1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,440 Studying human evolution, you cannot help but be impressed 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,600 with our species. I mean, we're a nightmare of 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,880 species at the same time, don't get me wrong, But time and time 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,400 again we are resilient against all odds. 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,160 And every single person listening to this is literally 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,040 the result of thousands of people who, against all odds, 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,880 survived. I have a lot of hope in our 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,600 species. You are a questioning scientist. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,720 You're a professional skeptic. Yeah, But as, as a teenager, 10 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,160 yeah, you were a religious. Missionary, Missionary. 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,240 Zealots. So you had a massive personality 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,360 change in, in, in over the over the period of time. 13 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:43,040 I think that is the nature though of tribalism. 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:50,480 You agree with your tribe. Hello and welcome to Ways to 15 00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:52,480 Change the World. I'm Christian Gurimurthy, and 16 00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:55,560 this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,920 about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have 18 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,040 helped shape them. My guest today is best known for 19 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,000 exploring our human origins, but her own origin story is a 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,480 gripping tale too. Ella Al Shamahi grew up as a 21 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,960 Muslim creationist but was converted to evolutionary 22 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:15,920 biologist at university and is now a paleoanthropologist 23 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,400 exploring the evolution of Homo sapiens in the BBC series Human. 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,560 Ella, Welcome, welcome. Thank you for having. 25 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Me. First of all, what is a 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,200 paleoanthropologist? It's somebody who studies deep, 27 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,480 deep time. So I I wouldn't wake up for the 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,880 Romans as an archaeologist, but I would wake up for early 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,280 civilizations and I'd certainly wake up for early man. 30 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,320 And and, and how much of it is anthropology and projection and 31 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:43,440 how much of it is science? Don't ask me that. 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,360 No. At the top, yeah. 33 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,080 It's like a stab in the heart. Yes. 34 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,560 We have very, very few remains and we build a lot of stories 35 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,600 out of that. Because the thing that always, 36 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,400 you know, grips me with BBC landmark series like Human is 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,760 how sure the script is of, of what we did and how we did it 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,919 and all the rest of it. And and I wonder how sure you 39 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,000 are. I, I will say look at the script 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,360 carefully or hear it carefully. There are a lot of maybe. 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,240 There are a lot of perhapses. Sometimes we have a maybe and a 42 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,840 perhaps and a single sentence just to, you know, appease 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,040 everyone. I will say though, we actually 44 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,520 now have quite a lot of evidence to paint a certain picture 45 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,400 because we also have DNA. And I think that has been a 46 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,240 massive, massive game changer. So, so for example, just a 47 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,400 simple one, like did Neanderthals and Homo sapiens 48 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,000 interbreed? Which is really just a fancy way 49 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,080 of saying, did we have sex? This has been like a story. 50 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:48,240 It's been just debated for the longest time. 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,600 As soon as you start getting ancient DNA. 52 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,200 It's game over, you know? You can answer that question. 53 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,240 So I would say ancient DNA has has really, I mean, it's 54 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,760 revolutionized the field without a doubt. 55 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,240 I mean, there's a reason Swante Papa won a Nobel Prize. 56 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,040 It was a year ago or something, because it was just him invent. 57 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,080 Well, he didn't invent it. He he was able to extract that 58 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,840 DNA was so pivotal to the field. And what human has done is, is 59 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,960 look at all the different types of people, yeah. 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,800 Who were, who were on the planet, yeah. 61 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,480 Coexisting, yeah. Which is not something we forced 62 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:21,320 about a lot. Yeah. 63 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,800 Has it made you question taxonomy, you know, and and make 64 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,240 you think, well, actually we, we've given names for all these 65 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,200 things, but are they really as distinct as all of that given 66 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,040 they were all interbreeding? So it's interesting that you say 67 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,520 types of human, because I would say that there's different 68 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,520 species of human. But you're so right to ask about 69 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,960 the taxonomy thing. Most people at school, this is 70 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,720 slightly technical, but most people at school got taught what 71 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,600 a species is. And the understanding of a 72 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,880 species is, oh, it means that it's basically if two 73 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,840 individuals can have children, but those children are 74 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,840 infertile, that basically means they're two different species. 75 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,800 That is called the biological species concept. 76 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,760 It turns out there are over 20 different species concepts 77 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,000 because it's all to some extent bull, because we are trying to 78 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,120 put a taxonomy and a framework on nature and nature knows no 79 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,519 framework, right? But it is a useful tool to help 80 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,960 decipher because we're clearly different to those other 81 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,800 species. And there were many of them. 82 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,200 And I think in that show, in the show, 1 of the things that is 83 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,880 just so exciting is that we're able to portray this world of 84 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,680 many. And I think for most people, 85 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,360 they just haven't grasped this concept that this is the only 86 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,640 time in human history that only one species has walked the 87 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,200 earth. This is a bizarre the last 88 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:52,400 20,000 years is not the norm for for hundreds of thousands of 89 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,560 years we shared the planet with many other humans, human 90 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:56,640 species. They were. 91 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,640 They were things like Homo erectus Neanderthals. 92 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,480 And the things we. Learned to draw at school. 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,000 If you Yeah. And a lot of time people weren't 94 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,600 even taught this stuff at school and you know, there's some 95 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,040 species in there that seem fantastical. 96 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,320 I keep talking about the so-called Hobbit, which is 97 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,720 actually called Homo floresiensis, which is this tiny 98 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,880 human who came up to about my, I'd say about my hips. 99 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,760 So about a meter tall, so just over 3 feet. 100 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,400 They had brains the size of chimps and yet they were able to 101 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,240 make fire, make stone tools, stood upright, were humans in 102 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,960 the full sense of the word. But they lived on this one 103 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,080 island in Indonesia with giant marabou stalks that were taller 104 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,200 than me, miniature elephant like mammals called stegadons, giant 105 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,600 rats. There's a reason we call it The 106 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,040 Hobbit and there's a reason why I would argue that that was a 107 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,960 Lord of the Rings esque world, except it was real. 108 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,720 And I, I do feel very strongly that partly it is just a 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,120 fantastic story to tell and. And have you come to any 110 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,240 conclusions yourself about why we were the ones who won if you 111 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,240 put in the end? 10 paleoanthropologists in a 112 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,520 room. Everybody would give you a 113 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,960 slightly different answer. Some of them would be wildly 114 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,360 different. I present in the show what I 115 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:22,400 feel is most accurate and I kind of come down to a few reasons. 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,880 And there are reasons that obviously it has to align with 117 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,400 some of our series consultants and what have you, But there is 118 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,320 a joy in being able to present your field and go, you know 119 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,160 what, this is the theory I am going to run with. 120 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,880 And they're often theories that people aren't expecting, right? 121 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,360 So a lot of people have just assumed it's our brain size, but 122 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,280 Neanderthals had similar sized brains to us. 123 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,120 And also if it's just about brain size, I keep saying this, 124 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,960 if it was just about brain size, elephants and whales would be on 125 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,280 this podcast right now. And not like it's like, it's not 126 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,000 just brain size. So one of the things we argue 127 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:59,080 actually is that friendliness, cooperation is what gave us an 128 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,320 edge as a species. And that shocks people because 129 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,760 they look at us and they go the friendly species really. 130 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,840 And I'm like, yes, actually cooperate. 131 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:11,680 There is so much evidence to show that we are a hyper highly 132 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,120 cooperative species in a way that no other species has ever 133 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,440 been, and that that gave us this edge. 134 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,640 And there are theories that state things like language and 135 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,560 our brain kind of being superior. 136 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,360 And I'm saying this in inverted commas isn't actually because 137 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,440 that was being, that's what was being selected for. 138 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,360 That was what, you know, we were driving towards. 139 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,800 It's that actually we were a highly cooperative species. 140 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,320 And so we ended up with better brains and we ended up with 141 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,720 language just to help us be the social cooperative. 142 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,440 So actually us being smarter is kind of a side effect of us just 143 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,440 being really social, which is kind of wonderful. 144 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,720 And I'm like, why are we not talking about this, especially 145 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,400 in the political climate we're in right now? 146 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,000 Yeah, it feels relevant. It feels relevant that actually 147 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,480 the hyper corporate cooperation is the cornerstone to our 148 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,960 success, in my opinion. Yes, although you, you might 149 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,080 then say that we're, we're regressing in terms of sort of 150 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,720 the dominance human characteristics on display 151 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,600 around the world right now, tribalism, war fights. 152 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,920 Yeah. And that's where it gets 153 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,680 uncomfortable for me because a lot of us in the field would 154 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,920 argue that the world around us today is not the world we've 155 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,720 evolved for. It's just not. 156 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,120 And and we will probably never be evolved for the world that 157 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,320 we're in ever again because we evolved for caves being prime 158 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,240 real estate for a tribe of about 100, I don't know, 150 people 159 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,720 where I don't know, 2/3 of them would have basically been your, 160 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,120 your dad's relatives where you knew everybody by name. 161 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,480 We did not evolve for farming cities and certainly the last 162 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,560 400 years where there's just been this absolute technological 163 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:57,000 overhaul and that comes with problems. 164 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,680 It just does. And that's an existential 165 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:03,120 conundrum for me because I see it as a trade off, right 166 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,800 Krishnan? Like on the one side, 167 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,920 truthfully, if our ancestors hadn't made that huge, massive 168 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:14,920 leap, farming cities, etcetera, etcetera, we wouldn't have the 169 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,800 beauty that we sometimes see. I, I don't mean to sound, you 170 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,640 know, but like, you know, art things that are truly the kind 171 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,000 of art that takes your breath away, the kind of creativity 172 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,000 that takes your breath away. Also, we wouldn't have the 173 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,520 capacity to support as many people. 174 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,080 You and I realistically just wouldn't have like, you know, 175 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,520 our ancestors wouldn't have made it. 176 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,960 But the trade off is that we're not evolved for the world that 177 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,800 we're in. We don't fit here. 178 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:44,280 Like it, it, it, it doesn't, it is not, it's not a, it's not a 179 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,640 good fit in any way. To the extent that I, I think we 180 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,880 can blame a lot of things that are going wrong on the fact that 181 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:56,120 we're cave people. We're just stuck here with many 182 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,960 benefits, You know, like truthful, if you held the gun to 183 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,960 my head and we're like, OK, well, you go back to the 184 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,480 Paleolithic and I'll be like, no, no, no, please. 185 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,680 I'm actually quite happy where I am, but there's so much that 186 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:08,800 isn't working. And in my opinion, it isn't 187 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,320 working because this isn't the world we've evolved for. 188 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:12,680 Right. But do you believe as an 189 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:15,280 evolutionary biologist now that that evolution will have the 190 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,720 answers to? This. 191 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,960 No, because and that this is something that's constantly 192 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,920 moving and changing and. No, I think I agree with other 193 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,480 evolutionary biologists that basically think evolution is now 194 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:31,440 dwindling to the point of almost not existing in our species 195 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,840 because we have medicine and science that have just taken 196 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,000 away the things that would normally have cast out people 197 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,360 that, you know, for example, I mean, the most extreme example, 198 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,280 this is uncomfortable. So I'm really sorry about this. 199 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,320 But like infertility, infertility that is the biggest 200 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,440 thing that would normally be selected against like just by 201 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:59,960 very nature of it now. Well, infertility is something 202 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,360 to be solved with science, which is a wonderful thing. 203 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,440 Like it's. One Direction is no longer. 204 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,440 Operative, if it's it, it does still exist. 205 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,200 It's very weak. It's very, very weak. 206 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,600 Certainly in the West. It's incredibly incredible. 207 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,480 You know, it's I mean. Because that it's quite, it's a 208 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,720 massive claim that certainly you're saying human behaviour, 209 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,840 yeah, has halted evolution. Oh, yeah. 210 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,160 I don't think that's controversial. 211 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,120 That's, you know, that's what we've been saying this for for a 212 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,840 while now. It's just, you know, do people 213 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,480 want to hear it? Because it sounds like I'm being 214 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,080 a Luddite and I'm not. I'm saying, you know, it's 215 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,880 wonderful that you can, that you can do all this stuff. 216 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,920 Like truthfully, you know, looking at Saint Paul's, for 217 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,080 example, takes my breath away. I cycle past it every single 218 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,560 time I cycle past it, I have to stop myself from stopping 219 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:48,200 because it takes my breath away. And yet there's, there's, it's a 220 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,720 trade off and it's, I would argue it's the biggest trade off 221 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,440 we've ever made. But why wouldn't we evolve to 222 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,760 get better? You know, human behaviour can 223 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,040 preserve us as we are, Yeah, but why? 224 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,560 Why wouldn't we actually get better at living on this planet 225 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:01,480 that we now live on? Because the. 226 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:03,960 Two things. One is the brutal reality of 227 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:10,200 natural selection is that if something is not advantageous, 228 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,080 you would not be having children or you'd be having less 229 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,480 children. That's just not our world today. 230 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,120 Our world today. You can, you can be brilliant by 231 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,920 every standard and choose not to have children and that be, you 232 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:27,120 know, absolutely normal. You can have some kind of a like 233 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,120 any kind of disease that normally would have. 234 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,240 We laugh in our family that quite a few of us have got 235 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,800 allergies and one of us has an allergy to dust. 236 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,000 And we just laugh at that particular sibling because we're 237 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,080 like, Can you imagine how you would have handled the caves? 238 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,480 Bless you. It's a good job that the 239 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,040 Shamahis were like, you know, hanging around right now and not 240 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,640 back then basically. And the flip side is that 241 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,320 technology is evolving way too fast. 242 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,880 So I have a condition. People see me sometimes typing 243 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,760 with a stylus on my on my smartphone. 244 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,760 And I am sure that a lot of people think I'm a hipster, and 245 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,040 I am. But I do it because this motion, 246 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,320 which is where you move your thumb to swipe is something I 247 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:15,160 can no longer do on my right hand because I overused my phone 248 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,040 10 years ago, answering emails, being a workaholic, etcetera, 249 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,040 etcetera. And I gave myself repetitive 250 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,560 strain injury, which they used to call BlackBerry syndrome, but 251 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:25,560 they actually called it BlackBerry syndrome because in 252 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:28,120 the early days of technology, the BlackBerry isn't even around 253 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,400 anymore. So I have a condition. 254 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,440 It's but I have a condition because of technology that the 255 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,560 ancestor there, there was no, no early homo sapien was sitting in 256 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,880 a cave needing to do that motion to make a stone tool, to create 257 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,040 art, to do anything. I need to do it for my phone 258 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,520 today. Ironically, the name given to my 259 00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:50,320 syndrome colloquially, it is obsolete because that technology 260 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,440 is now also obsolete. Do you see what we're dealing 261 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,560 with? I don't know what to do with 262 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,360 half of this because I'm just, you know, it's it's such an 263 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,400 existential. Yeah, it is an existential 264 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,440 dilemma. I think it's in one way, I try 265 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,720 to argue that it's wonderful because it gives me context for 266 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,560 things. We have, for example, a problem 267 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,360 with procrastination and negativity bias and we see it 268 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,920 playing out, for example, in social media. 269 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,840 And for those who don't know about negativity bias, that's 270 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,400 the study upon study has shown that we remember and have a 271 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,040 stronger reaction to negative things over positive things. 272 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,480 So if I was to lose $50.00, in fact, this is an experiment, I 273 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,160 have a stronger reaction to it than if I was to find $50. 274 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,600 And you think, right, so, so just we're screwed, right? 275 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,040 We've got except if you understand the evolutionary 276 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,080 context of it, because Once Upon a time it was more helpful for 277 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,080 me to remember the thing that would kill me. 278 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,040 I don't know the mushrooms on the left of The Cave that are 279 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,080 going to kill me than the lovely grapes on the right of The Cave 280 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,360 that are just nice to eat. That information. 281 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,640 The mushrooms that are going to kill me, that's the information 282 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,320 I have to have a stronger reaction to because I might die 283 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,280 if I don't remember that. So it's, you know, it's like we 284 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,800 survived to, we didn't survive to thrive. 285 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,320 We just survived to survive, basically. 286 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,880 Now, I, I mentioned in the intro that your own origin story is, 287 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,400 is is is as gripping. And the truth is, you were 288 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,200 brought up not to believe. Yeah, most of what you've yeah 289 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:20,600 said. Yeah. 290 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,400 So, So what was your childhood? I mean, you, you were, you were 291 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,280 brought up as a creationist. Effect Yeah. 292 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,160 So this was a community, a Muslim community that was highly 293 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,160 conservative and at the time, and I really do want to point 294 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,360 out the community has moved on since then, but at the time 295 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,880 there was no space for evolution. 296 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,720 Everybody was a creationist. But it wasn't just that, it was 297 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,280 that I was, I was a missionary. I decided to become a missionary 298 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,240 at the age of 13 or something ridiculous. 299 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,200 I guess I have a certain personality type. 300 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,000 It's been incredibly freeing. But if I'm to be honest, 301 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,840 uncomfortable, Krishna, to talk about this in the last few days 302 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,640 because it's a huge part of my life, my story. 303 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,200 All my friends know about it. I make sense to them because of 304 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,240 that. And yet it's something I kind of 305 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,720 have very much kept mostly under wraps. 306 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,520 But I was a missionary, and one of the things that I had 307 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,920 identified as an incredibly young missionary was that we had 308 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,240 a real problem with our response to evolution. 309 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,360 If you walked into almost any Muslim bookshop at the time, the 310 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,320 book shops were filled with books by a particular author 311 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,080 called Harun Yahya, who is now in prison and has been exposed 312 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,080 as a cult leader, but at the time was the Muslim answer to 313 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,080 human evolution. And I'm really glad that the 314 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,800 community has moved on since then. 315 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,360 And it's a community now that is very pluralistic. 316 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,840 So many people are very, very, very chill with evolution. 317 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,600 But that just wasn't the case even 13 years ago. 318 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,920 And so I decided as a very, very young person with the arrogance, 319 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,440 I think to some extent of youth, I'm kind of smiling because I 320 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,280 realized how embarrassing this is in some ways to say that I 321 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,160 thought I was going to go to university to study evolution so 322 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,920 that I could destroy it, because I thought we were either being 323 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,720 lied to or that something else was going on. 324 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,079 So. What did you actually believe? 325 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:34,000 I, I believed in a very, very I I just would not comprehend the 326 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:39,600 idea of any evolution, actually, not just humans, but the 327 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,680 evolution of any kind. So God created everything. 328 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,240 Yes, but created everything in its final form 'cause there are 329 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,920 today, for example, you'll find a lot of. 330 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,760 Plenty of religion that's compatible with. 331 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,320 Exactly, exactly. And. 332 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,920 And yeah, I mean. You were very literal about it. 333 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,560 Yes. And to be fair, the community at 334 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,520 the time, that was that was the orthodoxy when you talk about 335 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,280 the. Community, I mean, do do you 336 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,960 mean, I mean, was it your parents who brought you up this 337 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,160 way or was it everyone around you? 338 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,040 Or everyone around me. And I I am sure that there were 339 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,880 some people that were probably chill with evolution, they just 340 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:20,800 weren't saying it publicly. Certainly not in the UK and 341 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,320 certainly in the missionary world. 342 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,400 Yeah, we weren't going to. We weren't going to mess with 343 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,280 that. Were you just not questioning of 344 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,000 it at that time? I, I mean, I was questioned, I, 345 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:34,880 but I was, I understood that I had the absolute truth and my 346 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,120 interpretation was absolutely correct. 347 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,880 And the interpretation that my community and my missionary 348 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,920 crowd all had was absolutely the truth. 349 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,000 And therefore I, why wouldn't I? I think this is the thing that 350 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,040 people don't often understand is a lot of the time it in whatever 351 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,280 your tribe is, if you really believe in something, you really 352 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,840 believe it. Like you, you assume that the 353 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,040 scientists are either lying or the, or they're just wrong 354 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,600 somehow. And that's what I thought. 355 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:02,880 And so. So when you talk about your 356 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,400 community, yeah, I mean, 'cause obviously there are lots of 357 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,840 Muslim community. It's not, it's not a single 358 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:09,720 entry. So what do you mean? 359 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,680 Do you mean 'cause you're Yemeni in origin? 360 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,600 Yes. I mean is, is that significant 361 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,760 in this? Or no so so if you if you look 362 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:17,760 what? Was your community. 363 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:24,320 So my community, I would say was a broad based, very conservative 364 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,120 Muslim community that was kind of pan Arab, I would say. 365 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:33,080 But then in the missionary world, it was much, much 366 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,320 broader. So a lot of Pakistanis in that 367 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,640 world, it was basically missionaries, a more 368 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,680 conservative interpretation of the faith. 369 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,520 And also the thing obviously, well, maybe it's not obvious, 370 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,920 but if you're a missionary or as we say in Arabic, daiya or 371 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,800 you're doing dawa, by and large, you tend to take the most 372 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,360 conservative interpretation for everything. 373 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:53,520 It's just the way it is. But. 374 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,840 I'm quite I'm really interested in how you came to be like this. 375 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,200 You know, Do you, do you now think I was brainwashed or I was 376 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,600 raised this way or I think you know, because you're, you're as 377 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,160 questioning scientist, you're a professional skeptic. 378 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,560 Yeah. But as, as a teenager, yeah, you 379 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:15,360 were a religious what? Missionary, Missionary. 380 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:17,960 Zealots, you know, I mean, what's? 381 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,960 I mean, yeah, those were massive. 382 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,760 Personality change in in in over the over the period of time. 383 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,880 Yeah, I mean, obviously still got big personality. 384 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:36,520 Jeez, I think that is the nature, though, Christian of, of 385 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,200 tribalism. You agree with your tribe and 386 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,520 you pretty much accept by and large the opinions of your 387 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,040 tribe. And the reason there were so 388 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,080 many incidents which were very telling to me because I 389 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,640 obviously turned up to university and there were one or 390 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,080 two people there who were also from my community. 391 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,280 They weren't missionaries, but they were from my community. 392 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:07,040 And I remember looking at one of them who was had to take an 393 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,080 evolution class. So I turned up to university 394 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,280 taking every single evolution class I could. 395 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,160 That was, I was on a mission. Yeah, I was there. 396 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,600 Whereas others were at University College London. 397 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,000 They're not going to let you. It's historically UCL was, you 398 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,680 know, the godless place on Gower Street. 399 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,800 There have a huge genetic evolutionary kind of tradition. 400 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,080 The Darwin building is literally where Darwin lived, etcetera, 401 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,360 etcetera. And they they're not going to 402 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,840 teach you a lot of their biological subjects without 403 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,120 forcing you to take a number of evolution classes. 404 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,720 And I looked at one of them and I said, OK, so I thought I found 405 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,760 my sister in like, you know, brainstorming. 406 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,280 And I was like, great. So I'm thinking there's a 407 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,160 weakness here and there's potential weakness here. 408 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,560 What what are you thinking? And she, she was panicked. 409 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:54,680 And she was like, I don't want to think about this. 410 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,960 I have to take this class to pass and to get this, you know, 411 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,800 to get through the I do not want to think about this. 412 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,440 And I was like, for me, looking back now, I see what that was. 413 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,600 That was you fought in line with your tribe and you don't want to 414 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,000 question something because of the time that was actually 415 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,400 questioning your faith. It wasn't questioning. 416 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,160 It's not like there was the alternative that there is today. 417 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,840 It wasn't like there was a bunch of today there are actual Muslim 418 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,800 scholars who will vocally support evolution. 419 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,520 That was not happening at the time. 420 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,120 And I think when you live in that world, and I think it's 421 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:34,360 relevant today because of things like climate denial, vaccine 422 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:41,120 science denial people, those people are not sitting there 423 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,040 lying. They genuinely think that the 424 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,360 science is wrong, either that the scientists are lying to them 425 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,080 or that the science scientists are incredibly biased and are 426 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,320 not being honest about the data. And that's where I was. 427 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,600 I just thought these people are either lying or they're so 428 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,640 brainwashed into disbelief that they are just reading the data 429 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:03,680 in the way that they want to you. 430 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,040 Thought they were the tribe. I thought they were a tribe and 431 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,160 I thought I was a tribe, but I was part of a tribe, obviously 432 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,320 100%. And then the more I studied it, 433 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,160 the more yeah, the more obviously, yeah, it was awful 434 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,280 because I was like. I'm just about a gradual 435 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:20,800 process. Or was it was gradual was. 436 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,600 There a moment where you thought I've got to actually. 437 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,320 It was change. What I say and think? 438 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,320 It was gradual and it was over many, many years. 439 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,480 I mean, I was so I was so in love with that community. 440 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,680 I wasn't going to leave and even have unorthodox opinions easily. 441 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,680 And were you wearing hijab? Yes. 442 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,800 Hijab and also Jabab for a lot of the time, which is the kind 443 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,160 of long close. So. 444 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,760 So when did you take the hijab off? 445 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:54,760 So it was basically I was studying, studying. 446 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,960 The first thing was that very quickly I realized that 447 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,440 scientists weren't lying to me. Very quickly I was like, these 448 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,320 guys really believe so. So then I was like, all right, 449 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,760 there's the bias that's going on here. 450 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,760 And then it was trying to look into every bit of evidence that 451 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,160 that could possibly be used to support either either narrative. 452 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,080 And obviously, you know, it got to the point where it's like 453 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:23,640 that, that Darwin, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, but and 454 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,920 it just got to the point where I was like, you, just you, you're 455 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,640 going to have to accept. And it was it was a moment 456 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,400 actually even just talk. I even just talking about it 457 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,400 like kills me. It was a moment actually in the 458 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,600 shower where I really had had that kind of, you know, that 459 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,080 conversation with myself, because I've been having like 460 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,600 elements of the conversation with myself for a really, really 461 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,920 long time. And there was this moment in the 462 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,840 shower where I was like, and I can't, I'm, I'm sure it's in a 463 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,240 diary somewhere, but it's something along the lines of you 464 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,240 need to grow a pair and you need to accept that you believe in 465 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:08,320 evolution. And in, in that moment, like I 466 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:15,400 like, I fell to the floor, like I just, I cried my eyes out. 467 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,440 And it was because in I just knew that there was no way I 468 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,280 could continue to exist in that missionary world, a world that I 469 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,160 loved, that I had no problems with. 470 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,400 And I was like, right, what's this going to mean? 471 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,720 First of all, my ex-husband and I were having problems. 472 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,760 But what it meant was there was no way in hell I could go back 473 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,400 to that marriage. It meant that I had no idea what 474 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,760 was going to happen with my family. 475 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,680 Thankfully, my siblings are the most incredible people in the 476 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,760 world, and they decided to continue kind of holding me 477 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,800 tight. And the third thing is realizing 478 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,680 that I had to leave. And in in realizing I had to 479 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,360 leave, I can't tell you how terrifying that was because that 480 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,920 was everybody I knew. That was a paradigm shift on 481 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,680 that scale. I mean, I'm struggling to tell 482 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,600 you this right now. And this is how many years has 483 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,920 it been? I'm, I'm, you know, that I was 484 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,360 27 when that happened. I'm 41 now and I still can't 485 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,880 talk about it without like really. 486 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,200 And, and it was just like, I'm going to have to start all over 487 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:27,440 again. I'm going to have to say goodbye 488 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,720 to everyone. And it had to be extreme. 489 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,280 It had to be, I had to, I had to say goodbye to everyone because 490 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,840 without a goodbye, which is the really weird bit because I knew 491 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,440 the missionary training, they were just going to try and drag 492 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,680 me back. There was no, there was one or 493 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,040 two people that I maintained some kind of contact with from 494 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,320 that world friends. And when I broke the news to one 495 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,040 of them, she just looked at me and went, you're the one that 496 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,320 got us into all this and you're just going. 497 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,520 And I was. Like did you feel as a 498 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,760 missionary then working for Charles Darwin, that you then 499 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,480 had to go and tell them, look, this is all rubbish? 500 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,600 No, the reason I decided not to do that and I have had quite 501 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:17,480 clearly 0 interest in pushing that kind of thinking with our 502 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,680 individuals of any kind is that I had no intention of putting 503 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,040 anybody through what I went through. 504 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,040 I was like, you believe what you want to believe. 505 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,280 My hope was that the community would evolve to the point where 506 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,760 it didn't feel like a choice. And that is exactly what's 507 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,040 happened. I've actually had a number of 508 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,160 people in the last week and a half, Many, many people actually 509 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,560 message saying like, is Islam compatible with evolution or 510 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,920 telling me that they think it is or telling me that they think it 511 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,560 isn't and they're struggling or what have you. 512 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,480 And my attitude has been I'm, I'm my, those days are over. 513 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,840 My missionary days are over. I'm not here to tell you exactly 514 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,040 what to believe. I think evolution is completely 515 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,240 correct. But your relationship with 516 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,400 science and faith and your reading of the Quran is up to 517 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,400 you. And here's the, and what I will 518 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,160 actually do, which is kind of very UN missionary like of me. 519 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,440 I will present them with the arguments that I know Muslim 520 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,240 theologians today are making to support a literal interpretation 521 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,360 of the Quran and marrying it up with evolution. 522 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,280 Now, obviously, if you're like me and you don't believe in 523 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,480 illiterate interpretation of God and you, you're, you're fine, 524 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,120 right? It's, it's metaphorical. 525 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,080 It's this, it's not the other. But if you believe in illiterate 526 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,480 interpretation like many Muslims do, I want to point out to them, 527 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,200 you don't have to take the path I took. 528 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,440 You can, because what I did was heartbreaking and I don't want 529 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,960 anyone to do it if they don't want to and. 530 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,480 And did it make you reject everything about religion so 531 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,400 you're now an atheist? No, no, no, no. 532 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,120 So I, and I think that's become a, a thing that I want to scream 533 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,640 really loudly actually, that science cannot be a playground 534 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,760 just for left wing atheists. I myself, I'm a non practicing 535 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,000 Muslim. It just, it basically means that 536 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,680 I don't take the Quran literally. 537 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,120 I I, you know, I I I but. You believe in God? 538 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,240 Yeah, believe in a creator. Yeah, it's not. 539 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,640 But it's not like I have to then believe in every single. 540 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,280 I have many people in, in my world, for example, who are 541 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:25,040 incredibly comfortable with their interpretations of things, 542 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,520 and they're just not very literal interpretations. 543 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,960 I don't want people to feel like it should be this choice. 544 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,760 But part of the reason I'm talking about it now is that I'm 545 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,720 seeing a polarization of science that scares the hell out of me. 546 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,600 And so I'm I, I think it feels even more relevant today, but. 547 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,800 What is that polarization? There is a real crisis, I would 548 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,080 say, I would personally say that I completely agree that we live 549 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,040 in the post truth era vaccine science, climate science is, is 550 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,360 is massively contested. There was a real crisis of, of 551 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,560 trust in science. What's the OG theory that people 552 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,360 didn't like and they still don't like and that they still don't 553 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,440 like? It's it's evolution. 554 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,480 I happen to be able to speak to that quite extensively. 555 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,880 And my opinion is, and I say this not just to somebody who's 556 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,800 been through this, but it's my opinion as a 557 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,280 paleoanthropologist, as an evolution biologist, your 558 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,640 opinions are the opinions of your tribe and that that has 559 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:26,600 been selected for over, you know, hundreds of thousands of 560 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,400 years. And it has been to great 561 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,720 advantage historically and fundamentally. 562 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,160 You, you choose the opinions of your tribe, You choose the 563 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,760 opinions of the people that you love. 564 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,640 You don't often cross over the aisle. 565 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:47,320 And if we present science like it is in any way a tribal issue, 566 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,960 we are asking people to choose between the people that they 567 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,720 love and the paradigm that they exist in and science. 568 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,120 And that is not going to end well for our scientists. 569 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,480 Like it's just not because most people will choose the people 570 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,360 that they love. I didn't the question. 571 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,560 I was in too deep. I was years into studying this. 572 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,160 Subject So So what you're talking about in terms of 573 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,760 current culture wars, if you like, you know, people who are 574 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:19,840 growing up in vaccine sceptic communities or you know, people 575 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,480 who are just generally challenging the establishment 576 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,360 and the status quo, which is sort of a huge trend at the 577 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,200 moment and growing in power. And also people that are on the 578 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,080 right. I, I say as well also developed 579 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,320 people, highly religious people. Depending on the area of 580 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,120 science, It's hard to find people that will openly say that 581 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,240 they're very religious in any of any part of evolutionary 582 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,840 biology. I know that there are some 583 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,520 they're hiding in plain sight. They don't feel feel 584 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,040 particularly comfortable talking about it because they're bluntly 585 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,000 ridiculed often or, you know, eyebrows are raised. 586 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,920 You see, even in medicine, you know people, people are 587 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,240 surprised by it, but you're. Talking about COVID as an 588 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,320 example, where but where the the lab leak theory was sort of Pooh 589 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,400 poohed at first by science that was and now seems to be widely 590 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,280 accepted. That was so quickly polarized, 591 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,160 politically polarized. So what I have seen personally, 592 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,480 and this is my interpretation of things, is in the last few 593 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:25,720 years, science has always been kind of left-leaning, the 594 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,840 playground for atheists, certainly in the evolutionary 595 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,520 science, you know, by and large, that's kind of, but it has got 596 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,720 to a point which feels too tribal in my opinion. 597 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,120 So you had, for example, Jordan Peterson's very short kind of 598 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,840 chair in 2019, rescinded at Cambridge, makes me feel quite 599 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,320 uncomfortable. It's not that I like Jordan 600 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,640 Peterson, find his opinions to be yeah, uncomfortable, 601 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,200 etcetera, etcetera. But if you are on the right or 602 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,880 you support some of his opinions and you see that you see right. 603 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,800 Well, hold on, how many right wing scientists can I count if 604 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,520 if the data point is is if there are only like 3 data points and 605 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,600 I know that one of them has just had their chair cancelled. 606 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,800 It looks like science is not because it's. 607 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,320 Not about left or right because, you know, obviously Elon Musk is 608 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,280 going through the same thing with the Royal Society where 609 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,600 there are lots of scientists who are part of the Royal Society 610 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,120 want them expelled. Now it's not about left or right 611 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,360 or is that about people who are, you know, the, the, the reason 612 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,320 they are going for him, many of them is like he is, he is part 613 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,760 of something that is damaging science. 614 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,000 I am trying to avoid. Because of the cuts to science. 615 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,400 Yeah, So I so the Elon Musk thing I think comes out of my 616 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,040 argument slightly because he was in the administration and was 617 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,240 responsible for staff. Jordan Peterson wasn't the 618 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,800 people that were supporting the lab leak theory in the early 619 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,080 days when they were being decried as racists, that they 620 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,120 weren't part of the administration like they were. 621 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,360 They were not in political power. 622 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,440 They were scientists, some of whom were right leaning. 623 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,360 Sure. I'm not even arguing, by the 624 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,560 way, that some on the right weren't utilizing this for 625 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,600 political gain. But what I am saying is, and it 626 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,480 is so uncomfortable to be for for some of my tribe to hear 627 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,360 this, we have some culpability on the left because what I saw 628 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,239 with the lab leak theory, that's a really good example, is that 629 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,560 kind of throwing around of, oh, this is a racist ideology, et 630 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,000 cetera, et cetera. And what it really took was one 631 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,320 or two really big names who were willing to step outside of their 632 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,000 tribe and vocally say, and, and I would argue at the time took a 633 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,080 little bit of guts. But for example, Francois 634 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,360 Bellew, Professor Francois Bellew at UCL saying he was open 635 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,920 to the lab leak theory clearly being on the left, that kind of 636 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,880 helps the the energy dissipation. 637 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:55,679 Is that politics is actually getting in the way of good 638 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:56,800 science? Yeah, yeah. 639 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,720 But I would argue that while we have done a really good job, I 640 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,960 think of arguing and I for bloody good reason, right, that 641 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,240 the left have a huge amounts of culpability. 642 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,720 You know, I have a masters in biodiversity like climate. 643 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,440 Climate science is, is currently being denied in a way that just 644 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,760 absolutely boggles the mind. But I would say that we are 645 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,680 really, really good at pointing all that out and we are 646 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,040 completely correct. But I think we need to go look 647 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,160 at our own tribe as well for a minute and accept that there is 648 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,960 some culpability and accept as a general rule that if we have 649 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,680 somebody on the right who has opinions that we really, really 650 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,520 disagree with, as long as they are not causing physical harm 651 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,080 and as long as they are following the scientific method, 652 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:44,160 they need to be in the room. And we need to be arguing very 653 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,840 loudly that those people need to be in the room. 654 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,920 And what I have is that I am a brown woman. 655 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:54,680 And I, I stopped myself at saying an advantage because 656 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,800 obviously, you know, but in this particular instance, I would say 657 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,720 it's an advantage because as a brown woman and as somebody 658 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,200 whose career was basically built on me going into hostile 659 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,600 territories and saying these people deserve science as well. 660 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,280 I've kind of proven to some extent my progressive 661 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,280 credentials. Does that like as in it's much 662 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,480 more difficult for people to come at me when I go and defend 663 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,400 a right wing scientist and and we'll, you know, and we'll turn 664 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,160 around and say things like, I will say things like you look, I 665 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:24,960 don't necessarily have to like their opinion, but you guys need 666 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,800 to get over it. And this person needs to be in 667 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,080 the room partly for the good of science, because those bias, 668 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,800 their biases are going to be slightly different from my 669 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,400 biases. And and that's really important 670 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,200 just for the health of science. But then there's the wide 671 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,040 existential very over the moment conversation about the health of 672 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,720 science, which is if those people aren't here, what that 673 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:48,800 means is that the general public look at science as if it is not 674 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,000 not of their tribe. And that will reduce faith in 675 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,640 science. But also, and we're seeing this 676 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,280 now, it makes funding cuts so much easier because you can 677 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,640 argue this is we're, we're funding left wing science as 678 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,080 opposed to, no, we're just funding science. 679 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,280 And I, I know some people have got a bit annoyed with me saying 680 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,920 this in, in recent days, but I'll be honest with you, more 681 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,360 people have been messaging me going, yeah, yeah. 682 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,960 Because do you think what's happening in America, which is, 683 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,120 which is huge cuts to science funding, you know, medical 684 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,600 trials being stopped mid flow, whole tranches of research 685 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:26,880 basically being lopped off because so much government, so, 686 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,480 so much science funding in America actually comes from 687 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,440 central government? Yes. 688 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,160 Is is that a risk here as well? It absolutely is if we continue 689 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,560 going down this road. And that's why I think I will 690 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,160 say to people, we each need to go, we each need to go collect 691 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,520 our tribes. You know, I will be calling out 692 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,680 and I will be trying to rein in when our tribe is is getting a 693 00:37:52,680 --> 00:38:01,000 bit too polarizing, being a bit too aggressive and unwelcoming 694 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,640 to those on the right and to those who are religiously 695 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,640 devout. And, and I would hope that those 696 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,640 on the right are also willing to call out things like cuts to 697 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,200 science funding or denial of science that's quite robust as 698 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,120 this kind of science that really shouldn't be kind of called into 699 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:24,480 question. We all need to start really 700 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:25,760 thinking about what's at stake here. 701 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,320 And what's at stake here is science. 702 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,360 And that is terrifying it. We should be really, really 703 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,040 concerned about this. And yet I think we're more 704 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,840 comfortable pointing to the other. 705 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,640 I will say, though, I really do think the majority actually kind 706 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,840 of agree, but a lot of people are scared to say it. 707 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,760 A lot of people that have been messaging me are white men who 708 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,720 are scientists. Is it partly because science has 709 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,640 has often thrived and medical science particularly, I suppose, 710 00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:01,680 has thrived on uncertainty and, you know, giving people the 711 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,480 impression that we know what we're talking about 712 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,920 definitively? And the truth is it's it's not, 713 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,600 it's never that quite that clear cut. 714 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,920 That's a fair criticism. I, I do think that is a fair 715 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,920 criticism. I think it depends on the bit of 716 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,720 science, but I do think we have not always done a very good job. 717 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,120 And and to some extent, this isn't just scientists fault, 718 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,160 this is also government's fault for, you know, you've got to 719 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,240 build up the education system so that people understand that 720 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:30,240 science is just an interpretation of a set of data 721 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:32,040 points at a particular time. And that can change. 722 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,520 And I do think that sadly, most people understand science to be 723 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,240 gospel. And you? 724 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,720 Can't argue with the science. Yeah, well, actually you can. 725 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,720 Yeah, it is a really difficult one. 726 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,480 It is. And I do think, you know, as a, 727 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,520 as a science communicator, maybe we work on that one a little 728 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:58,200 bit, but at the same time, it, it is, it is a time that is 729 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:03,120 quite scary right now. I have turned around recently, 730 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,440 though, I was having a chat with some on the right in science and 731 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,000 we kind of looked at each other and we're like, what did we 732 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,600 think was going to happen? You know, we have, we have been 733 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,720 so loud about bringing down right wing thinking in the 734 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:20,840 sciences and right wing individuals. 735 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,280 What did we think was going to happen? 736 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,680 Did we really think that half of. 737 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,040 The population who are on the right would continue looking at 738 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:38,320 it and get science and think, you know, no, we've got to be 739 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,120 really, really careful and have a more nuanced discussion. 740 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,800 I think this moment should be a wake up call. 741 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:54,600 But I, I can, I definitely know that some people are having a 742 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,920 small wake up. I think some of them though, are 743 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,520 having that wake up call because their funding is being cut and 744 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,480 they're like, oh crap, I've got to play the game. 745 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,400 Just finally, I mean just sort of pull, pull things together a 746 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,120 little bit. I mean, you know, as somebody 747 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,760 who thinks evolution seems to have stopped. 748 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,680 I love how you're really focused on that. 749 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,760 You're like slightly alarmed by it, not completely stopped, but 750 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,600 I would say it's it's it's trudging along like very, very. 751 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,440 The the we're facing this sort of crunch points in science 752 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,000 where a huge number of people around the world could lose 753 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,640 faith in facts and science. Are you, are you able to 754 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:38,640 maintain any sense of optimism about human development as a 755 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,640 result of all of this or are you, or are you a sort of a, a 756 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,480 bit of a catastrophize? No, no, no, I OK, so I would say 757 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,600 two things to this. One is studying human evolution. 758 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,640 You cannot help but be impressed with our species. 759 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,120 I mean, we're a nightmare of a street species at the same time, 760 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,560 don't get me wrong. But time and time again, we are 761 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,240 resilient against all odds. And every single person 762 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:08,080 listening to this is literally the result of thousands of 763 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,600 people who, against all odds, survived. 764 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:14,640 I mean, there were seven species of human. 765 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,920 Most of them were, let me put it differently, we were the 766 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,920 underdog of the group, and yet we're the ones that are left 767 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,440 standing. I have a lot of hope in our 768 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,760 species. But the second reason is my own 769 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,280 story. I think for somebody to be able 770 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:40,480 to make such a traumatizing shift and find the funny in it, 771 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,760 you know, learning, let me tell you, learning how to exist in a 772 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,880 secular world. Having grown up, I often say, 773 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,160 you know, arranged marriage, by the way, by my imam, my imam 774 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,720 arranged my marriage to Tinder was quite the journey, let me 775 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:56,880 tell you. And the fact that fine, do you 776 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,960 know what I mean? Like I'm absolutely fine and can 777 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,360 come out the other end preventing ABBC landmark on 778 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,320 human evolution. For me, I'm like, we have the 779 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:11,440 capacity within us to be resilient, to come up with 780 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,960 ideas, to step outside of our tribe to change, etcetera, 781 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:21,480 etcetera. But it's difficult. 782 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,120 If you could change the world in any way, how would you change 783 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,440 it? I would ensure that social media 784 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:34,600 companies could not encourage polarization and tribalism. 785 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:37,800 I don't know how exactly they would do that. 786 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,080 We'd need some research into it. But if there was one thing I 787 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:47,880 could do, it was enforcing whatever is being advised to 788 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,840 stop that polarization. LL Shami, thank you very much 789 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:52,480 indeed. Thank you for having me. 790 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,200 I hope you enjoyed that. If you did then give us a rating 791 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,200 or review and then other people will find the programme. 792 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,640 You can watch all of the Ways to Change the World interviews on 793 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,720 the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. 794 00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:03,320 Until next time, bye bye.