 

1034
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,120
Kingdoms, they saw the the way 
that everybody fought Aegon and 

1035
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:57,960
expected to be the same and it 
just wasn't. 

1036
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,160
And yeah, Doran worships the 
same gods as the rest of 

1037
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,080
Westeros, so they have Knights, 
Lords and ladies. 

1038
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,240
So, you know, to be fair, there 
was a lot of things in place 

1039
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:10,120
that would make it seem like 
they might do things similarly. 

1040
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,800
But there was so much that that 
showed it how wrong they were. 

1041
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,960
Because even if you say, OK, 
Aegon and Rainey's and, well, 

1042
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,960
Basena's not here, but even her 
advice would have been part of 

1043
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,800
the campaign planning strategy. 
OK, so they're not used to 

1044
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,000
guerrilla campaigns. 
Maybe they didn't expect that, 

1045
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,040
but their allies did. 
Their allies should have the 

1046
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,760
Reachman, the Stormlanders. 
Where was their advice? 

1047
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,560
Where was their? 
Maybe the maybe Aegon didn't 

1048
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:41,360
listen to them or or many of the
veterans of the Stormlands died 

1049
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,720
fighting Argillac alongside 
Argillac the Arrogant. 

1050
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:49,760
That was a very bloody campaign 
amidst the whole conquest, which

1051
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,320
we talked about with Jim 
Mcgeehan in our Battle of the in

1052
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,920
the Battle of the Stormlands. 
That Battle of Last Storm 

1053
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,240
rather. 
And so maybe a lot of that 

1054
00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:00,840
wisdom that would have been 
because it's really the 

1055
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,640
storylines that fought even more
that they had the really vicious

1056
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,560
relationship. 
Argalac and Myriad. 

1057
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,600
So maybe or his veterans would 
have been the ones that had the 

1058
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,600
most to say that Eggon might 
have listened to, but they just 

1059
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,240
weren't. 
They weren't there. 

1060
00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:15,200
They were dead. 
They all. 

1061
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:20,560
They died next to Meraxis and 
Oris and and Argalac and well, 

1062
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,120
not next to next to the first 
two who lived and Oris who 

1063
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,240
didn't. 
So what might have outweighed 

1064
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,200
their potential wisdom might 
have been a quest for revenge or

1065
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,480
a bolstered confidence, since 
they had allies going with them 

1066
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:33,160
so. 
That's true. 

1067
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,400
And and so many men lost in the 
field of fire as well. 

1068
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,560
So like this, maybe some smarter
Reachman, those who might have 

1069
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:44,880
known better might have died. 
So yeah, now there was some 

1070
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,080
experience Stargarians had with 
this, like remember her? 

1071
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,520
And the Black Suns did a 
surprise attack at the Battle of

1072
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,640
the Wailing Widows and all that,
but it wasn't, it wasn't 

1073
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,560
anything like this. 
And those were maybe like 1 

1074
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,680
offs. 
This is like a constant thing, 

1075
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,440
like every night they feared 
night attacks. 

1076
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,720
I don't get the impression that 
Aegon's campaign was worried 

1077
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:04,800
about that. 
In their March to the 

1078
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,520
Riverlands. 
It was like oh they got us this 

1079
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,600
one time, but that's very 
unlikely to happen again. 

1080
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,280
They'd like for one thing 
Aegon's chased after them and 

1081
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,320
burned them. 
So it's like well these same. 

1082
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,400
It certainly won't be the same 
group doing that. 

1083
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:18,960
And Heron's sons were amongst 
them. 

1084
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,400
So like yeah the opportunity 
just wasn't there. 

1085
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,440
It's it's not dorned the they 
don't have mountains to hide in.

1086
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,960
They don't have mountain rocks 
to roll down on you when you're 

1087
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,360
in the Riverlands. 
You know it just the the terrain

1088
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,200
is just totally different ball 
game and of course it's smarter.

1089
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:34,720
We've said this over and over. 
We probably will. 

1090
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:38,240
It's it's yes, this is clearly a
better way to fight Dragons. 

1091
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,120
Hiding in caves means the 
Dragons can't scout you out and 

1092
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,840
see you from a distance, which 
was also a factor in the in the 

1093
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,480
storm lands with the trees, 
which is why they burned all the

1094
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,560
trees. 
That comes back to our Vietnam 

1095
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:51,960
example and the napalm and all 
that. 

1096
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,080
So are the Dornish being smart? 
I I'd say yes to a certain 

1097
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,720
extent, but I think a bigger 
aspect is just the Targaryen and

1098
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:01,640
the Allies are being dumb and 
the Dornish are just like, yeah,

1099
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,120
let them be dumb. 
Let's allow them their dumbness 

1100
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,120
to ruin them and we'll just play
around that. 

1101
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,240
So yeah, I don't think it was an
advanced strategy by that. 

1102
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:12,440
I don't think the Dornish were 
doing something they hadn't done

1103
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,440
before. 
This wasn't some new adaptive 

1104
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,920
strategy. 
It was just used against an 

1105
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,160
enemy that they hadn't faced 
before or or at least since the 

1106
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:22,640
days of Valyria, but not in 
Dorne. 

1107
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:23,720
What do you think about that, 
Sean? 

1108
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:25,040
Do you? 
Would you say it's more about 

1109
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,440
the Targaryens being naive or 
semantics maybe? 

1110
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,640
A little of both. 
I want to point out one thing 

1111
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,280
that might be different about 
this is it Dorne is doing it as 

1112
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:41,120
a nation instead of like, you 
know, towns on the borders where

1113
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,280
these skirmishes happen 
sometimes, right. 

1114
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,160
It's different for all the Dorn 
to be doing it. 

1115
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,600
Does that make sense? 
And I and I again, I do think 

1116
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,200
that. 
So, you know, maybe that's the 

1117
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,480
way a difference, if you will, 
maybe Dorn ramped up, you know, 

1118
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,280
just the coordination to have 
these different towns be emptied

1119
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,360
out takes a level that wouldn't 
have been there just because 

1120
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:05,920
like, you know, some some March 
or army, some, you know, some, 

1121
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,760
some conflict up in some 
mountain passes, that doesn't 

1122
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,600
make the people in Planking town
do anything differently. 

1123
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:11,840
Does that make sense? 
Yeah, that's true. 

1124
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,040
That's. 
So so door doing it as a whole 

1125
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,680
might be something that's new or
underestimated or and and also 

1126
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,240
you know I think that that it it
does seem like Aegon's forces 

1127
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:25,280
are making some mistakes. 
But I still think that they it 

1128
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,120
would have been hard to really 
see how all this was going to go

1129
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,680
right even if they had tried to 
amend some of these mistakes. 

1130
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,880
Like I said, like say they had 
loaded up boats with supplies 

1131
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,680
and then the boats are waiting 
there in the northern coast of 

1132
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,040
of Dorne like oh, it wouldn't 
have mattered they never got 

1133
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:41,960
there anyway. 
There's a lot of mistakes they 

1134
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,360
might have accounted for and it 
wouldn't have been enough to 

1135
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,200
really stop the the all out 
effort that Doran was going 

1136
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:52,440
through or I can even imagine 
some people just like in Doran 

1137
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,640
despite all the losses. 
Doran, as bad as it is for this 

1138
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,760
force coming down, it's it's 
it's especially right here in 

1139
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,320
the beginning. 
I think the overall losses for 

1140
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,000
Doran were probably greater, but
it never made Doran want to back

1141
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,400
down. 
I don't think all these troops 

1142
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,920
that have been in conflict with 
Doran forever or like, Oh well 

1143
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,880
they beat us in one battle or we
might lose some soldiers they 

1144
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,320
they might get us with the 
guerrilla tactics. 

1145
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,640
I guess we shouldn't do it like 
dates are. 

1146
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,440
Just like in real world, when 
people have grudges, when 

1147
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,560
there's generations long, you 
know, conflicts have been going 

1148
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,280
on, people make mistakes. 
They just charge him with this 

1149
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,360
foolhardy braveness. 
Just 'cause they want revenge, 

1150
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,200
you know? 
Yeah, hate is a really powerful 

1151
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,720
drug, isn't it? 
Yeah. 

1152
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,640
It really is so and and there's 
some other considerations too. 

1153
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,320
Again, we try really hard to put
ourselves in their minds, both 

1154
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,040
sides of this and all minds in 
between the people who were in 

1155
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:48,440
control or just following along.
And it's sometimes you can't do 

1156
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:49,960
that, but we do. 
We try to do our best. 

1157
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,640
And I think that if you try to 
have like the mindset of Aegon, 

1158
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,360
who's ultra confident, ultra 
like macho almost would be to 

1159
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,800
use a modern term, he's not 
going to look at this as 

1160
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,640
something he can back down on 
again. 

1161
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,880
Nymeria united Dorn and she 
didn't have Dragons, she didn't 

1162
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,160
have a big army. 
She had refugees, right. 

1163
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,400
She had way less than Aegon and 
she did this. 

1164
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,320
How's Aegon going to look at 
that and be like, well, if she 

1165
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,000
can do it, I I can do it and I 
should be able to do it easier 

1166
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,200
because I have a lot more than 
she did, right? 

1167
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,320
From his perspective, from what 
he thinks power derives from, 

1168
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,080
from where he thinks strength 
comes from, the way he 

1169
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,480
approaches these problems is 
very different than how my 

1170
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,120
nightmare did. 
Nightmare a lot played people 

1171
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,720
off each other. 
She used alliances a lot. 

1172
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:40,760
She had didn't have these 
obviously overwhelming powers to

1173
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,960
use so she had to use more 
cleverness and and things like 

1174
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:46,960
that. 
Not that Aegon wasn't clever. 

1175
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,480
It's just he didn't have to be 
clever and and we we don't use 

1176
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,720
your clever muscles they atrophy
right. 

1177
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:56,400
So he he also that also means 
he's not as clever in 

1178
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,920
deciphering his opponent's 
cleverness and predicting 

1179
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,880
cleverness. 
He expects them to be a little 

1180
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,240
more like him and face him head 
on and just this is how we prove

1181
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:05,760
who the strongest is. 
It's me. 

1182
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:12,200
But so he's got to be like, this
woman did this, but I can't do 

1183
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:13,640
it. 
Like, that's crazy to him, you 

1184
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:14,720
know? 
And it's crazy to a lot of 

1185
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,720
Westeros because they're also 
very much drinking that same 

1186
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,720
kool-aid of there's definitely 
very a woman can't conquer 

1187
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:24,240
something that a man can't 
conquer. 

1188
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:25,720
Like, that's crazy to them, 
right? 

1189
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,280
That doesn't make any sense in 
their worldview, especially when

1190
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,160
there's also women on their side
with Dragons. 

1191
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:32,880
So, like, they've got both of 
that things covered. 

1192
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,240
They've got all that covered. 
So they just can't understand. 

1193
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,560
They can't conceive losing here.
They've got the bigger army. 

1194
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:44,080
They've got the UN unbroken 
advantage of Dragons. 

1195
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,360
They've got so much, they just 
even though we can look at it 

1196
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,480
and say, yeah, that there's also
so many problems, but they just 

1197
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,640
don't see those problems as 
being able to overcome their 

1198
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:57,080
advantages. 
So who knows how long it had 

1199
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,880
been since there had been a full
on war against Dorne. 

1200
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,280
You know, we we've heard that 
Argolac had turned back a 

1201
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,000
Dornish invasion early in his 
reign, which is pretty 

1202
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,360
interesting. 
And given how long Miria has 

1203
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,200
been alive, I mean she's in her,
she's not going to die till her 

1204
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:18,960
90s and she was probably the one
that launched that invasion or 

1205
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,920
was at least the her father or 
mother did. 

1206
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,760
And so she's got a lot of 
experience with this. 

1207
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,680
She may have some experience in 
ways of warfare between these 

1208
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:33,120
the kingdoms that we aren't able
to suss out and things that even

1209
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,240
Egon and his counselors wouldn't
have been aware of. 

1210
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:39,840
So that's pretty big deal too 
her, her long term wisdom and 

1211
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,600
experience is something that we 
should assume played a big role,

1212
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,400
even if we can't be detailed 
about how it manifested as a 

1213
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:49,760
strategy. 
But maybe this whole avoidance 

1214
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,680
strategy was just her plan from 
the beginning. 

1215
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,040
It was like, well, this is how 
we're going to do it. 

1216
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,480
I mean, they must have been 
confused that no one met them in

1217
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,120
the passes. 
Like, wouldn't this is a good 

1218
00:59:58,120 --> 00:59:59,920
place to fight. 
Like if you're going to stop an 

1219
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,400
army from entering your 
territory, it's in this narrow 

1220
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,840
area where they can't use, they 
can't spread out and get around 

1221
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:07,800
you like they're 30,000 men, 
can't envelope you. 

1222
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,120
But they chose not to even fight
them in the passes where numbers

1223
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,480
wouldn't wouldn't tell which 
might have given moreover 

1224
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,000
confidence to the invasion. 
Like what? 

1225
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,600
They won't even face us. 
They won't even you take take. 

1226
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,440
Their best defensive positions, 
when they're given to them, they

1227
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,680
won't even use that. 
So they're they must be afraid. 

1228
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:26,400
They would tell themselves that,
right? 

1229
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,200
They're afraid that that that's 
what this mindset is. 

1230
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,320
If you're the type of people 
that you always decide, decide 

1231
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,840
things, bond, pitched battle, 
and someone won't have a pitched

1232
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,400
battle with you. 
You tell themselves, you're you 

1233
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:38,960
tell them, you tell yourself 
they're afraid. 

1234
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,200
That's we. 
We saw that. 

1235
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,000
We've seen that a few times in 
In A Song of Ice and Fire as 

1236
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:44,880
well. 
By the way, they were afraid, 

1237
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,080
but that doesn't mean that they 
gave up, right? 

1238
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:49,560
Right, very important 
distinction. 

1239
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,080
True, a lot of times you make 
some great decisions out of 

1240
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,800
fear, right? 
Yeah, like why would like why 

1241
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,920
would you? 
Again, It's it's being afraid of

1242
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,160
something. 
Doesn't mean you're a coward or 

1243
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:02,160
that you shouldn't be afraid of 
it. 

1244
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,160
Yeah, I'm afraid of Dragons. 
If they were real, I'd be afraid

1245
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:05,400
of that. 
It doesn't make me lesser. 

1246
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,720
It makes me like, sensible. 
It makes like normal. 

1247
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,720
Like, yes, you should be afraid 
of something that can kill you 

1248
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:17,360
with like 0% effort, you know, 
by accident, just like it 

1249
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,640
sneezes and you're dead. 
You know, like that's that's 

1250
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:25,680
what we're dealing with here. 
If only the Targaryens had a a 

1251
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,160
some sort of beverage or 
something that made them 

1252
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:30,760
smarter. 
Something that that helps them 

1253
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,560
think through things more 
thoroughly. 

1254
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,720
Wine. 
No, I don't think wine would 

1255
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,080
help with that. 
Magic wine might, maybe would, 

1256
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:41,680
but no. 
I'm talking about magic, mind I 

1257
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:46,800
I I've one thing I've noticed in
the difference between drinking 

1258
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,680
it and not drinking it. 
Like I've we've had it around, 

1259
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:51,640
off and on long enough. 
We've got another shipment 

1260
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,080
coming in shortly. 
I've been at without it for a 

1261
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,520
little while. 
I kind of noticed like when we 

1262
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:58,440
first had it and then I didn't 
have it. 

1263
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,360
I've gone off and on with it a 
few Times Now that I can sort of

1264
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:06,680
tell that I need it again. 
I want, I want, even if it's 

1265
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,680
only a small boost in my focus 
and who would ever measure 

1266
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:10,960
something? 
Maybe it's a large boost in my 

1267
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,280
focus. 
You know, you don't want to give

1268
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:14,560
that up. 
Once you have something, once 

1269
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:16,080
you're a little, once you have 
something that makes you 

1270
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,640
function a little better, it's 
you want to keep that going. 

1271
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,760
Yeah, I mean, tell us a coffee 
drinkers. 

1272
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,400
Yes, makes it very Yeah, it's 
not that wrong. 

1273
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:26,800
I just made an Order of Magic 
mine myself last night, by the 

1274
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,120
way. 
I just ran out of what they had 

1275
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,240
sent it so. 
It's like, yeah, like I said, 

1276
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,240
you were saying with coffee, 
it's, yes, coffee is addictive, 

1277
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,360
but the benefits are still 
there. 

1278
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,360
Like you want those benefits and
it's addictive. 

1279
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,680
So getting rid of the addictive 
part is good because you can 

1280
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,960
still have those benefits. 
You can still get the boost, the

1281
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,320
focus, the clarity, but with 
less of the jitters and the 

1282
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,800
like. 
I got to have this feeling the 

1283
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,920
the borderline addictiveness, if
not full blown addictiveness. 

1284
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,280
So that's pretty valuable, I 
think. 

1285
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,080
I think it's tastier too, but 
that's also a very much. 

1286
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,680
Your mileage may vary. 
Yeah, that's very true. 

1287
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:06,720
Taste really does vary. 
But that's one thing I like 

1288
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,000
about magic. 
Mine too is it mixes really 

1289
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:09,240
well. 
You can have it straight. 

1290
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:11,240
Sean often says he has it 
straight, but you've mixed it 

1291
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:13,000
with your in your concoctions as
well. 

1292
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,760
And I've done the same thing. 
Have it over ice, have it as a 

1293
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,760
shot, mix it in with other 
juices, just have it with water,

1294
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,520
just dilute it, you know? 
That's fine too. 

1295
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:22,960
Which is cool too. 
Like, just like coffee, you've 

1296
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:24,400
got a bajillion ways to drink 
it. 

1297
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,760
And magic mind, same thing. 
Only this January they help you 

1298
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,360
gear up to crush your 2024 New 
Year's Resolutions. 

1299
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,080
Fully focused. 
It's a good time for that. 

1300
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:37,120
If you're making changes in your
life in January, it's a good 

1301
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,840
time for that. 
Everybody's thinking about it, 

1302
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,320
so why not get on that 
groupthink bandwagon when it's 

1303
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:43,720
something positive, do that, you
know? 

1304
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:47,280
Like, I'm not a groupthink guy, 
but sometimes we all do the same

1305
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,520
thing because it's smart, 
because it makes sense. 

1306
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,480
It's good. 
I I think New Year's Resolutions

1307
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:54,800
are one of those things where 
you know you can get a little 

1308
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:56,120
too far with it. 
You can get a little too gung 

1309
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:58,040
ho. 
I I've, I've spoken about this 

1310
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:02,600
before set yourself a target. 
Don't set a goal because goals 

1311
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,360
if you don't reach it you can be
disappointed. 

1312
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,280
But if you get a target is like 
a general idea and if you get, 

1313
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,600
if you if you do pretty well, 
you can still pump yourself up a

1314
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,040
little and keep your motivation 
going. 

1315
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:13,960
And I go, I could not keep that 
going. 

1316
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:18,280
I suck you know give yourself a 
softer landing and Magic Mind 

1317
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,600
can help with that. 
You got one month for free when 

1318
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:25,360
you're subscribing for three 
months at magicmind.com/jan 

1319
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,160
Westeros. 
That's Jan like the month 

1320
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,280
Westeros. 
And if you add in the code 

1321
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:33,040
Westeros 20, you get up to 75% 
off total because the Westeros 

1322
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,040
20 will get you 20% more off. 
It's only going to last till the

1323
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,440
end of January, so hurry up 
before it goes away. 

1324
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,040
That's magicmind.com/jan 
Westeros. 

1325
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,080
Let's get into the ground 
invasion. 

1326
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:49,560
We've talked about the first air
strike on Plankey Town, but we 

1327
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:54,080
saw and we discussed the troop 
dispositions. 30,000 men going 

1328
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:57,360
South through the Princess past 
1000 picked Knights heading 

1329
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,760
through the Bone Way. 
And here's what happened Next 

1330
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,200
quote. 
The invaders found the Dornish 

1331
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:07,280
watchtowers in the Red 
Mountains, slighted and 

1332
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,640
abandoned in the high passes. 
Agons Vanguard found its way, 

1333
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,400
barred by a wall of sheep 
carcasses. 

1334
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:19,760
Shorn of all wool and too rotted
to eat, the King's army was 

1335
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:23,360
already running short of food 
and fodder by the time they 

1336
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,320
emerged from the Princess Pass 
to face the Dornish sands. 

1337
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:33,440
There Aegon divided his forces, 
sending Lord Tyrell S against 

1338
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:37,840
Uthor Uller, Lord of the 
Helholt, whilst he himself 

1339
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,680
turned eastward to besiege Lord 
Fowler in his mountain fastness,

1340
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,240
Skyreach. 
So yeah, as I said, the Princess

1341
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:48,960
Pass is the Western one, an 
easier route, though certainly 

1342
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,160
not easy. 
And there is an army waiting in 

1343
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,000
the Princess Pass. 
It's starting at the start of 

1344
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:55,800
The Winds of Winter and another 
in the Bone Way. 

1345
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:01,120
They have standing orders to 
either open, go into the Seven 

1346
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:05,280
Kingdoms that attack or or not. 
And it's an interesting sort of 

1347
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:06,640
situation that's developing 
there. 

1348
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,480
Now again, I said this would be 
a great place to confront an 

1349
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:13,480
invading army, and the reason 
they didn't was Valerian. 

1350
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:17,000
Like their defenses aren't what 
they normally would be with a 

1351
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,920
big old black dragon just 
raining fire down on them. 

1352
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:20,600
It wouldn't work. 
It wouldn't work that way that. 

1353
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,120
This would normally be a great 
place to confront an army, yeah,

1354
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,480
but it's not a great place to 
confront an army and a dragon. 

1355
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,760
Yes, good point. 
Good way to say it. 

1356
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:31,040
Good. 
Sad Sean. 

1357
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:35,120
Now we so Aegon split his army. 
Makes a lot of sense to do that 

1358
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:40,280
because you're it's so hard to 
get food and you you have army 

1359
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,840
splits up, it's it's going to 
different places to gather its 

1360
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,080
food. 
Problem is there's still so 

1361
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,880
little food to gather. 
As it says, the army was already

1362
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:51,680
short of food and fodder just 
going through the pass. 

1363
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:53,280
And this is just the beginning, 
right? 

1364
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:54,880
So already the problems are 
beginning. 

1365
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:59,120
And again, I don't know how the 
split was with the 5050 split. 

1366
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,040
Did Aegon take 15,000 guys and 
15,000 went? 

1367
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,520
SI don't know, but it was 
probably pretty close to even. 

1368
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,120
He had Valerian with him, so 
maybe he gave them some more 

1369
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,240
soldiers. 
On the other hand, Tyrell's 

1370
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,600
going to go through the desert, 
so maybe he wants to have fewer 

1371
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:13,440
men. 
I don't know. 

1372
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,360
Either way, it wasn't smart. 
It didn't work out. 

1373
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,000
This wall of sheep carcasses is 
really wild, right? 

1374
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,040
Taunting them with wasted food. 
Like, look, we we are not 

1375
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:24,120
afraid. 
We're not going to run out of 

1376
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,040
food. 
You're not going to get food 

1377
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,920
locally because this is it. 
This is this is the local food 

1378
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:30,560
all dumped in front of you, 
rotting. 

1379
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:32,040
This is what you have available 
to you. 

1380
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,360
It's, it's, it's it's very 
ominous and very symbolic, and 

1381
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,800
it's quite a statement. 
They're like, look, we don't 

1382
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,720
need this. 
You're not going to find this. 

1383
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:42,920
This is what's waiting for you, 
you know. 

1384
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,400
A couple of things. 
One is that would be a very 

1385
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,120
difficult and disgusting barrier
to try to get through. 

1386
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:50,320
Right, and to set up you 
probably. 

1387
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,880
Would have preferred a bunch of 
rocks or something, right? 

1388
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:54,640
Like that's. 
Like think of the morale of the 

1389
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:57,000
soldiers that had to deal with 
that, and maybe even sickness 

1390
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:58,760
and disease that got spread from
it, I don't know. 

1391
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:03,120
But also, Nina points out, this 
kind of feeds into what I was 

1392
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,480
saying earlier. 
They couldn't have just done 

1393
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,400
that last night, right? 
That's not one day a sheep. 

1394
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:09,520
That's not one day A. 
Sheep. 

1395
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,800
Think what it would take to 
physically get all the sheep 

1396
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,960
there, to have them shorn and be
there long enough to rot. 

1397
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:18,680
They had to have seen this 
invasion coming. 

1398
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:20,880
They this is some preparation 
time they had. 

1399
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:22,920
Right, yeah. 
Instead of sending their army 

1400
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:24,840
there, they sent the wall of 
sheep. 

1401
01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:30,520
And this would be a lesson that 
Aegon's great, great, great, 

1402
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,920
great grandson, Deron the first,
the young dragon, learned very 

1403
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,520
well. 
He used a goat track to bypass 

1404
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,760
this sort of thing. 
Not just not necessarily walls 

1405
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:44,920
of dead sheep, but scouts and 
mountain passes and watchtowers.

1406
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:49,359
Which by the way, one of these 
watchtowers is probably the site

1407
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:52,200
of the Tower Joy because the 
Tower Joy is in the Princess 

1408
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:54,200
Pass. 
Now of course Tower Joy is just 

1409
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,520
a nickname Rhaegar gave to one 
particular watchtower. 

1410
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,640
It's it's wouldn't have any sort
of defining features at this 

1411
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,800
point if it even existed, but 
entirely possible. 

1412
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,880
I mean a watchtower is in a 
place is usually put put in a 

1413
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:08,319
place because of the terrain and
that wouldn't have changed after

1414
01:09:08,319 --> 01:09:10,560
a couple 100 years. 
Most likely it might have, but 

1415
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:12,359
probably not. 
So very high likelihood that the

1416
01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:16,000
tower was had been there a long 
time or one had been in its 

1417
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,439
place, if it had maybe you know,
fallen and been rebuilt or 

1418
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:20,399
something. 
Was that Goat Pass revealed by 

1419
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,359
Adornish Trader by chance? 
You know, it might have been, 

1420
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:26,359
but we, I don't think we know it
may have been, you know. 

1421
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:29,560
Information on 300 parallel, you
know. 

1422
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:31,680
Oh yes, you're right. 
Yes. 

1423
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:34,240
The Fe Altis I think was the 
name of that trader. 

1424
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:38,880
By the way, highly recommend the
book Gates of Fire the the movie

1425
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:42,359
300 based on the graphic novel 
300. 

1426
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,160
It was originally going to be 
based on the book Gates of Fire,

1427
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:50,680
which is way, way better. 
It's it's historical fiction 

1428
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:53,640
rather than, you know, a, a, A 
basically a comic book, which I 

1429
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:55,400
have nothing against comic 
books, but they don't portray 

1430
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:59,040
history very well. 
You know, history is better for 

1431
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,320
portraying history than than 
graphic art, I think. 

1432
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:02,400
So you can. 
Get there. 

1433
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,080
You can get there, yeah, like 
the two to get, like read them 

1434
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:06,240
both, you know, like they're 
both. 

1435
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:08,560
They're both very entertaining. 
But I think one is more, a lot 

1436
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,000
more accurate. 
We'll say so. 

1437
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:14,120
So that's really wild. 
I mean this whole sheep thing. 

1438
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:15,320
And. 
And you're right to say that 

1439
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,000
that's part of their strategy, 
strategy of denial. 

1440
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,240
Don't meet them in the field. 
Don't let the dragon destroy 

1441
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:21,880
your armies. 
Make it hard for them. 

1442
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:24,400
And they have the other way. 
Make it gross, make it nasty, 

1443
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,760
make it unpleasant, make it 
stink, make it hot. 

1444
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:30,480
Take away the water, Take away 
the food. 

1445
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,400
All the stuff in an army needs 
Now remember they they thought 

1446
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,480
that they had planned around 
this. 

1447
01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:39,480
Remember at the beginning of 
this episode we talked about the

1448
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:42,720
weather and how like, oh it'll 
be autumn heading into autumn. 

1449
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,080
Like it's going to be getting. 
Not only Will is it cooler now, 

1450
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,760
but it's going to get cooler 
during the campaign because 

1451
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:49,480
we're getting deeper and deeper 
into autumn and closer to 

1452
01:10:49,480 --> 01:10:52,600
winter. 
However, here's how that worked 

1453
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:56,080
out for the Tyrell host quote. 
The Dornish sun proved 

1454
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:59,560
unrelenting as Lord Tyrell 
marched toward Hell Hole. 

1455
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:04,800
In such heat men drink more, and
every water hole and Oasis in 

1456
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:07,000
the army's path had been 
poisoned. 

1457
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:10,760
Horses began to die more every 
day. 

1458
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:15,520
Followed by their riders, the 
proud Knights discarded their 

1459
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,560
banners, their Shields, their 
very armor. 

1460
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:24,320
Lord Tyrell lost 1/4 of his men 
and almost all his horses to the

1461
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:29,040
Dornish sands, and when at last 
he reached the Hell Hole, he 

1462
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:31,600
found it abandoned. 
I think this is a part of the 

1463
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:35,040
reason Doran is so popular in 
the fandom is this stuff like 

1464
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:39,000
this, where they're willing to 
ruin all their stuff to protect 

1465
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:43,240
their people. 
Every little bit of item of 

1466
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:47,760
food, water, all of it is just 
ammunition to save the humans. 

1467
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,880
I would say I agree with you. 
I think some people, maybe Sean 

1468
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,720
perhaps, would argue against 
that and say, well, did it 

1469
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:55,440
really protect their people in 
the long run? 

1470
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:58,920
Did they, did people die of 
starvation themselves? 

1471
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:02,080
Like, did they hurt themselves 
by doing this? 

1472
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,800
I don't know. 
But but I I do think some people

1473
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,120
probably would make that 
counterpoint that maybe that's 

1474
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,760
what they considered their 
honor, their noble, but actually

1475
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,000
people are just going to die 
from this. 

1476
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,280
Yeah. 
Maybe, but maybe, maybe we're 

1477
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:18,360
wrong. 
And maybe like no one died of 

1478
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:22,200
starvation, no one would like, 
no families livelihoods was 

1479
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,520
ruined by them doing this like 
no sheep. 

1480
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,800
Maybe. 
Ruined life. 

1481
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:30,280
The sheep with the with like 
Adding on to your idea was Sean 

1482
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,960
pointing out very accurately and
likely that they planned the 

1483
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:35,520
sheep thing for a while. 
How long have they been stashing

1484
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:37,720
food knowing this might have 
been coming, like they may have 

1485
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,360
been preparing for winter, a 
Dragon's winter rather than, you

1486
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:44,240
know, a different sort of 
preparation. 

1487
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:48,800
So yeah, they've like we've 
we've given the listeners today 

1488
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:53,400
many reasons to guess correctly.
I think that they knew it was 

1489
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:54,520
coming. 
You've pointed out there's 

1490
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:55,760
several details here that show 
that. 

1491
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,280
So this is this is an obvious 
way to prepare for if you're 

1492
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:01,840
going to go hide in the caves, 
put food, lots of food and water

1493
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:03,720
in the caves. 
You know, if you're gonna poison

1494
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:06,080
your wells, you better get a lot
of water out of there first 

1495
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,840
before that water is undrinkable
for also. 

1496
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:11,320
Years, Yeah. 
My other question is, maybe they

1497
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:14,360
poison the wells knowing exactly
what to do to neutralize it when

1498
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:15,800
they needed it to not be 
poisoned. 

1499
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,080
So it's not poisoned. 
When they come back, they know 

1500
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:22,840
that, oh, you put this chemical 
in it and it does that or that 

1501
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:24,760
they again knew that it would 
poison it for. 

1502
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:26,880
Yeah. 
One year they did it before and 

1503
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:28,840
it was poisoned for three years 
and so that's. 

1504
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:30,880
Yeah, there might be various 
things like that. 

1505
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:32,840
It's like when the. 
I think we should give them the 

1506
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:36,280
benefit of the doubt that they 
knew what they were doing. 

1507
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:38,320
It can be pretty bad, yeah. 
I mean, you can. 

1508
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:41,960
These, like in Marine, they cut 
down the olive Groves to provide

1509
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:44,440
to keep food away from Danny's 
army, knowing that it would be 

1510
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:47,280
30 years before those trees 
could be replaced and growing 

1511
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,360
olives again. 
Whereas in that case I think 

1512
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,960
that was a bad, I think that was
a bad choice. 

1513
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,240
That was, yeah, see, that's, 
yeah, that's different. 

1514
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:55,480
Yeah. 
So I don't give them the benefit

1515
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:57,400
of the doubt there I guess, cuz 
I do think. 

1516
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:02,280
That food is, Yeah, that's two 
generations ish before that. 

1517
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,200
Yeah, they need that. 
That's the rich slavers can get 

1518
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:08,960
food elsewhere. 
Yeah, but yeah, it's it is a 

1519
01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:10,120
different consideration. 
You're right. 

1520
01:14:10,480 --> 01:14:14,400
Some of this reminds me of our 
hardcore Houses episode when I I

1521
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:17,360
I, you know, my attempt to 
define hardcore is that when 

1522
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:19,960
things that would normally get 
in someone's way. 

1523
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,920
You know if someone's determined
to win, if you will, right. 

1524
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,120
Whatever their mission is that 
you're like, you're going to win

1525
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:28,880
this war against Aegon. 
That, you know, if you're if 

1526
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:32,320
you're, there's certain things 
that most people would be held 

1527
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:36,560
back by, like super cold weather
or hot weather or not eating 

1528
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,840
human flesh or, you know, 
something like that. 

1529
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:43,240
Or not wanting to sacrifice your
innocent population, not wanting

1530
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:47,960
to hamstring a whole generation 
by ruining all the crops for a 

1531
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:50,400
year or two or poisoning. 
Well, things like that. 

1532
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:53,440
That, you know, all this stuff 
might make darn darn hardcore 

1533
01:14:53,440 --> 01:14:55,160
and a lot of people might 
appreciate that. 

1534
01:14:55,240 --> 01:14:59,560
But there is this balance 
between peace and, you know, 

1535
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:01,280
prestige or legacy or 
independence. 

1536
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:03,360
Oregon, whatever it is Doran 
thinks they're fighting for. 

1537
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:04,840
And I think they went too far 
with it. 

1538
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,840
It is a even if they did plan 
ahead. 

1539
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:11,640
And so they might have had some 
food reserves and stash extra 

1540
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:13,680
water, but how much could it 
have been? 

1541
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:16,680
There's still no way that 
they're not hamstringing the 

1542
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,080
next years, yeah. 
Which which they would rather 

1543
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:22,640
they feel like that's the better
sacrifice than sacrificing 

1544
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:25,640
humans or and or independence. 
Same thing, you know. 

1545
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:28,840
I also want to point out what 
did it take for the invading 

1546
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:30,720
army to realize that the well 
was poisoned. 

1547
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:32,920
Oh yeah, so many. 
People with all these 

1548
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:35,280
desperately thirsty people and 
they start drinking the water. 

1549
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:38,360
Like do they do? 
They drink it and kill over in 

1550
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:40,520
30 seconds and it warns everyone
else not to do it? 

1551
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,880
Or does it take a day or two to 
get diarrhea? 

1552
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,560
And slowly, four days after you 
left the well, people are 

1553
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,080
dropping dead. 
Are they boiling the water and 

1554
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:50,760
now you're? 
Still desperately thirsty and 

1555
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,440
you do it again. 
Like, how many times did a bunch

1556
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:55,560
of you have to die or get just 
terribly? 

1557
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:57,520
I'll before they realize the 
whales are poisoned. 

1558
01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:58,960
Like, how could they even know 
it, you know? 

1559
01:15:58,960 --> 01:15:59,440
Well, what? 
Yeah. 

1560
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:01,080
What kind of poison are we 
talking about here? 

1561
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,520
Are they just fouled or is it 
like, like you say, is it 

1562
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:05,600
something that you could boil 
out or is it or not? 

1563
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:06,440
You know, I don't know. 
Yeah. 

1564
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:09,760
It's did they throw a dead sheep
carcass down in there to put 

1565
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,400
rotting bacteria and and and so 
they could see it immediately, 

1566
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,400
know not to drink it or was it a
hidden poison or was it a deadly

1567
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:17,360
poison? 
Probably. 

1568
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:19,640
Probably all of the above. 
You know, different different 

1569
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:21,040
wells, different. 
Like they're not going to have 

1570
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:24,400
some like standard supply of, 
well, poison that just everyone 

1571
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,720
uses. 
Yeah, just each town did 

1572
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:28,600
whatever they could to poison 
their local wells. 

1573
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:30,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Like Shea said, some of the 

1574
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,360
smarter ones or advanced ones 
might have had a way to poison 

1575
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:38,360
it and then an antidote for it. 
But my other thought here is 

1576
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:42,200
just again, how damaging it 
would be to morale for the 

1577
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,000
horses to be dying. 
You got to understand, a horse, 

1578
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:49,000
I mean, maybe a bunch of like 
privileged noble Lords don't 

1579
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:51,960
really care about their horses, 
but I feel like a lot of them 

1580
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:53,880
would. 
I feel like a horse has got to 

1581
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:56,520
be cared for. 
You know, it's it's as much as 

1582
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:58,120
like a pet. 
Like think how much food. 

1583
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,680
It's an investment almost any 
angle you look at it. 

1584
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:03,160
For your horse to die, you need 
it to ride to carry your 

1585
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:04,760
equipment. 
You've probably been with it as 

1586
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,000
a unit for force of your life. 
You've given it a lot of food 

1587
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:10,960
and time and have a bond with 
it, you know like and for the 

1588
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,760
for it to die would be 
devastating on so many levels. 

1589
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,360
And it's happening on a mass 
scale. 

1590
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:17,560
I don't know, it's just makes me
sick to my stomach thinking 

1591
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:18,960
about this whole scenario 
unfolding. 

1592
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:22,760
Even someone like Sandor 
Clegane, like a a pretty mean, 

1593
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:26,680
unsympathetic, you know guy, you
know, I mean he's sympathetic in

1594
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:28,960
terms of the fandom, but like he
doesn't have a lot of sympathy 

1595
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:31,280
for others is what I mean, 
doesn't have a lot of 

1596
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:32,400
attachments. 
He loves it. 

1597
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:34,520
He loves his horse, stranger. 
You know, he may not. 

1598
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:36,920
He wouldn't say it, but he 
really valued that horse. 

1599
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:38,040
That's that. 
Maybe he that's what he would 

1600
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:39,000
say, like I got to get that 
horse back. 

1601
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:42,680
He went back into the riot to 
get that horse, you know, and 

1602
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:46,440
Dunk was brought to tears losing
his horse and he this is just a 

1603
01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:47,240
memory of his. 
We don't. 

1604
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:49,720
See it in Dorn, right in. 
Dorn and other, and he kind of 

1605
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:51,800
remembers some of the Dornish 
men were were sort of like 

1606
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,120
confused or even laughing at him
for losing his horse, but. 

1607
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,160
You can't afford to waste tears 
in Dorn. 

1608
01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:58,360
You can't afford to waste water 
on crying. 

1609
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:04,040
Yeah, so without lifting a 
finger, Dorn itself, I mean you 

1610
01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:06,200
could say they lift a finger 
lifting dead sheep carcasses 

1611
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:11,360
without fighting anyone, without
meeting this Tyrell army, some 

1612
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:15,680
15 ish thousand men marched to 
the hell halt and a quarter of 

1613
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:17,360
them died and who knows how many
horses. 

1614
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:20,840
Like that's like 4000 men dying 
in on this March. 

1615
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,120
Like that's there's no way they 
saw that coming. 

1616
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:24,600
Maybe they could not. 
They would not have just 

1617
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:26,480
advanced into that if they knew 
it was going to be that bad. 

1618
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:29,880
If you've seen the movie Kingdom
of Heaven, there's a scene kind 

1619
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:32,360
of like this where a crusader 
army is just heading out into 

1620
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,520
the desert to chase Saladin and 
Orlando. 

1621
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:37,640
Bloom's character is, and and 
several people he's with are 

1622
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:40,720
just like you guys. 
This is so dumb. 

1623
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:46,200
Don't go chasing a experienced 
desert general in the desert. 

1624
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,400
Like, that's insanity. 
And one of the guys is like, 

1625
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:51,320
who's a knight who's always 
like, well, yeah, it doesn't 

1626
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:54,960
seem the brightest idea, but I'm
not going to disobey the king, 

1627
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:56,680
you know, like of course I'm 
going to follow the king into 

1628
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:58,320
battle. 
Like what other choices there, 

1629
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:01,800
like that's it would be worse to
to to disobey the king. 

1630
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,280
Like somehow this, this 
disloyalty would be worse than 

1631
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:09,840
not walking into certain death, 
you know like wait a minute, 

1632
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:12,640
what is this mindset? 
But that's that's how it is. 

1633
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:14,400
Like that's what really 
happened. 

1634
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:16,160
I mean they were portraying 
something that that really 

1635
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,640
happened basically in in real 
history. 

1636
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,680
These guys were overconfident. 
They they're proud. 

1637
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:25,960
They think God is with them, you
know, which I don't know how 

1638
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,720
much that part of of things was 
in play here. 

1639
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:32,480
The whole faith aspect for the 
Westerosi, they might have been 

1640
01:19:32,480 --> 01:19:35,000
praying to the Seven gods, but 
they would know that this isn't 

1641
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,040
a religious opponent. 
They know that their enemies are

1642
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:40,920
also worshipping the same gods. 
So it's not like they can't 

1643
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,640
necessarily expect the Seven to 
be on their side over the 

1644
01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,240
Dornish. 
Some of them probably did, but 

1645
01:19:47,440 --> 01:19:50,520
it's not as clear cut as there's
two very different religions at 

1646
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:51,840
work here. 
Anyway. 

1647
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,160
Saladin did the same thing. 
He used the desert to great 

1648
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:58,360
advantage, didn't fight, didn't 
let them fight head on head 

1649
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,680
battles, just let them starve 
and thirst to death and. 

1650
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,600
That's much easier. 
So the green blood seizing of 

1651
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:06,800
the green blood is really 
important. 

1652
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:07,720
That's the river. 
Of course. 

1653
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:12,400
By having Rainey caused great 
devastation there, maybe dare on

1654
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:15,880
the young dragon took that 
lesson amongst many of the 

1655
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:18,760
things that didn't go well 
during this initial Targaryen 

1656
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,400
invasion. 
When he did his, you know 150 

1657
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:26,120
years later, he somewhat learned
from his ancestors mistakes. 

1658
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:28,840
Some of them maybe he didn't 
learn, but he he did learn some 

1659
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:32,080
of these other things and he had
a lot more preparation for the 

1660
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:33,760
heat and the dehydration in the 
water. 

1661
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:36,640
It was still a problem, but it 
was not something that just 

1662
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,240
broke them. 
He was prepared for it now, and 

1663
01:20:39,240 --> 01:20:41,960
there's details missing from 
Daron's campaign that we will 

1664
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:45,040
eventually, hopefully get in 
Fire and blood too, AKA blood 

1665
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:47,600
and fire, and we'll return to 
that topic then. 

1666
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,240
But some of those details aren't
given. 

1667
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:54,880
It's just implied strongly that 
though the sun was nasty, they 

1668
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:57,960
didn't suffer nearly as much as 
this army was due to better 

1669
01:20:57,960 --> 01:20:59,920
preparations. 
That's how it was going for the 

1670
01:20:59,920 --> 01:21:01,320
Tyrell army. 
Very badly. 

1671
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,320
What about the new Lord of 
Storm's End, Oris Baratheon? 

1672
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:06,200
How is it going in the Bone Way?
Quote. 

1673
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:08,720
Oris Baratheon's attack fared 
little better. 

1674
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,240
His horses struggled on the 
Stony slopes of the narrow, 

1675
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:17,040
twisting passes, but many balked
completely when they reached the

1676
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:21,360
steepest section of the road. 
Where the Dornish had chiseled 

1677
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:25,840
steps into the mountains, 
boulders rained down on the Hans

1678
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,640
Knights from above, the work of 
defenders. 

1679
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:32,320
The Stormlanders never saw. 
Where the Bone Way crossed the 

1680
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:36,600
river, Will Dornish Archers 
suddenly appeared as the column 

1681
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:40,480
was making its way across a 
bridge and arrows rained down by

1682
01:21:40,480 --> 01:21:43,760
the thousands. 
When Lord Oris ordered his men 

1683
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:47,720
to fall back, a massive rock 
fall cut off their retreat. 

1684
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:50,480
With no way forward and no way 
back. 

1685
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:54,080
The Storm Landers were butchered
like hogs in a pen. 

1686
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:58,560
Oris Baratheon himself was 
spared, along with a dozen other

1687
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:02,120
Lords thought worth the ransom, 
but but they found themselves 

1688
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:07,000
captives of will of Will, the 
savage mountain Lord called 

1689
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:11,040
Widow Lover. 
Fared little better, it says. 

1690
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:14,560
That's an understatement. 
They all they were, quote, 

1691
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:19,200
butchered like hogs and a pen. 
Yeah, they fared about as bad as

1692
01:22:19,200 --> 01:22:21,360
it could. 
That's, yeah, that's. 

1693
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:23,320
It seems like they fared much 
worse. 

1694
01:22:23,440 --> 01:22:26,000
I'm almost confused by that 
phrasing that there must be 

1695
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,080
something more to this or 
something like like I legit 

1696
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:31,680
wonder if there was a portion of
the army that didn't get trapped

1697
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:33,640
between the boulder fall or 
whatever because. 

1698
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:36,480
I don't know. 
Yeah, it's such a Yeah, it's 

1699
01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:39,880
such an understatement. 
I mean technically more men died

1700
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,480
on the way to Hellhole because 
there was just so many more of 

1701
01:22:42,480 --> 01:22:44,680
them. 
So maybe that's the point like 

1702
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:47,880
up to like 4000 men died on that
March and this was all of them 

1703
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:49,760
that died and this one. 
But there's only 1000 of them. 

1704
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:52,880
So like arguably that's I mean 
more loss of light. 

1705
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:54,960
I don't know. 
But, but either way, it's it is.

1706
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:58,680
It's if you're a Targaryen or 
Baratheon fan, that's about as 

1707
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:00,320
bad as it gets. 
If you're a darnish fan, you're 

1708
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:02,120
like, yeah, get them. 
That was great. 

1709
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:04,880
What a win. 
You know, terrain being used to 

1710
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:06,920
huge advantage when done 
properly. 

1711
01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:08,920
Picture. 
I mean, just picture it, it says

1712
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:10,800
you're crossing a bridge over a 
river. 

1713
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,360
This isn't some large stone 
bridge, surely it might even be 

1714
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:16,000
like a rope bridge, but it might
be a wooden bridge or something.

1715
01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:19,920
Anyway, so obviously there's 
only so many people that can 

1716
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,360
cross at once. 
You don't have, like, masses of 

1717
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:23,800
men all crossing the bridge at 
once. 

1718
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:27,000
At least you shouldn't. 
Make it a make it a big stone 

1719
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:27,920
bridge. 
Still. 

1720
01:23:27,920 --> 01:23:29,720
How many people were getting 
across at a time? 

1721
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:32,520
Still, what do you do when the 
rain arrows start raining down, 

1722
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,360
you know? 
Yeah, and it seems as if from 

1723
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:36,080
nowhere these arrows start 
raining down. 

1724
01:23:36,080 --> 01:23:41,320
It would be a panic maybe, but 
you know at worst, but at best 

1725
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:44,800
people are hurrying quickly and 
unable to get off quick enough 

1726
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:47,720
to to get cover. 
So some people may have some 

1727
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:49,720
Shields and they're doing what 
they can. 

1728
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:51,920
But then you're getting close to
let's say, let's say you're one 

1729
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:54,280
of the men in that press and you
manage to escape. 

1730
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,480
You get off the bridge and 
you're retreating back away from

1731
01:23:57,480 --> 01:24:00,920
the bridge and then an avalanche
comes at you, the direction 

1732
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:04,480
you're fleeing in a full blown 
rock avalanche and the arrows 

1733
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:08,480
are still flying. 
Then you look around you and you

1734
01:24:08,480 --> 01:24:11,600
realize there is no way out. 
You are completely trapped. 

1735
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:17,480
You've got a gorge and a active 
rock fall, and then the the 

1736
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:20,320
noose is tightening because the 
soldiers that have you 

1737
01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:26,040
surrounded are getting closer as
you are suffering more and as 

1738
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,080
the chaos increases and as the 
officers are trying to get some 

1739
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:33,040
semblance of, like forming up, 
get your Shields up this and 

1740
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:34,120
that. 
But people are just too 

1741
01:24:34,120 --> 01:24:35,720
panicked. 
They're probably not listening 

1742
01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:37,440
now. 
Instead of just arrows, you've 

1743
01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:40,000
got Spears and javelins because 
it's closer. 

1744
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:42,640
By the time people are in hand 
to hand fighting, there's 

1745
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:47,360
probably barely any resistance. 
I doubt the Will Lord Will lost 

1746
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:51,360
many of his warriors that day. 
Probably very few, maybe none. 

1747
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:54,040
It's quite possibly they had 
zero casualties, something like 

1748
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:55,600
that. 
It was just such an effective 

1749
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:57,200
ambush. 
It's it's actually, I would 

1750
01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:01,840
rarely consider such a 
overwhelming success, but this 

1751
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,600
is possible. 
So and it's in part partly 

1752
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:09,440
because it's a small army only 
1000 men and yeah that made it 

1753
01:25:09,440 --> 01:25:11,480
easier to encircle them in one 
hand they didn't need as many 

1754
01:25:11,480 --> 01:25:13,720
supplies and and something maybe
that that they're being smart 

1755
01:25:13,720 --> 01:25:15,560
but if they had brought a lot of
men that would have been used 

1756
01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:17,920
against them and they brought a 
fewer men that was used against 

1757
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,600
them. 
It just just goes to show how 

1758
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:23,040
kind of impossible the whole 
thing was given their given 

1759
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:25,240
their strategy maybe if they had
done it differently. 

1760
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:29,080
But yeah, so they, the Storm 
men, suffered huge losses during

1761
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,800
that portion of the conquest. 
And maybe this was another 

1762
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,640
factor as to why his portion of 
the army was so small. 

1763
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:37,960
Whatever reasons there were, 
though, it clearly didn't work 

1764
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:39,320
out. 
The Will of Will is called the 

1765
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,800
Widow Lover in that quote and 
elsewhere, and he is named, 

1766
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:44,320
quote, a Savage Mountain Lord as
well. 

1767
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:46,520
There. 
The Mountain Lord part speaks 

1768
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:48,440
for itself. 
He is literally a Lord of a 

1769
01:25:48,440 --> 01:25:50,480
castle in the mountains. 
His family has known the area 

1770
01:25:50,480 --> 01:25:53,960
for countless generations. 
He's got to know all these 

1771
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:57,440
routes, hidden passes, tunnels, 
just everything. 

1772
01:25:57,440 --> 01:25:59,920
I mean, they've been there so 
long, they know all the stuff, 

1773
01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:02,840
all the routes. 
They even maybe made their own 

1774
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:04,400
tunnels in a few spots here and 
there. 

1775
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:07,920
And that's going to matter, 
because Aegon will be very 

1776
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:12,600
unhappy with the Will of Will, 
and for this and other reasons, 

1777
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:17,280
but it's hard to punish a savage
mountain Lord who has tunnels he

1778
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:19,560
can hide in. 
And yes, the Will of Will Will. 

1779
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:21,400
He's not going to truly get a 
comeuppance. 

1780
01:26:21,400 --> 01:26:23,840
Maybe his his descendants. 
However, that's another matter. 

1781
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:26,440
So we'll be certainly coming 
back to this character. 

1782
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:31,560
This reminds me we we made a lot
of comparisons to real world and

1783
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:33,560
other fantasy. 
It's time for one of those. 

1784
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:36,840
Here we got the Fremen and Dune.
This is kind of how I picture 

1785
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:39,000
the will of Will there. 
These guys are a little more 

1786
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:41,560
bloodthirsty. 
I think the Fremen are a little 

1787
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:46,360
more composed and a little more 
disciplined and other things. 

1788
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:52,400
But the the sudden attacks, the 
making the land their own, like 

1789
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:55,880
being one, being part of it, 
knowing it extremely well, 

1790
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,000
adapting, making it really harsh
for invaders, concealing their 

1791
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:03,280
numbers really well, that's a 
thing in Dune the the Harkonnens

1792
01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:06,080
dramatically underestimate How 
many Fremen there are you. 

1793
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:08,600
Can say being underestimated in 
the 1st place. 

1794
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,160
I think that's another thing 
that Aegon did well earlier, 

1795
01:27:11,560 --> 01:27:14,920
that he and his forces are doing
poorly now is gathering 

1796
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:18,720
intelligence, just scouting out 
and prepping for what's to come.

1797
01:27:18,840 --> 01:27:21,160
They just went in too quick, too
unprepared. 

1798
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:22,920
You can't scout caves. 
You can. 

1799
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:24,480
Maybe you. 
You may not even know The Cave 

1800
01:27:24,480 --> 01:27:25,800
is there, let alone what's in 
it. 

1801
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,840
You know it's hard, like a lot 
of their natural advantages were

1802
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:30,480
neutralized, like the Dragons 
can't. 

1803
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:34,000
At best a dragon might see them 
going into The Cave and. 

1804
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:37,600
But how big The Cave is, how 
deep it goes, Yeah, you're not 

1805
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:40,680
scouting that well, we saw the 
entrance, that's about all we 

1806
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:44,040
know. 
So and then Nina makes another 

1807
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:45,880
comparison here about the 
struggle of the horses in the 

1808
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:48,480
Arrow Mountain passes. 
Think of Stannis's Knights 

1809
01:27:48,480 --> 01:27:50,560
struggling in the snow on the 
March to Winterfell. 

1810
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:54,200
Just a completely opposite type 
of weather condition, but a very

1811
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:58,160
similar result in terms of how 
the horses struggle and what 

1812
01:27:58,160 --> 01:27:59,760
ends up happening to them. 
Some of them end up dying. 

1813
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:01,480
Now Ori's had a battle like 
this, remember? 

1814
01:28:01,480 --> 01:28:05,320
He had the first conflict when 
he marched his army towards 

1815
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:10,080
Storm's End, before the final 
climactic engagement with King 

1816
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:12,880
Argyllac was an ambush at the 
wind water. 

1817
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,240
And they lost there, remember? 
They got, they weren't ready for

1818
01:28:15,240 --> 01:28:16,200
it. 
They were kind of caught off 

1819
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:17,960
guard. 
Looks like maybe ours isn't 

1820
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:21,000
great at detecting ambushes. 
This is. 

1821
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:24,120
You know, you got ambushed 
there, you got ambushed here. 

1822
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:28,920
But hey, when you're high Lord, 
you have reasonable expectation 

1823
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:29,880
that they're not going to kill 
you. 

1824
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:32,120
And he was right. 
They kept took him captive. 

1825
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:34,680
Maybe it was a little bit of 
that inborn arrogance. 

1826
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:36,800
There's like, well, it's the 
worst won't happen to me. 

1827
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:38,640
It might'll happen to everybody 
else. 

1828
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:40,360
Maybe. 
But honestly, of course, I don't

1829
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:42,600
think he expected any of this to
happen. 

1830
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:44,080
I think he just expected to. 
Win it. 

1831
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:46,600
It took a little luck too to not
be killed. 

1832
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:50,120
Like even if you are this 
wealthy highborn person that's 

1833
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:53,200
more valuable to be ransomed or 
whatever, he still just might 

1834
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:56,440
accidentally get shot or an 
arrow or just some over Zealous 

1835
01:28:56,440 --> 01:28:59,040
warrior just keeps swinging his 
sword and isn't thinking about 

1836
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:00,680
ransoms. 
He just wants to kill the bad 

1837
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:02,080
guy. 
There's all kinds of things that

1838
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,320
have to work out just right to 
to be right instead of killed in

1839
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:06,280
battle. 
You're totally right. 

1840
01:29:06,280 --> 01:29:09,280
There's been plenty of cases 
where someone in Ori's position 

1841
01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:10,800
was killed in battle. 
And you're right. 

1842
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:12,680
And then then they they might 
have regretted it because, like,

1843
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:14,160
damn, that would have been a big
ransom. 

1844
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:15,960
But heat? 
Heat of battles. 

1845
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:20,000
Also a hell of a drug. 
So another thing of course Ori's

1846
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:24,680
had with him in the Storm lands 
was Maracies, who he does not 

1847
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:28,120
have rainy some Maracies nowhere
near at this point. 

1848
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:30,640
They're all the way over near 
the Plankey Town, nowhere near 

1849
01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:32,880
the Bone Way. 
So there's the Tyrell host, the 

1850
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,000
Baratheon host which is no more,
and King Agons Host. 

1851
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:39,360
Let's see how he was doing while
one was struggling and the other

1852
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:41,480
was gone. 
Quote King Aegon himself had 

1853
01:29:41,480 --> 01:29:43,320
more success. 
Sorry I got a break at the 

1854
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:45,360
quote. 
Not hard to do right. 

1855
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,960
Yeah, the bar was. 
Low the bar was low. 

1856
01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:54,760
Sorry. 
OK King Aegon himself had more 

1857
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:57,720
success marching eastward 
through the foothills where run 

1858
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,440
off from the heights provided 
water and game was plentiful in 

1859
01:30:00,440 --> 01:30:02,640
the valleys. 
He took the castle sky reach by 

1860
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:05,480
storm 1 yarn wood after re 
siege. 

1861
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:08,640
The Lord of the Tour had 
recently died and his steward 

1862
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:11,480
surrendered without a fight. 
So that's three castles, Fowler,

1863
01:30:11,480 --> 01:30:16,320
Ironwood, and Jordain, all kind 
of heading east toward Sunspear.

1864
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:17,800
You kind of crossed through all 
those. 

1865
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:20,720
Meanwhile, though, the Tyrell 
host has been severely weakened 

1866
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:22,760
and hasn't accomplished 
anything, and Oris's army is 

1867
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:24,720
gone. 
He would have expected to meet 

1868
01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:28,160
Oris's army because Aegon goes 
through the Western pass and 

1869
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:31,600
goes east, so he would have 
expected Oris to would have come

1870
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:33,840
along there and linked up at 
some point. 

1871
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:35,440
But of course that never 
happened. 

1872
01:30:35,440 --> 01:30:37,320
He would have been left 
wondering what happened to Oris.

1873
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:41,640
Where's Oris? 
And there would be maybe no word

1874
01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:42,280
ever. 
They just. 

1875
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:45,480
I'm kind of thinking maybe the 
Wills would have maybe sent some

1876
01:30:45,480 --> 01:30:48,360
sent ahead or two, but they 
might have just preferred to do 

1877
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:52,040
nothing and let them Stew and 
wonder, like where's our 

1878
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:56,560
Stormlander army? 
And as days pass as Oris as 

1879
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:59,960
there's no True Deadly Silence. 
True, Deathly Silence there. 

1880
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:03,400
Maybe like the wonder would be 
greater. 

1881
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:05,640
And maybe some people in the 
army would be like, yeah, didn't

1882
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:08,440
we have Stormlander allies? 
Weren't we gonna, wasn't that 

1883
01:31:08,440 --> 01:31:09,960
didn't I hear something about 
that? 

1884
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:12,160
And then they just would never 
appear and be like, well, you 

1885
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:13,640
know, it's an it's it's a 
campaign. 

1886
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:14,800
Things change. 
Plans change. 

1887
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:17,760
But it would be kind of ominous.
It'd be like, what happened to 

1888
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:20,840
the Stormlanders? 
Where are they and and is that 

1889
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:23,800
going to happen to us? 
It would be much smarter, I 

1890
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:26,680
think, to not let them know at 
all because they're more likely 

1891
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,240
to make mistakes without the 
information, right? 

1892
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,560
They're not sure how much water 
they should be preserving for 

1893
01:31:32,560 --> 01:31:34,040
this army that might come 
needing it. 

1894
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,720
They're not sure how long they 
should wait before moving out. 

1895
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:40,280
Things like this the the the the
longer they wait the the the 

1896
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:43,280
more likely they are to make bad
decisions based on not knowing 

1897
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:45,840
what they need to do next and 
the worst morale gets. 

1898
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:49,320
Yes, that's a very good point 
and and there would might be 

1899
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,840
attempts to keep the armies from
contacting each other. 

1900
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:56,480
That might be a specific plan of
the Dornish is to use some of 

1901
01:31:56,480 --> 01:32:00,480
their guerrilla attacks on 
messengers like Ravens aren't 

1902
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:03,440
very useful in a situation like 
this 'cause you can't send 

1903
01:32:03,440 --> 01:32:06,160
Ravens to an army in the field. 
Now, when the army gets to 

1904
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:09,600
Helholt, it could maybe send a 
Raven all the back to King's 

1905
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:13,640
Landing or something like that. 
And but that's still very slow, 

1906
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:15,320
even slower than normal 
communication. 

1907
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:17,600
And if they're going to send 
horse couriers back and forth, 

1908
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:20,200
well, for one thing, that's 
particularly difficult when 

1909
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:22,240
you're in the desert like that. 
You've gone all the way through 

1910
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:23,560
the deep desert. 
I don't know if you can send a 

1911
01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:25,480
lot of messages back and forth, 
especially because you don't 

1912
01:32:25,480 --> 01:32:26,640
necessarily know where to send 
them. 

1913
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:28,600
You don't know where a gun's 
army necessarily is. 

1914
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,440
You know, it's somewhere north 
of you heading east. 

1915
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:35,640
And if I'm the Dornish, I'm 
doing everything I can to stop 

1916
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:36,880
those messages going back and 
forth. 

1917
01:32:37,040 --> 01:32:39,840
So like you say, Sean, the best 
play might be to just let them 

1918
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:42,720
Stew on it. 
And it's tempting to rub it in 

1919
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:44,880
their faces, 'cause they want 
to. 

1920
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:48,160
It's part of their psychological
warfare is to to lower morale. 

1921
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:50,880
But this, this, this restraint 
might actually have a greater 

1922
01:32:50,880 --> 01:32:52,280
effect. 
I like, I like that thought, as 

1923
01:32:52,280 --> 01:32:54,960
dark as it is. 
So Aegon probably doesn't know. 

1924
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,040
He doesn't know about how bad 
it's going in for the Tyrell 

1925
01:32:58,040 --> 01:32:59,960
army. 
He doesn't know about the the 

1926
01:32:59,960 --> 01:33:04,480
Wipeout of the Stormlander army.
So this applies to the lower 

1927
01:33:04,480 --> 01:33:06,240
level guys to this. 
This like what happened to the 

1928
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:09,120
Stormlander army is going to 
apply to the Knights and Lords, 

1929
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:12,880
but the lower levels troops 
also, Everything we talked about

1930
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:17,080
in the Prince's Pass with the 
the sheep and the food and the 

1931
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:20,280
anxiety, now it's it's getting 
worse. 

1932
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:23,560
It's still getting worse despite
a few victories, because they're

1933
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:26,160
they're starting to think like, 
you tell yourself you're 

1934
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:28,400
winning, right? 
You're you're taking all these 

1935
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:29,840
castles. 
You've taken three of the 

1936
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:32,440
biggest, most famous Dornish 
castles with basically without a

1937
01:33:32,440 --> 01:33:34,080
fight. 
At the first one, you're like, 

1938
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:36,160
yeah, the second one you're 
like, all right, but by the 

1939
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:39,920
third one you're like, 
something's not right about 

1940
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:41,160
this. 
You know? 

1941
01:33:41,440 --> 01:33:42,880
They're not just cowardly, are 
there? 

1942
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:46,280
This is, this is some plan, and 
I don't know what it is. 

1943
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:49,360
And I'm starting to get scared 
of what it might mean given all 

1944
01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:51,520
these other ominous signs here 
and there. 

1945
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:54,160
And it's like they're not 
actually afraid, are they? 

1946
01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:56,440
Cause like you don't do the 
sheep wall if you're afraid. 

1947
01:33:56,440 --> 01:33:58,640
You don't do night attacks if 
you're afraid. 

1948
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:01,520
Like the the whole narrative, 
they're afraid of us is going to

1949
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:03,520
be harder and harder to sell to 
the troops. 

1950
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:07,200
Or even if if you do still think
they're afraid that that's a 

1951
01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:11,320
coward's tactic to to to ambush 
us at night and to block the 

1952
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:13,120
path with sheep, all this other 
stuff. 

1953
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:16,600
But at some point, when you're 
dying of thirst and your horse 

1954
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:20,200
is dead and 1/3 of your army is 
dead, and like, OK, now we're 

1955
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:23,760
afraid, I hope we don't have to 
meet them in the field, right? 

1956
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:25,520
Yeah, that was your whole idea 
in the beginning. 

1957
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:26,560
They're scared to meet us in the
field. 

1958
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:28,360
Well, at this point they're 
probably scared to meet them in 

1959
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:30,120
the field. 
Yeah, you get to that point 

1960
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:31,720
where like actually, I just want
to go home. 

1961
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:35,520
Thank you. 
Also, does it kind of seem like 

1962
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:37,480
Aegon gave himself the easiest 
job? 

1963
01:34:37,480 --> 01:34:40,280
Like he didn't go through the 
bone way, That's the hard one. 

1964
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:42,520
And then he didn't have to go 
through the deep desert. 

1965
01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:44,920
He gets to go through the, like 
the lush part of Dorn. 

1966
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:48,360
So it's like, yeah, well, that's
what you get to do when you're 

1967
01:34:48,360 --> 01:34:50,160
the king. 
Not that Valerian would have 

1968
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:51,880
been much help in the desert 
anyway. 

1969
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:55,280
And or probably not all that 
helpful in the mountains. 

1970
01:34:55,280 --> 01:34:58,320
It's too large, you know that. 
The smaller dragon might have 

1971
01:34:58,320 --> 01:35:01,480
actually been better, you know? 
Hindsight is 2020 like the way 

1972
01:35:01,480 --> 01:35:04,240
it turned out It? 
Sure it sure seems like that, 

1973
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:07,960
but I wonder if he had split the
forces differently, if he had 

1974
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:10,120
stayed with the troops going 
through the past. 

1975
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:13,560
Maybe the dragon could have 
blown flyer in an outskirts or 

1976
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:17,040
or seen you know the the just 
the dragon and air could have 

1977
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:19,560
collected more intelligence or 
something. 

1978
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:22,040
It might have made that battle 
go differently and whatever 

1979
01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:25,240
forces did what he did might 
have been more vulnerable. 

1980
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:27,840
I'm not sure how true that is, 
but you got to at least take 

1981
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:30,480
that into account that it's 
possible that we're being 

1982
01:35:30,480 --> 01:35:31,960
results oriented here. 
I agree. 

1983
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:35,480
Yeah. 
And it's entirely possible as 

1984
01:35:35,480 --> 01:35:37,880
well that it's just a strategy 
thing. 

1985
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:41,080
Like if you'd used Valerian 
differently, it might have, you 

1986
01:35:41,080 --> 01:35:42,240
know, different things might 
have happened. 

1987
01:35:42,240 --> 01:35:45,360
But he used him. 
He kind of waited for an army, I

1988
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:47,440
guess. 
And then none. 

1989
01:35:47,440 --> 01:35:50,280
One never came. 
So there was, he just wasn't 

1990
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:51,680
deployed. 
Like, you don't really hear 

1991
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:54,880
about Valerian doing anything 
during any of this 'cause they, 

1992
01:35:54,880 --> 01:35:57,680
the Dornish, correctly give 
Valerian nothing to do. 

1993
01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:00,040
They're like, well, if you want 
to burn a castle or two, you can

1994
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:01,640
do that. 
We can't stop you from that. 

1995
01:36:01,640 --> 01:36:04,840
But you're not going to win the 
war by melting castles, you 

1996
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:06,840
know? 
Yes, this is time when Valerian 

1997
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:08,880
might have been most useful as a
messenger. 

1998
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:12,360
Yeah, it's like it may be kind 
of unthinkable to use Valerian 

1999
01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:17,400
as a messenger, but that might 
have been the smarter play. 

2000
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:19,960
It's like, oh, my dragon is no 
messenger. 

2001
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:23,560
Well, maybe you should 
reconsider your your hoity toity

2002
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:25,920
thoughts on this Aegon. 
Remember too if we go back to 

2003
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:30,960
Daron the first the the young 
dragon, they were like, can you 

2004
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:35,440
take darn without Dragons. 
As I'm showing here, there's the

2005
01:36:35,440 --> 01:36:37,760
Dragons weren't actually that 
big a deal. 

2006
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:39,160
I mean, they did a lot of 
devastation. 

2007
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:42,800
They were a big deal, but they 
didn't really move the needle 

2008
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:46,000
towards winning the war. 
It it was other factors. 

2009
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:48,640
And of course it was they didn't
ever really win the war. 

2010
01:36:48,640 --> 01:36:50,680
They temporarily declared 
victory. 

2011
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:55,080
Both of these stories, both 
Daron and Egon said, hey, I 

2012
01:36:55,080 --> 01:36:58,280
guess I win. 
And then they were proven wrong 

2013
01:36:58,480 --> 01:37:01,120
by what came next. 
But he did. 

2014
01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:04,560
Daron did do some things 
smarter, like he showed that 

2015
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:09,760
navies might maybe are even 
better than Dragons, which goes 

2016
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:11,840
to show that Aegon should have 
done both. 

2017
01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:18,040
Nina raises an idea here that 
isn't in the book, but could 

2018
01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:19,560
have been. 
It may be something that was 

2019
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:20,920
discussed but didn't make the 
history books. 

2020
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:22,760
The kind of thing that you would
expect would have been talked 

2021
01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:26,840
about would have been maybe 
Aegon considering granting 

2022
01:37:27,120 --> 01:37:29,320
primacy over Dorne to someone 
else. 

2023
01:37:29,440 --> 01:37:31,600
Like making a deal with the Iron
Woods, right? 

2024
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:35,200
The Iron Woods have always 
thought, even now as far as we 

2025
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:38,000
know, that they are superior to 
the Martels, that they deserve 

2026
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:42,240
to be the top spot in Doran. 
So with that in mind, and that's

2027
01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,880
a well known thing, I mean, 
after all, the Iron Woods did 

2028
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:48,560
split with the Martels during 
the Black Fires rebellions, 

2029
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:49,600
right? 
They were like, well, maybe this

2030
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:52,240
is our chance to to to jump over
the Martels. 

2031
01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:58,120
Was that a consideration here 
against that argument is the 

2032
01:37:58,120 --> 01:38:01,600
fact that Aegon doesn't work 
like that right. 

2033
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:04,280
He's that's more of a winning 
through politics. 

2034
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:05,560
He wants to win through 
strength. 

2035
01:38:05,600 --> 01:38:09,920
He wants to dominate you in a 
way that shows he's stronger. 

2036
01:38:10,120 --> 01:38:13,080
Not in a way that shows he's 
cleverer or smarter, although 

2037
01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:14,880
he, I'm sure those things matter
to him. 

2038
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:21,080
But number one is I'm stronger. 
And cutting deals to win a war 

2039
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:22,560
isn't. 
I mean is it's a form of 

2040
01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:23,760
strength. 
It's political power. 

2041
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:28,600
But it's not that I beat you in 
the field idea that Aegon wants 

2042
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:32,120
to really establish that he 
really wants to drive home. 

2043
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:36,320
So maybe he thought about that 
idea of making the iron would 

2044
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:40,240
say, hey, Ironwood, take our 
side, be our man on the inside 

2045
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:44,120
and we'll make you top dogs. 
It may not have. 

2046
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:46,120
They may have abandoned the idea
because they didn't think it 

2047
01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:47,880
would work as well. 
Maybe the Iron woods, they just 

2048
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:52,160
the iron Woods of that era were 
not open to that sort of thing. 

2049
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:54,400
Like, no, we're Dornish, we're 
not turning on our own people. 

2050
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:59,880
Whereas that let you know 180 
years later when dorm was 

2051
01:38:59,880 --> 01:39:01,880
already part of the realm. 
It's a different consideration 

2052
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:03,840
for the Iron Woods of that era 
to join with the black fires 

2053
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:05,240
because you're really just 
picking one side of the 

2054
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:07,040
Targaryen family. 
You're not throwing them off 

2055
01:39:07,040 --> 01:39:08,760
entirely, right? 
That's the difference here is 

2056
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:13,600
this is against other Dornish 
men, whereas it's more adorn 

2057
01:39:13,600 --> 01:39:15,920
split in half during the black 
fire rebellions, they're more 

2058
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:17,960
fighting over the throne rather 
than each other. 

2059
01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:22,320
So the Jordanes steward, in 
fact, when he surrendered the 

2060
01:39:22,320 --> 01:39:25,120
third one, that may have even 
reminded them of the Tyrell 

2061
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:27,400
surrender of Highguards, like, 
well, maybe that's what I have 

2062
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:31,680
to do if if the top house isn't 
going to capitulate, I make 

2063
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:33,920
someone else the top house. 
That's kind of what happened in 

2064
01:39:33,920 --> 01:39:36,520
the Riverlands too. 
He's like, well, the Heron the 

2065
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:39,400
black didn't capitulate house 
whore is gone now or almost 

2066
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:41,400
gone. 
So Tully's you're up next, you 

2067
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:45,320
get to be top dog now. 
So it's not like he hadn't done 

2068
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:48,320
sort of similar things 
elsewhere, but I'm not sure it's

2069
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:50,200
what he wanted. 
I think he preferred to just 

2070
01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:52,560
take on the top dog and have 
them bend the knee to him. 

2071
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:56,000
Let's talk about how he declared
victory. 

2072
01:39:56,000 --> 01:39:59,880
He continued east towards 
Sunspear, continuing to meet 

2073
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:04,240
basically no resistance. 
Or odd resistance. 

2074
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:08,440
He took major sights in his 
path, and here's what came next.

2075
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:13,000
Farther east, Lord Tolland of 
Ghost Hill sent forth his 

2076
01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:16,280
champion to challenge the king 
to single combat. 

2077
01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:21,360
Aegon accepted and slew the man,
only to discover afterward that 

2078
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:25,520
he had not been Tolland's 
champion, but his fool, Lord 

2079
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:29,280
Tolland himself, was gone. 
It's just weird, right? 

2080
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:33,960
I I don't get it right. 
It's strange. 

2081
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:38,480
I don't understand what they 
hope to accomplish by this, 

2082
01:40:38,480 --> 01:40:40,600
right? 
But but start from the 

2083
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:41,440
beginning. 
Picture it. 

2084
01:40:41,440 --> 01:40:44,000
A lot of Lords might have been 
sweating the stool like, Oh my, 

2085
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:49,440
our king who has no air. 
Don't forget is going to duel 

2086
01:40:49,440 --> 01:40:51,360
someone. 
They might be a little anxious 

2087
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:53,040
about that. 
Some of them will be confident 

2088
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:55,960
because Aegon is just so strong 
and he is a great warrior. 

2089
01:40:55,960 --> 01:40:57,320
They probably wouldn't. 
They might not have been too 

2090
01:40:57,320 --> 01:40:59,680
worried, like they've never 
heard of this toll and champion.

2091
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:03,200
Who is this guy? 
He's nobody more true than they 

2092
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:05,640
thought. 
He's really, truly nobody. 

2093
01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:11,200
If if it were written, like with
pros, it might start like Gregor

2094
01:41:11,200 --> 01:41:15,320
versus Oberyn or Strong Bell 
Wass versus the hero of Marine, 

2095
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:17,120
only for it to turn into a 
complete day. 

2096
01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:19,760
You're like, wait, that wasn't 
Who was that? 

2097
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:21,680
That guy didn't look like he 
even knows how to fight. 

2098
01:41:22,600 --> 01:41:25,160
How long did it take for them to
figure out that he was the fool?

2099
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:26,800
Like they didn't just realize 
that right away. 

2100
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:29,200
Like, Aegon wins and they're 
like, well, that was easy. 

2101
01:41:29,440 --> 01:41:32,280
What's going on here? 
And what was it that took his 

2102
01:41:32,280 --> 01:41:34,160
armor off and underneath there's
motley. 

2103
01:41:34,160 --> 01:41:36,400
Like what? 
What was the moment in which 

2104
01:41:36,440 --> 01:41:39,280
they realized he was the fool? 
They might wonder. 

2105
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:43,480
Also, you know, it's the king. 
The Targaryen king is fighting a

2106
01:41:43,480 --> 01:41:45,560
duel against he. 
He it's a it's a fool. 

2107
01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:49,280
So maybe they didn't watch 
because they knew what was going

2108
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:51,120
to happen or. 
But maybe if they don't watch, 

2109
01:41:51,240 --> 01:41:53,960
doesn't that kind of give away 
that something is up right? 

2110
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:56,560
Like, why aren't any Dornishman 
watching this duel? 

2111
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:01,000
And how does this come to play? 
Like did they just leave this 

2112
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:04,520
fool behind? 
Like, OK, fool, we got to get 

2113
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,760
out of here, but we need someone
to stay behind to create a 

2114
01:42:07,760 --> 01:42:10,000
distraction. 
But that doesn't make a lot of 

2115
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,240
sense. 
They knew Aegon was coming weeks

2116
01:42:12,240 --> 01:42:13,640
ahead of time. 
Probably. 

2117
01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:17,360
So I just yeah, I don't. 
I don't really understand it. 

2118
01:42:17,480 --> 01:42:22,120
Was it meant to to annoy Aegon? 
To embarrass him, to shame him 

2119
01:42:22,120 --> 01:42:22,920
sometimes? 
Like, look at this. 

2120
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:24,840
He's killing fools. 
Look at how weak he is. 

2121
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:28,200
He's got to kill fools to make 
himself look strong because he 

2122
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:31,480
can't fight real warriors. 
Like yeah I really don't 

2123
01:42:31,560 --> 01:42:34,000
understand. 
And and this is when they 

2124
01:42:34,000 --> 01:42:36,600
changed their banner to a dragon
chasing its tail it had been a 

2125
01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:39,720
ghost because their ghost hill 
is their is their location. 

2126
01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:42,880
So I yeah I still so when they 
so when they gather to 

2127
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:46,200
commemorate this trick of their 
brave fool. 

2128
01:42:46,480 --> 01:42:47,880
What? 
What exactly are they 

2129
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:49,360
celebrating? 
Like that fool. 

2130
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:54,280
He sure did die pointlessly. 
Like, I don't. 

2131
01:42:54,720 --> 01:42:56,320
I don't know what this 
accomplished. 

2132
01:42:56,720 --> 01:42:58,800
I made a fool of him. 
I mean, it makes me think 

2133
01:42:58,800 --> 01:43:03,240
honestly of the humiliation 
tactic they used in the season 

2134
01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:06,040
of Fargo without any spoilers, 
with the idea that when you have

2135
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:10,880
a powerful man, humiliating him 
and making him look a fool to 

2136
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:14,880
other people can really. 
It hurts more than you might 

2137
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:17,160
think because he's so proud. 
Yeah, he's so proud. 

2138
01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:20,200
He's proud. 
Like his power is is a big part.

2139
01:43:20,400 --> 01:43:21,680
It's his power is a big part of 
his power. 

2140
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,240
But yeah, like, his status is a 
part of his power. 

2141
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:26,480
And yeah, I think it. 
Would, yeah. 

2142
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:28,720
Word would spread the Aegon duel
to fool. 

2143
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:31,120
Yeah, duel to fool. 
But yeah, I think it would. 

2144
01:43:31,120 --> 01:43:33,480
I think Dornishman probably sang
songs about this. 

2145
01:43:33,480 --> 01:43:36,560
This probably is a Dornish song 
about this exact thing. 

2146
01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:40,320
It gives heart to their people. 
Yeah, I I I think that even if 

2147
01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:42,840
it it doesn't stop things in its
tracks, but it helps. 

2148
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:45,520
And yeah, so that's, Nina 
writes. 

2149
01:43:45,520 --> 01:43:47,960
Maybe it's maybe, I'm assuming 
too much about their ability to 

2150
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:50,280
get away, Maybe they didn't have
as much warning. 

2151
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:53,880
Or maybe, yeah, maybe he moved 
quickly and maybe they didn't 

2152
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:55,840
know for sure he'd come for them
because he was heading for 

2153
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:59,240
Sunspear, and maybe they they 
gambled that he wouldn't bother 

2154
01:43:59,240 --> 01:44:02,000
with them. 
So who knows? 

2155
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:04,920
Now, interestingly enough to 
there's the house Tallinn has a 

2156
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:10,160
dragon dreamer in their in their
family right now, and it's kind 

2157
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:13,400
of a mystery how that happened. 
Well, there's possibilities, but

2158
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:14,920
it is interesting. 
It's not like a it's not like a 

2159
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:18,160
completely impenetrable mystery.
But it's it's interesting to tie

2160
01:44:18,160 --> 01:44:20,800
these these anecdotes together 
and and wonder if they're. 

2161
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:23,920
No, considering the Targaryens 
we have had, they've married 

2162
01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:27,000
into Dorne. 
Yeah, it makes sense that 

2163
01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:29,200
someone from that. 
A Martel Tolland matter. 

2164
01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:31,600
Yeah, exactly. 
Rather the yeah, the Martel. 

2165
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:33,520
'S had a lot of children, so. 
Yeah. 

2166
01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:36,680
So that that's my my choice, my 
theory there. 

2167
01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:39,120
I just think it makes great 
sense that the Martels, the 

2168
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:42,120
Tolland would marry and the 
Targaryens share their blood 

2169
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:45,880
with the Dornish and so now 
they'll pop up around Dorn. 

2170
01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:48,480
Potentially there's other houses
that that could happen to it. 

2171
01:44:48,520 --> 01:44:50,120
Yeah. 
And it really does open that 

2172
01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:51,960
possibility up that could happen
somewhere else, like other 

2173
01:44:51,960 --> 01:44:53,600
Dornish house maybe or something
here and there. 

2174
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:54,320
Yeah, it's pretty. 
Cool. 

2175
01:44:54,360 --> 01:44:56,280
It's also true. 
I mean I guess any other, any 

2176
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:59,240
houses where like Targaryen has 
married into. 

2177
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:02,080
I think in that region the 
people like marriages they could

2178
01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:03,920
make. 
You could, you could speculate 

2179
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:06,160
that like that is the case there
as well. 

2180
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:08,760
Yeah, and there's a couple other
possibilities. 

2181
01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:10,080
Yeah, maybe, yeah. 
Aegon. 

2182
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:13,240
Nina writes that fighting when 
Aegon finds out the champion was

2183
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:14,800
a fool, he would look like a 
fool himself. 

2184
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:16,520
You know, like he was duped into
this. 

2185
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:18,800
Whether or not like, there's 
multiple things that are 

2186
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:20,320
embarrassing about it, I guess. 
Yeah, maybe I maybe I 

2187
01:45:20,320 --> 01:45:22,320
underestimated the embarrassment
suffered by him. 

2188
01:45:22,320 --> 01:45:24,040
I like your example of Fargo. 
That's a good one. 

2189
01:45:24,240 --> 01:45:27,440
Yeah, didn't embarrass him. 
Yeah, yeah, He was very 

2190
01:45:27,440 --> 01:45:30,200
embarrassed by that. 
It was like, it's a like a 

2191
01:45:30,720 --> 01:45:32,880
regular person that's just like 
a it's like a prank, you know, 

2192
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:35,000
you're like, oh, that's funny. 
But like someone who's really 

2193
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:39,240
wrapped up in their own ego and 
their own reputation is so 

2194
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:44,160
important and respected and to 
have that to damage that damages

2195
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:47,360
his his kingship Even. 
So yeah, pretty cool. 

2196
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:49,640
Pretty cool. 
But it is possible that this 

2197
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:53,840
fool was it says this guy's mad.
He might have genuinely wanted 

2198
01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:55,080
to fight egg on. 
Like, there's still the idea of 

2199
01:45:55,080 --> 01:45:56,400
like, how do they get this guy 
to do it. 

2200
01:45:57,000 --> 01:45:58,760
Like, even if they did the fool 
really. 

2201
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:01,400
Like, you can order a man to do 
it, but, like, how is he going 

2202
01:46:01,400 --> 01:46:04,040
to, like, have the courage to 
actually do it? 

2203
01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:05,920
You know, he might just be like,
I'm too afraid of this man. 

2204
01:46:05,920 --> 01:46:07,760
I know you're ordering me to do 
it, but I'm just going to run 

2205
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:09,640
away if I don't want to fight 
this guy. 

2206
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:12,360
He really did face him and die. 
So he's a fool. 

2207
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:17,640
He is a fool. 
But there is, you know, there 

2208
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:19,760
are a few real world examples of
things like this. 

2209
01:46:19,760 --> 01:46:25,240
There was a a knight in William 
the Conqueror's army, I believe 

2210
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:27,040
it was who. 
There's a story where this guy 

2211
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:32,080
just like launched himself at 
the opposing army by himself in 

2212
01:46:32,080 --> 01:46:36,560
between like forays. 
Like the two armies were 

2213
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:39,440
separated and this guy just like
launched himself forward and was

2214
01:46:39,440 --> 01:46:41,760
like naked or something. 
I can't forget all the details, 

2215
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:43,960
but he was just someone just 
went mad. 

2216
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:46,240
He charged by himself, and of 
course he died. 

2217
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:48,880
You know, it was just really 
weird. 

2218
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:53,920
But again, so many things that 
are weird that happened in 

2219
01:46:53,920 --> 01:46:56,320
Westeros history. 
There's something just as weird 

2220
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,720
in a nearly identical way that 
happened in the real world and 

2221
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:02,320
which might in fact be the 
inspiration for that. 

2222
01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:04,520
And we already have a legend of 
Florian the fool. 

2223
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:09,600
There's already a popular 
Westerosi legend, one of the 

2224
01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:13,040
most popular stories, one of the
most memorable, like Fables of 

2225
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:14,880
Westeros or Legends, whatever 
you want to call it. 

2226
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:17,080
I don't think they use the word 
fable, but still, it's a it's a 

2227
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:21,680
appropriate term. 
So Dorne is they know Flory the 

2228
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:24,840
Fool down in Dorne. 
I mean Tansel Tansel the Tall. 

2229
01:47:24,840 --> 01:47:29,240
She puts on Flory the Fool as 
one of her puppet shows in the 

2230
01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:32,320
Hedge Night. 
And yeah, and any fool can be a 

2231
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:33,680
great knight according to this 
legend. 

2232
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:38,400
So maybe this crazy fool was 
even thinking of himself as a 

2233
01:47:38,400 --> 01:47:40,400
true Florian. 
Maybe they maybe they refer to 

2234
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:42,760
him as their Florian because we 
don't know what this guy's name 

2235
01:47:42,760 --> 01:47:47,680
was. 
Florian Talland the mad fool. 

2236
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:50,040
He wouldn't have been a tall and
probably, but Florian of the 

2237
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:53,360
Tallands, Yeah. 
So that's kind of cool. 

2238
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:54,720
Yeah. 
It's kind of neat little story. 

2239
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:57,640
It's both weird and interesting 
and and quirky and and just 

2240
01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:01,320
yeah, it's kind of interesting 
that he even accepted the duel 

2241
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:04,440
in the 1st place, though. 
Not too surprising given he 

2242
01:48:04,440 --> 01:48:06,800
wants to show himself as a 
Dominator and he had already 

2243
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:08,160
done it. 
He'd already dueled a few other 

2244
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:11,440
people like I think the most 
recent one had been at at 

2245
01:48:11,640 --> 01:48:15,160
Valmark in the Iron Islands. 
Or maybe not Valmark. 

2246
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:18,880
Maybe Black tried to forget, but
he fought one of those guys in a

2247
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:21,360
duel in the Iron Islands during 
that episode. 

2248
01:48:21,720 --> 01:48:25,080
I still think it is, by the way,
a little odd. 

2249
01:48:25,080 --> 01:48:28,000
Like, it may, may be even 
necessary, but it's a bit of a 

2250
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:30,440
risk. 
You know, He's got to really 

2251
01:48:30,440 --> 01:48:33,680
think he's better than the best 
of maybe. 

2252
01:48:34,440 --> 01:48:36,040
Never mind. 
Maybe it wasn't the same 

2253
01:48:36,040 --> 01:48:39,200
reputation at that time, but 
maybe the fear of poisoning too.

2254
01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:42,960
You know, like maybe he just had
enough confidence in his armor 

2255
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:45,560
and his blade and his training, 
and maybe there would have been 

2256
01:48:45,560 --> 01:48:48,920
instructions for someone with 
the bow and arrow to like. 

2257
01:48:49,320 --> 01:48:51,760
Yeah, I was something like. 
A blow from being dealt but. 

2258
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:54,120
Yeah, maybe there was like a 
yeah, I would have expected 

2259
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:55,640
maybe it was an assassination 
attempt. 

2260
01:48:55,640 --> 01:49:00,120
And you know, they just, it's 
surprising how few or no 

2261
01:49:00,120 --> 01:49:02,480
assassination attempts there are
at this point given that there 

2262
01:49:02,480 --> 01:49:06,000
will be lots later. 
So I wonder if they just like 

2263
01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:09,400
flip the switch like, OK, we're 
not like this, but now we are. 

2264
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:10,320
But I don't, I don't really 
think so. 

2265
01:49:10,320 --> 01:49:12,240
I mean they were totally willing
to do night attacks and all 

2266
01:49:12,240 --> 01:49:13,760
these other like guerrilla 
warfare stuff. 

2267
01:49:13,760 --> 01:49:17,360
I don't know why they'd scruple 
to not try to murder the king or

2268
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:18,080
one of the Queens. 
Well. 

2269
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:21,800
Maybe because they're afraid if 
they did that, he would 

2270
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:24,960
ruthlessly burn cities down. 
Yeah, but once they're 

2271
01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:26,880
ruthlessly burning cities down 
anyway. 

2272
01:49:26,880 --> 01:49:28,160
OK, fine. 
We're going to try to poison 

2273
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:28,640
you. 
I. 

2274
01:49:28,640 --> 01:49:32,200
Agree, because I think their 
idea was to get them to leave. 

2275
01:49:32,760 --> 01:49:34,680
And if you kill the king, 
they're not going to leave, 

2276
01:49:34,680 --> 01:49:37,040
they're going to, they're going 
to, like you say, get really 

2277
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:38,280
vicious and bloody and 
murderous. 

2278
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:40,440
On the other hand, killing the 
king might end the war. 

2279
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:42,520
So there is like that's it's a 
calculated. 

2280
01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:46,320
It might dream, it might attract
2 more dragon riders, yeah. 

2281
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:47,240
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

2282
01:49:47,440 --> 01:49:49,680
Well, one was already there. 
So what the the other dragon 

2283
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:52,000
rider. 
Yeah, yeah, either way. 

2284
01:49:52,280 --> 01:49:55,080
So and and from Aegon's 
perspective, like they continue,

2285
01:49:55,080 --> 01:49:58,040
they keep not facing him. 
Finally someone's willing to 

2286
01:49:58,040 --> 01:49:59,840
fight him. 
You know, it's just a duel. 

2287
01:49:59,840 --> 01:50:01,880
It's not an army, but it's 
something that he can go, all 

2288
01:50:01,880 --> 01:50:03,680
right, I can. 
I'll win this. 

2289
01:50:04,280 --> 01:50:06,520
It's something I can plant my 
flag in and be like, look, 

2290
01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:09,000
here's a victory. 
It's me personally winning it. 

2291
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:11,240
I didn't send someone else to do
it only for it to be 

2292
01:50:11,240 --> 01:50:12,880
embarrassing because it was a 
fool. 

2293
01:50:13,080 --> 01:50:15,520
So he's like, finally, all 
right, someone was going to 

2294
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:17,960
fight me, but oops. 
Nope, they not. 

2295
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:19,160
That happened. 
Maybe he convinced. 

2296
01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:21,840
Maybe he was still convincing 
himself They were afraid at this

2297
01:50:21,840 --> 01:50:24,680
point and then at this point, 
OK, this isn't fear. 

2298
01:50:25,120 --> 01:50:27,040
They're messing with me. 
They're trying to. 

2299
01:50:27,040 --> 01:50:29,920
They're just doing asymmetrical 
warfare, which may be something 

2300
01:50:29,920 --> 01:50:31,840
he wasn't that familiar with. 
He certainly didn't use that 

2301
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:35,800
term, asymmetrical warfare, but 
he started. 

2302
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:39,200
Maybe I wonder at which point he
realized that this just wasn't 

2303
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:43,600
working, or whether they're not 
playing by quote UN quote, the 

2304
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:47,200
rules of warfare he was used to 
whether that would ultimately 

2305
01:50:47,200 --> 01:50:50,680
result in some other outcome. 
Because as we're going to see, 

2306
01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:56,640
he's just going to declare 
victory without really ever 

2307
01:50:56,640 --> 01:50:59,280
beating the people he came to 
beat. 

2308
01:50:59,520 --> 01:51:02,840
So it was said Lord Tallinn had 
gone away, right? 

2309
01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:04,160
And all these other Lords 
before. 

2310
01:51:04,160 --> 01:51:08,040
That quote continues here. 
As was Miriam Martell, the 

2311
01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:12,480
Princess of Dorne, when King 
Aegon descended upon Sunspear on

2312
01:51:12,480 --> 01:51:17,080
Valerian to find his sister 
Rainey's there before him after 

2313
01:51:17,080 --> 01:51:19,680
burning the planky town she had 
taken. 

2314
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:25,200
Lemon wood spots wood and stink 
water, accepting opiocence from 

2315
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:30,360
old women and children, but 
nowhere finding an actual enemy.

2316
01:51:31,040 --> 01:51:35,520
Even the Shadow City outside the
walls of Sunspear was half 

2317
01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:39,320
deserted, and none of those who 
remained would admit to any 

2318
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:43,360
knowledge of the whereabouts of 
the Dornish Lords and Princess. 

2319
01:51:43,600 --> 01:51:47,880
The Yellow Toad has melted into 
the sands, Queen Rainice told 

2320
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:51,560
King Aegon. 
Aegon's answer was a declaration

2321
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:52,880
of victory. 
Yeah. 

2322
01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:55,400
So it's another example of 
overconfidence, quite possibly. 

2323
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:58,280
Like, they're thinking, well, we
win, they didn't face us, so we 

2324
01:51:58,280 --> 01:51:59,080
win. 
It's that simple. 

2325
01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:01,040
We've got their capital. 
It's like capture the flag. 

2326
01:52:01,040 --> 01:52:04,320
Like they left it sitting here, 
We took it, we win, Right. 

2327
01:52:04,320 --> 01:52:06,440
Given the rules of warfare, 
they're used to that. 

2328
01:52:06,440 --> 01:52:11,280
It's ingrained in their minds. 
This is a victory, but it's not.

2329
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:14,400
Maybe it's just a political 
statement, like, well, they're 

2330
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:15,920
not. 
They refuse to admit they've 

2331
01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:18,160
lost. 
So we're just going to loudly 

2332
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:21,120
declare victory because it's the
best we can do. 

2333
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:24,800
What are we going to do? 
Say well I guess we didn't win 

2334
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:27,000
after all. 
What's he going to declare non 

2335
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:28,720
victory? 
I mean he's got to do something.

2336
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:32,320
But as we've said Sean, in many 
different ways, running away 

2337
01:52:32,320 --> 01:52:35,680
isn't giving up. 
They're still fighting. 

2338
01:52:35,680 --> 01:52:39,240
It's just they're just not 
fighting Frontal warfare. 

2339
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:41,200
Nina brings up another real 
world example here. 

2340
01:52:41,200 --> 01:52:43,920
King William the 3rd and the 
glorious Revolution. 

2341
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:45,800
Facing the invasion of his 
daughter and son-in-law, King 

2342
01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:50,280
James the Second of England fled
to France, which he threw the 

2343
01:52:50,280 --> 01:52:54,400
Great Seal, which is like the 
the the royal Insignia. 

2344
01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:57,080
He threw it into the Thames. 
He just threw it in the river. 

2345
01:52:57,560 --> 01:52:59,400
William and his government 
thereafter decided to say that 

2346
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,240
by fleeing abroad and abandoning
the Great Seal, he had advocated

2347
01:53:02,240 --> 01:53:04,640
like you. 
By doing that, you have declared

2348
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:06,960
you're no longer the king. 
He they just took that as a sign

2349
01:53:06,960 --> 01:53:08,680
of capitulation. 
So they just like made-up a 

2350
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:10,280
rule. 
They're like if you do that, 

2351
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:11,480
that means you're not king 
anymore. 

2352
01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:14,160
And a lot of people would buy 
that because against they're the

2353
01:53:14,160 --> 01:53:16,720
ones who have the voice, they're
the ones making the narrative, 

2354
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:18,280
and no one else can argue with 
them. 

2355
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:21,880
They have the armies and the the
voices and the pens and paper 

2356
01:53:22,600 --> 01:53:26,000
making these declarations. 
Whether the other armies and 

2357
01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:29,280
other kings and Lords and ladies
agree with that, it's another 

2358
01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:32,240
matter and the declaration isn't
going to affect that over much, 

2359
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:36,000
although it may affect some 
people in the middle and what 

2360
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:39,480
side they take. 
So yeah, just better to it's 

2361
01:53:39,480 --> 01:53:43,000
better than admitting that that 
they had their strategy was a 

2362
01:53:43,000 --> 01:53:46,160
failure, better admitting that 
the Dornish had out manoeuvred 

2363
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:49,680
them, say hey, we're in your 
castle so we win. 

2364
01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:53,880
It's a better optics, I guess, 
even though it's not necessarily

2365
01:53:53,880 --> 01:53:56,600
the truth. 
At the time, it would have felt 

2366
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:58,680
like the truth. 
It's easier again for us to look

2367
01:53:58,680 --> 01:54:03,640
at it with 2020 hindsight, but 
why would they not think they 

2368
01:54:03,640 --> 01:54:05,280
won when they're in the Tack 
Castle? 

2369
01:54:05,280 --> 01:54:08,400
Of their opponent, you know. 
So I guess it's because there's 

2370
01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:11,400
still so many Dornish out there 
who had not capitulated. 

2371
01:54:11,400 --> 01:54:14,720
But I guess the rest of Westeros
doesn't know that. 

2372
01:54:14,720 --> 01:54:18,280
Like from in the Stormlands, in 
the Reach and Taverns all around

2373
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:19,960
Westeros. 
They all they're hearing is that

2374
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:23,240
the king is in Sunspear now Like
well he must have. 

2375
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:26,400
They might even assume some 
battle was won that he to do 

2376
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:28,640
that they might not have even 
they might not have heard the 

2377
01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:32,680
part about no one was there, 
they just walked in. 

2378
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:35,160
That part might not have been 
part of the rumor, might just 

2379
01:54:35,160 --> 01:54:37,520
have been some victory or other 
might have been assumed. 

2380
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:40,960
So in addition to this very 
sketchy declaration of victory, 

2381
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:44,640
Aegon's plan to rule Dorne 
afterwards also has some very 

2382
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:49,680
glaring red flags that I think a
lot of you will identify right 

2383
01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:53,680
away here in this quote. 
In the Great Hall at Sunspear, 

2384
01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:56,320
he gathered together what 
dignitaries remained and told 

2385
01:54:56,320 --> 01:54:59,200
them that dorm was now part of 
the realm, that henceforth they 

2386
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:01,960
would be his legal subjects, 
that their former Lords were 

2387
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:04,680
rebels and outlaws. 
Rewards were offered for their 

2388
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:07,880
heads, particularly that of the 
Yellow Toad, Princess Maria 

2389
01:55:08,080 --> 01:55:10,160
Martel. 
Lord John Rossby was named 

2390
01:55:10,160 --> 01:55:13,080
Castellano, Sunspear and Warden 
of the Sands to rule Doran in 

2391
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:15,440
the King's name. 
Stewards and Castellans were 

2392
01:55:15,440 --> 01:55:18,320
named for all the lands and 
castles the Conqueror had taken.

2393
01:55:18,760 --> 01:55:21,480
Then King Aegon and his host 
departed back the way they had 

2394
01:55:21,480 --> 01:55:25,000
come W along the foothills and 
through the Prince's Pass. 

2395
01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:28,200
They had hardly reached King's 
Landing before Dorne erupted 

2396
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:29,960
behind them. 
Yeah, so this is what we were 

2397
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:33,680
saying before is that they were 
trying to lull Aegon into in 

2398
01:55:33,680 --> 01:55:36,440
this, into declaring A premature
victory and then leaving. 

2399
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:40,440
And then that would enable them 
to slaughter everyone he left 

2400
01:55:40,440 --> 01:55:43,040
behind, which is exactly what 
happened. 

2401
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:46,800
Maybe Aegon thought he was 
clever, putting in Lord Rosby in

2402
01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:51,520
charge, because that's not a 
Stormlander, not a Reachman. 

2403
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:53,080
It's like, well, they won't hate
him as much. 

2404
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,400
Yeah, they don't have grudges 
against Lords North of the 

2405
01:55:56,400 --> 01:55:59,600
Blackwater, right? 
Actually, yeah, they they do. 

2406
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:01,520
Because he's an invader. 
Like it? 

2407
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:05,760
They might hate a Stormlander 
more, but it's like that million

2408
01:56:05,760 --> 01:56:08,400
degrees a day thing. 
It's still well over the bar for

2409
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:11,120
hating him. 
Hating more doesn't make that 

2410
01:56:11,120 --> 01:56:12,720
much difference. 
You know he's still an invader. 

2411
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:14,760
You know this man is not going 
to rule over them if they have 

2412
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:17,680
any say of it. 
And well, here's what happens. 

2413
01:56:17,680 --> 01:56:20,680
Next quote. 
Dornish Spearman appeared from 

2414
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:25,000
nowhere like desert flowers 
after a rain sky Reach. 

2415
01:56:25,040 --> 01:56:28,880
Ironwood, the Tor and Ghost Hill
were all recaptured within a 

2416
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:31,960
fortnight, their royal garrisons
put to the sword. 

2417
01:56:32,480 --> 01:56:37,720
Aegons, Castellans and stewards 
were allowed to die only after 

2418
01:56:37,720 --> 01:56:40,600
long torment. 
It was said that the Dornish 

2419
01:56:40,600 --> 01:56:44,680
Lords had a wager over who could
keep their captive alive the 

2420
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:47,480
longest whilst dismembering 
them. 

2421
01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:51,840
Lord Rosby, Castellan of 
Sunspear and Warden of the 

2422
01:56:51,840 --> 01:56:56,840
Sands, had a kinder end than 
most after the Dornish men 

2423
01:56:56,840 --> 01:57:00,480
swarmed in from the Shadow City 
to retake the castle. 

2424
01:57:00,640 --> 01:57:05,280
He was bound hand and foot, 
dragged to the top of the Spear 

2425
01:57:05,280 --> 01:57:09,880
Tower and thrown from a window 
by none other than the aged 

2426
01:57:09,920 --> 01:57:14,520
Princess Miria herself. 
This to me probably was a bit 

2427
01:57:14,520 --> 01:57:18,160
like King Viserys killing the 
stag in House of the Dragon, 

2428
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:20,480
where it's just all set up for 
him and all he has to do is just

2429
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:22,680
like stabbing. 
They're basically holding it in 

2430
01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:24,880
place for him. 
This is probably what it was 

2431
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:26,640
like. 
Mary is again like in her 80s, 

2432
01:57:26,640 --> 01:57:30,720
so she probably just like barely
pushes him and they just like 

2433
01:57:31,320 --> 01:57:33,880
they set him like, so he's able 
to topple right out, you know, 

2434
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:37,280
But it's pretty nasty. 
But these are unprovoked 

2435
01:57:37,280 --> 01:57:38,960
invasions. 
These are home destroyers. 

2436
01:57:38,960 --> 01:57:40,360
I mean these are this is 
vicious. 

2437
01:57:40,360 --> 01:57:43,880
This is vicious versus vicious 
and and they're led by again, 

2438
01:57:44,240 --> 01:57:50,160
ancestral foe, traumatic 
legends, right, Dornish, Roinar.

2439
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:54,040
They're going to have sympathy 
for people who are opposing 

2440
01:57:54,040 --> 01:57:57,560
Valyrians, Dragons, Targaryens 
on just on general principle. 

2441
01:57:57,640 --> 01:58:01,400
This is an ancient enemy and 
they want to intimidate people, 

2442
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:03,520
intimidation, psychological 
warfare. 

2443
01:58:03,520 --> 01:58:07,200
All this stuff is in place. 
This is part of their plan 

2444
01:58:07,200 --> 01:58:10,680
because they can't win through 
the traditional conservative 

2445
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:15,440
frontal assault means they have 
to use what they have and this 

2446
01:58:15,440 --> 01:58:17,840
is what they have. 
Like what happened to Ori's, 

2447
01:58:17,840 --> 01:58:20,760
Baratheon's army. 
There was a psychological plan 

2448
01:58:20,760 --> 01:58:23,080
in mind here. 
It wasn't just pure savagery. 

2449
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:27,560
It was savage strategy, 
strategy, savagery. 

2450
01:58:27,560 --> 01:58:29,240
I don't know. 
There's a word in there 

2451
01:58:29,240 --> 01:58:32,920
somewhere that can be made. 
It's sort of terrorism, you 

2452
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:37,320
know, like in in modern terms or
modern rules of warfare or 

2453
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:38,760
whatever. 
A lot of what the both sides are

2454
01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:40,920
doing, honestly, I was going to 
say what would they have done 

2455
01:58:40,920 --> 01:58:43,960
with that Rosby guy if they had 
had a grudge? 

2456
01:58:43,960 --> 01:58:45,280
Again, what if he was a 
Reachman? 

2457
01:58:45,680 --> 01:58:46,840
Yeah, that's that's the 
difference. 

2458
01:58:46,840 --> 01:58:48,760
It makes like had a kinder end 
than most. 

2459
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:51,000
He only fell to his death. 
Yeah, he would have been if he 

2460
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:52,200
had been a Stormlander, A 
reachman. 

2461
01:58:52,200 --> 01:58:53,240
Yeah. 
I think they might have tortured

2462
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:56,080
him more, yeah. 
By the way, don't, don't blow 

2463
01:58:56,080 --> 01:58:59,400
off that line bound hand and 
foot and dragged up the. 

2464
01:58:59,400 --> 01:59:02,080
Can you imagine That's like 
literally being beaten with the 

2465
01:59:02,080 --> 01:59:04,960
bat 1000 times, maybe. 
Like every step of your body 

2466
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:08,400
being smacked as you get no way 
to protect your face or 

2467
01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:09,600
anything, you know? 
That would be awful. 

2468
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:12,520
Yeah, that's that's real bad. 
So it was called the 

2469
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:16,840
defenestration of Sunspear and 
the calendar had shifted to AC-5

2470
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:19,400
by the time it happened. 
So we can roughly about a year. 

2471
01:59:19,400 --> 01:59:21,640
I guess this portion of the war 
was maybe a little less, 

2472
01:59:21,760 --> 01:59:24,200
certainly not two though. 
You got to give them some style 

2473
01:59:24,200 --> 01:59:25,880
points and symbol points for 
that last one. 

2474
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:30,280
As gnarly as all this is Maria. 
Maria doing it herself giving 

2475
01:59:30,280 --> 01:59:33,480
given all her infirmities and 
how old she is, like it, it 

2476
01:59:33,480 --> 01:59:38,280
really shows that the Dornish 
will resist to the last and and 

2477
01:59:38,280 --> 01:59:40,600
using different means than what 
would be accepted northwards, 

2478
01:59:40,600 --> 01:59:45,440
right, like even the old women 
are in the fight is kind of what

2479
01:59:45,440 --> 01:59:46,760
it symbolizes. 
Even the old. 

2480
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,680
The oldish women who are in 
their society are perhaps the 

2481
01:59:49,680 --> 01:59:52,280
weakest, which is not true, but 
they might see it that way. 

2482
01:59:53,560 --> 01:59:58,200
Even they will stand up to these
Knights, to these Lords of the 

2483
01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:02,080
the other kingdoms. 
And that's how that's the face 

2484
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:04,680
that Doran puts on this, that 
they will resist. 

2485
02:00:05,280 --> 02:00:10,360
Even the quote UN quote weakest 
of them will resist and fight 

2486
02:00:10,440 --> 02:00:12,480
and this is what happens. 
So yeah. 

2487
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:17,400
So the farther South and West 
the Tyrell army under Lord 

2488
02:00:17,400 --> 02:00:20,240
Harlan mobilized. 
Here's how we recall how 

2489
02:00:20,240 --> 02:00:21,400
difficult things are in the 
hellhole. 

2490
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:23,760
We did an episode like you said 
Sean, hardcore houses. 

2491
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:27,160
Pretty recently we spoke of it 
in a few places besides that as 

2492
02:00:27,160 --> 02:00:28,520
well. 
The Highgarden episode, it came 

2493
02:00:28,520 --> 02:00:32,440
up a bit so and remember they 
that army already wasn't at full

2494
02:00:32,440 --> 02:00:37,600
strength. 
So that was a yeah, a bad time, 

2495
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:40,200
right. 
So they were already weakened by

2496
02:00:40,200 --> 02:00:43,240
who knows how much. 
And the corguiles, 

2497
02:00:43,240 --> 02:00:46,080
interestingly, another hardcore 
house had never submitted at 

2498
02:00:46,080 --> 02:00:47,480
all. 
No one ever came to them and 

2499
02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:48,920
said, hey you give up now, 
right? 

2500
02:00:48,920 --> 02:00:50,640
They were like, no, we're in the
deep desert. 

2501
02:00:50,640 --> 02:00:53,160
No one even bothered to come to 
us because we're so far off the 

2502
02:00:53,160 --> 02:00:55,080
beaten path. 
So they were still like 

2503
02:00:55,400 --> 02:00:58,560
attacking hell hold here and 
there sending raiding parties in

2504
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:03,440
attacking their food supplies. 
But eventually they heard the 

2505
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:08,160
the Helholtz Tyrells heard about
the defenestration got that 

2506
02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:14,520
beaten up understaffed sick army
and headed E to to go to Vaith 

2507
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:17,600
and vanished. 
I think you all remember this 

2508
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:20,000
one that that's been cited a few
times. 

2509
02:01:20,240 --> 02:01:24,520
So all of that army's gone, all 
of that Baratheon force gone. 

2510
02:01:25,560 --> 02:01:29,080
A a part of Aegon's army 
destroyed as well because he had

2511
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:31,040
some losses here and there. 
He didn't go through the deep 

2512
02:01:31,040 --> 02:01:34,800
deserts and you know, but still 
they he left men behind his 

2513
02:01:34,800 --> 02:01:38,720
garrisons, all of which were 
destroyed to a man. 

2514
02:01:39,320 --> 02:01:45,080
So I'm going to guess that out 
of about 31,000 fighting men 

2515
02:01:45,080 --> 02:01:48,240
that went into Dorne, only about
12,000 survived. 

2516
02:01:48,240 --> 02:01:51,760
So about 19,000 or so died. 
Not to mention the officials, 

2517
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:54,880
tax collectors, all the other 
folks who came afterwards and 

2518
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:57,040
non combatants who also died 
during 'cause, you know, they 

2519
02:01:57,040 --> 02:01:59,800
weren't the only ones, You know,
it wasn't just the soldiers 

2520
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:03,200
dying of starvation and or 
rather of thirst and heat, some 

2521
02:02:03,200 --> 02:02:08,800
of the camp followers as well, 
and just people sharpening the 

2522
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:11,560
weapons and providing the food. 
They would have been suffering 

2523
02:02:11,560 --> 02:02:15,240
just as badly and maybe even 
worse 'cause this a lot of times

2524
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:16,560
the soldiers are considered more
important. 

2525
02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:20,760
So yeah, all right, it's a 
decent spot to leave it the 

2526
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:25,760
ending of the army and the sort 
of finishing of the first 

2527
02:02:25,760 --> 02:02:28,680
portion of this war. 
Next time up we'll start by 

2528
02:02:28,680 --> 02:02:32,520
discussing some of the strategy 
and why some of these things 

2529
02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:35,440
went wrong, both in terms of 
navies and Dragons. 

2530
02:02:35,560 --> 02:02:39,000
And then get into the non 
traditional aspect of this war, 

2531
02:02:39,000 --> 02:02:42,640
the part that lasted the 
longest, the assassinations, the

2532
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:47,840
the subterfuge, the cloak and 
dagger, the really dirty and 

2533
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:51,200
savage and bloody and brutal 
portions of this war that are 

2534
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:54,920
really kind of unlike anything 
else in the history of Westeros.

2535
02:02:55,560 --> 02:02:58,600
It's very unique. 
Maybe only A Song of Ice and 

2536
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:03,280
Fire itself fits as a parallel 
to some of the stuff that we're 

2537
02:03:03,320 --> 02:03:05,920
going to get into next time. 
You know when you talk about 

2538
02:03:05,920 --> 02:03:09,880
1000 men trapped on a bridge 
getting butchered like pigs, and

2539
02:03:09,880 --> 02:03:11,960
then you say next time we're 
going to get into the really 

2540
02:03:11,960 --> 02:03:17,800
brutal part, jeez. 
Yeah, I guess it's not really as

2541
02:03:17,800 --> 02:03:20,200
it isn't worse in that sense. 
It's just a different form of 

2542
02:03:20,200 --> 02:03:21,640
brutal. 
It's a different brand of 

2543
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:23,400
brutal, yeah. 
It's more of more of the 

2544
02:03:23,400 --> 02:03:26,640
murdering and torturing and. 
I would say it may even be more 

2545
02:03:26,640 --> 02:03:29,960
brutal because people because 
those soldiers all were soldiers

2546
02:03:29,960 --> 02:03:32,280
going to war and you know, I 
guess maybe they didn't know 

2547
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:35,320
exactly volunteer for it, but a 
lot more innocent people get 

2548
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:36,840
destroyed. 
You know, we, I mean I guess it 

2549
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:39,240
was also pretty brutal to burn 
Plankey Town and you know all 

2550
02:03:39,240 --> 02:03:41,760
these other things. 
So I do think that there is some

2551
02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:43,280
similarly brutal stuff coming 
up. 

2552
02:03:43,360 --> 02:03:45,880
Yeah, I think so too. 
So if you like brutality, we've 

2553
02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:48,840
got the stuff for you. 
Come back next time. 

2554
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:50,240
Well, there won't be a new 
recording. 

2555
02:03:50,240 --> 02:03:52,560
Next week. 
We will be at Magfest in 

2556
02:03:52,560 --> 02:03:54,480
Washington, DC. 
So if you're going to be there, 

2557
02:03:54,480 --> 02:03:57,120
come. 
That is the Music and Gaming 

2558
02:03:57,120 --> 02:03:59,200
Festival. 
That's right, to be clear. 

2559
02:03:59,240 --> 02:04:02,200
Yes, mag, Just MAG. 
There's no other letter at the 

2560
02:04:02,200 --> 02:04:03,680
end of that. 
Yeah, music and gaming. 

2561
02:04:03,680 --> 02:04:06,440
So yeah, if you're in Maryland 
area, we will be there. 

2562
02:04:07,080 --> 02:04:09,360
Hope to see you there. 
Yeah, we're driving on up. 

2563
02:04:09,400 --> 02:04:12,160
That's right. 
So back in two weeks for the 

2564
02:04:12,320 --> 02:04:15,720
second-half of the First Dornish
War and the today's trivia 

2565
02:04:15,720 --> 02:04:18,200
question. 
Remember, House Holland is now a

2566
02:04:18,200 --> 02:04:21,920
dragon chasing its tail, but it 
was a ghost for Ghost Hill. 

2567
02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:24,480
That's right. 
Which is one of the only reasons

2568
02:04:24,480 --> 02:04:27,040
we know ghosts are a thing in 
all the Westeros, because the 

2569
02:04:27,040 --> 02:04:31,560
only other ghost I can think of 
is John pretending to be a ghost

2570
02:04:32,040 --> 02:04:34,560
by covering himself in flower. 
So that clearly that's a thing 

2571
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:36,840
that he was trying to. 
Be and the word ghost of high 

2572
02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:38,360
heart. 
Yeah, the word comes up. 

2573
02:04:38,640 --> 02:04:38,960
You're. 
Right. 

2574
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:41,600
But I mean like the 
personification of a ghost. 

2575
02:04:41,600 --> 02:04:43,800
Like what do they look like? 
Like we think of the sheet, you 

2576
02:04:43,800 --> 02:04:44,360
know, the white. 
Sheet. 

2577
02:04:44,360 --> 02:04:46,000
I think they look like a big 
white dire wolf. 

2578
02:04:48,320 --> 02:04:50,200
With red eyes, it never makes a 
sound. 

2579
02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:52,920
Oh yeah, so that's. 
Yeah. 

2580
02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:55,480
So I so, I don't know. 
So when I picture a sigil of 

2581
02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:56,800
ghost till I'm like, what does 
that ghost? 

2582
02:04:57,000 --> 02:04:59,880
What did it look like? 
Was it like a Casper or was it 

2583
02:04:59,880 --> 02:05:03,120
what does a Westerosi ghost? 
What image look like? 

2584
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:04,480
It was slimer. 
It was green. 

2585
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:06,760
Yeah, yeah, well, it's a green 
dragon on their new ones, so it 

2586
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:08,680
would be it would be consistent 
to have a green ghost. 

2587
02:05:08,720 --> 02:05:11,680
So yeah. 
Other episodes that you might 

2588
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:15,200
want to check out to keep 
immersed on this topic include 

2589
02:05:15,200 --> 02:05:17,640
Nymeria, both one episodes, one 
and two. 

2590
02:05:17,640 --> 02:05:20,280
One day we'll do the third one, 
which is her conquest of Dorn 

2591
02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:22,280
itself. 
The first two are the different 

2592
02:05:22,280 --> 02:05:26,760
phases of the Roinish Odyssey. 
Daron the first, the Young 

2593
02:05:26,760 --> 02:05:27,840
Dragon. 
We've got an episode on him. 

2594
02:05:27,840 --> 02:05:31,360
We talked about him a few times.
This episode we mentioned the 

2595
02:05:31,360 --> 02:05:34,320
Highgarden episode. 
We mentioned hardcore houses a 

2596
02:05:34,320 --> 02:05:35,800
couple times. 
But there's so many other 

2597
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:38,480
Targaryen related episodes and 
Doran related episodes you could

2598
02:05:38,480 --> 02:05:41,200
find in our catalogue. 
Anything from Ancient Doran all 

2599
02:05:41,200 --> 02:05:46,640
the way to episodes about 
Valyria and Valyria Targaryen 

2600
02:05:46,640 --> 02:05:49,320
related houses like House 
Valerian and House Celtic are. 

2601
02:05:49,440 --> 02:05:52,480
And of course, don't forget the 
Last Storm episode, available 

2602
02:05:52,480 --> 02:05:56,240
for patrons and members only, 
and the Red Kraken episode, 

2603
02:05:56,240 --> 02:05:59,800
which takes place during the 
Dance of the Dragons and is such

2604
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:02,400
a story that functions on its 
own that we decided to tell that

2605
02:06:02,400 --> 02:06:04,760
tale separately. 
It's a it's a bonus episode, and

2606
02:06:04,760 --> 02:06:08,680
we did it with Radio Westeros 
alongside the rest of our Dance 

2607
02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:10,560
of the Dragon series, which is 
available to everyone. 

2608
02:06:11,280 --> 02:06:13,520
Yes, right, Red Kraken and Last 
Storm episodes. 

2609
02:06:13,520 --> 02:06:16,840
Good example of bonus scripted 
episodes you get by joining us 

2610
02:06:16,840 --> 02:06:20,040
on Patreon, and thanks to those 
of you who do support us there. 

2611
02:06:20,040 --> 02:06:22,520
And on Spotify, you get those 
bonus episodes if you're a 

2612
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:25,840
Spotify subscriber as well. 
Thanks again to Nina for the 

2613
02:06:25,840 --> 02:06:28,320
great notes. 
Lots of great takes on politics 

2614
02:06:28,320 --> 02:06:30,640
and parallels and history. 
I have a cat in my lap 

2615
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:31,920
currently. 
Oh, look at that. 

2616
02:06:31,920 --> 02:06:33,840
Yeah, she's black, so we can't 
tell very well. 

2617
02:06:34,560 --> 02:06:37,720
That's a camo cat right there. 
Well, even when you do that, 

2618
02:06:37,720 --> 02:06:38,400
it's hard to tell. 
She's. 

2619
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:41,280
There, Yeah, People asked. 
So there you go. 

2620
02:06:41,560 --> 02:06:46,000
I'm glad to see our live viewers
want more cat action, 'cause we 

2621
02:06:46,000 --> 02:06:48,120
do too, if you like it when you 
all remind us. 

2622
02:06:49,080 --> 02:06:52,640
I think the cats like it too. 
They know somehow they know that

2623
02:06:52,640 --> 02:06:54,000
there's a live audience. 
I don't. 

2624
02:06:54,200 --> 02:06:57,080
Know if you can hear her 
purring, they're close to the 

2625
02:06:57,080 --> 02:07:00,440
speaker. 
Cool. 

2626
02:07:01,000 --> 02:07:04,160
Well, everybody, I hope you have
a excellent week. 

2627
02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:07,480
We appreciate you listening and 
being a part of our community. 

2628
02:07:07,960 --> 02:07:14,240
Thanks as well to Michael Clark 
Feld and Joey Townsend and Jesse

2629
02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:16,280
and Bran. 
Everyone who helps us with the 

2630
02:07:17,080 --> 02:07:20,880
music and audio and maps and all
the great stuff that helps make 

2631
02:07:20,880 --> 02:07:25,280
our show look more professional.
We will see you next time and 

2632
02:07:25,280 --> 02:07:28,360
you know what to do until then. 
I say it every time. 

2633
02:07:28,360 --> 02:07:31,920
I'm not going to stop Val R 
Reread us. 

2634
02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:46,680
The.