1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,240 Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to the Trans 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:03,840 Narrative podcast. I'm Caroline. 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,039 On today's episode, we're joined by trans artist and creative's 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,160 Fox Camp and Ryan Clinkin, whose works fans visual art, 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,600 performance and storytelling. Both artists use their craft to 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,440 explore the intersections of identity, emotion, and 7 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,000 transformation, creating pieces that speak to the beauty, grief, 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,240 and resilience of the trans experience. 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,360 Be what you want to be that makes you happy, and spread out 10 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,040 the expression of what it means to be human and push that beyond 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,800 if you want what it means to be human. 12 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,040 And to be clear, any person who is masculine can present, you 13 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,800 know, flamboyantly and effeminately, like without being 14 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,640 gay, you know, it's just traits that we should uphold and we 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,560 should celebrate just as much. In this conversation, we discuss 16 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,280 how expression becomes resistance, how community feels 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,480 creativity, and how trans artistry redefines visibility 18 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,600 and belonging. And joining us once again, Fox 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,880 on the run. There's an old 70, something 20 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,000 like that. Fox Trans Welcome back. 21 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:06,160 Hi, thank you for having me again. 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,960 Thank you for being here. Gosh, I never usually introduce 23 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:12,640 after the fate of the music, but here I am, first time in a 24 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,280 while. Ryan Fox, welcome back to the 25 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,640 trans narrative. It's so good to have you both 26 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,840 here. So glad to be here again and 27 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,400 again. Yes, we love that. 28 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,600 So. So the last time you've been on, 29 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,240 which I don't know when because I, the editor, doesn't tell me 30 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,160 that in advance, how have you all been? 31 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,720 What have you been doing since we've last spoke? 32 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,720 Fox, let's start with you. What have you been up to since 33 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,360 we last had you on? I will pretend it's much longer 34 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,520 time than it's actually been for your editor's sake. 35 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:47,160 No, I was thinking about how how quickly life moves our it's 36 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,120 still June when we're recording this, but I've got booked to. 37 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,840 Place them now. Why'd you tell them that they 38 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,880 spoiled the the the the illusion? 39 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,000 The illusion OK, well, we can cut that out right and just. 40 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,080 No, because I'm going to forget to cut that a little part. 41 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:08,960 OK, I've got some DJ gigs coming up for Pride later on in the 42 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:15,680 summer. I've got a bunch of like I do, I 43 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,880 do work for nonprofits and a lot of like video and editing work 44 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,520 for like government and not exclusively queer nonprofits, 45 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:31,080 but people working in nonprofit space that often helps with like 46 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,840 that overlaps with queer activism or indigenous activism 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,920 and anti poverty. So I've got a lot going on 48 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:43,360 there. Still working on the book. 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,240 Hopefully it's it's happened too close together. 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,560 I want to be like I got the book done. 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,600 But yeah, I'm working on working on our third anomalous 52 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,640 transmissions collection. And yeah, I think that that's it 53 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:59,360 with me. Ryan, where have you been 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,040 getting up to? Kicked off Pride season and have 55 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:08,800 been in drag a lot. Got to do Sea Lord Pride in 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,960 their golf cart parade and performed in the show called Men 57 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,040 At Work. And then coming up in the next 58 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,600 two weeks I have my show that I host, King Awakening and we're 59 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,120 having our showcase for the young baby kings that are coming 60 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,800 up in our community. We do the showcase the month 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,360 after we host a workshop, so it gives them some time to get 62 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,960 their stuff together. And then I'm actually a winner 63 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,600 of a karaoke competition here called Pride Idol. 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,560 So I'll be singing on mainstage for Pride Saint Louis Festival 65 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:50,960 and working with Jordan Braxton on a protest March the Saturday 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,640 of Pride. And then we'll be in the Pride 67 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,360 parade that Sunday. And I had a really good brunch 68 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,640 today with my friend who I haven't gotten to see in a 69 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,600 while, so that was really, really nice. 70 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,040 Love a good brunch? I love a good brunch too. 71 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,400 So Ryan, tell me, how has your relationship with gender change 72 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:15,520 since we last had you on? Gender has been good, gender I 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,640 it's been good. I'm coming up on my one year 74 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,840 post op from getting my hysterectomy done, so I noticed 75 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:25,840 since. Thank you. 76 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:29,480 I, it was, it was a really great decision. 77 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,400 So I finally feel like all my hormones have settled because my 78 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,680 body does not produce any estrogen anymore because I did 79 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,880 a, a total hysterectomy with an opherectomy, which means they 80 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:48,040 removed the ovaries as well. And I feel really settled in 81 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,320 that I healed up really well. I've got minimal scarring from 82 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,400 where they inserted the the scope and the the little 83 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,960 microbot arms that they use everything with. 84 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:02,120 They stick that scope in your belly button, by the way. 85 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,560 Oh, it's like a matrix in a bad way. 86 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:14,080 It kind of so I'm looking. Good way. 87 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,720 But yeah, now I got that bug in my head. 88 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,360 Yeah, I'm looking forward to celebrating my one year post op 89 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,200 for that. And I'm coming up on nine, yeah, 90 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:29,000 nine years on testosterone and in February, which is, you know, 91 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,640 still about 8 months off, but the years seem to be flying by, 92 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,240 honestly. Congratulations. 93 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,480 That's it. Thank you, Fox. 94 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:44,160 How about you, I? Have been moving more and more 95 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:50,200 towards just a full time, identifying full time as a 96 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,800 woman. I think especially when it comes 97 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,280 to CIS hat people outside of the queer community. 98 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,920 I like, I think transition for a lot of us, at least in my case, 99 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,920 like I knew kind of kind of where my my goal and where my 100 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,800 like where dysphoria was pushing me and what kind of my goal for 101 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:22,080 transition was. And I left a lot of grace for 102 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,920 people to kind of like figure that out on their own time. 103 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,000 And part of that was being like, yeah, you can use they them 104 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,360 pronouns. That's fine. 105 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:38,280 And now I'm because then if you do that and you're a trans woman 106 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:40,480 and you're like, sometimes I'm a tomboy, though. 107 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,000 And I'll get people. They will never use she her. 108 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,800 They'll always use they, which is a thing and a feeling and 109 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,160 being like, I don't like that. I think that's, that's a big 110 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:57,560 aspect of it. And also just like I've been on 111 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:05,320 hormones for this year, will be 6 years in October and I'm 112 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,080 finally really happy with what's going on with my body. 113 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,840 Probably for the first time ever, I can look at myself and 114 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,880 put clothes on and be like, I'm very comfortable in this. 115 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:26,480 And, and when I was doing like kind of the long hair, 116 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:32,240 androgynous, but like a mab kind of leaning stuff, I was not also 117 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,160 super comfortable. So that's kind of been a big 118 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,760 change. I think that it's drifting more 119 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,840 towards that identity or moving more towards that identity. 120 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's it. 121 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,520 That's all I can say about that. I have not really had the 122 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,600 opportunity to get some of the some of the surgical 123 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,240 interventions I'd like. Specifically getting hair room 124 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,040 for my face. That would be fantastic. 125 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,680 That's a major source of dysphoria. 126 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,600 But I got nice boobs, so I'll take the trade off. 127 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,360 That was that was free, government supplied. 128 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,600 OK, I'm done. Come on Canada, giving us the 129 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,680 hormones. Yeah, they pay for them in your 130 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,000 low income too. It's great. 131 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,080 As long as you're on the pills. You don't get the shots for 132 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,080 free. Oh, the United States needs to 133 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,120 catch up with that. Yeah, yeah. 134 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,800 We also like not to like be. There's a lot of American 135 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,240 listeners. Canada's healthcare system isn't 136 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,559 perfect, but it does lots of things immeasurably better than 137 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,640 yours. So change that I. 138 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,200 Feel like we've been trying to, but we keep ending up with not 139 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,720 great politicians that keep trying to ban any kind of 140 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,000 healthcare for everybody. Yeah, when a third of your 141 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,080 country is just like, bad luck, better die, you're like kind of 142 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:03,680 screwed. So I have to ask because I 143 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:08,280 prefer the term trans mask for myself but like in public I say 144 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,560 like trans man or trans male. Are you at the point where like 145 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,600 you prefer trans woman over like trans femme? 146 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,440 Yeah. And I think that really depends 147 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,280 on the audience that I'm dealing with. 148 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,440 As far as as far as as far as the general public goes, I 149 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:32,800 prefer to be introduced as a trans woman who is non binary 150 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,760 and is, you know, primarily FEMA presenting. 151 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,520 And like, when you're dealing with queer people, you're 152 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,840 dealing with the LGBTQ community and discussing identity and 153 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:54,200 presentation and transition and like the intersection between 154 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,640 all those things, there's a huge discussion to be had. 155 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,760 But when it's people that you're just introducing to the idea of 156 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,520 transis and like, you know, when you're in trans spaces, queer 157 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,560 spaces, you know, all sorts of trans people and all sorts of 158 00:10:09,560 --> 00:10:12,480 identities. And it's easy, easy, really easy 159 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,120 to forget that most sis have people. 160 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,280 You're the only trans person that they know, they know, you 161 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,080 know. So there's a big, big difference 162 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,640 in between how I mediate identity with the public and how 163 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:35,880 I mediate identity with with queer spaces, in queer spaces. 164 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,880 And part of that's because, yeah, go ahead. 165 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,280 So I so actually, so Ryan, so Ryan, let me ask you this 166 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,960 question. So how has, how has disability 167 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,640 shaped your understanding of masculinity, transness in your 168 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,440 drag performances? Let's kind of get into kind of 169 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,600 what you wanted to talk about today a little bit, which was, 170 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,440 you know, advocacy in the disability community and the 171 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,240 intersection of that within queer and trans community. 172 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,680 So for me personally, I actually only recently was diagnosed with 173 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,640 what we would consider like a disability literally within the 174 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,640 last. Like I don't even think it's 175 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,320 been a full six weeks at this point. 176 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,080 I had a back injury that's now caused me and I got the back 177 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,560 injury almost 10 years ago, but it's caused me to develop 178 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,640 osteoarthritis, other known otherwise known as degenerative 179 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,200 disc disease. I have that. 180 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,720 Yeah, more people have it than I realize, but I'm 26 years old 181 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,960 and when I was looking up a lot of people that do end up getting 182 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:45,640 it, they are not in my age range. 183 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,000 So in my lower lumbar my the cushioning between the discs and 184 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,720 my spine is deteriorating, I hope not rather rapidly, but 185 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,840 rapid enough that it's causing a significant amount of pain, 186 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,440 which actually does not present in my back at all. 187 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,560 It presents all in my left hip and shoots pain all the way down 188 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:11,560 my leg. So there's days that I have to 189 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,880 walk with a cane and there's days that I'm perfectly OK. 190 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,960 And I feel like how that's intersected not only with like 191 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:27,920 how I do drag, but with my trans identity is it's given me, I 192 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:33,240 would even say more community. My best friend Wes is somebody 193 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,240 who was born with a tethered spinal cord. 194 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:43,120 And you know, they are somebody that talks about being trans and 195 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:49,320 disabled and has been such a like perfect person to lean on. 196 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,160 I'm still kind of navigating how this impacts my transness. 197 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,920 But as far as like drag goes, I kind of have to slow it down a 198 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,200 little bit. I'm I go a little hardcore, you 199 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,840 know, getting the windmill windmill donkey kicks in. 200 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,680 I was performing last night and actually did a like from my 201 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:14,080 knees, did a full back bend and got done with a number and said, 202 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,880 oh, I should not have done that. I burnt. 203 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,160 Yeah. So I, I think I'm still just 204 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:29,000 learning how to work my body now, now having like the pain 205 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,400 that I do and the diagnosis that I got. 206 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,680 I have some friends who have like similar degenerative back 207 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:43,240 problems, a little bit older, but like not that much older. 208 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,560 And yeah, it's seeing what they go through and this challenges 209 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:52,440 and accommodations that are required to go through something 210 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,280 like that is a lot. So I feel for you and I really 211 00:13:55,280 --> 00:14:01,040 hope that you've can manage the contours of it without too much 212 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,360 trouble. Yeah, I'm still kind of 213 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,840 struggling at times to consider myself disabled. 214 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,720 I I think we have such a black and white view of what 215 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,120 disabilities are. And so automatically you think 216 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,200 of like somebody always on a cane or always on crutches or 217 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:25,400 always in a wheelchair. But for me, it it with how I 218 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,000 said, you know, I'm sometimes on a cane and sometimes I'm not. 219 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,560 Sometimes I feel like I'm like getting looked at, like I'm 220 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,600 faking it on the days that I don't need my cane and that kind 221 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,960 of stuff. That's a story I've heard a lot 222 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,720 from people who who have disabilities like that, who who 223 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,040 have like what hidden disabilities or whatever they 224 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,960 call invisible disabilities is. Kind of what I've been calling 225 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,600 it. Yeah, where? 226 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,600 Yeah, Sometimes you're totally capable, sometimes you're not. 227 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:04,600 I was in a car accident 09 years or so ago now and I was lucky to 228 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,760 be mostly OK, but there's still like some structural issues that 229 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,360 come up for me. And there are days where like I 230 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,040 will have slept funny or exerted myself the wrong way the day 231 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,280 before. And then just like we're sitting 232 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,520 too long with bad posture and I just cannot, I have to take a 233 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,040 day and just lie in bed and stretch and like, do body care 234 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,960 because otherwise it's not, I won't be functional. 235 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:36,320 I can, I can appreciate that. And also like, I know I've been 236 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,960 in all sorts of different specifically performance venues 237 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,680 because not just for queer people obviously, but like so 238 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,880 many queer, queer performance venues specifically are not 239 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,680 really that accessible because. They're not. 240 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,560 You're putting them wherever you can, you know, like we got cheap 241 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,080 rent on this like 60 year old bar that has a little stage, but 242 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,400 like, you know, it's down a flight of steps and then up a 243 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,840 flight of steps. And no, we can't put a ramp in. 244 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,960 We don't have any money or space or whatever, you know that kind 245 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,320 of. Brian, do you feel there's 246 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,680 pressure within the community to push towards, push through pain 247 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,440 to be seen or validated? How do you resist that? 248 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:32,240 Honestly, I feel like resisting it is actively, you know, 249 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,400 talking about the pain that I face. 250 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,640 I know I'm not the only entertainer in my area that is 251 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,200 disabled. My good friend Vincent Vandal, 252 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:53,200 who's also a drag king, he has EDS Allerdanlow syndrome and 253 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,080 he's been got an amazing support since I got my diagnosis as 254 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,560 well. He Co hosted the trans power 255 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:07,400 hour with me the other day and he said he's made it a point to 256 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,960 at the end of the show, if he's hurting, he's going to come out 257 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,400 on his cane. And he said, you know, I don't 258 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,079 want to hide. I don't want to. 259 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,720 And, and of course I'm you know the gist of what he said. 260 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:25,800 Of course, that he said, I think it's OK to be an entertainer and 261 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,520 present and do what I need to do, but still also talk about 262 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:33,600 how this impacts my body. And you know, him and another 263 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,920 colleague of mine, Moxie Cotton Rose, who has a permanent broken 264 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,560 bone in her foot. It's one of the, I don't know 265 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,720 exactly what bone it is, but it's like it's just never going 266 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,600 to heal is my understanding. And she talks about living with 267 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,080 that as well and the pain that that causes. 268 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,880 I think if we're more open and honest about where we're at 269 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,120 personally, I think it makes more people comfortable to talk 270 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,440 about what kind of pain they're in. 271 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,520 So you said, you know, you, you had mentioned about receiving 272 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,200 your diagnosis recently and I know what that's like because I 273 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,120 had a car accident in 2018. It was only in 2023 that my 274 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,080 doctor was like, oh, well, we found this note from your 275 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,640 accident years ago that said it's this disease. 276 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,200 And I said, oh, that would have been helpful to know, you know, 277 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:34,680 And there was this like, you know, there's like this sense of 278 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:40,200 grief and also a relief. How has, how has naming this 279 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,840 helped you relate to yourself differently? 280 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,360 Understanding what it is that you're actually going through? 281 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:47,280 Because 10 years you've dealt with this, but you've only now 282 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,880 recently come to understand what it is. 283 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,000 Yeah, the pain I felt in the last 10 years, it kind of goes 284 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,560 it's it was on and off until more so this year. 285 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,400 I always had, you know, what I would call flare ups in the 286 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,720 winter. And so you know, I, I always 287 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,760 knew from my previous back injury that my, my back never 288 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,080 healed correctly because my original injury I knocked, I 289 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:19,120 just got a place in my spine and it pressed a nerve that shot 290 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:23,040 pain down my hip. And so I did, you know, X-rays 291 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,720 and Mr. is on my hips and they couldn't find anything. 292 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,040 So I did physical therapy for my spine and in doing excuse me for 293 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,280 my hips and in doing that knocks the two other discs out of place 294 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,920 in my spine. So I had to see, I think it was 295 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,320 four or five different specialists before we found it. 296 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,760 And at that point I was on crutches pretty consistently. 297 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,440 And after they realized that it was my spine and they found the 298 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,880 disc slipped, I was in a back brace for a while. 299 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,000 And then I, I thought it was going to be generally, you know, 300 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:59,480 OK, I was a 1718 years old when this originally happened. 301 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:07,680 And now having the pain that I do, which is more intense than 302 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,600 my original back injury, I was kind of heartbroken because I, I 303 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,120 felt like it's taken a lot out of me, you know, I can't do 304 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:19,200 nearly as much as I used to be able to. 305 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,080 So when my pain started consistently showing up after 306 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:31,680 the winter of this this past winter, I went to my doctor and 307 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,480 I said, look, I don't know what this is. 308 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,360 Can we do X-rays? Can we do Mr. Is? 309 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,080 Can we do whatever we can? And it didn't help. 310 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,360 We had an ice storm here. And I fell on the ice three 311 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,640 times because Saint Louis did such a poor job of like 312 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,120 preparing us for that storm. So I thought maybe, you know, I 313 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:55,200 just slipped another desk. And so we did X-rays on my hips 314 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,160 to make sure that I didn't fracture anything when I fell 315 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,640 and nothing came back. It looked pretty standard. 316 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,920 But when we did the X-rays on my spine, my doctor found the 317 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:14,360 deterioration between the discs and I was relieved to have that 318 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:17,040 diagnosis. Absolutely. 319 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,680 But I've been slowly grieving. What I thought I was going to 320 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,400 spend the rest of my life with in my body because I don't I'm 321 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,400 not harsh on my body by any means unless I'm performing and 322 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:37,880 I go maybe a little too hard. But it's grieving for me on this 323 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,680 has looked a little up and down because I have such an amazing 324 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,040 support system. I feel like I haven't been, you 325 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,640 know, too down on myself, but I still have these moments of, you 326 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,120 know, I won't be able to walk pretty consistently without 327 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:59,240 being in pain. I can't, you know, just go out 328 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,560 and do whatever without taking my pain meds with me. 329 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,520 I usually have to take my pain meds about once or twice a day 330 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,680 to function. And even on the days that I do 331 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,640 have to take it twice, sometimes I'm still in a significant 332 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:19,760 amount of pain. So it's, it's non consistent on 333 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,760 where I'm at. Honestly, I think as soon as 334 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,680 they find you're not able bodied enough to do something that 335 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,480 you're not worth having around. Luckily my my day job doesn't 336 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,640 feel that way. I've been pretty open with them 337 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,400 since getting my diagnosis and and telling them when I'm 338 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,440 having, you know, worse pain days than others of like, hey, I 339 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,400 can't lift this. Like I, I work in a kitchen 340 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,640 right now for a local BBQ chain and I'll, I'll tell them 341 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,440 straight up like I can't lift that 50 LB bag of onions today. 342 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,880 Like if you can get me some help. 343 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,520 So I'm I'm lucky in that aspect, but absolutely, like if you 344 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:07,320 aren't able to put your body through the most, then it's kind 345 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,400 of like get out of the way, which really sucks. 346 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,280 Capitalism just kind of really sucks. 347 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,280 Yeah, what? What kind of care is capitalism 348 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,040 incapable of providing, especially for for people with 349 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,680 disabilities, especially trans people with disabilities? 350 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,760 Exactly. Yeah. 351 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,200 Yeah, I mean. I'm asking you, I was asking 352 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,000 Ryan, like what way? Like what are like, what are 353 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,600 some things that care that that that that that like capitalism 354 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:40,160 is capable of providing like? I'm going to be real, I at this 355 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:48,560 point I'm unsure like I if you're not able bodied enough 356 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:54,640 and you're not sis like I, is there anything that really can 357 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,920 provide? Yeah. 358 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,040 And I think let me. Oh, sorry, go ahead. 359 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,040 I think that really speaks to this. 360 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,280 When we talk about intersectionality, a lot of 361 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,520 people don't really have a great grasp of what that means 362 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,200 specifically. But I think when you start to 363 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,440 talk about like layered exclusion is a really good way 364 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,200 of looking at it. Because maybe you're not able 365 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,280 bodied, but you're CIS hat and you have a specialization that 366 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,640 doesn't require you to do physical labor capitalism. 367 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,480 And you you only have that one intersection. 368 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,200 But the second you know you're queer and disabled, then you 369 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,640 know there might be two different reasons why you won't 370 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,240 get a job that you're otherwise qualified for, right? 371 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,400 Like either if the disability doesn't disqualify you, the fact 372 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,000 that you're queer might be. And if you're queer and black 373 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,360 and disabled, then the first two don't disqualify you, but you 374 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:53,960 might not get hired because you're a black person and you 375 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,480 make this company uncomfortable for whatever reason, right? 376 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,520 And that's a good way to talk about, it's a good way to 377 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,800 understand for people how intersections work. 378 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,760 Sometimes it's like they all interconnect to make life harder 379 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,520 for you. But sometimes when you don't 380 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,160 have the other things that are holding you back, it's enough. 381 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,400 It's something that'll just come in and shut the door for you. 382 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,680 I'm pretty good at having put together diverse spaces. 383 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,800 My, my method, which is not everybody's method, which is to 384 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:31,960 just kind of like, at least in this, this is specifically in 385 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:40,600 the spaces that I moderate, it's been to be tolerant, do the 386 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,480 paradox of tolerance thing where you're tolerance of essentially 387 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:50,400 everything except intolerance and to only step in if there's 388 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,040 like interpersonal conflict or if somebody is like really steps 389 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,760 over a line. And a lot of that comes from 390 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,360 just like I, I am not a rule maker and I don't like enforcing 391 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:05,480 them. So in more organized spaces 392 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,360 where you're dealing with the general public, and this is, you 393 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:15,800 know, a big deal here in queer spaces in Vancouver is being 394 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,120 inclusive and intersectional and having that kind of at the 395 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:26,080 forefront of the organizing style and the inclusion. 396 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:32,440 And like, like we're moving away from exclusively, you know, sis 397 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:38,200 gay bars here. There's still, you know, there's 398 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,440 still, there's still businesses that cater more explicitly 399 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,800 towards like the bath houses that cater specifically towards 400 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,040 primarily sis gay men. But by and large, like the 401 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,280 entertainment, queer entertainment here is a lot more 402 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,200 diverse. People are actively going and 403 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:06,400 seeking out of drag kings and trans mask performers and 404 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,920 specifically trans performers to put and trans people of color to 405 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:22,400 headline their events and kind of more generally be celebrated 406 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,080 directly by the organizations and the venues that that we're 407 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,880 participating in. Instead of just kind of like 408 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,960 trying to fight the cliquishness that can happen. 409 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:39,160 I think when you start to silo identities like that, which is 410 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,520 good. We're also like the disability 411 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,720 conversation that's been been focused on. 412 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,320 There are challenges, absolutely, especially like I 413 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,120 kind of mentioned with venues and things like that, making 414 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:54,280 sure they're accessible can be really, really challenging. 415 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,800 Some of the more prominent trans run spaces in the city do their 416 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,520 best to kind of minimize that, which is really good to see. 417 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,440 I think some of the things that come up for me that are 418 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:18,240 difficult are when you have like competing needs, especially 419 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:24,560 disability needs. Like there's, I don't wear 420 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,040 glasses anymore, but I wore glasses for most of my life and 421 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,840 I was lucky enough to get laser eye surgery. 422 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:37,720 And I have, I still part of that is that like people don't really 423 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,520 think of vision loss and that's how like if you're blind, you're 424 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,640 disabled. But I was like unable to make 425 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,360 out features on my hand like 3 inches in front of my face. 426 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:51,040 So going from that to being in good light, full sight and in 427 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,960 bad light, having a lot of difficulty making things out and 428 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,360 seeing things and then competing with people who have like light 429 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:05,040 sensitivities and trying to, you know, create a space that meets 430 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,520 everybody's needs is play unilaterally is hard. 431 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:19,720 And I think that the best organizing spaces that I've been 432 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:26,120 in are the ones that recognize that every identity and every 433 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:35,000 individual has different accessibility needs or identity 434 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,240 care needs. Whether that's, you know, trans 435 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,000 masked people who have different who have different transition 436 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,160 care requirements from trans feminine people who have 437 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,800 different transition care requirements from non binary 438 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,760 people or like however you fall under the umbrella, whatever 439 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,800 your individual needs are, they don't always overlap and they 440 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:02,040 occasionally conflict. And I think finding space in our 441 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,640 organizations and communities to be grace, to have the grace to 442 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,560 give everybody some time and some space where their needs are 443 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,360 being met and their identities are being centered. 444 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,640 I am so you know, in Fox specifically, you know, your 445 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,880 work critiques media packages for the, you know, queerness for 446 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,320 the masses. So and, and, and in your 447 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,400 performances, Ryan, you know, you've, you've mentioned 448 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,480 performing through pain and reclaiming joy. 449 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,040 I, I wonder, you know, what does gender like? 450 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,920 What does it look like outside of, of these rigid ways? 451 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,120 And more importantly, I guess, Ryan, I want to start with you. 452 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,120 How has how has capitalism specifically shaped, you know, 453 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,200 how you look at how we should dress, speak and and even 454 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:01,120 perform? I think in, in my experience, 455 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:06,520 in, in the masculine experience, at least capitalism is shaped 456 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,760 how we view masculinity is very rigid like it. 457 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,520 And I think that's where we get a lot of our critique of like 458 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,720 effeminate men and like assuming automatically that if you know 459 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,160 you have any effeminate or flamboyant traits, that somebody 460 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,640 is gay. And while, yes, often times that 461 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,520 is true, if you are not meeting that one like rigid, this is 462 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,480 what a man knows and he looks like he's from corporate 463 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,960 America, then it's it's seen as like less valid, if that makes 464 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,240 sense. And that's where I like, I like 465 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,520 to out of drag in drag. I I play with and toy with 466 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,480 effeminate traits all the time. Like I I like to say, you know, 467 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880 in my makeup, yeah, I draw on a mustache and a goatee and some 468 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:58,200 thick ass eyebrows, but I do my eyeshadow more effeminate. 469 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,400 I do, you know, I wear highlighter that like, pops and 470 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:09,200 glitters. I think capitalism really 471 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,320 affected me at the beginning of when I started performing 472 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,560 because I was not doing that nearly as much. 473 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,240 I wasn't putting on the illusion, more of a gay man. 474 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,920 And to be clear, any person who is masculine can present, you 475 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,680 know, flamboyantly and effeminately, like without being 476 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,520 gay. You know, it's just traits that 477 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,600 we should uphold and we should celebrate just as much. 478 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,640 And there's a whole aside of how capitalism has affected, you 479 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,520 know, performance communities because there are some people 480 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,040 that are drag entertainers for a living. 481 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,320 I am unfortunately not one of those people. 482 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,560 That's kind of a hobby that, yeah, I make a good little bit 483 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:56,680 of money here and there. But I if I'm making sense, I 484 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,600 think that's how it affects more of a masculine side. 485 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,480 Yeah. So, you know, Fox as a writer 486 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,720 and storyteller, you know, how do you, how do you build futures 487 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,800 that don't mimic the systems that we're trying to break away 488 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:20,640 from? It's a lot of imagination, I 489 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:26,520 think that. So there's this, this idea when 490 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,800 it comes to capitalism to tie us all together. 491 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,240 Most people can't imagine a world without capitalism, right? 492 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,840 Most people living today, it's it's like this concept called 493 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:42,120 capitalist realism. Even though a lot of people, you 494 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,160 know, hate it, they can't imagine a world where it doesn't 495 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,960 exist. Which is why so much of our like 496 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:57,280 futurism. Science fiction is dystopian in 497 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,080 the way that it is because nobody is. 498 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,280 Very few people at least are looking forward and going. 499 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,760 What does it look like? What for the system look like 500 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,320 without capitalism? There's a couple authors if you 501 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,800 like sci-fi who do it. Kim Stanley Robinson probably 502 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,920 bumps to mind. That's the most obvious example 503 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,400 of a leftist sci-fi writer who who tries to do that. 504 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:28,960 He wrote the Red Mars series, which is about a Mars colony 505 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,840 that goes through a undergoes a revolution and then comes out as 506 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,440 like a socialist society on a planetary scale. 507 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,840 And then there's some subsequent books from that. 508 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,280 And this is actually super relevant. 509 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:46,600 We'll talk about one of his stories is it's like 2312, I 510 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:56,480 think it's called. I'm going to look and it is 511 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,840 2312. So, you know, 300 years in the 512 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,360 future, humanity is essentially colonized the solar system. 513 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:12,680 And for some people who in that world they have like, you know, 514 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,560 when you're a he's again sits that man writing this. 515 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,880 So it's not, you know, coming from a queer perspective 516 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,200 specifically, but the two main characters. 517 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,960 One of them is not openly said but it's neurodivergent and 518 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:32,840 they're both I think 1 was I'm going to use these terms because 519 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,760 it's what I have available. One is AMAB, 1 is AFAB and they 520 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:41,120 both have they both identify with their assigned gender at 521 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:50,800 birth, but they also both had like gender care that provided 522 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,640 them with like the other set of reproductive organs and both had 523 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,920 like sired children and both had born children. 524 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,360 And then when the yeah, this is an adult show, then they fuck 525 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,760 and they do the whole like hermaphrodite kink thing. 526 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,000 Do I want to say that? No, but that's what happens in 527 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,320 the sex. Do I want to say it's kink? 528 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,480 No, but that's what happens in the scene that he writes. 529 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:19,920 He writes and it was read that pretty early on in my transition 530 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,440 and was kind of like he may not get it, but at least, you know, 531 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,800 he's doing something interesting with gender in a society where 532 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,360 like that shit doesn't matter is really, you know, you turn 533 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,400 people people are also living to be hundreds of years old. 534 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,480 They have, you know, brought wide-ranging experiences that 535 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:51,400 are not necessarily focused on how much profit they're 536 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,760 generating for a system, how what the value of their labor 537 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,400 is. And I think like that all 538 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,520 together in a package is such a brilliant vision for an anti 539 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,360 capitalist future and not a capitalism free and not an anti 540 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:15,320 capitalist future, A capitalism free future where like where 541 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,400 hard work is something that you can do if you want to. 542 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,960 But there's just as much value in taking the slow route and 543 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,080 meeting the people and smelling the roses along the way and 544 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:38,000 enjoying the small moments of life and creativity and art and 545 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,360 the pursuit of excellence without the promise of reward. 546 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,360 Yeah. And this book. 547 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:53,000 It's pretty good. They go surfing on like Saturn's 548 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,600 rings or something. It's crazy book. 549 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,920 That sounds really cool. Yeah, it is. 550 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:04,400 It is kind of like the final sequel, I guess, sequel to the 551 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,200 Red Mars series because it's set in the same universe just years 552 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:14,280 later, hundreds of years later. And so when I'm doing my own, 553 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,360 I'm going to, sorry, I'm kind of talking a bit here. 554 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,880 But so when I'm doing my own writing, and I guess this ties a 555 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,160 little bit into the post genderism, which I think I think 556 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:31,160 there's a level to which that we need to abolish the strictures 557 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:38,080 of what you're assigned gender at birth is and what that 558 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,280 implies for you and the pressure put on you by society and the 559 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,400 people in your life to conform to your assigned gender at 560 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,120 birth. I think that we can do without. 561 00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:55,280 I think that I think that a totally androgynous society 562 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,240 would also be boring. So so I don't think that like 563 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,080 gender abolition to the point of saying, well, we no longer have 564 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,920 this like hyper because you know, what would have not to, 565 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,800 what would have drag would kind of cease to exist. 566 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,920 These ideas of these stylized gender performances and playing 567 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,280 with this breadth of human experience. 568 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,320 I don't think flattening that into androgyny. 569 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,960 Think about like gender without identity, like what is gender 570 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,160 without like, what is gender? What is our relationship? 571 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,400 You know, what would drag me in a world that that didn't, you 572 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,680 know, I guess you could say like to modify gender to this sense 573 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,880 of like rigid, rigid rigidity. You know, what would we would we 574 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,200 like? And I don't see this is because 575 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,160 you got to be careful when you do this because this is where 576 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,760 like the turfs come in and they're going to hijack our 577 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,720 language here and then they can turn it against us. 578 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,880 So like this question of like, if we lived in a world where we 579 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,880 were all free to be free of ourselves and we didn't identify 580 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:01,240 ourselves with our genitals or, you know, lack thereof, like. 581 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,120 Would the terms trans and queer and things like that? 582 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,480 What would our relationship to community be, you know, outside 583 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,320 of of that, you know, and, and, and it's of course that just 584 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,760 intersects with everything else. Like what's a world without, you 585 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,920 know, consumerism? What's a world without 586 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,760 colonization? What's a you know, and it's, you 587 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,920 got to start somewhere, right? You know, so it's, it's and, and 588 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,080 I think that, you know, your work Fox really encapsulates 589 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:35,440 like this, this this vision of, of a world that that it's 590 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,920 outside of this and sees humanity as it is and not as a 591 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,520 function of, of somebody else's like need to accumulate late 592 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,960 control, you know. Yeah, I definitely, a lot of my 593 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,760 work right now is, is I think that's the stuff that I'm 594 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,720 specifically working on at this moment is trying to break free 595 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,360 of that. Something I like to think a lot 596 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,560 about is that, you know, any individual has the potential to 597 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,360 become anything right, regardless of where they start. 598 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:16,160 And I think that that is what I would like to see when I 599 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,680 consider the abolition of gender. 600 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:25,960 Like you are born as a human and you do you want to become like, 601 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,800 you know, oh God, I want to use that example. 602 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,200 Do do you want to become like a cool dude bartender and like 603 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,760 come up with new drinks and stuff? 604 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,360 Do you want to become like a badass, sexy, what was the movie 605 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,800 in the 90s Coyote ugly bartender? 606 00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:48,680 Do you want to be somebody who it's like, it doesn't matter, do 607 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,560 what you do What become the person that you want to become 608 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,560 based on this like wide diversity. 609 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,320 But also that might be so like reading over some of the post 610 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,200 genderism stuff and being like, you know, we've, I I'm on board 611 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:12,280 until it gets to like a future where, you know, all 612 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,760 reproduction is done through assisted reproduction as opposed 613 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,080 to people actually having sex for reproduction purposes. 614 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,240 And like there. Yeah. 615 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:28,680 Yeah. The whole, I think the ability 616 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:36,200 for anybody to fill any role in a family or in a society without 617 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,840 being restricted by a gender role that was placed on them 618 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,000 without their consent. That's what I think of when I 619 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:49,680 think of that. It's the involuntary aspect of 620 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,760 it. Yeah, You know, that 621 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,920 fundamentally gets to me. Not that somebody wants to be 622 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:03,200 like a bombshell or a cool dude or a androgynous swamp creature. 623 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,640 Like be what you want to be that makes you happy and like, spread 624 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,800 out the expression of what it means to be human and push that 625 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,080 beyond if you want what it means to be human. 626 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,280 But if that make people angry when you're like. 627 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,120 And specifically, the work I'm working on right now is 628 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,240 ultimately A transhumanist fable because that's where my 629 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:32,120 characters end up is in is in a transhuman form that posts not 630 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,240 even posthuman form. Humans still exists. 631 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,720 We're given the opportunity, you know, even in a world where you 632 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:40,600 could do that, people are still going to choose to be human 633 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,680 because being human is still a beautiful, magical, wonderful 634 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,000 thing. And I don't think that like, I 635 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,400 don't think that deliberately pushing all that away is, is 636 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,000 necessarily the way we should go. 637 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,800 But we, we do need to be in a position of, I've long held the 638 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,000 position that as long as society, society needs to 639 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,000 support the individual in growing and the individual needs 640 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,960 to support society in growing. And if you have that interplay, 641 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,480 then you have healthy communities. 642 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,240 Absolutely. Do you find that a lot of the 643 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:21,160 people that are, you know, saying like just touching on 644 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,120 what you were saying are very similar to the people that are 645 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,440 like, no, can get pride, no leather of pride, that are very 646 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:32,200 uneducated, they're very young, and that they would rather 647 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,400 almost gatekeep in certain ways because they think the community 648 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,040 should look this one specific way or that pride should look 649 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,760 this one specific way. Do you think those are 650 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,600 connected? I think every trans person, 651 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:49,560 every queer person at some point or another has run into whether 652 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,280 it's inter community violence or extra community violence, this 653 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,600 idea or internalized am I queer enough? 654 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,640 Am I trans enough? Does this person not think I'm 655 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,840 trans? Does this person not accept my 656 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:07,720 identity? And you're not alone in that. 657 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:19,280 And I mean like. Even asserting your own needs 658 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,240 and identities around and being like, this is what it means to 659 00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:28,400 me to be a trans woman or this is what you know, this is, these 660 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,320 are the things I do to deal with this for you. 661 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,240 Because for whatever reason, you know, like I have some friends 662 00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:41,640 who who need to like do pretty extreme hair removal that feel 663 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,160 comfortable in their bodies. And I know people who just don't 664 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,760 give a fuck who both identify as trans women and they're both 665 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,120 valid, right? Like the you're both women. 666 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,320 Women have this broad swath. There's no one way to do it. 667 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,080 What it kind of boils down to is like, what, what are you 668 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,160 identifying as and just accepting that? 669 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:09,560 And the, the things that I where I start to kind of go and you 670 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,160 know, I've seen communities where there are trans people 671 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:19,360 going like that person is using the language of transness to 672 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,240 cause harm to the rest of us. And I'm like, I may not like to 673 00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:25,600 hang out with that person, but I'm not going to deny they're 674 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:30,440 transness because, you know, you know, just because they're using 675 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:36,840 terms for themselves. And maybe they're even acting 676 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,840 like chasers, which is totally a thing that can happen within the 677 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,960 trans community where you get trans people fetishizing other 678 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,920 trans people and sexually fetishizing other trans people 679 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,240 and themselves. Or they're doing it because they 680 00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:53,920 want to get attention from, you know, a certain subset, a subset 681 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,920 of the Systec community that they feel will give them 682 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,520 validation. I'm not going to go and tell 683 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,880 that person that they're not trans, so they're not part of 684 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,480 the trans umbrella or that their identity is invalid. 685 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,640 I think there's space to be like, hey, you know, when you go 686 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:22,600 and tell people that you're a slur and you're, or like, you 687 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,280 know, you identify closely with Blanchard's typology or 688 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,040 something like that, and you go, yeah, I. 689 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,080 Think. You're kind of reinforcing and 690 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,360 and then like selling that for money, you're kind of, and 691 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,520 you're like, hey, you know, that's kind of reinforcing a 692 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,240 whole bunch of negative stereotypes about me 693 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,520 specifically. And then people are going to 694 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,440 like that, I think, is a conversation that can be had in 695 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,040 the community without invalidating their identities. 696 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:52,400 I think that the I think that problematic people deserve to be 697 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,320 held accountable as the problematic person that they say 698 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,760 they are. I think that they're owed 699 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,480 because if somebody, because listen, I thought my whole life 700 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,400 to be who I am, damn it. If I'm problematic in some 701 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,120 degree, please address it to me at least as the woman that I am, 702 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,200 right? Like, you know, to invalidate 703 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,200 who I am as a person. That just reinforces again, 704 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,440 these these rigid, you know, heteronormativity of ways of 705 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:18,280 living. So. 706 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can appreciate that. 707 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,160 And especially too like don't misgender people because you 708 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:37,560 disagree with them, right? It's not it's like this the you 709 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:43,880 can't don't punish people by making their inclusion or their 710 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,120 their validation or whatever conditional on people performing 711 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,560 a certain way. Like that is not something that 712 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,920 not something that I was brought up in the trans community to do 713 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:04,960 or brought up as a person to do. And yeah, and I think too, like 714 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,000 not just with TikTok, but real life and other situations, 715 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,680 people will conflate personal conflict with like attacks on 716 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,040 identity and stuff like that. And that is also a big problem. 717 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,120 I, I think, I think anybody who's been in any social, 718 00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:25,160 especially social subcultures for long enough, this isn't just 719 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,800 queer subcultures, but you like run into somebody you don't 720 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,280 like. And then that person is like, or 721 00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,880 like you run into a person you have some conflict with over 722 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,080 something that has nothing to do with your identity or your 723 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,080 intersections. But then it's kind of that it's 724 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,720 kind of becomes about that they're like, in order to harm 725 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:48,480 you, they're like, this person is a transphobe. 726 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,480 They said transphobic things. This person is actually really 727 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:58,040 harmful and bad, but it's just because they don't like you for 728 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,040 whatever reason, or you had a conflict and, and the conflict 729 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:06,120 has nothing to do with this, but in order to like keep you from 730 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,840 community, they will do that kind of thing because they know 731 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:14,800 it's harmful. And yeah, there's this. 732 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,560 Go ahead. One of the things my, my, my 733 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,600 probably greatest and only contribution to the the field of 734 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,360 sociology. But every subculture reproduces 735 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,120 the flaws and features of the dominant culture in unique ways. 736 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,760 That includes queer cultures and, you know, other, other 737 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,160 subcultures like the king community or the furry community 738 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:38,960 or the gaming community or whatever. 739 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,240 They all have unique ways of reproducing, you know, 740 00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:48,080 capitalist, patriarchal, gendered perspectives. 741 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,320 It's not a world without expression. 742 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,960 I think it's a world where expression is no longer like 743 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,320 policed or marketed, you know, like it's it's a space that 744 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:02,160 imagines a world for all of us and can be free without the 745 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:07,680 conditions of what it means to be, you know, and I just have 746 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,960 really enjoyed this conversation today with both of you. 747 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,600 You know, it's been a long time since we've had an episode where 748 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,840 I've talked more than you know, and this is I enjoyed these 749 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,520 panel types episodes and Fox, I've really enjoyed you being 750 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,800 here and Ryan, I've enjoyed you being here and audience, you 751 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,240 know, if you're interested in in participating and having your 752 00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:34,040 voice heard on this program, please e-mail us at 753 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,640 transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com. That's 754 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,720 transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com. And more importantly, I want to 755 00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:44,120 thank the audience for being here and showing up week after 756 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,080 week and giving us your time and your attention and, and 757 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,920 supporting us and being here and, and, and, and helping us 758 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,080 write the trans narrative week after week. 759 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,240 And Ryan, thank you for being here. 760 00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:57,680 Thank us. Thank you for giving us your 761 00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,920 time. Caroline, thank you for having 762 00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,240 me again. I enjoyed our last podcast 763 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:03,920 together and I really enjoyed this one. 764 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,480 Well, thank you for being here, Fox. 765 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,800 Fox can thank you so much for returning once more. 766 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,360 I appreciate my pleasure. Thank you. 767 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:13,400 It's. Nice to get to chat with you 768 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:14,880 too, Ryan. It was really interesting to 769 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,600 hear it was. Great to meet you, Fox. 770 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:22,360 Yeah. So we've both all of us have 771 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:27,720 kind of talked about like this expansiveness within us this 772 00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:33,160 yearning to at least for me to, to, to be free from the confines 773 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,600 of what the system demands from us. 774 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,960 And I want to ask both of you before we depart, I think, I 775 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:47,320 think I'll ask Fox 1st and then Ryan in one sentence. 776 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,600 What? Who are you becoming in this 777 00:52:53,600 --> 00:53:00,040 moment right now? Wow, that's so hard. 778 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,160 See, Ryan, you have to think about it. 779 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,440 Yeah, you put me on the spot, I think. 780 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:14,880 I think I'm really kind of growing into what the witches 781 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:20,160 witches would call a Crone role. Kind of like I've, I've turned 782 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:31,040 40 this year and I'm really focused on creating healthy, 783 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:36,360 supportive structures for the people who I care about in 784 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,840 communities that I care about and providing, you know, 785 00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,640 knowledge and guidance and support and hopefully material 786 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,440 support. And that's kind of, you know, a 787 00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:55,560 big departure from being younger and more aggressive in terms of 788 00:53:55,560 --> 00:54:00,480 fighting for like getting people to see my way. 789 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,360 Exactly. And, you know, going out and 790 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,360 yelling for change instead of planting a garden and, and 791 00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,200 nurturing it. That's been a big shift. 792 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:15,640 I think both obviously have their place and I don't at all 793 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,200 regret where I've been or like, and I absolutely support people 794 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,720 who are still on that journey because it takes the whole 795 00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,760 community to do to empower change. 796 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,480 But I think that's been the real shift for me lately is moving 797 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:38,320 into more of a like responsible role as opposed to a little bit 798 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:39,760 more of a wild card role. How? 799 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:50,280 About you, Ryan. Oh, I think, oh, this is a too 800 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,320 broad of a question for such a specific answer. 801 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,760 But I'm working on being probably disabled and being that 802 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,080 visibility as a trans person, as a drag entertainer, as a 803 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:09,760 community leader and like as a, as a like trans mask person. 804 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:17,440 Specifically being that visible reminder for somebody else or 805 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:22,880 that visible person for somebody else that they can say like, oh, 806 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,280 he's making it through. I can do that too. 807 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,240 I think that's where I'm going with things. 808 00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:35,000 Yes, inspiration time. Brian Cox, audience, thank you 809 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,920 all for being here and and giving us your time. 810 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:43,200 And before we go briefly, Fox, what is the message that you'd 811 00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,720 like to leave our audience with as we carry on into this week? 812 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,480 Yeah, go out there, be weird, be yourself, let your freak flag 813 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,480 fly. Create the life you want and the 814 00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,160 body you want and the personality you want and 815 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,400 celebrate it. Because you are literally one in 816 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,520 a billion. There'll never be another one 817 00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:07,880 like you and you need to honor. That Ryan what's what would you 818 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,440 like to leave our audience with? You're the, you know, fade us 819 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,320 off into our music. What's What would you like to 820 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,440 leave our audience with? Oh my favorite go to always is 821 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,800 be gay, do crime but don't actually get in trouble. 822 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,960 Just be gay, be happy, be queerly yourself. 823 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,520 Like just go out and don't let anybody get you down.