1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,520 Higher education has been in a tailspin for a really long time, 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:08,080 the affordability crisis, the rocketing tuition prices, and 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,400 it's made itself an easy target as something that is frivolous 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,200 and elitist and like a hotbed of woke leftist ideologies. 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,960 I think we read again to understand how the world looks 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,680 to somebody who is not us. The idea that AI could produce 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,200 good literature is such a condescending attitude to to 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,040 what people read for it who AI couldn't have done for English 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,960 but Shakespeare did. So can the machine do it better? 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:36,440 No, the machine can't do it better. 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,960 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,040 I'm Christian Girimurthy, and this is the podcast in which we 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,560 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,720 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,720 My guest today is Rebecca Kwong, the best selling novelist whose 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,520 books explore some of the most fraught debates of our time, 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,360 interrogating racism in publishing, cultural 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,400 appropriation, tokenism and diversity in politics, not to 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,080 mention empire and colonialism. Her novel Yellow Face in 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,000 particular struck a nerve, highlighting the pressures and 21 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,360 hypocrisies of the modern literary world, from social 22 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,880 media mobbing and cancel culture to the uncomfortable questions 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,240 about who gets to tell which story. 24 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,880 She has a new novel out now and another one on the way. 25 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,360 Rebecca, welcome. Thank you for coming. 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,600 Thanks for having me. How would you change the world? 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,240 I would totally reform higher education. 28 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,040 I would make it so that students could study under conditions of 29 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,320 total academic freedom, something that we should be able 30 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:41,640 to take for granted in the US, and freedom, including the 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,120 ability to graduate debt free without taking on loans that 32 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,920 follow them for the rest of their lives. 33 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,400 I would make higher education popular and accessible at every 34 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,640 point in your life. I would turn a good education 35 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,640 from a luxury product. This is something that everybody 36 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,880 is entitled to because I'm a PhD student, I'm transitioning to 37 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,040 being a teacher. And the way I see it, there are 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,160 two main crises facing academia right now. 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,800 And the first is just this rising tide of anti 40 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,760 intellectualism and overt attacks on academic freedom and 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,200 federal funding and certain topics that our government 42 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,360 doesn't think it should be taught in colleges and 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,400 universities. And on the other hand, those 44 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,680 people who criticize our research centers and 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,520 universities as being elitist and out of touch and frivolous, 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,600 they're they're not altogether wrong because we also have a 47 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,160 tuition crisis and a student loan crisis where tuitions 48 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,200 increased since 1978 at a rate of something like 1300%. 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,560 Its quadruples the rate of inflation and made it nearly 50 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,800 impossible for anybody without significant family wealth or 51 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,440 special circumstances like merit based scholarships to to get a 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,080 good education without hundreds of thousands of dollars in 53 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,840 loans. And this is devastating because 54 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,800 I think the work that we do in the humanities, the work we do 55 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,080 in the Academy, as as obsolete and out of touch and as 56 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,120 irrelevant as the critics may claim it is. 57 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,640 It is precisely those skills of slow attention, close reading 58 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:34,240 and critical thinking and arguing in good faith that are 59 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,120 the safeguards that will protect our ability to connect and make 60 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,040 policy and really look out for each other in this world of 61 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,000 increasing fragmentation and isolation and social media 62 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,240 tribalism. So I for if I could have 63 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,960 anything I wanted for Christmas, it would be a defence of the 64 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,000 best things about the Academy that would be accessible to 65 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,160 everybody. There's a lot to unpack in that. 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,520 I mean, can we begin with academic freedom in in what way 67 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,960 do you really think academic freedom is under attack? 68 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,480 Well, there's literally topics that at some universities you 69 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,200 can't talk about anymore. You can't teach in all of its 70 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,320 depth and nuance. Take gender roles, right? 71 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,399 Take the issues of gender presentation. 72 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,720 The policy at so many universities now is you can only 73 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,920 teach that there are two genders, 2 sexes, which is 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:32,200 something that no equity in the fields of biology or gender 75 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,440 theory agrees upon. You know, even if you are an 76 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,240 animal biologist looking at like really simple organisms, like 77 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,160 even you wouldn't think that there are only two sexes. 78 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,800 And this is something and, and even no matter what your 79 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,880 political views are, right, it's something that you should be 80 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,600 able to debate and discuss in the round and read literature on 81 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,760 and really carefully think about in the classroom, which should 82 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,400 be a protected space where all ideas merit consideration. 83 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,440 So when you say you can't, I mean what? 84 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,760 What happens if a professor raises that question in a as as 85 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,480 a discussion? They get fired. 86 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,520 This has happened there. There are a lot of like DEI 87 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,040 programs that have been shuttered, but I think it a 88 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,280 better description is just inconvenient truths for this 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,320 administration's dogmatic ideology, right. 90 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,400 And that encompasses gender, encompasses history, it 91 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,400 encompasses new wants, reflections on specific 92 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,840 geopolitical situations. And it's just a total avoidance 93 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:40,680 of truth and complexity in favor of ideology and quick, simple 94 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,920 reductive judgments. And that makes it very hard to 95 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,760 be in a classroom where you don't know if a student is 96 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,240 filming you, you don't know if. If, and this just happened in 97 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,920 the USA, teaching assistant I believe gave a student a poor 98 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,200 grade on a paper because she didn't respond to the prompt. 99 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,760 The prompt was about whether support for gender presentation 100 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,200 would minimize bullying. It for for younger for for 101 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,000 children. And the response was the 102 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,800 response paper just called trans people demonic. 103 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,680 It cited or it had talked about the Bible without citing it, and 104 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,680 it it in no way engaged intellectually with the demands 105 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,680 of the class. And the the TA said, we haven't 106 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,880 done the to prompt. You can have any range of views, 107 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,720 but you have to carefully defend them and cite them. 108 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,800 And that student immediately went to the governor and and 109 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,400 tried to get that instructor suspended. 110 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,320 I actually think the instructor has been suspended. 111 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,760 So those are the conditions under which American academics 112 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,280 are teaching right now. And what effect is that having 113 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,080 on the freedom to think? You know, how do academics feel 114 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,480 in American universities right now in your world? 115 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:00,000 I mean, it has a huge silencing effect. 116 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,320 And the worst thing is that it just makes you a bad teacher. 117 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,480 There are all these things that you can't expose your students 118 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:12,240 to and think carefully through. I what I'm, I'm not saying that 119 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,080 teachers have to be able to impose their personal political 120 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,520 beliefs or ideologies on their students. 121 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,840 And I'm not saying that, oh, it's a shame that we can't be 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,720 openly left. Actually, it is a shame that we 123 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,880 can't be openly leftist in the classroom. 124 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,840 I'm saying that you have to be able to introduce your students 125 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,840 to all the literature that's out there again, to discuss ideas in 126 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,920 the round, all the opposing viewpoints and and put them in 127 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,440 contention and help your students think through them 128 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,120 rather than just telling them this is the dogmatic truths is 129 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:44,360 the only thing you're allowed to believe. 130 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,800 I mean, why do you think this is happening? 131 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,480 You know, do you think that's part of a bigger plan? 132 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:54,640 I mean, the attacks on academia are part of a very old playbook. 133 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,480 I have conflicted feelings about this because I think as of the 134 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,760 last two years, the attacks on funding, the withdrawal of visas 135 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,720 for foreign scholars, these like really censored conditions that 136 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,720 have led to the firings of suspensions of so many scholars. 137 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,120 That is new and that is terrifying. 138 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,760 But higher education has been in a tailspin for a really long 139 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,880 time. I, I mean, so many people have 140 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:28,240 written about the affordability crisis, the rocketing tuition 141 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,000 prices and the impact that not having support to pay off your 142 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,799 student loans has had on a whole generation of people who can't 143 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:41,600 find good jobs and are really struggling under the weight of 144 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,320 that debt. So for a long time, the college 145 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,280 education, like people's trust and research institutions and 146 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,480 higher education has been eroding and it's become it. 147 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,760 It's made itself an easy target as something that is frivolous 148 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,800 and elitist and like a hotbed of woke leftist ID. 149 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:05,800 And it's all strayed so far from its original mission that when 150 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,240 this administration came to power, I think it was easy to 151 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,240 point fingers and say that this is the root of all of our social 152 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:13,760 ills. A. 153 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,880 Lot of it also began with the the the protests against Israel 154 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,960 or pro Palestine protests on college campuses as well. 155 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,320 And, you know, accusations that universities had failed to 156 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,160 tackle anti-Semitism. You know, do you think they had 157 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:33,040 also made themselves easy to criticize on that topic as well? 158 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:39,560 I, I mean, I was at student protests at my institution. 159 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,760 I was at the encampments, I was watching people chanting in the 160 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,920 streets and, and these were peaceful protests. 161 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,240 These were acts of love and solidarity. 162 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:56,280 And I saw the police cars and, and I saw the fear in people's 163 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,240 eyes. I, I don't think universities 164 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,960 were kind to student protesters. If anything, the, the over 165 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,680 violence with which they responded was devastating. 166 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:14,200 And I think the very fact of the protests did open a lot of 167 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,960 schools up to exactly what this unit, this administration was 168 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,720 seeking, which was any excuse to to find them, to sanction them 169 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,920 and and to force them to lick the boot. 170 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,880 I mean, what's quite interesting is the administration has 171 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,840 published their foreign policy strategy, and it's sort of 172 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,160 illuminating, I think, in terms of what they're doing at home as 173 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,960 well, which is seeing things as a battle of civilization and 174 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:46,520 that they feel their mission is to preserve or take back a 175 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,640 civilization that was under threat. 176 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,680 Do do you feel that is the real goal? 177 00:10:53,600 --> 00:11:01,240 I, I mean, this might get me in trouble, but I'm very suspicious 178 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:06,080 when fascist thinkers argue that they're really about bringing 179 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,480 back Western civilization about the Greeks, you know, the, the 180 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,840 classics, the hot or the tenets of conservative thought that 181 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,160 that make us a proud sophisticated people, etcetera. 182 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,760 Because I, I really try to listen to voices on all sides of 183 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,320 the political spectrum and I try take seriously any thinker who 184 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,080 is drawing from those traditions and, and I've read some of these 185 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,240 polemics and they don't understand what Socrates is 186 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,440 talking about. They are not close reading the 187 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,360 classics. This is not about respect for 188 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,680 some civilization that they think they're intellectual heirs 189 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:46,960 to. I think the lesson that we've 190 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,600 learned about fascism from a lot of respected scholars who write 191 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,120 about the history of fascist ideologies is that it's totally 192 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:00,800 inconsistent as an ideology. All these claims about the, the 193 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,360 philosophies that inspired it or the, the principles it adheres 194 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,200 to, they're all just convenient drivel to say in the moment. 195 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,800 But fascism is ultimately about getting power and holding on to 196 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,640 power. There there is no claim about 197 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,760 Western civilization that fascists can make that is 198 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,880 consistent and defensible and and they don't care. 199 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,200 It's just a talking point to. Them. 200 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:26,600 Who do you think are the fascists? 201 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,600 Yeah. I think this administration are 202 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,800 fascists. And just explain why. 203 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,360 I think they are doing everything in the playbook to 204 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,480 seize control of all arms of government through 205 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,800 unconstitutional means, to enact a suite of policies that are 206 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,040 discriminatory and violent and and motivated by this ethno 207 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,280 nationalist hatred. I think that's that's about as 208 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,600 fascist as you can get. What is your reply? 209 00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:59,320 Lies of people who who may not be supporters of Trump, but who 210 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:04,240 say, look, Trump is not a Nazi, he may want power, but to jump 211 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:11,120 to fascist associates him with the biggest evils in our history 212 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,040 and that that's an unfair branding, if you like. 213 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:20,960 I would say, read the news, pay attention to what's going on in 214 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,560 the US. Look at the deportations, look 215 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,080 at what ICE is doing. People are being grabbed on the 216 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,800 streets for just, even if they're fully documented 217 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,800 American citizens, right? They're still being brutalized 218 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,520 on the streets for looking a certain way or presenting as a 219 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,320 certain race. Look at the family separations. 220 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,680 If. If that's not evil, I don't know 221 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:46,280 what is. And So what? 222 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:53,160 What is your role then in this? I thought a lot about this. 223 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:58,720 I was reading the very good Timothy Snyder book on On 224 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,800 Tyranny, which has 21 lessons to learn from the 20th century on 225 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,000 fascism. And one of the lessons that 226 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,400 really stuck with me is care about professional ethics. 227 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:16,160 And it it seems a bit frivolous or counterintuitive at first 228 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,840 blush, because why should we care about professional ethics 229 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,320 when everything is falling apart? 230 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,560 But his point is, is deeper. He says, you know, if you're a 231 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:29,120 doctor, then maintain your obligations and responsibilities 232 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,800 to your patients rather than giving in to medical 233 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,720 misinformation and fad cures and claims about health that are 234 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,120 untested. If your lawyer care about the 235 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,960 Constitution, care about the law, don't be corrupt. 236 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,280 And and if you're a teacher, care about teaching your 237 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:53,120 students to discern between what's real and what's fake and 238 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,840 empower them to think carefully about this world that they're 239 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,440 inheriting and how to sort through the barrage of 240 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,240 propaganda that's being flung at them. 241 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:09,040 And I think that's the place where most academics can make 242 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,600 the most of an intervention. I remember last spring, I was 243 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,280 teaching an undergraduate writing seminar called Reading 244 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,360 and Writing the Modern Essay. And it was tons of fun and I had 245 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,520 14 wonderful kids and the discussions always really lively 246 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,560 and people are always so well prepared and eager to talk about 247 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,560 the assigned readings. And and I noticed the week of 248 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,920 the inauguration, the atmosphere in the class, it was just dead. 249 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,280 Nobody was talking. Nobody really wanted to be 250 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,600 there. Like people looked like they've 251 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,240 been crying. I think a lot of them were 252 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,200 grappling with what does this mean for them? 253 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,120 What does this mean for what what they'll be taught in a 254 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,600 classroom the the world that they'll be entering in after 255 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:02,040 they they finish their time in college? 256 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,120 And I said, I, I can't fix this for you guys. 257 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,080 And I don't even know that I have many of the tools to teach 258 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,280 you how how to deal with this, this very uncertain terrain 259 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,600 we're entering. But in this class, we are 260 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,320 learning to articulate our thoughts clearly. 261 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:25,120 We're learning to read closely and to understand the impact of 262 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,000 our words and our rhetoric, how they create an effect in other 263 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,200 people. We're learning to build that 264 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:35,080 slow, careful authority and that slow attention to what people 265 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,080 are really saying and writing about rather than making quick 266 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,440 judgments about others. And, and we're learning to 267 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:48,280 discern again between a web of lies crafted by rhetoric and 268 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,120 truth claims about the world. And I said, that's what I can 269 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,360 give you. And I think these are tools that 270 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,800 you'll need to take with you. And that's the best I can do. 271 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,520 But I think that really matters. And I think everybody in the 272 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,480 humanities, I always, I, I have this like humanity's inferiority 273 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,079 complex because it seems like being out there doing Cancer 274 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,680 Research is so much more obviously relevant. 275 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,359 But I do really think empowering people to form their opinions 276 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,960 carefully rather than being buffeted left and right by all 277 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,680 the memes and the tweets and, and propaganda they're seeing 278 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,240 like that is a really important form of empowerment and 279 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,640 something that we're uniquely positioned to do. 280 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,760 So that's a role, that teaching role that but I, I guard very 281 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,920 closely. Do you worry as a teacher about 282 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,480 the impact of AI on what students are doing? 283 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:49,080 Oh obviously I think anybody who teaches is just complaining 284 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,920 endlessly about students writing essays with IAI cheating with 285 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,120 AII. Think so. 286 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,840 I'm not teaching this semester because I'm on dissertation 287 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,680 fellowship, but my colleagues are complaining about students 288 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,520 using AI to write their emails explaining why they can't come 289 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,720 to class. So. 290 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,080 What do you think is the impact on on on mind if you like of 291 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,280 using AI to form arguments, help you with writing you know, does 292 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,040 it stop you thinking for yourself? 293 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,880 Might it help you think? I, well, so I, I'm not a 294 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,920 Luddite, I'm really open to ways in which AI could make us more 295 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,600 effective teachers. And I think there's actually 296 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:36,640 enormous potential in the realm of digital academic culture to, 297 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,480 to use AI to make learning more accessible. 298 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,920 I think I, I've spoken to people at Duolingo and I think their 299 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,480 mission there, even, you know, whether you disagree with how 300 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,560 they're implementing it. I think that mission to use the 301 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,200 technological tools at our disposal to make learning free 302 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,360 and available to everybody. I think all of that is really 303 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,640 cool. So I don't want to, I don't want 304 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,680 to undercut all the cool work going on there. 305 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,400 I'll say what I can see in the classroom, the way that students 306 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,080 are actually using AI. It's not very controversial, 307 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,640 like every almost every teacher will agree with me. 308 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,840 It makes you a poor thinker. It makes you it's, it's 309 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,280 cognitively debilitating. It's not just the sort of 310 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:28,080 cognitive outsourcing. It doesn't just help you avoid 311 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,720 doing that hard work of articulating your own thoughts 312 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,320 and slowly forming an argument based on logical premises. 313 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,600 There's good evidence that it actually makes students less 314 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,480 confident and less they, they feel like, oh, if there's a 315 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,240 machine that can do all this thinking better than me, then 316 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,840 why should I ever learn how to, or why should I trust myself to 317 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,400 do this? And I think that is devastating. 318 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,280 But so so I what's? Your answer to that when people 319 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,760 say you know well because it's tempting to say, well, the 320 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,680 machine is better. Why? 321 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,400 Why is the machine not better necessarily? 322 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,120 Well, so let me let me circle back to that because I think 323 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:12,600 this is a huge structural issue that, you know, involves all the 324 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,920 ways in which higher education is already broken. 325 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,040 I don't think that you can answer it simply by saying don't 326 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,160 use AI in the classroom. I've made a little bit of fun of 327 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,400 the students who are using AI to cheat and write their essays and 328 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,840 e-mail, even e-mail their instructors. 329 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,400 But you also have to think from the students perspective, the 330 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,440 immense pressure they're under. Imagine, I mean, I've already 331 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:41,680 talked about how terrifyingly, how terrifying the burden of 332 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,000 tuition and student loans are. So imagine you've taken that 333 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,840 enormous gamble to study at an elite institution. 334 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,720 And also imagine the kind of job market that Gen. 335 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,560 Z ers are entering right now. There's, there's some evidence 336 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:01,320 that for, for American young men, having a college degree 337 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,040 doesn't affect the unemployment rate compared to people who 338 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,240 don't have a college degree. And that, I mean, that leads to 339 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,880 a whole host of social issues that we have to deal with. 340 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:15,560 So, so imagine that you're in this pressure environment where 341 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,520 you really just need an internship, you need that 342 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,160 perfect transcript, you need that GPA, and you need this to 343 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,280 pay off so that you can pay off for your loans and you can 344 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,640 support your family. So if I'm there, of course, I'm 345 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,440 looking for ways to cut corners. And if there's this tool that 346 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,040 can quickly write an essay for me when I'm not even convinced 347 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,120 of the learning outcome or the benefits of writing the essay 348 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:41,240 myself, like, of course I'm tempted to do that. 349 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,520 And I think it's insane to just expect that a whole country of 350 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,880 18 to 22 year olds should have this herculean self restraint 351 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,240 not to take the easy option when they are facing this terrifying 352 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,320 job environment. So that's the first thing. 353 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,840 Which means that the answer is not so simple as saying AI is 354 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,120 not going to make you a better thinker or proving to them that 355 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:09,320 they have to learn these skills. It it demands a total revolution 356 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,720 in how we think about education and, and how we do grading, how 357 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,560 we design our lesson plans. I think, and for a lot of 358 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,560 people, it's been a good wake up call. 359 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,920 Maybe this model of just assigning paper and paper after 360 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,200 paper every week without really scaffolding the skills that 361 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,320 students are supposed to be learning through writing those 362 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,120 papers. Maybe that grading model isn't 363 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:32,800 something that we should perpetuate. 364 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,080 Maybe we have to look at different ways of doing 365 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,760 assessments and different ways of communicating clearly with 366 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,960 our students. Like This is why I want you to 367 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,840 learn this skill. This is what I want you to 368 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,840 master. This is why AI isn't going to 369 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,640 help you do that. So that's all background context 370 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,360 to, to your quest, to the my really answer to your question 371 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,320 of like, can the machine do it better? 372 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,840 No, the machine can't do it better. 373 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,720 And the answers are going to differ depending on the field. 374 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,440 I'll just talk about creative writing and, and writing in 375 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,560 general because that's what I teach. 376 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,760 Writing is about communicating A subjective experience from your 377 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,360 skull, this inaccessible part of you, your consciousness to 378 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:16,880 another person. Before you can do that, you have 379 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,680 to decide what you think. And then you have to figure out 380 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,000 if there are good grounds for what you think. 381 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,680 So you have to work through the logic of your argument and work 382 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,880 through what forms of evidence do I have to make this argument. 383 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,440 And then you have to articulate it in a way that is clear and 384 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:37,080 concise and, and, and legible to somebody who is not you, who 385 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,240 doesn't have access to your senses, impressions and biases, 386 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,360 etcetera. This is all work that AI cannot 387 00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:46,360 approximate. It will just tell you what lots 388 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:51,120 of other people have thought on this topic and assemble a 389 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,240 response that looks passively human. 390 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,280 But now you've sidestepped the all of the important work of, of 391 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,400 figuring out your position on an issue and, and what you want to 392 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,840 get across to another person. So if you're doing that for all 393 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,200 of your writing, then you're not even really a person anymore. 394 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,160 You're just, I don't know, a chimp pressing buttons in the 395 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,960 realm of creative writing. I think so there's been all 396 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,480 this, there are all these start-ups trying to to push like 397 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,160 AI products to either assist in writing fiction or replace 398 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,720 fiction writers altogether. I think none, none of that has 399 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,880 taken off because people just don't want to read AI generated 400 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,480 work. They I think we read again to 401 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,360 understand how the world looks to somebody who is not us. 402 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:43,720 We don't just read for content. I think the the idea that AI 403 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,120 could produce good literature is such a condescending attitude to 404 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,880 to what people read for. It's like people are are happy 405 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,440 to look at machine produced drivel that just hits the same 406 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,520 tropes over and over again. Almost nobody is reading for 407 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,080 that. And we think about literary 408 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,520 innovation. That's the main thing that large 409 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,040 language models cannot do because it's it's baked into 410 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,800 their design. They're good at approximating 411 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,640 what other, you know, the styles in which other people have 412 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,240 written before. But the authors that get us most 413 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,120 excited that I think revolutionized literature are 414 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:22,720 the ones who are always pushing the boundaries and stretching 415 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,000 the rules of the English language and, and coming up with 416 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,440 new ways to articulate an emotion or an experience. 417 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,280 So AI couldn't have done for English what Shakespeare did. 418 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,040 It couldn't do what Vladimir Nabokov did. 419 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,680 He came to English after a lifetime of writing in Russian. 420 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,680 So his English doesn't sound like anybody else's. 421 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,400 His precise word combinations, the way in which he's playing 422 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,560 and experimenting with the sounds, that's that's totally 423 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,840 unprecedented. There's nothing in the corpus 424 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,160 that could produce another Nabokov. 425 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,400 You could produce a really shoddy, gross Nabokov now, but 426 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,080 that's not what we write for. We write for different ways to 427 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,800 capture the, you know, our rapidly changing environments we 428 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,240 find ourselves in. Let's talk about your writing 429 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,360 then. It's taken a long time to get 430 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:15,040 there. I mean, you pack an awful lot in 431 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,440 to your to your writing in terms of ideas. 432 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,880 And you are prolific. You know, you've had five books. 433 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,360 Is it already? I think 7th is coming out next. 434 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:28,840 The 7th is coming out next year, so it's six out already. 435 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,120 What do you get yourself from writing? 436 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,720 It's really just a compulsion for me. 437 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,400 It's the way I make sense of the world's. 438 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:46,760 I've always been a storyteller. When I was a child, I'm an older 439 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,480 sister. My little sister's three years 440 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,480 younger than me. So I was always spinning tales 441 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,440 to her about like the midnight train, for instance. 442 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840 We, we slept in the same bedroom and I would tell her in the 443 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,400 dark, our, our bedroom has been lifted, shifted onto a train 444 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,160 carriage. And it's a bit like the 445 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,280 plagiarism of The Polar Express. Now, now we're going on this 446 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,680 magical adventure and all sorts of things are happening outside 447 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:17,440 the train. So I think I like, I ever since 448 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,240 I, I can remember being literate, I've just always spun 449 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,560 narratives to make sense of what's going on around me. 450 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:33,280 And I think I continue to write to create a record of who I am 451 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,680 at every point in my life. And every time I go through some 452 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,920 major life transition, every time I grieve something or every 453 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,200 time I I transform because I'm an experience that always leads 454 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,960 to a story. It's a set of questions that I 455 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,040 now find myself grappling with. And the only way I can write 456 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,880 myself towards an answer is by constructing a tail around it. 457 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,400 And I find, but I never really write my way to an answer. 458 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,240 I just write myself to more questions. 459 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,680 But at least the act of investing different characters 460 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,000 with different ideologies and and splitting my own psyche that 461 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,480 is at war with itself into different people who will have 462 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,840 those arguments out loud on the page, I I find that really 463 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,680 helpful for figuring out the world for myself. 464 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,240 Does it help you get to your own position on what you think about 465 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,560 these things? It I think. 466 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,600 What do you already know that when you're writing? 467 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,080 I almost I I always start writing with a question. 468 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,880 I never really know what I think until I start throwing 469 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,440 characters and scenarios. And again, I don't think it. 470 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,880 I don't think it makes any of the questions clearer to me, it 471 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,440 just helps me understand the depth of them. 472 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,160 So Yellow Face, which obviously got an awful lot of publicity 473 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,240 and debate and sparked a lot of debate. 474 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,640 It's quite different really to your other books, isn't it? 475 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,640 And it was conceived differently as well. 476 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,560 Why do you think that happened that way and how do you feel 477 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,280 about it when you look at your body of work I. 478 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,600 Think all my books are quite different from each other, with 479 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,920 the exception of the Poppy Wars trilogy. 480 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,760 Everything I hope reads like it could have been written by an 481 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,000 entirely different author. And I think that's just because 482 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,200 nobody stays the same person between the ages of 19 and 29. 483 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,160 You go through so many life changes. 484 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,880 I graduated college, I moved to England, I moved back to the USI 485 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,360 got married, I started my PhD program, I started teaching and. 486 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,160 And all of these transitions led me to have a totally different 487 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,560 set of ethical and aesthetic interests. 488 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,840 So. So I don't actually find 489 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,800 Yellowface that unique in that way. 490 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,920 It was a major departure in that it was my first novel written in 491 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,400 a more contemporary setting and about the Internet. 492 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,840 And the obvious answer for that is I was living on the Internet 493 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,520 in 2021, which is when I started drafting that book. 494 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,720 I think a lot of us were living on the Internet because that 495 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,240 was, that was lockdown era, that was. 496 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,720 Do you see it as your COVID novel? 497 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,840 It's absolutely my COVID novel, and it's responding specifically 498 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,640 to this moment in time when we were all so chronically online. 499 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,760 It's like we lived in that bubble of we we lived in the 500 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,920 tweet. And another book that I think 501 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,200 really captures this is Patricia Lockwood's. 502 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,280 No one is talking about this, so I recommend that every chance I 503 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,720 get. But for me, it was a way of 504 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,080 grappling with how being chronicling on that lion had 505 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,600 altered my brain chemistry. I I was thinking in the language 506 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,760 of the tweet, right? I found that my attention span 507 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,720 was completely corroded. I had all these grand ambitions 508 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,120 for going into lockdown. I thought, I'm going to read all 509 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,600 the classics, I'm going to teach myself 5 languages. 510 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,600 I have no social obligations. So I'm, I'm going to gain all 511 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,920 these skills. And instead I just looked at 512 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:17,560 memes all day and I found like that that 280 word limits and 513 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,240 the, the rhetorical devices of the viral tweets like really 514 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,760 became ingrained in how I thought because there's actually 515 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,440 such an art to the viral tweet. You have to present an issue, 516 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,080 you have to take inflammatory side on it, you have to deliver 517 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,360 a punchline and you have to provoke further engagement all 518 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,880 in a fraction of a second. So it's a very successful form 519 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,560 of writing and it's one that I try to replicate in almost every 520 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,240 sentence of Yellowface. It is, however, a form of 521 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,600 writing I find myself totally allergic to now. 522 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,120 So there will never be a sequel to Yellowface I'm I'm done with 523 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,080 the chronically online period of my life. 524 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,760 When it comes to the the the basic arguments in yellowface, 525 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,120 have have your views changed at all? 526 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,800 I mean, you're a free speech purist I suppose. 527 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,800 So you I presume you don't think there are things that anybody 528 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,120 shouldn't write about? I I think my views on this are 529 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,240 pretty consistent. As a scholar and as a writer. 530 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,080 I think there should be nothing untouchable in the classroom or 531 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,480 in the creative space. I think the moment you start 532 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,760 like whether out of authoritarian censorship or 533 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,680 well-intentioned some cultural guidelines, the moment you start 534 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,520 creating rules about who gets to talk about what, or what the 535 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,360 appropriate ways to talk about issues are, then you're lost. 536 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,040 Because these rules are always arbitrary. 537 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,680 They always serve some kind of ideology and they they just 538 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,640 preclude like all sorts of daring experimentation and risk 539 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,640 taking that that we need authors to embark on. 540 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,640 And I think, you know, it's absolutely possible to tackle a 541 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,440 project and fall flat on your face and, and do it terribly 542 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,720 right and and to do it offensively and lazily. 543 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,640 But if an artist does that, it's on the merits of the work it's 544 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,080 on. It's it's because they didn't do 545 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,000 it well, not because they never should have attempted in SO. 546 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,920 We shouldn't worry about cultural appropriation. 547 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,360 I think there's it's absolutely grounds for critique of cultural 548 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,840 appropriation, but not in the sense that you could say these 549 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,920 topics are untouchable from anyone who hasn't had that lived 550 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,280 experience or comes from this community. 551 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,800 Because then then you exclude the possibility that people do 552 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,720 their research, that they collaborate, that they listen to 553 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,680 each other. And art is all about trying to 554 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,320 escape your own subjectivity. If you could only do work that 555 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,520 you had personal experience with, then we would all be 556 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,960 writing autobiographies. And I think that would be so 557 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,240 boring. Did did writing The Other Face 558 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,800 have also have anything to do with the conversation around 559 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,360 China at the time during the pandemic and the attacks that 560 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,400 were going on on Chinese people in America? 561 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,040 And you know that, that whole conversation. 562 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,080 Yeah, absolutely. I think there was a big uptick 563 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:22,880 in anti Asian and anti Chinese sentiment and it was startling 564 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,320 to see the speed at which these sort of 19th century really 565 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,520 tropes about Chinese people, you know, being disease ridden and 566 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,600 filthy and and ugly immigrants who are just bringing 567 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,000 pestilence. It was it was starting to see 568 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,400 how quickly they became recycled and reused in a 21st century 569 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,840 context. So that was certainly on my mind 570 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,639 when I was writing the book. And, and how, how do you, how do 571 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:53,639 you feel about your identity now given what you fear about 572 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:58,240 America? I mean, are you, are you, you 573 00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:00,080 know, are you happy to be American? 574 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:10,400 I, I think I am back when the election was happening and 575 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,600 really the, in the weeks after the results came in, a lot of 576 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,280 people were talking about fleeing the country and mostly 577 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,000 in jest, you know, this fantasy of, oh, maybe we really should 578 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,240 get out. And, you know, the thought 579 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,280 crossed my mind. But over the last few months, I 580 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,080 felt more American than ever before. 581 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,520 I quite, I feel quite possessive and territorial of this country 582 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:43,280 because this is my home too. And if everybody who's 583 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,120 privileged enough to leave just leaves, then there's nobody left 584 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:53,360 to defend the people who can't. I also something that really 585 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,880 affected me was in August, I, I did this cross country tour for 586 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,360 Catavasis and my publicist pretty deliberately sent me to 587 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,200 cities that I typically don't have or yeah, haven't done a lot 588 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,480 of events in that people don't always send authors to because 589 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,000 their stereotype does not having a large reading culture. 590 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:23,040 So I was in the South and in the Midwest and a lot of American 591 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,920 cities that I think it culturally overlooked. 592 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:32,400 And I was talking to packed crowds of really dedicated, 593 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,200 dedicated and enthusiastic leaders. 594 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,480 So talking to those people and seeing the kind of love and 595 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:47,200 enthusiasm for for difference and eagerness to share with 596 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,360 cultural diversity and people and, and you know, the, the care 597 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,600 that comes from that, seeing that all over the US made me 598 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,320 realize, you know, like that's, that's America too. 599 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,440 And I feel very much the part of that and and yeah, it's not the 600 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,280 part of America that's in power right now, but it's not gone and 601 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:09,320 identify with that very closely. So can you tell me about the new 602 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,440 book Catabasis? So Catabasis is a return to 603 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,960 fantasy for me. It's about two PhD students, 604 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,680 Alice and Peter, who decide to journey to hell to rescue their 605 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:26,120 advisor who's died in a freak magic accident, and they are 606 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,160 trying to rescue his soul from eternal damnation so that he can 607 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,200 write them recommendation letters so that they can get 608 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,480 jobs on the very competitive job market for tenant track 609 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,480 positions and magic. Who's that book for? 610 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,000 Who who? Who's going to love it? 611 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:47,600 I think it's for anybody who who loves logic puzzles. 612 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:53,000 I think a core tenet of the book is paradoxes of rational 613 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,400 decision making. How can you make a set of 614 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,400 decisions that you thought were strictly going to leave you 615 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,040 better off and suddenly look around and find yourself at the 616 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,960 bottom of a pit? Which I think is a good metaphor 617 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,640 for being a PhD student. So I, so I think it appeals most 618 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,920 directly to to somebody who loves logic and has the 619 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,760 experience of embarking on an academic journey for the love of 620 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,080 the material, for the, the love of that subject, only to have 621 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,720 that dream kind of crushed out of them at every turn because of 622 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:33,160 all the bureaucratic idiocy that pervades the modern Academy, 623 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,000 which we've talked about a little bit. 624 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,720 And I think there's so many people holding on to that dream 625 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:41,920 that there can be the space where you just get to research, 626 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,960 you just get to share your findings with the world. 627 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,760 You just get to celebrate the that discovery and the process 628 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,040 of discovery. But the problem is that almost 629 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,200 everything about the modern Academy is designed to crush 630 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,720 that spark. I mean, you obviously pack an 631 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,800 awful lot into your life. You're able to write and teach 632 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,680 and do a PhD, although you're not teaching at the moment. 633 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,440 Do you think you will continue that kind of balance in your 634 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:09,320 life? I mean, you're obviously 635 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,440 passionate about higher education and university. 636 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:19,840 Did you want to go back to teaching as you continue with 637 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,320 your books in the future after your PhD? 638 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,360 I'm a teacher. I, I think I would be really 639 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,160 unhappy writing full time. I've gotten a taste of what that 640 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,320 feels like this year because it's it's the first year in a 641 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,880 long time in which I'm not taking classes or teaching 642 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,400 classes. I have no department to go into. 643 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,800 I, I moved to Boston to, to live with my husband. 644 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,840 So I'm a couple of hours away from my institution and it's 645 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,920 driving me crazy. It's writing is already such a 646 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,400 solid system, sick activity. It, it feels selfish in a lot of 647 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,200 ways. And I, I need that 648 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,160 counterbalance of being able to step into the classroom and 649 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,280 working with other people and helping others articulate their 650 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,080 own ideas and becoming more competent thinkers. 651 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,960 And I in whatever form I, I need that in some way in my life. 652 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,160 So yeah, I, you know, the job Mark is terrible right now. 653 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,720 There may not be institutions of higher education come 5-10 654 00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:23,600 years, but. I'm I'm exaggerating but but if 655 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,480 there are and the positions are available, then I plan to be a 656 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,760 professor do. You think it is existential? 657 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,520 Really. I mean, do you worry that it is? 658 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:38,360 I think, well, I think some form of the Academy will always 659 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,480 persist in some way. It, it is a luxury good and 660 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,160 people like luxury goods. So I think there always will be 661 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:50,360 this amusement park experience where wealthy families can send 662 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,040 their kids to get the full college experience. 663 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,640 I I think that's not going away, but I think the Academy as this 664 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,720 like temple of academic freedom, of pure discovery and something 665 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,720 that really shares its knowledge with the world instead of 666 00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:11,680 keeping it within locked gates, I think that is existentially at 667 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,520 risk. Rebecca Kwang, thank you very 668 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,200 much indeed. Thank you for coming in. 669 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:16,640 It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 670 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,120 And that's it. You can watch all of these 671 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,520 interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. 672 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:22,920 Until next time, bye bye.