1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,720 We know that microplastics are bad for us, but we just don't 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,960 know exactly how bad they are. So both of these agencies have 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,880 really made a, you know, they've been talking a lot about how 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,400 they really want to invest in that research and that is why 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,040 these items get put on the CCL. Welcome to the Environmental 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,000 Transformation Podcast, where we bring you interviews with 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,680 industry leaders, climate champions, sustainability 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,480 practitioners, EHS and hazmat professionals making an impact 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,520 in their businesses today. Each leader solving complex 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,280 challenges and delivering solutions within their areas of 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,080 expertise. I'm your host, Sean Grady, and 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,360 thanks for joining us today. Before we jump in, make sure to 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,240 follow us on your devices and visit my website at 14 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,440 www.seankgrady.com and sign up for our newsletter and e-mail 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,440 announcements. Now let's get started. 16 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,240 Welcome to the Environmental Transformation Podcast. 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,400 I'm your host, Sean Grady. Today's guest is Megan Quinn. 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,280 Megan She is a senior. Reporter for waste. 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,760 Dive and has been covering the waste and recycling industry for 20 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,720 over a decade. Her beats include state and 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,240 federal recycling policy, P Foss, chemical recycling, 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,080 environmental justice, and EPA regulatory changes. 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,440 She lives in the Washington, DC area and we're excited to have 24 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,840 her on the show. Welcome, Megan. 25 00:01:17,320 --> 00:01:20,040 Thanks for having me. Recently you guys put out a 26 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,320 little piece on the new contaminant candidate list, the 27 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:26,880 CCL 6 list. Sorry about that, was kind of 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,360 spit that out. A lot of anchor nervous in in 29 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:30,520 the EPA. Yeah, I. 30 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,720 Know right, there's so much coming out of the EPA right now, 31 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,600 but you know, as I read the the new list and the and discussions 32 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,000 around I thought, wow, this is interesting. 33 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,200 You guys have a good take on it. I thought let's get together and 34 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,840 talk about this and so welcome to the show. 35 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,760 Let's dive in here. Yeah. 36 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,400 Tell us a little bit about your role there at Waste Dive before 37 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,280 we do so we can kind of get a flavour for what you're 38 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,760 covering, how you're, you know, what's important to you guys at 39 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,680 at Waste Dive and, and what the industry response is bad. 40 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,080 Yeah, so I'm a senior reporter for Waste Dive. 41 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,760 A big part of what I cover is happenings in the EPA, 42 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,440 particularly how those things are going to relate to laced and 43 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,760 landfill operators. So anytime the EPA makes a 44 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,200 decision, talks about making a decision, publishes something 45 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,240 new on a list like we'll talk about today, you know, our 46 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,560 readers wonder how that's going to affect them. 47 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:30,360 And typically when I'm covering ETA related regulations, a lot 48 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,640 of times it's related to PFOS. So I'll probably talk about that 49 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,080 a lot today because there are some parallels, even though 50 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,520 microplastics and pharmaceuticals are not the same 51 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,960 as PFOS, but there's some parallels in terms of how ETA is 52 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,480 kind of starting to talk about them. 53 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,200 It's a good point. There are a lot of parallels 54 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,080 with that, absolutely, With the EPA recently, you know, 55 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,880 proposing this new CCL 6. It is kind of a big deal in the 56 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,520 industry. And if we look at this, you 57 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,320 know, the list includes microplastics, which is a big 58 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,360 deal, I think in the industry. Because now they're really 59 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,600 wanting to figure out how bad or what impact do microplastics 60 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,320 have on the human body, which is I think a good thing. 61 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,160 Also, they're going to also look at additional pharmaceuticals on 62 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,320 the list for the first time in your view. 63 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,080 Why is this a watershed? Moment for Safe Drinking Water 64 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,280 Act and what does it tell us about the EP as current 65 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,800 priorities? Well, I think this is really 66 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,640 interesting because as you said, this is the first time 67 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:31,520 microplastics and pharmaceuticals are included on 68 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,800 this CCL. So the contaminant candidate 69 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,480 list, just to back up a little bit, this is a list that the EPA 70 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,960 has to publish every so often. I believe it's every three to 71 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,040 five years. I should have, I don't know 72 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,240 exactly, but it's, it's a pretty it, it's pretty common that 73 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,280 we'll see additions to this list. 74 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,160 But what this list is, it's not a regulation. 75 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,520 It's just a sort of signal that the EPA is going to be looking 76 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,160 into these materials more closely and getting more 77 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,200 research into them because these items on this list might 78 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,520 eventually be regulated, but nothing on the CCL is a 79 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,440 regulation itself. But to go back to your original 80 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,560 question, you know, adding microplastics is really 81 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,120 interesting because we are seeing, you know, people really 82 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,120 concerned about what microplastics might be doing to 83 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,760 our bodies. And the EPA specifically, when 84 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,920 they made this announcement, they made it alongside, you 85 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,360 know, the the Maha movement that Make America Healthy Again 86 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,960 movement because that agency is doing some parallel research 87 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,880 into microplastics. And the two agencies together 88 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,920 are really trying to deliver this united front and say, hey, 89 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,680 we need to do more research on microplastics and how they're 90 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,080 affecting human health. We're going to do it together in 91 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,080 some different ways. And that might end up signalling 92 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,000 some future regulations. But those things take quite a 93 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,480 long time. You know, federal regulations 94 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,520 take a long time, and adding this to the list is really just 95 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,720 that first initial step. Yeah. 96 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,240 I mean, so right now they've published the list of chemicals 97 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:14,480 and there is a public comment period opening that closes June 98 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,040 5th to 2026. So right now the EP as got it, 99 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,360 the the published list of priority contaminants out there 100 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:22,560 that they're wanting to focus on. 101 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,520 They want to get more science based information so they can 102 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,520 kind of make better decisions. They say that they're going to 103 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,200 finalize the list in November, on the 17th of November in 2026. 104 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,400 And then that'll kind of like basically, I guess move it 105 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,400 towards the UCMR program. I believe is kind of at some 106 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,520 point what that'll end up happening. 107 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,920 But and then they'll figure out where they're going to go with 108 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,240 the with the various chemicals that they want to list. 109 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,440 For those unfamiliar with this process, what now has to happen 110 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,200 with this draft? I mean, we've got this are we 111 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,440 wait, we're just going to be waiting to hear and, and you 112 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,920 know, walk through, walk us through maybe some of the, the 113 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,520 journey of this, of this substance takes to go through 114 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,480 this process before it's actually regulated. 115 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,040 Yeah, it's a bit of AI. Don't want to say it's a 116 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,800 mystery, but because, you know, there are so many items on this 117 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,680 list and not all of those do end up becoming regulated in certain 118 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,520 ways. It's not clear like which ones 119 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,760 actually end up becoming part of a regulation later on. 120 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,440 One thing that like you mentioned, so ETA does have to 121 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,640 go through public comment period. 122 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,240 This is just a 60 day period. So they're really asking people 123 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,680 to get in quick and get those comments in. 124 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:32,200 Yeah. That's. 125 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,080 For sure, yeah. And, and nothing, I don't always 126 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:41,240 notice EPA saying a specific day that they plan to release 127 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,520 regulation. So I think that's also 128 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,600 interesting to me that kind of signals that they're pretty 129 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,560 serious about just like getting this going. 130 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,080 But one other thing they have to do is they do have to run it 131 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,120 through there. It's an independent science 132 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,440 Advisory Board. Before finalizing that list, the 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,120 science Advisory Board is made-up of a bunch of different 134 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,720 individuals with different backgrounds who take this 135 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,800 independent lens. And this is something that has 136 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,720 been around for a long time. But when one interesting note is 137 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,520 that that board was completely reset when the Trump 138 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,720 administration came into office for the second time. 139 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,720 So everybody who was, I think almost everybody who was on that 140 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,240 board ended up leaving, were asked to leave. 141 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,920 And we do see this happen when there's administration changes. 142 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,520 I know that during the Biden administration, they did 143 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,160 reshuffle a few people on that board. 144 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,040 But on just last week, they, the administration announced who is 145 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,480 going to be the next people on this science board, which I 146 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,440 think might give us an indication on what kind of lens 147 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,160 some of these chemicals are going to take. 148 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,960 Because some of the the people who have been added to this 149 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,640 board include people who used to work for Dow, Kimors, DuPont, 150 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,440 things like that. So we're really seeing that kind 151 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,200 of shift towards maybe more industry focused advisory panel. 152 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,200 So all that to say that there's a lot been a lot of changes in 153 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,280 the EPA obviously from the time that the Trump administration 154 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,400 took office again. So it's a little unclear sort of 155 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,440 what the next steps are other than the steps of the EPA has 156 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,080 already said. So public comment period, 157 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,000 they're expecting to potentially sign this and make this official 158 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,960 by November and go through this advisory period in the meantime. 159 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,600 And I think where it's going to be interesting to see sort of 160 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,440 like what happens in the meantime, so. 161 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:27,680 Yeah. It's going to be interesting to 162 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,320 see what that Advisory Board does with the review process 163 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,960 when when these that chemicals are finalized after November, 164 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,720 how do they make it to the next level of the review process? 165 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,680 When we talk about who is affected by the CCL 6 list, is 166 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:48,480 this strictly a headache for municipal wastewater or 167 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,080 municipal water utilities or or should private industry really 168 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,600 be looking over their shoulder too? 169 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,520 I think we saw in the case of the last time P Foss were 170 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,440 included on the CCLS that any industry that is even like 171 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,000 remotely related will be taking notice of the CCL. 172 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,640 And again, this is just the draft CCL 6, so nothing set in 173 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,640 stone. But you know, I think public 174 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,640 water systems are obviously they pay close attention to this 175 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,760 list. I looking at some other analysts 176 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,560 and what they had to say about who they think is most affected. 177 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,240 It's pretty, some pretty standard folks, right, like 178 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,720 folks who work in, you know, chemical manufacturing, anybody 179 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,760 who works in pharmaceutical manufacturing are probably just 180 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,240 going to be paying attention to this. 181 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,880 And but I do think that public water systems are, are probably 182 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,920 like the main, the main target audience. 183 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,120 And for our audience, you know, in the waste and recycling 184 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,920 industry, we take note of this list because, you know, anytime 185 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,200 there is eventual regulations for drinking water, you know, 186 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,600 the like landfill operators care about that because their 187 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,560 leachate goes to water treatment systems. 188 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:57,920 So they want to know, hey, is there something I need to be 189 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,240 doing in the interim? Is there going to going to be a 190 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,680 situation where I'm going to have to change what I do or 191 00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:05,120 change my relationship with the water treatment systems? 192 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,280 So specifically from a waste industry, even though the CCL 193 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,840 doesn't really like directly apply to our industry, it 194 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,360 definitely signals things to watch out for in conversations 195 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,640 that maybe waste operators are going to be having with water 196 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,880 treatment systems down the line. Yeah, absolutely. 197 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,200 I mean it's definitely now put, you know these contaminants or 198 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,360 these potential contaminants on their radar. 199 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:33,080 I guess the big question would be for a company is should we 200 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,400 sample, you know, what is the expectation? 201 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,960 My understanding this isn't a regulation that's requiring 202 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,400 somebody to sample. So that's one thing, but should 203 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,760 companies be beginning, you know, should they begin sampling 204 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,360 for these contaminants now or is it too premature to invest in, 205 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,680 you know, any of the monitoring of this before the list is 206 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:54,160 finalized? Yeah, I think that's always the 207 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,480 question that in affected industries have when they start 208 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,560 hearing about potential regulations. 209 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:03,960 We did see like down a couple years ago when the waste 210 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,040 industry was getting wind that certain P Foss might be 211 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:12,200 regulated, not in CCL 5 though there are, there were P Foss in 212 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,520 CCC CL5, but some of those P Foss ended up being regulated as 213 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,880 a separate regulation for you know, drinking water standards 214 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,480 and also 2P Foss were right regulated as hazardous 215 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,760 substances, though both of those things are going through a court 216 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,400 process right now. So those are all up in the air. 217 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,560 But when the industry was getting wind that those might be 218 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,640 regulated, that was a big question, right? 219 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,560 Like do we what we do now, like are we waiting and seeing for 220 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,120 there to be a final regulation before we spend money? 221 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:44,600 We want to get ahead of the curve. 222 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,040 And we did see in the waste industry companies taking both 223 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,320 tack and deciding. Some decided like, yeah, we're 224 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,160 going to just see which way the wind blows. 225 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,560 Others we're investing or partnering with P Foss 226 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,400 management companies to, you know, just kind of get ahead of 227 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,520 it also, because there's also state regulations that are that 228 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,960 happened way before some of these federal regulations. 229 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,560 And I think we're also going to see that with some of the new 230 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,680 materials on the CCL 6 like micro plastics. 231 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,320 However, one day I just did want to mention to when I was at the 232 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,680 EPA for this announcement a couple weeks ago, Jessica 233 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,560 Kramer, who's the the, she's the assistant administrator for the 234 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,960 Office of Water at the EPA. She had made a comment that, you 235 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,080 know, the CCL is not a regulation like we said, but she 236 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,400 kind of framed it as the idea that there is these proposed 237 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:32,880 benchmarks that can come out of it. 238 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,880 And those might be some sort of like just ways for industry 239 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,080 specifically, you know, water treatment facilities to kind of 240 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,040 get some waypoints of what they might want to monitor down the 241 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,280 line. So that it's there's no clear 242 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,400 answer. I guess there's no clear answer 243 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,360 with a lot of these things. But I think we've, we've seen in 244 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,360 the case of PFOS, the industry kind of doing, you know, a 245 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,040 couple different things to sort of prepare. 246 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,440 But you know, the EPA has not told industry, hey, you got to 247 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,480 start monitoring this or hey, you got to start or, or even 248 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,000 like what to measure, right? There's no metrics for a lot of 249 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,480 these things that are on the proposed CCL 6. 250 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,080 Like there's no big, there's no big metrics for microplastics, 251 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,200 for example. I think the big issue that will 252 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,120 be for a lot of companies who are maybe interested in learning 253 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,880 if they actually have microplastics and then some of 254 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,320 these other pharmaceuticals and there's waste dreams would be 255 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,080 that there's not really a good solid standard analytical method 256 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,760 yet, right? I mean, that's the big thing 257 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,880 that the laboratory industry side of the house with this new 258 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,040 proposed CCL 6 list is they need to develop really solid test 259 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,000 methods like PFOS. When it came out, they were 260 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,440 struggling to come up with really solid analytical, 261 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,520 repeatable methods before it could be standardized for 262 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,960 companies to use. And now that they have those, 263 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,400 it's more, you know, adopt, you know, everyone's adopted those 264 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,000 methods, but I don't think that's ready to go yet for some 265 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,440 of these. Parameters, right? 266 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,320 From my understanding and you know, microplastics is not 267 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,280 really something I cover super like compared to like something 268 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,560 like T Foss. But to your point, I mean, I 269 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:16,880 think because there's just not really there's not a lot out 270 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,960 there to point to. There's no yardstick really 271 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,640 right now. And that is something that I 272 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,480 think some, you know, environmental groups have also 273 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,120 brought up as being kind of a, a criticism and something that 274 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,200 they want to see more of. And also a lot of these health 275 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,680 groups that have been kind of influencing the direction that, 276 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,920 you know, the Maha movement is going where they're all staying. 277 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,880 Like, hey, we know that microplastics are bad for us, 278 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,160 but we just don't know exactly how bad they are. 279 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,440 And, you know, so both of these agencies have really made a, you 280 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,920 know, they've been talking a lot about how they really want to 281 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,640 invest in that research. And that is why these items get 282 00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:01,080 put on the CCL, because the CCL is sort of this indication of 283 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,520 what kind of time and resources these agencies, well, 284 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,520 specifically the EPA, is going to put into that research 285 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,560 because there needs to be more research before you can come up 286 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,120 with, you know, metrics and methods. 287 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,480 So yeah. Yeah. 288 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,440 Well, just to kind of look at, you know, how the agency's 289 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,120 approaching this, you know, in Maha, I I got to commend them. 290 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,040 I mean, they are actually trying to address some contaminants 291 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,560 that are a bit of concern or now that are being raised a concern 292 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,920 and they're saying, look, industry, we don't have enough 293 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,160 science, we need to study it, we need to figure it out, let's do 294 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,520 this. This is the process. 295 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,120 That's good, I think, right? Yeah, One thing I would say to 296 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,000 that also. So because I'm sitting, you 297 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,520 know, when I was at the EPA, I was sitting there hearing all 298 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,560 these presentations from these scientists that are saying like, 299 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,840 here's what we're working on, here's what we want to work on. 300 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,360 You know, the the federal government is putting quite a 301 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,960 bit of time and money into this. However, there's also a lot has 302 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,920 been happening at the EPA in the last year. 303 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,680 And one of the things that happened was the name, the main 304 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,440 research office for the EPA was was disbanded and a lot of the 305 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,480 people working in that research office either ended up in other 306 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,920 parts of the agency or potentially were laid off. 307 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,440 And you know, the EPA right now is operating with a a very small 308 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,560 budget. Yeah, like I'm out of people 309 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,320 compared to the last couple years. 310 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,880 So I think another criticism that we are seeing, again, this 311 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,360 is mainly from environmental groups, which are saying like 312 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,200 it's great that the EPA is saying that they want to, you 313 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,040 know, monitor microplastics. Like that's wonderful. 314 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,440 However, they're they eliminated the Office of Research and 315 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,680 Development and that seems to be like working in direct, you 316 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,880 know, is not working in alignment with. 317 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,640 So I mean, depending on I think that's that's going to be 318 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,800 interesting to see sort of what happens, you know, what kind of 319 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,520 time and resources are are put into that research, especially 320 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:53,840 because and and you know, also speaking from, you know, another 321 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,160 side of this, EPA last year rolled back drinking water 322 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,480 standards for certain PFOS. So. 323 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,800 They did. So there's that concern. 324 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,440 I, I don't disagree. There's that concern and maybe 325 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,280 maybe they're thinking along the lines of, and I don't know this 326 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,440 yet to you know, but we need to probably confirm this and some 327 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,800 investigative reporting could help. 328 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,520 But you know, maybe they're going to be outsourcing, you 329 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,839 know, to third party some of this research instead of doing 330 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,920 it in house where you've got industry doing the research is 331 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,240 probably a little more technically advanced than the 332 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,119 EPAI would. I'm just thinking out loud. 333 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,120 I could be wrong, but I feel like there's some good 334 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:34,360 possibility there that maybe the speed of effort too could could 335 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,520 work. I don't know, but let's take a 336 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,240 look at that because maybe that's how they're going to kind 337 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,520 of solve the problem a little bit. 338 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,280 Yeah, that that's actually a great. 339 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:42,480 That's a really interesting point. 340 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,200 If you if you hear of any federal agencies working with 341 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,880 private industry on that, let me know. 342 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,240 I mean, that wouldn't be unheard of. 343 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,560 Obviously right now we're seeing like the DoD, for example, a lot 344 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,880 of their big and like environmental efforts for 345 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,440 battery recycling, for example. This is not the same thing. 346 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,600 But just as an example, you know, the DoD has said like, 347 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,400 hey, we want to work with private industry, like it's 348 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,680 accelerating sort of what we can get out of it. 349 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,080 Here's some money, please do some research for us. 350 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,640 And and we have seen EPA work with, you know, private 351 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,440 companies, public companies on research specifically for PFOS, 352 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,480 for example. Yeah, like, hey, like. 353 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:23,040 You know, it was a huge that they've invested millions into 354 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,440 that. Yeah, yeah. 355 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,480 So this is definitely, this wouldn't be a a radical right, 356 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,520 you know, path, but yeah. And and also because the the 357 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,080 Trump administration has really said like, hey, we're very pro 358 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,760 business. We really want to, you know, 359 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,440 work with more businesses, so. It might be just a just a 360 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,640 different way of skinning the cat, so to speak, but you know, 361 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,920 outside the norms of the traditional government process. 362 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,040 So I don't, I, I mean, just the thought, I don't know, but maybe 363 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,360 that's how they're thinking about doing it. 364 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,560 I think when you look at the, you know, the concern about 365 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,520 this, are there any particular challenges or red flags that 366 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,240 maybe Publix are rising or raising the concerns about 367 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,120 anything there that you've heard so far? 368 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,640 Yeah, I think so. I I went to go to this the 369 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,200 public comment space just to see if EPA had uploaded any public 370 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,960 comments yet for this and I didn't see any that had been 371 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,560 uploaded. But that is actually a great 372 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,640 resource for anybody to look at. If you're wondering, you know 373 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,920 what people are saying directly to the agency about these 374 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,560 proposed, this would be regular. I almost said proposed 375 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,480 regulation. The CCL is not a regulation. 376 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,160 Something will have been uploaded currently. 377 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,360 But you know, just talking to some folks, talking to different 378 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:40,440 sources and things about what either some concerns are or just 379 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,280 what they're looking for. And it kind of goes back to some 380 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,360 of the things that we've been talking about already about. 381 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,880 OK. So we want to potentially for 382 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,640 the regulate some of these materials down the line. 383 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,240 Like how do we even go about doing that? 384 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,520 What's the plan? I think also because like we had 385 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,560 have mentioned before, it's not always clear what sort of has 386 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,600 one. Item from the CCL rise to the 387 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,120 top and kind of end up becoming a different regulatory path 388 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,760 though that I mean the EPA has said you know there's a 389 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,360 combination of different they need, you know certain amount of 390 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,440 research and you know science involved before they can really 391 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,280 like build that path. So I think there's just because 392 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,440 microplastics, for example, are such a new frontier and there's 393 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,200 just so there's so much we don't know. 394 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:32,760 And I think that maybe it's not a red flag necessarily, but when 395 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,120 I'm talking to sources about this, I think that's a big 396 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,200 question that folks have. OK, Like this seems good. 397 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,600 Seems good that it's on this list. 398 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,640 It seems good that it's on EP as radar and you know. 399 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,600 And it takes time to get these chemicals listed. 400 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,440 I mean, so for instance, if we go back to, you know, with the 401 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,520 history of P FOS, P fo, P FOS, P FOS, I think it was initially 402 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:04,520 listed on the CCL 3 back in 2009 and then it was re issued or are 403 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,280 added again with additional parameters in 2019. 404 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,280 I believe on this the, the next CCL are the yeah, the CCL 5. 405 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,800 So it, I mean it does take a while. 406 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,720 And then of course, obviously it became part of the UCMR 5 407 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,880 sampling efforts, which is where the EPA were able to, you know, 408 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:29,120 get a lot more scientific data on the, the, the pervasity of P 409 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,280 Foss throughout the, the drinking water utility systems. 410 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,720 So I think that was interesting. And so it's going to take some 411 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,520 time. Microplastics may not be just 412 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,320 like immediately added to the UCMR, you know 6 list just 413 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,320 because it's here, but it is. Interesting that it's there. 414 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,480 There needs to be some analytical test methods that 415 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,880 are, you know, developed that are reliable, repeatable. 416 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,440 It's a different type of test. I'm sure there's going to be 417 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,080 some interesting conversations with some of the analytical 418 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:58,760 laboratories that are in the industry. 419 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,000 I could think of Eurofense, pace, enthalpy, you know, 420 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,800 there's a handful of them like that that will have a, I'm sure 421 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,160 a position on this and maybe they'll be on the show in the 422 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,640 next months or so because I think that would be a good 423 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,720 conversation. Let me know when that happens. 424 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,880 I'll listen in because that's an area that I, I don't know a lot 425 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,800 about. And you know, I think like we've 426 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,640 seen with I don't know this. So this is a little bit of a 427 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,680 speculation on my part, but because we don't know. 428 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,200 So there's so much we don't know about microplastics. 429 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,440 And this came up in at the EPA announcement too, that there's 430 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,600 so much we don't know about microplastics to the point where 431 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,360 there might be a case where different types of microplastics 432 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:39,240 might be regulated different ways if there does end up being 433 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,880 a regulation down the line. That's that wasn't something 434 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,640 that that came up when folks were speaking at the EPAA couple 435 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,880 weeks ago. And we, I mean, we saw that and 436 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,240 we see that with PFOS too, where like the more we learn about all 437 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,760 the different PFOS chemicals, we are already seeing them be 438 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,760 treated differently in regulations and also in the CCL. 439 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:02,040 So, yeah, I mean, there we might be getting more and more in the 440 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,200 weeds as we go and I think that might just be a sign of having 441 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,880 more information. But yeah. 442 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,520 Hello ET nation, I want to. Thank you for. 443 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,560 Listening to the podcast. If you're enjoying the 444 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,440 interviews we bring you, consider supporting the program. 445 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,000 By visiting my website. At. 446 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Seangrady.com. And buy me a cup of coffee. 447 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,920 Proceeds will go towards helping me continue producing timely 448 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,560 content and offset production costs. 449 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,800 I'd also like to take a moment and recognize a few of our 450 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,640 sponsors of the show who have been amazing partners. 451 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,360 And our ET nation legends. If you're looking for a drilling 452 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,240 an environmental contracting firm to help you delineate the 453 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,720 extent of contamination at your site, then look no further than 454 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,800 Cascade Environmental. Cascade has over 37 offices 455 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,960 across the country and offers a huge range of environmental. 456 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,640 And geotechnical drilling site. 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All in one software platform, 478 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,560 transforming how environmental professionals manage waste, 479 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,040 Connecting generators, service providers, and disposal 480 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,400 facilities in a way that is simple, connected and 481 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,560 transparent. Their platform helps streamline 482 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040 everything from waste profiling and routing to inventory 483 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,600 management and billing, giving you the tools you need to 484 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,080 operate more efficiently and reduce cost. 485 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,400 Whether you're a generator looking for better options or a 486 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,080 service provider seeking greater efficiency, Wastelink has you 487 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,320 covered. If you're ready to take control 488 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,320 of your waste management processes and optimize your 489 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,000 business, visit wastelink.com to. 490 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,640 Schedule a demo today. So how does these types of EPA 491 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,200 announcements, and there's been a flurry of these announcements 492 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,480 in the past, this past year so far, I mean, starting from 493 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,760 January to now, there's been a number of announcements. 494 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,440 I was an outlet like waste dive, respond and cover, figure out 495 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,320 what's, I mean there, there's a lot going on. 496 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,800 It seems like happening. And you're right there in DC 497 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,080 too, right? So you're, you're an epicenter. 498 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,520 You can go to the meetings if you need to, right? 499 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,040 Talk a little bit about that process for you guys and what 500 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:23,520 you're focused on. I think with the DPA, obviously, 501 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,920 you know, they're the top in the federal level, right? 502 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,440 So I think anytime, you know, we get so many announcements from 503 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,360 VPA and I'm reading through them, talking to people and you 504 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,920 know, my first question is always, hey, does this apply to 505 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,040 the waste industry in some way? Or if it doesn't directly apply, 506 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,440 how might it apply to their partners or some other 507 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,520 regulations that might end up kind of building into the 508 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,920 ecosystem of the waste industry because the waste industry is 509 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,760 obviously highly regulated. And at the same time, it's like 510 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,240 from day to like from day-to-day. 511 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,600 If you're a landfill operator, like you have a lot going on 512 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,160 besides like just checking to see what the EPA is doing. 513 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,040 And in fact, like you might actually be more concerned with 514 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,560 what's happening on a state or federal level. 515 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,680 So that's something that that I try to track too. 516 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,400 And yeah, so there's there's a lot. 517 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,480 Yes, there's a lot going on. I think right now, obviously 518 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,400 drinking water standards are or top of mind because of this 519 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,840 conversation. But you know, there's also air 520 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,240 emission standards that Mike, my colleague Jacob Wallace covers 521 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,760 and he's really a good resource for any type of EPA decision on 522 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,480 air emissions, which we're also seeing at the state level are 523 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,600 going to be certain states have, you know, tighter air emissions 524 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,880 as well. So we got the air, we got the 525 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,400 water, anything that's coming out of the leachate, anything 526 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,440 that's coming out of the top of the pile. 527 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,600 And I mean, I'm focusing on landfills for the sake of this, 528 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,000 not a part of the conversation. But, you know, we also cover 529 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,120 recycling facilities and organics facilities. 530 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,960 So incinerators. Right, Yeah, right. 531 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:03,680 The the The Dow just released their new waste guidance, 532 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,000 lifting the ban of Vince P Foss incineration, which was a big 533 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,280 deal in the. Industry. 534 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,680 I don't know if you've covered that topic yet, but the company 535 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,680 I work for is really interested in that, so supply some 536 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,000 information to you on that. And oh, by the way, something 537 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,600 you guys. Probably are going to cover, I 538 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,000 don't know, but I'm interested in this too is. 539 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,120 New Mexico is the first. State to regulate P Foss as a 540 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:28,960 hazardous. Waste. 541 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,800 Did you heard that? I yes, actually, when you see 542 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,640 our newsletter today, we don't have a story about it 543 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,240 specifically yet, but we always include stories from other 544 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,120 publications. So that's in there today. 545 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,480 And that's something that I'll be following just to see how 546 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,240 that's going to go. Because this, yeah, this goes 547 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,880 back to our conversation about, you know, the states are often 548 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,680 the first to release with the tone, you know, and a triple F 549 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,600 is, you know, you know, something that the DoD has 550 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,720 really been trying to get their arms around. 551 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,920 And not just the DoD, but, you know, also like local agencies 552 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:01,600 too. So. 553 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,360 And yeah. And then also like that 554 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,720 department also recently released a document sort of 555 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,920 similar to the EPA's destruction and disposal guidelines. 556 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,640 This is specifically for PFOS. But. 557 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,800 And they were saying, hey, like here's some of the the ways that 558 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,720 we see as being the most feasible to get rid of this 559 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,960 material. Maybe I'll get rid of it, but to 560 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:27,760 manage or dispose of destruct. So I talk about P Foss a lot. 561 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,600 A, because it's a big part of my group, and B, because P Foss is 562 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,800 one of those types of classes of chemicals where it's a pathway 563 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,280 that we see the regulation occurring on the state and 564 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,560 federal level. And there's not always going to 565 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,320 be an apples to apples comparison with other types of 566 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,760 materials. But it is, it's one of those 567 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,840 examples where you can say like there's president to see how 568 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,640 agencies have looked at P Foss, manage P Foss and a lot of the 569 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,240 legal ramifications for how these things are managed that we 570 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,680 might be able, we might end up seeing for something like 571 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,040 microplastics or something for example, down the line. 572 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,200 We just don't know. But it's 1/2. 573 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,920 Well, I've got a good topic to follow up with you on within the 574 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,400 incineration set space with P5. So I'll follow up with you on 575 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,400 that separately after the after this interview because that's 576 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,480 good content that I think we can collaborate on. 577 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,080 So, you know, I think as, as you know, any advice to stakeholders 578 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,800 that are, you know, looking at this new CCL 6 list, you know, 579 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,120 what to possibly expect, what they should do, any 580 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,680 recommendations there for the listeners who are piqued, you 581 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,640 know, their interest is piqued about this conversation. 582 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,360 I so I'm not in the business of giving advice since I'm I'm not 583 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,800 actually your industry cover your industries, but submitting 584 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,120 your comments to EPA because this comment period is so short. 585 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,520 They do. I actually look at them 586 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,440 sometimes it's not clear like where those comments end up 587 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,880 going, but I'm talking to EPA officials. 588 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,240 They do read them and it it's a it's a way for if this is 589 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,560 something that you're reading through the draft CCL and you're 590 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,320 like, that doesn't sound right or I've questions. 591 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,200 That's kind of one Ave. that you know, the agency is definitely 592 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:17,200 wanting you to take. I think also just, I, I'll, this 593 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,560 is maybe like a question that I turned back on you because I am 594 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,560 curious to see how industries are, are talking about this and 595 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,120 thinking about this. I know sometimes, you know, 596 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,920 depending on the size of the company, you might have somebody 597 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,920 on staff who is well versed in these things, especially because 598 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,720 CC, the CCL is a, a list that has been around for a long time 599 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,360 and it gets updated periodically. 600 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,840 So even though we're seeing some firsts on it, like 601 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,680 pharmaceuticals and microplastics are our first, the 602 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,640 CCL itself is not new. So I think that there's 603 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,360 definitely people in the industry who know quite a lot 604 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,400 about how these things work. And and my other advice is, you 605 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,480 know, if you have if you feel strongly about it and you want 606 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,240 to talk to a reporter, shameless plug to reach out to me in ways 607 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,840 I've so. That's right. 608 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:04,960 I like that. That's good. 609 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,080 That's good stuff. I mean, you know, I think most 610 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,080 companies will probably have a government relations department 611 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,480 who are tracking these types of things, right? 612 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,680 Then they're going to work with their local, you know, divisions 613 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,680 who are, you know, responsible for either the management or the 614 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,840 processing of these types of chemicals and, and to make a 615 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,960 determination from business side what is the impact. 616 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,360 And that's let me, that's what I would be doing or the company I 617 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,880 work for does. So that's what we do. 618 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,720 But you know, that's. That's the benefit of. 619 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,680 Working for a good sized firm that can focus on those things 620 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,320 and, and, you know, to have a strategic response or a plan to 621 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,920 address them as they become, I guess real, you know, they 622 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,520 become regulated. And so I think the 623 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,520 infrastructure that's needed to support these types of 624 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,440 substances for, you know, monitoring, we're still not 625 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:55,960 there yet. We still need to put a little 626 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,920 more effort into that side of the equation to make this more 627 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:02,240 effective. So I could see some of these 628 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,360 chemicals that may be of concern now that are listed just don't 629 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,760 quite make the final list until the infrastructure and the and 630 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,000 the capabilities of testing itself become I'm more 631 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,760 available. It's going to take it maybe a 632 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,080 little more time. So we'll see what happens. 633 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,920 But I think this is something to watch. 634 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,840 It's definitely a good topic to bring up and and kind of, you 635 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,760 know, have conversations with industry on and see where the 636 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,360 EPA is going with these things. So. 637 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,800 Yeah, yeah. And actually I have a question 638 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,480 for you if you don't mind. I am curious if you know if 639 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,600 there are any entities that are even like screening for 640 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,640 monitoring for microplastics right now like in from your 641 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,600 industry side, Like how big of a deal is that? 642 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,760 Yeah. I I'm not, to be honest with 643 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,960 you, I'm not sure. Obviously, you know, it would be 644 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,040 more in the the drinking water side of the of the House of most 645 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,560 industries that are wanting to put together technologies for 646 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,720 treating. And so that is a good question. 647 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,200 And it's something that we certainly I'm going to be 648 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,440 looking at and having conversations with others in the 649 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,160 industry to figure out what they're doing. 650 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,000 But yeah, let's stay in touch to kind of, you know, compare 651 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,120 notes. Yes, I would love that. 652 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,080 That's good. Well, Megan, thanks for coming 653 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,360 on the show today. I really appreciate your time 654 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,719 and all the great work you're doing at Waste Dive. 655 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,199 I've been a subscriber of the the magazine and your articles 656 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,239 for quite a while now and great content that comes out. 657 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,080 Really appreciate that and I'm sure anybody that wants to reach 658 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,520 out to you will have. Megan's contact information. 659 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,960 That you can, you know, get from the website, my website and 660 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,639 Megan anything, anything else you'd like to add to the for the 661 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,159 the listeners? Yeah. 662 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,600 Thanks for having me. And yeah, this is an ongoing 663 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,600 conversation. We're kind of at the beginning 664 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,880 stages of this. So I'm very curious to see where 665 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,560 this is going to go and love to keep talking about it. 666 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,120 All right. We'll keep up the good 667 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,440 reporting. I really appreciate it. 668 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,480 Yeah. Thank you. 669 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,800 Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening and 670 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,120 watching the show. If you enjoyed the show then 671 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,800 please share it with your friends and Co workers on social 672 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,960 media and tell somebody in person. 673 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,320 Thanks for being with us, ET Nation.