1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160 Someone asked me if you had a button, so if you could turn off 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,240 your bipolar, would you use it? I said only if I could turn on 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,360 again because there's a bit of bipolar. 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,440 Fantastic. Do you have a sense of how 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,240 you've influenced only? Since when I came out of the 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:21,920 hospital for bipolar and I realized that I did change the 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,320 world of cooking, but I didn't. I didn't realize I was doing it. 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Had I known how hard it was going to be before I did it, 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,120 would I have done it? I don't, I don't know. 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,280 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,120 I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and this is the podcast where we 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,640 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,200 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,720 My guest today is Heston Blumenthal, one of the world's 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,280 most influential chefs, known for combining cooking with 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,640 science to transform the modern dining experience. 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,080 The self-taught chef rose to international fame with The Fat 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,200 Duck, his experimental restaurant in Berkshire that 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,280 went on to earn 3 Michelin stars and was named number one on the 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,440 planet in 2005 by the World's Fifty Best Restaurants. 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Renowned for imaginative dishes like snail porridge and bacon 22 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,840 and egg ice cream, Heston has built a reputation for pushing 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,880 culinary boundaries, exploring how memory, psychology and the 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,520 senses shape the way we taste food. 25 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,200 He has also spoken about his own mental health. 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,240 In 2017 he was diagnosed with ADHD and in 2023 with bipolar 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,080 disorder. After being sectioned and 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,600 spending two months in hospital, he's now an ambassador for the 29 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,400 charity Bipolar UK. Heston Welcome. 30 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,440 Thank you. If you could change the world in 31 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,040 any way, how would you change it? 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:55,480 Well, one way would be I I think that everyone on this planet 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,120 should have access to free drinking water, clean drinking 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,640 water, because the same amount of water exists now as it always 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,800 has done on on our planet. It's just the distribution has 36 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:13,080 changed because of water companies selling selling water 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,160 and to give water back. One of the ways I thought of of 38 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:23,200 doing this was eating mindfully. So the more a mouthful of food 39 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:29,760 you can value, you eat slower and you get more enjoyment out 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,160 of food. So that means less food is 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,600 produced and that means there's less water is produced, and that 42 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,000 water can then be used to feed the world, so to speak. 43 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:48,680 So eating mindfully is is quite difficult to get your head 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,520 around sometimes, yes. What is it? 45 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:57,840 Well, it's being aware of what the food looks like, what it 46 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,200 smells like, what your expectation is when you put it 47 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,000 in your mouth. Maybe there's a story behind 48 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,280 where the food comes from that you you can make the story up. 49 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:10,800 Really, the classic 1 is a mindful Raisin super one Raisin. 50 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:12,200 I've done that. Have you done it? 51 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,440 Yeah. And one Raisin then feels like 52 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,080 instead of eating a whole handful of raisins in one go, 53 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,840 you savor 1. For 10 minutes. 54 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,840 Have you done the taste changes as you do it? 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,360 Yeah. It changes while you, while 56 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,880 you're, while you're, while you're chewing. 57 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,680 The texture changes and you discover more about yourself in 58 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,920 the process. But it's a hard thing to do to, 59 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,360 to, to ask people to eat mindfully all the time. 60 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,480 I mean I I forget it sometimes it. 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,080 Is really difficult. I mean, it's really interesting 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,280 you bring this up straight away because I, I went on one of 63 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:51,160 these, you know, healthy, healthy eating retreats where 64 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,520 they taught us about eating slowly and savouring your food 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,520 and how much more enjoyment you get out of it. 66 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,080 You do it for a bit and then, you know, I just had lunch and I 67 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,000 bolted it again. You very, very quickly get back. 68 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,080 I eat really, really quickly. And I don't really know why, 69 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,800 because when you are, when you do actually do the expert and 70 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,120 I've done that Raisin thing where, where it, it totally 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,480 changes its intensity as you eat it and, and you come away 72 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,320 thinking, yes, I should definitely do this with all my 73 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,440 food. Yes, but it's not as simple as 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,280 that. No, I, I forget quite a lot and 75 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:28,600 I realized after I bolted it down, I realized I bolted it 76 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:34,600 down and it's almost, if you need an alarm clock to trigger 77 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,920 before you start eating, but it, it doesn't, it does make a 78 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,080 difference. Like I, I suppose I when you 79 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,520 mentioned about my, my bipolar, when I came out of hospital, I 80 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:52,920 was on the medication, I put on a lot of weight and down to the, 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,680 the meds I was taking, which is quite common. 82 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,600 Apparently I've started to lose it, which is good. 83 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:04,080 But I've that's when that's when I applied mindful eating more 84 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,600 more than I've done before. And and have you? 85 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,560 I don't hope you don't mind me asking. 86 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,720 I mean, have you, are you using the jabs to lose weight? 87 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:13,240 Yeah. Are you? 88 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:19,760 Using the jabs which also help, but I realise that they could be 89 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,520 very damaging to the restaurant business. 90 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,720 Yes. Well, I mean, you, you've got a 91 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,840 sort of a mindful menu. Yes, the fat dark, yes. 92 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,400 What you know, what do you think that really works? 93 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,320 Because isn't the whole point of the jabs that it stops you 94 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:41,240 wanting to eat? You eat less and I think it 95 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,160 affects different people in different ways. 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,640 Has it taken away your enjoyment of food? 97 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,080 That's what a lot of people fear. 98 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,400 No, I pick less. I mean, chefs are classic 99 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,240 pickers. It's because they're used to 100 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:58,240 working on their feet. So you just rather than sitting 101 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,120 down and eating or pick. So it it it stops? 102 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,680 Well from my experience it stops me picking. 103 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:13,240 But you still eat a full meal. Less, less so now, but for a 104 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,480 four meal at home and a four meal out. 105 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:22,680 The trouble is if you go out, sometimes very lovely people in 106 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:28,920 the restaurant send out extra food and I I feel a sort of 107 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,920 guilty to it because I don't want to offend them. 108 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,480 But you don't want to. If I don't, I don't. 109 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,920 Want to? But I mean, so much of your food 110 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,160 experience is about all the senses and all the feelings that 111 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,240 you get with food. Do you still have all of that if 112 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,080 you are on weight loss drugs? Yes, still have a sense of 113 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,160 smell, sense of taste, sense of sight, sense of sound. 114 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,360 And pleasure and enjoyment I. Prefer if I can share. 115 00:06:55,840 --> 00:07:01,040 So my wife and I will often share a starter so there's less 116 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:02,280 food on the plate. Yeah. 117 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:06,400 And then I can enjoy it more. And, and how are you? 118 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,880 I mean, you know, you've been very frank and open about what 119 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,200 happened a couple of years ago. You know you you effectively had 120 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,440 a breakdown with sections. Yes. 121 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,040 How are you now? A lot karma. 122 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:29,080 I made a documentary for the BBC, My Bipolar and they showed 123 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:37,040 me a clip of ABBC program BBC Click and the presenter asked me 124 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,960 a question, how are you? And I gave him 45 minutes of 125 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,880 diatribe. Basically 45 minutes of how we 126 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,040 learned to speak, how our ability to to control our vocal 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,080 cords was influenced heavily by cooking. 128 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,880 When you look back at faster than you were. 129 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,000 Yes, that that that clip. Yes, you click. 130 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:00,000 What do you think? Oh. 131 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,600 My God, one. I couldn't believe I thought 132 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,760 that quickly. I got so much information in my 133 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:14,600 body movements, everything was chaotic, chaotic. 134 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,040 But what I was saying I still meant. 135 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,160 It's just the rate I was saying it. 136 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:29,480 How how how linked to you know What you now know is ADHD and 137 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:30,880 bipolar. Yes. 138 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:37,600 Disorder was all of that to the brilliance of your creativity? 139 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,360 I think because I've thought about this before, I think it's 140 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,440 a mixture of things. It's a mixture of bipolar, ADHD. 141 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:53,640 Also, I was in a tiny kitchen, which made me look more the 142 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,240 science of cooking, how I could, how I could control the 143 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,760 precision and the consistency of things in such a small space. 144 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,120 I was working 20 hours a day so I was exhausted. 145 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:10,480 I think all of these things together have have made a 146 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,080 difference, but I don't know if you look at particularly ADHD 147 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:20,080 and bipolar. I do remember once licing A 148 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,840 blowtorch, going to lighter blowtorch to caramelize the 149 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,480 lemon tarts. So lemon tart, sprinkle sugar on 150 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,840 the top. You like the blowtorch and you 151 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,880 caramelize the sugar. So I sprinkled the sugar on the 152 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,160 top and then I went to to get the blowtorch. 153 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,000 I turned the gas on and I went to the tap, the sink, and I 154 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,920 turned on the hot tap. And I remember thinking, I can't 155 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,240 possibly like the blowtorch with cold water, has to be hot water. 156 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,920 And then realized what was I doing? 157 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,040 It's like a proper Alice in Wonderland moment. 158 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,520 Brain was scrambled. Yeah, scrambled so. 159 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,720 So, but what I mean is like, do you, do you think your brain had 160 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:03,360 to be running at 110 miles an hour for you to think about the 161 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,160 things that you thought about as a chef? 162 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,040 Yes, I think so. So, so, so, so, so there's a 163 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,880 positivity. To it definitely. 164 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,000 Your life has benefited hugely from that neurodiversity. 165 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,920 Yes. Someone asked me if you had a 166 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,400 button that you can turn on and turn off. 167 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,880 So if you could turn off your bipolar, would you use it? 168 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,000 I said, oh, if I could turn on again, because there's a bits, 169 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,080 bits of bipolar fantastic. And other bits are dangerous to, 170 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,760 to to me and they can be to people around me. 171 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,320 And the other side of it is, is also dangerous to when you get 172 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:50,640 through big depressive phases. But the middle bit is fantastic. 173 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Did did you always have the, you know, the classic shape of 174 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,960 bipolar, which is manic periods and depressive periods? 175 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,120 Because obviously you've had a very high public profile. 176 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,160 Yes. And you've been on TV and you 177 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,720 know, no one would have known if you were in some sort of 178 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,560 depressive trauma. No, well, I, I wasn't aware. 179 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,000 It's only now looking back over the years, I can see I had, I 180 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:27,560 had this more and more examples of symptoms of bipolar when I 181 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:37,360 looked back over the years, remember I just, I had the 182 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,680 depressive periods of time when I looked back at them, but I 183 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:45,080 didn't, I didn't look back at them as being depressive before 184 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,640 I was hospitalized. And it might be because because 185 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,480 I've changed my, my, I speak slower. 186 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:04,480 I can sit longer in silence. It's given me more time to 187 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,440 contemplate. And that contemplation has led 188 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:14,040 me to realize there were I had depressive periods when I when I 189 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,640 was a teenager, late, late teens, let's say. 190 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,760 So you weren't actively covering it up, It's just because you you 191 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,000 weren't aware of it. I was. 192 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,840 I wasn't aware of it. Can we go back then to sort of 193 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:37,560 early days, You know what, what, what do you remember about that 194 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:41,080 first, sort of first of knowledge, First for knowledge 195 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,000 around cookery, wanting to learn, wanting to create. 196 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,920 We used to go as a family. We used to go to Cornwall for 197 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:56,560 summer holidays and one year my dad, his company made, made a 198 00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,640 bit of money and we'll go abroad. 199 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:05,400 So my sister and myself, my parents went to France and he'd 200 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,240 read about this three Mission Star restaurant. 201 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,640 They, they'd never been to 1 Mission Star restaurant and then 202 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,080 alone 3. And of course my sister and I 203 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,160 didn't even know what it what that meant. 204 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:21,280 So I had this experience in this restaurant in Provence which 205 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,680 sent me down the rabbit hole with inquisitiveness regarding 206 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:28,000 food. And I remember sitting outside, 207 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,320 there was the noise, soft noise of the crunching gravel under 208 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,760 the feet of the waiters, intoxicating smell of lavender, 209 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,480 the sound of the crickets. There's a cheese trolling the 210 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,520 size of a chariot, wine lists like a size of a billboard. 211 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,800 They're pouring sauces into souffles, carving legs and lamb 212 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,840 at the table. And that's it. 213 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,400 I was hooked. So how did you decide to pursue 214 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,840 it? Well, after then, so I was about 215 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,480 18, then 17, something like that. 216 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:11,560 And I bought a couple of French cookbooks, The Great Chefs of 217 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:13,440 France, but I couldn't speak French. 218 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,040 So I translated the word word for word with the French English 219 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,200 Dictionary. And then I started cooking out 220 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,520 of them. And every year I'd go to France 221 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:29,400 and I'd save up, save up money and blow it on say 3 222 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:35,960 restaurants, 6 months of saving. And then I'd have more books and 223 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,960 I would do more cooking. And I would take one dish like a 224 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,440 vanilla ice cream and have in my mind the most enjoyable vanilla 225 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,160 ice cream I've eaten in one of these restaurants and try and 226 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:51,880 replicate it. And at the same time, there was 227 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,640 a book out by an American guy called Harold McGee, which is 228 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,360 about the food and cooking science and all the kitchen. 229 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,240 So I bought that. And in that book he said 230 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,680 Browning meat doesn't keep in the juices, which flew in the 231 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,480 face of everything. I've every chef that I'd heard 232 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,360 speak or write down you seal the meat, but you can't seal the 233 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,720 juices in because when you put a steak in a hot pan, it's 234 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,560 sizzles, there's water coming out and a well done piece of 235 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,840 steak shrinks the water's come out. 236 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,280 So once I had I, I read that it's a bit like finding out 237 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,080 father criticism real. I absolutely thought, oh God, if 238 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,600 this isn't true, how many other things that I've read aren't 239 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,200 true? And that's where I've got my my 240 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,480 sort of life motto from, which has questioned everything. 241 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,840 And, and why didn't you decide to go to, you know, down the 242 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:51,080 normal route of, of either, you know, formal cookery school or 243 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,040 going to, you know, work for, you know, the sort of the list 244 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,200 of restaurants that chefs normally do? 245 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:08,720 I did one week at the memoir with Raymond Blanc and decided 246 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,360 that what I wanted to do was make money 1st and then and then 247 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,000 then get myself a restaurant. But as the years went by, I did 248 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:22,000 various jobs from from selling photocopies to a working for my 249 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,440 old man on on accounts basic bookkeeping. 250 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,720 And then it became evident that I wasn't driven by money. 251 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,280 So rather than having the restaurant that I could imagine 252 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,600 I wanted and looked for, we sold our cottage, moved in with my 253 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,560 parents and started looking for a site and found this old 254 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:52,120 rundown pub in Bray, borrowed some money from Old Man and then 255 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,760 got a mortgage from the bank. My friends helped me do the, do 256 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,520 the, the, the, the refit of, you know, painting the walls and 257 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:06,400 just polishing up the floor. And then that was it. 258 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,880 In fact, that was open in 1995. And. 259 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,119 Why did you feel you didn't need to learn from the greats? 260 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,720 Was it, you know, were you already convinced by that stage 261 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,160 that you wanted to do something different? 262 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,599 Yes, but I still learnt. I learnt from the greats, from 263 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:33,360 their cookbooks and going and eating in their restaurants and 264 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,960 I think that was a really big thing for me, being able to go 265 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:42,000 and eat and observe and then you and then then read the book. 266 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,200 How do you feel about the sort of the elitism around food? 267 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,440 I mean, you know, you say you have to save up six months to go 268 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,520 to three great restaurants. Yes, In France, you know, top 269 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,200 restaurants are the preserve of people with money to burn these 270 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,480 days. You know, you're talking 2, 271 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,560 three, £400 a head. Yes, in a lot of places. 272 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,280 I mean, it's just kind of absurd money. 273 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,400 Is it, is it necessary? Is it worth it? 274 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,160 And is it? Is it right? 275 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,400 Well, firstly, it depends on the restaurant. 276 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,880 Is it right the cost of producing. 277 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:28,000 So it's like, let's say the Fat Duck, we do 4036 to 40 covers 278 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:36,560 customers and we have a team of 70 to serve those people. 279 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,360 So if you Add all of that up, plus the food costs, it's 280 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:42,680 expensive. Yes, it is. 281 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,000 And it's it's not somewhere that you'd go to once a week or once 282 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,200 a month at all. But however you've had something 283 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,360 handmade for you completely, and hopefully it'll be lasting, 284 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,760 lasting in your memory for a long time. 285 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,840 It's sort of a lifetime experience for some people. 286 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,320 Yes, yes. And we, we get, we get the 287 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,800 surprising amount of younger people coming in that, that that 288 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,920 must save up as well. Yes, I mean, it was a thing. 289 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,560 I mean, I went on my wedding anniversary. 290 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,360 Did you? And, and it, you know, it was a 291 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,200 great experience, but it's one of those things where it's sort 292 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,000 of it's an experience for for a one off, you know, for life. 293 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,400 Yes, it's not. It's not meant to be, as I said, 294 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,560 a weekly and. And but I mean, obviously it's 295 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,680 out of, it's out of reach for most people, isn't it? 296 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,680 You know, do you, do you think, do you think that's right? 297 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,160 Is it? Is it, you know, do you, do you 298 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,080 think it's possible to bring some of what you do and create 299 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,440 to the masses if you like? Well, we've got next door to, 300 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,760 we've got the Heinz Heads, the pub, the pub which has a 301 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:57,560 Michelin star and there's, there's snippets of the Fat Duck 302 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,760 in there just so you can get a little, just a little taste. 303 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,760 But the sheer cost of producing the the food and the dishes that 304 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,480 we produce in the dark, you can't. 305 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,240 You can't replicate that without unless unless you get a little 306 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,680 robots, which I still don't think would do the job. 307 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,320 And how, how much is the sort of the raw material and how much is 308 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,520 the, is the is the people cost? Because obviously raw materials 309 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:25,560 are going up as well, aren't they? 310 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,480 I mean, food costs are going up and they will going up this 311 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,640 year. Massively you're looking at, 312 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:37,000 you're looking at probably people cost being the is the 313 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,480 biggest by far the the the biggest expenditure. 314 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,440 And do do you feel now, particularly now that you're on, 315 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,080 you know, you're on the medication, do do you feel like 316 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,440 you're as creative or has it changed you that much? 317 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,640 I still have my creativity. Before, I was interrupting 318 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,000 myself with ideas, which wasn't necessarily that beneficial 319 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,040 because things wouldn't get done. 320 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,400 Well, because there was so much going on in your head. 321 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,440 So much going on in my head, yeah. 322 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:17,400 If you think back, sort of, you know the bacon and egg ice 323 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,080 cream, then you know what? What was the story behind that 324 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,560 creation and how long it took? OK, right. 325 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,040 You ready for this? We'll give you the truncated 326 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,120 version. OK, first take. 327 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:39,440 Imagine making a cup of coffee with one coffee bean and a cup 328 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,840 of water. It'd be, but you grind the 329 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,480 coffee bean, cup of water, drink it, it'll be insipid. 330 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,120 If you have the cup of water, drink it, but take the coffee 331 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,000 bean and crunch the coffee bean. You're going to get a much 332 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,680 bigger explosion of coffee than you would do if the coffee bean 333 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,680 was ground. So that I called flavour 334 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,800 encapsulation. So you get little globules or 335 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,160 little pellets of flavour that burst. 336 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:15,360 So bank, bank that to one side. I was looking at making vanilla 337 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:20,880 ice cream where I found ice creams to be eggy quite often 338 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,680 and I didn't want that eggy taste in ice creams. 339 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,360 So I looked at what was happening and you in in 340 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,800 traditional cuisine, you're told to cook the custard until it 341 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,960 coats to the back of a spoon and you draw your finger across it. 342 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,560 But that's 80 something degrees. And egg yolks coagulate at 70. 343 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,440 So you have overcooking the egg yolks, which means the egg, the 344 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,880 egg egg yolk proteins form clumps, though you can't really 345 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,760 see them. So you get bursts of egg. 346 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,680 And that's why it takes egg. So we reduce the temperature of 347 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,560 the ice cream, cooking the ice cream. 348 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,120 So lost the egg in this. Then I thought what happens if I 349 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,520 scramble eggs, puree them and make a custard. 350 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,840 So I make a custard with scrambled eggs and it tasted so 351 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,680 eggy. It reminded me of breakfast. 352 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,280 So that was that was basically where the where the egg and 353 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,680 bacon and then bacon follows naturally. 354 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,680 And how long did that whole process take? 355 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,440 Couple of years. And that's quite the norm for 356 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:32,920 for a lot of your ideas, isn't it? 357 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:38,160 A couple of years, yeah. So what's now that everything 358 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,320 has slowed down for you now, you know, how long is a Heston idea 359 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,320 going to take? Is it going to take longer or is 360 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:53,400 it the same amount? Maybe even longer at the moment. 361 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,800 I mean, I'm fascinated by that microbiome. 362 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,600 So what the effects that the food has on on our our 363 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,240 well-being. And I'd say that I'm in the 364 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,120 business of emotion. I just happen to use food 365 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:16,560 cooking as a, as a mechanism or medium for that and triggering 366 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,320 memory, nostalgia, things like that, playfulness, maybe 367 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,880 adventure, discovery, those, those sorts of emotions. 368 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,400 There's lots of research been done on what we eat, how it 369 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,040 affects our microbes and how the microbes then affect effects our 370 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,800 mood and the effect they can have on things like bipolar. 371 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,360 But also works the other way. Your, your emotional statement 372 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,600 you eat has an effect on your microbiome, which also effects, 373 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,920 effects your mood in turn. So if you eat when you're angry, 374 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,800 you eat when you're sad, you eat when you're happy, it has a 375 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,680 different, completely different effect. 376 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,560 So I'm looking looking at that. That's going to give a whole new 377 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,640 meaning just to the idea of a Wellness menu, isn't it? 378 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,960 Yes, but it might take some time. 379 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,080 But I feel it, it feels like we don't, we're just beginning to 380 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,880 understand what you're talking about, that actually the guts 381 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,840 affects your physical and mental wealth, you know, well-being, 382 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,160 yes. You know, when we, you know, 383 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,000 people started taking, you know? Enemas. 384 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:29,880 Well, no capsules full of bacteria to try and make 385 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,000 themselves feel better. And it quite often works, I 386 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,760 think. Yeah, but but we don't really 387 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,800 know why or how to control it. You know, it's a very 388 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,240 uncontrolled experience. You just pop a pill and hope. 389 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,440 Yeah, there's, there's more. There's more bacteria in our 390 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,120 guts than planets in the universe. 391 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,280 And do you think you could like start to identify what makes 392 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,200 what? What influences different 393 00:25:54,200 --> 00:26:00,360 emotions or feelings? Not yet, not yet, but it will 394 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,520 happen. And is that your aim or or or is 395 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,720 that? I'd like to be part of it. 396 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,280 Is that beyond beyond cookery and is more science? 397 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,760 That's it's more, it's more science, but I think it's the 398 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,160 convergence of the two things that interest me. 399 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,440 What do you feel about things like mushrooms and psilocybin? 400 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,440 There's been a lot of research recently on micro dosing and the 401 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,640 impact on mental health in particular a lot. 402 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:28,760 Is that something you're interested in? 403 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,680 I am. I've read, I've read a bit about 404 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:39,640 it, I've seen some Ted talks on on it and it's meant to help 405 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,000 with a lot of things, I think depression and stuff like that. 406 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,440 Anxiety, OCD, all of those sorts. 407 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,640 All of those sorts of things, yeah. 408 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,640 I mean, you've done a lot of the science by yourself. 409 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Doesn't seem like we have a infrastructure that that 410 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,080 actually brings together the thing that we all do a huge 411 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,720 amount of which is eat and the science around what it's doing 412 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,480 to us. That seems like a massive sort 413 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,400 of gap. It is in fact the TV stuff that 414 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,600 I've done. Most of it has given me access 415 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,720 to research centres and been able to tap into. 416 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:25,040 For example, we did a program on chili con carne for the BBC 417 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,480 years ago and wanted to know why. 418 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,200 Why is chili addictive? We put my my head chef at the 419 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,720 time I couldn't, I couldn't go in the machine's MRI scanner 420 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,600 because I just had a back operation with the Met. 421 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,720 The metal hadn't embedded in to my back. 422 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,160 Yeah. And he volunteered to go in the 423 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:59,520 scanner and we drip fed him to the oil and scanned brain 424 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,960 scanned him. And what happened was the part 425 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,880 of the brain that controls pain got lit up, and then when the 426 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,160 chilli hit went down, the part of the brain that controls 427 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,080 pleasure that lit up. So everyone has their own chilly 428 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,200 thresholds. It's when it comes down below 429 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,680 the when the pain is bearable, your body releases a lot of 430 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,200 endorphins. So you get this, this rush, this 431 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:35,480 hit of pleasure. So that's to get access to an 432 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,880 MRI scanner. To be able to do that experiment 433 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,120 without the television program would have been very difficult. 434 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,920 I mean, there are other people now doing what you've done. 435 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,400 I mean, you've kind of changed the way people think about Food 436 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,920 Research in in many ways. I mean, are you aware of who, 437 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,520 who is doing the most exciting work? 438 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,120 Who's kind of taking on? No, not yet. 439 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,960 And, and how and how much do you want to do now? 440 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,040 You know, has your life changed dramatically in terms of your 441 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:11,360 sense of ambition and drive, or would you still feel like you've 442 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,800 got a lot to do? I feel like I've got a lot to 443 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,840 do, but I don't know yet which direction to go in. 444 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:27,600 So on the the research side, with anything sensorial, so 445 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:35,760 multi multi sensory, you know how, how what you see can affect 446 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,120 what you taste, what you hear can affect what you taste and 447 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880 how the senses influence each other, which I think is 448 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,080 fascinating. I like, I see myself as a 449 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,640 walking experiment. So the idea that how do I feel 450 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,200 when this is happening? Obviously I need to be aware in 451 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:00,200 order for that to work. Can you give me an example of of 452 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,840 of where that's triggers people? Yes, quite a few. 453 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:13,760 So for example, if you're drinking a cup of coffee with a 454 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:21,800 bit of milk or a glass of wine, you write the word coffee or 455 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,520 wine depending on the drink. Write it in balloon letters so 456 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,560 everything's rounded. There's no, there's no corners 457 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:34,920 or, or or sharp, sharp edges. Coffee and then write coffee on 458 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,120 another piece of paper in sharp, really sharp letters. 459 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:44,080 Do the same wine, the same hand, have a sip looking at the, the, 460 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,160 the, the coffee or the wine written in soft round balloon 461 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,880 like letters and then have another sip looking in sharp 462 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440 letters. And it tastes sharper when you 463 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,040 look at the sharp letters. It's it's a great experiment to 464 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,440 do you think you think? You can do it yourself. 465 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,640 You can do it yourself. And and so do you think you know 466 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,600 the ideal restaurant experience is visual, sound, smell? 467 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,800 Yes. A a completely curated 468 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,400 experience. Yes. 469 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,880 Is that the ideal one? I'm not sure if it's ideal, but 470 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,800 it is. It's a wonderful experience. 471 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:28,200 Does it exist? No, there's bits at the duck. 472 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,960 So the sound of the sea where you listen, you listen to the 473 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,480 waves lapping up against the shore. 474 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,480 Why you're eating something that looks like waves lapping up 475 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,320 against the shore. Who? 476 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,040 Who does that work with? Because some people, I'm sure, 477 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,640 sit down and they hear the sound of the waves and they say it 478 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,560 doesn't do anything for me, but other people will will be very 479 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,040 moved by it. Yeah. 480 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,840 Do you have any sense of why it affects some people and why not? 481 00:31:54,040 --> 00:32:03,520 Well, everyone's relationship with food is unique and sound 482 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,600 and smell are the biggest trigger of memory. 483 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,440 So most people have been to the sea in their lives and will have 484 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,440 a memory about it. If you have waves crashing, 485 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,160 crashing waves with a foghorn in the background, it's going to 486 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,560 It's going to trigger some memories for some people, not 487 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,400 others. But if it's just a generic waves 488 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,840 leaping up against the shore, most people will have a memory 489 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,600 about that and it will transport them back to the to their own 490 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,240 memory. And had you had you sort of 491 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,280 experimented with large groups of, you know, had you done a 492 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,560 sort of a clinical trial type thing so you know, before doing 493 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,840 that or was it just it worked for you? 494 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,840 I. Did some trials with Oxford 495 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:57,880 University, a guy called Charles Spence and we did. 496 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,360 We did the bacon and egg ice cream. 497 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,200 We've got two groups of people and one group, they were both 498 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,680 served the same bacon and egg ice cream, but one group 499 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,640 listened to chicken clucking and the other one listened to 500 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,440 sizzling bacon. And the group that listened to 501 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,160 sizzling bacon, the bacon flavour was higher. 502 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,320 The group that listened to the chicken clucking is the eggy 503 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,360 flavour was higher. That's amazing. 504 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,520 Which is is, yeah, quite, quite a strong effect as well. 505 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,520 And. And in terms of what you want to 506 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,600 do now as well, I mean, I mean, you said at the beginning of 507 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,720 your career you discovered you weren't, you weren't as driven 508 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,320 by money as you thought you might be. 509 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,440 You know, the business of restaurants is tough. 510 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,480 And, you know, and we, we've seen, you know, dinner, the 511 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,320 restaurants in central London is, is, is shutting down. 512 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,720 Yeah. Do you find the business side of 513 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,680 it, you know, engaging? Do you want to do that, or do 514 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,159 you really just want to cook? I want to cook and. 515 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,639 But what I mean is in terms of, you know, where does that leave 516 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,000 you as a, as a chef and as a, as a businessman? 517 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,400 You know it's it is difficult to do both, isn't it? 518 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:24,639 Yes it is. I've always run to take the the 519 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:29,440 duck if I've within reason, if I've if I've wanted or needed 520 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,239 something, buy it and then work out how to pay for it 521 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,560 afterwards. Which is not the way an 522 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,199 accountant would do it, but it has. 523 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:39,840 It's happened to have worked and. 524 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,000 What about in London? I mean, there was a story 525 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,280 recently in the Guardian about the shutting down of the 526 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,520 restaurant. I don't know how much of it is 527 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:53,800 true or not, but how, how difficult is it as a business to 528 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,520 keep things on the on the road and to keep people, you know, 529 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,160 famously chefs and it's a matter of drama and legend. 530 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,000 You know, it's an up and down business. 531 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,640 Tempers flare, people fall out. Does it have to be that way? 532 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:17,440 No, no it doesn't, and I'd like to think it's changed a lot in 533 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,960 kitchens over the last few years. 534 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,040 There's a lot less shouting and flaring up than there used to 535 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,680 be. Were you shouting in the 536 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:32,880 kitchen? No, no, no, I was exhausted and 537 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:42,640 not, but no, not shouting. And in the Mandarin, the article 538 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,480 in the Guardian wasn't correct. In the Mandarin, we decided that 539 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:54,200 our our term of we're a tenant in the property was basically 540 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,000 expired. So we've extended it for six 541 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,520 months and we've had a great relationship with the hotel. 542 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,040 We couldn't have actually had the success of the Mandarin 543 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,200 without that relationship. But do you want to do another 544 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,600 one like that? A big, glossy restaurant in 545 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,680 central London. I don't know yet. 546 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:18,080 We've got some some potential offers, but I'm I'm not sure. 547 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,160 Isn't it an exhausting thought? Every everyone I've ever met, 548 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,360 whoever run restaurants was sort of right on the edge all the 549 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,760 time. Is it? 550 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,680 Yes, it's exhausting. Doesn't sound very appealing. 551 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,520 What? What do you say to people who 552 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,720 who have the dream of doing that? 553 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:51,640 Well, I, I had a dream of doing it then when I opened the dock, 554 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:59,680 it was my first paid job as a chef and I had no idea it was 555 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,840 going to be so tough. This is where being self-taught 556 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,160 is a double edged sword because on the one hand I didn't, I was, 557 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,080 didn't have the, the, the confinements of the traditions 558 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,240 of classical French cooking, for example. 559 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,960 But on the other side of things in terms of organization skills, 560 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,560 the ordering and stuff like that, I didn't have a clue. 561 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,040 So that's why it took me, it took me longer than, you know, 562 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,000 chefs that have had training to be able to get, get it out to 563 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,840 speed, have it run in an organized fashion. 564 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:45,040 So had I have known how hard it was going to be before I did it, 565 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,600 would I have done it? I don't. 566 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:51,600 I don't know. I mean, it's easy to say sitting 567 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:57,600 here now and yes, I would have done, but it was horrendously 568 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,280 exhausting. But I mean it, it was an 569 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,480 enormous achievement as well, because the success of the Fat 570 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,800 Duck led to your public profile, led to TV, yes, led to the 571 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,600 spreading of this whole idea around science, led to loads of 572 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:15,360 people buying blowtorches and, and trying to do creative things 573 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,840 in their kitchens. That's a you know, do you have a 574 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:25,280 sense of how you've influenced? Only since my when I came out of 575 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,680 the hospital for bipolar, I had a chance to reflect. 576 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,080 And I realized I could say this now. 577 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,720 I could never have said it before because I thought about 578 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:44,520 it before that I did change the world of cooking from this 579 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,360 little, little contained kitchen in Bray. 580 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,720 But I didn't, I didn't realize I was doing it at all. 581 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,040 So in terms of to looking back as it's 30 years we've been 582 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:03,280 going, so having a everyone has a legacy, but having a legacy 583 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,800 that that that had that impact, has it been worth it? 584 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,200 Yes, I have to say yes. And how do how do you feel about 585 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,800 that legacy? I mean, is it, you know, is 586 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:18,600 pride something you feel or? I feel more proud now than I 587 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:26,160 have done before. That's very qualified, yes. 588 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,120 What's your ambition now at this stage in your life? 589 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:40,000 Do you think you can still have a big impact on the way we think 590 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,280 about food? Because what you're looking at 591 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,880 now is like it's, it's another big. 592 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,280 Term. Yeah, it's, it's a good question 593 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,920 because I didn't think, I never thought I'd have an impact. 594 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,880 And even when I even when I was sort of, yeah, those, those, 595 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,960 those periods of exhaustion years ago, I thought when I 596 00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:03,440 opened the, the dock, I thought maybe maybe one day I might, 597 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,560 might get a Michelin star. I had no idea about 3 stars. 598 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:17,480 So I sort of jumped in feet, feet and feet and hands 1st and 599 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,240 just cooked. And then once I started I was 600 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:28,600 stuck. I was stuck and had I have had a 601 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:36,040 choice that time to get out of the kitchen, I probably would 602 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,640 have done a bit more than a bit earlier than than than than my 603 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,720 levels of exhaustion, if that makes sense. 604 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,840 Yeah. I never thought that I would 605 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,040 have this effect on the world of food and cooking. 606 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,200 Having known that I've had an effect makes it more difficult 607 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:02,280 to have that as an ambition. Yeah, because you've already 608 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,240 done something really big. I've already done something 609 00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:05,520 quite big. Yeah, yeah. 610 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,320 I. Mean you're, you're also now 611 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,360 involved, you know, as you've said in in talking much more 612 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,560 about bipolar and you're involved with bipolar UK. 613 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,440 Do you have? Do you want to do big things 614 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,680 there or is that? I want, I definitely want to 615 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,720 help with the stigma, the people, the process of diagnosis 616 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,200 and the stigma that's surrounded by bipolar and the people that 617 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,920 live with people with bipolar because that's, that's something 618 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,080 that that people don't don't get. 619 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,800 I mean, one is understanding bipolar itself, but the loved 620 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:50,200 ones around that person, they all get affected and it takes up 621 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:55,280 to I think it's nine years for the for the NHS to get us a 622 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,720 diagnosis. At least once you've got a 623 00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:59,760 diagnosis, you can do something about it. 624 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,240 But it's multiple times more likely for people to end their 625 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:08,760 lives when they have bipolar and a mix of bipolar and ADHD. 626 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:15,800 So it's a big chunk of the population in Britain. 627 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:21,880 Some people find that you know that the person who has called 628 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,640 the police and the hospital, you know, done the sectioning, 629 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,480 signed the paperwork, you know that that relationship is very 630 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,120 difficult to mend. How how were you able to see it? 631 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,400 You know more as. Well, it was my your. 632 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,000 Wife saved your life? She, she saved my life and I, I 633 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,840 had no idea how bipolar never occurred to me. 634 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:52,000 And so when I she, she, we had this discussion not that long, 635 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:58,400 long ago, actually in her head when she thought I it's it needs 636 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,360 it needs sectioning, couldn't do something about this in her 637 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,520 head. She thought he might then speak 638 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:12,040 to me again. So that was a really big concern 639 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,120 fact when I, when I got diagnosis, I was surprised. 640 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,640 I was saying intrigued. Then I started reading about it 641 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,640 and, and it and it always sort of made sense. 642 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,400 And I don't know if it was getting worse as I was getting 643 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,960 older, I'm not sure. How? 644 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,000 How do you remove the stigma when you say that's what you 645 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,960 want to do? By talking about it, the 646 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,320 response we've got from the documentary that I made was 647 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,920 massive people with bipolar, people that live with people 648 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,800 with bipolar and you start to talk about it. 649 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,080 There's a lot of people that have bipolar or, or have a 650 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,960 relative with bipolar that don't want to talk about it. 651 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,960 So if you can start talking about it and, and some of the 652 00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:11,640 things that you know, in the manic stage, our toe can be 653 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,720 tokeningly funny. I mean embarrassingly so. 654 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,440 So you can share that with other people makes a difference. 655 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,840 So what? So what would your advice be to 656 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,600 people who might be friends, might be family, neighbors, 657 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,440 about how they should handle it without treating it as something 658 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,760 around which there's a stigma? Contact Bipolar UK because they 659 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,880 have a helpline that that that would be a start. 660 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,720 My sister was told she was bipolar but she she she refuted 661 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,400 it. She said no she didn't agree 662 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,560 with it. If my wife my wife hadn't have 663 00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:59,160 had me sectioned then I wouldn't be here today. 664 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,720 Because the the hospital told you you were. 665 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:06,480 Yeah, I was a couple of days away. 666 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,640 Days away from death, Yeah. And I suppose, I mean, do do you 667 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,920 think it's your sort of scientific brain that has helped 668 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,000 you? Embrace it if you like. 669 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:17,920 I think so. I think so. 670 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,400 I've done curiosity, curiosity. I think I've I've done a lot of 671 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:30,640 research and definitely the the medication has helped, although 672 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,920 at the beginning, but one, when I put on a lot, a lot of weight. 673 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,200 Secondly, my balance. I'm just going to get Vertigo. 674 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:45,000 My balance started to go, but then monthly visits to the 675 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,120 hospital to be checked up on and then the medication gets tweets 676 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,400 and tweets and tweets. So things they're getting better 677 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,200 and better. So do you feel yourself now? 678 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:01,760 Well, that's a good question because I don't know what myself 679 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:10,040 is. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm still me. 680 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,560 I'm just a less manic version of me, I'd say. 681 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,480 That's good. I think so, yes. 682 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,160 It's good. It's good. 683 00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:23,720 Aston Blumenthal, thank you very much indeed. 684 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:25,360 Thank you. Thank you for joining us. 685 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,960 You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News 686 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,240 YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.