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Hi everyone. 
I'm Caroline. 

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Welcome back to the Translation 
podcast. 

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On today's episode, we're joined
by Ray Sunshine, a passionate 

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advocate, artist, educator and 
cancer survivor whose life 

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embodies resilience, creativity 
and transformation. 

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After a 2021 Stage 4 Hodgkin's 
lymphoma diagnosis, Ray's 

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relationship with healing and 
purpose deepened. 

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They channel that experience in 
advocacy, education and art 

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celebrates identity and 
survival. 

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I am who I am today because of 
the experiences that that I've 

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had, and cancer is one of them, 
and going through my queer 

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journey is one of them. 
Do I think I would be where I'm 

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at today if it didn't happen the
way that I did? 

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No. 
Like if all those other things 

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didn't happen, do I hate them? 
Absolutely. 

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Am I glad that I am who I am 
today? 

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Also yes. 
In this conversation, we explore

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how illness, creativity, and 
queerness converge, art becomes 

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a vessel for healing, and how 
transformation reshapes what it 

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means to lead, teach, and love. 
Oh my God. 

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Hi, Athena, welcome back. 
Thank you for being here. 

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It's good to be here. 
Yes. 

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And joining us, it's Kevin. 
Hi, Kevin. 

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Welcome back. 
Welcome back to the Trans 

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Narrative podcast. 
I was a little being on here. 

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Yes, thank you for being here. 
And Ray Sunshine. 

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Hi Ray, welcome to the trans 
narrative. 

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Hi, thanks for having me. 
Yes, it's so good to have you. 

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It's good. 
It's good to be here in the in 

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the in the show with everyone. 
Athena, thank you for being 

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here. 
Kevin, thank you so much for 

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being here. 
And Ray, thank you so much for 

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taking time to be with us today 
here on the Trans Narrative 

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Podcast. 
Well, welcome, Ray. 

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Thanks for coming on here. 
It's so nice to finally talk 

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with you. 
I know we've set this up a while

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ago and now we're we're finally 
doing it. 

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So our listeners are going to 
have a real treat. 

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So First off, Ray, why don't you
tell us like, your upbringing? 

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Like what? 
What was early life for Little 

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Ray Sunshine? 
I grew up in a household where I

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was the eldest daughter at the 
time. 

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I identified as a daughter and I
took care of my younger brother 

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and sister and my parents. 
Unfortunately, very racist and 

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very homophobic, so I did not 
understand that being queer or 

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trans was a possibility until 
later in life. 

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A lot of my life experiences 
were really raised around hetero

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normativity and that was what I 
was brought up with and what I 

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was raised with. 
And even though in high school I

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had queer feelings, I suppressed
them and I, I didn't want to 

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explore those because I didn't 
know what that could mean for me

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if I didn't marry, you know, a 
white Jewish man with a house 

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with a white picket fence and 
2.5 children and a golden 

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retriever and have that like, 
specific lifestyle that I was 

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told that I needed to live up 
to. 

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So we finally decided not to 
have a golden retriever. 

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What was that like for your? 
Parents, I will say that like, 

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even though I came out, I don't 
know, I don't know how old I was

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at that point when I actually 
decided to come out, but I came 

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out after I was already in a 
relationship with a CIS man. 

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And we did get married and have 
a child and have the house with 

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the white picket fence. 
We didn't have a golden 

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retriever, but we did have a cat
and I did and I did live up to 

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this experience that sort of my 
parents wanted were like I was 

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meeting a level of success in my
job that they were happy and I 

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was, you know, living up to 
their quote UN quote 

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expectations because I did marry
a white Jewish man and have the 

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white picket fence house with 
the we didn't have 2.5 kids. 

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We had one, but I think they 
would have liked 2.5 kids, to be

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honest. 
But we had the 1 and you know, I

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was, I was meeting most of their
goals for a good chunk of the 

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life until, until really, I got 
cancer. 

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And then things went went the 
other way. 

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Well, it was kind of a defining 
moment where you got to like, 

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pick up on your own story and 
tune into what maybe you'd been 

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missing out on. 
I mean, were there particular 

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books or people or moments that 
help shape that? 

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I books no, I'm I'm a ROM com 
reader so like I don't it's a 

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real thing. 
I I don't want to go anywhere 

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near it. 
I only love reading ROM coms, 

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specifically queer ROM coms and 
I'll do a shout out. 

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It's not queer, but queer 
adjacent. 

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Nat Cuddington is a great 
artist. 

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She's a friend of mine so I'll 
shout her out on this podcast. 

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Everybody should read her new 
book. 

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It's about Christmas and Santa 
but I I only read those kinds of

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books so that wasn't really 
specifically helpful. 

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But music really helped me 
during my cancer treatments, 

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specifically Taylor Swift. 
I, I know that sounds cheesy, 

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but like I've been a fan since I
was 13 years old and during, I, 

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I got diagnosed with stage 4 
Hodgkin's lymphoma during the 

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middle of COVID. 
And so I wasn't allowed to like 

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bring a bunch of people into the
hospital with me. 

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I wasn't allowed to have a bunch
of people at my house that we 

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were masking. 
Like I couldn't have people 

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around and like surround you 
like maybe other people who get 

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cancer have that experience. 
And so music was really my 

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outlet to sort of survive that, 
and that really helped me during

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that time. 
Well, it's music is so powerful 

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because I know it transforms so 
many people in so many different

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ways. 
And what was kind of like your 

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favorite beyond Taylor Swift, 
like artists at that time or 

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like, was there other stuff that
you were into? 

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I would say, I know this is so 
cliche, but like it was round 

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TikTok was around and I know 
Kevin, that's how you found me 

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was through my TikTok. 
Is that I, I leaned into TikTok 

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at that time to sort of make 
humor where I was, for lack of a

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better word, dying inside. 
And so a lot of my Tik Toks were

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like making jokes about like, 
you know, my cancer And like the

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one that has I think like 2 
million views or whatever it is,

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is like me joking about hot 
nurses and like being, you know,

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like it's, it's funny, haha. 
Like I'm in the hospital, but 

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yet there's hot nurses. 
This is exciting and so like a 

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lot of those sort of songs were 
like, you know, helping me get 

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through like the tick tock 
clips, whatever were were really

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helpful during that time. 
But also just like making tick 

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tocks was really helpful. 
Like it was a really good outlet

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for me to like be funny and then
also like get this support that 

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I didn't feel like I was getting
internally from my close circle 

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of people that I felt like I 
needed it from. 

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But getting that external 
validation at the time, well, I 

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don't suggest doing it all the 
time, was really helpful at the 

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time that I was going through 
cancer. 

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Well, and it can be educational 
too, I know like. 

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And what was drawing you to 
education? 

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What kind of what? 
What was the calling? 

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When I was a kid I wanted to be 
a rabbi so I've always been 

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interested in like Jewish 
education specifically but I 

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wanted to be a rabbi. 
And my ex-husband, we don't talk

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about him but he told me that I 
couldn't be a rabbi because I 

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was a female. 
Like ha ha jokes on him I'm not 

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a female anymore but I couldn't 
be a rabbi because I was a 

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female. 
And so I decided to switch 

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careers and go into something 
non education. 

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It was still a male dominated 
field. 

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It was engineering. 
But that didn't last very long. 

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I got to college and switched my
major to Jewish studies and I 

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ended up back in education. 
But I love working with kids. 

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I love making a difference. 
I love being an influence on 

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their life and helping shape who
they are in the future. 

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And that has shifted from Joshua
education to things about cancer

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to things about LGBTQA, plus 
things like whatever I feel like

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I can educate people on, I try 
to do in any capacity I haven't 

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like I've taught a little bit 
about my art. 

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I've done some art classes for, 
I do paper cutting. 

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I've done a little bit of that, 
but not as much as I would like.

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It's that ones a little harder 
to get into. 

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But I do try to teach in 
whatever capacity that I can. 

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Your lived experience informs 
you as an educator on exactly 

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what your strengths are and 
maybe even where your weaknesses

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are. 
Yeah, yes. 

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So looking back through through 
your early life leading to where

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you are now before you 
transition, what were any signs 

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that you had that you were trans
before you even had any language

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for it? 
I knew that I was clear when I 

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was younger. 
There's a lot of things that 

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like I can't talk about this 
podcast because they're a little

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bit too risque, but like things 
that I would do with friends, 

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like the PG things I can say out
loud are like taking showers 

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with friends that were female. 
Like I don't think normal 

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females do that. 
Like that's just not a thing 

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that you do and you're like with
your friends. 

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Things like that, that I was 
just like, oh, that might be a 

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sign, but I did have crushes on 
girls in high school and things 

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like that. 
But being trans like I didn't 

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even understand what trans meant
until I was in college and my 

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first recalling of meeting a 
trans person. 

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I'm actually dating them now, 
which is I think funny. 

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They transitioned 1615 ish years
ago, whatever. 

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And when they came out as trans 
I was actually really confused 

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and I was like, I don't know 
what that means. 

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And it was like really it was 
really confusing for me because 

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I was like, I don't understand. 
Like I thought you were a girl 

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and this is now you're not a 
girl. 

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And what does this mean for me 
and what I am attracted to? 

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And it was very confusing for me
at the time. 

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And we lost touch, not because 
of them being trans, just other 

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things. 
Well, the funny story is here's 

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what happened. 
So they walked me, we were in 

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college and they walked me to 
the dorm. 

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And then they tried to kiss me. 
And I was like, I can't, I'm 

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straight. 
And then they were broken. 

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And we sort of like went our 
separate ways because like, I 

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thought, I honestly thought I 
was straight and sis at the 

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time. 
And I was like, I can't do this.

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So there's no way. 
Like my parents won't approve. 

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Like I can't like even though 
deep down I knew that something 

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was different about me, like I, 
I couldn't do it. 

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And so we went our separate 
ways. 

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And then in 2021, yeah, 2021, I 
had started using she they 

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pronouns. 
And I very quickly realized at 

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some point that I wanted to be 
they she because I wanted people

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to like use they more than she. 
And once I decided to do they 

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she pronouns, which for me was 
different than she they 

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whatever, I got really upset 
when people wouldn't use the 

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day. 
And I was like, why are you 

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still she hurting me? 
I've said my pronouns are they 

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she? 
And I would get really upset 

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about it. 
And so then I was like, fine, 

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fuck it, we're going to do they.
Oh, I don't know if I can say 

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that. 
I'm so sorry. 

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OK, great. 
I don't know. 

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And so then I was like, my 
pronouns are going to be they 

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them. 
And then very quickly after 

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that, I realized that I hated my
dead name and it was so 

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feminine. 
And every time somebody used it,

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I cringed and said, so I think 
in the process of like a month, 

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I went from like she they to 
they, she to they, them to 

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switching my name legally 
because I was like, I can't do 

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this. 
This is ridiculous because at 

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work they're like, we can't do 
anything for you if your legal 

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name is still dead name. 
And I was like, well, then fine,

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we're going to fix that. 
And so I legally changed my name

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and then they had to change like
my e-mail and my this and my 

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that. 
And you know, I, I forced them 

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into calling me Ray because I 
can't, I can't do this anymore. 

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But like my so I'm, I'm 
polyamorous. 

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That's another part of my 
lifestyle. 

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But I, I have a boyfriend, the 
person who was the first person 

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that introduced me to like being
trans. 

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And then my partner Lux. 
They are also non binary gender 

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fluid trans. 
And I think being with them for 

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the last four years had helped 
me realize that I was trans, 

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right. 
Like I was able to like, see it 

225
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,280
in them and be like, oh, that's 
how I feel. 

226
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,000
Like that's there's a thing for 
that. 

227
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,720
There's a word for that. 
Like I had just been in this 

228
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,600
relationship with a CIS man for 
so long that like, I didn't know

229
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,680
what I didn't know about myself.
And so being with them helped me

230
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:33,880
realize like, myself and like, 
come to terms with like who I 

231
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,120
was as a person. 
And like there are pictures of 

232
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:41,080
Baby Ray with like short, like 
short haircuts and whatever. 

233
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:42,720
And like you could look at it 
and be like, and I played 

234
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,400
softball, which like could be 
queer or trans, I don't know. 

235
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:47,760
And like, you know, there are 
pictures of me that you're like,

236
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,800
that's a queer. 
But like, I don't know. 

237
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,760
Like I really didn't realize 
that I was queer until later in 

238
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,200
life and trans even later. 
And even still when I came out 

239
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,040
my this I think is funny. 
When I came out as non binary, I

240
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,040
didn't realize it was under the 
trans umbrella because I didn't 

241
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,720
know anything. 
And one of my coworkers who is 

242
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,600
also trans made me these like 
trans flags things like they're 

243
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,760
like stickers or like little 
coloring things that they made 

244
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,040
for me. 
And I was like, oh, he doesn't 

245
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,600
know that I'm non binary. 
He thinks I'm trans. 

246
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,520
Like I didn't, I didn't know 
that it was under the same 

247
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,200
umbrella. 
Like I still like, even though 

248
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,680
identifying as non binary, like 
I still didn't know. 

249
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,320
And so like there's, there's 
been a lot of education, a lot 

250
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,920
of like, I still don't know some
terminology and the, the LGBTQIA

251
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,960
plus plus as like there's a lot 
of like, I don't know all the 

252
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,480
flags, I don't know all the 
terminologies. 

253
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,120
There's still things that I get 
confused about. 

254
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,800
Like even as a queer person it's
still confusing for me. 

255
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,120
There's a dictionary for you as 
well, The Queen's English. 

256
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,120
Yeah. 
If you really want to learn all 

257
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,880
of it, it is in there. 
Well, there's like, there's 

258
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,640
like, there's an arrow and 
there's arrow laves and there's 

259
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,240
this and there's that, and 
there's all these different 

260
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,320
flags and there's, you know, and
I'm just like, it's a lot. 

261
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,480
You know. 
I can't remember all of them. 

262
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,920
I think that the best way to put
it is that you can call yourself

263
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,760
queer and then attach whatever 
other extra labels you want to 

264
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,080
it as they feel comfortable for 
you. 

265
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,960
And you, you know, don't have to
fall in love with labels that 

266
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,680
other people attach to you, 
right? 

267
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,200
If it doesn't feel like it's 
fitting, you can make your own. 

268
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,640
I really felt comfortable with 
pan for a really long time when 

269
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,280
I came out as queer or not 
queer. 

270
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,520
But when I came out as pan, I 
used pan because I was married 

271
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:38,200
to a sis straight man and I 
thought that I was pan because I

272
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,680
was in a relationship with this 
person who was a man. 

273
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,400
Once we divorced, I very quickly
realized that that relationship 

274
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,040
and all relationship with men, 
well sis men up until that point

275
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,280
was very heteronormative. 
I'm like, I didn't actually 

276
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,520
think that I was pansexual 
anymore. 

277
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,960
I think that like if there was a
word for like anyone without a 

278
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,200
penis, like that would be like 
girls, gays and the ace, but 

279
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,120
like not gay men, but like just 
not CIS men. 

280
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,120
If there's like a definition of 
like anyone but CIS men, that 

281
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,520
would be my definition, but 
there's not. 

282
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,520
So I use queer. 
I just I I would never date 

283
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,840
assist man ever again. 
I I took a very long time. 

284
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,840
I think there are some other 
terminologies that you can use 

285
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,560
for talking about like 
preferences of body types, or I 

286
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,400
think I've heard the word 
allosexual being used for people

287
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,160
who prefer transgender people as
a target for relationships, but 

288
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,040
that to me just kind of seems 
like a a chaser, right? 

289
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,760
Requires a. 
Security. 

290
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,120
If it's a tea for tea 
relationship, that makes sense, 

291
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:39,600
right? 
It is. 

292
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,720
Sensible, right? 
Because everybody's got that 

293
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,880
same structure of understanding 
that gender, you know, construct

294
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,400
and we. 
Yeah, but. 

295
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,040
Relationships like exclusively 
like if that's what I am, that's

296
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,000
what I am. 
And like both of my partners are

297
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,520
well, masculine presenting. 
And if either one of them had 

298
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,520
bottom surgery, like I would 
still be with them, right? 

299
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,560
Like so it's not that I'm like 
office, like oppositional to 

300
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,480
penis, but like something about 
CIS men. 

301
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,120
Like if there was a word right 
now for like, not CIS men, that 

302
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,960
would be. 
Not tuned in is kind of the. 

303
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,400
The word that I would get. 
From my relationships with CIS 

304
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,400
men, generally speaking, not 
tuned into themselves, they're 

305
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,680
kind of taught to numb 
themselves to their own feelings

306
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,520
and therefore not really 
communicate well. 

307
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,040
Yeah, and with my ex-husband, 
like when I came out as non 

308
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,880
binary, we had to have a 
conversation where he still said

309
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,040
he was a straight CIS man and I 
was like well I'm non binary. 

310
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,960
So if you find me attractive and
you were attractive to me as a 

311
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,680
person, then I am struggling 
with you saying that you're 

312
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,240
straight and CIS because at 
least straight because I'm not a

313
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,000
woman anymore. 
Like I don't identify as a 

314
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,800
woman. 
And so we had to have a very 

315
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,240
long conversation about like, 
what that meant for him if we 

316
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,000
were still married and what that
looked like for him. 

317
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,760
And eventually he decided to use
the word queer. 

318
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,040
And I don't know if he still 
identifies that way 'cause we've

319
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,200
been divorced for three years. 
But at the time it was a very, 

320
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:06,319
it was challenging like in, in 
terms of my identity to feel 

321
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,520
invalidated by my partner when 
my partner was like, well, I'm 

322
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,280
not, I'm, I'm straight and I'm 
like, well, I don't, I don't 

323
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,280
know how that makes me feel if 
I'm not a woman. 

324
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:16,880
Like, do you see me as a woman? 
Does that? 

325
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,480
Is that where we are? 
I don't know, Yeah. 

326
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,079
Well, I mean, you wind up with 
kind of some obligations because

327
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:26,920
of your gender at some points in
your life that you don't feel 

328
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,720
like you have to, that we don't 
feel are necessary, right? 

329
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,000
That we can kind of like walk 
away from these. 

330
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,960
Parts were never. 
Part of you, they were just 

331
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,880
expectations, right? 
Yeah. 

332
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,640
So walking away from some of 
those past experiences towards 

333
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,880
your new future, what 
foundational values or 

334
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,160
experiences do you feel like 
you're going to stay with you 

335
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,440
the longest? 
I think through all of this, I 

336
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,720
learned to live authentically 
and to just be OK with who I am 

337
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:07,640
as a person in the How do I 
phrase this without fucking 

338
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,760
myself over? 
I'm just going to say it In the 

339
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,800
space that I've worked in for a 
very long time of my life, in 

340
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,200
Jewish education, it is in most 
places. 

341
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,400
It's hard to be queer. 
It's hard to be Polly. 

342
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,200
It's hard to have these 
experiences and have it be 

343
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:31,200
respected and not a problem. 
And I've come to the point in my

344
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,760
life where I don't want to hide 
who I am as a person. 

345
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,320
I almost died from cancer and I 
told myself that I wasn't going 

346
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,160
to do that anymore and I wasn't 
going to hide myself. 

347
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,960
And I'm at a point in my life 
where I am authentically myself 

348
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,920
and I am publicly, authentically
myself. 

349
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,760
That's if that's a problem with 
a job or a person or people in 

350
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:59,600
my life, then I have learned to 
unfortunately take those people 

351
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,520
out of my life, move jobs. 
I moved cross country when it 

352
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,880
was a problem for my job. 
I moved from Maryland to 

353
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:11,920
Washington to be able to be out 
as Polly and it's hard. 

354
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,080
And like again, I'm not meeting 
that expectation of white picket

355
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,920
fet house and a dog and the 2.5 
children. 

356
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,080
Like I've got two partners and I
live in an apartment and I've 

357
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,480
got I do have a dog, but it's a 
Pitbull, you know, So like I'm 

358
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,080
not meeting that expectation. 
She's very cute. 

359
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,440
She's very needy. 
Shout out to Bear. 

360
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:38,000
But I just, I want to live 
authentically and like we only 

361
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,280
have one life and nobody's 
promised tomorrow. 

362
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,120
And I know that's so cliche to 
say, but like we're not right? 

363
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,600
Like I'm four years in, in 
remission. 

364
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,560
Next year I'll be able to say 
that I'm cancer free. 

365
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,160
I've got a whole year to wait. 
But I did just have my test 2 

366
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,960
weeks ago and I'm still in 
remission, which is great. 

367
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,440
I'm grateful for that. 
But it's not always promised. 

368
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,920
So, you know, something could 
pop up at any time, and I want 

369
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,960
to make sure that I'm not. 
In the closet, I want to make 

370
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,280
sure that I'm not hiding myself.
I want to make sure that I'm 

371
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,200
inspiring others. 
So like I sell this art that I 

372
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,040
make Ray sunshine design on 
Instagram if you want to go 

373
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,080
check me out. 
But I sell queer art and 

374
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,200
feminist art and body positivity
art. 

375
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,240
And I'm one of the only people I
know that sells trans top 

376
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,520
surgery greeting cards. 
They have a picture of like 

377
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,080
trans chest on them and it says,
I'm so glad you got that off 

378
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,680
your chest. 
They're really good. 

379
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,800
You should I'll buy them for 
your friends having top surgery.

380
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:42,600
But like, I try to make this art
to like inspire others and, you 

381
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,400
know, make a difference in the 
world and do what I can to do 

382
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,600
that. 
Well, and it was kind of just 

383
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,760
thinking, I was like, what was 
it like to come out later in 

384
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,960
life after being an ally as well
for so long? 

385
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:03,120
I've had so many coming outs 
like it and it's so funny 

386
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:05,400
because I think the last coming 
out I still wasn't like I still 

387
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,120
have another coming out to do. 
Like I just, I keep it keeps 

388
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:13,960
changing and like it went from 
being an ally to like, oh, I'm I

389
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,240
don't know if I ever use the 
term bisexual because I felt 

390
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,840
like bisexual was like not that 
it is. 

391
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,120
I'm clearly saying this is not, 
but people saw it when I was in 

392
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,360
college just like clout chasing 
and like it was like a trendy 

393
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,520
thing to do. 
And so I didn't like the term 

394
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,520
bisexual. 
So I stuck with pansexual and I 

395
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,800
was like I like hearts not parts
and it's the person not the 

396
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,240
whatever, whatever. 
So I came out as pansexual, but 

397
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,640
at that time I was already in a 
relationship with a sis man and 

398
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,720
I had like in college like 
gotten drunk and like made out 

399
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,160
with girls and things like that.
But like I was like, oh, that's 

400
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,640
just what everybody does when 
they're drunk. 

401
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,440
Like I'm not queer. 
Like and as I told you about my 

402
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,760
boyfriend, right, like he 
literally tried to kiss me and I

403
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,200
was like, I'm straight, don't 
kiss me. 

404
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,840
Like I wanted to kiss them, 
right? 

405
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,000
Like I wanted to kiss him. 
And so I came out first as 

406
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,640
pansexual, and that was when I 
was in the relationship with my 

407
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,480
ex-husband. 
And then eventually I came out 

408
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,520
as I think I said, gender queer.
And so I felt originally I was 

409
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,560
like, oh, that makes sense. 
I feel gender queer. 

410
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,320
I didn't like gender fluid for 
some reason, but I felt like 

411
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,720
gender queer worked. 
And so I was gender queer for a 

412
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,080
little bit. 
And then I realized what 

413
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,840
polyamory was because I was 
like, oh, this is weird that 

414
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,000
like, I have a husband and we 
were looking to like, maybe try 

415
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,440
some stuff out. 
And then I had like fell for 

416
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,840
this girl and I was like, oh, I 
have feelings for two people at 

417
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:40,800
once. 
That's weird. 

418
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,560
And then I was like, oh, there's
some work for that. 

419
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,040
So then realized what polyamory 
was. 

420
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,240
And I was like, oh, that's why. 
And like all these like light 

421
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,000
bulbs started clicking. 
So like, I came out again as 

422
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,680
like polyamorous. 
And I think it was three years 

423
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,000
ago now. 
I came out on publicly on 

424
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,080
Facebook the way to come out, 
but I came out of Facebook as 

425
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,720
polyamorous and trans non binary
and that I was in a relationship

426
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,560
with both my ex-husband and my 
current partner locks. 

427
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,160
And that caused me to go 2 years
non contact with my parents 

428
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,520
because they were like 
absolutely not infidelity and 

429
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,920
you're a horrible partner and 
you're not keeping your vows and

430
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,240
etcetera. 
And so we went into a contact 

431
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,560
for two years which was 
challenging. 

432
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,000
We're still mending that 
relationship. 

433
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,360
We're talking now. 
But like that coming out was 

434
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,080
hard. 
And then me and my ex-husband 

435
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,440
got divorced, which made me feel
at the time like, oh, now it 

436
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,000
seems like my Poly thing isn't 
real because I'm in one 

437
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,000
relationship again and whatever.
And I was nervous to like future

438
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,360
relationships publicly because 
like now everybody knows that 

439
00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,240
like, I've divorced my 
ex-husband. 

440
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,280
And now recently in the last few
months, I posted publicly my 

441
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,120
boyfriend. 
And so now people like I'm 

442
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,520
getting messages. 
People are like, you have a 

443
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:06,720
boyfriend. 
I'm confused. 

444
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,800
Aren't you with Lux? 
And I'm like, yes, I'm with both

445
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,840
of them. 
And they're like, oh, OK. 

446
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:13,720
And now it's like I have to like
explain myself to people again, 

447
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,720
which is also not really what I 
want to do, but like had to come

448
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:26,360
out again as Polly. 
And I think my parents were, I 

449
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,120
think they were happier with me 
being trans than me being Polly.

450
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,440
But they still don't get my 
pronouns right. 

451
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,000
I think that if I were a trans 
man and my pronouns were he him,

452
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,760
I think it would be easier for 
them. 

453
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:43,320
I think that they them thing 
just throws them off. 

454
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,000
I don't think right now at this 
point where they're at, I don't 

455
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,320
think that they do it on 
purpose. 

456
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,640
Originally I felt it a little 
bit, but they used my chosen 

457
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,160
name. 
Now they choose my my legal 

458
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,200
name. 
They called me Ray. 

459
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,280
I think they just still get 
hooked up on the they then 

460
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,480
because in their head it's 
plural and it's confusing and 

461
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:02,920
whatever. 
Like I think if I transition 

462
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,040
fully to a man, which I don't 
think I ever will, but you never

463
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,240
know. 
There's a pipeline, you know, I,

464
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,200
I think that they would be more 
comfortable with it. 

465
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,840
And like I, I pass as a man now.
Like you guys can't see me 

466
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,680
because you're not there. 
At least the podcast people 

467
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,720
can't see me. 
But like I've got a full beard 

468
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,440
and a mustache and like I'm 
binding right now. 

469
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,760
Like I look like a fucking man, 
which like was a problem during 

470
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,000
pride because then I felt like 
white is this man and I was 

471
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,400
like, oh God, I got to be more 
gay. 

472
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,040
Like, how do we get this up? 
I don't want to learn a white 

473
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,960
man, a white man. 
No, like a white man. 

474
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:46,200
And so yeah, it's a problem. 
And so like maybe as a trans 

475
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,720
mask person, this might be 
graphic, but like we refer to 

476
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,080
our body parts as different 
things. 

477
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,440
We're comfortable with different
things, right? 

478
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,520
Like chest versus boobs or 
whatever else. 

479
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,200
Body parts. 
And my body parts, I'm more 

480
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,280
comfortable with masculine body 
parts with my partners at this 

481
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,240
point. 
So like that makes me wonder 

482
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,480
like, you know, my, my 
boyfriend's mom is really 

483
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,240
confused about the they them 
pronouns and I was like, just 

484
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,240
tell her to call me he him if 
that's what needed. 

485
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,040
And he's like, but those aren't 
your pronouns. 

486
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,880
And I'm like, I really at this 
point don't care, right? 

487
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,960
But like, I don't think like I'm
not a trans man. 

488
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600
I don't I don't want bottom 
surgery. 

489
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,640
I don't identify as a man. 
Like being a man still makes me 

490
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,040
cringe. 
But I think I want top surgery 

491
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,840
in 2027. 
That's my goal. 

492
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,600
So like maybe that's going to 
happen. 

493
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,800
I don't know. 
I'm still right now I have a 

494
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,200
not, it's not scheduled yet, but
I have a doctor and we're 

495
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,640
scheduling A hysterectomy. 
So that's happening. 

496
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,840
But it's really challenging to 
like look like a man, be on 

497
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,240
testosterone having these gender
affirming surgeries and people 

498
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,680
are like, so you're not a man. 
I'm confused. 

499
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,880
You look like a man, you talk 
like a man. 

500
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,080
You're having men's surgery. 
But yes, this they them thing is

501
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,400
confusing for us. 
I mean, I will say that that's 

502
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,840
very common, especially like in 
in terms of Judaism. 

503
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,600
I'm just curious, like what sect
of Judaism did you were you 

504
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,760
brought up in? 
Yeah, so I will tell you 2 

505
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,720
things. 
I was brought up in Reformed 

506
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,080
Judaism, which is like yay gays.
We love the gays, we love the 

507
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,040
trans. 
I went to a Rosh Hashanah 

508
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,040
service. 
Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New 

509
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,880
year. 
For those that don't know, it 

510
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,240
was last week and I went to a 
congregation celebrate it. 

511
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,560
Yeah, apples and honey. 
I went to a Congress synagogue. 

512
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,120
Beth or in Everett, WA, go to 
their services. 

513
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,600
Shout out to Beth. 
Or they have their services at 

514
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,960
Camp Calisman, which is a 
Reformed Jewish summer camp here

515
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,720
in Washington. 
And they fly in this musical 

516
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,720
leader from I think Chicago, 
whatever. 

517
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,960
But like multiple times during 
the service, they're like, oh, 

518
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,600
and this is the non binary 
Hebrew and this is the whatever.

519
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,600
And so like they're totally 
inclusive. 

520
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,080
And like I've never felt more 
comfortable in my identity at a 

521
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,720
service than when I go to that 
service. 

522
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:16,120
However, my ex-husband grew up 
Chabad and so when we got 

523
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,920
married, we had a full Chabad 
wedding where like, I wore a 

524
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,600
dress that went down to my 
wrists and my dress went up to 

525
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,040
my my neck. 
And we had split seating where 

526
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,040
the men had to sit with the men 
and the women had to sit with 

527
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,480
the women. 
And like, it was very gendered. 

528
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,840
And so I don't know how much of 
that plays into his identity of 

529
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,600
how he saw me as a person, 
although his new he's with a new

530
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,960
person, they're married. 
They're also non binary. 

531
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,640
So like I know that it's not, 
it's not a problem like 

532
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,160
whatever. 
But like I know the way that he 

533
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,400
grew up was different, which is 
why he told me I couldn't be a 

534
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,200
rabbi because I was a female, 
right? 

535
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,680
Like that's where, that's where 
that. 

536
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,560
Makes sense because I know 
because I grew up performed in 

537
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:59,560
Episcopalian as well and there 
have been many female rabbis. 

538
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:02,680
Yes, there are, but there are 
traditionally the Reform and the

539
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,120
Conservative. 
Reforms not orthodox. 

540
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,200
Yes, and in Orthodox Judaism 
there are people that are called

541
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,840
like Rabbah or whatever, but 
they're not considered a rabbi. 

542
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,680
And so in Reform and 
Conservative Judaism, there are 

543
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,080
female rabbis and they're 
allowed. 

544
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,120
And so like, if I decided to 
ever go back to rabbinical 

545
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,760
school, which I don't think I 
would, I could be a rabbi. 

546
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,080
There are trans rabbis and non 
binary rabbis and they're a 

547
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,040
thing. 
And they've they've I want to 

548
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,480
shout out to this thing. 
There's this thing called the 

549
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,800
non binary Hebrew project where 
they've taken Hebrew, which is a

550
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,320
gendered language and they've 
made it into non binary Hebrew. 

551
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,040
So like the word for a male 
teacher is more and the word for

552
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,680
a female teacher is more and to 
make a non binary teacher, it's 

553
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,280
Moret. 
So at school where I work, I go 

554
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,520
by Moret Ray because that's the 
non binary teacher word. 

555
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,440
And so I think that's really 
cool. 

556
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,680
And so they use non binary 
Hebrew at the service said I 

557
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,640
went to for Rosh Hashanah and 
they were like, oh, and we're 

558
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,160
going to talk about like, what 
was the word they used? 

559
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,760
Blessings of I can't remember 
what it was, but blessings, Oh, 

560
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,240
identity blessings. 
And I was like, oh, that's so 

561
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,640
affirming. 
And it was just, it was just 

562
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,720
really special. 
So like Reformed Judaism, Shout 

563
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,480
out to being super inclusive of 
trans folks and making us feel 

564
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,640
welcome. 
Yeah. 

565
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,280
And that's that's my my 
experience as well growing up 

566
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,000
partially to reform is hey. 
Welcome. 

567
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,080
All you know, and I think 
that's, that's really great. 

568
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,560
Yeah. 
Especially it's great that 

569
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,440
you've got, you know the the 
label here for the non binary in

570
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,800
your role as a teacher, does 
that, you know, further help you

571
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,760
identifying help you identifying
like in public or in other 

572
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,360
private spaces as you know a way
to communicate like. 

573
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,640
Well-being in this job is 
interesting because when I first

574
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,480
started working here four years 
ago, I told the head of the 

575
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,200
school and I said I'm trans, I'm
non binary and I'm polyamorous. 

576
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,000
If that's going to be an issue, 
I'm not going to take a job 

577
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,520
here, right? 
Like I need, I need those things

578
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,160
to be OK. 
I need, I need it to be a 

579
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,560
problem, not a problem. 
And at the school that I work 

580
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,360
at, all of the bathrooms, even 
for the kids are gender neutral.

581
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,880
They're gender neutral 
bathrooms, even the ones that 

582
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,720
have like urinals and whatever, 
they're like non binary or 

583
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,040
they're gender neutral. 
And we like we have kids of all 

584
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,440
that are trans and non binary 
that use different pronouns. 

585
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,840
And we, you know, we had a kid 
last year that was using he him 

586
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,080
pronouns and one name. 
And this year they're using 

587
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,760
their, their given name and they
them pronouns. 

588
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,280
And we respect and welcome kids 
from all different identities. 

589
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,720
And when I first started working
at this job, I was not on 

590
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,360
testosterone and I started 
testosterone in February and 

591
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,000
very, and I didn't like have a 
conversation to be like, Hey, 

592
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,240
students, I'm starting 
testosterone. 

593
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,840
I'm going to have a beard and 
it's going to be weird, but like

594
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,760
some of the kids are like, hey, 
Ray, you have a beard. 

595
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,720
And I'm like, and I just like 
what happened. 

596
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,320
We have this new kindergartner 
who like, she's got an attitude.

597
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,080
It's fine. 
But she came up to me the other 

598
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,720
day and she was like, you have a
beard, you're a man. 

599
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,320
And I was like, actually, I'm 
not my pronouns. 

600
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,920
Are they them? 
And they were like, Nope, you 

601
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,720
have a beard, you're a man. 
Like some of the kids don't get 

602
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,200
it because they're five, you 
know, it's whatever. 

603
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,880
But like other people are like, 
yeah, I'm more at Ray and it's 

604
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,560
fine and, you know, whatever. 
So like I can be who I am. 

605
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,400
And then it's also cool because 
like, not to pigeonhole me, but 

606
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,720
like we have a Pride Shabbat 
every year in Seattle and 

607
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,720
they're like, oh, Ray, you'll be
the like person to let go and 

608
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,200
you'll like be your 
representative and like 

609
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,920
whatever, you know, And there's 
this thing called Cashet and 

610
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,880
Sojourn. 
They like do this organizational

611
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,760
thing. 
They're like 2 organizations in 

612
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,280
the in like Georgia area that do
like lobbying and stuff and they

613
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,840
get like schools from all over 
the US to like help them. 

614
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,000
And so they have like an 
organization and they're like 

615
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,360
Ray, you can help with that 
because you're the, you're the 

616
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,040
token queer. 
So I get to help out with those 

617
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,880
things, which is really cool 
because it feels like, you know,

618
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,200
they're important. 
And I'll say that I'm not the 

619
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,640
only one. 
I mean, last year there were 

620
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,520
more. 
We had three non binary staff 

621
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,360
people at my school last year. 
This year it's 2 but more 

622
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,880
children so I'm not the only one
but like it does help me, you 

623
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,240
know, claim my space when I get 
to right. 

624
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,960
Kind of simultaneously like 
affirming, but also kind of 

625
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,320
pigeon holing a little bit. 
Yeah, your identity, it doesn't,

626
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,480
it doesn't seem to. 
Bother me so far, like if it 

627
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,720
bothered me I would say 
something about it but so far 

628
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:49,800
it's it's not. 
Bothering me? 

629
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,800
That's good. 
And raise then. 

630
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Oh, oh, sorry. 
Ray, do you find, you know, 

631
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,600
with, with with the community, 
do you find the theory is a 

632
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,360
dismissive perception towards 
non binary people? 

633
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,040
I mean, we, we live in a, in a 
world where it's very binary is 

634
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,960
one or the other, you know, and 
I feel like that's a, you know, 

635
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,520
you brought up the term 
bisexual. 

636
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,800
Even I feel that that term is, 
it's still rooted in such a 

637
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,520
binary because it's either one 
or the other. 

638
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,360
It's not inclusive to the 
spectrum of identity. 

639
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,560
Do you find like societal 
pressure or the sense that like 

640
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:36,040
non binary is is often dismissed
as just like an in between 

641
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,080
because some people you know 
there's a? 

642
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,679
Lot of I feel like there's a lot
of things in the queer community

643
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:50,679
that are just we don't we 
respect each other, we don't see

644
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:53,679
each other sometimes and we put 
down other people when we 

645
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:54,360
shouldn't. 
Right. 

646
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,800
Like I feel like lesbians are 
like, oh, bisexuals aren't good 

647
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,560
enough or oh, you were you, you 
dated a man once, but now you 

648
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,000
don't anymore. 
Like that's a problem. 

649
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,760
You're not a Gold Star lesbian. 
Like that's a problem, right? 

650
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,360
Like why do we fucking do this 
to each other, right? 

651
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,560
Like we're a small enough 
community as it is. 

652
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,880
And I feel like non binary is 
the same thing. 

653
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,840
Like I said, like if I were a 
man, like if I were a trans man,

654
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,800
right, like I feel like back in 
the day, trans people, it was 

655
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,680
either trans women or trans men.
There wasn't really a non binary

656
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,080
that people talked about. 
Same with like before gay 

657
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,440
rights. 
There was like there you were 

658
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,040
the gay or street, right? 
Like there's I feel like non 

659
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,520
binary is the new. 
It's not the new thing, but like

660
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,720
it's a new, it's still newish, 
right. 

661
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:38,640
Like they then pronouns are 
still newish. 

662
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,160
ZZZZ. 
I I still can't pronounce those.

663
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,280
Those are still newish, right? 
Like Neo pronouns are still 

664
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,480
newish, right? 
Like those things years from now

665
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,040
will just be known, right? 
Like the kids in today's society

666
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,880
in my school are like, Oh yeah, 
they them like they totally get 

667
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,760
it. 
But like the adults are the ones

668
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,600
that have issues with it. 
Well, and actually I told my mom

669
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,240
this too, because my mom also 
has a problem with they them 

670
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:08,320
because of the singular versus 
plural. 

671
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:14,280
And I pointed out to her that in
Old English they did use they 

672
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,600
them as singular pronouns as 
well. 

673
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:24,880
So what I like to say to people,
right, is you, you contacted 

674
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,320
your healthcare professional 
situation and they're like, your

675
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,440
doctor has retired. 
We're giving you a new Doctor, 

676
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,360
Doctor Smith. 
Doctor Smith has a appointment 

677
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,240
for you on Wednesday. 
When you talk to your people 

678
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:37,960
about your doctor, you're going 
to say, oh, I'm going to see 

679
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,280
them. 
They are going to give me a flu 

680
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,360
shot. 
They are my new Doctor. 

681
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,080
They have been replaced because 
my other doctor, whatever you're

682
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,200
talking about, one person, you 
just don't know the gender of 

683
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,480
your doctor yet because you've 
never met your doctor before. 

684
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,280
It is still talking about one 
person or like you know a 

685
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,640
server, like they got a tip, 
they whatever. 

686
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,000
Like you don't know because they
whatever. 

687
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,280
If you're talking about someone 
you don't know about, you use 

688
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,840
them. 
Like people just do it. 

689
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,600
They just don't realize they're 
doing it. 

690
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,200
Is in customer service. 
I I work in customer service. 

691
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,760
So yeah, all of the time. 
You can, you can assume that 

692
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,080
they them before you can assume 
that they, you know, somebody 

693
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,800
says like my son or my husband, 
you can just still say they and 

694
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,720
they don't take offense at it. 
Everybody still gets it if you 

695
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:28,760
use they instead of he or she. 
That does not really replace 

696
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,120
what what or offend people in 
any way if you just continue to 

697
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,120
use the general neutral pronoun 
as your de facto right. 

698
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:43,440
Yeah, I am. 
I'm in a 12 step program and I, 

699
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,200
I've been in the 12 step program
in and out for 12 years. 

700
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,640
And I obviously was a female 
before I came out as non binary 

701
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,360
trans. 
And so a lot of people know me 

702
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,400
by my dead name and my dead 
pronouns. 

703
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,080
And so I had to like have this 
transition where like I was 

704
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,640
like, no, call me Ray, my 
pronouns are they them? 

705
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,680
And so like I literally go up to
the front of the room in these 

706
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,400
meetings and I'm like, hi, my 
name is Ray. 

707
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,120
My pronouns are they them? 
And I'm an addict, you know, 

708
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,680
whatever. 
And I have done that now for 14 

709
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,560
months since I've lived in 
Seattle and been going to this 

710
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,120
meeting. 
I still get dead named. 

711
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,560
I still get misgendered at these
meetings because these are like 

712
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,760
80 year old women who like 
struggle with the they them 

713
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,160
thing. 
And like even if I correct them 

714
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,680
and I'm like they them, they 
them like it still happens. 

715
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,880
And like I don't, I don't know 
how to fix it right. 

716
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:39,160
Like I don't know how to correct
people when like it just I've 

717
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,720
tried for a year, more than a 
year. 

718
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:44,360
My parents still do it. 
It's been three years, you know,

719
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,120
I just, I don't know how. 
And at some point it's 

720
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:50,760
disheartening isn't the right 
word. 

721
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,760
But like, I get it to a point 
where like, is it worth it 

722
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,640
correcting people anymore? 
Right. 

723
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,160
Like somebody called me for to 
schedule a doctor's appointment 

724
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:02,760
and I was driving in the car 
with my 7 year old and they were

725
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,200
like, Oh yeah, miss, you know, 
whatever and like, whatever. 

726
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,640
And then I hung up the phone and
my 7 year old was like, why 

727
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,400
didn't you correct him? 
You're not a miss. 

728
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,320
And I was like, damn it, I. 
I. 

729
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,160
Should have done that. 
It's easier to roll with it, 

730
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,320
right? 
Honestly, at this point, I mean,

731
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,520
in the climate that we're in, 
you know, whatever pronouns 

732
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,560
somebody uses towards me for my 
own safety, I just, you know, 

733
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:29,880
that's if that's how they see 
me, that's how they see me. 

734
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:35,320
It's safer to, you know, if they
use he, then it's like, I will, 

735
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,880
you know, especially in this 
climate that we're in, if I 

736
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,400
correct them, you know, I'm more
likely to cause an issue. 

737
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,320
Whereas if I just, you know, let
him let them see me how they see

738
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:49,320
me, I don't care, you know, And 
that, you know, that's, that's 

739
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,520
just, you know, begs the 
question for me though, because 

740
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,360
I've never felt even in the, in 
the, I don't like labels, you 

741
00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,160
know, and I feel like I just in 
my 20s, I, I could have easily 

742
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,480
be considered, you know, non 
binary because I just don't 

743
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,000
like, I don't like these labels 
and I feel they're very 

744
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,840
restrictive. 
And I feel still for me 

745
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,560
personally, even non binary. 
Is restrictive because it is. 

746
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,200
I don't know, it's the whole 
thing for me. 

747
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,400
So because I just did more, I 
wish I could just say my gender 

748
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,240
is Caroline because trans woman 
doesn't seem to fit. 

749
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:26,960
Trans non binary woman doesn't 
fit none. 

750
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,080
I just in Caroline, you know, 
and you know, you try to explain

751
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,160
that to people out there in the 
world. 

752
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,160
They're like what? 
And like, yeah. 

753
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,200
It's also in certain places you 
have to pick a gender, right? 

754
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,800
Like this summer I did a lot of 
traveling and like, you have to 

755
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,320
go to the bathroom, right? 
And I, I look the way that I 

756
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,560
look with a full beard and a 
mustache and short hair and like

757
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,560
a binder. 
Like I look like a dude. 

758
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,480
So like I now have to use the 
men's restroom, which like is a 

759
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,120
weird concept of like taking my 
kid into the female restroom and

760
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,600
him being like mommy, I'm a boy.
And now like taking him into the

761
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,560
men's restroom and like feeling 
like I belong there. 

762
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,640
That's a whole other subject 
going into a men's restroom. 

763
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,120
First of all, they're 
disgusting. 

764
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,240
But secondly, like I like, I 
feel like I'm like a secret spy,

765
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,440
like a secret agent. 
Like I don't feel like I belong 

766
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,200
there, but I also feel like I 
don't belong in the women's 

767
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,160
restroom, but like I have to 
choose. 

768
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,040
And like, I went to Vegas this 
summer and like, that's it's, 

769
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,120
it's blueish, but like, it's 
still a little red. 

770
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,400
And like, I felt like, am I 
going to get like jumped? 

771
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,640
Like what's going to happen, 
right? 

772
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,800
Like, am I going to go into this
place and somebody's going to 

773
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,440
like, look at me, right? 
Like I went to the, I went to 

774
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,240
the bathroom this week and my 
kid needed to use the bathroom. 

775
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,520
And so I took him in and I was 
like standing by the sink and a 

776
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,120
gentleman walked in and he like 
looked at me and he was like, 

777
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,840
why are you standing in the 
men's restroom? 

778
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,600
And I was just like awkward and 
I was like waiting for my kid to

779
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,360
go to the bathroom. 
But like restrooms are so weird 

780
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,760
when there's no like non binary 
family restroom, right? 

781
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,320
Like not all airports have that.
Not all restaurants or hotels or

782
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,520
whatever have that. 
And like you've got to pick 1. 

783
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,640
And I would make women 
uncomfortable if I walked into 

784
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,800
the women's restroom right now 
because I look like a fucking 

785
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,960
dude. 
But I mean, you've always got 

786
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,440
like the smaller venues that 
just have the single bathroom 

787
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,840
that's always unisex. 
So like there's no pressure. 

788
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,360
Yeah, I mean, I don't know why 
we can't just design bathroom 

789
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,840
stalls that like are just like 
top to bottom instead of having 

790
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:18,840
like in. 
Seattle. 

791
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,600
In Seattle at our airport, we 
have a whole bathroom that's 

792
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,680
just called bathroom and it's 
like 20 stalls and they're all 

793
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:26,960
floor to ceiling. 
It's for anywhere. 

794
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,880
See, that makes some more sense.
I don't understand. 

795
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:33,600
It's well, we know who created 
those bathroom designs of the 

796
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,840
past SIS men. 
And you know why they leave 

797
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,840
extra space and tax in between. 
Anyway, I want to get to that. 

798
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,640
So you have been an educator for
about 10 years, is that right? 

799
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:52,400
About a decade. 
Since 2012, so a little bit 

800
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,200
longer than that. 
OK, so about 13 years, you know,

801
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,160
I was thinking 13 years, I'm 
like, wow, that's like 1997, 

802
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,280
wow, you know, But then I'm 
like, Nope, that's 2012. 

803
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,480
So, so so tell me what that was 
like starting out in 2012. 

804
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,800
So 2013 was when the gender 
dysphoria was no longer 

805
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,240
considered a mental illness. 
And so going from 2012 thirteen 

806
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:21,520
to, you know, 2015, some 
acceptance was happening and now

807
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,400
we're here in 2025. 
Tell me what that what that what

808
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,040
your experience has been like as
an educator going from so many 

809
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,480
different the versions of our of
our country and and the 

810
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,400
acceptance or lock thereof 
recently. 

811
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,920
How's how's that been for you? 
Can I tell you guys something 

812
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,120
without you judging me? 
Oh yeah, totally. 

813
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,520
Yeah, when I first went to 
college, like I said, my parents

814
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,480
raised me. 
I was a Republican at the time, 

815
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,840
so please do not judge me. 
When Obama was elected the first

816
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,760
time, I was disappointed because
I was a Republican at the time 

817
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,040
and I was like, this is stupid. 
I very quickly realized that 

818
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,240
that was dumb of me. 
So like that was like a 

819
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,000
transition point from like being
a Republican my freshman year in

820
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,360
college to like joining like and
it was weird cuz like I was in 

821
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,000
LGBTQIA clubs in high school, 
but for some reason I was a 

822
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,360
Republican and I was like 
Republican money cuz that's all 

823
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:16,760
people that a Republican care 
about. 

824
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,520
But I didn't want Obama to be 
elected because I was a 

825
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,640
Republican at the time. 
And so that transition happened,

826
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,920
but like, it really wasn't even 
as an educator, Like it wasn't 

827
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:34,080
until it wasn't until I got 
cancer, until like, my gender 

828
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,000
really started getting messed 
with because I lost all my hair 

829
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,880
when I lost all my hair. 
And I didn't have this like, 

830
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,280
long blonde hair that I'd always
had. 

831
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,320
Like it allowed my gender to 
like figure its way out and like

832
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,080
be like, oh, I kind of like 
having short hair. 

833
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,880
I don't think I want to grow it 
back out. 

834
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,720
What does that mean for me? 
I'm feeling myself in these 

835
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:01,800
masculine clothes with my hair 
short and whatever, like am IA 

836
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,320
lesbian. 
Is that what this is? 

837
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:08,320
I don't I don't know. 
And like figuring that out, like

838
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,480
really only came in 2021 with 
the cancer. 

839
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,920
So like, I don't know, like 
maybe it would have happened at 

840
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,480
some point, but I think the 
cancer really like progress, the

841
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,080
gender questioning, the queer 
stuff. 

842
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,000
Like I, I knew that I was queer,
right. 

843
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,360
Like and when I I think my first
queer, well, no, I went to I 

844
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,440
went to gay pride when I was in 
Los Angeles and that must have 

845
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,240
been when I was in college. 
So like I was going to gay 

846
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:32,880
prides. 
I just thought I was straight, 

847
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,040
which totally doesn't make 
sense, but like I was like, I'm 

848
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,600
just a straight ally that makes 
up with girls when I'm drunk. 

849
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,120
Like everybody, like everybody 
always does. 

850
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,400
And. 
Like I had a girlfriend for like

851
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,760
2 days when I was in college. 
It was very short. 

852
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,880
She broke up with me because she
thought I wanted to have sex 

853
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,680
with her and that was all I 
wanted and so she broke up with 

854
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,320
me after 2 days. 
But I did have a girlfriend very

855
00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:01,400
short time in college and then 
and then I went back to straight

856
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,480
men. 
You know, my I dated a person of

857
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,800
color in, in college, a black 
man and I told my mom about it 

858
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,520
and she literally slapped me 
across the face. 

859
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,360
So I knew that like that wasn't 
allowed. 

860
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,440
Women weren't allowed. 
I again, white man picket fence,

861
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,320
golden retriever, 2.5 dogs or 
2.5 kids. 

862
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,520
Like it just wasn't going to 
happen. 

863
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,600
Problems are better than. 
Kids. 

864
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:33,240
Sorry, I don't know it's a it's 
a toss above which is easier to 

865
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,960
take care of themselves. 
I think kids are in the 

866
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:38,720
beginning are a little harder, 
but they. 

867
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,320
In the end themselves, yeah, 
they have a lot of economy. 

868
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,520
Dogs, you've got to clean up 
after them forever. 

869
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,640
But so I don't know, like I 
think that like I remember the 

870
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,600
second time Obama was elected 
and I was excited at that point.

871
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,560
I remember when no, no hate like
the the like facial, were they 

872
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,120
like stickers or like painting 
where it was like no, whatever. 

873
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,640
And I got one of those and I was
really excited about it. 

874
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,600
But I think I was still straight
or quote UN quote straight at 

875
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,440
the time. 
I didn't think that I was queer,

876
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,480
but clearly there were 
relationships in college and 

877
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,680
high school and whatever that 
like I wanted to have that I 

878
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,400
just was too scared to do. 
Luckily, now, 14 years later, I 

879
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,760
was able to rekindle one of 
those and make that work. 

880
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,720
But at the time I was, I was 
scared and I, I couldn't do it. 

881
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:37,880
And I wasn't until 2020 until I 
was even possible to do anything

882
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,960
with a woman. 
And then then it sort of took 

883
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:46,000
off at that point. 
So as far as like your 

884
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,240
experience, like teaching kids 
are in the classroom, like 

885
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,080
finding ways to to bridge the 
gap or and create like 

886
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,360
empathetic moments, like has 
that changed or has the work 

887
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,880
pretty much been the same since,
since you started? 

888
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:09,320
I think I'm more aware of gender
in terms of like the way that 

889
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,080
things are phrased. 
Like there's this prayer called 

890
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,240
Pine Matov, which is about like 
it's, it literally says bringing

891
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,600
brothers and sisters together. 
And there's a version of it that

892
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,120
I don't, I don't think I have, 
but there's a version of it that

893
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,280
they sang at the Russia China 
service where it's basically 

894
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,800
saying bringing everyone 
together or something. 

895
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,360
But like different wording where
it's like not brothers and 

896
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,640
sisters, it's not gendered, it's
for everyone. 

897
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,960
Or using the non binary Hebrew 
for the morning prayers or, you 

898
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,240
know, who has made me in God's 
image rather than who is, you 

899
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:47,800
know, whatever. 
Like using specific blessing? 

900
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,920
Sorry, I know that's a song. 
Was it sung in the in the song 

901
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,720
format or was it just said in 
like? 

902
00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:57,040
It was song in the song format. 
Yeah, it. 

903
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,600
Was I don't know. 
I'm going to check real quick if

904
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,080
I have a picture of it. 
I took pictures of that service.

905
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,880
I know, like I can hear it in my
head too. 

906
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,560
It's like, well. 
There's the regular like he 

907
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:14,120
name, but it was a different 
version that another artist had 

908
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,960
musical artist had done and they
changed the wording. 

909
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:24,760
I don't think I have it. 
I think I might have deleted it,

910
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,800
but it was done. 
It was a different, it was a 

911
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,920
different version and they 
changed some of the wording and 

912
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,720
it was a different tune and it 
was really beautiful and it was 

913
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,200
like gender affirming and it 
wasn't brothers and sisters. 

914
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,800
It was like who brings us all to
I think the word was Kulanu, 

915
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:46,360
which is like all incumbent 
sing, but it was like instead of

916
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,280
Kulano Gamya, I think whatever 
instead of because I came his 

917
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,280
brothers, but I don't remember 
the exact Hebrew. 

918
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:55,680
I'm not a professional Hebrew 
speaker. 

919
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,760
That's one of my things that I 
need to work on. 

920
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:03,520
I have a 1100 days and Duolingo 
and I'm still not I'm nowhere. 

921
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:07,160
Hebrews. 
Hard. 

922
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,320
I took like 4 years of it and I 
did like Wilpon in Israel and 

923
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,880
like I did like a whole thing to
like try to speak it and like I 

924
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,560
lived in Israel for months and I
still cannot speak it for the 

925
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,200
death of me. 
But I think it was Kulano. 

926
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,880
But they changed the words to 
make it inclusive, and I think I

927
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,240
just try to do things like that 
to make things inclusive. 

928
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,120
Well, and I was wondering about 
your your paper cut art. 

929
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,040
Can you tell us more about that 
and how it got how you got 

930
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,760
started? 
In that, yeah, it actually 

931
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,000
started Jewishly, which like I 
think is funny. 

932
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,960
There's a Jewish paper cut 
artist who does it with comics. 

933
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,400
He does comics on the back of 
the instead of like paper cutter

934
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,320
or watercolor. 
And he lives in LA He's actually

935
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,000
the brother of Mayim Bialik, 
which I think is cool. 

936
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,080
Yeah. 
So he does Jewish paper cut art.

937
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,440
His name is Isaac Isaac 
Brenegard Bielek. 

938
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,280
He's married to a rabbi. 
And I was interning at the 

939
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,200
synagogue that his wife was the 
rabbi at. 

940
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,760
And so I got to know his paper 
cut art and sort of learned what

941
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:11,960
it was. 
And I asked him about it. 

942
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,600
He was like, yeah, you should 
get into it. 

943
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:15,920
And so I started doing it by 
hand. 

944
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,400
And so I got these like razor 
blades and I was like cutting 

945
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,280
things by hand. 
And I went to Israel and I was 

946
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,200
like making paper cuts in 
Israel. 

947
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,800
And, and I sold like 2 pieces of
art in Israel to these people 

948
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,800
that were friends of mine. 
And I thought it was so cool 

949
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,160
that I could do it. 
It wasn't perfect. 

950
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:31,920
It wasn't perfect, but like it 
was by hand. 

951
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:39,400
And then that was in 2000 and 
like 12, I think 2013. 

952
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,680
And then in 2017, I got this 
thing called a cricket, which is

953
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,320
like a machine that put in your 
own designs in it and it'll cut 

954
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,360
it for you. 
So then I learned how to like 

955
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,280
take my designs that I wanted 
and put them into my machine and

956
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,480
it would cut my designs for me 
with the machine. 

957
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,000
And so I could like mass produce
these things. 

958
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,200
And so I did 1 show in Oklahoma 
because I lived in Oklahoma for 

959
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,360
three years. 
And then when I moved to 

960
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,080
Maryland, I did 1 show in 
Maryland. 

961
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:09,800
No, I didn't do a show in 
Maryland. 

962
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,440
I did 1 show in Washington. 
When I I there was a coming out,

963
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,000
there was a film. 
There's a queer film. 

964
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,920
I could tell you what it is 
because I have it on Instagram. 

965
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,080
Give me a second. 
I think it is called Coming Out,

966
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:32,440
but maybe I'm wrong. 
The film was called Coming Aging

967
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:36,880
Out, an LGBTQ plus film. 
I don't remember what the film 

968
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,440
was about, but they invited 
these artists, queer artists to 

969
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:40,800
like sell their art at this 
film. 

970
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,640
And that was the first that I 
really got like a glimpse into 

971
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,760
selling my art full time, not 
full time, but like more 

972
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,520
prevalently. 
And I had a booth and I made 

973
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,200
like 500 bucks that night. 
And I was like, Oh my gosh, I 

974
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,560
could do this. 
This is the thing. 

975
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,000
And so I like invested in some 
tables and I invested in a tent 

976
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,000
and I invested in this these 
grid walls. 

977
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,400
And then I was like, I'm going 
to do pride next year. 

978
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,200
And so then I booked a pride and
I booked a second pride and that

979
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,760
was three years ago. 
And now I did like 8 prides this

980
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,680
summer. 
I do like every weekend but the 

981
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:19,440
work is like I have like femmes 
can be Dems and I have like your

982
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,040
body is perfect with like 
different body shapes. 

983
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,560
And I have like a chest one 
which has like a bunch of 

984
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,480
different boobs in the trans 
chest and it says you are 

985
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:32,000
perfect. 
I have ones that say everybody 

986
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,240
belongs here, which has pictures
of like somebody in a hijab and 

987
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:38,440
somebody in a wheelchair and 
somebody with a whatever, right?

988
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,560
Like it's it's inclusive and 
it's body inclusive. 

989
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,800
And I have people of color. 
I have ones that are like, oh, 

990
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,080
dad bods that are like guys with
like ABS. 

991
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:49,800
And then I also have bear bods, 
right? 

992
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:52,640
I have vulva art, I have penis 
art. 

993
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:57,200
I have chest art. 
I have some Frida because 

994
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,880
everybody loves Frida. 
I've got different quotes. 

995
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,160
I've got like homophobia is 
extinct with like dinosaurs, 

996
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,240
which is really cute. 
I'm really excited that I have 

997
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:12,640
one one of my pieces of art, it 
says protect trans kids and 

998
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,800
Emily Randall, who is AUS 
congresswoman here in 

999
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,560
Washington, bought it for her 
office. 

1000
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,120
So it is up in her office, which
I think is super cool. 

1001
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,560
I'm really trying to get into 
some like OBGYN offices because 

1002
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,920
I have a lot of like vulva art. 
If you check out my art, one of 

1003
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,200
my favorite pieces is a 
strawberry, but I have a lot of 

1004
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,000
large. 
Strawberries. 

1005
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,360
Yeah, I have a really cool 
strawberry vulva. 

1006
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,480
It's one of my favorites. 
And I think that like, if I can 

1007
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,960
get those and some like OBGYN 
offices, that would be really 

1008
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,480
cool. 
But like, I just, I feel like 

1009
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,360
it's, it's a way that I can 
express my like queer feminist 

1010
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,240
body positive self. 
And it's a, it's a lot of 

1011
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:56,560
rainbow. 
I also do other flags too, like 

1012
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,360
I've done like ace flags and BI 
flags and pan flags and trans 

1013
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,280
flags and whatever. 
So there's like a variety of 

1014
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,520
flags, but the majority of it is
rainbow because I want to be as 

1015
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,560
inclusive as possible. 
So, but I try to and I make 

1016
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,040
greeting cards, you know, I have
like let's scissor with like a 

1017
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:16,800
picture of scissors, which I 
think is really cute. 

1018
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:20,840
I've got the you're the breasts 
with some boobs, which is really

1019
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,040
cute. 
I've got dog butts, you know, 

1020
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:26,440
You think. 
That's right, it sounds like you

1021
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,200
should meet the founder or the 
one that created the trains 

1022
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:30,240
flag. 
That would be cool. 

1023
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,920
Maybe that would be cool. 
Maybe you could be a coast on 

1024
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:39,160
the podcast that they ever came 
on anyway, So that is I really 

1025
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,000
love that. 
So tell me, you know, how does 

1026
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,000
art and advocacy for you come 
together in the sense that like,

1027
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,240
how do you, I mean, obviously 
what you're doing is, is, is 

1028
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:51,040
inspirational and and you know, 
sharing this art is beautiful. 

1029
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,760
How do they intercept on a 
deeper level? 

1030
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:58,720
For you, I'm finding it. 
I'm trying to find places where 

1031
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:02,680
I can sell my art that feels 
safe for me and where I can feel

1032
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,520
like I can make a difference and
do that. 

1033
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,720
I have a Christmas show that's 
coming up. 

1034
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,600
It's my second time trying it. 
The first time was a like 

1035
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,760
complete failure because people 
were not interested in buying 

1036
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,920
queer focus, feminine focus 
things at Christmas fair. 

1037
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,760
So I'm going to try it again. 
We're going to see if it goes 

1038
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,640
well or not. 
If not, I'm not going to do 

1039
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,040
those anymore. 
But I think like I'm really 

1040
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:31,240
pushing like at at Pride 
festivals to like be able to 

1041
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,200
make a difference, get my word 
out, get this advocacy of like 

1042
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:41,080
everybody needs a safe space. 
And I do that through art and 

1043
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:47,280
being able to have these 
powerful, sometimes challenging 

1044
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,840
pieces on their walls, right? 
Like I have one that's a it's a 

1045
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,680
hanger with like flowers on it. 
And it says this is not 

1046
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,680
healthcare. 
I'm like that. 

1047
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,560
That's a gut punch. 
It's. 

1048
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:01,960
Powerful. 
Yeah, right there. 

1049
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,520
Powerful, right? 
But like that is advocacy that 

1050
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:11,320
is fighting for, you know, the 
the right to get an abortion if 

1051
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,320
somebody needs it or wants it, 
right. 

1052
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,400
Like we have Ruth Bader 
Ginsburg, right? 

1053
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:20,440
Like I have like a lot of, I 
wouldn't say they're political, 

1054
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,360
but they're political, right? 
Like, you know, they're 

1055
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,120
political things. 
They're not, they're not 

1056
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,800
politics, but they're political 
things. 

1057
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:33,520
And it's my way of being 
political without, you know, 

1058
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:35,640
wearing, wearing a hat or going 
door to door. 

1059
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,080
Yeah. 
So I mean, you really have to 

1060
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:44,960
kind of creatively find a way to
express yourself so as not to 

1061
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:49,240
brand yourself as being one 
particular thing or to subscribe

1062
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,280
to 1 overarching narrative that 
might alienate you from a 

1063
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:57,040
customer base at the same time, 
like holding your your elements 

1064
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,520
of what you want to project to 
be true, right? 

1065
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:01,480
Which is why the Christmas fair 
is so hard, right? 

1066
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,960
Like I don't want to be there 
selling Jesus stuff, right? 

1067
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,120
Especially as a Jew. 
But I do have, I have 6 

1068
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,240
different varieties of crosses 
because some of them are 

1069
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:10,360
regular, some of them are 
rainbow. 

1070
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,280
But I do have some pastors and 
stuff that come in that are 

1071
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,400
like, can I get a rainbow cross?
And I'm like, yes, Rainbow Cross

1072
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:17,720
will make it happen. 
It's the. 

1073
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,080
Rainbow Jewish stars, right? 
Like, we'll make it happen, but 

1074
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,880
like, am I going to go out there
and do like Santa and reindeer? 

1075
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,840
And no, that's not what I want 
to do. 

1076
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:32,320
I want to do queer feminist body
positivity, right? 

1077
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,360
Like advocating for what I 
believe in. 

1078
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,400
And that is not Christmas. 
So, you know, I need to find the

1079
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,800
places that that is the right 
space to do that at. 

1080
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,840
I tried to sell my stuff on 
Etsy, but they didn't like the 

1081
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,600
vulva and the the boob. 
So they've shut me down twice. 

1082
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:52,120
So I only sell on Instagram. 
Sorry, friends, but you can find

1083
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,640
me on Instagram. 
I'm sorry. 

1084
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,240
Yeah, and Etsy takes a lot of 
money out of it, so it's 

1085
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,720
whatever. 
But you know, I'm trying to do 

1086
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,360
what I can to make a difference.
Absolutely. 

1087
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:17,840
So Ray, you know, 2021 for me 
was a very interesting year. 

1088
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:23,640
I had gotten to meet the 
community and I had come to 

1089
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,360
understand my gender identity a 
little better. 

1090
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:31,920
And I, I, I like to think back 
to, you know, prior to that year

1091
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:37,560
and how isolated or, you know, 
not accustomed to, to 

1092
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,680
terminology or the way of our 
community. 

1093
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,920
And you've expressed that, you 
know, 2021 for you was a year 

1094
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:50,840
that was what I can imagine very
scary at the time. 

1095
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,800
Would you mind taking us back 
to, you know, those moments in 

1096
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,720
2021 when you had come to 
understand, you know, what was 

1097
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,680
happening and how that affected 
you personally? 

1098
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,040
And, and, you know, it takes 
back to that moment, if you mind

1099
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:07,280
if that's OK. 
I don't know if that's 

1100
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,880
something. 
Take us back to that moment, you

1101
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,960
know, when you found out you're 
diagnosis and and what you had 

1102
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,680
dealt with at that time, what 
was going through your mind. 

1103
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,640
So my diagnosis came in February
of 2021. 

1104
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:27,640
I was on the phone with a friend
and I turned my chest a little 

1105
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:31,560
bit when I was talking and a 
baseball sized lump popped out 

1106
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,760
of my clavicle and I was like 
what is this? 

1107
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,840
And at first I thought it was 
like a doctor pimple popper or 

1108
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,080
something. 
I was like, what, like we need 

1109
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:44,680
to go get this handled. 
But within a week or two I found

1110
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:50,360
out that it was stage 4 
Hodgkin's lymphoma and the non 

1111
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,640
queer in me. 
Well, I think I, I was queer at 

1112
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,800
that time, but like, I was like,
I'm dyeing my hair rainbow. 

1113
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:56,880
I know it's going to fall out. 
We're we're doing it. 

1114
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:58,560
I've always wanted to dye my 
hair rainbow. 

1115
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,080
So I dyed my hair rainbow. 
There's proof of it on tech talk

1116
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,520
and I had rainbow hair for a 
week. 

1117
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,080
Like I literally paid whatever 
it was to have them color my 

1118
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:13,440
hair for for for a week. 
And then a week later, the first

1119
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,720
first day of chemo, me and my 
ex-husband and my ex-girlfriend,

1120
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,760
we shaved my hair off and with a
friend we shaved my hair off 

1121
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,320
because I said that I wanted to 
be in control of my hair coming 

1122
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,760
off, not cancer. 
And so we shaved my head till it

1123
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,680
was like, I was like a little 
bit left. 

1124
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:34,160
It was like 2mm whatever, 
whatever it was, wasn't bald 

1125
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,480
that there was like it was, it 
was shorter than buzz type. 

1126
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:43,360
And that lasted for three weeks.
And then I got diagnosed. 

1127
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,040
I got, I got hospitalized 
because I thought I had a staph 

1128
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,000
infection. 
And when I was in the hospital, 

1129
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:53,160
the rest of my hair fell out, 
which was like, to be graphic, 

1130
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,760
like I didn't realize that all 
of your hair falls out when you 

1131
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:57,880
lose your hair during cancer. 
It's not just your head hair, 

1132
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,760
it's your eyebrows, it's your 
pubic hairs, it's your underarm 

1133
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,280
hairs, it's your leg hairs. 
Like all of your hair is gone. 

1134
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,680
And so I was laying in this 
hospital bed and I got up to go 

1135
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:08,880
to the bathroom and like, just 
like hair everywhere. 

1136
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:11,520
Like my leg hair, like just all 
of my hair had fallen out. 

1137
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,840
And I was really confused 
because I was like not expecting

1138
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,000
that to happen. 
So as of like March in 2021, I 

1139
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:24,400
was completely bald and I went 
through 12 treatments of chemo. 

1140
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,600
It's called 6 rounds, 12 
treatments each. 

1141
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:33,960
Each round is is 2 sessions. 
My I don't want to call him out 

1142
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:34,680
for this. 
Whatever. 

1143
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:36,960
My ex-husband came to the first 
session of chemo with me to make

1144
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,680
sure that I could drive. 
And then after he realized I 

1145
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:41,920
could drive myself, I went to 
the other 11 treatments by 

1146
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:45,000
myself. 
So I went to 11 treatments by 

1147
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:50,120
myself and I was sitting there 
in a hospital getting chemo for 

1148
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,080
hours. 
Most of listening to music are 

1149
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,080
making Tik Toks because what 
else are you going to do with 

1150
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,200
your time? 
But it was it was a really scary

1151
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,000
time. 
It was also in the middle of 

1152
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,000
COVID. 
And so they, they weren't really

1153
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,040
allowing people like I could 
have had somebody there with me,

1154
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,920
but they weren't, they weren't 
allowing a lot of people in and 

1155
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,400
out and at home. 
Like we were masking, right? 

1156
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,080
Like because I was 
immunocompromised, right? 

1157
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,560
Like I couldn't, I wasn't going 
out and having fun. 

1158
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,320
It was it was a really isolating
time. 

1159
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:26,600
But what was really cool is 
after at some point, I don't 

1160
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,880
remember what point it was, but 
my doctor gave me the clear the 

1161
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,000
go ahead to go on a flight to 
visit California, to visit my 

1162
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,600
family and friends. 
I think it might have been after

1163
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:37,600
three weeks. 
I don't know what it was. 

1164
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:42,800
It was after a few sessions of 
chemo and I flew back to 

1165
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,200
California to pick up my son, to
bring him back because my 

1166
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,840
parents had taken him for a few 
weeks while I figured out the 

1167
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,520
first round or two of chemo. 
So I flew back to pick him up 

1168
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:58,840
and I visited my friends and I 
visited my family and it was, it

1169
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:02,120
felt really nice to like be 
normal for like a weekend. 

1170
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:08,080
And then I came back and 
unfortunately, like, you know, 

1171
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:09,880
when there's like sickness or 
whatever and there's like, oh, 

1172
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:11,600
1% of people this will happen 
to, right? 

1173
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,760
Like I'm always the 1%. 
So like I was the 1% that got 

1174
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:16,560
cancer. 
I was the 1% that like when I 

1175
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:20,640
took this medication, I got a 
deathly severe thing called 

1176
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:22,600
Steven Johnson syndrome and I 
almost died. 

1177
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:26,200
I had bone pain. 
I had this, I had that like all 

1178
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,080
of these things that are like 
only happened to a percentage of

1179
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,920
the population. 
I got all of them and they 

1180
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,040
couldn't tell me why I was 
having pain for some of the 

1181
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,000
things that were happening. 
So it was, it was not a great 

1182
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:44,520
time, but I had my last chemo 
treatment in August of 2021 and 

1183
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:48,120
after that I was told that I was
in remission. 

1184
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,560
I got the port out almost 
immediately after that because 

1185
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,840
then I moved to Washington and I
switched over my care to 

1186
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,640
Washington. 
I did have a complication after 

1187
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,120
that where they had to remove 
this thing called the thymus, 

1188
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,080
which is under your lung. 
It was growing in my body and 

1189
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,080
they weren't sure why. 
But other than that surgery, 

1190
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:12,240
everything else has been fine 
since then. 

1191
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,560
And like I mentioned earlier, 
two weeks ago I had my last 

1192
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:17,120
scans and they were completely 
clear. 

1193
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:23,200
So I I'm good for another year 
and I'll get a test in another 

1194
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:28,520
year and then if next year comes
back clear I'll be cancer free. 

1195
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,000
Mazel tov. 
Yes. 

1196
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:37,240
Yes, I know, I love it. 
I don't know how we got here. 

1197
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:46,200
Oh, can you tell us a little bit
about kind of your healing 

1198
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:50,000
process and like kind of, I know
you probably went through like 

1199
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:56,240
some fear and, and finding 
strength through your adversity.

1200
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:06,000
Yeah. 
Unfortunately, it taught me that

1201
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,360
I only had myself to lean to 
rely on and that was not super 

1202
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:14,080
great. 
And I will say though, that it 

1203
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:20,480
really pushed me to explore my 
queer side because I decided to 

1204
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:22,800
have like A, at the time I was 
identifying as a female. 

1205
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:26,400
So I had a hot girl summer 
towards the end of my cancer 

1206
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:27,760
treatment. 
I've never had a hot girl summer

1207
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:29,560
before. 
But like, I was like, fuck it. 

1208
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:36,880
Like I'm hot And I, I looked 
great bald, unfortunately. 

1209
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,840
And like I was going out to like
clubs at the end of my cancer 

1210
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,080
treatment and like partying and 
like meeting new people and like

1211
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,760
really just trying to like live 
it up because I was like, I only

1212
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:49,440
have one life. 
Like I'm not fucking this up. 

1213
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,640
Like, I'm going to go party and 
whatever. 

1214
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,880
And I drove up to like 
Pennsylvania to like go to a bar

1215
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,480
with my sister because she lived
in Pennsylvania at the time. 

1216
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,800
And I was just like, I was 
having the time of my life 

1217
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:06,720
because I was like, you know, I,
I wanted to live. 

1218
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:11,520
And then I ended up moving to 
Washington to live with my 

1219
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:16,840
partner and sort of like settled
back in into like normal routine

1220
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,840
of like having a job and, you 
know, going to work every day 

1221
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,080
and being a normal human being 
and not just like, all right, 

1222
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,400
fuck it. 
But I still was at a point where

1223
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:32,560
like, I didn't want to hide my 
queer identity or hide my 

1224
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:37,640
polyamorous identity or anything
like that because I was like, I,

1225
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,280
I could die tomorrow. 
So like we're not doing that 

1226
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:46,440
anymore. 
And I, I think it just made me 

1227
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:47,920
struggle. 
And like, I hate, I think the 

1228
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,920
thing that I hate is that like, 
other than cancer, I have so 

1229
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,080
much trauma in my life. 
Like so much trauma. 

1230
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,800
Like I do EMDR therapy and my 
therapist is like, I made a list

1231
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:59,760
for her at the beginning and she
was like, Jesus Christ. 

1232
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:07,400
But like, I have so much trauma 
in my life that like, you know, 

1233
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,640
like I should be broken down and
sad and whatever. 

1234
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:15,560
But like, I hate saying it's 
what brings me where I am today.

1235
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,720
But like, it is right. 
Like I am who I am today because

1236
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,000
of the experiences that I've had
and cancer is one of them. 

1237
01:08:22,319 --> 01:08:25,080
And going through my queer 
journey is one of them. 

1238
01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:27,960
Do I think I would be where I'm 
at today if it didn't happen the

1239
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:28,840
way that I did? 
No. 

1240
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:33,800
Like, if I would have kissed my 
boyfriend 14 years ago, do I 

1241
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,279
think that we'd be where we are 
today? 

1242
01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:38,040
I don't know, right? 
Like I don't know if I was ready

1243
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,960
to be queer and out as queer and
trans at that point in my life, 

1244
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,200
Like, do I think I would have 
come out as trans and non 

1245
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:45,120
binary? 
I don't know. 

1246
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,000
Maybe. 
I think that all of those steps 

1247
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,640
brought me to who I am today. 
And like, I don't think that I 

1248
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:55,439
would be authentically me as a 
queer, trans, non binary, 

1249
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:58,800
polyamorous, Jewish, 
professional artists, whatever, 

1250
01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:01,000
if all those other things didn't
happen. 

1251
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:02,800
Do I hate them? 
Absolutely. 

1252
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,240
Am I glad that I am who I am 
today? 

1253
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,200
Also yes. 
I mean, really you're talking 

1254
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,760
about just how like much deeper 
your relationship with yourself 

1255
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:16,240
is because of the adversity you 
went through and how finding 

1256
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,960
your own space let's you kind of
expand to fulfill your own 

1257
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:22,880
desire for what your own roles 
are in your own life, right? 

1258
01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:28,080
I think you have to work towards
that and you know, find the 

1259
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,200
community that does let you 
build yourself in constructive 

1260
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:36,000
ways and not restrict you or or 
be destructive of your endeavors

1261
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:37,560
to it. 
So how does that, how does it 

1262
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,040
shaped you in your new 
community? 

1263
01:09:48,430 --> 01:09:51,960
I mean, I think that like with 
my new community, I think that 

1264
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,440
just like I'm trying to find 
some chosen family and find a 

1265
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:58,240
space that really accepts me for
who I am. 

1266
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:04,680
And I think that that's a hard 
thing to find, especially. 

1267
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:06,400
And I'm not going to get 
political. 

1268
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,560
I'm not going to say which way 
that I fall on the spectrum. 

1269
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:12,440
But as a Jewish queer person, 
there are a lot of views on 

1270
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:15,560
Israel and Palestine where are 
very polarizing, where some 

1271
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:17,520
people feel one way and some 
people feel the other. 

1272
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:21,120
And finding a safe space as a 
Jewish queer person in any of 

1273
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:23,760
these spaces can be conflicting 
for whoever it is. 

1274
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,480
And it's challenging, right? 
Like, it's really challenging to

1275
01:10:29,480 --> 01:10:37,360
feel like I can find a space 
that I feel safe in and that is,

1276
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:39,960
you know, even being 
authentically me. 

1277
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:43,760
And there's always that fear of 
like, me being myself is going 

1278
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:45,880
to fuck something up. 
Right. 

1279
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,760
It's, it's kind of built in 
whenever we have threats from 

1280
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,720
all sorts of places from the 
administration about us holding 

1281
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,400
on to our identity or, you know,
defending our, ourselves, even 

1282
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:02,760
ideologically, there's all kinds
of different pressures that come

1283
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:06,200
politically and, and from your 
faith as well. 

1284
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:10,440
And, and you know, sometimes the
best thing is to not give any 

1285
01:11:10,440 --> 01:11:13,360
kind of political stance 
publicly and just to have your 

1286
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,680
private conversations and let 
that be what it is, because you 

1287
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:20,680
can't really affect a whole lot 
when it comes to the the largest

1288
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:22,880
situations other than what stays
in your. 

1289
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:25,080
I'll say like there are some 
things that are not political 

1290
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,640
for me, like trans rights are 
not political, they are human 

1291
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:29,400
rights, right? 
Like that is a non negotiable 

1292
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:33,920
for me, right? 
And you know, LGBTQIA plus 

1293
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:35,480
rights are not a negotiable for 
me. 

1294
01:11:35,480 --> 01:11:36,960
Women's rights not a negotiable 
for me. 

1295
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,800
Like those, those are stands. 
But like anything else, I try to

1296
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,560
keep out of my artist booth. 
I try to keep out of public 

1297
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,880
spaces. 
Like it's just not, it's not 

1298
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:50,120
where I where I put my put my 
coins. 

1299
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:56,840
Especially after, you know, 
October 7th of yeah. 

1300
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:01,960
So that that definitely changed 
the whole Israeli Palestinian 

1301
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:08,280
conflict conversation, I think 
forever, but especially Jews. 

1302
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:12,640
I, I will say that as someone 
who deals with that and has been

1303
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,640
asked, you know, which side are 
you on and. 

1304
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,000
You know and. 
Very pointedly, I completely 

1305
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:23,280
understand. 
And I saw, I saw art in Seattle 

1306
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,880
at Pride, right? 
Like there are people of both 

1307
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:30,880
sides at Pride that are like my 
side, my side. 

1308
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:36,720
And like I sell Jewish arts also
like not just queer art, but 

1309
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,760
like I sell at like Hanukkah 
festivals and like I have to 

1310
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:42,440
hide some of my Jewish art 
because I'm afraid that like 

1311
01:12:42,440 --> 01:12:44,400
it's going to cause an issue. 
Like they're going to be people 

1312
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,040
who are anti-Semitic or they're 
going to be Jews who are like, 

1313
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:48,560
what side are you on? 
And I don't want to have those 

1314
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:50,440
conversations when I'm just 
trying to sell art. 

1315
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,400
It's like that's challenging. 
We're like, I feel like I'm 

1316
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:58,800
trying to like hide part of 
myself because I'm afraid of 

1317
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:00,960
starting a conversation that's 
political. 

1318
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,360
But like, I just, I don't, I 
don't want to. 

1319
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:13,720
Get into what parts of yourself 
deepened or shifted through the 

1320
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:21,320
journey of getting diagnosed and
realizing that you are trans and

1321
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:27,800
starting testosterone and all of
those kind of milestones that I 

1322
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:32,200
like to call them. 
Yeah, I think for me it's been 

1323
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:37,120
really interesting because like 
dysphoria has been like an 

1324
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,920
interesting thing for me. 
Like I didn't get dysphoria 

1325
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,080
growing up. 
Or like there are some people 

1326
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:45,440
who are trans that are like they
got dysphoria growing up, got 

1327
01:13:45,440 --> 01:13:47,160
dysphoria from wearing dresses, 
whatever. 

1328
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:51,160
I was hyper feminine, right? 
Like I was hyper feminine and I 

1329
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:55,280
never got dysphoria from that, 
but once I made a decision on 

1330
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,520
who I was, that's when the 
dysphoria started right? 

1331
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,280
Like I decided that I was they 
she I got a lot of dysphoria 

1332
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,240
from being she heard once I 
decided that I was right, I got 

1333
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:07,040
a lot of dysphoria from being 
dead named. 

1334
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:10,240
Once I decided that I was on 
testosterone and wanted to look 

1335
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:14,880
more masculine, I got a lot of 
dysphoria from looking feminine 

1336
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,640
and clothes fitting a certain 
way right. 

1337
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:24,520
Like it's been interesting that 
like it's it's progressed, 

1338
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:25,880
right? 
Like it hasn't always been the 

1339
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:29,600
same way for me. 
And I'd say that like a lot of 

1340
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,360
that was pushed forward, 
projected or whatever that word 

1341
01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:36,640
is that I'm looking for by the 
cancer treatment. 

1342
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:40,440
Because again, I lost my hair 
and I don't know if I would have

1343
01:14:40,440 --> 01:14:45,240
ever cut my hair as short as it 
was if it wasn't for like a 

1344
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:46,360
cancer statement. 
Maybe I would have. 

1345
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:49,760
That's actually a lie because 
before cancer, I did like an 

1346
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:51,920
undercut. 
I had a Jewish star undercut. 

1347
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:53,680
You can see it on my Instagram 
if you go to my regular 

1348
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,800
Instagram. 
But I had a Jewish star undercut

1349
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:57,840
that was really cool. 
So I was already starting to 

1350
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,440
play with the idea of like 
cutting my hair. 

1351
01:15:00,440 --> 01:15:03,560
I was doing like eyebrow slits 
and like other things, like 

1352
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:06,920
maybe the short hair might have 
come at some point, but I think 

1353
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:11,080
it like threw it into orbit and 
it was like, fuck you, here you 

1354
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,040
go, we're going to mess with 
your gender. 

1355
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:16,480
Sure. 
Here is kind of a gateway, I 

1356
01:15:16,480 --> 01:15:21,840
think, to masculinity for people
who were born female. 

1357
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:26,520
It was, you know, the first 
thing I did, you know, when I 

1358
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:30,680
started to assert my masculinity
was we shaved my head and 

1359
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:36,520
realized, oh, I like being bald.
I which is. 

1360
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,280
Interesting because for me at 
the beginning my bald had made 

1361
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:43,320
me feel very feminine. 
Oh wow, that's really 

1362
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,800
interesting. 
I I won't send them to you. 

1363
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:47,960
Well, I could, but like me being
bald. 

1364
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:50,880
Like you look at me and I'm 
like, you can tell that I'm like

1365
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,680
a hot woman. 
Yeah, and I've seen some of them

1366
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,840
on TikTok, Yeah. 
Yeah, like a bald woman. 

1367
01:15:57,840 --> 01:15:59,760
Like I feel so feminine in those
pictures. 

1368
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,280
It didn't feel masculine until 
it started growing back. 

1369
01:16:02,440 --> 01:16:05,680
There are plenty of feminine. 
An old woman? 

1370
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,440
Absolutely, yeah. 
Yeah, I was actually somebody 

1371
01:16:08,440 --> 01:16:09,960
talking about like getting 
cancer again. 

1372
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:12,200
And I was like, I would be 
nervous to go bald again because

1373
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:14,480
I would feel, I feel like it 
might be dysphoric that like I 

1374
01:16:14,480 --> 01:16:17,560
would look feminine. 
Well, and, and I was going to 

1375
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:22,400
ask you too, in terms of 
testosterone and hair loss, how 

1376
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:25,000
do you feel about that? 
I'm on minoxidil. 

1377
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,720
Oh, OK, so that's not. 
I'm on minoxidil. 

1378
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:32,960
I also use Rosemary oil. 
I'm like pushing through. 

1379
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,600
You can't see it in this. 
You Nobody on the podcast can 

1380
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:37,720
see it, but my hair is really 
thin after cancer. 

1381
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:38,680
Anyways. 
I don't know if you could see 

1382
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:40,480
that. 
Yeah, but I'm trying to get it 

1383
01:16:40,480 --> 01:16:41,320
to thicken back up. 
It's. 

1384
01:16:41,480 --> 01:16:43,640
Reported. 
So just to let you know, people 

1385
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:46,560
can see this because we are 
recording this podcast. 

1386
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:48,080
OK, great. 
Well then you can see it. 

1387
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:50,360
My hair is thin. 
If you can see that, I don't 

1388
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,680
know. 
But it comes up really well with

1389
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:55,840
the background blurred and 
everything it yeah, background. 

1390
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:59,480
Blurred it looks OK but like. 
In reality, it's I don't know. 

1391
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:03,200
And then it doesn't. 
Yeah. 

1392
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:08,480
So Ray, where can our listeners?
What's your Instagram handle? 

1393
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:13,280
The Instagram handle that I'll 
give you is Ray Sunshine Design.

1394
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:18,640
Ray Sunshine design on Instagram
and you said no threads. 

1395
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:20,160
No threads. 
It's. 

1396
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:26,000
Super political I, I, if I want 
to have a panic attack at the 

1397
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,440
end of the night, I'll go on to 
threads because that's where 

1398
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:29,520
it's. 
At I've never done threads. 

1399
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:31,720
I have a Facebook that's 
personal though, so I'm not 

1400
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:35,000
going to. 
I when I came out as trans and 

1401
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:37,320
non binary and Polly, I like 
deleted everybody. 

1402
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,560
I used to have friends on there 
and I was like, this is great. 

1403
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:43,440
But now it's more like close 
people. 

1404
01:17:43,440 --> 01:17:44,840
So Instagram is the way to find 
me. 

1405
01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:47,800
Yes, free sunshine design at 
Instagram. 

1406
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:52,240
I was going to say instagram.com
I. 

1407
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:54,640
Mean you go on the website. 
Right. 

1408
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:58,880
Well, Ray, this has been such a 
pleasure having you on the show.

1409
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,080
Thank you for, you know, taking 
this time and and being here 

1410
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:05,440
with us. 
And, you know, I am thankful to 

1411
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:11,000
to have this face, you know, 
especially in the climate that 

1412
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:14,560
we're in. 
I'm sure that a lot of our 

1413
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:17,880
listeners and myself and Claire 
are like, oh, what do we do in 

1414
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:19,560
times like these? 
And I, and I thought about it 

1415
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:23,320
last night and I think that, you
know, one of the ways that that 

1416
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:27,200
at least, you know, we here can,
can fight through what we're 

1417
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:33,280
dealing with is to not be silent
and, and to preserve our stories

1418
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:38,920
and to share our perspectives. 
Because, you know, as as 

1419
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,760
threatening as, as things may 
be, you know, that's, that's a 

1420
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:45,120
part of, you know, the, as a 
part of the regime is to scare 

1421
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:47,840
us into silence. 
And I think that, you know, 

1422
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,720
speaking up and, and, and 
sharing our stories is so 

1423
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,880
valuable and so important. 
And so, you know, I thank you 

1424
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:58,120
for being here and sharing your 
story, Ray and, and Kevin for 

1425
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:01,440
being here in the CNN for our 
audience tuning in week after 

1426
01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:01,960
week. 
That's right. 

1427
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:04,600
We've been on every single week 
since the February 4th. 

1428
01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:08,760
So congratulations to us for 
showing up every single week, 

1429
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:11,080
even when we don't feel like it.
And. 

1430
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:17,400
Yeah, but you know, for our 
audience and for those that are 

1431
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:19,600
listening and anybody that 
wanted to participate and have 

1432
01:19:19,600 --> 01:19:24,360
their story heard and shared 
across the world, please e-mail 

1433
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,360
us at 
transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.

1434
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,520
That's 
transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.

1435
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:35,040
And I hope to have your story 
heard and preserved because 

1436
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:38,960
thankfully, thanks to Athena, 
she has uploaded and saved every

1437
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:42,840
single episode to a hard drive, 
which means that we're safe 

1438
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:45,760
forever until they take away the
entire Internet from us. 

1439
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:50,280
So but she has it on a on a hard
drive so it's actually safe even

1440
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:55,640
if then so. 
Hard drives can fail, so you 

1441
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:58,760
know, listeners, if they really 
feel like archiving, can't 

1442
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:00,960
download the project, so you 
know they. 

1443
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:03,600
Can they can or we could do the 
whole CD thing that I wanted to 

1444
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,120
do, but some of these said no. 
It's not. 

1445
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:08,360
We don't need more plastic 
really, do we? 

1446
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:10,680
No, I want to do vinyl records 
that way. 

1447
01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:11,560
You can. 
We don't even. 

1448
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:17,400
Transparent on a vinyl Can you 
imagine having Ray Sunshine's 

1449
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,280
episode on a vinyl poppy to put 
on your on your? 

1450
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:23,120
I would love that that. 
'D be so cool to see if Dana, if

1451
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:27,280
people like that idea. 
Well, if you can afford the 

1452
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:31,000
vinyl press to to do the episode
yourself, that might be the most

1453
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:33,200
cost effective way, but it. 
Would be. 

1454
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:35,800
I'm an effort to do that, you 
know, right? 

1455
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:37,680
I know, I know. 
So it's 100. 

1456
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,120
That's 140 vinyls that I'd have 
to do. 

1457
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:43,320
That's right, because we have 
140 episodes at this point. 

1458
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,480
That's exciting. 
Well, Ray, you know, thank you 

1459
01:20:46,480 --> 01:20:48,280
for being here. 
Kevin, do you have any final 

1460
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:51,160
questions or things or 
questions, thoughts, comments or

1461
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:52,160
concerns? 
I feel like a teacher. 

1462
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:54,080
I asked that. 
Thank you so much for being 

1463
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:55,520
here. 
This was such an amazing 

1464
01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:01,840
conversation that I loved having
with you and just I'm looking 

1465
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:05,000
forward to more videos. 
Thanks. 

1466
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:07,160
Yeah. 
More tick tocks. 

1467
01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:09,880
We love tick tock. 
We love tick tock. 

1468
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:12,320
Especially now I made. 
A I made a thirst trap the other

1469
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:14,280
day, which was the first tick 
tock that I've made in three 

1470
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:16,400
years. 
I didn't post it publicly, but 

1471
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:18,920
it exists. 
So we might get we might get 

1472
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,880
some more tick tock soon. 
Maybe, maybe Kevin can add that 

1473
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:25,720
into this episode. 
I'm kidding, right? 

1474
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:27,840
There's Trav at the end of this 
episode. 

1475
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:28,440
No thank you. 
Well. 

1476
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:30,200
That'd be fun. 
No kidding you. 

1477
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:32,840
Got to front load that stuff 
you're going to bring in the 

1478
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:34,480
audience. 
That's how you bring it. 

1479
01:21:34,480 --> 01:21:35,640
That's how you bring them in the
third. 

1480
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,440
Oh. 
Yeah, there's a gap of a mask 

1481
01:21:38,440 --> 01:21:41,520
presenting person in lingerie. 
Yeah. 

1482
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,320
I think Tina. 
But to each their own. 

1483
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:51,280
Well, we've always wanted to do 
an only fans that we at the end 

1484
01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:54,040
of the trend here of only fans. 
No, not not me. 

1485
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:55,520
Oh, that was. 
Lucy. 

1486
01:21:57,080 --> 01:22:02,840
I wish I could do it like neck 
down but like I still need to 

1487
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:05,960
work as an educator but like I'm
happy to sell neck down for 

1488
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,520
whatever. 
Price I'll sell feet neck. 

1489
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:13,080
I'll send whenever. 
Yes, I think in any final 

1490
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:16,640
thought, any questions you'd 
like to, anything you'd like to 

1491
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:17,720
say? 
Yes. 

1492
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:21,840
I just thank you for sharing 
your experience about like how 

1493
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:26,000
you've, you know, expressed 
yourself through your life, 

1494
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:30,000
where, where you found yourself 
and, and your, your part in 

1495
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:34,000
advocacy and, and being a part 
of the queer and art community. 

1496
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:39,040
Thank you for your time. 
Is there any other part that 

1497
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:42,160
you'd like to to share with us 
as far as like your your wisdom 

1498
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:44,720
as a teacher that you like to 
share with your kids? 

1499
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:48,120
How that's that's a good 
question. 

1500
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:56,200
I think just be who you are. 
That's a great one. 

1501
01:22:57,640 --> 01:22:59,280
That's that's a good one too, 
yeah. 

1502
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:01,160
I like that. 
I have two. 

1503
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:05,600
I have two final questions, 
following up on Athena's when 

1504
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:09,040
when one of your students comes 
up today and says, Ray, it's 

1505
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:13,280
really scary out there. 
It seems like everybody hates us

1506
01:23:13,320 --> 01:23:16,360
and especially the government. 
What do I do? 

1507
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:19,320
What would you say to your 
students that say, well, I don't

1508
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:21,480
know, I'm scared for the future,
what do I do? 

1509
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:28,520
I would say, I know that it's 
scary and I know that we don't 

1510
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:32,240
always know what's going to 
happen, but everything's going 

1511
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:36,960
to be OK. 
And depending on where we're at,

1512
01:23:36,960 --> 01:23:40,000
you can either be who you are or
if you're, if you need to, you 

1513
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,320
can, you know, pretend to be 
somebody else for a while, 

1514
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:45,480
Whatever makes you safest and 
whatever makes you, you know, 

1515
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:47,960
most comfortable in whatever 
space you're in, whatever that 

1516
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:53,840
is. 
But ultimately, you know, it's 

1517
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,720
going to get better. 
And I I truly do believe that 

1518
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:01,960
that it's going to get better. 
Well, again, I just want to 

1519
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,240
thank, you know, Kevin for being
here. 

1520
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,400
Thank you, Kevin for making time
with us. 

1521
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:09,800
And Athena, thank you for taking
the time to be here with us and 

1522
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:11,640
audience. 
Thank you for being here with us

1523
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:15,400
week after week and supporting 
the show and, and being here 

1524
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:18,600
with us and preserving the 
stories of the trans community. 

1525
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:22,080
And Ray Sunshine, thank you so 
much for taking the time to be 

1526
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:23,200
with us today. 
It's been a pleasure. 

1527
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:26,000
And I'm finally, I'm finally 
glad after six months we were 

1528
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:27,640
able to finally get the episode 
out. 

1529
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:30,440
Thank you so much for being so 
patient of. 

1530
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:32,880
Course. 
Yes, absolutely. 

1531
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,560
So as we depart now and carry on
to our week, what's the message 

1532
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,880
that you'd like to leave our 
listeners with to carry into our

1533
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,040
hearts? 
I think I'll echo what I said 

1534
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:45,400
about to the children that just 
be who you are and don't stop 

1535
01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:45,840
fighting.