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Welcome to something positive 
for Positive People. 

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I'm Courtney brain. 
Something positive for positive 

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people is A5O1C3 nonprofit 
organization supporting people 

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who are navigating herpes 
stigma. 

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We're winding down to our 400th 
podcast episode, which If you 

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are located in or near Brooklyn,
NY and you're a listener, I 

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invite you to come check out 
karaoke night. 

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We'll be celebrating our 400th 
podcast episode release and 8 

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almost nine years. 
It's closer to 8 1/2, if I'm 

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being honest. 
It's close to 8 1/2 years of 

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podcasting of interviewing 
people living with herpes about 

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their experiences from diagnosis
to dating and discussing this 

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with their other partners. 
Mondays are for something 

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positive, for positive people. 
So every Monday evening, 7:30 PM

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Eastern Time, until something 
needs to change, we have either 

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the women's support group or the
men's support group, and these 

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meet virtually. 
The women's group meets the 1st 

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and 3rd Monday, 7:30 PM Eastern 
Time, and then the men's group 

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meets the 2nd and 4th of Monday,
7:30 PM Eastern Time, and these 

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are virtual whenever there's a 
fifth Monday. 

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I'm trying to think of something
to do. 

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I think that for the fifth 
Monday what I'll do is blend the

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groups. 
So for the 5th Monday option, I 

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might do some type of a 
integrated support group option 

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thingy and just bring people 
together in that way. 

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And we'll see what happens for 
December. 

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But I'm really excited to be 
rounding out and closing up the 

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podcast as it is, at least for 
now, because this does free up 

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space for me to do more 
community engagement, more with 

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the support cause and being able
to bring people together in 

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terms of having to support 
groups. 

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And then we still have the 
survey, the surveys collecting 

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responses. 
We have not gotten a lot of 

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responses to the survey compared
to previous years, and I know 

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that it's 100% because of how 
social media has been silencing 

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the sex education and sexual 
health language, so people 

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really just aren't seeing the 
content. 

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Whenever I post about the survey
or I'm asking for people to take

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it, or even if I'm sharing 
information about herpes and 

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sexual health, no one sees that.
So it's been a little difficult 

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there. 
I go to my spaces, Reddit and 

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online and Google and things 
like that. 

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So if you are someone who has 
community or connection to 

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people who do have herpes, I 
invite you to please share the 

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survey among them so that we can
have more representative and 

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accurate information to show for
2025 going into 2026 especially.

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All right, those are all my 
announcements today. 

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We are this is my last podcast 
interview of 2025 and I'm 

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grateful to have our guest on 
here with us. 

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I'll let you introduce yourself 
the way that you want to be 

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introduced. 
And then the first question I 

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have for you is just for you to 
share from your perspective how 

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we connect it. 
Hi I'm John, I am herpes 2 

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positive and I'm also a 
recovering sex addict so they're

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linked. 
Real quick, let me ask you this.

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So I'm John, I have HSB 2. 
What made you lead with that in 

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your introduction, out of 
curiosity? 

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This is a kind of a podcast for 
that, so my meeting could take a

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little back seat, but you know, 
they're linked together, at 

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least for me in. 
Terms of my identity. 

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OK, Yeah. 
And that makes sense. 

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I was just like, wait a minute, 
why did you say that? 

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Because one of the things that I
think I do with this platform is

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I try to give people the 
opportunity to see themselves 

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and be themselves, express 
themselves. 

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Like outside of the herpes 
diagnosis, which I'm glad you 

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followed up with the sex 
addiction because that'll be a 

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lot of what we talked about here
and your experience with that. 

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But I, I just wanted to hear 
from your words, what made you 

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leave with that? 
And the fact that we're on the 

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podcast where I literally 
interviewed people, I heard this

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makes sense. 
So I'm going to let it slide 

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here. 
So starting with the first 

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question, like, how'd you find 
me? 

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What made you reach out? 
Let's speak a little bit about. 

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So I found you for looking for 
support groups. 

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I was, you know, I had a bad 
outbreak in October, lasted 

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about a month kind of coming and
going when got a blood test, 

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everything, you know. 
And in November I started 

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feeling really isolated. 
I started feeling really alone. 

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And I told a couple people from 
my recovery programs about it. 

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But you know, they're, they 
don't have this. 

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So it's that same feeling of 
they can't fully relate. 

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They were supportive, but they 
can't relate. 

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And I was talking to one person 
and they said you should look 

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for a support group. 
And I found this one. 

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And I don't know, just that day,
I was feeling really, really bad

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that day, like almost like panic
attack levels. 

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And I decided to, you know, 
reach out. 

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And luckily we jumped on a call 
like half an hour later. 

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I think I was talking to you 
while I was on the train. 

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I was on the train and we were 
kind of in and out and it was 

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just enough for us to be able to
get through the call for me to. 

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First of all, thank you for 
being patient with me in that 

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the the signal kept dropping and
you weren't always able to hear 

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me. 
But yeah, I thought that you had

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a very interesting experience 
worth sharing here. 

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And I want to shout out Chris 
Pickering from Pickering Fitness

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because he spoke on Beck 
Antonucci's podcast about 

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struggling with erectile 
dysfunction at a young age. 

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So it, it made me think about 
different vulnerabilities and 

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other things that maybe we 
struggle with or have an 

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identification with. 
As you were sharing about your 

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experience with sex addiction 
and I was like, yo, maybe it 

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would be helpful to just share 
your experience as well and 

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maybe experience a little bit of
freedom from that. 

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So can you talk to us a little 
bit about your experience with 

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sex addiction, how it was 
described to you, how you found 

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out, and then anything else that
you want to share? 

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Yeah, I have been in sex 
addiction recovery for three 

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years now, currently 14 months 
sober, which I'm grateful for. 

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For sex addiction for me isn't 
just about the sex addiction. 

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It's about, you know, I think 
someone, you know, someone 

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mentioned it to me and it kind 
of my, I think it was actually 

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my therapist. 
He's like, it's not just sex 

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addiction, it's addiction to 
sexuality. 

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You know, it could be any forms,
you know, healthy masturbation, 

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it could be porn, it could be 
sex, anything where I'm just 

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using that to regulate myself. 
And I've probably been this way 

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since I was, you know, 32 now, 
probably been this way since I 

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was 18. 
I never was really addicted to 

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drugs or alcohol, never really 
did anything like that, probably

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because I was scared to death of
my mother finding out and 

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killing me. 
So this seemed like was safe 

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then. 
And I think a couple times I 

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started realizing that I had a 
problem. 

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But you know, I guess like in 
any addict, I didn't care. 

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I kept pushing myself, you know,
getting myself into situations I

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should have been in, putting my 
health at risk, obviously, 

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which, you know, could be a 
consequence. 

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But what kind of made me realize
it was I got myself into kind of

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a very dangerous situation in 
terms of seeing a sex worker 

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because I couldn't stop, ended 
up having to steal money from my

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parents to pay for an extortion,
which definitely kind of broke 

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their hearts. 
But it kind of woke me up. 

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Like that's what I needed to 
make me realize and finally 

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admit that I had a problem and I
needed help. 

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What do you mean pay for 
extortion? 

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The person threatened to me. 
I was seeing them on and off and

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then they had my like I was, 
they had my personal number. 

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They kept bothering me, calling 
me multiple times a day, 

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threatening me, threatening my 
family. 

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And you know, that's when I 
realized like, no, this is not 

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just something I can just do on 
the side. 

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This is something serious. 
And you know, I couldn't stop. 

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It was compulsive. 
So I want to, I want to, let's 

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take a little, let's sit here 
for a second, right? 

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Because one of the things that I
want to highlight too is that 

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seeing a sex worker is not 
inherently a bad thing. 

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Now when you speak about it from
the addiction perspective and 

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being extorted, like those 
aspects of it, like those poor 

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consequences, outcomes, like 
that's, that fucking sucks. 

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Now I want to ask, was this 
starting out as maybe a healthy 

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expression or relationship with 
you and the sex worker? 

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I think it was just me thinking 
that maybe we were friends and 

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honestly, you know, I had to 
admit to myself that they saw me

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as a means to survive for money 
and I saw them as a means to not

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myself out for emotionally. 
And I've been doing that before 

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I realized it, you know, looking
back on it, if I had a bad week,

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I would go and engage. 
If I had a good week, go and 

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engage. 
And now I'm like, looking back, 

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I'm like, no, that's just me 
relying on that. 

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No matter what. 
Bad week, something to lift me 

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up. 
Good week, something to bring me

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up. 
That's OK, because I was looking

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to at trying to figure out how 
do you know something's an 

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addiction, right? 
I can have sex, I can do drugs, 

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I can smoke cigarettes, I can 
drink, right? 

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You can do these things and it 
not being an addiction and then 

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you can do these things and they
are an addiction. 

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So the way that you described 
it, it didn't matter if you had 

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a good week or a bad week. 
You just found a reason to do 

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it. 
So what's the difference I guess

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between it being an addiction 
and just being a healthy form of

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expression or connecting with 
the person? 

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Well, I have to fully admit when
I was acting out, I honestly 

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didn't care about the person. 
They were a means to an end. 

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I got myself in some situations 
where the person was in their 

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addiction and my, you know, my 
conscience was screaming you 

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shouldn't be doing this and I 
didn't care. 

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You know, I don't really care 
about them. 

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I just, I didn't see them as a 
person. 

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That's, you know, that's the 
truth of it. 

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I didn't see them as a person, 
which is probably one of my 

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biggest regrets. 
But I was addicted. 

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I didn't care. 
I just wanted my means to my 

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end. 
And, you know, I had to realize 

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that I was seeing these people 
for their body, not for them, 

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for their body. 
And that's when my therapist is 

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like, yeah, no, this is an 
addiction because you're not 

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actually trying to develop a 
friendship. 

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You're just seeing them as an 
object and you know something I 

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have to live with. 
Yeah. 

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So was there a particular act 
that you were looking for? 

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And you don't have to go like 
into too much detail by any 

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means. 
Was there an act you were 

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looking to fulfill, or was it 
just a matter of achieving 

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orgasm? 
I think it was just me looking 

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for that double mean head to 
feel better. 

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A little bit of back story, my 
father had been suffering from 

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depression probably since I was 
16. 

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And I think that was, you know, 
not, I'm not blaming him, but it

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was definitely a kind of big 
emotional weight because I had 

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to push myself. 
I had to be there for my family.

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And honestly, you know, looking 
back on it, 1819 years old, I 

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couldn't do that. 
And this was my way to numb 

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myself out, to push myself to 
limits that I never could have 

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done before. 
And you know, looking back on 

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it, that's what I needed to 
survive back then. 

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But you know it. 
It wasn't the right thing to do,

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looking back on it. 
So you kind of had to become the

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man of the family while you were
still a kid. 

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Yeah. 
And you didn't really get to 

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have the play or the kid 
experiences. 

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And maybe some of that was 
contributing to you, I don't 

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want to say making up for lost 
time, but living out, you know, 

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in a way that now as someone 
older than 1819, you know, those

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earlier years where you were 
kind of forced into adulthood, 

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where you said 16 was when your 
father had depression. 

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So you had to become the man 
pretty early. 

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And you missed out on some years
of adolescence and being a 

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teenager and being able to have 
those experiences with your 

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hormones and being able to have 
the space to express that like 

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among your your peers. 
I think about like route being 

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in that transition around 
friends and then when you're 

226
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,440
curious about sex, being able to
be curious about sex in ways 

227
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,920
where like the environment is a 
space for curiosity about sex. 

228
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,480
But then you're thrown into 
having to become a man and you 

229
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,840
don't really know what that 
looks like. 

230
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,960
You're just thrown into having 
to be a man. 

231
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,760
And you have these urges and 
desires, and now you have the 

232
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,360
means of acquiring them with 
information that you as a child 

233
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,920
wouldn't have gotten. 
So it creates this new system of

234
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,920
potential expressions for you to
express sexually. 

235
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,880
I hope what I'm just saying 
makes sense, but let let me know

236
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,320
if you need any elaboration 
there. 

237
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,680
But is that accurate? 
Yeah, honestly, that's what I 

238
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:54,800
was trying to do. 
I think I got thrust into a 

239
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,920
situation where I felt that I 
had to become. 

240
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,320
And something my friends talk 
about in recovery, we all got 

241
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,240
the hero syndrome. 
I, I felt like I needed to 

242
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,120
become the hero. 
I had to become the unbreakable 

243
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,440
person. 
And you know, no one, no one's 

244
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,320
like that. 
No one can, no one's 

245
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,840
unbreakable. 
And I realize that now, but I 

246
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,520
pushed myself and kept telling 
myself that I have to be the 

247
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:17,760
rock. 
I have to be unbreakable. 

248
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,600
I can't show weakness. 
And before I knew it, something,

249
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,360
you know, sexual just turned 
into an addiction where I would 

250
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,280
just look to it to constantly 
just regulate my emotions and 

251
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,360
just navigate myself during the 
week. 

252
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,880
And, you know, started off, you 
know, maybe innocent in 

253
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,400
curiosity, but then eventually 
it came to the point where it 

254
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,120
was just me needing it 
constantly. 

255
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,400
I just couldn't stop. 
Yeah. 

256
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,560
Was there anything else that you
might have expressed feelings or

257
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,160
expressions of addiction toward 
outside of sex? 

258
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:58,360
Like maybe before then? 
That I've also been a compulsive

259
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,080
overspender probably since I've 
been about 1718 gift, gift money

260
00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,400
for high school graduation and 
then spending it. 

261
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,800
And that was something I put on 
the back burner, something 

262
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,440
actually recently been really 
focusing on and doing better on.

263
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,040
But I was a compulsive 
overspender and a sex addict. 

264
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,280
And I think, you know, I 
realized lately as that the two 

265
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,600
of them were kind of 
interlinked, especially when it 

266
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,920
came to paying for sex at times,
because it's like I get the head

267
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,520
off of paying for money and 
then, you know, spending on 

268
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:32,360
something I wanted the physical.
It was it was really struggling 

269
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,840
to really kind of deal with 
early on. 

270
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,320
I was like, why is this so bad? 
Why can't I stop when some 

271
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,480
people can? 
And I was like, oh, wait a 

272
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,120
minute, I'm spending over in 
Section 2. 

273
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,240
No wonder why. 
Yeah. 

274
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,080
So it was the spending 
beforehand. 

275
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,680
So you noticed that with like 
graduation money that you were 

276
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,880
having an addiction to spending.
Was it the things that you got 

277
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,640
or was it the act of spending? 
I think I heard you say the act 

278
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,520
of spending gave you a dopamine 
hit. 

279
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,320
Yeah, it was the act of spending
and actually just getting stuck 

280
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,960
because, you know, looking back 
on it, I admit I tried to buy my

281
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,480
happiness because I think in 
reality, deep down I wasn't 

282
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,520
happy. 
I wasn't secure about myself. 

283
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,640
I was insecure about love, how 
people, you know, people put up 

284
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,560
with me because I'm adopted by a
different nationality. 

285
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,360
And I think that created some 
issues where, you know, looking 

286
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,920
back on it, I always had this 
viewpoint growing up, which, you

287
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,440
know, I realize is not true. 
But I had this viewpoint, if my 

288
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,080
birth mother can give me up, 
what's going to stop my adopted 

289
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,520
parents from giving me up and 
what's going to stop other 

290
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,120
people from giving me up? 
And it was an emotional void I 

291
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,720
had for years. 
What the fuck do you do with 

292
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:50,920
this emotional awareness? 
Me right now, go therapy and 

293
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,440
talk to people and actually be 
grateful that I'm aware of these

294
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,680
things now because I think deep 
down I buried them. 

295
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,920
I buried them for so long. 
I was so insecure about myself 

296
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,040
that people were just putting up
with me, were going to kick me 

297
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,480
to the curb, and I was trying to
buy happiness because I wasn't 

298
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,040
happy. 
I was unsure of myself. 

299
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,400
I was unsure of people 
legitimately cared about me and 

300
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,319
this was my escape. 
This was my route to feel better

301
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,920
by buying whatever I could and 
having, you know, sex or you 

302
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,119
know, in relationships, being a 
love addict too. 

303
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,120
Just trying to fill that empty 
void and it never worked. 

304
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,080
So what's the difference between
being a sex addict and then 

305
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,560
being a love addict? 
Because I, I thought they might 

306
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,360
have been the same thing. 
But now that I'm saying it out 

307
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:43,280
loud and sitting here with you, 
I'm thinking you don't see the 

308
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,440
person as a person. 
You still see them as a means to

309
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,080
an end. 
On one hand, through sex and 

310
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:54,400
sexual acts and through the end 
of love being perhaps having the

311
00:17:54,400 --> 00:18:01,240
emotional connection and the 
intimacy, but seeing them as 

312
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,400
that. 
Or, I'm sorry, not as people, 

313
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,320
but only seeing them as a means 
of achieving that. 

314
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,120
For me, I identify as a love 
addict because you know, for a 

315
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,040
while I'm quick to develop 
feelings and get attachments to 

316
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,800
people for relationships wise. 
And I remember with my ex, you 

317
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,920
know, looking back on it, I 
noticed this when I first 

318
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,480
entered recovery. 
You know, before I met my ex, I 

319
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,600
could not stop compulsive sex 
with sex workers, friends with 

320
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,880
benefits, you know, all that 
other kind of stuff. 

321
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,040
Soon as I met my ex though, all 
of that stuff because I was 

322
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,200
getting a bigger dopamine hit 
from her. 

323
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,200
Oh my God, this is someone who's
not a family member and she 

324
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,600
cares about me. 
She likes me. 

325
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,400
That was like the biggest 
dopamine in the hit. 

326
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,640
All the sex addiction just came 
right to a halt, stopped. 

327
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,560
And I was getting that addiction
off her, a love addiction. 

328
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,400
And you know, that's when I 
realized looking back, I'm like,

329
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,920
Oh yeah, no, I was getting 
overly attached to her because I

330
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,440
was have. 
I was expecting her to fill the 

331
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,680
void that I couldn't fill for 
myself. 

332
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,240
Yeah, So what I'm hearing here 
is there is and and please 

333
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,160
describe to me how addiction 
feels for you. 

334
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,640
But the way that I'm hearing it 
is there's this drive toward 

335
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,880
outcome and it just needs to be 
an outcome. 

336
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,320
And you've mentioned dad 
depressed being adopted, so 

337
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,120
having to be the man of the 
house. 

338
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:36,880
So there's a lot of childhood 
markers of events that have 

339
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,280
occurred that can contribute to 
how you see the world and how 

340
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:47,240
you respond to it. 
And as I'm I'm, I'm thinking 

341
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,920
about what addiction maybe feels
like is that compulsion towards 

342
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,000
some form of soothing and that 
you can get it. 

343
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:58,960
You got it from your 
relationship. 

344
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,400
So you didn't need it from sex, 
you didn't need it from 

345
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,920
spending, you didn't need it 
from any of those other places 

346
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,840
because the addiction had. 
Sort of something to attach to. 

347
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,280
So addiction being sort of like 
a force that is a, it's a 

348
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,560
driving force towards something.
It doesn't have to be 5 things 

349
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,520
that you can get addicted to, 
because if you have one of those

350
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,320
things where the addiction is 
just being tended to, then the 

351
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,520
other four don't really matter. 
Is that. 

352
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,600
Yeah, that's actually, that's 
kind of what my therapist says. 

353
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,400
It's like, you know, I think we 
say this in recovery. 

354
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,520
You take care of the addiction 
that's going to kill you first, 

355
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,040
and then you take care of other 
ones. 

356
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,840
Because my therapist was like, 
oh, people, a lot of people are 

357
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,560
multiply addicted. 
Not everyone admits it, but can 

358
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,200
people tend to be multiply 
addicted? 

359
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,640
And, you know, for me, it was 
soothing. 

360
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,400
That's what it was for me. 
I was looking. 

361
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,720
I guess it was a form of control
for me because I felt like my 

362
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,600
life was just spiraling out of 
control. 

363
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,680
Things are, you know, stressful 
at home. 

364
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,400
Things are bad, you know, my 
mother was under stress and 

365
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,400
everything. 
And then this comes along and I 

366
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,760
feel good afterwards or I feel 
good during it. 

367
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,480
And then I was like, oh, this 
feels good. 

368
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,520
Let me go back to that. 
And then we go back to it. 

369
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,560
Let me go back to it. 
And just to the point where I 

370
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,560
was relying on that to regulate 
me and keep me centered and to 

371
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,760
keep me going. 
Because honestly, like, I think 

372
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,600
if I didn't, I probably would 
have had a nervous breakdown 

373
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,320
over the stress. 
I probably would have had to 

374
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,160
stop college and everything. 
But I, you know, it was 

375
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,960
definitely the thing that kind 
of kept me going because it 

376
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,120
gutted me emotionally. 
I was, I was numb. 

377
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,800
And I remember feeling that way 
sometimes when some relatives 

378
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,640
would die, we'd get awake and I 
just sat there. 

379
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,440
I just didn't feel anything. 
And, you know, looking back, I 

380
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,440
was like, why did I feel that 
way? 

381
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,640
Oh, because I was just so, I 
guess addicted. 

382
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,240
And so in my high quote UN 
quote, I didn't feel anything. 

383
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,960
I was numbed out. 
I was emotionally dead to 

384
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:03,080
describe myself. 
Man, so the addiction also 

385
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,720
sucked the life out of you. 
Is that accurate to say? 

386
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,920
Yeah. 
And oh, go ahead, go. 

387
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:12,480
Ahead. 
No. 

388
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,880
I was emotionally numb and I 
even remember this when my 

389
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,360
grandmother passed away. 
I didn't cry once. 

390
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,280
I kind of just was like there 
sitting with it and I think 

391
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,360
probably that urges to go 
indulge in my addictions. 

392
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,440
Birth grandmother or adopted 
grandmother? 

393
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,200
Adopted family? 
Which one? 

394
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,600
Adopted grandmother. 
OK, so you don't think that 

395
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,640
maybe it didn't have anything to
do with the fact that y'all 

396
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,920
weren't in blood adopted or how 
long? 

397
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,360
What age were you adopted? 
I was adopted 6 months old. 

398
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,600
OK, all right. 
So when you say your dad was 

399
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,720
depressed only. 
My adopted family. 

400
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,360
Got it. 
OK, that. 

401
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:54,800
My birth mother as my birth 
mother otherwise, if I look for 

402
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,920
my mom and dad, I'm going to 
talk about my adopted family 

403
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,440
because they're. 
My thank you, thank you for 

404
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,280
clearing that up because I, I 
didn't even think to inquire on 

405
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,560
that. 
So was it just that maybe you 

406
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,080
didn't have a connection to 
well, no, because that's all you

407
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,960
knew. 
But did being adopted shape or 

408
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,880
form any kind of barriers, I 
guess when you found out you 

409
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,000
were adopted, any barriers to 
your family to feel like, oh, 

410
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,520
this isn't my family or oh, I'm 
not connected to them. 

411
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,880
Did did that happen for you? 
Yeah, that's, I think that's 

412
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,560
part of one of the main core 
reasons why I'm a sex and love 

413
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,720
addict and codependent and seek 
validation. 

414
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,000
You know, I was, you know, I 
definitely did love my 

415
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,240
grandmother was close with her 
or I tried to be. 

416
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,160
But I think when it came to my 
parents, I always had this doubt

417
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,640
if I screwed up, if I did bad, 
they would kick me to the curb. 

418
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,280
And anonymously, I hate to say 
this, but I, you know, part of 

419
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800
my family didn't treat not my 
immediate, not my, you know, my 

420
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,320
mother's immediate family, but 
like second cousins, 3rd 

421
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,560
cousins, like other branches of 
the family. 

422
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,160
I guess I always felt like odd, 
I always felt like the black 

423
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,880
sheep of the family didn't look 
like them and I wasn't really 

424
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,200
fully accepted. 
But then again, they don't 

425
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,480
really accept our family as it 
is too because they have like, I

426
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,960
don't know, they have like this 
attitude. 

427
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,200
But you know, it definitely felt
even more worse because it's 

428
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,320
like, oh, they don't accept us 
and they definitely don't accept

429
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:23,480
me because I don't look like 
them. 

430
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,520
And you know, the same thing on 
some of my family's, you know, 

431
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,240
my, both my parents sides of 
their families, you know, the 

432
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,200
immediate family was fine. 
Outside the immediate family, 

433
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,080
though, I felt excluded and I 
felt alone. 

434
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,800
And I think, you know, it 
definitely kind of shaped me to 

435
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,320
kind of like look for any type 
of attachment where I could. 

436
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,600
And, you know, I think even 
growing up in school, early on 

437
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,960
in elementary school, I was, you
know, bullied at times. 

438
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,880
Eventually, you know, stopped by
middle school and I was fine for

439
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,880
the rest of my years. 
But after that, you know, still 

440
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,240
same thing, trying to fit in, 
trying to find that group. 

441
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,200
Let's talk a little bit about 
the word attachment. 

442
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:12,120
I know we talked about herpes 
yet, so when you said 

443
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:16,640
attachment, I had a little bit 
of a sensation in the body to 

444
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,880
follow up about that. 
Can you speak to me about how 

445
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,960
attachment plays a role in your 
experience with addiction? 

446
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,120
Just that can be your personal 
experience or whatever you and 

447
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:34,400
your therapist to talk about. 
Yeah, attachment was probably 

448
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,040
the reason why I turned to 
casual sex a lot is my addiction

449
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,920
because I wanted the intimacy, 
but without the fear of 

450
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,720
rejection. 
I paid for that or I just hooked

451
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,480
up with this person. 
OK, I'm getting that intimate 

452
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,200
feeling, but I don't have to ask
you out. 

453
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,000
I don't have to be an actual 
relationship because I'm afraid 

454
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,960
at my core, you're going to 
reject me. 

455
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,160
You're going to toss me to the 
curb. 

456
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,240
So this was a way into it 
without getting the emotional 

457
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,280
attachment. 
And I can cut this person off 

458
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,080
anytime I need it. 
And you know, that wasn't 

459
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,800
really, that wasn't healthy. 
That was not healthy. 

460
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,920
And it definitely really kind of
Hanford even, you know, how I 

461
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,320
viewed my relationship, my last 
relationship, because I, you 

462
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,040
know, even though I tried 
without one, didn't end up 

463
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,680
working out well, mostly because
of me. 

464
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,640
And you know, my things. 
But you know, attachment for me 

465
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,200
was I was too afraid to take 
those risks. 

466
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,840
I was too afraid to, you know, 
venture out and meet new people,

467
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,280
which is why my therapist says I
am what they call socially 

468
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,080
anorexic, where I want to 
socialize, but I'm afraid of 

469
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,080
rejection, so I don't socialize.
I cut off my nose to spite my 

470
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,360
face. 
What you're describing to me 

471
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:53,680
sounds more like non attachment.
Like you can't attach to people 

472
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:59,480
because you're attached to what 
you get from them, and if you 

473
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,760
can't get the thing from them 
then it's easy for you to 

474
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,520
discard them. 
That's how it sounds to me. 

475
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,920
Is that am I hearing that wrong 
or what? 

476
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,000
No, I think it's in, I think 
it's in like 2 different forms. 

477
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,520
It's in that form definitely in 
terms of like the sex and the 

478
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,400
intimacy. 
And then the other part, it's 

479
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,240
just like, oh, I complain that, 
oh, I used to feel lonely. 

480
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,160
I don't have that many friends 
as I used to have. 

481
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,720
Well, was I venturing out to 
meet new people? 

482
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,320
No, because I was afraid, oh, 
I'm going to go out and try to 

483
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,000
meet new people. 
And they're just to say, who the

484
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,600
heck is this guy? 
We don't want to talk to him, 

485
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,120
get away from us. 
That's what I always say. 

486
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:33,000
So like, I'm not going to go. 
And then my therapist finally 

487
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,880
convinced me of just start going
out and making new friends. 

488
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:41,280
And I have been doing that and 
it's been game changing for me 

489
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,800
lately. 
So the thing that you mentioned 

490
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,120
about you mentioned fear of 
rejection, is that something 

491
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:57,520
that you had and now go ahead. 
Yeah, no, I always had that, 

492
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,480
which is why in terms of the sex
addiction and and honestly, I 

493
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,160
think This is why November. 
That's part of the reason why I 

494
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,280
reached out to the support 
group, this support group, 

495
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,040
because, you know, it feels like
there's this weird cut. 

496
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,960
There is a stigma, you know, not
just with herpes, it's a stigma.

497
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,960
Anything we're talking about 
sexuality, you know, healthy, 

498
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,080
unhealthy. 
And, you know, it's weird 

499
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,640
because I do have a couple of 
friends that are like, you know,

500
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,760
covering Alcoholics or, you 
know, covering drug addicts or 

501
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,720
whatever. 
And there's like, I always feel 

502
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,480
like there's this weird kind of 
like feeling when you talk, when

503
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,240
you tell somebody where if 
someone tells you that, because 

504
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,920
then usually the response is, 
oh, that's great, your recovery 

505
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,960
great for you. 
And I made the mistake early on 

506
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,880
telling somebody I was a 
recovering sex addict and that 

507
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,640
kind of ended the friendship 
because there's that weird 

508
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,800
stigma to it. 
They people like like, oh, what?

509
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,040
Like, oh, that's weird. 
You're weird or you know you're 

510
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,480
a pervert or something. 
That's what I was thinking. 

511
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,160
I was like, they must have heard
it like, oh, you have a problem.

512
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,800
Not that you recognize this 
pattern of behavior and you're 

513
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,880
actively doing the things and 
taking the steps that a healthy 

514
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:07,080
person would take to alleviate 
the OR solve what I don't even 

515
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,480
want to call it a problem, but 
to engage with whatever it is 

516
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,200
that the condition, the pattern 
is for you to work through it. 

517
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,400
And then it pisses me off that 
people are like that. 

518
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,560
It pisses me off that when you 
are doing the right thing, how 

519
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:31,480
easy it is for someone to make 
us feel bad for doing what we 

520
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,320
should be doing. 
Yeah, that's actually, you know,

521
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,560
it's funny, I just thought of 
this. 

522
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,040
That's why, you know, when you 
ask me, oh, why did you 

523
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,440
introduce yourself as herpes too
positive immunity? 

524
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,600
Because I'm being open about 
myself because I think I'm 

525
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,840
really starting to accept that 
I'm not just a sex addict. 

526
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,280
I'm not just a herpes too 
positive. 

527
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,640
I'm John. 
This is part of me, but it's not

528
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080
the whole thing. 
And I think that's part of the 

529
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,200
reason why, you know, I looked 
for that support group though, 

530
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,040
you know, and because I needed 
the support, I needed people to 

531
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,480
understand that, you know, I 
have this because they're like I

532
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,520
said, there is that stigma. 
And I felt like I really needed 

533
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,560
support because, you know, I've 
been describing it as like, I 

534
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,040
feel like I have a nail in the 
coffin already, which isn't 

535
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,720
true. 
But this is just my, you know, 

536
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,160
fear saying, oh, who's going to 
want to be with a sex addict? 

537
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,040
You know, it's different than 
how you're being a recovering 

538
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,400
alcohol. 
Like you can survive without, 

539
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,240
you know, alcohol, whatever. 
We just go to a dry place. 

540
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,720
But like sex addict, like, OK, 
there's sex and intimacy. 

541
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,960
There's sex in a relationship. 
What does that mean for 

542
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,520
somebody? 
And then oh, that I'm only my 

543
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,480
sex addict. 
I'm a love addict and I'm herpes

544
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,280
too positive. 
What does that mean for me? 

545
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,480
Is that another nail in the 
coffin? 

546
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,080
And it's kind of like, you know,
that's I think that's why I 

547
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,040
reached out for worker because 
lately I've been feeling really,

548
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,640
I guess scared and nervous up 
until the last couple days 

549
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,720
because my sex addiction was 
like, Oh my God, we're going to 

550
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,920
die, causing me to go on a fight
or flight mode. 

551
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,480
Because, you know, it was trying
to tell me that, you know, my 

552
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,640
sex addiction was trying to tell
me, Hey, this is the only thing 

553
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,440
about us. 
We're just sex addicts. 

554
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,120
And because we can't partake in 
this because of herpes at the 

555
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,840
moment, you know, we're going to
die. 

556
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,280
But then, you know, lately I've 
been like, well, herpes right 

557
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,560
now is not affecting me going to
work. 

558
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,280
It's not affecting me what I 
eat, it's not affecting me. 

559
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,960
You know, all this other stuff, 
all these 95% of my life is the 

560
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,840
same. 
It's only affecting the sex 

561
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,440
addiction part. 
And the sex addiction part is 

562
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,040
what's causing me to panic and 
freak out because right now, go 

563
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,520
to work, hanging out with 
friends, still doing my hobbies,

564
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,880
everything's the same. 
I'm still me. 

565
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,240
I'm not oh, he's herpes 
infected. 

566
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,880
I don't have leprosy. 
I'm still the same. 

567
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,800
If you yourself are someone who 
is in recovery for sex 

568
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:54,000
addiction, how do you know if 
entering a relationship where 

569
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,320
there's a healthy sexual 
relationship? 

570
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,720
How do you know when you're in 
addiction versus you're in 

571
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,360
relationship? 
I'll be honest, I don't know 

572
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,080
because at least for right now, 
my recovery, I'm still finding 

573
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,800
out new, I'm still working on 
myself. 

574
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,000
And you know, for a lot of 
people in, you know, are love 

575
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,920
addicts, they decide not to date
for a while. 

576
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,480
And right now I'm like, if I go 
to date, I'm going to be dating 

577
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,880
for the wrong reasons. 
I'm going to be reading. 

578
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,040
I'm going to be looking for 
validation, not to feel alone. 

579
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,000
And I have to be fully 
comfortable with myself. 

580
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,400
And once I come to terms, 
because I'm still in the 

581
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,840
transition period of accepting 
that I'm herpes too positive 

582
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,520
that I have to make some 
lifestyle changes occasionally. 

583
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,200
And once I come to terms with 
that, I'll address it because I 

584
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,680
have had feelings of like, oh, 
maybe I should start to date 

585
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,040
soon. 
And then this happened and now 

586
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,520
I'm kind of like, give it time. 
I might feel different in a 

587
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,280
month or two. 
I might feel different tomorrow.

588
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,560
But right now I'm not ready for 
that yet. 

589
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,800
And I'll know when I'm ready for
it because I feel like 

590
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,680
something's been changing with 
me that I feel more confident in

591
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,680
myself. 
And I think that's why, you 

592
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,880
know, like I said, I said I'm 
herpes deposit. 

593
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,080
I'm a sex addict. 
I'm being more open with myself 

594
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,560
because I think I'm getting 
tired of just trying to hide who

595
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,960
I am because I know these things
don't define me. 

596
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,680
I'm more than this. 
And I feel like I want to 

597
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,240
embrace that. 
I'm tired of just pretending I'm

598
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,960
not who I think I am. 
I wanted to interview you like 

599
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,920
just when I spoke to you on the 
phone, I, I had this moment of 

600
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,640
being like, what the fuck can I 
do for you? 

601
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,920
Like you're, you're in therapy, 
you're saying the things from 

602
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,480
being in recovery as well that I
would question a person about or

603
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,520
inquire on or challenge them on 
if we're having a support call. 

604
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,560
Like you're already verbalizing 
the things and you're at a place

605
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440
where I wonder what, what do you
need? 

606
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,840
What can I do do for you? 
And the only thing that I felt 

607
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,760
in my body to ask you to do was 
just to share your experience 

608
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,240
and put that out there. 
I know that you mentioned 

609
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,719
feeling anxious. 
I can't remember the any other 

610
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,800
words that you had mentioned on 
our call. 

611
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,199
But if you can go back to that 
space, can you explain what you 

612
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,760
were feeling at the time that we
were having our call? 

613
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,239
Like how are you feeling? 
I was feeling very scared. 

614
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,320
I was feeling anxious. 
I was a lot, for a lot of 

615
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,360
different reasons #1 because the
outbreak in October was, you 

616
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,960
know, kept coming and going, and
I was on the pills. 

617
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,719
And I think I was getting some 
bad side effects too, for the 

618
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,400
pills, because I was feeling 
really depressed. 

619
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,440
And I think I was starting to 
get to the point where it's 

620
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,280
anxious because I was feeling 
everything. 

621
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,760
I was feeling scared that the 
outbreak was never going to go 

622
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,600
away. 
I was scared if I stopped taking

623
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,080
it, the outbreak's going to come
back. 

624
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:52,159
And one of my healthy things has
been exercising on an exercise 

625
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:55,159
bike, which I haven't done in 
over two months now because of 

626
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,120
the outbreak. 
I'm giving myself time to heal 

627
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,800
now. 
And you know, I, you know, I 

628
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,480
went to a second opinion for a 
doctor. 

629
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,440
I'm not taking a daily 
suppressant at the moment 

630
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:04,840
because I'm not in a 
relationship. 

631
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,120
And my doctor was like, OK, 
finished my last pill yesterday.

632
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600
And I admit this morning I woke 
up really nervous because I'm 

633
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,240
like, what if this comes back? 
What if this, what if I have 

634
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:16,360
another outbreak immediately? 
And I started getting that 

635
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,880
panicky feeling, which is, you 
know, I understand that. 

636
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,880
Yeah, they come and go. 
But I'm like, right now, I feel 

637
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,920
like I'm still in the trenches. 
I'm starting to get out, 

638
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,000
starting to go to the back of 
the line to relax. 

639
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,880
But that thought popped up. 
What happens? 

640
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,840
How am I going to feel if 
another outbreak comes up? 

641
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,840
Will it go away? 
But I have another refill. 

642
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,320
I have some extra pills at home.
Like, OK, I'll just take it if I

643
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:38,880
need to. 
Like, I'm starting to come to 

644
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,640
terms with it. 
But I was afraid that it was 

645
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,280
never going to go away, that I 
would never be able to use I 

646
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,760
exercise bike and my sex 
addiction was telling me, Oh 

647
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,320
well, we're going to be celibate
in a monk. 

648
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,280
And my sex addiction was like 
screaming and screaming at me 

649
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,720
like Oh my God, we're going to 
die. 

650
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,600
Which is why I was feeling 
scared and nervous. 

651
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:00,480
So you get dysregulated, you 
have an intense, intense 

652
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,880
emotional response. 
And to get back to your in yoga,

653
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,520
there's the three states of 
everything. 

654
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,400
There's Rajas, which is motion, 
Satva, which is stillness. 

655
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,000
And then I'm sorry, Thomas, 
which is stillness or slowness. 

656
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,840
And then there's Satva, which is
like a perfect state, which 

657
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,080
would be us in regulation. 
So something this regulates you 

658
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,320
and your emotions or your inside
world does this. 

659
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:36,760
It's constantly in motion and 
then to ground yourself, that's 

660
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,400
where you seek some form of 
connection through your 

661
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,120
addictive behavior. 
Is that an accurate 

662
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,760
representation? 
Yeah, and that is honestly what 

663
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,880
the real struggle has been 
lately because when I am in that

664
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,880
fight or flight mode, my brains 
telling me sex addiction is the 

665
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,680
way to solve this. 
And, you know, it took me a 

666
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,880
while to figure out what healthy
sexuality for myself was, you 

667
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,920
know, and then I figured it out.
And then I'm like, OK, now this 

668
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,400
isn't, you know, I have to be 
safe. 

669
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,440
I can't, you know, endanger a 
partner or whatever. 

670
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,440
But when I'm feeling this way, 
my body and my brains, so I 

671
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,200
mean, Oh my God, we need some 
form of sex to regulate 

672
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,120
ourselves. 
But when I'm having an outbreak 

673
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,360
or I'm still healing from an 
outbreak, it's not a 

674
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,160
possibility. 
So I'm kind of just like sitting

675
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,800
there, like, OK, I have all 
these emotions. 

676
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,240
I feel completely overwhelmed. 
And my addiction is telling me 

677
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,400
that I need this, but I can't do
that. 

678
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,960
And that was what really kind of
what was making me struggle. 

679
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,360
And it made me realize, Oh my 
God, I think I'm going through 

680
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,920
sex addiction withdrawal again. 
It's that same feeling I had 

681
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,560
three years ago because my sex 
addictions like, we're never 

682
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,360
going to have anything again. 
But I don't really, you know, 

683
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,720
it's that thing we say is like, 
I want it, but I don't need it. 

684
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,400
And it was tough. 
All right. 

685
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,120
Thank you for everything that 
you shared to this point. 

686
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,440
I had one other question that 
popped up for me, which was to 

687
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,920
be in a relationship with 
someone who's in recovery. 

688
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,520
Because you said this to me on 
the phone, I believe that you're

689
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,720
in recovery for the rest of your
life. 

690
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,280
Maybe you didn't say that, Maybe
I heard that, but like you're 

691
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,520
always in recovery. 
So what does it look like to be 

692
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,640
in a relationship, let's say 
with you or with a person who is

693
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,400
in recovery? 
What can the relationship 

694
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,680
dynamic look like? 
Because like we said, there's a 

695
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,560
stigma to everything. 
So someone might go, oh, I'd 

696
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,520
never date someone who's had a 
sex addiction or who's had an 

697
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,000
addiction before, who has a 
diagnosis, right? 

698
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,200
And I've been looking at this 
for myself, just looking at 

699
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,360
different mental health 
conditions and looking at what 

700
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,760
it's like to date someone who 
has a mental health diagnosis 

701
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,200
and what you need to know and 
what you need to do as a 

702
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,200
partner. 
Unless you have a diagnosis 

703
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,760
yourself, you don't really 
understand. 

704
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,000
So do you feel like your options
are only limited to people who 

705
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,880
maybe also are in recovery? 
Or do you what, what can we 

706
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,640
speak to as as far as you can, 
being in a relationship with 

707
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,080
someone who is not in recovery 
for sex addiction, but who can 

708
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,600
understand what your needs are 
in a relationship? 

709
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,520
I think for me, I mean, I'm not 
in a relationship, but I think 

710
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,640
for me, I, this is saying what I
think I need, I will number one,

711
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,880
I need to be, I need to 
communicate with this person 

712
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,640
openly and I need this person to
communicate with them. 

713
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,880
I need them to communicate with 
me. 

714
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,560
Not, you know, trying to, I 
guess, play it safe, dance 

715
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,720
around certain subjects. 
Like if there's a subject we 

716
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,040
have to talk about, then I want 
to talk about it. 

717
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,560
And that's something, you know, 
I've been doing lately. 

718
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,840
Ironically, after your call, I 
told my parents about my 

719
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,000
diagnosis because I felt like I 
was constructing a mental prison

720
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,120
for myself, you know? 
And I think that's like a weird 

721
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,000
thing because like, you know, I 
was trying to look for advice 

722
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,160
for some people, something like,
oh, we're not in a sexual 

723
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,520
relationship. 
Why do you tell your parents? 

724
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,640
It's like, well, if you trust 
and your parents support you, 

725
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,800
why wouldn't you tell them? 
And I did. 

726
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,600
And I was really worried like, 
Oh my God, because they know of 

727
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,760
our covering sex addicts, 
obviously, because you know, the

728
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,520
extortion thing, I was worried, 
Oh my God, they're going to 

729
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,600
think badly of me. 
And my mom's like, OK, I had 

730
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,560
shingles, remember? 
And it was nice and supportive. 

731
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,880
But like, communication is 
what's really what I need. 

732
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,200
I think that's what's honestly, 
I'm going to say this and maybe 

733
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,240
I don't fully believe it, but 
I'm trying to believe it. 

734
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,760
Herpes 2 diagnosis is starting 
to become a little bit of a 

735
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,600
blessing in disguise. 
It's affected me, but I'm 

736
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,800
getting better at communicating.
I'm really being open with 

737
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,320
people about how I feel. 
I'm not. 

738
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,440
I think what I realized, like I 
was slowly sipping back into my 

739
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,480
old habits of smiling, 
pretending that I was feeling 

740
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,880
OK. 
In reality, I wasn't. 

741
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,080
I was scared, I was nervous. 
I felt like crying. 

742
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,640
I did cry at times. 
Come to terms with this. 

743
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,000
And now I'm kind of being open. 
I'm just saying, yeah, no, I'm 

744
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,280
not feeling too great today. 
I feel like crap and just being 

745
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,600
honest about it. 
I think it's helping me more 

746
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,240
with my honesty, probably the 
last three years the recovery 

747
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,280
has, it's really helping me be 
honest with myself and with 

748
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,640
other people and communicating, 
hey, I'm not doing good right 

749
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,640
now. 
I need a little space. 

750
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,880
I need a little help. 
I need you to be gentle with me 

751
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,520
because right now my brain is 
spinning and I feel like my 

752
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,080
whole world's flipped upside 
down and I just need some time 

753
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,920
to just sit or be by myself or 
be around people. 

754
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,240
And it's been helpful. 
It's been really helpful just 

755
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,440
communicating how I feel because
I've gotten so used to not 

756
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:38,440
communicating how I feel. 
So what I hear is as a an 

757
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,840
emotionally aware person, self 
aware person, you are taking the

758
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,920
onus of communicating. 
So you need to feel the safety 

759
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,760
in the relationship to be able 
to communicate or you're going 

760
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,320
to communicate well. 
All you need is to be understood

761
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:01,440
in that communication and it can
be a healthy relationship 

762
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,000
dynamic as far as we know or can
speculate. 

763
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,560
I love the accountability. 
That's honestly, yeah, you 

764
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:11,960
summed it up. 
That's that's what I've been 

765
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,760
needing from other people. 
And instead of waiting for them 

766
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,560
to initiate it, I'm starting to 
initiate it because I've always 

767
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,640
been like, I'll talk about when 
I get confronted about it 

768
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,520
because that's the attic secret 
behavior. 

769
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,160
And, you know, lately I haven't 
been doing that lately. 

770
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,280
I've been really open with 
people actually told one of my 

771
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,040
meetings that I was herpes too 
positive. 

772
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,680
And I did it not just to feel 
better, but I also kind of 

773
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,640
wanted to remind other sex 
addicts that like, you know, 

774
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,480
because some, because you know, 
some of us do struggle. 

775
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,160
Some of us, you know, haven't, 
don't have sobriety. 

776
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,920
I'm just like I remember telling
one person, like it's just not 

777
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,400
worth it. 
It's not worth it. 

778
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,800
Considering how awful and 
painful October was, how I still

779
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,160
have nerve pain, tingling 
leftover and still healing. 

780
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,440
It's not worth it. 
It's worth it to get the help 

781
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,520
for it. 
It's not worth it to, you know, 

782
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,800
hurt myself physically. 
I can't wait to come to your Ted

783
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:05,360
Talk, man. 
I, I can't wait. 

784
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,880
This is just like an interview. 
Whenever you get a chance to 

785
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,360
listen to this and see how you 
feel about it, and maybe you 

786
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,600
want to proactively orchestrate 
your story and be able to tell 

787
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,040
it with the beginning, middle, 
and end your own way outside of 

788
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,680
just the herpes context, unless 
you want to include that. 

789
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,880
Let me know where it is so I can
make myself available to come to

790
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,240
that. 
That, that, that, that talk that

791
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,280
you're going to do. 
Man, I see really big things for

792
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,200
you. 
I appreciate your willingness to

793
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,080
especially so freshly into this,
be here to share your experience

794
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,600
because I think that this is how
we heal. 

795
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,560
We heal through not only having 
our stories witnessed by other 

796
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,360
people and being able to share 
them, but through what's 

797
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,040
possible on the other side of 
knowing it's it's out there, 

798
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,080
right? 
So we're having this moment 

799
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,440
right now. 
It's 5:13 PM Eastern Time on 

800
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,320
Wednesday, December 3rd, 2025. 
S Michael, listen to this in 10 

801
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,280
years and be like, damn, that's 
me. 

802
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,400
I want to do something different
for myself. 

803
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,080
And you fucking did that by 
showing up here and being 

804
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,920
willing to share your experience
that that sounded like I was 

805
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,720
ending the podcast. 
But I actually, because you 

806
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,000
mentioned having told your 
parents and you, you spoke a 

807
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,120
little bit about this, but I 
want to just ask, like, how do 

808
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,400
you feel now after having told 
your parents, right? 

809
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,920
Has anything changed for you? 
Do you regret it? 

810
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,920
Was this what you needed? 
It definitely lightened the load

811
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,880
because I think what for me, 
because I still live with my 

812
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,360
parents, because I was a 
caretaker for a while for them 

813
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,840
and trust still trying to figure
out what an adult means for 

814
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,920
myself. 
But I felt like I was sneak. 

815
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,640
I felt like I was back in my old
addictive habits, keeping 

816
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,000
secrets, sneaking off to the 
doctor, sneaking my medication 

817
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,880
in and it was eating away at me 
because I'm like, I want to live

818
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,640
this way anymore. 
I want to be open and honest 

819
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,080
with other people. 
And that finally after our 

820
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,080
conversation and actually 
another recovery call 

821
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,960
afterwards, I was like, no, I'm 
going to be honest about this 

822
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,760
because I don't want to live in 
secrets anymore. 

823
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,200
And we say recovery, at least 
our meetings, you're only a 

824
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,360
secrets, you're only as sick as 
your secrets. 

825
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:15,840
And I was keeping it a sick 
secret. 

826
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,400
I was feeling sick about it. 
And like someone said, I was 

827
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,160
constructing a mental prison for
myself and I wasn't aware of 

828
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,280
that. 
I was and it's been great 

829
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,360
because I was getting tired of 
coming home after work, smiling 

830
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,560
and saying, yeah, my day was 
good. 

831
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,600
And I would go to bed, listen to
music, try to calm down mid 

832
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,040
panic attack. 
And now I'm like, I would go 

833
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,120
home and be like, yeah, no, I 
kind of barely got through the 

834
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,440
day. 
And then just stay like, OK, all

835
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,800
right, leave me alone. 
Because sometimes I feel 

836
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,560
overstimulated, like I was doing
too much being overwhelmed. 

837
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,880
And because they're, because I 
had communication, I was like, 

838
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,880
hey, I'm not doing too well 
today. 

839
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,600
Hey, I'm really nervous today. 
I'm really scared right now. 

840
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,720
And we would take it easy. 
They would kind of like be there

841
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:59,200
if I needed to talk to them. 
But then they'd be kind of like,

842
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,040
OK, we'll take care of some of 
our own stuff. 

843
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,640
We'll kind of let you be for a 
little bit. 

844
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,880
If you need to lay down, listen 
some music or relax or a little 

845
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,520
bit try to calm yourself down. 
Go ahead. 

846
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,360
We're not going to force 
anything from you because you're

847
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,680
communicating this to us. 
And that same thing that applies

848
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,520
in relationships applies with 
your family, friends, people 

849
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,360
close to you. 
Hey, I need to just be able to 

850
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,360
say this is how I'm feeling. 
I know what I need. 

851
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,880
Like if you're going to be 
supportive, just support me and 

852
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,720
meeting my own needs. 
You're not keeping the secret 

853
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:32,400
and something to them to meet 
your needs without them even 

854
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,800
knowing what your needs are. 
God damn, that's deep. 

855
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:39,560
That's deep. 
And like I can admit to 

856
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,920
something that I've struggled 
with as well is asking for what 

857
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,240
I need. 
Not only is it asking for what I

858
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:50,080
need, but even taking making 
space to acknowledge that I do 

859
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,120
have a need because for so long 
I've tried to appear needless. 

860
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,240
And this was a conversation I 
had with my dad a few years ago 

861
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,520
about this. 
I would be like, you didn't get,

862
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,920
you didn't do anything for me. 
He was like, son, you never 

863
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,880
asked me for anything. 
And I realized, wow, I didn't. 

864
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,360
I would always say, hey, my mom 
said I need or my mom told me to

865
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,400
tell you dot dot dot. 
And I'm witnessing that even now

866
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,760
how difficult it is even to ask 
for things like sexually, like 

867
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,440
if I just want some head or if I
want to have sex right. 

868
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,640
Just being able to ask for that 
is something that is a challenge

869
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,800
also because there's even a 
stigma around like asking 

870
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,960
directly for sex, right? 
Like you're supposed to be 

871
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,040
smooth or be cool or like you 
got to do it in such an artful 

872
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,320
way. 
That is also manipulative. 

873
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,840
So there's this line to that. 
You got to navigate even in 

874
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,080
that. 
So while I may not identify 

875
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,040
someone who has an addiction, I 
think that there are these 

876
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,040
tendencies that you've spoken 
about throughout the podcast 

877
00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:00,160
interview that we've done, the 
secrecy, the ongoing Dr. and 

878
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,160
force for an outcome, the 
attachment or even non 

879
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,720
attachment of the 
objectification. 

880
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,640
There are all these things that 
have maybe one or two might not 

881
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:18,040
indicate a need for treatment 
necessarily, but the combination

882
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:24,080
of things and the consequences 
and the the harm that can be 

883
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,720
done to self or another person 
being where we can look at what 

884
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,200
the line is for addiction. 
So I, I just thank you for 

885
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,120
bringing all of this into my 
awareness and it's something 

886
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,880
that I can take immediately and 
start to self reflect on for 

887
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,680
myself and my own personal 
behavior. 

888
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,640
So I thank you for that. 
Yeah, I think part of the reason

889
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,840
why I came, you know, I decided 
to do this was, you know, I was 

890
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,680
thinking about this a lot, you 
know, like I said, for, you 

891
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,360
know, I can only imagine, you 
know, because obviously I've 

892
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,480
experienced it. 
You get this diagnosis. 

893
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,960
It is emotional toll. 
It does, like, feel like your 

894
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,120
whole world's upside down. 
You do feel like, oh, my God, 

895
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,040
I'm never going to have a life. 
No one's ever going to love me. 

896
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,400
But I feel like, you know, like 
I said, when you're a sex addict

897
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,040
and your sex is the wait for you
to numb your pain out or, you 

898
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,520
know, you get those urges to 
numb your pain out and then you 

899
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,320
can't because this interferes 
with that. 

900
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,720
If you're having an outbreak, if
you're in pain, you have 

901
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:19,120
blisters. 
Whatever's going on, I realize 

902
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,080
I'm like, oh, well, I'm not the 
first sex addict with herpes. 

903
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,680
I certainly won't be the last, 
but I still like, I don't really

904
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,480
find people talking about that 
who are sex addicts and have 

905
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,240
herpes too, because it's 
something like, how do I 

906
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:34,280
navigate this? 
How do I navigate when myself 

907
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,240
soothing method or you know, 
well, obviously I'm trying not 

908
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:39,800
to do that. 
So being sober from it, but it's

909
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,800
like, what do you do when my 
body is in so much emotional 

910
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,520
pain? 
It's saying I need to escape 

911
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,040
from this pain. 
Let me get sexually triggered. 

912
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,880
Let's get the urges to act out 
because we want to numb ourself 

913
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,640
out. 
And then you realize, well, 

914
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,800
that's what got me into trouble 
in the 1st place. 

915
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,760
That might be the reason why I 
have this rolling out or, and 

916
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,960
it's also like, well, what if 
there are physical, if you are 

917
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,440
taking this causes physical harm
to me and to other people. 

918
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,760
It's like then I'm left kind of 
like this weird situation of 

919
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,280
like, well, what do I do? 
How do I navigate this? 

920
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,160
What, what does this mean for my
life? 

921
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,240
What does it mean for healthy 
sexuality and all these 

922
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,160
different things? 
And it's like, I feel like 

923
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,440
there's another whole added 
weight to it of being a sex 

924
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,960
addict because it's like, you 
know, other people can partake 

925
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,360
in sex in a normal, healthy way.
For me, I kind of describing it 

926
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,600
lately of like, it's like 
opening the bottle and I can't 

927
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,320
put the bottle down. 
So what do I do when this 

928
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,760
happens? 
Because it's like it did, it did

929
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,760
trigger addiction withdrawal. 
And I'm like, this is new, this 

930
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,560
is scary, this is uncertainty 
about the future. 

931
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,760
Who's ever going to love me? 
Those thoughts absolutely popped

932
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,440
into my head. 
Oh, I was going to love a sex 

933
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:52,680
addict. 
I was going to love a herpes too

934
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,600
sex act, all of these things. 
And then actually I started 

935
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,120
thinking about what you said on 
the phone call of if I ever 

936
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,440
decide to date and I start 
meeting someone and you know 

937
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,240
this person, if they do have 
interest in me, they'll have 

938
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:12,120
interest in me for me, not just 
for the sex addiction, not just 

939
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,440
because I'm herpes too positive 
they'll look beyond that. 

940
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,360
And maybe right now I don't 
fully believe that, but I'm 

941
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,440
having starting to have hope 
that, yeah, maybe this will mean

942
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,960
I'll find a better connection 
than what I have been before. 

943
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,560
I'll know when I'm ready because
I have to come to terms with 

944
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,120
this. 
And I'm still struggling with 

945
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,480
that. 
And it's also, like you said 

946
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,360
earlier, right, this, this ended
up being a superpower, right? 

947
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:41,760
You, you start to believe a 
thing and you start to then have

948
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,040
the hope, right? 
And it's just something that as 

949
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:50,400
you have more experiences with 
it, you start to experience more

950
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:53,040
of that thing that you're 
experiencing. 

951
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,240
Like the more we do a thing, the
better we get at it. 

952
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,600
So the more you have a self 
acceptance, the more self 

953
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,680
accepting you're going to 
become. 

954
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,880
So I, I just man, I'm excited. 
I appreciate this interview, 

955
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,920
this podcast episode, and I want
to ask before, because we're 

956
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,680
just getting close to time. 
I want to ask if there was one 

957
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,400
thing that you wanted to leave 
people with or if there is any, 

958
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,600
any number of things that you 
want to leave people with. 

959
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,600
I invite you to just have the 
space to share what it is that 

960
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,520
you want to have somebody who 
might be where you were six 

961
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,720
months ago, two years ago even, 
or even before in recovery. 

962
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:35,880
I think about all of your 
intersections of identity, from 

963
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,360
being adopted to having to take 
care of your parents at such a 

964
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,040
young age, dealing with the 
father, with depression, dealing

965
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,760
with sex addiction, love 
addiction, and the spending 

966
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,240
addiction. 
Whatever it is that you want to 

967
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:52,920
share, I want to just leave you 
the space to go ahead and do so.

968
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,360
And then when you feel complete,
you let me know and then we'll 

969
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,560
wrap this up. 
I think I kind of want to let 

970
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,840
people know that, you know, that
I think there's people that have

971
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,000
definitely gotten herpes too. 
And they're not, they're not 

972
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,640
addicts. 
They're just people struggling 

973
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,720
emotionally with this and, you 
know, feeling like, oh, my God, 

974
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:15,480
this is my whole identity. 
This has ruined me completely. 

975
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,240
And, you know, obviously herpes 
too, is a little bit different 

976
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:21,840
than sex addiction. 
But I think I kind of speak for 

977
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:26,880
any recovering addict of like, 
accepting and knowing that, 

978
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,920
yeah, this is part of me, but 
it's not all of me. 

979
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,760
And I think This is why I'm 
saying this, you know, for 

980
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:34,520
myself. 
So I hope I believe this myself 

981
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,120
too because I'm still trying to 
believe it. 

982
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,520
Like, yeah, herpes too does 
suck. 

983
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,360
It is part of it is part of me. 
It's part of something I have to

984
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,560
live with, you know, for the 
rest of my life, just like 

985
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,800
addiction. 
But I learned to live with it 

986
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,680
though. 
It doesn't deny me from having a

987
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,360
life. 
It doesn't deny me from being 

988
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,880
around friends, family, doing 
all the things I love. 

989
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,760
It's an inconvenience, just like
addiction is at times. 

990
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,360
And someday it's going to be 
worse than others. 

991
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,400
I understand that. 
But I think I'm want to say it's

992
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,480
just like these people and all 
of us is like we're not just 

993
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,920
herpes too. 
I don't say I don't write herpes

994
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,160
too on any type of government 
forum. 

995
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,720
When I'm signing stuff, I write 
my name down because that's who 

996
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:16,280
I am. 
I'm not just I don't write my 

997
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:21,160
name as John sex love, you know,
spending social anorexic herpes 

998
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:22,880
too positive person. 
I just write my name down. 

999
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:24,560
That's it. 
I'm me. 

1000
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,520
This is part of me. 
Wish I would rec honestly I wish

1001
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,560
it wasn't. 
But I got to live with it just 

1002
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,000
like I live with addiction. 
And I've gotten to that point 

1003
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,920
with my addiction that I I'm 
more than my addiction. 

1004
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,920
I'm not just a sex, I'm not just
a sex craze addict addict. 

1005
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,240
I'm me. 
And maybe with herpes too in 

1006
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:46,520
time. 
And I think I'm slowly getting 

1007
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,520
there. 
I'm realizing it's not just me. 

1008
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:50,520
I'm me. 
It doesn't define me. 

1009
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:52,760
I'm more than just the 
diagnosis. 

1010
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,400
And I think that's how I'm 
trying to feel. 

1011
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:58,040
Yeah. 
Thank you. 

1012
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,640
We can talk about this off the 
recording if you want, but if 

1013
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:10,480
you want people to be able to 
contact or connect with you, let

1014
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,480
me know and we can sort that 
out. 

1015
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,600
I don't want to put that in here
and have people blowing you up. 

1016
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:20,040
So yeah, I appreciate you, man. 
Thank you. 

1017
00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:24,080
This was a great conversation 
and I think this will be very 

1018
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:28,240
useful to people. 
I appreciate it and I appreciate

1019
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:29,560
having the time to talk about 
this. 

1020
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:35,600
All right, so that concludes 
this episode of something 

1021
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,320
positive for positive people. 
Please like rate, review, share,

1022
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:43,200
subscribe to the podcast and 
just share this with people. 

1023
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:50,920
We have the herpes survey still 
acceptingresponses@spfpp.org/herpes

1024
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:55,480
Dash survey help us get the most
accurate information that we can

1025
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,800
possibly get in regards to 
herpes and stigma so that we can

1026
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,080
have more accurate 
representation of this 

1027
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,480
community, so that we can get 
better treatment, that we can 

1028
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,920
get better testing and we can 
get better treatment testing. 

1029
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,120
What's the other thing? 
Information in general about it.

1030
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,320
So, oh, I just hit the stop 
button up here. 

1031
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,480
I was trying to set myself up to
hit stop without that long pause

1032
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,720
in between me hitting the button
and then having to find it and 

1033
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:26,440
hit actually stop. 
So that's it. 

1034
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:31,280
I appreciate y'all for listening
and till next time stay present 

1035
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:33,440
still.