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The advantage to the plug in 
hybrid is that you get the best 

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of both worlds. 
You don't have to build all 

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those charging stations 
necessarily, just charge it at 

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home. 
When your charge runs out, you 

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run off gasoline, but the 
advantage to it is you're 

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addressing the air pollution 
problem from combustion while 

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you're driving around town on 
your battery. 

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Welcome to the Environmental 
Transformation Podcast, where we

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bring you interviews with 
industry leaders, climate 

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champions, sustainability 
practitioners, EHS and hazmat 

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professionals making an impact 
in their businesses today. 

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Each leader solving complex 
challenges and delivering 

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solutions within their areas of 
expertise. 

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I'm your host, Sean Grady, and 
thanks for joining us today. 

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Before we jump in, make sure to 
follow us on your devices and 

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visit my website at 
www.seankgrady.com and sign up 

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for our newsletter and e-mail 
announcements. 

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Now let's get started. 
Welcome to the Environmental 

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Transformation Podcast. 
I'm your host, Sean Grady, and 

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today's guest is John Beeth. 
He is a Life Cycle Assessment 

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certified professional and a 
registered professional engineer

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in Texas. 
He's also has more than 20 years

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of experience in the 
sustainability industry as a 

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consultant. 
He currently serves as CEO of a 

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sustainability environmental 
consulting company. 

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He's got a bachelor's degree in 
Chemical Engineering from 

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Georgia Tech and has authored 3 
short books on the various 

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aspects of sustainability he 
currently serves. 

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As a member. 
Of the board of directors of the

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American Center for Life Cycle 
Assessment. 

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So, John, welcome to the show. 
Thank you. 

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Really excited to be here and 
good, good set of topics that 

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you had picked out for us here, 
I think. 

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Yeah, No, we're really happy to 
have you on and and you know, we

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connected through I think one of
your marketing teams were 

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looking to maybe get you on the 
show and and we're always 

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looking for good guests. 
And so for those listeners out 

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there that you've got an 
interesting topic you'd like to 

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bring to the show, always 
interested to maybe interview 

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those, those potential 
candidates and bring them on 

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and, and educate our listeners. 
So John, before we get in, could

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you give us a little background 
on how you get started in life 

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cycle assessments and or 
analysis and and also the 

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sustainability business that 
you're running today? 

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Yeah, sure. 
It's been quite a journey for 

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me. 
I tell people that I'm 

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recovering process engineer. 
I got tired of designing things 

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that were not destined to be 
built quickly, and that's what 

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junior engineers and refinery 
do. 

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I found out, and they never told
me that when I moved into the 

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profession to begin with. 
So I found a way to escape the 

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environmental department and 
they convinced me that that 

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wasn't where they sent old 
soldiers to die, that in fact 

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you actually could have a role 
in the world. 

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And it happened that that was 
back in the 80s and things were 

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beginning to take shape in the 
environmental sector in in a 

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bold new way. 
And I was able to do a lot of 

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first of its kind sort of 
activities. 

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And Fast forward, I was the guy 
who turned out the lights of the

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refinery and sort of moved on 
into the consulting world and 

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joined a big box consulting 
company, was there for quite a 

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while. 
And while I was there, I had a 

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client one day that called me 
and asked if we could do a life 

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cycle assessment for them. 
And like most eager consultants,

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I accept the job. 
And then right after the call I 

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called my colleagues in the UK 
and said what the heck is a life

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cycle assessment and how do I do
1 And that was, you know, that 

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was in like 2006. 
So, you know, that was 20 years 

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ago and a lots happened since 
then. 

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I left that company at some 
point and founded my own company

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now just almost exactly 11 years
ago. 

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And that company was just me at 
the time. 

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And now it's a lot more than 
that. 

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I wanted to focus on 
sustainability and life cycle 

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assessment and carbon footprints
and that sort of thing. 

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And so that's what this company 
has enabled me to do. 

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So that's. 
Great. 

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That's good. 
I mean, yeah. 

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So. 
So the punishment ended up being

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kind of like your passion. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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It's true. 
And maybe just a few more words 

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on, you know, what happened with
that experience, just to sort of

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round that out. 
So they told me that they wanted

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to prove that their solar panels
that they were making were 

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green. 
And I said to myself, well, of 

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course they're green. 
And they said no, no, an 

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investor told them the only way 
to do that was to do a life 

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cycle assessment. 
So I rounded up a team, we went 

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to the plant, we cataloged the 
raw materials, the utilities, 

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the emissions, the waste, the Co
products, the yields, all that 

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stuff. 
And that's the kind of data you 

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need to assess a product across 
its life cycle, from the removal

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of raw materials from the earth 
all the way through 

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transportation, manufacturing, 
distribution, installation, use,

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maintenance, all that stuff. 
And people do carbon footprints 

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as a streamlined version of that
for lots of reasons. 

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But what's driving that business
now is customer requests, 

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investor demands in an effort to
make claims to try to increase 

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market share. 
So that's how the game has 

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evolved over time, and that's 
the kind of exposure we get 

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through our client work. 
Well, so, so let's break down 

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for the, the novice here, 
because there's a lot of 

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listeners who follow the podcast
and join along who, you know, 

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they, they may be practitioners 
in this space, but there's a lot

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who aren't, They're just kind of
casual interested parties. 

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They, they, they work in the 
environmental industry, but they

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maybe not in be involved in 
sustainability type activities 

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where life cycle analysis is, is
required. 

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So let's break this down. 
What's the process? 

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How does this concept work, you 
know, in, in real practice? 

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And and let's let's break this 
down so we can get them prepared

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for the rest of the 
conversation. 

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All right. 
Well, you know, it is, it is a 

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little bit complicated, I'll 
admit. 

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But at the basis what you're 
really trying to do is take a 

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flow rate of material and assign
it to an emission factor and 

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then end up with a result. 
So I call that A * B = C, and 

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it's no different than in 
traditional environmental world 

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how you would do an emissions 
inventory. 

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What's different about this 
though is that if you're doing a

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carbon footprint, at least what 
you're chasing really is those 

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instances where whatever you're 
doing creates a CO2, methane or 

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N2O emission to the atmosphere. 
And most often that's 

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combustion, unless you have a 
pipeline of methane and then 

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methane is going to leak out of 
the pipeline directly. 

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You know, you don't need 
combustion for that. 

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For most other things it you 
know, it's about combustion. 

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And so if you're a manufacturing
plant, it's pretty 

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straightforward. 
You have fired process heaters. 

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You can understand what that is.
But when you look across the 

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life cycle now, it's not just 
what you're doing inside your 

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plant. 
Instead, I'm including the raw 

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materials that are coming to you
and how they were made. 

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And so there's energy. 
Say you've got a bulldozer and 

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it's going to mine that material
out of the ground. 

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Well, there goes some CO2 from 
that. 

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And the next thing I'm going to 
do is I'm going to grind it up 

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maybe, OK, there's some 
electrical energy that goes into

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that at the power plant. 
There's CO2 for that. 

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Now I'm going to put it in the 
truck and I'm going to haul it. 

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And so guess what the the truck 
is burning some sort of fuel or 

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it's electric, one or the other.
In either case, it's energy. 

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It ties back probably to 
combustion at some point. 

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And so again, CO2, so we're an 
inventory that adds up all those

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steps down the line, even 
through the end of the 

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manufacturing to distribution. 
Again, we got some trucks. 

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Maybe it goes into the use 
phase. 

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And if it's something simple 
like a plastic bottle, you might

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say, well, this doesn't really 
have a use phase, does it? 

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Well, in reality it does because
guess what? 

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A lot of people like their 
drinking water and they like it 

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cold. 
So what do they do? 

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They put it in the refrigerator.
Well, now that's part of the 

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life cycle for your product as 
well. 

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Yeah. 
You know, when you think about 

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that, Oh my gosh. 
I mean, all the actual inputs 

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that you need to consider to 
assess a full, I guess, complete

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picture of the life cycle 
analysis, that could be pretty 

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daunting just trying to 
understand all the inputs. 

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And then how do you derive, you 
know, emission factors for all 

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that work? 
Well, if you had to go get a CO2

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meter and meter every single one
of those things I just 

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described, you'd bankrupt 
yourself. 

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So the way it works is that 
people have already been there, 

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done that. 
And so they're creating a 

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library of information you can 
draw from. 

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And so there are environmental 
databases that store that kind 

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of experience based data that 
you can then draw on. 

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Probably the largest one of 
those is is called Eco Invent 

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and they have thousands of 
factors in there for things you 

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can't even imagine that you 
might need a factor for. 

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And and that's not by any means 
the only place where you go and 

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that's behind the paywall. 
So not everybody gets to use 

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that. 
But the idea is you're, you're 

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adding to some experience and 
you have what's called primary 

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data because in some cases, you 
know how much what, what's the 

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electric bill for your plant to 
make these plastic bottles? 

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Well, OK, I know what my 
electric bill is. 

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I know how many of these I made.
So now I can give you what's 

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called, you know, a really 
accurate primary database 

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estimate of what my emissions 
for this was. 

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But if I'm a company and I don't
make the polyethylene beads that

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are used to blow mold the 
plastic, then I have to trust 

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some secondary data probably for
that. 

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And I might go to this database,
I might go to the company and 

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say, have you got a carbon 
footprint? 

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And by the way, if you want me 
to buy your product, you know, I

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really want you to share that. 
Otherwise, I'm going to find 

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somebody else who's willing to 
share that. 

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And you know, I'll buy their 
product. 

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Are you, are you when you're 
doing these assessments for 

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clients and you're, and you're 
going through this process, are 

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you finding that a lot of these 
suppliers of these raw materials

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are providing their carbon 
emission factors or input that 

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for the impact of the product 
they're selling? 

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So that way every metric ton or 
whatever they're gallon that you

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can use that as an input. 
It's a mixed bag and I think it 

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depends a lot on what industry 
sector you're in. 

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In the building product space, 
you find a lot of people are 

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embodying that into what's 
called an environmental product 

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00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,840
declaration or an EPD. 
Some of the building trades are 

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more and more are beginning to 
see a requirement for you to not

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only share the data, but share 
it in that form. 

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But in lots of other sectors, 
it's a lot more random in terms 

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of, well, if I'm selling a 
product to another business, you

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00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,000
know, they may make it 
conditional that you have to 

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provide some data to me or or 
I'm not going to buy your 

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product. 
As we move into consumer 

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products, it's even more squishy
there. 

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The reason people will do these 
kinds of studies is because they

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they maybe have an investor that
wants to get data about that, or

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00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:06,680
maybe they want to make a market
claim. 

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00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,560
So if they're going to make a 
market claim, they're going to 

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00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:13,240
try to get as much primary data 
as they can, but they are going 

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00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,920
to find those firewalls that 
that you mentioned, you know, is

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00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,920
the supplier willing to share? 
Well, that's a changing 

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00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:22,760
environment. 
And what you're finding is 

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00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,080
people that are outside the US 
where the regulatory environment

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00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,720
environment is pushing faster. 
Yeah, more likely, like Europe 

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and Asia as well. 
You'll find that much more 

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00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,600
likely to share that information
because they've been conditioned

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00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:42,400
by companies that are in those 
locations that that's how things

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00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,080
are done. 
Right, right, right. 

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Well, that's, that's awesome. 
I mean, so when we look at, you 

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know, your journey here, the 
catalyst of you starting of this

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business, you've been in the 
environmental, you know, 

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business over 40 years as an 
engineer. 

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What was the specific gap where 
the problem you were trying to 

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solve in the industry that drove
you to write these books that 

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you you you wrote, you wrote 
three books. 

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And once you share a little bit 
about your books and talk about 

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that, and then, you know, what 
was the lack of understanding of

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the process or the prohibitive 
cost of the existing tool that 

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was like you were trying to fix?
Like what was? 

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Tell us a little bit about this.
Well, I, I won't try to pretend 

236
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that I have the universal 
solution to that problem, but I 

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took some steps down that 
highway. 

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And so, yeah, the, the thing 
that was in my mind was that 

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one, I piled up a lot of 
experience. 

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My company's piled up a lot of 
experience. 

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I, I felt like, you know, I'm 
moving on in my career, it's 

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time for me to start sharing 
some of that stuff. 

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So that was definitely a 
motivator. 

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But more importantly, a lot of 
the information that's out there

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is pretty hard to digest. 
You know, it's written for R&D 

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engineers and nerdy science 
types. 

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And if you want a nerd out and 
go to those detailed elements, 

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that's great. 
But for people who aren't 

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working in that space every day,
they need a bit of a translator.

250
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,080
And so that's the rule A. 
Little bit so the average guy 

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who knows math can do some 
stuff. 

252
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Exactly. 
And so there were three books 

253
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that ended up coming. 
And Full disclosure, I did them 

254
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,360
in part because that's how I 
continue to remain certified as 

255
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,960
a certified professional is you 
have to publish or parish to a 

256
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,000
certain extent. 
And so that was part of my 

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00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,560
pathway to, to holding on to my 
credentials. 

258
00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:28,160
But I also wanted to do the 
things that I told you. 

259
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So it's it's a balancing act. 
Anyway, three books. 

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00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,960
One was a specific need for a 
friend that we had who was an 

261
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organic farmer. 
And I felt like all the things 

262
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that have been written about how
to footprint a farm were really 

263
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:44,560
hard to, to get your arms 
around. 

264
00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,000
And so written so that a farmer 
could actually do their own 

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footprint and need a master's 
in, you know, environmental 

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00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,520
engineering to be able to walk 
through that. 

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So it's very simplistic. 
It's very, pardon the pun, down 

268
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,640
to earth, but you know, that's 
the sort of thing that I felt 

269
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,200
like was really neat. 
So let me. 

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00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:05,920
Let me generate a direct real 
quick. 

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00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,000
Do you get any interest from, 
say, universities, agricultural 

272
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,680
universities that come and talk 
about this in a class or course 

273
00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:13,880
or anything? 
Probably because not many of 

274
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,560
them go browsing around on our 
website and try to find that it,

275
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,760
it is something that I'd love to
be able to do. 

276
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,200
But frankly, no, that hasn't 
been an issue. 

277
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,000
We're kind of in our little 
silo, you know, we're, we're the

278
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,040
company that nobody knows 
anything about and that's one of

279
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,160
the reasons we're trying to 
change that is to get some of 

280
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,560
this information out there. 
So. 

281
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,200
Well, we'll help you do that, 
yeah. 

282
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,360
People will know who the 
translators are and and who they

283
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,480
might be able to rely on. 
So that leads me to the second 

284
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,520
effort. 
And these are numbered by the 

285
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,440
way, LCA one O 1, LCA one O 2 
and LCA one O 3. 

286
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,760
Kind of tongue in cheek, but. 
It's like going taking my 

287
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,160
college courses, you know? 
Yeah, exactly. 

288
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,000
And that's that's the intent 
except college, not College in 

289
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000
this case. 
SO1O2 is a little bit more of a 

290
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,320
heavy duty nature. 
And this was inspired because of

291
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,000
the fact that there's so many 
come people that are coming into

292
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:12,000
the electric vehicle space that 
have an agenda and they gather 

293
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,920
up some data and they try to to 
convince people that they're 

294
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,840
right and that here's why you 
should move in a certain 

295
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,200
direction. 
And I got really tired of that. 

296
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,520
And so we got hired by an oil 
company and by trade association

297
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,000
to really look objectively into 
that. 

298
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,480
And we did and we learned an 
awful lot about that. 

299
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,440
And so the book is a 
methodology. 

300
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,520
It's how do you analyze a 
situation in a very objective, 

301
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,920
scientific, comprehensive way 
and draw some good conclusions 

302
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,440
about the trade-offs that 
happened there. 

303
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,920
So that's what that book is 
about. 

304
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,680
The third one, LCA one O 3 was a
horse of completely different 

305
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,040
color. 
This was I'm tired of people 

306
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,960
coming to me and saying, you 
know, I can't do carbon 

307
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,880
footprints because I I can't 
afford the the price of a big 

308
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,040
database, but I really want to 
have something I can roll around

309
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,840
in and try some things. 
So one day the idea popped in my

310
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,960
head that there's a database 
that's free from the government,

311
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,760
that is environmental emission 
factors for all of the things 

312
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,280
that go into a car. 
And if you think about a car, 

313
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,640
it's plastic, there's metal, 
there's wire, there's glass, 

314
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,880
there's all this cool stuff. 
And all those factors are in 

315
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,320
that database. 
So I said, well, why don't I 

316
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,520
just extract those that 
information out there, put it in

317
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,760
a table, put a nice little front
end in it and create some 

318
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,280
examples where you actually 
footprint some comparisons and 

319
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,160
roll that into a book. 
And so that's what I did. 

320
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,480
And so not only is the book out 
there, but also you have the 

321
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,640
ability to download the the 
workbook itself and actually 

322
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,520
play around with it yourself. 
Well, so how many companies can,

323
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,680
you know, view the LCA as a 
black box and handle it by, you 

324
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,960
know, expensive specialist now? 
I mean it seems like there's a 

325
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,520
little big business in this 
space for that. 

326
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,280
How does your hands on approach 
solve the problem of 

327
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,280
accessibility for the average 
engineer or small business 

328
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,680
owner? 
Yeah, that's, that's a subject 

329
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,240
that's really near and dear to 
my heart. 

330
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,960
You really struck A chord when 
you got that. 

331
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,960
So the, the simple solution that
I just described to you, LCA one

332
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,000
O 3, the the little workbook I 
have only focuses on raw 

333
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,319
materials. 
It's a piece of that supply 

334
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,440
chain. 
But what we find is a lot of 

335
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,400
products that are made might 
find 90 or even more percent of 

336
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,920
the overall footprint might be 
in the raw materials. 

337
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,280
So if you want to do 
comparisons, that's a good place

338
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,160
to start. 
It is by no means a tool that's 

339
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,200
going to replace an LCA database
because it's only looking at the

340
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,720
front end of your problem. 
But it allows you to get in, 

341
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,840
roll around, understand the 
process. 

342
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,480
Now parallel from that, I, I am 
extremely concerned about 

343
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:52,080
working with black spot, black 
box LCA databases because I've 

344
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,600
been working with them 
throughout my career. 

345
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,840
And I don't like the, the way 
you can't really see the work. 

346
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,040
You can't really understand what
it's doing. 

347
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,720
And so for the last 10 years, 
we've been working to develop a 

348
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,880
parallel solution. 
Basically, it's an Excel 

349
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,760
workbook that does everything 
that the Open LCA model does 

350
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,600
with a couple of restrictions, 
OK, But it does those 

351
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,880
calculations in the same 
detailed way, not just for for 

352
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,160
carbon, but for other 
environmental impacts like 

353
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,160
sidification, ozone depletion, 
energy toxicology, all the 

354
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,600
things that are part of these 
environmental impact factor 

355
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,480
sets. 
So we did that because we really

356
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,040
wanted to be able to answer the 
question for our clients that 

357
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,880
say, OK, you got this answer 
from your database. 

358
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,000
How do you know it's right? 
How do you check that? 

359
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,960
And so we said, OK, well, you 
know, what do you do normally 

360
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,000
when someone says to check that,
well, you get a piece of paper 

361
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,800
and you write down some numbers 
and you look up the factors and 

362
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,360
you basically do manually, you 
know, a, a set of calculations 

363
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,760
for, you know, one of the 
elements, say a raw material to 

364
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,360
see if it looks like the box is 
doing its right way. 

365
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,240
Well, or you might use Excel to 
do that. 

366
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,360
And so that led to the leap of 
faith. 

367
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:11,120
Faith that was OK. 
Well, why don't we just do all 

368
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,120
those calculations and then 
we'll know for sure. 

369
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,560
We've checked everything. 
And then we said, well, if we're

370
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,040
going to go to the trouble to do
that, maybe there's a reason why

371
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,880
our clients may want to do that.
Because then it becomes a what 

372
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,840
if tool that's transparent. 
They can see all the activities,

373
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,200
they can QA it, and they're 
going to get a huge amount of 

374
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,200
benefit from it by people using 
it who aren't people that are in

375
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,440
the LCA database tool every day.
Because that takes to be 

376
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,760
effective with those things. 
Any kind of complicated 

377
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,240
software, any kind of modeling 
software, if you're not working 

378
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,000
with it regularly, you're going 
to struggle. 

379
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,640
But the nice thing with Excel is
you can look at it, you know, I 

380
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,400
don't care what you were working
on 30 minutes ago or for the 

381
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,080
last two months, you can look at
that Excel and kind of go, yeah,

382
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,120
I see what's going on here. 
OK, that's great. 

383
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,880
And by that transparency, it's 
also a really good QA tool on 

384
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,200
your data. 
So as you're looking at it and 

385
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,360
we have a tie to some graphs and
tables so that when you put in 

386
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,800
the results, you can see right 
in front of you what's 

387
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,080
happening. 
And if you see things that you 

388
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,960
aren't expecting, you can you 
can drill down into them and 

389
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,440
then obviously you can make 
changes to it and see how the 

390
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,000
results play out. 
So we're really excited about 

391
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,080
it. 
We're doing our second project 

392
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,880
now to use that tool and we 
have. 

393
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,760
Cross checked it against the 
open LCAA to see if we could get

394
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,800
exactly the same results and we 
did. 

395
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,680
So that's where we are. 
Hello ET Nation, I want to thank

396
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,400
you for listening to the podcast
if. 

397
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,240
You're enjoying the interviews. 
We bring you Consider supporting

398
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,280
the program by visiting my 
website at seankgrady.com and 

399
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,960
buy me a cup of coffee. 
Proceeds will go towards helping

400
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,360
me continue producing timely 
content and offset production 

401
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:55,280
costs. 
I'd also like to take a moment 

402
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,800
and recognize a few of our 
sponsors of the show who have 

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been amazing partners and our ET
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404
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,040
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To learn more, check out their 

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That's cascade-env.com. 

414
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428
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441
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schedule a demo today. 
Well, I mean, so why is this, 

442
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,600
why is the transparency of, you 
know, in formulas and the 

443
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,200
ability of the user to, you 
know, basically see the guts of 

444
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,800
this, this actual process and 
all the calculations that you 

445
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,800
put into the, you know, into the
formulas there inside the Excel.

446
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,320
Why is that so important and so 
vital for the credibility of the

447
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,440
sustainability claims and so? 
You know, it is, it is just 

448
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,040
that. 
And what's interesting is that 

449
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,760
when you do a life cycle 
assessment, if you're going to 

450
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,720
share the results and make a 
claim, you're supposed to have a

451
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,960
third party reviewed, which 
means theoretically someone's 

452
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,040
looking over your shoulder. 
Well, additionally, what has 

453
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,000
happened with that in large 
measure, and I have done third 

454
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,400
party review myself. 
So I speak from a little bit of 

455
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,240
experience, This centroid of how
those reviewers tend to approach

456
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,520
things is there's a list of 
things that ISO says have to be 

457
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,720
in your life cycle assessment, 
you know, has to have go and 

458
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,520
scope, has to have system 
foundry, has to have functioning

459
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,640
and all these things that are 
supposed to be in your report. 

460
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,960
And so it becomes a checklist. 
Got this, got this, got this, 

461
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,720
got this. 
OK, great. 

462
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,480
Therefore you have a great LCA 
report. 

463
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,840
I'm your reviewer. 
You met all the requirements and

464
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,360
ISO. 
Have a nice day, right. 

465
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,840
I got a fundamental problem with
that because you didn't say and 

466
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,520
by the way, I checked all the 
numbers to make sure that you 

467
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,920
really did the calculations in 
in a comprehensive and effective

468
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,760
way. 
And the problem is when you have

469
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,440
a model, the only way that you 
could really have a way to do 

470
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,520
that would be to literally take 
every step that the person who 

471
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,880
set up the model did. 
Well, who wants to pay for that 

472
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,600
twice? 
No one, right? 

473
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,680
So that's why having this 
transparent thing allows the 

474
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,120
auditor, the reviewer, to 
actually say, yeah, I actually 

475
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:57,160
checked the math. 
I can see what's going on. 

476
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,760
I know that it's doing the A * B
= C and it's got the right A's, 

477
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,960
it's using the right B's. 
And yeah, the C answer 

478
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,000
benchmarks. 
It looks effective. 

479
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,800
You know it it, you know it's 
the right answer, or within some

480
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,280
range of accuracy anyway. 
Sure. 

481
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,680
Sure. 
No, that's good. 

482
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,440
I mean, and I think you, like I 
said, it just elevates the, the,

483
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,760
the, the power of the tool and, 
and the credibility of the 

484
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,240
calculations and the outcome. 
So that's, that's excellent. 

485
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,040
If we talk about the, the, you 
know, selecting factors, you 

486
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,840
know, I think a lot of people 
are trying to always figure out 

487
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,400
where do I get this factors 
emission factor for a typical 

488
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,240
type of product or, you know, 
raw material. 

489
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,560
But that seems like a major 
hurdle for for beginners and 

490
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,720
knowing which emission factor to
use. 

491
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,720
So why do you anchor in your 
books the Argonne National Labs 

492
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,480
Greek model as as kind of like 
your main source of, you know, 

493
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,280
factors that you, you know, have
the readers translate to the 

494
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,880
most complex data sets? 
Well, it doesn't hurt that I've 

495
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,400
been working with the people at 
Oregon lab for ever since Greek 

496
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,400
was, you know, first developed 
frankly. 

497
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,400
And we've actually contributed 
to some of that content. 

498
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:15,520
We created some tools that are 
are that slave off of the 

499
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,280
information that's in Greek that
they have made part of their 

500
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,760
package actually. 
So we're extremely familiar with

501
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,360
that. 
But that being said, you know, 

502
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,200
it's run by the government. 
It it's based on a lot of 

503
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,160
publicly available government 
data like from EIA and other 

504
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,840
government agencies. 
And it gets updated every year. 

505
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,960
And it also gets peer reviewed 
fairly well. 

506
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,600
And so I have a lot of 
confidence in what's in there. 

507
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,720
Now the bad news is if this is 
not a material that goes in your

508
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,240
car, then you're not going to 
find it in there. 

509
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,200
So you're going to have to go 
somewhere else to find those 

510
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,280
factors. 
And so a lot of what many people

511
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,000
do is they just in today's world
of AI, you just go to your 

512
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:01,200
computer and you say carbon 
footprint for shampoo and you're

513
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,400
going to get some studies for 
that and trust but verify. 

514
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,360
It's amazing now how AI is going
to be used to if for some of the

515
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,000
work that we're doing in the 
environmental space. 

516
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,360
And yeah, you just prompted with
a question. 

517
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,640
It's going to give you kind of 
like, oh, here's all the raw 

518
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,960
materials that go into, you 
know, shampoo for a carpet and 

519
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,880
bam, you. 
Know yeah, and you'll get some 

520
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,080
answers too but the most 
important thing is it's going to

521
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,360
point you to the sources. 
And so then then we do as 

522
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:31,920
scientists is we're going to 
open up that source by the way, 

523
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,000
if it's actually there every now
and then you will find that it 

524
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,920
tells you that a source exists 
and it doesn't actually we have 

525
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,000
had that experience but if you 
open it up you're looking for 

526
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,880
things like was it peer 
reviewed? 

527
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,040
How did they do their what sort 
of assumptions do they make What

528
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,960
sort of credentials even do the 
people have that that worked on 

529
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,840
that those are all things that 
you can do and then if you're 

530
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,520
like most people you want to try
to benchmark that as well. 

531
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,000
So I don't want just one study. 
I really want 2 studies that I 

532
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,640
can compare against each other. 
Now I'm feeling really good 

533
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,680
about it. 
And the third thing I might do 

534
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,000
as a practitioner, you know I, I
have these in eco event factors.

535
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,800
I have access to them all you 
know they're behind the paywall.

536
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,680
I can use those to benchmark the
study so that way the the client

537
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,800
doesn't have to pay for the eco 
invent factor because here it is

538
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,840
it's publicly available in this 
study you know and yeah, quietly

539
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,520
I told the client by the way. 
I checked it against Eco Invent 

540
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,920
and I probably am not going to 
be able to say that in the 

541
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,120
report, but that gives the a 
little bit more confidence, 

542
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,200
yeah. 
Right, right. 

543
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,880
Absolutely. 
Well, you know, there's been a 

544
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,800
lot of going on in in the 
environmental world these days. 

545
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,280
EPA has, interestingly enough, 
pulled back some new, you know, 

546
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,720
rules. 
The endangerment clause of air 

547
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,120
emission was recently rescinded,
You know, so if we look at, 

548
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,160
let's say your LCAA one O yeah, 
one O 2, which is around the 

549
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,320
electric vehicles, you know, in 
your book in the in the electric

550
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,000
vehicles, you challenge 
one-size-fits-all narrative in 

551
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,920
in electrification. 
So what are the most critical, 

552
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,080
often overlooked variables such 
as grid intensity, battery 

553
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,480
weight, you know, and what you 
know, can that completely be 

554
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,640
flipped with the results of you 
know, of the EV versus the the 

555
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,200
internal combustion engine 
comparison now or you know that 

556
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,240
we're these new rules are going 
to be affecting. 

557
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,640
Well, first of all, the 
endangerment finding situation 

558
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,840
really doesn't impact much of 
anything. 

559
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,640
That said, in the book that we 
wrote, the fact that some people

560
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,320
in the government have decided 
that greenhouse gases don't 

561
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,880
threaten, you know, human health
and therefore they're they're 

562
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,400
not endangering us. 
You know, it's a completely 

563
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,640
separate issue. 
If if you're still interested in

564
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,040
making an impact on carbon, then
you still want to study the 

565
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,960
electric vehicle. 
You still want to figure out, 

566
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,080
you know, where it makes sense 
and where it doesn't. 

567
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,320
And not just with electric 
vehicles, but anything that is 

568
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,800
powered by a fuel source that's 
not fossil fuel. 

569
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,920
You know, these are the kinds of
things that you may want to 

570
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,800
think about. 
But for the for the EV in 

571
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,080
particular, one of the things 
that struck me right on the head

572
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,080
when I first started looking at 
it is the temperature impacts. 

573
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,800
And people have always talked 
about them, you know, in terms 

574
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,280
of that being, you know, a 
strong part of the process. 

575
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,480
And it absolutely is, however, 
in ways that you might not think

576
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,040
about directly. 
So people think about how the 

577
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,200
battery performs when it's hot 
outside. 

578
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,800
OK, that's great. 
But that's not really the the 

579
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,160
big effect that's that, you 
know, an internal combustion 

580
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,240
engine is heating up your cab 
when it's hot out or when it's 

581
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,560
cold inside, you want it to be 
hot inside. 

582
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,080
So you get that benefit of the 
internal combustion engine with 

583
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,200
an EV. 
Guess what, No combustion. 

584
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,640
So now that's it becomes a tax 
on your battery. 

585
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,600
Part of your power that you're 
counting on has to go into 

586
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,040
heating the vehicle. 
And that is a carbon footprint 

587
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,400
balancing act issue. 
But the one that I found even 

588
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,520
more intriguing than that was 
how you charge your car. 

589
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,520
So that battery in order to 
protect itself, has temperature 

590
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,480
monitoring with it that says, 
hey, you're only allowed to 

591
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,440
charge me if the temperature is 
within a certain range. 

592
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,400
And if it's too cold, I'm going 
to activate a heating element 

593
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,840
and I'm going to heat up the 
area around the battery so you 

594
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,560
don't damage your battery. 
On the other side of the coin, 

595
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,240
if it's too hot out there in in 
where your your battery lives, 

596
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,280
I'm going to engage a fan and 
I'm going to try to cool down 

597
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,800
that battery. 
And I'm not going to let you 

598
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,840
charge it until I've cooled down
the cargo space enough to where 

599
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:44,160
the battery is the right 
temperature. 

600
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,960
Well, you're not going to find 
those results on your EPA 

601
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,240
sticker for your EV. 
They're not part of what happens

602
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,160
because they don't happen as you
operate the vehicle. 

603
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,360
They're not part of your 
efficiency, but actually they 

604
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,960
are if you take a life cycle 
approach to this. 

605
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,440
So those are really important 
things. 

606
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,720
Where you charge your vehicle is
really important. 

607
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,520
Say you live in Chicago and your
junks in your garage instead of 

608
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,760
your car. 
No one would ever let that 

609
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,720
happen, right? 
But if that's your case, then 

610
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,000
you're going to pay a huge tax 
for heating out this car 

611
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,240
outside, whereas instead, if you
charge it in your car or in your

612
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,200
garage, get rid of the junk. 
That would be a great place for 

613
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,880
you to be. 
And furthermore, if you really 

614
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,720
want to up your game even a 
little bit further, then you 

615
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,880
might insulate your garage also 
so that now you're not have to 

616
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,280
having to take that head start 
either when it's hot or cold. 

617
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,480
Insulation will help you both 
ways with respect to that. 

618
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,080
So, but there are, there are 
things that matter a lot that 

619
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,320
were part of the study that we 
did and they're part of the 

620
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,480
book. 
The key thing obviously is the 

621
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,480
grid and what's going on in the 
state where you are operating. 

622
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,960
It's, it's no secret that as you
look at the say the Eastern 

623
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,720
Seaboard state, so you can see, 
you know that West Virginia, 

624
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,800
Kentucky, they're a coal 
weighted grid. 

625
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,680
And so the, the electric 
vehicles aren't going to do as 

626
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,440
well there in terms of carbon 
reduction, right. 

627
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,760
And surprisingly, if you look at
EV sales, one of the biggest 

628
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,360
places where EVs are selling 
right now is in California. 

629
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,960
And unfortunately in California,
the grid is really pretty good. 

630
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,360
So the net benefit of putting 
EVs, if you could pick wherever 

631
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,040
you want them, you wouldn't put 
them in California. 

632
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,960
You would put them, you know, 
every single vehicle you could 

633
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,160
replace in West Virginia, you'd 
try to. 

634
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,080
The problem is we have customers
and customers have preferences 

635
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,240
and they have geographic 
locations. 

636
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,000
So are you going to get demand 
to line up with what is the best

637
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,920
for the environment overall? 
Probably not. 

638
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,520
But at least you can understand 
what those forces mean and how 

639
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,880
to put them in perspective. 
And that's what the book tried 

640
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,760
to do. 
Yeah, cuz when you think about 

641
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,760
the grid, I mean not like you 
just mentioned, not all 

642
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:04,000
utilities are the same when it 
comes to delivering the power 

643
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720
and, and their source of power 
and, and the emissions that are 

644
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,840
involved with generating that 
power for the utility. 

645
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:15,639
And I, you know, having a grasp 
of that and where certain 

646
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:19,239
factors are going to play into 
the equation versus, you know, 

647
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,480
in a location that may be a 
hydropowered company or, or, you

648
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,719
know, somewhere like that. 
That's that's like you got to 

649
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,560
really know your stuff. 
And actually just as a side 

650
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,239
note, I have to have to react to
your the use of hydropower there

651
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,920
because hydropower is uniquely 
different from wind and solar. 

652
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,239
They all have a burden that 
caused that results from, you 

653
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,360
know, the equipment part of it. 
And I haven't mentioned capital 

654
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,560
equipment, but that's also part 
of the footprint. 

655
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,480
Theoretically, it's typically a 
minor player, but with those 

656
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,199
people who are using 
hydroelectric power, one of the 

657
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,880
things that's been often 
overlooked is the impacts from 

658
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,600
the reservoir. 
So when you create a hydropower 

659
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,320
plant, typically there's a 
reservoir that's associated with

660
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,640
it. 
When you bring that reservoir 

661
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,080
into being, what are you doing? 
Well, you're flooding land. 

662
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,880
And as you do, the biological 
growth that was in that area 

663
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,840
that you flooded is going to off
gas for years and years and 

664
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,400
years. 
And they are now starting to 

665
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,600
measure exactly what that is and
therefore define the 

666
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,120
hydroelectric power plant 
footprint as not 0. 

667
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,480
It's it's certainly not like 
burning fossil fuels, but it's 

668
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,640
not 0. 
And so that's part of how the 

669
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,400
life cycle assessment science 
evolves over time as we learn 

670
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,160
things and we get a broader 
perspective, even more than we 

671
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,960
had before, about what really 
matters and what doesn't and how

672
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:42,440
much. 
Well. 

673
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,040
OK, so let's, let's, let's take 
this other kind of interesting 

674
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,560
question because I think a lot 
of people are like, hey, it 

675
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:55,080
takes as much carbon and impacts
to build an EV car as it does 

676
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,560
like a gas combustion, internal 
combustion car. 

677
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,960
Or maybe it takes more, I don't 
know. 

678
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,600
But maybe through your 
experience, could you kind of 

679
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,240
shed some light on the pros and 
cons of this just cuz maybe the 

680
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,360
listener is just saying, I want 
to do what's best to buy the 

681
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:18,080
right car related to its carbon 
emission impact, say over its 

682
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,160
lifespan that I'm going to have 
the car versus me buying a 

683
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:25,880
internal combustion car and just
buying fuel to power it, you 

684
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,960
know, over time. 
And then the cost benefit 

685
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,200
analysis, I mean, what what's 
your take on that? 

686
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,000
Because I'm sure you're kind of 
looking at that as well. 

687
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,480
Well, it, it definitely is 
complicated. 

688
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,440
First of all, a lot of people 
will raise their hand and say, 

689
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,240
oh, it's the battery. 
You know, that's the reason why 

690
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:42,680
these EVs, their, their 
footprint really isn't that 

691
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,480
great. 
And if you assess the battery, 

692
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,120
you'll figure out that, you 
know, whatever fuel savings 

693
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,040
there is gets weighed out by how
carbon intensive it is to make 

694
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,400
the battery. 
Well, I, I think that's been, 

695
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,040
that's been gas lit and proven 
not to be the key aspect. 

696
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,760
It, it is an important aspect, 
but in terms of percentage, the 

697
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,080
use phase and the use of the 
power plant or internal 

698
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,800
combustion is going to wet far 
outweigh that element of it. 

699
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,720
And we studied this in a very 
detailed way for a bus 

700
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,920
manufacturer. 
We built a, a carbon comparison 

701
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:22,600
tool for them, which basically 
compares diesel buses to CNG to 

702
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,040
hybrid to electric buses. 
And we did this because their 

703
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,440
customers really want to know if
I'm if I'm buying a fleet of 

704
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,800
buses and I had diesel buses 
before and now I have CNG or now

705
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,400
I have electric, what exact 
footprint am I going to 

706
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,400
difference am I going to make? 
Because say I'm a city or a 

707
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,840
university, they actually have 
carbon reduction plans and they 

708
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,680
have to literally fact factor 
this kind of information into 

709
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,200
it. 
So we worked with the 

710
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:52,400
manufacturer of the space of the
year to collect a bunch of data 

711
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,920
and try to come to, you know, 
what's probably not the be all 

712
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,560
end all, but it's a, it's a good
estimation tool to be able to 

713
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,280
say, yeah, pretty clearly this 
is and this is how it works out.

714
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,480
And as you might expect, the 
electric buses are pretty much 

715
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,280
always going to win the 
equation, but it's by how much? 

716
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,000
And it gets to, again, where, 
where is the footprint? 

717
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,000
But there's, there's another 
important aspect which I haven't

718
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,040
brought in so far, but I will. 
And that's the role of the plug 

719
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,280
in hybrid vehicle, which is 
where I've been living in my own

720
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,920
personal space for the last 10 
years. 

721
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,800
I have personally driven a plug 
in hybrid vehicle and I believe 

722
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,520
that's the ultimate solution to 
the problem for the short term 

723
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,840
because the challenge electric 
vehicles have is the ability to 

724
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,360
have cruise range based on where
the chargers are, the cost of 

725
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,000
what charging is and the time it
takes to charge. 

726
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,120
All those things are dramatic 
issues. 

727
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,760
And you know the IRA was going 
to fix all of that. 

728
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,600
Well, when that got rescinded. 
Now where's the money going to 

729
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,240
come from not only for the 
charging stations that we might 

730
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,960
need ultimately, but also so for
the power plants. 

731
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:03,000
We're we're already competing 
for power plant bandwidth with 

732
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,240
the data centers and how AI is 
driving that to a higher level 

733
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:10,360
of power demand. 
That's the the EVs are going to 

734
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,560
report are going to compete for 
that. 

735
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,760
The advantage to the plug in 
hybrid is that you get the best 

736
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,960
of both worlds. 
You don't have to build all 

737
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,640
those charging stations 
necessarily. 

738
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,680
Just charge it at home. 
When your charge runs out, you 

739
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,200
run off gasoline. 
But the advantage to it is 

740
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,760
you're addressing the air 
pollution problem from 

741
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,080
combustion while you're driving 
around town on your battery. 

742
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,080
And when you're out on the 
highway, you run out of battery 

743
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:38,480
and now I'm on fossil fuel. 
But guess what? 

744
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,360
They're you're you're not 
exhausting all that information 

745
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,960
into the breathing zone of 
people. 

746
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,360
So it's a, it's a really good 
trade off. 

747
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,960
So that's not going to get you 
to the goal as fast as an EV 

748
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,360
will, but it's going to put 
points on the board that much 

749
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,400
more quickly because we don't 
have the charging, we don't have

750
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,880
the power plants to go all the 
way to the end of the tunnel. 

751
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,960
But we could pretty much convert
every new vehicle to a plug in 

752
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,760
hybrid and we would get points 
on the board way, way faster if 

753
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,240
we did that. 
So when you did, you also factor

754
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,720
in the cost of the vehicles and 
stuff we did because a lot of 

755
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:18,640
the EVs are a lot more expensive
in a lot of cases than a normal 

756
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,240
internal combustion car. 
And I'm thinking average Family 

757
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:25,000
Guy who just, you know, needs to
get a good, you know, $15,000 

758
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,480
car to, you know, run for a 
good, you know, 100,000 miles or

759
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,040
whatever, you know, until he's 
ready, whatever it is. 

760
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,400
I mean, when I look at those 
types of decisions versus an EV 

761
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,800
versus like that, I start to go,
it doesn't make as much sense as

762
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,520
an EV versus that because I just
feel like it seems like it's a 

763
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,280
better, more cost effective and 
less impact since you've already

764
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,560
the car's already been built. 
Like I don't not buying a new 

765
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:52,680
car, I'm buying a used car, 
right? 

766
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,400
You know, type thing. 
Well, there's a lot to unpack 

767
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,560
with with that. 
One of the things about electric

768
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,320
vehicles is the more the vehicle
weighs, and I'm not talking 

769
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,760
about the weight of the battery,
we're talking about the vehicle 

770
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,320
overall. 
The more it weighs, typically 

771
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,640
the the less well it's going to 
perform. 

772
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:16,520
So that the four door sedan, 
really small electric vehicles, 

773
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,840
which is kind of why Tesla went 
down that road. 

774
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,720
The smaller the vehicle, the 
better it's going to perform in 

775
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:23,400
all those categories you just 
talked about. 

776
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,600
But if we're talking a Suburban,
a Yukon, you know, even a pickup

777
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,240
truck, that's a more challenging
space. 

778
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,040
And that's why people have been 
really slow to conquer that 

779
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,160
marketplace. 
There's another really dramatic 

780
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,440
force here, and I don't know 
where that's going to happen, 

781
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,440
but it could be a shockwave for 
this. 

782
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,720
And that is the price of 
vehicles for electric in Asia is

783
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:51,680
shockingly low. 
You can buy an electric vehicle 

784
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:57,000
in China for a small fraction of
what things are here in the US, 

785
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:01,520
and of course those those 
Chinese vehicles are enjoying 

786
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,280
from coming into the US at this 
point. 

787
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,600
If that were to change, this 
whole discussion we had might 

788
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,480
change dramatically. 
Yeah, well, I mean, I just saw 

789
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,040
that didn't didn't Ford going to
start building a smaller unit 

790
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,800
type electrical car? 
It's like AI don't know 2 seater

791
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,760
truck or something that's like. 
Ford is really conflicted and 

792
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,160
they they pulled away from the 
electric F-150, Yeah. 

793
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,280
And I was surprised to see that,
but you know, I think they're, 

794
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,360
they're uncertain as a lot of 
people are. 

795
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,120
And and again, I I'm the voice 
for the plug in hybrid as the 

796
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,640
the hedge solution that will 
that you can do while the 

797
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,120
marketplace sorts itself out. 
The hybrid to me is the best 

798
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,040
choice. 
I I would, I would totally agree

799
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,400
with you there, John. 
I think that, and I was looking 

800
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,240
to get a hybrid just recently, 
but ended up going a different 

801
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:55,000
direction, but I, I like the 
hybrid because of all the 

802
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,400
reasons you just mentioned. 
I mean it, you know, you get the

803
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,600
benefit of battery charging and 
then you know, when you run out,

804
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,120
you, you, you've got, you know, 
you can, you know, fuel, but. 

805
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,080
Do what you want and, and just 
as an example, during COVID, 

806
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,840
when I had my previous vehicle, 
I went three months without 

807
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,520
buying gas. 
And that was really helpful when

808
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,960
you're in COVID and you really 
didn't want to be roaming 

809
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,720
around, being around other 
people and so forth. 

810
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:26,360
So we could just run my errands,
do my thing, come back to my 

811
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,240
house and I stayed within the 
battery's limits. 

812
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:33,440
Now I upgraded, now I have a, a 
Chrysler Pacifica minivan and it

813
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,600
will do 33 miles instead of the 
23 that I had before. 

814
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,200
So now when I'm in town, I 
almost never end up having to 

815
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,120
use fossil fuel. 
And when I go to Houston to go 

816
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,360
take a flight, I live in 
Beaumont, TX, that's 80 miles to

817
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,000
that airport. 
I'm going to end up using some 

818
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,720
gas, but I don't do that all 
that often, so it fits my 

819
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:58,520
lifestyle. 
Well, I think the big challenge 

820
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,760
with a lot of the people 
adopting is the, the grid, the, 

821
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:03,840
the charging grid that's out 
there. 

822
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,240
And and you know, I think that's
the biggest I think limitation 

823
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:09,400
for growth right now is that. 
Absolutely. 

824
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,320
There's not enough charging 
ports. 

825
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,080
And I mean, just think of all 
the people that live in like 

826
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,240
apartments, you know, or rental 
things like they, they don't 

827
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,400
have the infrastructure to put 
that stuff in their their, in 

828
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,240
their living spaces. 
So you're just not going to get 

829
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:27,160
the big adoption. 
I don't think as much as we'd 

830
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,640
like to see, but. 
Yeah, this is a suburban 

831
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,600
solution. 
There's there's no other way to 

832
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:32,640
describe it. 
Yeah. 

833
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Yeah, yeah. 
That's good. 

834
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,520
That's good. 
Well, let's keep going here. 

835
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,280
When we talk about, you know, 
this policy shift that's 

836
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,880
recently happened, you know, the
greenhouse gas engagement 

837
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,240
finding being rebuild the 
federal motor vehicle standard 

838
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,880
for the federal motor vehicle 
standards, the regulatory 

839
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:51,760
landscape is shifting 
significantly. 

840
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,160
In your view, does this make 
data-driven LCA more or less 

841
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,720
important for automotive 
manufacturer? 

842
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:02,400
I think the auto manufacturers 
are going to continue to be 

843
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,480
pressured by their consumers. 
Focus factors like Europe and 

844
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,600
others. 
Well, not just that, but their 

845
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,160
consumers focus. 
So just because the government 

846
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,080
thinks that climate change is 
not an issue, that doesn't mean 

847
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,000
the consumers feel that way, 
right? 

848
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:20,640
And and so as long as there's 
that universe of consumers that,

849
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,160
you know, are willing to be open
to the problem and open to the 

850
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,200
solution, but want to use that 
cost lens. 

851
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,880
And that's a really important 
part of LCA is it doesn't 

852
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,600
actually provide that cost lens.
There was a phenomenon 15 years 

853
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,520
ago called life cycle cost, 
which basically was an LCA with 

854
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,080
a cost layer on top of it. 
And that never really caught on.

855
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,640
But at some point maybe it will 
come back in because just 

856
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:51,120
reducing carbon with a passion 
without contemplating carefully 

857
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,120
what the cost will be of that, 
that's not really sustainability

858
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,800
because sustainability is, is 
this something that you can keep

859
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,160
doing Well? 
If it's something that is 

860
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,120
hurting your lifestyle because 
you're spending too much money 

861
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,080
on it, then you went too far. 
So the balancing act is to say I

862
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,560
want a carbon benefit, but I 
want to pay a fair price for it.

863
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,400
And so that's, that's what the 
consumer should be thinking 

864
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,280
about, whether he's a business 
consumer, you know, whether he's

865
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,040
buying a car or whatever. 
It's cost and benefit. 

866
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:21,800
That's how engineers are 
trained. 

867
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,520
That's how we should be 
thinking. 

868
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,160
Well, do you think this policy 
policy shift is going to maybe 

869
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,920
produce more hybrids versus 
fully electrics? 

870
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,320
I think what's going to produce 
more hybrids is the fact that 

871
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:41,040
you really can't make a trip 
across the country in an EV 

872
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,200
without it being extremely 
inconvenient. 

873
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,920
And I think most people that buy
cars have it in their mind 

874
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:48,160
they're going to take a 
vacation. 

875
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,160
And do they really want to plan 
their vacation around where the 

876
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,040
charging stations are? 
Some people will say, yeah, I'm,

877
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,160
I'm all in the car, but I'm 
going to do that. 

878
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,560
But that's really not even my 
boat. 

879
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,600
So, you know, I think that's 
what's going to drive it more 

880
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,760
than anything else. 
And of course, the IRA was going

881
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,760
to put those charging stations 
out there at a huge cost. 

882
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,720
And for whatever reason, we 
don't have that part of the IRA.

883
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,440
So that's not going to happen. 
So how quickly will we get the 

884
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,520
kind of charger density we need 
to make EVs ubiquitous without 

885
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,560
the government spend into that? 
I think it's going to be a slow 

886
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,560
process. 
Well, you know, so with EPA 

887
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,160
stepping back a bit on this with
the greenhouse gas standards 

888
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,960
now, do you believe like 
independent environmental 

889
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,280
product declarations will become
of the primary way mark the the 

890
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,160
market rather than the 
government determines which 

891
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,400
vehicles are truly green now? 
That's a good question. 

892
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,880
You know, only a few 
manufacturers have so far gone 

893
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,800
down the EPD route. 
In fact, they're, they're, I'm 

894
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,440
not aware of really many US 
manufacturers that have done it.

895
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,640
There are some foreign 
manufacturers that have. 

896
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,040
So will the EP DS become more 
more prevalent? 

897
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,400
I think as as people get more 
comfortable with how they're 

898
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,200
done and as we start to 
streamline the process, which 

899
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,800
there are efforts underway to do
that by both consultants and 

900
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,440
program operators that are the, 
are the places where these EP DS

901
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,520
are stored. 
That process is evolving pretty 

902
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,720
rapidly in part because people 
are using AI to streamline it to

903
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,960
a small extent, although trust 
but verify. 

904
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,440
That's my watchword whenever you
bring that up. 

905
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,280
But it it's, it is a changing 
landscape. 

906
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,800
I think people are still going 
to be involved with carbon for 

907
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,720
quite some time to come. 
And it's always been, you know, 

908
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:42,720
a roller coaster of up and down 
based on different events, kind 

909
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:46,200
of like the stock market. 
And I think that's going to 

910
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,120
continue. 
I, I don't think the 

911
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,480
endangerment finding is changing
anybody's pulse, but maybe it 

912
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,880
just does under score that 
market face forces come and go 

913
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,880
all the time. 
And, you know, there's, there's 

914
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,240
a, an action reaction sort of 
thing that happens with, with 

915
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:04,200
consumers. 
The auto manufacturers 

916
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:09,600
definitely are are paying huge 
attention to their customers and

917
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,960
they're paying attention to 
their their bankers and the 

918
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,720
private equities that control 
their supply chain. 

919
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:20,280
And so it's a complicated 
landscape, but no one is 

920
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,080
completely closing their eyes to
the carbon world because it 

921
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,000
impacts us, even if the 
government doesn't have rules 

922
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,000
for lots of reasons. 
Yeah, no, I I agree. 

923
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,200
So where do you think we go next
with this whole, you know, 

924
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:41,120
carbon, you know, footprint life
cycle assessment process, 

925
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,000
especially given the nature of 
your books being around, you 

926
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,200
know, car emission factors and 
and others. 

927
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:49,280
What? 
What do you think we're going to

928
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,120
be, you know, moving forward? 
I think this. 

929
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,520
Because it seems like the market
is really kind of like, oh, 

930
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,640
they're pivoting right now. 
I, I think the science is, is 

931
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,600
going to get better. 
I think the accuracy and 

932
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,800
defensibility and reliability of
this work is going to get better

933
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,120
because, you know, it is the 
evolving science still. 

934
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:16,520
So that is going to change the 
role of EP DS and how important 

935
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,160
that's going to be is, is yet to
be defined. 

936
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,000
And one of the things about EP 
DS that people don't really get 

937
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,880
is, is that that's only part of 
the process. 

938
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,680
So you quantify what your 
emissions are and you basically 

939
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,560
are checking a box saying, Yep, 
here's my emissions, I have an 

940
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,840
EPD. 
That is not a reduction plan. 

941
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,000
That is not a guarantee as to 
what your performance is going 

942
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,000
to be all the time. 
It is. 

943
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,480
It is a lot of different things,
but you know where that's going 

944
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,080
to go exactly. 
It's kind of hard to say. 

945
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:53,520
Do you, do you feel like, you 
know, down the road here we'll 

946
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:59,000
see like cars, you know, like we
see in our cars now you're 

947
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,160
driving and you get like, you 
know, metrics like average miles

948
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,520
per gallon, you know, you, you, 
you know where you know what 

949
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,000
you're getting for your, your 
trips and things like that. 

950
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,120
Do you think eventually we're 
going to start seeing CO2 

951
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,960
emission factors pop up on your 
screen on your car and then 

952
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,800
showing you like on a weekly, 
daily, monthly, whatever yearly 

953
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,960
assessment of your impact on 
emission for by driving your 

954
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,320
car? 
I don't see any reason why that 

955
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,640
couldn't happen because, you 
know, in electric vehicles in 

956
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,640
particular and in plug in 
hybrids, all that data is there.

957
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,640
It's just a matter of actually, 
you know, coding the the screens

958
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,600
to actually display that, you 
know, it's it's customer demand 

959
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,200
driven. 
Are the customers going to want 

960
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,640
to see that? 
Are they, are they interested in

961
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,480
carbon footprints for their meal
when they go to a restaurant or,

962
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,040
you know, supplies they buy in 
the hardware store That's, 

963
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,400
that's not going to happen 
tomorrow, the next day, you 

964
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,160
know, you're seeing it in Europe
in increasing levels and to a 

965
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:57,880
certain extent in Asia as well. 
So. 

966
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:00,800
Calories on the back of your 
your packaging. 

967
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,640
It tells you exactly. 
Exactly. 

968
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,280
And there was a move afoot in 
the UK to extend that packaging 

969
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,480
to include carbon footprint. 
And they got about 1/3 of the 

970
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,160
way down that highway and they 
just, they basically ran out of 

971
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,640
money and they stopped. 
So it, it is very costly to do 

972
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,280
that thing for, for some 
products, you know, for sure. 

973
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:26,320
But for EVs and, and even 
conventional gas combustion 

974
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,240
engines that have digital 
displays, you know, pretty easy 

975
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,320
to, to make that sort of 
information available. 

976
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,560
So, so yeah, I think, I think 
it's coming and, and I think it,

977
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,480
it has a, a good place. 
If you have an EV, it coaches 

978
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,520
you on, on, you know what's 
equivalent to miles per gallon, 

979
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,080
you get kilowatt hours per mile.
You, you get that readout. 

980
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,280
I get that readout all the time 
as I'm real time as I'm driving.

981
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,960
So it's not, it's not couched in
carbon, but in my brain I know 

982
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,440
it, you know, if my efficiency 
is poor, then my carbon is 

983
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,680
higher. 
You know, it's a pretty direct 

984
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,280
relationship there. 
Well, you know, and then when I 

985
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,200
look at it and I think of it, 
there's a lot of companies that 

986
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,120
are putting their sustainability
reports together and they, they,

987
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,040
they track, you know, what's my 
carbon impact from my, you know,

988
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,960
vehicle fleet that we have in, 
in the, in the, in the company. 

989
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,920
Well, how cool would it be if 
they could just like run the 

990
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,880
metrics right off the darn 
vehicles because it's already 

991
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,760
there. 
They don't have to go figure it 

992
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,200
out. 
They, you know, they actually 

993
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,760
get the actual number because 
they know how much was burned 

994
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,760
and they can pull that telemetry
right out of there. 

995
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,080
There there are some truck firms
that are that are working with 

996
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:34,840
software that do that sort of 
thing. 

997
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,480
I believe Walmart has a pilot 
program in place where they're 

998
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,720
trying to do that with their 
company owned trucks at least. 

999
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,400
So yeah, that's that's 
definitely coming. 

1000
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,520
Yeah, no, that's good. 
Well, John, what? 

1001
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,360
What? 
What can How can listeners get 

1002
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,680
copies of your books and learn 
more about your services? 

1003
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,600
Yeah, well, there's there's 
several ways. 

1004
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:02,600
The easiest is you can look for 
LCA 101-1021 O3 in Amazon. 

1005
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,720
They're self published there for
a ridiculously low price. 

1006
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:09,920
But if you want to get them even
cheaper or like for free, you 

1007
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,920
can also go to our website if 
you can navigate through and 

1008
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,680
find where the forms you fill 
out are. 

1009
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,880
Our website is beef dot US and 
you'll find a place where you 

1010
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,920
can see downloads there. 
The the the third book is in a 

1011
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:24,880
different place, which I'm 
trying to get moved. 

1012
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,960
That's if you look under the LCA
section and go all the way down 

1013
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,000
to the bottom of the page. 
You'll see the links for that. 

1014
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,000
And if you follow that link, the
advantage to that is you get a 

1015
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,800
zip file download of not just 
the the book and PDF form, but 

1016
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,320
also the XL. 
The XL is there as well. 

1017
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,360
OK, great. 
That's awesome. 

1018
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,480
That's really good. 
Well, John, thanks for coming on

1019
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,560
the show today. 
We really appreciate you coming 

1020
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:54,520
and talking to us about the life
cycle analysis and what the 

1021
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,440
great work you've been doing 
around developing this Excel 

1022
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,480
calculation spreadsheet that can
be used. 

1023
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,480
To to help people understand 
what their carbon impact is and 

1024
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,840
I really appreciate that. 
Thanks for listening and 

1025
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,160
watching the show. 
If you enjoyed the show then 

1026
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,880
please share it with your 
friends and Co workers on social

1027
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,000
media and tell somebody in 
person. 

1028
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,360
Thanks for being with us, ET 
Nation.