Lord eddard Stark as the most featured character in the first
book. And by that, I mean, he has the
most chapters. Many people saw him as the main
character. Well, that notion seems long
gone. Now given how there is no main
character at All, In A Song of Ice and Fire, not a singular one
anyway. And of course, because well
Ned's did Ned's dead baby. How readers tend to see Ned.
Now is as a father figure in some ways fulfilling the tropes
and roles more common and storytelling for that type of
character while doing what George does.
So well, breaking a lot of those tropes and going against the
grain and some ways but not all, it's a huge part of how the
story begins. Ned gives bran more than one
teachable moment during that execution seen in this first
chapter and the things that happened just after he gets a
discussion about fear and the All these, the cam with caring
for a dangerous pet. But today, we're not here to
talk about how Ned educated as children were here to look back
and talk about how he was in turn educated by his parents and
siblings and those around him, it takes a village to raise a
child, they say. But in this case it's that's a
castle several surrounding Villages, or towns like the
winter town as we all know, or should know how apparent treats
their own children is deeply rooted in how they were treated
by their Her own parents in turn and of course, their parents
before them and other factors, of course.
But primarily parents here's a quote that expresses that quite
well, it all goes back and bacteria and thought to our
mothers and fathers and there's before them, we are puppets.
Dancing on the strings of those who came before us.
And one day, our own children will take of our strings and
dance on in our stead's it's a bit of a cynical take but you
know, this is Terry. So his parents are a little more
control are, his parents was a little more controlling than
most, not all parents view their children as marionettes.
Like he says, they're puppets dancing on strings, but we are
undeniably impacted by those who raised us whether good or bad,
or even if that impact comes from not being there at all
Tyrion, very much impacted by the lack of a mother.
Even though that's no, there's no direct impact in that.
There's a lot of indirect effects from that, they make
choices for us, parents do and the world around them pressures.
A lot of Has choices whether they're rich Nobles from
illustrious houses or whether they're orphaned in poverty or
something, similar to that Ned's upbringing.
In many ways though is a typical for a start.
Sure, much of it was typical. He trained for war.
He rode horses. Read and learn to write and math
and all that other aspects were not.
And some of those are painted as normal for us in a Game of
Thrones. And then throughout the passage
of the books, we learn actually, Lord Rickard Ned's father, Some
things differently, broke some traditions along the way, and
was involved in serious political Intrigue, alongside
that or? And because of that, you could
argue, which in itself was a bit of a tradition, among the Lords
of the north, meaning staying out of South foreign power
games, that's how it usually goes.
And young, Ned was not raised to rule, let alone play politics
with those far more versed in such and by the time he was
thrust in position as Lord of Winterfell.
His parents were gone and all but one of his siblings who join
the Nights Watch soon, after were all gone.
So he didn't have uncle's, or aunts or even cousins really to
help him though. He did have people like, maester
Luwin house, Cassell and others like old Nan, people who had
been around since he was a kid, but he was also raised partly in
the vale. So he did have insights about
the south that other starts would not have been privy to,
which was kind of the point of his father, putting him there in
the first place. So, we'll explore how that sets
him apart somewhat from previous Lord Starks not to mention of
course, that portion of his upbringing.
The veil is the reason he was so close to Robert and John Aaron
and a few others, which of course, is a huge part of how
the back story plays out with all that in mind.
It's no wonder we aren't trying to cover all of Ned's life in
one episode because his early life is so jam-packed.
We've got our hands full enough already.
With all that more on this episode of history of Westeros
podcast, Hello and welcome everyone.
It's not a fun topic. I think we've got lined up for
you today. How are you feeling today?
Sean you ready for this? So you were saying it slowly
revealed to us that Ned's upbringing maybe wasn't as
standard or traditional as it seemed at first.
And similarly, I think net is presented as a relatively
conservative character, like maybe not like conservativeness
sense of modern American politics but but conserved in
the idea that tradition, he's not quick action, you know, he's
kind of reserved. Personality and he's, you know,
from the north for things are not quite as Dynamic and
bustling and you know, maybe rooted in the old gods, you
know, they're the oldest house on and on, but all that said,
Ned is actually pretty Progressive.
He's pretty okay, with Aria learning how to fight with a
sword. And, you know, a lots of
elements of his Decisions and Outlook are much more
Progressive than you might think and maybe more Progressive than
even people in the might seem to be a more Progressive area.
Like King's Landing not that everyone here is necessarily
conservative but I feel like Ned would have led prejudices
towards gay people for example than the average person in
Kingsland. Yeah.
And maybe even in King's Landing, certain people like
tearing might be more okay with it.
But like we're not going to give you any power like it.
So we're about the objects of it whereas I wondered it might be
more, okay? The last word The Optics more
word about doing the right thing.
Anyway, we've got many thoughts along this line, General?
Yeah. You're absolutely right Arc
immediately. That's a good call.
So yeah, lots of things like lots of ideas, for what Ned
might have gone through and his childhood, and looking back it.
Why we got where we are now? Because of those reasons, shout
out to our good friend, Nina almost every episode features,
her thoughts, and I want to shout out her blog as I often
do. Good Queen Alia tumblr.com,
that's one. L in a lie.
Latest question there on on Ano waynwood and Harry Harding and
Sansa and talking about the possibilities of marriage and on
you as an advisor there, maybe even going to Winterfell and
whether that might happen. So it's basically an exploration
of what sansa's Entourage at least part of it might look like
when and if she return to Winterfell I'ma say win well I
won't say Yes we were. So we sometimes we throw these
ifs and there's a what half? A percent less than a don't
know. There's no percent chance.
He doesn't go back to work. Anyway, by the way, I skipped
past it with those thoughts, but I do have a drink here, with a
couple new things. There's a new Mountain Dew
flavor called Mountain. No purple Thunder her space.
Unlike tastes like grape medicine.
Tastes like fun banners. And there's a new Rebel flavor
called Juneberry, which also tastes kind of like purple
medicine is June. So it's appropriate that you're
But I also added the rainbow Naked drink and a raspberry
Sparkling Ice which makes up for the medicine flavor.
It's very pretty. Good is very red aqua color I
could see that being a Heart Tree read you know the red
leaves apart Fates in northern part 3 red I've got on my really
old Ned Stark on the Iron Throne Veil of Maya shirt build my has
metalcore Deathcore band that I've seen live a few times and
they had the shirt for sale which I'm pretty sure they
weren't licensed to sell but I bought it anyway.
And yeah there's no promotion. From on this stuff, can't even
see where it says bail Maya but you can see Ned, Sean beans
face. I made a mistake, I meant to
wear my Brands big shirt and just I just accidentally, I
forgot to change out of my bronzer in my 80s, Braun truss
rod to see a project to the Brand's.
So this episode was voted on by patrons.
Next week is going to be bail or breaks beer.
It's gonna be another one of these not live episodes that
we're going to record an advance and post people can still hang
out in the chat if they want. They're still going to be a
premiere. Be up at the usual time is a
live stream would be there. Just won't be.
We just won't be responding to live chats because we're
recording it in advance. But anyway, it should be
ultimately a very similar experience for the majority of
the office. If this episode ends, and you're
still wanting more, we have suggestions for related topics
to want things that come up in this one and we'll hit those at
the end along with the answer to this trivia question, which
will, which is, who is the first character?
We see take a drink of any kind of Beverage Ridge.
And a Game of Thrones / Song of Ice and Fire.
It's funny that I specified A Game of Thrones a song by Spire
because you, like, if I didn't say A Game of Thrones, or do you
think, whoa, is this no one? Take a drink until a Clash of
Kings. Ha ha.
It's like there's no one taking a sip of anything until the
second book like, yeah, people were just too busy, you should
wear those chapters are shorter and again, with Rosie didn't
have time for things like beverages, you know, everybody's
too busy. You know, one thing is he's that
you didn't really send her this episode around, but that was
prominent in my mind was the nature.
Versus nurture. Hmm bait.
If you do, you know we weren't talking about, you know, what
makes Ned, who he is, and how his youth went and how that
plays out. Since I don't have an exact note
to say right now, but I know I'm gonna have several thoughts on
that line. Come up right on the way.
It's a good place to be. I totally agree.
It is difficult to frame. This is nature versus nurture
without having first hand knowledge of Ned's upbringing,
but I agree that it still has a big place in this conversation
regardless. Yeah.
And so after this episode something I helped you get out
of it is in your Next reread. And I hope you do a next reread.
You will enjoy it thoroughly and a lot more understanding of why
Ned makes a decision. He does will come in that reread
because and why he reacts the way he does to certain things
why certain things really bother him, while he takes certain
things to Heart, why certain things?
He kind of shrugs off that you might think would batter more
and how so much of what's happening around him, reminds
him of his, teen years all over again.
History repeats itself for Ned Stark and a lot of very
uncomfortable ways and seeing a lot of the same things happen.
We love The same people, Robert Tywin, Jamie different houses,
if not the same individuals, and of course his own, family
upbringing is at the core of all this.
And let's start with a quote from a Game of Thrones.
Catland to, as net expresses frustration at his own
uncertainty, in the face of Roberts offer to marry Sansa to
Joffrey And I was only 12 when my father promised me to your
brother Brandon that brought a bitter twist in his mouth
Brandon yes, Brandon will know what to do.
He always did was all meant for Branding, you Winterfell
everything. He was born to be a king's hand
and father to Queens, I never asked for this cup to pass to
me. Perhaps not Catelyn said, but
Brandon is dead and the cup has passed and you must drink from
it, like it or not, and turned away from her.
Back to the night, he's just staring out in the darkness,
watching the moon and stars, perhaps, or perhaps the sentries
on the wall, Caitlin soften been to see his pain.
It was dark. He married her and Brandon's
voice as custom decreed, but shadow of his dead brother.
Still lay between them as did. The other shadow of the woman,
he would not name the woman. He had borne, his bastard son.
This passage is doing a heck of a lot of work, right?
It's tearing us towards believing wrongly that what cat
believes about Jon Snow's parentage, but Nez refused The
tell her the truth is rooted in his promise to Liana which is
part of his upbringing. Why he did that, why he was so
loyal to his sister? It's all a product of his
upbringing that devotion that love, as well as what he knows
about his best friend's views on targaryens.
He knows how Robert would react if that secret got out so that's
part of his difficulty here as well.
He thought his sister would marry his best friend Robert and
that Brandon would rule Winterfell.
So his life definitely didn't go the way he thought it would.
I mean who Who's it's they're predicting the death of most of
their family. So of course he didn't expect go
the way they did and they were given several apparent red
herrings about huijeong's mother is one of the prominent names is
a Shard Dane. Whom Ned might have married
instead of Caitlin Catlin, you got me saying Caitlin Sean
what's your Rara instead of Catelyn had things gone
differently. So when George r.r.
Martin writes that it's a shadow laying between them, it's not
just John's parentage. He means by there's a lot of
Shadows that Brandon's death left behind that Leon.
That's left behind that red cards, death Left Behind not to
mention stuff on cattle inside to, from her family, but it's a
bit too big of for us to bite off all at.
Once a day, Ned married Catland to preserve the arrangement made
by his father. He didn't get forced into it.
He wasn't told, you must marry this woman because I'm your lord
father, I mean, that would have happened that his father still
been alive, but he was the Lord of Winterfell.
When he married Catlin, he had the right to refuse that he
could have been. Nope, I think not.
And though, Ned was indeed, probably not that cut out to be
a hand of the king at least not in the times, he found himself
as hand of the king. He did turn out to be a great
Lord of Winterfell. So it's not like he wasn't good
at ruling. It just, you know, that one job
more cut out for them, the other he is tough on himself.
He holds himself to a high standard, which is not something
he learned as an adult so much, as something he learned young.
I mean, he probably continued to learn that as an adult, but he
didn't start like, it was something he grew up doing
weird. As a reminder that education
isn't something we only glean from others, our own education,
our own growth. A lot of it comes from with it,
not all of it certainly. And this is part of the nature
versus nurture argument or a subset of that.
The way you nurture yourself and the way you engage with nature
around you And that's a big part of that story.
He did have a huge support system around him for a while
and then it was gone all of a sudden very quickly plus as he
says in the quote that huge support system was geared,
towards educating him as a second son.
He was well supported but it wasn't steering him in the
direction that he ended up. They put him on a different
path, one that he had to switch, even Rob who found himself
thrust into lordship. And then kingship, before
expectations for such, and it's a mall.
She was time to say, the least he was at least Educated to be
the eventual Lord of Winterfell. His education was for a first
born so he was at least more prepared in that sense.
Not to mention, he was educated by our subject today who did
live through similar times with a lot of similarly tragic
outcomes like the loss of their father to a King who wasn't all
there mentally. Right?
Very similar, Ned gets his head. Chopped off by Joffrey Brandon
and Rick Carter killed by Ares. And of course, there were all
out of manipulation by Powers behind the throne in both these
cases As well. But that is our Target today to
look at Ned's life from birth up until a point about the point
where Robert's Rebellion began right up to the point where he
lost his support system brought up the point where he became
Lord of Winterfell. I'd say that's a fair line in
the sand to say. Okay.
Well if he wasn't a man before this, he certainly is now
because he has the responsibilities of an adult,
whether he was fully ready for it or not, but he was about 19
that point. So he wasn't Young by the
standards of his times but still young by a lot of standards and
You know, it's you're never too old or young to lose your entire
family. One thought that I had about the
nature versus nurture thing. I was reminded think it was a
couple weeks ago when we did the highgarden episode.
And it's in fact, I think it's come up a few times, but the
idea that almost all the houses that we have much history on
have, at least one leader in their background, who was insane
or drunk, or the otic or whatever, you know.
So, seems problematic leader in a past except for the Starks, we
don't really have an example of some abusive wild leader in
Stark history. It's complicated trying to
study. Like I don't know, Evolution and
nature versus nurture but this is like a dynamic that
scientists consider. Is it a more were like Society?
Maybe. They're that way because they're
under more pressure right there. They're in a contentious land
where tribes are constantly fighting and so whatever trait
might be in someone that encourages aggression or
violence, Gets encouraged like the people who were like that or
more likely to survive and lead and so then even maybe, when
they finally conquer their enemies, there's that DNA.
That bit of genetic hereditary personality still in that
culture. Now, they have some, they have
to have someone to fight. Yeah, yeah.
Do the flip side of that. Might be true to, if you're in a
culture where you need to be cautious and plan ahead, if you
need to have a conservative mindset like the north might
have. Yeah, people who are that way.
The impulsive Reckless people need.
Elves out of the gene pool, calm for thinking, people become the
leaders and pass those jeans on, and maybe that's why.
In the reach winners, bountifulness they can get away
with screwing things up and it can pass on some veggies cover.
Don't have enough food in the north.
It just won't work. You have to have had this
genetic tendency for calmness and forward-thinking, and that's
why we don't get these bad leaders.
But on some level that to affect.
And, you know, of course, there's always exceptions.
So, you know, however, much you can even measure these genetic
influences, but it is tendency, we've certainly noticed that
seems to be the case with Ned and ours until his father.
And yeah, but maybe not as maybe not Ned's brother, Ned.
Other is maybe a little different.
Yeah that's a something that comes up in this episode and
some of those differences and so yeah, you're right.
They can't afford to have that kind of leadership because they
would, it risks wiping them out entirely because natural
consequences? Yeah, literally in nature.
So he was born in the year to 63 and his dad horse Rickard Stark.
We don't know when he was born, but he probably wasn't old at
this point because all of his children were born within a
pretty quick succession roughly a nine-year period all The four
children. So we could guess that's
unlikely to have been later in life.
For the simple reason that he didn't marry multiple times so
it's not like he didn't have children with his first wife
that would explain that him kids early.
His mother was Liara Stark they were first cousins, we go
through the genealogy, pretty thoroughly in the Royce episode
because they both come from the Royce Stark marriage that came
several Generations back. We know even less about Lee are
then we know about Rick hard. I'm somewhat assume she died.
Well before Hard. Well it's a pretty safe
assumption honestly. Let's let's take a look at some
events that happened around this time to get set the stage for
what Westeros was, like maybe what the vibe was like, things
like that for years prior to his birth was summer haul.
Okay? So rhaegar was born at summer,
all right, during the conflagration.
So that's the death of egg on the 5th.
And Jerry's, the second becomes king and pycelle becomes Grand.
Mesa that same here because of that grand maester died during
summer all now 260 the following year was a warm night, many
kings. And the death of Roberts
grandfather, Lord, Orman by maelys.
The Monstrous. And Robert's father, Stefan
becomes Lord of storms end. And of course, the war of 90
Kings is when a lot of new friendships between various
Lords became setup because they formed friendships on the
battlefield. And on campaign that includes
Lord Rickard having friendships with several of these Southern
Lords, which leads to the relationships that form the
entire backbone of the story, or at least the early backstory in
the story, Robert. Valuing all that the your 261,
the following year is the year of the Rains of Castamere.
The following year 262 is when Jerry second dies only a
three-year Reign. And then Aries becomes the king
and Tywin is named hand almost right away and Brandon Stark and
Robert Baratheon, or both born that same year, this is a pretty
important year. And then the following year,
that is born and Tywin and Joanna are married.
Then the following year Stannis is born.
Two years after that Jaime and Cersei following year, 26, 87 is
probably when Leon it was born. It may have been to 66 and then
benjen. It's less clear, sometime in the
next few years, I leaned closer to the year 271 but not super
important to 67's. When Tywin becomes Lord of
casterly rock to 68, is when Petyr Baelish is born, another
character with a very small role in this episode, so that's
roughly what was going on around.
Then I just want to say how to think of a nice turns before,
but you know, we've posed a lot about like the rise in magic.
And the world and seems to be centered around.
Danny birth in the dragons the red comet coming the others.
Got your what the cause and effect is is unsure.
But a lot of these key players were born in the wake of Summer
haul. Yeah, maybe that was when the
magic was at least beginning to rise or the seeds have been
planted for it. That it's possible because maybe
that's why he thought part of why I thought would work because
of some environmental conditions.
Yeah there's still a lot of an awful lot of mystery.
Maybe it did work, maybe it was. Like blessed.
These births were cursed at first.
Yeah. So though Aires and Tywin later
turned animosity, they were very close and worked.
Well, early on. Let's not forget that and this,
is that era. So, that's important to remember
because casterly, Rock, having a strong relationship with the
throne. It's a big deal to the other
high Lords. It might even be a threat.
Some of the positioning and marriage alliances made in this
era, were response of sorts to these developments and there
were no lack of new friendships. Like we said made during the war
of ninepenny Kings, Tywin and Aries.
Are an example of that although austere and Peter's dad as well,
though, Tywin and areas were actually knew each other before
the war, they may have, he was already a cup Bearer for egg.
Tell you one who's been watching your Crusader Kings dreams?
Knows that hostert Iowans are really close.
Ha, ha ha. That's right.
In my Crusader Kings streams, Tywin and hospira became lovers.
Now Tywin is broken up again, because he was already broken up
about the death of Joanna, would not take a new lover.
But this is, this was this the bet, the real reason why is
because he was, was a cover story for Is bisexual side, but
hostile died. He came over after yet again.
Now, he's taking on a new Young lover going.
Really, your old man? That's coming around.
I think at first, he was like now, but I think I think
eventually he's like, all right, I'm getting lonelier time would
roll in his grave hearing this really, really well.
That's why we were doing it. Yeah, so Tywin already new areas
before, but you can presume. They got little closer as
battlefields. Tend to do that.
Ring and going through danger together, tend to grow closer to
people. You're around Jon Arryn and
Rickard Stark though. It's probably the one that
matters most here though. That's a doll that I want.
Every step is A build-up to the Cornerstone of a relationship.
As far as education. Rick guard need a points out.
Would have been, of course, the leader of the northern forces,
this is one of the few times where the warden the system
comes into play Warden of the north south east west, all that.
The reason so rarely comes into play, is because it's meant for
foreign invasions, which like that's so rare that there are
foreign invasions for Westeros but more than K, many kings was
one such event. So Rickard Stark as we've gone
over another episode, there's no time we ever know of when a
stark, wasn't he Warden of the north.
So it's a pretty safe. Assumption Jon Arryn was
definitely Warden of the East, so they were literally be the
same rank working on the same problem.
Same planning sessions and all that.
And I suppose they got along well because I don't think you
send your son. Just Foster was someone that you
hate. Especially when you have plenty
of other choices, especially when you don't normally send
your son to the south at all. So there's a very strong case to
be made that they not only got along, they got along well,
right? I think that's pretty safe
assumption, the Tully's as well because those were the three
houses that really were the core of this new sort of Proto
Southern conspiracy is what it's called in some circles.
But we don't have to call it that it's just, it doesn't to be
our Boris. Yeah.
Can just be like, they all got along.
Yeah. Mutually beneficial Arrangement
between people who trust each other and had a lot of power,
right? And maybe they were worried
about what other people's power bases were going to do to them.
Yeah. Lots of reasons for them to act.
The way they did in response to what was going on around them in
the realm, neither says, with past Kings, like Aries, the
first and egg on the 5th. Not holding up with these Lords
might have seen is the Crown's end of the feudal.
Bargain Rick are John and the Tully Brothers might have
thought that it was high time. They made sure of that by
forming an alliance and better asserting themselves, asserting
themselves as a group. Rather than individually against
the crown. Obviously, that's a more like a
union. The pilots Union of hi?
Laura, its Terra incognita says stabbed alive.
Yeah, stab start telling me Aaron breath style of it or
bats. That's backwards.
I have, of course. This Alliance means marrying,
his children to Southern houses. That's not a change for the
errands, for the Tully's were the wrapping they were already.
He doing that all the time hearing their children with in
other Southern houses. So that's that mrs.
Ethic new. So, Rick guard is the one that's
having to do something a little different.
So he's the one that has to change something in the north.
This is he's the only one breaking tradition to make this
Alliance work because there's no like, oh, we don't know Ally
with Starks. That's not a thing for the South
who doesn't want the Starks help, you know, they're too
powerful to want them on the other side, right?
But a lot of times they just stay out of things.
So yeah, so this is one of the many things that makes it
different. This is a world.
Ned Stark is To where Southern and Northern politics are an
entirely different game. And it's a not a settled game.
This is a new thing. It's like, well, how is this
going to play out in the long term?
And A Song of Ice and Fire, we're still seeing that long
term. It's only been about 40 years
since that's not long term, in terms of History playing, that's
like two and a half generation that most, right?
Even. Going back to the conquest.
It's especially given that a key Dynamic that existed at that
moment, went away on a hundred years later, the dragons, right?
Don't even decipher, Robert's Rebellion, like things are still
unfolding. That's still relatively small
amount of time in history, you know.
So the idea that this is and positions and attitudes are
still forming and the Seven Kingdoms.
Yeah, that's very true. Good said it would have already
seemed odd, not just in the north but to other houses, when
Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon by Rick card, a bit later, why
do you want like, huh? Well, that's interesting.
Is this dangerous? So this is part of why the
politics was a little more of a bubbling cauldron because there
were some unusual things, having some alliances that, you know,
you look back at World War, one part of the reason it happened
is because entangling alliances people Well, we pledge to help
this country if they got attacked and they got a tax we
gotta fight and that country pledged to attack us if we.
Yeah and then they just all they're honoring their promises
and it makes the war gigantic. And that is pretty much what
happened in Robert's Rebellion to a certain extent.
So Rick are had married. His cousin Ali are like we said,
first cousin, once removed his father had married, a lock, his
grandfather, had married, a black would lie Aras.
Father mother was Aria Flint the point being.
These are all Northern houses - the black wood which is still an
old gods worshipping house. So the culture ER is the same if
I'm only naming the Lord's. Look at these names.
We got Lara Royce whoo-hoo mentioned already.
She's the one that they both descend from.
But after that, we have Miriam manderley, Alice karstark.
Robin R is, will create Stark married, a Nuria Blackwood and
another star. Creakings mother was Julian
Glover. It's grandmother was lice a
lock, Alaric Stark, married a Marmont, even if you expand it
to Sons and Daughters of main branch, it's still almost
exclusively Northern to Northern marriages.
So I list all those not for you. To remember them just to just
Oh, the weight of how unusual. This was this Behavior was
married. Marriage is between north and
south and this is a lot of tradition that's being broken
here. And we're talking thousands of
years of this, even after the conquest, like you say Shawn
didn't become normal, which maybe it would have become
normal. But it took this long, if it did
become normal, it took this long, 250, 26 years for it to
really actually happen. Nina says, yeah and Ricard had
probably had every reason to think that this was necessary,
even though it was such a break from tradition, he was the great
grandson of bear on Stark who was born, probably not too many
decades. After Dagon, Greyjoy was reading
the northern coast when the crown did not help them left
them to their own devices and it didn't go.
Well, it took until the crown did finally intervene for the
problem to stop so that memory of the Crown's failure and
inability to protect it. Constituents, which is a primary
duty of your liege. Lord protect you from Crepes,
you submit to their Authority in exchange for protection.
Well they don't protect you. Then you maybe should you maybe
be looking for a different Arrangement?
Well yeah, maybe and that's part of what's going on here over
those successive Generations is the north was thinking a little
differently about. Well they're reluctant to
protect us because they're busy with their own inner squat,
internet, sign squabbling, which is what it was about bloodraven
is cited as being too worried about bittersteel in the golden
company to come, send help, they don't have dragons.
Yes. I mean yeah, it's just evidence
of the relationships. Breaking down.
The Dynamics are changing. It got kind of like I was saying
earlier that it's not like everything was fully fleshed out
after the targaryens took over. And then aside from how they
might have fleshed out dragons going away.
Changes think Dorn kept becoming part of the, The Fray of things.
That's another variable that was kind of nude.
It's going to naturally add some monkey, wrenches, to Hell.
Things always had been not going to be that way anymore.
Yeah, it's like the door was held closed by a rusty chain.
Shane and it would take very little to kick that down, but it
takes someone actually kicking it down for to happen like,
yeah, some actually does it. It's still that thread is still
held in place. So, Ned continue with that
pattern. Is part of why we go back a
little before, Ned upbringing, or a little forward in his life,
depending on which aspect of this, you're thinking of.
But he continued. With the southern are edges, he
allowed back in here, maybe just like, okay, this is how we do
things now, or maybe, as I said early on, it's because some of
the same things were happening that made those concessions.
Necessary. But he was also raised in the
South, unlike his father, which naturally attuned, him more to
what's going on down there and to Southern Culture is being
less distant from it. It's not as like foreign to him
as it would have been even to his own father.
Yeah. I just thought of another thing,
by the way, for the Kings Road. Sure.
Yeah, to travel back and forth with Windows 7 kingdoms, are
that makes it a lot more difficult to form.
Alliances much less marriages when it's hard to even get there
or know who's are. So that's just another.
Relatively new thing is going to change the Dynamics of the right
because that probably the Kings Road.
Probably wasn't completed northward until about 70.
A see if not a little later. Yeah, it hasn't even been 200
years since that connection has been fully made.
And when you think 200 years it seems like in some ways a long
time. When you compare like, how old
the Starks are? It's like, 10%.
It's not that long really, like busting 10%, but in terms of
like how long a person lives it's long.
But when you think of, in modern times, you know, rulers don't
last that one. But in this world where you have
like, Gene's and inheritance see 200 years, my only be like 6 L 7
might be like, six chance for someone to do something
different, you know. Yeah.
And of course, but overwhelming factor for net and why he gets
so involved which isn't a factor for Rick hard is.
He's Roberts friends. If the Lord of Winterfell has no
friends in the South he can ignore what's going on there.
A lot more easily than when it's his best friend that needs his
help and his his best friend who had formerly been betrothed to
his sister. And at this point when Robert's
Rebellion breaks out the perception with a lot of people
and we don't know what Ned knew at that time.
Regardless of what he thought later, he may have been among
those who bought Sister has been kidnapped at the time later.
I think he figured out that wasn't the case.
But at the time he may have thought it was like, well, my
sister's a hostage, my best friend is his head's been called
for to just like me, of course, I'm in a help, right?
So that's the entangling alliances, not in this case,
it's not entangling alliances, tangling friendship, similar
result, but a little different in terms of how it forms without
a war. We don't know who robbed would
have buried. We don't know who Ned would have
arranged Rob's marriage to maybe another Northern girl.
Maybe that would have just been the way to go.
Just keep return to the old Editions.
But Ned did sign off on Sansa, to Joffrey not, because he
wanted it, but because he was sort of talked into it was sort
of. It was also part of the
presentation, of licenses accusation against the
Lannisters accountable. Now, you really have to accept
the job of handing, you got to find out what how the Lannisters
kill Jon, you know. And he's like, yeah, you're
right. Which means you got to accept
this marriage. Proposal is kind of an awkward
thing to add to his like, well, we got to investigate this
murder. So my daughter's gonna marry,
this guy also. His daughter marrying that guy,
you know, aside from the details of the personalities, they also
didn't know it's not totally crazy.
It's sort of, like, a positive thing.
It's sort of like, an honors. Not some, you know, even if it's
not exactly tradition, it's not like he's breaking tradition to
do some weird crazy things break your tradition to do some
honorable forward moving thing. You know, there's a lot of built
up, trust among the northern Lords and what the Starks do.
I think, I think they understand that they let you if you start
to do something a little unusual, you probably have a
good reason for it. It's not necessarily true with
other leaders because they don't have that great long-term
reputation for Success. So I want to repeat how normal
this all seems the beginning, all these relationships and
these arrangements, and it's like, well, later you realize
this is not normal at all. Yes ago, just marriages.
Of course, Noble houses having marriages.
So it's frame, so normal. Especially with little things
that back it up like brand wanting to be a knight, that's
really unusual. But we don't, of course, it
doesn't seem unusual little kid in a medieval setting wants to
be a knight. That's so normal, right?
It but it's not. Because he's a lawyer, he's a
son of this of the north, right? That's why it's not normal, but
that doesn't click right away and the farther we dig.
And the more we do episodes, like things like this, the
Starker. The difference becomes a.
Hey. And that does like you said, Ned
doesn't do these things to change tradition.
He does them for good reasons, like a huge example.
He built a cept for Catlin in Winterfell, apparently that had
never been done before. What a huge break from
Tradition. Now, if he had been worshipping
upset bed, it would be a problem but he still works.
The park trees. So they're like, yeah, whatever
big deal. You know, that heart, they have
accepted what white Harbor. It's been there forever.
You know, there's stuff is probably few other steps in the
north. It's not it's not offensive just
to have them there, you know? And it's probably how rameshan
dad or other leaders thought about is probably better for the
sake of Peace in the long term to four people become accustomed
to this and we're of it at least it'll eliminate some prejudices
or some conflicts if you'll just get more exposure, it's not like
Ned arranged for Sansa to It's a merry like you know, some
blacksmith's, son, bastard or some skulls Rocky prints or
something. It's the prince of the land.
Like, she's gonna be the queen is not like any even someone who
doesn't like the southerners like, oh well, yeah, but she
gets, but we're having Northern Queen.
Yeah, yeah. That's got everyone's got it.
I was pretty much count like that, you know?
And that was like, yeah, I can't really, I can't really argue
against that. Yeah, damn it.
I want to argue against that but it's special because he knows
his daughter once that to like, he'd understand.
Yeah, that's yeah. It's like In his mind, it's a
win. Win win, win win.
So there probably were some to use the repeat the phrase Tywin
rolling in his grave. There probably were some Lords
of Winterfell and kings of the north who rolled in their graves
when there was a sept built in the north, but times changed and
the current Lords of the north didn't seem to care at least.
There wasn't any any loud complaining that we know of one
of the reasons, it's important to point out that just because
it's a change, there were other opportunities for this.
Yeah, catlins. A rare Southern bride, but rare
not unheard of There have been manderlys and Royce's.
So there's been other Southern Brides that have been the lady
of Winterfell. And they didn't have, I mean,
maybe they got to bring their like, some personal statuette to
worship to, but they didn't have a whole set, right?
So it's pretty big difference. And as early years, let's talk
about that net 263 to 270, that's when he was the ages of 0
to 8. So too young yet for betrothal
Zoar to, otherwise be used for the father's plan, but he was on
that track. Whatever plans his father had at
that point he would have started with a standard education for a
stark. Second Son with maybe a few
tweaks as we'll discuss in his case.
He's only one year younger than his older brother.
The are. So this is a case where he's
probably right there at Brandon doing everything it trained
together. I ride horses together.
Just do all the stuff together because their age is so close.
They're only your part. That's a really good way to
handle things. You manage both boys together,
going to train them separately. Well you do eventually but not
when they're this age. So I think a lot about Rob and
John similar maybe because they're almost the same age as
well with one of them being subordinate to the other in
terms of the pecking order in terms of later inheritance and
things like that. Obviously, that difference is a
bit larger with John because he's viewed as a bastard.
But Still lands him in a similar position where he's clearly
secondary to his brother. I was gonna say, that's another
thing about the dynamic between, I guess, John and Rob or net and
Brandon is it when you're close in age is like that, you're way
more compared to each other. That makes sense.
Robin brand. It's not like if Robin brain go
out in the yard to practice swords that brand feels like,
huh? I should be able to beat him but
he's better. Like of course he's like, you
know, it's not closed. Has no one expects their to be,
but when they are closed, when you're within a year of each
other real competition are there.
Yeah. Yes.
It's like, yeah, you're not as good as your brother, like, you
feel like you could or should be when it's that close.
But if there's a 10-year Gap, Nolan has that expect ation.
So yeah, that maybe makes it tougher, you know, for the
younger brother in that position boys are taught to compete a lot
like that. As part of the upbringing of
culture for Boyd's, quite often, as you like, you encourage that
a lot. So much of this is in the first
chapter brands for chapter. What happens when Rob and John?
Have a little argument about whether the man was Brave or
afraid, where he died well and then they race to the bridge.
That's like competition competition.
Yeah, right. And then, they're like, arguing
over names for the Wolves Lair. Yeah, just all this like, little
little bits of competition and that it strengthens them.
At least, that's the idea that's supposed to prepare them for
like real battles later and to show them who their real friends
are, and they can count on each other, things like that.
There certainly is value to competition.
But you got imagine the effects on net or any second son's.
Psyche in this scenario where like, you know, your brother is
the chosen one. Yeah.
You know what I mean, that you're always going to get
second pick of everything. No matter how good you are, no
matter what even if John could beat net or neck, could be
Brandon in the yard with their fake swords, or whatever it
still, doesn't matter. Just as place, it's like what we
see in house the dragon with Amon, he becomes the best
warrior, he's way better than his brother and everything
doesn't matter. Doesn't matter even when his
brothers like, I don't want it, it's still does, but no he's the
firstborn that's it. The only way you're getting out
of this, is it? Dead or something like that or
and his kids as well as take violence otherwise.
Otherwise succession just ended and anyone out there watching
succession has got to be like drawing parallels to can do
right now. Now, it should be said that.
It's not at all, remotely unusual.
For the first born to die prematurely and the second
Border in here, that was normal. Even for this era, we mentioned
bear on Stark. One of the Lord's who died to
this day. Gun greyjoy's ravings that they
were unable to stop. He was the Second Son of his
father and Brenda and his father was a fifth son who had
inherited Winterfell. So there's plenty of cases where
that and of course, Ned's grandfather, Ed while was not
the first born either. Old man came to Winterfell to
nurse a boy named Brandon probably that's she's not clear
on her memory and Brandon was apparently the older brother
dead while wait. And while that's a name that's
that's that's grandfather. Records father had wild.
Yeah. We that's the only Ed while we
know of. So yeah your he wouldn't have
heard that one elsewhere. If never beat Brandon to
something or buy a big deal for him, like confidence-wise, but
as you said Sean and wouldn't like mean he's gonna now inherit
or something, he would get a congratulations for that and you
feel good about it but yeah. Now George says, Ned was a
better Battle. Commander Brandon was better at
most martial things horse-riding sword fighting but maybe Ned was
a little more cerebral possibly. There's another reason for this
that we'll discuss later, though, but maybe just a general
who's better at math and Logistics and planning things
like that. Nina has a nice catch here
points out, that Aria was better at math than Sansa and Arya
looks more like a northerner. So that might be like a little
you know a little point of Pride or just a little little nod to
taking more after her father then her mother and so we don't
know if cats good at math but Ned may have if Ned was and this
would fit, I was thinking dating Brandon, it might be that Ned
got stuck doing it more often it Brandon got to do the cool fun
stuff, you know, he got to ride the horse and fight with a sword
and it had to take inventory of the sword.
What's up, you know, I kind of have been to a patient for all
that he might just skip the math class.
But Ned, Ned has to find any age.
She can to excel. So he would work on these things
that branded didn't think we're fine.
Like, I bet if they played so I've asked, Ned would have won
that like random probably them with swords 9 times out of 10.
If no more buts. I've asked, Ned had the edge
there, but it's also safe to assume that Brandon was
protective of his younger brother.
This is a Vibe, all the stark seem to have of these multiple
Generations, if not farther back, of course, most noble has
Have that in general of you, protect your family members,
especially the ones who were younger than you not to say.
Maybe Brandon didn't brush his brother around a little bit, he
probably did but I don't know. But I doubt he would tolerate
anyone else doing that is one of those things when he's my
brother. You know, I mean just look at
how he says come out and died or rhaegar later when he's mad
about what happened to Liana or that he was the one to ask a
Shara to dance with Ned. So the protectiveness is there.
The helping out is there so is the shyness and lyanna?
Similarly protected, Helen read right?
Yes they're Actly. So, there's a lot of this like
this is how the Starks are they? Yeah, by pair and Rick card.
Probably whatever. Guesses we make about him later.
It seems safe to assume he carried that tradition on.
It probably, wasn't there, just from him.
It probably had been around a long time pack survives, right?
The, then the lesson Ned gives to Aria about when the Snows
come, you know, the Lone Wolf dies the pack survive.
So yeah, don't encourage Lone Wolf treatment or Lone Wolf
Behavior, amongst Starks, especially, not the ones in
power. Yeah, they don't like bullies
either. They don't seem to like bullying
all the standard things that we see brand doing grant is seven
when the Story begins. So a lot of what we see his
education of at the time, even when it transitions to education
for someone that can't use, their legs is still a lot of the
same stuff and that's really important because Ned was
fostered at age 8. So he's at the age almost Brands
almost at the age where he would have been fostered.
Presumably, although if you look at Ned's kids, They worked
right? Like there was no like Sansa was
still at home, Rob was still at home, so Ned may have had a
different idea of fostering than his forebears because of the
entanglements. Maybe who knows but it's a very
important little tidbits of like, Ned had really held back
on that to this point. Hmm.
Yeah, I wonder about that I hadn't thought of that.
I'm glad you brought that up my mind spinning a little bit on
and I wonder how affected he might have been by Theon coming
to Winterfell of, maybe he He felt more obliged to take care
of this other kid and he's not going to send one of his kids to
be taken care of by someone else when he's already taken.
Maybe that's they just have so many kids and I don't know, I
don't know. I wish I thought about that more
before this moment, I don't know.
I think it's sometimes. It depends on the Lord.
Like some Lords are clearly more aggressive about it than others.
Some of them have more Ambitions.
Like Ned didn't have Ambitions like that, I guess part of it.
But like, look, it's a again, bring a path of the Dragon is an
example. The high Towers had all those
poor children and only one of them got fostered elsewhere
right there. Ron.
So it's not so simple. They have different needs and
opportunities time, guilty. Undertaker says, bran is being
fostered in a way by an ancient tree, Wizard hahaha?
Yeah, that's true. You're right.
Is is fostering ended up, not what anyone may have predicted,
but it's damn. It had nothing to do with that
decision. Yeah, sure.
Yeah. See.
Funny point, but, but still not the direction I wanted to think
about, like, why Ned didn't do it when he gets.
Like, I wonder if he was resentful of it.
If you missed his dad, if it Even if maybe on some level, he
appreciated the friend he made in Robert and appreciated
guidance. You got from from Jon Arryn but
he still might have missed his home and missed his dad.
I missed his family. Yeah, I mean yeah, I would think
so. I miss his brother.
Yeah, mister sister. Yeah.
Like a lot of things I need to point out.
Ned would have also had some gender specific lessons while at
Winterfell to most is his own children.
Do like the Jana would probably have done sewing and dancing and
singing and poetry in the harp Ned would have doing basic arms
training, right? The Same story of stuff.
Brand was allowed to have when the royal family read like ran
trained with tommen, right? Things like that.
When he got to the Erie, it would have been even more a part
of his upbringing, because as you get older, you do more and
more of that as you're more capable, as you have more
stamina as your body. Feels out, things like that.
Etcetera. What about the beginning?
Another thing, let's look at the first chapter and that bran is
seeing an execution and one of the debates right away as
whether he's old enough to see that cat was like I don't know
if he's ready for that and it's like 07 is old enough to see an
execution, you know. So which kind of implies that
Scene 1 by that age or it's typical for a stark to have seen
that by then or roughly by then. So, maybe that's a little
difference between north and south is Ned's catlins coming at
it from, maybe what she experienced in the South.
Maybe she didn't see executions young, but she would heal, but
she was older than Ed Muir. So she would have seen when
edmure went to his first execution.
And it might have been something like age 9 or 10, or maybe even
a little older than that. So for to her the catlins, like,
this is a little young, but Ned is probably reflecting his own
upbringing. When he's like not, this is the
Appropriate age for it. At least where we live.
No, I don't even younger. Rick card.
Would have been like, start him off.
You know, better get used to the sight of blood youngsters, you
know, let's take a monies five or something like that and they
may not have had Liara around advocate for waiting bit, or
maybe she was all for it too. She's like, yep.
Getting started early. I'm a stark.
I would hope that my kid never witnessed a nice thin execution,
like, never in her whole life. That's what it seemed necessary.
Yeah, trying to rush it all, Thinking of Ned's kids as well
in that up again thing of the opening scene, direwolves pets,
like the bed have a dog, right? Did he have a pet, a different
pet? You know, he would be another
thing. He would have to give up when he
moved to the Eyrie, maybe you would take a new pet while he's
there because he's lived there for another eight or nine years.
So that's time to form a bond with an animal again or
multiples. Horse might not quite be the
same thing as a pet but but it fits in a range and he could
have brought a horse with you. A lot of people love their
horses so it could never know. Right.
And likely I love courses, Brandon loves horses, so maybe
Ned was a little different in that regard, but yeah, maybe
that would have reminded him of his family and having a horse
because somebody that's siblings were poorest people.
Speaking of Brandon was eventually faucet with the r is,
well, that's why he's a horse person because there is Wells,
were horse people and he loved to ride.
So he got a lot of experience with that.
So there'd be a year roughly. If we assume the ages are about
the same here. Let's assume Brandon was sent to
the Reds world around age eight. Just like Ned was sent to the
veil around age 80 event. An uninteresting little single
year where Ned would have been missing his brother.
Perhaps but also had that alone time with his father who had
been his father's primary focus for about a year.
That's pretty interesting, right?
And maybe his primary focus of his mother as well if she was
still around. Quick, send it.
What's the ridge? Will schedule?
Hoarded assistant are it's a horse just horses horse.
Had black, I think black on bronze or something like that.
But by the end of that year, Percy sent up to be faster as
well. So that short one year would
have seemed like a long time because he's, you know, it's his
age 7 to 8. When you're young time, the
relativity of time is a different matter than when
you're much older but it's interesting to note, I don't
think it's a failure on Georgia's part.
I mean, he's only got so much room for all this stuff and Ned
is busy constantly with things happening in the moment.
So think back on his upbringing right but net doesn't have many
memories of his father and Of his mother.
This is in part because he was raised away from his family for
most of his formative years in part.
But also, because of what I said about story have made his
without all this extra material. Now, we want to know all that
stuff, but it's there like it's we can read a lot of it between
the lines. So maybe they weren't that close
him in his spot because of this short time together and it's not
like you got to know like a lot of times what would happen is.
You spend this time fostering, then you go back home and you're
back home for the next a 1020 years.
Ears, and your father lives on because brick card wasn't old.
As we said, he died prematurely. So he could have got to know his
father better at things gone differently, but by the time,
his fostering was up, was only a few years before war broke out
in his family with all slain. But it's possible that his
father just wasn't a very warm not maybe his, he was a distant
or cold, man more focused on his ambition maybe even a little
Tywin. Ask not sure.
One of the earliest lines in this series is brand thinking
about how his father's face changed from his father's face
to the Lord of Winterfell. With your heat ceases to kind of
distinct people and later he sees that in Rob where Rob is
put on the face of Rob, the Lord versus Rob his brothers, like,
oh did you see the way? Talk to me, you know, versus
I'll hang you, if you take your troops home, you know, like
totally different demeanors there.
Rob had to learn that from NED. Right, where where is he gonna
learn it from? We don't know when, when Ned's
dad, dad's, mom died. Right, right.
Not at all. So he may have become cold after
her dead again at the timing of when she died and when he went
to be fostered and everything. You could see there might have
been a especially imagine I kept since we don't know the details
like but I can imagine something like arranging.
This is Arrangements. Have already been made for
Brandon to go off. Yeah.
And in the midst of that the mother dies.
And so now record It is losing his wife, and his son at the
same time. And so maybe the alone time, Ned
might have got with his dad, might not have been good time,
but you know, you might have been going through depression or
do shifter seclusion or whatever else.
You know, we totally right. I mean, we don't know when she
died at, we do know that me. She had to have lived, long
enough to Bear Vengeance. So there's definitely several
more years past Ned's birth. So, she couldn't have died like
when he was poor but maybe five or six that's about the the
lower range, but maybe not till he Like 11, something like that.
It's a fairly wide range five or six years.
Anyway, also, Ned has just had such a full traumatic Life.
That, of course, he's not thinking about his childhood as
much. He's also kind of practice did
not thinking about past. Perhaps you could look at it
that way, he doesn't think about a lot of these things because he
doesn't need to and he doesn't want to.
He's a little his mind is a little more discipline perhaps
never mind. George might not have had the
best boy flushed out for him to think about and or might have
been trying to hide certain things from the past.
Last but certainly was trying to hide certain things from the
past to yeah. So when you re I want to repeat
something, I said the beginning, but frame.
It'll definitely when you reread A Song of Ice and Fire next
time, or especially Just A Game of Thrones, when you hear these
lines like Ned, giving that fear speech to Bran or the Wolfpack
speech to Aria, think about how he probably got that speech from
his father and maybe his father from his.
And how long has that been passed down from Stark?
Lord to Stark Lord or start bother to Stark sons and maybe
some daughters mixed in there? People, deaf And daughters mix
in there too, because Ned was talking to Aria with the wolf
pack speech. It's Rick card.
Who uses that term Wolfblood and referring to Brand his temper.
It's actually Ned says it's his father.
He used that term, which kind of implies that record himself.
Wasn't like that, right? Kind of recognizes that trait
that occasionally pops up and starts but not within himself.
I think that's how to read that. You agree, Shawnee thinker.
At least potentially cause you can't be sure.
And maybe we shouldn't yeah, maybe should read the quote to
get the context better but because you can imagine it might
be telling Ed like you know me and your older brother had the
wolf's blood but you don't think you might be saying it like
that, you know, guy. Yeah, that's entirely possible
like you need to recognize this thing.
It may your kids may have it to, you know, some of us have it.
Some of us. Don't your brother.
Has it big time. You know.
He was like yeah I have it but not bad as your brother.
Yeah. I don't.
Oh yeah. I'll come out and died and the
Crown Prince When there's a Mad King on the throne, I mean, ya
know, no one's quite that, that's that's elite-level acting
without thinking. So yeah, I do really like the
theory that maybe Rick guard lost some of his warmth because
because his wife died, so young, which again is part of why we
think maybe he's a little like Tywin, that is what happened
with Tywin. I would had some warmth before
Joanna's death. Maybe it wasn't all that much,
but whatever he had it vanished and there's some evidence that
it was Fairly substantial amount of 14 Joanna's death at least
relatively relatively speaking. Yeah, I mean that is like losing
your spouse. Is sure that can change your
personality entirely for the rest of your life.
That's very believable, regardless of who you were
before. And if you're kind of a cruel
callous person, that could still even that kind of person can be
deeply impacted by that kind of, not level of trauma that level
of loss. But as we said, it's too big of
an assumption to be sure of when there's a life full of
possibilities, but it fits. Well, Does fit well.
All right, I asked for feedback from our Facebook group on
things that are seen. As Coming of Age events things
that we might want to think about in reference to this
episode milestones and a young boy's life that would help us
expand the conversation a bit give Fuller consideration to
what else might have happened or mattered in young Ned's life and
this will help us for future installments on this sub topic.
When we look at other characters, we also get to make
comparisons between real-world versions of this and that which
gives further illumination potentially like his first
dagger is, Sword being given that like 12 own and hold and
swing, rather, than a wooden practice.
That's a pretty probably pretty big milestone for a westerosi
boy, first kiss, first dance, if sexual experience perhaps as
well, but a lot of them maybe wouldn't have that.
So marriage, so it's not necessarily think we can assume
but still that would be irrelevant, potential inclusion.
Also a lot of times, they get married young.
Oh no, I might not be considered a real man until they're
married. Also some point.
Yeah, you're right or something, like, you're not a real man to
you have a child, you know, or kill someone.
Kuo these standards are pretty yeah, pretty high.
Damn. So some of these.
Yeah, so some of these seem really outlandish to our
society, but you can hear hearing them said about Westeros
was like yeah that's sounds about right?
Like you have sand or saying I killed my first man to 12 gets
in like chapter 7. So yeah you have that extent.
Express pretty early in the story first time.
Drinking, beer wine, first time having it and for some having
too much. That's a formative moments
probably John ravenscraft South Rob and Beyond taking bran out
on his new saddle, which bring, you know, mix think of your
first horse ride. The first horseback ride and
maybe certain sub Milestones along side that.
Yeah. First time riding by yourself,
if the first time like jumping something or some racing horse
versus just trotting on it. Yeah, I was gonna say the first
time, you galloping horse, maybe that might be, maybe even
similar to getting a driver's license because it's one thing
to like, have driven a car in the parking lot at seven miles
an hour. This is the break, Pedal.
But it's another thing to, like, get onto the highway.
You know what I means like? So I think, you know, you're
allowed your first time doing that.
Yeah, it's probably a big deal. Yeah, first time in traffic.
Your first time like, yeah, yeah.
Galloping horse is no joke. That's a little different than
just having someone help you up on a saddle and pull the reins
Trot around in a circle but to like, take off for the horse,
printing is scary and dangerous and you've got to have a certain
amount of experience and expertise and bravery or
whatever, you know, I could easily.
That is a standard for quote unquote manhood, you know, I
like that. Yeah, it's a good cop.
They're totally because you had something, you build up, you
slowly. You can't just hit the ground
Galloping. Yeah, exactly.
Megan Edwards, has a really good take on here.
Her post said and this is coming from a mother's perspective.
She says, first time, navigating a tough situation on your own
whenever that tough situation, maybe without help, in other
words, but that's not on your own part that she's keying in on
is really important, it could be handling your beer while riding
a horse. Fast for the first time.
Maybe that's, you know, you're at that point you kind of are on
your own, no one else can manage your fear for you.
They might be able to give you some words of encouragement, but
ultimately that's coming from, within both the fear and your
ability to manage it. First time, reading a book, for
some writing a letter things like that.
Those would maybe be a little more important or momentous in a
sub literate Society, right? But it's still a, pretty, big
deal in a literate Society. Pretend you like read a complete
your own book on your own the first time?
Yeah, that might be a good Milestone, but maybe not a
milestone for becoming a man. I could at least that modern
times, maybe back then, because it might have been more rare and
special just weren't children's books.
Yeah, because you know, I think like a five-year-old kid might
read a book nowadays. There's a caution for young
girls. That's getting a children's
book. No, it's not up to me.
First job is an interesting one to cry to compare, and that one
doesn't really apply to Lourdes High Lords.
But you could, you could make a comparison to like their first
time, being you page or Squire. That's kind of like a job.
Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was
thinking. Is someone at a lower of a lower
class, middle class equipment would be like an apprenticeship
in this setting where you're pretty much 925 incur, some
tedious thing. That's hopefully teaching you a
skill that will have more value later in life.
Like as a blacksmith's Apprentice to bring up one that
we see on page with Gendry. That's a good example.
I suppose, the equivalent it's been said before to a tournament
is sporting events. So your first sporting event.
Yeah, especially participating in one.
That would be more of a milestone than just seeing one
but seeing one is a pretty big deal to like Santa seeing that
tournament for her. She was like, wow, this is she
was so like Like blown away at everything and just thought it
was amazing and wanted to be perfect and that had a big
impact on her. Cause she saw things, she didn't
expect to see was told storage was that they wasn't as pretty
as she thought it would be, there was real blood and people
yelling at each other and it almost got worse and yeah that
changed her view on tournaments Forevers.
That's that was the San Suffocation that's when she
became a real Diane. Yeah.
Tracy M says, in Scotland boys have to strip to the waist and
Pummel each other with eight pound haggis has to become a
man. Wait, is that the plural for
haggis has? It's not haggai or yeah.
What's a haggis? I don't even know what that is.
Haggis is a stuffed. It's like an intestine stuff
like a sausage kind of I think. Okay.
Sort of eight pounds of it. Yeah all boys and Scotland have
to do I still have to do this and Tommy Pappas says the for
His children, his sons he has to right there, they're very young
to him, it will be a milestone when they complete a task meant
to be done with their hands with their feet instead.
And that's when you can really, you can, if you can like turn
the bathtub on and off with your feet steady your hands or I
don't know. You're something more fancy like
Shire. Even yeah.
Doctor I guess I'm not a man but I've never shaved with my feet.
Damn it. I've got one how about the first
time you witnessed the queen having sex with her brother?
Wow, Darkness Dame says have always thought the lack of a
Heart Tree theory was a huge part of wide.
Net allowed except be built for cattle interval.
Good point. Yeah because he he didn't have
his way to worship and less maybe he was elsewhere in the
veil. There may have been times where
he was like at the Royce's place and there would have been a
Three. They're probably, but not at the
area, which is a big deal. Yeah, that's a good call, that's
really good. Yeah, good said during his name
and they also say there was also the guilt over John and Liana
and the lies he was having to tell.
But I think his inability to honor his own religion in here.
He made him consider more than one.
Yeah, he knew what it was like to not be able to worship the
way he wanted and felt had done in turn.
Had that sympathy for Catalan or at least anticipating that
he/she may have. None of you wonder if she asked
for it or was like where will I worship?
He's like the bells went off in his head.
He's like, oh, I'll build you except we can't No, that's
unacceptable and I have a place to worship.
Let me tell ya, hmm, Kirsty, Angel ask what exactly is a
quote Warden of north east south and west for titles that were
created by aegon the Conqueror upon taking the throne.
He wanted to assign responsibility for foreign
invasions to arbitrary distinction of four locations
throughout and it's called Warden because of warden is, you
know, in is a usually someone who is in charge of prison I
don't know why that the term Warden is used here, but I think
word, that Heather's Warden is being someone like protector at
it. One, who's responsible for and
so often, there's a warden of a prison be, could be a warden of
other things, too. And the hospital one, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the end, it probably
was primarily areas of tent was from foreign Invasion but I
think a warden would be responsible for interior stuff
too. Like repairing a bridge or a
squabble between two Lords under them, but you know, especially
making it north, south east west You know, you get the the West
probably trying to defend against freaking iron Islanders
and North is protecting the wall that the south of the time maybe
was protecting against Dorn and it's so I on some level it's
probably just a way to set up sort of a hierarchy.
So the king doesn't have to worry about some squabble with
some lore. Lords or 13 wildlings came
across the wall. The word in North will take care
of that. You know, don't come to me with
that. But also I'm sure it was at
least, partly a political move to make them feel more important
to make them, you know, creates traveling and jockeying for
position. Kind of like we talked about the
high Garden episode. They created all these Noble
orders and tournaments and things that they would want to
beat over rather than competing with them for lordship.
And it makes all that just makes their Authority even stronger.
Yeah, Darkness James, another comment quote, no doubt.
He thinks a bit of beard makes him a man thunk had thought the
same. When he first found some clothes
growing in his upper lip I tried to shave with my dagger and
almost Nick my nose off. That's a good point.
Your first facial hair as a boy is something that a lot of
People take pride in or hope to take pride in, or don't know.
But yeah, that is a, that is kind of a milestone.
That's pretty distinctly. Masculine guilty.
Undertaker also says, among the Zulu, young men were painted,
white and sent away with just a spear and shield.
They came back alive after the paint where off they were now
men. Yeah, just go jump in a river
over. Come back.
Look, you have like 20 minutes, bro.
I know that. That's pretty cool though.
I love hearing these other examples of what it takes to be
a man exertion broad differences amongst culture.
They usually evolved similar things, surviving bravery
showing competence but its competence in the things that
matter to your culture or your tribe, which often are Marshal
in origin or related to things like that like hunting which is
a marshal Pursuit but also one that you need to live at least
some cultures most cultures. Also a comment from catto Vivas
from a couple weeks ago, in reference to share a sea star.
This could have a little bit of relevance to say, Liana and
maybe even Liara Stark. We don't know how she died, but
it's possible means childbed. Now she says, we were wondering,
whether she are his mother could have named her even after apart
from having chosen out of name before pregnancy.
Which is, of course, always a possibility.
But she says as an obstetrician. So we should absolutely
Solutely. Listen, and take this opinion
very strongly. She says, most maternal deaths
in childhood that occur after giving birth, not during the
most common, cause being severe bleeding.
After the expulsion of the placenta is can happen even
hours after the birth of the baby and child bed, fever can
start several days later. Not that always does, but it can
start selling his later. So, yeah, there's a pretty wide
window or dying from childbirth. It doesn't have to happen
immediately ordering. So, absolutely, a name can be
picked out in that window. So, which apparently can be days
long for any of lease could have like the name out, even if it
was only a couple hours, as long as she was conscious Nina points
out, an example from history, that is one relevant to us.
Because we talked about this time period, lot Henry, the 8th,
his wife Jane Seymour, who is his third wife died, 12 days,
after giving birth to Edward postpartum infection and or
pulmonary embolism. Yeah.
All right, let's talk about Ned's time in the veil.
This was more of his ears were in some ways.
More formative, maybe not emotionally.
Maybe those earlier years had more to do with his emotional
upbringing, but in terms of things, he learned how to do and
things that were memorable to him later in life distinctly.
Well of course those are your years or more there's less fog
around your later years because they're less distant.
They're more memorable etcetera. Barbara Dustin says her father
Roderick was R is well. Wanted her to marry either
Brandon her Ned Again, as we said earlier, there may have
been circumstances that that could have happened, but
problem, Lord regard was probably dead set on Southern
marriages. That's why I said this
circumstance would have to be a lot different from not to think
that way I guess. I mean part of the reason to
send that to the South was to prepare him for a southern
marriage and also to in addition to showing up that alliance with
Jon Arryn and the Tully's etcetera lady Dustin claims, it
was Rickards Meister Wally's who suggested both the cat Brandon
and Robert Lana marriages, which is I don't know about that
Barbara's. Got a real prejudice against
maesters and it doesn't Balaji care doesn't really work Ned all
the logistics. Maybe don't really work.
Logic Logistics. Yeah.
Similar he because Ned comes back from the veil carrying that
marriage offer to for Liana or his father to consider Robert
Juliana. It doesn't sound like the idea
came from mr. Wallace.
If Ned comes home with At offer from the veil right?
While hanging out with Robert all the time that sounds like
Mia, maybe they were they sent some birds back and forth and
then they decide to do it formally.
But why would Ned need to bring? I don't understand why they
could just send that message. Yeah, so does it sound like a
Wallace? Nina also says.
Yeah, anything Barbary. Dustin says, should be taken
with a grain of salt. She's got specific Grievances
and she's trying to sell a narrative, but beyond that she
hopes filters back to Roots because she wants, Ian to tell
Ruth, certain things and to roost to believe certain things
and to be sure of certain things about her loyalty.
Yeah, so, yeah. So she's got a lot of reasons to
lie, and she's better. And she's been better for a long
time, which isn't the best thing for managing your biases and
said, kind of centering yourself.
I mean what she says, I could have married, you know, Brandon
or Ned but Catelyn. Got that one too.
She's blaming her for like, that's that, that one's fault.
Phrases like that. Remind us of her extreme bias
here, but she might be, it's possible.
She's right. But how would she have known?
It was mr. Wallace's idea, she was like a
teenager at the time. Like where is her information?
Even coming from on this. Like this is 15 year-old
Barbara. Doesn't have a spy inside
Winterfell. I don't think so.
She made genuine believe it. It might not purely be a bias or
a lie but it still might not be true.
She's so might have been fed false information or you know
concluded it in her mind and Extends to her, especially with
her biases. But yeah, yeah, it's dubious so
dead. Eight years old, even though it
sounds really young. It's fairly normal if you're
going to be fostered. That's very, that's a normal
time for it to start. It's how it's just really
difficult to think about that. It's like, when I was eight, I
got sent away to summer camp which was a huge deal that was
three months. You know, like that's a wild way
from my house for three months. Huge prior thinking back on it.
My mom really needed that break but at the time I had been that
stuff didn't occur to me but this is Totally different
scenario. Like that's the closest I can
get to it and it's not that close.
We're talking 28 years not three months.
I mean this is your entire childhood education basically -
a few years it's also just a little side note.
A lot of times when I was envisioning Brandon and Ned
competing, his brothers, I was imagining it kind of like Rob
and John. I was imagining like teenage
boys but it would have been six or seven.
I guess I suppose it. Ned wasn't just permanently
gone. They probably came back like,
for the summer or something. Well right there.
Probably so each other not till he was 16.
That's what they're says. Like, once he turned 16, he
started to go back and forth which is why also really so he
was just gone the whole time. Maybe an exception or two but it
wasn't. They weren't regular visits back
home apparently, which is a little surprising, but
apparently, that's just how they do it.
Like, you know, Nina gives a couple of similar outstanding
example. She says Harmon, the second
whore, who was fostered with the king of the rock.
That's, you know what? Ironborn fostering with king of
the rock or unusual role in the first?
Aaron who fostered with the king of the riverlands?
Well, less than usual. Still unusual.
Cause he's our separate Kingdom time.
These aren't houses under the Iron Throne that are working
together. These are Separate Realms that
time. He says, in both cases these
fostering specifically encourage the men, fostered to align
themselves politically socially and or culturally with the
places. They were fostered.
Armand by continuing his father's promotion of pro?
Mainland reforms, like Armand was like, the whore family was
more about Mainland domination than about being traditional
iron board member. They're the ones who vote
harrenhal and all that eventually and that they were
different for ironborn. They were more Progressive.
Prime born, you can say And Roland, by taking inspiration
from the grand ancestral, castles cross Westeros, by
taking the seat for the Aaron. So in this case, we're talking
really long ago, this is the same role in people to the area
after looking at highgarden and the fashion Rock and going.
What are we scrubs? Yeah, so Lord Rickard had
arrangements for marriage to riverrun of fostering in the
veil and eventually marriage, the storms in, those were his
three big plays. I maybe he had plans for benjin
to this because benjin eventually joins the Nights
Watch. It doesn't mean that was what
his original plan for him. Was that sounds like something
that developed later because of all the other stuff, the war and
all the deaths. But I would strongly suspect
that Rick Carter would have married benjen to another
southern family. Had things gone differently, and
it's safe to say these Arrangements were not sudden
they were made years in advance for at least a year a year in
advance. The planning may have started
even before that without choosing specific time, People
like, well, we can maybe choose one of these three houses.
One of these four houses similar for Robert resume And we wonder
if they were specifically at like today arrange this
specifically having a stark and Baratheon being fostered at the
veil was that intentional that specific Arrangement or just
kind of worked out that the guy I'm gonna send my kid to the
veil and oh so is Robert are at Robert baratheon's going to
Foster their to? Okay.
Cool. Or did they plan that
specifically like we're going to have these to be at the same
place? The same time.
Consider in setting up this subtopic discussion.
Here that the Reason brand went to Kingsley or was going to go
to King's Landing for his fall was because Ned perceived ill
will between Rob and Joffrey. It was like bran will help
bridge the gap between those two because of his personality.
So yeah, there may have been thinking it kind of like how
families think about arranged marriages, it consider the
personalities of the people they're going to have marriage
sometimes, they don't in cases like this, but sometimes they do
and this may have been one of those time for the lake trying
to place the right boys together that they think would have the
right results. It would be formed friendships
or look out for each other. It's entirely possible.
I wanted a little bit about that to why part of it.
I imagine was it, John Aaron didn't have a son of his own or
any kids, even right? At that point he his brother's
son was his are that point? Yeah, so maybe it's convenient I
guess for him to take on Words, you know.
But yeah. I don't know how much he wanted
that or that was coordinated. It was it Aaron pushing to get
these boys, may have been to be or like, why didn't they say
Listen, Ned to storms in to be fostered with raw or widened
robber. Go all the way to Winterfell.
You know, I guess it isn't Fun. You think social location the
one that kind of yeah, like the better between point but like
the idea that maybe the area is like a little closer to home.
What doesn't matter if you didn't go home for eight years,
anyone like it? I didn't seem to be a factor.
So well now I guess about of terms of the Kingdom's being
next to each other, right? That part perhaps matters in
terms of the future. Yeah their potential and it may
be that Alliance is more important to Foster I suppose in
the areas connected to both of them and there is a history of
yeah not a recent history but there was a long history of the
veil and the north fighting over.
They fought that they worthless War over the sisters not that
they had had any sort of recent flare-up of a story that we know
about but you know, you know don't take chances, you know the
friendship between the veil and the north is a good for
everyone. You know pretty much anything
that we know has happened in the past is less likely to happen in
the future. If we take this action, let's
say reason it didn't happen in the past as part because of
Seems like this. Let's continue to do that.
Yeah, I totally agree except that.
It wasn't done in this way because we don't have a lot of
Northerners, bajoran South. So this was maybe a different
way to do it. Maybe they didn't realize the
potential downsides of it which was these entangling
friendships. Although and I think we think
the friendships kind of worked out because we didn't mean we
didn't want Aires to win. Robert's Rebellion, did we?
I don't know. It's a little tricky when you
really break it down. Like that need a totally agrees
that this was very likely, a range specifically, certain
personalities, put trick, Places, certain members of
certain houses, she says, Jon Arryn had the mature
statesmanship, but no children to use for marital Alliance of
its own ostrich. Ali had to eligible daughters,
but his son was too young yet to educate.
For leadership is Brandon Robert and to a lesser extent, Ned
could be. And while Robert was perfectly
poised for that sort of Education.
His father might have seemed to naturally Pro Targaryen to be
useful. As an immediate Ally consider
that the Brazilians are Targaryen descendants and not
just from the ancient past. Remember, Robert and Stannis and
Renly, descend from rhaella, Targaryen eggs, daughter, first,
sister, rather. So that's not that many
generations backwards to generation three generations
back. So you can see why they'd be
maybe like, well, we want them on our side because we don't
want them the Targaryen side, but you can't just assume that
they will side with the old guard because that's where they
come from. So, you want to move doing a
lock that up. See the, you can see the logic
behind making sure the baratheon's are included, but it
made you don't want to give them the hostages to answer your
earlier. Question, may be in this era,
remember Stefan breath, and went looking for a wife for rhaegar.
He went searching this admin died on the way home.
That was always a little suspicious.
They couldn't find anyone at all, but which might key into
some of them might be part of this whole arraigning and
conspiracy stuff but not part of this episode.
It's still interesting thing about By the way, there were
phrase that Walter wanted some of his children or grandchildren
to be included in this thus fostering of Robert Ned and they
were like, no can't sit with us. You can't sit with us which
further fuels Walters like they're always looking down on,
you know, some of his revenge layer.
One of this is one of his many grievances Annette.
This is pretty interesting, Ned goes from training and growing
up with his brother Brandon, who's bigger, and stronger than
him and only one year older. To Growing Up and trading with
Robert who's also even bigger and bigger stronger and also
exactly one year older. So it's like the same like a
swap in of a foster brother for his real brother who's the same
age and also just like bigger and stronger, even if he was
even, if they were the same age, Robert would be a lot bigger
than dead. Yeah.
And Jon Arryn becomes like a second father to both of them.
This is at this time. They both have their real father
still alive, but Given a few more years, pass 8, I guess both
of their fathers will be dead. Both Rick hard and Stefan will
die. Well prematurely not from
natural causes. And that presumably is
something. They both Bond over during this
point because they would be together when word of that
happened. Well, Robert wouldn't Robert saw
his parents die, so he would come back from storms and and
never agreed with him. But when Ned's parents were
killed or Ned's, father was killed in brother, they got word
of that. Avail.
And yeah that would have been quite a thing will come back to
that in a minute. This is a question we got well.
Setting this episode up wound, that's duties.
Have been in the vale like we know he would have been learning
things. What about like his
responsibilities? This is where are you?
We talked about the difference between a squire, as a title,
and a squire as a set of Duties, because you can be a squire
without having the title of Squire.
Squire can be a verb and also be a title.
So Ned was a squire and the sense that he did the duties of
Squire, but he wasn't a squire in the sense that he was on
track tonight, Hood, he could have been Jorah got knighted, so
it's entirely early possible that they asked him.
Like, do you want to be a knight?
Should we is that how it when you wanted to go and Ned
decline? Because he probably got that
offer? They're probably like, no, Ned.
You're not worthy of being a knight.
Yeah. Right please, of course, he was
worth it. Being a knight.
Isn't that Stark? We're talking about?
Jon Arryn raised him. Of course, he's worthy.
So he probably the offer probably came in probably the
client, or maybe his father was like, nah, but I bet it was his
call. I bet it was his personal
qualities like no, no thanks. I want to be a northern, which
is pretty. So my dad made that personal
call because his dad poo Rudy. He might be like, probably going
to try to make you a knight, don't fall for it, you know.
Yeah. So there's probably some bias,
remember where you came from Saint, you know, like that kind
of topic like yeah, you're going to the South, you're
representing us here. So don't let them change.
You like like good nicer version of bail on feels like all those
Stars got their claws in you and you're no longer a squid, you're
no longer a crack in your some wolf now you didn't.
Did you pay the iron price for that necklace?
You know, things like that. Like oh you come on you're a
night. Huh Ned you know look at you all
fancy Southerner. Yeah I think there is something
to that. Yeah.
But it but again, he would have the same job like saddling
horses, sharpening swords, all that stuff.
It's the same job even if he doesn't become Rands now tonight
but she's a but she's a night. Yeah you know she's what a night
is supposed to be. Net was probably what a night is
supposed to be even if he didn't have the special technical type
and riaan squired for Renly without being his Squire, or a
squire at all. Damon saint squired for Oberyn
before his fight with the mountain.
But Damon's D A Night at that point so you can be a squire
without being a squire like to me and says Tara slenderly and
Giles Grafton were referred to as Robert.
Aaron Squires. Robert is six years old.
Like he doesn't have need for Squires.
Yeah. So it's just yeah it's an
honorific like bars being called the Lord when he's not really
Lord of anything on the small Council.
So it's a similar thing, like the terms are used loosely.
As you alluded to before, John's are at this time, his are in
this era was Albert Aaron. Now this it was word.
It just keeps coming up are yeah, I know Aaron be so he'd
have been likely been around a lot.
Albert would have been, so he would have probably a lot older
than Robert and Ned. They would have known him and
that's like I said, John's nephew Nina's.
Like I don't know how much older I tend to think Albert was, we
have absolutely no sense on Ronald.
Aaron's age relative to John Ronald, being John's younger
brother, who would, who would pass by this time else?
Ronald himself would have been the air before Albert, but we
do. Yeah.
So we have no idea. Like Albert Sage relative to his
own father. Let alone Ronald's age relative
to John Brandon had Elbert as a companion.
So he probably wouldn't have been Brandon's companion if he
had been a lot older and his companions were probably around
his age. That's a good point by Nina.
I was kind of guessing Albert was probably older, but this
argues, from being a little younger and being Brandon's
companion. However, didn't have a happy
ending because as we know, all of Brandon's companions were
executed alongside him. Which frames the later
discussion about Jon arryn's reaction to Robert Ned's, heads
being called for when already one of his his own are, was
already executed, so he could have been older than Brandon
Ned. But probably wasn't really a.
I wasn't a lot older than them because of Brandon's companions.
Yeah, they're like his buddies and this is also the time when
he was John wasn't even married. So probably very lonely
household, as we're thinking about Rick cards household,
becoming lonely, and eventually Ned's.
This would all be something maybe noticed when he was around
him. Notice the John, his own family
part of why they grew. So close was John's, didn't have
his own family to spend some time with that would have, maybe
some of that energy would have been poured elsewhere, but it
was all according to Robert and Ned and maybe a couple others if
they were around some unnamed other maybe Fosters?
They were there but maybe not maybe just those two.
After all, they excluded the phrase.
I've been out of a lot of other candidates to be there.
Now, there have been other nights and people around who
were Bellman, but I'm talking about Foster's to Jon Arryn
specifically. I need a says, basically the
kind of replacing the children who normally would the Aaron
children, who normally would have been there.
He would have had Aaron children.
We do there, we should always be some Aaron children, but there
weren't it's time, Robert, Aaron, of course, came much
later. At some point, Robert would have
started showing the negative qualities.
It me a lot of positive qualities to.
But, at some point this, these the negative qualities that
became big problems, we have started to appear drinking, lots
of chasing women all that stuff. It sounds like Brandon was doing
some of the same. They're not at age nine, when
they left for the veil but still that would have probably been in
the back of nodes head. Seeing how similar his brother
and Robert were in a lot of ways in terms of these qualities.
And maybe that's part of why Ned so disciplined.
And that because he saw, That weakness in his, some of his
Elders of his Elder, brothers and Buster brothers.
And was like, I do not want to be like that.
For whatever reason, he had to be more disciplined, perhaps it
s son, mentality. You know, the, well, this is the
weakness of there's, this is way I can get ahead by being
disciplined and stronger than they are and something like
that. I can't afford for have take
these Liberties because I'm the second son, that's what I meant,
ality a lot of these, put a lot of possibilities, but they all
seem to potentially fit with Nets personality.
Coming back to the idea of tournaments.
Ian nurse wants to know if we think Ned participated in them
at all since it is popular in the veil and he would have been
encouraged to. Now he's not interested in them
later in life. If that doesn't mean, he didn't
give him a try when he was young, someone like Robert would
have been all about it and may have encouraged Ned to do it
with him because they're come on Ned, you're my friend.
Let's douse together things like that.
And Ned were Robert wasn't some great Jaster.
So like Ned might have actually been decently matched against
him. Nina says yeah it's hard to
believe that Ned wasn't at least bare minimum trained to do
tourney stuff. After all Brandon was raised was
good at it because of his upbringing riding horses and
Only an apparently had some skills.
They're also because of her horse riding skill, he would
have participated, not because of blurry or a claim, which is
why he would have avoided it later in life because that's
what have been the only Point as an adult.
But he wanted to like a lot of things he wanted to represent
the North and his house. Well that would be it would be a
point of he's a Stark in the South.
He wants to conduct himself well and not have people laugh at
him. Not have their house be shamed
for any reason and that's not really going to happen by
sitting. Now, you know, if all the boys
are participating in some sort of contest, sort of
Championship, some sort of competition.
He's going to want to compete just because it's expected of
him. And isn't the type of person to
shun? That kind of thing.
If he sees it as a Duty or responsibility, he's unlikely to
pass. He's like, well yeah, I got to
do this. Here's another nature versus
nurture Dynamic here and studies that, you know, like there's
there's all sorts of studies that were done in s and a lot of
more Like, I'm twins who were separated at Birth or families
that have an adopted child, and just comparing how how they
interact. And to give some idea of what,
how much of it is this family environment or social structures
are being raised in versus the genetics that they had, you
know. And one thing they found when
they do these types of studies, is it the nurture side of things
tend to be stronger. In the youth When You're 15 and
you're surrounded by parents and teachers and stuff, you tend to
display more of those influences than when you're 45 and you've
moved away from that and your own ostensibly.
Her inherited genetic personality definers have taken
more control of your life, then all the nurture you were getting
in your youth. So now going from age, 8 to age
16 at the veil with With the nights and Robert and eternities
are way more likely to have been affected by all that and gone
along and done it Flash Forward. 20 years when he's more removed
from that and his more natural personality is dominating more
so than the nurturer of his youth in might completely
disregard tournament page. No way to know if this is
actually the case, but it's adds to my beliefs that heck, yeah,
he was, uh, playing in tournaments.
Yeah. And you're right.
That's a great. That's a great point.
Also, one more thing I'll add to it is say, also, you just
wouldn't understand the consequences of it as well.
So some of the things he doesn't like about it is, it's just a
big way. Of money.
Which as a 12 year old, he may not have thought about that.
It may not have been. Yeah.
I'm like, oh, man. This costs a lot.
We better the better to say this money for winter supplies, like,
when he's in charge of things and thinking on those on that
level, he's like, yeah, we don't wait is a big waste, you know,
never mind injury, you might tear your ACL plan and it's
bring that up at the beginning. By the way, y'all both of my
co-host today. Have injured legs.
We got we got we got uh I sprained my ankle yesterday.
Sean. Yeah.
Wrapped up with icing. My place is at fault, I'm
actually a three wrapping my ankle right.
But yeah, it's not nearly as bad as Sean stumble around tourney
soon rights are on. Yeah, and 10 days are going to
have surgery on his birthday. Everybody wishon happy surgery
birthday. This is kind of a question for
everyone just as soon as we think about, who else was around
the veil. These years for Ned to have been
influenced by or befriended Ned's.
Grandfather's grandfather married.
Laura Royce. As we said, Head back early, in
the episode and his mother descends from a separate Stark
Branch at also come through. Laura Royce hasn't said, so he's
a distant relative to the Royce's on both sides, which
would probably be a point of contact with one of the primary
houses in the vale, the royces and bronze.
Ian Royce is a friend to net later and we're not sure how old
bronzy on Royce is a little bit older, it seems like but maybe
not a lot older and there was someone named Kyle Royce
murdered by Ares, alongside Ned's family.
So this Kyle guy was probably Onda Ned, probably maybe even a
friend. He was in Brandon's retinue Kyle
Roy's, which was why he was killed.
So he was probably around Brandon's age using the same
logic we used for Albert Aaron which might mean he was God
bronze younger brother but either way a royce with some
connection to bronze young because rolls-royce's so
obviously had a reason to be on the side he was on probably
connection. Yeah and it was the right the
rice is did help a right away when the War broke out.
The races were alongside as we assume John and Robert and Ned
when they took all town because the goal Town Rose for the
targaryens and Ian Royce would later be quote close to open
Revolt over lices unwillingness to support the Starks versus
Lannisters beginning of the war of five Kings.
So there's a lot of reasons to look at the disconnection
between Royce and Stark and the think that a lot of it came from
Ned's youth or at least was reinforced old connections, were
reinforced by Ned. Ed's youth.
Might be a better way to put it either way.
Ned's Youth and time in the vale seems to be pretty crucial
Meteorites. Ned remembers, Robert jesting
with Lord Hunter and Jon Arryn right before the moment, rhaegar
presented, the crown of the queen of love and beauty
Liliana. That's of course at the
tournament of harrenhal. While Lord Hunter was
considerably older than Ned or Robert either or both of his two
younger Sons might have been of an age with Robert and Ned to
the hunters. Obviously, that's a veil house.
We see them in amongst those Lords declar inch with
Littlefinger. And if he's the pros and or
against little finger, these four crows.
But also with Littlefinger, The hunters would have been in our
another potential family that would have been around Robert
and Ned and had a solid relations of that era.
And Ned might have even known Harold Harding's parents.
That'd be a funny little twist a little connection that we might
not have seen coming. I did not have that.
Did not occur to me at all. Good.
Catch by Nina with Jon Arryn, as his foster father.
Ned might have been encouraged to see Alice.
Aaron John's sister as something like an ant to him makes sense,
especially since net himself had no answer uncles on his father's
side and only a single ant married to a storm later.
The Aristocrat on his mother's side, so he probably didn't know
her very well at all some, or all of Alex's daughters might
have been of an age with Ned and Robert.
And while the boys might have grown Less close to these girls
as they aged and you know westerosi gender divisions are
what they are. They are paths tend to really to
Verge. They keep the young boys and
young girls away from each other, during the reg,
upbringing years quite often. And so, they might have still
visited, though, despite that they may have visited, these
Foster quote unquote cousins, Harry's father was a knight
sworn to Iron Oaks. So that's another that's another
prominent jailhouse. Yeah, there's a lot of that may
have a little backdoor connection.
Here's a passage that really helps us cast our imagination.
Back to this, this time. This is eddard seven Game of
Thrones. They broke their fast on black
bread and boiled, goose eggs and fish fried up with onion and
bacon at a trestle table by the River's Edge, the Kings
Melancholy, melted away with Morning Mist, and before long,
Robert was eating an orange and waxing fond about a morning at
the Eyrie when they had been boys.
And given John a barrel of oranges.
Remember, only two things have gone rotten so I flung mine
across the table and hit Dax right in the nose.
You remember. Red Fort, Spock faced Squire.
You tell us what back at me and before John could so much as
fart. There were orange is flying
across a high Hall and every direction he laughs uproariously
and even Ned smiled. Remembering this was the boy, he
had grown up with God. This was the Robert Baratheon,
he'd known and loved. Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a good quote. Like that house red for it is
pretty much in between Rune, Stone in the area.
So it's a mix sense that the red ports would be present there,
and we wonder to this brings up. Another question as of may be a
little too big for this episode but gamma Rick Bolton squired
for Lord, Red Fort. So, you see this like Rickard
Stark not the only Northern Lord looking South to make different
Arrangements of maybe that's why the Bolton's did it.
They wanted to just do what Starks of Winterfell we're doing
just play along. Make the same sort of parallel
moves and hey if they're gonna get involved in the South so are
we We're going to reap the same benefits.
They do maybe use this to our advantage.
Somehow. Yeah, you know I read this quote
I'm not sure how to read this quote.
I see a different interpretation of what I had had before.
I felt like it was I've always had felt like it was Ned finally
reflecting on Robert of Youth you know like this nostalgic
thing like oh man. That's the Robert I knew.
But now I think maybe he's seeing the signs.
He's like yeah Roberts always been this jerk.
This is fine. Inconsiderate destructive,
immature etcetera, etcetera. You know, yeah, started a food
fight. I mean, it's pretty.
Yeah, he started a food. Now he's starting food Wars, not
food fights. It's the ideas like kind of
funny started. Fuck.
Can you imagine if a strong teenage boy through an orange
and hit you in the nose? That's not just like light
horseplay. That's stick it seriously.
At least hurt, maybe knife permanently and you have for
people who are railing on each other in the practice.
Sure. That's right.
Not that big of a deal. Yeah.
But still like it's kind of like well I mean Aria through an
orange at Sansa remember and ruined her dress but yeah.
Are you gonna throw like Robert? Yeah like you can't throw she
might not be more accurate but you got you can't load up like
six foot three Robert yeah no problem Sting's like and that
really hurt and again it's like haha that was so fun slaves.
Come clean up our mess done having fun.
Now come on all the people that have no control of their lives.
Clean up the mess. We had.
For fun. Yeah, that's the result of that.
Let's talk about Jon Arryn because he's like the second
Father Figure. He's come up so much, he's
really important. Let's focus on him for at least
a few minutes. Starting with this quote, that
sets up how big a deal. John was tune it.
There is no way to soften the blow so she told him straight,
I'm so sorry. My love Jon Arryn is dead.
His eyes found hers and she could see how hard it took him.
As she had known, it would in his youth.
That had fostered at the Eyrie and the child was lordaeron, had
become a second father to him and his fellow War, Robert
Baratheon. When the Mad King aerys, the
second Targaryen had demanded their heads.
The lord of the Erie had raised his Moon and Falcon banners and
Revolt rather than give up those, he had pledged to protect
far. As you can see here, he live
with Jon Arryn as long. Has he lived in Winterfell?
It's eight years each right? Or close enough.
And as I said, Sean, when you brought it up earlier, then once
you turn 16, he started going back and forth about three years
of going back and forth before Robert's Rebellion.
So we actually have a clearer picture of John's personality of
the records. Not only is John arguably a
bigger influence on Ned but we know more about John so much of
Ned's nobility is honor. His decency seems to come from
John. Maybe it was reinforced by some
of those qualities. Also being president his own
father. So like that would be really
strong influence of both Ricard and John had those qualities,
which is entirely possible. They did given how well, John
and Rickards seemed to hit it off.
Release, agree. On a lot of things at least they
worked together, functionally as allies implies, a level of
trust, which may imply certain common traits among their
personality like it Dad was a real scumbag.
John wouldn't trust him or he was untrustworthy.
I just wouldn't trust untrustworthy person.
I guess right? And later cat points out in her
very first chapter that Ned's Father Figure became a brother
by marriage when they both married Tully sisters.
So it's kind of like he was my second father that he became my
brother-in-law, which is a little weird, but still it
brought them even closer in a sense.
You know, what's also weird that married?
The older two girls with John is never mind.
That's yeah. Political marriages are weird.
Ned says our Nina says rather National Nina Nina says, it's
also worth. During what extra education and
military command. Ned might have gotten by virtue
of being fostered with Jon Arryn versus Rickard Stark.
We don't know exactly how much experience Jon Arryn hadn't War
prior to the word, ninepenny Kings, but given his age, it's
possible that he served in, not just that, but the peak
Uprising, and the fourth, blackfyre Rebellion, which is
not to say Rick card was necessarily bad or uneducated,
but I tend to think Rick art, played it safe in the war.
Because when Rickard Stark was in the war of ninepenny Kings,
we don't know of any other living Stark, nail So it'd be
kind of dangerous for him to sell, put himself in the front
lines, he didn't have a son yet the word.
Many things was into 60 Grand and start was born in 262 and we
don't know of any uncle's are brothers, were whatever either
so we know of. No other shark nails that time.
It was also like on the far end of the continent to, right?
Yes. Bailey's the Monstrous was slain
on the stepstones. So, yeah, the extreme far as
your right? So basically the door between
Doran and esos. Yeah.
Like it, you know, if he hit Just immediately Abandon All
responsibility and taking off as fast as you could with no
support or anything. It started taking a like months
to get there you know. And if you needed to tie some
stuff up and gets, you know, a company together and her
traveling on a road with a bunch of horses and wagons in it.
I'm taking it little year to. Yeah get down there to do
anything. Do you wonder how he handled the
whole? There must be a Stark in
Winterfell you know like what did they do it?
Well maybe I didn't go at all. Maybe he just sends a
subordinate and this but that doesn't make sense because of
the friending people. So he may have gone in a command
role and it's never never got close to fighting directly, but
maybe he took the risk or maybe there was an uncle or cousin or
were not aware of. That was the Stark at Winterfell
during that period, That's entirely possible that there's
an unnamed Stark around wouldn't be a stretch at all.
But this answer is an earlier question we had about why was
maybe Ned a better Battle Commander than Brandon, not just
potentially because of just he's more suited for because Ned
learned from someone who likely had more experience at it.
We also hear later, the Jon Arryn was a mitigating factor
between Ned's ice and Roberts fire when Ned and Robert fight
over the dead Targaryen children in King's Landing.
Right after rhaegar's death and the sack of King's Landing.
Robert says I see no Babes Only Dragon spawn and Ned loses it at
that comment. And the next line is not even
John Aaron have been able to calm that storm.
So for that was an interesting role reversal, that's Robert
being ice and Ned being fire, right?
Actually, that's a good call. Notice that?
That. So, John was the go-between
there, there would somehow like help them mitigate their
differences, which probably come up when they were younger, they
would occasionally Clash over things and John was probably the
one to say. Hey, look, you guys are friends,
remember that? Like, like a father should do?
That's a good fatherly. Thing to help build Bridges
between people when they're having disagreements and make
sure the disagreements don't wreck their relationship for no
good reason. And it's doubtful, they had
bigger fights than that particular.
One, the one over the no Babes Only.
I can smile, I'm not sure they had a reason to have a bigger
argument than that. But still I have a confident
headcanon, the John help them resolve many differences.
Over the years that we have been the biggest one and taught them
lesson. One how to do it on their own,
we wasn't there, which we do see happen, do see, some decent
conflict resolution between them and just thinking about the idea
of, you know, how big that argument was if they had bigger
ones, that that one was I mean there's more at stake with that
one and other arguments that had but I can imagine as teenage
boys, they argued harder over things that were less relevant
yet. Exist out.
Yeah you got that burn yeah you got that like you want to be
when you want to be right? Yeah.
Like stuff that doesn't matter. Quite as much when you're older
it might not have been something right there.
Might not have been something. It was actually as important as
this for John to have to come between them, but I can imagine
John had to do more to come between them than what was
required. Like, even in this is much as
upset as they were, they didn't like it.
Come to blows but I can imagine when you're 15 or even over
girl, they might start wrestling around over the girl, but right
around there. Basically, you know, coming to
it, here's a quote that hearkens to this concept that were
discussing now for a moment. Ned did not follow it, run out
of words and he was filled with a vast sense of helplessness not
for the first time. He wondered what he was doing
here. And why he had come he was no
Jon Arryn to curb the wildness of his King and teach him
wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased
as he always had. And I could say or do will
change that. That's a statement that comes
from long years of experience dealing with this man.
All right, but he has the wisdom that accepted for he would have
argued. Like you said, it's a teenager.
He would have argued. Probably tried to get Robert not
to do things. This is a man who's had that
argument so many times doesn't work so he doesn't even do he's
like yeah not only did Robert not do it before.
Now Roberts King, he's dead like it's even harder.
He's older. He's more set in his ways.
He really. Yeah.
Clearly he might have even in his youth, been able to appeal
to John like John. Roberts trying to do XYZ and,
and sometimes John knows that net is, right?
But still tries to find middle ground or whatever else.
But in this case, there's no more for him to peel through
there were formed from the go to and say, hey, the teams doing
this wrong thing. Put him in.
Check that he's the one that's supposed to put together a check
and you knows, he can't do it. And you can see how Ned's tries
to somehow justify things that happen because of his loyalty to
these people should be loyal to your friends, to a certain
degree. But these are also Kings, and
Birds and their decisions affect a lot more than just their
friendship here. Like, when discussing Finance,
Robert spent all the Crown's money and net is like Shirley,
John wouldn't have allowed that and then he's like, dude, Robert
does what he wants? You just got through thinking
that two chapters ago. Like, oh yeah, good point man.
You know, he's just like he didn't want to believe it.
His default is to express, loyalty to this thought
processes of his friends and people he cares about but when
they were, when they say that, he's like yeah.
Yeah, that checks out you're like yeah Roberts does what he
wants? Yeah.
Okay, I should have known. Hey, you know, but he defaults
to like loyalty which is I think that's an interesting thing.
He was part of his upbringing. He goes back to I was the
younger one so I'm I should be supportive of their decisions as
a default, okay, you argued me into.
Yeah, they made a mistake, but he starts off with loyalty and
being on their side. And maybe even Beyond loyalty.
A lot of people you have the instinct to kind of project what
you would do on other people. Yeah.
Like I want has been all the Crown's money, neither would
Robert, I would have let Robert spent all the crowns and money
neither with John. But you know, when you stop to
think about like, everyone isn't going to do exactly what I would
do and I can't always do exactly what I want to do.
Yeah. And Roberts part of Robert Ned's
resentment towards Robert, is that he did listen like he did
listen to these lessons. He did do what his superiors and
Authority, Yours and father figures told him.
So some of that is like AA Second Son, mentality versus
first son mentality writ large over the course of their
lifetimes here old resentments coming back but also loyalties
you still like despite the stuff he's still it's still his
friend, you know, like that doesn't fall off now, also need
to point out something that kind of segues into another subtopic.
Here is being to trusted like this is a good example.
Ned was little too trusting of his memory of John.
John and Robert to put two and two together and think, of
course, Robert did what he wanted.
That's why they don't have money.
I shouldn't have defaulted to thinking John will keep that
under control, but there's more to it.
Isn't there? Part of the reason, the crowns
and debt is because of baelish's schemes.
And who appointed Baelish Jon Arryn Hoops, a?
So maybe being a little too trusting.
That's where we come in to this, like, he hired this man and saw
good results from what little finger is doing, not realizing
that this was manipulation. Not realizing that this was
Financial scheming and all that. That's probably something he
learned from that maybe being a little too.
Trusting, like net also will be too trusting little finger even
while he doesn't trust him. He's like, well, he was good to
cat. It's that same thing where he
sees loyalty to someone, he loves and that makes him want to
extend that same courtesy to, the person that's doing it.
Even though often those people have ulterior motives especially
because of their people in power.
Of course it's a thing when you're in power, people will say
Sidle up to you for favors because you're powerful and
Littlefinger is a master at that sort of thing, and that's going
through much of a tangent. But it's possible that Robert or
John allow more money to be spent and should have because
Littlefinger made more money than they thought they could
write like it's it's exact if Littlefinger is doing a bunch of
positive things to free up more money than Robert and or John or
less worried about it and like sure go ahead and do that next
tournament. But after the third time of
that, even little things like look I Only do so much, you
know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A little bigger company promoted, he hired him to
promoting him and of course that goes back to the warm ninepenny
Kings because Hofstra tolly befriended little fingers dad
there and Little Finger got his appointment in part because of
Jon Arryn and Hofstra Tully's recommendations, Etc, Force
posture, kicked little finger out which is part of why he got
start working for John Harrington.
A lot of little subplots hear that wind up as well here, it's
why this story. That's why we never run out of
things to talk about. That's an uncomfortable truth.
That Ned Peter actually have been common that Jon Arryn is a
major influence and benefactor it went very different work
directions for that. But with a lot of things in
common like Catelyn and Lysa ye both of them.
Yeah, there's so many memories moments like this and a Game of
Thrones through meds memories. I'm sure I missed some like, I'm
going to do one eye next finish. My full reread of, Just A Game
of Thrones, I'll be like, oh, that would have been a good
thing too. Point to that.
What references Ned's upbringing.
And, and that's why I'm excited to maybe do more of these on
different characters will be able to maybe throw in a few
tidbits and comparisons to things that we may have missed
in the past. You know, there's one quote that
I found by the way. I'll just something we talked
about that. I kind of want to make the point
of this is a tricky thing to research.
It's hard to like, there's not like the first four chapters of
the book, or about Ned's. You know what I mean?
It's battered through all over the place in his heart of you.
Fine. Yeah.
Yeah, you kind of really have to kind of research everything to
pluck out these little bits. And I was attempted to do that
in different areas. I could give at least a lot of
credit for having like a good intuition of perspective of
where to even start with this. But but one cool, I found that I
thought was very interesting but it quite find a way to work it
into the document but now that we're talking about little
finger a little bit. He says, I once told Ned Stark
that when you find yourself naked with an ugly woman, the
only thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it, I don't
know if that's part of Ned's education.
Middle finger there is a lesson. He didn't.
He didn't accept. Like yeah, take that like that.
I didn't listen. He was Robert in that moment
like no, I don't know. Yeah, harkening back.
Yeah, there's just so many memories.
Not only in a Game of Thrones like it's not just limited to
that book where we have Ned memories because they're just
like you pointed this out. When we had our weekly meeting
Sean, take out book one, and there's still hundreds of
mentions of Ned Stark in the rest of the series because his
influence is literally hundreds like 800 or something.
And some of some subset of that is lessons from him to his
various children, povs of which there are many, we could have
the next book. John could think of something
that taught him and would be like, oh, that would be
something that we could, we could have included in this
episode if we would have bought because it's probably something
he learned from his father, or maybe wishes he had learned from
his father. So it's really important for him
to pass it on because he saw how not having that lesson affected
him. So he wants to make sure his
descendant to do have that. That which is a big thing in
parenting, right? People very often do the same
things, their parents did and the some of those same people do
the opposite things, their parents did because they saw the
impact of it and sometimes that pendulum swings too far, but
your parents that were too loose.
So, you're over disciplinarian and then sometimes he's like
your to, they were dude is wearing.
So I'm gonna be to Leah. Sometimes it settles in nicely
in the middle, you know, it's human nature.
It's not tonight and we can pin down Worth noting that sometimes
it's not as simple as too loose or too tight, right?
Sometimes it could be, there's your too loose on, you know,
school work or too tight on, you know, girlfriends.
And you also might treat your son different from your daughter
and oldest and youngest get treated differently.
There's all these variations to how you're affected by the
nurturer of your own upbringing well.
So, it plays out for yourself. Good said, maybe one more time.
I'll say this, we won't be getting more memories from that.
We may get more things. You've said, Said that, I think
we will definitely get, but we won't get any more personal
memories from him. Obviously, he has lots of
memories of what he learned from Jon, but none from his father,
but his pretty interesting but you know, of course, again like
I said, the nature-nurture stuff dad was raised when he was older
in that in the era. When John was the primary
influence, one more piece of evidence for John being the
battlefield. Commander teacher guy that had a
bigger impact. Is there is a memory of one
memory. Annette has of John is when
Robert yells stop this madness in the name of your king to get
Gregor in sand or to stop biting.
Ned has a flashback of John teaching them the importance of
Battlefield voice and he's like whoa Robert really put that on
display there with his roaring booming voice that really worked
but just as all those little moments where he thinks of Jon
Arryn, it's like the two sentences.
Yeah, it's Rich. Y'all very very rich.
And Nina says that may have come from personal Battlefield
experience. Like, John may have had the
yellow really loudly at the pickup rising or fourth Block
Party. May remember like I've been a
little louder. This guy's life may have been
saved and Sky, just practice yelling like that is a skill.
You can get louder by practicing your voice.
Like you can be louder person by practicing and they can.
It's absolutely a skilled is cultivated in the Army to you.
It's a big part of army culture to sing.
Cadence like when you're marching or running to sing.
Songs. And usually there's one person
in command who, like, it's like a call response kind of thing.
And it's part of your responsibility.
Typically, when you get promoted to Sergeant to start running PT,
or March of people around, you have to enunciate yet to
vocalize and not only is it a certain level of like leadership
and confidence but also the actual ability to get your voice
to be loud enough to project for a whole group of people to hear
you even when they're running and breathing in a noises all
around everything else, it is definitely a skill of Soul burn.
Nice. Yeah.
You know I text A sense and it is hard to yell and be loud when
you're running, I mean, you're out of breath.
Like, so no wonder would make you stronger at that and and
people that work on their voice, like your, your muscles, and
your chest developed from that. Like, Robert would have had a
natural boost there because you had a naturally big chest, like
that's a real thing. Got your voice can emanate from
three different main places is how you're taught like, him
singing. If you take the bocal classes or
whatever, it is not to be underestimated as an importance.
So fast forward, all this on. And friendship and second dad
status. Presumably, why Jon Snow is
named John, right? And of course he named his own
firstborn Rob. Was to bees for Rob Baratheon,
right? Robbie no child named Rick card.
I can't help but notice there's a trick on which is closed, but
it was his third son, after John to.
So you'd already gone there's already a Brandon and a John and
And a Rob. But no regard until Rickman.
Yeah, so it's kind of kind of interesting.
Maybe that's the order. He he ranks them that does.
I wonder why he didn't name either his daughters Liana when
it was just too painful Aria is was his mother's name or his
grandmother's names? That's a little more kind of
easier to figure there but and Santa it wasn't the first Stark
named Santa either. So that's a pretty important
thing. So, while net is super loyal to
Robert, I wouldn't say Robert rubbed off of him and on him in
terms of dead growing up to be like him.
All right? Really has that tray to by the
way, Aria is the one that she can be around influential
people, but it doesn't really change how she believes like her
core values. Don't really change.
She's very set in her ways and it's hard to move her off of
that. And I think that is kind of
similar. Maybe some of the other starch
are quite as rooted that way, I think.
Ari is probably the most stubborn like that, like, Aria
when she was To be learned taught.
She picks things up quickly like look how fast she picked up.
Everything Serio said, like she was all about that, but
something more Dane had to tell her things.
Three, four, five times before words and can cause she's like,
I don't care about this stuff. I'm not investing.
You're going to make me do it but even making me do, it isn't
going to get my me like truly focused and interested.
Ned seems to have picked up Jon arryn's lessons the way.
Are you picks up cereals? Like that kind of thing, like he
just was like, this guy is I'm listening, like he's He is my
father figure and I am bought in the year. 278 dad would have
been 15 Robert and Brandon both turns 16 Robert starts to go
back and forth between the Erie and storms end.
Like Ned will start to do the next year and sadly in one of
those first visits back home. Maybe the first one we're not
sure that's when Robert and Stannis see their parents ship
break up in shipbreaker Bay on their way back from trying to
find A bride for rhaegar. And this is, of course, when
patch face was quote-unquote, born born again in the sea and
he lives in the ironborn manner shall we say?
But he would have returned to the area.
Some point, as I said earlier in the episode, this is when they
would have grieved together and had all that.
And at some point Ned's mother would have died probably before
this. And that would have been if he
was in the veil. That would have been another
time where they have grieved together.
So, the following years when Ned would be considered a man grown
by West, Rossi standards, and he would have gone back and forth
and this is when Maya Stone was born me, a stone was born.
So, obviously, this is why I said at some point, Robert
started to have the qualities that we identify with him the
negative qualities Ned's kind of hushed about this.
He doesn't. He's like, yeah, I knew who that
girl was but somehow word of Roberts proclivity.
The gets back to Liana because when Ned Ed comes back with that
offer, from whoever, whatever the origin of the offer was,
which we discussed earlier lady, Dustin blames it on maze for
Wally's but that's probably not the case, whatever the origin of
the Aurora offer was it was the honor to Robert Ned delivers the
document or the letter to Ricard.
Ricard may have already known it was coming but either way be
honest like I don't want to marry me.
She's heard about she's hurt her.
His personality, she's heard about Maya Stone, she knows of
this. Bastard child already.
How Ned didn't tell her as far as we know because it sounds
like he was like, a where he says he was aware of this girl,
but there's no indication that he's the reason that Liana knows
about. I wondered about this to and
Nina's suspicion is I wonder if Liana tried to intervene,
interviewer, investigate servants, who came with Ned.
Some people that were there like Squires and other serving me
like, Ned wouldn't talk about it, but there would be people
who know that she could get the information out of being a Lords
daughter. They I wouldn't be able to say
no to her as easily liana's kind of sounds like she's a pretty
dominant personality so she could get the truth.
If she asks in the people you can sometimes you can learn as
much by what people don't tell you is what they do is their
reaction. I like the fact that she's
trying to ask Ned and he doesn't want to talk about it.
That tells her something, right? You're right.
The variable is like, just like when Elena and Marjorie are
questioning sounds about Joffrey.
I just Chancellor when I say it up front but that they know what
that means. Yeah.
Like oh you're yeah. Okay, you answered our question.
Thank you. Without ya.
Yeah, you're totally right. Maya, Stone, Nia's, Tina rights.
Also represents a key distinction between Ed and John
are in the approach. The Highborn bastards for Jon
Arryn presented with the bastard fathered by his father's his
foster son, the answer was to install and raise my as a
servant at the gates, the moon, he gave her a job.
If Maya's Highborn lineage was not exactly a well-kept secret.
Well, her fate was still to be raised not as true.
Born daughter of her lordly and future, Royal father in his own
home. But as a lowborn servant far
from storms entered by the court by contrast.
Net only brought John and his own home, but he raised John as
a stark and all but name. So, yeah, that is a little bit
of a difference. So, that's a good example of
John said, not just doing things the way John would because he
was loyal to him, or because he's upbringing was the way it
was that learned a lot from John, but net is still his own
person that made his own decisions and had his own value.
Some of which may be came from I'm from his father even though
he wasn't around his father as much as he was around John, so
that's important. So checking that distinction
fast for another couple of years.
Here to year, two more years to the tourney at harrenhal.
Be, of course, the event, as we often say, whenever we refer to
the tourney at harrenhal, it's one day an episode of its own
but it was one of if not the last major event before the war.
So it always comes up, it's super important, he was 18, we
know he came from the area to the tournament harrenhal not
from Winterfell, that's important.
So he would have come with people.
Where he hadn't seen Liana and benjin and at least a month,
probably several months, but they were there and so is
Brandon and Robert. It's not clear.
Whether Robert also traveled from the area at the time.
He may have come from storms end since he was going back and
forth. Well but I imagine dead and
Robert coordinated. Their time at storms ends are at
the veil somewhat. So they were they would back and
forth to Winterfell and storms in respectively they were at
least overlapping someone so they could see each other.
This was also the first time that ever met Howland Reed, her
And harrenhal that's pretty important.
So that's more of an adult education thing.
But pretty relevant here that it happened which of course because
it's also the first time Liana meet Alan Rita.
That also comes up very big given what Liana does for him
Ned personally recalls seeing rhaegar give the crown to Liana
as we alluded to earlier. Robert was jesting with Lord
Hunter and Jon Arryn. When this moment occurred he
says all the smiles died but doesn't actually refer to his
Reaction at the time though. Yandell says Ned was calmer but
no more pleased than Brandon. So it's interesting that we get
to take on Ned from the world of Ice and Fire.
The world of Ice and Fire is going to have much to say about
Ned because he's a second son and well it does but only in
terms of the war as a battle commander doesn't have much to
say about his early life because well, it's not as historically
relevant. Also, the first time meeting a
Shara deign to presumably big moment for Ned.
Maybe his first dance with the girl, as we said before that.
To be a milestone moment. He may have danced with someone
before and he may have even made him nervous, but I doubt it was
like this. At all someone that he actually
liked that, he was into that. He had a crush on, if not
something, if not a stronger term her teenage falling in
love. He may have faced his first
battle more bravely, then he faced the shirt and you know
some people are like that some people do me like that.
I wonder about that like his stammering and stuttering, use
your Battlefield voice Ned. I want to dance with you.
Maybe not that metal Fieldy of a voice said somewhere in between
somewhere between stuttering, looking at your feet and yelling
like Robert. The Mad King enters The Fray
here, not only being at the tournament of harrenhal, which
maybe that was Ned's, first experience seeing Aries, which
would be like, a lot of people be like, dikes.
That dude with his three foot long.
Fingernails and is crazy tangled hair and is like a shrunken face
and because he doesn't eat very much and like, thanks, that's
the king. Yeah, setting up even more.
It was pretty easy for dead to take sides in this war given,
but that would help. And even more.
So Liana vanishes with rhaegar around like two of the two weeks
after the tournament of harrenhal basically, and or
something like that, and Aries roast trick art and strangled
print, you guys know that part. But as we mentioned earlier, he
kills Albert. Aaron Kyle, Royce, several
others as well, including some noisy burn them all.
So no just regular have a regular execution.
As far as we know this chop their heads off beheading.
Yeah. I think so.
Maybe they were hanged but I think it was just bad.
Its yeah. And Ned likely heard they were
going. It was like he probably got a
letter like Hey we're heading to the King's Landing business
settle this Rickard. Probably did Brandon rushed off
but and got caught but record after he was summoned, probably
the realm knew about this wasn't like I'm gonna sneak out in the
night head down to King's Landing and settle this know, I
was widely known, most likely and as I alluded to like more
than an hour ago, what monster of a reaction, it would have
been at the veil and they got the letter.
But if it happens that Ned's father was killed Ned's, brother
was killed. Jon arryn's are was killed.
All these other people were killed and now he's demanding
more heads. He's like in, send me Robert and
Ned as well. Plus some other people,
apparently, they weren't the only to being named.
What did they say? Ned's the quiet Wing.
So it's Robert and it would have been surreal.
It would have been literally hard for them to believe it was
even true. First, you know, I bet there
would have been some amount of attacking the messenger, you
know? Good point.
Yeah, how we need to verify? This is true.
We need to like, yeah, which is exactly.
What Ned said to Catlett about license message.
Like I said, she's crazy. Like we can't believe this week.
No, this is the way she sent the message.
It's very cunning and very subtle.
She wouldn't do this if he wasn't.
Sure. Yeah, well, okay, they forgot
about the, oh, maybe she's lying part, but I forgive cat for not
BEC, suspecting her sister of lying, but and that's irrelevant
to this point anyway. So yeah, like, it, you're right,
I think you're right, it would been surreal.
There would have been maybe people questioning the veracity
of it, once they got over the hump of believing.
Though the deaths of so many important people and the what
are we going to do? We can't just bend to this.
We can't just hand them off for execution.
Yeah. We raise the banners, you know,
you say. All right, we got it.
We got to do for Robert, probably as loud as he was.
He imagined, he was as loud as anyone, if not the loudest.
And I imagine John as mitigating a voice as he was probably would
have been with Robert or lead. It like Robert wouldn't have
been following his lead even because his own are was just
killed. Robert was a lit.
Had a little less personal personal stake in.
It was a Baratheon, wasn't murdered and that moment to
Starks and an errand were and some others, right?
So yeah, they said no, no dead kids for you are he's there
inside been staunch for the targaryens for many generations
recall all the Targaryen Aaron marriages.
We've seen lots of been over that plenty of times but this
was far too personal for that old loyalty to matter and Aries
was clearly in the wrong you've been Even from a king, this is a
No-No. And of course this may have had
a huge impact on net other besides saving his life.
Obviously, John also. So John refusing to give up
children to the targaryens Ned. This is one of the things he's
most staunch on later this principle of well.
Here's the quote, Robert I ask you what do we Rise Against
aerys? Targaryen for, if not to put an
end to the murder of children, this is the reversal of Ice and
Fire again. Roberts answer is to put an end
to targaryens, you know, it's like but but why, right?
That's, it's not just because it's not just because, you know,
you have you put, you put an end to targaryens because this one
was killing children and adults. But but especially to the
children is when there was had gone too far.
However much Robert even recognizes about himself.
He has a new motivation now which is to maintain his
authority is King, right? There's just this other claim to
the throne. It's out there and however much
he realizes or cares. Not that there's plenty of
people whispering in his ear. Yeah.
But but to Ned that's not a factor.
You don't kill the kids. That's not a reason, you know.
Oh yeah, he's like that, you can't.
Yeah, we killed. He says that earliest.
We kill children, we call adults for the wrongs.
They do not children for the wrong thing, they do later
because this is all wrapped up in that argument about Dan
sending murderer, sending us, a seems to get Danny and he says
it would be vile unspeakable. Ned does and and Robert Roars at
him like what rhaegar did to your sister was violent
unspeakable. Oh, and you kind of Wonder are
they replaying the same sort of things that were yelled when
they got that news about are? He's killing Brandon and like?
No, that's bile, that's unspeakable like that.
This is the same roaring they did then except they were on the
same team. Then they were roaring about,
they were both agreeing on what needed to be done about this
Injustice. But here they're split and Ned's
the one holding those old values where Robert has changed.
And that's why I know that's something thoughts about this.
Man, I used to love not this guy, even though they might have
agreed back then about what needed to be done.
That the thing they would have been are agreeing on was choking
Aires. Yes, they stated dead.
At least did not want to kill those kids.
I don't know if Robert would have or not, he but thankfully,
you got guests. I don't think sleeve from with
some perspective about time, we took care of it or Gregor took
care of it or whatever. But I don't know, I don't know
if Robert would have done it. Like, if Tywin and or Gregor
hadn't done, it would have been Murdered those kids.
And if you did, wouldn't it have been admitted for given that
that's a tough one. You're right.
I mean they do have. Net does have that thought it
was like yeah I mean that kind of or I don't actually I maybe
wasn't Ned the Gaze at stars like yeah.
Robert wanted to be the hero and you can't murder children and
still be a hero. It's like it's a tightrope walk
there. So yeah, I was kind of Tywin,
sort of did, sort of handle that for him in a way that resolved
him. What would have been an
extremely difficult decision, like fostering them or just
remove. Them from making them join the
silent sister. Not sound sisters but the wall
or something like that. And just adding two how crappy.
Robert is, why I like Robert so little is because now that he
has the power, like all right, whatever.
Let's just do it. You know, he's just totally
become corrupt and abandon his morality and everything.
Yeah, what? All right?
So, since Dad left, such a strong impact on his children,
along with cat, of course, who also left a strong impact on
their, their Mutual children and by understanding him and his own
in bringing week, Understand some of the ways in which he
treats his own children and abused children as a whole, and
a lot of the ways, he behaves as a person come back to this
upbringing, like, which is true for every human, it makes this
discussion. I think maybe a little more
weighty than a lot of our episodes because it's so
relatable in a lot of ways to real life.
Even we don't have the same struggles as Ned.
Oral most people in Westeros, but we do have family members.
We care about and we have family drama.
We have things that split us apart.
We grow older and change. And we look back on our
childhood and learn how it's impacted us.
Long after the fact, and yeah, we passed that down onto people
who are under our Authority. Whether we're parents of them or
just people that are looked up to by younger, folks in some
manner, or another like all humans Ned's up.
In heavily depends. And so it's how he acts his
distaste of Tywin is Again The Stance against the death of
children. His desire to avoid Southern
Politics. As we've said, countless times
digging into deep into A Song of Ice and Fire is rewarding all
these things continue to make sense.
If not more sense because you could see the connective tissue,
holding all this stuff together and supporting it, setting it
up. In a way, that feels very human.
George puts the story first, but he doesn't sacrifice these
elements to make things fit. Not only does this further
cement our notion that these books are extremely
well-crafted, but it paves the way for further episodes of this
nature, featuring different characters.
Now, we've seen this works really well.
You do it with other characters ran.
We've been would be a good Next Step because he's the one, the
most, we see it firsthand with more, but Catlin fee on would be
a really interesting one because he's Devitt divided into world
as one of the ones I threw out. Are some of the houses Dragon
characters. We see their upbringing you know
both on show and book and different ways has a lot of
those a meaty subject. So I will come back to it at
some point but we've got lots of other topics in the queue as
well. It's a rich vein of material
that we always mine here. The mine of topics is a big vast
endless mine. Next week is Baylor breaks beer.
For example as I said, don't forget it won't be live stream.
It will be released as a premier so you can still hang out during
the Live premiere of it or just catch it later on podcast
version or on YouTube side. A trivia question.
Let's have our answer shall we? The question was, who's the
first person to take a drink of anything alcoholic or not?
Jon Snow. His first chapter is at the
banquet, the welcoming banquet of her Robert and Cersei in the
family when they arrived. And he's just sitting back
having a sip of wine as this like two or three paragraphs and
do his newest chapter. And prior to that, I didn't see
anyone else taking a drink. So it's possible, I missed
something but I don't think so. It's like the fifth chapter
Catelyn, doesn't take a drink. Ned, doesn't take a drink
random. Take a drink.
And no one in the prologue does. Yeah, I was wondering if it was
someone in the prologue. That was my my instinct to
guess, but I die. Couldn't specifically
remembered. Oh, yeah, like I said, it's
possible. I missed a one-liner where they
paused for a sip but I didn't I just didn't see that.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I next you guys might have been
Tyrion or Robert because they're they're, you know, seem to be
the heaviest Drinker. Yeah.
But because John who doesn't have to be their job, you could
have seen. Yeah, Robert was away.
I thought people would guess because you also see him pretty
early on its first chapter and yeah.
Yeah. Anyway, thanks y'all for coming.
If you want to stay immersed and listen to more episodes that
relate to this one house, Royce episode touches on some of the
star connections. A lot of other things, The Rains
of Castamere episode was mentioned.
As we mentioned, The Rains of Castamere early on.
In the war of the ninepenny Kings, comes up a lot, the life
of Joanna Lannister would be interesting because it touches
on a lot of the same things Tywin was doing and it covers
some of the same era to 60s and to 70s and little before, as
well as Valerie does Net chapters.
Of course, that's a rich vein of material on Ned as well.
So check that out. If you haven't already or maybe
it's time for a real. Listen, one other thing that we
we mentioned, but we should, is it your kitchen at nuggets
during the finals? Yes.
Because we always factor to talk about basketball mr.
Grant exciting here in Denver, I'm telling you thinking of
mining nuggets. Yeah, there you go, Rich vein.
If you are a supporter of our show on patreon or Spotify or
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So Last two months of that, you're winding it down.
Thanks as well to Nina for her great notes.
Lot of great takes about a good Insight, some of it.
Not only are her takes great but they lead me to takes the
better. My own that I take credit for
but are partly influenced by her so it's a two-way street when
you have moments like that. Joey Jesse and bran I thank you
for the help with our intro music video.
Video intro as well, Michael Clarke belt that as well plus
the maps behind us and our Benja near.
Who does great work with our audio quality and has a fun
nickname like to shout out. It's just so cool the engineer.
Yeah, Pat myself on the back for that one.
And I will see you all alongside Sean in the shade ya, next time,
you know what to do before then valeriy Rita's.