Hello and welcome back everybody to the beginning of our Season 2
coverage for House of the Dragon.
Starting with this very special episode, our schedule is as
follows. Every Monday we do non spoilery
reviews. At. 6 Eastern and on Saturday we
do preview episodes which are full of spoilers at 3:00
Eastern. We'll have some content on
Wednesdays around 7 Eastern, some live streams, some pre
prepared scripted content, TBD. Or just go to our YouTube
channel and click on the live tab.
As you can see here, a lot of you send in great questions for
Ryan Condall and we came up with some of our own.
Let's get to it. We interviewed Ryan Condall 2
episodes into season one almost two years ago now.
Here we are just before season 2.
We'd like to revisit some questions from last time to
start off and share some effusive comments as well, then
get into some heavier questions. We had listeners calling you
things like the showrunner that was promised and, and marvelling
about you, you know, your passion and knowledge and, and
just being a fan like the rest of us.
And we completely agree. We've we've seen lots of
evidence of that. And there's this photo that I
think encapsulates this vibe really well.
And in the Entertainment Weekly spread that has you on set, like
in the midst of everything, you have your headphones on and
there's a whole bunch of things happening around you.
And it's kind of iconic, I think, because it's like you're
in the middle of it, which is appropriate because you're the
showrunner, but you have your headphones on, you're very
focused. You're thinking about what you
need to think about, but you're smiling, which to me is like,
that's what really makes it all puts it all together because
you're really in your element. You're doing what you wanted to
do and that it's just, I think it's perfect.
So I wanted to start with that and get your reaction to how
things are going so far. Great, thank you.
Thank you guys for having me on. I love the service that you do
for greater fandom and and you have fans within our show that
say that this is, you know, one of the very top, you know, I
think pieces of fan content, shall we call it.
I hate that word, but I think it's fair in this created for
around the universe. So, so well done to you guys and
appreciate all of the, you know, the, the support that you give
the show because I think that was very important, particularly
in season one when we were trying to, you know, make carve
out our way in, in the, the greater lexicon and, and lore
of, of Westeros. So we so we really appreciate
that. Yeah.
I mean, things are we're at a fever pitch right now.
Sort of everything is going on at once.
Press and promotion have begun for season 2.
We are still in in the post process and will be for some
weeks to come. We are.
In fact, I came up to this from mixing episode 4, doing the
sound mix on episode 4. So I'm not doing the mix, but
I'm listening to the mix and giving notes to our lovely sound
team. So, yeah, we're right, you know,
we're right in it. And episodes are being delivered
kind of, you know, Fast and Furious now so that they can be
subtitled and dubbed and all those fun things that that
happen as they go around to the international territories.
And, you know, press really kicks off kind of today,
tomorrow for me for the next like two weeks straight of
answering lots of questions and talking about the show.
And yeah, it'll be, it'll be, you know, like I said, fast and
furious and fun. We have like there's like three
different premiere events that I'm that I'm going to and, and
yeah, in like 3 different cities in three different time zones.
So it's, yeah, it's pretty, pretty, pretty nuts.
And then and then, you know, shortly thereafter, season 2
will be done, dust and delivered.
And then we're kind of off, you know, off in the early days of
of Season 3 as the the dragon has three heads all at once.
It's always nice trying to eat me.
All three heads always trying to eat you that's a lot that
actually brings me to a question we had scheduled for a little
later, but it's just kind of sticking on topic here thing
hearing you talk about listening to the the sound mix and giving
notes on that. It's always a a curiosity to a
lot of us what things you personally take a hand in and
what things you have to delegate because there's so much to do as
a showrunner. So like what level of
involvement do you have say in the trailers like what they can
reveal and what they can't? Because that's obviously a
pretty big deal, what they are, what they're going to.
You all know that we scrutinize every second of those trailers.
So you must want to be careful about what gets included and
what doesn't. And we're curious where that how
that decisions gets made. Yeah, I'm very careful about all
that stuff. And they, and look, HBO is
great. They're wonderful partners and
they, they do very much care about what the showrunner
thinks. So they do share everything.
As with anything, television is a collaborative medium.
You're constantly collaborating with, with the artists around
you and also the, the needs of the, of the corporation and the
needs of the marketing team to promote your show so that people
will come and be excited to watch it.
And marketing marketing is a one of those particular kind of push
pulls where they, you know, they always want to, as is their job,
they want to dazzle the audience with as much memorable water
cooler imagery as they, as they can and, and sound bites and
things like that. And I'm in a place where I have
to sort of play the game of like, which shell are we willing
to turn over? You know, for me, it's really
just I want to preserve the experience for the audience
who's watching the show for the first time so that the surprises
happen in in the well crafted dramatic reveals that we've
worked for two years now to create versus in a trailer or in
a, you know, in an interview or something like that.
So, so they do show me everything.
The trailers are made, aren't made by our post team 'cause
they're very busy making episodes.
So this tend to be made by a marketing, you know, an
advertising agency, a marketing agency that HBO partners with
and then they send over, you know, here's here's here's the
thing that we're happy with. And then is there anything in
here that concerns you? And then we talk and there's
sort of a back and forth. Sometimes I actually rewrite the
dialogue a little bit in the sense that like, you know, as we
know from trailers, sometimes we put together, there are
sentences or conversations that are put together for the sake of
the trailer that aren't that really that way this place the
show. So sometimes I'm not really
rewriting, but it's sort of like editing so that, well, I don't,
you know, I'll say, sometimes I don't think the show really
delivers on that point, but I think this is a fair one to do.
You know, I make suggestions and things and things like that.
And sometimes I'll suggest a different a different shot.
And then there's also, frankly, there's visual effects concerns
that come into it too, with what our team can deliver in time
because the trailers happened so much earlier than the show does.
And as you know, visual effects, particularly with Dragons, run
right up to the end in in terms of iterations and and passes to
some things aren't possible to deliver in the trailer, which is
why in early trailers you don't see a lot of Dragons because the
Dragons don't exist. Yet and then.
In the last final trailer there a bunch of those dragon shots
were actually already done. So, so those were things that we
could we could share. So that that's kind of the
process on that. They do involve me with
everything. Cool, that's good to know.
You know, we noticed that in the trailers ourselves.
We love, we love when we noticed that that happened, for example,
like with Brooks Rest or something like that.
Really, they're not being sneaky here.
They just didn't have that done. Yeah, didn't have didn't have
the castle yet on. The subject of sets and whatnot,
now that we're a couple seasons in and you've been on a lot of
sets, which one was your favorite?
Which one like got you like, oh, this, this is it.
This is what it's all about. I mean, I'm, it's such a
privilege and delight to be working with the great Jim Clay,
who is just a master designer and really everything he builds
down to little, you know, little funeral altars that that he
builds out on our locations are just incredible and they're
always real and in world. But for me, I think the, the one
set that stands out the most this season is probably
Harrenhal. And people probably know from
reading the book that Harrenhal plays a big role in, in this
part of the story. But what, what our team built
for that I'm very excited for people to see 'cause I think
it's a, a wholly, wholly unique set and, and castle and, and
world. And I'm, I'm, it is such a
presence in the lore of, of this universe that I'm, I'm excited
for, for our, our version of it, our take on it.
Yeah, we'll get to maybe see some parts that we haven't of
it. That's that's really exciting,
you know? Yes.
That's real big. Yeah, there's room for places we
haven't seen there, that's for sure.
It's so huge. Yeah, it's so, it's so it's the
biggest castle in Westeros. And and you know, the set, the
set that we built is huge, but obviously the set is not the
entire castle. But I think with the clever sort
of use of location work, we have exterior back lots and then we
have a bunch of interiors that we built for.
You really do get a sense of the massive scale of the place in a
way that I don't think we have. Before.
Oh, that's cool. On TV.
Well, Speaking of, yeah, you you guys took the chance to make
some elements of the show more book accurate this time, like
the Iron Throne, and that's it was done in a way that's
explainable. Like, yeah, that could have just
reduced that later. Were there any discussions of
changing other things like making Valyrian steel swords a
little darker or Targaryen eyes purple or anything like that?
Or was that just like, Nah, it's it's too late or, or something
like that? Yeah.
Well, the Valyrian steel I think we got right.
I'm actually pretty proud of where we got to with that, where
it's readable on screen, particularly in the, in the
close-ups. And if you, I mean, anybody who
cares, there is the scene close-ups of the, of the props
and they're beautiful and they're actually made in the,
they're, they're made. It's folded steel.
It's, it's, it's, it's Poly steel.
So there's more than one kind of steel sort of fused together.
And that's what creates that the swirl, the sort of wood grain
pattern that's in, in the steel. And that's what George was
referring to Damascus steel, they would call it, which is
sort of a sort of a bit of a misnomer cause Damascus is a
place and not a thing. But it's Damascus seal is a fine
word for it. It's pattern welded steel is
usually what what is creates that effect, the wood grain
effect, the swirls and the dark smoke and all the things that
George describes in the book. But I think we've done a really
good job of making that present and readable on the weapons.
But you do have to get kind of close to them really see it.
But I think it makes the blades generally darker and things like
that. So we so we did do that and that
and that was present on these props in the original series.
It's just as, you know, we had more resources at hand when we
were making these things, particularly in season one when
ice and long claw and the cats paw dagger and all those things
were were, you know, were made that we just, you know, the
technology is better. We're you know, we're we're in a
better place with that. As far as the purple eyes.
I mean, it's something we debated.
I think David and Dan made the right call in the original show
in in not doing it because it is it is a visual effects
boondoggle, especially over 8 episodes and with as many
Targaryens as we have. And I just think it's it's an
element that I do love from the book.
But when you actually see it, it does become a bit fantasy.
And because the Targaryens already stand out so much
because of their silver hair and their Dragons and Titan world
that they live in, it feels like it it it others them in a way
that makes them feel not like everybody else in in the room.
And sometimes it's helpful and other times it's you wanna have
a human, a real, meaningful human connection.
And all of these people's eyes are so beautiful the way that
they are that I like leaving them untouched.
Well said. What have been some of the
highlight moments from your Props podcast?
The stuff Dreams are made of so far?
Do you have any upcoming episodes you want to tease?
I've been listening. I've most recently listened to
the How to Ride Your Dragon episode.
That was very informative. A lot of us are so curious about
how the stuff is made because, I mean, they've been Dragon movies
before, but you guys are really taking it to another level.
I mean, this is just way more than than what has existed in
pretty much any production I've ever seen.
Yeah, I mean upped the game again this year.
As you will see, the technology is all taking steps up and
improved 'cause as you, as you go and make these things, you
sort of iterate the, the, the, the toys and the tools that you
make. So that the, the rig got a
little better, the saddles got a little better.
I think the camera, the, the camera arm that we're using,
it's all very technical. But all that stuff kind of
improved this year. That was a Mike Dawson episode.
Mike was our special effects supervisor, department head.
So he works in all, he, he creates all of the fire and the
rain and also, you know, anything that involves a multi
articulated dragon riding rig. His department's responsible for
building all that stuff. So yeah, I mean, we're actually,
our season finale airs today, which is we're recording this
May 22nd. So check, check that out.
And we'll, we'll be off for probably, you know, a couple
weeks and then we'll come back in the in the summer as new
auctions come around and things to talk about.
But it's yeah, it's, it's been fun.
It's really enjoyable. And we do, we do plan to have
more key crew from the show on in the future.
I just have to figure out like, you know, sort of a topic
around, you know, ways to have people on.
So we're not just doing the hey, we have this person from that
that show everybody likes and listen to the podcast, which we
try to make it pointed and relevant.
I highly recommend that episode, everybody.
Once again, it's the stuffed dreams are made of podcasts that
that Ryan does with David Mandel, who we love.
Who we love David Mandel. Yeah, we love so many of the
shows he's made too. Or big comedian delight.
Yeah, so big. Lots of great takes in that one.
You'll hear about like famous directors like Steven Spielberg
and and there's some great anecdotes in that one that
that'll make you chuckle. Yes, it's our it's our movie
collecting podcast and we actually did do an episode with
Peter Janson, who is the guy that made our made dark sister
and black fire. He's a real blacksmith, a real
sword maker. There's a it's a it's a prior
episode from a couple years ago, but you can go search it in the
history and find it's a fascinating discussion with a
guy who actually makes like real swords the old way that they
were made thousands of years ago and did it for our show.
So really incredible. Wow, that's really cool.
What about things that you've taken for yourself Hot.
Any hot D props that you you own or that you're particularly
proud of, or that that you want to take home that you haven't
yet? Yes, I do.
I do have stuff, of course, things that leave with me.
Yeah, I mean, I have I have a couple of a couple of things.
I have a, a, a squishy dragon egg that got that got damaged
that all of that I loved and took when Damon and Ranira were
playing dragon egg football, bridge of Dragonstone.
So they made a squishy, a squishy version of that.
So it was safe for the safe for the actors.
It's like a nerf. It's a nerf version, but you
can't actually tell it's nerf until you pick it up, which I
just loved about it. And, and I have, I have one of
one of Damon's dinged up tournament helmets from the from
the tournament, the first episode just because I love that
design so much. That one got kind of yeah, they
were getting like sort of damaged taking them on, taking
them off on on set. And the, the wings were made
soft for safety and all that. So, so I just grabbed one that
they that was sort of beat up because I love, I love that
stuff. But yes, love, love all that,
love all that stuff. I'm.
Going to talk to you about one of my favorite props.
This is a listener question as well from listener Dom
Tartaglia. He asks which small council orb
is your favorite? And I want to add on and say,
yeah, we want the orbs. I mean, orbs, those are great
inventions, by the way. Yes.
I love this idea. Yeah, that was actually, that
was, that was Claire Richards and who's our set decorator in
her department. I forget who actually had had
the idea. It might have been Ellie, Ellie
Murphy, who was also on the podcast at some point.
As lovely as our our prop maker. I forget whose idea it was, but
it was essentially like, we know this is kind of, you know, it's
kind of not silly, but sort of unnecessary.
But we, they love this idea of there there being this bit of
formality and taking a seat at that, at that table.
And I loved it as soon as they pitched.
And of course it's props and physical interaction with, with
beautiful things. Probably Viserys's would be my
favorite from the first series 'cause it was just so ornate and
beautiful. There's a bunch of new cool
ones. We actually, they, they actually
made them. You'll see it this season.
They're a touch larger than they were.
And they're all, they're all very intricate and beautiful.
And it's funny 'cause the characters, the, the characters,
the actors that interact, although they, they get very
attached to it and they really don't touch my orb, don't touch
my ball as they go and they go and, and sit in and, and yeah,
it plays. There's one that actually plays
a, a, a, a bit of a story role this year.
So I will, I will leave it at that.
But there's a there's a nice one.
Yeah, yeah, poor that one. That's also true.
The killed poor Beesbury. Did he get to keep his orb?
Or we let him. He left with it still embedded
in his eye socket. So.
Yeah, Brutal. Brutal.
Great. Bill Patterson.
We use trackball mice in this household and I always really
want one that'll just slot right into my trackball like it's my
fantasy. Yeah.
I'll talk, I'll talk to products about that.
I think I like, I really like this idea.
You should be able to, you should be able to go online and
3D print your own. I think we should be able to do
that. Absolutely.
It'll it'll sell. Moving on to some maybe
character specific stuff. Despite all the tragedy
surrounding her, we love the development of Helena.
The the maesters didn't record much about her personality,
which is what you would expect from maesters.
Unlike make her famous ancestor Danice the dreamer, Helena
doesn't have a lot of book, doesn't have a book of her
prophecies to prove that she has this ability.
Have any other characters like taking note of it?
Or is that something we can read into like her family or any
servants or anything that have they caught even a hint of this
or we're just curious about her in general?
I mean, I think, I think Helena is regarded as a bit odd by
those around her. And I think some people do pay a
bit of closer attention to her and that, you know, the, the her
story is, is developing. We actually do spend a lot of
time with Helena, who's played wonderfully by Fiesta Ban in in,
in the story and and we do get a lot more time with her in season
2. So I don't, you know, don't want
to give away or say anything too much, but it it certainly is a a
feature of this. But you have to also remember
that like we're we're telling a story during a historical period
where people who didn't have terms for things.
So I think they just a kind of, you know, she's tend to regard
it as an oddity and thus oftentimes dismissed, I think,
or or ignored or they're just used.
Oh, that's Helena. But there there definitely are
people who. Are paying closer attention.
Cool. On the subject of people who
might be paying close attention to Targaryen activities, we
noticed some sheep were included in the scene of Aegon's
coronation and it got us wondering if there's any chance
the shepherd was part of the crowd watching Aegon's
coronation. This is a question from listener
Danny Black. Said.
Those sheep really got us. Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah. I mean, that's so the sheep the
sheep thing there. That story will get connected
more, I think as as as you watch the show, one of the I mean, one
of the things we were sort of fascinated with this season is
like, you know, Dragons as real World War machines and what that
involves. And if you imagine a bunch of
these rather large creatures who probably have rather large
appetites that are more dormant in times of peace, once they get
really active and are moving around a lot, there is a, there
is a tax that comes along with that in the form of, of meat and
feed. And how does that affect the
local economy? So there is a bit of that
underlying story that you'll, you'll see, you know, running,
running through the show As to the shepherd, like I, I do love
that. I do love that story in the
future from the book. I mean, he's a resident of
King's Landing and, and has been for some time in that story,
sort of part of his story. So I think you have to imagine
he's, he's out there in, you know, in the population and is
observing and, and, and watching.
And I think that's the fun with this show is that we spend so
much time in these very, you spend more time in these locales
like King's Landing. So the city itself kind of
becomes a character. So as the story marches on, when
you introduce new elements of that world because you've spent
time in the world itself, they often, even though we're meeting
this person for the first time, maybe in the, I don't know, 20th
episode, you understand the world around them.
So they feel realized because the world around them is
realized. And that's, that's the hope of
spending all that character work in, in, in and around King's
Landing. And we've done even more of that
this year that, you know, the the small folk definitely do
feature in a way that I don't think they did in season one.
Oh, that's exciting. We'd love to hear that.
Kind of brings me to a related question I think from one of my
favorite listener names, Baseborn man Jack says in Game
of Thrones. Holy shit a great name.
In in Game of Thrones some characters were off page for
multiple books, as in the case of say Theon Greyjoy, but they
chose to adapt his story by showing what was happening to
him during that off page interim period.
Will House of the Dragon choose to do anything similar with some
fan favorite characters who do have large stretches of off page
time? You don't have to get too into
details, but are you adding that type of material or choosing to
just let them be off page? I mean I it's always a case by
case basis. I mean the real thing with
television it is apov medium, meaning it's told in point of
view and I think the best television is told in it.
It's told in in sometimes one characters or multiple
characters POV. And for me, I, I, I always
gravitate towards point of view stories and, and film and
television versus kind of objective God like views.
We're OK, we're over here now with this person.
We're over here now the way that the way that we like to tell the
story because it is so huge and world spanning is that we follow
we we link in with certain point of views.
In this case, in this show, it's often the larger Targaryen
family that we're following this, this mixed and blended
family of, of Viserys and his offspring and their, you know,
cousins and all the blood and that crazy mixed up bloodline.
So I think I think that's the kind of story that we're
telling. It is Apov story.
So take that as you as you will, but that is the general approach
to how how we follow the story along.
And sometimes the a device that I think works in a, in a linear
novel format sometimes lends itself well to to the adaptation
television. Other times, in order to keep
that character story alive, you do have to follow them and
figure out, you know, what they're up to.
And, and sometimes that's the fun of this adaptation is
getting to fill in those blanks. We know that the character
started here and ended up started at point A and ended up
over point D And what's the B&C along the way and what would
that have looked like? And you have to contend with the
multiple sources in Fire and Blood which give you, sometimes
they give wildly different takes, sometimes they're pretty
aligned, but sometimes they give wildly different.
You have to choose which one to go with or maybe do something
that maybe pays a little bit of service to both in order to
explain how that view could have developed.
And yeah, it's it's, it's pretty neat.
We have some new merch in our threadless shop.
We have these Dance of the Dragons tour poster style
T-shirts. I mean, you could get them on
other products if you so chose, or you could get them as a tour
poster. They're blacks versus greens,
and they list the various altercations of the Dance of the
Dragons. So check that out at
historyofwesteros.com at the shirts link, or you can go
directly to historyofwesteros.threadless.com
and tag us in any pictures of you in your new merch.
The dragon bond is something that people are really
fascinated by. Sometimes it seems like a human
dog relationship where the dog seems to kind of understand, but
there's but at other times it seems like maybe there's a
little more going on. Is that something that gets
explored more this season or something that you've like to
think about, or anything you can say about the dragon bond I
think people would love to hear. Yeah, I mean, it's an important
feature of the show. And I think the the fun and the
challenge of making House of the Dragon is I think that there are
so many Dragons and dragon riders, which creates a, a, a, a
really rich tapestry. But if you do the same thing all
the time with if everybody has the same, the same claiming
experience, the same bonding experience, the same
relationship with their dragon, it it can become a bit, you
know, why are we doing this? This is an opportunity we felt
in the TV show for some, some some world building.
So yes, I think you've intuited the right thing that some of
those relationships are different than others.
Some some are seem more intuitive.
I mean, the way we kind of look at it is it's like, you know, in
in the world of of Star Wars, the the Jedi's connection with
the Force, some just have this more, this a stronger
connection. Some of it manifests in a
different way. And I think that can be a number
of things. It's the bond with the Dragon.
It's the time spent in the bond. It's flight hours in the
cockpit, all, all, all the all those things.
But I think, I think, yeah. I mean, the, the, the individual
riders bond with the dragon is going to be different on a rider
to rider and dragon to dragon, dragon level.
And that is intentional. And sometimes it's in the
subtext of the story, and other times I think we learn more, a
little more into it in the text of the storytelling.
That's neat, and I'm sure some of that has to do with the
personalities of the riders and and the Dragons too 'cause I
know you all got to correct play around with different versions.
It's not just we just got Daenerys basically in the
original show. So there wasn't a lot of, there
was just the kind of one experience, maybe John as well,
but that that wasn't super developed.
So yeah, I think people are super excited about that.
Yeah. And then Daenerys in the
original series, it was. That was a world where nobody
had seen Dragons and, you know, 150 years.
So that was the concept in that world.
Building is what, you know, what does introducing a dragon into
this world do and what happens? And Denarius doesn't have any
training for it. I mean, she can go back and read
books, I guess, but there's no one there.
There are no dragon keepers there or other, you know, older
dragon riders have been doing it for a while to give her tips and
advice. Whereas this world, Dragons are
a feature of the infrastructure. So there's dragon pits and
dragon monks and dragon keepers, and when they fly over King's
Landing, a lot of people don't even look up because that's
living near Heathrow Airport, you see.
You see 740 sevens. Go by all the time.
It's just a it's just a different world.
But it that requires our world to to to paint it into the
subtext a little bit more than it it would be in a world where
Dragons were brand new. Right on.
So now that we're at the point where they've all or nearly all
been put on the screen, who is your favorite dragon?
Or what's your favorite dragon rider relationship perhaps?
And has that changed maybe? I mean, I do love them all.
It's so, it's so fun and I get to spend so much time with them
because of the intricate making of one and how it's how it's
designed in 2D and then modeled into 3D and, and then as they
come alive in the, in the sound world with our incredible sound
team as they develop their personalities that way.
I mean, I, you know, I, it's a maybe a basic answer.
I, I go back to Cyrax. I mean, that was the first
dragon that we really saw rendered.
And I think her relationship with Ranira is so specific.
And I just I, I, I really love it.
And Cyrax has to now in a way that Ranira is the is, is a
ruler, a sovereign. Cyrax has to kind of take on
that mantle and now of, of being, you know, being a, I
don't know, an emblem of the crown in a way.
And I just really enjoy, I love that design, particularly her,
you know, her, her crown and, and the rendering of that
dragon. So I've I've always gravitated
towards that. But there there are.
There are a number of new Dragons this year that I can't
talk about now, but but I really enjoyed introducing all of them
into the show. It's almost like we asked you
which of your children is your favorite.
So sorry about that. Yeah.
One of the Dragons that we saw last season was Vermathor and we
got to hear Vermathor's little lullaby.
We also got to hear Nymeria's song that season.
Are there any new in world songs to look forward to either this
season or in the works for a future season?
Is that on your radar? Yes there is.
There are. Nice, Yes, Exciting.
We love. Those yeah, we do love those.
They were fun to sing along. Yeah.
One of our favorite aspects of season one was how you guys
fleshed out the relationships and dynamics between the
characters more than in Fire and Blood, which is to be expected.
It's a history book. But you all did such a fantastic
job of bringing these characters more to life.
For example, we we thought Allison and Aegon's relationship
was fascinating, a lot of real world mother son troubles that
you might see with all this power thrown in, which is quite
a toxic thing to put into any relationship.
But which relationships were you maybe most excited to explore
going into season 2? Or are there any any particular
that maybe caught you by surprise as you were developing
them? And or maybe the opposite just
in general? We'd love to hear about that
process. Yeah, I mean, I mean, look
again, that's the big, the big challenge and also the fun of of
adapting a book like Fire and Blood, which is a history book.
It isn't, it is intentionally an outline of events that happened.
And it's not a, it's, it's not a, a, a, a narrative where
you're inside a character's head the way you are in a, you know,
a Song of Ice and Fire in the, in the text of those pages.
So it does require a lot of us to differentiate these
characters and imbue them with flaws and faults and and
personalities and wants and dreams and things like that that
aren't necessarily painted in so clearly on the on the page.
And that's frankly, that's the thing that attracts me to
dramatic writing is those interrelationships.
And we have such a wonderful ensemble cast of characters on
this show with great characters and also played by great actors,
that a lot of the fun of that is finding those textured
relationships in the show. And I would say, look, they're
all great. We have this cast is a garage
full of Ferraris. It's such a delight to walk in
every day and get to take take somebody for a spin with your
dialogue. And they make they make, they
make everybody, they make everybody look better.
You know, the writers writers, especially with the way they
perform this. But I think the thing that I'm
most excited about sort of on a, on a larger dramatic level,
narrative level in season 2 is just getting to live with all
the kids. The kids that we barely got to
know in season one, the Allisons children, Amond and Egon and
Helena, and then Ranier in her relationship with Jace.
And then on on some level too, with, with, you know, Bayla and
Reyna and their complicated relationship with their father
and their and, and, you know, their their family and where
they fit into everything. And I think just all of those
interrelationships, the way they interact with the adults and
also with each other does create a lot of the the dramatic
texture of season 2. And I'm excited for people to
see it because it's just a cast of these wonderful young actors
and, and I think they're really going to shine in a way that we
they just didn't have time to in season one because they didn't
have the screen time. True.
On the subject of characters that you maybe don't have screen
time for, we understand. We like to refer to the law of
conservation of character as we got used to it for Game of
Thrones. But I I got a know for my own
purposes as a queer woman. There were three fairly notable
queer slash sapphic relationships in the dance
portion of Fire and Blood, which was really pleasant.
I'm not going to spoil any of them for our listeners, but I'm
curious if we're going to see any of those relationships on
the screen either this season or later.
Or adapted 'cause sometimes you might merge some of that into an
existing character. But are we going to see any of
that type of relationship going forward?
I mean, I will just say stay tuned without wanting to give
anything away, but I, I, you know, I think going back to the
previous question, I just think that's part of the textured fun
of this world. And we know that we just got to
spend a lot more time with people and get into their heads
a lot more and, and their wants and dreams and things that
they're thinking about. So I would just say, you know,
stay, stay tuned. This continues to be a very rich
and textured world. Awesome, awesome.
We got the chance to hear Matthew Needham speak about his
character Laurie's at the convention in Los Angeles that
you spoke to remotely, and he had some extremely insightful
things to say about his character.
But of course, he's not the one writing him.
So his take, as brilliant as it was, isn't from the perspective
of of the people who invented this character or fleshed him
out. Who do you think that Larry's
maybe has the most in common with, either from the series or
maybe from a completely different series?
Because he's he's fascinating and interesting and really fits
in that role of that long line of expert intriguers that we've
come to expect from Game of Thrones.
And he hasn't even has a name that kind of lines up very well
with that. What what, what?
Just speak to us about Larry's and how y'all designed him and
and things like that. Yeah, Matt Needham is just a
fantastic actor. And he's he's, he's one of the,
he's one of the many casts on the show that you write a line
for and you're just delighted to to watch him read it on set and
see how he turns around and what he does with it.
And we, we love, we love writing for Matt.
And also, I would say a character who's very unlike the
character that he plays on on screen, which I think is
important to do to differentiate.
But he, I mean, look, that's the fun of this world.
It's, it is an escapist fantasy world as as intricate and as
adult as it is. You know, the song of Ice and
Fire is a world of archetypes. I mean, part of the, the genius
of, of the way George drafted characters, I think in, in the
Song of Ice and Fire was taking archetypes like the Lancelot
character and Jamie and sort of saying, well, what if Lancelot
really existed and he was a complete Dick mess?
And how do we, how do we, how do we take him and turn that on its
ear? And then, and then, you know,
create an evil character out of Lancelot, but then redeem him.
And I think, I think that's the fun of this show.
And then and then because Song of Ice and Fire is now so world
renowned and famous, you have archetypes within the world and
the, the schemer, the court, the courtly schemer that's, you
know, not a not a knight, but a, you know, warrior of the mind, I
think has become an archetype and in a good way in this show.
And we're of course, we know Varys and Littlefinger very well
at this point. And Larys fits into that rubric,
But I think he's different because he is, you know, as
we've seen, I think he's just, he's detached from human emotion
in a, in a way that maybe the others aren't.
And, you know, Varys was, you know, loyal servant of the of
the realm to the end. I mean, he sort of plays like a
mincing schemer. But then we kind of realized
that there is an honorable streak to him.
And Littlefinger, you know, he's damaged and broken in his own
way, but he's also, you know, he also has real human wants and
needs And and they're they're they're twisted at times, but he
does there, there is a there is a core sort of injury.
He does have the, you know, the guy, the the bad guy in
Ratatouille. We realize at the end that,
yeah, it's just this this there's this core injury in his
in his in his childhood. And I think Littlefinger has has
a similar streak. He was the bullied kid who was
in love with the girl that, you know, got the jock and he was
the nerd that didn't and that and that sort of defined him as
a character. Laris is, is very different.
And we'll see how that develops this year.
I mean, he certainly he fits into the archetype, but of
course we're not just creating one of the one of the old
characters from Thrones and and I think you see where it goes.
It has we have many seasons ahead for for for laris of
stories to tell. So, so I'm, I'm, I'm pleased to
know that we have such a great actor piloting him because it
means that we can kind of go anywhere with him.
Yeah. Oh, totally agree.
Well, he does really come out as a different character.
And yeah, despite being in that, fitting into that archetype so
neatly. On the subject of modifying
fleshing out characters, this is a listener question from
Betrayed King that I'm quite interested in.
When you're creating or modifying original characters
for the show, what goes into the decision making process when
you're deciding when to make changes?
Like names, for example in some minor arcs surrounding the
dance? The example I'll give is
modifying Samuel Blackwood and Amos Bracken to William
Blackwood and Gerald Bracken in season one.
We understand that it has to happen sometimes, but I'm really
curious to know what factors play into the decision of when
you decide to rename a character and when you decide to keep
their original name. I mean, you know that those
characters are actually never really named on screen.
So I think that's probably. Being.
Taken from yeah, it might not be, you know, don't don't always
trust the source on it unless it's actually they're actually
name name checked interesting in in in the story.
And I think sometimes with characters like those, we try to
be rather oblique because we unless we need to name them.
Sometimes it's better not to because it's it's easier to hold
the continuity of the story. And look, sometimes you things
you plan far in advance and other things are it's the nature
of storytelling you to kind of develop as you go along.
Remember that you know Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father until
Empire Strikes Back. As true.
So, so I think, you know, we always try to hold true to the,
the text of the book and particularly when the character
has a, a true sort of rooting in the history and, and, and in the
timeline of the history. And if they go on to have
important sons or daughters, we want to keep all those things
intact. So that, you know, anything that
we're kind of, you know, fussing with in this timeline doesn't,
you know, affect things on, on, on, down, on, down the road.
And we we try to hue to the, you know, to the, to the text when,
whenever possible. Sometimes because time has been
compressed a little bit in the show, you know, we, we compress
the time as as many as as many years as were covered by the
first season. It was still a little more
compressed than actually those those years happened between
Rainier's childhood and the beginning of the Dance of the
Dragons. So I think some of that requires
a bit of, you know, shuffling around, but I don't think we've
any made any big moves in, in that way intentionally because
we always have an eye on on, you know, how is this going to
affect this show and possibly other spin offs and things on on
down the road. We're very we're very keen to
that. And then thankfully I have, I
have not just me, but other fire and blood history experts in the
room with me to sort of check on that stuff as we go.
Yes, indeed you do. You know, we actually were kind
of tickled by there being different Blackwood bracket
names because it just kind of speaks to the feud being so
eternal that there's always going to be another Blackwood
and bracket. You know, we, we kind of liked.
It they, they just hate each other.
They, they, they will fight. They will fight over everything
and anything. We just did a full episode on
that feud a couple weeks ago. So we're we're we're recently
very fresh on that, but turning to an entirely different long
running aspect of Westeros and the entire world that the
supernatural elements of the world building something that
George uses very carefully and cautiously, but they're always
present. Are there any particulars there
that you feel drawn to or that you wanted to draw out more?
And do you kind of lean on George's style for that or do
you kind of have to do it differently because it's a
different medium or just any, any kind of commentary on where
you get your inspiration for the supernatural elements and, and
if you want to speak to that in general, we would love to hear.
Yeah, for sure. And look, I, I love this stuff.
I mean, it's what attracted me to I the thing that I remember
the thing grabbing me when I first read Game of Thrones, the
the novel Game of Thrones, you know, probably 25 years ago at
this point, was that that great opening prologue at the top, top
of the book with Waymar Royce, you know, wandering around the
North and the reveal at the end. It feels like it feels so real
and just a, you know, a bunch of Rangers and Squires and things
outranging in a in a cold place. And then suddenly you realize
that there are ice monsters being dead and, and, and the
way, the way the weird played in with the, the, the very real and
textural world that George had created.
And then that, that always suck with me.
But I'm a weird fiction fan, you know, I love, I love all of that
stuff and Robert E Howard and, and Conan and HP Lovecraft.
And I love the way that stuff is realized in these very textured
worlds where it doesn't feel cast off and not special and
there's a cost to it. And it's not always fully
explained either, which I also think is important when you get
into the the didactic rules of of a magic system.
Those books interest me less than ones that are a little bit
more out there in the ether and not fully understood by the
characters that don't occupy that world.
So we definitely tried to stay true to George's world.
I think there's less fantasy, there are less fantasy elements
immediately apparent in the Dance of the Dragons other than
the giant Dragons. But that stuff is all very alive
in this world, as we know from A Song of Ice and Fire where you
have wargs and face changers and the undead.
And I'm not saying those things are in our show fire magic, but
the, those, those we know those systems exist in this world and,
and green magic and all those things.
So I think we've tried to, I love that stuff.
So I've definitely tried to, to employ it where it, it seems
sensible and like good storytelling.
And we're not just doing it gratuitously.
But but, but I, yeah, I, I, I love it all and I lean into it.
And I think, I think we're drawing, you know, drawing from
George's world and the way that this stuff has been rendered in,
in great kind of genre fiction. Great.
I think we have one final question to leave off with for
you. Last year we talked to you a bit
about some of your favorite other eras in Fire and Blood.
We wanted to get kind of a sense of you, your other interests in
the in the world. So I wanted to ask who's your
favorite Targaryen from a non dance era barring Egg, who you
mentioned last time and who everyone loves Egg?
Yeah, we probably love him even more now that we have a casting
and, you know, a head shaving video and all that.
We love that little boy, he's been so adorable.
But barring the Duncan Egg, mention who?
Who are some of your favorite Targaryens?
I mean, I immediately go to Bloodraven.
I just find Bloodraven absolutely fascinating.
Yeah, I would say Bloodraven or Vicenya.
I I I found a great affinity for Vicena in in writing this story
because her history is even though it's 100 years old in
this world, I think she cast this very tall shadow Egg on the
Conqueror is constantly mentioned in our show.
As we know everybody's invoking Egg On all the time like he's
this. Everything Egg On did was great
and and unimpeachable and if it was good enough for Egg On, it's
good. It's good enough for us, except
of course, for conquering Dorn, which he failed to do.
But I, I love the, I love the shadow that Vicenia casts over,
over our history, particularly as a strong female sovereign
type, even though she wasn't actually the sovereign in a
world where we have a, a female sovereign.
I will say, I just think that's a it's it's something that I got
more and more attracted to Vicenia in the writing and
creation of this show than I probably thought I would.
That's really cool. Yeah.
I remember last time we asked you about this era and you said
you were you were excited about Aegon the 2nd.
And that was a great comment, 'cause we, we were, we're all
seeing, you know, the, the dynamics of this character.
And you were right. You were right.
He is very, he's, he's a great, I wouldn't call him a villa, but
he's not a good guy either, you know.
I love to watch you're in for such a treat.
Tom is Tom Glencarny is such as such a genius and I just you're
in for you're just in for a treat with his portrayal of of
of Vagon. I mentioned that Game of Thrones
convention in Los Angeles, which he was on stage for several
times. And yes, he he dazzled us all.
His commentary was great, especially his time with Jack
Leeson. And they did a little skit about
being born of incest. And yeah, it really got to see
their chops there. They're such great guys.
Yeah, Eggon was born of state approved incest.
That's true. Joffrey, not so much.
That's a good term. State approved incest.
We'll remember that one. Well, Ryan, that's all the
questions we have. Thank you so much for your time.
I know you have so much to do. You're super busy.
The show comes out so soon. So I mean, I know you don't, you
don't do a lot of podcast interviews.
So we're particularly thankful for that.
And we'll be looking forward to all your I know you should give
a bunch of interviews coming out the next couple weeks.
We will be listening and reading them all.
We will be for sure, right. So, yeah, so.
Thank you guys. All right, thanks everybody.
We'll be back with more content soon.
Thanks again, Ryan. Well, that was a lot of fun.
We had a great time interviewing Ryan once again.
Our streaming schedule for season 2 is Mondays at six non
spoilery episodes, Saturdays at 3:00 Eastern spoilery episodes
where we talk about everything we know that might be coming.
No leaks, but definitely what we know from the books.
And some Wednesdays we'll have content at 7 Eastern, whether
scripted or live streamed, you'll find out.
And you can always check our YouTube channel.
The live tab has all the up to Those of you who who support us
and those of you who share the interview and share our content
in general, we appreciate it. You can also hit us up at
westeroshistory@gmail.com if you have any further questions or
comments. Until next time Valar reread us
the the.