Hello and welcome to the Kappa Podcast.
My name is Matt. I'm the Senior Practitioner for
Kappa First Response and I'm joined today as ever by our
Founder and CEO, Jane Griffiths. Hi, Jane.
Hey Matt, how you doing? So lovely to be here with.
You with me face to face. I know in your lovely flat
sunny. It's a rare treat, isn't it?
Fantastic. It you know what, It is a rare
treat. Yeah, I think it.
It's so lovely to be together to record this.
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
It already feels a lot more real.
Yeah, Yeah. So this series is going to be
slightly different to what we've done previously, isn't it?
Do you want to say a little bit about about why we're doing this
series to begin with? Yeah.
Well, I mean, I guess our previous series that we we've
thought about, we've sort of been in conversation with or
we've been zooming and and speaking to particular people
about particular issues. This one is really designed for
families who feel a bit more isolated, whether that be via
location or through circumstances and their
experience, feel like they're unable to talk to people.
And we wanted to provide something that families could
access 24/7 regardless of their locations.
I also think it's really important to say that East
Sussex local authority sort of really commissioned us to do
this because they really wanted to support families living in
those rural outlying areas who found it really, really
difficult to get support. And we'll be offering, well, I
guess if we were to sit, Matt, and think about what would be
our top five or six strategies, we're sort of aiming to to sort
of think about those strategies for families, aren't we?
That's what the series is going to be about.
Yeah. So it's, it's a little bit more,
it's going to be a little bit, I mean, I think hopefully all, all
of our podcasts have been useful, but this is a bit more,
something a bit more tangible, a bit more solid that people can
use and put into practise. Yeah.
We're not thinking about, you know, this, these episodes
aren't for about us understanding what this issue
is. This is really let's go, what's
the support that we offer to families and let's share that,
Yeah. I think you said a minute ago
that these are like probably 5 or six of our top strategies
that we, we know are useful to quite a few different families
that we work with. But it's always really important
to say that nothing works all of the time.
And there isn't one thing that is going to work for every
single family. And if even if it works for that
family, it doesn't mean that it's going to work 100% of the
time. So it's just important that we
say that at the at the top, I think to say these are all ideas
that, you know, have a listen, keep it in mind.
Hopefully you think I'm going to give that a try.
But even if you think it's not going to work for me, it doesn't
feel quite right. Hopefully you'll still think
about the idea behind it. And even if you don't action
anything from it, you can think about why, why it might be
useful and why it might be important.
And hopefully there's some use in that as well.
Yeah. And and I think, you know, a
reminder that all of our work and all of our support to
families is tailored and bespoke.
You know, we speak to families and think what's happening for
them in their home and we can, you know, it could be that we
don't talk about any of these strategies, but generally what
we've found out is these strategies come into our support
at some point for families. And there will be somebody out
there listening to this and maybe think I can't, I can't get
on board with what Matt, I can't get on board with what that that
strategy that you've spoken about.
But I can really get on board with this other strategy.
And we we anticipate that and expect that.
I think what's important as well is that, you know, everything
and all everything we're going to be sharing on the in this
series, it's not necessary. It's not going to do any harm.
It's all about it's all relationship building.
And that's only a positive thing.
You may see things and we'll talk about that and what in one
of the episodes that we're going to be presenting about, you
know, what can happen if actually things do feel
different. My child has noticed something
different. What do I do then?
So, and we will we'll sort of address that weren't we want to
I think it's Episode 2 when we're thinking about our safety
Lanning. OK, so, so that's a little bit
about why we're doing it and you know, some of the things we're
going to be covering, but it's going to it's going to look a
little bit different from our other podcasts, right?
Yep, Yeah. So, you know, up until now it's
been us chatting, hasn't it, And having conversations.
Yeah. What we've decided to do with
this, which will look a little bit different, is the beginning
of every episode. We'll have a little explanation
around what we're doing. You know, this isn't about
explaining why this happens, because we've done that.
This is about sharing those strategies, how we would share
them with a family. So we're doing it separately.
So I'm going to be presenting three of them and thinking about
3 strategies and you're going to be presenting three of them and
support 3 strategies. But we're doing them solo.
So they won't have that opportunity of a back and forth.
And I think that that's going to be the main difference that
people will see. Yeah, and I think that's
hopefully will make it a little bit more useful because you can
follow along. It's not you're not listening to
a conversation like you're saying of us back and forth.
You're listening to us giving you a strategy as we would, you
know, in a session if, you know, as we were explaining it to you
and and kind of telling you why we're suggesting you do this,
what what the background is to it.
Is there anything else we've missed, Jane?
I think we, I don't think we have.
Hopefully we can just let's do it.
Let's go. All right.
Let's get into it. So Matt, we're on to episode 3
and you're going to be talking about validation today.
Do you want to just briefly give us a, a quick what that, what's
that going to look like? Yeah.
So validation is, is something we kind of look at as quite a
foundational piece of work. It's something really important
that we, I think pretty much across the board, we suggest to
parents to think about this and to and to use it if they feel
they can. It's really important because it
helps your child know that what they're experiencing is being
seen. And very often this can lead to
strengthening of the relationship, more trust in the
relationship that everyone kind of understands difficulty
because when you're seeing this behaviour, everyone is
suffering. You know, you as the parent,
you're suffering, your child is also suffering.
So when we use validation as a way to, to, to open up
communication again, to, to strengthen relationships.
And it has been, I think a very useful strategy or piece of work
for for most of the families we work with.
So it's a really. I think what I like about this
one is so many families come back to us, particularly when
we've done our drop in and they're like, I tried validation
and I didn't, I didn't really think of, you know, how, what an
impact that would have on my relationship with my child.
And for some parents, it's just been so immediate.
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think it's quite
simple. Often people think, oh really,
is this going to work? They're fooled by the simplicity
of of the surface level of the of the strategy, but there's
lots going on underneath. It works on a few different
layers and levels. And yeah, I think we should.
I think we should go into it are.
You ready? Yeah.
So validation is basically the simple act of making a statement
that recognises the difficulty that your child is facing.
It's it's basically saying, yeah, I can, I can see that's
really tough and validating that difficulty saying I understand
you, you know why that would be difficult for you.
It's not saying that it's acceptable to use violent or
harmful or aggressive behaviours, but it's saying we
understand why someone's upset. So it is kind of quite a
foundational piece of work that we do in most families that we
work with. We suggest they give this a try
because as with all of this, it comes back to the relationship.
And this is a really strong way of building connection, building
trust, building, you know, communication as well, showing
empathy, showing compassion, all the things that are really
important in order to move you forward so that you're not stuck
in this loop of being in conflict all the time.
You can start to normalise cooperation a little bit more
and and get a little bit more of that closeness.
So like I say, it's a statement that recognises the difficulty a
child is facing. We know that in most instances
there is a reason why a child will be using this behaviour.
We're not saying it's like I say, it doesn't excuse it or
make it acceptable, but there is a, there is a reason why.
Now it's really important that we show that we're paying
attention to that reason why so which is what we do with
validation. So it is as simple as saying, I
can imagine how difficult it was when I don't know, your, your
sister sat in that seat that you really wanted to sit in, or when
your friend, you know, made that joke about you in front of some
other mates. I, I get how difficult that
could have been. I can imagine how upsetting that
would have been. Something along those lines.
Obviously not both of them at the same time, just just one,
whatever your issue that you've you've seen is difficult for
your child, whatever that may be.
And, and those were both kind of day-to-day issues.
We can also, I mean, we'll talk about this more later, but we
can also do this for more historic problems as well.
I mean historic issues, you know, I can imagine how tough it
was when me and your dad broke up or whatever it was.
So it's about recognising that that pain and that difficulty.
So I'm going to talk about why we do it and then I'm going to
talk about how we do it. So first of all, why we do it.
Like I've just mentioned, normally there is a reason why a
child is using this behaviour. And what can happen is, is that
child is trying to communicate a difficulty or a pain or, or
something that they cannot cope with.
And, and so they, you know, maybe they start acting out a
little and then the behaviour can escalate and things get
worse. And then, you know, it goes from
a, you know, tantrums to now throwing something.
Now you're smashing something, Now you're hitting someone, you
know, now you're spitting it. So it's this escalation.
And sometimes what happens is a child is trying to communicate
something is really not right in my world.
I don't know what to do about it.
I can't quite cope with this. But I'm letting you know in the
best way I can, if they were able to communicate in a more
healthy or more useful way, they probably would.
But they can't for whatever reason.
So they're, they're communicating it through their
behaviours, through their actions, through their responses
to difficulty. So one reason why we do it is we
are active in showing that we see the difficulty.
So your child doesn't have to show you in such extreme terms
essentially. So that's one reason why we use
validation sometimes if a child is using this behaviour or using
these responses or you know, acting in this way.
And the the root problem, the reason why this behaviour is
happening in the 1st place doesn't change.
And, and very often that's a problem within themselves.
So they're feeling they cannot cope with something they're
suffering with that they can't move past and, and they, they
use this behaviour to communicate the difficulty and
the problem stays the same. Then they start to lose trust in
the adults, the important adults around them, the most loved
adults, their parents, that they can actually help them.
They lose trust that, that they can actually step in and, and
stop this harm from happening to them because they're
communicating it and they're, they're showing everyone that,
oh, you know, I'm really struggling here and no one's
been able to take it away many times.
These these are hidden problems as well.
So how would you know? Because your child can't
communicate with you in terms of their words and say, look, this
is the problem here. So the problem stays the same.
So the child loses trust that the adults can actually do
anything about their suffering, about their, their issue they're
facing. So then what they do is they try
and take control of the problem themselves by using harmful,
controlling, aggressive behaviours to make everything in
their world do exactly what they think it needs to do in order
for them to feel OK, OK, no, I, I, I want to go and do this.
So you need to let me do it. I want to.
I need to be in control. If I'm in control, I'm going to
feel better. Control is linked to feeling
safe in many instances. Feeling out of control for some
is intolerable. They feel too unsafe when
they're not in control. So, you know, so another,
another reason why we do it is, is we're communicating to that
child. If we are aware of that
difficulty, then then there's the idea that, well, if maybe
you can help me with this, because that child isn't going
to believe that you can help them if they don't even believe
you're even aware of the problem in the 1st place.
Do you get how serious this feels to them?
So one is if we can be active in communicating that we see the
difficulty, they don't have to be as extreme in, in how they
are communicating that that pain or that difficulty.
And then the second thing is, if we're showing them that we're,
we're aware of this issue, then they start to trust that maybe
we can help them with it. So it starts to rebuild that
trust and that connection. And, and then third is that when
a child uses this behaviour, it will damage your relationship
with that child. You know, there'll be times when
you really angry them. There'll be times when you're
really scared of them. You know, you, you can, you can
have lots of conflicting emotions, really worried for
them, really worried for yourself, really angry at them,
really concerned, you know, all of this at the same time.
But, you know, I've heard lots of times parents saying, you
know, I love my child, but I don't want to be near him.
I don't want to be around him. I don't like him.
I love him. Yeah, I don't like him.
And that obviously is affecting the relationship.
So we need to address that because what we know about this
behaviour is very often there's a relationship fracture there.
We need to focus on strengthening the relationship
in order to move past this. So we go from normalising being
in a, you know, a, a constant sort of cycle of conflict to
moving towards more like corporation.
And we need, we need a relationship for that.
Oh, my cat's about to jump up. I think you might see her a
little bit more today. She's just been spayed, so she's
got her collar on. So where was I?
Cam, you're putting me off. So yeah.
So we need to focus on on building that trust.
You can actually help with it with the issue.
And as I said, when a child is is using this behaviour, it
affects your relationship and that becomes another problem
that child is dealing with because children need strong
attachments to their parents, really their primary caregivers,
for them to develop wealth, for them to feel safe and secure,
they need that strong attachment.
So when we use validation in this way, it's a really good way
of showing empathy and compassion because there may be
times when you're not feeling very compassionate and it's hard
to, it's hard to show that and go, yeah, you know what you, you
may be waiting for, for that feeling of compassion to come
up. But it's hard to have that just
come up naturally when a child is just screaming at you,
shouting at you, may be hitting you, may be punching you,
breaking things, trashing your house.
But in order to, like I say, start a new cycle where we're
not just in this never ending cycle of conflict, there needs
to be a break. We need to show compassion, we
need to try and understand it from someone else's point of
view, have that empathy and go, right, I'm suffering, but you're
suffering as well. What's this like for you?
So when it doesn't come up naturally, making sure you are
thinking about these validation statements and, and making these
validation statements can kind of kick start that empathy a
little bit. So those are our three main
reasons why we use validation. And now I'm going to talk a
little bit about kind of how we do it, how we'd suggest you do
it. We're not always as prescriptive
as this, but in this case, I think it's quite, quite good to
be prescriptive because we've, we've kind of tweaked this and,
and developed it through talking with, you know, so many
families, hundreds, hundreds of families.
And in in a lot of cases, we, we see this works for quite a few
people. And obviously nothing works for
everyone all the time. We've already talked about that.
But it is, you know, this is quite a good starting place to
give it a try like this. So how we do it?
First of all, I'd recommend you do this when your child is, you
know, regulated, when they are able to regulate their emotions,
when things are calmer. And in a previous episode, we
talked about, we did the three faces.
And so thinking about that, when your child is at face number
one, you know, when they've got that good balance between the
thinking and the feeling parts of their brain, that's when you
want to make these statements. You might not get many
opportunities for that. So, you know, you might have to
pick your time, but we're looking for those times where
they're a little bit more balanced, a little bit more
regulated. So that's that's kind of the
first thing. Secondly, it's a really short,
simple statement. It's not a question, never a
question. There's nothing added on the
end. It is simply, you know, I've,
I've been thinking I can, I can only imagine how tough that was
for you that whatever it, that the issue is happened.
And, and, and as I said, this could be something that happened
yesterday. It could be something that
happened two years ago. Find to use historic things
where it's really important to do, you know, use historic
issues, things that haven't maybe been fully addressed, but
also things that, you know, yesterday you got really angry
because, you know, you, we couldn't get a take away when
you wanted one or, you know, we said no more, no more time on
the switch now. And it, and it was really
frustrating, whatever those issues are.
And, and it doesn't mean that you have to think that the
response to them was valid, but you again, we're just thinking
about what the issue is. So it's a, it's a short, simple
statement. So we're saying, OK, imagine how
how frustrating that was for you or how upsetting or how, you
know, scary that whatever it might be, but we're not going to
make it a question. We're not going to say, do you
want to talk about it? And what was that like when this
happened? Or what do you think we could do
differently next time? We're not, we're not doing that
with validation. This, these are all relevant
things, but that's not what we're doing when we're talking
about validation. So no questions.
There's no pressure to have a conversation here.
We're not expecting a response. We are making this statement to
communicate that we're paying attention to the difficulty that
they're that they're experiencing.
And there's one thread to this conversation.
It's not a conversation. One thread to this
communication. OK.
The that one thread is, you know, I'm observing that.
I think that was really tough. That's it.
I'm not going to say, you know, when I was your age, I remember
a time that was similar introducing our experience.
We're not doing that here. We're not going to say, you
know, I can see that was really tough.
But you still can't act like that.
Well, but we still have to, you know, I, I know you really, it's
really tough for you to, to go to school, but you still have to
go. OK, we're going to leave that
butt off the end. We're going to leave any other
threads to this communication out of it.
We just want one single thread, one really simple statement.
I can imagine that was really tough because what can often
happen is you start off with, you know, what you're intending
to say is I recognise how difficult that is.
One thread and then you go, but you know, you still have to go
to school another thread. But I do know how tough it was
because I remember when I was your age and three threads, 3
threads, 3 threads. And you know, this is getting
confusing, this is getting convoluted and we can't be sure
that the real important part that is I can see this is
difficult for you is the bit that's going to get through.
This becomes even more relevant when we're dealing with people,
when you're a divergent, maybe there may be difficulty in
communication or in processing. There's multiple threads at the
same time. Equally, when we are when we
when, when we have normalised conflict in a relationship,
we're on the lookout for that conflict at any at any
opportunity. So even though your main thing
you're trying to get across is trying to communicate compassion
and empathy, what gets picked up is but you can't do that.
Ah, so you're trying to change me.
Ah, So what I'm doing isn't good enough.
Yeah, you're always on at me. You're always trying to get me.
And that's the bit is, that's the bit that's going to be
responded to. So it can lead to conflict,
further conflict. It's much harder to do that when
we're just saying, I guess that's tough and then we're
leaving it there. So 11 thread of communication
and then a, another really important part of this is once
you've made this statement and this is going to feel a bit
weird, right? And no two ways about it.
I think for most people this feels strange.
You're going to be bringing this first of all, couple of weird
things. You're going to be bringing this
up in a quiet time when your child isn't showing you there's
a big problem. That's going to feel weird in
itself because you're like, what?
So I'm just, you know, they're staring there watching TV and I
walk in and go, you know what? I can't imagine how frustrating
that was yesterday when your sister sat in that chair that
you wanted to sit in and it made you really angry.
I get that was tough. It's come from nowhere.
Everyone's going to be a bit like, right, What's going on
here? It will feel weird, but that's
all right. You know it.
At least now you know, for what is it?
Forewarned is forearmed, I think.
Is that what they say? I don't know.
Maybe. Anyway.
So it's going to be kind of coming out of nowhere, a bit
strange. And then once you've made this
statement, you're then going to move to a different physical
location in your home. So however your home's set up,
say you have a sitting room and you know your child's in there
watching TV. Maybe you go in there, you say
whatever it is, whatever validation statement you choose
to make, short, simple, one thread.
And then you're literally going to go somewhere else.
You're going to go to the kitchen, you're going to go and
make a cup of tea. You know you're going to get
started cooking dinner, you're going to go sit in the garden,
read a book for half an hour. If you're lucky enough to have a
garden, you know whenever it is, you're not going to just stay
there because it's really important that you communicate.
We're not trying to have a conversation here.
I don't need an answer from you. I don't need anything from you.
There's no pressure on you to to, to do anything here.
That's not your reason for making this statement.
Your reason for making this statement is to show to your
child that you're paying attention to this, this threat
to their well-being, this danger that they perceive that they're
not sure that anyone else's. My cat is going crazy now.
I don't know if you heard that she's having a bit of a mad half
hour. This, this kind of like I said,
this threat to their to their well-being that they don't trust
that the adults have picked up on.
So that's why you're doing it. So this isn't a, this isn't a
kind of, you know, oh, I'm going to say it once and it fixes
everything. This is about rebuilding trust,
rebuilding communication, rebuilding that relationship.
So, yeah, the fact that you make the statement and then walk away
basically shows to your child, we're not trying to have a
conversation here. There's no pressure.
I don't have to give you anything back.
This isn't about what you as the adult gets out of it, you as the
parent gets out of it. This is about I'm showing you
that I that I see this this issue and this is a really big
deal for you. It will feel weird most likely,
but the more you practise, the easier it gets.
So, you know, give it a try. Equally, it may be that, you
know, you make this statement and child goes, you don't
understand what it's like for me or whatever it may be in maybe
in stronger terms than that. Very often a child will have
heard that first bit of validation.
You know, I can see that really made you angry.
But they will be primed to expect the second bit that
normally comes, which is but you can't hear, but you can't do
that, but you still have to. And as soon as I hear the first
bit, they're already feeling in the in the second bit
themselves. So they may respond as if you've
said the second bit, it may take them, may take you 1015 times of
trying this before they trust that the second bit isn't
coming. OK, so it may feel awkward, but
you're going to be practising this quite a few times anyway.
So, you know, give it a go. Hello Cam.
So validation, short simple statement.
Do it when they're, you know, at face, face #1 when they're, when
they're able, when they're more regulated emotionally, But
there's there's no questions, there's no expectations of
anything to come back. So we're going to make the
statement and then we're going to move away.
Now by doing that, your child can then process what you're
saying to them in their own time, in their own way.
If you, if you make a statement like that and then you say, do
you want to talk about it, that child has to have an answer for
you. They have to know what they feel
about it there and then If I'm asking a question, if I'm asking
a question, I'm expecting an answer back pretty pretty soon.
You know, probably not going to sit here and wait for half an
hour for the answer, but it may be that your child needs half an
hour, 2 hours a day to actually think about what it is they've
just heard from you. So by giving them that space, by
making the statement and then and then moving on, you allow
them to process it in their own time, in their own way, as I
said. And what might happen is they
come back to you in half an hour into two hours time in in a day
later and say, you know what, Mom?
You know what, Dad? You know what, Grand Granddad
that. Yeah, that that was really hard
or yeah, I am really struggling with this, whatever it might be.
But the difference being that if they come to you to initiate
that conversation, they're in control of that.
They've had time to process it. They know what they want to say
to you. So the chances are that that
conversation is going to go much, much better.
You're going to actually get somewhere with that.
Rather than saying, that was really tough, why don't you tell
me what's going on, tell me what's wrong.
We can talk about it. I can help you.
We can talk this through. Likelihood is the pressure there
is going to mean that that conversation isn't going to go
well. Very different dynamic when the
child is, you know, initiating it.
So that's validation essentially.
I spoke in the previous podcast about when I was doing the three
faces about something that can help to get your child to face
#1A little bit more regularly. And validation is a really a
really good way of doing that because what it does is it
creates an atmosphere where we're recognising this
difficulty where we're saying, yeah, that is really tough.
So that means that child doesn't have to mask so much.
It's, it's OK to feel that way. We're recognising that.
And so that means, yeah, less time at face #3.
It also means because we're making this validation statement
when they're at face #1 when they have their thinking brain
online and their, and their feeling brain online, it means
they're able to, you know, have a little look at what they're
feeling here in a very low pressure environment situation.
And they've got enough thinking brain online to be able to kind
of make sense of it as well. So they can, they can start
making sense of it, processing it, and then begin to move past
it maybe to think about what they can, you know, asking for
help, who knows. We've had some really, really
positive responses from, from parents when they, you know,
when they've tried validation. Most parents have said it felt
weird and it, I think, you know, it just does, like I said,
you're bringing it up kind of out of the blue and then you're
walking away. It's, it's not a very normal
thing to do. Also, we don't often focus on
those more difficult parts of life.
We're very good at praise, you know, well done, really proud of
you. That was really hard and you did
it anyway. Good work that comes naturally.
What we don't do so much of is that was just really tough.
So what we're doing is if we only focus on praise, we're
looking at the, you know, parts of life that we celebrate and
we're just completely ignoring the parts of life that are just
really, really tough, really hard.
So that's ignoring half of your child's experience, potentially
maybe more, maybe less, who knows.
But so so we're just kind of balancing balancing that out a
little bit with validation. We're looking at the good stuff,
carry on using praises really, really important.
You have to, you know, pray successes, but we're also
balancing that with but these things are just really
difficult. There's no praise involved in
it. We're not doing that.
We're just saying, wow, that's tough.
That is an equal part of our experience in life.
So yeah, I think I've waffled on probably quite a long time.
Hopefully there's some some useful bits in there, you know,
get in contact with us. If you'd like to know a little
bit more, you send us an e-mail, check out the website.
But yeah, hoefully it was useful and hopefully we'll see it next
time.