1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,120 Welcome to something positive for Positive people. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,480 I'm Courtney brain. Something positive for positive 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,640 people is a podcast featuring the experiences of individuals 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:13,080 living with or affected by sexually transmitted infections, 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,360 herpes, HIV and HPV. Before we go into this episode, 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,080 couple announcements. So the first one is this one's 7 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:22,200 gonna sound a little bit different than what you're used 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,160 to. Over the last week or so, I've 9 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,080 been reflecting on some of the things that we've been doing 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,840 here, one of which is working towards a destigmatization of 11 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,720 people living with STI S And all I'm doing by asking people to 12 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,360 share their race, ethnicity, and all those kinds of things is 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,880 creating added layers of separation when the goal here is 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,880 for people to recognize just how exactly we are the same. 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,520 It just kind of went against my value after some deep self 16 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,360 observation and just really thinking through what I can do 17 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,240 to make this better. I think that it's best for us to 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,920 keep the podcast in line with my core values and beliefs. 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,920 So going forward, we're going to focus more so on who the guests 20 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:10,880 are and what they're doing rather than what they look like 21 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,040 or what they're sexual preferences are. 22 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,000 And if it comes up throughout the podcast, if they use various 23 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,520 pronouns or that they have been in the relationship with someone 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,480 of a certain sex or any of those things, if they come up, it'll 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,040 come up throughout the podcast. I'm not going to remove it if it 26 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,440 comes up casually, but I don't want to continue to create these 27 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,480 profiles of differentiation between people. 28 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,840 I'll have to go back and redo the episode Zero episode because 29 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,240 that was what I thought was best for the podcast, but it turns 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,680 out it's not been as helpful as I thought. 31 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:43,440 Now that we got that out of the way, don't forget to follow the 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,960 hashtag Something positive for positive people and the hashtag 33 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,440 SPFPP, which is a lot easier to put in tweets than something 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,640 positive for positive people. With that said, I would like to 35 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,240 introduce our guest today we have Melissa King. 36 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,360 Melissa, go on, introduce yourself. 37 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,280 Well, I am a psychotherapist in New York City, a licensed mental 38 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,199 health counselor. My big passion area is working 39 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:09,960 with individuals who have herpes. 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,400 Let's talk about how you got into that because you have a 41 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,360 very interesting origin story of how you landed in the field that 42 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,240 you're in. Yeah, I've been in this world, I 43 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,160 mean in the herpes world for a really long time. 44 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,880 It's actually starting to make me feel old when I think about 45 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,640 it. Since 1994. 46 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:30,960 So what is that 20, three years or something like? 47 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,600 That 2324. Yeah, I was actually 48 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:37,400 misdiagnosed with herpes when I was 16 years old. 49 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,640 I started that way because I don't want people's expectations 50 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:44,560 to be too surprised when they learn what happened. 51 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,760 So I thought I had herpes for eight years. 52 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,200 So from the age of 16 till about the age of 24. 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,600 Back then, the tests weren't that great and the doctor 54 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,760 diagnosed me visually. I went to my original doctor, 55 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:59,840 They were suspicious. They did blood tests. 56 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,200 The IGN came back positive. I don't think they had IgG back 57 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,120 then. And then that doctor, thankfully 58 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,960 was really smart to go and ask a specialist. 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,920 And the the specialist said, well, the IGM's aren't that 60 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,560 reliable. It can pick up other herpes 61 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,680 viruses like chicken pox and stuff like that. 62 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,400 So basically she came back and said, we don't know, you're just 63 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,960 gonna have to come back in when you get another outbreak. 64 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,560 So I remember seeing the symptoms. 65 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,240 I assumed it was herpes. My doctor didn't actually see 66 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,520 the actual symptoms by the time I saw her. 67 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,120 So I just believe what the doctor told me at the clinic. 68 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,960 And I lived the next eight years believing I had herpes, going to 69 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,800 support groups, taking Valtrex as suppressive therapy and 70 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,080 trying to figure out how, how do I get myself esteem back? 71 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,760 How am I going to tell a partner? 72 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,640 How am I going to have a meaningful life? 73 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,400 I found out that I was negative when I was 24 years old. 74 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:58,720 It was like 2002. I was dating someone at the time 75 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,720 who I had disclosed to. We were hanging out. 76 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:02,880 It was kind of one of those things. 77 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,200 I think we're both interested in each other, but I wasn't quite 78 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,040 sure what it was yet. And I just told him the story. 79 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,320 It wasn't the planned thing. It just came out as sharing. 80 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,280 And he leaned over and kissed me. 81 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,399 I remember a week later, I was like, did he hear me back? 82 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,120 Yeah. And I remember sitting on a park 83 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:22,800 bench with him and bringing it up again. 84 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,120 And he just said, this is making me too happy to not be with you 85 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,040 for something like that. And of course, that's, I mean, 86 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,880 amazing, amazing, wonderful thing to hear when you're 87 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,520 experienced something like herpes. 88 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,320 At that time I was really getting a lot more comfortable 89 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,040 with it, but I didn't have a lot of experience dating a lot yet 90 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,840 with it. So that was a really fun 91 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:44,880 experience. And then I found out about the 92 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,320 new test, the IDD test that I was like, I wanna go find out 93 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,440 which type I have, if I have type one or type 2. 94 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,160 So I went to a clinic that specialized in SD testing and 95 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,960 that was doing herpes testing and got the test. 96 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,680 And at the time there was a test called Pocket, which I believe 97 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,600 is now the Bio Kit. I believe Bio Kit bought the 98 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,480 Pocket technology. So pocket had a 10 minute turn 99 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,360 around and it only tested for type 2. 100 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,320 And so they pulled blood to send away for type one and then they 101 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,600 did the type 2 blood test right there in the office and that 102 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,040 came back negative And I was like oh OK, I guess I have type 103 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,800 1. So I went home and waited two 104 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,360 weeks for the phone call. They finally call me and they 105 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,960 say your blood test came back negative for type one. 106 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,520 And I was like, excuse me, something must be wrong. 107 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,760 And so over the next year I probably had I don't even know 108 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:40,040 how many times I did the blood test again because I was just 109 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,560 like 8 years of living my life one way and it was really 110 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,680 surprising to me. You went all this time without 111 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,120 having any other outbreaks I. Didn't have symptoms that were 112 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,040 just like the first ones that I had, but I had various kinds of 113 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,040 stuff that happens to girls, you know, like it's just like you 114 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,480 have an itch, you have a red spot, you have this and that. 115 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,400 And I was 16 years old when this happened, so I wasn't that 116 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,680 familiar with my body. I just was like, I guess that's 117 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:07,520 herpes. You know, I assumed all the 118 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,720 things that go on in woman's vulvas, you know, it's like, I 119 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,800 guess that maybe that's herpes. And also, I was taking Valtrex 120 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,280 as suppressive therapy, so I wasn't expecting to get frequent 121 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:20,240 outbreaks. And I also knew because there 122 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,680 were some good books back then that people sometimes will have 123 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,280 one outbreak and not get more outbreaks or they would have 124 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:28,680 mild symptoms. And also, there wasn't social 125 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,120 media when I was diagnosed. You know, I wasn't comparing 126 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,760 notes with other patients. Let me ask you this. 127 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,040 When you were first misdiagnosed, you thought you 128 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,640 had herpes and you took the necessary precautions. 129 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,000 But now you find out you don't have herpes. 130 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,880 And I know that there's a little bit of in between there, but 131 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,720 when you found out you didn't have it, what was your response? 132 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,960 Other than just whoa, this is a shift. 133 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,880 It wasn't like this huge relief or anything like that because I 134 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,200 had come to terms with it for the most part at that point. 135 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,120 And so some people will say to me, you must have been so 136 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,360 relieved. And I think after eight years, I 137 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,080 was just like, this is just weird. 138 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,120 You're like, now what? Like who am I? 139 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,440 Right. I would never take those eight 140 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:17,800 years back because it really pushed me to start looking at 141 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,160 who I was as a person and my value as a person instead of a 142 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,040 sexual being, which I think as a teenager, as a teenage girl, I 143 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,720 felt a lot of pressure to be sexually attractive and all the 144 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,200 magazines were talking about how to be good and bad. 145 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,000 It really made me stop and consider maybe I have to believe 146 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,800 that my value is more than that, more than just what I have to 147 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,840 offer as a sexual being. So I really worked on that. 148 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,520 And I was at the point when I received the news that I was 149 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,840 negative, where I was believing that herpes was just gonna be 150 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,520 the way that I weeded out people that didn't really care about 151 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,480 me. And so I kid you not, one of my 152 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,960 first thoughts was, how am I gonna know if somebody really 153 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,760 loves me now? It sounds so strange, right? 154 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,640 But that literally was one of my first. 155 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,760 Thoughts. That's such a positive outlook 156 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,280 on it too, because a lot of people go immediately to Who's 157 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,000 going to Love Me? Whereas the other end of the 158 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,000 spectrum on that is, well damn, that goes my filtering 159 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,440 mechanism. I was choosing people based on 160 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,120 this. How are you going to respond to 161 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,880 me having herpes? That's a tool for screening 162 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,000 people in, and you've become so reliant on that tool. 163 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,400 It's like, OK, now that I don't have this, what am I going to do 164 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,120 now? Right then, I was enrolling in a 165 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:36,280 program around the same time to do health coaching. 166 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,640 I actually used to be an audio engineer, and I left that work 167 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:42,799 to move to New York and study dance, which was kind of like a 168 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:44,840 childhood dream, and I just wanted to give myself an 169 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,600 opportunity to do it. But then I had to figure out how 170 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,440 am I going to make money? So I had a lot of interest in 171 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:51,680 nutrition and that sort of thing. 172 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:55,000 So I went to school for Wellness coaching and decided that I 173 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,280 wanted to focus on the herpes population because it had been 174 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,280 my community for so long. And at the time I was especially 175 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,040 focusing on women. I wanted to have other women to 176 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,320 get accurate information more quickly than I did and kind of 177 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,480 get on the road to healing and have support. 178 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,440 I started doing coaching and I eventually formed a group. 179 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,720 I was getting individual clients together a few times a year to 180 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,600 meet each other, and then over time I felt that Wellness 181 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,840 coaching was too limiting. I wanted to be able to go deeper 182 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,640 and to be able to treat the mental health concerns that were 183 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,640 coming up. Sometimes there was depression 184 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:34,680 or anxiety and things like that. And I, as a longest coach, I 185 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,680 just didn't have the training or skills to be able to. 186 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,240 So I was referring those people out. 187 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,880 And those people had opened up to me about the story, and then 188 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,440 they had to go talk to a stranger about it who might not 189 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,280 know much about herpes. So I decided to go back to 190 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,920 school and get my degree, and that's health counseling. 191 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,240 And so that's how I ended up in private practice, which is what 192 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,920 I do now. And so I'm able to work with 193 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,400 people who just are adjusting to the diagnosis, to people who 194 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,720 have seen an anxiety disorder and the herpes diagnosis is 195 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,560 really magnified, you know, magnified by the anxiety and 196 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,200 magnifying the anxiety. Yeah, yeah. 197 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,360 So do you see, I want to ask you a lot about your experience. 198 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,920 And I know we're going to end up having to do multiple episodes 199 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,520 here, but this is a really good place to ask this question. 200 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,320 So what's one of the most common emotions? 201 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,360 Or Yeah, what are the most common emotions people 202 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,040 experience who come to you with a new herpes diagnosis? 203 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,160 I think that it's, it's really like a sense of hopelessness 204 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:46,320 about their opportunity for love. 205 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,160 Mm hmm. You know, it's a despair, you 206 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,640 know, a feeling like either my life is over or I'll never be 207 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,680 able to fall in love. That's the initial. 208 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,880 Yeah, I agree with that. Despair is a very good word for 209 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,840 it, and hopelessness as well. When I was diagnosed, I think I 210 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,200 was so distracted externally by, Oh my God, who else did I give 211 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,000 this to? I didn't really have time to go 212 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,000 into the sadness and despair right away. 213 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,760 So it was more of like, I need to find out who else has this. 214 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,920 And then when I made all my phone calls and everyone said 215 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,320 no. You became worried about who you 216 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,960 might have affected. Yes. 217 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,240 That's where I was at that point in time shortly after diagnosis. 218 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,760 Eventually it got to a point where I had my time to be like, 219 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,920 oh man, you know, now dating is going to suck. 220 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,160 People have asked me, was there ever a time where you were just 221 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,480 down about it? And I think that the repression 222 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,040 of the emotion may have played out in other areas of my life 223 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,640 because it, to me, wasn't that big of a deal. 224 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,720 Until it came to me having to date again five years later. 225 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,040 Because I was in and out of relationships at that point in 226 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,480 time with people who knew and were OK with it. 227 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,400 But then when I had to begin meeting new people or start 228 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,000 dating, there was like a hidden anxiety. 229 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,920 And in hindsight, I'm able to say the reason I would sabotage 230 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,640 potential relationships was because I have herpes and I 231 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,960 didn't want to have to have that conversation. 232 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,040 Does that make sense? Sure. 233 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,280 You know, I think it's really encouraging to hear that your 234 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,520 first thought was how have I affected other people? 235 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,520 Simply because while I work with men and women, I predominantly 236 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,600 work with women. You know, a lot of the women 237 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:33,160 feel like the partners who knew that they had it or who found 238 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,800 out they had it because the woman got it did not treat them 239 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,160 responsibly. They didn't feel that their 240 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,720 experience was cared for. And so the fact that you 241 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,000 actually thought first, who have I affected is it's just an 242 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,640 encouraging thing to hear about. I also find myself wondering 243 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,520 many women spend their youth dreaming of their wedding right? 244 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,120 Dreaming of relationship, right? And so I wonder how different 245 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,960 perhaps it might be for a man versus a woman if that reaction 246 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,680 of no one will love me. Yeah, more. 247 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,400 Like, I'm not gonna walk down the aisle right for a woman. 248 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:17,240 So I'll say as someone who spent a lot of time like watching TV 249 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,480 or movies and seeing a lot of the media popular, this pop 250 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,360 culture in general, one of the thoughts that came up may have 251 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,560 been my sexuality is going to now be limited. 252 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,560 That wasn't necessarily a big deal because I had a lot of 253 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,920 other things going on. So it wasn't high priority. 254 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,280 Like, oh man, now I can't have as many partners as I would like 255 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,040 to have. Can't lie to you, that was 256 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,880 always a thing for me, especially after high school 257 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,320 through college. It was like, have as much sex as 258 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,360 you can with as many women as you can. 259 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,480 And then I got herpes. At that point, I was in a new 260 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,080 job. I was at a new place in life 261 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,800 where the opportunities should have been plentiful. 262 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:01,480 But now it's like, OK, I need to just be in a relationship or I 263 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,560 need to just get rid of that dream altogether. 264 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,760 But then, you know, I became distracted by my career, those 265 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,960 kinds of goals. And then just, I would say I was 266 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,760 on autopilot for a while. Growing up, I was taught go to 267 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,320 school, go to work, get an education, get a job that you 268 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,040 love and retire. There was really no in between 269 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,920 there and dealing with herpes created and in between, so to 270 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,760 speak. And just different aspects of 271 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,240 dating challenges and wondering how people were looking at me 272 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,000 and having to overcompensate in other areas of my life. 273 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,920 Maybe even now that we're saying this out loud, maybe even that 274 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:37,640 was why I got into working out so much. 275 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,080 Like OK, if I'm more physically attractive then whoever I date 276 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,160 will look past me having herpes so I'm gonna work out in order 277 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,360 to look good. I love that you said that. 278 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,920 I think that's such a common experience. 279 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,600 I think a lot of my clients talk about that, of just feeling like 280 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,400 I now have to be perfect on the outside so that maybe herpes 281 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,560 won't seem like such a big deal to someone. 282 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,880 Like oh you have herpes, well you're hot so yeah. 283 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,360 Or oh you have herpes, well you make 6 figures whatever 284 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,320 situation. Maybe I've noticed that even 285 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,840 since I've become out and more open about it, there are a lot 286 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,400 of other people who are physically active or in the 287 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,080 fitness profession who are dealing with some sort of a 288 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,440 health challenge. And of course, being healthy 289 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,160 helps with minimizing outbreaks. And then other, you know, 290 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,920 physical medical conditions, it helps with those as well, even 291 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,800 with mental health issues. So a lot of people who have 292 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,040 gotten into working out, it's good for them to do so, not just 293 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,760 from the perspective of, oh, I need to look good so that I can 294 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,760 find a partner. Absolutely. 295 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,920 And I think also, you know, one of the things that I really work 296 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:59,200 with my clients on is really building a sense of value in all 297 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,960 the other things that they have to offer in a relationship. 298 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,880 Because when you're in a relationship, I mean, I've been 299 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:07,040 working with people who have heard me since 2003. 300 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,680 I've seen so many people go on to have relationships with 301 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,920 partners who are negative. And whenever any of those people 302 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,320 come back and tell, you know, tell me how they're doing or 303 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,680 they come back to visit my therapy group, you know, 304 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,720 they're, they're all like herpes doesn't even come up. 305 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,000 It's such a non issue. You know, it's like relationship 306 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,000 issues there. There's so many other things 307 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,800 that we have to deal with in relationships. 308 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,280 If we can't get through herpes, we're not going to be OK 309 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,760 Probably because it's herpes is does end up becoming such a 310 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,720 small thing. So I really try to help my 311 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,280 clients to think about what connects us to people. 312 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,880 We are attracting people for the superficial reasons or we're 313 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,760 trying to sell something that we're not. 314 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,960 Yeah, right. Those relationships end up being 315 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,160 fleeting, right. And less satisfying also. 316 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,040 Yeah. You know, regardless of what 317 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,840 kind of relationship you're looking for. 318 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,720 And I'm noticing a pattern of the more the people who respond 319 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,520 negatively to a diagnosis typically have a lot of other 320 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,079 things going on that aren't being dealt with personally than 321 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,119 just herpes. And it's just like, OK, now 322 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,800 herpes is like a physical manifestation of an obstacle 323 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,400 that I now have to deal with. But in reality, in dealing with 324 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,200 herpes, there are so many different subcategories of 325 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,880 things that you can deal with, such as your mental health, your 326 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,040 physical health or your career or just overall sense of 327 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,360 direction, You know, dealing with who you are and what it is 328 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,000 that you're doing. And rather than seeking a 329 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,880 relationship based on what is this person going to give me or 330 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,800 do for me, you're more so focused on what can I do for 331 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,480 myself and what can I bring to the table and what is a partner 332 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,880 or partners going to add to that table. 333 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,040 It's giving me an overall idea of a bigger picture. 334 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,280 We're both contributing to this cloud overhead. 335 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,880 And I'm doing my best to create a visual here, but there's a 336 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,960 cloud above us and we both have an idea of what this cloud looks 337 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,560 like. I know what I bring to the 338 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,200 table. You know what you bring to the 339 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,480 table. And we're contributing that into 340 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,560 this cloud over our heads so that we're getting out what it 341 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,400 is that we need. So we're not setting our 342 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,160 expectations externally on what are you giving me and what can I 343 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,840 give you. But we're more so contributing 344 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,960 to this overall bigger picture and we're getting what we need 345 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,880 out of it by adding to it what we have to add to it. 346 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,720 I hope that makes sense. Right, right. 347 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,720 You know, sometimes I will ask people to reflect on the 348 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,880 question, if you weren't worried about herpes, what would you be 349 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,440 worried about? Or if you weren't insecure about 350 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,120 herpes, what would you be insecure about? 351 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,120 Not to minimize. I mean, herpes is something to 352 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,920 deal with. It's something to work through. 353 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,280 But we can become so hyper focused on it that it allows us 354 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,880 to be distracted from these other issues that are hard, more 355 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,760 complex, and more more difficult to work through. 356 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,560 Mm hmm. A good question is like, if not 357 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,640 herpes, then what? So similar thing. 358 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,600 Yeah, I've asked people about that. 359 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,520 I have to blog in very specific places when I'm asking these 360 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,440 kinds of questions because I like to get feedback from people 361 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,720 in the community. I want to make this podcast as 362 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,400 useful as possible. So when asking a question like 363 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,960 that, OK, If not herpes didn't what? 364 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,120 You'd be surprised when people come up with the ones who do 365 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:37,240 contribute because already we have a group of people who feel 366 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,480 stigmatized to the point where they may not even want to 367 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,920 contribute to public posts. But you can see like, OK, so 368 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,040 many people looked at this or so many people liked it but are 369 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,680 hesitant to contribute to it. But the responses you get to 370 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,920 this is it's all across the board, OK? 371 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,520 It's my physical health, my mental health, dealing with 372 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,840 toxic relationships or other health challenges. 373 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,600 There's all these different challenges across the board that 374 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,800 are so much more significant than herpes. 375 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,960 And another thing that often comes up is if herpes is the 376 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,040 worst thing that you have to deal with, then you're living a 377 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,360 pretty good life. You know, first coming up, I got 378 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,320 to have his rent pay, you know, so. 379 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,720 I got to get to work, you know, there's different work 380 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,040 challenges and personal challenges. 381 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,520 And then making sure that I make time to do this podcast, making 382 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,360 time for the relationships in my life. 383 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,600 I'll always say that if this is the worst thing going on in your 384 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,120 life, then you're doing pretty well. 385 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,880 Yeah. You know, I think herpes can be 386 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,560 especially painful when people have had difficult relationships 387 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,120 or rejection or, you know, have had trouble sort of achieving 388 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,800 what they've desired for relationships and they end up 389 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,560 feeling like herpes is just a further sign that something's 390 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,160 wrong with them, right? And then so and then they focus 391 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,840 on the herpes and they're not really able to get to, well, 392 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,120 what really has been going on that's made it difficult for you 393 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,320 to achieve the kind of relationships unless you let it? 394 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,040 Herpes doesn't really have to be the thing that prevents you. 395 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,160 It's probably something else going on. 396 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,400 I like the way you worded that. Yeah, I've noticed from so many 397 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:20,200 years of doing this that people who had healthy relationships, 398 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,520 you know, healthy long term relationships prior to 399 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,360 contracting herpes, usually go on to have healthy long term 400 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,320 relationships after. People who had difficulty 401 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,600 establishing relationships say people who tend to choose 402 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,480 unavailable partners continue to choose unavailable partners 403 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,040 after herpes, which then may lead to more feelings of I'm 404 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,760 being rejected of her because of herpes. 405 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,200 When really there's a pattern that needs to be addressed of 406 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,320 choosing unavailable partners and understanding the 407 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,680 psychological dynamics that are going on that are leading you to 408 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,080 that pattern is really what we need to work on. 409 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,080 How do we begin to recognize these patterns if herpes? 410 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,520 To me, herpes was a speed bump, and when I recognize it as a 411 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,560 speed bump, it was like, oh, there's all these other things 412 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,520 that I need to work on, but I have a very unique set of 413 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,480 experience that led me to that. But what's a good universal way 414 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,800 for us to recognize if we have a bad pattern that isn't? 415 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,440 Well, I think, yeah, sure. I think that, I mean, first it's 416 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,880 having some experiences to have a pattern and having some 417 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,960 experiences could just simply be, I've asked a lot of people 418 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,440 on dates and everyone said, no, I mean, that's enough experience 419 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,440 to have a pattern. So it could just be just kind of 420 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,040 reflecting back over the the years and over what are the 421 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,840 situations I keep ending up in and are do these situations seem 422 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,800 healthy? Am I happy with them? 423 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,360 Right. You know, and why do I think 424 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:51,560 that's happening? Am I really blaming the right 425 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,240 thing? Is it, you know, if you're, you 426 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,400 know, if you have good hygiene and basic level of being able to 427 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,000 dress appropriately and stuff like that, it's probably not 428 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,160 your appearance. There's probably something else. 429 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,320 Mm hmm. Going on. 430 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,880 So I mean, I think therapy is a really, really useful thing when 431 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,160 you have a, a pattern that keeps happening that's painful. 432 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,200 But if you wanna pick up a book, sometimes books on like 433 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,880 attachment theory can be really helpful. 434 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,240 And there's one book that I sometimes recommend to clients 435 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,160 who clearly have a pattern of attachment that's not working. 436 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,320 It's called attached and you know, so for instance, there are 437 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:33,600 patterns of avoidance, There are patterns of preoccupied anxious 438 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,680 where you become like you get involved with somebody and you 439 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,800 become really anxious about the relationship surviving and you 440 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,000 call them all the time and you're always worried if they're 441 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,960 going to call you right and that sort of thing. 442 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,640 So like the like understanding the gaining awareness and 443 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,800 information right about the attachment pattern can be a 444 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,320 beginning to solve them that. All right. 445 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,280 And I'm glad you said that because I find that journaling 446 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,320 is very useful. When you find yourself in a 447 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,520 situation where you you're experiencing an emotion, it's 448 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,640 great to explore that emotion. I've found that through reading, 449 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,960 of course, several books, there is a common ground of every 450 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,360 emotion being attached to 10s and thousands of thoughts. 451 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,480 So if you recognize the emotion you're feeling and you're able 452 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,120 to ask why am I feeling this emotion and then going through 453 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,480 what's happening in your life, I've found that personally to be 454 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,160 extremely useful. It's such a great practice when 455 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,680 you're trying to work through problems and understand yourself 456 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,360 better and improve your life, right? 457 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,080 Having a discipline, I think is especially like a discipline of 458 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,040 journaling because sometimes if we just do it from time to time, 459 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,040 we don't, we don't do it. That's true. 460 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,240 If you kind of work it in like I'm going to do this before bed, 461 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,760 or I'm going to do this at dinner, or I'm going to, you 462 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,080 know, do it in the morning, whatever works for you. 463 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,360 And even if you just give yourself 5 minutes to do it, I 464 00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:00,480 think sometimes you might be surprised by what comes out. 465 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,160 And even over time, you get so much better at it. 466 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,280 You you become faster with it. So if I'm feeling sad about 467 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,240 something and I begin to just ask a question in my head, I can 468 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,840 filter through all the bullshit and ultimately get to what's 469 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,040 really making me sad and decide how I'm going to deal with it. 470 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,960 So it's something that went from having to write out like pages 471 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,480 and pages to filling in the notebook, to writing a page to 472 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,240 now it's like, oh, OK, it it's at the snap of a finger. 473 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,240 I'm able to get to the root of what the problem is and then 474 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,000 decide, am I going to address it? 475 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,520 Am I going to change it or am I going to leave it the way it is 476 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,640 or walk away from it even? Right. 477 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:40,800 Yeah. And there are times where you 478 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,640 have to just walk away well. Yeah. 479 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,560 You know what it it is. I mean, I think that coming to 480 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:52,200 that point of decision is so, you know, for some people, they 481 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,960 are able to know, like I'm, this is the decision I need to make. 482 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,000 And for some people, that's where their anxiety is, right? 483 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,400 And so then they get stuck and then it's like they don't know. 484 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,120 They, they, they're not even sure what the healthy, healthy 485 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,360 response is. Like, do I, do I act? 486 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:16,440 Do I, do I, do I remove myself from this situation, you know, 487 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,400 avoid it. What like, what do I do right? 488 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,200 And you know, talking that through with somebody can be 489 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,040 really, really useful. But you know, I, I bring that up 490 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,360 because Speaking of patterns, I think especially with avoidance, 491 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,840 sometimes you're not going to necessarily catch that you have 492 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,720 this pattern where you just keep avoiding. 493 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,880 I think it's very important for people to recognize the people 494 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,200 they have in their lives as being able to point these things 495 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,560 out to them because I was fortunate enough to have people 496 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,440 in my life who were able to point out to me, all right, 497 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,520 Courtney, you're doing this. You have this pattern. 498 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,040 I wouldn't have recognized the pattern if they hadn't pointed 499 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,400 it out to me. I could have responded one way 500 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,160 of screw you, asshole, or respond the way that I did and 501 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,680 begin to like, ask, oh, do I like, when do I do it? 502 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,480 How do I do it? Can you point it out to me when 503 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,000 it happens? So being able to have those 504 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,880 kinds of people in your life, it's very risky to share because 505 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,960 for a while I have a very, very close friend who didn't know I 506 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,000 had herpes. And he would be like, dude, you 507 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,320 do this thing where dot, dot, dot, and it will always go back 508 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,040 to that pattern. And then one day I was just 509 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,360 like, you know what, man, I have herpes. 510 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,800 That didn't even make a difference in why I was doing 511 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,000 what I was doing because he was like, all right, well, you still 512 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,640 do this thing. And while it was a relief for 513 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,720 me, I felt like clearing that mental space allowed me to be 514 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:43,120 more receptive to the advice that was given to me and being 515 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,960 more open minded to, OK, I do this thing and this is just what 516 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,560 this person notices who I'm at work with or I'm, I'm hanging 517 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,640 out with. What about the other, you know, 518 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,480 16 hours a day? What else am I doing? 519 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,760 So I began to really observe my own personal behavior. 520 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,080 And I encourage others to do that as well. 521 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,560 You know, if you have a pattern and you find yourself in the 522 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,960 pattern. What's helped me is projecting 523 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,320 myself like overhead, watching myself indulge in the behavior 524 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,440 that I'm doing and explore the emotion I feel. 525 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,000 So what is it? What am I getting out of this? 526 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,520 What am I doing? Why am I doing it? 527 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600 And then be able to go back to my own notebook, journal it in 528 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,080 and be like, oh, OK, am I going to keep this away? 529 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,840 It is. Or am I going to change it? 530 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Or does this not serve my life? Bringing that back full circle, 531 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,400 it's important to have healthy people in your life who are 532 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,000 going to be able to give you this kind of advice and remove 533 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,720 the toxic people because my friend could have easily just 534 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,480 manipulated the situation in his favor to receive whatever it was 535 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,160 that person would receive by keeping me in that same pattern. 536 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,960 Yeah, I want to speak for a second to those people who might 537 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,280 be listening, who are maybe lonely and maybe are shy or have 538 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,040 social anxiety or are struggling to form healthy relationships, 539 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,240 You know, And I wanna just say that places you can start are 540 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,880 looking for a therapy group. It doesn't even have to be about 541 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,880 herpes, but that is a safe place usually where you can begin to 542 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,440 kind of explore relationships. You just know you go there every 543 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,760 Wednesday at 6:00 PM and you have that place, you have 544 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,360 connection and people paying attention. 545 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,640 And if that's not your thing, even just getting to a class, 546 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,840 you know, I think having a pattern where you're going to 547 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,840 the same thing every week can be. 548 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,480 And that's something that I have to say a lot in New York, 549 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,080 because in New York it's easier in other places because when 550 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,120 it's small, people I think gather more. 551 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,640 But here in New York, there's so many things to do. 552 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,760 So I have to really help people to kind of find something like 553 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,480 find a home base and go every week. 554 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,080 Because when you go every week, that helps you to build 555 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,000 relationships. And those relationships are 556 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,720 built on a shared interest. I like that. 557 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,600 So do we want to, instead of using the word pattern because 558 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,920 we were talking about patterns is kind of a negative thing at 559 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,280 first or like the negative patterns of behavior, would we 560 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,360 say more so build yourself a routine or some sort of 561 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,920 structure in terms of gathering with others? 562 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,120 Well, when you said that feedback from others and getting 563 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,200 rid of toxic relationships and forming healthy relationships, I 564 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,040 think for some people it's really easy to do that because 565 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,440 they have a lot of friends, right? 566 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:16,880 And they're very, they're extroverted. 567 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,520 They just like know a lot of people. 568 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,640 So I just wanted to encourage those people who might be 569 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,960 sitting alone right now listening to this, feeling like 570 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,640 I don't even know how to begin. I'm glad you did that because I 571 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,120 yeah, and I I'm bad about that. Like making the assumption that 572 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320 everyone's like me. And I think that that's a 573 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,040 pattern that I'm I'm really trying. 574 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,560 To get out friendly and you you make connections very easily. 575 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,240 Connecting ain't easy, but I know that there were a lot of 576 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,560 things that we wanted to cover. And I'm going to have you back 577 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,640 here again, you know, if time permits and we're able to get 578 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,400 together more often. But I think that we've covered 579 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,000 quite a bit from both of our ends on what we wanted to talk 580 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,640 about. But was there anything 581 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,680 specifically that you wanted to address in this episode that you 582 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,680 think we can fit in? Because you and I can talk. 583 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,480 Even when we were speaking on the phone, we spoke for quite a 584 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,400 bit and we have so. Much So many things are racing 585 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,040 through my mind right now. I'm like, how did we get through 586 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,240 all this time and not even touch on all those? 587 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,120 Topics, right Well, we did I think we've touched on 588 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,960 everything, but more specifically, I believe that one 589 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,760 of the things that we talked about was a lot of your clients 590 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,000 being female and needing to hear from a male perspective on 591 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,320 dating because they feel like guys aren't available or 592 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:35,880 accepting of their conditions is. 593 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,560 That right, I think what it is is that a lot of the women that 594 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,360 I've worked with would benefit from hearing from men who are 595 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,320 really handling this in a healthy, responsible way. 596 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,600 And that was one of the things that I got really excited about 597 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,880 when I felt actually with a client of mine who sent your 598 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,320 podcast to me and I was just flipping out. 599 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,880 I was, I, I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I think the guest 600 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,080 was Sean, you know, so it's two men. 601 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,080 I'm like, Oh my God, there's two men talking about this. 602 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,040 And they're talking about it in such a mature, responsible way. 603 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,000 And I had to share it with my other clients because I think so 604 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000 many of them have felt so discouraged by men who maybe 605 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,480 they contracted herpes from and who did not handle it well. 606 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,600 Most of the time it was they didn't take responsibility for 607 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,080 it. So you're the reason that 608 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:32,320 episode got so many downloads? Yeah, that might be why so And 609 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,560 then I also like really appreciated that you are a black 610 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,960 man who is coming out about this because I have many black female 611 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,120 clients. There's a lot of young white 612 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,960 women who've come out about their herpes diagnosis writers 613 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,400 and comedians. And I think that's really great. 614 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,320 But I think, you know, it's really important for people to 615 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,760 be able to see people who look like them, right, who are who 616 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,800 are talking about this publicly. And so it was really exciting 617 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:05,000 for me to be able to have someone to see that you were a 618 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,920 black man and to be able to say to my black female clients, 619 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,480 here's somebody that looks like you. 620 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,920 So different gender, but who's talking about this and putting 621 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,120 his name out there in his face, right? 622 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,840 Who's handling this responsibly? So the thing about that, I know 623 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,640 a few other black men who are living with herpes and just I 624 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,760 would say this isn't a big deal to them. 625 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,760 It's just not as much of A high priority as it may be to a lot 626 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,480 of people. You know, just like you said, as 627 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,520 a black man, you know, we deal with a lot of things in society 628 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,360 based on mindset. This can either be a hindrance 629 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,920 or this can be one more thing that we really draw strength 630 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,440 from and allow ourselves to move forward in life. 631 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,760 Or it's just completely irrep and it's like, oh shit, you 632 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,520 know, I can't have sex. Every now and then I have to 633 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,520 tell people I have herpes. It is what it is. 634 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:58,000 And another thing is like a general man thing is to not go 635 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,760 to the doctor really. So if there is some going on, it 636 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,320 might be like, oh shit, that's an ingrown hair. 637 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,680 I'm going to see if it goes away in a few days and then just not 638 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,120 think anything else of it. So it's very possible that more 639 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,639 of the population does have it than what we think just based on 640 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,280 that, because the first outbreak is usually the worst. 641 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,239 So if I get flu or something and it's the flu, if I also have a 642 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,400 sore in my mouth and it's a cold sore, which a lot of people 643 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,040 don't know, it's herpes. There's a lot of different 644 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,120 factors that play into that. But just going back to the black 645 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,440 man thing, some of the black men I know it's just not relevant to 646 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,800 them because maybe they're in a relationship or they've got 647 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,719 other things going on or they find that the people that they 648 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,520 tell don't really they're not bothered by it. 649 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,679 You have to put yourself out there as well. 650 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,040 So if this really does bother you, as someone who's looking 651 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,920 for a partner in general, not just black female looking for a 652 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,040 black male in general, you have to be willing to put yourself 653 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,520 out there because there are so many people who are putting 654 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,040 themselves out there and just not finding someone compatible 655 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,160 for them. And it's not just based on 656 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,200 ethnicity, it's also based on having herpes or being accepting 657 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,520 and having herpes. So there's all these different 658 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,080 dating groups, support groups, interest groups, and people just 659 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,640 aren't able to find them. We're definitely gonna chat 660 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,920 again. We're at a good stopping point 661 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,080 here. First, let's tell everyone how 662 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,880 they can reach you. OK, my website is my heart 663 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,000 dances.com just like it's spelled or you know, just like 664 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:33,680 it sounds. I mean MYATARTDANCE s.com and I 665 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,640 have a blog there and I do write about herpes and I write about 666 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,400 other mental health issues like depression and anxiety as well. 667 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,840 But I do provide tools and resources on my website for 668 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,600 coping. I can't provide therapy to 669 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,960 people who are outside of New York, but you can sign up for my 670 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,440 blog and get updates and I am hoping to continue producing. 671 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,040 Like linking therapy techniques with things people can do at 672 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,480 home. Like think reflections and 673 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,080 things People can do at home to help themselves grow and move 674 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,240 forward with this. Well, thank you. 675 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,040 I appreciate your time and I appreciate the time that you're 676 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,920 going to give us going forward because it's I've been wanting 677 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,080 someone to help guide us through the mental and emotional aspects 678 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,520 of having herpes and bam, here you are. 679 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,720 So ask and you shall receive well. 680 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,240 It's really, really great to talk with you and I am just so 681 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:29,160 happy to be able to to help others and to share what I know. 682 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,520 Thank you so much. You're welcome. 683 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,320 All right, guys, this concludes this episode of something 684 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,920 positive for Positive people. I can be found on Instagram, 685 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:43,000 Twitter, Tumblr and Reddit at H on my chest spelled exactly how 686 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,240 it sounds. Leave a review like subscribe to 687 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:48,520 rate the podcast, please. It's growing. 688 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,720 We've got people who are finding the podcast and being able to 689 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,600 connect to resources that they need for support, interest 690 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,280 groups, dating and just added information that they need to 691 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,040 help guide them through their diagnosis. 692 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,120 Till next time, stay positive.