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George R Martin is a writer of 
both fantasy and sci-fi, and he 

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has a similar approach in both 
genres in terms of how they're 

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presented. 
He's excellent at keeping both 

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the mystery and the explanation 
to said mysteries tantalizingly 

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just out of reach. 
Whether it's a scientific 

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explanation, A fantastical 
explanation, maybe somewhere in 

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between, we can't always be 
sure, and it allows us to 

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imagine both or either together 
or separately. 

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And it's because it's not so far
into the zone of mystery that we

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can't narrow it down or have 
theories with a solid 

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foundation. 
I mean, without enough 

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information, the guesswork just 
gets too wild, too varied. 

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A lot of times we're talking to 
each other and this, your theory

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and my theory, they just aren't 
that close. 

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They just based on different 
things. 

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That's not as fun. 
It's not not fun. 

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But I think it's more fun when 
we reach similar conclusions 

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based on similar information. 
You know, if, if the information

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takes us different places, then 
so be it. 

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But if we independently come up 
with similar theories, well, I 

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think that says something, 
doesn't it? 

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And this is the kind of skill 
that a good author has, being 

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able to narrow it down enough so
that we have that appropriate 

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space for theorizing and 
imagining without it being too 

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explained. 
Because if it's too explained, 

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then it's not exactly a mystery,
is it? 

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So it's very hard to quantify 
this skill, but it's definitely 

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a skill that authors need. 
From where we're sitting, it 

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sure does seem like George is 
excellent at achieving and 

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maintaining that balance of 
keeping the mystery within his 

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world building and in the 
storytelling of balancing the 

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magical and the mundane. 
Mysteries don't always require 

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magic, but they can be enhanced 
by such, and in this world we 

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have to always consider whether 
magic is involved, sometimes 

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more than others. 
George does this by giving us 

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just enough, but not too much, 
while leaving us room to fill in

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the gaps and encouraging us to 
do so. 

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He likes when we theorize. 
He doesn't always love 

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responding to random theories, 
but the fact that we're taking 

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time to think about it, engage 
with his work, of course, and 

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the author's going to be pleased
with that. 

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So topics that are under the the
umbrella of supernatural very 

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clearly fit under this because 
they can never be fully 

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understood. 
Same goes for ancient history, 

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right? 
For different reasons. 

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It can't be fully understood 
because we don't have witnesses 

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or evidence or records or what 
have you. 

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So it's it's opaque or somewhat 
opaque for that reason. 

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Yet because of the supernatural,
we have a grand mixture of all 

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of the above, supernatural and 
ancient, yet we still have 

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enough to work with and think 
about, which is what touches on 

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what I was saying about George 
giving us just the right amount 

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of detail, insight, knowledge, 
etcetera. 

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It's a fun sandbox, extremely 
fun sandbox. 

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That sandbox has endless 
mystery, but it does have 

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tangible elements. 
Without it, it would be so much 

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less compelling. 
MO Kalin's our subject today. 

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It's a place of high magic, 
according to the legends anyway.

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The Children of the Force, 
perhaps working with the First 

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Man, at times working against 
them, but in this case maybe 

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with them they may have tried to
change the very landscape of 

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Westeros in an attempt to 
preserve their way of life and 

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their lives. 
Is the Hammer of the Waters 

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magic, nature, or both? 
If it's truly magic, what does 

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it imply about the powers of the
Children and the Old Gods? 

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It's maybe a bit more than we 
thought. 

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What other events could we 
potentially ascribe to the 

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supernatural then? 
If we're thinking along those 

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lines? 
For example, giant earthquakes 

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and floods sound suspiciously 
like the sort of magic that 

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could throw off the seasons. 
The magic of nature, when the 

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natural goes supernatural. 
But it could just be natural 

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without any of the Super. 
We will examine the high magic 

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and its implications. 
For then and now, we're mostly 

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interested in the magic than the
mundane. 

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The mundane is there. 
It's sitting there pointing at 

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us going, hey, you guys might be
wrong, but that's not as fun, is

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it? 
So we're going to delve into the

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supernatural big time. 
Today. 

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We'll imagine what the neck was 
like before it was flooded. 

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We'll consider why, when, how, 
and of course, who, because 

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there's some uncertainty about 
the children, as I said, and 

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their relationship with the 
First Men, those First Men who 

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adopted the Old Gods. 
That is, it's a little easier to

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understand how it went when it 
was First Men versus children, 

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right? 
Even that, there's still 

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obviously a lot of questions 
there, but there's bigger 

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questions as to how they work 
together. 

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To me, that's more compelling. 
What do they do to make to work 

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against the end dolls for 
example, or the First men that 

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didn't adopt the Old Gods? 
Like how did that work? 

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Did they team up against that? 
If they did, this is one of the 

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best examples we might have for 
that Moat Kalin. 

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So let's delve deep into the 
lore. 

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As deep as the caverns of the 
Children who sing the songs of 

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Earth and have been doing so 
since time's undreamed of. 

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Though maybe, just maybe Bran as
well will dream of such. 

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All that and more on this 
episode of History of Westeros 

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Podcast. 
Hello and welcome everybody. 

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It's another Sunday. 
We're here with another live 

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stream. 
This topic was voted on by our 

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patrons in Mini Moot 2025. 
Just a quick note, Topics Moot 

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2026 is available to anyone who 
is a patron and we will be doing

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that. 
I believe it starts the 

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beginning of March. 
Well, right after Night of the 

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Seven Kingdoms Season 1 is 
complete. 

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We'll delve into topics, mute 
2026, pick topics for the 

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following year through voting. 
It's a lot of fun. 

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Every episode we record goes up 
on Spotify and every podcast 

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platform after. 
It's here live on YouTube. 

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You can also catch it ad free if
you listen on Patreon. 

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Thanks to our good friend Nina 
Krusling. 

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Her blog is at good 
queenalley.tumblr.com and her 

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latest blog post is about Aegon 
the 4th and the Brackens and the

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Blackwoods and a lot of that 
business. 

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It's pretty cool. 
It's an interesting question 

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about why Aegon behaved the way 
he did and why the Brackens did 

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and a lot of side questions as 
well. 

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It's a multi purpose question 
and Nina's answer is very good. 

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If you have questions for us, 
well, hit us up at 

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westeroshistory@gmail.com. 
If you're catching this later, 

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If you're catching it live, well
drop your question right in the 

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comments box. 
At the end of this episode. 

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I'll mention some more episodes 
that have overlap topics and 

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we'll start with the trivia 
question. 

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This one is not in a Song of Ice
and Fire topic question is a 

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regular Earth question, though 
it certainly relates, as you'll 

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see, what is the most common of 
volcanic rock on Earth. 

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So probably the most common 
volcanic rock on planet toast 

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too. 
Of course we call it Planet 

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toast because we don't know what
else to call it. 

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If I'm calling our planet Earth,
I can't call it Earth as well, 

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even though they do call it the 
Earth in world anyway. 

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Answer at the end, but also 
answered during the episode if 

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you're paying close attention. 
Or maybe you already know. 

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For those of you watching live 
and for those of you who catch 

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the episode on Spotify, you've 
got a poll you can respond to. 

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The poll on Spotify will run for
like more than a year. 

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The poll on YouTube will one for
the length of this episode and 

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will tell you how the voting 
went at the end. 

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It's the two chances to vote. 
The the poll is, did the 

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children of the forest and the 
first men work together to flood

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the neck? 
Yeah. 

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The answers are yes, children 
and first men. 

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No children only. 
No first men only or no neither.

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So 4 answers. 
One yes, three no's and I'll 

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give you the results at the end.
Let's start off with Moat Kalin 

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and a description. 
Actually let me run through the 

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the sections real quick. 
Moat Kalin is the first one, but

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the other sections are the neck.
Now and then two hammers are 

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better than one. 
The unbowed, unbent, unbroken 

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arm of Dawn Age Dorn. 
Why so late? 

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The Northern bubble children's 
tower, the room where it 

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happened. 
Blood in the bogs, power of the 

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neck, necessity is the Mother 
Earth of invention. 

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High magic. 
What else is high magic? 

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And we'll finish off with 
Planetos goes on tilt yes, a 

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poker reference meant to be 
taken literally yes, the tilt of

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the planet is what I'm referring
to there. 

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So let's start with a quote 
about Moat Kalin right here. 

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The description. 
Where once a mighty curtain wall

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had stood, only scattered stones
remained, blocks of black basalt

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so large it must once have taken
100 men to hoist them into 

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place. 
Some had sunk so deep into the 

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bog that only a corner showed. 
Others lay strewn about like 

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some gods, abandoned toys, 
cracked and crumbling, spotted 

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with lichen. 
Last night's rain had left the 

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huge stones wet and glistening, 
and the morning sunlight made 

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them look as if they were coated
in some fine black oil. 

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That quote certainly has some 
people confused as to the 

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strange stone, the oily 
Blackstone that appears in 

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Ashrae and yen and on the basil 
skiles and the sea stone chair, 

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the base of the high tower, 
etcetera, etcetera. 

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This is only looks like that 
because it's wet. 

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It is maybe a clue, but it's 
definitely not the same thing. 

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These don't look like that when 
they're dry. 

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That's what we're told. 
Now, of course, they often look 

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wet and glistening because it's 
going to rain a lot there. 

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It's a humid place. 
But this, don't let this overly 

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fool you. 
Now, that doesn't mean those 

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other black stones, the oily 
black stones that were are like 

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that all the time. 
This doesn't mean that they 

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aren't basalt. 
It might mean that they were 

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altered. 
They may have started as basalt 

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and then magically altered, 
maybe even non magically altered

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something that makes them oily 
looking all the time. 

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I would suspect it is magical in
nature. 

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But yeah, we'll throw the 
possibility out there. 

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So the size of them is highly 
notable, right? 

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These are, this is supposed to 
be an ancient fortress at these 

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giant blocks, which also reminds
us of Yean and Ash Eye and 

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things like that. 
So it is a little. 

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But once again, that connection 
seems to be not complete. 

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It's it's maybe similar rather 
than something that is a direct 

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connection. 
But the the construction in 

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ancient time to something like 
this with huge blocks is 

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definitely curious but also not 
unheard of. 

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00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,160
We have the Old Town and 
Winterfell, the wall, we have 

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very large structures built in 
very ancient times in Westeros. 

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00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,240
So by itself Mokalen isn't 
special in that regard, but it 

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does deserve to be included on 
medium sized, shortish, medium 

202
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:30,400
sized list of buildings that are
maybe hard to source time wise 

203
00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:35,440
because of the construction 
style and sort of indicates some

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advanced skills. 
But clearly it happened a long 

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time ago. 
Just the question is how long 

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ago. 
So yeah, that's something to 

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keep in mind is the is the 
consideration there of the of 

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the stones and how large they 
are. 

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00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,400
But again, I think that could be
easily explained with just good 

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construction techniques. 
But maybe giants were used. 

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00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,800
That's definitely possible. 
Now that's the wall of MO Kale. 

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00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,400
And here's the main attraction, 
the Towers quote. 

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00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,520
Beyond stood the towers. 
The Drunkard's tower leaned as 

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if it were about to collapse, 
just as it had for half 1000 

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00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,920
years. 
The children's tower, thrust 

216
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,920
into the sky as straight as a 
spear, but it's shattered top 

217
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was open to the wind and rain. 
The gatehouse tower, squat and 

218
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wide, was the largest of the 
three, slimy with Moss, a 

219
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gnarled tree growing sideways 
from the stones of its north 

220
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side. 
Fragments of broken wall still 

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standing to the east and West. 
With blocks that size, you can 

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00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,960
understand why there's fragments
still here and there and who's 

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going to clean that up. 
You might have needed giants to 

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build it. 
You would need them to clean it 

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00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,240
up too. 
Even the maesters believe the 

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00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,560
north was the last Kingdom 
settled out of the known 

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00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:52,800
kingdoms. 
The major areas, obviously 

228
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,120
there's places around, you know,
like for example an episode we 

229
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,480
did recently on the far winds. 
Not all the Iron Islands was was

230
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,480
colonized then, just like not 
all the north was. 

231
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,360
But generally speaking, it's the
Kingdom people moved into the 

232
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,520
last for obvious reasons. 
It's colder and farther to the 

233
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,720
north of where they would have 
crossed over on the land bridge.

234
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,920
Which argues Moe Kalin was not 
built super early on. 

235
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,880
So if people weren't moving to 
the north, why would it be there

236
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,760
until later? 
And if people weren't being kept

237
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,640
out of the South or kicked out 
of the north, if you didn't have

238
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,240
a compelling reason to stop 
people from coming N then you 

239
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,160
wouldn't have built it either. 
So the Moe Moe Kane was built. 

240
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,800
I think it seems to, and it 
stands to reason because of 

241
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,040
people coming from the South 
that they didn't want, whether 

242
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,400
it was earlier First Men or and 
Oslater or both. 

243
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,560
Well, that's probably what we're
here to discuss. 

244
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,960
It certainly argues that the 
region has power, supernatural 

245
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,040
power, perhaps, definitely 
strategic power as a choke point

246
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,440
from north to South. 
That's kind of straightforward. 

247
00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,880
But let's not forget that we're 
talking ancient times before the

248
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,520
neck was flooded, so wasn't 
quite as narrow of a way 

249
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,880
through. 
It's not exactly great territory

250
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,680
before the flooding. 
It's barren hills and places 

251
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,640
near the coast which you know, 
beaches and drive. 

252
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,920
Not good territory for growing 
crops or grazing horses. 

253
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:23,600
It it got maybe worse with the 
flooding, but also became more 

254
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,800
filled with life because of 
swamps and bogs. 

255
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,560
They do have a lot of life, even
if it's not the best for humans.

256
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,880
So that's something to keep in 
mind is that there might be 

257
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,800
magic in the place and that it 
was very different before it was

258
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,360
altered, whether by humans, 
children or nature, or some 

259
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,440
combination of the above. 
MO Kalin was probably built by 

260
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,680
the Marsh King, the one who was 
eventually the the dynasty that 

261
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,160
was eventually overthrown by the
Starks. 

262
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,800
Some Rickard Stark married a 
Kranigman's, the Marsh King's 

263
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,960
daughter. 
We assume the Marsh King was a 

264
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,920
Kranigman. 
Maybe not Probably though. 

265
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,880
But that's yet another thing to 
interestingly consider is that 

266
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,040
before the flooding of the neck,
well, there wouldn't have been 

267
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,920
Kranigman, would there? 
These are people who have 

268
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,600
adapted and evolved to live in 
the swamps. 

269
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,800
Well, that's certainly what 
wasn't what they were before the

270
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,800
swamp was there, is it? 
It might be the same people like

271
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,160
the Kranigman descended from the
ancestors who lived there before

272
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,560
it was flooded, but they 
obviously had to do a lot of 

273
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,360
adapting post flood. 
The Marshmen. 

274
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,360
The Marshmen. 
Seriously, what do you call 

275
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:23,600
them? 
Before it was flooded? 

276
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,960
Neck men. 
Necklanders. 

277
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,400
That's a weird words. 
Like, I can kind of get why that

278
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,520
name isn't used, you know? 
So let's discuss a little more 

279
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:33,920
of that. 
The neck now and then. 

280
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,200
Martians. 
Martians. 

281
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:37,840
Well, that's after, right? 
And that's. 

282
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,440
Yeah. 
But still, I love that. 

283
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:40,400
Martians. 
That's great. 

284
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,400
So we don't know when it was 
flooded, but we don't need to 

285
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,920
know when it was flooded to 
imagine what it might have 

286
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,120
looked like. 
A big question with regards to 

287
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,720
timing is who was living there 
at the time? 

288
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,360
That's that's important. 
Most likely when it flooded, 

289
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,440
whether for natural or 
supernatural means it was 

290
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:58,560
sudden. 
It was a flood. 

291
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,080
You know, it came on quickly. 
So a lot of people probably lost

292
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,960
their homes, if not their lives 
might have flooded some of the 

293
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,320
children's caves. 
They probably were aware of it 

294
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,440
and, you know, got out of the 
way in advance if they were the 

295
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,600
ones responsible. 
So I doubt any of them got 

296
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,720
harmed, but it, you know, might 
have caused them to have to 

297
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,880
relocate some things. 
Now, it's important to 

298
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,960
understand. 
Let's get a little bit sciencey 

299
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,280
here, just for a minute. 
The neck is swamp and bog with 

300
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,200
some Fens near the sea. 
What does all that mean? 

301
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,480
What's the difference between 
swamp and bog and Fen? 

302
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,080
Well, let me try to describe it 
as briefly as possible. 

303
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,560
Bogs are more of a cold climate 
thing which so that fits and so 

304
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,640
that's why the northern neck, 
well the southern neck is more 

305
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,560
the swampy. 
Bogs are low oxygen, no fish, 

306
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,040
lots of peat. 
Peat is build up of dead Moss 

307
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,600
and other plant matter. 
Of course it's usable as a fuel 

308
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,120
and that is surely what the 
Kranigman do now. 

309
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,240
Bogs and swamps and Fens and 
marshes and all that. 

310
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,200
They also have different combos 
of fungus, animal and plant. 

311
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,960
Interesting thing about bogs is 
cold. 

312
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,160
Well as you might suspect cold 
makes plant growth slower but it

313
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:10,040
makes decay even slower. 
So lots and lots of slow 

314
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:15,640
decaying or not decaying matter 
happens in bogs along with all 

315
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,160
that peat build up because peat 
is dead matter as well. 

316
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:26,359
So meanwhile, a Fen is more of a
salt water or brackish type of 

317
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:27,440
bog. 
You could call it like the 

318
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,560
combination of it's kind of like
a bog, like I said, but higher 

319
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:38,240
alkalinity and often Fens come 
from groundwater and runoff, 

320
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,960
whereas bogs are more fed by 
rainwater and other small 

321
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,480
differences that we don't need 
to get into. 

322
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,360
But a swamp is a forest that's a
wetlands. 

323
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,200
So that's the point there. 
Is that OK? 

324
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,320
The children of the forest, 
that's their spot. 

325
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,520
The forests are their home. 
When they arranged the pact with

326
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,200
the First Men, that was the 
deal. 

327
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,160
Humans get most of the terrain, 
but the children get the 

328
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,640
forests. 
Now, neither In that 

329
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,680
description, it didn't really 
say who gets the swamps. 

330
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,960
No, neither humans or children. 
Maybe we're all that excited 

331
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,120
about that, but if you're going 
to say this, deep forests go to 

332
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,800
the children, well, I'm kind of 
going to assume the swamps are 

333
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,920
included in that cause swamps 
are very unappealing to most 

334
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,680
humans and that again, they are 
a type of forest, a wetland 

335
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,360
forest. 
So I also question similar 

336
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,320
questions here. 
The second hammer of the waters 

337
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:31,920
is supposedly what flooded the 
Neck. 

338
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,520
So that would be high, any high 
magic that came in this area 

339
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,920
before, because there's some 
rumor as we'll get to that. 

340
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,200
The first hammer of the waters, 
the one that broke the armor of 

341
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,880
Dorn that was also cast at MO 
Kalin, Some traditions say it 

342
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,080
was done at the Isle of Faces. 
Both of those make sense, but 

343
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,520
you might have guessed the aisle
faces more certainly because 

344
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,360
it's just more distinctly 
associated with magic and the 

345
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:56,840
old gods and the children, 
whereas MO Kaelin, it's a little

346
00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,440
more uncertain, right? 
Is it the place of the children?

347
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,200
Is it a place of the first Men? 
Is it both? 

348
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:03,720
Yeah. 
What's going on there? 

349
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,760
Right. 
It's not as it's not as certain.

350
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,280
So one question I would have 
there is where woods were there 

351
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,440
any where woods, hard trees in 
the neck that got flooded or 

352
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,000
submerged? 
Because there don't appear to be

353
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,720
any there. 
Now, we've been to MO Kalen a 

354
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,120
few times. 
We went there through Catlin's 

355
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,520
POV and A Game of Thrones when 
the war was starting. 

356
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,160
We went there with Theon in the 
last book when his father wanted

357
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,120
to get through the neck without 
any casualties. 

358
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:33,160
And and Ramsey pulled his whole 
maneuver there with getting 

359
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,920
Theon to bring the Ironborn out 
of the castles by trickery and 

360
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,320
then, you know, flaying them 
all. 

361
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,520
Ramsey doing his thing. 
I can't recall any weirwoods in 

362
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,160
any swamps anywhere. 
That doesn't mean they don't 

363
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,760
exist. 
But the fact that we have 0 

364
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,280
examples is like maybe that's 
not their where they can grow. 

365
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,880
Maybe weirwoods can't live in 
swamp. 

366
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,000
So you can maybe understand why 
that might not be a great place 

367
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,120
for the children. 
They might not love swamps 

368
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,760
because there's no. 
Weirwoods there, but if any of 

369
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,520
the wetland types have 
weirwoods, it would be swamps 

370
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,800
because those are the ones that 
are forested. 

371
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,840
Bogs don't have trees, Marshes 
don't really either. 

372
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,160
And Fens also, yeah, some of 
them have trees a little bit, 

373
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,800
but it's the it's the swamps 
that have the significant amount

374
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,960
of trees. 
Let's move on to two hammers are

375
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,440
better than one. 
To be very clear, the Hammer of 

376
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,200
the Waters is the name given to 
the spell that caused the 

377
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,000
separation of Essos and 
Westeros, IE the breaking of the

378
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,680
arm of Dorn. 
The second incident of the 

379
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,800
Hammer of the Water is less 
certain, but it's supposedly 

380
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,240
resulted in the flooding of the 
Neck. 

381
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,640
This is sometimes meant to, 
we're meant to believe that the 

382
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,400
first one worked, even though, I
mean, the spell worked even 

383
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,520
though it didn't accomplish 
necessarily what it was set out 

384
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,160
to accomplish, which was to stop
keep the First Men from over 

385
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,160
running Westeros. 
Well, that's that happened 

386
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,760
anyway. 
You know, even cutting them off 

387
00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,400
the land bridge. 
Well, there's too many humans 

388
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:00,960
already. 
They're breathing really fast. 

389
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,000
Yeah, it's too late. 
So later in the episode, we'll 

390
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,480
consider maybe that wasn't the 
purpose because, yeah, it's 

391
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,920
like, well, why? 
Why did they do that? 

392
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,560
It was too late. 
Well, maybe they had a different

393
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,280
reason. 
Anyway, we also have to question

394
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:17,320
whether we're told the Neck, the
flooding of the Neck was maybe 

395
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,160
not what they intended. 
They were like they tried to do 

396
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,600
something like the breaking of 
the Arm of Dorne and it didn't 

397
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,960
quite take. 
It was only a half the spell, 

398
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,240
only half worked. 
It flooded the Neck, but it 

399
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,560
didn't shatter the land bridge. 
You could still cross. 

400
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,760
It's a lot harder to cross, but 
you can still do it. 

401
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,680
You don't need a boat. 
Whereas you know from Essos to 

402
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:41,280
Westeros you need a boat. 
So that is curious, right? 

403
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,360
Maybe the goal was to separate 
the North and South entirely to 

404
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:48,360
make a N throws. 
Northwester Rose, for lack of a 

405
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:51,680
better term, to separate them. 
A little more on that later. 

406
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,160
But we can't assume that it was 
a spell that just came up short,

407
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,200
that maybe the intent was to 
flood the neck and not to just 

408
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,520
destroy it. 
We, we are told sort of given 

409
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,400
this assumption, but we should 
question that assumption at 

410
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,920
least a little bit. 
So maybe so. 

411
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,800
The conventional wisdom says the
first hammer worked. 

412
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,720
The second one, not quite. 
But yeah, that's the kind of 

413
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,440
thinking we need to like, turn 
over and examine and maybe 

414
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,960
consider that it might not be 
accurate. 

415
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,960
But why mode Kaylin? 
Why did they do it there? 

416
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,240
Why even expect it to work? 
Did the children perform such 

417
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,200
magics before? 
I'm going to guess no. 

418
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:34,080
After all, why before any humans
came to Westeros, why would they

419
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,160
be delving into earthquake magic
or blowing up continents and 

420
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,120
causing volcano? 
What would be the purpose? 

421
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,080
They don't have some species 
that's driving them to the point

422
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,280
of extinction. 
The giants were not that big of 

423
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,600
a threat to them. 
They were able to coexist with 

424
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,000
the giants for thousands of 
years without being 00. 

425
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,440
They're going to kill us all 
right. 

426
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,240
But when humanity came along, 
they were like, oh, oh, not only

427
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,400
might they kill us all, they're 
killing our gods. 

428
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,360
The giants weren't a problem in 
that regard. 

429
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,080
And in fact, they were probably 
on the same team if anything. 

430
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,120
So that is something to really 
consider. 

431
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,600
Why Moat Kalin? 
My first instinct as well. 

432
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,680
There might have been Maybe it's
a hinge of the world. 

433
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,320
Maybe it's a magical place. 
Maybe there's caves underneath 

434
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,480
the children lived in. 
You know, there's a lot of hills

435
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,080
around that area. 
It's possible. 

436
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,320
And even if we don't have the we
can't pinpoint it, There might 

437
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,160
be some other reason that we 
just haven't considered. 

438
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,440
Point being, the location is 
interesting. 

439
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,760
Why that spot? 
It's it's come up for a bunch of

440
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,160
it's a defensive point. 
It's a magical spot. 

441
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,080
It's a question of who did what 
there a lot of questions, but so

442
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,960
one of which is why, why did it 
start there? 

443
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,480
Apart from the choke, the fact 
that it's a choke point, why 

444
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,600
would the breaking of the arm of
Dorn have been cast there? 

445
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,440
Well, because there's magic 
there. 

446
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,480
There must be something about 
the location. 

447
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,360
There must be something inherent
about the terrain, a place 

448
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,040
that's close to some sort of 
energy sort. 

449
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,480
I don't know, like it's hard to 
put into words, but I think you 

450
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:02,920
get the gist of what I'm saying 
here. 

451
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,240
And as we go through this, it's 
always important to remember who

452
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,800
our main source is. 
Not our only source, Our main 

453
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,400
source, The maesters, right? 
We're getting, we get a lot of 

454
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,640
this from the World of Ice and 
Fire. 

455
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,120
We get a lot of this from 
maesters. 

456
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,160
Throughout the course of A Song 
of Ice and Fire, throughout the 

457
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,600
story, we hear Bran and other 
people talking about what about 

458
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,400
this ancient history. 
Some of what they're repeating 

459
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,320
is what was told to them by 
maesters. 

460
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,920
Some of it was told to them by 
old man or other people. 

461
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,640
So there's a little of both 
thrown in there, which this is a

462
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,320
nice way that George balances 
out the the legends with the 

463
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,040
academics. 
And it's another thing where you

464
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,640
don't, you can't quite get all 
the way there to combine them, 

465
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,000
but you've got this room to 
imagine how they might connect 

466
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,440
and room to play and and 
theorize without it being too 

467
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,320
wide open. 
And Speaking of Bran, well, he 

468
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,520
is the one chance we have to 
maybe really get some solid 

469
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,920
answers on this. 
What if Bran just casts his gaze

470
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,000
back in time to the breaking of 
the arm? 

471
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,760
We could see that through his 
mind. 

472
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,040
I wouldn't get my hopes up on 
that, but it's absolutely 

473
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,000
possible, right? 
He might even get answers as to 

474
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,600
why. 
I mean, the First Men were told 

475
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,880
they came in force. 
It wasn't just a trickle. 

476
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,080
It was a sudden surge of 
migrations which could imply 

477
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,800
they were driven out. 
A lot of migrations, especially 

478
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,520
mass migrations, happened 
because of some disaster or soon

479
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,520
to be disaster or a threat, 
right? 

480
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,280
The free folk right now are 
fleeing the North because of the

481
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,240
others. 
They're trying to migrate beyond

482
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,920
into the other side of the wall 
because of a bigger threat, 

483
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:44,000
right? 
The Andols, explicitly, a lot of

484
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,000
their migrations were because 
the Valyrians were dominant and 

485
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,760
way more powerful than them. 
If you look at and all values 

486
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,680
and Valyrian values, they're 
almost exactly the opposite. 

487
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:55,840
Valyrians are like enslaved the 
weak. 

488
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,120
The Andals are like knighthood, 
protect the weak. 

489
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,240
Yeah, they don't live up to 
those values, but that's what 

490
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,840
the idea was initially, right? 
Valyrians are like, yeah, 

491
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,680
incest, that's fine. 
Andals hate incest. 

492
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,040
There's no culture that hates 
incest more than the Andals. 

493
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,640
So you can see how these things 
are directly opposed. 

494
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,240
Like so many Andal Andal 
cultural touchstones are anti 

495
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,880
Valyrian because that's who 
their big enemy was. 

496
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,040
Even though this was thousands 
of years ago, those things 

497
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,760
remain those same kind of 
touchstones as those echoes from

498
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,240
the past are visible here, even 
if we can't quite touch them. 

499
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,320
We know they're there, we just 
don't know exactly what we're 

500
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,840
looking for. 
The Rhinar too, another example.

501
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,240
The Rhinar fled the Valyrians 
and had to migrate, and their 

502
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,640
migration was more of an 
odyssey, but it certainly falls 

503
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,280
into this category. 
The Children of the Forest might

504
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,640
have been thinking along similar
lines with with this magic of we

505
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,920
want to cut ourselves off. 
You know, we want to first, 

506
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,520
we're trying to cut the humans 
off from coming to our 

507
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,760
continent. 
When that didn't work, well, 

508
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,800
maybe we'll just cut part of the
continent off and the part they 

509
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,920
least want, the North, the one 
that they migrated to last. 

510
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,160
Well maybe we can keep that for 
ourselves. 

511
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,000
Whether or not we include other 
humans there is part of the 

512
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,520
question we have to answer this 
episode, or at least delve into.

513
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,640
Did the children and the humans 
who worship the old gods work on

514
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,680
this together to separate from 
non God non old gods 

515
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,160
worshippers? 
Or was it just a function of the

516
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,840
children? 
Or was it just the first men who

517
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,440
worship the old gods and the 
children were out of the 

518
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,680
picture? 
Is it similar to the Paul we 

519
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,760
started this episode with? 
All these? 

520
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,120
Are these multiple permutations 
that seem to follow the same 

521
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:31,360
pattern? 
Children, Children, First men, 

522
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:32,840
or just first Men? 
Or neither? 

523
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,160
There's four options to keep 
repeating themselves here. 

524
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,800
The unbowed, unbent, unbroken 
arm of Dawn. 

525
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,520
Age Dorn. 
So to help us understand and 

526
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,160
theorize and imagine what 
happened at Moat Kalin in the 

527
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,920
neck, we should examine what 
happened with the first hammer 

528
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,480
of the waters. 
Is it a natural starting point? 

529
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,280
Well, unnatural starting point 
maybe. 

530
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,120
Or maybe both. 
Let's hear what the World of Ice

531
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:57,840
and Fire has to say about the 
older of the two Hammers. 

532
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,640
According to the most well 
regarded accounts from the 

533
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:07,280
Citadel, anywhere from 8000 to 
12,000 years ago, in the 

534
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,000
southernmost reaches of 
Westeros, a new people crossed 

535
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,960
the strip of land that bridged 
the Narrow Sea and connected the

536
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,880
eastern lands with the land in 
which the children and giants 

537
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,360
lived. 
It was here that the first men 

538
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,400
came into Dorn via the broken 
arm, which was not yet broken. 

539
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,880
Why these people left their 
homelands is lost to all 

540
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,480
knowing, but when they came, 
they came in force. 

541
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,280
Thousands entered and began to 
settle the lands, and as the 

542
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,320
decades passed they pushed 
farther and farther north. 

543
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:52,040
Such tales as we have of those 
migratory days are not to be 

544
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,920
trusted, for they suggest that 
within a few short years the 

545
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,240
First Men had moved beyond the 
Neck and into the North. 

546
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,160
Yet in truth it would have taken
decades, even centuries, for 

547
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,800
this to occur. 
What does seem to be accurate 

548
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,800
from all the tales, however, is 
that the First Men soon came to 

549
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,440
war with the Children of the 
Forest. 

550
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,680
That maesterly point there that 
it would take decades, if not 

551
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,800
centuries for humans to migrate 
to the north of Westeros to 

552
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,200
think is pretty well supported 
by what we know about the 

553
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,280
movement of ancient peoples on 
Earth. 

554
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,560
And I'm talking about like 
prehistoric man precisely in the

555
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,960
same manner. 
We have a very similar example. 

556
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,560
Humanity migrated across the 
Bering Strait into North 

557
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,520
America, right? 
There were no truly indigenous 

558
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,760
people in the Americas. 
There were the first peoples 

559
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,120
that came over and well, they, 
they were the first ones to get 

560
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,560
here besides the animals. 
So that's fair to call them 

561
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,800
indigenous because they were 
first. 

562
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,360
But you know, technically 
speaking, it's very similar to 

563
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,200
this. 
There were no people in Westeros

564
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,440
until people walked over that 
land bridge similar to the real 

565
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,640
world. 
And so we can, as modern science

566
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,640
is able to track the migration 
of those peoples with date 

567
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:14,600
carbon dating and analyzing 
sites and seeing how far out 

568
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,960
they go and and where they 
started, where they ended, 

569
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,560
things like that. 
And note the consideration that 

570
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,960
we mentioned earlier here that 
the first men were fleeing 

571
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,160
something. 
They came in force, it says, and

572
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,640
you don't. 
Large migrations don't just 

573
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:26,720
happen. 
People just pick up. 

574
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,280
Like, giant communities don't 
just pick up and leave without 

575
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,400
some very compelling reason. 
People came to Westeros and 

576
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,200
began moving in. 
Remember, one of the first 

577
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,120
things that happened was they 
saw the heart trees, and they 

578
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,680
were like, whoa, that's scary. 
Where do these trees with faces 

579
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,840
come? 
There's no people here, but 

580
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,800
there's trees with faces. 
Whoa. 

581
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,240
Yeah, that would be scary, 
wouldn't it? 

582
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,400
But it's an important 
chronological detail that the 

583
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,840
trees had faces before humans 
arrived. 

584
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,680
So there's some thinking, some 
theorizing that maybe to make a 

585
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,520
heart tree, you have to engage 
in sacrifice. 

586
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,680
Well, if that's true, it doesn't
have to be human sacrifice 

587
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,480
necessarily, because the 
children clearly didn't activate

588
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,200
these ancient heart trees with 
people when there were no 

589
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,240
people, right? 
That's impossible. 

590
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:06,760
Maybe they were sacrificing each
other. 

591
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,040
Maybe they sacrificed the 
occasional giant. 

592
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,280
I don't know how they could, you
know, hold them down like that. 

593
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,920
Maybe you get them, drug them or
something, or maybe just other 

594
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,640
animals. 
You know, it's an ancient 

595
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,400
foreign. 
It's not, it's not what we call 

596
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,960
blood magic, but it might kind 
of fit there in a sense because 

597
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,480
it's involves blood sacrifice 
and the killing of other beings 

598
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,680
to create magic or to create a 
result. 

599
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,600
Just like we don't assume the 
first men are a monolith or the 

600
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,160
end alls are a monolith, or 
hopefully we don't consider that

601
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,640
about real world groups or 
characters or people or 

602
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,040
countries. 
The children are not a monolith.

603
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,080
They they didn't all agree on 
everything. 

604
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,440
At least we have no reason to 
assume that it's not the 

605
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,680
default, right? 
You don't default believe. 

606
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,080
Well, they're a culture, so of 
they're a civilization, so they 

607
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,080
must have been on the same page 
about most things. 

608
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,480
No civilization has ever been 
like that. 

609
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,680
Oh, there's always huge 
disagreements. 

610
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,560
Sometimes there's the, the 
people that are in charge are 

611
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,080
the the good ones. 
And the disagreements go well 

612
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,880
because you've got the, the 
people in power are the good 

613
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,720
people. 
But that's usually not how it 

614
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,200
goes either. 
It's usually more of a mix, 

615
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,400
right? 
And that's probably true with 

616
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,040
the children. 
You, you might have had some, 

617
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,600
they might have, some of them 
have been pretty high minded, 

618
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,560
but some of them it might have 
been just really bloody about 

619
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,440
like no, kill all humans. 
That's it. 

620
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,560
We're like, it's like Bender 
from Futurama is the only, 

621
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,000
that's the only answer. 
There's no, there's no 

622
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,720
compromise here. 
That's it. 

623
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,280
You know, kill them all. 
That's the only thing. 

624
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,040
That's the only thing we can do 
because they are a existential 

625
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:30,880
threat to us. 
It's us or them, you know, 

626
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,760
that's how some of them might 
have seen it, and likewise some 

627
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,920
of the humans would have seen it
that way too. 

628
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,400
They're like, well, these guys 
are a threat to us. 

629
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,200
We want to live here. 
Our families are in danger 

630
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,080
because of them. 
It's them or us. 

631
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,760
Obviously that's not how it 
worked out in the long run. 

632
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,880
They, the children, and the 
First Men did eventually learn 

633
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,440
to coexist. 
It took the pact potentially and

634
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:50,920
maybe thousands of years of 
worrying. 

635
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Maybe not quite that long, but 
maybe. 

636
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,200
And after the pact, things were 
good for a while at least 

637
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,360
between humans and and children 
for the most part. 

638
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,600
Again, not a monolith. 
There would have been some 

639
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,000
exceptions, but until the end, 
all's came. 

640
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,840
Or maybe other waves of First 
Men who weren't part of the 

641
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,600
group that became Old Gods 
worshippers. 

642
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,920
Because again, the First Men is 
not one culture. 

643
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,840
It's an amalgam of cultures that
we can't name because we don't 

644
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,560
know anything about them. 
We don't know the differences 

645
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,120
between all these people that 
migrated from Essos. 

646
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,200
All we know is First Men. 
But there would have been 

647
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,640
differences. 
We have to assume that those 

648
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,200
differences equate to not 
agreeing about everything, 

649
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,960
right? 
It's a very basic thing to 

650
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,080
imagine so, but from the 
children's perspective, because 

651
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,640
the early first men probably 
weren't that magical or if they 

652
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,120
were, they weren't working with 
magic on the level the children 

653
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,280
that may have come later, but it
certainly didn't happen at the 

654
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,000
start. 
So the early children, they're 

655
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,560
seeing these humans come over 
and a lot of them are panicking 

656
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,720
or worrying or looking into the 
future, even potentially with 

657
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,640
their green seer magic and 
seeing a dark, a dark cloud, so 

658
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,200
to speak. 
Maybe they don't know exactly 

659
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,680
what to do, but it's going to 
cause a, you know, a ripple 

660
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,240
through their society, whatever 
society may be, for lack of a 

661
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,560
better word, their civilization.
So we don't know that the 

662
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,400
children can cause earthquakes 
or make volcanoes go off. 

663
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,560
But they again, they are the 
those who sing the song of 

664
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,080
earth, Earth magic. 
That's their Forte. 

665
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:25,760
Earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, 
that is all earth magic. 

666
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,719
I mean, the flooding is water, 
but you cause a flood by 

667
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,960
breaking the land and the water 
rushes in. 

668
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,719
You're not actually controlling 
the water, you're controlling 

669
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,600
the land. 
And the water does its own 

670
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,719
thing. 
The water goes where it goes. 

671
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,760
Just let it do its thing, let it
go where it wants to go, and 

672
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,639
it'll. 
Yeah, you don't need to control 

673
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,960
it, just unleash it. 
So it really does. 

674
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:43,840
There is a lot of crossover 
there. 

675
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,679
And you can understand why these
beliefs are persistent, because 

676
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,960
it's the type of magic the 
children already are associated 

677
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,239
with. 
It's like, yeah, they they have 

678
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,159
control over nature and, and 
geology. 

679
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:55,880
Those kind of things that we're 
thinking about in scientific 

680
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,760
terms, that's their that's their
scientific area of expertise. 

681
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,480
Thinking about it in magical 
terms, yeah, it's Earth. 

682
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,920
They have Earth magic. 
They don't, they don't have air 

683
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,120
magic. 
They don't have water magic. 

684
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,960
They don't have fire magic 
necessarily. 

685
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,640
Maybe there's a little overlap 
there. 

686
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,200
But Earth magic, yeah, that 
seems to be their domain. 

687
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,680
But going farther with that, 
before there were any humans, we

688
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,680
I mentioned this earlier, why 
would they delve into destroying

689
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,480
land bridges? 
They there was no reason to, 

690
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,320
they had no compelling need for 
that. 

691
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,880
But they might have started to 
learn new magic, like, hey, we 

692
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,080
have a new threat. 
It's like it's like war, right? 

693
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,320
Real World War, when you have 
two nations go to war and it's 

694
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,360
similar level of kill or be 
killed, like one of us is going 

695
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,480
to end here. 
Half of the society is working 

696
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,240
on innovations to better war 
machines, better defenses 

697
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,080
against war machines, better 
medical things, you know, better

698
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,560
ways to heal people. 
So war is awful, but there are a

699
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,200
tiny few good things that come 
out of it. 

700
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,360
These innovations in health and 
not the weapons of war are not 

701
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,960
good innovations, but the the 
health and the healthcare, 

702
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,040
things like that, the better. 
I mean, you take for example, 

703
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,080
someone loses an arm or a leg. 
If you're a doctor, how many 

704
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,400
times you have to deal with 
that? 

705
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:18,720
Every once in a while, I guess. 
But during war it's like 

706
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,480
constant, right? 
Like it's a day-to-day, like 

707
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,880
multiples per day or if not 
more. 

708
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,520
So you just in sheer practice, 
it's gruesome to think about. 

709
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,280
But like that is that's the 
truth. 

710
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,280
The more practice you have with 
something, the better you're 

711
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,200
going to get at it. 
So what I'm getting at here is 

712
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,200
the children would have started 
to delve into new potential for 

713
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,360
their own magic. 
OK, We're earth magic people, 

714
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:47,200
how can we use this as a weapon 
against these foes that we've 

715
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,120
never had to deal with before? 
They probably hadn't didn't use 

716
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,760
it as a weapon very much at all 
'cause their only real foe is 

717
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,560
the giants, right? 
And they didn't need to use 

718
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,160
grand magics to deal with them. 
They're just not that dangerous 

719
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,560
of a foe. 
They could outsmart them, you 

720
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,920
know, like the giants aren't, 
aren't big thinkers, you know, 

721
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,360
they're not building cities or 
designing weapons of their own. 

722
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,320
They're not advancing. 
So when the but when humans 

723
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,760
come, the children are like, OK,
we got to figure out how to do 

724
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,000
big Matt. 
We got to figure out how to get 

725
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,440
more out of our own sorceress 
abilities. 

726
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,160
We got to figure out how to use 
this as weapons. 

727
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,840
We got to turn this. 
We got to militarize what we 

728
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,480
know. 
Why would they have done a mass 

729
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,160
sacrifice to cause some big 
spell had no reason to, but now 

730
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,920
they do. 
This is an era where they were 

731
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,120
exploring the dark limits of 
their own potential places they 

732
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,640
didn't want to go, but now they 
are compelled to because it's 

733
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,720
kill or be killed time. 
So this, I figure, is when they 

734
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:48,160
learned how to do some of these 
grand epic magics that they just

735
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,400
had no reason to do before. 
It's even possible the children 

736
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,400
learn this from someone else, 
right there is that story in the

737
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,920
World of Ice and Fire or that 
allusion to the possibility that

738
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,480
Old Town is so, so old that in 
really ancient times there were 

739
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,760
like magical trading going on, 
like swapping sorceress secrets 

740
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,200
is what's alluded to there. 
It sounds like really high 

741
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,680
magicky. 
But hey, that's the territory 

742
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,840
we're working with today. 
And this is supported. 

743
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,360
This isn't something I'm pulling
out of my butt. 

744
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,720
It's it's in the World of Ice 
and Fire. 

745
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,160
There is some talk of that that 
Old Town, you know, it was a 

746
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,960
place of sorceress exchange, 
like people trading secrets 

747
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,120
about magic, whether the great 
Empire, the dawn was involved, 

748
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,240
whether Valyria didn't exist yet
or whether they did, whether 

749
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:34,880
there's other cultures that are 
long gone. 

750
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,520
If the children, the children 
are delving into magic, Why not 

751
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,720
learn from other people? 
Why not trade? 

752
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:42,840
Why not swap that? 
It isn't just goods and and 

753
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,880
services that get traded between
different cultures. 

754
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,480
Why not magic? 
So this could be where they get 

755
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,080
some of those ideas like, well, 
we know that the the people from

756
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,200
the great Empire, the dawn, 
they'd have their own word for 

757
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,160
that. 
Did you know the shadow? 

758
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,560
Where did that come from? 
That's some grand sorcery, 

759
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,640
probably maybe an accident or 
maybe not. 

760
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,040
And then much later, more 
recently, we have things like 

761
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,280
the Doom, right? 
So these are all all these 

762
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,520
things have the smell of sorcery
over them, whether it's the 

763
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,880
faceless men killing the 
sorcerer's that held back the 14

764
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,400
flames that allowed it to 
finally be unleashed, whether 

765
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,040
it's the Roynar supposedly 
casting waterspouts to bring 

766
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,120
down Dragons or causing, you 
know, grayscale, the rising of 

767
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,200
the Roin to flood cities, things
like that. 

768
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,720
High magic is supported. 
It's not common, but it's there,

769
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:32,760
right? 
It's there. 

770
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,800
It's absolutely there. 
There's plenty of examples of 

771
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:35,840
it. 
In fact, at the end of this 

772
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,640
episode, near the end of this 
episode, we're going to go 

773
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,760
through a few things that we 
think are of a similar level, 

774
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,400
power level or related in in 
terms of concept. 

775
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,400
So, yeah, I wonder, did the 
hammer, the waters, did the 

776
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,080
maybe they learned that from the
Roynar? 

777
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,440
Like that's water magic, right? 
I mean, it could be water magic.

778
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,640
I I've already said that I think
it could be explained as earth 

779
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,560
magic. 
You blow up the land, the water 

780
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,320
floods in. 
But we can't be too strict with 

781
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,880
that interpretation. 
I can't be like, yeah, that's 

782
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,600
definitely how it works. 
That's definitely it. 

783
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,760
There could be overlap. 
Maybe the the Roynish, maybe 

784
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,720
it's maybe it was rising the 
water rather than lowering the 

785
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,280
land, you know, so that. 
Who knows? 

786
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:13,920
We don't exactly know the 
mechanism here. 

787
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,760
We know there's water and land 
involved, we know the end 

788
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,280
result. 
But yeah, in between, what made 

789
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,920
it happen what, what specific 
hand gestures or blood sacrifice

790
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,800
or what regions were used to 
cast this spell? 

791
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,080
Who knows? 
So we're always on the lookout 

792
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,640
for magical overlap, things like
this, where what one culture has

793
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,640
done with magic is similar to 
some other version, right? 

794
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,480
For the simplest example that 
I've used repeatedly is 

795
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,480
foretelling green seers flame 
reading blood magic like Maggie 

796
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,240
the frog takes, you know, sips 
on your fingers blood and tells 

797
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,640
you your future foretelling. 
And and since Maggie was 

798
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,200
accurate with that, we have to 
take it. 

799
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,640
We have to believe that that's a
thing, right? 

800
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,040
So there's multiple types of 
foretelling in this world, 

801
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,040
multiple types of foretelling, 
and there's probably multiple 

802
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,920
types of most magics, right? 
Or at least it's something 

803
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,640
that's worth considering. 
It's a idea that we can't 

804
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,240
dismiss. 
Yeah. 

805
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:09,760
So children would never have 
sacrificed humans before if they

806
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:10,760
do that. 
I mean, there's lots of 

807
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,160
allusions to this. 
And as well as humans 

808
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,040
sacrificing other humans, 
whether there's any real power 

809
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,400
in that, I tend to believe there
is. 

810
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,240
We've seen even singular 
examples of that. 

811
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:24,480
Like maybe Mary Mazdoor is an 
example of that. 

812
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,520
Certainly Macoro kills that 
maester and the the wind gets 

813
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,440
better, you know, So these it's 
definitely real. 

814
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,160
What isn't necessarily real is 
killing 100 people to get a 

815
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,200
massive spell. 
We don't know if that's true, 

816
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,280
but if killing one person can 
get you a little bit of wind, 

817
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,760
why not killing 100 people 
getting you a lot of wind? 

818
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,720
Maybe a hurricane. 
Isn't that possible? 

819
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:49,520
It doesn't. 
It's not that much of A leap 

820
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,360
logic wise. 
It's just a matter of like 

821
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,000
intensity or of scale. 
Like killing one guy to get a 

822
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,960
little bit of wind is 1, killing
ten guys to get ten wins is 10. 

823
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,040
You know how high does this go? 
How can you kill 1000 people and

824
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,880
get a wind 1000 times more 
intense? 

825
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,840
And now consider that is for 
earth magic. 

826
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,360
If you can kill one person and 
get a little tiny tremor, 

827
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,560
assuming that's how it works, 
sacrificing 1000 people might 

828
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,240
shatter the armor Dorn. 
And this is alluded to. 

829
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,600
Even the World of Ice and Fire 
considers this as a possibility.

830
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,280
Even the maesters are like, 
yeah, that could be what 

831
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,040
happened. 
Because the maesters, even as 

832
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:32,200
much as they downplay magic, 
they don't go so far as to say 

833
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,440
it never existed. 
They in fact come right out and 

834
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,040
say there's no doubt. 
Magic used to be a big deal. 

835
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,240
It doesn't seem to be anymore. 
Now They seem to be missing the 

836
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,480
whole ebb and flow of it that 
we're made aware of as, as 

837
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,920
readers, that it can come and go
and that the right now it's 

838
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,560
coming. 
And before it went, you know, 

839
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,800
maybe, maybe because of the 
Dragons dying out, it went, but 

840
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,680
it's coming back now. 
And it was never fully gone, 

841
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,520
right. 
So take a few 100, maybe 

842
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,240
decades, centuries, maybe not 
even that long of war between 

843
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,640
the children and the humans. 
Each capture some of the others.

844
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,600
Maybe the children are slowly 
capturing enough humans to cast 

845
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,800
some big old spell. 
They're like, once we have 1000 

846
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,120
human captives, we can pull this
off, cast this big old spell. 

847
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,240
And it took them a while. 
It took them a while to gather 

848
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:22,400
all those captives. 
Meanwhile, the opportunity, the 

849
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,320
window maybe has closed. 
They're like, yeah, there's too 

850
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,960
many humans have crossed over. 
But maybe they don't know. 

851
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,840
Maybe they don't have all the 
information we have. 

852
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,400
They might think, yeah, OK, 
there's a lot of humans here and

853
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,080
they breed really fast, but 
still, there's value in cutting 

854
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,680
more of them off. 
Like maybe they're going to 

855
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,400
expand rapidly, but they'll 
expand more rapidly if there's 

856
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,880
more of them here to begin with.
There's still value in slowing 

857
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,520
the trickle of humanity, even if
it's not a full solution. 

858
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,200
No one ever said the Hammer of 
Waters was supposed to be the 

859
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,640
end of it. 
You know, we, we couldn't know 

860
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,800
even if it was right. 
And we don't know anything about

861
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,400
what happened then. 
So I think about this a lot, 

862
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,200
though. 
What wouldn't to to George has 

863
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,440
always been very clear that 
magic should have a cost. 

864
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,720
So if you're going to cast a big
old spell like earth shattering 

865
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:11,240
magic, that cost has to be 
enormously high. 

866
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,000
It might be a cost paid for by 
sacrificial victims. 

867
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,000
It might be a cost paid for by 
the spellcaster. 

868
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,080
It might be both the person who 
cast the the green seer at this 

869
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:23,800
point, we're we're going super 
ancient. 

870
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,840
So we're, we're considering a 
child of the Forest Green seer 

871
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,600
or several green seers who were 
children of the forest. 

872
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,120
Maybe casting the spell killed 
them or messed their brain up, 

873
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,840
you know, made them go insane or
something like that, or who 

874
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,360
knows, just cause them great 
suffering, you know, permanent 

875
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,720
damage, something like that. 
Maybe they can't cast spells 

876
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:43,880
anymore after that. 
Maybe it burned them out. 

877
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,200
They can no longer touch the, 
the energies, right? 

878
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,880
Something like that. 
You know, we're trying to try 

879
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,080
not to go too far with this, but
we we're, it's very fertile 

880
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,120
ground for imagination, 
especially if we're talking 

881
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,120
about the fact that they're 
trying to deal with new, if 

882
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,960
they're trying to come up with 
new sorceries, they're trying to

883
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,800
come up with, as I used the term
before, to weaponize the magic 

884
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,960
they already had. 
Well, that's not just gonna 

885
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,560
sounds like a switch you flip, 
right? 

886
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,120
Especially in George's world 
where magic has a high cost, 

887
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,280
where it's dangerous. 
If you're experimenting with 

888
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:17,520
magic, dangerous magic, violent 
magic, earth shattering magic. 

889
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,000
What are we supposed to imagine 
that it just went well the first

890
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,160
time? 
No, of course not. 

891
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,520
There's got to be mistakes, 
accidents, misinterpretations. 

892
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,720
Yeah, just things going wrong, 
you know, whatever, whatever 

893
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,720
that might mean. 
Here's an informative bit that 

894
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:34,200
alludes to the children having 
to adapt, as we're saying, at 

895
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,240
need due to the threat of 
humanity. 

896
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:38,720
This is a little more mundane. 
Not sorceress, but it gets at 

897
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:42,480
the point I'm saying quote. 
The first men, who had brought 

898
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,400
with them strange gods, horses, 
cattle, and weapons of bronze, 

899
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,840
were also larger and stronger 
than the children, and so they 

900
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,920
were a significant threat. 
The hunters among the children, 

901
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:01,560
their wood dancers, became their
warriors as well. 

902
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,600
But for all their secret arts of
tree and leaf, they could only 

903
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,000
slow the first men in their 
advance. 

904
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,880
The Green Seers employed their 
arts, and tales say that they 

905
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,440
could call the beasts of marsh, 
forest and air to fight on their

906
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,840
behalf. 
Dire wolves and monstrous snow 

907
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:29,240
bears, cave lions and eagles, 
mammoths and serpents and more. 

908
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,520
But the first Men proved too 
powerful, and the children are 

909
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,720
said to have been driven to a 
desperate act. 

910
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,840
Legend has it that the great 
flood that broke the land bridge

911
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,040
that is now the broken arm was 
the work of the green seers who 

912
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,120
gathered at the place that is 
now MO Kaelin. 

913
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,080
Take note of that wording. 
The place that is now MO Kaelin,

914
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,400
because of course there wouldn't
have been a castle there when 

915
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,000
the children, the children 
didn't build a castle there and 

916
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:02,920
they're trying to break the 
broken arm. 

917
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,560
Yeah, even the the First Men 
wouldn't have built a castle all

918
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,440
the way up there that early 
either, most likely. 

919
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,520
And if they had, then why then 
how can the children even be 

920
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,680
there to cast a spell if there's
already First Men castle there? 

921
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:14,800
That's an enemy of them. 
Yeah. 

922
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,200
It doesn't really add up, does 
it? 

923
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,240
So that's why it says the place 
that is now Mote Kalin, the 

924
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:20,880
Neck. 
It's the neck, northern part of 

925
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,040
the Neck, I suppose. 
And again, no flooding was there

926
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,560
at that point either. 
So it was really just hills and 

927
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,160
barren landscape. 
There may have already been a 

928
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,720
little bit of a salt marsh type 
of situation there because it's 

929
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:36,920
close to the close to the coast 
on the east side there. 

930
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,840
And eventually you get to the 
coast on the West side too. 

931
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,920
So we got a couple of different 
oceans poking in on the other 

932
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,160
side there. 
So it does sound incredibly 

933
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,400
powerful, that spell the 
breaking the hammer of the 

934
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,560
waters. 
So being dubious is fair about 

935
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,760
it, but we have to remember our 
source that the world of ice 

936
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,760
would fire. 
It downplays magic and still is 

937
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,800
pretty open to this, even though
they downplay they're like, 

938
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,240
yeah, this this really could 
have happened. 

939
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:03,640
I mean, and again, we keep I 
keep coming back to this. 

940
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,680
But those who sing the song of 
Earth, it's their domain. 

941
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,120
And the deep forests and caves 
like the deep, the the deep 

942
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,040
forest, yeah, this doesn't have 
as much to do with it. 

943
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,440
But the caves, that's where 
under the ground, that's where 

944
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,440
the the volcanic activity is, 
where the tremors are, where the

945
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,000
tectonic plates would be rubbing
against each other. 

946
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,600
I mean, you got to go really 
deep for that. 

947
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,840
But if anyone has access to 
that, it's the children. 

948
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,040
Consider what Leaf told Bran. 
And I guess JoJo and Mira were 

949
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,360
listening to that. 
The caves that they live in are 

950
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,440
so vast. 
They haven't explored them all 

951
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,360
the children haven't. 
And they have lived there for, 

952
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,520
according to Leaf, a thousand 
1000 years, which is 100,000 

953
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:50,640
years, which is kind of a scale 
time that's difficult to fathom.

954
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:56,360
But if they haven't explored all
that in 100,000 years, then 

955
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,440
yeah, it kind of implies that 
those caves go real, real deep. 

956
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:06,120
And if you can, if you're a 
person with sorceress power and 

957
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,640
you can do things below the 
Earth, well, it would have an 

958
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:14,320
effect on above the earth where 
where these things are more 

959
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,840
unstable. 
These instability of below the 

960
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,160
Earth via the volcanic activity,
the magma, this and that. 

961
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,080
If you mess with that, it causes
big things to happen on the 

962
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,080
surface. 
It really just, it just fits so 

963
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:30,360
well. 
Now, again, just briefly, the 

964
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,200
the the association of forests 
and flooded forests. 

965
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,640
This is something that I'm like,
well, if they flooded the neck 

966
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,360
and that was their intent, like 
they weren't trying to shatter 

967
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,400
it like they were the the arm of
Dorn. 

968
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,080
Well, it would fit somewhat 
because of their association 

969
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,480
with swamps, right? 
Swamps are forested wetlands, 

970
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,280
like I said, which by the way, 
as an aside, it's why there's 

971
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,800
such a real world aside. 
This is why there's such a push 

972
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,040
among certain groups to save the
wetlands. 

973
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,120
Wetlands are healthy. 
You think of some of these 

974
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,520
swamps and Fens as like a source
of disease, and sometimes that's

975
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,440
true. 
But wetlands, the plants that 

976
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:16,440
exist in wetlands, are vital to 
absorbing bad things. 

977
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,120
They suck up toxins, ammonia and
other bad things. 

978
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,320
It's basically at the heart of 
all nature, the the symbiosis 

979
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,800
between humans and plants. 
They, their ex, their waste is 

980
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,880
our food and our, our waste is 
their food, that kind of thing. 

981
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,840
So. 
And wetlands are usually at the 

982
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,640
dividing point between land and 
sea or land and lake or land and

983
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:39,640
ocean. 
Yeah. 

984
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,360
So, yeah. 
Anyway, the children would want 

985
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:42,920
to protect these two. 
The children would have a 

986
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,800
natural understanding of this, 
even though it's a real world, 

987
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,360
modern understanding kind of 
thing. 

988
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,280
You know, ancients kind of had 
an understanding of some of 

989
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,200
that. 
They understood that cleaner 

990
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,760
water came from wetlands, then 
from a lot of other places. 

991
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,680
That's that's a very observable 
thing. 

992
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,440
You don't need special science 
or knowledge to do that. 

993
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,440
Like, this water is clean. 
I can tell because of how it 

994
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,360
tastes and because it doesn't 
make me sick. 

995
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,200
You know, let's all drink from 
this, you know, And then if 

996
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,080
someone comes in and destroys 
it, it's like, hey, where did 

997
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,400
our clean water go? 
That's a very observable thing. 

998
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,480
And yeah, so you can think all 
along the same lines that 

999
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,680
children have this, this 
association, this closeness with

1000
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:19,840
nature. 
They would they would understand

1001
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,160
a lot of these things too. 
Now, another reason the children

1002
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:27,560
would maybe want to cut off the 
North and only the North, 

1003
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,120
besides the fact that it was too
big of a thing to keep the First

1004
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,960
Men out of all of Westeros. 
Like that's just a too tall of 

1005
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,640
an order. 
But maybe we can keep them out 

1006
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,320
of the North. 
It worked for the end all. 

1007
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,640
I kept the end alls out of the 
North. 

1008
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,240
So maybe that was their goal. 
Maybe they weren't trying to 

1009
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:44,280
keep the First Men out the only 
the end alls because by then 

1010
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,960
enough of the First Men were 
worshipping the same gods they 

1011
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,560
weren't at anymore. 
The pack was long, was far in 

1012
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,080
the past and things were 
copacetic. 

1013
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,240
The reason the Children might 
prefer the North and prefer to 

1014
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:01,200
cut access off is because again,
their territory is the deep 

1015
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,680
forests. 
By far overwhelmingly the 

1016
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,720
biggest forest in Westeros is 
the Wolfswood. 

1017
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:11,560
It is not close. 
Obviously if we're thinking 1012

1018
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,600
even more years ago the sizing 
could be different, but I'd see 

1019
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,880
even then. 
I doubt any forest was as big as

1020
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,440
the Wolf's would. 
It's just so big. 

1021
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,520
And the north is the biggest of 
the regions too, so it's the 

1022
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:24,800
biggest forest and the biggest 
region. 

1023
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,640
I think the Wolf's would might 
even be larger than most of the 

1024
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,520
stormlands, and the stormlands 
might be the most the next most 

1025
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,840
forested because of its it's the
Rainwood. 

1026
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,760
The ancient rainwood may have 
been huge, but the ancient 

1027
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,320
rainwood may not have existed at
all in this this form or 

1028
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,360
fashion, because the ancient 
rainwood was different. 

1029
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,560
The terrain was different 
because of the broken arm. 

1030
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,960
There was the sea of Dorn didn't
even exist then. 

1031
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,440
So everything was different down
there. 

1032
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,400
It's it's hard to understand the
geology of something that's 

1033
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,640
12,000 years gone or whatever. 
So it's a pattern that repeated.

1034
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:59,440
In other words, the children 
fled to the Neck and some of 

1035
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,960
them to the Wolfswood because, 
hey, that's the best place to be

1036
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,680
if, if there's going to be First
Men everywhere. 

1037
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,400
And then the First Men did this 
to the children, and then the 

1038
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,680
and dolls did this to the First 
Men and the children. 

1039
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,320
History repeating itself as it 
tends to do. 

1040
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,480
Why so late? 
Again, there's this question of 

1041
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,000
if they couldn't cut First Men 
off, why did they even bother? 

1042
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,080
What was the point of shattering
the arm if it wasn't going to 

1043
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,120
fundamentally change the 
population of First Men? 

1044
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,400
It wasn't going to solve the 
problem. 

1045
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,640
I did allude to the fact that, 
well, maybe it helped a little 

1046
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,120
bit. 
It doesn't have to be a full 

1047
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:33,720
solution. 
There wouldn't be a full 

1048
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:38,160
solution. 
So they'd already been forced to

1049
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,520
live differently by only forests
and caves and swamps. 

1050
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,720
Now they can't live, you know, 
in the fields and meadows. 

1051
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:45,440
That's the purview of the 
humans. 

1052
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,400
Now, this might affect their 
ability, their societies greatly

1053
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,080
in there. 
They might not be able to 

1054
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,440
communicate as easily as they 
used to. 

1055
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,480
Maybe they can though because of
magic. 

1056
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,000
So 1 theory and I like it a lot 
when this comes from the World 

1057
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,720
of Ice and Fire. 
This isn't like a fan theory is 

1058
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:06,560
that the pact only happened 
because the children were a big 

1059
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,440
enough threat. 
If the First Men were like, well

1060
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,280
we're winning, why would we come
to the negotiating table if 

1061
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,240
we're just winning? 
Tyrion makes the same point to 

1062
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,120
the Lannister meeting that his 
his fought Tywin's like yeah, 

1063
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,640
you were right about that. 
But Tyrion's like they're not 

1064
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,680
going to make peace with us. 
First of all, we just killed 

1065
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,040
Eddard Stark. 
Second of all, they're winning. 

1066
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:27,840
At that point, they were the 
Starks were winning. 

1067
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:29,880
So like, why would they say, 
yeah, let's been, you know, 

1068
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,400
let's wake out a peace deal? 
No, Usually the people who are 

1069
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,480
you do that when it's a 
stalemate or when you're losing.

1070
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,480
If you're winning and winning 
handily, you don't go, hey, 

1071
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:40,560
let's make peace. 
Now. 

1072
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:43,480
That's usually not how it works.
Usually you just keep pushing, 

1073
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:44,960
like we're winning, let's win 
more. 

1074
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,280
Yeah, like that's that's how it 
goes, Right. 

1075
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,360
So what the the point being is 
like, hey, look, they show they 

1076
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,120
demonstrated to the First Men. 
Look what we can do. 

1077
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:56,000
We can blow up a whole land 
bridge. 

1078
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,480
It's the point wasn't to say, 
hey, we can. 

1079
00:54:58,480 --> 00:54:59,800
We're stopping more of you from 
migrating. 

1080
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:01,920
Maybe that's a nice side effect.
The point is to show their 

1081
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,280
power, to demonstrate their 
power to scare the First Men 

1082
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:08,800
into negotiate. 
Look, if we can do that, if we 

1083
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,560
can shatter the Armadorn, what 
else can we do? 

1084
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,320
We don't want to do it, but 
we'll do it. 

1085
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,280
We'll capture 100 of you guys, 
sacrifice you to the old gods 

1086
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,640
and we'll drop some other huge 
spell on your head. 

1087
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:22,880
You got the hammer of the 
waters. 

1088
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,760
Next is the screwdriver of the 
volcano. 

1089
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:30,360
I don't know, some other tool 
with some other natural, natural

1090
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,720
feature, right. 
So it that and that's a 

1091
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:35,280
legitimate threat. 
I think you know, you prove it. 

1092
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,680
It's not just a hey, we can 
we'll we'll cast a big spell. 

1093
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:41,120
They don't believe that. 
But if you actually cast a big 

1094
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,400
spell and say, hey, the next one
is going to hit you more 

1095
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:44,840
directly. 
All right, Well, that's 

1096
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:46,960
something that is that is a 
legitimate threat. 

1097
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,520
That might be something that 
would bring the first men to the

1098
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,680
negotiating table and say, all 
right, we're both slaughtering 

1099
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,120
each other. 
It's a stalemate. 

1100
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,400
Let's stop this. 
That's a good reason to stop a 

1101
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,000
war when you're not, when you're
not, when you're not winning and

1102
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,360
you're also not really losing. 
Well, that argues that you're 

1103
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,360
both losing, you know, from like
a human humanity perspective, 

1104
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:10,880
not humans as in humans versus 
children. 

1105
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,960
I mean, like humane perspective,
like you're both losing when 

1106
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,200
you're just killing each other. 
And it's the same line of 

1107
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,320
thinking that takes us to the 
others. 

1108
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,920
If the flooding of the hammer of
the waters didn't work, if the 

1109
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,040
threat of the hammer of the 
waters didn't work, if a second 

1110
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,800
hammer of the water still didn't
work, or if it didn't work 

1111
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,040
because the end alls came and 
the threat reemerged, well, you 

1112
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,120
got to go farther, don't you? 
The others kind of feel like 

1113
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,440
that ultimate threat. 
They're like, well, we didn't 

1114
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:41,040
want to do this because it hurts
us too, but it's our only 

1115
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:42,760
choice. 
So they create the others. 

1116
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,120
The others are capable of 
killing everything with their 

1117
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,880
intense cold that they bring, 
apparently. 

1118
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,120
So the idea is we'll hide in our
caves and while the others just 

1119
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,440
destroy everybody. 
And once the others have killed,

1120
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,520
all humanity will come back up 
and they'll be very, there'll be

1121
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,560
fewer of us. 
It hurts us a lot too, but it 

1122
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,280
hurts them more. 
It kills all of them and only 

1123
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,760
kills some of us. 
That's not a solution you want 

1124
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,440
to you want to implement unless 
you have to because, well, 

1125
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,280
you're killing a lot of your own
people to do it. 

1126
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,120
It's a natural defense mechanism
of bees. 

1127
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,920
We've seen this in nature quite 
a bit like a Hornet will come 

1128
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,760
into a bee's nest and the, the 
Hornet is just like a tank. 

1129
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,240
The bees can't do anything to 
it. 

1130
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,720
It's just like a a tank amidst a
bunch of toy soldiers, but they 

1131
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,840
have one defense mechanism. 
They can swarm the wasp and rub 

1132
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,280
their wings together really 
fast, and it creates friction, 

1133
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,840
which creates heat and it raises
the temperature. 

1134
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,000
The bees can survive a slightly 
higher temperature than the 

1135
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,320
Hornet can. 
So as soon as the Hornet dies of

1136
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:43,080
heat exhaustion or whatever the 
correct terminology is here for 

1137
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,040
what kills it. 
Some of the bees die too doing 

1138
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,440
this, but it saves the hive, 
right? 

1139
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,120
It's the same logic. 
You got this. 

1140
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,920
The human, the humans are the 
wasp in this. 

1141
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,440
And instead of extreme heat, 
we're talking about extreme 

1142
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,560
cold. 
So some of the children might 

1143
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,640
die either casting the spell or 
from the actual effects of the 

1144
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,800
spell itself that it's so cold 
that it's some of them die 

1145
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:09,040
because of it or the spell 
requires sacrifice. 

1146
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,040
Like some of them have to die to
make the spell happen. 

1147
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,720
So that's even more 
straightforward as to why they 

1148
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,080
wouldn't want to take this step 
initially. 

1149
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,240
They might be willing to suffer 
greatly after they've already 

1150
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,000
suffered greatly. 
They're like, well, let's not 

1151
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:22,800
let's try to beat them. 
We're not just going to start 

1152
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,960
off by sacrificing half of 
ourselves. 

1153
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:26,760
Let's see if we can have a 
better result than that. 

1154
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,600
Centuries go by. 
Maybe they're like, yeah, this 

1155
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:30,880
isn't working. 
We're going to we're going to 

1156
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,200
have to be desperate. 
We're going to do something a 

1157
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,440
little bigger. 
And that may be where the others

1158
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,760
came in. 
It's kind of like another 

1159
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:38,760
another explanation for that. 
It's like chemotherapy, you 

1160
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,480
know, a treatment that causes 
harm to the patient but causes 

1161
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,880
more harm to the disease. 
And the disease in this case is 

1162
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,320
humanity from the perspective of
the children. 

1163
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:48,920
Now there's a permutation of 
this. 

1164
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,440
Was it the all humans that are 
the enemy here? 

1165
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,720
Or was it just the humans that 
don't worship the old gods? 

1166
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,680
Or was it some of both ancient 
times it was just the children? 

1167
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,000
After some time passes, enough 
of the first men worship the old

1168
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,360
gods. 
They're on the same side as the 

1169
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,320
children vis A vis a humanity 
destroying heart, trees and and 

1170
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:09,960
all the other stuff. 
Well, we worship that too. 

1171
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:11,320
We don't want you. 
We're helping you. 

1172
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,200
But not all of our humans, none 
of our fellow humans are not not

1173
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,000
all on board with this. 
So yeah, we have to consider the

1174
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,320
possibility that it wasn't a 
mistake, that the Hammer of the 

1175
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,160
waters was. 
Maybe they did want to fully 

1176
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,560
separate the North, but maybe 
they just wanted a swamp. 

1177
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,240
Maybe that's actually what they 
wanted because the swamp gives 

1178
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:32,320
them power. 
The swamp might create sorceress

1179
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,840
energy for them, especially if 
there's already magic in that 

1180
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:37,440
place. 
Why? 

1181
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,640
Again, why did they cast the 
spell from Moat Kalin from that 

1182
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,120
place that became Moat Kalin in 
the 1st place? 

1183
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,520
Well, our best guess is because 
there's something magical about 

1184
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,320
that spot. 
Maybe he's flooding it, made it 

1185
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,640
more magical, made the energy 
more powerful, because it added 

1186
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,440
life, because it added more 
nature to it. 

1187
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,800
I don't know. 
I mean, if it was a barren land 

1188
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,000
and they added a bunch of swamp 
creatures and you know. 

1189
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,360
Bacteria. 
This the amount of life in the 

1190
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,040
area after the flooding of the 
neck increased a lot. 

1191
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,840
Obviously in in the arm of 
Dorne, it decreased because the 

1192
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,160
the entire landscape sunk under 
the water. 

1193
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:15,560
Yeah. 
So the only thing living on 

1194
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:17,960
there now are sea creatures. 
That's an entirely different 

1195
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,520
thing, but they create. 
This is creating a biosphere 

1196
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,640
that didn't exist at all. 
Not a biosphere, but a Biome 

1197
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,680
that didn't exist at all. 
And it's one that contains a lot

1198
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,720
more life than it did. 
So if we're talking, you know, 

1199
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,040
the children are creators of 
nature, then there is kind of an

1200
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:37,200
argument there for that. 
It's both a barrier to humanity 

1201
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,880
and a way to add more life to 
the region. 

1202
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:45,400
Now, a question I have is, OK, 
so this is a recurring question 

1203
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,760
or a question that comes up a 
few times about the children 

1204
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,320
casting the spell from Moe Kalin
from the Children's Tower. 

1205
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:54,640
It's called the Children's 
tower. 

1206
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,760
So we're going to get back to 
that briefly, but I want to set 

1207
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,200
that question. 
Plant that seed. 

1208
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:02,440
As to why? 
Why would the children cast a 

1209
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,120
spell from within a castle at 
all? 

1210
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,840
And if it's because it gives 
them a benefit, well, what 

1211
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:10,320
benefit is that? 
Why? 

1212
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,880
What does the castle do? 
To enhance the magic? 

1213
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,640
Or maybe it wasn't the children 
at all. 

1214
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,440
Maybe it was First Men, old 
gods, worshippers that had 

1215
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:19,960
nothing. 
The children had very little or 

1216
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:21,880
nothing to do with it. 
It was all mankind. 

1217
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,840
That's possible too. 
That would make sense because we

1218
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,480
don't have, we wouldn't have a 
question about why do it in a 

1219
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,280
castle. 
If it's humans, that makes 

1220
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:31,760
sense. 
Humans do things in castles. 

1221
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,600
But the children, we have like 
no examples of them ever doing 

1222
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,200
anything in a castle that I can 
think of. 

1223
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,000
Usually I have a pretty 
comprehensive knowledge of this 

1224
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,280
stuff, right? 
Maybe tell me if I'm wrong, but 

1225
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:46,800
I can't. 
I don't have an example like 

1226
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,800
that. 
So that in general, when the 

1227
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:55,560
magic is sourced from the Old 
Gods, it is sometimes tricky to 

1228
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,840
tell whether it's children or 
early first men or or both. 

1229
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:02,400
And that gets us to the 
Kranigman, right? 

1230
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,640
The Kranigman didn't exist 
before the neck was flooded. 

1231
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:11,040
And the Kranigmen, according to 
the Kranigmen, are the closest 

1232
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:15,000
to the children. 
They're the most related in that

1233
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:16,480
sense. 
They're the closest to nature 

1234
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,640
partly because of that. 
And there might actually be like

1235
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,000
a biological connection. 
But they're definitely those who

1236
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,880
live closest to Earth, right. 
The children of those who sing 

1237
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,680
the song of Earth where the 
Kranigman live in the swamps. 

1238
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,880
Like they live the closest to 
nature. 

1239
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,200
And they're remember their their
vow that they gave to Bran or 

1240
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,160
water to Earth, Earth to water, 
you know, combining those 

1241
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:37,800
things. 
Well, swamp earth to water, 

1242
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:38,480
water to earth. 
Yeah. 

1243
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:43,440
You're living amidst both and 
maybe that was a long game of 

1244
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,040
the children. 
Where else is there a big swamp 

1245
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,840
in all of Westeros? 
There's some, but there's no 

1246
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:50,400
huge 1. 
You know, there's some a little 

1247
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,840
bit over in the in the crack 
claw point area. 

1248
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,240
I believe there's some bogs and 
Fens there, certainly, but 

1249
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,000
there's lots of a lot of trees 
and, and solid ground. 

1250
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,200
So the the neck is, I believe, 
by far the largest swamp in all 

1251
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:04,840
of Westeros. 
And it might have been created 

1252
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,960
rather than something that 
occurred completely naturally. 

1253
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,640
The long game I'm referring to 
here is the Kranigman exist 

1254
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,840
because of the flooding, and the
Kranigman are the closest to the

1255
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,320
children. 
Maybe that's what they were 

1256
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,520
aiming for. 
Like hey, if we build a huge 

1257
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:24,840
swamp, the people that live here
will have a better connection to

1258
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,360
us. 
They created a human subspecies,

1259
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,680
a human subculture that they can
relate to more than any of the 

1260
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:36,280
other humanity human cultures. 
It's a little out there is an 

1261
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,360
idea, but it's it's got a little
something to it. 

1262
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:40,840
It's got to lose a little leg to
that. 

1263
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:45,320
I think a little momentum there.
It it's it's a pretty grand idea

1264
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:49,480
that it's pretty big thinking 
you know a lot very long term 

1265
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:50,720
planning. 
But the children live hundreds 

1266
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:52,640
of years. 
This is this is falls in line 

1267
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,800
with the way they strategize. 
You don't have our species 

1268
01:03:55,800 --> 01:04:00,120
doesn't generally enact plans 
that take hundreds of years to 

1269
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,280
come through because we won't 
see the end of that. 

1270
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,320
But even that isn't without 
without precedent. 

1271
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,840
A lot of modern cathedrals took 
over 100 years to build. 

1272
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:11,920
I mean modern, you know, 
cathedrals, just a lot of 

1273
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:13,800
cathedrals took 100 years or 
more to build. 

1274
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,280
So, yeah, the people that 
started that cathedral did not 

1275
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:19,200
see it finished. 
Kind of an act of faith, right? 

1276
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:23,000
Or an act of humanity to to you 
care about your descendants, 

1277
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,920
whether they're your personal 
descendants or just descendants 

1278
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,480
of your community. 
Yeah, high minded, different 

1279
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:29,880
from high magic, high minded, 
right. 

1280
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,840
And some of the children would 
would have that level of wisdom.

1281
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,400
Maybe they are more of a 
connected culture, more of a 

1282
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,680
network, more of a what happens 
to me happens to all of us kind 

1283
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,800
of, you know, like they're more 
like that than than humans are. 

1284
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,280
You know, there's also a slim 
possibility that the neck was 

1285
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:50,720
already swampy and they just 
increased the swampiness of it. 

1286
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,280
But that seems less likely. 
It's not as interesting. 

1287
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:55,800
I think George is going to pick 
the more interesting version 

1288
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,280
when he has options like that. 
Now, here's another. 

1289
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,160
Here's a detail. 
It'll bring us back to some more

1290
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,560
solid ground, which is ironic 
because I'm talking about a 

1291
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:05,760
swamp. 
But anyway, here we go quote. 

1292
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,960
It was the North and the North 
alone that was able to keep the 

1293
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:16,280
Andols at Bay, thanks to the 
impenetrable swamps of the Neck 

1294
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:19,520
and the ancient keep of Moat 
Kalin. 

1295
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,800
The number of Andol armies that 
were destroyed in the Neck 

1296
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:29,120
cannot be easily reckoned, and 
so the Kings of Winter preserved

1297
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,840
their independent rule for many 
centuries to come. 

1298
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,400
We've also seen the children and
their people's minds. 

1299
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,040
We know that can happen with 
glass candles and the Valyrians 

1300
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:44,240
and maybe some other examples, 
but we've seen it with brands. 

1301
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:48,880
Comadrine right there was 
definitely the three eyed Crow 

1302
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:50,200
was in there, probably blood 
Raven. 

1303
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:52,600
It doesn't matter who it was 
for, for our purposes, it was 

1304
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,200
something, it was a being, it 
was a consciousness, a 

1305
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,920
something, an entity that wasn't
in Bran's mind. 

1306
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,360
I mean wasn't a figment of his 
imagination is what I mean to 

1307
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,840
say. 
So if they can get into people's

1308
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:11,360
heads that way, then maybe there
is something to them affecting 

1309
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,560
human leaders. 
Maybe the Kings of Winter were 

1310
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:17,480
influenced and their dreams were
influenced by high magic, by 

1311
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,040
green seers. 
You get the humans, get the 

1312
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,600
humans that are somewhat on your
side to enact your will, enact 

1313
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,560
something that you think is 
necessary to for your survival 

1314
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,920
right now. 
During the end all invasion, the

1315
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,320
first men usually lost, right? 
The end alls were too strong, 

1316
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,000
kind of like how the the 
children were too weren't able 

1317
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,160
to handle the first men 
militaristically. 

1318
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,160
Like they have they're bigger, 
they're stronger, they have 

1319
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:42,040
bigger weapons. 
They have, even though they 

1320
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:45,520
didn't have steel. 
Well the children didn't even 

1321
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,120
have any form of metal. 
Obsidian versus steel is a 

1322
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:50,720
problem. 
So when the end alls come along 

1323
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,320
and they actually have actual 
steel and bigger horses and are 

1324
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:58,080
even more warlike and they never
turn to the old gods, well 

1325
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,320
that's obviously a bigger 
problem. 

1326
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:05,760
So for centuries if not longer, 
MO Kalin did its thing holding 

1327
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,560
back end alls. 
Whether it also held back 

1328
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,640
earlier first men cultures is up
for debate or up for question, 

1329
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:18,200
but we should assume that the 
and dolls never faced the neck 

1330
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,400
in an unflooded state. 
By the time the and dolls came 

1331
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:23,480
along, the the flooding had 
already happened. 

1332
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,040
So they never got they never got
the easier, quote UN quote 

1333
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,360
easier version of it. 
It was never easy, but it became

1334
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,240
really hard after so hard that 
they never even succeeded. 

1335
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,680
Right. 
And this gets back to my bubble 

1336
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:36,400
thing. 
The idea of a bubble, right, 

1337
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:39,760
which we're coming to next that 
they were trying to create a 

1338
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:44,760
only like a kind of cut off 
state from everyone else. 

1339
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,160
If you have the north isn't 
doesn't have a lot of places to 

1340
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,800
land, you know, with with ships.
So more than that in a SEC. 

1341
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:55,080
But let me get back to the the 
armies dying in the in the 

1342
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:56,840
swamp, because that's 
interesting too. 

1343
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,360
If there's power in death, if 
the death may pay for life, if 

1344
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:05,440
bodies and blood, there's power 
in that sorceress energy, for 

1345
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,400
lack of a better word. 
Well, this is kind of why I 

1346
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,840
explained the underlying 
scientific principles behind a 

1347
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:16,359
bog. 
And I pointed out that the 

1348
01:08:16,399 --> 01:08:19,800
decomposition is very slow in 
bogs. 

1349
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:24,000
Bodies can be very well 
preserved in bogs. 

1350
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:28,800
There is a body that scientists 
have in this world right now, in

1351
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,600
our world right now, that dates 
to 8000. 

1352
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:38,479
BCA preserved body 8. 
That's more than 10,000 years 

1353
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:41,960
old, y'all, and it's mostly 
preserved, or at least preserved

1354
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:43,720
substantially. 
It's called the Kelberg. 

1355
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:45,279
Man. 
I probably said that wrong. 

1356
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,520
It's Danish. 
That's where it was found. 

1357
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:52,600
Was found in Denmark. 
Most of the bog bodies is what 

1358
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,880
they're called. 
Are found in Denmark, Germany, 

1359
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:58,600
the Netherlands, also UK, 
Ireland and Scotland. 

1360
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:01,840
Also Florida. 
Yeah, Florida. 

1361
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,319
So you get all these northern 
European places and also 

1362
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:07,720
Florida. 
Yeah, well, bogs happen where 

1363
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:08,840
they happen. 
You know, obviously they've 

1364
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:12,120
warm. 
Why the cold bog thing isn't a 

1365
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,399
thing in Florida, but they do 
have them there. 

1366
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:18,080
So the Florida one is kind of 
fascinating because it's 

1367
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,439
explicitly not cold. 
It's it's wind over is what it's

1368
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:25,120
called the location. 
But there's even even older one,

1369
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:28,800
even older bog bodies found in a
place called warm Mineral 

1370
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:31,200
Springs, Florida. 
And it's called there you go 

1371
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,399
warm and mineral springs that 
tells you it's not cold. 

1372
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:35,640
The actual water coming up from 
the ground is warm. 

1373
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:39,040
That's abnormal. 
It's called warm mineral Springs

1374
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:42,359
because it's the only warm 
sinkhole in the entire state of 

1375
01:09:42,359 --> 01:09:44,200
Florida, which has a lot of 
sinkholes. 

1376
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:46,359
My mother goes swimming in 
sinkholes all the time. 

1377
01:09:46,359 --> 01:09:47,840
Well, not all the time, but 
frequently. 

1378
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:52,080
So it's kind of funny that the 
bog bodies discovered in the 

1379
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:55,120
only warm sinkhole when normally
bodies, bogs are associated with

1380
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:57,840
cold. 
But also it's not just burials, 

1381
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,360
it's not just bodies, it's 
artifacts from Paleo Indians. 

1382
01:10:01,480 --> 01:10:05,040
What's a Paleo Indian? 
Paleo Indian is a concept we 

1383
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:06,640
discussed earlier without using 
the term. 

1384
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,520
It's those first people that 
migrated into North America from

1385
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:14,240
over the Bering Sea, from 
eastern side. 

1386
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:17,760
Well, what's now Siberia, I 
suppose so. 

1387
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:21,400
I don't know if the others will 
get going to get to Moat Kalin, 

1388
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,000
but if they do, there's a lot of
bodies in there. 

1389
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:25,400
Probably. 
George could easily write it 

1390
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,240
that way, that a bunch of and 
all bodies can be pulled out of 

1391
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,400
the swamps by the others. 
And that would be pretty cool in

1392
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:32,240
a creepy way. 
So this kind of, this is the 

1393
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:36,280
kind of real world science that 
George could use to greater 

1394
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:37,560
impact. 
Like he could do his thing where

1395
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:38,960
he turns it up to 11 just. 
OK. 

1396
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,480
Yeah. 
So every once in a while, a body

1397
01:10:40,480 --> 01:10:42,680
is preserved in a bog. 
Well, let's just say a lot of 

1398
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,320
bodies were preserved in this 
particular bog because that's 

1399
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:49,240
fun. 
Yeah, we could very much use 

1400
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,400
your support on Patreon these 
days. 

1401
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:54,360
The the fandom is doing pretty 
well, but it's not at its peak, 

1402
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,040
you know what I'm saying? 
We've got some exciting things 

1403
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:59,040
coming next year. 
We're not going to slow down. 

1404
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,600
Our show is going to keep going.
But we've also got some TV shows

1405
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,680
coming next year, which should, 
you know, boost engagement. 

1406
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:05,520
We'll see. 
There'll be a lot more 

1407
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:07,400
discussions online. 
The fandom should have a nice 

1408
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:09,880
kick in the butt twice next 
year, which is nice. 

1409
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,840
But we need support all the 
time, right? 

1410
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:14,720
We do this for a living. 
So we can't just have this 

1411
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:16,400
seasonal thing. 
We got to, you know, we got to 

1412
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:17,920
have our bottom line taken care 
of. 

1413
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,120
So if you're able to, we would 
very much appreciate the 

1414
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:22,360
support. 
And of course, just we also very

1415
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:23,440
much appreciate the word of 
mouth. 

1416
01:11:23,440 --> 01:11:26,080
There's nothing like that in in 
this world. 

1417
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,400
That's the best way to spread 
the word about any show you care

1418
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:32,680
about. 
If you listen to any podcast or 

1419
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,880
radio program or whatever, have 
you author that you support, any

1420
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:37,880
creator that you support, if you
engage with them a lot, 

1421
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,920
especially this time of year, if
you're American, especially when

1422
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:42,240
we're thinking about Christmas 
and all that. 

1423
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,240
One, it's not just Americans to 
celebrate Christmas, obviously, 

1424
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:47,000
but it is this time of year 
where we think about giving and 

1425
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,040
being thankful. 
It is, it is an American 

1426
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:50,520
holiday, Thanksgiving that's 
coming up soon. 

1427
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:54,400
So that's what I always try to 
do, any podcast or YouTube that 

1428
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:57,880
I engage with a lot, that's a 
good reason for me to hit them 

1429
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,320
up with a little support. 
And if you feel the same way, 

1430
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:03,720
then maybe we deserve that. 
If not, consider a different 

1431
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,120
supporter, a different creator 
that you do engage with a lot 

1432
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:08,640
and maybe hook them up, give 
them a little help. 

1433
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:12,120
Another way you can help out is 
by going to our website and 

1434
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:14,200
using our links. 
We have different shopping links

1435
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,720
there, all of which do not cost 
you additional. 

1436
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,720
For example, use our Amazon 
links. 

1437
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:22,680
Doesn't cost you any additional 
money, but anything you buy, we 

1438
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:25,160
get a little cut of. 
And Amazon's a pretty good place

1439
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,440
to shop for during the holidays 
because of how quickly they 

1440
01:12:27,440 --> 01:12:31,800
deliver things and how they're 
able to manage to keep so many 

1441
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:33,920
things in stock at a time when 
it's really hard to do that. 

1442
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,080
That's one advantage of being so
gigantic, I suppose. 

1443
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:41,160
So yeah, go to 
historyofwesteros.com and Peru's

1444
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:43,280
what we have going on there 
shopping. 

1445
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:46,240
We've got a lot of cool fantasy 
items and books and different 

1446
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:48,120
things that are able to be found
there. 

1447
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:50,240
Plus our website is just fun. 
It's cool we got to get 

1448
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,080
different things to find there. 
Besides that you can see our see

1449
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:55,320
all the patron names and fun 
things like that. 

1450
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,800
A lot of y'all have who signed 
up to be a member of gotten a 

1451
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:02,200
cool nickname and title. 
So anyway, yeah, hopefully that 

1452
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:06,880
is encouraging and we'll we'll 
keep it going folks. 

1453
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:09,440
Well, we're not, we're not going
anywhere, but we would love to 

1454
01:13:09,440 --> 01:13:13,080
have your support. 
Darwonka sends a super chat and 

1455
01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:14,960
says thank you for all you do. 
Well, we appreciate that 

1456
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:16,680
Darwonka. 
And like I said, we'll keep it 

1457
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:17,880
coming. 
Christina Kay. 

1458
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,200
Hey, how's it going? 
Christina says maybe the stumps 

1459
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,720
are under the water and that's 
why the Krannick men get green 

1460
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:28,160
dreams seemingly more often than
the That's a good idea because 

1461
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,000
it does seem weird that there's 
no wherewoods there at all. 

1462
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:34,560
So the a very good explanation 
could be that they were chopped 

1463
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,560
down and that might be that's 
fitting. 

1464
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,560
They're like, well, we this is 
the this is the line in the sand

1465
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:41,960
slash the swamp that we're 
drawing. 

1466
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,160
The hard trees north of here do 
not get chopped down. 

1467
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:46,320
We're we can't save the ones 
South of here. 

1468
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:48,720
So this is we're going to, we're
going to focus on what we can 

1469
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:50,760
save. 
Christina also said Stonehenge 

1470
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,120
and Gobekli Tepe are are old 
like that. 

1471
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,040
Yeah, that's true. 
Gobekli Tepe is something like 

1472
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:59,960
maybe 13,000 years old. 
It might only be, might only be 

1473
01:13:59,960 --> 01:14:02,440
10,000 years old, but they're, I
mean, we're still learning about

1474
01:14:02,440 --> 01:14:02,880
it. 
Is it? 

1475
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:05,680
It's not exactly something that 
we've known about for a long 

1476
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,640
time in terms of historical 
timelines. 

1477
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,920
Christina says humans do be 
making big things from rock if 

1478
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,720
they care enough. 
Can't argue with that. 

1479
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,480
Damn. 
True, Liat says. 

1480
01:14:16,480 --> 01:14:18,200
What was the relationship 
between the children and the 

1481
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:20,040
Dragons? 
Oh, that's a tough one. 

1482
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,920
Yeah. 
Because we are told that Dragons

1483
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:28,840
did live in Westeros or there's 
evidence for them bones before 

1484
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,840
before the Valyrians even. 
It's a really good question. 

1485
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:37,840
I assume these Dragons that were
in Westeros were wild Dragons. 

1486
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,960
Maybe they escaped from a 
nursery or a hatchery. 

1487
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,240
Or maybe they are truly 
prehistoric Dragons that were 

1488
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:46,720
never part of any lineage of 
being tamed. 

1489
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,920
Or maybe they were engineered in
the 1st place. 

1490
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:53,920
But if who cares if they were 
engineered 10,000 years prior, 

1491
01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:55,720
then there's no reason why they 
couldn't have spread all over 

1492
01:14:55,720 --> 01:15:00,040
the globe. 
They fly, you know, So it's 

1493
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,280
interesting. 
It's very interesting to 

1494
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,960
consider what because the 
children, their relationship 

1495
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:09,080
with regular animals is a little
easier to fathom. 

1496
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:11,920
You know, they they're close to 
nature, but the Dragons might be

1497
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,280
supernatural creatures 
themselves. 

1498
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:17,600
In fact, we we're pretty sure 
they are, which, yeah, can they 

1499
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:20,880
have a relationship in the same 
way for with an unnatural 

1500
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:22,880
species? 
I don't know. 

1501
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:26,000
I don't, I'm not sure they can. 
I don't know if we can go so far

1502
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:29,440
as them skin changing into 
Dragons because we definitely 

1503
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:33,680
have tales of them skin changing
into snow, bears, direwolves, 

1504
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:36,760
eagles and all these other sort 
of mundane animals. 

1505
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:41,080
There's no stories of Dragons 
being skin change into which 

1506
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:43,960
just could be something George 
doesn't want to get into because

1507
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:47,480
it's a plot point that's coming.
Bran could maybe control a 

1508
01:15:47,480 --> 01:15:50,000
dragon and he doesn't. 
George would want that to be 

1509
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:52,440
maybe more of a surprise. 
Wouldn't be a huge surprise to 

1510
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:54,960
us because we've been talking 
about it for a long time. 

1511
01:15:55,440 --> 01:15:57,480
But it. 
But if he shows that it's 

1512
01:15:57,480 --> 01:16:00,040
possible, then it would we we'd 
be all over that. 

1513
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:02,480
We're like, oh, look, skin 
changers can control Dragons. 

1514
01:16:02,480 --> 01:16:03,600
Well, that's clearly going to 
happen. 

1515
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:08,040
Yeah, a guilty undertaker has a 
great theory here. 

1516
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:10,760
They maybe those were Dragons. 
Maybe they were just prehistoric

1517
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:14,040
fossils, because that's what 
humans in the real world 

1518
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:16,040
thought. 
When they found dinosaur bones, 

1519
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:18,680
they were like Dragons. 
When they found giant bones, 

1520
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:20,840
they're like giants. 
These weren't giants, they were 

1521
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:23,880
just, they're just big bones. 
Sometimes it's like elephants or

1522
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:26,040
something like that. 
You know, like the elephants. 

1523
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:29,560
Elephants skulls are where we 
get the legends of Cyclops 

1524
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:33,360
because the elephant the IT 
looks like one eye the way their

1525
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:37,400
skulls are when there's no skin.
Tony sled 6796IN reference to 

1526
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:40,760
necessity being the mother of 
invention in war disagrees isn't

1527
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:43,400
healthcare suffers the triage 
effects of scarcity are brutal. 

1528
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:44,920
The soldiers don't get treated 
to heal. 

1529
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,400
They get hacked up for the 
moment depending on their value 

1530
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,920
and social status. 
But innovation does come in all 

1531
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:51,120
environments and war associates 
some. 

1532
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:53,080
Yeah, I don't disagree with that
and I wasn't trying to make a 

1533
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:56,840
point otherwise during war. 
Yeah, it's, I'm talking about 

1534
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:00,480
after once you once, once you're
able to apply what they learned 

1535
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:04,040
during those awful times at a 
time that's not so nearly as 

1536
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,480
stressful when it's normal. 
Like, yeah, we learned a little 

1537
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:10,640
bit more about triage and 
stopping the flow of blood from,

1538
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:13,120
you know, battlefield 
amputations because we had to do

1539
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,600
it so much during that. 
Yeah, it's still awful because, 

1540
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:16,960
like you said, the resources are
scarce. 

1541
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,040
But after the war is over and 
some of that knowledge carries 

1542
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:21,520
over, I think. 
I think we agree on that much. 

1543
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,320
Braggle Fraggler, a great name, 
says jets, rockets and computers

1544
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,720
were all wartime inventions that
went on to define the 20th 

1545
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:28,560
century. 
Yeah. 

1546
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:30,000
Good point. 
Yeah. 

1547
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,600
Especially at rockets. 
Jets like for Wernher von Braun.

1548
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,200
Yeah, that was definitely a 
World War 2 impetus, right. 

1549
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:38,800
The Nazis were like, yeah, let's
build rockets that go farther. 

1550
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:39,520
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1551
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,560
True, True, true. 
Tony SLED 6796 also says it 

1552
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:45,760
could be an earthquake, a 
perfectly timed natural currents

1553
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:47,880
like the tsunamis that protected
Japan from the Mongols. 

1554
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:49,760
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 

1555
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,880
We don't need to delve into that
possibility. 

1556
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:56,720
We just need to agree that it's 
true as a possibility because 

1557
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:59,440
it's if it's a natural 
explanation, we don't really 

1558
01:17:59,440 --> 01:18:01,520
have much more to say. 
I was like, yeah, well, it was 

1559
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:03,240
an earthquake. 
Done. 

1560
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:06,480
That's the explanation. 
However, even a natural 

1561
01:18:06,480 --> 01:18:09,520
occurrence can have a 
supernatural impetus, right? 

1562
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:12,600
For example, I made the point 
earlier, like, what if they just

1563
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,160
moved the land a little bit and 
the flood happened because of 

1564
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:17,720
just a little tweak? 
What if just a little bit more 

1565
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:20,240
heat under a volcano causes the 
whole thing to go off a little 

1566
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:22,400
more pressure? 
Most of that pressure was 

1567
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:24,720
natural, but then they just, you
know, turned the dial a little 

1568
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:26,000
bit with some supernatural 
energy. 

1569
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:28,760
You don't necessarily need the 
whole thing to be supernatural. 

1570
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:30,600
That's kind of what I was 
getting at earlier with the 

1571
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:33,160
whole. 
George has does such a good job 

1572
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:37,920
of allowing real logic, real 
rational thinking and science to

1573
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:40,000
fit with magic in ways like 
this. 

1574
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,080
It's like, yeah, what if the 
magic just gave the the science 

1575
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:47,320
a push, right? 
What if the what if the flooding

1576
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,560
was already close to happening? 
What if the neck was going to 

1577
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:54,200
flood 1000 years from when it 
did flood and the children just 

1578
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,720
gave it a little push? 
It was already going to happen 

1579
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:58,560
but they made it happen sooner 
right? 

1580
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,720
These are all these are all 
reasonable possibilities Clan 

1581
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:03,480
Bourbon says. 
I would suggest the ability to 

1582
01:19:03,480 --> 01:19:06,320
warg a dragon already exists and
is a component of the Targaryen 

1583
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,200
and dragon symbiosis. 
It's possible like a milder 

1584
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:12,120
version of that cause Georgia 
said it's not the same, but he 

1585
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:14,240
also didn't say it's completely 
different. 

1586
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:17,480
He kind of alluded to there's a 
maybe a vague similarity there. 

1587
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:21,080
So yeah, a milder form of that 
connection, something that's a 

1588
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:24,720
little bit unique. 
The dragon being able to maybe 

1589
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:27,480
sense a little bit what's going 
on with the owner or the rider 

1590
01:19:27,480 --> 01:19:30,600
and maybe vice versa. 
Definitely not as intense as a 

1591
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,160
skin changing thing where they 
can see through each other's 

1592
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:34,840
eyes. 
But maybe such magic did exist 

1593
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:38,480
long ago or and maybe it's 
waiting to be rediscovered. 

1594
01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:39,960
Maybe you just take someone 
powerful enough. 

1595
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:47,560
Let's go to the northern bubble.
I have a fun theory on why they 

1596
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:49,680
might have called down the 
hammer even knowing it wouldn't 

1597
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:53,880
stop the first men because, and 
there's two variations here. 1 

1598
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:58,360
is children working with humans 
and one is without or humans 

1599
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:00,120
working without children. 
All these the different 4 

1600
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:01,960
possibilities that we started 
that poll with. 

1601
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:06,840
So let's say the children or 
whoever did the first hammer and

1602
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:08,680
they learned from that. 
They're like, OK, well that did 

1603
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:09,880
a certain thing. 
It worked. 

1604
01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:13,720
It worked and it didn't. 
Let's do it again, but with a 

1605
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,960
different goal in mind. 
Yeah, we can't stop humanity, 

1606
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,480
but we can slow them down. 
Maybe we can carve out our own 

1607
01:20:19,480 --> 01:20:21,000
Kingdom that they don't care 
about. 

1608
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:22,800
Maybe we can make them leave us 
alone. 

1609
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:25,240
We can't stop them. 
We can't beat them at war. 

1610
01:20:25,440 --> 01:20:29,400
But maybe we can reach some sort
of equilibrium. 

1611
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,920
Better to accomplish that by 
making it more difficult for 

1612
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:35,920
them. 
Like, yeah, we don't want them 

1613
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:40,640
to move, nor if they move N OK, 
but let's not make it so worth 

1614
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:43,040
their while. 
Let's make this forest gigantic.

1615
01:20:43,040 --> 01:20:46,320
Let's have direwolves. 
Let's have real cold. 

1616
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:50,440
Let's have a swamp on the way. 
Let's have it just be 

1617
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,840
unappealing to humanity. 
You know? 

1618
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:57,160
It it that? 
If so, it didn't really work 

1619
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:59,480
that well. 
But the children didn't have a 

1620
01:20:59,480 --> 01:21:02,200
lot of options, did they? 
Maybe they yeah, again. 

1621
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:04,320
Maybe they thought they were 
creating a subcontinent for 

1622
01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:06,720
themselves. 
Maybe they again North Steros, 

1623
01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:12,200
you got the the wall block in 
the north part and the Mokalin 

1624
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:16,520
and this new swamp slash 
waterway on the South. 

1625
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,640
It's a pretty contained region, 
right? 

1626
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:23,280
It would be not a complete 
bubble, but I call it a bubble 

1627
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:25,880
because it would have magical 
things on both ends, keeping 

1628
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:29,080
people out. 
Even if it's not like airtight 

1629
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:32,040
people would still come and go, 
but it would be the progress 

1630
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:36,240
would be greatly slowed. 
It would, you know, there's not 

1631
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:38,840
a lot of people sailing there 
and things like that. 

1632
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,200
They might be able to coexist 
with the few people that do live

1633
01:21:42,200 --> 01:21:44,920
there. 
So it's, it's like, it's like 

1634
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:46,520
they lower their expectations at
first. 

1635
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:48,760
They're like, let's beat humans 
and they're like later, well, we

1636
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,720
can't do that. 
So let's, let's just try to live

1637
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:53,880
later. 
They're like, OK, we can't even 

1638
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:57,440
live away from humans. 
Let's try to live with fewer 

1639
01:21:57,440 --> 01:21:59,560
humans. 
You know, their goal, The bar 

1640
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:03,520
got lower and lower as their 
options shrank. 

1641
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:06,200
It might have had better results
for them, right. 

1642
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:08,720
If there's no, like, remember, 
there's no White Harbor back 

1643
01:22:08,720 --> 01:22:09,880
then. 
There might not have even been a

1644
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:11,840
brand in the ship right Yet. 
So they just. 

1645
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:15,800
It might have really seemed 
doable because of how the North 

1646
01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:20,440
isn't that well set up for ships
coming and going, you know, and 

1647
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:21,040
they might have. 
Yeah. 

1648
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:24,120
Just make it more hospitable, 
make it colder, make it Wilder. 

1649
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:26,720
A giant swamp isn't desirable, 
right. 

1650
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:29,040
I mean, that who wants to live 
there? 

1651
01:22:29,040 --> 01:22:33,400
Oh well, the Kradigman do, but 
even that was by necessity 

1652
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:37,640
probably. 
So the bubble is only it isn't 

1653
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:40,520
keep out humans, it's keep out 
people who don't worship the old

1654
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:41,920
gods. 
That's the bubble. 

1655
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:44,040
It's in the bubble for 
worshippers of the old gods 

1656
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:48,480
containing that which is dying 
out but still has some power, 

1657
01:22:48,480 --> 01:22:49,880
enough power to keep itself 
alive. 

1658
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:53,200
So it could have worked, but it 
doesn't appear to have. 

1659
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:56,600
Maybe it's like a a micro 
version of Skaggos. 

1660
01:22:56,600 --> 01:22:59,880
Skaggos is still kind of a land 
before time. 

1661
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:01,320
It's like a time capsule of 
sorts. 

1662
01:23:01,320 --> 01:23:03,040
North of the wall sort of is 
too. 

1663
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:05,880
But Skagos is kind of different 
that way because it is actually 

1664
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:07,120
South of the wall. 
It is part of the north. 

1665
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:11,160
So it isn't, it isn't directly a
part of these older kingdoms, 

1666
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,800
these Wilder places. 
It is part of the north, which 

1667
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:17,680
is itself a bit Wilder than the 
rest of the kingdoms, especially

1668
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:19,960
when you consider the old gods. 
So maybe that's what they were 

1669
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:21,160
going for. 
They're going for like a a 

1670
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,600
Skagos type separation by 
blowing up the neck. 

1671
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,640
But as we said before, maybe 
there's a lot of the children 

1672
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:30,640
weren't on board. 
Maybe that's why the spell 

1673
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,200
didn't work, because there 
weren't enough of them willing 

1674
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:35,080
to participate. 
You need like a bunch of 

1675
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:38,200
children, a bunch of green sears
with a bunch of sacrifices and 

1676
01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:41,560
they just didn't have enough. 
They didn't have the juice for 

1677
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:43,680
it. 
And that's, and that's because a

1678
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,240
lot of the children disagreed 
with implementing it or they 

1679
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:47,840
just didn't think it would work.
And they're like, why? 

1680
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:50,280
Why should we put all this 
effort and energy and sacrifice 

1681
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:51,400
into something that's not going 
to work? 

1682
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:55,320
Children's Tower, The room where
it happened. 

1683
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:57,680
Yes, that is a Hamilton 
reference. 

1684
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:02,520
Let's get a description quote. 
To Westeros, the musical 

1685
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:04,920
reference. 
Yes, I prefer that. 

1686
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:09,840
The tall, slender children's 
tower, where legend said the 

1687
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:14,040
Children of the Forest had once 
called upon their nameless gods 

1688
01:24:14,040 --> 01:24:18,520
to send the Hammer of the 
Waters, had lost half its crown.

1689
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:23,200
It looked as if some great beast
had taken a bite out of the 

1690
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:27,560
crenellations along the tower 
top and spit the rubble across 

1691
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:30,240
the bog. 
In addition to the magic and 

1692
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:34,480
mystery and all that, George 
wants to throw some some imagery

1693
01:24:34,480 --> 01:24:37,080
at us here. 
There's this great beast taking 

1694
01:24:37,080 --> 01:24:39,720
a bite out of the crenellations 
along the tower top and spit the

1695
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:43,280
rubble across the bog. 
What could have caused that? 

1696
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:47,320
I mean, that's not just wear and
tear, that's not just the, the 

1697
01:24:47,480 --> 01:24:51,280
top of the tower fell down 
'cause it's strewn really far. 

1698
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:54,040
It didn't just fall. 
It's not like right there below 

1699
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:57,760
it says strewn across, across 
the bog. 

1700
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:02,760
What did that? 
A catapult, a lightning sorcery.

1701
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:05,680
I mean, in terms of this 
episode, that's more like what 

1702
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:08,320
we should be considering. 
I think we talked about the 

1703
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,880
basalt blocks. 
Basalt is the most common 

1704
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:15,640
volcanic rock on Earth by a wide
margin. 90% of all volcanic rock

1705
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:18,840
on Earth is basalt, probably the
same on planet. 

1706
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:20,400
So that all operate under that 
assumption. 

1707
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:22,720
For now, it's just hardened 
lava. 

1708
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:27,920
If there's power in Obsidian 
frozen fire, why not some power 

1709
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:30,080
in basalt? 
Not as much maybe, but hey, 

1710
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:34,200
Obsidian frozen fire, It's it's,
it's a product of volcanoes, 

1711
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,560
it's a product of volcanic 
gardening and all that. 

1712
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:40,760
It's the same source. 
So if they can, if Valyrians and

1713
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:45,040
fire magicians can draw power 
out of Obsidian, maybe they can 

1714
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:48,000
draw it out of basalt. 
Maybe that's why the blocks are 

1715
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:51,760
so huge, because each block only
has a little bit of magic in it,

1716
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:54,440
so you need a lot of it to 
actually matter. 

1717
01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:57,760
And this sounds far fetched, but
you got to you got to keep in 

1718
01:25:57,760 --> 01:25:59,960
mind what we're trying to reach 
here. 

1719
01:25:59,960 --> 01:26:05,000
We're told that the children may
have cast this grand spell from 

1720
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:07,360
this tower. 
Why? 

1721
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:11,080
Why from this tower? 
So that's why I'm examining and 

1722
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:14,400
theorizing about basalt. 
And that's why we brought it up 

1723
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:18,000
as a relationship to the strange
stone so early. 

1724
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:22,080
Because, yeah, something's got 
to explain why they picked this 

1725
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:26,240
spot to cast this big spell, you
know, assuming that's what 

1726
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:29,120
happened. 
So if it's that, to me, that's a

1727
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:34,960
reasonable idea that, hey, 
frozen fire basalt has is frozen

1728
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:37,600
fire too. 
It's just weaker, you know, more

1729
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:40,800
common. 
Obsidian just has more silica. 

1730
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,800
You know, in terms of science, 
that's the biggest difference. 

1731
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:46,560
Basalt isn't sharp. 
Obsidian is extremely sharp. 

1732
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:48,920
There's other differences, but 
that's like one of the main 

1733
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:50,920
differences there. 
Maybe it's relates to blood 

1734
01:26:50,920 --> 01:26:53,080
sacrifice. 
We keep coming back to that and 

1735
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:54,640
it could always be a 
combination, right? 

1736
01:26:54,640 --> 01:27:01,000
Maybe you, you, you the blood's 
is the the blood's the reason 

1737
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:05,320
why the basalt blocks are oily. 
You know, not like currently in 

1738
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:08,240
in not MO Kalin anyway, but 
maybe some sort of blood magic 

1739
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,800
that causes them to be that way.
Maybe that's what makes them 

1740
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:13,960
oily permanently rather than 
just temporarily cause of 

1741
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,360
moisture. 
I'm really getting out here with

1742
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:19,000
these ideas. 
But again, it's it's got to be 

1743
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:21,040
something could be a 
combination. 

1744
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:23,960
Here's a different account. 
This one's from Rule of Ice and 

1745
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:28,880
Fire and it gets into some of 
the really creepy deep options. 

1746
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:32,960
But it does give voice to them, 
which is why we're able to play 

1747
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:36,280
with these ideas without acting 
like it's something that we came

1748
01:27:36,280 --> 01:27:37,480
up with out of nowhere. 
Quote. 

1749
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:43,000
Gathering in their hundreds, 
some say on the Isle of Faces, 

1750
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:47,920
and calling on their old gods 
with song and prayer and grisly 

1751
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:53,160
sacrifice, 1000 captive men were
fed to the weirwood, one version

1752
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:57,120
of the tale goes, whilst another
claims the Children used the 

1753
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:02,480
blood of their own young. 
And the old gods stirred and 

1754
01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:06,840
giants awoke in the earth, and 
all of Westeros shook and 

1755
01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:10,000
trembled. 
Great cracks appeared in the 

1756
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:14,040
earth, and hills and mountains 
collapsed and were swallowed up,

1757
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:19,000
and then the seas came rushing 
in, and the arm of Dorne was 

1758
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:23,800
broken and shattered by the 
force of the water until only a 

1759
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:28,440
few bare rocky islands remained 
above the waves. 

1760
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:33,320
The Summer Sea joined the Narrow
Sea, and the bridge between 

1761
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:39,320
Essos and Westeros vanished for 
all time, or so the legend says.

1762
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:43,880
There's certainly an argument 
against MO Kaelin is that the 

1763
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:48,120
Isle of Faces is more explicitly
and obviously a place of the Old

1764
01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:50,080
Gods. 
It has heart trees all over it 

1765
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:52,120
and you know, there's this 
association with the pact and 

1766
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:53,560
the Green Man. 
So this it's a little more 

1767
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:55,520
explicit I think than than MO 
Kaelin. 

1768
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:59,080
But nevertheless, MO Kaelin is 
mentioned an awful lot as a 

1769
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:01,960
possibility here. 
It's probably the second it's by

1770
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:06,400
#2 behind the Isle of Faces in 
terms of allusions to a place of

1771
01:29:06,400 --> 01:29:09,840
power that the old gods wielders
or the children or both can make

1772
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:11,280
use of. 
Again. 

1773
01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:13,960
MO Kalen no heart tree. 
Christina Kaye brought up the 

1774
01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:16,040
possibility that there's stumps 
under the under the water. 

1775
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:21,160
Very good idea beneath that muck
bodies and stumps could be down 

1776
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:25,240
there. 
All sorts of sorceress energies 

1777
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:28,840
waiting to be tapped into. 
So that quote is real creepy. 

1778
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:32,400
The children sacrificing their 
own young and or sacrificing 

1779
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:34,840
captives. 
Yeah, I say and or because it 

1780
01:29:34,840 --> 01:29:39,280
could be both and and this is 
also why this this children's 

1781
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:41,920
tower, the idea of a tower that 
the children use their magic in.

1782
01:29:42,080 --> 01:29:44,640
This is why we keep coming back 
to the idea that they may have 

1783
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:47,920
worked together with other human
old gods worshippers. 

1784
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:51,880
That would help explain why the 
children cast a spell from 

1785
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:54,520
someone's castle. 
Like again, that just is that 

1786
01:29:54,520 --> 01:29:58,080
does not track children casting 
spells and castles only if 

1787
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:01,000
they're working with humans. 
Would that seem to make sense? 

1788
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:03,480
Which does make sense. 
Humans and children working 

1789
01:30:03,480 --> 01:30:04,760
together. 
There's plenty of examples of 

1790
01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:06,480
that. 
The whole hero, the whole story 

1791
01:30:06,480 --> 01:30:09,360
of the last hero was there 
humans getting 100 Obsidian 

1792
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:12,400
blades a year from the children 
of the night, the Nights watch 

1793
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:13,640
receiving that. 
I mean, same difference. 

1794
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:17,440
Those are humans. 
But yeah, so there's there is 

1795
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:22,520
interplay and work and and 
exchanges between humanity and 

1796
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:23,880
the children. 
And not not all of its 

1797
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,560
sorceress, but most of it is. 
And this, this phrasing, giant 

1798
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:29,520
cracks, great cracks appeared in
the earth. 

1799
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:32,720
Giants awoke from the earth. 
Giants awoke from the earth is 

1800
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:35,200
that phrase is used more often 
than earthquake. 

1801
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:42,280
In fact, the word earthquake 
appears once in all of the 

1802
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:44,200
books. 
Once. 

1803
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:45,760
And it's not about an 
earthquake. 

1804
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:49,200
It's about an overweight man. 
Tyrion's being thinking 

1805
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:52,000
sarcastically about this big man
is like whenever he moves it's 

1806
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:54,440
like an earthquake. 
I think it might be Yazan 

1807
01:30:54,440 --> 01:30:57,280
Zoukegaz who is a very large 
man, but I don't remember. 

1808
01:30:57,280 --> 01:30:59,680
Anyway, the point is it's not 
about an earthquake. 

1809
01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:03,280
That said, for Tyrion to joke 
about an earthquake 

1810
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,240
sarcastically, in his mind he 
has to know what an earthquake 

1811
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:09,160
is. 
That said, it really does seem 

1812
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:13,200
like, and I didn't know this 
until this episode till thinking

1813
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:17,640
about this episode, researching 
this episode, earthquakes are 

1814
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:22,200
lacking in Westeros and Essos. 
There are not a lot of them in 

1815
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:24,480
the real world. 
A lot of castles built in the 

1816
01:31:24,480 --> 01:31:26,760
medieval period or whenever were
destroyed by earthquakes. 

1817
01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:30,120
There is not a single castle in 
Westeros that's destroyed by an 

1818
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:32,440
earthquake, or if it has, it's 
been rebuilt. 

1819
01:31:32,440 --> 01:31:35,040
There is not a single ruin. 
That's a ruin because of an 

1820
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:37,720
earthquake, right? 
That's odd. 

1821
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:41,160
Not odd in like that's bad world
building. 

1822
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:44,680
No, it might mean the 
supernatural, the the high magic

1823
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:48,960
goes farther than we think. 
What I mean is that maybe the 

1824
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:53,240
Earth, the tremors, the tectonic
plates, whatever scientific 

1825
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:55,680
underpinning you want to put 
behind it, the children have 

1826
01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:00,160
done something to still that the
fact that earthquakes are so 

1827
01:32:00,160 --> 01:32:03,360
rare could be an argument for 
the ones that happened being 

1828
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:05,360
supernatural, or it could work 
against that. 

1829
01:32:05,360 --> 01:32:07,200
I was like, well, earthquakes 
are so rare, how can we say 

1830
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:08,600
they're supernatural when 
they're so rare? 

1831
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:09,400
Well, that. 
Yeah. 

1832
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:10,640
So that argument can go both 
ways. 

1833
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,720
I prefer the more interesting 
supernatural version. 

1834
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:16,920
But yeah, the giants from the 
Earth phrasing, that's the that 

1835
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:19,040
term is used more often than 
earthquake because like I said, 

1836
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:20,280
earthquake isn't used really at 
all. 

1837
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:23,560
And it's aligned with the 
concept of the Horn of Jorman, 

1838
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:27,480
an item that supposedly can 
create earthquakes because 

1839
01:32:27,480 --> 01:32:29,680
that's what giants from the 
Earth means. 

1840
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,000
Earthquake. 
Big ones, right? 

1841
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:34,800
So that that's curious, isn't 
it? 

1842
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:36,360
You know that I think it's 
pretty neat with some of these 

1843
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:38,320
things that we might not have 
thought about unless we get 

1844
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:42,280
really deep into this rabbit 
hole or this hole generated by 

1845
01:32:42,280 --> 01:32:46,800
an earthquake. 
So if we consider other 

1846
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:49,080
potential violence, this next 
section is called Blood in the 

1847
01:32:49,080 --> 01:32:52,200
Bogs. 
If they didn't work with 

1848
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:57,760
humanity to cast a spell from 
Moat Kalin, then they must have 

1849
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:02,480
killed the humans that were 
there, which doesn't sound like 

1850
01:33:02,480 --> 01:33:05,520
the kind of things the children 
do, like sneak into a castle and

1851
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,200
kill everyone there. 
That would does exactly have a 

1852
01:33:08,200 --> 01:33:09,280
lot of precedent. 
Does it? 

1853
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:12,360
But why is it called the 
children's tower then? 

1854
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:14,760
You know, like it's it. 
There's just no way around that,

1855
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:17,840
you know. 
So I I do think that this is 

1856
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,920
possible that the children 
attacked the first men that 

1857
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:24,400
lived there and cast some spell.
But more I think it's more 

1858
01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:27,560
likely that old gods worshipping
humans worked with the children 

1859
01:33:28,200 --> 01:33:31,520
to keep out the non worshippers,
which would mostly have been and

1860
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:34,080
all's probably. 
But but is it's possible that 

1861
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:37,000
there were earlier era first men
that that were not on board with

1862
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:39,520
the old gods that needed to be 
dealt with or kept out? 

1863
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:42,040
Shared enemy, right? 
You got it. 

1864
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:43,920
We have the same religion and we
have the same enemy, the 

1865
01:33:44,360 --> 01:33:46,120
children and humans working side
by side. 

1866
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:48,880
Very easy to imagine that given 
those circumstances. 

1867
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:51,320
So maybe, yeah, maybe it's a 
hinge of the world. 

1868
01:33:51,440 --> 01:33:54,400
The hinge of the world like like
the wall or the place where the 

1869
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:56,400
wall is built. 
It's not really clear on which 

1870
01:33:56,400 --> 01:34:00,240
is which, whether the the wall 
creates the hinge or the wall is

1871
01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:02,520
there in part because the hinge 
was already there. 

1872
01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:06,080
We don't really have a great 
understanding of what Melisandre

1873
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:08,960
meant by hinge of the world 
other than that's a place of 

1874
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:10,600
greater power. 
Her magic is going to work 

1875
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:12,240
better there. 
That's pretty explicit. 

1876
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:15,000
She's not a weasel wordy with 
that. 

1877
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:17,560
She's very clear in her thoughts
with that. 

1878
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:21,920
So that could be what's going on
here and that would be really 

1879
01:34:21,920 --> 01:34:23,520
interesting. 
Again, considering the northern 

1880
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:27,440
bubble theory, I proposed that 
two that it's two hinges of the 

1881
01:34:27,440 --> 01:34:31,760
world are the the crux of how 
this continent is able to stay 

1882
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:34,200
separate. 
You got a wall, the wall and the

1883
01:34:34,480 --> 01:34:38,920
the area South of Mokalin and 
perhaps magic making all that 

1884
01:34:38,920 --> 01:34:42,440
happen. 
Another reason not maybe being 

1885
01:34:42,440 --> 01:34:43,680
high up. 
Maybe there's something about 

1886
01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:46,320
being high up in the air on a 
tower that helps the magic work 

1887
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:49,480
better. 
Or yeah, throwing bodies down 

1888
01:34:49,480 --> 01:34:52,600
into the bog from a high. 
I I just kind of making things 

1889
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:53,480
up. 
I really don't know. 

1890
01:34:54,080 --> 01:34:57,600
But just as a reminder, here's 
what it's like now. 

1891
01:34:57,920 --> 01:35:01,040
Quote. 
How many of the Garrison are 

1892
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:02,680
left? 
Some. 

1893
01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:05,120
Said the Iron Man. 
I don't know. 

1894
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:08,440
Fewer than we was before. 
Some in the Drunkard's tower 

1895
01:35:08,440 --> 01:35:10,600
too, I think. 
Not the children's tower. 

1896
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:12,920
Dagon Cod went over there a few 
days back. 

1897
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:15,880
Only two men left alive, he 
said, and they was eaten on the 

1898
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:17,520
dead ones. 
He killed them both, if you can 

1899
01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:20,760
believe that. 
House Cod's motto is, though all

1900
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:24,720
men do despise us, these 
cannibal guys were even worse. 

1901
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:29,200
A a Cod who is despised by all 
killed these two 'cause even the

1902
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:32,480
Ironborn are like cannibalism. 
Nah, that's too far. 

1903
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:37,680
Even the Ironborn, but I'm not 
sure the children in the first 

1904
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:40,160
manner have those same 
restrictions. 

1905
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:42,040
You know what I mean? 
Like the children. 

1906
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,520
I mean, it's, it's not 
cannibalism to eat a person. 

1907
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:49,040
It it is cannibalism is to eat 
another child of the forest. 

1908
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:52,240
But they don't necessarily have 
the same view on cannibalism. 

1909
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:55,240
Cannibalism being, you know, one
of the worst things. 

1910
01:35:55,920 --> 01:36:00,560
These are chants. 
They do cause a lot of values 

1911
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:03,520
that first men have kind of come
from old God's worship. 

1912
01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:06,920
Not all of it, but things like 
guessed right and kin slang. 

1913
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:10,680
A lot of that is comes from that
same origin. 

1914
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:15,680
Not only was there no Kings Road
and no swamp, there may have 

1915
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:19,960
just been a dirt path back in 
the day, which reminds us that 

1916
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,080
assault would have been easier 
with no swamp there. 

1917
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:26,240
But since no end alls ever got 
through and it's kind of why I 

1918
01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:29,120
lean towards the flooding 
happened well before the end 

1919
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:32,280
alls came, which which is pretty
well supported, which gets to 

1920
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:35,400
the heart of the matter. 
It it was relatively easy to 

1921
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,640
cross the neck. 
Not to say that it was some sort

1922
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:40,960
of Hwy. but we're talking night 
and day in terms of how easy it 

1923
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:43,720
is to cross now versus how easy 
it was to cross then, even 

1924
01:36:43,720 --> 01:36:48,080
without a King's Road, right? 
So that says a lot. 

1925
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:50,320
If they were like, we need to 
make this barrier harder to 

1926
01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:54,000
cross, we need to make it 
unappealing, then you could 

1927
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:57,680
understand why they might have 
altered it because there would 

1928
01:36:57,680 --> 01:36:58,880
have been other ways through, 
right? 

1929
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:04,600
Right now there's like Rob tells
Galbert Glover and Jason 

1930
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:08,760
Mallister to go into the neck 
and how you don't need to find 

1931
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:10,720
your way through. 
They'll find you and help you 

1932
01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:12,720
find the way through. 
There are ways through that the 

1933
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:15,440
chronic men know before the 
chronic men, there would have 

1934
01:37:15,440 --> 01:37:17,240
been ways through that would 
have been a lot easier to find, 

1935
01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:19,000
a lot simpler. 
Just passes through the hills. 

1936
01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:22,720
And in fact, it might have been 
so easy that just a person that 

1937
01:37:22,720 --> 01:37:24,440
never been there before could 
find their way through. 

1938
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:28,200
Just keep going north, you know?
Which again is the point. 

1939
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:30,200
They didn't want it to be so 
easy to get N if they're trying 

1940
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:34,080
to protect the north, cut it off
well that the the the state it 

1941
01:37:34,080 --> 01:37:35,520
was in back then was not going 
to cut it. 

1942
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,160
Let's see here, necessity is the
mother Earth of invention. 

1943
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:44,320
That's our next section. 
Now part of the trope George is 

1944
01:37:44,320 --> 01:37:47,600
using here. 
It's a well trod fantasy trope, 

1945
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:49,800
not only just fantasy because 
it's a thing that happens in the

1946
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:53,360
real world, which is humans 
arriving and ruining things for 

1947
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:55,320
an elder race, sometimes other 
humans. 

1948
01:37:55,600 --> 01:37:58,200
That's usually the real world 
version, but humans came to rest

1949
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:01,320
Ros and you can pretty much 
trace the decline of the 

1950
01:38:01,320 --> 01:38:04,520
children to starting with the 
arrival of the First Men. 

1951
01:38:05,080 --> 01:38:07,720
Tolkien uses this arguably 
multiple times. 

1952
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:10,960
First there were the Valar and 
the Mayar, who are the Ainuer 

1953
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:13,080
combined as as a whole they're 
called the Ainuer. 

1954
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:18,120
When the elves awakened and 
became a species in in Arda, 

1955
01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:21,640
some of the Ainuer weren't happy
about it. 

1956
01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:24,920
And then the the elves 
eventually took white ships to 

1957
01:38:24,920 --> 01:38:26,520
Middle Earth. 
The white ships, keep in mind. 

1958
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:29,440
And then the humans came along 
and the elves weren't happy 

1959
01:38:29,440 --> 01:38:32,120
about that. 
So it's like, well, we were here

1960
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:33,200
first. 
No, we were here first. 

1961
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:33,800
No, we were. 
Yeah. 

1962
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:36,200
Yeah. 
And, and by the way, elves and 

1963
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,400
humans are grouped together as 
the Children of Oluvatar. 

1964
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:41,240
So children, Yes. 
Very interesting, George. 

1965
01:38:41,440 --> 01:38:44,880
Obviously massive Tokian fan, 
massively influenced by Tokian. 

1966
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:49,440
So when when Tokian calls some 
ancient beings the children of a

1967
01:38:49,440 --> 01:38:53,280
Lubitar, children of a Lubitar, 
you say, yeah, a Lubitar is God 

1968
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:57,680
in, in Lord of the Rings. 
Basically it's the God, the 

1969
01:38:57,680 --> 01:39:00,640
creator God is in. 
In the Witcher universe, it's 

1970
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:03,080
really similar. 
Elves were there first and 

1971
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:07,000
humans arrived on white ships 
and the elves were like, Dang 

1972
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:09,920
it, Elves thought humans were a 
short term problem in the 

1973
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:11,960
Witcher verse that they die out 
like a disease. 

1974
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:14,840
Like we just have to last. 
We just have to outlast them and

1975
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:17,560
then we'll be fine. 
Of course, they did not outlast 

1976
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:20,400
them. 
Humans just kept growing and and

1977
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:22,520
spreading. 
And that might be how the 

1978
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:23,960
children saw it. 
They're like, yeah, we'll 

1979
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:25,760
outlast them. 
They'll die off. 

1980
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:28,040
And then, you know, we'll go 
back to the way it was. 

1981
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:31,200
Maybe that's what they thought 
in in the real world. 

1982
01:39:31,200 --> 01:39:32,680
There's other similarities too. 
Obviously. 

1983
01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:36,520
You can think about it as, you 
know, Western colonists coming 

1984
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:40,400
to North America basic or going 
old, going older, the Romans and

1985
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:41,800
the Druids. 
The Romans were just kind of 

1986
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:43,640
wiped out. 
All knowledge about the Druids. 

1987
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:46,160
That's A and the Druids were 
natives and the Romans were 

1988
01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:48,080
colonizers. 
There's a lot of the story of a 

1989
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:53,840
lot of colonization is 
destruction of the lore and 

1990
01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:55,960
culture that had been there 
before. 

1991
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:58,960
When nations in the real world 
go to war, the all or nothing 

1992
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:01,320
kill or be killed nature of it. 
Yeah, at least of those 

1993
01:40:01,320 --> 01:40:02,560
innovations that we talked about
before. 

1994
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:04,040
In terms of medical, it's not 
just medical. 

1995
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:08,440
It's usually weapons that get 
innovative on which, as I said, 

1996
01:40:08,440 --> 01:40:11,640
that doesn't have a good effect 
in the long term. 

1997
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:14,880
So this brings back to something
I touched on before. 

1998
01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:18,160
The children hadn't weaponized a
lot of their magic early on. 

1999
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:22,120
They didn't have a reason to. 
So this not only were was the 

2000
01:40:22,120 --> 01:40:25,960
arrival of humanity the 
beginning of the end or their 

2001
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:31,440
decline because humans were just
kind of stronger and took over a

2002
01:40:31,440 --> 01:40:36,040
lot of things, but because it 
made the children more violent, 

2003
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:40,040
they had to become more violent 
to save themselves. 

2004
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:42,480
So that had a ripple down effect
on their entire culture. 

2005
01:40:42,480 --> 01:40:45,560
Before that they were they still
had to fight against the giants 

2006
01:40:45,560 --> 01:40:48,440
and all that, but this is such a
lighter scale. 

2007
01:40:48,560 --> 01:40:53,400
It's like early humans having to
deal with wild animals, which is

2008
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:57,400
a real danger, but it's not like
early humans having to deal with

2009
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:02,200
invading armies, which is way 
more dangerous and more akin to 

2010
01:41:02,200 --> 01:41:04,720
what we're Speaking of here. 
The children only had to deal 

2011
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,160
with wild animals, which they 
were probably better at dealing 

2012
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:10,520
with than early humans because 
of their closeness to nature, 

2013
01:41:11,040 --> 01:41:12,960
their magic and proximity to all
that. 

2014
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:17,160
They're all, they're 100,000 
years of experience with that. 

2015
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:20,320
So yeah, 100,000 years of being 
who they were. 

2016
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:22,720
And then the humans arrive and 
the children have to go down a 

2017
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,880
military evolution path. 
That's a big change. 

2018
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:29,000
That's a huge change because 
they probably didn't have an 

2019
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:32,880
existential crisis before this 
that that drove them to make 

2020
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:37,200
these innovations. 
Now, one thing that's missing, 

2021
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:41,240
not missing but not very well 
explored in George's world is 

2022
01:41:41,240 --> 01:41:42,800
runes. 
He says they're there. 

2023
01:41:42,800 --> 01:41:44,680
There's runes all over the place
on rocks. 

2024
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:49,720
And as Christina Kay pointed out
a few months ago, that's 

2025
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:50,760
writing. 
Yeah. 

2026
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:52,840
The, the, you can't say the 
First Men didn't have writing. 

2027
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:56,120
They didn't have paper. 
They did have writing. 

2028
01:41:56,120 --> 01:41:59,120
Runes are writing just like 
hieroglyphics are writing. 

2029
01:41:59,120 --> 01:42:01,800
It's not an alphabet 
necessarily, but sometimes it 

2030
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:03,560
is. 
Sometimes they use characters 

2031
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:05,000
that mean letters and those lead
to things. 

2032
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:07,120
Other times it's a shorthand for
some. 

2033
01:42:07,440 --> 01:42:11,760
Either way it's writing runic, 
alphabetic, doesn't matter. 

2034
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:19,480
Or both still. 
So I don't think that the first 

2035
01:42:19,480 --> 01:42:22,560
man who worshipped the old gods 
and ever went to war with the 

2036
01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,160
children. 
I think it was non old gods 

2037
01:42:25,160 --> 01:42:27,280
worshipping First Men that 
fought the children. 

2038
01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:31,080
And by the time of the pact it 
started to change or it already 

2039
01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:33,280
started to change that a lot of 
First Men were adopting the old 

2040
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:35,640
gods. 
I don't think those ever went to

2041
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:37,560
war with each other. 
I could be wrong. 

2042
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:39,240
Obviously this is not something 
I could say with a lot of 

2043
01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:41,400
confidence. 
Earlier I referred to the 

2044
01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:44,800
tradition of the children giving
100 Obsidian dagger to the watch

2045
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:48,560
every year. 
Is this benevolence, you know, 

2046
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:51,520
helping, just helping out Like, 
hey, you know, we want to, we're

2047
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:54,520
both, this is our common enemy. 
So let's give you a little help 

2048
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:56,480
dealing with it. 
Or is it some sort of recurring 

2049
01:42:56,480 --> 01:42:58,880
apology? 
It's like, hey, we made the 

2050
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:02,280
others our bad, you know, it 
didn't quite go the way we 

2051
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:05,440
wanted. 
Sorry we unleashed these beings 

2052
01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:08,040
on you, but at least we'll help 
you fight back. 

2053
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:12,960
Hi, Magic. 
It's our next section. 

2054
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:16,840
And that is, I hope, well set up
by what we just talked about 

2055
01:43:16,840 --> 01:43:19,320
with the children and the 
others. 

2056
01:43:20,040 --> 01:43:22,920
We're exploring the idea of the 
highest possible magics, 

2057
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:26,840
manipulation of the earth in 
ways that requires, well, a lot.

2058
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:30,120
Knowledge, ability, sacrifice. 
We're not talking about, you 

2059
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:33,920
know, those St. performers that 
can draw small amounts of fire 

2060
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:37,520
out of Obsidian, as as Quaithe 
put it, we're talking about huge

2061
01:43:37,520 --> 01:43:40,480
amounts of magic, possibly 
involving lots of people or lots

2062
01:43:40,480 --> 01:43:46,320
of children, or both. 
So if we're all aware of the 

2063
01:43:46,320 --> 01:43:49,400
possibility that this is a big 
exaggeration, that these were 

2064
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:52,600
mostly natural phenomena that 
the children had nothing to do 

2065
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:56,200
with or very little to do with, 
but we should, if we're being 

2066
01:43:56,200 --> 01:44:00,160
thorough, explore the reverse 
possibility that in fact they've

2067
01:44:00,160 --> 01:44:03,080
done bigger, grander things or 
are capable of that. 

2068
01:44:03,760 --> 01:44:07,280
Yes, the breaking of the arm was
probably high magic, but maybe 

2069
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:10,160
this relates to the seasons 
being out of whack or came from 

2070
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:12,960
the same magics. 
Again, that's earth magic 

2071
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:16,880
earthquake again, hardly used in
the in the term, but the concept

2072
01:44:16,880 --> 01:44:19,240
is there. 
Maybe the again, maybe the 

2073
01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:22,240
children are the reason there's 
not so many earthquakes now. 

2074
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:26,200
They stilled the place. 
If that sounds far fetched to 

2075
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:31,080
you, well, it shouldn't no 
offense, because that's what the

2076
01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:32,720
Valerians did with the 14 
flames. 

2077
01:44:32,720 --> 01:44:36,520
They controlled the volcanoes. 
They held back that power and 

2078
01:44:36,520 --> 01:44:41,760
drew on it like a like wind 
turbines or water wheels, like 

2079
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:44,200
the rushing water turns the 
wheel faster and they draw 

2080
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:46,600
energy from that. 
That's not sorceress, but the 

2081
01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:49,600
concept is is right there. 
They're drawing energy from 

2082
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:51,400
those volcanic energies that 
fire magic. 

2083
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:55,000
And then one day, whoops, it got
out of hand and the doom 

2084
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:57,280
happened. 
The doom didn't happen because 

2085
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:59,160
pressures from the beneath earth
became too great. 

2086
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:01,640
It happened because the 
Valyrians lost control over it, 

2087
01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:04,120
right? 
I mean, it's kind of saying a 

2088
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:06,280
little 6 of 1/2 a dozen of the 
other. 

2089
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:10,040
But the but probably the 
Valyrians losing it was what 

2090
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:12,000
happened. 
It would have been lost long 

2091
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:14,880
before those volcanoes would 
have gone off a lot sooner if 

2092
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:17,440
not for the Valyrians and that 
would have been more natural. 

2093
01:45:17,440 --> 01:45:21,120
The Valyrians keeping it from 
going off is a similar version 

2094
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:23,800
of magic to them making it go 
off sooner, which might be what 

2095
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:26,680
the children did at Hardhome. 
We talked about Hardhome. 

2096
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:28,760
I'm not sure we talked about the
possibility that the children 

2097
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:30,360
responsible for it. 
I think maybe we did. 

2098
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:33,080
Either way, it should be 
mentioned because again, it's 

2099
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:36,920
the magic of the earth. 
They could just tweak a little 

2100
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:39,120
something, something to change 
the pressure under a volcano. 

2101
01:45:39,120 --> 01:45:40,960
Boom, there it goes. 
Especially if it's already close

2102
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:42,880
to going off. 
They probably can't take a just 

2103
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:46,800
a a hill, a mountain that's got 
no volcanic activity and cause 

2104
01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:49,080
it to blow up. 
But if it's already got some 

2105
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:51,440
magma building up under it, they
could give it a little push, 

2106
01:45:51,440 --> 01:45:53,000
give it a little help, give it a
boost. 

2107
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:56,480
And that's why I brought up the 
possibility that the neck maybe 

2108
01:45:56,480 --> 01:45:58,720
would have flooded anyway. 
Maybe give another thousand 

2109
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:00,880
years and the same result would 
have happened without magic. 

2110
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:02,440
But the children made it happen 
sooner. 

2111
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:05,600
So working on this episode has 
made me think about some other 

2112
01:46:05,600 --> 01:46:08,640
possibilities, like what are the
other examples of high magic 

2113
01:46:09,120 --> 01:46:11,400
that maybe fall into this 
category or in some sort of a 

2114
01:46:11,400 --> 01:46:14,760
parallel category. 
The horn of winter is very 

2115
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:17,680
similar because the horn of 
Winter is supposedly capable of 

2116
01:46:17,680 --> 01:46:20,320
waking giants from earth which 
is a metaphor for earthquakes. 

2117
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:22,520
So if if the horn of winter can 
cause earthquakes then that is a

2118
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:25,800
very similar form of magic to 
the breaking of the arm of Dorne

2119
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:26,880
and maybe the flooding of the 
neck. 

2120
01:46:27,320 --> 01:46:30,480
It's the non literal version of 
the Kraken horn. 

2121
01:46:30,480 --> 01:46:33,000
The Kraken horn that summons 
monsters from the deep that's 

2122
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:35,960
supposedly actually summoning 
krakens. 

2123
01:46:35,960 --> 01:46:39,120
Whereas the horn of winter 
doesn't actually summon giants. 

2124
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:42,640
It's a metaphor for giants 
rumbling the earth from beneath.

2125
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:46,240
Maybe the Kraken horn is 
supposed to be metaphorical, 

2126
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:49,680
That it can cause tsunamis or 
earthquakes below the sea. 

2127
01:46:50,320 --> 01:46:52,320
I kind of prefer that it summons
krakens though. 

2128
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:57,160
The long Night. 
If the long night is partly 

2129
01:46:57,160 --> 01:47:03,880
volcanic or otherwise caused by 
partly natural phenomena, that 

2130
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:06,600
it was helped by magic, well, 
there you go, that's related. 

2131
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:10,080
The shadow, I don't know how it 
relates or doesn't but that 

2132
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:13,720
seems like a big ol thing of 
magic because it's a semi 

2133
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:17,240
permanent condition that's 
existed over a wide geographical

2134
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:23,000
range for 10,000 years or more. 
The magic of the wall, what's up

2135
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:25,800
with that? 
I mean that is a huge edifice 

2136
01:47:25,800 --> 01:47:27,920
isn't it? 
Brandon the builder supposedly 

2137
01:47:27,920 --> 01:47:30,920
put spells in there. 
It absolutely does have some 

2138
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:34,520
effect on the others. 
Cold hands can't cross the 

2139
01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:38,480
whites had to be like asleep to 
be to be able to cross it. 

2140
01:47:38,480 --> 01:47:40,360
You know they woke up on once 
they're on the other side. 

2141
01:47:40,360 --> 01:47:42,840
John has struggles to connect 
with ghosts when they're on 

2142
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:44,880
opposite sides. 
I don't know if that's high 

2143
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:46,480
magic. 
It's definitely magic. 

2144
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:49,400
Hard home again, I mentioned 
hard home that volcano there is 

2145
01:47:49,400 --> 01:47:53,640
that high magic or is that just 
a giving a tweak to the natural 

2146
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:57,320
forces already there? 
The sorrows, That's a big one. 

2147
01:47:57,320 --> 01:48:01,920
If Karen the Great caused a 
permanent condition on a wide 

2148
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:06,160
stretch of Mother Roy that 
causes grayscale, and that's a 

2149
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:09,440
big deal. 
And fog and and time, like 

2150
01:48:09,440 --> 01:48:12,800
chronological anomalies. 
When they cross the same bridge 

2151
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:18,160
twice, that's high magic. 
What about the creation of the 

2152
01:48:18,160 --> 01:48:19,760
Others? 
We've talked about that as a 

2153
01:48:19,760 --> 01:48:24,440
potential parallel, as the 
ultimate revenge of nature. 

2154
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:28,000
The cold that wipes it all out. 
The big reset. 

2155
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:33,840
Yeah, that could be their origin
stinks of high magic, right? 

2156
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:35,360
They are very explicitly 
magical. 

2157
01:48:35,480 --> 01:48:37,760
They're the most explicitly 
magical beings there are in the 

2158
01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:39,040
store. 
The children are pretty magical,

2159
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:42,560
but they're not fundamentally 
magical, I don't think. 

2160
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,080
I'm not sure that every single 
child of the forest has magical 

2161
01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:48,320
aptitude, but the others, every 
single one of them, is a 

2162
01:48:48,960 --> 01:48:54,000
unearthly spirit that walks on 
snow and melts when stabbed with

2163
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:57,320
Obsidian and things that just 
aren't of this world really. 

2164
01:48:57,320 --> 01:49:01,200
Except they are of this world 
somehow anyway. 

2165
01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:06,880
Is the Hammer of Waters that far
beyond a shadow baby or seeing 

2166
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,120
the future? 
Am I just injecting my own 

2167
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:12,000
opinion as to what is high magic
and what isn't I I would love 

2168
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:14,760
your feedback here. 
This is a wide open topic and 

2169
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:17,880
there isn't anyone that can be 
like oh this is how it works. 

2170
01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:20,440
This is definitive because 
George isn't even going to do 

2171
01:49:20,440 --> 01:49:21,560
that. 
George isn't going to. 

2172
01:49:21,560 --> 01:49:24,080
George doesn't want it to be 
that nailed down. 

2173
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:26,520
That doesn't mean we can't have 
fun imagining what it might be. 

2174
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:28,800
He likes that too. 
He wants us to do that because, 

2175
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:31,120
and that's why he doesn't nail 
it down, because if he nails it 

2176
01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:32,640
down, then we're not going to 
think about it as much. 

2177
01:49:32,640 --> 01:49:35,800
We're not We, we have an answer.
We have no reason to imagine or 

2178
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:41,400
less reason to imagine. 
Planetos goes on tilt. 

2179
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:46,520
This is the idea that if these 
high magics caused earthquakes, 

2180
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:50,680
and I think maybe they, it had 
an unintended effect of causing 

2181
01:49:50,680 --> 01:49:55,160
change on an astronomical scale,
a magical accident that leads to

2182
01:49:55,160 --> 01:49:58,520
seasonal inconsistency. 
Let's look at a little of the 

2183
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:03,800
science behind that because it's
very compelling and very in line

2184
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:05,960
with what we've discussed so 
far. 

2185
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:07,600
By the way, planet toast goes on
tilt. 

2186
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:09,760
That's a reference to poker or 
gambling. 

2187
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,920
When you are playing mad, that's
being on tilt. 

2188
01:50:14,560 --> 01:50:15,840
In this case, I'm taking it 
literally. 

2189
01:50:15,840 --> 01:50:17,360
We're talking about a planet 
actually tilting. 

2190
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:20,680
OK, here's a little science for 
you. 

2191
01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:25,240
If Earth has axial tilt, it's, I
think it's like 23 1/2°, but 

2192
01:50:25,240 --> 01:50:30,520
that varies based on gravity of 
other bodies like the moon and 

2193
01:50:30,520 --> 01:50:35,080
the sun. 
So if the Earth didn't have an 

2194
01:50:35,080 --> 01:50:38,360
axial tilt, if it was straight 
up and down and just rotated 

2195
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:42,120
this way and then around the 
sun, there would be no seasons. 

2196
01:50:42,760 --> 01:50:44,840
The sun would always be right 
over the equator. 

2197
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:46,480
Temperatures would be 
consistent, but not in a good 

2198
01:50:46,480 --> 01:50:47,720
way. 
There'd be parts of the world 

2199
01:50:47,720 --> 01:50:50,080
that we're always cold and parts
of the world that we're always 

2200
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:52,800
hot, at least, you know, at 
least not compared to what we're

2201
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:55,240
used to. 
A not so intuitive part of this 

2202
01:50:55,240 --> 01:50:59,920
would be the massive wind 
because of the extreme 

2203
01:50:59,920 --> 01:51:04,200
difference in the heat in one 
place and the cold in another 

2204
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:05,960
place because there's no sun 
here and there's lots of sun 

2205
01:51:05,960 --> 01:51:08,680
here. 
This is the essence of what 

2206
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:11,520
causes pressure changes when 
temperatures vary so that and 

2207
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:15,320
pressure changes causes movement
of air, which causes wind. 

2208
01:51:15,440 --> 01:51:17,160
So there would be huge amounts 
of wind. 

2209
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:20,520
It would be a very windy, it 
would be wind to toasts the 

2210
01:51:20,520 --> 01:51:23,320
planet would be called. 
But Wind Haven is one of 

2211
01:51:23,320 --> 01:51:24,640
George's books. 
It would be like that. 

2212
01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:26,600
And these are permanent 
imbalances. 

2213
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:28,040
This isn't something that would 
work itself out. 

2214
01:51:28,040 --> 01:51:31,680
No, unless the planet tilted, 
this would happen forever. 

2215
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:34,520
Honestly, if the children really
wanted to mess things up, they 

2216
01:51:34,520 --> 01:51:36,160
would have. 
They could have done that. 

2217
01:51:36,160 --> 01:51:39,400
They could lock the planet in no
tilt rather than more tilt, 

2218
01:51:39,400 --> 01:51:40,680
because it seems like that is 
what happened. 

2219
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:43,560
More tilt is why the seasons are
irregular. 

2220
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:45,840
A little bit of tilt creates 
regular seasons. 

2221
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:49,600
A lot no tilt is no seasons. 
Lots of tilt is inconsistent 

2222
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:51,320
seasons, and that's what we 
have. 

2223
01:51:51,320 --> 01:51:53,160
We have inconsistent seasons 
with Westeros. 

2224
01:51:53,360 --> 01:51:57,560
Earth has the, well, it has 
regular seasons, semi regular 

2225
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:00,080
anyway. 
And that tracks though, because 

2226
01:52:00,080 --> 01:52:03,320
in general, intuitively it's 
easier to destroy than create. 

2227
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:07,120
So it's easier to make the tilt 
of Earth worse than it would be 

2228
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:11,400
to like slow it down or hold it 
in place or whatever, or move it

2229
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:13,200
one way or the other. 
It's easier to blow things up 

2230
01:52:13,200 --> 01:52:15,520
than it is to just grasp the 
whole planet and move it. 

2231
01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:18,720
You know, so that that's 
actually the scientific 

2232
01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:23,760
explanation for the summer that 
never ends the the, the, the 

2233
01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:28,720
heaven, the heaven on earth view
held by the relorists is that no

2234
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:30,400
one dies and the summer never 
ends. 

2235
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:34,640
Well, that's kind of like no 
axial tilt. 

2236
01:52:35,000 --> 01:52:39,240
The summer would never end. 
But we even without the whole 

2237
01:52:39,240 --> 01:52:41,160
planetary aspect, we know that's
a bad thing. 

2238
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:44,360
You know, we don't want that 
might sound good to the 

2239
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:46,960
relorist, but those of us who 
know better, no, that's not 

2240
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:51,040
good. 
So it's, it's pretty cool the 

2241
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:53,360
way this lines up where you can 
play with the science and you 

2242
01:52:53,360 --> 01:52:56,440
can put the magic and, and in 
between you get theories. 

2243
01:52:57,240 --> 01:53:00,000
And this reminds us of how it 
really works on Earth and how it

2244
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:03,600
would work on Westeros too. 
Millions of years of evolution, 

2245
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:07,720
every form of life, sea 
creatures, forest creatures, 

2246
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:11,920
desert creatures, all of them, 
us, them, every single thing, 

2247
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:17,280
hibernation, migration, mating 
season, all these things are 

2248
01:53:17,600 --> 01:53:19,920
evolutionary answers to the 
seasons. 

2249
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:23,560
If we had no seasons, we 
wouldn't have these things. 

2250
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:25,640
They wouldn't animals wouldn't 
hibernate. 

2251
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:29,640
They wouldn't migrate as much. 
Maybe they because they, they 

2252
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,240
wouldn't have a reason to 
migrate because if the 

2253
01:53:31,240 --> 01:53:34,480
temperature isn't changing, like
let's hot here. 

2254
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:37,440
Well, it's cold there. 
Well, it's always how it is, you

2255
01:53:37,440 --> 01:53:40,760
know, like you might birds 
migrate because it was warm and 

2256
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:42,360
now it's cold. 
So they go where it's still 

2257
01:53:42,360 --> 01:53:45,080
warm, and then when it gets too 
hot, you go back to the place 

2258
01:53:45,080 --> 01:53:48,640
where it's moderately warm. 
You can't do that on a planet 

2259
01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:52,640
like with no seasons because 
there's no consistency. 

2260
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:54,760
Or there's rather there's too 
much consistency. 

2261
01:53:55,720 --> 01:54:00,920
Yet Westerosi animals haven't 
evolved around inconsistent 

2262
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:05,400
seasons. 
They seem to be relatively like 

2263
01:54:05,400 --> 01:54:08,000
Earth animals. 
That's not an oversight by 

2264
01:54:08,000 --> 01:54:10,400
George. 
That implies the seasons were 

2265
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:15,200
thrown off relatively recently. 
Because evolution is real, real 

2266
01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:17,920
slow. 
If this happened 10,000 years 

2267
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:19,760
ago, that's not enough time for 
evolution. 

2268
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:24,480
It's plenty of time for 
adaptation, but it's not nearly 

2269
01:54:24,480 --> 01:54:27,360
enough time for evolution. 
You will not see like a lot of 

2270
01:54:27,360 --> 01:54:31,960
new species or massive animal 
change, massive change in animal

2271
01:54:31,960 --> 01:54:35,800
behavior because of 10,000 
years. 

2272
01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:39,640
Because what they were, what 
they've been doing is for 

2273
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:42,480
millennia, 10,000 years in on 
this kind of scale we're talking

2274
01:54:42,480 --> 01:54:45,360
about isn't all that much when 
you're talking about behaviors 

2275
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:50,480
and and life scale patterns that
developed over millions of 

2276
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:53,400
years, right? 
It's 10,000 is a drop in the 

2277
01:54:53,400 --> 01:54:57,160
bucket compared to that sounds 
like a long time and it is in 

2278
01:54:57,160 --> 01:55:00,080
most considerations, but not 
when you're talking about things

2279
01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:02,720
like evolution and planetary 
movement and things like that. 

2280
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:08,000
Bringing it back to A Song of 
Ice and Fire to a character we 

2281
01:55:08,000 --> 01:55:10,320
haven't gotten to talk with 
about too many characters this 

2282
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:13,080
episode because this is this is 
very much world building, 

2283
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:16,440
ancient world stuff. 
But the one character or one of 

2284
01:55:16,440 --> 01:55:19,680
the few characters that keeps 
coming back up, one who can give

2285
01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:24,240
us answers is of course, Bran. 
Here's a conversation where 

2286
01:55:24,960 --> 01:55:27,200
Jojen tells him he's going to 
know thing. 

2287
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:29,240
He's going to learn things that 
he doesn't know yet. 

2288
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:31,920
And Bran's like, well, what do 
you mean? 

2289
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:34,800
Here's the quote. 
What will I know? 

2290
01:55:35,080 --> 01:55:39,120
Bran asked the Reeds afterward, 
when they came with torches 

2291
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:43,120
burning brightly in their hand, 
to carry him back to a small 

2292
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:47,400
chamber off the big cavern where
the singers had made beds for 

2293
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:50,480
them to sleep. 
What do the trees remember? 

2294
01:55:50,680 --> 01:55:54,760
The secrets of the Old Gods. 
Said Jojen Reed. 

2295
01:55:55,200 --> 01:56:00,240
Food and Fire and rest had 
helped restore him after the 

2296
01:56:00,240 --> 01:56:06,160
ordeals of their journey, but he
seemed sadder now, sullen with a

2297
01:56:06,160 --> 01:56:09,240
weary, haunted look about the 
eyes. 

2298
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:13,080
Truths the First Men knew, 
forgotten now in Winterfell, but

2299
01:56:13,080 --> 01:56:16,080
not in the wet wild. 
We live closer to the green in 

2300
01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:19,920
our bogs and krannigs, and we 
remember earth and water, soil 

2301
01:56:19,920 --> 01:56:22,160
and stone, oaks and Elms and 
willows. 

2302
01:56:22,480 --> 01:56:25,000
They were here before us all, 
and will still remain when we 

2303
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,840
are gone. 
We definitely want Bran to 

2304
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:30,160
become familiar with these 
truths again, even just for our 

2305
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:32,240
own satisfaction. 
Just because, you know, we're 

2306
01:56:32,240 --> 01:56:35,680
invested in him as a character, 
but whoa, what does that mean? 

2307
01:56:35,680 --> 01:56:39,760
Secret to the old gods? 
What, what exactly is he gonna 

2308
01:56:39,760 --> 01:56:42,000
learn? 
Like the, the limits of his 

2309
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:44,320
power or what are the greatest 
magics? 

2310
01:56:44,520 --> 01:56:47,240
These things that I listed off 
earlier, are these some of these

2311
01:56:47,240 --> 01:56:49,640
related to that, or are there 
things we haven't heard of yet? 

2312
01:56:50,400 --> 01:56:53,120
Among the many gaps in our 
knowledge Bran might fill in by 

2313
01:56:53,120 --> 01:56:56,080
simply thinking about it. 
Again, this isn't 1 to pin our 

2314
01:56:56,080 --> 01:56:58,560
hopes on. 
But yeah, George could have Bran

2315
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:01,880
cast his mind back to pre human 
times to see like what started 

2316
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:03,520
all this. 
Maybe he maybe he wants to look 

2317
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:07,160
at the origin of the others. 
Or maybe it's important for 

2318
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:10,560
George to have Bran look back 
far enough to see regular 

2319
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:14,320
seasons and go, well, they may 
not seem regular to him, but he 

2320
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:16,000
might because he doesn't 
understand that concept. 

2321
01:57:16,000 --> 01:57:18,000
To him, the seasons are just 
what they are, you know? 

2322
01:57:18,240 --> 01:57:20,520
But if he were introduced to the
idea of, hey, what if they were 

2323
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:24,400
just, you know, 90 days every 
year where it was a certain 

2324
01:57:24,400 --> 01:57:26,800
amount of temperature and this 
and that, and that was kind of 

2325
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:29,280
predictable, mostly predictable.
And be like, whoa, well, that 

2326
01:57:29,280 --> 01:57:30,560
would make life easier, wouldn't
it? 

2327
01:57:31,200 --> 01:57:34,280
Why is it like this now? 
Oh, there's a magical reason. 

2328
01:57:34,600 --> 01:57:37,960
Isn't that interesting? 
He might decide to look into the

2329
01:57:37,960 --> 01:57:41,360
history of the Kradigman just to
be able to give Jojen and mirror

2330
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:44,040
some information 'cause he's, 
he's, he's, that's his friends. 

2331
01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:47,400
And he would want to, you know, 
tell them stories, 'cause they 

2332
01:57:47,440 --> 01:57:48,720
each, they've told each other 
stories. 

2333
01:57:48,720 --> 01:57:50,480
That's part of what they do. 
They're it's part of their 

2334
01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:53,320
friendship. 
Leaf again claims the children 

2335
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:56,120
have lived in those caves for 
100,000 years. 

2336
01:57:56,840 --> 01:58:02,400
Even without magic, that's 
enough time for constellations 

2337
01:58:02,400 --> 01:58:06,000
to change in the sky, for the 
axial tilt to change a little 

2338
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:09,320
bit, for rivers to change, for 
mountains to change. 

2339
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:12,720
That's enough time you could 
actually note the movement of 

2340
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:15,200
continents like continental 
drift would be visible over that

2341
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:16,880
scale. 
Like for in our lifetimes as 

2342
01:58:16,880 --> 01:58:19,760
hell no. 
Australia moves about 7 

2343
01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:22,720
centimeters a year, 100,000 
years. 

2344
01:58:22,720 --> 01:58:26,160
That's four. 
That's over 4 miles, 4 miles of 

2345
01:58:26,160 --> 01:58:27,120
that. 
You would notice that. 

2346
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:29,720
I mean, you wouldn't live 
100,000 years. 

2347
01:58:29,720 --> 01:58:31,680
But if the children have this 
collective memory of it, they'll

2348
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:33,360
be like, yeah, you know, this 
island used to be right there. 

2349
01:58:33,360 --> 01:58:34,520
Now it's like you can barely see
it. 

2350
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:38,480
So that's what we're talking 
about here with scale and and 

2351
01:58:38,480 --> 01:58:41,800
with little tiny changes in 
nature are played out over a 

2352
01:58:41,800 --> 01:58:43,520
very long period of time. 
This is the kind of this is the 

2353
01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:46,680
world the children lived in. 
Maybe if you go back far enough 

2354
01:58:47,320 --> 01:58:50,040
we'd find out one of these other
legends is also true. 

2355
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:53,920
Like the the the story of I 
think it comes from the Carthene

2356
01:58:54,120 --> 01:58:57,160
that there was a second moon 
that one day collided with 

2357
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:00,600
planet 2. 
That's a thing from the real 

2358
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:03,480
world too. 
Maybe George is borrowing it, or

2359
01:59:03,480 --> 01:59:07,680
maybe he's not aware, but the 
current dominant theory about 

2360
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:12,600
the formation of our solar 
system is that Earth collided 

2361
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:16,760
with another protoplanet called 
Athea and absorbed it. 

2362
01:59:17,160 --> 01:59:21,360
Like kind of like Maely's the 
monstrous absorbing his twin in 

2363
01:59:21,360 --> 01:59:26,280
the womb 'cause this was the 
solar system's nursery period 

2364
01:59:26,280 --> 01:59:30,160
when the sun existed, or when 
there was just a bunch of matter

2365
01:59:30,160 --> 01:59:33,160
and it was all coalescing and 
still swirling around. 

2366
01:59:33,160 --> 01:59:38,600
And after a long time, those 
coalescing bodies became more 

2367
01:59:38,600 --> 01:59:41,160
solid enough and we're swirling 
around each other and starting 

2368
01:59:41,160 --> 01:59:42,720
to form the orbits they have 
now. 

2369
01:59:43,200 --> 01:59:45,960
And before those orbits were set
and before everything was all, 

2370
01:59:46,200 --> 01:59:50,240
you know, worked itself out the 
way it is now, those large 

2371
01:59:50,400 --> 01:59:52,600
forming, forming bodies could 
hit each other. 

2372
01:59:52,600 --> 01:59:59,240
And that's what again, the great
it's called the the giant impact

2373
01:59:59,240 --> 02:00:01,520
hypothesis. 
So there's a lot like you, you 

2374
02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:04,120
could do a lot of that, a lot 
with that in terms of like an 

2375
02:00:04,120 --> 02:00:06,560
ancient history from a 
supernatural perspective, like 

2376
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:09,440
yes, our planet combined with 
another like ancient celestial 

2377
02:00:09,440 --> 02:00:14,080
bodies merged and from them. 
From that other moon, we got 

2378
02:00:14,080 --> 02:00:16,560
this, and that was added to our 
world. 

2379
02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:18,680
Like maybe that's where the 
magic came from. 

2380
02:00:18,680 --> 02:00:20,560
Maybe that's where some of this 
stuff happened. 

2381
02:00:21,280 --> 02:00:23,000
This happened 4 1/2 billion 
years ago. 

2382
02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:26,720
So if we're imagining that it 
happened on Planet Toast, even 

2383
02:00:26,720 --> 02:00:28,160
the children wouldn't have been 
around for that. 

2384
02:00:28,160 --> 02:00:29,280
They wouldn't have a memory of 
it. 

2385
02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:32,680
But they might be aware of it 
because they can maybe look into

2386
02:00:32,680 --> 02:00:34,360
the past like other green seers 
can. 

2387
02:00:34,360 --> 02:00:36,640
Maybe they could see the events 
through their through their 

2388
02:00:36,640 --> 02:00:38,680
mind, even if they weren't there
to witness it. 

2389
02:00:39,400 --> 02:00:42,680
Yeah, just for time scale, 4 1/2
billion years ago, The oldest 

2390
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:45,160
dinosaurs are about 230 million 
years ago. 

2391
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:49,000
So there's still 4.3 billion 
years to go after that. 

2392
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:50,920
So yeah. 
Yeah, we're talking about a 

2393
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:53,520
quite a different era here. 
Just for fun too. 

2394
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:57,760
Thea was a Greek Titan, sister 
of Hyperion, which, by the way, 

2395
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:00,640
one of the greatest sci-fi 
novels of all time, Hyperion by 

2396
02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:02,920
Dan Simmons. 
And Hyperion. 

2397
02:01:03,600 --> 02:01:08,600
Yep, incest Back in the day even
the planets engaged at incest 

2398
02:01:08,600 --> 02:01:11,120
apparently. 
Cause yeah, Hyperion and Thea 

2399
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:15,440
were married and their children 
were Celine or their child was 

2400
02:01:15,440 --> 02:01:16,800
Celine. 
Who's the moon goddess. 

2401
02:01:17,280 --> 02:01:21,040
You would maybe be more familiar
with the Roman name of Celine, 

2402
02:01:21,040 --> 02:01:25,640
which is Luna, which is one of 
the most popular names for pets 

2403
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:27,320
and children these days. 
That's not a complaint. 

2404
02:01:27,320 --> 02:01:30,840
I think it's a great name, but I
certainly have noticed that I 

2405
02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:35,120
know a lot of cats named Luna, a
lot of them, quite a few good 

2406
02:01:35,120 --> 02:01:39,080
name, I guess, as I said anyway,
folks, this is a great topic 

2407
02:01:39,080 --> 02:01:43,520
that, as you know, cannot be 
fully explored given how much 

2408
02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:46,240
mystery surrounds it. 
It's ancient, it's magical. 

2409
02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:48,520
Those are two things that are 
always rife with mystery and 

2410
02:01:48,800 --> 02:01:52,680
when they're combined that it's 
like synergy. 

2411
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:58,280
It's even more mysterious, but 
also I think just as the not of 

2412
02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:01,440
it's just that more compelling 
too. 

2413
02:02:01,440 --> 02:02:03,360
It's just as much as the mystery
is magnified. 

2414
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:08,240
So is this the the draw of it? 
A base of solid info that George

2415
02:02:08,240 --> 02:02:12,760
has created with all this room 
to imagine on top, It makes it 

2416
02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:14,240
all more entertaining and 
compelling. 

2417
02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:17,760
If every topic was this wide 
open, it wouldn't be as fun. 

2418
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:21,440
So I'm glad that we have it, but
I'm glad we don't have too much 

2419
02:02:21,440 --> 02:02:23,600
of it. 
I think George is given it just 

2420
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:25,080
there. 
It's like seasoning the meal 

2421
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:26,360
properly. 
Too much salt. 

2422
02:02:26,360 --> 02:02:28,520
Yeah, too little salt, too 
bland. 

2423
02:02:29,160 --> 02:02:31,480
Right. 
Though we can never expect full 

2424
02:02:31,480 --> 02:02:33,720
information, especially about 
the supernatural. 

2425
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:37,000
That goes double for this, if 
not more for ancient 

2426
02:02:37,000 --> 02:02:40,200
supernatural. 
But again, Bran, we do have 

2427
02:02:40,200 --> 02:02:44,480
mechanisms to learn more, and 
they might be story related. 

2428
02:02:44,560 --> 02:02:48,120
So George would have a good 
reason to tell us beyond our 

2429
02:02:48,120 --> 02:02:52,600
curiosity. 
And this, as I said, we love to 

2430
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:54,400
focus on characters. 
It's the number one thing we 

2431
02:02:54,400 --> 02:02:57,880
like to do with this show. 
But this kind of episode shows 

2432
02:02:57,880 --> 02:03:01,560
that we can have a really 
awesome topic with very little 

2433
02:03:01,560 --> 02:03:03,640
talk about characters. 
We talked about Bran, Mira, 

2434
02:03:03,640 --> 02:03:06,880
Jojen, Leaf. 
Not a whole lot though, right? 

2435
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:10,880
We talked about characters, 
unspecific people, first men and

2436
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:13,280
all's like groups of people. 
Same with the children. 

2437
02:03:13,760 --> 02:03:16,120
More, more amalgams rather than 
individuals. 

2438
02:03:16,800 --> 02:03:19,720
But it's a really fun exercise 
of the imagination, fertile 

2439
02:03:19,720 --> 02:03:22,920
ground for theorizing. 
Generally speaking, the less we 

2440
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:25,560
can be sure about, the more we 
can be sure magic is involved. 

2441
02:03:26,000 --> 02:03:30,720
But that's both a barrier to our
understanding and a tease for 

2442
02:03:30,720 --> 02:03:33,480
our curiosity. 
Trivia answer. 

2443
02:03:33,480 --> 02:03:36,200
What is the most common volcanic
rock on earth? 

2444
02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:42,000
And probably planet has two 
basalt y'all yes not BA pepper 

2445
02:03:42,200 --> 02:03:46,920
basalt. 90% of all volcanic rock
is basalt on earth. 

2446
02:03:47,640 --> 02:03:51,120
Kaidil Kristina Kay Rather says,
which is why it's weird that 

2447
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:54,040
there aren't more black castles 
because of all these black 

2448
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:55,200
rocks. 
You know, there's so much. 

2449
02:03:55,440 --> 02:03:57,400
There's so much basalt. 
There should be more black 

2450
02:03:57,400 --> 02:03:58,800
castles. 
Good point. 

2451
02:03:58,800 --> 02:04:01,240
Good point. 
Yeah, there are a good number of

2452
02:04:01,240 --> 02:04:03,840
black castles and there's also a
lot of castles we just haven't 

2453
02:04:03,840 --> 02:04:04,720
seen. 
But you're right, there's not. 

2454
02:04:04,720 --> 02:04:07,000
There's a quite a few, not even 
half, probably. 

2455
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:10,520
She also adds strong selective 
pressure works quickly, like the

2456
02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:12,280
moths in the Industrial 
Revolution. 

2457
02:04:13,960 --> 02:04:16,240
That's a good point. 
So what she means by that is the

2458
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:18,600
industrial Revolution created 
just. 

2459
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:23,320
It was a huge uptick in the 
ability for mankind to make 

2460
02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:27,320
textiles like we used machines 
instead of humans sewing by 

2461
02:04:27,320 --> 02:04:29,280
hand. 
Well, well, they're still both 

2462
02:04:29,280 --> 02:04:33,040
going on, but the, the big 
change was the machines and, and

2463
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:36,400
moths all of a sudden were like,
there's just that many more 

2464
02:04:36,400 --> 02:04:39,080
textiles for us to eat. 
This was great for them. 

2465
02:04:39,080 --> 02:04:43,720
The moths were the unintended 
beneficiary of the textile 

2466
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:45,920
industry's relation to the 
industrial revolution. 

2467
02:04:45,920 --> 02:04:47,320
They're like, oh, look at all 
this food. 

2468
02:04:48,240 --> 02:04:51,560
Actually goes further than that 
that I'd like to talk about. 

2469
02:04:51,560 --> 02:04:54,720
Oh, go for it. 
Really what she's talking about 

2470
02:04:54,720 --> 02:05:00,440
is, is the the peppered moth 
specifically, which is how moths

2471
02:05:00,440 --> 02:05:06,520
evolved to be darker because of 
pollution and because all 

2472
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:09,080
because there's so much soot 
that were that was darkening 

2473
02:05:09,080 --> 02:05:12,160
things. 
And so the moths did evolve very

2474
02:05:12,160 --> 02:05:17,320
quickly and change, you know, 
from lighter colored to darker 

2475
02:05:17,320 --> 02:05:20,360
colored. 
And then after pollution was was

2476
02:05:20,360 --> 02:05:23,400
dealt with and controlled a 
little better it the lighter 

2477
02:05:23,400 --> 02:05:25,920
moths became more popular again,
or more common rather. 

2478
02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:29,840
That's a question I have about 
science and what count what. 

2479
02:05:29,840 --> 02:05:34,400
Where are the difference between
adaptation and evolution comes 

2480
02:05:34,400 --> 02:05:35,320
along? 
Because I, I wouldn't have 

2481
02:05:35,320 --> 02:05:37,440
thought of changing color as an 
evolution or anything. 

2482
02:05:37,440 --> 02:05:38,680
I would think of that as an 
adaptation. 

2483
02:05:38,680 --> 02:05:41,120
But I'm, again, I'm not an 
expert here, so just I've 

2484
02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:44,200
learned something. 
Perhaps here it bears further 

2485
02:05:44,200 --> 02:05:46,720
reading. 
Guilty Undertaker says the Thea 

2486
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:48,800
theory is about the Earth moon 
system, not the whole solar 

2487
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:49,560
system. 
Oh, OK. 

2488
02:05:50,000 --> 02:05:53,440
Well, I my description of the 
early planetary bodies forming 

2489
02:05:53,440 --> 02:05:54,760
in the solar system is still 
accurate. 

2490
02:05:54,760 --> 02:05:55,760
But yeah, yeah, I guess you're 
right. 

2491
02:05:55,760 --> 02:05:59,760
Technically speaking, it's just 
the Earth moon situation, not 

2492
02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:03,120
Thea wouldn't have had impact 
elsewhere because it, well, it 

2493
02:06:03,120 --> 02:06:05,360
only combined with Earth. 
I think that's what you mean by 

2494
02:06:05,360 --> 02:06:06,640
that. 
Anyway, yes, thanks for the 

2495
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:09,040
clarification. 
The pole did the children of the

2496
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:13,240
forest and the first men work 
together to flood the neck. 52% 

2497
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:17,920
of you said children only 39% 
said yeah, both. 

2498
02:06:18,720 --> 02:06:23,120
So most of you all think it was 
children only or or both. 8% of 

2499
02:06:23,120 --> 02:06:26,600
you thought neither and only 1% 
think first men only. 

2500
02:06:26,640 --> 02:06:30,760
Which honestly that's roughly 
how I would assign the 

2501
02:06:30,760 --> 02:06:32,920
percentages too. 
I think children only is the 

2502
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:36,080
most likely, but I'm very open 
to children and first men 

2503
02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:37,600
together. 
Children. 

2504
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:40,240
I'm a little more open to first 
men only than 1%. 

2505
02:06:40,240 --> 02:06:42,840
I think because they would they 
would have a reason to keep the 

2506
02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:46,480
end alls back too. 
But they're also less likely to 

2507
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:49,200
have the ability to cast big 
spells like that. 

2508
02:06:49,200 --> 02:06:51,080
So I understand why that number 
is very low. 

2509
02:06:51,440 --> 02:06:53,640
Anyway, thank you all for 
participating in the poll. 

2510
02:06:53,640 --> 02:06:57,920
Thank you all for participating 
in the episode, for being here. 

2511
02:06:57,920 --> 02:07:00,640
And actually, I see now that 
there's more comments. 

2512
02:07:01,080 --> 02:07:03,400
Christina Kay says I think the 
flooding was incidental and 

2513
02:07:03,400 --> 02:07:05,040
relating to the breaking of the 
arm of Dorm. 

2514
02:07:05,440 --> 02:07:06,040
Cool. 
OK. 

2515
02:07:06,040 --> 02:07:09,560
So yeah, so whether there was a 
magical push behind that or not,

2516
02:07:09,560 --> 02:07:12,880
the main thing was natural, 
which I can certainly get behind

2517
02:07:12,880 --> 02:07:14,960
that idea. 
Cannibal the Dragon says, I 

2518
02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:17,280
think the children broke the 
hammer of the waters to stop the

2519
02:07:17,280 --> 02:07:19,800
White Walkers getting to S S not
to stop the First Men. 

2520
02:07:21,520 --> 02:07:23,040
Hadn't thought of that. 
I love it. 

2521
02:07:23,040 --> 02:07:26,920
That's a great idea. 
They were like, it's our fault 

2522
02:07:26,920 --> 02:07:29,080
we created these. 
We want them to destroy the 

2523
02:07:29,080 --> 02:07:32,040
humans here, only we don't want 
them to go over there. 

2524
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:34,320
We don't have we don't care 
about them messing with Essos. 

2525
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:36,680
So there's a lot of reasons why 
they wouldn't want them to cross

2526
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:38,840
to Essos. 
That's a very good idea. 

2527
02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:40,800
I like that a lot. 
I'm a little disappointed in 

2528
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:43,280
myself for not thinking of it. 
It's a good job Cannibal the 

2529
02:07:43,280 --> 02:07:47,440
dragon pulled pork sandwich says
the Storrega slide, which was a 

2530
02:07:47,440 --> 02:07:51,440
huge landslide in North Atlantic
drowned Doggerland in the real 

2531
02:07:51,440 --> 02:07:54,920
world. 
And the the the Nick the neck 

2532
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:56,720
does seem to be in a very low 
lying area. 

2533
02:07:56,720 --> 02:07:58,440
So a huge tsunami is very 
plausible. 

2534
02:07:58,560 --> 02:08:00,520
Yeah. 
Doggerland used to connect 

2535
02:08:00,520 --> 02:08:03,240
England to Europe. 
It's it's it's it's a it was a 

2536
02:08:03,240 --> 02:08:07,960
continent kind of it's sort of 
the inspiration to for Valerian,

2537
02:08:08,400 --> 02:08:11,320
the continent that sank in Lord 
of the Rings and first age. 

2538
02:08:11,320 --> 02:08:13,640
I think it sank maybe the second
age, definitely not the third. 

2539
02:08:13,880 --> 02:08:17,200
I think the first age. 
And so I think that's where 

2540
02:08:17,360 --> 02:08:20,080
Tolkien was inspired for 
Doggerland by Doggerland. 

2541
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,080
And George is certainly aware of
Doggerland. 

2542
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:25,800
I would I would think. 
And yeah, the neck does seem to 

2543
02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:27,920
be low lying area. 
That would be why it flooded and

2544
02:08:27,920 --> 02:08:32,640
the why like the twins didn't 
and why north of Ocalan didn't 

2545
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:36,040
because the area was lower land 
between. 

2546
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:39,120
So yeah, that's cool. 
Thank you for that comment. 

2547
02:08:39,120 --> 02:08:40,840
Pulled Porg and everybody else 
who commented. 

2548
02:08:40,840 --> 02:08:42,360
These were some really good 
comments today. 

2549
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:45,400
Episodes that relate to this 
one. 

2550
02:08:45,400 --> 02:08:48,760
We had an episode on ancient 
Dorn that we had Elio Garcia 

2551
02:08:48,760 --> 02:08:50,760
Junior as a guest for that was 
very fun. 

2552
02:08:50,960 --> 02:08:52,720
We have an episode on Chronic 
Men in the Neck. 

2553
02:08:52,920 --> 02:08:56,120
We have an episode on the pact. 
We have an episode on the great 

2554
02:08:56,120 --> 02:09:00,480
empire, the Dawn, which gets 
into the ancient civilizations 

2555
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:03,040
that may have been involved in 
some of this old stuff and may 

2556
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:04,760
have dealt with the children in 
a different way. 

2557
02:09:05,040 --> 02:09:09,000
We have our series on the Roinar
in Nymeria, Mother Roin. 

2558
02:09:09,000 --> 02:09:12,200
We mentioned the the them being 
refugees fleeing from the 

2559
02:09:12,200 --> 02:09:14,480
Valyrians. 
So we've got that all the 

2560
02:09:14,480 --> 02:09:15,840
different places that they 
lived. 

2561
02:09:15,840 --> 02:09:19,400
Three-part episode and our 
episodes on House Blackwood and 

2562
02:09:19,400 --> 02:09:21,760
House Manderley have some 
relationship here as well 

2563
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:27,240
because both House Blackwood and
House Manderley moved probably 

2564
02:09:27,240 --> 02:09:28,960
from their original founding 
locations. 

2565
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:33,080
House manually moved to the 
north and House Blackwood moved 

2566
02:09:33,080 --> 02:09:34,920
from the north. 
Of the two, it's probably more 

2567
02:09:34,920 --> 02:09:38,200
relevant than House Blackwood 
because House Blackwood may have

2568
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:40,920
been kings of the Wolfswood. 
The Wolfswood may have been 

2569
02:09:40,920 --> 02:09:43,960
called the Blackwood. 
So that is very related to this.

2570
02:09:44,560 --> 02:09:47,880
So check those out or check out 
some of the rest of our catalog.

2571
02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:50,400
We sure do have a big one. 
That's what she said. 

2572
02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:55,480
Until next time. 
Thanks to Nina for her great 

2573
02:09:55,480 --> 02:09:57,440
takes. 
We she and I specifically talked

2574
02:09:57,440 --> 02:09:59,280
about the earthquake thing, 
among other things. 

2575
02:09:59,560 --> 02:10:02,400
She's hard at work on some 
Targaryen episodes for us to do 

2576
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:04,200
during Duncan Egg season and 
around then. 

2577
02:10:04,360 --> 02:10:07,120
Excited for that. 
Thanks to Joey Townsend for our 

2578
02:10:07,120 --> 02:10:09,080
music. 
Thanks to Michael Klarfeld for 

2579
02:10:09,080 --> 02:10:11,600
our videos. 
Don't forget to check out our 

2580
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:16,400
website and engage with whatever
aspects there are most suited 

2581
02:10:16,400 --> 02:10:18,040
for you. 
It'll be helping us out in 

2582
02:10:18,040 --> 02:10:21,280
whatever way you do that. 
And on behalf of Ashea, I'm 

2583
02:10:21,280 --> 02:10:24,040
Aziz. 
We'll see you next time, Valar 

2584
02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:24,920
Riritas.