1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:06,040 We need to have a dedicated, consistent educational process 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:10,040 for recycling in our country. And it shouldn't be just state 3 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,520 to say it should be. I think federally, but also 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,760 state to state. I was just in Paris a couple 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,400 weeks ago and I'm in the subway and there's these huge recycling 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,160 pictures on the subway walls. And it's like, it was a can and 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,200 it had wings on the can. It says, hey, this can doesn't 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,800 get recycled by itself, basically saying it takes, you 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,800 have to actually put it in the trash can. 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,320 And it talks about it's the, it's the we're trying to 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,040 accomplish improving sustainability and recycling and 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,240 things like that. Welcome to the Environmental 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,200 Transformation Podcast, where we bring you interviews with 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,880 industry leaders, climate champions, sustainability 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,680 practitioners, EHS and hazmat professionals making an impact 16 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,720 in their businesses today. Each leader solving complex 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,480 challenges and delivering solutions within their areas of 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,320 expertise. I'm your host, Sean Grady, and 19 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,560 thanks for joining us today. Before we jump in, make sure to 20 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,480 follow us on your devices and visit my website at 21 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,640 www.seankgrady.com and sign up for our newsletter and e-mail 22 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,720 announcements. Now let's get started. 23 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,680 Welcome to the. Environmental Transformation 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,920 Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Grady, and 25 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,800 today's guest is Megan Colligan Hembree. 26 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,720 And she is a member, or actually she's a partner of Holland 27 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,640 Knight in Washington, DC, where she counsels Fortune 500 28 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,960 companies and global brands on chemical risk, environmental 29 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:35,560 compliance and high stakes disputes and transactions. 30 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,200 Her focus is strategic, helping clients manage complex liability 31 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,960 across the life cycle of chemicals from product 32 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:47,120 development and disposal and turn regulatory complexity into 33 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,440 competitive advantage. Megan, welcome to the show. 34 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,480 I've watched you on some of your posts on LinkedIn and it piqued 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,440 my interest 'cause you were speaking on EPR a couple times 36 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,840 and I thought, you know what, let's bring the expert in 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,200 illegal expert get her perspective on this. 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,400 So welcome to the show. Sean, it's great to be here with 39 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,880 you today. Yeah, thanks. 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,040 Talk a little bit about let's give a definition for some of 41 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,760 the listeners who may not be that familiar with EPR. 42 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,360 Maybe you can just kind of give a high level summary of what is 43 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,840 it and how does it affect, how does it affect the industry and 44 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,680 maybe people personally. I think that's a great place to 45 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,640 start because it doesn't exactly provide a clear vision of what 46 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:35,160 it's intending in its name. But if you look at the basic 47 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,640 words, the first one is extended. 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:44,320 So they're in essence laws that are designed to extend 49 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,920 responsibility related to the end of life management for 50 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:52,800 product disposal and recycling to the parties that are 51 00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:58,760 producing the plastic as a component of their product and 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,200 therefore their, you know, their method of transferring their 53 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,840 product to customers. So historically, it's very 54 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,800 important to start here. Waste is managed at the local 55 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:18,400 level generally, so every municipality has a different way 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,120 of doing things. There are general obligations 57 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,520 under federal law for how landfills are managed and 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:31,520 permitted and how recycling infrastructure generally exists, 59 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,280 and all of that implementation occurs at the state and local 60 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,320 level. And in 2018, China stopped 61 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:44,040 accepting waste from other countries. 62 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,440 At that moment in time, we saw from a policy perspective a 63 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,360 significant moment, a window of opportunity for issues related 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,360 to the plastics and waste streams in America to take full 65 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,400 center screen. And right around that time 66 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,240 period, U.S. policy makers and states started asking themselves 67 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,840 what are we going to do? How are we going to handle this? 68 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,160 At the same time, in Europe, at almost the exact moment in time, 69 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,600 we had the EU, for example, developing their first set of 70 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,040 plastic bands for single use products. 71 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,680 This is all around the same time where they started shifting 72 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,520 plastic straws to paper straws in the United States in multiple 73 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,120 jurisdictions, as well as shifting plastic bag 74 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,640 requirements and adding plastic bag fees. 75 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:46,760 And so this 2018 time period was really important for shaping the 76 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,400 way the next seven years have gone with plastics and the focus 77 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,720 of plastics and everyone trying to figure out what to do. 78 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,000 Yeah, it has been a an evolution, so to speak, of 79 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,160 watching the industry figure out how to handle this. 80 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,640 You mentioned the the China sword type act where they were 81 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,480 not accepting any plastic from anywhere, any country they 82 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,960 really put a bond on. A lot of companies are in the 83 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,800 countries in general. There was a period of time where 84 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,240 you could recycle plastic and you were getting some money for 85 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:17,480 it. And then all of a sudden, nobody 86 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,560 could recycle any plastic because no one was buying it. 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,800 And that was a big, a big change in the industry, as I recall. 88 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,160 Yeah. So now, extended producer 89 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,560 responsibility. It's really not a new thing, 90 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,960 though, is it? When you link, look back and I 91 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,000 can remember way back when I was a young child, you want to go 92 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,040 buy Coke bottles of Coke or Pepsi or whatever, and you put 93 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,680 down a deposit for some of those bottles so you could get that 94 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,240 back 'cause they wanted those bottles to recycle and reuse. 95 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,560 And it's the same type of concept here to the extent to 96 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,320 where consumers are going to pay a little extra because there's 97 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,200 going to be this extended responsibility of the 98 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,240 manufacturer to take back those products and do something with 99 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:00,320 it. Maybe you can. 100 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,400 Let's talk a little bit about how are companies preparing to 101 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,160 comply with EPR regulations across different regions in the 102 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,880 industry. We just talked about a few, but 103 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,400 plastics might be one that we might be more familiar with. 104 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,720 And how is that looking and shaping up right now for us as 105 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,720 consumers? Let's just say we started our 106 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,040 conversation before we were recording about using the word 107 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,000 adventure. IA lot of companies are are 108 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,840 sitting down and trying to strategize what they're going to 109 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:32,960 do. This overlaps across multiple 110 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,800 avenues within a company's operations. 111 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,080 We've been assisting smaller companies as well as some of the 112 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,560 largest brands in the world with this. 113 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,920 And every single company has a different set of resources and a 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,400 different set of structures with a company that really guide the 115 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,680 way they're able to focus and pay attention to this. 116 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,160 But almost in every instance we're talking to the individual 117 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,440 that's managing, I'll say operations and or 118 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,120 sustainability. Sometimes those are two distinct 119 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,920 people, COO and sometimes they're the chief sustainability 120 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,600 officer. We're generally also meeting 121 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,520 with the legal department and frequently we're interacting 122 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:22,560 with folks within the ESG setting at the same time and 123 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,400 packaging engineers. We're also speaking with people 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,080 within the revenue divisions of companies. 125 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,640 So sometimes the CFO, sometimes it's their sales department, but 126 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,320 every single one of those individuals or roles becomes a 127 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,840 critical player and figuring out how is a company going to assess 128 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,960 their packaging use for reporting obligations that 129 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,560 happen to be distinct in the several states in which these 130 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,840 laws have been enacted. As well as you mentioned, this 131 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,480 has been happening in other places. 132 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,160 So there are global EPR requirements in Canada, for 133 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,760 example, is we're working with a lot of companies that are 134 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,360 selling their products into Canada and have obligations 135 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,800 there across the globe. Yeah, that's going to be a 136 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,760 pretty complex situation for a global company that has products 137 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,840 that go everywhere. And at this day and age, any 138 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,400 company could technically be global if they got a product 139 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,880 that they can sell and ship. It sounds like this is going to 140 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,600 be a consideration for a lot of firms to to evaluate when 141 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,600 they're making decisions on packaging their products, how 142 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,880 they create I guess the return loop so to speak of that 143 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,760 product. And maybe you can talk about 144 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,400 what that looks like for some of the discussions you've been 145 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,760 having with companies. What has been the biggest 146 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,760 challenge in from an operational perspective and maybe a 147 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,800 financial perspective of where companies implementing EPR 148 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,280 programs? I'll start with the supply chain 149 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,800 again. Every company is a different 150 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,360 size and a different scale and different scope, but we're 151 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,760 always coming back to where is this packaging material being 152 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,360 manufactured? Is it in the US? 153 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,720 Is it abroad? Is there a contract with the 154 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,680 manufacturer in which the brand remains responsible for the 155 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:13,040 packaging liability? Does the manufacturer take on 156 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,400 any of that liability once? Is it imported? 157 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,040 Who is the importer of record? Who's the distributor of record? 158 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,480 And all of those questions matter. 159 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,920 Is anyone licensing the brand? In some instances it's possible 160 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,040 that the licensee could be the company required to report. 161 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:33,080 A lot of the brands that we are working with are taking this 162 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,760 very seriously, understanding that this generally falls on 163 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,000 their lap to understand or distributors whether online 164 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,800 retail or in person retail distribution. 165 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,600 Those companies are assisting by providing the data that they 166 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,200 have. But a lot of it is really trying 167 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,360 to understand exactly where all the packaging is going, which 168 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,400 states is it even going into and how do we make sure that the 169 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,360 party that has the responsibility under the 170 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,680 specific state law is indeed registering for these programs 171 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:09,480 and reporting under these programs. 172 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,840 The complexities continue on, but I would say that's one of 173 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,960 the very first. Questions. 174 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:16,760 Yeah, great. Thinking about it from a 175 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,520 strategic perspective, you mentioned a few scenarios there, 176 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,000 but I'd imagine if you're a manufacturer, if you could write 177 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,080 into your contracts for some of these packaging companies that 178 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,360 they're that you're buying the material from that they're going 179 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,560 to be responsible. That's probably one way to kind 180 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,520 of offset or get around some of this type of responsibility. 181 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,960 Is that correct? So that's a really great point 182 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,560 and why I was saying that's just the beginning, right, Because 183 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:44,520 then OK, so what's next now we're looking at the contracts 184 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,360 now we're looking at the licensing agreements now. 185 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,480 And so it just continues in that you are chasing your supply 186 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,560 chain to understand it while also shirring up for future 187 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:59,960 years and future contracts. A lot of the agreements in the 188 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:04,920 packaging world are annual and for also then thinking about 189 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,880 strategic messaging for partners within your supply chain and 190 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:11,720 all. And these companies, many of 191 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,920 their these relationships are critical. 192 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,640 It's not in anyone's interest for these conversations to be 193 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,120 adverse. So we're also seeing business 194 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,440 wide decisions and business wide conversations where companies 195 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,400 are sitting down and at the table together to determine how 196 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,520 do we best do this as partners? Why do we do this as partners? 197 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,520 Because people don't like to talk to me that frequently. 198 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:44,800 Oh, I don't know. Why not? 199 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,800 Come on. Hey, so you're in the weeds, so 200 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,960 to speak with a lot of companies now trying to navigate these 201 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,400 requirements and and advising them, which is great. 202 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,080 But how is EPR influencing product and the package design 203 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,160 decisions within the industry, within the electronics, consumer 204 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:07,920 goods, automotive and there's a lot there in this area and comes 205 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,120 to mind is like how can companies be more thoughtful 206 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:16,160 about creating more of a circular economy related product 207 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,120 that you know is going to be used for packaging that's easily 208 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,360 recycled? It's not complicated, simple. 209 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,640 What are you seeing in that space where companies are really 210 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,680 investing in a little more thought in that? 211 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:36,680 Before these EPR laws started taking US operations by storm, 212 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,880 we saw so many companies being caught leaders around how they 213 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,080 could impact sustainability generally. 214 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:52,840 I want to preface with EPR being a, let's say, a tool in the 215 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,600 toolbox of moving towards the circular economy. 216 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:02,720 But there are so many other areas of law regulation and also 217 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,720 just consumer management and consumer relationship and trust 218 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,800 and reputation building that are critical right now. 219 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,480 There's also greenwashing risks in terms of like how we're how 220 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,240 companies are communicating what they're doing to their their 221 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,760 customers. So again, I start there because 222 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,720 EPR is just a piece of the puzzle and brands are many 223 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,920 brands are stepping into leadership roles right now and 224 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,240 evaluating that exact question. Some of them are designing new 225 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,480 packaging for their products and you can see what when you're out 226 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,920 of the store. There's some, I recently saw a 227 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:47,200 very well known brand that indicated on their bottle that 228 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,640 they had reduced the amount of packaging from the last bottle 229 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,160 that you had seen them using by a certain percentage. 230 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,200 And companies are proud of this. They're proud of the way they're 231 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,360 changing their materials management. 232 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,200 They're, they're looking at their climate reporting 233 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,240 requirements and saying, OK, in addition to reducing the amount 234 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,040 of materials we're using for this packaging, can we transport 235 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,280 it in a different way? There's studies out there that 236 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,680 show or that if you reduce the weight of packaging, it reduces 237 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,200 the amount of GSG emissions. So all of these things are 238 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,240 interconnected and companies are building out sustainability 239 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,000 committees that are thinking really critically about all of 240 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,960 these moving pieces. Then there's, of course, the, 241 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,000 like you'd mentioned, the milk bottles, Coke bottles. 242 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,680 We're also seeing the resurgence of bottle bills. 243 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,000 And in some states, if a company is participating in a bottle 244 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,360 bill, then they're exempt from EPR because why would you have 245 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,520 to pay into something if those bottles are being returned? 246 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,360 And actually the California EPR law related to textiles that'll 247 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,920 be coming into effect, I think it's in 2026, actually 248 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,360 contemplates full circular economy such that our clothes 249 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,000 are going back, they're going back into the system, nothing 250 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,320 goes into landfill. Yeah. 251 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,720 When I think about EPR, the challenge that it seems to be 252 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,240 most companies would struggle with is how do you validate that 253 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,160 you're actually getting a significant percentage of EPR 254 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,160 return, you know, taking place, Especially if you say you get a 255 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,640 lot of small products, a lot of small packages. 256 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,440 In my mind, I go it's ATV or it's a washer and dryer. 257 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,040 You're going to be able to track that one a little easier I would 258 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,480 imagine, 'cause they're big products, but little things. 259 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:51,280 How is the data collection side of this for reporting actually 260 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,360 going to get done in a way that companies could actually with a 261 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,960 straight face say we did 60% EPR return on our products this 262 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,280 year? Like how does that even happen? 263 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,760 I'll tell you this, I'm working with some pretty brilliant 264 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,440 people that have complex calculations and they're 265 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,040 weighing their materials and they're tracking it line by 266 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,520 line. And once there is data, it can 267 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,000 be analyzed. I'll say that. 268 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,840 But if the product doesn't come back to their own say facility, 269 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,280 we talk about say this whole, you've got individual EPR 270 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,080 company, company where they would set up the whole return 271 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,040 cycle process. And then you got this collective 272 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,480 type approach too, right, where couple companies bind together 273 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,760 and they create this type of return process. 274 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,320 Have you started to work with companies that are looking into 275 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,400 that direction and doing a more of a partnership or they're 276 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,680 creating a group or a team effort here to create a return 277 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,720 process so that the data can be tracked, they can validate what 278 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,400 happens? I'm just curious because I think 279 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,920 this is the one of the biggest obstacles, the struggle for 280 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:07,800 companies with this. There are multiple different EPR 281 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:17,000 regimes and the packaging regime does not currently focus on this 282 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,839 return process. OK. 283 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:25,520 The packaging side is really focused on these one time 284 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:32,440 materials are adding a protective layer to a box that 285 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,520 was a plastic film that gets thrown out. 286 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,960 Or I'm sure you buy something for a friend and they open the 287 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:43,000 box and there's some sort of cream in there and then there's 288 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,360 some little pretty paper and it's really pretty and you're 289 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:48,800 like, oh, and you take out the little papers, but there's 290 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,680 nothing really you can do with that paper again. 291 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,880 So a lot of these packaging related APR laws are designed to 292 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:02,600 assess how our recycling infrastructure and landfill 293 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:10,640 infrastructure is designed and to be able to figure out ways to 294 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,800 recycle or manage those materials better, noting that 295 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,560 they're one time likely or building up recycling 296 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,720 infrastructure. So back to the core of why these 297 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,000 laws are here, at least the packaging related ones. 298 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,920 We could talk about other CPR concepts because this goes ways 299 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,040 bigger than that into creating the circular economy you're 300 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:38,320 talking about with respect to packaging behind all state laws. 301 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,920 If you get to the core of them, they're trying to assess what 302 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,200 are the needs for our infrastructure to improve, to be 303 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,160 able to recycle and to keep things going back in into the 304 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,600 system. And so these fees that are 305 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:58,320 getting assessed are basically designed to, I should say, they 306 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,480 are supposed to be signed to understand what a specific state 307 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,760 needs to address that particular material. 308 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:12,440 And at its core, if we think about it in really simple terms, 309 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,480 you know it, I'm just using a random material. 310 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,960 If it's determined that 80% of the state's recycling facilities 311 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:29,680 can't handle this particular type of material, then the goal 312 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,160 would be that these fees are designed to collect more money 313 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,040 for those types of materials. So then that money can then go 314 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:44,040 into the state and into the local municipalities to build 315 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,040 their capacity to handle it. And that's really where these 316 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,440 fees are designed to go. There's a lot of there's a lot 317 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,320 of questions about what will happen once the skis are 318 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,600 collected and if it'll really work, but that's at the floor of 319 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,360 the packaging related APR. And that that kind of makes 320 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:05,200 sense because to to kind of really manage the whole life 321 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,480 cycle of a small package that would be just too onerous. 322 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,640 I could imagine. I like the concept of creating 323 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,040 the packaging to be more sustainably I guess more 324 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,560 recyclable essentially and less make it strip the thing down to 325 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,440 its bare bones. So it's simple, it's easy. 326 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,880 It's it's going to have AI. Guess it's the best way to 327 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,560 recycle the product when when it does get recycled, help 328 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,120 companies get there because yeah, we don't need a lot of 329 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,560 single use plastics floating around just because you keep 330 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,880 adding more wrappers or extra material to a product. 331 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,760 It's a significant challenge for companies because they'll create 332 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,040 products and they'll create packaging that is technically 333 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,440 recyclable. But then if the state doesn't 334 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,000 have the appropriate infrastructure, there have been 335 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,960 lawsuits where if somebody says my material is recyclable, but 336 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,760 then it's a link, there's a state that actually can't 337 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,640 recycle it. Then they should get an 338 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,680 exemption. Instead, they're getting sued 339 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,600 for making the claim that their material is recyclable. 340 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,360 It can't actually be recycled. So there's a there's a lot of 341 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:17,520 moving pieces and why that's why it also really matters for 342 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:18,680 companies. Even though it can be 343 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,120 frustrating upfront, I think to have these new fees, I think the 344 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,240 vision is ultimately that it creates a system that will be 345 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,840 that will minimize those greenwashing risks, will 346 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,240 increase the recyclability. But we've got a gap to fill, and 347 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,280 states are using EPR as one of their tools to try to close that 348 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,960 gap. There's a lot of questions about 349 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,920 whether or not it's the right solution. 350 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,160 Yeah, I think some of the easier ones you could think of for EPR 351 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,680 would be like say tires, you buy tires, you go get a new tire and 352 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,960 that tire goes to back to the manufacturer's system. 353 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,320 That'd be a pretty, I think it's simpler, more an easier way to 354 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,040 to have a closed loop type EPR. But I'm sure there's other 355 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,040 products but. Hello ET Nation, I want to thank 356 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,560 you for listening to the podcast. 357 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,520 If you're enjoying the interviews we bring you, 358 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,840 consider supporting the program by visiting my website at 359 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,800 seankgrady.com and buy me a cup of coffee. 360 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,640 Proceeds will go towards helping me continue producing timely 361 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,360 content, content and offset production costs. 362 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,600 I'd also like to take a moment and recognize a few of our 363 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,280 sponsors of the show who have been amazing partners and our ET 364 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,120 Nation legends. 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Whether you're a generator 398 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,840 looking for better options or a service provider seeking greater 399 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,280 efficiency, Wastelink has you covered. 400 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,280 If you're ready to take control of your waste management 401 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,800 processes and optimize your business, visit wastelink.com to 402 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,360 schedule a demo today. I like the packaging scenario. 403 00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:51,680 I'm sure there's some challenges there. 404 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,520 And I could imagine for the company who makes a product and 405 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,200 it's recyclable in say New York. And then over there in New 406 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,560 Jersey, it's not because they don't have the infrastructure 407 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,640 over there, but that's pretty close. 408 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:03,920 They could ship it to New York pretty close. 409 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,440 But anyways, if they make the one package and then it's 410 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,360 doesn't meet every state's requirements. 411 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,560 So that that does sound like a pretty challenging prospect. 412 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,760 And I, I love that we're talking about more than packaging 413 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:22,640 because there have been higher EPR laws, OK? 414 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,200 Connecticut passed one in 2023. Yeah. 415 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,840 New York State introduced a bill mandating tire collection. 416 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,200 And so there's beyond packaging many other industries, there's 417 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,760 long standing battery EPR. Oh yeah. 418 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,120 It's out there. There's a lot going on in the 419 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,360 space. What's your thoughts here? 420 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,240 How might EPR regulations for innovation and material science, 421 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,960 recycling technologies and sustainable product development? 422 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,200 And it seems to me this whole EPR initiative really going to 423 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,840 initiate the advancement of all these new circular economy 424 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,760 technologies and things. I would think it just. 425 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,720 Oh, and absolutely, it's already happening. 426 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,360 There's like in tandem of the with these laws are multiple 427 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,960 packaging engineers and scientists that are working 428 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,880 their tail off to figure out how they can make internal changes 429 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,720 outside of the law to make their products have less of an impact 430 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,480 on the environment. So really, I think consumers 431 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,000 have shown companies that this is a priority to them and 432 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,240 companies respond to laws, but they really do respond to their 433 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,560 consumers. All right. 434 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,160 So there's amazing steps being taken. 435 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,240 I also think for the companies that don't have the 436 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,320 infrastructure, like the larger sustainability teams, the 437 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:49,560 packaging engineers, they're, I believe, more likely to be 438 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,440 financially impacted by this because they're just smaller in 439 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,160 general. And this is a whole new 440 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,200 compliance requirements on them that they likely didn't plan 441 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,080 for, which I think could trigger them to say, all right, rather 442 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,000 than deal with this, let's just change our packaging that we 443 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,160 have. We don't have the overhead to 444 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,720 even make a room for the annual fees for. 445 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,240 We've got to figure this out. I So, yeah, there are some 446 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,920 exemptions for certain businesses, but in some 447 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,120 instances you're like, OK, does that what happens if all 50 448 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,640 states have one of these laws and this is how much money 449 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,120 they're charging? But we haven't seen that just 450 00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,840 yet. But it's there's a lot of talk 451 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,200 about whether this is one of those moments where a federal 452 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,000 solution is the right approach. Yeah, I was just going to go 453 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,280 there. I was like, OK, do we have 454 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,840 federal DPR laws across all 50 states that have to be adhered 455 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,120 to or is it really a state by state approach right now? 456 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,200 And man, that's a whole interesting prospect in the 457 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,360 census, all the environmental regulations that we're already 458 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,200 dealing with that you've got federal and then you got to 459 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,840 understand the nuances of the state laws associated with the 460 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,960 federal. And that's fine, I guess for the 461 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,920 most part. But is that is it mostly being 462 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,160 led by state at this point? Yeah, absolutely. 463 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,480 Although there's been a lot of legislative activity related to 464 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,680 this, related to packaging, related to recycling, relating 465 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,720 to plastic pollution. At one point in time, I had a 466 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,400 list of every single legislative activity that's gone forward in 467 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,680 the last eight years or so. But yeah, I think there there's 468 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,160 a law called the Break Free from Plastic Pollution Act that I 469 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,640 believe has an EPR concept related to beverage containers 470 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,520 and some plastic products. We've in the last 471 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,880 administration, there was a letter that went out to, I 472 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,000 believe it was to most agencies. But in essence the core of 473 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,880 letter was basically, hey, when there's federal procurement 474 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,800 involved, we don't want to use single use plastics. 475 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,840 There was there were some Senate hearings last March. 476 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,200 The FTC has been evaluating the Green Guides for multiple years. 477 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,000 So I think and there have been multiple recycling 478 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:26,520 infrastructure bills, the issue and what makes this a very 479 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,240 interesting place to work as an attorney as there's so many 480 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,640 cross jurisdictional issues between funking between 481 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,040 implementation of the actual infrastructure, between 482 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,040 enforcement. So what's the right way to do 483 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,280 this? I think we can step back at this 484 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,400 moment in time already with lessons learned from the roll 485 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,800 out of Oregon's, Colorado's registration and reporting 486 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,520 requirements with California's and Minnesota's next in line to 487 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,960 see what would the benefits be if there was something at a 488 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,920 federal level. Some of the benefits to having 489 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,880 this at the state level is it's forcing the process or whenever 490 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,120 you have a federal law like this, it would take immense 491 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:21,240 studies, data collection, and to get it right to really create 492 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,800 something that was equitable and effective. 493 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,480 So I do think that at some point in time we'll hit a tipping 494 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,720 point within the number of states that have enacted EPR 495 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,760 laws where they'll be more and more pressure at the federal 496 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,880 level for some sort of synthesizing to occur. 497 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,360 Will it get into the nitty gritty of the day-to-day? 498 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,840 I don't know. Will it create some minimum 499 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,360 recycling standards? I worked on some legislation 500 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,000 that proposed that that was issued last fall, that some 501 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,160 recycling standards would be very helpful to create, let's 502 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:06,200 call like the foundational web that then all other waste 503 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,000 management and recycling issues could be managed through. 504 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,040 So I don't know, We'll see if there's a laughing downhill. 505 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,200 I when I think about a nationwide approach to some of 506 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,280 this, it seems that there is probably some low hanging fruit 507 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,400 type products that are no brainers. 508 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,520 That would be like, yeah, and we just mentioned tires. 509 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,000 Everybody has that problem in every single state. 510 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,960 Why wouldn't that be an easy one to say? 511 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,120 You know what, there's one. How about white goods? 512 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,560 Every refrigerator, washer and dryer, anything like like that. 513 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,360 All some like also electronics. Those would be, to my mind, the 514 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:55,000 easiest ones to do a nationwide EPR where companies have to put 515 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,840 together some more sophisticated infrastructure. 516 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,280 Not that it's not already there because there's a lot going on 517 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,120 in the space, but there needs to be more, right? 518 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,560 It'd be it'd be more collection systems and locations, but to me 519 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,600 that would be easy from a nationwide perspective. 520 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,440 The rest of the packaging I think would be a little more 521 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,160 probably state by state, but those would be a big ones. 522 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,520 I don't know how many states already have tire EPR laws have 523 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,480 come ahead, but I'm pretty sure that there are already OK. 524 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,720 If I were to pick up material to start with, it would be 525 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,400 electronics because I'm aware of at least 25 states that have 526 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,440 electronic, you know, CPR related laws. 527 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,200 So there's already infrastructure companies are 528 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,560 already supposed to be doing this. 529 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:54,160 So why not turn create something that again creates the minimum 530 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,240 standards. And that's one of the 531 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,040 interesting things about RECRA, the Resource Conservation and 532 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,000 Recovery Act, which is real. Our current cradle to grave law 533 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:12,320 in 1976 states are still generally taking over a majority 534 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,880 of the implementation of Rick Rickrit has been amended, I 535 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,640 think it four times. 1986, you got a few? 536 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:28,280 Yeah, there's a few there. Have been more regulation, more 537 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,440 revisions to the regulations, but. 538 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,960 I think hasn't changed that dramatically from its initial 539 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:41,240 implementation, so. One of my thoughts here is let's 540 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,840 go a little bit bigger than EPR Ricro, in my opinion, needs to 541 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,560 be amended, needs to be rehauled because again, if we want to 542 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,840 create a system that is circular in the United States, when our 543 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,400 waste system, our waste lot, and I don't know, in the preamble it 544 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,400 says of I'm actually going to say what the preamble says. 545 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,920 What I will say is that in every Ricker law class, I can say for 546 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,040 sure because I would, I got to take my Ricker class with 547 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,840 Jeffrey Miller who helped write the law at Peace Law school. 548 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,280 The first thing anyone learns about Ricker is that it's 549 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,040 cradle, the grief it's getting to end, it's completion 550 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,120 generation through disposal. So if we don't want that 551 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,280 disposal piece to be the main construct in the way we think 552 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,760 about it. Amend that component of the 553 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,840 record. I mean everything else is 554 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,960 regulatory compliance with hazardous waste characteristic 555 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,840 compliance of the reporting, but make more of the emphasis on the 556 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,520 the recycling infrastructure closed loop type scenarios. 557 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,280 That's good. There's extensive recycling 558 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,760 related exemptions I think are just the start. 559 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,880 Universal waste is great. You've got the whole, you've got 560 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,120 everything and just not everything, but you have a lot 561 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,960 in the universal waste rules that are everyday common main 562 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,040 products that we all use, electronics, batteries, all 563 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,080 kinds of paints, sometimes in certain states. 564 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,960 There's those all kinds of aspects of universal waste and 565 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,920 there is infrastructure being built and there are major 566 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,880 companies doing it. Like I, I'm a very familiar with 567 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,000 several lamp recycling, the electronic recycling, obviously 568 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,240 solvent recycling. There's a lot of their plastic 569 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,840 there's, it's all there cardboard, there's, it's, it's 570 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,840 there. Maybe there's got to be a better 571 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,680 way of tracking how those manufacturers are, how much 572 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,120 they're producing and then somehow figuring out how much is 573 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,480 going to get returned. I think there is that that once 574 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,920 it leaves the play their manufacturing site, how do they 575 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,000 track the recyclability of that product at some point I. 576 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,680 I think well coming back to one of the first things that we were 577 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,880 talking about which is like the supply chain from the. 578 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,720 So what has made a Recra an effective system for a long time 579 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,080 is that it in required has required tracking is created a 580 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,640 process that then can be implemented. 581 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,080 A lot of what we do is it in the hazardous waste industry and 582 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:15,320 that's really one of my main focus areas is we're tracking 583 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,400 how it moves through trucking, We're tracking where it was 584 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,840 made, what facility and. When it was generated, how long 585 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,760 it's been on site? And then our circle lawsuits 586 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,360 related to landfilling end up looking at those hazardous waste 587 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,800 manifests. OK, this is, these are the 588 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,400 parties that are responsible because they drop it off here, 589 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,120 they moved it here. The whole system is built for 590 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:47,800 the way we managed materials, but we haven't paused to create 591 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,280 that type of more systematic recycling infrastructure and 592 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,400 tracking process. There's again extensive 593 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,320 exemptions, but they're complicated. 594 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,040 We've got certain materials that are exempt from the definition 595 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,920 of solid waste altogether. Then we have other materials 596 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,920 that are exempt from the definition of hazardous waste if 597 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:14,960 they're managed a certain way. And anyway, so I think there 598 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,240 could be a simplification of that whole. 599 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,800 It'll be 1 area of the federal regulations that could help 600 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,320 reduce or improve the an EPR type circular economy component 601 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,360 for sure. I still feel like we're missing 602 00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:33,920 the products that are manufactured, that are shipped 603 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,600 out to consumers that they won't ever be able to manage 604 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,720 themselves, the company themselves technically again, 605 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,760 they're just going to hope for the best that society recycles 606 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,440 the products better, more effectively. 607 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,400 And I think that's, I think there's the big disconnect or at 608 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,760 least the challenge for EPR in a lot of areas. 609 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,400 Plus we come up with some amazing technology that can sort 610 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,160 materials that are going into all of these facilities that can 611 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,960 better weigh and manage all of the materials. 612 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,760 I I think they're. You're spot on. 613 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,560 And there are new technologies coming online. 614 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,960 There are with AI and visual recognition and processing and 615 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,880 there is some huge improvements that are being made in that 616 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,920 area. They are costly to get them 617 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,680 implemented at a lot of these locations. 618 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,520 So it's going to take time, I think before a lot of these 619 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,720 companies are really in a position to where I guess the 620 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,080 technology and the equipment becomes very affordable and 621 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,400 standardized. But it's going to be a, it's 622 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,760 going to take some time. But I think that there's good 623 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,000 signs that's already really available now, but not at the 624 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,600 scale that needs to be. Agree, And the other component 625 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,120 besides. OK, obviously. 626 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,800 Can someone let me rewrite Ricker one day? 627 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,720 I'd love to work on it. Yeah, cut to my Bork dream. 628 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,680 I'll be honest with you, but OK. It does need to know it needs an 629 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:05,720 overhaul. I'm with you. 630 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:08,320 It's, it's a challenge. There's some of the regulation 631 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,880 or the requirements, just you scratch your head and so come 632 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,120 on, really. But they were written this in 633 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,400 76. That's a different world. 634 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,920 And this was their first attempt at a major regulation that was 635 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,880 They were tired of seeing companies just dump their stuff 636 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,360 in the back 40 like they did a Love canal. 637 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,280 That's why. I think it's an amazing law, 638 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,600 I'll say that. I also think critical to this 639 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,160 discussion is the creation of markets. 640 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,800 Yeah. How do we bring all of this 641 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,040 online? Again, EPR is a tool. 642 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,880 It creates a fee structure that'll put more money into the 643 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,200 state's hands to work on and perhaps buy some of that 644 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,000 infrastructure and some of that technology. 645 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,480 You're talking about a dream world. 646 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:59,800 Now, once that clean material is created, what And what once we 647 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,560 actually create it and we keep it out of landfills, what 648 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,040 happens next? Who's going to take that 649 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,440 material? Who's going to clean it? 650 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,760 Who's going to process it? And then there's many disputes 651 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,800 about what's the proper way of handling and processing 652 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,680 recyclable material to have a minimal environmental impact. 653 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,720 So. I think that's another critical 654 00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:24,800 component of the discussion is and it's another think about 655 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,920 America as a free market society. 656 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:33,200 If we create a market for it, it's very for the waste to be 657 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,760 handled. Like, for example, China was a 658 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,560 market, they made money. Yeah, totally. 659 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,000 They totally made money on it and they were just getting 660 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,920 inundated by the world basically because they were just kept 661 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,320 sending stuff to them. The. 662 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,760 Biggest issue in I would say, OK, I keep saying the biggest 663 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,320 issue, one of the biggest issues of in of all of this is also the 664 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:01,600 contamination of materials. The the complexity of handling 665 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,000 material waste streams even at your home, right? 666 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,080 Some foods I'm thinking peanut butter, right? 667 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,760 Like how hard is it to get your peanut butter consumer gleaning 668 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,800 WAP that you could actually be recyclable? 669 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,560 Yeah, there's that. And you're right. 670 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,840 Now I'm aware of a few firms, Republics one, they just opened 671 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,200 up a blue polymer, couple blue polymer facilities, one in 672 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,440 Indianapolis where I reside, and they've got one in Phoenix and I 673 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:27,440 think they just opened a new one. 674 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,200 I'm not sure where, but they heard that they've come up with 675 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,240 a way to actually clean and process some of the plastic that 676 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:37,240 is dirty that's so that they can effectively clean it, process 677 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,840 it, and then make it a product for resale in the market. 678 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,400 And that's great. So strides are being made in 679 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,160 certain areas of the business under that and I think that's 680 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,400 real important. I've got a big panel discussion 681 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,760 coming up in a couple weeks in Louisville at the EHS Hazmat 682 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,640 Summit, where I'm leading a circular economy conversation 683 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,520 with leaders from Republic, leaders from ERI, which is 684 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,240 Electronic Recycling International, and also with a 685 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,520 company called Pre Tread. And Pre Tread is a company that 686 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,160 recycles tires and makes Rd. barriers out of it. 687 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,280 The big concrete ones, you see, instead of using that, they're 688 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,320 making them out of recycled tires. 689 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,240 And it's a great product because the durability of them, the 690 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:18,720 longevity of them and it's a reused product and out to go on 691 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,280 or dig up the earth. They can just they've already 692 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,600 done it. So it's more sustainable. 693 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,320 And we're talking about that. The whole circular economy, 694 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,160 infrastructure being built and growing it and dealing with 695 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,120 these challenges of that a lot of companies are facing either 696 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,080 with EPR or just because the companies want to deal with it 697 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,600 because it's the right thing to do from a sustainability 698 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,720 perspective. Reducing carbon footprint could 699 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,920 all that good stuff, right. So that's a lot of it. 700 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,600 When you when do you anticipate APR compliance will increase 701 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,360 prices on consumers and how can companies manage then offset 702 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:58,640 this impact? Money is going to have to come 703 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,040 somewhere from somewhere, right? So are they going to? 704 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,840 That's a business decision. I don't know if companies will 705 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:14,760 put that on their consumers or take the hit, but you know, most 706 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,440 companies are generally. Passing down the cost. 707 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,360 Yeah, I'm seeking to increase revenue. 708 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,760 But the other thing is the way I like to think about it is this 709 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,240 is where consumers and companies can show leadership in general. 710 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:37,920 It helps if it's not coming through this EPR fee that's 711 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,840 assigned to we're going to be assigned based on the weight of 712 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,120 packaging used by producers. It would have to come through 713 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,560 taxes anyway if we were to work through and enhance and increase 714 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:56,000 the infrastructure. So I don't see a world where we 715 00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:03,840 all don't have to invest in infrastructure, all of us. 716 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,560 Yeah, yeah. Everybody's going to have to 717 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,600 contribute to the process to make this work. 718 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,040 I think the intent of the law was for producers to hold that 719 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,160 back more. But in essence, by doing that, 720 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,200 it does then say to conforms, you know what, I'm going to 721 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,200 choose the companies that are producing as little with 722 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:28,000 packaging material as possible. Value purchasing is what I call 723 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,960 that. And so then it does also 724 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,880 potentially shift consumer decisions, which ships market 725 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,480 decisions, which ships fees and in all of it. 726 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:45,280 So is that a better approach than taxes and having everyone 727 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,320 pay into the states? I don't know. 728 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,640 I think it should be a consumer based approach in my opinion. 729 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,880 If you want to buy the products and that you're willing to pay 730 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,560 for it, then great. But if you don't buy those 731 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,680 products then you probably wouldn't be fair. 732 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,840 You get to pay into it if you're not buying that product. 733 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,760 So seems like it'd be best if it's based on the actual 734 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,360 products you're buying because then it's directly related to 735 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,000 the process and the consumer product instead of just a flat 736 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,760 fee that everyone has to pay. I don't know like at least 737 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:19,680 that's my thoughts. I. 738 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,760 Think about it with a slightly different product base and 739 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,280 chemical issue, but really similar and connected to my 740 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,440 larger practice on just product stewardship and chemical 741 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,400 management. Excuse me? 742 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:40,560 When we look at the history and the way PFOS bands have rolled 743 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,880 out, just for a second, we're not going to go there. 744 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,120 I know it's not the purpose of the conversation thing. 745 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,520 Wait, go for it, go for it because unfortunately, consumers 746 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,200 are having to take the brunt of it. 747 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,400 In many ways, it's also how consumers are saying are 748 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,640 realizing and starting to actually think about what 749 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,680 they're consuming, right? They're like, Oh my goodness, I 750 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,280 didn't even think that this was something that I should be 751 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,480 paying attention to. And so their consumers, even 752 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,120 before the bans began, started saying, OK, we're not going to 753 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,920 buy those non stick pans anymore. 754 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,640 Get rid of your non stick pans, everybody. 755 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,800 And so then what happened? A whole and a whole new industry 756 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,600 became to be we've got a whole new cookware industry overnight 757 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,760 of companies that are competing to produce the best nonstick pan 758 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,880 that. That's an pee Foss pan. 759 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,680 And that's a whole another question of which pee Foss 760 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,640 compounds, but we'll just say how do we create a nonstick 761 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,800 material that has the lowest risk chemical exposure? 762 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,280 Sure, absolutely. And that makes sense. 763 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,280 I think from that part or that perspective, the consumer, I 764 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,680 think the biggest challenge though right now is all the 765 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,960 damage that's already been done by P5 for consumers having to 766 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,720 pay that. They're like, we didn't even 767 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,160 deal with that stuff and they're being exposed and have to pay 768 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,480 for water treatment that they didn't agree to. 769 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,120 So yeah, that's the biggest challenge I see with a lot of 770 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,320 unfairness in the process right now, and there's that. 771 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,440 If we get back to EPR though, I think that there's a lot that 772 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,280 can be done and I think there is a lot of onus on individuals 773 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,200 just to be better recyclers individually. 774 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,680 Everyone just does it a little bit and takes the initiative to 775 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,600 recycle more and reduce their water consumption and turn those 776 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,520 lights off and things like that. Collectively, it'll be a big 777 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,480 impact. And so I think that's a big 778 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,800 thing. But how might EPR improve the 779 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,160 quality and convenience of recycling and waste collection 780 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,320 systems for everyday consumers? What? 781 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,680 How do you see this really making it easier for them? 782 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,320 I'll just say to be determined on that one, but that's another 783 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,360 component of what these, the fees that are being collected 784 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,960 are intended to support. Coming off of Epas. 785 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:03,800 It was either 20, sometime between 2018 and 2020, EPA put 786 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,960 out a report or it outlined the critical issues for recycling in 787 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,680 the United States and what was blocking us from getting to a 788 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:18,400 recycling rate of 50%. And the number one issue in 789 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,440 essence was besides the fact that every state law and 790 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,240 municipal jurisdiction just does it differently and handles it 791 00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:29,720 differently, was that it's tough for consumers to actually know 792 00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:33,400 what's right. I've spoken to many people who 793 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,240 are like, I just moved to a new location and and I used to be 794 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,200 able to recycle glass, but now I can't recycle glass. 795 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,520 I can recycle glass, but not from my actual home. 796 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:51,640 I have to stop 10 miles away process into my life to do that. 797 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,640 And I want to do that, but when am I going to do that? 798 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,320 And I know I'll get to it eventually. 799 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,920 And all of a sudden six months pass and you're finally like 800 00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:02,360 settled enough into your new location to think about your 801 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:07,000 refuse. So I think, I think that there's 802 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,480 more to to be, I'll just say more to be determined here, more 803 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:15,400 to be built out. But the goal is we move in that 804 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,320 direction. What we can say is there's a ton 805 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,240 of data out there about recycling in general, which 806 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,760 gives us the ability to say where are the areas in the 807 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,960 country where the least recycling is occurring. 808 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,800 And my perspective if I was in charge would be to start there. 809 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,920 If we can build capacity in the places where we have a recycling 810 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:43,440 rate below even 20%, education, better infrastructure for pick 811 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,560 up and drop off which would require more jobs, that would be 812 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,480 a great place to start. Yeah, I think the biggest 813 00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:55,840 opportunity is the education side of the House. 814 00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,960 It's educating constantly at a very young age. 815 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,520 School, kindergarten, even at kindergarten started there. 816 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,760 There should be back in the day. And we grew up as kids, at least 817 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,360 when I grew up as kids, we had cartoons that talked about the 818 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,240 bill and how that how bills are created in Congress. 819 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,080 And they always had a constant education process going where 820 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,680 you were learning about government and you were learning 821 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,600 about how to spell and read and write and all this and stuff. 822 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:30,040 We need to have a dedicated, consistent educational process 823 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,040 for recycling in our country. And it shouldn't be just state 824 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,960 to state. It should be, I think federally, 825 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,760 but also state to state. I was just in Paris a couple 826 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,440 weeks ago and I'm in the subway and there's these huge recycling 827 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,560 pictures on the subway walls and it's like, it was a can and it 828 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,200 had wings on the can. It says, hey, this can doesn't 829 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,800 get recycled by itself. Basically saying it takes, you 830 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,800 have to actually put it in the trash can. 831 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,320 And it talks about it's the, it's the we're trying to 832 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,000 accomplish improving sustainability and recycling and 833 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,560 things like that. Or in another ad was, hey, let's 834 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,560 reuse these products. Let's fix them up, rehab them 835 00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,640 and reuse them. And so there's all these like 836 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,080 little new, I guess advertising and it's subliminal because 837 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,120 after a while you don't even recognize it, but it's sitting 838 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,240 there and if you just look up, you see it's there. 839 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:24,880 And it seems like an educational process for EPR systems, 840 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,440 recycling process. That's what we need to do, those 841 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,920 schemes and everything. I don't see us doing enough of 842 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,160 that. And, and in that federal law, I 843 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,040 mentioned to you that was one of the critical components of the 844 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,440 recycling standards, a study process that was built in at the 845 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,880 federal level of what can we do to best educate and close these 846 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,120 gaps. And that will take some time to 847 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,040 build out anything that becomes systematic. 848 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,920 But I agree with you that more education is better, but really 849 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:03,400 also comes down to general culture. 850 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,840 Some of these laws, I think, I don't know if they'll shift 851 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:14,600 culture immediately, but the more that circular options are 852 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,040 available at the market level that I think the more we'll see 853 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,960 cultural shifts. So that to me comes back to what 854 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:30,880 are the barriers to making recycling a profitable exercise? 855 00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:36,360 And that's where I want to focus personally, because that I 856 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,160 believe can influence cultures in the most organic way aligned 857 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:42,960 with how our culture already works. 858 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,680 We like a we really do Americans, right? 859 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,920 If we how can we make trendy? Yeah, make it trendy. 860 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:51,800 Make it. Easy. 861 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,480 Just make it easy. A lot of cities they don't have 862 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,680 curbside recycling, They just have normal trash pickup, Make 863 00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,200 it, make, add those things, add those stream pickups. 864 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,920 So that way people are more incentivized to do that. 865 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,080 It may take a couple dollars off their their trash bill if 866 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,320 they're recycling more, something you come up with, 867 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,920 something that just helps them be more incentivized. 868 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:19,000 I'm even having this idea right now, which would be our top 869 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,800 stars and our rock stars and our movie stars are very persuasive. 870 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:30,200 So if any of you are listening. Come on, help us out. 871 00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:32,880 Help us out. Promote these recycling efforts, 872 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,240 do some documentaries and stuff like that. 873 00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,600 Help us figure out ways to make this more effective. 874 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,120 When Beyoncé recycles, it's amazing, right? 875 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,720 We just, whatever. Let's just have we want to see 876 00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:47,560 Beyoncé recycling. There you go, Beyoncé can 877 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,360 recycle, get all the big stars recycling. 878 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,920 There are a lot of really great stories to be told though. 879 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,520 A lot of big events are really focused on recycling at the at 880 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,440 their facilities, so they can basically have a better positive 881 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,400 impact. I was just at a live golf outing 882 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,480 recently and the recycling and trash receptacles are right 883 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,400 there next to each other and it's clearly marked. 884 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,960 Everybody is dropping their bottles and cans in the right 885 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,160 recycling section. They're putting their trash 886 00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,240 waste in the trash. And then for of course, we've 887 00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:23,800 got the guys pulling around and picking up the full bags and 888 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,320 replenishing the. It was really good to see how 889 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,920 effective that some of these big events are being managed from a 890 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,080 sustainability perspective on the waste management. 891 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,320 It's great. And I think those stories don't 892 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,640 get told enough, like they don't get shared with everyday people. 893 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:43,480 Here's the impact that you spectators had at this event, 894 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,120 right? You contributed to recycling 895 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,320 this much. That's those are the stories I 896 00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,560 think that are not getting told. And you can you could go to the 897 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,960 NFL and be go down the line all these I think big leagues and 898 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,440 stuff like that are doing these type of things, but we're not 899 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,280 talking about it enough. We need to, yeah. 900 00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:05,520 Even if there was like a or it's half time and right before the 901 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,840 end of the game. Hey, on your way out. 902 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,600 Don't forget to drop off your empty container here I mean. 903 00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:17,880 I just have every event had a like resource manager, usher who 904 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,000 was like designed to pump you up or something. 905 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,320 Yeah, right. This way to the most exciting, 906 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,800 you know, place at the stadium. Yeah, the recycling center. 907 00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:31,760 Exactly. No, that's great. 908 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,120 I love our conversation, Megan. This has been exciting, 909 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,800 educational for the listeners as well. 910 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,080 I really appreciate you coming on the show. 911 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,880 I know we could spend probably another 30 minutes easily 912 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,200 talking about EPR concepts and some challenges, but I think 913 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,360 we've covered the topic pretty well as far as some of the 914 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,560 issues that are out there. There's more to be dived into, 915 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,880 I'm sure, and explored. I really appreciate all the work 916 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,520 you're doing there at your firm, just to keep up the good work at 917 00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,240 Holland Knight. Really appreciate that and thank 918 00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:02,760 you for coming on the show. Thanks so much for having me, it 919 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,560 was a pleasure. Thanks for listening and 920 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,880 watching the show. If you enjoyed the show then 921 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,600 please share it with your friends and Co workers on social 922 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,720 media and tell somebody in person. 923 00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:14,080 Thanks for being with us, ET Nation.