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People have now got a 
relationship with their 

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computers, with their phones. 
Instead of relating to the 

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person in front of us, we relate
with the fantasy we have of that

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person in our heads. 
And I worry about that. 

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You talked about sort of social 
contagion. 

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People seem to want a diagnosis 
for things or a or a label to 

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give things. 
I don't think we are any better 

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since we've had this whole 
plethora of labels. 

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Talking about ADHD and what we 
call neurodiversity. 

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Social anxiety. 
We used to call it shy. 

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Hello and welcome to Ways to 
Change the World. 

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I'm Krishna Guru Murphy, and 
this is the podcast in which we 

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talk to extraordinary people 
about the big ideas in their 

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lives and the events that have 
helped shape them. 

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My guest today is a 
psychotherapist, broadcaster, 

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agony aunt and best selling 
author who helps people untangle

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their inner lives with wit and 
wisdom. 

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You may know Philippa Perry from
her bestseller The Book You Wish

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Your Parents Had Read, her TV 
appearances alongside her artist

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husband Grayson Perry, or from 
her widely read advice columns 

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where she explores everything 
from family dynamics and 

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emotional resilience to the ways
we connect, or fail to connect 

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rather, with the people closest 
to us. 

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Philippa, welcome. 
Thank you for having me. 

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If you could change the world, 
how would you change it? 

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That's a very big question. 
You know, when people write to 

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me on my column, they come with 
very specific questions like how

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can I get on with my 
mother-in-law better? 

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And sometimes I think that how 
we change the world is in this 

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these microscopic ways because 
if we are, say, kind and give 

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our mother-in-law the benefit of
the doubt, that will change the 

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world in a very tiny way, which 
might then have repercussions. 

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It might be a Pebble in the 
pond, but how to change the 

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world? 
That's a big one. 

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I mean, it's a bit like saying 
how do you change human nature 

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or how to change the planetary 
systems or? 

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Did you think we are getting 
better or worse at 

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relationships, as you know, as a
species, or is it that we talk 

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about the problems more or that 
we are actually getting? 

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Worse, we talk about problems 
more, and I think there's an 

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element of social contagion in 
that, in that people think, oh, 

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I've got that too. 
So I'm not sure whether talking 

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about it more is making it 
better. 

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Are we getting better or worse 
relationships? 

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I'd say some of us are getting 
better and a lot of us are 

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getting worse. 
And where we're getting worse is

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that people have now got a 
relationship with their 

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computers, with their phones, 
with their video games. 

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And I think sometimes it feels 
easier to have an evening in 

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with your screens playing 
Fortnite or whatever it is you 

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play. 
Then it is sort of going to an 

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event where you'll you'll go 
into a room and you may only 

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know two people and they're 
busy. 

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And I think people will do 
what's easiest. 

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And that can happen to anyone, 
can't it happen to? 

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Anyone. 
Yeah. 

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Of. 
Course, yeah, people will do 

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what's easiest. 
So it's easier maybe to do quasi

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socialising online than it is to
do real socialising. 

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And I worry about that because I
think we need to keep flexing 

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our social muscle in real life 
because as we found out in the 

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lockdowns, if we don't flex it, 
it atrophies and we become shyer

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and we become less tolerant of 
that awkwardness. 

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When you go into the room, you 
don't think you know anyone. 

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It took me a while to build up 
resilience again after lockdown.

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I was so looking forward to the 
first event, which I think was a

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book launch I was going to after
lockdown. 

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I was so looking forward to it. 
I thought I'm not going to drink

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because I want to remember every
little bit of it. 

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And I lasted 45 minutes. 
It was completely overwhelming. 

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I, I, I couldn't cope. 
I was so overstimulated after 45

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minutes I just had to go for a 
walk. 

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And it took me months until I 
was comfortable flexing my 

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social muscle again. 
And I, I know what that 

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experience was like for me. 
So imagine a young person who it

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was locked down, say, during 
their university years when they

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should have been really 
learning. 

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Yeah, and therefore doesn't 
really know what flexing 

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socialism. 
Is I knew at least I had a 

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groove I could get back into. 
But if you haven't formed that 

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groove and this makes me worry 
about some young people and 

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relationships, but all people 
actually, not just young people 

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because I think when we're face 
to face with someone, it's 

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harder to have a fantasy about 
them because what we tend to do 

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is instead of relating to the 
person in front of us, we relate

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with the fantasy we have of that
person in our heads and that 

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makes us go further apart. 
And if you talk about how do you

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change the world, well, perhaps 
we have a fantasy about our 

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enemies as well, rather than 
getting to know them. 

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And then we are fighting the 
demons in our heads and we're 

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thinking that there are enemy 
out there. 

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What sort of things should we do
then? 

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I mean, you know, if you, if you
are that young person who hasn't

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got a history of remembering 
what it was like to socialize 

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normally, if you like and and 
you're suddenly sort of your 

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post pandemic, you're locked in 
your phone and your devices and 

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00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,360
you're in an office, you know, 
what do you do? 

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You feel the fear and do it 
anyway. 

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You, you can't get over the 
awkwardness. 

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You can't get over how 
unpleasant it feels to feel 

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awkward, to feel that everybody 
else has got this except for 

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you. 
Because what we tend to do is we

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judge our inner world, how we 
feel inside ourselves by by 

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comparing it with people's 
external world. 

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So I go into a room and I see 
you looking very competent and 

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chatting like to a lot of 
people. 

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And I think, oh, Chris has 
really got this. 

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And I can't do that. 
But you know, for all I know 

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you're going, oh God, I don't 
know what to say. 

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You know as well. 
So do. 

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You think we should be forced to
speak to people rather than text

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them? 
I don't think we should be 

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forced. 
I have a daughter who, you know,

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who hates being on the phone and
she'd much rather text. 

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And I kind of go, no, no, no, 
you've got to speak. 

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I think if you speak, there's 
the if you, if you see somebody 

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face to face, there's less room 
for making assumptions that are 

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wrong. 
If you speak to someone on the 

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phone, there's more. 
You can't read somebody's face, 

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but you can hear their tone. 
So, you know, there's more, more

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chance of getting it wrong. 
And if you text, well, it's just

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practically a fantasy that 
you're having with the other 

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person because you can't read 
what they're saying. 

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I mean, how many 
misunderstandings have you had 

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with a text message? 
And e-mail same. 

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Thing. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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But that that's a very modern 
problem, isn't it? 

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Because people are communicating
much more by text than face to 

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face. 
I expect it is, yeah. 

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You talked about sort of social 
contagion and people, you know, 

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wanting or or saying I've got 
that too. 

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Yeah. 
I mean, you've, you've written 

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about this as well, haven't you,
That, that people kind of seem 

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to want a diagnosis for things 
or, or a label to give. 

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I don't think that many of the, 
oh, I've got to be so careful 

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what I say because people get 
very upset because their labels 

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are part of their identity. 
And I don't want to rub out 

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anybody's identity, but I don't 
think we are any better since 

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we've had this whole plethora of
labels. 

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I don't think it's making us any
better. 

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I think what people are doing 
are putting themselves in boxes 

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and thinking I've got that and 
then that's a full stop. 

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Whereas if you go, I feel like 
this and I have this experience,

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you can then work on all. 
How can I make that experience 

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work for me or be better for me?
What sort of things are you 

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talking about? 
You talking about ADHD? 

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What we call social anxiety, we 
used to call it shy social 

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anxiety. 
Anything with disorder or 

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syndrome I'm a little bit 
sceptical about because as 

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Doctor Simi IMI said in his book
Searching for Normal, if you put

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disorder behind word, it makes 
it sound like it's a proper 

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thing, but it's nothing you can 
see under the microscope. 

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It's, it's just a set of 
behaviours that people have have

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clubbed together and decided 
it's a thing. 

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I mean, a lot of the Diagnostic 
Statistical Manual, the DSM, 

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the, the, the big fat textbooks 
that psychiatrists use was sort 

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of made-up by a group of about 
12 men that would do 4 disorders

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before lunch and maybe 3 or 4 
after lunch as well. 

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I think it was like 12 men and 
one woman coming up with all 

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these terms for things that go 
in and out of fashion. 

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Like homosexuality was in the 
book to start with. 

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And you know, things go in and 
out of fashion because there 

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isn't any. 
Proper evidence So. 

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So why do you think people are 
often so pleased to be diagnosed

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with something? 
Because it makes sense of how 

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they feel and it's a a sort of 
story in a judgement. 

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And sometimes I think it might 
be an excuse as well. 

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For what? 
For putting my keys in the 

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fridge, right? 
Which I have done on occasions 

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and so if that explains that 
behaviour then I feel like I'm 

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not the only one who puts their 
keys in the fridge when they 

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should have put them on the peg 
by the door. 

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So does this stop us taking 
responsibility for our own? 

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Behaviour. 
I'm worried about that, yeah, 

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I'm, I'm worried that it does. 
And it it's, I mean, I don't 

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know, I mean. 
It's funny you you said. 

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You've got to be very careful 
what you're saying. 

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And I can feel your tension 
almost. 

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Because. 
Because I got. 

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Why are you so worried about 
that? 

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I got cancelled last time. 
Why? 

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What happened? 
Well, I I talked a bit about one

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particular diagnosis and I 
thought it was being overused. 

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And then people with that 
diagnosis, I had a pile on on 

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social media and said I'm not 
going to buy her books anymore. 

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But did it make you think you 
were wrong? 

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It made me think I was wrong in 
the way I did it. 

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00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,440
I don't think I was wrong to go.
Shall we not question these 

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diagnosis a bit? 
And This is why it's so great 

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that people are now, people that
know about these things better 

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00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,160
than me, are talking a lot more 
about overdiagnosis, and I'm 

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00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,560
very pleased that that is 
happening. 

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00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,960
Because there are. 
What are the consequences of 

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overdiagnosis? 
Because I mean, this is an 

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00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,000
argument that sort of spreads 
way beyond the sort of the, you 

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00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,520
know, the, the pages of a, of an
agony aunt, you know, in a 

197
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,080
newspaper. 
I mean, it's about the NHS and 

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00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,640
resources and benefits and 
government and all those sorts 

199
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,920
of things. 
I mean, is this a much bigger 

200
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,040
issue? 
Actually, if you give a child, 

201
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,000
say, a label, they think and 
they think there's something 

202
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,800
wrong with them. 
It sort of comes down on them 

203
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,640
like a judgement sometimes. 
And then if we have a judgement,

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00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,480
that's like a full stop. 
And if we don't have a 

205
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:18,280
judgement, then we can explore 
and we can go on to, you know, 

206
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:25,880
finding good coping mechanisms 
or, or growing out of things. 

207
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,640
But if you've got a label, you 
might believe you're incapable 

208
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,840
of growing out of something or 
or growing through it. 

209
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,880
Is is there such a thing as 
normal or or is normal in fact a

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00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,120
range of behaviours? 
It's very interesting. 

211
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,680
I wrote a book called How to 
Stay Sane. 

212
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:52,600
When I was researching for that 
book, I found thousands of 

213
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:57,360
definitions of insanity, ways of
being abnormal. 

214
00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:03,040
I didn't find one definition of 
normal and what you can do with 

215
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,760
all those definitions. 
You could roughly divide them 

216
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:14,240
into two, and one is leaning 
towards chaos and the other is 

217
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,800
leaning towards rigidity. 
And I thought, well, maybe the 

218
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:24,920
definition of normal or sane is 
somewhere between the two, you 

219
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,280
know, and I'd like to call it 
flexible. 

220
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:32,800
So that means that you're not 
chaotic and all over the place, 

221
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,560
but on the other hand your notes
not so rigid that you can't 

222
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,520
change a plan if you know 
something external happens. 

223
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:50,240
So I think of normal and sanity 
as the ability to organise your 

224
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,480
life but not over organise it. 
Be able to respond in the 

225
00:13:54,480 --> 00:14:03,920
moment, but not be in a 
perpetual state of drama and 

226
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,360
chaos. 
So, so, but are we creating 

227
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,720
problems as well in, in the 
workplace, in in, in healthcare 

228
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,200
with the use of these? 
I'm worried about it. 

229
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,520
I've got a friend who is an 
employer. 

230
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:24,840
She's runs a large publishing 
house and she takes graduates, 

231
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,640
very clever graduates in as you 
know, trainee editors and 

232
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,760
things. 
And they do very well in 

233
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,160
interview. 
And then once they've done their

234
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,760
three months of whatever it is 
before you've got your 

235
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,800
employment contract, then they 
have, then they get a diagnosis 

236
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:50,080
of ADHD and then they go, it's 
not my fault if I'm late because

237
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,000
I've got, I've got this 
diagnosis. 

238
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:59,080
So you're discriminating against
me if I, if you sack me for 

239
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,320
being late, I mean. 
This is a very common tale 

240
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,280
amongst employers and managers 
now, but it's it's seen as sort 

241
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,920
of dreadful, unsympathetic. 
Yeah, and I behaviour and I 

242
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,920
think as well there are, you 
know, there's people that's that

243
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:23,240
are really mentally unwell. 
They're climbing up the walls. 

244
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,640
They're bashing their head 
against the wall. 

245
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:35,600
They're screaming. 
And there are people who find it

246
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,440
difficult, more difficult than 
than others to, say, organize 

247
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,160
their life. 
You know, they're a bit on the 

248
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:48,720
chaotic spectrum. 
The trouble is they're taking up

249
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:53,480
the resources from people who, 
you know, can't leave their room

250
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:59,320
without collapsing or screaming 
or hurting themselves. 

251
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,480
So I feel like it's putting an 
off. 

252
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,440
All these labels are putting a 
huge strain on the NHS. 

253
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,120
Do you? 
Think we need to toughen up? 

254
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:13,040
Don't like toughen up as a word?
I think we need a different way 

255
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,920
of thinking about it rather than
diagnosis. 

256
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,320
I I want to be sympathetic to 
people that are, are are having 

257
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,000
difficulties, but I'm not sure 
that putting them in a box and 

258
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,920
saying this means that is the 
way to do it. 

259
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,360
Do you think we as a as, as a 
society respond to, you know, 

260
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,800
what's going on outside in terms
of our personal happiness? 

261
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,240
A lot. 
You know, we're going through a 

262
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,160
very, very chaotic phase in the 
world at the moment, wars in the

263
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,960
Middle East, Ukraine, Africa, 
and and that's encroaching on 

264
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,200
British politics and the 
conversation and social media a 

265
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,640
lot. 
Does that 'cause people to be 

266
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,880
unhappy and anxious and. 
We've always found things to be 

267
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,440
unhappy and anxious about and 
whatever period we are in 

268
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,760
history, it seems to me that 
we're not very good at 

269
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,000
remembering that quote of you've
never had it so good because, 

270
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,520
you know, if it, if it was, you 
know, it used to be the Cuban 

271
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,480
missile crisis. 
It used to be the Cold War. 

272
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,640
I mean, that was terrifying, the
Cold War when we thought any 

273
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,640
minute now we would have to hide
under the table. 

274
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,440
Why when a, a nuclear bomb went 
off. 

275
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,640
And now we are worried about, 
you know, these wars escalating 

276
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,120
and, and travelling all over the
world and, and affecting 

277
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,240
everyone. 
And we are devastated about 

278
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:41,840
people starving because some 
cruel people won't let them get 

279
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,800
the food. 
It is devastating. 

280
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,040
But I think if we've got the 
capacity to be miserable, we 

281
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:54,520
will find an outside 
justification for that misery. 

282
00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:01,400
So I think our misery and our 
happiness is sort of internal to

283
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,800
quite an extent, and then we 
find an object external to 

284
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,400
ourselves to put it on. 
So we are the miserable ones, 

285
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,240
but we're looking for something 
to be miserable about. 

286
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,360
Yes. 
What? 

287
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,880
Why? 
Why do we do that Well, And is 

288
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,280
it all of us, or is it just some
of us? 

289
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,320
Oh, I think it is more or less 
all of us. 

290
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,880
I think you are to blame 
actually. 

291
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:28,120
With your yeah, catastrophizing.
It's if you can find the most 

292
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:34,000
catastrophizing headline that is
the one we're going to click on 

293
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:42,800
because we'll get more emotional
movement from something that's 

294
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,080
horrific. 
I mean, the the reason that the 

295
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,800
dog on the skateboard stories 
happen at the very end is that 

296
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,960
they're never going to grab 
someone to start watching the 

297
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,520
news with that. 
Why? 

298
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,320
Why do we have that negativity 
bias? 

299
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:02,560
Because it's, it's, it's sort 
of, I think it's because we are 

300
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,440
wired to look for ginger because
there we are, you know, in the, 

301
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,560
in the, in the desert, in the 
Seren, whatever it was called. 

302
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:12,400
The Serengeti. 
That's. 

303
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,440
The one there we are in the 
Serengeti, this is where we've 

304
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,360
evolved from and it's no good 
looking out for the pretty 

305
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,800
flowers. 
We've got to look out for when 

306
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,120
the pack of lions is coming down
on us. 

307
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:28,720
We've got to look out for people
that and animals that see us as 

308
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,720
easy meat. 
So we are wired to look for 

309
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,800
danger. 
But in a walking here along 

310
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,960
Grazing Rd., nobody was going to
jump me, you know, Not in broad 

311
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,120
daylight anyway. 
So we so we need to adapt to. 

312
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,560
So, so I'm looking out for the 
headlines or I'm, you know, 

313
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,480
scrolling, looking for, we're 
still looking for danger because

314
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,560
that's what we're sort of 
evolved to do. 

315
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,760
That's how we have survived. 
That's how we have evolved. 

316
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,200
So we are wired to look for 
danger. 

317
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:04,680
We don't look for the happy 
stories because the happy 

318
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,600
stories aren't a threat. 
And if we don't look out for 

319
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,800
threats, then maybe it will be 
dangerous. 

320
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:18,320
And do you find yourself looking
out for danger evolved to a 

321
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,360
higher plane? 
I'm not saying it's a higher 

322
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:24,880
plane, but I've got very low 
tolerance for bad news, so I 

323
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:31,080
tend to get my news from looking
at Have I got news for you or? 

324
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:32,760
So you've you've become a news 
avoider. 

325
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,760
I am a news and do you think? 
News avoidance is a good state 

326
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,720
to be in then as a result. 
For your, I can't speak for 

327
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,080
other people, but I know I get 
over stimulated by it and 

328
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,680
frustrated that it's talking 
about terrible things that I 

329
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,840
feel powerless to do anything 
about. 

330
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:56,360
And there's two sorts of worry. 
There's productive worry when we

331
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,400
think about something problem 
solve, and there's neurotic 

332
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,520
worry that goes round and round 
in circles and just makes us 

333
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,960
miserable. 
And I think if I listened or 

334
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:12,000
watched too much news, I'd get 
stuck in a neurotic worry cycle.

335
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,320
I could worry about it, but what
could I do about it? 

336
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,120
So what? 
Why? 

337
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,920
Why don't? 
Why am I able to exist in the 

338
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,200
world in which it doesn't bring 
me down but. 

339
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,880
Because some of us are orchids 
and some of us are dandelions, 

340
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:38,440
and an orchid needs special 
soil, special climate in order 

341
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,920
to thrive. 
And it doesn't hasn't got that 

342
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,360
it it won't thrive. 
A dandelion can come up in the 

343
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,200
crack in the pavement and 
thrive. 

344
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,480
And we need both types. 
You're calling me a Hardy weed? 

345
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,200
We need Hardy weeds. 
We need both types. 

346
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,000
And the other thing is, I think 
you probably feel like you have 

347
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,200
a purpose when you're doing the 
news. 

348
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,080
You know, you've, there's a 
reason why you're telling us the

349
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,040
news. 
You're informing us you're, 

350
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,600
you're doing a sort of a useful 
job. 

351
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,880
I don't know if I can be that 
useful if I listen to it, but 

352
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,320
I'm sure other people can. 
Other people can decide to go on

353
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,240
a March about it or or feel like
they're doing something too. 

354
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,600
You do that, don't you? 
I mean you. 

355
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,840
You demonstrate about things. 
I do demonstrate sometimes. 

356
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:32,240
I demonstrated against the Iran 
Iraq war Fat lot of good that 

357
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,160
did, but it made me feel useful 
for a day maybe. 

358
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:36,800
Well, what? 
Yes, So what? 

359
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,960
So what is demonstration about 
making you feel better? 

360
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:42,880
Or do you think it makes a 
difference? 

361
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,040
I don't know, but it does make 
one feel like you're doing 

362
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,760
something so it doesn't feel so 
hopeless. 

363
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,360
So it's a good thing to do 
regardless. 

364
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,040
It's a nice day out, nice day 
out with your friends. 

365
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,520
When was your last nice day out 
to demonstrate? 

366
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:04,240
Oh, when I was I'm demonstrating
against the Observer being taken

367
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,520
over by Tortoise Media, right? 
I waved a placard. 

368
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,640
And why were you so against 
that? 

369
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,640
Because I didn't understand the 
deal. 

370
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,800
I didn't understand why. 
It's looked to me like the 

371
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:26,040
Guardian were giving away a part
of the paper that was actually 

372
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,440
not losing any money, but they 
weren't investing in it and they

373
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,240
had the funds to invest in it, 
so it could have done better. 

374
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:39,800
And I also did not understand 
how Tortoise Media were going to

375
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,120
do it properly. 
And I didn't understand who half

376
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:47,400
the backers were. 
And and do you, do you still 

377
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,720
feel the same way about it now 
that? 

378
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,800
I do, yeah. 
Because you. 

379
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,280
Because you, you've, you know, 
that was the sort of end of view

380
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,720
on the newspaper. 
I was going to move with them. 

381
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,880
Oh, right. 
But I, I was, I got, I said 

382
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,440
those things I've just told you 
in public and I was summoned to 

383
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,880
the headmaster's office, or so 
it felt like. 

384
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,520
And I was told we're going to 
hold your column this week until

385
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,520
you and I have had a little chat
come into my office. 

386
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,320
And I thought, I don't get, I'm 
I'm 67. 

387
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,240
You can't. 
You can't summon me into the 

388
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,120
headmaster's office and give me 
a telling off. 

389
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,080
So I said you can telephone me 
if you want. 

390
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,480
And if you hold my column this 
week, which was all ready to go 

391
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,600
on the page, if you hold my 
column this week, I will walk. 

392
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,680
And I walked across the street 
to Substack, where I've been 

393
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,840
very happily esconced ever 
since. 

394
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,600
And do you think Substack, which
is which is really interesting. 

395
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,520
I mean, you know, people are 
building big communities and 

396
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,000
getting people to pay to read 
their stuff. 

397
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,160
I don't know what you know, how 
how it's going for you yet. 

398
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,880
But I mean, do you think that is
a replacement for newspapers? 

399
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:59,360
Well, the consumer can decide 
precisely who they read. 

400
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,000
So if something. 
That's good and bad, isn't it? 

401
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,600
Yes, it's good and bad. 
So if somebody used to get the 

402
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,680
Observer, because I was in the 
back of the magazine and that 

403
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,720
was their favorite bit and they 
bought that, they also got some 

404
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,280
very good recipes and some World
News and some opinions, but they

405
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,560
might not have wanted that. 
Now they just get what they pay 

406
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,440
for. 
Yeah, what they want. 

407
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,400
They can hone in on individual 
contributors, as it were. 

408
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,760
But. 
It isn't that also in the same 

409
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,640
way as social media kind of 
going to build hyper engaged 

410
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,280
communities around particular 
ideas, movements which some of 

411
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,840
which may be completely bonkers,
yeah. 

412
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,800
Better society may have a 
substance, I don't know, but if 

413
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,800
people are interested in 
psychology and how people solve 

414
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,120
their problems then they can 
subscribe to. 

415
00:25:56,120 --> 00:26:00,240
Me, yes. 
And, and do you know, do you 

416
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:07,400
think social media is as bad for
our mental health as a lot of 

417
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,200
people do? 
Somebody suggested that all 

418
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,520
social media platforms should 
shut down at 7:00 every night 

419
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,440
until the following. 
Morning so people can watch 

420
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,400
Channel 4 News. 
Yeah. 

421
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,760
But I thought that was such a 
genius idea. 

422
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,360
Do you remember when the 
television used to go off at, 

423
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,880
you know what, it was midnight 
or something? 

424
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,240
And I just thought that is such 
a good idea. 

425
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,560
We should have no X or Facebook 
or anything after. 

426
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,200
Let's be more flexible, 8:00 at 
night. 

427
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,840
I just thought that was such a 
great idea, obviously 

428
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,080
impractical. 
Do I think I think it's good in 

429
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,680
some ways. 
I mean, I think I've made 

430
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,000
friends through social media 
that I wouldn't otherwise have 

431
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,960
met. 
The other thing is, if you meet 

432
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,520
someone enough to vent and you 
swap Instagram pages or 

433
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,840
something, you can keep in touch
with them or get in touch with 

434
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,960
them in a very sort of informal 
way. 

435
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:01,960
But you've you've, you've, you 
know, in this conversation you 

436
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,960
should have admitted how you 
feel a bit policed by us as 

437
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,800
well, by the by the threat of 
being cancelled. 

438
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,920
Yeah, that's not very good for 
you, saying what you think, is 

439
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,440
it? 
Some people are braver than me 

440
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,200
and they say what they think 
anyway and I've got huge 

441
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:25,680
admiration for them. 
But what I did was I just didn't

442
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,360
go on it for a month, Just peep 
in. 

443
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,280
Oh, they've forgotten about me. 
I can come back in do. 

444
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,040
You think that's the answer 
generally? 

445
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,600
I don't know. 
Sort of. 

446
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:43,280
I think some people aren't going
to change their mind, whatever 

447
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:52,880
you say, and so it might be best
just not to bother say it. 

448
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,520
That that can also be true of 
very close personal 

449
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,440
relationships, can't it? 
And you've written about parents

450
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,760
and children. 
Yeah, I have. 

451
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,800
Quite a lot. 
Now, one of the things, you 

452
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,360
know, one of the themes, I 
suppose, of your advice is to 

453
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,720
communicate, Yeah, between 
parents and, you know, between 

454
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,080
generations. 
Yeah. 

455
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,080
You know, a lot of parents 
struggle with children who you 

456
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,800
know don't want to communicate. 
They when you when you ask them 

457
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,640
how they feel, when you say 
children talk to them and they 

458
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,840
don't want. 
To children are born wanting to 

459
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,480
communicate. 
And you, you, you have a baby of

460
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:34,160
about 3 months on your knee like
that and you naturally begin 

461
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,080
turn taking, yeah, you know, 
they'll stick out their tongue 

462
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,840
and then you will find yourself 
mirroring that. 

463
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,760
And you play this game of 
swapping facial expressions, 

464
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,840
rhythm of looking away, looking 
back. 

465
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:56,840
And that develops into people 
and children are born wanting 

466
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,440
this contact, wanting to 
communicate. 

467
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:06,720
And if we have the time to put 
in and talk to them all the 

468
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:12,440
time, they won't suddenly want 
to stop. 

469
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,880
But if we haven't done that and 
then we suddenly want them to 

470
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,560
talk to us, we've we've got to 
learn to listen first. 

471
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,800
So it's so it's not that kids 
get to about 16 and just decide.

472
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,480
They Oh yeah, they do at 16. 
At six, they don't. 

473
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Yeah, I don't want to talk a 
little. 

474
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,280
Bit older, I mean, oh, 16 is 
that is delightful because what 

475
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:38,200
happens when a child hits 
puberty and adolescence is that 

476
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,040
they are biologically programmed
to sort of want to separate from

477
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,320
the family of origin and find 
their new tribe. 

478
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:52,000
And in order to do that, 
sometimes they they haven't got 

479
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,000
the skills to sort of distance 
politely. 

480
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,520
So it's not I hate you, you 
know, the typical Kevin and 

481
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,920
Perry speech. 
I hate you and what that's about

482
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,520
is they don't hate you but they 
need to hate you in the moment 

483
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,960
so that they can find their own 
tribe otherwise they'd be comfy 

484
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,520
forever. 
And they are going to live 

485
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,240
longer than us so it's not safe 
for them to be just stuck in the

486
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,520
family of origin forever. 
They have to find a tribe, 

487
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,000
another tribe to join that's 
their age, that they can form a 

488
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,040
community with and find a mate 
from. 

489
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,640
And then when they have got that
tribe, you know, when they do 

490
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,600
come back from university and 
they have got a girlfriend or a 

491
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,920
boyfriend or a partner or 
whatever, then they're really 

492
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,360
nice again and they've forgotten
all about, oh, hey, you. 

493
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,720
They've forgotten about how to 
do. 

494
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,360
That so it's just hang in there.
It's just hang in there and and 

495
00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:01,120
what happened when my daughter 
aged about 14, she told me to F 

496
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:07,960
off and you know, me all knowing
PR JS stages of development and 

497
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,080
things like that. 
I was so pleased I went, Oh 

498
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,760
darling, you're separating. 
Which wasn't the wasn't the most

499
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,720
tactful thing I could have said,
because it infuriated her even 

500
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,360
further. 
I had AI had a similar moment. 

501
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,120
I remember when my son was 18 
months old and he he he bent 

502
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,560
down to pick something up and 
then got up and banged his head 

503
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,280
on the door knob and rubbed his 
head and said oh shit. 

504
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,520
And I thought he's very 
advanced. 

505
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,480
Yeah, brilliant. 
Oh shit, he's also he's got self

506
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,080
soothing down to AT there. 
Beautiful. 

507
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,320
I just wanted to ask you finally
about about being Lady Perry. 

508
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,240
Oh yes, which? 
Is what you are now I'm doctor 

509
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,040
Lady Perry or Lady? 
Or am I? 

510
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,320
Lady Doctor, A lady doctor? 
Sounds like I want to look at 

511
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,960
your bits, doesn't it? 
So, no. 

512
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,320
So. 
Doctor. 

513
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:52,840
Lady So. 
How, how do you feel about, I 

514
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,960
mean, people normally ask you 
about, you know, what's it like 

515
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,520
being married to a transvestite?
I sort of wanted to ask you 

516
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,960
about sort of what's it like 
getting a title because your 

517
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,800
husband got got the knighthood? 
Makes admin really difficult, 

518
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:15,120
like you've got miss misses any 
other title and so admins are 

519
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,240
difficult. 
What what else? 

520
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,280
It hasn't really made much 
difference. 

521
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,960
Do you use it? 
Do you use it on? 

522
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,880
Do you use airline tickets and 
restaurant reservations and. 

523
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,600
No, I don't use it on 
restaurants, reservations, 

524
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,080
airline tickets. 
Well, I think it's on my credit 

525
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:38,440
card my my bank card. 
So I probably is on an airline 

526
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,800
ticket, yes, and that that's 
quite useful because I said, 

527
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,840
would you like a glass of 
champagne, Lady Perry? 

528
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,760
So that is quite. 
I quite like that do. 

529
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,320
Do you feel you're sort of more 
establishment than you perhaps 

530
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,320
would have been comfortable with
20 years ago? 

531
00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,520
Oh, it's a very nice place to be
establishment, as you well know.

532
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:06,200
Well, yeah, of course I like 
total hands up, but you know, 

533
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,520
you're you're one step ahead, 
aren't you? 

534
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,200
I mean you I. 
Don't feel like I'm one step 

535
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,560
ahead. 
I mean if. 

536
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,560
I'm more than one step ahead 
because, I mean, you're already 

537
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,720
sort of, you're already the 
darlings of the establishment 

538
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,160
and you're invited to every 
wonderful party everywhere. 

539
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,280
Now you've got the titles as 
well. 

540
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,840
I don't think it makes any 
difference really. 

541
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:29,440
I think it is is. 
I don't think going from miss to

542
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,000
misses made any difference. 
I don't think going from misses 

543
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,680
to ladies. 
Do do you mean that about the 

544
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,440
establishment though? 
That it's nice to be part of. 

545
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,200
Oh, it's lovely because I do 
enjoy going to parties and if 

546
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,280
you want to be a little bit 
naughty and push against, it's 

547
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000
much easier to do that from the 
inside than it is from the 

548
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,600
outside. 
Yes, we do get invited to things

549
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,960
and it it's very nice. 
But I think I also get invited 

550
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,680
to things because I've got a 
best selling book, so it's very 

551
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,720
nice to be invited to Booker 
events and things like that. 

552
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,720
But I think as you get older and
you get known in your 

553
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,920
profession, I think this happens
to a lot of people. 

554
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,280
And so and So what? 
What's next? 

555
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,400
Because like your career, you've
been a bit of not a late 

556
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,719
starter, but a late. 
No, I'm a late starter. 

557
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,880
I'm a really late starter 
because I was terrible at 

558
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,239
school, not academic at all, 
couldn't spell, still can't 

559
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,480
spell. 
And when I was at school, things

560
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,280
like spelling mattered because 
I'm 67, so I was at school in 

561
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,159
the 60s. 
And so they wanted you to spell 

562
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,120
more than express yourself. 
So I did really badly at school 

563
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,199
and then I never took myself 
seriously at work. 

564
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,159
I sort of like, I didn't have a 
career. 

565
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:47,920
I had jobs and then I was lucky 
enough to inherit some money so 

566
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:54,440
I could go to art school. 
And at art school I was much 

567
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,360
older than the other students. 
So I spent my time being a bit 

568
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,800
of a cougar, which was quite 
fun. 

569
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:06,480
And then then what happened? 
Oh yeah. 

570
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,360
Then my first marriage, see 
above, my first marriage failed 

571
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:18,000
and and then I met Grayson and 
that's gone very well. 

572
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,880
And I think when we had a child,
time becomes so precious that 

573
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,640
you want to spend it so it 
counts. 

574
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,640
You have so little free time 
because you're going most of the

575
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,640
time with the baby. 
And so that's when I trained to 

576
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,360
be a psychotherapist and start 
to take work seriously. 

577
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,640
So I was a really late starter. 
I, I, I don't think am I, I 

578
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,280
don't think I started taking 
clients till I was 38. 

579
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,760
And I suppose you've become 
famous in your 60s. 

580
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,200
I came, I wrote my first book in
my 50s, which was called Couch 

581
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,360
Fiction. 
And that was like a calling 

582
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,000
card. 
It was about psychotherapy. 

583
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,840
It, it was a graphic novel about
psychotherapy. 

584
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,720
And that became a calling card. 
So then I became a, what is 

585
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:11,760
known as, I think, as a 
lifestyle journalist, which 

586
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,800
meant that I then got a job on 
Red Magazine as an agony aunt. 

587
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,200
And, you know, this was my 
calling. 

588
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,760
I absolutely loved it. 
And then I moved on to the 

589
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,240
Observer. 
So I didn't start doing anything

590
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:29,760
in public until I was in my 50s,
you know, writing books and 

591
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,760
things. 
So I'm a really late start. 

592
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,440
And do you think being a 
psychotherapist is the thing 

593
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,320
that makes you qualify to be an 
agony aunt? 

594
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,240
Or would you have been an agony 
aunt anyway? 

595
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:40,800
The. 
Thing that makes you qualify to 

596
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,400
be an agony aunt is being a good
writer because you are. 

597
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,200
You want to get the reader's 
attention and you want to keep 

598
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,440
it. 
And so I think there are some 

599
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,160
very good agony aunts that are 
just excellent writers. 

600
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,160
Graham Norton, for instance, or,
you know, people like that. 

601
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,560
And I think they just offer 
something different. 

602
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,400
It's another person's point of 
view, the fact that I am a 

603
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:13,280
qualified psychotherapist. 
I don't know if that that gives 

604
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,040
me a little bit more weight. 
I have a little bit more 

605
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,240
background to draw on for my 
answers and. 

606
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,320
And do you feel sure about your 
answers or do you or do you 

607
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,400
think I might be getting this 
wrong? 

608
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,320
Yeah, I do. 
I think I might be getting this 

609
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,200
wrong. 
I think if I felt sure about my 

610
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,840
answers, I'd be in big trouble. 
Because I let you know when 

611
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,560
you've got it wrong. 
Do they write to you and say, 

612
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,760
well, I did what you said and. 
No what my? 

613
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,920
Husband left me. 
Can't help that, I'm afraid. 

614
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,120
What I usually do is I have some
correspondence with the person 

615
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,280
whose letter I'm going to use, 
and I go, this strikes me like 

616
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,800
that, Does that fit for you? 
And they go, no, it's not like 

617
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,720
that at all. 
And they put me right. 

618
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:54,640
I go, oh, so we have a little 
bit. 

619
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,400
Of. 
Yeah, usually. 

620
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,680
Sometimes I just get straight in
there but. 

621
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,160
So what we read is sort of the 
end of a process. 

622
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,000
Yeah, quite often, yeah. 
And do people stay in touch? 

623
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,960
Yes, some of them do, yeah. 
And is that is it always 

624
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,520
positive or do you get, I mean 
like do people? 

625
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,120
Yeah, it's usually positive. 
Yes, it's usually positive. 

626
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:24,640
I mean, I had a wonderful one of
a woman who wrote to me who had 

627
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,080
just four months to live. 
You know, she'd got advanced 

628
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:33,040
stage cancer and she wanted to 
know whether she should leave a 

629
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,400
manual for her husband's next 
wife. 

630
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,160
You know, would it be bad for me
to write this manual? 

631
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,080
And I just thought, this is what
you want to do, Do it. 

632
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:50,920
And it made a wonderful column 
because it was mostly her sort 

633
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,120
of working stuff out. 
And I only wrote a very little 

634
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,320
bit going. 
You go, girl, you're teaching us

635
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,640
everything. 
So quite often my columns are 

636
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,680
actually written by the people 
that write in. 

637
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,160
It's the easiest job in the 
world. 

638
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,880
It's half done by the public. 
And what was wonderful about 

639
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,280
that is that I kept in touch not
only with her, but with the 

640
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,800
Hospice and her husband as well 
for a while. 

641
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,720
Her widower, Yeah. 
So there's things like that that

642
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:21,120
I'll I'll remember because they,
they touched me. 

643
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,280
Well, and people can get a hold 
of you on Substack now. 

644
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,400
They can get a hold of me on 
substackaskphilippa@yahoo.com as

645
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:29,280
well. 
Great. 

646
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,480
Well, thank you very much indeed
for coming in and telling us all

647
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:32,560
about it. 
Thank you. 

648
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,880
Philippa Perry, Lady Doctor. 
Philippa Perry. 

649
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,840
That's right. 
Thank you very much for sharing 

650
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:37,800
your way to. 
Thank you. 

651
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,880
Thank you for having me. 
That's it for this episode of 

652
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,640
Where to Change the World. 
You can watch all of these 

653
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,000
interviews on the Channel 4 News
YouTube channel. 

654
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,440
Until next time, bye bye.