1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,400 Took several years digging through documents to finally 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,760 realize I was dealing with something a lot bigger than 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,040 that, and it was something that was impacting a lot of folks, 4 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:12,120 not just the farmer and his family, but this was a 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,920 contamination that was possibly spreading across the whole 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,920 community, but not the whole country and the whole world. 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,320 Welcome to the Environmental Transformation Podcast, where we 8 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,680 bring you interviews with industry leaders, climate 9 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,080 champions, sustainability practitioners, EHS and hazmat 10 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,000 professionals making an impact in their businesses today. 11 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,320 Each leader solving complex challenges and delivering 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,320 solutions within their areas of expertise. 13 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,800 I'm your host, Sean Grady, and thanks for joining us today. 14 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,560 Before we jump in, make sure to follow us on your devices and 15 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,040 visit my website at www.seangrady.com and sign up 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,480 for our newsletter and e-mail announcements. 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,320 Now let's get started. Welcome to the Environmental 18 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Transformation podcast. I'm your host, Sean Grady and 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,920 today's guest is the amazing Robert Balat. 20 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,800 Robert, thank you for joining the podcast today. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:08,160 We are here live at the AH and P Hazmat Summit in Louisville, KY. 22 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,520 And Robert just completed his keynote speaker speaker spot for 23 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,760 us here this morning. And it was an amazing speech and 24 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,720 the audience was just so happy and and amazed by your your 25 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,080 talk. So what was your take on the 26 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,200 response for the the audience? Oh, it was incredible. 27 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,920 I was so pleased to be able to be here. 28 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,240 I mean, this is really the folks that hopefully will be helping 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,680 us figure out how to fix this whole issue with P phos forever 30 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,680 chemicals. Yeah, exactly. 31 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,480 I mean, the, the, the storyline that you gave about, you know, 32 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:47,400 from your the start and to where we are today was a timeline that 33 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,160 it's really hard to put together, but you did it so 34 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,480 well. You just explained it 'cause 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:52,800 you've been living it for so long. 36 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,440 But I think the audience were just amazed that, you know, it's 37 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:01,440 been a 252426 year journey for you to see where we are today. 38 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,640 Talk about what it was like to, if you could for the audience to 39 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,039 hear, like, what was it like to be in the trenches every day in 40 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,480 the courtroom trying to convince people that this is a real issue 41 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,640 and you guys need to acknowledge this and stop the, you know, 42 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,480 stop the cover up here. Frustrating, very frustrating, 43 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,800 you know, to be doing everything you really could at the time. 44 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,760 And I was trying to do everything I could as a lawyer 45 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,280 to, to raise awareness, you know, filing briefs and arguing 46 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,600 in court and trying to make information public. 47 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,120 But it was incredibly difficult to breakthrough and took a lot 48 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,080 of additional steps. You're reaching out to the media 49 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,240 and screenwriters and storytellers to help get this 50 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,880 story to finally breakthrough. Yeah, So for the listeners who 51 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,640 don't know Robert, and there may be a few of you, but he is the 52 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,440 attorney behind the movie Dark Waters. 53 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,240 And so if you haven't seen that movie, I highly recommend you 54 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,680 take a, you know, an afternoon off or evening and watch the 55 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,240 movie Dark Waters. It is. 56 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,920 It's the story of the Parkersburg, WV community that's 57 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:10,280 been affected by P Foss contamination and your journey 58 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,040 of helping win lawsuits against DuPont. 59 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,960 Yeah, it's the movie actually ends around the time of, gosh, 60 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,720 20/15/2016. And since then, unfortunately, 61 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,640 what we've seen happen is the same story repeating itself all 62 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:30,960 over the United States and now all over the world. 63 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,400 So hopefully more communities, when they're finding out that 64 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,520 these chemicals are in their water and their oil, that they 65 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,280 can at least take take some comfort in knowing that we've 66 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,240 come a long way over the last 20 years and have a lot of 67 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,920 information now that people can use to help fix the problem. 68 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,080 I think the thing I recognize was the challenge of getting the 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:57,440 EPA to actually formally regulate this chemical and the 70 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,280 evidence that you provided over courses of years, that was plain 71 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,640 as day in my mind that based on the information and it took him 72 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,360 so long to get there. And I I'm just scratching my 73 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,800 heads. Why did it take so long? 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,240 Yeah, it's one of the reasons I wrote the book Exposure was, you 75 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,040 know, I hear that question a lot. 76 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,320 How is this, that this is still an ongoing issue and that why is 77 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,920 it that we're just now beginning to regulate these chemicals 78 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,160 decades after the story came out? 79 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,120 And, you know, that's unfortunate. 80 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,280 Fortunately, it's the way our regulatory system was set up 81 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,560 from the beginning in the 1970s that just led to this incredibly 82 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:42,920 difficult process with unbelievable burdens that are 83 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,600 required to with different types of proof and evidence and 84 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,480 science that are needed to move even the smallest steps forward. 85 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:54,560 And even when we get there, you know, we're finally at the point 86 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,600 where we're beginning to regulate some of these chemicals 87 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,720 in the US. And we see even when we get 88 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,280 there, that's challenged in court, you know, when lawsuits 89 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:08,240 are brought to try to stop it. So it's an incredibly, it's an 90 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,560 incredibly complicated and confused process that hasn't 91 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:13,680 worked very well. Right. 92 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,640 I think you know, is it like, you know, I'm a former 93 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,920 regulator, I've been a consulting for 23 years and I've 94 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,200 worked with Superfund, you know, projects and remediation 95 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,040 cleanups and PRPS and and companies just doing Retra. 96 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,280 The interesting part about the lack of disclosure of this 97 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:37,000 chemical through the Tosca process at the very beginning, 98 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:41,320 they knew it was toxic and failed to report it. 99 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,120 That was like the big what? Are you kidding me? 100 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,320 They had an obligation as a corporate company to do it. 101 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,440 They didn't. And I think that was like the 102 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,040 big miss from the beginning. Yeah, absolutely. 103 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,160 You know, a lot, a lot of this global contamination might have 104 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,280 been avoided, you know, if some of this had started to be 105 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:05,560 disclosed when it should have back in the the mid 1970s, you 106 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,160 know, when Tosca first came out and these companies had an 107 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,280 obligation to report substantial risk information. 108 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:16,960 And, you know, this is one of those situations that what 109 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,320 happens when they don't. You know, unfortunately, nobody 110 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,720 knew that until we were able to get in through litigation and 111 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,360 see these internal documents and show, well, wait a minute, they 112 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,560 did have information and didn't disclose it. 113 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,920 Well, by then, decades have gone by and the contaminations 114 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,000 occurred. And it's kind of difficult, if 115 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,480 not impossible at that point, to put the genie back in. 116 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,840 The bottle toothpaste doesn't go back in the bottle, right? 117 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,240 That is just so mind boggling that that occurred. 118 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:48,480 And and I think just them knowing all along that it it had 119 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,280 this level of toxicity and not really bringing it and 120 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:53,720 disclosing it. It's just man's shame on those 121 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,560 industries. You know, that did that in the 122 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,920 in the movie, you were really brought into this whole 123 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,000 situation that you weren't really aware of your yourself at 124 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,520 the time, but by a family friend. 125 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,320 Talk a little bit about the for the listeners, what that was 126 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,120 like when you realized I can't ignore this. 127 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,880 I have to do something. Yeah. 128 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,880 You know, I first first sort of started this whole process back 129 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,000 in 1998 and at the time really had no idea this was going to 130 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,880 turn into a process that dragged on the next 26 years. 131 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,360 It was, you know, a friend of my grandmother's had referred a 132 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,920 farmer in West Virginia to me, Mr. Tennant, who was having 133 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,400 trouble with his cows. And at the time, I thought it 134 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,720 was a pretty simple, see a straightforward issue with some, 135 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,480 some, some chemicals probably coming out of a landfill that we 136 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,320 could address and clean up pretty quickly. 137 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:51,120 And it was took me a while, took several years digging through 138 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,360 documents to finally realize I was dealing with something a lot 139 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,720 bigger than that. And it was something that was 140 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,920 impacting a lot of folks, not just that farmer and his family, 141 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:04,200 but this was a contamination that was possibly spreading 142 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,320 across the whole community, but not the whole country in the 143 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,840 whole world. Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm sure 144 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,080 it was pulling on your heartstrings too, a little bit 145 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,360 like, OK. And after you saw some of the 146 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,680 evidence that he provided you, you're like, Oh my God, we have 147 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,800 to do something. You can't just ignore. 148 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,360 It absolutely, you know, not only did we get the chance, 149 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,280 obviously to talk to Mr. Tennant and his wife and see all of the 150 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,120 photographs and the videotapes and hear about how this was 151 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,440 really, you know, devastating his family. 152 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,400 But to visit the farm and to visit the the other family 153 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,679 members and to see, you know, that this was a real problem for 154 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,360 folks that were, they were struggling with it every day and 155 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,160 really felt like we had the ability to help them. 156 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,440 We helped big companies like DuPont. 157 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,760 We didn't represent DuPont, but we we worked with big companies. 158 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,320 And if we had the ability to maybe fix this problem, again, 159 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,040 these were people in the community my mom grew up in. 160 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,080 This is something we ought to do. 161 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,200 And I was fortunate to be able to to be at a law firm that let 162 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,000 me do. It in the movie, though, there 163 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,200 were sometimes I think that the law firm was getting a little 164 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:20,720 nervous about the cost that was going into funding the, the work 165 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,720 you were doing on behalf of the plaintiffs. 166 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,960 Talk a little bit if you could, like the challenge and the and 167 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,640 the, you know, the stress that that caused because in the 168 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,560 movie, you know, I think you went to the hospital over, you 169 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,040 know, talk a little bit, if you could about that, because that's 170 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,360 important. Yeah, You know, after we 171 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,960 realized that this was a problem that was much bigger than Mr. 172 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,840 Tennant and the the one farm of West Virginia, Yeah, we made 173 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,560 this decision to launch a big class action lawsuit against 174 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:55,640 DuPont and using a law that really hadn't been used much 175 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,200 before. So we here we were bringing, you 176 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,400 know, this big class action against one of the world's 177 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,800 biggest chemical companies and owner completely unregulated 178 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,360 chemical under new laws. It was a big risk and it dragged 179 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,600 on for several years. And it wasn't clear how that was 180 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,040 going to shake out. And then even once we settled 181 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,720 that case, we had set up this process to to have scientists 182 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,520 figure out what the chemical could really do to people. 183 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,640 And at the time, you know, we thought again, that would be 184 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,520 hopefully wrapped up in a year or so. 185 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,240 And it stretched out over 7 years. 186 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:34,640 And during that time, it just so happened to be the point in time 187 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,520 where we had this massive economic meltdown going on in 188 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,120 our country, 2008. Right. 189 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:44,640 So here's money going out the door and all these years of cost 190 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,160 building up and building up. So very stressful because in the 191 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,440 meantime, not only was, you know, this costing a lot for the 192 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,440 law firm, that you had people getting sick in that community, 193 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,320 people waiting for these answers. 194 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,760 So a lot of pressures built up during that. 195 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,840 Period. Oh, yeah, I can only imagine. 196 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,840 And I'm sure the hours you spent like this was your sole job. 197 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,760 There wasn't any other thing you were really doing. 198 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:13,000 This was 100%, probably 60 to 80 hours a week this job, right? 199 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,000 Yeah. I mean, by the time we had 200 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,160 resolved that, that big class action lawsuit and we're waiting 201 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,920 for the science panel in most, almost all of what I was doing 202 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,920 was working on this case. And you know, because a lot of 203 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,240 the corporate clients weren't necessarily calling me at that 204 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,080 point. So it was a lot of stress. 205 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,440 Oh, I can imagine. You know, the EPA now has come 206 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,240 out in, what is it September of last year, I think it was where 207 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:46,720 they came out or and said, OK, we've established MCLS for P 208 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,720 Foss largely based on a lot of the UCMR data that was collected 209 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,200 and the information you provided and seeing the lawsuits. 210 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,960 Where do we stand now because they came out and said we're 211 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:05,240 regulating the long chain, the 2 long chains down to four parts 212 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,320 per trillion and the six or four of the six shorter chain ones 213 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,880 down as as well, the Gen. X ones, right. 214 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,240 And now it went into rule, I guess the law, but I don't know 215 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,280 if it actually like really officially implemented. 216 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,480 I'm kind of thinking because there was a lawsuit that just 217 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,880 was submitted by the industry about no, that's not so is that 218 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,840 rule like in a stay position? It's not really a in in play. 219 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,280 Maybe talk about that. And then also the recent 220 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,600 announcement for the new administration that they want to 221 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,480 pull back the, the, the, the new MCLS for the four shorter chain 222 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,480 compounds and study them further. 223 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,520 Yeah, it's it gets pretty complicated because as you 224 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,800 mentioned, we had the USEPA right, kind of at the end of the 225 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,440 prior administration announced official MCLS, enforceable 226 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,080 drinking water standards for I believe it was 6 different P 227 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,960 Foss including the two that we know the most about PFOAPFOS, 228 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,120 the C8 long chain, right. And they also announced rules 229 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,960 that they were going to regulate those two PFOA and PFOS is 230 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,080 hazardous substances under Superfund. 231 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:27,600 Those laws became effective, but they had implementation periods 232 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,480 that they would be phased in over time. 233 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,080 And when the new administration came in with the drinking water 234 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,080 rule, they have stood by and are keeping the two drinking water 235 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,040 standards for PFOA and PFOS stated that they were going to 236 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,600 pull back the standards for the other ones and re evaluate those 237 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,440 and possibly resubmit them again. 238 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,600 We don't know yet. And in the meantime, there were 239 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800 lawsuits filed as you indicated by industry and I think some of 240 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,400 the water associations against the water rule and also industry 241 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,400 filed lawsuits to try to stop the Superfund designation. 242 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,440 Those lawsuits are still pending. 243 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,440 They haven't been resolved yet. And after the new administration 244 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,800 came in, what's been happening is we keep seeing extensions of 245 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,880 time, stays of that litigation to give the EPA time to figure 246 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,040 out what position are they going to take. 247 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,360 So we unfortunately just don't know yet. 248 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,360 What we do know is there's going to be more time for folks to 249 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,120 comply with the drinking water rules that's been extended. 250 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,400 Two years right to 2031 now. It's been extended and and at a 251 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,600 minimum at least we have PFOA and PFOSMCLS remaining 252 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,200 effective. Oh, that's good to hear. 253 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,720 I mean, and and you know, if you're in the process of 254 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,840 treating P phos contamination and you're going to try to get 255 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,840 those two out of your system, that system will more than 256 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,720 likely take out the. Other one Hello ET Nation, I 257 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,720 want to thank you for listening to the podcast. 258 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,640 If you're enjoying the interviews we bring you, 259 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,640 consider supporting the program by visiting my website. 260 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,960 At seankgrady.com. 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You need to operate more 298 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,760 efficiently and reduce cost. Whether you're a generator 299 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,000 looking for better options or a service provider seeking greater 300 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,520 efficiency, Wastelink has you covered if you're ready to. 301 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,440 Take control. Of your waste management 302 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,760 processes and optimize your business. 303 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,400 Visit wastelink.com to schedule a demo today. 304 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,720 So what states do you think are like the first movers and 305 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,320 adopters of establishing their own P FOS levels for industry in 306 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,480 their state? I think we've had several states 307 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,160 that have really sort of led the way on the science on P FOS. 308 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,480 In fact, even the USEPA has looked to the folks within these 309 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,080 states. States like New Jersey, which 310 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,720 have adopted some of the very first state enforceable MCLS in 311 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,200 Minnesota is another as well. Other states have started to 312 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,520 move forward and unfortunately those are states that have 313 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,520 really good toxicologist risks assessors. 314 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,760 They have programs to do this. There are a number of states 315 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,400 though, that don't don't have those resources and have been 316 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,680 waiting for the federal standards or they've got laws 317 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,440 that don't allow them to be any different from the federal 318 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,720 standards. So unfortunately there are a 319 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,720 number of places throughout the country that are dependent on 320 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,080 what the USEPA does. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 321 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,000 And, and you're right. And I used to be a former 322 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,320 regulator in Indiana and yeah, I don't believe they have the 323 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,120 resources. They're they, they would 324 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:45,160 definitely default to the EPA standard and I can see that. 325 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,280 What's your take on the, you know, the drinking water 326 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,800 utilities and how they're responding to this rule and 327 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,160 addressing the contamination in their systems? 328 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,000 Because I kind of feel for them. They didn't 'cause this, but 329 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,160 they're required to fix it. There's not enough money to go 330 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,240 around to actually support them from a state funded type 331 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,120 support. It seems like I know that the, 332 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,640 the infrastructure bill was supposed to allocate a lot of 333 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,200 money, but it really wasn't enough adequately. 334 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,920 And then the ratepayers are the the, the innocent bystanders 335 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,600 here that are really paying in a lot of ways and talk a little 336 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,160 bit about your what you see there. 337 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,800 Exactly. You know, the part of the one of 338 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,560 the main victims of all of this are really the the water 339 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,080 suppliers. You know, these folks didn't put 340 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,360 the pee fuss in the water yet. They're the ones that are 341 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:42,000 getting stuck with the bills to try to now comply with these 342 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,880 drinking water standards and to try to figure out how do we get 343 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,600 this out of the water. And we, we're representing 344 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,840 hundreds of water supplies all across the country that are 345 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,640 facing this issue. And one of the things we've been 346 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,240 trying to do is make sure that those costs don't get pushed 347 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,760 onto the ratepayers, or at least as much of that cost as 348 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,160 possible. It's placed on the people who 349 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,080 really are responsible, and that's the people who created 350 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,680 these chemicals. So that's why you see all this 351 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,000 litigation and that's been going on across the country against 352 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,400 the makers of those chemicals and firefighting phones to make 353 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,200 sure those costs. Don't get pushed onto the 354 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,640 cities. And that's what led to these 355 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,800 recent settlements of, you know, billions of dollars from three M 356 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,840 DuPont and Tycho BASF, you know, to to to go out toward the water 357 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,640 suppliers to help them. And as you mentioned, the 358 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,240 federal government has also allocated billions. 359 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,960 And yes, it'll probably still cost more than that, but at 360 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,640 least we're trying to do everything we can to make sure 361 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,560 that as much of those costs as possible don't get pushed onto 362 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,400 the victims of the contaminants. Yeah, and and I, that's only 363 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,920 fair. I mean, and I look at it and 364 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,560 it's, it is a travesty, but it does feel like maybe I just not 365 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,240 seeing it, but I, I feel like the utilities could be a little 366 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,560 more vocal and, you know, and also supportive of this 367 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,520 situation, But maybe they are. I again, it's it's a problem 368 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:11,720 that is really hard to deal with. 369 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,920 And and then I think that the regulating pop P Foss as a rate, 370 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,160 you know, hazardous substance under CERCLA opens up a whole 371 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,920 different can of worms, doesn't it? 372 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,760 I mean, now you've got, you know, all appropriate inquiries 373 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,600 that it opens up, you know, you've got the circle of 374 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,040 liability potential. Now a lot of states are looking 375 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,440 at this like, well, we've got remediation programs. 376 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,760 Maybe we have to reassess a site now that we never anticipated 377 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,720 foreclosure, that we already gave closure for kind of 378 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,320 harkening back to like the vapor intrusion era when that came 379 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,360 out. Well, we have to reopen some. 380 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,680 So what is? Is circular really the best 381 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,760 regulatory framework to to manage this and could it be a 382 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,040 different process? I think you've highlighted some 383 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,440 issues which really help explain why there's a huge debate going 384 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,560 on right now over the Superfund designation and, you know, 385 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,240 possible RECRA rules coming out and other ways to try to 386 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,520 regulate these chemicals. Because really the, the main 387 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,800 thrust here has been want that this desire to make sure that 388 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,680 the people who created these chemicals are the ones 389 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,920 responsible for the cleanups. And, you know, one of the ways 390 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,720 that was thought to do that was, you know, well, let's designate 391 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,560 them hazardous under the Superfund law. 392 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,440 What makes the polluter pay? And there's been real concern, 393 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,000 though, about whether that's the way it'll work and whether those 394 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,160 costs are are possibly going to actually get shifted down to the 395 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,880 victims, to the water providers. For example, when they clean the 396 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,960 stuff out of the water and they end up with spent carbon or 397 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,840 other material that's contaminated with these 398 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,920 materials, suddenly they're now generating this waste that's 399 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,400 going out as hazardous under the Superfund law. 400 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,680 That's going to increase their cost. 401 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,280 So there's a real push and a lot of debate going on right now as 402 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,000 to whether there should be exemptions for certain sort of 403 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,840 innocent. Landfills, landfills come to 404 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,240 mind. I mean, they've got leachate and 405 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,680 they'll treat it, but then there's some levels of that 406 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,680 material that may, you know, leak a little bit and they 407 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,880 didn't 'cause it. They just were the receivers of 408 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,920 it. And now under Circla, they can 409 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,000 be a super fund PRP. Exactly. 410 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,840 And so that's why you see, you know, a real concern being 411 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,440 raised by water providers, by landfill owners, airports, other 412 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,840 folks that are concerned about where those costs are going to 413 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,840 end up. And, yeah, there's been 414 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,560 recognition that maybe we need even a new law. 415 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,920 You know, something I had back in, I think it was 2021, you had 416 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,920 new legislation proposed by Senator Gillibrand out of New 417 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,200 York and others that were looking at, you know, how do we 418 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,240 make sure that these costs actually get placed on the 419 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,480 people that created the chemicals and not the downstream 420 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,880 folks? And that was called the PFOS 421 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,040 Accountability Act. And it was introduced and really 422 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,920 didn't go anywhere, never even got hearings. 423 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,760 It got reintroduced just recently, another year or so 424 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,840 ago, and again, didn't go anywhere. 425 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,200 But so I think it highlights that folks are really searching 426 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,840 for what's the most effective way to make sure the right 427 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,840 people, the people that actually caused the problem, are the ones 428 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,680 who pay these costs. And that's, that's incredibly 429 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,200 difficult in our legal system, right? 430 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,880 Now yeah, I can. I can only imagine. 431 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,560 Well, I definitely feel like my personal opinion is it shouldn't 432 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,800 be in circle ish problem, maybe be in RECRA or or maybe a new 433 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,960 law, right that you just mentioned, which would be great. 434 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,840 And I think that would be appropriate. 435 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,360 But let's see where the government goes with that and 436 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,960 legal minds, you know, help shape that narrative and 437 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,480 conversation. That would be great. 438 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,600 You know, when you look to the future, where do you see 439 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,640 technology helping or or opportunities that they can help 440 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,760 address some of these contamination situations we have 441 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,760 in our hands? I think there's an unbelievable 442 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,200 opportunities that are presented right now in the PFOS world on 443 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,480 the technology side. I mean, you're, you're dealing 444 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,720 with these chemicals that are pervasive in our soil, our 445 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:27,200 water, food, animals, plants, people, air, I mean, the entire 446 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,160 planet contaminated and some of these chemicals being of the 447 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,080 nature that they'll be there virtually forever, millions of 448 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,240 years, if not longer. And so we need ways effective 449 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,320 technologies for actually removing, getting rid of this 450 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,960 stuff because everything we've pumped out since the 1940s, 451 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,920 which is still there. So yes, we can filter the water. 452 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,800 We could be, there are technologies that already exist 453 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,800 for getting this out of our drinking water, but getting it 454 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,760 out of the aquifers, getting it out of the streams, getting it 455 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,000 out of the lakes, getting it out of the soils. 456 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,880 Those are very difficult challenges, but it's creating 457 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,600 incredible opportunities because the market for this is so huge 458 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,840 that I think you're seeing a lot of folks jumping in trying to 459 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,200 develop those technologies. Now how do we, how do we, can we 460 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,840 burn it? Can we incinerate it? 461 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,680 Can we use plasma? You know, there's all these 462 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,560 different technologies being developed, and I think the 463 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,200 people in that field have just some incredible opportunities 464 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,360 before. I know that the designation of 465 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,040 PFOS as a hazardous substance is having a pretty sizable effect 466 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,840 on the waste industry. A lot of companies, even 467 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,040 landfill firms, they're like, well, we don't want to start 468 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,000 taking this anymore. We need to, you know, I think we 469 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,640 just you guys go incinerate that or find out maybe deep well or 470 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,480 other, you know, scenario. But you know, talk about if you 471 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,800 could have you sensed that? I mean, because it's a, there's 472 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,920 a lot of bent up or there's not a lot of capacity to treat all 473 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,800 of the peep postets out there. I mean, that's another challenge 474 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,000 I think industry's faced with. They're like, we don't have 475 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,040 enough capacity to treat everything if it's going to go 476 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,640 like incineration. Absolutely. 477 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,360 And in fact, part of the problem is too that the laws are also 478 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:13,400 changing there. You have jurisdictions that are 479 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,560 now preventing or prohibiting incineration or are saying we 480 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,720 don't want this being brought in to our states or you know, it's 481 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,200 so it's, and then now you've got sort of this inconsistent 482 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,120 patchwork, you know, across the country and internationally as 483 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:29,800 well. Now we we see some companies 484 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,280 that are trying to ship this stuff overseas or from overseas 485 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,160 back into the US to try to figure out where to dispose of 486 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,120 it. So it's sort of the Wild West 487 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:43,080 out there right now as far as what can you do with it, What is 488 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,200 allowed, where is it allowed, you know, and how long. 489 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,040 Yeah, I, I've, I've just noticed there's a lot of firms that are 490 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,440 just like it's we can take it in has waste landfill, but we're 491 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,760 not taking it non has in the unregulated portion portions of 492 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,920 it. They just don't want to deal 493 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,800 with the future liability, right. 494 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,760 And and that's the big challenge. 495 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,880 You know, earlier you did mention during the speech that 496 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,680 there's a lot of activity around PFOS in, in and around the 497 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,320 world, like in Europe or Australia. 498 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,960 There are a lot of other countries that are dealing with 499 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,720 the same type of issues that we're dealing here from pretty 500 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,720 much the same type of chemical manufacturer facilities that are 501 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,560 there. Can you, have you been involved 502 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,320 or have you been able to talk to other country leaders you know, 503 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,080 that are dealing with and, and, and what's their take on how 504 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,320 they're addressing it? Yeah, I have. 505 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,080 I've had the opportunity to speak with folks at the EU and 506 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,200 the UK and the Australian government and the French as 507 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,320 well that are folks that when they're trying to figure out 508 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,240 what would be the most effective laws and what do we know about 509 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,920 the science. And so trying to really help 510 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,400 these folks understand what do we know and what is known about 511 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,200 this. And So what you've seen is, 512 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520 yeah, we're we're seeing sort of an awakening across across the 513 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,680 planet that people are realizing, wait a minute, we're 514 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,840 finding the same chemicals in the water in Japan and Australia 515 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,920 and Europe and what's going on here? 516 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,280 And I think they're trying to grasp, is this the same stuff? 517 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,760 Is it different from what we were dealing with in the US? 518 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,520 And the laws are different and the their approaches are 519 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,160 different. So you end up with varying 520 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,680 approaches to how these other countries are trying to address 521 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,960 it. And we know, I'm just trying to 522 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,680 make sure that I can do what I can to help them at least know 523 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,160 what we know and what is what information is available. 524 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,600 Is it a lot of these places when they find these chemicals, 525 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,600 they're thinking, oh, this is something new. 526 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,360 Nobody knows enough anything about it. 527 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,120 And we gosh, we need me When you start doing all these studies. 528 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,520 No, we've got a lot of studies. We've got a lot of data. 529 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,320 Let's let's move forward and not redo a lot of it. 530 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,280 So it's a, it's a. It's very confusing in a lot of 531 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,480 places, right? Now, yeah, it really is. 532 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,240 So it's probably fair to say that you you're in large amounts 533 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,960 of ongoing litigation, a lot of cases across the country, yeah. 534 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,160 There's a lot of litigation still going on. 535 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,240 You know, as I mentioned, in addition to all the water 536 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,200 systems we've been dealing with, you know, you've got claims 537 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,440 we're representing a number of States and dealing with trying 538 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600 to make sure their natural resources are protected. 539 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,880 And you've got individual cases now being filed by thousands of 540 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,840 people across the country are concerned about cancer and other 541 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,720 health effects. And now you're seeing a lot of 542 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,360 litigation we're not necessarily as involved in with, you know, 543 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,240 companies being sued that are sort of downstream, you know, 544 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,920 that whose products have been found to have these chemicals in 545 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,760 them. So it's unfortunately the 546 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,120 litigation is only growing. And it's not just here in the 547 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,520 US. It's starting now overseas as 548 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,360 well. Wow. 549 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,200 You know, I do feel like there is an awareness now in industry 550 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,680 manufacturers are trying to, you know, eliminate P FOS chemicals 551 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,840 and their products. They're advertising PP FOS free 552 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:11,000 and it seems like education wise and I guess corporate steward 553 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,520 being a good company steward, you know, is having a big impact 554 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,240 a little bit. There's a change, there's a 555 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,680 shift, but obviously it sounds like we need more, right? 556 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,480 Yes, and I think consumers are really driving a lot of that. 557 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,120 Even though the laws are starting to change, a lot of 558 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,080 that hasn't happened yet. A lot of it's still being 559 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,440 debated among the law of the lawmakers and policy makers. 560 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,360 But in the meantime, consumers have started to become aware 561 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,000 films and other outreach efforts and you know, they're starting 562 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720 to say, well, I'm not going to wait for the law to say this 563 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,200 shouldn't be in the product. I don't want it in the stuff I'm 564 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,720 buying today. So they're they're reaching out 565 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,200 to the big retailers and saying we don't want these chemicals in 566 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,200 our products. And we're seeing the impact of 567 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,600 that. Some of the biggest retailers in 568 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,320 the planet have you know, fast food makers, fast food wrapper 569 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,320 makers, clothing, carp carpeting and all these companies coming 570 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,120 out and voluntarily saying we're going to take these chemicals 571 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,520 out of our products now. And you know, a lot of times 572 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,320 that's difficult because which chemicals are you talking about 573 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,840 when you say P Phos free, which chemicals are you including and 574 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,480 that what detection level is P Phos free? 575 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,560 So it's difficult, but at least you're seeing awareness that 576 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,960 that is an issue and consumers are are driving that. 577 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,320 And that's good. You know, they're putting their 578 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,120 money where their mouth is. They want to buy the products 579 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,800 that are, you know, lining up with their values. 580 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,640 And that's really good. You know, another topic you hit 581 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,080 on I thought was quite interesting is that you talk 582 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,680 about SDS documents and you know, when you're looking at the 583 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,600 chemical makeup of a product and it says proprietary, I don't 584 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,480 know how many SDSS I've seen like that, like hundreds of 585 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,920 them. And it's not disclosing the 586 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,160 actual chemical. And you know, we're 587 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,960 environmental professionals here in this at this attending this 588 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:07,280 conference and it's our job to report on, you know, chemical 589 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,600 exposure to potential to admit or or cause harm. 590 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,240 And if you can't get that information from your SD S S and 591 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,480 you're unknowingly exposing your, your coworkers or your, 592 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,800 you know, customers, it's not good. 593 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,240 Now, and that that's been a, that's been a, a problem going 594 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,040 back quite some time, at least with these chemicals, as you 595 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,000 indicated, unfortunately, a lot of times this was considered 596 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,120 proprietary confidential information. 597 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,520 What's what's in the secret sauce, you know, that's got 598 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,760 these chemicals on. And even when the companies 599 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,120 finally did start revealing some of that in their material safety 600 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,080 data sheets, you saw continuing misrepresentations about what 601 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,760 the effects were. You know, this is the no, no 602 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,520 possibility of harm or there's no evidence that this could 603 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,080 cause risk of harm. And so, you know, it's one thing 604 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,160 to disclose it and then it's whether the chemicals even 605 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,880 there. But then you need accurate 606 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,760 information about what the risks. 607 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,159 Also, particularly when if you're the only company making 608 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,280 it or you have the information about what those risks are, you 609 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,880 need to be transparent about what they really are. 610 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,239 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, totally agree. 611 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,120 And well, where do you see next few years now in the forecast 612 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,760 because you know, now we're going to look forward. 613 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,560 I mean, we've been looking backwards about, you know, 614 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,000 what's transpired and the amazing work you've done. 615 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,800 And I personally feel like you single handedly have been the 616 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,840 the driving force of the EPA regulating this material. 617 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,199 And thank you for doing that and and all your tireless efforts. 618 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,400 But where do you see them moving forward? 619 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,440 I think, I guess I'd remain optimistic that we're going to 620 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,480 can see continuing efforts to really regulate and control 621 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,920 these chemicals. I think not only do we have the 622 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,760 public now demanding it, I think you have a lot of lawmakers, a 623 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,320 lot of folks within the scientific community now that do 624 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,960 understand enough about these chemicals and realize the real 625 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,480 risk they present to human health and the environment that 626 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,560 this is now perceived as a real public health threat issue. 627 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,520 Yeah. There's going to be economic 628 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,840 impact because these chemicals are are so pervasive within not 629 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,800 only our economy, but the world economy. 630 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,840 Yeah, it's going to cost money. But I think we also know that 631 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,160 we've got society now that's also keenly concerned about 632 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,480 public health. And, you know, this is something 633 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:34,000 that we hopefully can do something about. 634 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,120 And, you know, these are chemicals that we know enough 635 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,920 about now to actually do something. 636 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:46,440 Robert, I, I, you're like my environmental hero and you 637 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,000 should be on the Mount Rushmore Environmental Heroes. 638 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,120 So I want to thank you for taking the time to come and 639 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,800 speak with me and our audience here on the Environmental 640 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,800 Transformation Podcast and also our fantastic members and 641 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,960 attendees of the EHS Hazmat Summit that we're all 642 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,600 environmental professionals trying to do better and make our 643 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,640 world better place to live and comply with the rules and laws. 644 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,680 And so we really thank you for coming and sharing your story, 645 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,960 just an amazing story and, and continue doing what you're 646 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,240 doing. We're here to support you any 647 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,360 way we can and so really appreciate you well. 648 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,040 Thanks so much, it's a pleasure. All right, Robert, thank you so 649 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,640 much. Thanks for listening and 650 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,960 watching the show. If you enjoyed the show then 651 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,640 please share it with your friends and coworkers on social 652 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,800 media and tell somebody in person. 653 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,120 Thanks for being with us, ET Nation.