Hello folks, this is Princess. You are listening to the
Millennial Mustard. Seed Podcast, thanks for
listening. Don't forget to share with your
friends. That's tough.
We're in a very tough spot. I think that what we're doing
right now is a great benefit and virtue because it's an end
around between this whole corrupt informational system
media system. We claim to believe in a God who
spoke the universe into existence and literally raised
himself from the dead. And yet we're not going to
believe that anything else exists in the spirit realm, even
though his word tells us that they do.
Their bodies weren't permitted to go to sleep like humans do,
and they weren't permitted to go to heaven, so they wander the
earth. You know, I've seen the.
Eyes turn black to unknown tongues being spoken.
These giants would love way up in the island, the young Braves.
The young men would hide up in the trees and wait for one of
these 12 footers to come walking down the bath and they would
jump on them and kill them, drag them back to the village, and
the village would feast on the body freedom.
Then people start to get weapons, they start to get
armor, they start to build cities, they start to fortify
their cities. Now God looks down and there's
violence everywhere. The battle, this war that we are
at, is not against each other. It's against these
principalities and these rulers and these archons in the high
places. It's really worthwhile to read
the Bible. Yourself.
Fear is one of the primary drivers of mind control because
we have to take every thought captive and resist fear.
You're going to have a testimony that is a justice case against
the Kingdom of darkness. Welcome back to the Millennium
Mustard Seed. I'm the host, Rod.
I got a cool episode in the store for you guys.
I'm joined by Doctor Max Botner. We have a fascinating
conversation. He's a first time guest.
We get into his testimony to start out and it progresses
quickly into some strange questions that I have.
We cover Christ's authority over the sea, and then we get into
topics like spirits and ghosts and what does the Bible have to
say about it. We get into some root words
regarding language being used in the New and the Old Testament.
There's some really fascinating connections.
Not anything brand new to the podcast, but it's just really
cool to see a guy who has the heart posture like Doctor Max
slow down and just thoroughly go through this stuff with us.
Much of this information I've learned in personal studies over
the years, just grabbing the word of God and diving in for
myself. But it's really important to me
in humility and to be teachable. And, you know, the doctorates
who went out before us to lay these foundations, you know,
Doctor Max right now diving into this, not protecting anybody
from the Bible. He says, let's see where the
Scripture goes. And then also, how could I
forget about legendary guys like the late Doctor Michael Heizer
and especially the late Doctor Chuck Missler?
These guys have really helped to not protect you from your Bible,
to understand threads and language.
I found this to be a really fun, encouraging, strange and
exciting episode. A part one with Doctor Max
Looking forward to his return in the near future.
But for right now I need you guys to like, share, subscribe.
You can find details on the show notes.
We are in a season of need. We do need you guys to help us
by praying, by donating, by lifting us up.
God is calling us. Things look uncertain right now
as they have looked for quite some time.
But we are trusting and putting 1 foot in front of the other.
You can find a link to my newest book.
The words are saw in the details of the show notes as well.
I play a song at the end of the episode by BHB it is called
Where would I be? It is dope.
You guys will definitely enjoy this one.
I think it's about time to jump into this episode.
I'm ready. Are you guys ready?
Let's go, let's go. Everybody, welcome to the
Millennial Mustard Seed podcast. I am Doctor Max Botner, thrilled
to be on today and to talk a little about my faith and just
talk about Jesus and Scripture and what it means to follow Him.
Doctor Max, it is an honor to be here with you, man.
I really appreciate you taking the time.
I can't wait to get into our conversation tonight.
Yeah. Thanks, Rod.
It's great to be on with you. Yeah, so I stumbled across here
on social media and what you were preaching on, I forget what
the clip was, but there was an anointing on it.
I want you to introduce yourself for my audience.
They're they're probably not going to know who you are.
Just making that assumption. I could be wrong.
I think it's a fair assumption. Only a fair assumption.
Just tell us a little bit about yourself share like that, you
know 30,000 foot view of your testimony.
Tell us what exactly it is that you do.
Yeah, great. So yeah, thanks again for having
me on I so I didn't grow up in a Christian home.
I was born into a secular Jewish Home in Canada, Montreal,
Canada. Parents got divorced at a pretty
early age and that's how they landed up back in the States
because my mom was AUS citizen. And so we just kind of, we moved
actually from coast to coast, so Florida, and then this was back
in the 90s after Hurricane Andrew, we moved across the
country to California and ended up in the Sacramento area.
And I, again, my parents were kind of into different sort of
spirituality stuff. So I, I was exposed to a lot of,
I guess you could call it kind of new age stuff.
I don't know if that's still a term people are using much
today, but that's kind of what what they called it back in the
90s. But my mom had a Christian
background. So that's sort of my was my
first introduction to the church was just, I think the Lord
really got a hold of her heart. And I saw a season of just God
pouring out his love on her. And it changed her in certain
ways. So that kind of made me curious
as a kid because I saw a different side of my mom that I
hadn't seen before. And so eventually I was in a
church service. Actually, our friends had
invited us. I was 10 years old.
And the only thing I really still remember about that night
was just God's overwhelming love just sort of enfolded me.
And I knew at that moment, man, Jesus is Lord, I want to give my
life to Jesus. So that was sort of the start of
it for me. I had no idea what I was doing,
really, what I was getting into. And yeah, from there, just kind
of, it was difficult. I was really into sports, really
into a lot of other stuff. So I bounced around a lot.
We never really got rooted in church.
Honestly, man, it wasn't until college and having a college
pastor that really poured into me that I first started becoming
really interested in my faith and scripture.
And at that time, I was starting to see fruit of what God could
do in your life if you really submitted to him, right?
If I said, OK, Jesus actually means what he says and he's
Lord, His Spirit dwells within me.
So, you know, what does that look like?
And I began to make, you know, make changes in my life and see
God working in my life. And that got me super excited
about my faith. So that put me on the track of
I, I transferred into a different college 'cause I
wanted to take some Bible classes.
It's actually the college that I now teach at as a professor,
Jessup University in the Sacramento area.
And from there, I just, I kept going on with more school
because I was so passionate about Scripture and I thought I
was either going to be a pastor or maybe a professor, but I
wasn't really sure. So I was kind of trying
everything and the Lord sort of just confirmed each step along
the way that I was. I think I'm more of a skill set
for kind of a teaching ministry within an academic setting,
Although I really do enjoy preaching in church and, and
doing ministerial stuff here and there.
But kind of with the way I'm wired, I'm sort of wired for
academia. I love the kind of heady stuff
and that's just something I've enjoyed a lot.
So right now that's what I do. I'm a, I'm a New Testament
professor at a college. I've taught at a seminary
before. I've studied and worked in the
UK and Germany, various parts of the country.
So yeah, it's, it's been quite the journey and I'm still
enjoying it. There's the, you know, God is,
is, is infinite and unending. So there's always more to
discover. And his word is so deep and so
multifaceted that you can never really exhaust the study of
Scripture either. So it gives me a lot to enjoy.
It gives me a lot to do on a daily basis.
Yeah. Wow, Very well said.
Me and Doctor Laura Sanger actually talk about quite
frequently that the word of God is inexhaustible.
So I'd love to hear you say that.
Yeah. Now let's kind of jump in into a
couple questions as as we warm up to, you know, some of the
information I sent you, I wanted to talk with you about.
You grew up having kind of like this understanding of like this
fringe or Mystic stuff going on around you.
Did that help with your faith or was that like a wrestling match?
Like, no, these worlds don't collide.
Could you help us understand that?
A. Little bit, yeah, that's a great
question. I think that in some ways my
background has made me a little bit more open minded to
different things and comfortable with people having different
perspectives than I do. Because, you know, Jewish
family, very open kind of in terms of different beliefs, the
whole kind of spirituality stuff that I was exposed to a lot of
different stuff, a lot of stuff that none of my friends would
have, you know, experienced. So it, I think it did make me
more open to certain facets, maybe even of Christianity.
And I think it also helps me understand other people better
too, and talk to people who maybe are coming from different
parts of life. You know, I, I, I kind of get
what it feels like to be in church and not be a Christian
'cause that was kind of my life experience.
So I, I, I sometimes find that in a weird way, I sometimes
connect better with people who aren't Christians and who are
depending on the context. So yeah, I think that's that's a
little bit what I would say to that.
It reminds me the late Doctor Michael Heiser, he said it was
easier to go to a UFO conference and preach the gospel than it
was to actually try to get Christians to understand the
ancient cultural context of the Bible.
Yeah, yeah, very much. And what?
Doctor, it's true. Yeah, Doctor Heiser did a great
job connecting people, Christians who maybe haven't,
you know, not for lack of want, but just haven't had the
exposure to some of what you'd get in a academic setting, you
know, where you're studying the Bible really intensely in its
historical context. He did such a great job of
saying, you know, I'm kind of gonna go where the text is gonna
go and, and, and showing people that it can actually make a
difference for how you read the text too, that it's not just
like, you know, just esoteric or, you know, kind of arbitrary
stuff. But actually, hey, this could
help you really understand the Bible better.
Such a great job with that. So.
Yeah. What exactly do you teach?
What is your expertise, if you will?
Let's dive into that real quick. Sure.
Yeah. So my dissertation, which is
kind of what you write to get your PhD, it's it was published
as a book. Now it's on the Gospel of Mark
and Messianism. So the ideas of various Jewish
messiahs and how Jesus sort of fits within that picture.
So that, that was really fascinating to me because I
realized somewhere on in my master's degree that basically
everything that is said about Jesus in the New Testament
relates in one way or another to the Old Testament.
So if I want to understand what, what the authors are saying to
us about Jesus, I really need to track along with the Old
Testament. There's a, a great New Testament
scholar by the name of Richard Bockham, who says something
along the lines of, you know, there's nothing communicated
about Jesus in the New Testament that it's, it's all what he
calls like Jewish exegesis. So in other words, people don't
write down like Jesus is God in this way.
They show you how Jesus is like Yahweh, right?
It's a different way of doing it.
But when I realized that, I just got so hooked and fascinated by
the way the New Testament authors write about Jesus and
that it's all really a kind of form of ancient Jewish
interpretation of the of the Bible, what we call the Old
Testament, that really got me hooked.
And that's remained something that I'm really, really
interested in. I do.
So I do stuff in gospels. I've done a little bit here and
there with, with Paul, but I wouldn't say that's my like my,
my expertise is been more gospel so far.
Christology, messianism. I'm really interested in
sacrifice. That's something that I've been
exploring more recently and probably going to write a book
on that coming up. So yeah, that's a little bit
about about me, what I do. How many years have you been
teaching? Let's see.
Yeah, great question. So I am in, is it my 7th year?
I think I'm going into my 7th year full time teaching.
I did some adjunct work before that, but I was at at a
seminary, teaching at a seminary in Michigan.
So it's like a school for pastors.
People were training to be pastors, taught Greek, Greek
exegesis courses there. And then I moved back to
California two years ago and I've been teaching
undergraduates now. So I teach Bible, a lot of Bible
interpretation classes, giving people the tools to read
scripture well and then some, some other kind of upper
division classes on different books within the Bible.
So I'm in a, it's a Christian university, so all, all the
students get a Bible minor. So I I work with a lot of
students that are non Bible majors now.
The reason I asked you to come on here is I wanted to talk
about Christ's authority over the darkness, right over the
fiery arrows that get shot by day, over the demoniac.
And you know, we're living in a day and age where fear is a
tactic. A lot of people are engulfed in
fear. We see a lot of panic decision
making. And the Bible tells us do not be
afraid. Do not fear.
We go through this whole thing. You know, I had Doctor Mike
Davis on recently. We do the emotional
intelligence, you know, we're talking about in the Old
Testament where God is giving us this remedy.
Do not let my law leave your mouth and I and you know, and
he's saying to Joshua, I will be with you like I was with Moses.
So we we have been going through the word and finding these
connections where it's like this is for us.
This is for this generation to just to reiterate that Christ is
who he says he is. But what I want you to hone in
on and warm up as you see fit, Doctor Max.
But I want to talk about Christ's authority and
specifically he's rebuking a storm.
He he calms the storm, He's walking on the water and
wherever you'd like to go from there.
I trust the flow of the Ruach, so take it from there.
Sounds good. Yes, we'll let it go Yeah.
And do feel free to jump in too to make sure that we're hitting
what you like. But I love what you said there
and I I guess I would just start by saying I think it's so
critical that we don't live in a fear based way.
And I mean, more than just personal anxieties about
uncertainties, which I think is a big deal.
I mean, we're facing very uncertain time.
There's a lot of upheaval currently going on, disruptions
in various industries, which creates more of that just got
out of a global pandemic. So I mean, there's a lot of
things that obviously have put that on our horizons.
And in some ways the modern world has kind of inculcated us
from that sense of death being ever present.
And so when we get that, that taste of death being present,
something that the ancients knew well, much more intimately than
we do in many ways, that can lead to kind of fear.
I think that one of the big challenges for us with fear is
that it can lead to self preservation.
When I'm afraid, I, I, I look out for myself, you know, like I
got to get my bag, I got to take care of myself, make sure my
retirement account is set, make sure I have, you know, what I
need to survive. And what's that mentality is
basically antithetical to the life Jesus calls his disciples
into, right? So we can't, you, you can't
follow Jesus with a fear based mentality, right 'cause if
you're, you're making calculations in that way geared
towards self preservation, it's basically antithetical to the
way of the cross, right? So I think it's, it's important
that we, that we discuss, you know, fear.
And, and then the other thing I'll say before we get into the
storm thing, 'cause you brought up the you, you referenced the
spiritual warfare text in Ephesians 6.
And Ephesians is a book that I've actually been teaching
quite a bit on. I've done some publications on
it. It's a, it's probably, if not my
favorite, one of my favorite letters of Paul because I think
it just, it has such a beautiful holistic picture of the gospel.
And one of the things that I that hit me with Ephesians as I
was reading it through over and over as a whole letter.
I think it's not accidental that that spiritual warfare section
comes at the end of the letter because I actually think the
whole letter in a way is about spiritual warfare.
Paul begins actually by this statement that Jesus has been
raised up in the in the heavens and he's seated above the powers
of rulers and principalities. We can get into those if you
like, these entities, these dark entities.
In some cases, you know, some of them are hostile.
So you have Christ in kind of like the victory seat to begin
the letter. And then the letter is about God
creating this unity in one new humanity of all these broken
people who were formerly divided now being brought together in
Christ. And that, he says, is a like,
it's like a sign or a monument to the rulers, these
principalities that Jesus has won the victory.
So it's it's interesting to me when I think about spiritual
warfare now, one of the things that I always emphasize first is
that it's actually a daily thing that we face as Christians and
the primary terrain on which we fight.
Spiritual warfare is just the daily battle of the mundane love
loving one another well in Christ.
That's the that's the main like kind of thing we, we, we do
because the the enemy wants to tear us apart, wants to tear us
down. And the sign of Christ's victory
is a flourishing people who are united in his name.
So doing things that we don't often think of in terms of
spiritual warfare, loving my neighbor as myself, watching the
way I speak daily, seeking to edify others and use my gifts.
Those are actually all part of what I think is what Paul sees
as the daily kind of spiritual warfare battle.
And then in that, in the spiritual warfare text in
Ephesians 6, those are all plural commands.
So it's you stand kind of together as one.
It's the picture of the body collective as an as the as the
the Roman soldier, or I mean, he's using imagery from Roman
infantry, but also from Isaiah. These are texts from Isaiah that
he's drawing on. And it's like the body standing
collectively together in this defensive posture.
So spiritual warfare is also something we have to do
together. And I think one of the things
that is challenging in our modern world is we're so we're
so divided, we're so isolated that we often lose when we're
individually fighting our battles and we don't have other
people around us. So that's something I just
wanted to emphasize because it's not always something that gets
highlighted, you know, with with these conversations in terms of
Jesus exercising his authority over the the sea.
That's a really pregnant text that we have in the Gospel
tradition. There's there's a couple
different texts where where Jesus exercises his authority
over the sea. But we just look for example at
the one in, in Mark chapter 4, right?
It's like 431 through 35 or something like that.
In that, that text, you have the sea coming up against the boat,
crashing up against the boat. It's narrated in such a way as
to remind them that, you know, the sea is this kind of cosmic
force that is the thing that God needs to sort of still to make
life and flourishing possible for people.
And that's the thing that's sort of crashing down on them while
they're in the boat. And then there's this crisis
moment where they realize Jesus is sleeping.
And so it's like, you know, we've all had those experiences
in life, if we're being honest, I think where we maybe know
intellectually that God, Jesus is all powerful, but we're like,
where is it right now? Like, I don't see it right now.
I am in desperate need. Like sort of like the psalmists,
right? Like, where are you, right,
Where are you? And so we have that kind of
moment very similar to the Psalms, where the disciples cry
out to Jesus. Don't you care about us?
And then he emerges and the text says he actually rebukes the
wind and the waves. That's the same verb that's used
for, you know, rebuking an evil spirit.
So he silences this hostile force and everything is still.
And then he turns to his disciples, which is in some ways
he's also turning to us when we're hearing this text.
And it's like, you know, where's your, you know, where's your
faith kind of thing, or little faith.
And so it's kind of there's this challenge right to us as
disciples as well. But it's, it's a powerful text,
you know, and it's, it's in its original context.
This is speaking to Christians who are facing harsh
persecution, right? And they're thinking like, OK,
you know, the empire is bearing down on us, you know, is, is how
we believe Jesus is still in the throne.
But like, where is he is he is the Son of man returning on the
clouds. What's going to happen kind of
thing. Those are the questions that
they're wrestling with. So you can imagine how Mark
would be preached in a 1st century house church, you know,
but it still reigns true for us today because we still have
that, you know, those feelings of like the Lord of the
universe. Where are you right now?
Are you, are you still in control?
I want to believe, help my unbelief, you know, all that
kind of stuff. And, and the text just
powerfully demonstrates to us that, yeah, Jesus is Lord over,
over the chaos. He has the power to, you know,
to, to put that, put that down right.
And yeah, there's, there's other things we could get into, but
there's, there's really interesting, for example,
allusions to some of the Psalm texts and to Jonah where, you
know, you have people in the sea and it's the sea is whipped up
and people are crying out to God.
So it very powerfully demonstrates that Jesus is like
the embodiment of the God of Israel there with the people on
the boat. Like that's the power that he's
articulating. It's, it's the God of Israel's
power over the over the sea. I think that's kind of the the
gist of what's going. On very well said.
The couple of the highlights there, like when you were
setting up before going into depicting, you know, the sea
crashing up against the boat, for example, you had talked
about the spiritual warfare perspective and how we are to
be, you know, everything's multi layered in my opinion.
Like the way that I see things, it's not so simple.
So when spiritual warfare is being taught to us, the reality
of the spiritual battle that all of us are involved in, whether
we like to admit it or not, and the body being Christ's main
goal is for the body. It's not denominational
preference. It's not my building, your
building, East Coast, West Coast.
No, it's not. Jesus is looking at every member
of the body on this rock that we call home.
And so when we start to have that unified way of thinking
like the book of Acts, they said one likeness, one mind, one
spirit and that they were working in such a way that there
was an abundance. They were meeting each other's
needs. I think that that is just I
wanted to re highlight that again, just to plant another
seed in the listener's ear of how important that was.
And really you just got me excited and set up the rest of
this, you know, idea that God is sometimes what appears to be
sleeping. And not to prescribe this text
to somebody's situation, but the Bible's there for our teaching,
for our reproof, our correction, right?
And and so this is encouragement, but sometimes it
can appear like God. Are you sleeping on the boat?
And the the waves are crashing all around me.
And it's beautiful to know that the refiners fire the testing.
I believe everything is a test. Everything is a test.
My listeners know that I hammered this idea home from the
simplicity of the guy next door. It's a test.
Be careful, right walk the tight narrow and with what we had laid
down in the beginning of this episode, mentioning this day of
chaos that seems to be happening around us and some people do
feel like God, I've been crying out to you.
Where are you? You know, I, I don't didn't
really plan to mention this, but just for the sake of the
relevancy of it, because this is something I believe we have to
pay attention to Kanye West, one of the biggest quote UN quote,
Christian converts of our day and age, you know, and now he's
publicly coming out, people were celebrating, Oh, he's a
Christian. Listen to his album.
And in my spirit, I've been on record the whole time going
something's off. I don't I don't know about this.
Something's off, right? So I would just watch.
And now he's saying some really blast blasphemous things in the
sense of I'm not going to re quote him, but for most people
that are aware of what's going on out there, he's saying, I
pray to God. God didn't answer me.
So now I'm God. He's making crazy statements.
And it's like the condition of Christianity.
How many, you know, how many millions and millions of people
are going to hear what Kanye said versus thousands of people
that are going to hear what me and you say.
I think it's imperative that we actually take the position to be
accurate to what the Bible has to teach us, just as you did
with the boat scenario. So let's dive into just more of
the authority on Christ and I want you to keep building on man
you. We're really getting some
momentum. I was enjoying hearing you
speak, you know, just about the authority that Christ has and,
and, and how the Bible's connecting in other places about
these entities. The principalities, powers rule
as dominions. Take it from there, brother.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
And, you know, just the one thing on, on, on Kanye too, or
maybe two things. You know, it's I, I haven't
really paid. I, I'm fairly not entirely
illiterate 'cause I mean, I have kids, but when it comes to pop
culture, I'm fairly like removed these days, right?
But I follow a little bit here and there.
And my, my sense with him too, is I, I think, you know, when
people are in the limelight and also struggling with mental
health issues, that can be a really complicated, you know,
scenario. And I'll just kind of leave it
at that. But I, I sense that there's,
there may be some of that going on.
And, and, and then the other thing I would just say too, and
you know, I think you'd probably agree with this is part of the
issue of our day and age is we're in the age of this, you
know, the celebrity and the, it's we, we just idolize our
celebrities, you know, it's called.
And that definitely seeps into the church as well, you know,
and, you know, and so there's just, it's just always good for
us to be mindful of what content we're taking in, who we're
allowing to influence us. Just because somebody has a big
platform or sounds really great doesn't necessarily mean that
they're a great, you know, a great influence or a great
teacher. We just have to be wise and
discerning, you know? And Jesus says that in Matthew
7, you'll know them by their fruit.
So, and that, that's part of why we have to be connected to each
other 'cause it's really hard to know the fruit of a person if
you're not living with them daily or, or around them.
You can, you can kind of miss that, but we, we have to do our
best to be discerning. And yeah, so back to the, the
powers, right? So there's AI think there's a
couple things going on, but Paul, Paul talks about, you
know, rulers and authorities and powers and what he has in mind
here are kind of cosmic, larger cosmic entities.
He doesn't define them in detail.
Like we sometimes think of like different archangels maybe
having names or things like that.
But there are some kind of perhaps like angelic beings or
maybe vaguer terms you might want to use.
But he has this sense of these larger cosmic entities that are
some of which are hostile against human beings that are
desiring to basically to sow division among human beings, to
oversee corrupt dealings. Even at like larger levels.
You get this in, you know, this might may ring a bell depending
on how much you listen to like Michael Heizer you you get this
in Jewish apocalyptic with different angelic beings
overseeing nations in some texts.
So there's an idea of like, I think what it all comes down to
because on some level it's it's hard, or at least I feel like
it's hard to fully define exactly what's going on
metaphysically, right? And all these kind of areas, I
know people have visions and things like that and I'm totally
open to that. But if we're just working kind
of from text, there's a lot of different kind of traditions and
things like this going on. But I, I think at a broad level,
it is, it's a way of saying, yes, there is, there's something
going on in the world that's more than just bad people doing
bad things. Like there's, there's kind of
cosmic structural issues. There's that are also so it's
like human beings are responsible, they make bad
decisions, but we're also being impacted and influenced in
certain ways from other, you know, other entities, even at a,
you know, larger population levels, right.
That's kind of the idea and I think Paul has that idea.
You know, he brings that idea in and and that's a that was a
major issue of what's wrong with the world.
So when he's going to talk about what Christ has done to put it
right, his ultimate victory right over all these hostile
powers, the last of which is Donatas death, You know, he's
going to talk about Christ being enthroned over these entities
and that the church, it's not so much that the church like get
some special insight into what each one is like as the church
stands against these by living the Jesus way, right.
So the Jesus way is the of love, self giving love.
That's the way that God has designed us to function as human
beings, because that's who God is in God's self.
And by doing that, we very, very clearly actually end up
resisting the, these hostile entities and their, the
ideologies that they've sown in the world of selfishness, pride,
arrogance, violence, you know, these kind of things that tear
human beings and communities apart, that the church is
supposed to be this alternative community, the body of Christ
that is different. So that that's kind of one
thing, you know, that that that's going on.
And then you also have in the texts, you know what we probably
think more so of when people think of spiritual warfare,
which are encounters with with like wicked spirits.
The New Testament refers to them often as unclean spirits, which
sounds kind of weird to us, but it's kind of an extension of the
idea of ritual purity from the Old Testament that you can be in
like, a clean or an unclean state.
Right. But this is an idea.
Yeah. This is an idea though of kind
of extended from that, that they had a sense also that sin, they
described sin as in some cases defiling the person or
corrupting the person. And this is kind of moves beyond
that to think of certain spirits that can enter to the person and
defile the person. So that's why the New Testament
frequently talks about unclean spirit, sorry, what we would
call demons as unclean spirits. It uses both terms.
It uses, you know, daimonion demon, but often it uses unclean
spirits. Yeah, to to describe.
So Jesus is walking on the water, the disciples are on the
boat. He calls Peter out to him.
In some translations, we see the language being used where he's
like, I'm not a ghost, right? You know what I mean?
He's like, it's, it's me. And I think that this is
fascinating. But, you know, that's in the
English though. So I'm glad that you're here to
help with this concept. Do we see a correlation between,
you know, spirit and and unclean spirit or ghost is there
because. Yeah.
What are we really doing with that through like the poetry of
the ancient Israel mindset, Hebrew mindset, 'cause it's just
a whole different conversation, but.
Yeah, let me check. I think I, I, I can pull that up
real quick. I'm I'm pretty sure it's
Phantasma is the Greek. Term Phantasma.
Interesting. And so, yeah.
And and so in this, in this context, yeah, you're right.
So in this context, what it is is they are they, they actually
see Jesus walking past them. And that, interestingly enough,
is actually an illusion. He wanted to pass by them.
That's probably an allusion to Job nine 10911 in the Septuagint
where God says I passed by you on the sea.
It's playing with this idea of like the disciples, like Jesus
being God with them, but they're not really recognizing it,
right, Like it does. It's kind of playing with that
idea a little bit. Yeah, But yes, you're right.
So they, what it reports here is they're saying to themselves
it's a ghost. So they're making this judgement
about Jesus. And that term there has more to
do with like kind of an apparition, an apparition of a,
of a deity, or it could be a, you know, some kind of divine
being, right? You have to recognize in the
ancient world, it's populated with God.
So to call like there are various, but the apparition of
some kind of God or divine being or whatever, that's more what's
being used there. That's not a term that's used of
the the spirits in other texts. So it's like a different.
Yeah, 'cause I know. I think it's Second Samuel.
Hopefully I didn't butcher this, but drawing from memory, I'm not
easy with chapter and verse. I usually just get enough of the
meat to know when something rises up in me, like, is this
important? Right.
Ask a question. Well, Samuel, you know, the
witch of Endor, we have this scenario.
Saul is there. And.
The witch calls up Samuel and she's using this language, at
least the way it conveys in the English is one like a son of God
or I don't know if that is referencing Benihana Elohim or
what really is going on there the Hebrew, but that he's coming
up he's he's illuminated right. And so what's the language being
used in that verse? Is there a correlation with what
we're seeing in the New Testament with same concepts
spirit? You know, just to strange
question I have. No, that's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
What's the exact? Is it give you the exact
reference real quick And Samuel? Yeah, OK.
First, First Samuel 28 seven is where Saul is asking for the
serve. And find me a woman who is a
medium that I may go inquire of her. 28 eight.
So Saul disguises himself because he bans all of the
witches in the land, right, the necromancy.
So he's like having trouble finding one now.
And you know, he has to disguise himself.
So First Samuel 28 nine, the woman says, look, you know what
Saul has done? He has cut off the mediums of
the land. Then the woman said, whom shall
I bring up for you? Verse 11?
And he said, bring up Samuel for me.
When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.
And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, why have you deceived me
for? So we're at 13.
First Samuel 2813 is right where we're getting into this.
Oh yeah, I saw. A spirit ascending out of the
earth. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
I see. That's New King James, not my
favorite version to read from, but but that's the language
we're getting in the English there.
Any correlations? Anything of interest do you
think? Yeah, I don't know, like there's
their language here is used of a God, right?
An Elohim. Elohim.
Yeah, yeah. And, and then yeah, so, yeah,
yeah. So it's I saw, literally I saw
gods ascending. Yes, not well.
That's using other translations. Elohim I the I am being plural
right? Chera beam Seraphim being.
Correct. Yeah.
And it's, and it's understood here as a plural.
So with with Elohim in the Old Testament, right, The you always
it can Elohim can refer to God, the God of Israel and as well as
other divine beings. It's a plural noun, right?
So you always have to look at context, but I'm looking at the
Greek Septuagint, and it renders it as theus, which would be God,
God's plural. So yeah, it it, it understands
it the same way, which makes sense.
I mean, contextually, you're not seeing Yahweh rising out of the
earth here. You're seeing the other, you
know, these other underworlds, underworld spirits or gods or
whatever. Yeah.
Very interesting to think about. I love.
Yeah, but you're right. I I mean the connection here
would be. Would be similar in that the
kind of manifestation of seeing a divine being, a God like that.
That's the kind of thing the disciples are connecting on the
boat. Right.
And we're getting a different root understanding for an
unclean spirit. We're not we don't have a
correlation in the same way spirits being recognized in
these two places where we can kind of see a universal
agreement where it bolts together.
We're looking at Elohim or gods or a spirit comes up in Samuel's
case with the witch of Endor. And also I loved, you know,
that's the first time I've ever heard that put together where
when you were saying Jesus was almost trying to pass by them
and correlating that to Job. Man, that made me jump.
I got. Oh yeah.
It's a cool little. It's a cool little connection
there. Yeah.
That's one of those little love it.
Yeah. You find love it?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, no, yeah.
I was just gonna affirm what you're saying.
The the, I think you won't find the idea of unclean spirits in
the Old Testament, except for maybe there's one text in
Zechariah that uses it, I think kind of metaphorically.
But the term starts to show up in the in the late 2nd temple
period. So the couple 100 years before
Jesus, you see this term used also in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
some other texts. So it's it's a little bit later
developing than some of our other Old Testament texts.
Interesting. Yeah.
Jesus being seen, you know, the I am being seen in the Old
Testament and he can be presented from the Old
Testament. Is that something that you have
spent some time on and feel passionate about?
Yeah. Can you run that thing home?
What do you want to do with that?
Yeah, man, sure. Well, I mean, there's so many
different places you could you could go with this, right?
And some of them are like more explicit sort of in your face
than others. So I mean, an obvious example
would be Gospel of John where, you know, they're arguing with
him about, you know, Abraham. And then he says, well before
Abraham was Egoemi, I am now that that Greek phrase ego and
me can mean many things. It's used all over the New
Testament to mean different things.
But in that context, it's very obvious what he's saying.
He's referring to what the Lord said to Moses when he revealed
himself in the Bush. I am who I am, or I will be who
I will be. The Hebrew can be translated
either way, but he's taking basically a piece of that that
revelation. So it's like the God's, God's
name or as it were, or kind of his name.
He sort of obfuscates giving Moses the name because he's not
like other deities that you can control when you have the name,
right? So it's kind.
Of older you can control these in the book.
Yeah. And that's, that's right.
Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's all over
the place, right. I mean, that's why, that's why
the the the Spirit or Legion, this legion asks Jesus, you
know, or tries to identify him. I know who you are, Jesus,
you're the southernmost high. Like he's trying to use Jesus
name. And then Jesus says, what's your
name to back to right. So, yeah, there's a lot of power
in knowing the name. Yeah, you get it everywhere.
I mean, in the Odyssey, for example, when Odysseus has
escaped the Cyclops and is leaving the leaving the island
on the boat, he makes this mistake of hubris and looks back
at the cyclops and shouts out, you know, now like you, I know
that you've been bested by Odysseus.
And then the Cyclops is like, oh, now I know who you are.
Boom. And nails it, right.
So it's it's everywhere. The name gives you power.
So yeah, I mean, back to the whole thing.
Yahweh is not going to be manipulated in that way.
So he's I am who I am. I will be who I will be, but
that that's what Jesus is picking up on when he what he
says, you know, before Abraham was I am that that's just a a
really obvious, you know, claim. And and then, of course, you
know, you go all the way back to the beginning of John's Gospel.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God.
The word was God, right. So John is showing us here that
Jesus is what's what's being used here is God or this word,
the Greek word theos is being predicated to Jesus because he's
distinguishing son and Father as different persons.
But they're both properly Theos. They're both God, right?
And and to use our, our Trinitarian language, but I
mean, this is a call back to the beginning of Genesis.
Jesus, the word was the one through whom you know, the
Father creates. And then in verse 14, he has the
word has taken on flesh, dwelt among us.
That dwelling language is the term Skanao, which is to
Tabernacle. We've seen his glory.
So what what what John is saying to us here is that the
incarnation is the Tabernacle of God coming down to be with us,
right? So when you're encountering
Jesus, in other words, you're encountering the temple.
Well, that that's the divine presence.
That's where God is encountered, right?
So that's a really strong claim of, you know, Jesus as God in
the flesh, God with, with people.
So. Quick question though, when I
think it's in Jude when the author is saying the angels that
disrobed of their former estate. Oh, you want to get into that?
Yeah. Would love to.
They're these angels are in chains of bondage under the
earth. I think the Greek word was
ocarion and and that's referencing the flesh or the
vessel. Am I remembering that correctly
by chance? But.
I don't know. Let me I can look it up real
quick. Yeah, I'm.
Pretty sure. Starts in like June.
Yeah, Jude 1-6 maybe. I don't know, I'm really bad
with chapter. You got it right.
It's Jude Six. OK.
And the good news with Jude, it's so short, there's no
chapters. So it's just yeah.
So they're these angels are guarded.
They didn't. Yeah, right.
They failed to guard their, you know, position of authority.
They abandoned it. Yeah, correct.
It is correct. Oikiterion.
So they're dwelling place. Yeah.
This is an allusion to what some would call the Watcher tradition
based on the Book of First Enoch.
It's a tradition that's very popular and widespread in late
Second Temple Judaism as a, you know, kind of an explanation of
what's gone on wrong in the world and in the Watcher
tradition. And you see this kind of hinted
at actually in Genesis 6 before the flood account where the, the
bin Elohim come down, the sons of God.
It's the same tradition. The, the cause of evil and
violence in the world is from this fall, if you like.
It's, you know, we often think of Genesis 3 as the fall or
whatever, but literally these fallen, these these creatures,
the the Nephilim comes from the Hebrew root to fall.
So they're literally the fallen ones, right?
Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah.
And even the, in the, in the, in the watcher tradition, the
explanation for the origin of like evil spirits also comes
from the offspring of these angelic beings with, with women.
So Jude is just sort of like swimming in this water.
Jude knows this tradition and is referencing this tradition not
to make some deeper point about this tradition, but to talk
about he's basically got like a litany of bad stuff, bad
characters, because he's talking about certain false teachers in
the church. So it's it's sort of like a, an
old school burn, if you will. Like he's like stacking up, you
know, he's kind of roasting these guys a little bit.
False teachers. Yeah.
Now what about when we go to Genesis 3, the seed war, you
know, the seed of the serpent being at enmity with the seed of
the woman. Do we see?
I mean, I know that personally, I hold the view where I see the
thread for the Nephilim, right, The law first mentioned, even in
Job, if you prescribe to that, where we see the angels are
applauding the celebration, they're the same word.
There's Benihah Elohim. And then when we go to Genesis
64, like you just mentioned, the Benihah, the Benihah Elohim saw
the Banatha Dom, the daughters of Adam that they were fair,
right. And then the Nephilim are in the
earth in these days. And everyone's like it's some
some translations. You see giant there.
We get Gigantis from the Greek right.
Kia So I've heard all these arguments on every side.
I've had guests like Gary Wayne on thoroughly 5-6 part series.
We've hammered the idea home, the visible ones, the invisible
ones, right? But what I love about you being
here with me in the seat is your heart and your passion and just
letting the text be what it is, you know, and coming from an
expertise in in the New Testament in the Bible and
having that heart posture just to say, well, let's go there.
Let's see what the final authority has to say about it.
Do we see any threads from Genesis three to six four to the
tower of Babel, Nimrod becoming a mighty man or a mighty heart
before the Lord? What what's happening language
wise there and is there interconnectivity?
Yeah, I, I think the short answer is there absolutely is
interconnectivity because I mean, you have to keep in mind
the the people that wrote the Bible, the the Old Testament,
the New Testament comes together in a shorter time and in a kind
of more compressed format. But the writers of the Hebrew
text, they, they absolutely love interconnectivity and drawing
these threads for us. And they do that with word play,
as you alluded to it, like, you know, linguistic hooks.
So when you have, you know, Abel killed by Cain, right, there's
hooks from that back to the garden tradition, like the
garden story. And then Seth is seen as kind of
like the New Hope for the seed of the woman, right?
Produced. By.
Right. So there's there's absolutely
this thread is kind of running, running through throughout.
So I just refer to it as the primeval history.
That's Genesis one through 11. That's what scholars refer to it
as. But yeah, there's there's,
there's all kinds of these, you know, sort of connections.
And so, yeah, I don't know if you have anything like specific
that you were wondering. Can you comment on like Hebrew
poetry right for these concepts and these threads?
Because I know, at least from my understanding about Hebrew
poetry, it's not rhythmic in language or in Word.
Like like all poetry, it's rhythmic in storytelling, right?
So it's kind of like what we're talking about, that we see these
threads showing up and happening, you know, with Cain
and Abel. You see glimmers of that in the
garden when you see, umm, what is his name?
Uh, Joseph in Egypt, he has the cup bearer dreams, right?
One of the cup, the bread guy gets killed.
You see some glimmers of the gospel in that, like the body is
killed, the cup bearer right, is restored.
And he and Joseph says in the prison cell like, hey, don't
forget about me. Remind, you know, remind of what
my interpretation of this dream to the king, right?
And like, I see the gospel in that.
There's an allusion to the Joseph.
There's a actually, there's an allusion to the Joseph story,
you know, when his brothers see him coming from afar and they're
nice. All right, we're gonna, there's
an allusion to that in the Gospels, in the the parable of
the wicked tenants, when Jesus tells this parable about, you
know, different servants that come or sorry, you know, the
Lord sends different servants and they, they beat him, they
go. And then finally he sees the
they he sends the son and they see the son coming, you know,
and they say, let's kill him. That's an allusion back to the
Joseph story in that, you know, that parable.
Yeah. So definitely.
Like you have what are called typological connections, you
know, from the old to the New Testament.
Another great example is, you know, it's so crazy.
You think about Genesis and this back and forth, you know, from
the land to Egypt, which is obviously playing itself out
leading up to the Exodus. But then if you think about
like, OK, so how did the people of Israel get to Egypt?
It was an act of God preserving them during the time of a famine
through Joseph going to Egypt. And then you go to the New
Testament, the first book, the New Testament is Matthew.
And in order to preserve Jesus's life, they go to Egypt.
Joseph. Joseph takes the family to
Egypt. And then he quotes Hosea, 11,
one out of Egypt. I've called my son.
So, yeah, yeah, there's these kind of connections there that.
And The thing is, from your view is that is literal, right?
You actually believe Jesus as a child goes into Egypt
physically, right? Oh oh. 100%, yeah.
Yeah, I, I assume so. But like, I know that with so
many figures of speech, there's a lot of strange stuff that that
goes on in Christianity where people say, oh, that's just an
archetype, that's a parable. That's only for, you know, it's
just idealism about something that didn't actually happen,
right? Like, so when God says hide
under the wing of the Almighty, it doesn't mean God have wings.
Like, that's just a poetic phrase to, you know, he's
painting a picture that resonates throughout the ages
that a mother hen or any bird of that sort would hide their their
chicks under the wing. Right.
So it doesn't mean God has wings all of a sudden.
Yeah. But like so some places in the
Bible, Lord. Is Jesus right When Jesus goes
Jerusalem, I've longed to have, you know, huddle you under my
wings like on your. Chick, he's doing.
Jesus is doing the same thing, right?
He's he's he's actually alluding to the same kind of stuff in the
prophetic positioning. Yeah.
So it's really fascinating to, you know, just learn this as I'm
going along and just hear, you know, just just for it to be
deepened and, and to excite the idea that I believe the Bible
means what it says, says what it means.
I think it's literal unless it cannot be taken literal, you
know, And then I look at different formats of speech as
being poetic or, you know, yeah. I think that's really important,
what you said there is really paying attention to the kind of
writing that's involved, or we call it genre and and what the
writer's trying to do. Right, 'cause that's right.
We want to understand scripture. What can sometimes happen is we
take literal to mean whatever makes common sense to us.
And then the mistake there is that what's common to us might
not be common sense to the to the writer, right?
So, yeah, yeah, reading the Bible in the in the Protestant
tradition, reading the Bible literally, literally meant for
the Reformers trying to understand what the biblical
authors meant to communicate, which meant which meant you have
to pay attention to history, context, type of speech, all of
that, all the stuff you're talking about, you have to do
that. Sometimes when people say today
I read the Bible literally, they just mean, well, I take it at
face value and this is what it looks like it's saying.
So it's got to mean that. And it's like, well, no, let's,
you know, keep in mind and there's a lot, lot of time gap.
We got to pay attention to context.
You know all that. Very well said.
And that reminds me of the Greek word for training, Gunanzo.
I think it is intense intervals of training, right?
And it's like that's. Breathe.
Yeah, yeah, we have to train. I need to show yourself well
approved knowing to rightly divide the word that you will
not be ashamed right. So it's an individual case like
but for as many of us that are on this journey out there, I
think it's really worthwhile, you know, to read the Bible for
yourself, but also be teachable and and just learning the
ancient cultural context of things and and understanding.
I was blown away, dude, the whole entire if your eye be
dark, then how great is the evil in you versus your eye be light.
And then Doctor Mike Davis is going through and he's talking
about the understanding the language at the time was
generosity for light. So if if you be generous, your
body's foot and he's alluding to this, this, you know, local
cadence that would have been understood completely in Jesus
time. And we've read it today and
we're like, oh, if your eyes dark, oh, you know, if people
can make anything out of that, I've heard so many wild things.
I'm like, no, please, someone help us.
Right. Yeah, yeah.
That's the anointing to break the yoke on this.
Yeah, and, and we just have to. You're right.
We have to be really careful. We're all gonna make mistakes,
right? And we're all, I think what you
said about being teachable is so important.
The more time I've spent studying the Bible, a kind of
like a, in more academic kind of context, the more I'm aware of
how little I actually know. So I'm, I, I think the more
humility can actually be a sign that you, you actually know
something, You know, you're aware that there's just a lot
out there. And it's not like we have to be
afraid. You know, we have sufficient
knowledge and we can grow in that knowledge.
But but like, we don't have to pretend or act like to be a
disciple of Jesus, we have to have the answer to every
question, right? Some some things, some things we
won't have the answer to ever. Some things we might get better
answers to, but we have to do some work, some study, you know,
but we don't have to operate from a position of like, you
know, fear of OK, you know, I have to have the correct one
thing on every single thing and if it.
Doesn't have to be like aggressive and defensive like I
need to win this argument. Like no, this is a lifestyle and
it should be a life journey as well.
Amen. Yeah, I agree.
Yeah. And I wanna sharpen and finding
so many other people that are in that area has really been
uplifting because now there's it's like, I thought I was alone
in the beginning. And it's like, no, you're,
you're never alone. You're gonna meet hundreds of
people as you go and just and. For, for all of the bad stuff,
the, the, the, the garbage we're dealing with when it comes to
social media and Internet and all this kind of stuff, that is
one thing that is I think a blessing.
Like we, we have the ability to connect with, with people and
with sources of information in ways that are just
unprecedented. And it's great we take advantage
of that, you know, and it's great that you're doing this
podcast and giving people the opportunity to journey with you
and think about scripture and and encourage, you know, just
encouraging one another. That's a great opportunity we
have so. So, well, let me let me ask you
a final question and we'll kind of wind down here for for a part
one. But what, in your opinion, is
the most important encouragement for the millennial generation
today? That's a great question.
I guess I'm an older millennial, like very tip of that
generation. So I think I'll just speak from
the heart here and say Jesus is far greater, far better than the
brokenness, the toxic brands of Christianity, the
authoritarianism, the anyisms that we, you know, encounter in
our world that we see in the church.
You know, Jesus is greater, he's worth it and cling to him.
Continue to to follow him even when you're wondering like,
where am I? Do I belong in church?
Where do I belong? I've asked myself that question
sometimes, like where do I belong?
Who are my people? Because what I see going on
here, I don't know if I want to be a part of this or I just
don't know if I fit in or or whatever it may be.
But what keeps me going is Jesus, you know, it's he is, I
believe with every fiber of my being.
He's the Lord of the world. He he rose from the dead, as he
said. I mean, if that if we got I, I'm
going to steal a quote from from NT Wright that he had shared on
my. Podcast when I interviewed him,
which he stole from a London taxi cab driver.
So it's like 3 stages removed, but I thought it was so good.
He said, you know, he said the taxi cab driver turned around at
him and said, well, if Jesus rose from the dead, it's all
everything else is pretty much rock'n'roll, isn't it?
And he's like, you know what that's that's about right.
Like, so if that is true, then it makes work following Jesus
worth it no matter what. But I, I want to say beyond
that, like there is a lot of, I think millennials are, are aware
of a lot of the hypocrisy and the struggles in the church and
just forms of Christianity that maybe just don't really reflect
well who Jesus is. And so there's hunger, there's a
desire for people to love one another, for justice, you know,
for all these really good things.
And I want to affirm all those things and just say that I think
those things are ultimately found in Christ.
And that's where, you know, that's where we, that's where we
find our true selves. That's where we find our true
identity. I don't know, I feel like I'm
rambling a little bit, but I'm kind of talking to myself in a
way as well because I mean, these are things that I think
about quite a bit. So.
First, John 411, beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to
love one another. I really enjoyed having you
here, man. It was refreshing.
We jumped around a little bit, like there's so many threads I
wanted to stay on, but I'm like, oh wait, what about this?
So I would love to just invite you back for Part 2 down the
road. It was an honor.
Thank you. Thank you, Rod.
I really appreciate it. This is a really fun
conversation. Thanks.
Well, that's the episode you guys.
I'm going to ask you to share this with your friends, family
members, Co workers, share it with your pastor, with your
doctor coming to you from Southeastern Pennsylvania.
God bless and goodbye. This is Boy Brandon.
Thank you for tuning into the Millennial Muscle seat.
My favorite podcast. Thought I was on my dead bed.
On my dead bed. I was really stressing.
I was stressing all that stressing.
It didn't turn depression. Thought the Lords don't want me
to let you go and learn this lesson.
Thought I was on my dead bed, me stressing and I was caught up in
my feelings. I was thinking reckless.
Thought the Lord don't want me let you go learn this lesson.
I was so deep in my tender I didn't see forgiveness.
Learn this lesson. You gonna learn this lesson And
my mind ain't turn on me like I was feeling helpless.
I ain't know which way to turn. Like I got inside my dead way.
I was defeating the ground, running in my casket.
I was dead and gone. Didn't see the light, couldn't
find my way home, couldn't fight 'cause I knew I was wrong.
No one inside. I was all alone.
Yeah. Yeah.
But he changed all my ways. Saw me deep up in my sin.
And pull me out. The grape said he shed his blood
for me. So I'm only this way now.
Just repent of all your sins. I'll show Amazing Grace.
Sometimes I think about. Sometimes I think about life
without you. What would I be about?
Be about? Where would I be if I didn't
have you? Sometimes I think about.
Think about. Sometimes I think about a life
without you. What would I be about?
Be about where would I be if I didn't have you who thought I
was on my dead end or my dead end?
I was really stressing. I was stressing all that
stressing needed to turn depression.
Thought the Lord don't want me like you gonna learn this lesson
now. I'm on my way up my way up don't
hold me Instead I just had to shake him, had to put my trust
in Jesus cause eat away Yahweh, Yahweh never be the same.
Let the whole me in the water right in Jesus name and I'm the
Holy Spirit. Now I'm really safe.
No more time for all my feelings.
Got to walk in faith and I'm ready for every battle that come
my way. No I ain't joking.
Holy Ghost fire filling me down to smoking.
If you want it, you can get it. Got that power inside of me and
he is really potent. Every captain will be free.
Every devil got to flee, and not because of me, but they got
inside of me. Sometimes I think about,
sometimes I think about life without you.
What would I be about? Where would I be if I didn't
have you? Sometimes I think about,
sometimes I think about a life without you.
What would I be about? Where would I be if I didn't
have you? I was really stressing.
I was stressing. Yes, welcome to the millennial
seat. Sorry, what is it called?
Millennial seed must. Millennial mustard seed.
Yeah, that's it. Millennial mustard tongue
twister.