1 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:06,960 Hello and welcome to the Kappa Podcast. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,280 My name is Matt. I'm the Senior Practitioner for 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,960 Kappa First Response and I'm joined today as ever by our 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,280 Founder and CEO, Jane Griffiths. Hi, Jane. 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,880 Hey Matt, how you doing? So lovely to be here. 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,120 With you, with me, face to face, I know. 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,600 In your lovely flat sunny. It's a rare treat, isn't it? 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,560 Fantastic. It you know what, It is a rare 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,000 treat. Yeah, I think it. 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,280 It's so lovely to be together to record this. 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Yeah, I agree. I agree. 12 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:32,960 It already feels a lot more real. 13 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,680 Yeah, Yeah. So this series is going to be 14 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,960 slightly different to what we've done previously, isn't it? 15 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,880 Do you want to say a little bit about about why we're doing this 16 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,480 series to begin with? Yeah. 17 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,960 Well, I mean, I guess our previous series that we we've 18 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,440 thought about, we've sort of been in conversation with or 19 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,320 we've been zooming and and speaking to particular people 20 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,480 about particular issues. This one is really designed for 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,760 families who feel a bit more isolated, whether that be via 22 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,160 location or through circumstances and their 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,960 experience, feel like they're unable to talk to people. 24 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,920 And we wanted to provide something that families could 25 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,680 access 24/7 regardless of their locations. 26 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:18,680 I also think it's really important to say that East 27 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,120 Sussex local authority sort of really commissioned us to do 28 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,400 this because they really wanted to support families living in 29 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,280 those rural outlying areas who found it really, really 30 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,560 difficult to get support. And we'll be offering, well, I 31 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,640 guess if we were to sit, Matt, and think about what would be 32 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:43,320 our top five or six strategies, we're sort of aiming to to sort 33 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:47,280 of think about those strategies for families, aren't we? 34 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,200 That's what the series is going to be about. 35 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,880 Yeah. So it's, it's a little bit more, 36 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,680 it's going to be a little bit, I mean, I think hopefully all, all 37 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,280 of our podcasts have been useful, but this is a bit more, 38 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,080 something a bit more tangible, a bit more solid that people can 39 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,080 use and put into practise. Yeah. 40 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,040 We're not thinking about, you know, this, these episodes 41 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,160 aren't for about us understanding what this issue 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,400 is. This is really let's go, what's 43 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,040 the support that we offer to families and let's share that, 44 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,600 Yeah. I think you said a minute ago 45 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,880 that these are like probably 5 or six of our top strategies 46 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,680 that we, we know are useful to quite a few different families 47 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,400 that we work with. But it's always really important 48 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,800 to say that nothing works all of the time. 49 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:36,280 And there isn't one thing that is going to work for every 50 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,080 single family. And if even if it works for that 51 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,680 family, it doesn't mean that it's going to work 100% of the 52 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,480 time. So it's just important that we 53 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,960 say that at the at the top, I think to say these are all ideas 54 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,520 that, you know, have a listen, keep it in mind. 55 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,840 Hopefully you think I'm going to give that a try. 56 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,920 But even if you think it's not going to work for me, it doesn't 57 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:00,640 feel quite right. Hopefully you'll still think 58 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:03,680 about the idea behind it. And even if you don't action 59 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,480 anything from it, you can think about why, why it might be 60 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:07,960 useful and why it might be important. 61 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:09,480 And hopefully there's some use in that as well. 62 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,760 Yeah. And and I think, you know, a 63 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,200 reminder that all of our work and all of our support to 64 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,400 families is tailored and bespoke. 65 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,160 You know, we speak to families and think what's happening for 66 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,120 them in their home and we can, you know, it could be that we 67 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,720 don't talk about any of these strategies, but generally what 68 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,560 we've found out is these strategies come into our support 69 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,320 at some point for families. And there will be somebody out 70 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,400 there listening to this and maybe think I can't, I can't get 71 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,840 on board with what Matt, I can't get on board with what that that 72 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:41,400 strategy that you've spoken about. 73 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,080 But I can really get on board with this other strategy. 74 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,320 And we we anticipate that and expect that. 75 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,080 I think what's important as well is that, you know, everything 76 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,640 and all everything we're going to be sharing on the in this 77 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,960 series, it's not necessary. It's not going to do any harm. 78 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,800 It's all about it's all relationship building. 79 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,760 And that's only a positive thing. 80 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,120 You may see things and we'll talk about that and what in one 81 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,320 of the episodes that we're going to be presenting about, you 82 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,000 know, what can happen if actually things do feel 83 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,240 different. My child has noticed something 84 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,240 different. What do I do then? 85 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,440 So, and we will we'll sort of address that weren't we want to 86 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,000 I think it's Episode 2 when we're thinking about our safety 87 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,880 Lanning. OK, so, so that's a little bit 88 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,320 about why we're doing it and you know, some of the things we're 89 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,240 going to be covering, but it's going to it's going to look a 90 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,440 little bit different from our other podcasts, right? 91 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,400 Yep, Yeah. So, you know, up until now it's 92 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,240 been us chatting, hasn't it, And having conversations. 93 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,880 Yeah. What we've decided to do with 94 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,240 this, which will look a little bit different, is the beginning 95 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,600 of every episode. We'll have a little explanation 96 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,040 around what we're doing. You know, this isn't about 97 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,120 explaining why this happens, because we've done that. 98 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,080 This is about sharing those strategies, how we would share 99 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,560 them with a family. So we're doing it separately. 100 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,840 So I'm going to be presenting three of them and thinking about 101 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:08,400 3 strategies and you're going to be presenting three of them and 102 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,080 support 3 strategies. But we're doing them solo. 103 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,600 So they won't have that opportunity of a back and forth. 104 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:16,960 And I think that that's going to be the main difference that 105 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,640 people will see. Yeah, and I think that's 106 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,400 hopefully will make it a little bit more useful because you can 107 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,760 follow along. It's not you're not listening to 108 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,000 a conversation like you're saying of us back and forth. 109 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,440 You're listening to us giving you a strategy as we would, you 110 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,120 know, in a session if, you know, as we were explaining it to you 111 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,120 and and kind of telling you why we're suggesting you do this, 112 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,200 what what the background is to it. 113 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,640 Is there anything else we've missed, Jane? 114 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,480 I think we, I don't think we have. 115 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,800 Hopefully we can just let's do it. 116 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,080 Let's go all. Right, let's get into it. 117 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,200 Matt, so episode 4, yeah. And today you are going to be 118 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,040 presenting about the drama triangle. 119 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,000 Yeah. And the communication pie. 120 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,360 Do you want to talk a little bit more about this? 121 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,840 Yeah. So two really important things 122 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:10,720 that I think we we often talk about with parents in sessions 123 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,640 because again, they help you to view what's going on a little 124 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,360 bit more from a sort of bird's eye view rather than just being 125 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,280 in the middle of it, you know, being caught up in and it's all 126 00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:24,320 flying around you. It's so hard to make sense of it 127 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,600 when it's like that. The drama triangle, the 128 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,560 Cartman's drama triangle is useful as a way of understanding 129 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:39,600 conflict and thinking about the roles and the dynamics when 130 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,360 we're in conflict. So that can be really useful, 131 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,880 help you to kind of see rather than this is happening to me, 132 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,760 this is happening a little bit, OK. 133 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,920 These are the roles we are taking up here and, and 134 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,600 observing how they shift. So that's really useful. 135 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:01,080 And the communication pie is a really good way of thinking 136 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:06,920 about our communication and how what we can, what the, the, the 137 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,600 areas of our communication that are most important, essentially 138 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,400 what's carrying the most weight and what what messages are 139 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,240 getting through. Now, sometimes the communication 140 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,520 point, what we're going to talk about in that can link into the 141 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,560 drama triangle because what happens in the communication 142 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,760 aspect is what can set that drama triangle in motion. 143 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,480 So we'll look at them both together. 144 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:31,240 So, yeah. And. 145 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,960 I think it's very important to, you know, emphasise as well that 146 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,800 communication is key, isn't it, in a lot of the support that 147 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,520 we're offering to family? Isn't it really? 148 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,560 It's not, it's not also only how you communicate with your child, 149 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,240 but how do you communicate with everybody else around you? 150 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,040 And that's what I like about all the strategies really. 151 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,520 We think about they, they can be put across all aspects of your 152 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:58,600 life, all of us, you know, And it's the more we embed them, the 153 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,840 more they just become natural to us. 154 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,200 So how? How many times have you heard 155 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,200 that I was using the, I was using the drama triangle. 156 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,960 I was thinking about validation with my, my husband or with my, 157 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,480 my wife or my partner. And it's, it's really nice when 158 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:13,920 you do hear those things because. 159 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,360 And then you see it everywhere, Matt. 160 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,960 Yeah. Suddenly we introduce the drama 161 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,240 triangle or even the communication play, and we're 162 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,480 like, Oh my God, my tone of voice. 163 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,080 Oh my goodness. You know, you start thinking 164 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,880 much more mindfully. Yeah, about how we're 165 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,400 communicating, which is why I think they're really important 166 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,520 ones. You know what that word mindful 167 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,120 mindfully, it's that awareness, isn't it? 168 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,640 Yeah. That you start looking at things 169 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,039 in slightly different ways. Because very often when you, 170 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:43,159 when you're experiencing issues like, like what we're talking 171 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:46,240 about, it's my cat going wild over there. 172 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:46,640 Jane. Yeah. 173 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,000 My cat, you know, she lives here as well, so she's, she may make 174 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,040 an appearance, but yeah, sometimes you can get stuck in 175 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,680 one way of looking at things, especially when you spend so 176 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:02,400 much time in a heightened state yourself because you're in a, 177 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,040 what you're experiencing is triggering. 178 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,520 It's, it's so stressful, so difficult to deal with. 179 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,680 And our minds can become a little bit 1. 180 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,080 You know, they see things from one way. 181 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,680 So if we can just see things from a few different angles, we 182 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,920 can make a little bit of movement and that movement's 183 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,960 what's necessary in order to create change. 184 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,800 So you can go from being in a, you know, cycle of conflict to 185 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,360 to sort of being in that cycle of cooperation a little bit 186 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,720 more. I look forward to hearing more 187 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,800 in your presentation. Matt, Are you ready? 188 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:40,560 I am so the drama triangle and communication pie 2 separate, 2 189 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,680 separate things but but linked. So we're going to do them both 190 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,560 both together. They're both really useful, and 191 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:55,000 I think the thing that makes these particularly useful is 192 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:00,000 that it helps you to sort of look more of a bird's eye view 193 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,240 of what's going on rather than just being in it, things flying 194 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,720 at you from all angles. As I said, it helps you to make 195 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:13,240 a bit more sense of things. So it's a really useful model to 196 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:14,600 think about. We're starting with a drama 197 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,800 triangle. It's a really useful model when 198 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,040 we're thinking about what happens when we're in conflict 199 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,040 and the roles that we're likely to take up. 200 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,040 And it was, it was originally developed by Doctor Stephen 201 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:34,640 Cartman in the in the 1960s. And it's been used in various 202 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,160 settings. Obviously we're using it to 203 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,800 think about family dynamics and the relationships, the roles 204 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,960 within, within those, those complicated parent child 205 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:52,240 relationships. We've kind of, I guess, you 206 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:58,360 know, tweaked it for our for our work really, but there's loads 207 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,480 you can there's loads you can read about this online. 208 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:04,800 So if you're interested, you know, really encourage you to to 209 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,960 look more into it. So the drama triangle, I'm going 210 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,960 to draw it out. If you imagine an upside down 211 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,400 triangle, so I say upside down triangle. 212 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,280 Is there an outside? I don't know if there's that 213 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,320 even makes sense, but where the base is at the top and then you 214 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,760 know the the single point is is at the bottom. 215 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,120 So if you want to draw this along, you can or just if you're 216 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,560 if you're watching, you can you can see see it's drawing it out. 217 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:41,480 So an upside down triangle, at the bottom point you have the 218 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:49,200 victim, at the top point, top left point you have the 219 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:55,280 persecutor, and at the top right point you have the rescuer. 220 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:01,360 Now these three roles are the ones that we are likely to go to 221 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,560 when we're in conflict. There's a few important things 222 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,360 to keep in mind here. The victim is down the bottom 223 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,080 for a reason. The victim. 224 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,840 Well, actually before I go into that, these roles are perceived. 225 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,200 OK, We're not saying this is absolute truth. 226 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,640 This is, you know, this person is definitely a victim. 227 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,640 This definite person is definitely a persecutor. 228 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,160 But this is how it will feel when you're in it. 229 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,240 These roles feel very real. You know, that's our perception 230 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,520 and our perception is our experience of life, you know, so 231 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,080 not saying it's absolute fact, but it's kind of how it will 232 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,120 feel. So down the bottom, you've got 233 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,840 the victim. The victim will feel sincerely, 234 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,240 sincerely as though they are a victim. 235 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,440 They'll feel powerless. They have no agency. 236 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,760 I think things are being done to them that they can't control. 237 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,360 You know, it's, it's that feeling that life is happening 238 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,360 to you doesn't feel fair. So that's the victim. 239 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,160 Now they're the only one at the bottom. 240 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:08,960 They perceive themselves to have no power. 241 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,000 The top 2 roles are the persecutor and the rescuer. 242 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,640 So the persecutor is perceived to be someone who is 243 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,280 domineering, may be critical. They probably make the rules, 244 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,000 they enforce the rules. They may be seen to be someone 245 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:33,280 who is, you know, overly harsh, gives out punishments, that kind 246 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,800 of thing. So that's the persecutor role. 247 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,720 And then over the other side, you have the rescuer, someone 248 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:44,240 who seeks to to rescue. It may be they, they seek a, a 249 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:45,960 victim that they can then rescue. 250 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,840 But again, that's a position of power. 251 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,880 The rescuer, you know, you're making choices for the other 252 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,360 person. I'm going to fix this for you. 253 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,040 Don't worry. I can step in. 254 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,400 I I have power here. I'm not powerless as you are. 255 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,040 So these are our three, our three roles, victim, rescuer and 256 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:11,480 persecutor. So I'm just looking at my notes. 257 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,720 Yeah, they're perceived. So the roles, there may be one 258 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,040 role that feels you may go, yeah, that's me, I'm the victim 259 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,960 here. And we may go, yeah, I'm the I'm 260 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,920 the rescuer. Now, you may be more likely to 261 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,320 take up one role than the others, but in all likelihood, 262 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,760 you're going to cycle between all three of these, or at least 263 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,160 a number of them. And they're going to and they're 264 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,840 going to change within a within a conflict. 265 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,640 And then over time they may change as well. 266 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,800 So none of us is ever just one role in all likelihood. 267 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,520 Now The thing is we're all kind of hard wired to take up these 268 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,520 roles, but they're not useful. So the idea being that if we can 269 00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:01,160 bring a greater awareness to to these roles and bring a greater 270 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,040 awareness to the, to the dynamic, what's kind of going on 271 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,920 within it, we can then become a little bit more, bit more 272 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,600 mindful and make kind of, I guess, more helpful choices in, 273 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,400 in terms of how we respond, how we react. 274 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:20,720 So I'll give you a quick example of of what may, how you may see 275 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:27,120 this playing out in your home. So let's say, you know, you've 276 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,240 said to your child, well, look, you can go on. 277 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,920 I don't know, you can, you can, you can go on your on your on 278 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:36,960 your Xbox tonight. But listen, you need to make 279 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,640 sure that that washing up's done and you've bring brought down 280 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,720 your dirty clothes. OK, put them in the washing 281 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,760 machine, something like that. So I'm going out to work Now you 282 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,240 get in, the dishes are still in the sink, the clothes are in the 283 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,640 washing machine. And you come and you say, well, 284 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,240 look, I told you to make sure the washing up was done. 285 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,240 But you're not going to, you're not going to use the Xbox until, 286 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,200 until you've done these these kind of chores, these these 287 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,480 jobs, which is completely fair enough. 288 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,560 But in that instance, you take up the role of persecutor. 289 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,760 Now, something I didn't mention earlier on, we can't be in two 290 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,120 places at one time. So you can't be both persecutor 291 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,400 and the victim at the same time. You can jump between them very 292 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,280 quickly, but you can't be both at the same time. 293 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,520 And if you're in one, someone else is going to be somewhere 294 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,000 else. And so as you take up the 295 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,440 persecutor role, you place your child in the victim role, they 296 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,800 are likely going to feel sincerely as, as though they're 297 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,040 a victim here. This isn't fair. 298 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,200 Yeah, but you don't get it. There's a reason why I didn't. 299 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,760 And you know, you're being unfair to me. 300 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,240 And no, why can't I play my Xbox or whatever it is in that 301 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,760 moment? As I said, you take the 302 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,480 persecute, you take out the persecutor role, places them in 303 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,720 victim. They feel as though they're a 304 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,360 victim. They feel this isn't fair. 305 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:05,359 This is being done to them now for many young people who who 306 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:06,760 struggle to regulate their emotions. 307 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:07,800 We've talked about this previously. 308 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,839 Often there's a there's a there's a reason why there may 309 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,760 be there may be a history of trauma. 310 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,839 There may be a reason why this person is particularly sensitive 311 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,480 to feeling out of control, why it's intolerable for them not to 312 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,720 be in control, for them to intolerable for them to feel as 313 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:27,920 though they're in that victim role. 314 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,520 So in all likelihood, the first sign that they get of being in 315 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,200 that victim role, something's going to jump up inside and go, 316 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:38,280 whoa, whoa, we can't deal with this. 317 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,480 So what they do is they're going to flip it. 318 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,280 So they can't tolerate being in that victim role. 319 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:47,920 And you're currently in that persecutor role. 320 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,920 So what they do is they flip it and they're going to come back 321 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,680 at you and go, Nah, you can't tell me what to do. 322 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,920 I'm not going to do that. In this instance, they've jumped 323 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,160 up to Persecutor and they've placed you down in Victim. 324 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,080 Now, OK, it's not fair. But what's happened is they're 325 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,320 safe now. They're out of that Victim role 326 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,400 where they feel powerless, where they feel helpless, where they 327 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,400 have no agency, no control, and they're in a position of power 328 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,240 and control. So now they feel safe. 329 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,760 They're they're out of that intolerable place down there in 330 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,200 Victim, but you found yourself there and you don't deserve to 331 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,400 be there. Now you feel unsafe and you're 332 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,360 going to be triggered and you may likely it's it's likely that 333 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:35,520 you, you then you think, well, I can't tolerate being here. 334 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,680 I don't deserve to be here. So what happens then is you go, 335 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,480 I'm not going to accept you talking to me like that. 336 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,200 If you carry on like that, then you know, you're not getting 337 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,960 your Xbox for another week. I'm taking it away. 338 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,360 You jumped up to that persecutor role you're trying to take, you 339 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,960 know, get that upper hand, be the persecutor to have that, 340 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,640 that power and that control, placing that child, your child 341 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,240 down in victim and they go, you aren't going to take my Xbox 342 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,320 away. I'm going to take her. 343 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,880 You come back, they come back, you come back, they come back 344 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,840 and you're jumping between these roles and victim and, and 345 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,280 persecutor. Now this is going to lead to an 346 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,880 escalation. Each time you do that, you know 347 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,080 the temperature's ramping up a little bit and it doesn't help 348 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,440 you. As we've spoke about previously, 349 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,960 your main aim initially always is to de escalate the situation. 350 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,960 Because when we de escalate, well, it's just the safest thing 351 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,040 to do. It's safer to de escalate. 352 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,920 So that's, that's our focus to begin with. 353 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,320 Also when we de escalate, we can then get a thinking brain back 354 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,720 online. We can have a conversation with 355 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,240 that, that part of the brain in that emotional state in, in this 356 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,680 instance, you know, we did three faces previously. 357 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,360 You know, maybe you're both heading up towards face #2 here 358 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,160 you both don't have a lot of your thinking brain online. 359 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,760 A lot of the, a lot of what's coming out is coming from that, 360 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,240 that feeling brain, which isn't the most rational. 361 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,520 So de escalation. And then we can then we can make 362 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,200 sense of it. That's always the first step. 363 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,440 But if we choose to not, we choose as if, well, kind of 364 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,560 choose, yeah. But it's hard to make that 365 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,280 choice. It's hard to be, to be aware of 366 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,080 that. But if we continue taking up 367 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,760 these roles, victim persecutor, we'll talk about rescuer in a 368 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,320 minute as well. Likelihood is this this conflict 369 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,320 is going to continue and it's going to escalate. 370 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,960 And you're, you're kind of vying for that, that upper hand of 371 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,520 being the persecutor to, to get control. 372 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,480 Now I'm going to talk, shall I talk about the yeah, I'm going 373 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,800 to talk about the, the rescuer role briefly. 374 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,160 So, so those, you know, most parents that I speak with those 375 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,720 the victim and persecutor roles, the ones they, they really 376 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,760 connect with. But also sometimes they can say, 377 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,800 look, I didn't do anything and it's just, and it just came out 378 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,760 of nowhere. We'll talk about this a bit more 379 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,440 in a moment as well when we come to the communication pipe, but 380 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:14,880 we'll talk about this in terms of the rescuer. 381 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:22,000 Sometimes by being the rescuer that reinforces the victim's 382 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,240 position as well. So there's a problem and you 383 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:27,360 step in. God, don't worry, I'm going to 384 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,320 deal with this. Ah, I've done this for you. 385 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,400 You don't need to do it now. You've done a nice thing, right? 386 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,440 And it's a, you know, it's helpful. 387 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,920 You may, you may think this is just a lovely thing I'm I'm 388 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,120 doing, and it can only be perceived in that way. 389 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,040 But what taking up that rescuer role can do sometimes is making 390 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,400 choices for the other person, the child in this case, taking 391 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,840 control away from them. It can be as well that by taking 392 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,480 up that rescuer role, you reinforce the idea that, you 393 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,640 know that child is the victim. You reinforce that idea that, 394 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,080 yeah, I can't solve this on my own. 395 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:11,280 I am powerless, I am helpless here and they can't tolerate 396 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,960 that as we've we've talked about. 397 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,040 So by you, by you doing something helpful at times, I'm 398 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,680 not saying by any means don't help your children, don't do 399 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,320 anything helpful. That's not it. 400 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,920 It's just bringing awareness to this. 401 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,920 But by taking up that rescuer role, you reinforce that idea of 402 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,400 the child being the victim or you take control away from them 403 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,400 by making a choice about something. 404 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,960 They can't tolerate that. And so you can very quickly go 405 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,920 from I just, I do, I was just helping out to your child 406 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,080 feeling as though they're the victim to not being able to 407 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,440 tolerate that, to jumping up to persecute to you ending up in 408 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,280 victim and you go, how do we end up here? 409 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,120 I was just helping you a second ago and now you're giving me all 410 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,640 this whole barrage of abuse. What's going on here? 411 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,280 So that can be what happens sometimes in terms of in terms 412 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,280 of the rescuer role in the victim and how they how that 413 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,600 dynamic works. So one thing to sort of 414 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,960 recognise these roles, but it's, it's good to know what to do 415 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,360 about it as well. Because as I said, if you, if 416 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:18,000 you take up any one of these three roles, likelihood is this 417 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,360 conflict's going to continue. If you allow yourself to view 418 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:25,240 yourself as a victim, most likely is you're not going to be 419 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,120 able to tolerate, you're going to have to try and jump up to 420 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,400 persecute her to get out that victim role. 421 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,200 It's going to carry things on. If your child feels as though 422 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,720 they're a victim, they're going to have to jump up to persecute 423 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,240 to to get out of it. If you take up that rescuer 424 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,160 role, it keeps your child in victim. 425 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,480 Again, it may perpetuate what's going on. 426 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,920 This, this is going to continue this, this conflict and this 427 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,120 escalation. So instead of responding from 428 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:55,000 any one of those three points on that triangle, instead the idea 429 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,160 is to respond from a kind of middle ground. 430 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:10,240 And that middle ground is 1 of responsibility and compassion. 431 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:21,800 So to start with responsibility, now knowing about this dynamic, 432 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,520 you know, as the adult, I guess in the room, you, you want to 433 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,760 take responsibility for saying I'm not going to play a part in 434 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,080 this carrying on. I'm not going to allow this, I'm 435 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,640 not going to allow myself to to be on this drama triangle to 436 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,480 just allow this to play out in this way. 437 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,880 I'm going to, I'm going to make a choice to do something about 438 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,560 it. Just taking responsibility, 439 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,520 taking action. So that's the first step, you 440 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,960 know, guiding things in a better direction, taking responsibility 441 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,280 for that. The second step is responding 442 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,640 with compassion. So recognising what was it that 443 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,720 got us on this drama triangle in the 1st place? 444 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,080 What was it that made my child feel as though they're a victim? 445 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:16,280 And you, you know, it may seem completely disproportionate, you 446 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,960 know, the reaction you got from, from what happened in the 1st 447 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,800 place. But the idea is to think, what 448 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,520 was it that that they felt was was too much for them? 449 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,520 They couldn't tolerate, they put them in that victim role that 450 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,240 they couldn't tolerate that they had to get out of. 451 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,120 So, you know, it's one thing to talk about this stuff is it's 452 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:35,560 another thing to actually put into practise. 453 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,360 It's really hard. But so to start with taking that 454 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,400 responsibility, choosing to do something different. 455 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,480 Secondly, responding with compassion and going right when 456 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,440 I said, Oh, you know, you said you were going to do the, the, 457 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,120 you know, come back to that initial sort of example. 458 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,440 I told you to do the dishes. You said you're going to do the 459 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,400 dishes and bring down your, your dirty washing. 460 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,560 You didn't do that. Maybe you were perceived to be 461 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,440 critical there and you're telling them what you've done 462 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,640 isn't good enough. It's fair enough. 463 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,360 It it maybe you know, it wasn't good enough. 464 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,960 But again, thinking about that sensitivity, then being on a 465 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,360 like on a hair trigger to if they perceive you to be in that 466 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,160 persecutor role, which places them in victim, how quickly 467 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,240 they're going to respond to protect themselves. 468 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,360 So maybe they thought, well, you're being critical when you 469 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,000 said, you know, you're you're not going to get your 470 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,600 PlayStation for for a week when you're not getting your 471 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,760 PlayStation until you've done it. 472 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,600 You're enforcing that wrong, that rule. 473 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,200 Sorry, you're withholding this thing they think they need for 474 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,200 their for their own enjoyment, for their own happiness and 475 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,880 well-being. You're, you're kind of setting 476 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,120 that, setting that rule and enforcing, enforcing that rule, 477 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,960 which is a really important thing you have to do. 478 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,160 So I'm not saying that you just go, oh, no, no, no, take take 479 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,040 the Xbox. It's fine. 480 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,560 And you know, no worries. But what I am saying is that you 481 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,200 recognise where the difficulty was to begin with, right? 482 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,160 You know what it was really it felt like I was I was giving you 483 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,480 a hard time or you know, it was really frustrating because you 484 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:13,880 you were hearing that you wouldn't be able to get your 485 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,080 Xbox and how important that is to you. 486 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,520 I get that could be difficult. So what we're going to do is 487 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,200 when I say responding with compassion, we then thinking 488 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,680 about validation. So previously we've talked about 489 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,480 validation. If you haven't listened to that 490 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,360 episode, go back and have a have a listen to that one. 491 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,080 But we've talked about using validation in the quieter moment 492 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,720 here. We're using the validation in 493 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,320 the moment. So as things are kind of blowing 494 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,680 up a little bit, we're going to use validation as a way just to 495 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,400 de escalate to connect. This is linking back to the 496 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,040 three faces. Listen to that episode as well. 497 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,120 But we're connecting, you know, the emotional brain that's or 498 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:51,240 the, the feeling brain that's kind of running the show at that 499 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,600 moment where people are becoming heightened, struggling to 500 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,160 regulate their emotions. We're going to connect with that 501 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,200 part of the brain, the brain that's going, this isn't right. 502 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,320 And I need, you know, I need you to recognise this. 503 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,160 That's the bit you're going to connect with. 504 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,400 Not like, wait a minute. No, you understood it. 505 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,640 We said that if you didn't do this, these chores, you 506 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,200 wouldn't. We're not going to try and 507 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,680 rationalise it. We're not going to try and 508 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,200 connect with that thinking part of the brain that's likely going 509 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,880 to push us further into dysregulation. 510 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,800 We're going to connect with the emotional part of the brain 511 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,120 that's going, this doesn't feel fair. 512 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,240 I don't feel safe. I don't feel in control here. 513 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,200 This doesn't feel good. That's the that's the dominant 514 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,600 part of the brain. So we're going to connect with 515 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,600 that and we're going to use validation in that moment and 516 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,720 go, you know what? I get how I get how upsetting 517 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,480 that is. I can see how that would have 518 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,080 been it. It might have felt like I was 519 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,920 being really critical there. It might have felt like I was 520 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,640 giving you a hard time having a go, whatever it might be. 521 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,040 Because when you do that, instead of taking up the 522 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,880 persecutor role against the victim, you know, when, when 523 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,160 it's persecuted versus victim and you're both swapping it and 524 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,720 trying to, you know, trying to stay out of that victim role, 525 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,000 trying to gain that upper hand and you're in conflict with each 526 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,800 other. The problem is the other person 527 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,280 trying to take your safety away, trying to take that persecutor 528 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,440 wrong, trying to keep you down invicted. 529 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,840 You're you're against each other. 530 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,680 The problem, like I say, is the other person there, when you 531 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,880 step out of that and you choose that middle ground of, of 532 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,440 responsibility and and compassion, what you're doing is 533 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,160 now you're standing more side by side and you're looking at the 534 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,920 problem going right. I get how frustrating I was. 535 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,960 I get how upsetting that was. Yeah, they may, they may still 536 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:40,040 be angry with you, but the issue is this overwhelming emotion 537 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,200 that they're not able to regulate, they're not able to 538 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,920 control. That's the real problem here. 539 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,880 The emotional response, the thing that's making them feel. 540 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,720 I feel so angry. I feel so bad. 541 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,520 OK, so we're stepping back and we're looking at that and going, 542 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,800 yeah, I get that. It's really tough. 543 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,680 I can understand how upsetting that is. 544 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,760 So instead of it being like we're against each other, we're 545 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,920 we're more side by side and we're looking at the problem 546 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,080 together. Now, most times this takes a lot 547 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,040 of the heat out of out of a conflict and it will, it will 548 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,720 stop escalation or it will reduce it or slow it down, gives 549 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,800 you a little bit more control, a little bit more breathing room. 550 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,720 It may be that you kind of, you know, some, sometimes people 551 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,320 will kind of name it and go if you've talked about it 552 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,320 beforehand with your, with your child, you may be able to go. 553 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,640 You know what, I think we're on that drama triangle. 554 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,880 I'm going to, I'm going to go get a glass of water. 555 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,160 I'm going to go and get myself a drink. 556 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,560 I'm going to come back. I just need to give myself a 557 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,520 moment. You know, some people, some 558 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,240 people you can use that as well. But I think it's really 559 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,400 important that you just you bring an awareness to these 560 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,120 roles. Look out for it anyway. 561 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,440 You can see it happening at work, you can see it happening 562 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,320 on on the TV. You know, you probably see it in 563 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,080 your friendships, different relationships. 564 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,160 We're all sort of hard wired to respond in these ways. 565 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,560 And when you bring an awareness to it, you start noticing it 566 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,720 everywhere. And the more you notice it, the 567 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,400 quicker you get at noticing it when you're in the middle of it 568 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,560 and you go, OK, I know what's happening here, right? 569 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,120 You've just taken up that victim role because you think I've 570 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,080 taken up that persecutor role and you've jumped up to 571 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,440 persecutor and now I'm a victim and I'm feeling really triggered 572 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,040 myself. And you know, it helps you to 573 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,360 make a little bit of sense of it. 574 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,320 So that's the drama triangle essentially. 575 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,360 Now, I once spoke with a parent and she said something that was 576 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,160 really powerful and she said I realised that, you know, she 577 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,880 really connects with that. And she said I realised that all 578 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,200 this time we were on that drama triangle and we'd have these 579 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,240 this conflict that would be escalating all the time. 580 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,040 And the best that I was trying to hope for in those times was 581 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,520 that I was trying to keep my child in victim and I was trying 582 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,920 to end up basically in persecute her. 583 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,080 It's like if I continue doing that, that's the best I can hope 584 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,680 for, that I keep my child in victim that they, they, they 585 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,560 feel as though they're a victim and I have the upper hand. 586 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,240 So I don't want to do that. And it was, I just thought it 587 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:17,080 was really powerful because what we're hoping for is, you know, 588 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,200 again, normalising that cooperation rather than being in 589 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,040 conflict and being like, I have to win so that you lose. 590 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,360 You know, it's that we both can look at the problem together. 591 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,080 We can both win and we can both go, wow, that's really tough. 592 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,960 We're not in conflict with each other. 593 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,360 We're both looking at a problem going. 594 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,760 That's difficult. Now, sometimes we can get onto 595 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:45,080 the drama triangle through, you know, like I said, we it can be 596 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,600 through the, you know, taking out that rescuer role. 597 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,440 Let me fix that for you. I'm going to sort that out. 598 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,400 I'm going to I'm going to step in and do that making making the 599 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,800 other person feel reinforcing the idea that they are a victim 600 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,120 feel powerless. Sometimes it's due to our 601 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,200 communication. So I'm going to talk to you 602 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,040 about communication pie as well now. 603 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,920 So it's a 11 today. You get in there two lots of 604 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,760 good stuff, hopefully. So the communication pie is 605 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,560 really useful so that we do with parents to kind of keep an eye 606 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,360 on where we're focusing our energy and attention when it 607 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,200 comes to our communication. Now everything we're talking 608 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,000 about is all about communication. 609 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,040 You know, humans, communication is vital for us. 610 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,120 We, we experience life through our communications, mostly with 611 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,520 other people. So it's it's really important we 612 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:51,120 bring a lot of awareness to it. So if you're following along 613 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,920 with this, maybe you can maybe you can draw this, this out or 614 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,920 you may, you know, I just want to watch it. 615 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:04,760 If you're watching it on the video, if you're listening, I 616 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,880 hope this makes sense to you. If you're listening and not 617 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,560 following, you know, not drawing it out as well. 618 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,639 I hope you can visualise this. So what I'd like to do is draw a 619 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:17,199 circle and kind of imagine it imagining that this circle's a 620 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,880 clock face. I'd like to draw a line from the 621 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,280 middle of that circle up to 12:00. 622 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,760 So just a straight line from the middle straight up to the top of 623 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,719 that circle. Then draw another line from the 624 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,920 middle of that circle up to where 2:00 would be. 625 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,040 Again, I don't want you to draw the numbers on just imagining 626 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,880 roughly where 2:00 would be on a clock face. 627 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,199 Draw a line there, and then I'd like to draw a line down to 628 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:47,040 where 5:00 would be. So you should now have what 629 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:53,520 looks like a pie chart with three segments, one quite small 630 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:58,560 segment up the top, then a bit more of a chunky segment, you 631 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,640 know, put off to the side, and then a final segment, just over 632 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:09,280 half of this pie chart. So in the small segment, right, 633 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:17,280 7%, that's 7% of this pie chart. In the next segment 38% and then 634 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,640 in the biggest segment of this pie chart going to put 55%. 635 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:31,040 So these segments are going to represent the different parts of 636 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,880 our communication. So we have three main areas of 637 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:40,680 our communication. One is our non verbal 638 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,600 communication. So all body language, you know, 639 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,720 however you want to put it, these are parts of communication 640 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,920 that essentially the bits that we can see. 641 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,040 So it's facial expressions, it's what we're doing with our hands. 642 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,440 It's, you know, are we tapping our foot? 643 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,480 Are we picking our nails, smiling? 644 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,360 How closely am I standing to you? 645 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,200 You know, all those things, what's my posture, my arms 646 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,800 crossed, all those things that we can see that we, we pick up 647 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,920 on through, through what we've what we're seeing visually of 648 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,680 the other person. So those non verbal 649 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,400 communications, you know, body language. 650 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,400 So that's one, one part of our communication. 651 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:29,920 Another is our tone of voice, how our voice actually sounds 652 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,720 when we're talking. It's a big part of our 653 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:35,760 communication that another big part of our communication, what 654 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:37,840 what we sound like when we're talking. 655 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,960 And then the third part, another major part of our communication 656 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,840 is the words that we use, you know, the actual, the actual 657 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:52,240 words we're using, the things we're saying now, it'd be 658 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:57,480 interesting to know what you think are the, you know, which, 659 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,640 which bit of communication goes with which segment of the, of 660 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,560 the pie chart. So which, which one of those 661 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,640 three non verbal tone of voice, the words we use, which one of 662 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,960 those counts for 55% of our communication, which counts for 663 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,000 38%, which counts for 7%. You can pause it, have a moment 664 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,360 to think if you like, little little quiz, little test, if you 665 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,640 like. But this often surprises people. 666 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:26,840 It's what we do a lot in sessions. 667 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,520 And you know, if we were sitting here having a session together, 668 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,120 I'd, I'd wait and hear your response, but I can't do that 669 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,720 here. So I'm just going to tell you. 670 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:42,280 So quite surprisingly for some people, 55% of our communication 671 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,360 is our non verbal communication, our body language, the, the 672 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,080 signals we're giving off in terms of, you know, what our 673 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,440 faces are doing, how we're holding ourselves, all of those, 674 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,360 all those visual cues, that's 55% of our communication. 675 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,360 This, this is as well when we're, you know, face to face 676 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,440 with someone, when we're in the same physical space, we're not 677 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,920 talking about communication over text or emails or phones, 678 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,080 obviously. Now, the next biggest part of 679 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,480 our communication is our tone of voice. 680 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,920 So 38% of our tone, I'm sorry, 38% of our communication is our 681 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,360 tone of voice. Again, surprises a lot of people 682 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:34,560 how we're saying something that is an awful lot, which leaves us 683 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,840 with 7% of our communication being the actual words we're 684 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,800 using, which isn't that much. But what we often find is that 685 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,440 that's the bit that everyone focuses on. 686 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,080 That's the bit that we're really putting all our effort and all 687 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,480 our thought into. You know, we're really focusing 688 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,080 on saying what it is we need to say. 689 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,240 And we're, we're, you know, we're trying to get our point 690 00:38:56,240 --> 00:39:00,280 across and we're, we often use a lot of a lot of words, a lot of 691 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,960 communication in, in terms of the actual words we're saying. 692 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,640 That's where we, we put our energy. 693 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:14,960 Now this can, you know, maybe give a bit of a, an example 694 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,400 here, but it may be that you shout upstairs to your child, 695 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,560 dinner's on the table right now. You don't mean it to sound 696 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,400 aggressive. You're not being horrible. 697 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:26,920 You're just letting them know dinner's on the table. 698 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,760 But it's simply the act of shouting may trigger an 699 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,120 emotional response in that child. 700 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,800 You know, it may be that you're saying something quite kind, but 701 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,800 you're, you know, you're, you're kind of, you're not looking 702 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,120 particularly friendly. You're scowling. 703 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,640 And I know things have been really tough for you. 704 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,080 I get that. And you look angry. 705 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,720 And I don't know, often I hear from from parents and they say, 706 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:57,840 my child always says you're shouting at me. 707 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,400 And they're like, I'm not shouting, I'm just talking. 708 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,480 But other bits of the communication are more 709 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,800 important. They're picking up on on non 710 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,200 verbal cues they're picking up on. 711 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,240 You know the tone of voice and they perceive it as shouting 712 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,920 even though your voice is quiet. You're not raising your voice, 713 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,960 but the child will perceive it as as shouting because they're 714 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,040 picking up on all these other bits of the communication other 715 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,200 than simply the words you're saying. 716 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:29,320 So I guess the the point here being address the bits that 717 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,360 you're really focusing on. Are you giving loads of 718 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,360 attention to the words you're saying and ignoring the, the 719 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,120 more important parts of the communication, which is how 720 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,720 you're saying it? You know, what's your body 721 00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:42,000 language saying? What's your tone of voice? 722 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,000 So these are more important. So, and it's like, you know, if 723 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000 you've ever met someone that you really don't trust and something 724 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,440 just feels really off about and there's nothing in nothing they 725 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,000 say to you, you know, all sounds fine, but something just isn't 726 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,480 right with this person. You don't, it doesn't feel good. 727 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,440 You're picking up on the cues from their body language and 728 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,400 their tone of voice. And most times we, we listen 729 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,520 more to those bits of communication than the words 730 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,000 someone's saying. Or sometimes we kick ourselves. 731 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,680 We go, I knew I shouldn't have trusted that person. 732 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,200 We go against our instinct and we regret it sometimes later. 733 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,560 And that, you know, it's just, it just goes to show that the 734 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:32,800 things that we really feel that really matter are those, you 735 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,520 know, those, those bits of body language and, and the tone of 736 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,400 voice, those aspects of our communication. 737 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,800 Now, also, I'm going to link this to three faces again. 738 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,720 And going back to that, that what we talked about in that 739 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:53,440 podcast in that when we talked about that the three faces, if 740 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,120 you think your child is probably a child is using this behaviour, 741 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,280 it's likely that they are quite often their line is quite high. 742 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,800 They are probably quite close to dysregulation. 743 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,120 Quite often. They're showing that they aren't 744 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,840 able to regulate their emotions by their behaviour. 745 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,640 They, they, they can't do it really. 746 00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:13,520 And so that line's going to be quite high for them. 747 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,640 They're close to, you know, that line's getting close to the top 748 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,280 for them. So they have limited thinking 749 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:26,800 brain available. And now what happens is if we, 750 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,360 if we focus a lot of our communication on talking and on 751 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,200 the, on the words we're using, we're asking their thinking 752 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,320 brain to do more work. And that thinking brain needs to 753 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,960 be given space in order just to regulate the emotions. 754 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,040 So rather than focusing so much of our energy on the words we're 755 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,920 saying, if we just went, you know what, I'm not going to use 756 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,320 so many words. I'm going to focus much more on 757 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,720 the way I'm saying this and my tone of voice. 758 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,440 How can I communicate calm here? How can I communicate care? 759 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,400 How can I communicate safety? Because a lot of this comes back 760 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,840 to feelings of safety, feelings of security. 761 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,680 Then we we often find that we get better results. 762 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:15,280 So I guess, you know, if you can think about your communication a 763 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,120 little bit more. Again, same with the drama 764 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,160 triangle. Bringing an awareness to this 765 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:26,120 is, and you know a big part of it, being aware of, of your, 766 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,360 your tone of voice, being aware of, you know, how am I holding 767 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,760 myself? What are my hands doing? 768 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,320 What's my facial expression doing? 769 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,400 How close am I standing? How loud is my all these things, 770 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,240 how quickly am I speaking? The more awareness you can bring 771 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:44,760 to it, the more you can influence yourself, the more 772 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,200 control you have, the more you can make choices in terms of how 773 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,920 you want to use these things, which are going to be more 774 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,120 useful again to making sure you can de escalate situations and 775 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,480 keep things safer. And the more you can de escalate 776 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,160 and the safer you can keep things, the the more you can 777 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,920 normalise not being in that place of conflict. 778 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,840 And the more you normalise that, the more everyone in the family 779 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,000 expects to be more in that place of cooperation rather than in 780 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,200 conflict. And that in turn can start to 781 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,920 change the narrative around what we do in our relationship. 782 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,840 So rather than someone always being ready to, I'm ready to 783 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,640 fight because I know we always fight. 784 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,200 If you can be the person that that manages things, that 785 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,120 creates an environment where it's easy for people to stay 786 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,480 regulated, you start expecting that more. 787 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,000 And that's a really important, you know, part of all of this as 788 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,520 well. Anyway. 789 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,680 So that's the the drama triangle and the communication pie. 790 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,880 Hope there's some useful stuff in there. 791 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,360 Yeah, keep them in mind. You might want to with both of 792 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,640 these, you might want to draw these out, put them up on the 793 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,720 fridge, put them up, you know, inside of a kitchen cabinet, put 794 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:01,800 them up on the wall in your bedroom, whatever someone where 795 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,120 you're going to see them because you probably will forget about 796 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,120 it. And, you know, it's good to 797 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,120 remind yourself equally, put it up somewhere in your home where 798 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,840 your child may see it, they may go, what's that? 799 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,200 And you say, you know, I was, I was learning about this thing. 800 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,840 I heard about this thing. Have a conversation about it. 801 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,360 You know, this, this is stuff that relates to all of us. 802 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,600 This is human stuff. This isn't right because you're 803 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,000 a bad child or because you know, you can't control it. 804 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,040 No, this is This Is Us. This is what happens with 805 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,520 humans. This is this is being human, 806 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,440 essentially. You can have that conversation, 807 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:43,240 maybe see how it goes. Only do that, obviously, if you 808 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:48,040 feel like it's safe to do so. But you know, you know your 809 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,760 family better than anyone. So see if you think that that 810 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,960 could be worthwhile. Right. 811 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,640 I'm going to leave it there. That's a long one. 812 00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:58,480 Yeah. Like I said, hopefully some 813 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,680 useful stuff in there. We'll see you next time. 814 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:02,760 All right. Thank you.