By now, you're well aware that there are multiple sources on
the dance of the dragons and the era that produced it one of
those sources really stands out, despite his lack of height.
And that's mushroom. His contributions are the, to
the historical record. Are particularly entertaining
and dramatic, because he had a flair for humor paired with
unusually intimate access to the private.
Business of House Targaryen and those closest to them like
house, Hightower how strong, and how solarian, he's a source on
what happened between rhaenyra and Sir, Kristen, he reported on
a lot of the drama between the blacks and greens prior to the
war. This is the person that coined
the nicknames broken bones, the butcher's ball, and the queen
Who Never Was His versions of the stories have to date, been a
major part of house, the dragon. And I'm sure the show Runners
and Riders love to incorporate his version of events when
possible, because is they're often the most Painting, but
they're not always the most accurate, but that's part of
what we're here to talk about today.
We also have a guest who will help us pick that apart, one who
has a lot of real world, understanding and expertise on
real-world sources, particularly from time periods that Westeros
is the most similar to. This is certainly a particular
importance because mushroom frequently, competes with other
sources differing substantially at times, which heightens
mystery and debate. Giving supplementary takes at
other times, which helps us form a larger more complete version
of events. And of course, there are times
were mushroom isn't agreement with other sources, which helps
us gain certainty. As well, we must consider that
though, mushroom. And other sources are cited
often, there are times when no sources are cited.
This is sometimes because they all agree and it would be
repetitive to point that out every single time.
This would also happen. There's only one source because
that also would be repetitive to cite every single time.
We know where mushroom was most of the time.
However, so for example when we hear about doings of rhaenyra
and Damon on Dragonstone just after the break out of the
dance, we can be fairly certain it's coming from.
Because he was the only source to have been witness or
potential witness to what transpired there.
But that doesn't mean he's telling the truth with all these
layers and levels to consider. No wonder we brought in a heavy
hitter of a guest. However, in addition to helping
us sift through all this, she's going to throw us a Twist.
The idea that maybe he didn't exist at all.
That mushroom might be a pseudonym, all that, and more on
this episode of history of Westeros.
Hello and welcome everybody, indeed.
We have our excellent returning guest dr.
Covino. Mood and Finn welcome.
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be back.
Yeah, right on. Yeah, we're gonna have a great
discussion today. You got a huge round of applause
from folks, for the last time you were on and you've been
around the Song of Ice and Fire podcast circuit a bit.
Want you to speak to that for a second.
Yeah, I was on learned hands after the very end of House of
the dragon and we had a great discussion.
About adaptation about historical sources.
Some of the stuff that I'm going to talk about today is related
to things that I talked about on that particular episode, but
it's shouldn't there shouldn't be too much overlap.
There's going to be one or two things, but shouldn't be too
much. Cool.
What is your day job describe that for everybody?
Well, at the moment actually my day job is as a freelance editor
and indexer of academic books, which is a very strange job to
have. But my background is in medieval
and early modern literature and culture.
I work. Primarily on England, but also
on France and Italy. The period that I love.
Most is sort of the 14th 15th 16th century.
Like that kind of 300-year. Clump is just full of hot messes
and drama that I cannot get enough and full of things.
George took inspiration from yeah.
Like big-time. That's a hot spot for for his
informations, for sure. If you're watching live, you can
also see that a Shea is on camera today, and, of course we
have Sean as well. So we got a nice group of for
today. I was like, yeah, I have to show
up For Kavita. So, yeah, right on.
Thanks as well to our friend Nina whose contributions are
always. So, valuable to us this week on
her blog, there's a post that is not to do with Westeros.
It's on the Coburg family of Brussels and it's involves our
friend, Stephen at. Well, who's been a guest?
I think one of the most frequent guests on history of History
Western so that you want to check that out.
Usually writes about A Song of Ice and Fire Stuff.
But she writes about other things as well.
And this is an example of a real world take.
She's also had a recent post on, what if Sansa had received the
Wolfpack speech? Instead of Aria, and how that
may have affected her or not going forward at the time, it
was relevant. This episode was voted on by
patrons next week. We have the battle of the
Trident and the week after that, we have baelor, the blessed with
Nina coming on live, instead of her usual, Bhai excellent
behind-the-scenes work. And if this episode ends and you
want to stammers, we've got you covered with some suggestions
for topics related. To this one will be dropping
names here and there throughout the flow of this one.
Let's get started with our trivia question as usual.
The quote is they cooked it with mushrooms and apples and it
tasted like Triumph. It's the second time mushrooms
appear in the book. The first time is Catelyn and
Sir, Roderick eating at the end of the crossroads, what is it in
this phrase? They cook it with mushrooms and
apples and it tastes like a, what is It.
Hmm, this is the second time we've focused on a source within
the sources. The first being long ago with
septon bars and this is nothing like septon Barth and that just
because one was a court full. The other septon though, that is
a start in describing why they're different.
Looking at how we see historical detail within the story.
Usually, the sources are all mixed together when presented
and though you might get a sense of biases and styles and
attitudes there's nothing quite like focusing on just one set of
takes looking for patterns and drilling it down.
And seeing it that way as a much different look in this case,
it's a often pretty large and frequently humorous set of takes
which is part of why this one is so special and worthy of an
episode and are our guests. So let's get started with who
was mushroom, a dwarf three feet tall with an enormous head and
an enormous member to go with it.
If he is to be believed, mushroom was the Court Jester
and was thought to be a lack with therefore, the worthies of
the Court spoke freely about him.
His testimonial edges, His account of the events of the
years, when he was at court, set down by a scribe, whose name, we
do not know, and it is filled with mushrooms, Tales of plots,
murders, trysts debaucheries and more and all in the most
explicit detail, septon, Eustace has and mushrooms accounts are
often at odds with one another, but at times, there are some
surprising areas of agreement between them.
Hmm, that last line in particular, is going to shit.
We're going to shine a light a light on that today, but also
that line about the nameless scribe that is, would you say
comida? That's part of your theory that
maybe this isn't just one person or isn't who they say they are
at all. Absolutely.
Yes, that's a big part of it. The fact is, I mean, most of the
sources that we get from medieval Europe in particular,
were written down by nameless scribes or at the very least,
even if someone whose name, we know wrote them down originally
they were copied by date with scribes.
And one of the things that I think that We don't have in
Westeros or in essos as far as we know, is the printing press.
So anytime a source is copied you introduce one layer of human
error. So if assuming that the
testimony of mushroom has been copied 5 6 10 12 times, the
version that Fire and Blood is based on or the version of Fire
and Blood is drawing from. Who knows who knows how many
scribes had gotten to it? In the meantime I would assume
there's problems like maybe not in In this context for Westeros,
although maybe George works as Sin and places that that I'm not
thinking of where phrases just change like the word a phrase,
or there's, some meaning behind a certain sentence or turn a
phrase that does it loses, that meaning a hundred years later,
we would not know what that refers to or that it has more
context to it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like Words, change phrases, change languages, change people
get things wrong. Like there's one particular
instance that I am. Okay.
My research assistant. Yeah, she's very cute.
She can come and hang out. So there's one particular
instance that I'm especially fond of talking about, I brought
it up in a couple of the essays that I wrote on House of the
dragon and adaptation where one this actually happened in a
printed Chronicle not even a manuscript one.
So you can imagine how much easier it is in a manuscript
Chronicle when you're writing it out.
But in this particular Chronicle, the number 17 was
accidentally changed to the number 12.
Such that a person who died in battle went from being age, 17
to age 12. That's a huge difference.
Wow, because 17 year old dying in battle in 1460 is tragic but
not entirely out of the ordinary twelve-year-old dying in battle
in 1460, that's noteworthy. Yeah.
And if you read that wrong you might think it was normal.
You might think. Oh twelve-year-old and battle.
Like it's not that hard to mistake that as being.
Oh I guess you. Did you take that?
Their 12 year old man, a loyal. They're not commenting on it
being abnormal, so it must be normal but it's an error.
Not a Yeah. Just they didn't case where they
didn't explain something, that's normal.
Yeah. A 17 year old dying in battle is
tragic. A twelve-year-old dying in
battle is a statistic. It's a rounding error.
That's an outlier. Wait a minute, that's not
supposed to be here. So we'll build our way up to the
full theory of mushroom as we described the more standard Ed
version, but little more setup just the name.
Mushroom is evocative. Of course, most of the time when
that word appears, it's the context of food especially in A
Song of Ice and Fire because the character mushroom isn't
referred to in the main five books, of course he's frequently
referred to in the world of Ice and Fire and fired.
But in fact the word mushroom appears more in Fire and Blood
than it appears in all five of Song of Ice and Fire books
because of this character, of course, I don't actually see
here. Like you, you talk about how its
evocative. Yeah.
But like, we all know what it's evocative like of, right?
I just like when we I looked and I'm like you don't actually say
it but very sexual. It evokes a lot, a lot, it's
actually culture, its food, Boyz, Boyz, tasty food.
Yeah. Lots of stuff.
Yeah, it is a lot of stuff, which I think is appropriate for
this character because he is, there's a lot of ways to
approach it. It like Kavita says there's
suspicions around his identity whether he's telling the truth,
whether why he you know what his reason for not telling the truth
is whether it's just embellish, Minore, poor memory or the fact
that he doesn't exist. Brian says, there's a hundred
kinds of mushrooms down in the greenseers caverns.
That's super evocative right there too.
Even though it's not exactly on topic.
And of course it's tempting to compare cheery into mush, their
Dwarfs with wicked sense of humor, very sexual Hmm, one
could even call mushroom a fun. Go I love it.
She's fire out. Yeah fired I'll show myself.
I would be such a hypocrite but there but there might not
actually be that much more that Tyrion and mushroom have in
common. The stuff is mostly surface
level but we'll maybe will point out a few other things that we
go on. There's a lot of things that
they're really the opposite on and that's more relevant here.
I think because no one like Circe was in spilling her
Secrets around tyrion's you in fact very guarded with them and
Because Tyrion is regarded as cunning and not very trustworthy
by a lot of people mushroom. That's the key to mushroom is
that he was so unfriending that he was around during things that
you would never expect any witness to be around for letting
like he was there when people were like, banging each other,
like why is anyone present for that, you know?
But apparently, you know, he was there so that does that is
interesting if true. So, yeah, maesters stepped Ins
they would never have that kind of access.
It would make them uncomfortable.
Actually, it's particularly on the blacks faction because
that's who he was around the most.
So he has less to say about the green.
Well, he has a lot to say about the greens.
It's just well, we like to take our mushrooms more salted women.
When in that scenario Tyrion would need spies to get the kind
of information that mushroom gets.
You know, in fact, mushroom would have made a killing as a
spy. If he wanted to be one and maybe
he considered that could have, yeah, he could have gotten rich
on that. Maybe that's why he was able to
retire later. Yeah.
Selling his secrets on the side but still those loose tongues
that's the reason why this episode exists.
Why he's so important? Here's a one final example that
I think is important and when we have an actual quote for from
tearing the empty flag and slipped from his hand and rolled
across the yard Tyrion pushed himself off the bench and went
to fetch it. As he did, he saw some mushrooms
growing up from a cracked Paving tile.
I'll hail white, they were with speckles and red ribbed
undersides. Dark is blood.
The dwarf snap, one off and sniffed it, delicious, he
thought and deadly. There were seven of the
mushrooms perhaps the seven were trying to tell him something for
another time. We'd have to discuss.
Why? Look at the symbolism there.
There are seven of them but they look like we're Woods.
Right? So just again, the mutt, the
topic of mushroom is just a bajillion ways that it comes up
in the story, whether Symbol or whether in this case it's poison
he considers taking it himself. Then he has the non poison
mushroom trick from illyrio that comes shortly after this, then
he actually gives them to nurse to kill nurse later.
The point of, this is all these things for most of us, we read
all this before being introduced to the character of mushrooms.
We had all these examples of how George uses mushrooms in the
story. And how that applies to this
character, a couple other examples away from Poison and
things like that. Just the way George uses
mushrooms more generically, here's Vara.
Speaking to Cersei, And the small Council.
Have you ever considered that too?
Many answers are the same as no answers at all.
My informers are not always, is highly places.
We might like when it came dies, fancy Sprout, like mushrooms in
the dark. This is super relevant because
it's about multiple sources and resources in general, right?
Like that's this is the bullseye from Baris here and he goes, on
to list, the various rumors about renly's death.
Now the one thing we can glean from that at the time, we of
course saw it happen. So even if we hadn't, we were
just okay. They all agree that renly's Dad.
The question is just how, and that's a lot of what we see in
Fire and Blood though, certainly not always.
Now, here's another example, that one was virus speaking to
Cersei. Now, here's Cersei speaking to
Sansa just before the battle of the Blackwater, quote, another
lesson, you should learn. If you hope to sit beside my
son, be gentle on a night like this, and you'll have treasons
popping up all about you, like mushrooms after a hard rain, the
only way to keep your people loyal is to make make certain
they fear you more than they do the enemy.
Again, the metaphor are used their mushrooms after hard rain
is set in Fire and Blood several times as well.
So I think George is likes that one or maybe he's decided that
it's a, it's a westerosi saying, what do you think of comedian?
So, mushrooms grow in the dark, they grow after storms.
They grow in secret places. They pop up unexpectedly and
quickly, many of them can kill you.
If you aren't careful and it is not easy to tell the good ones
from the bad ones. I'd say that sounds Pretty close
to our mushroom. Well said.
Yeah, very true. Just supposing that maybe it's
just like a saying in Westeros. I like that more because just
thinking about Cersei who grew up wealthy and casterly rock.
How much experience was she have seeing Mushroom sprout up after
a hard rain? Ha ha, ha.
I mean, like I think that's something she's heard not
witness. So I think it in fact, it's used
elsewhere, I'm going to say, it's a westerosi saying, it is
more like a farmer's saying, yeah, the Unlike some of that
Nobles say yeah, that's a good point.
I like that. Yeah, well said, one of my
favorite examples, it it kind of summarizes all these together.
It basically overlaps, the different topics here, we have
Tyrion being left in the dark. After the battle of Blackwater
is healing and he says my sister thinks I'm a mushroom.
That's a nice little summary of all that.
Okay. So let's get into the historical
mushroom. He was apparently, at court
already. When Damon was named master of
coin in 103, So, he would at least be a teenager by then if
not older. We often do see.
Like hatch face was brought pretty young to Westeros even
though he clearly is a had, a very different Vector for his
development. He was, he was young.
He was a slave mushroom was not a slave.
As far as we know, he was fooled, viserys is court and
possibly even before because my theory is we know, Jerry's was
depressed and we know why there's a lot of tragedies in
his life. Again, they may have been
looking for things to cheer him up, maybe that makes sense.
Is that kind of fit for y'all? Do you have any other ideas for
maybe when he appeared for the first time?
Because that's my best guess. I actually wonder if he came
from Old Town. When Otto Hightower came to
court and became hand of the king to Jerry's.
That's interesting. Yeah, that's a good call.
Couple things here. One hour.
I want to make this clarification that I haven't
actually read Fire and Blood. So I'm trying to stay in so lead
for the second season house. The Dragon As our audience, you
know, we're going to try to avoid spoiling it.
And so if I seem ignorant on something that's why, and that
might show a my question here, how do we know when he first
appeared? We don't we don't.
That's just his first first time he's sighted as appearing.
But that sighting, is that something that he said, that's
the earliest thing that he referenced about himself being
present. That we know of is that yes, I
believe. So he cites himself being there,
being witness, to that, refers to that.
Yeah, so it's just the earliest thing.
He talked about So we assumed he was ostensibly.
It must have been there for that but could have been there for
longer than 4 that could have been could be lying.
Like, that's always if any of these cases there's always the
caveat that it might not be when rhaenyra first left for
Dragonstone in 114 with break bones, mushroom went with her.
That's part of my theory that he was brought more for Jerry's
than viserys because he never really stayed with viserys until
the stairs got sick. There seems to be evidence that
he was with the saris more when his hand.
Problem, which, as you recall, in the book, that was a much
shorter thing and the show was like, the whole seat that was.
His hand was a problem from episode 1 until he died.
Well, eventually don't even have hand, but you know what I mean,
it was still problem. So that was much shorter span.
I was more like a year 126 and apparently mushroom stuck around
and maybe try to cheer him up through his health issues.
But the fact that he left to go with rhaenyra either means he
just got along better with Rainier or he was never really
meant for viserys in the first because there is didn't need
cheering well, maybe in a few spots.
But for the most part you this guy was thrust into We throwing
parties anyway, like mushroom, maybe would have fit into all
that Fire and Blood. It's only mentioned like, it's
mentioned that mushroom at various times capered for the
amusement of King viserys. Princess rhaenyra, and both
aegon's the second and the third there's no mention of Jerry's,
but it doesn't mean that he wasn't there, right?
Is Matt Damon being named master of coin was after this era
system that was one of ya. So I think it might have been
the same here. I think that when the council is
your anyway, it's right around there.
So easily could have been there before.
That's, that's pretty clear though, it's not.
So he's going to what's interesting about him as well,
is that he would outlive pretty much everyone involved here,
which is part of why. I think he may have only been a
teen years because if you add too many more years to him,
you're talking about someone in his 80s or 90s, which is not
impossible by any means, but you know what about him capering
about so much. Yeah, it gets less like, yeah.
And of course, he lives on in a metaphorical sense because he
was a source, right? So I have this question Kavita.
Is there anything in the real world about?
Like a gesture or an unusual Source outside of the normal
historians and academics and things like that.
Well, not that we know of exactly.
But there are kind of a couple of different things that are not
too dissimilar. For instance, we have some
accounts of the favorite Court Jester to King Henry, the 8th of
England whose name was Will Somers.
It's one of the few instances where we actually have a name to
go with this gesture or this figure, but we don't really have
anything that he wrote himself, we don't even necessarily know
that he was literate and Are also of course there and there
are records of different medieval and early modern
monarchs who had attendance. If not necessarily Jesters with
dwarfism that was considered, I mean horribly as it as it was
considered a status symbol but it was a thing that's on record
as having been done in a number of different Royal courts.
Particularly in Spain particularly in France, but
Queen Mary, the first of England whose mother, of course was
Spanish and whose husband was, Spanish, is reported to have had
a dwarf amongst her ladies-in-waiting weaving.
Idea why that became a status symbol.
It just seems so odd. I don't sides of it being, you
know, like you said pretty terrible.
It's just weird. It is a weird thing, but it was,
I mean it's it's pie pops up enough times and sources that it
does seem to have been a thing that people did much like later
on in the course of my p.m. to Annette, she had this entire
Little Village built where she would go and try to be left
alone and pretend to be a shepherdess, which I mean, it's
sort of like 18th Cottage Corps Base, which on the one hand like
that woman has been maligned tremendously in the in after her
death. And I don't know that you
necessarily deserved it but yeah, that is Royals had really
weird Hobbies. I guess this potato, I thought
on that was did, it would be something that's kind of rare
and it shows that your power my must be far-reaching to get to
something that rare. You know, it's unusual.
Like it's that Pete. They I'm Sure.
That there were some monarchs who treated their attendance
better than others, but it was kind of like part of a menagerie
like good. But again, like it's awful but
it kind of is how people were viewed.
Mmm. So we might also say one
commentary about mushroom is that his takes are overly
sexualized but could we argue that takes from septons and
celibate orders, like maesters or under sexualized, or maybe at
least not framed properly or misunderstood?
What do you think about that? I mean, my suspicion is I at
least think that in the case in this particular case looking not
just at mushroom but also a guild Dane who is writing about
mushroom, the Meister celibacy makes them even more likely to
assume a sexual explanation for anything because they assume
that all women and that's women with an asterisk because it be
they could apply this to someone like lane or Volare and they can
apply this to some like anyone who of any gender who is not a
Meister or acceptance are driven by email.
Need for sex and more importantly by an inability to
control themselves. Like, it's this perception from
the mice early class that anyone who is not a Meister is
completely like a slave to their sex drive.
Yeah. Okay.
So maybe they're just like more ignorant of it rather than well
that which is basically said. Yeah.
That makes sense.
Yeah. And and also there's a lot of
that that contributes a lot to his like they don't know how
childbirth Works. They don't know how like if a
Dies in childbirth. They just mentioned it as though
it's nothing. Like know.
There are a lot of there are many many reasons why that could
have happened. Yeah, there's just one death
from childbirth, isn't the isn't the barracks?
Not a debts not a cause of death.
That's a category. There are things that yeah
there's yeah, there's under underlying causes that are much
more detailed and specific and that's where something like the
adaptation of choices that they made in House of the dragon come
in. Because all, we know from Fire
and Blood is Emma are and died in childbirth periods.
They had to choose and the fact that they took Took that and
they made it into this incredible.
Tragic linchpin for the entire season that I think is an
example of how kind of house of the Dragon takes a throwaway
thing in Fire and Blood and expands it not just in terms of
pop, in terms of feet. And that's what mushroom is
accused of doing it. Sometimes, just adding things
here and there, just to make it seem more interesting whether or
not it actually happened. Now, of course with fiction.
You can do that all you want, but we The idea and to talk
about sources and I guess, maybe what I was getting out that
other point is there let may be less likely to include detail to
go into the explicit detail of especially the septums of like
specific sex acts and and all that.
But but they do include it in Fire and Blood because they're
including, mushrooms takes. But I wonder, but they always,
maybe that's part of why they always say.
Well, this is mushroom steak, we wouldn't right quick, swap,
mushroom would say, this is not what we're saying me serious
academics. This is what Oops.
Fire and Blood has this to say about this whole thing.
Whereas stepped in Eustis records, the secrets of
bedchamber and brothel and hushed, condemnatory tones,
mushroom, Delights in the same, and his testimony consists of
little, but ribald tales and gossip piling stabbings
poisonings, betrayals seductions and debaucheries.
One Atop The Other. How much of this can be believed
is a question, the honest historian I cannot hope to
answer, but it is worth noting that King baelor, The Blessed
decreed that every copy of mushrooms, Chronicle should be
burned. Now, that's clearly an example
of a guy that was didn't like sexual content, like, of all
time, he was number one on them. So they were the Blessed.
Had his way. He definitely that in listen to
burn books, clearly, some of them escaped the burning.
That's why the records exist. Now, I don't want to justify
bail or two, Much, but to be fair, it wasn't just sexual
content, right? There was a lot of this stuff
aside from sexual content that paints targaryens in a bad light
so like yeah, extramarital Affairs and sure on and on,
right? So, that's true.
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily just him being like the morality
police about it, like but I do think that was the root of it,
like, I was largely him being around.
If it had just shown the targaryens in a bad light but
never showed any like improper Behavior.
I don't know if I think babe. Our would have targeted it like
that might just be a happy accident.
Well, here's something to consider think of the cynical
angle. When Baylor is announced or
starts burning books. Your you might have certain
people that use him as a vehicle to erase certain knowledge to
say hay. Baler, you should have this one
bird, you know, this is this one's real bad King.
Like look at the find some Pious reason why and then barrels like
yeah throw that one on the burning pile to you know pre
probably wouldn't be that hard to convince on this case.
Yeah. Especially if like Book this 300
Pages. Someone could read one awful
line and no, yes burn that one and he doesn't know was actually
school board book committee where someone had done exactly.
That amount final like three random paragraphs out of a young
adult book and were screaming about it in our local school
districts library and I had to come in and be like no, this
book is actually fine. This person is completely off
the rocker context matters, context matters.
Yeah, I mean that's at work here.
The maesters are quick to point out that this comes from
mushroom but they still include it.
As part of historical record. Mushroom wouldn't have been to
welcome at Baylor's Court. I don't know that he was into
having a fool of any sort, let alone, let alone.
One that talk about, sex all the time.
He wouldn't didn't fit in particular while the egg on the
third either who didn't have those proclivities or much of a
sense of humor, for understandable reasons, but
clearly rhaenyra liked him because she kept him around and
maybe Damon, As well because if Damon didn't like him, he may
have been like, get rid of that guy.
And I don't know if rhaenyra would have argued too hard to
keep him if Damon was unhappy and viserys was clearly happy
with him as well. Even though he stayed around
right nearer the most computer, you have some great notes here.
Take it away on this sub topic. There are plenty of medieval and
early modern monarchs, who tried to ban books or authors who said
things that they just didn't like some were more insistent
than others. But if we're talking
specifically about banning books, the monarchs that I
immediately think of our Tutors. But it's worth keeping in mind
that they were also. The first English monarchs who
had to deal with the printing press on a large scale.
So for instance, under the previous monarchs ever before
with Richard, the third and at least for the first several
years of Henry, the seventh who was technically a tutor, but
didn't call himself that there were only a handful of printers
in the entire country and pretty much all of the worked for the
royal family in some capacity or another.
But fast forward from there, from these sort of late for 15th
century to 1555 on the 13th of June, 1555 Queen Mary, the first
issued an entire list of books that she decided to have banned
because they were quote had seditious and heretical within
the borders of her realm. These were primarily Protestant
taxis were primarily religious texts.
But there's also a couple of weird inclusions such as Halls
Chronicle. Now, Paul's Chronicle refers to
an English history of the 15th century civil wars.
That we now call the wars of the Roses.
Thanks, to the plays written by William Shakespeare, which
happened to be Based on the Chronicles that were bad.
So that's always a good time. But why were they banned one?
Because the author was a vocal Protestant who applied, a very
specific Protestant angle to his history, Kings won battles, not
just because they were preordained but because that
preordination also fit within a much larger progress toward the
end of protestant time which is beyond the scope of today's
discussion. But in any event it's not
actually that surprising that a king would ban history text
especially one that is as full of sort of Scandal and In
raunchiness, as mushrooms, for instance, like baelor, the
Blessed his grandmother was Princess rhaenyra.
So, having all of these things about rhaenyra in a text, who
was his direct, his direct ancestor point that might not
have sat. So well, with this, extremely
Pious Monarch, like, all of these stories about her sleeping
with her Uncle when she was 13 and all of that stuff he didn't
like it whether yeah you're right like that may damage.
It wouldn't have looked it's not good publicity one way or the
other but the Closest analog to the kind of specific kinds of
stories that mushroom house, because that's not what you find
in Halls. Chronicle Halls Chronicle has a
lot of stabbing but not have that particular sort.
So the closest analog the kinds of stories that mushroom likes
to tell isn't historical so much as kind of historical literary.
I have a whole rant about how historical and literary texts
are kind of on the same Continuum but we don't need to
get into that. The relevant takeaway, is that
written history is always, in some sense, a literary text in
that it is taking a series of events and interpreting Them in
a narrative form. But if you're looking for the
kinds of racy exploits that he's talking about in the medieval
and early modern periods, what you want is correspondents
propaganda or boccaccio generic specific or if you want to look
at or you want to look at earlier historians you want to
be looking at the Roman historians with a Byzantine
historian to look at suit odious, who was writing during
the time of Nero or you want to be looking at someone like
procopius who is writing under the emperor.
Justinian In Byzantium. And I have to give a hat to a
Steven at well for reminding me about Rico because I completely
forgot. No, he's popping up all over the
question. What do you think the difference
was? You think it was cultural that
allowed? Those historians to write a bit
more racy topics, you can go just that, that allowed that to
stand the test of time or what? Well, partly, I mean, the Romans
and the byzantines are writing outside the Catholic church.
So that is definitely a part of it, but also like the procopius
is Secret. History was not authorized by
anyone in the Byzantine Empire. It was just mayor and people
read it. And that's why I think the
boccaccio comparison is also kind of an interesting one.
Because boccaccio people don't think of him as a historian
because he really wasn't, but he did write a number of things
that ended up getting folded into histories, whether or not
he necessarily intended to boccaccio's the Colorado and a,
the Cameron is a 14th century collections. 100 stories that
were supposedly collected by a group of board.
Florentine terroristic. Rats were holed up in quarantine
during the black death in the Tuscan Countryside which is a
nice place to be held up during quarantine.
Let me say, I wish I'd been there in Spring of 2012 but
because everyone is bored and either about to embark on an
orgy that we don't hear about or has just finished an orgy.
That we don't hear both of which the Italian film industry has
immortalized all the stories. Cameron are somehow about sex
and this book was banned everywhere.
No one was supposed to read it but everybody read it anywhere.
Now in case, any of you listeners are planning to run
off and read the Decameron, I do want to add a trigger warning,
because boccaccio's, idea of consent is firmly stuck in the
14th century. And as a bonus, he was also a
clergyman with serious misogyny problems.
Yeah, boccaccio was a clergyman. He was a member of the Catholic
church and he wrote this stuff. So let's just say Piatt that
there is a tremendous amount of dubious shit and I'm so dead
Dove whatever. It is these days reader beware.
So as a side note, I think Nina had a note about this as well.
George has never mentioned a westerosi or associate
equivalent to someone like Christine De pizan a woman who
was, who looked at all of these misogynist texts and went guys,
shut up. Let me actually tell you how it
is and wrote a completely different text that is It's
still red and that people actually read at the time and
that people found interesting and that women read me.
No women read it. Like a text that pushes back
against a lot of these misogynist folks.
We don't really see that in Fire and Blood at all right on.
Well said there, let's talk about the last time.
The last brief are aware mushroom was around court before
we get into some of the more specific material.
Here's a another quote, referring to the man on my
shirt. Yeah, uh-huh.
After the Loss of his fingers, the series, the first never sat
upon the Iron Throne again thereafter.
He shunned the throne room referring to hold Court in his
solar and later in his bedchamber surrounded by
maesters septons and his faithful fool mushroom, the only
man who could still make him laugh, she says mushroom.
I'm inclined to believe. I mean, he was funny like that.
I can kind of like it some things he says I'm like I don't
know about that one. Yeah, I can believe that he
could still make the saris laughs.
You know, that's that's my head can.
What about y'all? Yeah, I think maybe viserys
would still laugh at children because children but that like
the grandkids and what not playing like maybe, you know,
maybe that's. Yeah.
I mean that's the thing. He also had a bunch of
grandkids. He also had a bunch of children
and grandchildren at that point. So I feel like watching mushroom
interact with with kids would probably make the saris laugh
and he seems like an easygoing sort of guy anyway and Fire and
Blood. So I imagine he just was Happy
to laugh. Yeah and of course even when on
Dragonstone he would be coming back and forth a lot.
Gibby. Do you have a note here about
how maybe that was lost in the shuffle of the portrayal on TV?
I think it was a little bit. I mean partly, this is it's
completely understandable. Reasons, dragons are expensive
to film and they wanted to sort of save them for climactic
moments and I get that. But one thing that I think House
of the Dragon underplayed was how much time the targaryens
actually. Spent with or on their dragons
because the impression I always had from Fire and Blood is that
rhaenyra in particular was constantly sort of flying
between these different locations, King's Landing drift
bark Dragonstone, even pentose maybe even others of the free
cities. We don't know.
One of the things we don't really get from Fire.
And Blood is, how fast do dragons fly?
How long does it take to get from one location to another?
Because another thing that I confess I have been wondering
ever since I first read And blood was during that 20 year
period, like 15 to 20 year period when viserys was King,
was he sending rhaenyra Oregon or a claim?
And eventually like, was he sending people out to do
diplomacy on dragons? Because we hear about Jerry's
and all the same doing that, but we don't really hear about any
other Targaryen monarchs doing. Us a good point.
The show sort of had viserys downplay that we didn't want to
send Dragon Riders and in that bed, right at beginning of
episode 1, Rainier as As flying or Dragon.
It looks like they're going to show this person who love to
fire dragon a lot. So it was set up.
They didn't really continue with that almost as if one of the
things she lost over time was that freedom that youthfulness
of having time to do that as responsibilities piled up and
then, you know, war and death, good fun stuff.
I also think a lot about logistics especially in like
fantasy environments and like the idea of the different ways
dragons could have should have been used.
Just helping clear paths for roads to be built, you know,
just like a straight blaze of fire to clear, forest or
transferring information back and forth.
And I could see reasons why maybe that's not as spectacular
of a story to tell or why maybe even the who had dragons
wouldn't lower themselves to those types of tasks but it's
the ability to get Battlefield information back and forth
across the ocean. It's possible that it is part of
where the power of the The rains and the targaryens came from
even we don't see it on paper and it might be part of why
their power starts to weigh in with the dragons go away, not
just a military might but the ability to transfer information
and materials people back and forth to me, it's like this
underlying story. This is hidden element that we
don't see kind of like when you have armies gathered, where is
everyone pooping? That we just don't get shown,
but it has to be dealt with see how Targaryen who, you know,
strikes out on their own with their dragon and starts.
A landscaping was to be a little more, utilitarian has something
to start a business with it's called fire escaping, escaping.
That's the thing. Like, I could totally see that
having been a big part of how the kingsroad got built.
Like, if you have a bunch of dragons and you have a giant
forest and you need to blaze a path through the forest, you
could literally blaze a path through the forest and he's fine
where the road should go. Like, look from above and get a
yeah. Like, there are so many creative
brownies from that. Make us tackle ways for them to
use dragons because I'm imagining sort of like pipe it
because one thing we definitely get and I can't remember if this
is just in the show or if this also appears in Fire and Blood
but it is specified that dragons.
Do in fact travel faster than Ravens.
So when you talk about the spread of information I said, if
you need to get a message from King's Landing to Winterfell and
you want it to be secret and you wanted to get there fast.
What you do is you give the message to a dragon rider have
them fly way high up so no one can see them land in Winterfell.
By the time people figure out there there, they've already
delivered their message. Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah, absolutely. I like it.
So, what do we think of mushroom ever rode a dragon?
Ha, ha. Good question.
I don't know. I feel like he'd have mentioned
it if he had. Yeah, it's a good.
A point. Yeah, that's a really good
point. I want my my head Canon, he had
if he was like this sex with a dragon, a dragon and that simply
wasn't one of the things in the testimony of mushroom that they
chose fruit. Like includes is important to
them. That is a really good point.
We're not getting the testimony of mushroom.
We are getting the excerpts from the testimony of mushroom that
gilding Decided to include. That's actually a really
important thing to remember what but for my purposes of this
entire discussion which if Gil Dane had any instruction or
awareness of what targets we want, maybe he would leave that
out because it down plays the power of the targaryens.
But if I wrote a dragon it would be like a period like ever since
I wrote like and then we're narrow went to court and I wrote
a dragon at one time Damon said daughter Donna and I wrote a
dragon. I want to make sure everyone
knew. There's like that.
So you can write down all the dragons.
II wrote on cracks. He's, I wrote on Cyrax, I wrote
a name? The mute one?
Oh yeah, he named them. So, speaking of theories about
mushroom, let's talk about this theory.
About mushroom. Specifically, one of the best
reasons to question the accounts of mushroom, or the identity of
mushroom begins with the fact that like we just said it, he
didn't write it. You already have this degree of
separation which enables the potential that well, this person
that actually wrote down was inserting their own Ideas here,
and there on purpose or by accident or entirely that is,
perhaps Theory can go that far and the fact that we already
discussed that this author isn't even name.
So, as you say that's not too unusual, but it certainly
doesn't remove any mystery, take it away.
So, I am going to make medieval a stroll in their graves by
comparing mushroom to March recap, because this is how I
roll. So, Mark Tori, Kemp was a woman
who lived a fairly unremarkable. Middle-class life in King's
Lynn, which is a mid-sized city in England in the early 15th
century until at least, after giving birth to her 14th child.
And please let us. This is unremarkable for that
period. Yes.
Okay, I'm shutter Marjorie had a vision of the Virgin Mary due to
partly due to postpartum depression and rebranded herself
as a Mystic. Her life thereafter is actually
very remarkable and the only reason that we know about it is
that Hired a scribe to write it down.
Many, many years later because she herself was illiterate.
She never learned how to read, but she was nonetheless, going
around. She went on pilgrimage to
Jerusalem, she went all over your, she went to Santiago de
Compostela, she traveled on her own, which is unheard of for a
woman of her status, but she did it.
She did it because she was like, you know, God told me to do it.
And everyone just around her, just said, okay I guess God
pulled. God told you to do that.
So go ahead. Good luck.
Except for the ones who Said she was a heretic and tried to burn
her at the stake, which is a whole separate thing.
But the resulting manuscript that she produced after several
tries, she actually mentions that she tried to get it written
down once. But the Scribe did a really bad
job? I'm not sure how she figured
that out but described it a poor job so she fired him and found a
new one. But the resulting manuscript was
after several centuries printed and published as the book of
Margery Kemp and is generally regarded as the first
autobiography written in English.
I have taught it three times and all three times I had Least one
student asked me if she ingested magic mushroom.
So far as I know. The answer is no, but they
always ask and I always have to say, I'm pretty sure she did not
ingest magical. Now, one of my favorite essays
on Marjorie Kemp actually reads her work as a kind of fan
fiction, and I encourage everyone to read it.
It's a wonderful essay written by Anna Wilson.
And we can link it in the show. I'll put it in the live stream
chat for you all as well. Lovely, but on the flip side, we
have a Oracle Chronicle from the late 15th century that has
generally been referred to by the name of the monastery, where
it was found when this, when some historians stumbled on it,
in the 18th century and decided, it might be useful for the
current flame War over rather Richard.
The third was a villain or just a nice man.
This flavor has been happening for a really long time.
It was happening in the 18th century.
It is still going on much like the Shakespeare authorship
circus that I refuse to dignify by calling it a controversial.
But again, outside the scope of today's talk, The so-called
second continuation of the Kroll and Chronicle which is a great
name was almost certainly written by a member of Edward
the fourths privy Council which is kind of the equivalent of the
small Council of Westeros. It provides an intimate view of
the death of King Edward and the subsequent attempts to seize
power from his teenage son that ultimately led to Edwards
younger brother. Richard the third usurping, the
throne, the author claims to have written the entire history.
Over a period of several weeks in the year 1485.
And it was quiet. We incorporated into the
official Chronicle of Kroll, and Abby, but we do not actually
know who wrote it. The top candidate is Bishop.
John Russell, who was an educated man, he may or may not
have also been described in addition to the author, but this
particular history includes multiple incidents
interpretations and elements that do not appear in any other
contemporary sources, including my personal favorite which is
the story of the future. Richard III's wife, lady, Anne
Neville being hidden in a London cookshop by her brother-in-law.
George of Clarence. Assumably, so Richard could not
find her and marry her. It's a great story, I love it
but it has no other corroboration anywhere else.
Wow. But so many of the other things
in the Kroll and Chronicle do seem to be accurate.
So it may well have happened in one form or another which is all
to say that mushroom might not have existed at all.
And that the testimony of mushroom as a text might have
been written by someone or someone's under a pseudonym
right on. Okay, Sean I see you have a
couple questions here. Let's go.
To those. This is there's a lot here.
Well it's let's see if we can break some of that down.
You get, I've forgotten more questions than I have, but one
thing I wanted to bring up is isn't Socrates.
There's some question as to whether he was even a real
person, righty. It could just be the his stories
and teachings were a story that became the writings of Plato or
Aristotle or whatever. And that his story actually is
hard to prove. I thought that was a pretty
clever Fringe Theory because he's a testament of him being in
certain battles here. Okay, okay, maybe it is French
but But it's so lonely. I hear something it's hard for
us to know the truth of right? Wait that so I think this is a
kind of sort of game of telephone version of an actual
Theory that's out there. This isn't so much.
A theory as this weird medieval thing that happens supposedly in
the medieval period. There were loads of copies of a
text that supposedly was Aristotle's, advice to Alexander
the Great. It was called The Sacred to
Sacred Torah. More The Secret Of Secrets we do
Do not know that, it was actually really written by
Aristotle or really written to Alexander the Great.
But it was basically just a collection of advice for rulers.
It was the original one of the original kind of mirrors for
princes and it probably had stuff that was from Aristotle.
Probably had stuff that was from Socrates, from Cicero, from
late, like, all of this stuff kind of muddled together, but
whoever put it together decided that they would get more
Authority by claiming the entire thing was written by our stomach
sense. Yeah.
So boosted We see similar things happening in other texts.
Like, for instance, editing a book right now, that talks a lot
about Geoffrey of Monmouth Geoffrey of Monmouth was a 12th
century historian writing in England.
He is one of the earliest sources we have for King Arthur
but the fact, is he claims to be basing his text on an old
British book, no title, no author, no further information,
just an old British book, who knows, was it?
Real is Jeffrey making it all up with.
Getting it from oral sources, like we have no idea where he
was getting his information. One thing when you're trying to
figure out where the historical texts come from is you look for
corroboration someone said something.
Well, it's a new world, say the same thing, or is it just them?
And I'm thinking for mushroom, there's got to be some pieces of
that, right? There's some things that we kind
of know, were true but other things only.
He said, there's a lot of reasons to believe that it might
have been someone else writing it or some collection of
writings. So, that makes me wonder who
might have done that. Is there, is there a candidate
for who? We think mushroom might have
been or who the person who collected, the, if it was like
multiple different people at different time, periods.
All getting lumped into this mushroom character.
Who would have done? That one thing is there someone
that we suspect her have a candidate to have been that
person or the original whatever, you know, I know who I would
like it to be, I wanted to be Laris strong.
Like I would love it if at least some portion of it was like
lares just writing down stuff. We know he knew a whole lot.
New Downs of city had to have been keeping track of his
information somehow. Yeah you don't just keep all of
that in your head away to explain.
Some of this knowledge would be listening through the walls
rather than being in the room as well.
So that that is the connect. That's another reason why he
would fit whether there's, there's no direct evidence as
you say, that's what you want. Like say it's he wanted to
because we can't all speculation but I like I would have loved it
if it were that or in the alternative maybe it was Otto
Hightower secret free on auto Hightower writing his burn book
for remember which I guess brings up another question.
What are the motivations to conceal?
The author in the fur either? Maybe Sean was going to ask
genda. Yeah, yeah yeah.
Someone who could possibly have gotten this information.
You need to have someone who was willing to take Innovation to
write this information down and someone who would want to be
secret or someone else who would have wanted them to be kept
secret or whatever? So and Lars seems like he could
fit all those Auto maybe could fit all those one.
Take care. By the way, from brandalynn
price in the chat, I thought making him a dwarf was a sort of
play on the small folk being behind it.
The idea that Small full who did those interests lie like that
even things? We know in terms of real world
examples, given how much time this account covers, given how
many different contradictory details are in there.
It may also have just been pulled together over time.
It may well have been like a bunch of different individual
accounts that were then compiled into a single book and
eventually sort of circulated as a single text.
I've thought a lot about that. To, but it could have been.
I mean, for the Bible kind of fits that except it was over
hundreds of years, this couldn't have been over more than a
decade or two, right? Because it was Baylor, was only
like a generation later burning this book.
So it had to have been put together in a relatively short
period of time. But I would also say that we
don't what we see in Fire and Blood what was taken for
anything in Fire and Blood could have been added.
Yes, decades later not within that.
Dang it, that's true. Whatever.
Sure did right. What people later on, right
about what he wrote could be even more like added on we also
with meaningfully or not. We also don't have Version
Control. Like if someone is given a copy
of testimony of mushroom, after the era of Baylor's burning, it
could be edited from the original and they wouldn't know.
Yes, it's the only copy translated that's the other
thing you could have like a Google translate effect going.
It was printed if it's not printed but if it was copied in
essos, maybe it was written in Valyrian if it got copied Back
into the westerosi comment. Like it's there are so many ways
because because you're dealing with the preprint era.
So to speak, there are so many ways for that text to get
altered and no one to have any idea that it has happened.
I had one other thought I'm not knowledgeable enough about the
details to call this a theory, even, but just an idea, I wonder
if mushroom could have been Like the dread pirate Roberts.
It could have been different people over time.
The dread pirate, could have been in two places.
At the same time it was like a role if they're in some costume
and makeup and are just a role and not one person.
But roll this being played, is that a possibility for this
mushroom character? And could that also explain how
sometimes he knows things, he shouldn't?
Because he wasn't there? Well, maybe he was there, if it
was probably not the physical and because he's three feet tall
and all that might be hard to. Yeah, probably not physically.
But if we assume like because think about varus for instance
think about varus in the original series.
He is also extremely non-threatening at least in
terms of physical presence, but he knows everything not because
of not necessarily because of things he himself overhears but
because he has this enormous network of spies.
One of the the other thing you could think about in terms of
mushroom is he's not necessarily the person who is witnessing all
of these things, but he is the person who is gathering all of
this information. Nation okay.
Yeah, we're as he mentioned earlier like hearing things with
the walls. He might get stories from the
kingsguard like King's guards standing they hear something and
they might not even tell mushroom.
They just might talk to each other about it.
But mushroom over here is it they under plan?
They don't even notice the opening there.
Yeah. Yeah.
I still want to I'm holding out for the potential twin doors.
Pretend that there are real pills.
Oh my God. But yeah, in terms of kind of
real world examples for this there, I know there's the I keep
coming back to Richard the third but it's a great example because
there's so much kind of mess around it and so much ambiguity.
So there's another account this is written by an Italian.
It's written in Latin. It's addressed to a bishop who
lives in Paris, and it's incredibly important because he
was this guy was physically and he was physically present in
London at the time when this usurpation took face.
So he could have been present for any number of the things
that actually happened. But he doesn't have any close
connections to the royal family. So a lot of what he's reporting
may actually have been rumors rather than a factual events.
He also admits at several points that his English is not very
good, which is not surprising for an Italian cleric who was
writing in Latin who had mostly have been either speaking in
Latin or speaking. In Italian, again with the
testimony of mushroom. What we might be dealing with is
a text that was sort of pulled together.
From a bunch of different sources.
It could even have been sort of mushroom writing down things he
heard and eventually deciding at the end of his life.
Oh, I think I'll just sort of pull all this stuff together.
It may not even have been stuff that he personally knew about.
It was just stuff that he heard. Hmm.
I want to point out just because it's a rumor, doesn't mean it's
not true, it's not true. So again though, I guess there's
certain ones where we can look and say, okay, this this makes
sense as a Why would be said to weaken the lineage of rhaenyra
or Damon or that or the blacks general?
What what are some of the maybe specific things that would tie
this to maybe Auto or Lawry's? If you can think of any angles
to it or even if you have specific examples that would be
good or to troubleshoot the theory, anything that would
remove the possibility of being laros or Auto?
Sure. Well, I mean, obviously, the big
thing that the big Point against either Lara's or Auto Hightower
is that they I died before the narrative ends.
That's true, so that's important.
I dread pirate Roberts is there and also be just the general
multiple authors theory that maybe they were responsible for
some of it but not all of it. Yeah, because my, as you said
mushroom, not only out lives pretty much everyone, he
outlives them by a long time. Mikey Outlet, does he out?
He lives beyond the reign of Baal or even which is like yeah,
like 40 years after the dance for 30 years after the dance
world. Rana Baylor, begins 30 years
after dance and ends 40 years after.
Yeah. So really, it's hard to imagine,
like, even if one person did live that long, which they could
have, it's absolutely possible for someone to live that long.
But it's also just as possible that he was that whoever it was
that compiled, all of these things together whether or not
it was mushroom. The person might have just been
collecting all of these different pieces of information
in. Like there were what are called
Commonplace books in this period.
And what a commonplace book was was essentially.
People would find bits of texts that they found compelling and
bear for various reasons, whether it was for religious
reasons, moral reasons, what have you and they would just
write them down in excerpt form in these books.
And so, you'll find these books that have poems and Snippets of
Chronicles, and bits of Cicero and just no real.
Rhyme or Reason for what. I all these texts are put
together but One. Fouled them interesting.
Someone put him in a category that we can't discern.
Yeah, it was like a journal. Yeah.
Oh yeah. I've got looks like that.
Let me correct myself real quick.
We don't know that mushroom lived through the reign of Baal
or we know he outlived egg on the third who died, only four
years before the reign of Baal or began.
So he probably was at least alive during the reign of
Baylor. He may not have made it all the
way through maybe hearing it. His book was burned as what he
he gave, he died after his ago. My heart my book.
I've been burned. The copies except for one.
Yeah. Yeah.
So speaking of that, you mentioned that one possibility
for the book surviving is that? Yeah, there were copies that
went over seats that and then they just made their way back
like Baylor couldn't have gotten his hands on those and probably
wouldn't have gone into that much effort to find them, you
know, maybe some of the others, like the Jade compendium or
something like that. You might have cared more about
that but I'm guessing. Mushroom wasn't His Highest
priority, but maybe it Like we said, if it was about protecting
certain family images, maybe I maybe he did care, maybe he was
really embarrassed by his grandmother or is Grandparents
or any of those those who came before him.
He certainly was a different sort.
Let's see, I guess we can take our break here.
We've got a few questions. Let's take these questions and
say hello to our sponsor. Then we'll get back with the
little more specific takes from the testimony of mushroom, as
well as what will have saved for the end.
And which is his best funniest moments is quips and have some
good fun with that. Wisdom of mushroom?
Yes, exactly. A couple of from a jazz
holgersson do not forget the Irish wristwatch.
Okay. Yeah.
It has been a little while since we've done the Irish wristwatch.
Are you prepared for this? I'll give it a try.
Okay? If said three times in a row 13
times 5 Watch Irish wristwatch. Irish wristwatch.
Hey. Very good.
Yes, that theater training better than me better than you
do it. Sean!
Come on! Irish wristwatch!
Irish wristwatch, Irish wristwatch, Irish rushed to that
first time. Going to slow.
Yeah, no, actually, I'll for out.
Is easier to Irish wristwatch. Irish wristwatch.
OK, Myra.
She's been practicing. Irish wristwatch.
Ouch Irish wristwatch.
Hey that's good. Great I think.
Okay, thank you for that. We're too good to get the proper
humor out of. Yeah we failed by getting it
right mr. Ho yo te says who's your
favorite plantagenet King dr. Evita oh tough call.
Oh my goodness. They're all like, it depends on.
Who is my fate? Like if you want to know who my
favorite trade wreck plantagenet King is or who my favorite.
Like I think they were actually, okay.
Plantagenet A lot of questions. Like who's the most interesting?
It was like, the most, like, likable, like the money.
I like the most. I mean, one of my favorites to
read up my food, probably, one of my favorites to read about is
Edward the Fourth because he was, he had so much potential
and it all just went out the window.
What key started off and he was all like, he was doing really,
really well. And then he had the dubious
distinction of being the only English Monarch to get Kicked
out of his kingdom and then come back and then rule for another
15 years or not 15 years, 13 years only to die of, presumably
some combination of alcoholism and just who knows what hardly.
But he yeah, he's the Robert Baratheon kind of King except
that he was reasonably. Good administratively at least
up to a point and he gets extra points for being a patron of
William caxton. The first, the first guy to open
a printing, press in England. Nice.
Yeah, he's probably one of my favorites to read about just
because his life is Stranger Than Fiction, like everything
that happens to him. Is completely unbelievable.
You do not like you. Look at that.
You're like, what, why? How are you real?
But he was, and it's very bizarre.
And I feel like he got short shrift from Shakespeare because
Shakespeare wanted to write about his younger brother.
Stupid Minotaur says, have you seen the invisible mushroom
theory that mushroom is in the show but he's overlooked.
My theory was that. He's just off camera.
He's just too short and yeah, I'd see him.
But he's just always off camera which had at the very very end.
They're going to turn around. It'll be, it was me, it is
fitting given that he's, he is kind of overlooked and or maybe
didn't exist. So I kind of like the thing Left
it open. He could be just below the lower
end of what the camera is picking up, or behind a door,
listening, or behind the table or behind the behind Chris.
He's always right behind criston, Cole.
You just can't. Hey, it's the ape is really
flowing. Yeah, Tristan Cole's the twins
twin. It's mushrooms.
A pair of comments here from dornish Dame.
And Julie, a who said, first orange name, certainly, the
targaryens would have had a lot of servants, who might not be
literate, but could have had their stories transcribed and
servants here a lot. And then Julie agreed and said
that, this does seem like the gossip of domestic staff and
multiple people reporting and transcribing.
All could mean that mushroom did exist.
But it was also well, I mean, it could be both.
I could be the, yes, there was no mushroom.
Mushroom is just the staff or it could be that mushroom was one
of many people who were serving like that is what mushroom was.
He was effectively a servant with in there, right?
Maybe gossip with all the others and got all this info and then,
yeah, he was the source for it. Yeah.
Or again, and again, not to like bring up the lhari strong.
Feel like even if mushroom was real, there could be that
mushroom reported to Lori's and Lori's compiled, a bunch of
mushrooms, thoughts and a bunch of it like or Lars use them as a
cat's paws like this. He's like, there's a way to
yeah. Voice it on someone else,
they're not all mutually expensive.
As my, yes, the more, I think about it.
I think it probably is a collection of multiple people
stories, including mushrooms and whoever put the collection
together, which also might have been multiple people, put it all
under mushrooms name because he's someone, it wouldn't be
gone after right? That people like, you know, they
wouldn't think he had some Sinister intent.
A Sonet. People would believe could have
been present, would have this knowledge, Etc, etc' Zoo
scapegoats. Quite the right word but yeah.
Ever, you know, cover story like Horace doesn't want to get his
spies caught so he's not going to use their names.
He doesn't want to get this staff in trouble.
He doesn't, you know, he doesn't want to implicate certain people
or limit his ability to use his spies.
So yeah, mushroom did it. Yeah, this is a sense.
Since some were mushroom makes it easier to believe this.
Mushroom would have been president for these things, it's
on and on. Yeah, I'm getting more and more
certain I like when I do re-firing below, we plan on
doing a read of be read for you guys and obviously, you mean,
it's definitely To be like on the top of my brain, as I go
through I'm going to be on mushroom watch.
Yeah, of mushroom. My whole brain to be on mushroom
line because I like my most recent reread of Fire and Blood
which was right before House of the Dragon came out because I
was kind of curious to see what they were doing.
My most recent reread, I just kept looking for references to
mushroom that were not made by mushroom himself and I did not
find any. Hmm.
Yeah. I never, I never used to serve
anyone who was like and then, man, then And mushroom was
observed to do that. Yeah.
It was all yeah. Shrooms that mushroom did this.
He did this and that it would make sense if you still had
mentioned mushroom. It also makes sense that he
didn't and of course used as couldn't refer to the testimony
of mushroom because the testimony of mushroom was
written was not well later than used as his accountant useless
would have been and like that Eustace might have mentioned
Mushroom in a section of the text that we don't get.
We are getting excerpts from both gildea and and from both
Eustace and mushroom through Gil Dane Means that there are entire
sections of the text that we cannot see.
I wonder how George would react to being that having that
question. Put games did much is our
chance, mushroom wasn't a real person.
Yeah, I think I really want someone.
I will tell you that I will absolutely at the next Q&A.
Ask him that question, but it has to be phrased.
Exactly, right. Figure out a good for has to be
the perfect phrasing because he'll you.
Yeah. You know you've listened to many
qas over. He's real wildly with it.
Yeah, it was great. I mean I had a good for him but
like yeah we definitely got to be real clear.
Here, with what we're asking. I hope it's a left-field enough
question. He's like, what what?
Yeah. Yeah.
And you would, hey, why are you thinking then?
That would pretty much kill the idea that we would, at least
know that. Yeah.
But sometimes you might be like, what?
Why? But then he might still do the
thing where he's strokes and do some Q&A questions actually.
Because that would be very proud if this man if somehow this
Collective managed to inspire George to the side.
If you got some chin Strokes out of it, I can very proud.
I want to put that on my resume so fire it.
George armor. I got George r.r., Martin,
stroke his job. All right with that.
Lets you know, go ahead. Try to say real quick.
We have a friend who made this very extensive thorough timeline
of the. Oh yeah.
Alex and he brought it to ice and fire kind of like unfold.
It's like I don't know 10 or 15 feet long.
Long, you know, like it's like 3 feet by 20 feet or something.
But anyway, I want to get him to make a timeline of mushrooms,
all the times, he was supposedly present for all the people who
would have reference him, who can suss something out from a
visual extended timeline galaxies are out there.
Listening also, I should give a shout out.
One of our Twitter followers of Lana Del Rey Nira recommended I
add a blue phoria Urban mate. He to my usual.
Mix of blueberry, bang and protein, Naked drink and such.
So I just wanted to let you know, I did it and it's good.
I tried to drink our mate is caught as a coffee substitute
for a while, but it's just not strong enough but it is
healthier. I think, well, maybe no.
I'm, I just finished my third cough.
Yeah, I'm, I'm working on 12. I usually make it at home, but I
had to drop someone at the airport, so you know, be it's
pure sugar. This is not coffee.
At all. It's just it's just basically my
morning milkshake that I've got. That's a greater sugars.
Are no chocolate in it, that's chocolate, but that mean, it's
okay. Okay.
There you go. Yeah, I'd mocha yesterday.
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oh, they're a little wider right on?
Yeah, it's anyway, let's move on to the actual testimony of
mushroom. Here's a good example of one
particular passage from it that will kick off this next set of
discussions. It was only a few mins later it.
Damon was exiled. As for the reason, our sources
differ greatly some, such as ruin sitter and Monken.
Suggest the king viserys and Kingdom and quarreled for
Brotherly. Love, rarely stands in the way
of disagreements. That is why Damon left of the
say that it was Allison at Serratos prompting, possibly Who
convinced viserys the Damon must leave but to speak more fully on
the matter ceptin. Eustace has the reign of King
bucerias, first of his name and the dance of dragons that came
after was written by the septon after the war came to its in.
So dry and ponderous in his writings use, this was clearly a
confidant of the targaryens and speaks accurately of many things
mushrooms. The testimony of mushroom is
another matter. How So the first part is a good
example where we have a lot of sources weighing in, and that's
just interesting all together. When we have something that's
corroborated by a bunch of different sources that by
itself, makes it really interesting.
Mushroom was not a confidant so much as he was someone whom they
didn't mind talking around. Like, he just heard things
supposedly and also perhaps someone who embellish quite a
bit, but this is a, why not both something we're going to, we've
been running into a lot already and we're going to continue to
run in through where it could be a made-up.
It could be. Supplementary.
Like we hear two things that don't actually contradict each
other, but neither corroborates, the other both could be true.
So we have a lot of why not both examples coming up here.
Mushroom has access that the septons and Masters don't
necessarily have. But he also has reasons to
embellish because he's an Entertainer, he's a Corfu, like
his job. His attitude towards life is to
entertain and make people laugh. But wouldn't it?
Also be true Kavita that historical records have arguably
even more pressures. To be dishonest or to protect
deeper darker Secrets, something that like will this entertain?
Is I think a lot less corrupt than who is this going to harm
or am I going to die? If I write this and again it's
one of those where could be both because history depending on the
kind of historical account you're reading.
It was also intended for entertainment.
I mean Shakespeare claims Is that a number of historical?
Monarchs were sleeping around when they may, or may not have
actually been doing that. And that was in a stage play
which was obviously not academic history.
But the pervasiveness of the stories that come out of
Shakespeare's history plays, you can't deny that people thought,
Richard the third was a hunchback for many many years
before it was actually proven. He had scoliosis.
Wow. So that's so which is you could
see where that came was an exaggeration of the truth and
embellishment rather than strict act or even and Understanding
okay. Yeah maybe maybe an honest
misunderstanding. Except that in that all the
historians that oh he's a hunchback and automatically that
makes them evil. So there you go.
Yeah, the old tropes, they have tropes mix into which is part of
what you're saying, like, even history has tropes, which is
part of where your come. When you say, well, it's meant
to entertain or it's meant to be an entertaining, which that's
something that really resonates with me.
Because I love reading history, I do find it entertaining, so,
that's like a bad point. This is very straightforward and
In a lot of ways. Basically 16th century
historians use literary tropes was my PhD thesis.
Wow. In a nutshell, you know, this
one particularly well, it's like they used literary tropes to
talk about women because they didn't know how to talk about
with. Like one of the most common ones
is perhaps the evil stepmother Trope, which we see that's like
that one's super old and it George uses it.
I mean, alicent is the evil stepmother, in a lot of ways in
Fire and Blood less. So, and how's the dragon?
Because General, she's not that evil, maybe and much younger.
So, she doesn't really fill the Trope in that regard either.
Again, I haven't read Fire and Blood, but just trying to
clarify or be fair about the state of things is George using
that Trope or is mushroom. And your he's I think he's
having them his characters to it, but otherwise.
Yeah, it's the the layer it's talking about Fire and Blood is
complicated because on the one hand, if you're talking about it
in the out of universe sent, George is the author.
He's He's the only author and what he's doing within the
universe is trying to create this multi vocal text which is
actually very difficult to do. And I find that one of the
reasons why I really love Fire and Blood.
Despite the many, many, many frustrations I have with it, is
the fact that he's trying to do this this is fun from this
University. Yeah absolutely it's like this
is fun for me. I wanted to bring that up is
because it does Work has a lot of influence and house the
dragon to show and Alison isn't being presented as an evil
stepmother there. And I understand right.
Fire blood is coming from multiple different perspectives.
Again not that there isn't this evil stepmother Trope.
There isn't part of what's going on here but I do feel it's more.
The historians in Martin's world just like historians in a real
world using the evil stepmother Trope.
Yeah. The other thing to keep in mind
is that the age difference between alicetin rhaenyra, even
in Fire and Blood is not that big.
It's like A nine-year age difference, that's the
difference between an elementary Schooler and a college student.
So yes, evil stepmother but also they are still kind of peers in
a vet just on the very very edge of being peer.
Yeah. So like the different, the age
difference between rhaenyra and Allison.
Just for instance, the same age difference between me and my
brother were eight years apart. So for a long time probably yes.
Rhaenyra was a child and alicent was much older.
And mature and sort of living the life of an adult.
And so, her marrying viserys under those circumstances would
have been less obviously, egregious than what happens on
the show, where she's his daughter's friend, and the two
of them are contemporaries, and it's implied that there about
save age. So, that's just a big that's
just flat-out change in some way, Sean.
So that's something to keep in mind as they age change was part
and the making them friends is completely not in Fireball.
That's not just a different interpretation.
That's just a flat-out change. Yeah.
There's some of these other things do pain, that category.
One of the interesting things with Fire and Blood because
again, we're getting sort of Snippets of Eustace and room
kind of strung together by Gil Bates commentary.
We don't actually know how long how the relationship between
rhaenyra and Allison went from what was at the beginning.
Supposedly like, okay, to just absolute disaster, we know that
it happened over a period of several years.
We also know that there were these Long periods of time where
nothing really happened or at least, there was no, like,
obvious tension between them. So it's also entirely possible
much like what happens during a lot of medieval civil wars.
That there was violence, was kind of a punctuation, but
mostly it with these long periods of either peace or just
people being on good behavior. Hmm.
Okay. Right on Let's talk about some
of his best /, worst /, biggest claim, some of these are really
wild, some of these are really funny.
Some of these are possible, some of these are possible in the
book and not so much the show, but we'll keep that in mind and
as we go through them individually.
All right? Let's start, Sean somebody's
gonna be really wild you. I think, particularly Alison, 10
viserys started sleeping together before Emma's death.
So having only seen the show Sean, you're probably like,
what? That's doesn't seem possible to
obviously things are different in the The show in the book,
she's 9 years older, you don't necessarily have this
relationship between viserys and Emma.
That runs really deep that isn't necessarily as implied or even
stated at all. So it's a lot more believable,
even if it is not necessarily believable, it's also an
indication. It may be someone who wants to
discredit the stars for Alison to whoever might have started
this rumor, whatever. Yeah, it discredits.
Both of us, really? Yes, speaks to, I mean we're
talking about mushrooms agenda. And who he's anti and who he's
Pro. Well, that is.
This doesn't make Allison or viserys left foot.
Yeah. So this seems like something
that Otto would not cause it doesn't know what he's doing is
he's throwing some red herrings in there to throw off the scent.
Yeah, you know, I mean more, which I'm less.
This is something that was added much much later.
Okay. Yeah.
Also mushroom suggested, Allison performed a services for the Old
King, which is. Mmm.
Yeah, Not likely needing us do well on that one.
Yeah. Doesn't it Allison.
Hope that rhaenyra would die in childbirth.
That's when visenya was born so that mushroom was not there for
that. Mushroom was there for his
Enya's birth though and he claims to have carried the
deceased infant to the yard for burning which is implies a
weird. Very, why would Rainier have him
do that? Like it seems.
So very unknown. On the undignified is right word
like the fool. Carries your tragically dead
daughter at the scene, right? Yeah it seems odd.
It's a complete opposite of Performing Services, Virgil
Harris, but also very not believable but it is perhaps
believable. That Allison said that line but
mushroom not being there. Really throws that into
question. Like you directly quoting
someone that when you were at it.
Not in their location. Is already kind of a tough.
Sell, I wonder if it does line up with the idea that it's a
story of a small folk or A servant that just got lumped
into mushroom and all these different stories are all
mushrooms stories and it's a good point, if it's in that
bucket very well Sean, you're right that one, you're
absolutely right. Because there could have been
any number of servants around heard Alison.
Say maybe the may have, what's the actual line is mayhaps?
The horrible died in childbed or something like something.
Awful. Like that.
Yeah. I mean, obviously given the
state of their relationship at that point.
It is a believable thing for her to have said under those
circumstances. Yeah, I guess again.
Remember that Alison. I mean, I have to A Jeanette,
what we saw in the show with Alice that being so just
disgusted and horrified by Rainier as willful flouting of
decency. Like yeah, she she did think of
her and those terms. Yeah.
She did think of it. Yeah, you're totally right.
Oh, she ABS. I mean, I'm and without that
kind of closeness that the show implied as having been between
rhaenyra and Allison beforehand, not having that necessarily and
imagining Allison to sort of this almost older sister figure.
You can kind of see how like she watched this little girl grow up
into someone that she completely disapproved of.
Yeah, yes, yes, that is very triage completely is approved.
I mean, you see that? That is in the show, that is
carried over as well. It's some of the details are
different but it's the same bottom line, some related ones
here. He's mushroom claims the Daemon
taught rhaenyra how to seduce coal.
Which, you know, if you go by the show version, he didn't
teach her how to seduce coal so much as he just taught her.
Some things about Doctrine, which the job immediately turned
to use on Christine call. He also says that this story
became known because of him at the time, not in the testimony
of mushroom. But at the time, he's the part
of the reason that this rumor spread, or that this truth,
according to him spread, he also claims that Cole turn down
rhaenyra, despite all this, because that he's this super
Pious like chivalrous would never insult.
I would never do that sort of thing, which is a pretty
interesting claim for a mushroom who is like everything is sexual
when, you know, before you take it away.
Could I'd like, to point out that if mushroom says, the story
became known at the time because of him, well, in the show, the
story became known because of his Aria and her small phone.
So is mazari a candidate for one of the people?
You know? Yes, a large strong but oh, I'm
sorry. We gotta throw her in the Mater
to see there. We have our, we have a female
Astoria. So here we go.
I'm so sorry. Hey, oh, that's right.
This is small. So better than the others to
does well, and also one of the things that I love that they did
on the show was they were showing a lot like the lingering
camera angles and like all of those shots of people scurrying
around in the background massing information around.
I love that just, that was catnip for me on the show and I
feel like that's where a lot of these stories come from like the
story became known at the time because of mushroom himself or
because it was a racy story that everyone found fascinating and
so, the rumors were spreading all over the place at the time.
Another thing to connect. Those two real quick, Sean is we
hear this is portrayed on the show that egg on has children
with the underground fighting pits, the book version of that
is reported by mushroom, which the acceptance tend to download.
I got this is all gross whatever.
Let's move on That you know so it fits that as well that it
would be something. That's a small folk would have
maybe heard about because this is a guy.
I knew that to happen is our enemies.
Are you wanted those pit shut down?
Yeah, so she wouldn't like a so she could see why she would have
included that these things all fit together pretty.
Well, let's bring it back to the original part of this which
started which was the idea that the coal and Rainier and Damon
stuff. What do you think this story in
particular feels like an outtake from the Decameron?
To me all the tropes are there you have the out of scare quotes
comic plotline of the naive and stupid young girl who is chasing
the oblivious guy. She turns to the rake for help.
Not real. I mean by either knowing or not
knowing that. He's a real coach asks, no
questions about why this is a bad idea.
Go into excruciating detail about all the kinky things, they
got up to and then only the guy she wants scorns her, and she
goes off, and finds another guy and just goes off, living her.
Happy a promiscuous life. There is actually a similar
story about King, Edward, the third and his Enter mistress,
Alice preparers that made it into several later. 15th century
story collections that were inspired by the Decameron.
So even though, the Decameron itself isn't about historical
figures, a lot of the spin-offs of the Decameron ended up
starring historical figures. Like there's one about Edward
the Fourth, as well, and he's supposed meeting with his life
where he threatens her, with a dagger.
And she says, no, I'm too good to be your concubine, but not
the well-born enough to be your queen except he ultimately goes
off. And Aries her.
It's a very similar kind of story and these are these are
stories that would circulate about monarchs.
Because people wanted racy stories about monarchs, they
wanted to know that monarchs were just like them and they got
up to the same nonsense that they did like a much later
example, we also have this is a 19th century example, but King
Francis, the he closed while the first of France who lived in the
early 16th century around the same time as Henry.
The eighth was cast as the villain in a 19th century.
Play by Victor Hugo the same. Victor Hugo who and He's a
table. This play was called the Wasps
amuse or the king amuses himself and he tries to seduce the
daughter of his court jester, hey, relevant, only it all ends
in death, not the King's death, but everybody else.
So, as a note for Opera fans, this actually became the basis
for Giuseppe better days ago that do.
And it's a beautiful like wonderful wonderful songs and
the plot is awful. It is just about terrible men,
doing terrible things, which is just to say that something like
this. Story about Damon and rhaenyra
and Kristen Bowl. It just, it feels very sort of
literary to me more than an actual historical account, okay?
Right on. Yeah, the actual line from
mushroom about criston Cole is that he was quote as chaste and
virtuous as an agent SEPTA. So not much room for not much
wiggle room there unless he's just wrong and lying or
something, there's no sense of humor.
Is what I do. He also, Claims that the next
thing that happened after being after she was turned down by
criston Cole, was that she turned to break bones and he
claims to have caught them a bed which is what does he just
allowed to walk in to her room whenever he wants to?
Like this was a little hard to figure out logistically.
Sure but sit, but I like to think that rhaenyra and Harwin
were getting busy, you know, and some not discreet places, not
necessarily in the bedchamber, okay?
So just I just, you know, like technically like he can pop them
a bed but not Not in their bed bed in bed.
Okay, now I just there's a thought that's a good way to get
around that problem. Yeah I like fishing like yeah
just like out and look at you know, a little a little Nook
somewhere. I don't know commotion mushroom
or someone serving as, you know, the role of mushroom or whatever
is we're supposing, could have been going through some secret
chamber. Okay, I like in the serve an
idea works really well here too as you said because they could
just be having to live. It's time to change the bed.
Yeah, bring more cousins. Like do that.
And like what? Yeah, sorry.
I didn't know you were doing that in here.
Yeah. When you're not supposed to be
in this room even. Yeah.
So speak staying in bed. Mushroom claims that Rainier,
liked watching lane or and Carl in bed together.
This is one that you could just hear about as well.
I technically Rainier, I could have remarked to someone that.
She watched them one time and enjoyed it, right?
Or she could have been joking. Yes, jokes.
I can assure. I sure enjoy watching my Husband
but his dude. Like I the servant miss the
sarcasm or someone missed the sarcasm there and there's a
quote here as well. That adds some context yet.
Mushroom contradicts himself or elsewhere in his testimony.
He claims that the princess would leave her husband with his
lover on such nights and seek her own solace in the arms of
Harwin strong classic. Why not both situation.
Sometimes you want chocolate, sometimes you want Strawberry,
you know sometimes you won't bump.
Yes. Exactly.
So yeah, that this city that's where he stops like he hasn't,
he doesn't say okay and also there was an orgy he could have
but they bail or had that line Burn?
Yeah, yeah I think it like maybe that was one build a inkatha.
I like building exercised, his own moralistic reason, he claims
the Damon and Elena explored valyria, which is cool.
Now the quote here is we have abundant evidence.
The truth was less romantic but it's another one.
Not both like there's evidence that they were our braavos and
pentose which we saw in the show, they were performing and
getting feasted because they're fancy Dragon Riders.
People are happy to give them gifts and try to win them over
and stuff like that, but that doesn't mean they did.
Also go elsewhere, right? If they couldn't like, they were
on dragons, and he do not know where they went, they could have
gone to any number of places that are just not recorded.
We're talking about a period of several years that are not
necessarily accounted for And the flight logs, there's no yeah
that there's no westerosi FAA so know what's keeping track of
where the dragons are ya. So that's why it's open.
So I think we can't deny mushroom here entirely based on
the portrayal of Lena and House of the Dragon.
I could totally see Lena really wanting to go check out valyria
and she's got the dragon to do it.
Yeah. Hagar could big our could make
it that far? I'm frankly.
David was like even though he was portrayed as being kind of
stuck in the Rory. He was reading about valyria.
Yeah, I could hear them going on a day trip.
Picnic kind of you know he trimmed big.
That's great. Combining a lot of childhood
fun. It's like it's the lava game you
know you can't touch this actually true and valyria, you
really can't touch. And unlike the situation with
area and balerion like you're talking to adult capable Dragon
Riders who have been bought But they're dragons for a long for a
decent amount of time, so I don't think it's impossible.
Yeah, they turn around here. It's bad.
Unlike Belarus. Exactly.
They can turn around. If it gets bad as like turn
around, I don't have a mask pretty much.
Yeah, I can handle. This could be, they traveled to
valyria, and turned around before they even got like a
quarter of a mile into the Border, you know, like they
could have gotten to the out here and not actually really
pretty. Gone far, they could have flowed
over it. And said, wait, there's nowhere
to land. Let's go.
Yeah, let's go find a beach. We're on an island nearby, that
had a view of it. A lot of options for the
dragons, resisted, like they did at the wall ability.
Maybe the dragons were like, no, we're not going anywhere.
Near the learning can go in there.
But look, what happened to be wearing when he went in there.
Nine foots. Yeah.
And I don't want a 9-foot wound. I don't want to one.
Yeah, maybe they guards. Like that's my brother's job.
I'm not going. You told me how bad it was like
ya told me in private. Yeah I bet balerion told me.
Yeah, that dragons taught. No, I've seen grass is so
interesting to think about the idea that like balerion comes
back from valyria and communicates with any of the
other dragons and tell them that my car man.
Yeah go home anymore. Is that was God's as bad as they
say? They really set it on fire.
Whoops, of course. His and fire mushroom also
claims that it was the sea. Snake, who started the fire at
harrenhal is Vengeance. On the man who cuckolded his
son. Really started the fire.
It was always Kirsten. Not the Bro of her.
I feel like that one. Can go with the alerted hands.
Everybody died. So I think we can.
Yeah, that one's not know about that.
One mushroom. Good.
Good fodder for humor, though. He claims that Adam and Allen
are. Children of poor least rather
than the quote, official explanation of lane or which s
is what I think it's for Shawn doesn't really know Alan and
Adam and Alan at all, but you'll encounter that next season.
But you'll see ya. But no, I absolutely just I
really, this is one that I am 99% sure.
I feel that they're not laying horse farm blood agrees, it's
not. Like, even this environment
official, he's like, yeah, this is probably true.
Mushrooms, probably right on this one.
It just sounds so like, yeah, yeah.
Gil Danes like, This is one of the instances, where mushroom
might actually be like, I'm sure, I'm pretty sure even, sean
can get, why this, why we feel this way?
Because it's the idea here, is that lane or fathered bastards?
Yeah. And mushroom was like, no,
probably not. Like yeah, why would lane or
yeah, gay man, who didn't have children with his wife, have his
wife? Yeah.
Seem to care about and have an obligation to but then with
other random women. Yeah.
It doesn't make sense. Does it?
And in both the show and in Fire and Blood, you actually get the
impression. That rhaenyra and lane or had a
decent relationship. It just wasn't a sexual one.
Yes, yeah. Moving on, mushroom claims that
rhaenyra and Damon named their child egg on as a slight to
Alison and her egg on salad Valley?
Sure. Yeah.
You against that I mean when your name your kid egg on when
there's already an egg on who's like yeah no I think so you
can't not know I gotta say I'm afraid we did all watch season 8
of game. A couple things here.
One. I probably don't want to do well
on it too long or hear too much about it, but just because lane
or didn't have those kids, why does that mean?
Corliss? Did I?
But maybe I'm sure there's more to it.
I don't even know. Yeah, you don't know that kids.
Ya got there. I realized.
Is it a couple times? I've even thought like, oh man,
I'm not being spoiled when I hear about, aegon the third by
like, well that could be named after was a lot of aegon's.
A lot of different aegon's back. And I wonder even if that was
part of George's intent, kind of Muddy, the Waters of like who
alliance with your way. Comes of things, could be.
So, absolutely so many egg on. Yes, it does help.
It does help us avoid spoilers like a, we can throw some hang
on. I've, no, I noticed that when I
was like mentioning on the third before is like when you were a
che Express, a little concerned there's like, you know, I'm not
sure. Sean's gonna know what egg on
with their weather that he's not necessarily be able to figure
out who that is. Or yeah, don't know where aegon,
the fourth, an egg on the third line.
Yeah, it doesn't even tell you the time lat.
Anyway, tell ya. But yes I was concerned.
You're right. Is these?
I really was like oh no, I was just Too.
But then I realized what? No, I thought that means that
no, it doesn't mean that other. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So it's mushroom, as the source
for baby visenya, being draconic, and looking like all
that, all the different physical ailments, that she was born with
and that goes along with him, being going to carry her to the
funeral yard. That one seems accurate based on
the show having that if we're taking the show as being a, you
know, having some something to go on.
Yeah. And of course it's not the first
example that Danny has a. There's like, the ones Beggars
wives who were maybe in that category as well.
So yeah, this is this is well supported by other examples
elsewhere. Here's the one we mentioned
briefly before that egg on the second side to bastard children
on the street of silk the same year.
His twins with Elena were born. That part is sometimes gets lost
in the shuffle that they were born the same time as jaehaerys
injera included. In this set of rumors is that he
won one of these women at auction, he won her maidenhead
hockey, which is yeah. And the other was One of his
mother's maid servants, which is similar to show in, which it was
his wife's maid servant, said, of his mother's.
Maid servant. So that's the yeah, pretty small
difference there. In terms of, it was little
Nanny, the neck, which is were they, they were, they were like,
let's make this worse. Yeah, let's make a gun worse.
Yeah. They totally made a gun sleep
with the nanny, he apparently claims part, or full credit for
the idea of the Dragon seeds in the first place, giving the idea
to J's which an odd moment take credit for the show's version
where the It was David's idea. Seems more.
Yeah. So he's the one who's all
gung-ho about using dragons and in Warfare.
So, I feel like, he's the one who's pushing.
I think, you're right. Yeah.
The mushroom might be tugging at his pants.
Like, remember my idea, there's a time to talk about, like, the
painted tables taller than him, so they wouldn't.
Do we keep coming back to that? It keeps fitting.
So everything sure was talking about a different kind of dragon
see. I had to say it, but yeah,
everything about Sarah snow comes from mushroom.
All of it, including her existence.
The fact that she exists at all comes from mushroom.
The romance, all of it comes from mushroom.
None of its corroborated elsewhere.
Sean that says, we're not going to detail this one, because it's
pretty spoilery, but just the fact that she exists at all
comes. There's a stark.
Bastard daughter potential. Yeah, but maybe she doesn't even
exist. I think mushroom heard the tale
of Baal The Bard and got inspired.
That's a good one but he would, if anyone would know like he's
gonna have going to have access to Jace, talk to him.
And yeah, his home is Dragonstone.
So this was very possible. Hi, I really don't like for me,
personally, I kind of don't want it to be real like I don't like
in the house of the drug. What I think if I replied is
every what I want house, the dragon to do, in other words, my
house of the Dragon, I would prefer to not have a serous
know, and there's a lot of different ways they can go with
making things meaningful Chase and the start Connection in my
in my book. But I do think that the argument
for Sarah snow to me and why I think it could be meaningful, is
because I feel like Jay says someone who knows in-house the
dragon. He knows he's a bastard.
I feel like he would be having him bond with the fast.
Would bond with a fellow bastard.
Noble, bastard. I feel like there could be a lot
there. Yeah.
How I think they'll go with that.
I agree. But no, I do brandalynn price
said my thigh here. Sarah snow equals Craig and
star. It is known.
I am Loki heike, A J's Cragen shipper.
I do prefer the idea of they had a little romance that's Sara A
J's. I love it.
Yeah. Anyways, but still, yes, I'm,
I'm, I agree with you brandalynn, actually very much,
I was dancing around it, but that's my take, it's mushrooms.
Claim that ver Max left a clutch of eggs at Winterfell while Jace
was up there. Now, here's where our to Source
episodes come together because Fire and Blood calls this absurd
because they're sure ver Max was male.
Mention that septon bark when septon bars claims that dragons
can change sex. It's ludicrous but we know the
real world. This really happens with them
billions and lizard species. It's that we've mentioned
several times. Like I've personally seen it
with fish in my own home, so yeah, it's not ludicrous.
And of course there's the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, of
course. Yeah.
Where we have magic filling. That Gap here?
No, I think there's even examples of mammals doing this,
by the way, I I wish I knew a little bit better but I think
there's an example of a mammal do maybe something weird like a
platypus because they actually lay eggs.
He's also the main source for much of what we know about off
the white and you hammer. And of course, those two seem
like Pretty Bad Dudes, mushroom makes them seem even worse.
I suppose, which would kind of fit the first speaking to his
agenda. That's a pretty anti to small
folk people there. You know, that's a good point in
a, depending on who submitted this.
You might think they might paint.
Them a little better. But I don't know, very good
point well, but also, they are too small folk who caused a
great deal of harm to many more small.
Yeah. Good point on the one hand, like
I, you may want because what the way that they're portrayed at
first is not quite as bad as what happens later on.
So kind of it may well be that at first, everyone's like, oh
yeah, that's really cool. But then a little later on.
They're like, oh wait no. These guys are terrible.
Whoops, Next up, we have that it was still Venice and who was
behind game and palhares legal edicts, which were, of course
characterized by their pro-woman at Academy.
Cooper believe Shannon Barry plans.
Oh yeah, of course, of course this like dornish woman who had
a little bit more. Yeah, of course, if it's a lie,
it's so well crafted that it's hard to challenge.
I refuse to be like II accept that and this comes brings me
back to Missouri again because I know y'all will probably
remember that. I have a little bit of a theory.
I mean I would like to get it SE and silvanus and I got wood but
following the law of conservation of characters and
all that I do think there's a strong chance that m'.
Aria will take a lot of that plot line.
Even even a potentially extending to the lesbian Romance
of it. All like that is also possible
would be Fab. So, just speaking to the misery
a mushroom connection more potentially but I still don't
think that's the case in the book.
It was Silvana. We're going to meet a character
called Alice rivers in season 2, Shawn.
That's a bass. Harrenhal and according to
mushroom she was quote a malign enchantress who bathed in the
blood of virgins to preserve her youth.
Hmm okay then pottery that one a few times.
Yes oh yeah Elizabeth Bathory who was perhaps a medieval?
Was that right Cheryl killer early modern she was late 16th
and early 17th century but I believe there's been some good
podcast episodes on her. I recommend the the history
chicks episode on her and particular Noble Blood also did
a good one on her right on. So as part of this She claimed,
she was Far older than her appearance, which, of course.
That's the point of preserving your youth, but he's pointing
out that it's a substantial amount of Youth has been
preserved here. Not just, it's not like she's 10
years, younger that he claims that she's multiple Generations.
Younger that she was even Lionel Strong's wet nurse and maybe
even two Lionel's. Father.
So that she would be like way older, which is the more
standard accepted version is that she is a bastard daughter.
While but mushroom claims that she was wet nurse to Lionel.
So these are pretty you can also have been far apart.
Yeah. Absolutely, which is why I buy
my favorite take is her as a bastard sister to Lionel.
Yeah. I don't know that I think that's
for house dragons going to go. I'm not sure like just looking
at Harwin and Laura it's hard like those all those actors were
so close in age and Ike reality. I don't know what they're going
for their but I like the idea that it's between what mushroom
says here that like, no she wasn't a wet nurse to Lionel's
father. But like she was old enough.
Older than Lionel enough to be wet nurse to her.
Like little bastard. Probably not was his what it
would be quote unquote old enough to be his wet.
Yeah. Yeah, but like yeah was his
older sister and a bastard sister is my preferred to
headcanon there. But yeah, I certainly do not
think that she was a generation before Lionel.
I don't think she was that'll yeah.
I think she was Lionel's on my assumption was that she was
either Lionel's generation or like close to or just barely out
of fights all in between like yeah like yeah point five.
Yeah, I prefer for fantastic things to be kept at a minimum
and so I hope they don't make her magically look like she's 25
when she's really a hundred or something.
Yeah. But I can see the show like
having these rumors about her four characters suspicious in
some way or someone has it out for her for some reason.
But she is 50 and she just looks real good and looks like she's
in her 20s. And then people say some things
about her. Yeah something like that is kind
of more like in her 40s is kindness.
World. You have to keep it as a
potential. Like Noah Sondra really is
hundreds of years old but that Melisandre like is playing a
certain role on the show, it requires that?
I don't know if the seller are character needs to be really be
100 and she's aware whatever you, but she is just have
mystical associations with her, so calling her on the line and
chant rest-- who bathed in the blood of virgins is an
overstatement but also not necessarily entirely inaccurate
in that. She did seem to have a magical
Association isn't the only magical thing about her.
Yeah, not the blood of virgins thing but the part that like,
maybe she could see through where it was or maybe she did
have green Gene for, maybe she had something that gave her a
magical Edge. He claimed he hears miles right
by the I love face. Yeah.
You'll like yeah, it's yeah, you it's in that area.
Yeah. That mystical Zone a hinge of
the world ish. Maybe he also claims she used
love potions. Which honestly this one.
I think he has to to keep his story straight.
Straight because he's the source of the claim that there was
competition for Alice Rivers as love and he claims.
That Kristen call was one of the ones competing for her, which
this is completely at odds with his earlier claim that Kristen
was is virtuous and chaste as an agent septum.
So the only way guy like that is gonna go for anyone as whip love
potions. I think that's pretty strong
evidence that this is a false claim at least of love potions.
Yeah, exceptional of portion is claimed, by the way, it's more
evidence. Mushroom seeming to contradict
himself. It's just two stories from two
people from two times here like it.
Yep, good call. Good call.
He's the source for the brothel Queens, which is such a wild
story. That you would think there was
corroboration, if that really happens, Sean there without it.
This is a thing where some Royals were forced to be used at
set forced into sex work in a brothel, in a brothel.
Yeah. So it's like what like a And
this would be robber like there would be a lot of witnesses to
this if it really happened. So it's kind of it could have
been concealed after the fact but it's hard to accept because
it would be hard to conceal something like that.
Especially for multiple women have been forced into this.
Although there was the source I mentioned earlier where there
was the incident where a woman was supposedly concealed in a
London cook shop for several weeks and nobody knew about it
except for one source. I mean just to play Devil's
Advocate briefly maybe but I still think it's highly unlikely
given the identities of the two women involved gotcha.
He claims that Damon and nettles were lovers now Shawn you
haven't met Nettles yet, you will eventually and some of you
who've read fire blood will be instantly like hey, I don't
think so. There's more people say I feel
strongly yes and frankly, there's some compelling
Arguments for and against it the arguments against it are the
local history of maidenpool where much of this took place
says. No, but their counter evidence
is not very good. They're like, oh damn, I
wouldn't sleep with her he was old and she was young like, no,
that's not counter-evidence. He also they also claimed she
wasn't good looking enough which is like I don't think that's
very good evidence either. Yeah.
But they do claim. It was more of a daughter.
Ali fought like he doted on her which is that is believable, you
know. So that will be busy.
A lot of these will be very interesting to see how the TV
handles them or just doesn't use them.
Yeah, for all of these. But yeah, sometimes for things
when it's sometimes the TV show chooses a direction I'm like yes
this It's like makes it crack Cannon to me for I don't know, I
don't know what variables go into it that like shows that
improves it as Cannon to me, but sometimes it does, sometimes
they choose something and I'm like I still think it could go
either way and Fire and Blood. Yeah.
And honestly with the Nettles thing I think they could go
either way and I don't think I would be like this is proof and
Fire and Blood that it's one way or another to me.
Hmm, I don't know. That anything will ever decide
it for the history of the actual history of the text, but I'll
ever feel like I know even when I see it on screen, hmm.
As yeah, there's definitely been things like, no, this is like
what we were talking about some of it earlier but definitely
some worm-like know. This is this is correct.
Yeah. Yeah.
I can enrich. Listen and not just had Cannon
but it there's supporting evidence as well as just we want
to believe it but like visenya is birth, that was woken.
Write to me for whatever reason, there's no doubt that that was
the cannon and Fire and Blood. I still have room for doubt for
other situations. Good example.
Yeah, perfect. So I wanted to have in this
episode lat, some examples of surprising agreement.
Are it's surprising that mushroom and use disagree, or
that, mushroom. And some other source agree.
I didn't find a lot of those probably because when they
agree, it's not interesting, that's not included.
So unless it's a really controversial thing that they're
like, but we have multiple sources agree that it actually
happened, which is a way of something that seems unlikely,
that's when you would want to provide agreement from the
sources to say, no, look this, this is actually probably really
did happen. Yeah.
So, plenty of times that you must end at the source, they
might have agreed, but there was no reason for gilday and to say,
they Bowl. There's no reason for the point
that I really Believers the point, if you just endlessly,
like the sources agree on this thing every sentence we like the
sources agree. Mrs. Orson, yeah.
I would be this isn't a spreadsheet.
Like you said Kavita. It's supposed to be
entertaining, especially this one because it's baked history,
but even real history is has a narrative to it.
So the example here of surprising agreement is that
both mushroom and use disagree that Carl Quarry, killed Leonor,
which of course, the show. Threw us for a loop there and
having Carl Us to be part of the plot.
It was sudden, it was twist. Yeah.
We're like, whoa, we didn't see that coming.
But mushroom ads, they agree on that mushroom adds the Daemon,
paid him to do it, which was also portrayed.
The show is Damon, paying him to be a part of it but not actually
kill him. Yeah.
But then mushroom also adds that Damon been had Carl murdered
after employing. Carl to do his dirty work which
well Carl did bit here. They both disabled Loose Ends.
Yeah. Well the spirits that could yet
Yes, they do both disappear. So does that all fit?
So this is a good one where they agree on the initial part that
mushroom ads, like, more scurrilous details that fit.
If Damon was willing to pay a man to kill lane or he would
probably want to cover his tracks.
I haven't really entertained the idea of whether passing the
dragons can and could be correct.
Like is it theoretically possible in Fire and Blood that
the house was dragons, was more accurate than this?
I don't think so, but I don't know that I have any proof.
That means that it could Couldn't be the case.
In this case, maybe knocks, I think they had lenore's body.
Okay, that's my question is, if there was harm through my
positive and his body, yeah, they had leaders body.
Anybody, anybody? Yeah?
They had a bond. Yeah.
Whether it was actually laying or his body is entirely separate
question. Yeah.
Because in the show the book there's no like burned body to
throw that off. Like that was just well.
Okay, so like, here's where I'm going with this as well is Carl.
It was like happened in public. Like Lena was Fab.
Yeah. Look, it happened in suppose.
Italy at how? Well, this is my take on it, is
that George? I mean, I've watched on about
this that I Dorchester made his mind up for a lot of situations,
right. He hasn't decided yet, that's
what makes it easier for him to write that.
He has that. Oh, he's commented on it, right?
So, my take is that are there things in House of the dragon
that he sees on screen and he's like, that's my new headcanon.
Like yeah, he has not done anything in the Fire and Blood.
That means this could not be the case and if it possible that he
could watch that and be like, hmm, stroke my chin, Actually, I
know more about this lane or did survive.
Like, I think that the text does not preclude that from happening
whether I think that that could be the anything but I think it's
still possible. Hmm.
I say let's all let's all proposed the headcanon my lane
or goes off and becomes a gentleman pirate.
Yeah. Up on that will see them.
I would like to see. Yeah.
I'd like to see them at least, sort of call back to it.
It's some. Yeah.
I would I took the blue Valerian flag added some purple to it.
Yeah, there you go. Okay, so here's an example of
where they somewhat disagree, and there's some discussions
that come from that one that's kind of maybe it relevant on
terms of the disagreement. But it shows how the sources can
differ on even when it isn't a matter of, Substance
necessarily. Although in this case maybe it
is here's what we're talking about.
The death of Lord bees burry everyone basically blames
criston Cole but there's some differences on how he was
killed. Whether his toss out a window,
whether his throat was cut and the show, had a third version,
only one dissenting voice. There says bees where he was
arrested by criston Cole and died in captivity and that's
Grand maester or while. So, even though Orwell's take is
not repeated by anyone else. While was actually there but we
don't actually have or Wiles account we have monk ins account
of or Wiles account was kind of notably tried to cover his own
his own ass. Yes, and we know where I'll try
to cover his own but yes, you're right about that.
So there's a multiple reason not to just take or wild face value
because it's not face value and he might be lying monk in is
also the example Tyrion sites is incorrect while discussing the
tale of Sir Byron Swann attempting to repeat the tale of
Sir went. The mirror Shield so we have
another example of Monk and being wrong to support the idea.
That monk ins shouldn't be believed when discussing or
Wellness Cyril, you know, it's not proof but it's cast doubt on
monk ins accounts General and here's where we point out in
general as well. Eustace was biased towards the
greens and mushroom towards blacks but also or while kind of
favored the blacks which is a little interesting, but that's
mostly because of just how things went afterwards.
This is a great case of or whilst trying to save his own
skin, most likely and if Monken new or while Was being pro black
in his analysis. He may have tried to correct for
that. He's like, okay, I know this
Source was biased. So let me try to undo some of
this bias in my version of it, but you may not have done a very
good job of that. What is that something?
We see Kavita out in the real world of an author interpreting
someone else's Source, starting a source of bias and trying to
like filter some of that bias Out.
Boy, easiest, ya authors are Constantly taught like
chroniclers are constantly talking over each other,
especially if they're coming from different historical
Traditions. You will have chronically will
have like one set of chronic was absolutely shitting on the other
came before them saying like those guys had no idea what they
were talking about. They did not know how to write
history. I know how to write back and I
have looked at everything they've said and everything they
say is wrong. There are entire rants embedded
in these Chronicles, about how X historian is completely wrong
and no one should It's even better when it when the
religious conflict enters into it.
Because then you have like Protestant historian screaming
at Catholic historians who are screaming back and it's a whole.
So another one that we sort of saw on TV a little bit at least
a version of it is when or while delivers the message to Rainier
is court that a gun is taking the throne on the show.
It's Auto Hightower leading that with more Wells just kind of
standing there in the book version or while is the leader
of the delegation. A monk and claims or allows
erudite which again Monken was using or Wiles own while
claiming he was erudite as like, okay?
Yeah, sure. You were mushroom, says he
stammered and voided. His bladder mushroom was there.
So he has usual standard caveat Supply.
Why not both? Yeah, it was Aaron eyes.
Water a day. Wow, the fluid was leaking down
his leg. Yeah.
Maybe he started off erudite, but also really needed to pee.
Hold it goes. He Alabama.
Yeah, we were told it goes in. He's delivering he's discussing
and then and Rainier starts to kind of intimidate him and he's
like starts to back down a little bit.
Erudite and then had a dragon like poke out and he's like, oh
I'm sorry, yeah I'm just cool, which is understandable yet
another, why not both? Yeah that's that's cool.
Okay, so here's a really good one.
Here's a really good, is it? This is one of the deeper ones.
We have here used his claims viserys died in his sleep.
Mushroom claims Alison. Poisoned him mushroom.
Wasn't there. Kavita and Nina had a great
spirited debate here in the in our document, why don't you take
us through some of the points that were made on both sides?
And what came of this? Because it's really interesting
but it's also a lot for us. It's a ton.
Yeah. Like I think we actually came
out on the same side at the end of it.
I think partly, it was my sort of not expressing myself very
clearly. But essentially, what I was
saying was I really liked the way that house with the dragon
dealt with this because they had Damon be the one who's like, oh,
the saris was poisoned and It looks at him and goes no, the
service who we just saw who was literally rotting from the
inside of our journey towards like, no reason to poison that
guy. All you had to do was wait five,
they just push him over and help out yet.
Yeah, breathe on him. The service is illness and Fire
and Blood is not described as quite on the level, as it was on
the show on the show. It was clearly a theme attic
point. It was clearly meant to kite
like the land and the King are both rotting and all that.
Like it was a whole thing. Whereas in fire.
And blood. What we get is a very gradual
decline over a period of two decades, viserys becomes Less
Mobile, he develops, gout he starts having kind of trouble
with his heart. Very typical parts of kind of
advanced aging only. They're happening when he's a
little bit younger because of yeah, partly like he's partying
too hard. He's a party King and we didn't
get that in the show. He wasn't a party King in the
show or at least not after the first episode.
We saw a party King, Becerra sand, the first episode of Just
kind of vanished. Yeah, but in fire and blood, the
party King is kind of there the whole time.
It's not quite on the level of Robert Baratheon, we don't get
kind of the binge drinking and the womanizing on the same
bubble. But we did, there's so many
descriptions of how he loved to eat.
He loved to go to tournaments, he didn't participate in them
but he liked watch them. And he, he like all of those
things. And there's also this reference
that Nina made by the end of his life and 129, AC, viserys is
chest. Pain said, Groan.
So severe that he could no longer climb a flight of stairs.
So that's very you think? Yeah.
The writing on the wall and then Andre happens and the hand
injury happens and it goes gangrenous.
And my Rainier is Meister is apparently able to kind of
amputate his fingers and solve the problem temporarily.
But having a wound like that, when you're older is going to be
a problem. So all of these things are there
and I talked about kind of not just sort of historical
precedence for this, which again, was In the fourth y
talked about earlier but one of the things that I also wanted to
bring up is this idea of not what happened?
But the perception of what happened.
So mushroom is the one who brings up the rumor that
alicent. Poison viserys.
I don't think he brings it up because anyone actually believes
that Alison poison viserys, but it's there for political
reasons, anytime a monarch dies, unless a bunch of people saw it
happen. And there's going to be at least
one person who says. Oh yeah, maybe.
So it was poisoned, that always happens.
Pretty much any time. A medieval early, modern Monarch
died unless it was something that was very, blatantly obvious
but death in battle, maybe. Yeah.
Death and back like no one thought.
Richard the third was poisoned because he had a knife through
his head. Poison knife.
You saw him die. Very like a Hartley, but there's
still those theories about that. Yeah.
There are serious about Ty would be poison, people believed
Edward, the Fourth had been poisoned because he caught
pneumonia very good support. Like modern historians believe
that was probably pneumonia that killed him.
But he caught, he fell ill very quickly and died within the
space of a couple of weeks. So people immediately went, oh
my God, maybe he was poisoned, but most likely not that's
almost certainly not. What happened?
Same thing with Henry, the eighth had really had a very
long debilitating illness and he finally He died.
But again, people were like, oh, maybe he was poisoned probably
not. Probably, he died because he had
a really bad illness again. Like any time a kid any time a
monarch died from an illness. That wasn't obvious.
If it was the people onic plague, everybody knew but if it
was just some sort of respiratory thing, no one could
have been sure. And also from mushrooms
perspective, given the timing which happened when rhaenyra was
unable to do anything about claiming her throne you See how
mushroom would want to put out. And it's like, oh yeah, maybe
she was poisoned, maybe this was on purpose, maybe the timing is
just too good. But again, mushroom wasn't
there. And if we actually look, and
this is what Nina points out. If we actually look at it from
the greens perspective, it doesn't make sense for the
greens. It was to their advantage to
have the Sarah's alive because he was their puppet cake.
And as soon as he died, they knew there was going to be a
succession crisis. Yes, so stringing it out to get
their ducks in a row in a sense. Yeah.
They, they wouldn't want him to
die until and unless he explicitly named a ganas, are
ya. Which as far as we know, he
never did, right? Or until the kids have more
battle experience. The dragons are bigger.
Some. Yeah, that was one thought I had
to in this discussion with it. I felt like Nina made a lot of
points as to why the greens logically wouldn't want to
poison him. But I don't think it's safe to
assume the greens are all logical.
Someone could have been a logical.
She's on. Could have made a mistake
someone who wasn't there. Instead of what I still, don't
think it's likely but I do think it's reasonable to consider how
or why someone might have done it or why someone might want to
spread that rumor. Again.
If we think there's some agenda behind mushrooms, writings, or
the person who collected his writings, I think there's decent
motivation for someone to want to have the suspicion going,
even if there's no logical reason for it.
And even if there's no logical reason for it sometimes people
are illogical to. So that's also a factor.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And my perspective was basically from Sort of looking at it from
a historical writing perspective because the last time I was on
this podcast, one of the things that I mentioned was the death
of King Henry, the sixth in 1471, and it's reportage and
multiple sources. The ones who are favorable to
the king, who replaced him, talked about how he died from
quote, pure displeasure and Melancholy because that's the
thing people die from the more ambivalent one's claimed, that
he died mysteriously in the Tower of London, but declined to
mention a cause and then the later more hostile ones accused
someone Specifically, Richard of Gloucester of hat later,
Richard, the third of having stabbed him.
So you can see kind of the progression of how these sources
build on each other and we see this happening in Fire and Blood
as well. While I do not believe that the
greens poison viserys. I'm absolutely 100% of the, he
died of natural causes Camp, the pieces, are there for people
hostile, to the greens, to make the claim and to make that claim
stick. Mmm, even if the greens were not
responsible, people, probably believe they done.
In it at least in part because they are scrambling to hide the
fact that the saris is dead and people are going to look at that
they're going to go well why are you doing that?
If you're not guilty but the fact is that what they're likely
doing is they're reacting to something, unexpected rather
than proceeding along with a plan that they had already
arranged. I see like in the show, we saw
Damon even if Damon thought about it and realized the greens
won't poison him. Damn is not thinking logically.
And even if you did logically, think about it realize they
wouldn't have a good motivation of poisoner.
It's still good motivation for him to Rally people to war
propaganda. Use that price.
He's like, any anything goes, he's not, he doesn't care if
he's care about ethics in warlike, not Damon.
Now some people might and and people in Faraway lands, it
don't know the details of the source of life and illness at
court can easily be swayed by. Now, they don't know any details
on a dragon saying, join me and battle because your king was
poisoned, you know what I mean? Like, Totally true.
Yeah, I totally see this argument.
It's really well made and to add to it a little bit with in this.
Fandom every Targaryen King every king of dies.
Yeah. People are like, were they
poisoned? Yeah.
I like, like Balaam had a Daemon and viserys his father died of a
stitch in his belly, like, people are like, what is it, was
he poisoned hand of the king like he was next in line?
Like yeah, there's theories there about that, and they're
not totally invalid. There may be something to it and
that even vaguely gets brought up on the show and Otto gets
fired. I have a cat on my lap.
Oh, look at that lurks on. Anyone keep was not looking at
the camera. The next one for mushroom, is
that Lady Jane of the vale asked Jace to go down on her in order
to win the veils support and for the dance of the dragons.
No, no Jane, Erin is a lesbian. Everyone knows.
Yeah, it did not happen. Not very likely percent chance.
Yeah. Similarly categorized here,
Eustace says iron Rod. The master of laws appointed by
the greens. Got his nickname for his
unbending attitudes on matters of law.
But quote mushroom declares it iron Rod was named for the
stiffness of his member having Saturday, 29 children on for
wise before the last died of exhaustion, why not both.
Why can't your laws be as stiff as you remember?
Exactly. Lee.
Why not both? Yeah and there's some other
examples here too. Like we got a dog and a cat on
screen. Oh yeah.
There's like mushroom, says this but used to says this, sometimes
that framing implies it's a contradiction, but it's usually
just like if they just said Ang instead of but like mushroom
says this and used to says this, then you then you can actually
set it up for, why not both. But I'll often it's framed as a
competition between these things.
When really option C should be included, which is, why not
both? Yeah, which is maybe a flaw and
not how far in blood is written but That maybe George wanted to
portray with how a lot of sources work.
What do you think? Juan how history is Rich?
Sure what you think about that? Could mean, is that is that
accurate or it is? That is absolutely accurate that
like, that's the difference between and and but is Legion.
And one of the things that you see in the early modern sources
in particular, like the the big compilations of Chronicles that
we see in the 16th century 17th century where they're
essentially pulling together. All of these medieval sources
into a giant book, one of the things that we see is These
multiple accounts of the same thing where they say, so-and-so
said this so-and-so said that so-and-so said that, you the
reader you pick which one you like best, why they would
include that in the writing after these different options
and I can't help. But think sometimes, by the way,
maybe neither. Especially if you're your
sources are dubious in the first place, maybe they know both or
neither could be options. The, the story that I told
earlier about where, where the typo change someone's age from
17 to L've. That's actually one of those
instances where, like, multiple versions of the same story or
put out there and people are like, well, the Stig says he's
12 Mike. No, he wasn't 12.
He was 17. It was an early type.
Oh, okay. Well, we have a few more things
to get to. There's a couple things in the
document here that we won't fight have time for.
There's so many examples of mushroom and his resources, we
don't have mushroom for hey One thing that we noticed here that
is in Fire and Blood one like pattern, is that he seems pretty
anti Ament doesn't he he refers to amund at one point, he said
he refers to the weather. Outside storms end, the night of
loose, areas his death as black as Prince, a man's heart.
Ha ha ha. He's got it out for him.
That is not mushroom was real. I feel like a man would be very
humorless and would really not like mushroom, and that they
would be a real life. Doesn't like the guys who don't
have a sense of humor. Yeah.
So I think that laugh at my jokes.
He's going to be the butt of my dream octagon.
The third, for his lack of sense of humor to an egg on the third
visit, otherwise decent person, you know, traumatized poor kid,
you know, and all that. But yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I've got totally fits and as well it also fits because
The reaction to lucero's his death, which we saw at the end
of season. If mushroom is there, he's gonna
feel her raw emotion, see their reaction, and he's maybe that's
the emotional weather vane for him.
Like, this, is the guy that did that.
And so it just for then from then on he's anti Amon because
well, and he wasn't there like was account, like he was not
physically there. He didn't see any of this,
everything. He's getting his second or third
hand. He reports that aymond cut out
Loose Terraces eyes and Of them to one of baratheon's
daughter's. After the fact it's like where
did he get the body? Didn't they got?
Yeah. Where do ya?
He found the bike. Exactly like yeah.
If there was a body how did that?
That he find it. Yeah.
So that's that's not very easy to believe.
Yeah. Okay let's talk about his best.
Quips let's finish with that. There's quite a few good ones as
we can, we can talk about them and react to them and that'll be
a good way to finish. This is the thing we like to do
is with my other much, much smaller podcast, the podcast of
surprise the which Podcast that we do we save all the jokes for
the end and it's a good way to I think to exit an episode with
laughter. Yeah yeah branding with the wit
and wisdom. That's sure.
We're ending our any with the win with?
Yeah you're right we couldn't find like Eustace is accounts
work, very funny. So that's important to note
though. Both did say bees burry spoke up
in a waspish tone which was that's a that's a little secret
pun there at a particular low point for rhaenyra.
He reports this Station quote, my faithful mushroom, her grace,
call me with it. All men were true as you.
I should make you my hand and I reply that I would sooner be her
consort. She loves that.
Okay, so this is one of the reason people think material
that is something tearing would say I'm so why not make, you
know, why not put or when I both yeah, that's actually a book
that's that I could totally see that.
Yes. Change.
How I agree and night like a bat just being something that they
the joke between them. I could see that.
I mean, I can. Yeah he definitely see Tyrion
just saying this to Dad Any? Yeah, as I said at the
beginning, he's the one credited with the nickname, broken bones
for break bones. Yeah, that's fair.
It sucks. But it's yeah, the Queen, the
never was, which is a great nickname.
We use that one a lot and the butcher's ball which is battle
that has given seen yet Shawn. So that's a ball, it could just
be Advanced. Oh yeah, could be a dance, the
dance of the Dragons. So there should be dances with
in the day, you know, it's Sub dance is within the group dances
over the dragon is he nicknamed The Shepherd, the Dead Shepherd
in part because of his stench. She smelled like the court, a
corpse. Yeah, Shepherd's character.
We have you haven't met yet Shawn?
He's a sort of High Sparrow wish.
Yeah, okay but a little more mysterious and there's a line in
reference to how the commoners should be feared.
And if you think of the riot at King's Landing in a Clash of
Kings / season to this, Line that comes next.
Really hits home. And this is mushroom saying it
trunks they may be but a drunken man knows no fear fools.
I but a fool can kill a king rats that too.
But 1000 rats can bring down a bear.
I saw it happen once down there in flea bottom.
I'm not sure he really saw that 1,000 RADS bring down a bear,
that part I ha ha ha ha, ha baby was in murmansk maybe it's that.
I can't believe common folk of flea bottom cows in Mormont
night. No, no, that's a wrap.
Water rats. Yeah.
Well there's lhari strong rats. Maybe but he's right there.
Like yes, quantity Can it can overcome quality if there's a
know if there's enough of that quantity doesn't have to take a
lot of quantity but yeah. So that's it's almost patch face
Ian because Tyrion King Joffrey was quote-unquote murdered by
Tyrion whom he had made his full.
Remember Tyrion was made Geoffrey's fool also dontos, but
that was Li was a longer thing there.
It was just at the wedding were cheering was made his fool.
Not to mention Joffrey, nearly got himself, civically killed
by, starting that Riot, by mocking, the crowd for spoiler
purposes. We shall avoid this full context
of this conversation, but it also does involve Prince Joffrey
Valerian because because Prince Joffrey was arguing to go take
action and this Joffrey here got killed for his actions.
Yeah, conveniently not just for spoilery purposes but for time
purposes. Yes Kavita.
Gently. Yeah, I'll try working the
caveats, caveats. I couldn't figure out as
Microsoft Word thought, my name was kind of Microsoft.
Where was got there before me? Hey, guys, better these days.
It's claimed that mushroom said that Lena was quote, almost as
pretty as lane or that's a good one.
Yeah, that's the one that was said, yeah, yeah, yeah, David.
He also claims Allison said Plane or on Joffrey's birth do
keep trying sir lane or soon or late.
You may get one who looks like you exact quote on the show.
Yeah that was Dallas and said that rest.
Yeah, it's just in Fire and Blood.
Mushroom is the source for Allison saying that.
So yeah. Okay.
Just I believe it. Yeah.
That one, I believe. Absolutely.
And here's one of the biggest of all saving the best for last and
remember what we just said about his views on aymond, he claims
Amon said the following, I have wait, I wake up.
I have never known anyone so strong as my sweet nephews.
So let us drain our cups to these three strong boys.
Oh yeah. So it's a good example of one
where we all had can into that one for the most part.
Like it's so good, it's painful to admit.
It might not be true because it's like a came from mushroom.
It sounds maybe a little embellished like because
mushroom may have improved the wording like, was a In really
that eloquent, if mushrooms saying it to his audience, he
would want to like make the joke, just write like a
comedian. Like you go through a few
iterations until the joke is word of just properly.
I think that might be at work here but I'm fine with that on
the show. This was an insult that he had
practice. I was thinking the same thing.
I was even thinking that maybe mushroom or whoever gave a
manette lines, like, this is what you do, this is what you
say. I do like the idea though that a
man was like, okay, I'm going to submit a see, my childhood
bullies by nemeses again. What am I gonna say to these?
Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, knowing, we know, we know that
12 about a man, he's probably got a whole like book of
insults. Like we, like aim at people, and
he just pulls them out whenever it's ready.
Yeah. It's the stress, not a bad
strategy, feel like I wish I could do that.
I always come up with the best. Is after the fact.
Here's my favorite though, because it's summarizes.
Some of what George is saying about the type of source,
mushroom is even as he's also pointing out.
That mushroom is accurate quite often when it comes to the
dragonseeds issue or saga, he claims to have tried to ride one
of the Dragons himself, one of the dwarfs, more amusing Tales,
it ends with mushroom running across the ward of Dragonstone
with the sea. Eat of his pantaloons on fire
and knive drowning. When he lept into a, well, to
quench the Flames, an actual case of Liar.
Liar, pantaloons on fire. George doesn't use the word
pantaloons that often, so it really stands out here.
It's just a funny word. Let's be honest.
That's alone. That's a comic word.
Like, if you go to the Krusty, the Clown School of funny words,
that's in there, you know, it's right up there with Seattle.
Yeah, yeah. So I don't think we're expecting
Leave Mushroom on that one against that though.
We have him saying things like this, quote, some singers can
find Glory. Even in a privy, mushroom tells
us but it takes a fool to speak the truth.
That's pretty wise and like that one's one to take the hard
because yeah, like patch face that's when we come back to him
where patch face is like spittin visions and nonsense but some of
its like dead accurate or going to come true and you better
listen but even if you maybe you can't understand it.
How do you respond to that one? Comida.
This is this, this piece of wisdom.
I mean, one of the one of the tropes about fools and whether
or not this is true, we can't really say this might be an
apocryphal thing, but one of the tropes about fools is that they
did have the license to speak truth to power in a way that
other people did not, and they become kind of emblematic of
these types of relationships. This relationship between a
monarch and one person in their Court in, Who is obviously
definitionally below them in status, but who for whatever
reason, has their confidence. We see like obviously Davos is
not a fool, but we see Stannis and Davos having this kind of
relationship. We do not see Robert having this
relationship with anyone other than maybe Med, who's not even
their most of the time. So it's a, it's a popular Trope
and it's a one that exists for a reason, but I don't know if I
can necessarily come up with real world.
Moses other than sort of Will Somers, is one of those fools,
the one of those historical, a court Jesters, who supposedly
had this kind of relationship with Henry, the eighth.
And I know on the Showtime series, The Tudors, they
actually had Will Somers of the character and they had him kind
of as Henry's Confidant during one of the later Seasons where
he was trying to figure out what to do under certain
circumstances. Hmm, right on well said, okay,
so mushroom sort of sailed off into the sunset while he sailed
into Sunrise because he sailed East, basically, he sailed on
in-depth towards esos. He began in King's Landing or at
least his story did since as we know not when, and where he was
born. We said at the beginning that he
left for essos and never seem to return that we know if it is
actually possible that he returned to Westeros at some
point, I mean he did live a long life apparently, since we said,
he at least live past, the are 157, which is 26 years after
dance, because he did outlive egg on the third next year.
Hang on the third died. It's a bad job to have,
literally They said that's the king who doesn't laughs?
Yeah, like what, yeah, you definitely need to move on from
that one. So it was, it wasn't the blood
and murder and front-row seat to the worst Humanity has to offer.
It was the lack of an audience, got some to move on.
He's like, I can ice, I can handle all the murder and death
and cruelty, but people not laughing at my jokes, can't have
that. So he moved North to White
Harbor with Lord manderley, when manderley left, the Regency to
return home or manually. Apparently it's all about
laughing. He stayed at I prefer a while
probably good place to be the annals of white Harbor.
If we knew them could maybe provide evidence of mushrooms
existence, but we don't have access to that, you know,
there's always a chance he gets mentioned later.
He could be mentioned in Fire and Blood too because of the
bail or stuff and the burnings. There's another possibility is
you know, maybe in Song of Ice and Fire gets mentioned again,
maybe Tyrion has caused him to cite him.
This is the last written of him in Fire and Blood.
However the later volumes of his Any filled with colorful
accounts of his life in white Harbor, his sojourn at the court
of the sealord of braavos. His voyage to the port of Eben
and his years, amongst the, mummer's of the lisping lady,
are valuable in their own right though.
Less useful to our purpose here. So sadly, the little man with
the foul. Tongue must passed from our
story though, never the most reliable of chroniclers the
dwarf, spoke truths, no one else dared speak.
Often droll besides yes, he was. He was often draw besides.
So yeah, I don't think it's a vain hope that we get more on
mushroom, maybe not like details about him about his life.
Although we might be to extrapolate stuff based on what
we do, get, what do you think of eating?
What's your, what are your hopes here?
So in addition to asking George if he thinks mushroom is a
testimony of mushroom was actually written by a real
person named mushroom. I would like to ask him which
were the books that they are. Forgive us.
Yeah, we may get closer to where they dragon books where they
robbed? She books were they like books
about other religions like I want to know what were the
books. He wanted burn.
Hmm. But it's honestly the variety of
stories that makes me more like on the fact that there's so many
of these different stories and you look at that last section,
even there's like four different lifetime's worth of experiences
that yes, they could all have happened to one.
Person. But it seems to me that this is
a collective story that mushroom is a convenient pseudonym for
multiple people. And if you look at sort of for
instance T the city Chronicles of the 15th and 16th centuries,
they're usually amended by multiple people like it starts
off with one person, writing it and then someone else picks up
and something like the dread pirate Roberts theory of
mushroom. Except that, in this case, it's
even more of a collective. Like you've got lots of people
contributing stories and then in the end, you end up with this
text, that contradict it Itself. That doesn't necessarily hold
together. That doesn't make sense, but it
does offer kind of a bird's eye view of what lots of different
people thought so potentially right on.
Okay, yeah, I really love the way, the name suggests that we
have so many, the name is when we brought up the beginning,
kind of the circle back to share brought up the euphemism for
mushroom, which is fitting because he's such a sexual
character. And then we brought up fancies
Sprout, like mushrooms, after a hard, Which is a variety of
rumors about a particular event, which is what you're
characterizing mushroom, as, as a being, which is so fitting.
So George really created a character that suggests and
supports a number of theories of number of takes a number of,
it's just really well made and that's awesome because it
doesn't seem like a particularly important character.
She's like, just a way to support the fun of the story,
but when you dig into it, it's like this is really well thought
out and it just fits and works really well as a point of
discussion as As a springboard for the interesting topics we
had today and others that are surely possible that we didn't
have time for didn't conceive of.
Yeah, once again, George, you know, just thinking about the
idea to have mushrooms are, sometimes nutritious and tasty
too, sometimes poisonous and maybe the stories and mushrooms
are similar, sometimes her adding value and flushing things
out but sometimes they're making a suspect, the truth of it or
taking someone's reputation or whatever is your point.
Good point, couple of comments from folks as we make our way
out here, more Lisa Just a show of love and support for
everything here. She Westeros love you guys, and
the kitties. Yeah, for Shawn to grab a cat
while, really shuttle? So long.
Look at Xerxes during that period, we got a dog.
We got a cat with could have another Brendan price.
Says not really a deep question because wondering if dr.
Kavita, thanks, Gil, Dane is a nod to Guild ass at all.
I could see that. Yeah, Gil daus is so just for a
context Guild us was A fifth or sixth Century historian writing
in Latin in what is now the United Kingdom we don't I'm not
sure exactly where he was located but he is actually
another of the early supposed sources for King Arthur.
He only mentions him in passing he mentions him as this Roman
warlord who happen to be active against the Saxons.
But that's what makes them relevant because he is one of
our earliest sources for the existence of that guy named
Arthur who might have eventually become known as King Arthur.
Okay. Very good, very good.
Oh, we got it. Oh, there she is. 40 or so
pretty. Yeah, pretty dirty girl.
Ah, look at her looking right at what a star.
Oh yeah. She's like I'm a fancy.
Yeah, good girl. Are there as my other dog has
slept through this in a good dog.
Oh our trivia question. The question was, who had this
line? They cooked it with mushrooms
and apples and it tasted like Triumph the quote, he is Cersei.
And what being what's being referred to as the The boar that
killed Robert Baratheon, that sounds like a Circe and
Christina K got their first very quick immediately.
I see very good directly to but hers is much faster.
Cool right on. I'm glad a few people got that
one. Not too surprised.
Christina. K.
God first, she's a lot of times on top of these things, very
good. A few other episodes, we
mentioned don't forget. Next week is Battle of the
Trident weed. I didn't technically mention our
Dance of the Dragons covered with radio Westeros but it A
certainly coverage of a lot of these events, ceptin Barth
episode. That's a big one different.
Look at an important Source episode. 6 of our preview of
House of the Dragon was convened.
His first appearance on history of Westeros?
If you want to check that out, there were some great
discussions and competed. Remind everybody again where to
find you both on the internet but also other episodes you've
appeared on okay? Yes, as you mentioned, I was on
the episode 6 preview of House of the Dragon here.
I have. Also I was also on The House of
the Dragon recap episode, the end of season recap on learned
at hams. And there have been a couple of
others. I also actually am part of a
podcast that that goes through, our flag means death, we've been
on a bit of a Hiatus for personal reasons, but we are
hoping to get another episode out soon, especially because
there's so much news about our flag meets death.
Yeah, so that's why I'm supporting these into exactly.
We got time that and I can be found, I've written a bunch of
essays about House of the Dragon.
Tation Fire and Blood. If you want to hear any more
details about my various mushrooms berries, that is
usually where you can find them on my blog which is KVM thin dot
wordpress.com. And I can also be found on
Tumblr. As poor Shadows painted Queens
where I will occasionally answer weird questions about A Song of
Ice and Fire. Nice.
Excellent. Well, you are amazing.
Thank you very much for coming. We really appreciate your time
and your great thoughts. I learned a lot Lot.
I expect the listeners did as well and Sean and Shea a to I
can't speak for them, but I'm going to go ahead and do it.
Anyway. I was glad that we could have
you on when Sean was on because obviously before it was a
spoilery topic. So he had gotten to meet you
before. So I was glad to get that.
Oh yeah. Now and also my shirt that I'm
wearing is a Shakespeare shirt. Oh yeah.
All the female character first tetralogy of the history of
Shirts and with the pink egg because Sean's last name is pink
so he gives her pink, I'm wearing, the gang goes to ice
and fire upon, which is relevant, because the Sean
brought up, I should work on today, but I was just thinking
about the pain and felt like wearing the shirt.
And I have the king long live. The king viserys Targaryen
shirt. Yeah, TV version house the
dragon version. Yeah I actually got these isn't
wearing it right now but I got like that that the crown that is
on that list of a saracen cherries and wear your crown.
This guy got as he's a ring version.
Of it like a small ring for his hand.
It's really cool. It's a really nice ring.
I don't wear Rings while recording because it's too easy
to. Yeah.
Just tap on. Yeah.
Sounds clicks and banging sounds.
Yeah, nope. Rings are no.
Go for recording. Studios.
Least for me. Anyway, folks.
Thank you to our patrons and Spotify subscribers.
Those are both the most direct ways to support the show with
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history of Westeros.com using the big donate button.
Thanks as well to Nina for her. Great takes worked out a lot of
good details there. She had a lot of good insight as
well and we're looking forward to having her on the show in two
weeks so that's great. And thanks as well to Joey Jesse
and bran and Michael. Clarke, felled for our Music.
Our videos Maps, guys are amazing, Michael.
Farr photos back in the map game.
Again, he takes he comes in and out of it, you know, and this
Creative Energy company Are bland suddenly he has
westerland's and the North and progress.
But all of a sudden he was like, I'm switching to this and that's
how the creative process works. So of it up that is needed.
You can never predict where energy plans so what would you
which also means that we might switch out?
The maps eventually here. Yeah, I haven't switched out
about a while because I do like the known world one.
Don't want to but I should put it out for the stormlands and
whatnot. Eventually absolutely.
Speaking of which I've got Michelle yeoh and across the
Tiger Hidden Dragon poster behind me who's up.
For best actress the Oscars. I'm excited to watch right after
our podcast here and such a good movie.
I loved everything. I'm yeah, so good.
I agree. I'm waiting to see who wins, but
I'm going to put a little woman at reviews of all the best
picture nominees and at the last one I saw was women talking
which man at blew me away. I highly recommend definitely
subscribe. You watching one minute Clips.
We definitely subscribe to dancing Sean on YouTube if you
want to catch his reviews on the best picture nominees and On his
other top. So good to have a subscription
locked in already. So whenever things come out,
you're ready for. All right, folks, that is it for
this episode of history of Westeros podcast.
We will see you next time, you know what to do in the meantime.
LR reread us On his other top. So good to have a subscription
locked in already. So whenever things come out,
you're ready for. All right, folks, that is it for
this episode of history of Westeros podcast.
We will see you next time, you know what to do in the meantime.
LR reread us