Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People.
I'm Courtney Brain. Something Positive for Positive
People is a 501C3 nonprofit organization that serves as the
go to hub of sexual Health Communication resources
specifically for people navigating herpes stigma.
In 2017, this organization actually began as a podcast that
interviewed people who were more so struggling with suicidation
because of their herpes diagnosis.
And that evolved into just talking to people about their
experience. Navigating herpes statement to
give people who might be struggling a little bit of a
safe road map to where they can just TuneIn, listen to podcasts,
episodes, take what they need, and then be able to go on and
apply in their daytoday lives. As a nonprofit, one of the
things that we do here is advocate for the integration of
these lived experiences, which essentially highlight the
communication aspects of talking about sexual health and
relationship intentions and expectations into sex education
resources, so that we are able to further minimize the
potentiality of new sexually transmitted infections being
passed on. Today I am here with Laura of 0
Proof Nation and I forget how long ago we met, but I remember
that you came to one of the I don't know if it was a therapy
group, one of the group therapy herpes things, or if it was just
a support group in general, or what do you want.
You want me to pitch in and chime in?
Yeah, Hello. Yeah.
Hi Courtney. I think it was this sort of
interactive webinar type thing about being social with other
people who had an HSV diagnosis. It was over zoom, it was maybe
it was a support type group, but it wasn't therapy.
It was definitely a support aspect and I think that was
sometime early last year, maybe, Oh, it was last year.
I feel like it was so much longer ago than that because.
Well, this is still pandemic time.
So it's like what is time? I think it was early last year
or maybe late 2021. I don't remember.
I can see that. I I think it might have been
2021. OK, OK.
But yeah, I recall early on seeing you talk a lot about like
sobriety and not drinking. And that was something that I
think that you kind of plant seeds in people's heads when you
just kind of live in your own way and you're expressive and
you put that out there. But one of the things I wanted
to tell you was in July, I decided to take a month off from
drinking. And during that month of not
drinking, I also didn't masturbate.
This was interesting. So I don't know which one of
these had like more of an influence, but I was able to
write the first draft of a book for something positive, for
positive people. I was also able to what else did
I do during that month? I got done and I was like, oh,
this is what I can do. Not that I drank a lot, but it
was something that I had more energy for not being hung over.
And also the discipline that came with saying no to, wanting
to go out and just drink or go to a friend's house and just
drink and talk. Because one of the things that
in my experience, I've learned about alcohol is that I have
historically used alcohol to make myself more present.
But the reality is that's made me less present.
And after having some experiences with not drinking
alcohol and being in an environment where maybe other
people are drinking, I recognize just how present I am and how
uncomfortable it can be to be around all of these people
making an attempt to be present through alcohol, which offers
sort of this illusion of, I guess, connectedness, you know,
and everyone's like, oh, hey, if we're all drinking, we're more
connected. Whereas it's kind of like a
disconnection from being present.
Because when you are present and you kind of feel everything
happening around you, it can be a little bit intense.
So the thing that I wanted to say was, all right, July, I
decided not to drink. And then I think I had, I went
to karaoke and they had these little juices things there.
And I was like, ooh, that looks good.
I want that. And then I learned that there
was alcohol. And then I was like, oh, Dang,
that messed up my sobriety. But Oh well, we're here now.
And like, I didn't get drunk. I don't even think I got tipsy,
to be honest. But there was that time and then
another time where I had a Margarita and I was like, yeah,
this don't do it for me anymore because I don't see the alcohol.
I see the dollar amount that's being spent now.
And I'm like, you know what, $10 to try and be present when I
know that. Not like me.
Just not drinking makes me more present.
I don't think it's worth it anymore.
So I want to say that seeing you live out loud in that way, even
if I just see a post every now and then or something like that,
was something that I think contributed to my decision to
explore that. And I mean to this day, I I
don't have a desire to drink. I'll go out places and I'll
just, you know, not drink. And it's as simple as that.
The most uncomfortable part of it is when I want to go to a bar
and it's like this bartender to ask me what I want and I'm about
to order something that's non alcoholic, how are they going to
view me? Are they going to think I'm
cheating, that I'm not going to tip?
And can I stay up here at the bar and hang out like I would if
I were drinking right? It's another, it's another layer
of stigma. We've we've gone through enough,
right? Yeah, it's another layer and
also another sort of side point is that you mentioned that.
The cost of alcoholic beverages, well, not out.
Cost a lot too these days, and that's another story for another
time. But wow, like you wrote the
first draft of a book just by not drinking for a month.
I'm so impressed. Congratulations.
That is insane. Thank you.
And it's it's for something positive, for positive people,
essentially condensing the podcast itself from 300 whatever
episodes at the time of its release down into a book, just
kind of sharing my face because people ask me all the time,
well, how did you deal with it? What happened to you?
And I'm like, it's not fair for me to ask you to go and listen
to the podcast because that story's, like, sprinkled in
there in bits and pieces. So instead, I'll be able to ask,
oh, did you purchase the book or something like that?
So yeah, it's, it's nice. And I had a lot of contributions
from some of my board members about different parts of it.
And I've I've had a lot more clarity, of course, but general
creativity overall and being able to more clearly see further
out. Like I I've always been the kind
of person who I look right down, take one step in front of me,
but I'm able to see like a few more steps out in front of me
just from this clarity, I would say.
And in addition to that, I don't know how much, I do know how
much alcohol had to do with this.
So I've been very mindful of, like my health lately and in
attempting to, I have had high blood pressure for like 12
years, probably since I was born, to be completely honest.
But I received the warning of, hey, we're going to have to get
you on medication for like the last 10 years.
I've just been blowing it off and I've just not like added
salt to my food. But instead of like, what I've
learned is that it's not just adding salt to your food.
It's like the sodium that's in a lot of the foods that I've
eaten. And so when I would drink, I
would lose any and all sense of control.
I could eat a whole pizza, 12 chicken wings, drench it in
ranch and eat toasted Ravio. I would just, I remember, you
know, these things, I can eat a lot, but it doesn't mean I have
to eat a lot. So I've been able to incorporate
some of that presence and mindfulness into my eating
habits. And like in that process, while
my goal wasn't necessarily to lose weight, it's just been to
lower my blood pressure. I have lost a significant amount
of weight and I credit that too to not drinking.
You were crushing it. Yeah.
This was what I wanted to talk to you about.
Like I wanted to just save it for the podcast and get that
real response from you. But no, I want to thank you.
Between you and there's someone I follow on Instagram.
In Australia, she recently started posting about her own
journey with sobriety, and I'm I'm just seeing it a few
different places. There's also the sober sex per I
want to say. Yeah, Tony.
Tony. Yeah, that's.
Good. She's a good friend of mine.
She just wrote a book called Dry Humping.
Oh, that's fine, yeah. But yeah.
It's great. Yeah.
Like, seeing these influences has really been something that's
helped me in my personal life. So I wanted to bring you on here
and say thank you for that and thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate you putting yourself out there.
That means so much to me. And you caught me on a day where
I was kind of just feeling major like the imposter syndrome and
just kind of general being down about a lot.
So that means a lot to me. Don't take away all of your
credit though, like you did the work and.
And I can't believe you've written the first chapter of a
book. I'm just like wow, that inspires
me because you you know, I I I don't know if anyone out there
listening is is is even familiar with me and and if not that's
totally cool. So it gives you an intro to who
I am. But I've been alcohol free,
sober booze free for 16 years and so that's the better part of
my adult life. I I got sober when I was 24 and.
And so I've I've spent most of my 20s, all of my 30s, and now
into my first year of my 40s without without drinking
alcohol. And and so, you know, maybe in
the beginning I had some, like, spurts of clarity where I was
like, wow, it's nice to not have a hangover.
I still love not having hangovers, by the way.
It's one of the best perks of. Not drinking alcohol.
To this day, it's still one of my favorite things.
But now I'm just, you know, living life.
So I've got to, I've got to find that discipline again to start
writing, you know, the first draft of my book.
Thank you, Courtney. Yeah, for sure.
Amazing 24 seems like a pretty young age to decide to just stop
drinking. Especially, you know, most
people are starting to make money and being able to go out
and socialize with friends, going to the bars, clubs,
etcetera. What made you decide to give up
drinking at age 20? Four.
Well, it wasn't one of these. Like, I'm sober curious.
I want to be mindful with my consumption.
You know, there there wasn't any kind of language then about
sober curiosity and about trying out a month without drinking
like a dry January or sober October or dry July.
It was you're either an alcoholic or you're normal and
that. That was the language that I was
coming into. That was the discourse, and that
was the stigma against people who didn't drink alcohol.
I didn't have a a sort of a choice in the way like, Oh well,
I guess I'm going to quit drinking.
I was well, I put myself, frankly, in a lot of really
dangerous situations and had a lot of negative consequences.
I only drank for six years. Starting from age 18 until 24.
And there's a saying that the lot of people who who sort of
have this history with with drinking alcohol and substance
use disorder, they say, you know, first it was fun, then it
was fun with problems, and then it was just problems.
And so that was my trajectory in the course of six years.
By the end, by the last year and a half, I was hospitalized for
alcohol poisoning twice. And and and then on top of
countless negative sexual situations, dangerous, you know,
just putting myself in vehicles with people who were drinking so
many things that I vaguely remember.
And then, of course, there's a lot of stuff that I don't
remember. And and so after my second
hospitalization for alcohol poisoning, I really felt scared.
Something was different. Like I said, I've been, I've
been, you know, rushing in an ambulance to the ER once before
for alcohol, and it scared me. But something inside internally,
it just hadn't clicked yet. And so I, you know, I kept
drinking after that, not the day after, maybe not even the month
after, But you, I didn't have a plan.
I didn't have any tools in my tool belt and I was too young.
I was 22 at that time, so. The second time, like I said,
something internally clicked. I don't know what it was.
I didn't think in terms of forever because that sounded way
too scary and all I all I knew was that I needed professional
help and and I didn't know what that was going to look like or
what my life would would end up looking like.
But I know that once I started this outpatient intensive
outpatient program, I just really liked not having
hangovers. And that was, that was the
biggest thing that just kept me going.
And of course over time, my relationships with family and
friends and some friends I had to cut out because they were
toxic. But maybe they would think of me
as toxic, you know, you know, if the shoe fits it, it depends.
But all all throughout, you know, I just, again, I never
thought in terms of forever. I just knew that I I was
starting to feel better. And again, there weren't any non
alcoholic options back then other than soda or milk.
So I was like this is I'm like, I'm not in an episode of The
Brady Bunch, like I want something else.
But you know in the first year I wasn't looking for for non
alcoholic options. I just needed to stay sober.
For me, that was what it was and and as I got more comfortable
not drinking, I was navigating being a.
Mid 20 something without alcohol in sort of the quote UN quote
prime of my young adult life. You know, it was prime yuppie
territory, going out to happy hour, going to weddings, being
in weddings, like all of the things.
And you know, I just, I felt so excluded because I wasn't the
one drinking alcohol. So it was more of a thing that I
needed to do to save my life, frankly to to get sober.
And now it's turned into like. My life, Of course.
You know, there's a reason I'm on this podcast.
So who's going to, who's going to address the elephant in the
room? Right.
Well, before we transition to that, something that came to
mind as you talked about, you know, being hospitalized twice
for alcohol poisoning, I remember the last time I prayed,
I was about 20, between 24 and 25 years old.
And I said, God, listen, if you got a lesson to show me, I need
you to just don't take off a limb.
Don't put me in a car accident. Just like, show me I'm doing the
right thing and I'll just keep doing that.
Don't, like, blow my life up with a terrible thing happening
to teach me a lesson? Like I'm, I'm good at learning
lessons by positive reinforcement, right?
And so my question for you is how can someone kind of see the
signs before it hits to or it starts to get to a point where
they put themselves in dangerous situations or before they end up
hospitalized for alcohol poisoning where they may think
that they may want to assess their relationship to alcohol?
Well, I would. First of all it is.
It is purely individual to every single person.
And drinking 2 glasses of wine and feeling a little headachy
and dizzy might be someone's like this is my sign that I
can't feel like this anymore. And for someone else it might
take them a hospitalization to realize that they can't keep
putting themselves and others in danger.
So it's everyone has a personal sort of like.
Set point or a point of of no return.
And I would I would certainly hope that people don't reach the
point where they are getting hospitalized for alcohol
poisoning. You know, I didn't get my
stomach pumped but I was heavily monitored throughout the night
for for both of my you know, stays in in ERS.
And you know it's it's difficult because like when you're in it
you're not thinking rationally like when you're when you're
intoxicated from alcohol it's we know that it's.
It's called intoxicated for a reason.
It's a toxin, it's a poison. And and when it's in your
system, it affects so many different things, not just
physiologically, but neurologically, emotionally, all
of the all of the things. And so your brain is just not
thinking rationally and it can be very difficult to access any
kind of any kind of not will, but just like self-control.
Selfcontrol, impulse control. Like stopping yourself before it
gets worse. So you know, and I'm telling you
like I'm, I thought of myself as quite responsible beforehand and
still do. But I would, I would always
impose limits on myself. Tonight is A2 drink night for
me. I'm going to space it out with
water and I and I did. And then something would change
and I would drink another drink or drink it.
There were or there were plenty of nights where I had a quote UN
quote normal night where I ended up back home.
That you know, there there wasn't Uber back then, but I
would either like Metro home, take a cab home, whatever the
case may be, get home safely, be in bed.
Nothing, nothing went wrong. But just as many nights
something would go wrong and and then of course then there were
those handful of nights that were really traumatic.
So it's really difficult to say like how can how can you stop
yourself from getting to that point.
I think now there are so many more.
Beverage options that provide social elixirs and social
gelling, whether they're functional beverages, whether
they're light cannabis beverages, if people want, sort
of. Some sort of different mood or
mood enhancing. You know I'm I'm not here to
judge what what someone does but it's it's ultimately going to
still be healthier than than drinking alcohol.
But there are other options that they can have so that they don't
feel like they have to have alcohol to get to a different
place. But it's really hard once you're
once you already have alcohol in your system to make those self
controlling decisions. So I would just encourage people
to. To be sober curious.
To be more mindful of their consumption.
There's so many great books and podcasts out there.
One of the, like, sort of bibles of sober curiosity is called
Sober Curious. I mean it it's it doesn't have
to be any more obvious than that.
And it's it's a really great book on just getting curious
about your consumption, treating it like a scientific experiment,
trying one month of not drinking alcohol.
It's a lot more difficult if it's like a food issue.
Someone has, you know, you can't stop eating, but you can't stop
drinking. You can't stop drinking.
It's hard. It's not easy.
I'm not gonna lie, like, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it.
If that's something that's part of your, like, life, it's gonna
be difficult. But like, it's so worth it.
It's just so worth it. And even if you, even if you
drink less like. There are a lot of people who
can moderate or can just drink less alcohol and that is
ultimately that's that's harm reduction.
So it's it's much better than getting drunk if you're drinking
like a glass or two of wine or a few beers, you know, spread out
throughout the night as opposed to like a six pack of beer or a
whole bottle of wine, like, again, reduction is key.
So it doesn't have to be a total, you know, a total like
abstinence. But yeah, I would just, I would
just, you know, invite people. Rather than caution people,
Invite people to be a little more curious about what they put
in their systems. As you were talking, a story
came to mind and I had a little bit of a aha moment because
personal story time. Yeah, so I I remember I met
someone and we had sex while we were both drinking.
And then we had sex when neither of us were drinking.
So we met for the first time. We connected.
Things were going well. We negotiated things.
I disclosed. I have RP She doesn't.
First night time, whatever we want to call it that We hooked
up. Phenomenal, memorable.
Mindblowing. Couldn't wait to do it again.
A little bit of time passed, thought I'd never see her again
and she reached out and was going to be in the same place as
me for another event that I was taking part of.
And we met up this time and at this time I wasn't drinking and
I let her know. It's like, hey, you know, I'm
playing with this not drinking thing.
And she was like, oh, OK, well, I've been wondering about that
myself. So I want to drink.
So cool. We get together and we're not
drinking and. I in hindsight now I recognize
that she seemed to have needed that alcohol to perform in the
way that she was performing, and for me it felt as if I
recognized that, like I was just more present and in tune with
what was happening around me, not drinking.
So I was able to pick up on things that may have been
present before that weren't now. Like I now from, you know,
having this conversation with you wonder if the second time it
was like, more of her thinking in her head because I'm I
pointed this out to her. I was like, hey, it seems like
you're making an attempt to end these sex sessions a lot faster.
And I didn't register that until after we had like a check in,
after we had party ways for the weekend.
And she started crying. Like when I pointed that out to
her, I was like, it seemed like that's what was happening.
And I know we had a lot of conversations about like her
past trauma. So I kind of knew what not to
do, what to do, and so in communicating with her.
Afterwards, she just was like balling.
She was like, I just, I don't no one's ever noticed her ass.
And she just felt like, so seen from that experience and you
know her. I am kind of like feeling a
little bit bad because, I mean, not because I made her cry, but
because it's like I wish that I would have had words and
language to mention that in the moment, but it was just like an
avoidance of presence for her with alcohol, because for her
using alcohol. Meant that she was able to be
more present and avoid whatever the real presence would bring up
for her. And this time that wasn't the
case. But the thought that I had was
maybe she actually wasn't OK with me having herpes because
she didn't have herpes and that's why it was like sped up
and she didn't want to like hurt my feelings.
This is just a thought not to say that this is the thought
because this is, it's an interesting thought.
I mean, I I don't know. I'm not her, but I don't think
that was probably that. It was just probably the fact
that as a woman who's had sex with and without alcohol,
without alcohol, all of the emotions are much more front of
mind. And it I have felt emotionally
raw after intercourse before in different, you know, different
points in my life. So it's just possible that
something about the conversation sparked that in her or who
knows, I don't. I mean did she you said that you
had a conversation with her to begin with and she heard you and
registered. I hope who knows, But I mean, I
don't know if she was aware of the fact that you had HSV the
second time. Yeah, yeah, we we talked about
all of that, right. But I'm just like, then why
would she rush through it if she, I mean, just if it bothered
her, like don't do it in the 1st place.
Like I don't. So I don't think that's, that's
what was going on. There's probably something else
there. But it's so interesting how when
you take away the alcohol, a lot of, I mean it's usually alcohol
is, is is, it's a symptom. It's not, it's not what's really
going on. It can mask things.
It can help it. It's it's a coping tool.
It's a negative coping strategy. But it's a coping strategy to
feel, to quote UN quote, feel more confident, feel more
comfortable, feel more at ease in the in the moment, so to
speak. But it ultimately and usually
ends up in worse anxiety the next day and and you know I used
to I used to drink because I for a for a variety of reasons.
But only until I got sober did I realize that I was self
medicating over a lot of undiagnosed mental health stuff.
I have OCD. It's very debilitating actually.
The fact that I'm able to maintain different contracts and
work and be you know a figure in my industry while still battling
a lot of like mental demons and not drinking is a is a huge feat
for me. But it's it's something that,
you know, drinking alcohol just made it kind of it muted it a
little bit. It just made it fuzzier.
It wasn't as sharp in my head. I have, you know, a history with
panic disorder, generalized anxiety, and and of course a lot
of trauma, big T and little T One of my big T's is obviously
what landed me on this podcast. And it's not, it's not the
diagnosis per se, but it certainly is the diagnosis.
At the same time, it was a result of date rape and it was
the first, it was the night I lost my virginity.
So it was the trifecta, losing my virginity via date rape and
getting herpes as you know, right away.
And so for my whole adult sex life, I have had to navigate
having HS V2. I've not had a breakout since my
initial diagnosis, maybe once, a few years into it, but that's
what is time. Let's see, that's 18 years.
I was 22 when I lost my virginity, which is old for some
people, but I was 22. It was the night before college
graduation and it was with the boy that I had a huge crush on
my whole four years. And I went into the situation
very consensually. And then the way it happened was
not consensual and it was not with protection.
And that's not something that I consented to.
I I was in health class, I remember all of the stories and
I was like, you are not coming near me without a condom, like
let's go have some late night food.
And anyway, suffice it to say is that before I knew it, I mean
how graphic? Like how graphic can I get?
Or how should I? I'll put it in the show notes
like heads up okay. Well, I don't wanna as.
Comfortable as you are sharing, cuz I want this to just be you
sharing your experience, right? So I mean, yeah, I went in very
consensually. I wanted to have sex with him.
I had a huge crush on him. It wasn't ever love.
It wasn't love, but it was like, I had a very I held a torch for
this guy and I wanted to have sex with him and I wanted to
lose my virginity to him. I thought, anyway, trouble with
the condom. And I was like, well, why don't
we, why don't we go cuz I didn't know what went on.
I mean, we glossed over that in health class.
Like, I've never seen one in real life, really.
I mean it's just like and so we went to like this late night,
late night food place and came back and you know watched TV and
had our food. And then like I kind of fell
asleep. I we were sober, by the way, we
were not, we were not drinking alcohol.
So I was sober. I was still in my drinking days,
but I was, I was not drinking that night because I wanted to
be present for this. And then the next thing I knew,
he was inside me without a condom and I didn't really
realize. And you, you cut out a little
bit earlier. You said you fell asleep.
I was kind of like food coma E on the bed, like awake but not
totally awake, sort of in that, like liminal state where you're
kind of falling asleep. But I was, I was not passed out.
I'm kind of sleepy. And we were not drinking
alcohol. And you know, the next thing I
know he's inside of me without a condom.
And I was really kind of paralyzed because I didn't know
what to do. I was like, I'm having sex,
right? Like, I think I'm having sex.
But then I was like, but this is not the way that I wanted it to
be. But like, what am I supposed to
say? What can I say?
Like, should I get him to get off of me?
Like, is he wearing? I was.
There were so many things that were going through my head at
the same time. And you know, like, I do realize
that there are some people that just don't know that they have
HSV because there's so many people.
Just like, you know, I think COVID taught us a lot of things
about being asymptomatic, right? You can be asymptomatic but
still carry and pass it along. And I mean, I thought we had a
safe sex discussion. But like, I had never had a
partner. So I knew that I was coming to
the table with a clean slate. But we didn't really talk about
a lot of those things. We were still kids like we were.
We were kids. And the thing that I'm even more
sort of like, embarrassed or ashamed about is that I went
back the next night and willingly engaged in unprotected
sex because I thought that that was the only way that he was
going to have sex with me. And and so a week, a week later
I started getting like the worst pain in my life in my genitals
and I didn't know what to do. I was with my parents.
I didn't know how to drive so I couldn't drive myself anywhere
because we were my my dad's a retired U.S. diplomat so we were
overseas. I was working at the embassy as
my as my part time job as my summer internship.
And so I just, I had to tell my mom I was like, I think I either
have a yeast infection or an STD.
And I need, you know, I need your help.
Like, I need to go to the to to the health unit at the embassy.
And that's when they told me. I mean, they didn't, they did
not really have a good bedside manner there.
They weren't like, you know, oh gosh, we're so sorry about this.
Like, they were just like you're not going to be able to have a
child if you have an outbreak. Like, you're going to, you know,
all of these just, it was just traumatizing.
And of course, then I had to get, like, HIV tests and
chlamydia test and gonorrhea. And I was not prepared for an
pregnancy test like all of the things I was.
Again, I was, I was a child. 22 feels so old when you're 22, but
you're a baby at 22. And it was just a lot to have to
digest. And all of it was because
something was done in a way that I didn't.
I didn't agree to. I didn't sign off on that.
And it left me with having to navigate my whole life with with
needing to disclose to people, because I was never going to
willingly put someone in the same position that I was put in.
And I've gotten rejected so many times over the years because
there is, as you are well aware, Courtney, there is a humongous
stigma still around herpes and people are like, I don't want to
get the herp. And like, I mean, when I hear
stuff like that, it just, it just digs right into me.
It hurts it just because people just don't have the education.
They're starting to get more with resources that are out
there like yours. But there's just, there's just
so much of it that that perpetuates because there's
this, there's this asymptomatic shedding for a lot of people and
they don't realize that they have it.
And I did, by the way, confront this guy on on a phone call
shortly after I got diagnosed. And I said, you gave me herpes.
Like, how could you do that? I didn't have the right language
to really address him either. And he was like, I didn't know.
I'm so sorry. What are you talking about?
Like a lot of denial there, but
he probably didn't know that he had it either.
Of course, overtime, I've just had to forgive him because that
lets me off the hook. I was living with a lot of
resentment and it was just hurting me.
But it's it has been difficult over the years to find partners
who either have had their own experience with it, have had
partners with it or are just like well read and understand by
the way like having herpes. And in the age of COVID, that's
a whole other thing that was not fun to navigate.
Because you're you're, you know, you're you're dealing with two
different things that can be spread.
But we don't know that herpes isn't deadly.
It's not. You know, it's it's not.
And it's manageable. And I've hadn't.
I've been taking medication for years and years and years.
But gosh, it was a juicy the way that it happened.
So, you know, sometimes things are really ironic.
I'd never had sex before, and then all of a sudden I had
herpes. Thank you for going there and
sharing that story with me. Are you OK?
Need a breath or break or anything?
Yeah, well, I just. I took a I just took a breath.
I knew we were going to go to some places.
I'm I'm in. I'm divorced from enough from
the situation. I thought you was about to say
divorce from him. I was about to ask you where
like how that relationship. I mean I mean that I've I've had
I've had a lot of time and therapy and you know I'm I've
worked through a lot of that and but gosh I still had a lot of
self flagellation. And and you know only only
recently you know in the past few years when when I think I I
found you and and I found a couple of other blogs out there
that were really doing some powerful things around talking
about herpes. Is that is is when I put my
diagnosis on my on my dating site and I'm not on the dating
site anymore. I've been I've been seeing
someone for a year now and it's just a really wonderful
relationship. But yeah, I mean, I was just
like, I'm tired of getting rejected.
And even though I'd had practice with disclosure, you know, in
the, in the early days, I would have a lot of emotions around
disclosure, like unload some of my trauma trauma dumping to
people. And over time and as I, as I did
age, like I got more comfortable with just sharing the facts
like, hey, I have a skin disorder and you know, or
whatever you want to. However, I ended up saying it.
But, you know, I was just like, I was tired of having that
conversation and instead I just wanted to put it on my on my
dating profile and then we could have conversations around that.
But at least the, you know, at least the cat was out of the bag
that way. But man, I mean, I'm not going
to lie like it's been, it's been one of the most, like, difficult
things to navigate through. And then having herpes and being
a sober person throughout the better part of my adult life is
just a there's a lot to to to wade through.
And so anyone who's going through either of those things
like, you know, gets a gets a vote from me.
But if you have both, it's very difficult.
And I mean I'm here as a resource, trust me, but it's
it's hard. It's really hard.
I'm not going to take that away from anyone.
It's very difficult. But there is, There is like
there is definitely hope. Often times when people will
receive a herpes diagnosis, they have experience to draw from.
From that life beforehand. And they could say, Oh my God,
my sex life is now over because before I had herpes, this is
what my sex life looked like. You didn't have that.
So can you talk me through what some of your thoughts were when
you got your diagnosis, aside from being told you can't have
kids if you have an outbreak? Yeah.
I mean, well, gosh, it's it's hard to go back 18 years, but I
just thought, like, I was. I mean, I just felt like I was
never gonna have sex again. And.
The way that you had sex though? Had sex ever become enjoyable
for you up to that point? Well, I'd never had sex before.
No, no. I mean, like, so the first time
you had sex, you were assault, you were raped, and then you
said you went back and over the next week you got a diagnosis.
So did sex ever become something?
Meaningful to you at all? Like you said that you wanted to
have sex, you wanted to have a sexual experience with this
person, and then you went forward to have sex afterwards.
What was it to you? Did it ever become the kind of
sex you wanted to have as a person?
No, because I mean, it was just like it was two nights like.
OK. It was just twice.
I thought it was over the week like, OK, all right.
I'm no, no, it was just it was two nights.
But even over the week, like like I I don't think I would
have. I mean it's not like years had
passed or months had passed where it definitely did not.
I always thought I was going to lose my virginity to someone
that I cared about, like every girl in every movie, right?
I just thought it was going to be a little more special.
But I thought at the same time that this was going to be a
special experience because I've, I had known him for four years.
Whether or not we were even good friends.
Like, I don't know. But, you know, it wasn't, it
wasn't a stranger. So I had a lot of my own
reservations about calling it date rape for years because I
was like, well, I knew him well, probably just calling it rape.
I was like, I that no, I I knew this person and it wasn't a
violent situation at all. But over over time, as I and as
I've, you know, become more educated about consent and about
the language around all of this, I realized it was not consensual
the way that it happened. I didn't get a say in in how it
happened. And you know, even if he
wouldn't have, even if he wouldn't have known that he was
a carrier, I would have, you know, and I would have liked the
option of knowing that hey, at least like use protection with
me. So, so it took a long time for
sex to become meaningful in any way.
And also, I mean navigating all of that at the same time as
navigating, sort of coming to terms with being bisexual my
whole life. Plot twist.
I feel like that just came out of nowhere.
Yeah, sorry. I mean, I plot twist.
Yeah. I mean, I was, I was, I was
dealing with a lot of internalized biphobia.
Internalized like, I wouldn't say self hatred, but certainly
self. Maybe like ALP apathy, like self
apathy or self just, I don't know.
But like the the having this mental health stuff, having the
the, the drinking stuff and then getting sober, dealing with
having herpes and then dealing with like, you know, these
feelings that I had had the. Community crisis.
Yeah. God, my whole, like 20s had been
essentially a big fat identity crisis because I just didn't.
I wasn't comfortable sharing that I was by.
I didn't do a lot of experimenting.
So I figured it probably didn't. I mean, like, you know, I've
learned a lot, ironically or not ironically, from the sober sex.
1st, from Tawny, you know, she's she's in what's considered I
guess like a heteronormative relationship.
But she talks a lot about you know, that doesn't take away the
fact that she's bisexual. And that gave me a lot of
courage to to share out loud with me like I've been, I've
been in only like you know quote UN quote heteronormative
relationships. But I've always been bisexual
and I've had a few experiments over the years and you know I
haven't done a whole lot, but it doesn't take away my sexuality.
But I was dealing with all of that at the same time and it was
a lot. And so therapy works.
It's amazing. I love therapy.
But yeah, there there was just a lot that I was dealing, a lot
that I was going through, a lot that I was dealing with.
And and we all know that life just like recovery, just like
anything. I mean, it's not linear.
There are a lot of ups and downs and you know, my, my recovery is
is not about drinking anymore. It hasn't been for a long time.
It's about my mental health. It's about the journey that I'm
on with my with my mental health disorders and yeah, OK,
vulnerability hangover. This whole podcast is
vulnerability hangover. No, I I a lot of people go here
with me and then I don't hear from them ever again.
So I I hope that we can at least they'll follow each other on
social media. I have.
There's two questions that are lingering right now for me.
One of which is typically people's first sexual experience
kind of shapes their like turn on.
So sometimes like our traumas can become linked to our turn
ONS in a way you shake your head.
Yeah. Is is that something true for
your even something that your sexual, your first sexual
experience happened in your 20s? Do you find that there are any
components of that that still play a role in your sexual
arousal? Now?
Yes. But it wasn't so much about,
like, it's not like I'm looking for power plays or you know,
being being. I'm still kind of working my way
around language around like sex, positive language.
So it's not about like, you know, rape fantasies or or power
moves or BDSM or because it was not like that.
It was, again, not consensual, but it wasn't like that.
I think how it's sort of affected me up until, you know,
today is that this, this kid was a redhead.
And I've still had kind of, I just, I love gingers as a
result. I don't know, like it's just
what it is. I know you're hiding right now.
I'm sorry. But it's just like that, I mean.
I'm trying to keep my laughing off the mic.
No, it's fine. Please laugh because that's
that's kind of how it now. It sort of played a role for me
that I was just constantly drawn to redheaded guys and gals, but
mostly redheaded guys. And yeah, it's a direct result
of you know me having a huge crush on this guy who ended up
like not knowing it honestly, but like effectively quote, UN
quote rooting my life. But as I've as I've realized
that that's it's not like, yeah, I'd love for there to be a cure.
I know you would too probably maybe.
But at this point it's just like it's it's a dormant thing inside
of me and the medication that I take is more for someone else's
protection rather than my own because I don't get outbreaks.
And if I didn't know that I had it, it wouldn't affect my life
in the least. So it only came up or only comes
up when I have to have disclosure conversations which
have always been like the biggest, biggest source of
anxiety for me. Like it just, you know I'll up
until my my current relationship, I the last guy
that I dated, God, I was like very drawn to him and I
disclosed to him when I wasn't you know like I I didn't There
were no waterworks. It was just like a very factual
conversation. And it was around the time I
think that I went to your, your support session that had some,
like, you know, ways to disclose in sort of a sex positive way.
I think that was the conversation.
It was like disclosure, sex, positive disclosure.
And he seemed to take the, he seemed to take it really well.
But just a few days later he was like, I can't do this.
I can't, you know, I can't put myself in a situation with
someone who has, you know, an STD.
And meanwhile he'd been telling me all these things about how
he's so progressive and how he's so, like, you know, he's been
with so many different types of people and had a very like, you
know, wild sexual appetite or a very varied, you know, I don't
know what but but to be to be rejected over that, it's like
literally one of the most common things ever.
But it really affected me because, again, I was like, I
put, I don't know about you, Courtney, but I every time I had
to put myself out there. It's just emotionally draining,
emotionally exhausting to have to do this disclosure
conversation when for some people it's not.
It's not a big deal. I've gotten really, really good
at starting to like, just take out any of the emotional junk
around it. But I was still getting
rejected. And that's what that's what led
me to just, you know, put the put the herpes on my on my Hinge
profile. I got a lot fewer matches, but
it was on my terms and I felt much more empowered about it.
I didn't meet my my current partner through Hinge, but I
felt so empowered by by putting it forward saying like this is
this is me, I am, you know, I'm medicated, I am well read
educated, I can help you. You can do your own research,
but this is, this is the deal. And you know, if you still want
to talk, you know, hit me up or what, I don't know what it was
and I had it, you know, even I had it like in the pinned in my
pinned post on Instagram for a long, long time because I wanted
people to know that it's OK Like it's totally OK and it's it
needs to be more normalized. But I'll I'll be honest, like
it's been one of the the most challenging things to have to
navigate in my adult life. More so than sobriety.
Like, actually, by a lot. Okay, the second question that I
have for you was you mentioned alcohol sort of being like a
coping thing for all of these other things that you had going
on that were undiagnosed. My curiosity is what's replaced
alcohol, if anything. So like if alcohol was your
crutch for avoiding dealing with said.
OCD and whatever else. All my other stuff, all my
other. Stuff.
Where are you able to put that? And I don't want to call it
addiction, but there's like an energy of compulsion that I
think we tend to invest a lot of ourselves into.
Alcohol can be one, but when you remove alcohol, what's there
next? Is there sex?
Is it sex that's there? Is it vaping?
That's there. Is it?
Reading. Is it obsessively cooking?
Going to the gym? Right.
So, yeah, that's my question, if that's clear enough for you.
Yeah, it's totally clear. And by the way, if, if if that's
not enough, like ADD actually having obsessive compulsive
disorder to that mix because it's it's it's a lot of fun when
you do that. So it's it's not so cut and dry
for me. I didn't have another, you know,
addiction that I replaced it with.
I do have definitely an addictive personality, but in
hindsight I can see that and it's and I'm still in a lot of
trouble as a result. I am not responsible with money
or was not responsible with money.
So it's not that I had a shopping addiction.
It's not that I had a spending problem, a gambling problem, but
I never really knew how to manage my money.
And and so that was going on when I was drinking and when I
got sober and continuing into my 20s and to my 30s.
And now here we are, I'm in a lot of debt.
I'm in a lot of debt and I don't have any savings really to my
name. And it's all stuff that I've had
to just like, you know, work my way through.
And you know, some of it I, I feel like was a direct result of
like after I, after I quit drinking.
I didn't address my money issues, you know, So it's not
like I was, I was replacing any kind of addictive behavior
compulsions, but I was not addressing all of the underlying
things that were going on. And you know, seeing the
therapist, seeing a psychiatrist, dealing with my
drinking and stuff and with my mental health was was one thing.
But I left this other thing completely unchecked.
And and you know, I I've just racked up a lot of credit card
debt and consumer debt and all sorts of things over the years
and it was a little more like insidious and and slow as
opposed to like you know, going out and blowing thousands of
dollars which I didn't have in the 1st place.
So yes and no, not any sort of immediate thing.
Like I I don't smoke. I'm really grateful that I don't
because I know that's even more addictive and harder to quit.
But I don't smoke. I don't, I don't do any other
drugs other than caffeine and I keep it to like 2 cups a day.
And but yeah, I mean, I I had, I had and still have some money
issues that have continued to haunt me because I didn't look
at everything and get help for everything when I probably
should have. Do you find that in dating that
these other things have an influence on disclosures when we
look at disclosure, right, we think about herpes disclosure,
but if I think finances and things like that.
Might even play more of a role with someone that you're wanting
to get into a relationship with. And a lot of times people don't
even make it that far into the conversation.
But that's like something that should come up a lot sooner.
Because if that could be a deal breaker for someone you know, if
you're someone who is equally irresponsible with money, you
know that ain't going to work out.
Or if you're with someone. Who is very good with money,
being able to come in and say, all right, well, you know,
here's how I do things like if we get together, like we'll have
a budget, I'm going to help you get on track.
Those kinds of conversations. Are those difficult for you to
have or do you have them at all? Not anymore, because I'm.
I've been in a committed relationship for a year.
But one of the things that I liked about OkCupid before it
got just crazy is, is all of the questions that it had.
You know, like, is dating someone who's in debt a deal
breaker? Is dating someone who's messy a
deal breaker or overly clean? Because I'm messy, not dirty,
not in that way anyway, and not in any way.
But like, you know, But poor joke aside, like I.
You know, someone being super, super uptight about being, like
so clean that you can't put anything, you know, astray, That
would be a deal breaker for me more than dating someone who's
messy. So it's like, but a lot of those
conversations, like, you know, are you significantly in debt?
Could you date someone who was in debt if there were reasons
behind it? You know, it's different than,
It's different than just being completely irresponsible with
money. Like.
So, yeah, those conversations should should be out there more
so than they are. And frankly, like finances are
probably heavier in my, in my mind than than a herpes
diagnosis. I mean, that's a really easy
thing to work through if you're careful and you're educated
about it. Yeah, I had my, I mean, I didn't
get to the finance discussion with a lot of the people that I
dated because like, it was never really a factor.
Like, it wasn't like let's combine our finances.
Let's talk about like, you know, getting serious.
But, you know, now it's now it's something that we're talking
about. So it's it's definitely, it's
definitely come in more recently.
But yeah, maybe, maybe it doesn't have to come up right
away and dating. I don't know, OK.
Well, thank you for sharing that with me.
I was just curious because it sounded like you had a lot of
different things to potentially disclose and being rejected for
herpes for many of us, a lot of things to disclose, that's for
sure, yeah. So many of us are just like, you
know, someone rejected us because we have herpes and
there's probably so much more to it than that.
And I think that what you've shared is just given a little
bit of a reality check of other things that there are to add to
the list of. Things to have a discussion
about right So I don't exclusively have to tell
someone, hey, I have herpes, but I also feel the need to share
lifestyle stuff. So right now I'm very focused on
my physical health and this influences me, not drinking.
So that kind of shuts down a lot of activities for us to connect
and get to know each other Dating nights.
I'm also mindful of how I'm eating.
I have to cook a lot of my foods, so going out to eat.
Is something else that's off the table.
So really all there is is like lifestyle, physical activity.
Do you want to do something outdoors?
Do you want to go someplace indoors?
Here are what our options are. So a lot of options seem limited
based on these things. And we talked about having an
identity crisis. But working through that and
being able to open up to people and be vulnerable with them and
share, hey, here's where I'm at, here's what's going on with me.
Do you accept this? Yes or no?
And to be rejected for, you know, something like a herpes
diagnosis. I think that is so out of your
control that it feels like being able to like being rejected for
having financial situation be less than desirable.
Like that would hit a lot harder because that is something as
they control, right? I'm just using that as an
example just to give people some type of a take away, some
perspective to take away as they go into their daytoday life, as
they go into dating and they start thinking about or vetting
other potential partners. You know you might have herpes,
but what about this other person in their situation, right.
They've got something. They've got something to
disclose. Everyone has something and and
if I can also just add like it's it's not about levels of I don't
want to use, I don't want to use the word promiscuous because
it's it's not sex positive. But it's it's not about the
amount of sex someone has or doesn't have because like herpes
can happen as as as I know the first, the very first time you
engage in it. So it can happen to anyone,
anywhere and and and once you get a diagnosis, I mean what it
is. What's this?
The statistic is still one in four.
Yeah, one in four people. Have it.
I don't. I don't look at that.
I don't look at that at all. I think.
I think there is. I think it is something like
that, that it's like one in four people are either either have it
and know about it or are a carrier for it, which is why it
gets so widely spread. Oh, 87% of people who have
herpes don't know that they have it.
OK. So that's a very useful
statistic, you know, and that's why, I mean, I'm sure this guy,
like, I'm not getting him off the hook entirely, but just like
I'm sure he didn't know if he, you know, maybe he did and that
would be really horrible of him. But if he, if he didn't know, he
didn't know. Now that doesn't take away the
fact that he should have used protection.
OK. But but I'm not blaming him for
having something that he didn't know about.
I'm blaming him for not, you know, not treating me in a
consensual manner. That's a different story.
So all I would say to anyone listening who's going through
stuff is that, you know a herpes diagnosis isn't it really is not
the end of the world. And it feels like it.
It really does, but it is not. And there's so many.
It's just it's just been part of my life and it's been it's been
challenging like it's it's actually been really difficult
and probably because I've never had you know quote UN quote life
before herpes in a in in sort of a sexual like a fully realized
adult. I would think that that makes
things easier for you, though, because this is all you've
known. So with nothing to compare it
to, there's no moments of grief to have to let go of who you
used to be and who you thought you would be based on that.
You only had this point of reference, yeah, but there's
been a lot of grief for the life that I didn't get to have.
I didn't get to have a quote, UN quote, normal sex life.
I didn't have to make disclosures to, you know, I
wouldn't have had to make a disclosure to every single
sexual partner. I would have talked about safe
sex. And as long as we use a condom,
great, like let's do whatever, like let's have a one night
stand. But I didn't.
I had so much grief over the life that I didn't get to have.
This is what I knew. This is what it is.
I'm going to work through it. It sucks, but here it is.
You know, facts are in front of me and I can, I can work around
them. But yeah, there was a lot of
grief for me. It was.
It was about what I didn't get to have as opposed to what I did
have. OK.
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing as
much as you have and for clarifying that point for you as
well. Do you want the opportunity to
just shout out 0 Proof Nation? Like how can people connect with
you? Who do you want to connect with?
Why do you want to connect? Like, I'll let you do that and
then I'll send us out of here. OK.
Well, thanks, Courtney. Yeah, so real quick.
Hi everyone. So 0 proof nation is a sorry 0
proof Nation is a global resource hub for all things non
alcoholic ranging from boost free bars to nonalk beverages to
bottle shops to industry news. I just launched a global map of
alcohol free only establishments across the world and there are
close to 300 individual places that are solely alcohol free
ranging from Poland to Australia to Chile and Mexico to you know
all sorts of places in North America and the UK.
And I once again care about non elk so much because of my own
story, because of my own sobriety.
So I want to connect with with anyone who's interested in
learning more about the non elk world.
I'm happy to give you tons of of my own, like product
recommendations. And you know, more importantly,
I'm happy to connect with anyone who, you know wants to.
Wants to connect with me over my story and and if anyone needs
any help. I'm not a licensed professional,
so I'm not going to give you licensed help, but I can
certainly provide my perspective of what it's like to to date
with herpes for the better part of my adult life and to date
sober. So I got both of those check
check and I'll have the check now.
Alright and where can people find you?
Well on the gram depends on on what you want.
But if you just go to my main page which is at we are sober,
it has the links to my to my other to my other Instagrams.
And if you're ever in the DC area you can you can look up
booze free in DC as well which is which is a travel guide to
the to the area from an on out perspective and yeah just find
me on the gram, that's where I am.
Oh my God, that's a horrible rhyme.
All right. Well, thank you so much for your
time. If I can get you to stay on for
a little bit after we're I close out the outro, we'll just kind
of check in about how to podcast one for you and I can add
whatever disclaimers you would like.
Sounds good. Thanks so much.
Yeah, all right. That concludes this episode of
something positive for positive people.
Please, like, rate, review, share, subscribe to this podcast
if you have not already. Please go to
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For people who are living with herpes, this information is
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And if you go there now, you'll see that we're in the process of
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please mark your calendar so that you can attend.
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to talk a little bit about stigma herpes and get you some
resources that you can that'll be a little bit more dependable
than what you might have scoured the Internet for.
All right, that's it. That's all I got.
I look forward to y'all being here for future episodes, and I
look forward to hearing from anyone who wants to be a podcast
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Again, this is a nonprofit organization and we run off
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