1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,240 I found teenage at a much more stressful than old age. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,720 Can you remember when you were a teenager that was really 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,080 stressful. You were quarreling with this. 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:08,600 I was quarreling with my parents. 5 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:10,480 I was in love with the wrong people. 6 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,440 I didn't know where I was going. When you're young, you spend a 7 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,440 lot of time worrying about what people will think. 8 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,320 I do sometimes look at myself in the mirror and think, honestly, 9 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,880 this is too much. You've got, you know, you've got 10 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,680 orange earrings the size of tennis balls on your ears. 11 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:25,400 You've got these ridiculous glasses. 12 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,040 What is old? I don't know what OLD is, except 13 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:35,160 that it's liberating. Hello and welcome to Ways to 14 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,440 Change the World. I'm Christian Guru Murthy, and 15 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,080 this is the podcast where we talk to extraordinary people 16 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,800 about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have 17 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,200 helped shape them. My guest today is known to 18 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,120 1,000,000 as a judge on The Great British Bake Off. 19 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,680 But Prue Leaf influence stretches far beyond television, 20 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,000 from founding A prestigious cookery school and building a 21 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,360 Michelin starred restaurant to shaping national conversations 22 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,080 around food, education and public health. 23 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,280 In her latest book, Being Old and Learning to Love It, she 24 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,520 turns her attention to ageing, writing candidly about life in 25 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,560 her 80s. From love and loss to staying 26 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,640 relevant and what it really means to grow older. 27 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,840 Well, Prue, welcome. We we begin this conversation 28 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,760 usually with a question, which is if you could change the world 29 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:24,480 in any way, how would you change it? 30 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,320 Simple, I would make sure that every child at school learnt to 31 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:34,880 cook healthily and learnt to eat it, so that they'd prepare it 32 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,600 and eat it and they'd end up loving healthy food. 33 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,720 And if they we could do that to a single generation of children, 34 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,520 they would grow up liking healthy food and therefore 35 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,440 eating it by choice. And they teach their children 36 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,280 that way. And we'd solve the obesity 37 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:53,120 problem, I mean. You. 38 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,600 You've been involved with with Jamie's campaigns as well, 39 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,160 haven't you? Lots of campaigns. 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,200 I mean, this has been talked about for quite a long time now. 41 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,440 I mean, is it just cost? Do you think that means we don't 42 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:05,960 do it? People think it's cost, but 43 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,240 there are two things recently that have happened that will, 44 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,039 will, will change it. And I really believe if this 45 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:13,760 government sticks to what it says and the next government 46 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,920 follows suit, we could actually see some change. 47 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,200 First of all, the government has now set standards for food in 48 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,360 schools, so you can't give children nothing but deep fried 49 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,840 food and sweet things. So that's one great thing. 50 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,880 It puzzles me that it's taking them seven years to implement 51 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:30,920 it. I think they could do it 52 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,280 overnight because it's not huge changes. 53 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,040 You're not asking children to eat horrible food anyway, so the 54 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,520 food's going to be better. And the other thing is that 55 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,440 there's a, a company which I have to quickly declare an 56 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,080 interest, which is Leith School of Food and Wine. 57 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Leith Education is now not, it's not mine at all. 58 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,480 But they have decided to spend all the money they make on 59 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,920 giving free cookery lessons to primary school children in the 60 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:04,600 state sector. So any school that doesn't have, 61 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,360 doesn't charge fees can apply to have it. 62 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:14,000 And what it is, is a really good screen with a curriculum and a 63 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,680 teacher who's one of our chefs who is so charismatic that kids 64 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,040 do exactly what they're told. And all you need in primary 65 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,280 school is a table and very simple equipment and very cheap 66 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,760 ingredients. And they will learn to cook for 67 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,080 nothing and. And how? 68 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,160 How healthy is your own diet? How healthy? 69 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,520 How? Healthy is your own diet. 70 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,200 Oh, it's it's well, except that I drink too much. 71 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:42,240 Yeah, no, I, I eat really healthily and I, I, I always 72 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,760 cook from scratch. I don't take, I don't do any 73 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,240 rules like avoiding carbs or, or, you know, measuring 74 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,600 anything. I just make sure I'd eat, you 75 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,680 know, eat the rainbow, lots of different colored veg and stuff 76 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,120 and change and eat a lot of different things. 77 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,840 I mean. You know, in your most recent, 78 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,960 you know, big famous incarnation, you've been 79 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,960 associated with bakery. With cake Cakes, yeah, they're 80 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,120 well and. You know, and obviously your 81 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,040 food life, you know, is, is, is, is very, very broad and diverse, 82 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:15,320 but that's what people think of you. 83 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,519 When people think of prude leaf, they probably think of cake. 84 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,760 They probably and and and. That is fundamentally unhealthy 85 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,000 eating, isn't it? If you if you eat nothing but 86 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,560 cake, of course it's unhealthy. But a piece of cake every three 87 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,800 days with. But it isn't sugar the thing 88 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,680 that we've got to change people's attitudes towards, you 89 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,960 know, from a, from a treat to something that's actually really 90 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,880 bad for me. For you, in a broad sense, we 91 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,400 should eat much less sugar, but I don't think that I I actually 92 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,800 think baking is a terrific way into cooking. 93 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,000 And once children's get interested in cooking or people 94 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,920 get interested in cooking might, it probably will start with a 95 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,040 brownie or, you know, banana bread or something. 96 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,920 You say we'll probably start with something sweet. 97 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,240 But once they get good at it and interested in it, they will 98 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,120 start thinking about what's going into their bodies and 99 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,160 we're interested in food. And then you start thinking, oh 100 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,640 you know, veg is not so bad. So you, I mean, I speak as a 101 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,240 parent, I suppose, which is that, you know, as we, when we 102 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,400 teach our kids how to bake brownies and cakes and all the 103 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,280 rest of it, we give them the sweet tooth. 104 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,320 Well, if you if you give them too much of it, but you know, 105 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,880 you don't have to give them nothing but sweet things to 106 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,440 cook. I mean, it's, it's much more 107 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,320 satisfactory to make bread. I mean, children love making 108 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,560 bread because it's magic. I mean, the fact that yeast 109 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,360 grows is just so addictive. They love doing it. 110 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,960 And if you haven't got time to make bread, then what about 111 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,160 scones? What about you can do all sorts 112 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,640 of things that don't have sugar? And as as you've got older, have 113 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,880 you, have you improved your diet? 114 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,160 You know, do you eat deliberately healthily now 115 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,440 because you're in your 80s? Or do you just eat the same way 116 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,920 you always have? No, I just eat less, I suppose 117 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,640 now because I'm, I suppose I, I need less, I sleep more, so I 118 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,640 need, I need less food. But I have never, I mean, I, I 119 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,680 have over my long life, I've been on all sorts of diets 120 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,000 because I'm, I don't know a woman who doesn't think she 121 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,360 needs to lose a lose a stone. I've always wanted to lose a 122 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,080 stone. So every now and again I've 123 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,920 tried recently, I've given up trying to lose a stone and I 124 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,280 stay pretty well the same weight all the time. 125 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,160 And I I eat just I did eat what I want. 126 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,720 So I have this argument with my mum because she she says, well 127 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,120 I'm so old now that I just want to eat whatever I want and that 128 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,720 she's got an incredibly sweet tooth. 129 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,000 So she just eats loads of really, really bad things. 130 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,560 And I keep trying to say yes, but she says, well, I'm going to 131 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,680 die soon anyway. I said but you, but you don't 132 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,280 want to die because you've been eating terrible things. 133 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,720 Yeah, well, I think it's a balance, isn't it? 134 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,840 I mean, you don't want to make her life miserable if she does, 135 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,280 if she's only like sweet food. But it is a mistake to eat 136 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:51,640 nothing but sweet food. Of course it is. 137 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,680 You know, your body is not built to cope with that much sugar. 138 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,880 My husband did the weight loss jabs and he is still on them. 139 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,000 He he lost 2 1/2 stone and he looks absolutely great. 140 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,120 It didn't affect his appetite. He is still, I mean, he eats 141 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:06,880 much. Unusual. 142 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,680 But it it did affect it in the sense that he doesn't want to 143 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,880 eat so much, but he does still enjoy. 144 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,680 His enjoys the food. Yes, because you tried them as 145 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,040 well. I was hopeless, but then I 146 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,920 didn't obey the rules. I just took, I just had the jabs 147 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,720 and I didn't do what you're supposed to do, which is eat a 148 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,080 lot of protein and, and make sure you have 1500 calories a 149 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:29,840 day. I was having about 200 calories, 150 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,280 which is a starvation diet. And so my body just sort of shut 151 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:34,880 down and said, well, I'm not losing a pound. 152 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,120 So I lost nothing. I lost nothing in about 3 weeks 153 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,680 of taking the damn jabs. And did you, did you take them 154 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,160 while you were on Bake Off? What was it? 155 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,400 No, no, no. Since I left and I and, and 156 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,000 really it was ridiculous. It was just because it was 157 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,280 working so well for my husband. I thought, Oh well, I've always 158 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:53,760 wanted to lose a stone, I'll have a go. 159 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,920 And I didn't. I didn't do it right. 160 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,720 I didn't read the rules. Yes. 161 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,920 But then I so I stopped and I felt so much better without 162 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,200 them. So now I've just given up. 163 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,160 Now let's talk about the book being old and learning to love 164 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,360 it. Why have you done? 165 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,320 It's a sort of a series of sort of rants. 166 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,120 Rants. Yes, I'm. 167 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,280 Afraid it is a series of rants. It's actually I, because I got 168 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,000 so irritated with people going on in a sympathetic way about 169 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,600 how terrible it, isn't it dreadful being old? 170 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,400 And I thought, no, it's great. I mean, I really enjoying it. 171 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,040 You have more time to do what you really like. 172 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,760 It's accepted that you can have a sleep in the afternoon. 173 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,960 I actually have my Pru's snooze written into my call sheet when 174 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,240 I'm on television because I like to have enough in the afternoon. 175 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,120 I could never have done that years ago. 176 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,240 And and also there's great advantages to being old. 177 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,720 You know, you don't care what people think so much. 178 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,400 So that's great. Do you think I will know 179 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,920 Whatever? But but what? 180 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,760 What is old? Define old. 181 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,040 Exactly. I don't know what old is because 182 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,000 I mean, except that it's liberating. 183 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,840 I mean, you, you get to an age, let's say 70 or 75, in my case, 184 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:11,320 8586, I'm 86 now where it is liberating because you just 185 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,640 think you don't care and you do what you want and you pick the 186 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,480 jobs you want. I mean, I've just had lived such 187 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,040 a lucky lot. I, I and I absolutely accept 188 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,640 that lots of people have a horrible old age and a lot of 189 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,920 people are unhappy or lonely or oh and not well. 190 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,400 But I have been just extraordinarily lucky and I'm 191 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,560 extremely well. I'm very happy and I'm having a 192 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:33,520 great time. Yeah. 193 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,720 I mean, all all of these supposed downsides to getting 194 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,400 old are things that you basically address. 195 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,680 But but I mean, is it that you are just very lucky and very 196 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:45,680 unusual and in a position where you've been incredibly 197 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:47,920 successful? You've been, you know, you're a 198 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,840 brilliant businesswoman and you're at now at a stage in your 199 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,280 later life where you have. I'm old. 200 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,560 Blind. I'm old, yeah. 201 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,400 But what I mean is like, you know, you can do what you want. 202 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,840 You've got you've made your money, you're happy, you're in a 203 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,960 relationship. You are the poster Graham. 204 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,880 Poster Graham, Yeah. I like the poster. 205 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,240 For for happy old age. I agree. 206 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,200 How? How repeatable is it for most 207 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,560 people? Oh, I agree, it's must be 208 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,120 extremely irritating to have somebody preaching about how 209 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,600 lovely old age is if you're if you're old age is not like that. 210 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,160 But I do think that there's AI mean I I don't want this to 211 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,080 sound like a self help book anyway. 212 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,880 It's just, it's just as you say it's, it's my opinion of of 213 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,920 various things, like for example exercise I enjoyed. 214 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,640 This bit. How exercise has saved me Do you 215 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,760 want? You know what my advice about 216 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,560 exercise is? Don't do it. 217 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,120 It's so boring and it takes so much time. 218 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,000 Just forget it. So I don't do any exercise. 219 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,080 Well, especially if you haven't done exercise all your life. 220 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,160 That's why. That's why men drop dead on the 221 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,240 golf course and things like that. 222 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,320 Isn't it Yes, suddenly start doing it. 223 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,600 But also I think, I mean, I suppose I'm quite active anyway. 224 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,440 I mean, I walk around a lot and I cook a lot and you walk around 225 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,440 the kitchen a lot. I think if if I was measuring 226 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,000 steps, I'd be probably, I don't think I'm doing 10,000 steps. 227 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,840 I'm probably doing 5000, which is probably quite enough for my 228 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,800 ancient age. But physically do you, I mean, 229 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,520 you know, you obviously we all feel, I feel I'm 56 and I feel 230 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,160 the effects of age. So you must feel that you can't 231 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,960 do things now that you used to be able to do 10/15/20 years 232 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,320 ago. My heart rather sinks when 233 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,200 somebody says to me, we'll take the stairs and I think, isn't 234 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,720 there a lift? But I do take the stairs. 235 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,520 But but how? So how do you make sure that 236 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,480 doesn't bother you or get you down, which it does for many 237 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:48,840 people? Because they go like, you know, 238 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,040 I hate the fact that my body's giving up on me. 239 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,320 No, what's the point of hating it? 240 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:57,520 I mean, you're not going to change it. 241 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,240 I'm a great believer in looking forwards, not back. 242 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,360 I mean, people shouldn't keen about what they've lost. 243 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,600 They should be happy about what they've got. 244 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,320 And you know, I don't want to sound as I'm preaching anyway. 245 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,120 I'm just saying what what I actually very lucky. 246 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:18,160 I do accept that it's, it's 90% luck and I have been lucky in 247 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,960 all my life. And I'm still tremendously lucky 248 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,600 because as you say, I'm, you know, I'm in love with my 249 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,080 husband. I've had two happy marriages. 250 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,040 My, my children are healthy, my grandchildren are healthy. 251 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,120 I've got enough money. I don't have to work, but I love 252 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,960 work, so I do. So I could not be lucky. 253 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,280 I, I, I do accept that. But, you know, some people are 254 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,760 just determined to be miserable. I think just occasionally you 255 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,040 want to say, and I get crossed with old people who are 256 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,920 ungracious about being helped. You know, if somebody, my mum 257 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,960 when we were little would be very strict about teaching us to 258 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,280 be nice to old people, you know, we hope open the door for all 259 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,000 ladies and open the door for anybody who's older than you and 260 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,240 pick up their bag and carry things for them and so on. 261 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:13,760 But when she got old and I would pick up her bag, she'd say, I 262 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,040 can manage in a very indignant voice. 263 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,000 Or she'd say, if you open the door first, she'd say, you know, 264 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:26,000 I, I can do that. Or I saw a woman on the tube, a 265 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,880 young man, rather shy around the mother stood up and asked her if 266 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,840 she would like a seat. You know, she'll agree, her 267 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,160 little lady. And she's looked at him 268 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,280 indignant. And she said, what are you 269 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,360 doing? She said, do you think I'm old 270 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,080 or something? And the poor fellow will never, 271 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,800 ever give anybody a seat again. I think sometimes old people are 272 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,760 their own worst enemy. And and do you think old needs 273 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,400 to be reclaimed as a positive thing? 274 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,880 I mean, as you say, when if you call someone old it's an insult. 275 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,200 And well, when I wanted to call that book being old, which is 276 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,240 what is it is called, my publisher said, oh, we can't 277 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,440 call it being old. Old is such a negative word. 278 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,440 And I said, why is it negative? You know, old age is no more 279 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,920 stressful for most of us than can you remember when you were a 280 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,280 teenager, teenager that was really stressful. 281 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,040 You were quarreling with this. I was quarreling with my 282 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,960 parents. I was in love with the wrong 283 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,160 people. I didn't know where I was going. 284 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,320 I mean, I found teenage much more stressful than old age. 285 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,520 And you know, for different stages of life have their 286 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,680 stresses and strains and old age is no different. 287 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,920 Anyway, I said it was going to be called being old. 288 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,880 They said it has to be being older because that softens it. 289 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,120 It's just be that's mealy mouthed so silly. 290 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,040 So it's called being old and learning to love it. 291 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,840 That's that's that's their phrase to make it look softer. 292 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,200 I. Mean you, you, you do address in 293 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,360 it, you know the whole the all the questions about health, 294 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,880 dementia, yeah, which you've got experience of again with your 295 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:56,960 mother. Yes, my mum. 296 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,720 My mum was away with the fairies for many, many years. 297 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,000 Yeah, that's, that's a tricky one because I I was giving a 298 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,360 talk about the book to some literary festival and a woman in 299 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,960 the audience stood up and said she was really offended and hurt 300 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,400 by the fact that I had used phrases like being away with the 301 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,880 fairies or going do Lally or bonkers or something. 302 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,440 But those are the words that we all use and so I had used them 303 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,480 in the book and actually I mean it quite affectionately because 304 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,240 I adored my mother. But she was absolutely nuts by 305 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,880 the end. And I mean so much but but she 306 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,920 gave us some amazing laughs. For example, one day, which on 307 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,440 her 80th birthday, we took her out to lunch and she'd been a 308 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,480 vegetarian for 40 years. So I had got chosen a restaurant 309 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,080 with a vegetarian menu and a carnival menu because my 310 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:56,280 brothers both were meat eaters. So I got the vegetarian menu, 311 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,600 gave it to my mum and she read it and she said this is all 312 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,000 vegetarian stuff. She said I don't want to, What's 313 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:02,880 this? Why are you giving me a 314 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,680 vegetarian menu? And I said, mum, you've been a 315 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,120 vegetarian 40 years. She's absolute nonsense, 316 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,160 darling. She said I'm I don't want 317 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,560 anything to do with those sandaled, greeny, freaky people. 318 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,640 She said. She said give me a steak. 319 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,080 And we gave her a steak and, yeah, loved it. 320 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,840 You know, there's some logic, some sort of daft logic still in 321 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,720 people's heads that is lovely. But. 322 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,320 But with our ageing population, people living longer, more of 323 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,240 these issues being more common, you know, we, you know, care 324 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,480 being one of the biggest issues, but we also have people like 325 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,440 you, you know, people with money, people who are healthy. 326 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,840 We're, we're still not tailored towards, you know, an older 327 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,560 Society of reasonably healthy old people who've got money to 328 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,040 spend, are we? I mean, you've kind of, you've 329 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,920 kind of got round the deficiencies by doing it all 330 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,280 yourself. So you know, you've become 331 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,359 famous for your clothes, you're famous for your glasses, you've 332 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:13,359 got your own range now. But but our consumer society, if 333 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,599 you like, is still all geared towards younger spenders. 334 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:16,960 Isn't it? Yes, it is, which is pretty 335 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,160 irritating. I mean, I think it's changing 336 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,000 though, because older people are older. 337 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,359 And I just said older than older people are beginning to wear 338 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,960 bright clothes. And I often have people say to 339 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,160 me, you know, you're so brave because you wear orange and red 340 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,280 and so on. I would love to. 341 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,800 I used to wear red when I was young, but now I've turned 50 or 342 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,840 60 or something, it's not appropriate and I want to bash 343 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,000 their heads. I mean, what do you mean it's 344 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,920 not appropriate? Old people need more help than 345 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,200 young people. If you're 25, you can dress in a 346 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,600 sack and you'll look absolutely lovely. 347 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,720 I mean, youth has its own beauty, doesn't it? 348 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,040 What However you think you look. If you're just young you look 349 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:05,560 great, but if you're old you need a bit of help and colour is 350 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,920 one of the ways to do that. But what would you say to 351 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,760 marketing people and big brands about who they're aiming their 352 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,120 money at? You know, do you, do you think 353 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:21,400 there is a big market of old people with money to spend who 354 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,640 would like to spend on? This Yeah. 355 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,080 I mean, my generation is, is the lucky generation that pretty 356 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,640 well did pretty well and and has money to spend. 357 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,400 And there are lots of us, you know, we're far more old people 358 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,760 than there are young people. So they're crazy if they don't 359 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,200 market to that to that group. But maybe the way is to market 360 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,560 through their children. Because the other thing that old 361 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,400 people often have is kind of feeling that they're that they 362 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,760 really shouldn't spend money on clothes because, you know, that 363 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,560 was this will see me out. I hear that phrase a lot. 364 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,040 I've got a very good coat and to see me out, I'd love a red one, 365 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,040 but you know, my black one is still perfectly good. 366 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,800 And it's, and, and there's something admirable about that 367 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,640 sort of putting up with things in a way. 368 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,440 But if it gives you real pleasure to have, I mean, I 369 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,360 think buying a yellow coat or a red coat and wearing it in the 370 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,280 winter is a positive mood lifter. 371 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,160 It just, it makes not only makes you feel happy to put it on, but 372 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,520 it makes other people happy to see you in it. 373 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,200 You know, people are lifted up by colour. 374 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,480 I mean, there's a reason we wear black at funerals. 375 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,960 It's 'cause we're miserable, yeah. 376 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,760 But I mean, you've also sort of got the opposite approach to to 377 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,080 many old people I know. And I'm thinking within my 378 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,160 family and my wife's family, which is what's become quite 379 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,240 fashionable is, is this whole death clearing thing, which is a 380 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,560 Scandinavian idea of people just getting rid of stuff. 381 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,120 You know, every time I go to my parents now, there's boxes of 382 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,680 stuff that, you know, they say, well, do you want this? 383 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,440 And well, why you get it? Why are you getting rid of it 384 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,480 now? We'll, we'll, we'll sort out 385 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,040 things when you're dead and gone. 386 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,720 Well, they're trying to save you from that. 387 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,960 Maybe, but but it does mean that their their life becomes very 388 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,120 very simple as they go old. But that may be, that may be 389 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,880 helpful because I often think I mean my heart. 390 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,040 My husband is a shopaholic. He can't stop buying stuff and 391 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,640 he buys lovely stuff and he's very good at it. 392 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,720 But my heart sometimes sinks because I think, you know, I 393 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,960 can't wear that many shirts because he buys all my clothes 394 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,240 and he'll come back. He buys your clothes. 395 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,760 He buys all my clothes. Yeah. 396 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,080 And jackets and everything and and I think I can't, you know, I 397 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,320 haven't got, I have not only have not got room on the rail 398 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,280 for them, but I haven't got days in the week to wear. 399 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,440 So I'm very lucky because he. Is that because he came from 400 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,960 fashion, so you've deferred to him on that or or or were you 401 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,760 never very interested in? Buying I could never bear 402 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,680 shopping. I mean, I hate, I mean, I've 403 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,840 always liked clothes but, and I've always liked colour, but 404 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,760 I've, what would mitigate against me bothering is that I 405 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,080 don't like shops. And, and I, I mean, it's the 406 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,080 worst thing in the world to go into a shop and to find 50 407 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,720 jackets you don't want, you know, and not, not one you do. 408 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,560 It's so depressing and it's a waste of your life. 409 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,640 John loves all that and he'll trawl through the Internet and 410 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,160 he, he, you know, he, he's been years in the fashion business. 411 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,160 So he, he, he control a shop very, very fast. 412 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,760 Whereas I get lost in things I don't want, you know? 413 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,360 You seem to be accumulating still quite a lot. 414 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,120 You know you've done your house relatively recently. 415 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,880 Yeah. I've. 416 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,840 Been doing some death clearing too, though. 417 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,200 You have, Well, yes, a bit because when you move house you 418 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,480 think this is the opportunity to get rid of a lot of stuff. 419 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,240 And we did in a sense, we downsized a lot. 420 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,920 We, we happened to then go and start building bonds and places 421 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,440 for the children to stay and so on. 422 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:57,160 So we've been building up again. But I actually did a huge clear 423 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,880 out four years ago and, and I still do. 424 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,680 I do. I have a friend who she, she has 425 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,080 a sort of every couple of months she does a charity auction, 426 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,400 football charity sale. And she absolutely loves me 427 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,960 because she gets lots of cast off, Bake Off clothes and cast 428 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,320 off my clothes and necklaces and lots and lots of stuff. 429 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,680 But I do have too much stuff. How What? 430 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,880 What is your advice for old people who want to still be able 431 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:40,520 to easily communicate and be friends with other generations? 432 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,360 Because I think that's one thing, again, that a lot of old 433 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,520 people struggle with. You know you can be a great 434 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,880 grandparent and have that relationship when children are 435 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:48,320 very. Young. 436 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,840 But when you're dealing with adults, there's a big there are 437 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,720 so many differences. You know, I think this is one of 438 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,680 the things we've really lost that society has lost this inter 439 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,280 generational thing. I do think it's hugely helpful 440 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,680 if you can make friends with your children, not just your 441 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,920 grandchildren, but your children in and and I mean, I know that 442 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,920 if I have my grandchildren, my children come to dinner with my 443 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,040 friends. They absolutely love it. 444 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,480 I mean, both, both of them love it. 445 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,440 They don't necessarily want to talk to me, but they're 446 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,960 interested in in my friends and my friends are very interested 447 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,840 in them because they're younger. And I think we, it's, I think 448 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,680 intergenerational. I love intergenerational 449 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,560 parties. For example, we have lots of 450 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,920 parties where one of John's mad purchases is he can't stop 451 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,720 buying small toys for children that are basically dangerous 452 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,840 toys. Little motorbikes or little quad 453 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,600 bikes or little tractors, and they all go like the clappers 454 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,600 and they're all real and if they have to wear body armour and a 455 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,480 hell. They're all the parents 456 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,080 nightmare. Yes, but you and so parents got 457 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,160 better look, but but they they absolutely love it and they go 458 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,680 roaring around the garden and they're actually they're quite 459 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,960 careful. And his point point is that you 460 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,880 it's better to teach a four year old to ride a bike than an 18 461 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,960 year old because the 18 year they're they're really 462 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760 dangerous. If they're really good rider at 463 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,200 4:00 and they keep riding all the time, they won't be showing 464 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,160 off at 16. Did did you grow up with that 465 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,040 kind of intergenerational conversation and mixing? 466 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,240 Is that how you were raised? Yes, yes, I think we had much 467 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,280 more intergenerational stuff going on, but mainly because 468 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,360 families lived closer to each other and so my uncles and and 469 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,520 aunts would come and their children. 470 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,760 And yeah, I think we did have more intergenerational, but I 471 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,600 don't know what we can do about it because modern life sort of 472 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,520 prevents it, doesn't it? Do you know? 473 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,480 Do you? Are you friends with your 474 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,440 children's friends? Yes. 475 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,600 I mean, my children are sort of 1820. 476 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,600 So yeah, we're sort of we're, we're at the stage where we can 477 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,560 get to know them a bit. And I grew up similarly with 478 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,960 everybody around the dining table of all ages treated pretty 479 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,520 equally and expected to dive in on the political chat and 480 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,400 whatever it was we were talking about. 481 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,320 So yeah. And, and I suppose that's an 482 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,240 Indian thing as well. Something that's very nice, 483 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,880 yeah. But I but I do think it's, you 484 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,440 know, that separate, we talk about loneliness a lot when it 485 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,040 comes to old people. And I think something happens 486 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:40,920 with that separates the generations values, different 487 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,080 interests are different. Just, you know, the, the the 488 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,480 style of chat and conversation is different. 489 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,400 And if you haven't, you know, you're part of popular culture. 490 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,640 And so it's easy for you, I suppose, to keep up with the way 491 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,200 everything is not Not all old people find that it is that 492 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,600 easy. Yeah, no, I do have, I, I agree 493 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:06,160 I'm lucky in, in access. But I'm, I mean, I've got quite 494 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,400 a few friends who are my children's age, certainly 495 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,960 nieces, 3 girls who are all, all nieces and I'm close to all of 496 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,000 them. And so they're now close to 497 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,760 John. And you know, we do mix them 498 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,920 ages, but not enough. And I think for old people, not 499 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,280 a lot of old people, the only contact they get with younger 500 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:37,920 people is their children and the nurse in the home who will be 18 501 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:43,680 and not speak very good English. I mean, the the issue it brings 502 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,760 us to the issue that you've become also very closely 503 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,760 associated with, which is assisted dying, which is sort of 504 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,840 surprising for somebody who who clearly loves life so much. 505 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,160 But that again comes from personal experience. 506 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,360 Yes. I mean, I'm, I'm in favour of 507 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,680 assisted dying for simply for compassionate reasons. 508 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,280 I think there are some time that for some people, and there are 509 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:11,040 few, they're not many, but there are people about 7000 a year in 510 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,360 NHS hospitals dying a miserable death and they want to die but 511 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,400 they can't because it's against the law to anybody to help them. 512 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,800 And it's perfectly, it's illogical anyway because it's 513 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,840 perfectly legal to commit suicide, but it's not legal to 514 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,480 help anybody commit suicide. So you're not allowed to help 515 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,360 somebody commit suicide and if they want to, so if they want 516 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,040 to, they're they're having to do it entirely on their own without 517 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,000 any, nobody holding their hand, nobody helping them or anything. 518 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,200 It has to be a really desperate suicide. 519 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,840 So I'm in favour of a sister dying. 520 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,320 I think the the people who are opposed to sister dying and my 521 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,880 MP son Daniel is one of them. Danny Kruger, we should say, for 522 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,560 people who haven't made that connection, yes, sorry. 523 00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,520 Danny. Yeah. 524 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,960 Danny Kruger. His argument is that it will be 525 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,920 too easy for vulnerable people to be made to feel that somehow 526 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,800 they ought to opt for assist to dying in order to give up their 527 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,120 bed to some more worthy person who will, and that old people 528 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,560 might be somehow shuffled out of life unwillingly. 529 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,880 But, you know, there's no evidence of this from countries 530 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,160 that have assisted dying. And they've been many studies, 531 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,720 including one by the House of Commons who sent delegates to 532 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,320 look. And they came back saying 533 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,480 there's no evidence of coercion. And there's no evidence of the 534 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,640 slippery slope, which is their other great fear that the law 535 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:47,360 will be passed very narrowly for just, let's say, people who are 536 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,240 within six months of dying, who are mentally competent, who so 537 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,600 you so would you wouldn't be able to do it if you were 538 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,400 mentally ill and so on, you know, so quite narrowly. 539 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,400 And then once it's through, it'll get widened by amendments. 540 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,120 Well, that hasn't happened anywhere else either. 541 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,480 Anywhere. And nobody has what? 542 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,840 None of the countries that have it and they're lots, they're 543 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,960 about 30 or 40 now. None of them have. 544 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,400 There's never been an attempt to repeal the law. 545 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,800 So what, what did you make of the the way the private members 546 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,080 bill that has just gone fallen sort of went through because 547 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,080 that that debate was really interesting to watch. 548 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,640 And that, you know, it started off with sort of lots of people 549 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,160 backing it and, and lots of high profile people like, like Danny 550 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,520 explaining their opposition. But then people also turned and 551 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,640 people who had supported it then decided, oh, actually this is a 552 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,760 bit too contrary. People had thought it was the 553 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,440 wrong bill, they said. They were supported the idea in 554 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,520 principle but thought that the bill was fraud, which is fair 555 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,960 enough, and that was an intelligent debate. 556 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,520 But what happened in the House of Lords was absolutely 557 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,880 disgraceful. I mean, a handful of Lords who 558 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,560 frankly, I regard as completely bigoted proposed nearly 2000 559 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,440 amendments, well over 1000 amendments, I forget exactly how 560 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:11,880 many, which was a record by far from for any bill has never had 561 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,280 that many amendments. And they were deliberately there 562 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,120 that their whole plot, plot and plan was to make sure that the 563 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,360 bill would run out of time and therefore it would fall because 564 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,960 that was happens. I mean, that's the way 565 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,040 Parliament works. If, if, if, if a bill can't be 566 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,720 debated in the time allotted to it, it falls and then you're 567 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,200 back to square 1 again. And that's what they did. 568 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,840 And they did it deliberately. It was totally cynical. 569 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,960 The House of Lords is meant to be there to scrutinize bills and 570 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,360 to offer suggestions for improvement. 571 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,120 They are meant to improve a bill, but by the time it comes 572 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,240 to the Lords, it's already been passed by the House of Commons. 573 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,200 The House of Commons had voted it through, expected it to pass, 574 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,120 and this six laws scuppered it deliberately, cynically. 575 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,040 Did did you wish you were? You had been there, yeah. 576 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,880 You had wanted at one point to be in the Lords. 577 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,920 Haven't you a long? Time when I was much younger, I 578 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,360 thought if I could only get into the House of Lords, I could 579 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,280 change this and I could change that and I could do this. 580 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,520 But you know, that never happened. 581 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,400 But, and, but I would have liked to be there just to vent my 582 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,480 rage. But, and they in fact, 583 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,400 interestingly, there were a lot of Lords who were opposed to the 584 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,680 Bill on principle, but they were indignant at what those other 585 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,160 laws were doing to sink it because they thought that's it. 586 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,880 It was denying them a vote. They wanted it to be debated and 587 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,120 they wanted a democratic solution. 588 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,680 I mean, this is not Democrat, this is not democracy. 589 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,440 It's not how them Lords is meant to work. 590 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,880 And I mean, what will happen of course, it just, it just means a 591 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,160 delay because nobody's going to give up. 592 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,720 It'll come back in the next Parliament and probably if it's 593 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,240 if the Lords try try to block it again, they'll invoke the 594 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,000 Parliament Act which is a bit complicated to explain, but 595 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,000 basically the Parliament Act will prevent the House of Lords 596 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,200 scuppering a bill if the Commons want to see it passed. 597 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800 I mean, after all, the House of Commons are elected MPs, the 598 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,200 House of Lords unelected. I mean, how, how do you think 599 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,600 feel about this personally, if you were to get to the point, 600 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,640 you know, heaven forbid that you, well, we were terribly ill 601 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,080 or whatever it is, knowing that your son, I don't know how your 602 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,760 other, how, how your daughter or any of the others feel about it. 603 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,960 And, and maybe that's private, but knowing that he is so 604 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,880 publicly against it, how do you feel about yourself? 605 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,520 Ever. I'm not worried about it at all. 606 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,640 I mean, first of all, you would do it. 607 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,480 My, if I wanted to do it, if I needed to, I would be able to do 608 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,760 it and my husband would help me, I'm sure. 609 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,520 But I think the interesting thing is that, you know, Daniel 610 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120 and I made a film together about this for Channel 4. 611 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,440 And we, we went to America and Canada to have a look at how, 612 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,600 how it works in practice. And interestingly, we both came 613 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,480 back feeling what we had seen had had supported our case. 614 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,840 You know, we didn't shift at all really. 615 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,120 I mean, I did feel I understood more his side of things and I 616 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,440 think he became more sympathetic to my compassion arguments. 617 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:24,480 And he he did end up saying, look, if if it's legal and you 618 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,680 want to do it, I will hold your hand. 619 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,760 So he would be there. He did say that they weren't. 620 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,440 Yeah. He wouldn't approve of it, but 621 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,040 because I wanted it, he would do it. 622 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,200 The Joys of Old Age are your sort of penultimate chapter in 623 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,000 this What are the key joys of getting older? 624 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,600 People need to recognise that they perhaps don't. 625 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,680 No, I think they're quite small in a way, but but they're all 626 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,840 all pervasive. And I, we've talked about it a 627 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,120 bit. I think the chief boy, the chief 628 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,720 joy is, is not caring what people think when you. 629 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,640 Do because you also say you you. You don't like being rude, and a 630 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,560 lot of old people don't care about being rude, but you do. 631 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,679 No, but that's a. That's a long a lifetime of 632 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:14,239 being taught not to be rude. So I can't, I find it difficult 633 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:20,880 to be rude, but I don't mind. I don't, I don't really mind if 634 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:27,080 people disagree with me. I don't, you know, it doesn't. 635 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,239 You know, when you're, when you're young, you spend a lot of 636 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,960 time worrying about what people will think. 637 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,960 I mean, I, I do sometimes look at myself in the mirror and 638 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,600 think, honestly, this is too much. 639 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,760 You've got, you know, you've got orange earrings the size of 640 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,320 tennis balls on your ears. You've got these ridiculous 641 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,639 glasses and you've got, you know, and you're, and you're 642 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,440 wearing a, you know, zigzag. You do. 643 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,520 You do care. So I I, I say that, but then I 644 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,560 think bloody hell, I like it, so I'm going to do it. 645 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,280 You know, so you dig it for you. I'd rather for me. 646 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,680 Yeah, exactly. Rather than the approval. 647 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,240 And then the other minor joys, which are a complete joy. 648 00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:07,200 And one of them that I had never realised was such a joy is 649 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,600 having a Kip in the afternoon. It's just lovely. 650 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,480 Pru's news, it's called. And, and in fact, the joke is 651 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,240 that the, when we're filming, you know, we have this with this 652 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:24,040 little show called truly Scotswold Kitchen, which is on 653 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,880 ITV. And it's really, it's, I love 654 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,960 that show because I get to control everything, you know, I 655 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,200 get to decide what we're going to cook. 656 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,920 I get to choose the guests who come on it. 657 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,200 And, and it's all filmed in my own kitchen. 658 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,960 And it's just my idea of heaven because I'm such a control 659 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,120 freak. But the joy of it, one of the 660 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,600 joys of it is that around about 2:00 in the afternoon, I'm 661 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,160 really tired, you know, old lady, I get tired and then I go 662 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,280 to sleep for an hour and so does everybody else. 663 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,160 It says Pru Snooze on the on the call sheet 2:00 PM to 3:00 PM 664 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,240 or. And everybody does. 665 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,360 Everybody has to be quiet because they're the kitchen is 666 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,360 underneath my bedroom, so I'm asleep up there. 667 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,080 Everybody has to shut up. And you know they love it 668 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,640 because they walk around the garden or they or they text the 669 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,640 girlfriends and the crew actually love having an hour off 670 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,160 in the middle of the day. I mean, the the thing I think 671 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,160 I've I've, I've been too blushing to ask you really about 672 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,520 as as well as about love. But the show has clearly made 673 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,440 your husband a star as well. The new show. 674 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,400 And and again, I think that's something you're very unusual 675 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:41,480 in, in that you've done it later on in life and you talk about it 676 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,080 very openly. Again, I mean, are there are 677 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,480 there any? I know this wasn't written as a 678 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,640 sort of a self help book, but what would you say to other 679 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,440 people about who who kind of think, well that's not for me at 680 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,640 my age? You mean love? 681 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,040 Yeah. Well, they don't want it. 682 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,720 For God's sake, don't have it. You know, nothing could be worse 683 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:06,880 than the idea of having to force yourself to pretend to be keen 684 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,360 on somebody when you're not. But I, I. 685 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:17,920 What are they missing out on? Oh, I think again, maybe it's 686 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:24,000 luck or pheromones or whatever it is, but I met John when I was 687 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,640 70 and what did surprise me was it felt just like being 17. 688 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,600 You know, you start worrying about Willy text you, you start 689 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,280 composing a text and thinking, well, I can't send that. 690 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,320 I've been an author. And then deleting it and then 691 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,040 trying again. And then why doesn't he ring up? 692 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,080 What's the matter with the guy? He's so crazy, so crazy. 693 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,080 And, and we were together for five years before he's, and you 694 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,640 know, it's just an old fashioned thing, but I was still waiting 695 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,000 for him to pop the questioner And I kept thinking I'm a, I'm a 696 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,200 grown up liberated woman. Why don't I just ask him? 697 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,520 And I think, well, I couldn't bear to because he might say no, 698 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,160 really unhappy, at least if I, if he's not said, will you marry 699 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,000 me? And I have not said anything. 700 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,960 There's still a good chance you will, and you did. 701 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,920 It took a while. Well, I'm very pleased for you. 702 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,600 Thank you very much indeed, Pru Lee, for coming in and talking 703 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,520 to us about being old and learning to love it. 704 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,320 I, I think you're on a curve. You know, I think there's going 705 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,320 to be quite a lot in this. Well, is it an upward curve? 706 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:30,960 That's what you need to do, right? 707 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,080 Good. I, I think so. 708 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,720 I think you're probably at the beginning of a of an upward 709 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,680 curve. Well, I'm, I'm really happy and 710 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,160 I'm very grateful. I know I'm I don't want to. 711 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,800 I just know that I can sound really smug and I don't want to 712 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,000 be smug. No, I don't think people think 713 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,120 of you as smug. I think of you as successful and 714 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,520 impressive and and very nice. So thank you very much for 715 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,680 coming in. And that's it. 716 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,960 Four ways to change the world. You can watch these interviews 717 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,480 on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. 718 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,200 Until next time, bye bye.