1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,840 Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Trans 2 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:04,080 Narrative Podcast. I'm Caroline, and today I'm 3 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,880 joined with Kevin. Hello, Kevin, also known as Sky 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,880 Spectrum. Welcome. 5 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,040 Hello wonderful people out there. 6 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,240 It's good to have you. Thank you for being here and 7 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,920 joining us all the way back from Season 2. 8 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,120 It's Fox. Can't welcome back. 9 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,400 Hi, thank you. It's really nice to be here. 10 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,280 Thank you for being here. And today joining us, our very 11 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,920 special guest, it's Vega, also known as gender fluid, a cap 12 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,320 solid on TikTok. Hello and welcome. 13 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,280 Thank you for being here. Hi, thank you. 14 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,440 So before we get started, I'm going to a little bit about 15 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,920 Vega. So Vega, also known as gender 16 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,720 fluid, a cap solid on TikTok, is a trans family, non binary, 17 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,080 gender fluid, digital artist, gamer and film enthusiast. 18 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,320 Their channel features a blend of comedy sketches, personal 19 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,400 vlogs and sharp transcendered media analysis. 20 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,160 Whether they're deep diving Hawk classic or joyfully unpacking 21 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,440 queer representation, Vega always brings curiosity lit in a 22 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,880 vibrance vibrant lens of lived experience. 23 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,680 Most recently, they've been exploring a trans character in 24 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,240 the world of Severance to a fanfic miniseries that blends 25 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,880 identity, world building, and storytelling with heart. 26 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,920 Vega, thank you so much for being here. 27 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:29,120 Thank you for having me. Welcome to the trans narrative 28 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,920 podcast. I am Fox can't Co hosting today 29 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,760 with Carolyn Penny and Kevin Warner. 30 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,920 We're interviewing Vega, who is a trans creator on TikTok and 31 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,640 we're talking about their background and their fanfic mini 32 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,320 series about trans identity in the world of severance. 33 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,640 So I'm just going to kick it off with going right back to the 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,480 beginning. Where did you grow up and what 35 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,680 was your early life like? Vega. 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:04,640 Yeah, I grew up in Phoenix, AZ and I'm a 90s kid, so early life 37 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:11,920 was very 90s in that way. Wasn't fully like into my queer 38 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,080 identity during that time period. 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:20,000 It's a rough time in a way to be queer in the 90s and young, but 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,240 I was pretty creative kid, fairly extroverted. 41 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,720 I was always the class clown, I think. 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,000 And I feel like that energy has been rediscovered through my 43 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,800 like TikTok videos. I've really enjoyed that aspect 44 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,280 of TikTok and getting to sort of like rediscover that slice of my 45 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:49,320 identity outside of having to mask or be in a closet during 46 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,320 the 6th grade, for example. Yeah. 47 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,640 In your early childhood, like from teachers that were like, 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:58,880 you know. Oh, I. 49 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,960 Was in Arizona like, you know, did they encourage you or they 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,520 were like. I mean, I was deeply, deeply in 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,400 the closet. I did not know there was an 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:16,640 eggshell for so much of my life. But when I like for some people, 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,360 you know, they've always known they were trans. 54 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,240 I didn't specifically know that I was queer. 55 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,520 I just knew that like, oh, I liked girls, so I must be 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,880 straight and I'm not a girl, I think, so I must be a boy. 57 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,920 And that's basically like the template that I kind of fit in 58 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,520 my teachers. We're all pretty great in 59 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:43,000 fostering creativity and I was lucky that I never experience 60 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,560 sort of a toxicity that might have kept me in the closet. 61 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,480 And well, that's not true. I mean, you know, the F word was 62 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,480 big in the 90s to be used at all times and calling everything gay 63 00:03:54,880 --> 00:04:02,960 that was bad was in in style. So that was mostly my experience 64 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,560 in like grade school and stuff and and even throughout high 65 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,880 school didn't feel fully comfortable to begin exploring 66 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,920 my queerness till, you know, college and well after. 67 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,800 That that's a familiar feeling also, I think. 68 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,079 Are we all 90s kids here? Yeah. 69 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,200 I think so. I mean, I was, you know, I was 70 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,760 born in the 80s, but I, I was still a 90s kid. 71 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was, I was 85, right. 72 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,760 So like I was starting elementary school in 1990 and 73 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,960 that, that whole experience that, that even like I'm, I grew 74 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,320 up in Vancouver, Canada, but listening to people talk about 75 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,080 their experience in the 90s in the US is so similar. 76 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,640 Yeah, I'm 88, so yeah. Yeah. 77 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,920 We're all so Caroline's a little younger. 78 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,240 So at what point did you start to have the storytelling and 79 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,920 media analysis become part of your life? 80 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,520 Was that something that happened early? 81 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:08,000 Gosh, it wasn't really until I had kind of a wake up call about 82 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:16,320 who I was as a person around like 20/12/2013 and began to do 83 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,720 a lot of unpacking and unpacking that toxicity that I was sort of 84 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,920 steeped in, like not fully embracing my masculinity in any 85 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,320 like way that I felt was my own. And so it was only when I began 86 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:37,000 to sort of look inward that I found a lot of joy in media 87 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,280 critique in that way. And I think that that kind of 88 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:46,160 naturally like there were directly correlative in that way 89 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,880 that like the more I looked inward, the more I found, you 90 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,800 know, examining media, movies, games, etcetera, with like a 91 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,880 finer and finer lens and finding ways that like my identity maps 92 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,440 to that. And I don't think it's a 93 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,480 coincidence then, you know, I eventually came out after 94 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,360 allowing myself to to appreciate art in new ways. 95 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,200 Was that I guess? Was that after college then? 96 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,280 Yes, yes. So what did you study out of 97 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:20,040 curiosity? So I went in to be a biomedical 98 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:25,760 engineer at a like, like an engineering school in Cleveland. 99 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,480 And that didn't last long because it's very hard. 100 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:35,640 And I was convinced by my peers to enter Compsci. 101 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:42,040 So I'm a computer scientist, Typical trans femme experience, 102 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:48,000 I know. And yeah, so I got my degree in 103 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,760 computer science. I'm not great at it, but I do 104 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,240 love the sort of programming and and math aspect of it. 105 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,400 I've always liked math. And then following that, I got 106 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,880 another degree in game art and animation and pursued a career 107 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,240 in the game industry as a digital artist. 108 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,960 What? What was that path like in terms 109 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,760 of the gaming industry? It's rough. 110 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,680 The school I went to was a private for profit school. 111 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,960 I don't want to blast it on here as predatory, but like there are 112 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,200 a lot of schools like that and it's difficult to kind of 113 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,320 promise entry into such a like cut throat industry. 114 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:42,000 But I was lucky and that I already was fairly artistic, 115 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,320 drew all the time as a child, tons of drawings and paintings. 116 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,920 And so I already had a sort of a natural knack. 117 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,360 And then, you know, having a degree in computer science 118 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,800 before that kind of equipped me well to sort of enter the indie 119 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,920 gaming sphere where I've developed a a couple things. 120 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,040 Or like what specifically help shape your early understanding 121 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,560 of queerness? Or like identity in general? 122 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,800 I would have to. So if you chart sort of my 123 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,720 journey being in the indie sphere put me in contact with 124 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,960 and with a lot of queer developers. 125 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:32,039 And, you know, I created my Twitter account thinking like, 126 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:35,159 OK, this is going to bolster my career. 127 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:38,080 I'm going to like make so many connections and, and really 128 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,080 break into that industry. And the connections I was making 129 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,760 were a lot of queer devs. And so having that exposure 130 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,560 really started to open my mind seeing non binary folks for the 131 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:53,600 first time on Twitter and being like, what does that even mean? 132 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:58,520 How can someone even be, you know, non binary and like truly 133 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,520 feeling completely like new to this concept, not not knowing 134 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,680 that I would understand that to, you know, be how I identify. 135 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:14,360 So really it was it was inadvertently finding the early 136 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,520 start of my community. I have to answer your question. 137 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,080 So you didn't really have a ton of relationship to queerness 138 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,880 kind of before that, getting involved online and and meeting 139 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,680 an overt queer community. Correct. 140 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:37,720 At the time I was married and my wife was, you know, like like 141 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,400 many men, my only like access to friends and social circles. 142 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:49,360 I depended on her in that way. And when I started to sort of 143 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:55,360 carve out my own sort of social circle, which was on Twitter, it 144 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,400 was it surprisingly was filled with trans people. 145 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,040 Google knows before you do. Yeah, exactly. 146 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:03,840 Yeah, OK. That's. 147 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,800 Super annoying. Yeah, that's, that's really 148 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,160 interesting. I, I, I, my story's a little 149 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,120 different because I spent a lot of time running away from that 150 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,320 identity a little bit. It's like I grew up in, I grew 151 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,960 up in Vancouver and like even my high school had like a group of 152 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,680 kind of in the alternative Mayo, there was a group of like openly 153 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:32,320 queer people. One of them asked me out in high 154 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,520 school and that was like horrifying. 155 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:42,080 Not that I was like, not not horrifying in the sense that I'm 156 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,240 homophobic, but horrifying in the sense that this is in the 157 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,880 middle of school. There are people everywhere. 158 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,160 If I, you know, I've been bullied about bullied over this 159 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,120 for like my whole life. So if I say yes to this, then, 160 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,560 you know, like my life might be over. 161 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:05,120 Oh my goodness. Being put on the spot in such a 162 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,760 public way was really challenging anyways, But I also 163 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,200 really can relate to being in a, in an apparently sis, that 164 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:22,080 relationship where you start to try to explore those things and 165 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,800 suddenly you're like, oh, that's what this is that that's a hard 166 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,480 place to come from. So I really like feel for you 167 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,000 because it can I guess that relationship has ended now and 168 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,320 you kinda. Yeah, yeah, she's my ex-wife 169 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,360 now, but we're still besties. Like we talk all the time. 170 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,800 She's been my like biggest cheerleader from the start. 171 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,640 It was her wardrobe that I was able to to try on at her 172 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,000 encouragement. She was like excited about all 173 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,440 that. It just eventually we discovered 174 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:58,920 that we were kind of incompatible. 175 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,640 She she had expressed it like she felt so much. 176 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,840 There was a lot. It was a lot of pain and hurt. 177 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:11,640 Of course, ending a 16 year relationship at that point I can 178 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:13,960 imagine. It would be tough, yeah. 179 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,480 Yeah, and we had, we had known each other longer than we hadn't 180 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:23,440 at that point, you know. But at the time, she expressed 181 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,520 like, feeling like, I feel like I'm being transphobic by not 182 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,400 like, finding you attractive anymore. 183 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,760 And I'm like, actually it's very affirming and a tragic way. 184 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,240 Like, you don't see me as a man anymore. 185 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,440 And this was before I'd even be on hormones. 186 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,000 It's just like she it got, she got it. 187 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,400 It clicked to her and you know, we had to kind of resolve 188 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,160 things, move forward in a new direction. 189 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,560 That's one of the things that I think gets, you know, you 190 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,360 mentioned her being like, I don't want to be transphobic. 191 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,040 I think that's one of the things that gets really, like lost a 192 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,600 bit in these transition narratives where it makes 193 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:11,560 everybody around you reassess their relationship to queerness 194 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,720 when somebody comes out. Because it might be like, I had 195 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:21,200 this conversation with my cousin about a year after I'd started 196 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,920 transitioning and she was like, I used to be the only girl in 197 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,520 the family and now I'm not. And that, you know, I'm really 198 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,560 happy to have you and it's not an issue, but it's changed how 199 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:36,080 my circle of relations works. And you know, if it's, you know, 200 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,200 in the case that you're dating, dating a straight woman and 201 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,400 they're like, I'm not attracted to you because you're also a 202 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,720 woman and I'm straight. And that's, you know, like that 203 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:52,840 that person's had to go through the similar kind of, I like 204 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,200 reframing of their identity and questioning of their identity. 205 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,320 She almost felt like she was coming out as straight to me. 206 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:04,000 That's funny. Like I have something to confess 207 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,960 that you know. Exactly. 208 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:14,280 I came out as bi before coming out as trans, and I think that 209 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,720 like going back to you know what, who or what maybe kind of 210 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,200 inspired my early journey. That would definitely be Oscar 211 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,680 Isaac in Star Wars. That was the moment I was like, 212 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,960 I'm not straight. I I'm feeling things for this 213 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,640 man. He's so handsome back in 2015. 214 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:40,800 And it was welcome, obviously. I mean, she was thrilled. 215 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:46,560 Like, oh, my husband is bi. I like, I've levelled up. 216 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,240 And eventually, you know, like, as all things, as all queer 217 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,240 journeys do that. That was kind of a central part 218 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,040 in me discovering my transness as well. 219 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,200 It's my relationship to gender, right? 220 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,520 Like as soon as you begin unpacking your outward like 221 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,240 relationship to it, you start to look inward eventually. 222 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,480 Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I that I think I'm going 223 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,920 to jump off the Oscar Isaac thing because yeah, I don't 224 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,560 blame you. He's a very pretty man. 225 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,560 Have you seen, did you see him in the Robin Hood movie from 226 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,840 like the early to It's one of his early roles. 227 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:27,360 He plays Prince John and he's such like, he's terrible, but 228 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,680 also very pretty. I'll look it up for that, the 229 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,480 plot. I'll watch it for the plot. 230 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,520 And and yes, the plot. And also, sorry I'm getting way 231 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:43,680 off where I wanted to go with this but oh women in armor. 232 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,800 Good movie. So to, to go off of that, that 233 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,160 like how we come through these realizations through media. 234 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,360 Were there stories or characters that you kind of felt yourself 235 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,960 drawn to even even at a young age, before you had the language 236 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,080 to describe your sexuality or gender, where you it made you 237 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,520 feel things and you didn't know why? 238 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,600 Yeah. Big surprise, I was a super fan 239 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,160 of The Matrix for the cool action parts and nothing else. 240 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,320 Truly to the point where I for like a year in high school, I 241 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,760 was watching The Matrix on Monday, Reloaded on Wednesdays, 242 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,640 and Revolutions on Fridays. Like just like after school put 243 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,080 it on. It's my comfort movie. 244 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:42,080 Yeah, and I, I suppose looking back at, you know, I've related 245 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,040 to the sort of the thing that everybody relates to when they 246 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,520 do love the Matrix. It's just a it's a movie about 247 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,120 finding yourself. You know, the Oracle points to 248 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,000 the sign above her entryway that says know thyself. 249 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:00,000 My my yearbook quote was Morpheus line. 250 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,480 There's a difference between knowing the path and walking it. 251 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,880 So like I was clawing at the inside of that egg fell. 252 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,160 I just didn't know like at the time, of course. 253 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:14,880 And it's been such like, it's so gratifying and thrilling to to 254 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,839 look back on all those things that maybe you didn't know 255 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,960 where, where bread crumbs, but being like, Oh yeah, the signs 256 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,440 were there. Like the the Matrix sort of been 257 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,360 the the biggest influence I suppose, even though I didn't 258 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:32,960 know it at the time. Yeah, that seems pretty common. 259 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,320 I definitely, I was looking at photos of myself from like 2000 260 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,680 and four, 2005 and showing them to my one of my girlfriends and 261 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,960 like you, you look like you're an extra from the Matrix. 262 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,880 And I'm like, yeah, weird that that is the case. 263 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,080 I definitely remember to because rumors about the Wachowski's 264 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,600 we're around even then and I remember being like 2005, 2006, 265 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,640 2007 and going, oh, good for them, you know, like happy for 266 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,400 them. Did it really reframe my 267 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,880 perception of the movie? No, what what what I eventually 268 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,000 went and watched Bound. And if you haven't seen, Bound. 269 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,280 Bound is amazing. I have not and I've it's been on 270 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,080 my to watch list for so long I I'm ready to. 271 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,120 I tied up one of my girlfriends and made her watch it for her 272 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,400 birthday. It's. 273 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,080 Just a themed viewing. Yeah, exactly. 274 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,280 And I mean, I was like 10 minutes in and I was like, there 275 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,720 was no way this movie was made by two CIS men. 276 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,440 Not a chance. So like, if you were paying 277 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,200 enough attention, but yeah, that's, that's OK. 278 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,640 Cool. That's a good starting point. 279 00:18:50,520 --> 00:19:00,360 Mine was probably the secret world of Alex Mack which is like 280 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,320 an early Nick show about this girl who can like they use the 281 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,640 the CGI from Terminator two or the T1000 turns into the silver 282 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,040 goo thing and then reconstitutes so she could like melt herself 283 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:18,040 into this goo puddle and then like reform herself and like. 284 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,560 She'd always like slip under doors, right? 285 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's this whole like shape 286 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:28,200 shifting kind of tomboy thing was like, could I be that? 287 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:31,360 Yeah. How about you, Kevin? 288 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:33,080 Did you have anything like that? Yeah. 289 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,920 I mean, I think I'm a little different in terms because I 290 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:42,160 just look like musicals. And so mine was Peter Pan, the 291 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:49,120 like the original, like Mary Martin version and just like 292 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:56,760 seeing like clearly a woman but play a boy role. 293 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,280 And everyone like just like accepted it. 294 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,200 And I thought that like, I didn't understand it at the 295 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,680 time. I didn't like, you know, 296 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,680 understand the concept of like how it would relate to me going 297 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,200 forward. Like looking at it again and I'm 298 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,160 like, yeah, that was totally probably the, the, you know, the 299 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,840 origin, I would say. OK, Vega, So what drew you to 300 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,800 TikTok? What was the thing that got you 301 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,640 on the platform and what was the process of finding your voice 302 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,400 there? I was quite vehemently opposed 303 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,600 to having a TikTok for the longest time at the time my wife 304 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,040 had one. And so I was like, I'm going to 305 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,360 enjoy to talk through her. She'll be like whatever she 306 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,480 likes, she can show me. But I know that it's going to 307 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,400 like wreck my life, like it's going to suck time for me. 308 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:59,800 And it it kind of does. But it wasn't until right after 309 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,680 our our separation is when I got an account in that way. 310 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:11,480 And it was it was lovely to build my own for you page then 311 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,960 and sort of let like when I got on there, I'm like, OK, 312 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:19,800 algorithm witness me, you know, like I'm like freshly out. 313 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,400 Let's see what you make of this. And it was kind of empowering in 314 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,280 a way. It's sort of like, you know, an 315 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,480 algorithm is witnessing you. And I was curious about how like 316 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,720 my interests and identity had been shaped in just that short 317 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,440 amount of time because I had come out in 2021 and we 318 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,040 separated in 22. So I'd only really been out of 319 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,880 here in that time. I'd only gotten my ears pierced 320 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,840 as like a way of of our gender presentation. 321 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:59,160 And I was trying to close and it wasn't long before, not that I 322 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,480 was letting take talk, make decisions for me, but it wasn't 323 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,840 long before I was like, OK, I want to get on HRT. 324 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,880 Like I'm seeing too many happy faces and like this is exciting. 325 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,600 I like I, you know why I resonate with that in the sense 326 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,720 that I just had that yearning and one day I was just thinking, 327 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,160 I really think I need to take HRT. 328 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,400 And I called Planned Parenthood and they were like, well, we 329 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,040 have an opening at 1:00 PM. You want to come in? 330 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,720 And I was like, oh, OK. And then I came in and they were 331 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,120 like, OK, here's your estrogen. And I was like, oh, wow. 332 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:33,800 That all happened. Like I was not wow. 333 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,840 And so there I was. And that's how it. 334 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,880 Just was like, you just, you know, you just feel it. 335 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,400 When it's time, it's time. Yeah, that was the same for me. 336 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,680 It was like, I'm like, you know what, I need a PCP anyway, I 337 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,440 should get on that. And then I did. 338 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,960 And then the day that like I met my PCP, I was like, I want to 339 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,520 start HRT. And it was basically the same 340 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,960 day signed some, you know, form saying like, I know what I'm 341 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,120 doing, I know what I feel. And I was thrilled. 342 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:03,120 It was. It was the best. 343 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,080 Yeah, I had a pretty similar fairly easy path as well. 344 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,880 Went, went to gender clinic here in Vancouver and then they were 345 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,120 like, well, you can see a doctor through US. 346 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:19,080 It'll be 6 months, but we can call like a local primary care 347 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,520 and see if we can get you in sooner. 348 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,720 And then that was a Thursday and I had an appointment on Monday. 349 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,360 And the other doctor was like, yeah, here you go. 350 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,720 I didn't, I think I started, I started blockers and I started 351 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,880 estrogen like a six weeks later. But I was like, I'm going to 352 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,960 start on Halloween. So I have a really great, great 353 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,280 day day. I can call my, my HRT 354 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,920 anniversary, which has worked out. 355 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:51,200 It's a really good one. So you how long have you been 356 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:59,280 creating on TikTok? I think since like late 2022, my 357 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:05,080 early stuff is very like floundering, though I don't 358 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,600 quite yet have like what I want to talk about how I want to 359 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:13,200 direct my channel. It's a little cringe, but I 360 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,320 wouldn't I would say that like I've really come into my own in 361 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,760 the last year in terms of like this is this is the direction I 362 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,520 want to go. I want to spark positivity and I 363 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,440 don't really want to engage in discourse and drama because 364 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,440 there's bigger accounts that do that much better than I do. 365 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:36,240 And I want like, I want to in seeing my for you page sort of 366 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,280 really like lock down and become very curated. 367 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,520 I was like, OK, this is something I want to see. 368 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,480 I want to see like media analysis come from a like a 369 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,480 queer lens. And I hope that I can supply 370 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,240 that. Like, you know, there's trans 371 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,360 affirmation TikTok and, you know, make up TikTok. 372 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,840 And like, there's all these different slices of of queer 373 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:04,760 TikTok that are great and wonderful, but that was really 374 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,600 sort of inspiring. The most I think was this is 375 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,880 like realizing, oh, this is what I can contribute to this space 376 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,040 and really make it my own. Yeah, I think that's something 377 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,040 that I mean two parts to this next bit, but I think that's 378 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,880 something that I found as well as a a queer creator is 379 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,000 especially a trans creator and you're like this before you 380 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,600 start. There's not that many trans 381 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,120 people out there. I have to cover everything all 382 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:35,560 the time. And also I'm transitioning in 383 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,280 the public eye, which is something that like I did too. 384 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,640 And if you go back to my YouTube channel, there's like 5 or 6 385 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,400 years of like videos where you can just kind of watch that 386 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,720 happen. And and while you're trying to 387 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,080 discover yourself as an artist and not just that, but 388 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,880 navigating social media platform that's, you know, a new Tik 389 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,880 Tok's a pretty new form of filmmaking. 390 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,800 So yeah, it's takes time and sounds like you had kind of that 391 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,520 same journey of being like, what do, What's my focus? 392 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,520 Right when I was watching TikTok through my wife at the time, the 393 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,600 app was like the dancing app, the like lip syncing app. 394 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,760 And in that time, I've seen a lot of creators sort of come 395 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,480 into the like into the spotlight offering a lot more than that. 396 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,600 And that was also inspiring. Like I had had sort of, I have 397 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,520 like a Google doc of YouTube scripts that I would, you know, 398 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,480 I'm thinking like, oh, I'd love to have a YouTube channel and 399 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,480 these are the things I talk about. 400 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,720 And it's also daunting in a way because there's almost a certain 401 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,400 like production value you have to be if you want to reach a 402 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,920 wide enough audience on YouTube. And in the case of TikTok, I was 403 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,960 like, I was floored at how accessible the app was. 404 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:01,840 It's just like, oh, the editing is in there. 405 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,680 The like the green screen effect is in there, the audio and all 406 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:11,040 that is, is like out the box. And that was really exciting 407 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,760 because that coupled with the sort of like, like there's a, 408 00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:19,680 like a, a notion that like, oh, it's a TikTok. 409 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,160 It doesn't have to be high budget in a way, like I can get 410 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,760 away with kind of some fun low budget editing or whatever. 411 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,080 And that makes it a lot easier for me to take the scripts I've 412 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:37,240 written and put them to, to film in a way that in a it's just a 413 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,000 lot, a lot less of a barrier, which has been exciting. 414 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:46,440 So you kind of talked about how media analysis was where you 415 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,440 found your focus. Is that what kind of 416 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,120 specifically what kind of content feels most meaningful or 417 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,160 fun for you to make? Well, those are two very 418 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,760 different things. Yeah, I mean, so I've started to 419 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,120 really dig into like film analysis through a queer lens, 420 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,480 which is something I'd already been doing, you know, in my life 421 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:16,320 for a year or two. And I I love watching films with 422 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,520 friends who haven't seen it already because it gives me the 423 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,480 chance to experience it for the first time all over again. 424 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,760 And kind of workshopping the thoughts I have about a film and 425 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,840 bouncing them off of of people who, you know, for The Who, for 426 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,520 them, it's their first time. And since obviously coming out, 427 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,560 my queer circle with friends has exploded, and now I have the 428 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,520 opportunity to share my favorite things with them and see how 429 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,040 they feel about them. And so sorry. 430 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,240 I'm sorry, what was the question? 431 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,200 I got a little. Yeah, the the question was what 432 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,520 kind of content feels most meaningful. 433 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,840 Oh yes. Or fun for you to make. 434 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,360 Right. And so I think that that my 435 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,000 media critiques, my film critiques something that I'm 436 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,840 really starting to to draw a lot of fulfillment out of. 437 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:08,720 I also get a lot of fulfillment, fulfillment out of sort of the 438 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,640 like role play script delivery of like character A talking to 439 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,840 character B. And it's sort of like not quite 440 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,880 short film, but not quite, I don't know, content, you know, 441 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,800 like threading that needle between content and arts on the 442 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,200 app, which is always so difficult. 443 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,920 But things like my, you know, my sort of fanfic about a character 444 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,960 within the world of Severance is allowing me to explore like sort 445 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,280 of a little short film making, kind of scratching that little 446 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,880 like, itch. So that project is happening on 447 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,680 TikTok. You're kind of doing dialogue 448 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,840 between the the indie and the Audi. 449 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,080 Is that how it's framed? So I'm like still filming 450 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,240 episode 3. I've written out to like episode 451 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,280 8. Filming is difficult because I 452 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,880 play like every character in the in the the short. 453 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,280 But currently it's like every odd episode is from the innies 454 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,880 point of view and every even episode is from the Audi's point 455 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,200 of view bouncing back and sort of like rehashing what happens 456 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,280 outside versus what happens inside the office. 457 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,840 And the way that those two characters, because they cannot 458 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,280 communicate, just like they can't communicate in the show, 459 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,320 they can't send each other messages or or anything finding 460 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,560 that like they are actually communicating because their 461 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,240 identities are being explored. Like the the character Val 462 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,800 Valerie in the first episode of of my like sort of miniseries, 463 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:48,120 she hurt her any understands that she's not who they've 464 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,960 assigned her as. Like it's her first day on the 465 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,200 job and she's like, no, something's wrong because she 466 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,720 kind of has the freedom to be a little bit more. 467 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,680 She, she doesn't have the lived life of 30 something years 468 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,400 attached to this, this box that she's been put in. 469 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,320 This is all new to her. And immediately she's like, 470 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,000 what's with the suit and tie? I don't get it. 471 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,480 I, I'm vibing more with my, you know, female Co worker. 472 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,840 What's that about? And so the message that she ends 473 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,400 up sending to her Audi is simply the realization of who she is. 474 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,360 Like that internal like epiphany is what manages to reach her 475 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,600 Audi. And then exploring like the 476 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,960 Audi, her Audi has actually felt that way as well, but just 477 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,840 hasn't had the the courage or the like support network or or, 478 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,280 you know, the framework and language to express that. 479 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,680 But when removed from all those like societal impositions, her 480 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,560 Annie is able to so freely, right? 481 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,840 So it's not so much of a conflict between the two as the 482 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,600 the internal experience helping the external experience kind of 483 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,520 find themself. Yeah, absolutely. 484 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,880 Late throughout the series, they I'm I'm sort of treating them 485 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,520 almost as sisters to each other feeling that they have sort of a 486 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,880 like they're they are indeed different people, but they you 487 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:19,000 know, they they share this body and being kind to that body 488 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,600 because it is shared knowing like later in the series I have 489 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:31,920 written that you know, something happens to Audi Val that kind of 490 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,000 sends her back into the closet a bit and the Annie can feel that 491 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,880 and doesn't know why that is And you know the the 2 are are both 492 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,920 locked away from each other, but also communicating sort of 493 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,520 almost ethereally in that way and helping each other grow into 494 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,600 their identities. I don't know how I'm going to 495 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:58,960 end it, I'll admit, because I can't have them just walked to 496 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,400 the workplace. If you've seen severance innies 497 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,640 don't leave the office and I. That that elevator, that magic 498 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,280 elevator just, yeah, exactly separates everything, yeah. 499 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,040 And I, I don't, I've, I've committed to not like I do not 500 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,880 want to explore things the show hasn't in terms of its lore or 501 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,440 go story directions that the show like answer questions the 502 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,000 show hasn't. That's not what this is about. 503 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,280 It's strictly about like, like I'm not going to talk about Cold 504 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,080 Harbor. So it's strictly. 505 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,520 In the inverse of severance, you know, so it's it's I cannot 506 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,920 name. It yeah, I kind of wanted to to 507 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,640 make this feel like, you know, the world of Severance is much 508 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,720 bigger than the show that you're watching. 509 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,560 There's other people employed at this job and those people could 510 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,040 be trans. They're not trying to save the 511 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,280 world in in a way necessarily. They're just trying to save 512 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,680 themselves. Yeah. 513 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,640 And I, I was thinking obviously watch the watch through the 514 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,840 first season and the bit of the second season in preparation for 515 00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,800 this, because I'm a professional. 516 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,960 And some of the things that it kind of brought up for me when 517 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,560 thinking about the relationship of transness and severance is 518 00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:18,239 how a lot of trans people have to go through almost a similar 519 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,679 process to survive in a professional world where you 520 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:29,360 have a work Sona your your work personality that is completely 521 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:35,840 divided from your queer personality out of necessity and 522 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,960 the transition between the two and how you're navigating how 523 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,960 you navigate that. So it's interesting to kind of 524 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,360 like, and whether or not those two sides are in conflict with 525 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,280 one another. So it's interesting to hear how 526 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,480 you're kind of going down the road of like they're both, they 527 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,679 both are harboring these same feelings and one is doing it 528 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:05,240 without the kind of like memory of the gendered framework that 529 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:10,160 they've been raised in. And that when you remove that 530 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:18,280 that history, that memory that it changes, it opens up the 531 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,760 possibility for that that transformation. 532 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,720 I should also say that like, if you haven't seen the show, 533 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,840 really just the first two episodes of the first season is 534 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,440 all you you basically need. I don't like I said, I don't 535 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,560 build off of like spoilers necessarily. 536 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,960 It's just the the premise of innies and outies and like a 537 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,680 split experience. Yeah, OK, so can we do light 538 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,760 spoilers? Yeah, with the with the Here 539 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,840 comes spoilers tag. Yeah, I hear you. 540 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,400 So so like light spoilers for later in the season when they 541 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,120 discover in the first season when they discover that there is 542 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,880 a technology that lets the innies experience the outer 543 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:04,000 world and, you know, that kind of takes the show in a different 544 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,000 direction. They discover who they are, who 545 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:13,480 the Audis are more and have a glimpse of that life. 546 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,200 Is that something that you would you're considering bringing in 547 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,760 or are you just kind of trying to stick with the basic premise 548 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,440 and. I've considered that, and since 549 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,000 we're on the subject of spoilers like some the last Oh no, wait, 550 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,960 you're not there yet. OK, never mind, you haven't. 551 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,280 No, I haven't finished. Season 2 OK well shoot alright 552 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,920 I've. Seen all of season 2 and part of 553 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,800 three so. There's a three. 554 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,720 Wait, no, nevermind. No, 3's not out yet. 555 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,200 Nevermind, sorry, I don't know what. 556 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,320 That is spoilers. There's a three, No? 557 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,360 Yeah. No, there's and there probably 558 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,200 will be like I but. I hope so. 559 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,640 Another another series. Sorry but no I have seen all of 560 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,160 season 1 definitely. And so there's, so in Season 1 561 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,200 there is the sort of technology procedure that's that's 562 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,960 discussed at like what do they call it reintegration or 563 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,360 something where they're kind of combining. 564 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,240 There's reintegration, but there's also the overtime 565 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:15,160 contingency right thing. Yeah. 566 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,400 I mean, yeah, it's. Been renewed for a third season, 567 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,840 OK. Good. 568 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:27,000 Yeah, I've I've really thought about playing with either of 569 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,720 those two concepts. It's, it's difficult because I 570 00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:38,760 don't, I don't want to, I don't want to go into the direction of 571 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,960 a loss of life, which is what would happen if one or the 572 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,080 other, you know, identity decides that they're going to 573 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:53,520 take control from here on out. And so I'm, I'm, I'm struggling 574 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,880 to come up with an ending, but I, I'm confident that like I'll 575 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,320 be able to thread that needle again. 576 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,960 Like the show hasn't answered the question of like the these 577 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,160 questions itself. So like again, I don't really 578 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,440 want to answer questions the show hasn't answered, but also 579 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,480 at the same time like. Right. 580 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,960 Like how did this all start? Like there's no origin so far 581 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:15,200 that I can. Yeah, See. 582 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,920 Yeah. And, and like the the examples 583 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,720 in the show that we have of reintegration or whatever they 584 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,800 call it, you know, leads to a kind of a horrible, horrible 585 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,400 position. And, and even if it doesn't, 586 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,920 does that mean the, the, and this is what's so interesting, 587 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,160 but I have a, a couple of my partners are plural systems and 588 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,880 trans. And they have a lot to say about 589 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,680 the show for this reason totally. 590 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:52,720 Because like, at what point do you at at what point are these 591 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:58,000 totally separate individuals who share a body at, at what would 592 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,640 integration, you know, result in a third person who's distinct 593 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,040 from either of them but shares their memories? 594 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,360 Is that destroying 2 lives is leaving them split, but one of 595 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,400 them never leaving them severed, but one of them never getting to 596 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,560 experience consciousness again? Is that is that actually death? 597 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:25,600 Is that person dying? And I think that there's so many 598 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,040 different ways to both interpret that and also like play with 599 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,240 that artistically. Absolutely. 600 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,200 I guess to sort of spoil my own Series A little bit, I am 601 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,480 leaning toward reintegration as the sort of like direction that 602 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,960 we go because it's too easy to map that even on to the talk of, 603 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,400 of gender affirmative care. And you know, like, oh, what's 604 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,560 the regret rate on, on something like that? 605 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,320 Or Are you sure you're ready to take that kind of plunge and 606 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,000 coming out of the other side of that kind of scary procedure 607 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,680 like a different person? So yes, it's we're never the 608 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,680 same people that we are from day-to-day. 609 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:12,000 But certainly like, you know, any Val's Innie versus Audi and 610 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,240 who Val ends up at the end of this are all different people 611 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:18,680 because we, you know, we're always moving forward. 612 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,000 Our identity is always like fluidly changing. 613 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,560 Oh, that's I was gonna. I was sorry. 614 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,560 Go. Ahead Well, no, I just, you 615 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,120 know, so like, you know, if you're any like this is 616 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,480 interesting because I've never watched severance. 617 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,400 All of these concepts are new to me, but they're really 618 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,080 fascinating because you know, these concepts, they, they, they 619 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,800 relate to like, you know, like transness is like a severed self 620 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,400 waking up. Absolutely. 621 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,400 It was too easy to apply that. Like I was like, I have to do 622 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,440 this before someone else does it. 623 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,640 Yeah. So like, if your ini is the 624 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,560 version of of you untouched by like gender expectations, what 625 00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,080 truth did they carry that your Audi struggled to accept or 626 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,160 speak aloud? And I'm asking you personally. 627 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,440 I'm sorry, can you repeat that you started to cut a? 628 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,440 Little sorry, yeah, no. So like, you know, if the, if 629 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,120 your ini is like the version of you untouched by gender 630 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,120 expectations, what what truth did they carry that your Audi 631 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,320 struggled to accept or speak aloud for you personally? 632 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,960 So I want to because I want to kind of relate it back to your 633 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,720 personal transition, like your personal story and how this 634 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,000 story like reflects you specifically. 635 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,480 So I feel like, I mean, there's a lot of me in those characters. 636 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:41,440 Of course, that's naturally. And in a way, I think that 637 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:47,960 Valerie is the character that I would have been in a different 638 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,640 life. I was very fortunate that, yes, 639 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:59,360 I came out late in life, sort of relatively 202133. 640 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:06,240 And I was very fortunate that my wife was so supportive that the 641 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,520 day that I came out was we were on a beach in San Diego with 642 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:15,440 friends, and I was cold. And my wife had just picked up 643 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,760 like this, this crop top sweater from this from a nearby shop 644 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,320 with like, a pink, like, Insignia on it. 645 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,960 Not that femme at all, truly. But I was like, I'm so cold. 646 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,440 Give me it. And I put it on. 647 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,320 And I was like, why do I feel so good? 648 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,840 I don't know why I feel this good, but boy, do I feel good. 649 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,560 Can I keep wearing this for the rest of the day? 650 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:37,880 And she was like, yeah, of course. 651 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,920 And we have some friends who had visited us or who had joined us 652 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,920 there. And they were like you, you're 653 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,760 really like electric right now. What's that about? 654 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,760 I'm like, I don't know. And so my experience to coming 655 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,960 out was quite immediate. Like the moment we got back 656 00:42:53,960 --> 00:43:00,280 home, I was like, I think I'm trans, but I, I don't know, my 657 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,400 relationship to my gender is just completely been like blown 658 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:10,240 open from this one moment. After about 10 years of of 659 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,880 introspection of cleaning my attic of of all the other 660 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,800 things. The trans box was at the end at 661 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,600 the bottom of that pile and was like, oh, what's this? 662 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:22,800 And so for me, for the sort of the severance sort of fanfic. 663 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,400 This is a character then, who is kind of both experiences of me, 664 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,560 like the any being somebody who has not necessarily the support 665 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,960 network, but just the the freedom because of the lack of 666 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,480 of like societal what positions to just be like, wait a minute, 667 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,240 I think I'm I'm not this like I'm not what I've what my Audi 668 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,480 came in here as, and that kind of relates to my experience of 669 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,360 coming out just being like, you know, wait a minute, I I don't 670 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,000 vibe with this anymore. I suddenly feel free to just 671 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:03,880 just express this and Val's Audi being sort of the 32 years 672 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:09,760 before that of me of possibly having these buried ideas or 673 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,120 concepts that just aren't ever, you know, I'm not able to 674 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,640 explore. Yeah, that that sounds familiar. 675 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,800 And I think like a lot of a lot of, I don't know how much of it 676 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,040 is part of the discourse now, but the idea of gender is 677 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,640 performance. And I always felt that I had a 678 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,160 really integrated personality at the beginning of transition. 679 00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:40,960 And in a lot of ways, I'm the same person, but there's a lot 680 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,840 of ways that I'm not. And I think that is something 681 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:55,360 that ties in well to the idea of this like this severed 682 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,040 experience where you have like the the first year. 683 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,360 Oh, geez, yeah. The first year or so after I 684 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:10,520 came out and started to socially transition, I was working jobs 685 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:20,320 where I couldn't do that really. So I would come into work, I'd 686 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,880 leave, leave home to go to work in like boy mode and then come 687 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:30,560 home and switch back. And that's one of those things 688 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,000 that like, you know, watching the show and you're like, OK, 689 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:38,080 well, you become a different person to do your job. 690 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,520 And then you take that mask off. And the show is kind of the 691 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:48,000 opposite because of the nature of what it is, the the severed 692 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,280 selves becoming kind of like a creation after the fact. 693 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,840 But yeah, I found I found that really striking. 694 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,800 And it seems like that seems to be a shared experience a little 695 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,080 bit with that, yeah. Yeah, like wearing of masks and 696 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,040 the places that we we take them on or put them off. 697 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,520 You know, me having come out in 21, that was at the tail end of 698 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,480 COVID. So like before the the vaccine 699 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,080 has come out, that's why we're at the beach because we're like 700 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:23,440 it's vaccine summer. And so that was a year basically 701 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,800 of, you know, I'm indoors. I, I can wear whatever I want to 702 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,600 work any like I don't have to go to work. 703 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,120 I'm working from home now. A lot of people wear COVID, 704 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,360 COVID trans people and I'm I'm one of them. 705 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,000 Yeah, that was really common. Yeah, yeah. 706 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,800 It's time to explore at home, and now I'm figuring this out. 707 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,680 Yeah. So do you believe? 708 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,480 Do you believe these selves are like ever truly separate or held 709 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,880 apart by circumstance, language, and fear? 710 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,240 Yeah, I think that like the show kind of the the show Severance 711 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:08,840 itself kind of presents these characters as being quite 712 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,440 separated. I don't think we have a lot of 713 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,960 examples of much crossover except with maybe Irving for 714 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,120 another for other examples. But and so in my series, I'm 715 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,480 trying to explore that like there is something about 716 00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,960 realizing that you're trans that kind of transcends even the 717 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,720 magic elevator that like once vowels. 718 00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:36,960 Annie just uses a sharpie on her eyes to kind of express 719 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,960 femininity that that awakens something that even elevator 720 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,240 can't touch. And it's in, it's in that second 721 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:49,480 episode, that of nesting dolls, what it's called get it like a 722 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,640 doll that's in another doll. In the second episode I explored 723 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,320 that like Oval feels that change as they leave work that day that 724 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,080 they're like, wait a minute, what the heck? 725 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:06,440 Like she had to scrub the the makeup off of her eyes because 726 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,040 you can't transfer messages through the elevator. 727 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,760 But that didn't matter. The message was sort of sent 728 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:17,520 intrinsically. I think that the show textually 729 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,080 does that with queerness. Not to give out too many 730 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,840 spoilers for season 1, but like the the fact that that queerness 731 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:31,040 transcends the the severance procedure is not just subtext. 732 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,480 It's a major text in the first season of the show. 733 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,200 So I think, you know, this is this is I think kind of why this 734 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,160 leads into this question really nicely. 735 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,120 Why do you think fan fiction can be such a powerful space for 736 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,320 creator, for trans creators specifically? 737 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,880 And just to like lead a little bit more into that? 738 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,560 Like, that is clearly not something that the people who 739 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,360 made the show were thinking about when they made it. 740 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:02,200 Yes. So queer representation as like 741 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,760 on the whole is lacking in general, but especially trans 742 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,680 representation. And the reason why I feel fan 743 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,760 fiction is so powerful is that there are all already these 744 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:18,240 narratives that we connect to in whatever ways that were 745 00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:19,880 intentional or not from the writers. 746 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,480 And it takes so little to kind of nudge those narratives into 747 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,600 it, like queer representation or trans representation because the 748 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,800 pieces are there. We're just sort of like putting 749 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:40,160 them together and viewing media through queer lenses in that way 750 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:49,280 is it's empowering because it's giving us access to queer rebbe 751 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:55,040 media despite they're not being if they're like outwardly, like 752 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:56,800 it's like we can claim these things. 753 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,960 We can claim these narratives and stories and characters, and 754 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,680 we can do so through fan fiction in ways that like that help us, 755 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:11,840 that that teach us. And we're like, go ahead. 756 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:18,360 So, and then in terms of like from there, other people can 757 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,560 look at that and say, wow, I've, I've finally, I feel seen. 758 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:25,600 Yes. Absolutely. 759 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,960 The the nature of fan fiction is, is a shared like experience 760 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,400 already, right? Yeah. 761 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,400 It's like you're saying. And I'm just curious, like what 762 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,280 kind of conversations or emotions do you hope to spark 763 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:44,280 from the projects? Like you watch Severance, like 764 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:50,040 someone looking at your content, How do you think that continues 765 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,000 on for other people? Yeah. 766 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:57,440 I mean, I, I hope to. Yeah, I hope to that people see 767 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,680 it and find something of themselves in it that even if 768 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:06,800 it's simply just that like, Oh my gosh, I totally see like saw 769 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,520 a trans story in Severance and how this person's doing it. 770 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:15,040 Like it's validating even to not be the person who wrote it, but 771 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,760 to be the person who finds that they're not alone, right. 772 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,160 I mean, that's always the The thing is finding yourself in 773 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,800 others. And so when I'm by presenting 774 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,840 like a a framing of what may be a very exciting show to somebody 775 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,920 in a way that they can relate to even deeper, then yeah, it's 776 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,880 it's all part of that sort of like oral sharing and and like 777 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,760 cultivating that really like binds the queer community 778 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,400 together. How do you approach media? 779 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,880 I think the example in our questions is like Crouching 780 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,360 Tiger, Hidden Dragon with trans analysis in mind. 781 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,160 And I think that I don't know if this is something you've done 782 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,040 and that's what the question is leading from, or like stories 783 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,960 that aren't obviously queer or trans. 784 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,720 What do you do with that? So Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon 785 00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:15,880 is my all time favorite film and I have given a PowerPoint on how 786 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:22,840 trans it is 3 Times Now, most recently last week to 4 * 3 787 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:24,120 times. That was the the third time I 788 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:25,760 meant today. Oh yeah. 789 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,120 Oh, well, you're not going to get the whole but I. 790 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,720 Yeah, I want the PowerPoint now. I would love to yes, go ahead 791 00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:34,920 and give us the PowerPoint. Oh my gosh, I can't do that now. 792 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,960 I'll quick Cliff notes. So crashing Tiger hood and 793 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,360 Dragon is first of all, A at its core, it's a film about gender 794 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,000 roles. So boom, there it is. 795 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,880 Any, any narrative about gender roles is going to inherently ask 796 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,120 the question about identity and transness. 797 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,240 It's right there. But in addition to that, you 798 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,600 have, and what I talked about in my PowerPoint is like what is 799 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,440 often central to queer narratives, because we don't 800 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:12,480 have like the, the wealth of representation we would like to 801 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:18,120 have is the concept of yearning. Any time there's yearning in a 802 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,600 in a narrative, even if those characters are not textually 803 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,880 queer, it's queer because there is some force, whether it's be 804 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,800 societal or some barrier that is keeping them from being 805 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,880 together. And the IT just because it maps 806 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:43,520 so much to queer experience, at least today, who knows about 300 807 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,120 years from now. But because there is the barrier 808 00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,760 to our identities, to loving the way we want to both outwardly 809 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:57,680 and inwardly, it's ripe for a queer analysis of it. 810 00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:00,520 And in the case of Crashing Tiger, Hidden Dragon, you have 811 00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:06,120 every single character representing a slice of of 812 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:14,120 identity and like sexuality. Li Mubai, the one of the the 813 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,560 protagonists is sort of like a legendary monk. 814 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,800 And he at the beginning of the film, this isn't spoiling 815 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,480 anything. He arrives to hand off the sword 816 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:29,960 of Green destiny. He's basically like Neo more or 817 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,920 less in this world. He has superpowers. 818 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:38,480 He's a like like key powers like Qi and he can he can wield the 819 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,760 sword so effortlessly. He is the master of the sword, 820 00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:46,280 which means he's a master of masculinity. 821 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,120 The sword being like the the symbol of masculinity itself. 822 00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:55,160 And when he arrives on the scene to give it up, he has 823 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,280 transcended like the need for it. 824 00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,640 He's like, I don't want to do this anymore. 825 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,680 I have mastered this and it, it means nothing to me. 826 00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,680 Like I'm putting like I have transcended gender. 827 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,200 I'm putting this aside. Li Mubai is very much a gender. 828 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:21,160 He him, and it's very rewarding to watch the movie in such a way 829 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,640 that you examine weaponry and fighting styles as gender 830 00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,600 presentations. There's a sequence in the movie 831 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:33,200 where Gen. Yu, our sort of main protagonist 832 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:38,320 is boy moding that she has struck out on her own for the 833 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,800 first time. She's stolen the green Destiny 834 00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,440 sword and she's like, look at me, I have the ultimate symbol 835 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,200 of masculinity. I'm so good at this. 836 00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:56,120 And she fights off like 30 plus people with all different kinds 837 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,880 of weapons, all different genders in that in that 838 00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:06,400 sequence. And so no, there's just so many 839 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:13,240 lovely representations of both queer relationships and their 840 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:20,160 relationship to yearning. You have Li MU Bai and Shu LAN, 841 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,360 who's played by Michelle Yeoh. Oh my gosh, my hero. 842 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:30,800 They yearn for one another. They are trans to like in my in 843 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,720 my reading, they are both trans, but they are not free to love 844 00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:37,320 one another. And so they're because of 845 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,040 societal impositions. And so that is a yearning. 846 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,680 And then you have Jen Yu as a character who is so 847 00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,080 directionless, but she yearns for herself. 848 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,200 And the movie's disco is about her discovery of like, what it 849 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,920 means to yearn for your own, like for love for you. 850 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,840 I cry so hard at the end of that movie. 851 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,520 So hard every time. That, that brings up something 852 00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,520 interesting for me because I went to film school for writing. 853 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:17,320 And so the, the, the hero's journey kind of is hammered. 854 00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:24,560 And I think fundamentally there's an aspect of of yearning 855 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:33,880 of becoming in that style of narrative where you Disney's 856 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:38,240 Hercules and they have the song about that specifically about 857 00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:43,080 wanting to discover who you are. I think that maps so see my face 858 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:47,240 move on. OK. 859 00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,880 Anyways, no, I love it. Yes. 860 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:05,600 And and just, but like how trans characters, visibly trans 861 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,880 characters are very rarely put in the position of a protagonist 862 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,240 who is undergoing that journey of a hero. 863 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,320 Yeah. I mean, it, I saw the TV glow 864 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:23,440 was a big example of a trans narrative in which the hero's 865 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,520 journey is kind of like intentionally rejected because 866 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,000 of our like all of us sharing that common relationship to 867 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:37,280 that's that internal conflict of like, you know, setting forth 868 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,640 finding yourself. And so I think that Crouching 869 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:48,480 Tiger, Good Dragon, because it's not a directly Western story, is 870 00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:52,880 doing something with gender roles and gender expression 871 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:59,680 because it doesn't kind of map itself like immediately to a 872 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,320 hero's journey the way that a lot of maybe Western media does, 873 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:07,120 which kind of which kind of inherently like blocks out a lot 874 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,520 of trans stories because, and queer stories because there's so 875 00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,960 much of our life, like I said, is, is is struggling to take up 876 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,320 that adventure, so to speak. So what can trans storytelling 877 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,120 do that mainstream media? Mainstream media often fails to 878 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,840 do jumping right off the. Bat excellent, perfect, perfect 879 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,400 lead in yes. Thank you. 880 00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,160 I'm pretty good. No, it, it's that, it's, it's 881 00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,720 that like we are able to through trans stories and, and then of 882 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,480 course, through trans fan fictions and trans readings of 883 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:45,320 not intentionally trans narratives, we are able to sort 884 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:50,200 of reclaim a lot of narratives that would otherwise not apply 885 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:55,000 to us. It's, it's what those media 886 00:59:55,000 --> 01:00:00,200 analysis can do is open up a greater conversation with, with 887 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,120 yourself and your relationship to the, to the media you like to 888 01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:10,040 consume. What I I watched Interview with 889 01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,080 the Vampire for the first time in a long time. 890 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,320 After being becoming obsessed with crashing Tiger, hidden 891 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:20,320 dragon and what I love what I love about about media and film 892 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:26,480 is the way that you you start to like yarn together, like 893 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,160 thumbtack and yarn and tie these these narratives together as you 894 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,000 watch and bounce back and forth between them. 895 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,920 My first viewing of Interview with a Vampire was boy, this is 896 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:40,120 sure is a long dry story about a guy who is, you know, 897 01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,600 directionless. And then watching Presbyterian 898 01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,880 dragon becoming hyperfixated on on that queer narrative and 899 01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,720 coming back to interview and being like, Oh my God, this is 900 01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,880 so trans. This is also a very trans story. 901 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:57,240 I mean, like Claudia says, like I, I, my heart breaks when 902 01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,080 Claudia is like, I don't want to eat her. 903 01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:04,400 I want to be her because she's forever frozen as a child, right 904 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:10,880 when she witnesses like a, a bathing naked woman and being 905 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:14,760 able to sort of connect those two pieces because you start 906 01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:19,840 building a trans or queer lens of things is so rewarding. 907 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,760 I, I feel like I'm going off track, off track a little bit, 908 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:23,280 but just. I think. 909 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,240 That's you're right. That really resonates, you know, 910 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,080 because I feel that, you know, because you bring up this idea 911 01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,720 of like the western, like this year centric way of like looking 912 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:39,120 at gender, which is very much like, I, I feel that that trans 913 01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:44,240 people are like, we're, we're a gateway drug to, to finding 914 01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,520 yourself. And I think that it just 915 01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:51,800 challenges, it challenges the mainstream patriarchy and it 916 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:56,320 kind of begins to dismantle some of these like these, these 917 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,320 supremacist ways of, of these systematic control and 918 01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,480 oppression. Because the idea that like, 919 01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,400 because you know, we've, we've, we've had guests on the show 920 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,040 where we've talked about gender without identity, You know, this 921 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:15,360 idea that like everyone has a gender and everyone should be 922 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,840 free to experience that. And it's, and it's trans people 923 01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,920 that are the ones that step out and, and, and really speak truth 924 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,960 to, to who they are. And, and it feels as if, you 925 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,000 know, like cisgender people, they're like, you know, as if 926 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,240 they don't have a gender. And it, and it feels because of 927 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,640 this, this oppressive system that we're in, that it, that it 928 01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:36,840 strangles all of us from thinking because we all should 929 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,640 be free to find ourselves. We should all be able to be 930 01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:43,000 fluid in our expression that we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be, 931 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,040 you know, this confined to these ideas. 932 01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,960 And, and I think that's why we see ourselves so ostracized in 933 01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,520 the media is because we are a threat essentially to the 934 01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,920 patriarchy and to to these systems of oppression. 935 01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:59,440 Because you know, once people get the idea that like, Hey, I 936 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:04,640 don't have to be what that man tells me, you know, it, it 937 01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,000 starts to break down a lot of things. 938 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,440 So let me ask you, you know, as we begin to wrap up, because 939 01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:16,560 we're getting near our end here, you know, why is querying 940 01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,720 fiction not not just fun, but why is it so unnecessary in this 941 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:20,880 time? And I feel like we've touched on 942 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,640 that so much in this episode. But you know, as we begin to 943 01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:28,360 wrap up, can you really lay it down on why it is just so 944 01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,920 necessary in in the work that that you're specifically in, in 945 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:37,560 Ox and so many others are doing? Yeah, I think that everyone 946 01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,320 benefits from querying media, right. 947 01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,320 It's a sort of rising tide lifting all boats kind of 948 01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:49,880 situation where with I mean, there is there's man, woman in 949 01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:54,360 the non binary spectrum all around and in between that is 950 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,160 infinite. And yet within man and woman, 951 01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:03,040 there is also Infinity. And I think that like even 952 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:09,320 binary and CIS people stand to to really like benefit in terms 953 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,320 of introspection and and understanding their own gender. 954 01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:15,920 You had you mentioned like it feels like for somebody CIS 955 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,200 people that it's just they've defaulted into their identity. 956 01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:20,920 And I don't want that for them either. 957 01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,840 I don't want everyone to be trans necessarily. 958 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:28,040 I want everyone to to examine their own gender and take 959 01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,240 ownership of it. If you were born a man and 960 01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,280 you're you're still a man, that's great. 961 01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:33,960 I want to see what you do with it. 962 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,760 Acknowledge the Infinity within man because one representation 963 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,920 of man is not your representation of man and 964 01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:47,200 etcetera. And yeah, so like queer queering 965 01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:52,920 media is queering the idea of of gender itself and opening that 966 01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:57,160 conversation up to anyone and everyone, whether or not they 967 01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,880 emerge from that conversation as trans or with a better 968 01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:06,280 understanding of who they are, which only leads to more 969 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,120 compassion and empathy to others, right? 970 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:11,640 I mean, that's what it's all about. 971 01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:16,040 You know, I, I, I really resonate with that and I 972 01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,200 resonate, you know, Fox here said something a moment ago 973 01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:22,040 that, you know, it's, it's like being and water your whole life 974 01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,360 and not knowing. And that really resonated in the 975 01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:29,560 sense that, you know, in 2020, I had heard a story about a fish 976 01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,760 and this, and this comes from a film that I had seen, but this 977 01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,640 analogy, and you may have seen it was it's in a Pixar film. 978 01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,560 But the story goes and says, you know, I, I heard the story about 979 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,400 a fish. And he and he and he swims up to 980 01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,160 an older fish. And this fish says, he says, I'm 981 01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,280 trying to find this thing they call the ocean. 982 01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,720 The ocean says the older fish. Well, that's that's what you're 983 01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,840 in right now with the younger fish. 984 01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,760 She says, no, this is water. What I want is the ocean. 985 01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:59,600 And it's like coming to realize, you know, within my own self 986 01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,720 like that. That quote really began a years 987 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:06,920 long endeavor into finding myself. 988 01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,960 And it was because of that realization that like I've 989 01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:14,520 yearned to, to find the ocean and realizing that it's within 990 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,720 my grasp at this time now and that I and that I can just, 991 01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:21,640 it's, I can just, I have the, it felt like I had that permission 992 01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:25,880 to realize that like, wow, like I'm looking for what I'm in and 993 01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,720 I have it. So it was so, you know. 994 01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,880 You have the power all along. Yes, absolutely. 995 01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:37,760 It's the Dragon Scroll. So Vega, where can our listeners 996 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,560 find you on TikTok? What is their handle in any 997 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,480 other places and things like that? 998 01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:47,080 My handle is gender fluid, a cab solid. 999 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:52,200 I've had a lot of commenters be like what does ACAT mean? 1000 01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,800 Is it assigned cop at birth? And I'm like, it's quite the 1001 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,680 opposite actually, I thought. It was cat is what I assumed. 1002 01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,320 No, I'm actually of the puppy girl variety. 1003 01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,880 But anyway. That's for another episode. 1004 01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:11,960 Oh, good, I'm coming back. Yeah, you can primarily find me 1005 01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:14,360 there. It's my only social but if 1006 01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,960 you've seen me on Instagram, someone has stolen my video but 1007 01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:20,000 please follow me there instead and TikTok instead. 1008 01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:27,760 I have for the most part sworn off meta for that reason or for 1009 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,480 the reasons that you know, one shouldn't swear off meta and 1010 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:33,880 TikTok is where I do all my posting. 1011 01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:41,160 So how can how can people uplift creators like you and and media 1012 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:47,240 analysis in general? Oh gosh, you know, everyone's 1013 01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:50,080 got their sort of Lincoln bio kind of situation. 1014 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,360 So find who you like, support them in any means you can via 1015 01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:56,240 like, I don't know, reposting or whatever. 1016 01:07:56,240 --> 01:08:03,720 But I think that like developing your own sort of literary muscle 1017 01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:09,840 and you know, exercising that is how you will organically support 1018 01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,000 creators who who do that and present that. 1019 01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,680 Because if you tell the algorithm that you like hearing 1020 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:20,240 thirst trap film talk, which is my last video I posted about, 1021 01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,359 then you're going to be delivered more of this content. 1022 01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:30,439 And that's going to be the way that you you naturally fold 1023 01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:37,080 yourself into this world breakdown, analyze media. 1024 01:08:37,319 --> 01:08:40,319 You know the curtains are blue for a reason. 1025 01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,960 Don't be afraid to to sort of like find yourself in any 1026 01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:48,760 narrative that you think is is small or large. 1027 01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:50,160 It doesn't matter. Every interpretation is 1028 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:55,960 important and is special. And when you start to to engage 1029 01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:58,160 with other creators that are doing the same, that will 1030 01:08:58,160 --> 01:08:59,640 naturally uplift us all. I. 1031 01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,359 Think I think for. Well, I was, I was just going to 1032 01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:07,399 say, you know, Speaking of exercising, you know, and, and, 1033 01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:10,840 and getting out there and into the fold of, of content 1034 01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,800 creation. If you would like to participate 1035 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:17,520 in being a part of this program, please reach out and e-mail us 1036 01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,760 at transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com. 1037 01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,200 That's trans narrativepodcastgmail.com. 1038 01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,880 And that's how we continue to uplift and, and, and celebrate 1039 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,359 gender diversity and, and create this space where we can 1040 01:09:31,359 --> 01:09:32,960 question, learn and grow together. 1041 01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,240 Fox, what were you going to say? I was going to say, if you are a 1042 01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:39,680 sys person and you are listening to this and you're wondering how 1043 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:44,680 you can help uplift trans creators and media analysis, 1044 01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:49,680 seek out stories with different experiences. 1045 01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,000 Seek them out. Even if it's, you know, a TikTok 1046 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:57,160 or a YouTube or or something. Go look for stories told by 1047 01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,640 people who have a different life experience than you. 1048 01:09:59,960 --> 01:10:03,360 Not just not just one that's a sys writer who's writing about a 1049 01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:05,560 different life experience, but something that's coming from 1050 01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:10,400 lived, experienced people. Give them your money if you have 1051 01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,760 that available please. Give money to all of us, the 1052 01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,480 handles in the in the description, by the way, for me, 1053 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:17,920 if you'd like. No. 1054 01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,960 So as as we begin to wrap up today, Kevin, any final 1055 01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,360 thoughts, comments or anything you'd like to leave and ask 1056 01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:31,080 Megan before we go? Yeah, just what do you feel is 1057 01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,640 next? Like a next project. 1058 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:44,360 Yeah, I so I'm terrified of AI and the very near future. 1059 01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,760 And so I've, I've been kind of kicking around an idea of sort 1060 01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,640 of a little like a film noir detective who, you know, teams 1061 01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:57,560 up with like an AI that they solve silly crimes that either 1062 01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:03,160 AI has done really stupidly or that kind of bring the idea of 1063 01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:05,920 that threat into the fore. And of course, there's going to 1064 01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:12,080 be a healthy heap of gender and trans exploration and such a 1065 01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:16,080 thing because you've got an AI. Well, that AI surely has to 1066 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,640 develop understandings of itself. 1067 01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:23,240 Let's help the A5, let's help the AI recognize its own gender. 1068 01:11:23,320 --> 01:11:26,640 And you know what I've done? Can't even get into AII. 1069 01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,280 Am so sorry. That's OK, That was my fault. 1070 01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:31,760 I am. Summarizing our our chat. 1071 01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:35,040 So hi, sorry. It doesn't. 1072 01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:35,920 Thanks. Don't worry. 1073 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:37,560 No, no. Not yet. 1074 01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,720 Not yet. It's it's and it won't tell us. 1075 01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:43,840 But anyway, I'm not that's a different episode because I, you 1076 01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,000 know. Anyway, so Fox, any final 1077 01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:47,760 thoughts and comments? Anything you'd like to leave and 1078 01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:50,400 ask Vega, and anything you'd like to say before we go? 1079 01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:57,200 Yeah, I think this, this we, we work in similar fields, similar 1080 01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:59,000 may use. So like what does kratom 1081 01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:02,600 creative freedom look like for you as a trans artist in this 1082 01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:04,120 moment? And I guess we can kind of go 1083 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:05,480 back and forth on this little bit. 1084 01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:10,240 Yeah. Do you mean in the like the 1085 01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:12,880 freedom to make anything at all that you want to make? 1086 01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:16,360 I mean, that's kind of like my immediate answers that kind of 1087 01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:22,560 what you're you're asking. Yeah, I think that's kind of how 1088 01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:26,760 the question is posed. I have my own thoughts on this 1089 01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,480 too because there's so many aspects that go into what 1090 01:12:29,480 --> 01:12:34,480 creative freedom really is. I mean I could get into an anti 1091 01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:38,400 capitalist critique and the need for third places and resources 1092 01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:44,200 that afford people a healthy relationship to the arts. 1093 01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:49,520 Let's go there. So what free, what creative 1094 01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:54,560 freedom looks like is the time and encouragement and resources 1095 01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:59,040 to engage with the arts in a way that you feel collaborative 1096 01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,400 because art is what makes us human. 1097 01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:06,240 I weep for the state of art today. 1098 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:12,280 It it is breaking my heart. And so ultimate creative freedom 1099 01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:16,320 would be the ability for everyone to contribute every 1100 01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:18,840 story. There's billions and billions of 1101 01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:22,240 stories to be told. And I would like them all to be. 1102 01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:25,920 I mean, that goes back to the, the question of like, you know, 1103 01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,920 the importance of fan fiction and query narratives is that 1104 01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,480 like this is the power we do have as storytellers. 1105 01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:37,080 It's like, you're not going to green light my stuff, but I'm 1106 01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,960 going to post it on a O3 or I'm going to make it available 1107 01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:46,880 through TikTok or, or whatever. And I like to think I, I, I'd 1108 01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:50,800 like to think about my account being sort of the TikTok premium 1109 01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:52,880 that like, oh, I'm getting a little TV show. 1110 01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,120 Oh, the new episode drops. And this being the kind of like 1111 01:13:56,120 --> 01:14:01,400 content that you would not be able to see anywhere else but 1112 01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:04,440 here it is being delivered by other queer people. 1113 01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:08,280 Directly and I think that's the strength of social media 1114 01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:09,920 platforms. I know we're over time. 1115 01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:11,680 Sorry. That's fine. 1116 01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:13,440 That's my fault. No, I. 1117 01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:19,000 I, I really, I really have enjoyed this time tonight that 1118 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:19,920 that. We've had and. 1119 01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:22,360 This has been this has really been nice and I really have 1120 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:23,960 enjoyed it. And Fox, you know, I can't wait 1121 01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:25,760 to have you back on. Yeah. 1122 01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,480 I'm excited we have we have stuff to talk about. 1123 01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,920 Yeah, this has been. A really great conversation, I 1124 01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:36,400 love it. Absolutely so. 1125 01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:41,720 As, as we as we depart now and carry on into our week, Vega, 1126 01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,200 what is the message you'd like to leave our audience with just 1127 01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:47,840 to, to carry in our hearts into this week in these rough times 1128 01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:53,880 that we're in? Keep loving yourself, keep 1129 01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:58,840 exploring yourself, keep in this time. 1130 01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:04,480 Yes, it is so important to engage with and develop an 1131 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:12,600 appreciation for the arts and finding yourself in media and 1132 01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:18,120 sharing your favorite films, shows, music, works of art that 1133 01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:23,800 tie you to those communities and and you know, help build that is 1134 01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:26,080 what's going to be so important moving forward. 1135 01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:32,960 Keeping these narratives alive, keeping these lenses as it's, 1136 01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,560 it's going to feel like we're doing underground work, you 1137 01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:39,960 know, talking about queer movies that aren't queer, you know, 1138 01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,640 intentionally sharing, sharing work, sharing arts that 1139 01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:49,040 continues to help people find themselves. 1140 01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:51,960 That's, that's the, that's your homework. 1141 01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:52,600 That's your assignment.