1
00:00:10,490 --> 00:00:14,650
All right, welcome to the Good 
Girls podcast where we talk 

2
00:00:14,650 --> 00:00:19,890
about confident men and when is 
it sexy, when is it toxic and 

3
00:00:19,890 --> 00:00:22,690
what pickup tricks would work on
UK. 

4
00:00:22,730 --> 00:00:25,850
Probably all of them, but I can 
act like I'm pickier for the 

5
00:00:25,850 --> 00:00:29,290
sake of this exercise. 
And this is a genuine curiosity 

6
00:00:29,290 --> 00:00:31,130
1 and I want our listeners to 
play along. 

7
00:00:31,370 --> 00:00:34,570
So we're going to go back to 
like the original pickup artist 

8
00:00:34,570 --> 00:00:37,880
material from The Game by Neil 
Strauss. 

9
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,040
So this is especially a lot of 
this content comes from his 

10
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:47,200
pickup artistry teacher guru. 
They're called gurus. 

11
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,280
So their primary audience that 
they're clearly trying to pick 

12
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:56,360
up is like early 2020 somethings
in a club in LA or like even 

13
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,520
younger sometimes. 
So I need you, OK, to put 

14
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,640
yourself in the shoes of you out
on the town trying to meet guys 

15
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,320
in like your earliest 20s. 
Early to mid 20s let's not give 

16
00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:13,240
me you know better credit when 
we're at 1022 you. 

17
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,160
Were not at the club when you 
were 21 OK all right so we're 

18
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,880
going to try some of these these
tactics on you. 

19
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,920
How do you feel like nagging 
would hit for you? 

20
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,440
And apparently the way that 
you're supposed to do this is if

21
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,920
you're doing it right, you're 
not just like totally trashing 

22
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,120
on the woman, but you're just 
supposed to make her feel like a

23
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,960
little bit uncertain about 
herself so that she's more 

24
00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:39,360
attracted to you. 
Apparently one of the tips from 

25
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,560
the book was to compliment a 
woman's dress, but then say that

26
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,360
you think you saw somebody else 
at the club wearing the same 

27
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:46,960
dress. 
Which I'd be like, cute. 

28
00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:49,840
We should be friends. 
I also saw that it's like the 

29
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,720
equivalent of blowing your nose 
in the middle of a conversation 

30
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,880
with somebody. 
It's not necessarily rude, 

31
00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,600
you're allowed to do it, but it 
would indicate to that person 

32
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,320
that you're not trying to woo 
them during this time. 

33
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,400
Yeah, I'm not supposed to be 
part of it, right? 

34
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,280
So. 
I have different opinions for 

35
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,120
this. 
I think the underlying idea of 

36
00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,640
nagging where you make the women
feel like, oh, I'm going to have

37
00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:17,280
to like work harder for him to 
see me as sexy. 

38
00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:21,280
That annoys me. 
But why I think that it might 

39
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,920
actually work and would actually
work on me is for a different 

40
00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:28,720
reason where I think that would 
tell me, oh, this guy is not 

41
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,880
trying to hit on me. 
This isn't a high stakes 

42
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,880
situation. 
And so I'm going to relax and 

43
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,760
have a funny conversation with 
him because we're not going to 

44
00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,000
hook up. 
You know, he thinks that my 

45
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,840
dress is from Target or he 
thinks that my nails should 

46
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:44,800
have, you know, been done before
this. 

47
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,800
He blew his nose in front of me 
and we're going to have a good 

48
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,560
time and. 
I think some of these it's like 

49
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,840
at their court like really 
depends on kind of like which 

50
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,960
way you go with them. 
Like I could just see it to kind

51
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,280
of just try to lower the stakes.
And it seems like if you are 

52
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,600
trying to be charitable about 
some of this pickup artist 

53
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,120
advice, you could take it in a 
way that's just like, if you're 

54
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,080
somebody who has high anxiety 
about social interaction, this 

55
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,680
is just supposed to lower the 
stakes a little bit so that you 

56
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,320
can be normal. 
So if that's where this is 

57
00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,680
entering the conversation is to 
just kind of try to be like, oh,

58
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:15,840
I'm going to be a little 
disarming. 

59
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,520
Like maybe I'm not trying to 
just like find somebody to hook 

60
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,360
up with tonight Then like that 
could be OK if you have 

61
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,240
something that's like a 
genuinely nice personality 

62
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,400
underneath that this allows the 
person to. 

63
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,040
Get to you, right, The guys and 
the woman, if you're starting 

64
00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,720
not around like a man, like you 
look hot tonight. 

65
00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,520
I want to, you know, take you on
the dance floor. 

66
00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,760
But instead you're kind of 
making a joke about how like 

67
00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:41,640
some part of the outfit is 
goofy. 

68
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,120
Then as long as the woman takes 
it right and has high self 

69
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,920
esteem and the guy's not too 
mean about it. 

70
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,320
And I don't know, sticking more 
with like the blowing the nose 

71
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,120
idea then maybe again disarms 
them and. 

72
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,040
Yeah, I agree. 
If a man just walked up to me in

73
00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,840
a situation and it was like, 
wow, you are so hot and that 

74
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,000
dress looks really good on you 
and it will look even better on 

75
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,360
my floor. 
I would just be like gross Next 

76
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,160
okay, peacocking. 
So this is when they didn't 

77
00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,800
learn until I started reading 
about this stuff and I was like,

78
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,640
doubtful. 
So this is like you wear 

79
00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,120
something that is like stands 
out and is unusual looking so 

80
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,400
that it draws the eye. 
It can like draw a comment. 

81
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,000
You're wearing like purple 
metallic sunglasses and you 

82
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,560
have, you know, women are going 
to come up to you and be like, 

83
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,200
what? 
What are you wearing? 

84
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,600
Unfortunately, the person that 
this comes from mystery. 

85
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,800
He looks like an amateur 
magician. 

86
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,480
Very peacocky. 
Yeah, he has. 

87
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,560
An age-old so he's still on 
Instagram. 

88
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,680
I think it's Ask mystery as his 
handle if you want to check him 

89
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,120
out. 
So now he's also like aging and 

90
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,640
looks like an amateur magician, 
so he'll. 

91
00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,440
Probably get in laid because 
he's mastered the tricks. 

92
00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,320
Probably. 
But is he happy with his life? 

93
00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,360
Actually, there is a whole thing
about apparently in the book the

94
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,280
game, like he's kind of talking,
documenting that mystery is kind

95
00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,240
of having a breakdown in the 
book a little bit because he's a

96
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,920
bit of a sociopath and seems 
like he just came from an 

97
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,680
abusive background and is doing 
all this like peacocking to just

98
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,080
fill the. 
Void of his soul. 

99
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,440
Yeah, for sure. 
Anyway, so I am. 

100
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,160
I'm showing Kay right now a 
picture of mystery in in his 

101
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,120
prime. 
He is wearing like a fur what I 

102
00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,440
would say you would wear for a 
pimp hat costume in 2001 and. 

103
00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,000
You can look at you can Google. 
Like a Fred Durst soul patch 

104
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,520
situation and some earrings, 
soul patch eyeliner, a 

105
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,200
heart-shaped Locket, I think a 
feather boa. 

106
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,640
All right, Kay, this man walks 
up to you in the club and has 

107
00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:43,680
the smoothest pick up line. 
Your reaction. 

108
00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,840
So if that person as dressed the
little soul patch would just 

109
00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,360
make it that the two of us were 
not probably meant for each 

110
00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,480
other, but both ways, you know, 
like he probably wasn't going to

111
00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,680
approach me and I wasn't going 
to go home with him. 

112
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,040
I'm trying to remember because I
think I was attracted to some 

113
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,040
ugly facial hair in the in the 
early knots, but I'm, I don't 

114
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,320
even know like soul. 
Patches. 

115
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,400
It goes together with like 
string instruments. 

116
00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:11,800
Excuse me, I did not say I like 
soul patches, I'm just saying I 

117
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,400
had more questionable thoughts 
due to Backstreet Boys on facial

118
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,440
hair. 
OK, that's fair that this is 

119
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,800
around Backstreet Boys when they
definitely did have soul 

120
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,280
patches. 
Now, how I was seeing it was I 

121
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,160
kind of already switched it 
through a guy who I would be 

122
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,520
attracted to. 
And I saw it more as like, 

123
00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,800
you're going to a baseball game 
and the person has like the 

124
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,840
Hawaiian shirt version of what 
the team's logo is. 

125
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,480
Just something that's enough to 
remark on. 

126
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,040
And that's how I interpreted 
peacocking that yes, there's 

127
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,960
like the extreme version of guys
who are in really nice pattern 

128
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,200
suits. 
I would say Travis, Kelsey, Joe 

129
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,520
Burrow tend to wear some more 
extravagant cloth clothing items

130
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,200
than ones that you would see on,
you know, guys who are trying to

131
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,160
dress in ways just to blend in 
with other guys. 

132
00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,600
Probably. 
That's probably just not my 

133
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,360
style, and there's nothing 
against either of them. 

134
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,480
I'm not their style either, so. 
It's true. 

135
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,280
I think it is a marker of 
confidence. 

136
00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,200
So if we're talking about 
confidence on this episode, 

137
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,600
yeah, the the more modern 
example is like going to a work 

138
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,680
Christmas party and there's 
always the guy that has like the

139
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,120
tipsy elves suit on that's like 
this, you know, candy cane print

140
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,400
suit while everybody else is 
still wearing normal party 

141
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,640
clothes. 
So I'm like, that's a marker of 

142
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,480
confidence. 
But to me, that's also like a 

143
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,920
particular like social marker of
like you're a frat boy and you 

144
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,280
haven't learned how to like go 
to a tailor and get like, 

145
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,680
because you can stand out by 
being well dressed without 

146
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,560
wearing a tips yellow Santa 
Claus suit. 

147
00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,000
And so for me, I want a guy who 
stands out by having like a very

148
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,600
well tailored suit that maybe 
has like a color that's a little

149
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,480
bit more bold, but without going
full. 

150
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,600
I'm a frat boy who doesn't know 
how to go to a tailor. 

151
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,840
I do not put that much energy 
into how I dress. 

152
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,400
I wish I put more energy into 
it. 

153
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,440
I think that being with a guy 
who put more energy and thought 

154
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,760
into like very extravagant 
fashion choices would disarm me.

155
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,760
And I don't know, it would be 
something to get used to. 

156
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,240
I think that having one piece 
that sticks out a bit, whether 

157
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,560
it's like a funny tie or a funny
hat, which is a way to Peacock, 

158
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,160
would, you know, help again, 
lighten the mood and be a 

159
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,040
conversation starter. 
I do try to help my husband with

160
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,840
this. 
He works in very Gray suits kind

161
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,440
of line of work. 
I have gotten him some like 

162
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,880
whimsical socks because when you
sit down you can see the socks 

163
00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,360
and it's just enough to like 
start a little conversation. 

164
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,080
It shows a little bit about your
hobbies and interests of like 

165
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,560
what kinds of things are on your
socks. 

166
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,600
And it's really about as intense
of peacocking as you can do in 

167
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,559
professional industry. 
Also, I guess he's not trying to

168
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,039
get anybody to have sex with 
him, but I think like. 

169
00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:42,400
How do you know? 
Yeah. 

170
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:48,080
I guess I maybe, but I do think 
that this is some of what I was 

171
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,240
realizing as I was reading 
content for this week's episode 

172
00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,040
is a lot of it is just like 
we're all seeking genuine human 

173
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,880
connection. 
And I feel like sometimes we're 

174
00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,480
men are kind of losing this or 
when we hear about the male 

175
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,600
loneliness epidemic is because 
they're putting so much single 

176
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,320
minded interest on that 
connection being like a, a 

177
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,320
partnered relationship, whether 
that's like a one night stand or

178
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,560
like marriage or anything in 
between that that's like much 

179
00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:16,600
more of a single minded focus of
men and that they put much more 

180
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,160
on that. 
Whereas women are like they're 

181
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,560
they're even if they are seeking
or have a romantic relationship,

182
00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:24,440
it's not their source of 
everything. 

183
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,440
Yeah. 
And actually the follow up, and 

184
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,840
I know I don't know much about 
Neil Strauss. 

185
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,040
I don't have a opinion on him as
a person, but I do know that the

186
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,200
follow up to the Game was 
actually Rules of the Game and 

187
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,680
it really was much more about 
men building their 

188
00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:41,400
self-confidence in approaching 
people and starting 

189
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,880
conversations. 
There were things in it like, 

190
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,440
you know, every single day make 
a habit to start up a 

191
00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,720
conversation with somebody new. 
And it wasn't saying, you know, 

192
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,760
exclusively woman, it was saying
men, women, anybody at your 

193
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,120
office just to get into the 
habit that when you approach 

194
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,680
somebody and start a 
conversation, you know, 99% of 

195
00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:02,200
the time people are probably 
going to be receptive and smile 

196
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,040
back at you. 
And whatever you said, they 

197
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,600
found a way to respond off of. 
Yeah, I'm much more. 

198
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,320
I'm much more here for that kind
of advice from Neil Strauss than

199
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,320
like a description of the 
threesome that he had using the 

200
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,400
mysteries tactics for getting 
with borderline underage women. 

201
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,760
OK, how about time pressure? 
So give the idea that like the 

202
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,600
woman has to prove herself and 
you only have a short amount of 

203
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,160
time to attract. 
The Miller to making I thought 

204
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,440
that this would make me more 
relaxed because I wouldn't feel 

205
00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,920
like, oh, I actually was just on
my way to the bathroom or I was 

206
00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,520
just grabbing a drink for my 
friend and I really want to get 

207
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,560
back there. 
And now I'm stuck in this 

208
00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:43,600
conversation with a guy who, you
know, might be cute, but I 

209
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,360
really had in a certain agenda 
in mind that if he said I only 

210
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,320
have one minute, but I wanted to
ask you this, I'd be like, Oh, 

211
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,400
well, if he only has a minute. 
I feel like if he only if he 

212
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,920
says he only has a minute and 
then he wants to do something to

213
00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,040
like demonstrate that he is 
attractive, instead of like, I 

214
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,400
have only one minute to 
demonstrate to me why you're 

215
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,040
attractive. 
I'd be like fine. 

216
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,800
Like I agree, like I'd be like, 
OK, fine. 

217
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,320
To give the the the tip credit, 
I don't think that they were 

218
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,800
saying they were going to 
directly tell the woman you have

219
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,680
one minute to prove your 
worthiness. 

220
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,320
I'm Simon Cowell. 
You're going to, you know, ask a

221
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,400
question where you then had a 
chance to have your. 

222
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,160
Personality as somebody who in 
like small talk kind of 

223
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,200
scenarios is very bad at like 
extricating myself from like a 

224
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,360
conversation I no longer want to
be in and then like until. 

225
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,160
Would make you feel relaxed. 
Yeah, I do appreciate that. 

226
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,600
They're like, OK, this is like 
going to end shortly, I guess, 

227
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,720
if you actually stuck to it. 
Because I feel like if you tried

228
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,480
to disarm a woman by saying you 
only have a minute, but then 

229
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,480
you're like, oh, this 
conversation is going well and 

230
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,440
then you like keep going forever
then. 

231
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,920
You have the option, you know, 
actually I have to get back to 

232
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,800
my friends now because I told 
him I'd be back. 

233
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,760
But you know, do you mind if I 
stop by later on? 

234
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,680
I don't know. 
All the situations seem to 

235
00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,160
happen around bars, but we can 
make them anywhere, you know, 

236
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,680
they can be bowling, they can be
the knitting club. 

237
00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:03,480
You know, Gen. 
Z doesn't drink anymore and I 

238
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,400
feel like that's probably 
there's less dating, but there's

239
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,680
probably also it seemed like a 
lot of the stuff in this like 

240
00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:14,560
pick up artist thing was vaguely
dependent on women being like 

241
00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,240
somewhat or very intoxicated. 
So I'm also kind of happy for 

242
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,000
this generation that is making 
fewer poor life choices because 

243
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,440
there's less alcohol involved, 
that maybe they're dating less, 

244
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,880
but they're probably also 
wasting less time on like 

245
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,080
situations that I feel like all 
of us had in like, college 

246
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:36,200
where, you know, it wasn't full 
on anything, but you were just 

247
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,360
kind of like, you felt icky 
about it the next day. 

248
00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,640
And you're like, I wouldn't have
given that guy the time of day 

249
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,760
if I had been sober. 
Lots of mornings spent feeling 

250
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,000
icky about the previous nights 
and then the person texting to 

251
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,320
follow up and being like oh. 
Yeah, I'm like, I feel like 

252
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,680
taking alcohol out of the 
situation a bit more might 

253
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,240
actually be helpful. 
All right, this was 1 I had 

254
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,200
never heard of, but I was 
reading a guy's blog about, 

255
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,240
like, he was summarizing things 
that he had gotten from 

256
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,360
different pickup artists. 
So I'm not sure if this one's in

257
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,600
the game or he's gotten it from 
later writers. 

258
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,280
It just seems, again, sometimes 
this is just like breaking down 

259
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,560
very basic stuff for people who 
might be socially a little bit 

260
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,600
anxious or maybe inept. 
But it's called keno escalation.

261
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,200
Have you heard of this one 
before, Kay? 

262
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:24,000
I saw that it's like how you can
slowly increase your touches and

263
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,360
start off. 
And like start with a light 

264
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,120
touch, like just a like non 
invasive a tap on the arm and 

265
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,040
like professionally acceptable 
kind of stuff maybe and into 

266
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,560
like gradually escalating it 
like touching her more. 

267
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,720
This. 
Seems not a touching person, so 

268
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,800
I don't. 
Do you feel like, and maybe this

269
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,480
is just because I have had like 
some people that don't seem to 

270
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,160
like understand where the 
boundaries are. 

271
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,800
And if if you are somebody who 
is socially awkward and you had 

272
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,360
to have this explained to you, 
then you may not be the type of 

273
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:55,840
person who's going to pick up on
like. 

274
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,960
What's the? 
Appropriate way, yeah. 

275
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,120
I had like a male supervisor 
once that had this habit of like

276
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,680
touching women more and it was 
in a totally non sexual way. 

277
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,680
Like he he read very like a 
sexually. 

278
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,000
I don't know what he was like at
all, but I think that in some 

279
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,040
like white men's management 
seminar somewhere he had been 

280
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,120
told that like, oh, women are 
more like emotional and connect 

281
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,640
more through touch. 
So like if you're connecting 

282
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,960
with a female colleague, then 
like give her a little pat on 

283
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,560
the shoulder or something. 
It totally read as creepy 

284
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,400
though, of course. 
And I like talk to somebody at 

285
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,760
HR who like kind of had this 
conversation with him on my 

286
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,200
behalf since he was senior to 
me. 

287
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,480
But we were like, if this is 
just a real easy one for you 

288
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,800
men, cuz you can just like not 
touch women at all. 

289
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,120
Like if you're like, what is the
appropriate amount to touch a 

290
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,520
woman? 
That they don't know it makes us

291
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,600
feel great. 
Yeah, the the zero is always a 

292
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:46,920
good answer. 
So I don't know. 

293
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,200
Yeah, this one reads to me as a 
little bit creepy, Especially if

294
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,560
you're not, if you're somebody 
who's going to pick up artists. 

295
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,400
For writing things on it you. 
Don't have good instincts, so 

296
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,960
you should probably not try 
this. 

297
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,880
So my partner told me that 
something that he had read once 

298
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,400
and anybody who's outside of 
United States would laugh at 

299
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,200
this because they'd be like, 
well, yes, this is just what we 

300
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,760
do. 
But he's like when you're 

301
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,440
introduced to a girl who you 
find attractive, you kiss him on

302
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,560
the cheek. 
It's like 1. 

303
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,880
You introduces your touch to 
them and then they can decide if

304
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,320
they like it or not. 
But then there were also kind of

305
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,040
caught off guard. 
And then you do it again when 

306
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,520
you say goodbye to them. 
And I don't know that again just

307
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,600
made me think like, oh, but I 
would probably already be in the

308
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,400
mindset of like, am I doing this
wrong? 

309
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,640
Am I now supposed to kiss them 
on the cheek bag? 

310
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,400
I do. 
Agree, I think that it would 

311
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,160
just throw me off but not in a 
good way. 

312
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,320
I would just be like wait, is 
this guy European? 

313
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,880
Like if the guy was European or 
South American or whatever, like

314
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,120
I wouldn't think anything of it,
but like if it was just like a 

315
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,680
regular American dude, I'd be 
like, what am I missing here? 

316
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,120
I think I'd be confused by it, 
but I would just be like this is

317
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,120
odd. 
It made me farther laugh because

318
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,720
I round back and I remembered my
first date with my partner where

319
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,480
he went to try to kiss me but I 
didn't know what was going on 

320
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,080
and we were in the back of an 
Uber. 

321
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,680
So I like tried to turn away and
it ended up with him kissing my 

322
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,120
forehead and I'm all like he was
probably trying to kiss my 

323
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,800
cheeks. 
I've got some situations like 

324
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,320
that too. 
Or even just like one of you 

325
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,080
goes in for a hug and one of you
goes in for a handshake and then

326
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,800
you like awkwardly bump into 
each other and you're like, I do

327
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,360
like that about European 
culture, like a lot of other 

328
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,680
countries besides the US where 
there's very like define like. 

329
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,640
And then you even have this like
if you're, you know, traveling 

330
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,240
there for the first time that 
they're like O2 women always 

331
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,120
greet each other with a kiss. 
Like a woman and a man always 

332
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,200
greet each other with a kiss 
like men, men, you know, that 

333
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,440
there's just like predefined 
things. 

334
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,160
And in the US, it's just like, 
do we do a handshake? 

335
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,960
Like then you have the people 
who just be like, I'm a hugger 

336
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,000
and then they just go for it. 
But I do appreciate them 

337
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,760
specifying that they're about to
go in for a hug, even if I am 

338
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,040
not a hugger. 
I also feel like this keno 

339
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,280
escalation one kind of sounds 
like advice that they give you 

340
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,200
about like taming a horse. 
Some other kind of like spirited

341
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,240
animals. 
Offer like a little lump of 

342
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,599
sugar in your hand and approach 
slowly. 

343
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:18,000
Okay, last one is push and pull.
So you like you're positive and 

344
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,920
you compliment them and then you
like you're kind of like you go 

345
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,400
hot cold. 
So you're like oh, don't get too

346
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,400
cocky like I'm not that. 
And and like you, keep the other

347
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,680
person uncertain of where they 
stand with you. 

348
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,160
I don't know if any woman would 
be able to follow like a guy 

349
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,520
intentionally trying to push and
pull them. 

350
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,800
Like, I don't think people would
probably be like, I probably 

351
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,080
just didn't hear him right? 
Like I don't think that 

352
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,160
somebody's like, oh, I'm like in
France right now. 

353
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,840
Like they're keeping me 
guessing. 

354
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,360
I think they're probably just be
like, oh, they probably said 

355
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:52,640
something nice because they're 
polite. 

356
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,400
And now they said something kind
of annoying. 

357
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,080
And so maybe that's who they 
are, or they said something 

358
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,400
really nice. 
So they're nice. 

359
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,480
And when they said something 
that came off as mean, they 

360
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,600
probably didn't realize that. 
I don't think that anybody's 

361
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,680
like, oh, what is this push, 
pull? 

362
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,960
So intrigued. 
Yeah, I feel like mostly that 

363
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,080
would come across to me as a red
flag. 

364
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,440
A guy doing this is like that 
you're emotionally unstable or 

365
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,040
emotionally unavailable. 
I'm not like, oh, I'm like 

366
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,400
intrigued because I don't know 
where I stand with him and I, I 

367
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,360
have to try to pull him in and 
I'm like, maybe especially if 

368
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,880
you are like as doing it as like
expertly and seamlessly as 

369
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,840
mystery himself. 
And I'm just wondering, like, if

370
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,520
you give some guy who feels 
awkward approaching woman just 

371
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,160
any sort of list of things to 
talk about with them, and that 

372
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,000
guy feels like, OK, now I have 
to say something. 

373
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,520
That's this. 
You're still keeping the 

374
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,600
conversation going. 
I think the guy is still making 

375
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:46,280
it. 
I don't know. 

376
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,480
I just wonder how many, how many
women out there are really like 

377
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,120
they're receptive to being 
talked to by a. 

378
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,640
Person, I think it's like not 
that complicated and they do 

379
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,040
understand the need for 
something that is maybe just a 

380
00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,400
bit of an icebreaker that gives 
you something more original to 

381
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,760
start the conversation with or 
to give you like a bit of like a

382
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,200
false sense of like a fake it 
till you make it. 

383
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,200
Not like false confidence, but 
like we all sometimes need to 

384
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:10,640
fake it till we make it a little
bit. 

385
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,040
So, you know, things that can do
that without trying to come 

386
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,960
across as an emotionally 
unstable asshole or make the 

387
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,000
other person feel unstable to 
promote your own self in there 

388
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,400
in there. 
So you don't have this one on 

389
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,760
the list of pick up things. 
And so I want to ask you which 

390
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,880
is that what my partner said who
had read this book and used some

391
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,800
of the different strategies, 
some of them he said you were 

392
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,240
not worth even. 
I would have loved to see him 

393
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,680
and at the top of his pick up 
game picking you up. 

394
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,360
He definitely did not have much 
of A dating life. 

395
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,960
So does not, you know, bode well
for the book's actual success. 

396
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,920
But he did say that that what 
felt right and good when he read

397
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,520
it was the idea that as soon as 
you go into a social situation 

398
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,160
where you're with a group of 
guys and they're then you should

399
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,880
go immediately to another group 
of women who seem largely, you 

400
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,680
know, single. 
Like they're just there with 

401
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,880
only their own sex. 
And start talking to them, not 

402
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,400
to hit on them, not to, but 
almost just to like combine 

403
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,640
groups in a way so that that 
way. 

404
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,400
Dating like in high school? 
Like that, would the other woman

405
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,280
at the bar see them as more 
comfortable and approachable and

406
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,280
also potentially desirable? 
Like, they don't know, oh, maybe

407
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,480
this one guy's dating that girl,
but maybe the friend single. 

408
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,280
Yeah, we can ask the girl. 
She's like, he's cool, but, you 

409
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,040
know, they're all smiling and 
talking to them. 

410
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,680
It makes you, like, look more 
desirable and confident and like

411
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,120
you're someone who knows how to 
talk to women. 

412
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:37,360
I don't know. 
Yeah. 

413
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,440
He's going to have a high 
success rate that. 

414
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,440
Is, I mean, I feel like also 
again, just if like a lot of 

415
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,160
these pick up tactics seem like 
there is much for getting rid of

416
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,360
the man's anxiety or, you know, 
like giving him like a bit of 

417
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:52,960
that confidence so that he can 
be. 

418
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,320
And, and then I think ideally 
that you can be your authentic 

419
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,240
self. 
And that underneath that anxiety

420
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,080
is somebody who's like genuinely
very kind and interested in a, a

421
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,880
relationship with a woman of, of
whatever length. 

422
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,440
So I guess that's like what a 
lot of these things get to. 

423
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,240
And is it, is it just like 
you're using it to try to just 

424
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,160
dispel a little bit of your 
initial anxiety? 

425
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,040
Because I think that we all need
that. 

426
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,560
I think that these things aren't
written as and this will dispel 

427
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,720
your like, you know, 
insecurities and anxieties about

428
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,520
approaching women. 
But I think that what they're 

429
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,520
actually doing is that. 
Because when you go into a bar 

430
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,280
and you approach women, not with
the goal in your mind that you 

431
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,680
know, I'm going to hit on one of
these specific women, but I'm 

432
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,120
just going to start a 
conversation, then you realize 

433
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,680
how how easy it is and that 
everybody's having a good time. 

434
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,680
They're like, humans are 
naturally social people. 

435
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,680
If you walk up to start a 
conversation like people are 

436
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,320
most likely going to be 
receptive. 

437
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,280
Yeah, yeah. 
And I think that, you know, 

438
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,040
there's just so much that's 
gotten heaped on this idea, 

439
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,160
especially like men that get 
frustrated about this. 

440
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,760
And then they're sort of there's
so many forums for them to just 

441
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,400
kind of like continue 
circulating around in an echo 

442
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,440
chamber Reddit or some places 
that are even a little bit more 

443
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,520
a little bit darker than Reddit.
That you're just like 

444
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,640
reinforcing this idea that, 
yeah, that that first of all, 

445
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,360
that you're not so much like 
seeking authentic connections 

446
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:18,880
with other humans of like 
whatever nature, but that like 

447
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,640
solely you are only interacting 
with women to like go get as 

448
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,480
much pussy as possible. 
And I do think that like, one of

449
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,280
the reasons that you don't see 
like women complaining about 

450
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,680
this as much is because there 
are more women. 

451
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,440
I mean, obviously they are also 
seeking romantic partners. 

452
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,720
They're also like corny and 
looking for one night stands, 

453
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,800
but they are looking for a lot 
of a lot of maybe diversity. 

454
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,440
And that you don't have this 
idea of I see men posting on 

455
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,160
Reddit things like, oh, you 
know, I just think that like, I 

456
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,800
talked to all these women and 
only like a small percentage of 

457
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,640
them find me attractive. 
And I think it's like most women

458
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,120
probably are not like in a 
situation where like every man 

459
00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:59,960
in the world finds them 
attractive, but it's like, you 

460
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:01,840
don't need that. 
Yeah. 

461
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,360
And I don't think that a woman 
is every single guy that she 

462
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,800
sees being like, is he 
attractive enough for me to go 

463
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,880
on a date with. 
I think that time and time again

464
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,120
it's shown by, you know, who a 
woman will end up going on a 

465
00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:15,680
second date with after meeting 
somebody through online, through

466
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,000
blind dates, is that they're 
actually much more like 

467
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,320
understanding and receptive 
towards, you know, talking a 

468
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,680
little bit to a guy, figuring 
him out and seeing if she can 

469
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,360
find him attractive even if she 
didn't initially find him 

470
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,520
attractive on first look. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

471
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,440
I think that there's a lot more 
to it than physical 

472
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,560
attractiveness. 
And the confidence piece seems 

473
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,120
like it is just a piece of it to
like get that initial 

474
00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,600
interaction, to get that first 
date or something along that 

475
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,320
line of just kind of breaking 
the ice initially. 

476
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,640
But beyond that, you know, I 
don't think that confidence is 

477
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,840
like the top thing that most 
women are looking for. 

478
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,720
One thing also that I got from 
I've been rereading Emily 

479
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,400
Nagowski's Come As You Are, 
which I think we're going to 

480
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,120
discuss more on a future 
episode. 

481
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,680
One of her points in general 
about just women's sexuality is 

482
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,440
that there's much more 
variation. 

483
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,120
She kind of compares it to 
height where she's like, even 

484
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:11,200
though on the whole men are 
taller than women, there's more 

485
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,400
variation within women's heights
than there is variation between 

486
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,520
like the average woman and the 
average man. 

487
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,400
And she says that that's very 
true about like a lot of data 

488
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,520
about sexuality as well. 
So I was just listening to a 

489
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,200
chapter where she's just like 
listing off all of these things 

490
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,560
that different women who she had
interviewed listed as like their

491
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,960
turn on, like what really gets 
them going. 

492
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,160
And she's like, so and and then 
also like what their turn offs 

493
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,680
were like what put your brakes 
on? 

494
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,480
And at the end of the day, the 
main take away from it was just 

495
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,040
that there's so much more 
diversity within the data set of

496
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,320
women. 
Then there is like any one thing

497
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,640
that you can take away or any 
one thing that you can say. 

498
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,320
Men like this and women like 
this other thing. 

499
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,800
Yeah, so going on with that is 
that there's a book Models 

500
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,640
Attract Women through Honesty by
Mark Manson, which was seen as 

501
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,320
like a more comprehensive, 
actually in tune with people's 

502
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:10,400
emotions book than the game. 
And they, they talk about the 

503
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,040
idea of non neediness and at the
concept of neediness and which 

504
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,280
is deeply unattractive to, you 
know, not just woman, but really

505
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,440
people in general. 
And neediness is when a man 

506
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,040
places a higher priority on 
others perceptions of him than 

507
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,680
on his perceptions of himself. 
And there's a theory that like 

508
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,120
the man's attractiveness is 
inversely proportional to how 

509
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,080
needy he is. 
So the less needy he is, the 

510
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,480
more attractive he will be to 
woman on average. 

511
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,720
And I think that's kind of an 
interesting thing because yes, 

512
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,200
you want a person to, I don't 
know, have a high perception of 

513
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,720
themselves and to care about 
that, not bend to what other 

514
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,360
people find. 
But you also want them to be 

515
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,920
able to listen and take feedback
and to adapt. 

516
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,840
So I, I don't know, does that 
like there's kind of like a 

517
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,120
balance there? 
Yeah. 

518
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,440
When that gets back to the 
research, I think I mentioned 

519
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,400
the last episode, that's like 
successful relationships are 

520
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,080
like there's a lot of openness 
to being changed and like 

521
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,760
evolving with your partner. 
So we think that there is a 

522
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,280
piece of like openness and 
vulnerability which I can 

523
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,600
understand is different than 
neediness and where I thought he

524
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,000
was going to go a little bit 
with the needing the. 

525
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,720
Vulnerability is next and his 
and his list I had. 

526
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,120
To read the book. 
So vulnerability as like he, as 

527
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:27,280
he describes it, is the ability 
to be comfortable with your 

528
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,120
emotions, your faults, and being
able to express yourself without

529
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,080
inhibition. 
And that that's a big part about

530
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,200
building attraction. 
And so this isn't, you know, 

531
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,840
unloading all your issues to 
somebody else. 

532
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,280
But. 
Knowing, you know, oh, I'm 

533
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,080
actually, I'm not the best at 
this. 

534
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,760
So like, I do get too angry in 
these situations and I, you 

535
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,400
know, I, this is like the 
reality of my station in life, 

536
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:52,560
like. 
Yeah. 

537
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,440
Of it, yeah. 
And just I think especially for 

538
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,480
the male side, when men are 
socialized to not talk about 

539
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,760
their emotions that much, that I
think vulnerability is openness 

540
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,040
to talking about your emotions 
and processing them and things 

541
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,240
like that. 
I understand Maui, he's 

542
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,240
differentiating like there's 
like neediness and vulnerability

543
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,960
because I think that that makes 
like a nice balance to walk of 

544
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,760
being vulnerable without being 
needy or like without trauma 

545
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,000
dumping and things like that. 
Because otherwise you just end 

546
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,920
up with an emo kid. 
And I, I think it goes for women

547
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,920
too, this idea that to be ready 
for a relationship, we need to 

548
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,960
have kind of a strong sense of 
self and be willing to go into 

549
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,680
it knowing that we have faults 
and ready to talk about them. 

550
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,760
And to, you know, maybe hear 
other people express that 

551
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,000
they're having a frustrating 
time with some of your own 

552
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:46,760
faults. 
Yeah. 

553
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,160
And a lot I was reading why one 
reason why men might be 

554
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,640
struggling a little bit with 
adapting to kind of the changing

555
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,240
nature of relationships between 
hetero men and women is just 

556
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,320
this shifting overall power 
dynamic. 

557
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,520
And that women used to just kind
of need men for security and 

558
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,240
just like, to be able to have a 
bank account or like own 

559
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,760
property. 
They couldn't do any of this on 

560
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,640
their own. 
So it used to be fairly 

561
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,040
straightforward that, like, all 
that men had to offer was just 

562
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560
that, like, physical stability. 
And anything else beyond that is

563
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,040
kind of icing on the cake. 
And so now we are in this era 

564
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,920
of, like, women can provide for 
their basic physical needs on 

565
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,680
their own. 
And so some men are kind of 

566
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,880
like, Oh, well, then that makes 
us obsolete. 

567
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,600
And this particular writer, I 
wish I remember when I was 

568
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,240
reading, but I think I've seen 
this point made by a few people.

569
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,560
Is that like, no, this is this 
opportunity for you to have all 

570
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,160
this space to be a true partner 
to a woman. 

571
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,800
And that they are still, you 
still see women out there 

572
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,880
looking for men, but now they're
looking for like a partner, you 

573
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,960
know, someone to share 
experiences with, just somebody 

574
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040
who has a sense of humor, who 
brings more enjoyment to life. 

575
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,000
And so you don't have to be, you
know, stuck in these traditional

576
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,600
roles, either of you anymore. 
And that frees you up to to have

577
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,480
much more psychologically 
fulfilling relationship. 

578
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,360
That's and I saw something the 
other day and it was a guy 

579
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,240
posting on one of the social 
media forums that, you know, 

580
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,080
he's so proud because he gets to
retire his wife. 

581
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,560
They had a three month old baby 
and the wife was now, you know, 

582
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,120
retired by him and that this is 
a blessing and a privilege. 

583
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,800
And I was thinking like, oh, the
way that you phrase that, it's 

584
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,760
kind of bothering me because it 
should be fully her decision and

585
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,120
her thing and you should need to
acknowledge, you know, what 

586
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,600
she's giving up during that. 
And that's not really like you 

587
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,240
retired her. 
Like the status symbol that he 

588
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,520
has that he's like, I got to 
like, yeah, render my wifes job 

589
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,960
obsolete because I'm so 
successful. 

590
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,960
Yeah. 
And if you are also giving her 

591
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,080
like, you know, full financial 
freedom, all those things, she's

592
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,280
not going to have to go to you 
when she wants to go out for 

593
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,720
coffee or anything like that for
parishion, then it's not that 

594
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,000
like, that isn't awesome. 
It's just like the wording 

595
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,360
around it. 
Yeah. 

596
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,360
Give me the ick. 
Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. 

597
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,080
Yeah. 
And you know, a reason why we're

598
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:12,120
doing this episode is just to 
kind of clarify some at least of

599
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,440
our beliefs around the idea of, 
of confidence and, you know, 

600
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,920
alpha males for lack of a reward
and why there is some attraction

601
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,720
to them. 
But that comes with balance. 

602
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,520
And we're not asking for 
somebody to take over. 

603
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,240
Or we said attracted to 
confidence without necessarily 

604
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,240
wanting an alpha male because I 
think we had kind of talked 

605
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,960
about that last time that we had
the X&Y axis of of with good 

606
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,840
guys and the bad guys, but that 
the missing piece from that was 

607
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,240
confidence. 
And so I think maybe like 

608
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,640
talking about confidence in the 
in the aspect of it being 

609
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,400
something where the underlying 
nature motivation of the person 

610
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,160
is like good and like meaningful
connection and not just being an

611
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,840
asshole. 
Yeah, and I saw a post that 

612
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,000
really kind of speaks to this, 
which is that sometimes it feels

613
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,920
like the woman shouting the 
loudest about misogynistic men 

614
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,880
are the same ones who want that 
guy from 50 Shades of Grey. 

615
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,840
And I felt, you know, personally
targeted by this post. 

616
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,640
And I was like, whoa, okay, 
Christian Gray actually did ask 

617
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,040
for consent. 
And yes, there was, you know, 

618
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,680
BDSM and Dom sub, but that 
happened within the confines of 

619
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,000
something very specific. 
But also I don't even I didn't 

620
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,280
read 50 Shades of grey but there
are other books where there is 

621
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,680
the guys kind. 
Of yeah, and we've talked a lot 

622
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,200
about how also we might be 
seeking that out. 

623
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,680
And so like this persons post 
that says like, oh, you know, 

624
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,000
these women who are screaming 
about misogynistic men are 

625
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,280
seeking them out. 
And it's like, OK, hold up 

626
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,000
Reddit, bro. 
Like we are seeking them out. 

627
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,720
At least in in the examples that
I'm talking about, obviously 

628
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,200
there are women who are 
inherently attracted to like 

629
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,280
abusive or violent men. 
But I don't think that that's 

630
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,400
something associated with 
feminism. 

631
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,600
I think sometimes some of us 
come from difficult past or 

632
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,000
have, you know, things in our 
childhood that are attracting us

633
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,280
to destructive relationships. 
But on the whole, when we talk 

634
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,560
about women who are feminists 
and are like, you know, these 

635
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:10,560
men need to, you know, be more 
whatever that we're not then 

636
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,920
like turning around and marrying
Christian Gray. 

637
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,560
Yeah, exactly. 
But I mean, that we're that 

638
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,440
we're we are. 
I think at least when I look 

639
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,480
around, I mean sure, like short 
term relationships and one night

640
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,480
stands and things like that. 
But when I look around at the 

641
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,800
strong feminist women that I 
know and who they married, like 

642
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,080
none of them are married to 
Christian Gray. 

643
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,240
None of them are married to 
Mystery. 

644
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,160
Not that you could tie mystery 
down with marriage. 

645
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,560
Or like, I don't know any of 
these examples or like I mean 

646
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,200
any like this romantic stuff of 
like werewolves that also like 

647
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,840
tear their clothes off their 
body with their claws. 

648
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,520
And I saw a review for a summary
of a book written by an author 

649
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,520
actually for that book. 
And she's like, I want to make 

650
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,960
it clear that this book does not
represent what a healthy 

651
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,360
relationship is or a guy that 
people would actually be 

652
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,560
attracted to in real life. 
You know, this book is meant to 

653
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,920
be sexy and deserve the purposes
of something you read that's 

654
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,760
sexy. 
You know, the same way as when 

655
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,480
we watch adult videos or 
something, we might seek certain

656
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,680
content, but that's not 
necessarily what we're looking 

657
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,440
for in our day-to-day 
partnerships in life. 

658
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,280
So. 
Totally. 

659
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,720
And I did because there have 
been some questions about like 

660
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,560
what is it that attracts men 
that attracts women to this kind

661
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,600
of like alpha male kind of 
characteristic. 

662
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,520
There was an article by Gable at
all in Evolution and they were 

663
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,640
looking at some previous 
research that is kind of like, 

664
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,680
why are women attracted? 
And, and like, does it have to 

665
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,840
do with an evolutionary kind of 
thing of like maybe these men 

666
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,280
are more masculine and able to 
reproduce? 

667
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,480
They were studying whether women
are more attracted to appetite 

668
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,280
of aggression, which is just 
basically like when men are 

669
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,760
violent without any like reason 
to, they're not provoked, 

670
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,480
they're not defending anything. 
So. 

671
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,680
Gosh, no. 
Yeah, I mean, and I guess that's

672
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,320
like what you see in kind of 
some of these like characters 

673
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,280
that we're into in books or when
they're like, oh, you're 

674
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,880
attracted to these like 
misogynistic men in in this 

675
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,639
article, they called it kind of 
like the warrior archetype. 

676
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,400
So they did find that when women
are in the peak of their 

677
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,760
fertility cycle that they were 
more attractive. 

678
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,560
They gave different scenarios of
this soldier, his experience 

679
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,360
returning from war and they gave
you 4 different vignettes with 

680
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,719
trauma related symptoms with 
high or low appetite of 

681
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,480
aggression or no trauma related 
symptoms with high or low 

682
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,800
appetite of aggression. 
And the women are like ranking 

683
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,480
how much they would want to be 
with the soldier in this little 

684
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,280
like story that they're given. 
Oh my gosh, it's like right when

685
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,120
they're horniest, they want to 
be with the people who can, 

686
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,880
like, protect. 
Right when they're horniest they

687
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,719
do, they're more attracted to 
the alpha male. 

688
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,239
But even in that case, it was an
uptick in how many of them 

689
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,480
reported they'd be interested in
a short term relationship with 

690
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,679
this aggressive alpha male 
warrior type than that any of 

691
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,440
them were like, Oh yeah, this is
the man that I want to like get 

692
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,920
a mortgage with and like 
hosting. 

693
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:06,520
Raising my kids. 
Do be a soccer coach for my kids

694
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,600
soccer team. 
So yeah, this is this idea that 

695
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,960
like this is a marker for 
recently this like masculinity 

696
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,560
is like a marker for 
reproduction, but we don't 

697
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,480
actually see them necessarily as
relationship material. 

698
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:20,800
Yeah. 
And that's funny. 

699
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,240
So something that Neil Strauss 
did write about that I thought 

700
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:25,760
was kind of ridiculous because 
when I was actually imagining it

701
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,160
happening, I was like, Oh my 
gosh, that would be such a turn 

702
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,280
off. 
But it was for guys to come 

703
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,240
prepared with stories about how 
they were a leader in different 

704
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:36,600
situations. 
And so when they were starting 

705
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,400
the conversation with a woman, 
they would get into sharing 

706
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,400
these, you know, work antidotes.
I would always have them in like

707
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,360
the leader of the alpha position
because we're evolutionarily 

708
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,800
attracted to guys who are in 
that. 

709
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,840
And I'm just imagining that if I
were sitting there with like, 

710
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,440
you know, some 23 year old like 
Deloitte associate and he's 

711
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,560
like, I was really leading when 
I told this company this. 

712
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,880
Oh my gosh, I'm actually just 
flashing back to like, I was at 

713
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,760
a party and I was being hit on 
by some Deloitte douchebag bro, 

714
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,960
and he was talking about 
something. 

715
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,320
I was like not even talking 
about work because of course, 

716
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,880
like I was 22 and like had no 
job that I needed to talk about 

717
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,320
in a party situation. 
But he was like, oh, like, do 

718
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,040
you have a passport? 
Then like you have me to thank 

719
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,960
for it Because I, or I think I 
was like saying something about 

720
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,320
how I traveled a lot for work. 
But he was saying to me like 

721
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,400
worked with Deloitte on like 
passport control technology or 

722
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,560
something. 
And he's like, it's like, thanks

723
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,040
to my work that like you can 
move like quickly through other 

724
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,880
countries. 
And I was like, OK, how did this

725
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,520
just turned into a LinkedIn 
post? 

726
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,200
Like please Get Me Out of here. 
Support conversation now, yeah, 

727
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,920
so. 
I also wanted to ask about some 

728
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,040
of our favorite characters while
we're on this topic, who some of

729
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,040
our favorite characters are that
come across as like very 

730
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,080
confident and maybe that they 
have traditional qualities of 

731
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,600
masculinity to like test this a 
bit, mainly because as you know,

732
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,080
Kay, I am reading the a court 
of. 

733
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,960
By Sarah J. 
Moss We finally to read A Court 

734
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,960
of Thorns. 
I am finally catching up on all 

735
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,040
of my romanticy reading so no 
spoilers because I'm only into 

736
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,600
the second book, but just from 
knowing general things about 

737
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,920
this series and hearing about it
from our friends and obviously 

738
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,240
being the last person to be 
reading this series. 

739
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,880
So I just finished the first 
book and it's all about her, her

740
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,680
relationship with Tamlin. 
And I'm like, I know they don't 

741
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,360
end up together, right? 
So I'm like waiting, I'm like no

742
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,320
Reese and is the name of the guy
that she. 

743
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,920
So then like later in the book, 
I'm like, oh OK, this is who 

744
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,520
she's going to be with. 
And he is just a total douchebag

745
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,000
when you first meet him, but 
there. 

746
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,040
Are reasons for that, yeah, 
it's. 

747
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,720
Like in the book, so again, it's
like this guy who reads as a 

748
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,520
total douchebag. 
But I feel like whenever you 

749
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,880
have those characters, which is 
like pretty much always the 

750
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,280
setup in the enemies to lovers 
trope, which is kind of my least

751
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,360
favorite trope because I feel 
like you have to manufacture 

752
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,160
this like slightly unrealistic 
situation of like why they would

753
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,840
be bitter enemies and just like 
totally hate one another, but 

754
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,200
then like find some reason to 
like totally lost after each 

755
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,720
other later, which. 
Is why it works. 

756
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,560
Yeah, exactly, which is why it 
only works in fantasy. 

757
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,480
And yeah, so I'm I'm already 
kind of like getting into this, 

758
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,880
but it's not just that he is 
this like, because she's not 

759
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,640
attracted to him being this 
alpha male or like kind of an 

760
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,840
asshole and really confident. 
And I'm not really to the part 

761
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,320
of the book yet where she's into
him. 

762
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,080
But you can already see like 
where it's starting to set it up

763
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,960
that he has these reef moments 
of vulnerability and that's 

764
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,880
what's actually attracting her 
to him. 

765
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,360
And then meanwhile, her 
relationship with Tamlin is 

766
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,760
starting to to break down a 
little bit. 

767
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,080
And in that case, it is because 
he's very controlling. 

768
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,160
He's not seeing her as an equal 
partner. 

769
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,720
It's not because he's being a 
beta at all that she's less 

770
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:05,960
attractive. 
Or in a lot of these other 

771
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,320
books, if there's the guy that's
the initial love interest or the

772
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,920
guy that she's supposed to be 
with, who's the obvious pick? 

773
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,880
It's rarely that she's not into 
him because he's being a beta. 

774
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,880
So do we think that that means 
that Sarah J. 

775
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,600
Moss read the book called Models
Attract Women through Honesty by

776
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,480
Mark Manson? 
So she knew that there had to be

777
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:34,040
non neediness and vulnerability.
I mean, not having gotten even 

778
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,600
through the 2nd book yet, I 
think that you can answer this 

779
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,680
better than I, but it kind of 
seems like that's the setup 

780
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,880
here. 
Yeah, it's interesting because I

781
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,640
think that Reese and is very 
alpha, but when I look back at 

782
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,040
it, the moments where you 
actually become a attracted to 

783
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,720
him are through these more 
vulnerable moments where he's 

784
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:51,960
acknowledging his inability to 
do things or his. 

785
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,280
Yeah, yeah. 
So I. 

786
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,360
Think and I guess also in in the
books with primarily, especially

787
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,960
where you have this is not the 
only series that you I mean, I 

788
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,360
think this is the most famous 
where you have women lusting 

789
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,440
after fairies. 
When you have all these men who 

790
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,280
are like, oh, I'm an alpha, 
like, I have to have all these 

791
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,520
like markers of traditional 
masculinity. 

792
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,680
And yet what you see that these 
women are lusting after, at 

793
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,200
least in this case of fairy 
romanticity, I mean, these men 

794
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,480
have long hair in a lot of 
cases, I just. 

795
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,440
Not my thing. 
Well, again, this is like 

796
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,280
fantasy things that we're 
lusting after. 

797
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,040
I don't also feel like you would
be sexually attracted to other 

798
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,920
kinds of hairy beasts either. 
So I guess those are pretty like

799
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,880
alpha masculine. 
But the theory is I, I did not 

800
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,280
realize until reading this book 
that the love interest is 

801
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,000
wearing a Mardi Gras mask that 
is surgically plastered to his 

802
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,720
face for the entire first book. 
So like, it was very glitzy. 

803
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,280
He's got like a lot of glamour. 
I feel like he is just reading 

804
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,480
as a little bit like. 
You have to put on like a weird 

805
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,800
mask for these. 
A little bit fancy. 

806
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,440
Yeah. 
No, I mean, I have no problem 

807
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,080
with that. 
I like that we're like bridging 

808
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,400
it a little bit. 
And it's not just like he had a 

809
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,040
motorcycle and a six pack. 
And I mean, he's not like coming

810
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,280
across as effeminate, but he's 
also not coming across as this 

811
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,160
traditionally masculine that his
biceps ripped through his 

812
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,840
leather jacket. 
Also plays the fiddle, you know.

813
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,200
That I love a good orchestra 
dork. 

814
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,280
So I hope that this is an OK 
time to switch over to an 

815
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,520
important thing that also leaks 
back to the orgasm gap because 

816
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,760
it is relevant in terms of 
romanticity. 

817
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,360
So I was reading a book about 
demons this weekend. 

818
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,080
This is the Sexy Satan book. 
Next to Satan, there was 

819
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,760
Lucifer. 
There was, you know, an 

820
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,640
Archangel. 
I mean, it really had everything

821
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,240
I needed. 
But the important part about it,

822
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,560
relevant to the orgasm gap and 
important about women writing 

823
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,360
books about fantasy worlds, is 
that, according to to this 

824
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:05,240
book's Canon, demon vaginas have
a second clitoris that is inside

825
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,960
the vagina. 
Is this the G spot it is? 

826
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,080
I mean, it's kind of like. 
It's the D spot, the big. 

827
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,480
D spot is. 
It is instead the literal 

828
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,840
hypersensitive clitoris. 
You know the G spot is not. 

829
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,360
Nobody would say that any of the
G spots are the same as a 

830
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,400
clitoris for a woman. 
And this was literally a second 

831
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,120
clitoris within the vagina. 
I love this. 

832
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,560
I would also I think that this 
is you were reading some you 

833
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,960
were a beta reader for some 
material for the author. 

834
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,400
Should we credit? 
I was just an early reader. 

835
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:43,440
The book is called Beast and 
it's by Georgia Lee and I 

836
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,600
thought that it was a blast and 
as soon as I read that there was

837
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,880
a sexy Satan on the first page I
was like I am. 

838
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,280
Fulfilling your Catholic 
fantasies that we've already 

839
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,680
previously discussed we. 
Always knew that Satan would be 

840
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,320
a daddy in bed and unfortunately
she did not get to have sex with

841
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,720
Satan. 
But Satan was actually one of 

842
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,520
the better demon Princess, where
we kind of wish that she had had

843
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,000
sex with Satan at the beginning 
and they left you no doubt that 

844
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,440
he was going to be able to give 
a good time if she had gone 

845
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,800
through with it, yes. 
For for a fallen woman. 

846
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,480
But I won't get into it. 
But she was a furious. 

847
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,440
My sweet spot is reading books 
that have like under 100 reviews

848
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,720
on Goodreads that aren't their 
first couple months. 

849
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,160
Because it just feels like 
you're doing two things at once.

850
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,120
I'm reading a book that I 
genuinely want to read, but also

851
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,640
if I'm giving a review 
afterwards out of my own free 

852
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,720
will, I feel like just putting 
good karma out there. 

853
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,040
So we're going to end up with a 
little talk on the loneliness 

854
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,080
epidemic. 
Yeah. 

855
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,520
I think to summarize this, it 
seems like confidence is 

856
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,040
attractive when it is an 
indicator that you are somebody 

857
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,520
who is generally open to 
relationships. 

858
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,840
And I like the model book, that 
idea of being vulnerable without

859
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,400
being needy or just that you're 
somebody who is genuinely 

860
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,800
seeking human connection. 
So I was just listening to an 

861
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,120
NPR piece on the male loneliness
epidemic, and they actually 

862
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,520
pointed out that if you just 
look at the Pew Research on 

863
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,920
people reporting that they're 
lonely, I think they said that 

864
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:19,640
like 30% of people overall feel.
In the most recent Pew Research,

865
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,200
30% of people overall feel 
lonely once a week or more. 

866
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,280
But then it was about 16% of 
people overall said that they 

867
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,080
are lonely most or all of the 
time. 

868
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,160
But there was actually only 
about 1%. 

869
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,680
I know I'd like first of all 
nine. 

870
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,040
Percent. 
Join us in the comments and you 

871
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,760
can come be our friend. 
But they said that. 

872
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,400
So I think there was just like a
1% difference between. 

873
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:48,120
So I think it was like 16% for 
women rounded and 17% for men. 

874
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:52,120
So the the journalists who are 
commenting on this were like, 

875
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,200
there isn't actually a big 
difference if you just talk 

876
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,840
about being lonely. 
That's just more of an overall 

877
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,800
cultural trend when we live in a
world where I think post 

878
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,400
pandemic, you can name a number 
of reasons for that that we've 

879
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,880
had to break down in some of our
traditional communities. 

880
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,000
And many of us live in a town 
that's like different than the 

881
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,120
one we grew up in. 
So we don't have these long 

882
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,080
standing communities. 
So they were kind of talking 

883
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,320
about like, what are the other 
differences for men? 

884
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,000
And one of them that they said 
is that there's this conflation 

885
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,560
that was mostly just among men 
of loneliness and like not 

886
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,000
having a partner relationship 
that they were not like 

887
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,080
separating the 2. 
And so women are thinking like, 

888
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,720
on the whole, we're more seeking
both friendships and a 

889
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,880
relationship, either or and or 
both. 

890
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,080
And but that like men are 
conflating this idea of like 

891
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,720
having connection in your life 
as like you, the best and 

892
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,640
highest form of that is to have 
this relationship. 

893
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,160
And one way that they saw that 
play out is that they asked 

894
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,320
people like, how likely are you 
to go to these different 

895
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,400
relationships or these different
people in your life when you 

896
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,520
need something or you need 
support or advice? 

897
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:08,680
And men were as likely to go to 
their spouse as women are to go 

898
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,920
to their spouse for like help or
advice. 

899
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,520
But men are less likely to go to
like every other type of 

900
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,960
relationship in their life. 
So women would go to their 

901
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,160
spouse, but they would also. 
Go. 

902
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,760
Their parents, their siblings, 
their friends, you know, their 

903
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,000
their their work wife, whatever.
And men were pretty much like, 

904
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,240
if you have a spouse, you would 
go to her, you would go to them 

905
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,040
for advice and support. 
And then other than. 

906
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,880
That comment towards us burying 
most of the load there, but 

907
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,400
that. 
Was a huge discussion piece for 

908
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,080
it and the amount of pressure 
that this is on women again, 

909
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,680
that men have such singular 
focus on these partners 

910
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,200
relationships in that they're 
expecting to get so much more 

911
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,360
out of it because they have like
fewer friendships to fall back 

912
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,200
on or the friendships they they 
are used less in that way. 

913
00:46:55,240 --> 00:47:00,440
So men, you know, maybe use 
these game tactics on other men.

914
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,360
You know, maybe when you walk 
up, I think you put three boys 

915
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,280
and you see another three boys 
in the bar. 

916
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,800
Just go talk straight to them, 
you know? 

917
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,800
OK, honestly, I feel like a lot 
of these tactics are like the 

918
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,840
nagging stuff like this would 
work equally well on male 

919
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,200
potential friends because I do 
think that men a little bit more

920
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,960
than women enjoy like a good 
little nagging or something like

921
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,080
that. 
And and there's so I don't know 

922
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,120
if you ever see. 
Talking gives the men something 

923
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,800
to respond to and the other guy.
Yeah, exactly. 

924
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,840
I think that they're the same 
way that they say women are 

925
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,600
actually dressing mostly for 
other women. 

926
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,560
I think these men who are 
wearing these like sort of 

927
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,520
outlandish clothing are probably
mostly doing it to like. 

928
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,400
Make other guys laugh. 
Status symbol amongst your Bros.

929
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,200
You know, as we said, this idea 
that like as society does become

930
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,320
more equitable that women don't 
need men for these like basic 

931
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,600
needs anymore. 
And do you ever hear that French

932
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,160
guy on social media that he's 
always like or she doesn't need 

933
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,440
you anymore bro like she doesn't
have to be bothered with it just

934
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,200
for your like weak ass 
relationship. 

935
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,240
I don't know. 
He does like all these funny 

936
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:06,720
things that just do. 
I will send you some videos from

937
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,200
him, but he's like, she doesn't 
need you. 

938
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:10,880
She's got her shit taken care 
of. 

939
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,520
Unless you can give her 
something that really is going 

940
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,400
to be amazing for her, then she 
doesn't need to be bothered. 

941
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,520
He says she's single and 
deliciously undisturbed is one 

942
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,400
of the last videos that I wanted
watched. 

943
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,680
And he says dating in 2025 is 
like applying for a job that 

944
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,400
doesn't pay well. 
So there's like a lot of videos 

945
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,520
and content out there of 
basically like, hey, women are 

946
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,240
doing well. 
Like we've got great friend 

947
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,920
groups. 
We have, you know, jobs and 

948
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,640
health insurance now and we can 
have credit cards on her own. 

949
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,640
So like men, you have to offer 
us something. 

950
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,360
Yeah, and there's a lot of 
different ways that you can meet

951
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,800
friends and people and the 
relationships might naturally 

952
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:47,920
come from there. 
But things like, you know, 

953
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,040
kickball leagues and running 
groups and all. 

954
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,720
That well, this is this is 
something else that I noticed 

955
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,000
when we were talking about our 
Nice Guys episode. 

956
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,800
Is that the friend zone 
complaint? 

957
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,280
Have you ever heard a woman say 
like, oh, I got put in the 

958
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,520
friend zone by this guy, even 
though like maybe we have all, I

959
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,720
mean, I know I have. 
We have all had a situation 

960
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,560
where you were like, oh, I was 
attracted to this guy, but he 

961
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,440
didn't really like see me as 
more than a friend. 

962
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,040
But we don't have this like we'd
never. 

963
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,560
Be like oh I'm friend zone. 
We would just be like, oh be. 

964
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,360
Like, oh, that's disappointing 
when you had different like 

965
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,640
thoughts on where this 
relationship was going. 

966
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:23,680
And then you can decide if you 
want to like be friends with 

967
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,400
somebody that you kind of wish 
you had something more or that 

968
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,080
that's too painful. 
So I think that that's just such

969
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:34,080
a particularly male thing, this 
idea that all relationships that

970
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,240
aren't, you know, going to end 
in some kind of like sex or 

971
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:41,680
boyfriend girlfriend thing are 
just not worth having. 

972
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,600
And so that like friend zoned is
negative or just like connecting

973
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,760
with a bunch of people. 
Yeah, like, again, maybe that 

974
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,480
trick at the bar where you go 
and you talk immediately to a 

975
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,880
group of girls, it works because
you're just having a good time 

976
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,880
and people want to be with 
people who are having a good 

977
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,200
time instead of being focused 
on, you know, who you're going 

978
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:01,440
to bring. 
Home and that seems like that's 

979
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,560
really a reliever for your 
anxiety is instead of setting up

980
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,480
a fake situation where you 
pretend that or that it's not 

981
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,840
going to turn into something 
more maybe just like genuinely 

982
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,400
go in with that expectation. 
Well, following up on things 

983
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,240
from previous episodes, we 
always like to wrap by following

984
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,600
up. 
I know that we owe our Gilmore 

985
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,640
Girlies an official apology 
because we were talking about 

986
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,400
Rory's different love interests 
in a previous episode and 

987
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,840
mistakenly referred to Jess as 
Jesse. 

988
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,000
One of our intrepid listeners 
pointed this out. 

989
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,680
I am going to take all the fault
for this one cake. 

990
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:36,520
I know. 
You're not watching. 

991
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,880
Gilmore, but. 
Why was? 

992
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,040
His reaction was, why is there a
man named Jess? 

993
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:47,400
So I would encourage you, Kay, 
to deconstruct a little bit your

994
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,640
desire for traditional 
masculinity and look into the 

995
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,600
fact that he is actually the 
most emotionally vulnerable of 

996
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,440
all of her love interests. 
I'll try, I will try Gilmore 

997
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,960
Girls maybe sometime if I have 
to spend 3 months in a hospital.

998
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,160
That is the only scenario that 
you consider. 

999
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:09,320
Can't read? 
Yeah, neither audiobooks or 

1000
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,040
normal reading books are 
available to me. 

1001
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,480
Then I'll watch Gilmore Girls. 
While I am continuing to move 

1002
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,360
through the Court of Thorn and 
Roses at a fast clip, so. 

1003
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,160
And Speaking of just female 
friendships being peak and men 

1004
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,280
need to aspire to have their 
friendships be more like women, 

1005
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,640
I would just like to shout out 
to Kay and our other Court of 

1006
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:34,280
Thorn and Roses bestie who is 
the like #1 fangirl that got me 

1007
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,480
into reading this series. 
I've been live texting my 

1008
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,760
commentary on this series as I 
go through for the. 

1009
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,400
It's just so hard to not respond
with spoilers because it's like 

1010
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,000
oh I know exactly what chapter 
it's going to get good but you 

1011
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,800
all. 
Are doing a very good job of 

1012
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,080
that, but I just feel like pig 
female friendship is when you 

1013
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,120
were like, oh, OK, yeah. 
Like you're about to get to like

1014
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,640
the part of the book where it 
gets really hot and then both of

1015
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,520
the two of you like 10:00 at 
night. 

1016
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,960
You were both like, I'm going to
flip to that scene in my Kindle 

1017
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:03,760
and we're all going to be 
reading it together. 

1018
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,720
In the same time, because like 
the scene was is literally that 

1019
00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:09,480
she meets the guy who we both 
love. 

1020
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,720
And so the scenes literally just
hello, I've been looking for 

1021
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,640
you. 
And so Sarah and I separately 

1022
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,480
texted him. 
We're like, SJ is going to be 

1023
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,720
pretty unhappy with what that 
scene actually is. 

1024
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,080
Yeah, I was, but I just really 
appreciated that you are now, 

1025
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:29,320
like, reading our, like, smutty 
book together with me in 

1026
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,800
solidarity. 
And we're like, all in our beds 

1027
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,320
late at night, like reading sexy
fairy fiction. 

1028
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,280
I say. 
Like the reason that they think 

1029
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,560
maybe a lot of men are 
struggling to have the same 

1030
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:41,880
level of friendships as women 
are is because of all of the 

1031
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,280
homophobia that they're 
conditioned with and that 

1032
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,160
they're like, oh, you can't like
do anything that would be like 

1033
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,000
too emotional or gay with your 
bro. 

1034
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,280
So you have to just like, talk 
about sports and like nag each 

1035
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,600
other, you know, on sexually. 
Imagine if like our partners 

1036
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,560
were all texting each other like
hey I just watched a really 

1037
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,040
great adult video. 
Yeah, they're like, OK, guys, 

1038
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,080
They're like totally getting to 
this part where they're like, 

1039
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,120
there's this really amazing 
blowjob. 

1040
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,120
Like let's all watch it together
at the same time and then text 

1041
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,840
each other about it. 
I would love that for them. 

1042
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,920
Well, have a great day 
everybody. 

1043
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,400
Thanks so much for listening. 
Appreciate a five star review 

1044
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,120
and a follow. 
No nagging in the comments 

1045
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:21,560
needed though. 
You know only. 

1046
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,760
Appreciate nagging one-on-one in
the club in 2004.