1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,880 Donald Trump probably won't leave in 2028. 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,640 I would not shock me at all if he tries to run again or if he 3 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:06,240 tries to cancel or postpone elections. 4 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:08,560 I think American democracy faces an existential threat. 5 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:10,320 It has since he came down that escalator. 6 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,560 Authoritarianism in America. It's not going to be Jack boots 7 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,600 and concentration camps day one. It's going to be all band style. 8 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,000 It's going to be Modi style. The leader gets his billionaire 9 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,760 friends to buy up all the media, and that's what's happening 10 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,520 here. The one basic lesson I've 11 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,400 learned about politics over 25 years is you can't meet fascists 12 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,800 halfway. People don't vote for fascist 13 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,120 light, right? They vote for the real thing. 14 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,080 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 15 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,880 I'm Krishna Guri Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we 16 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,600 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their 17 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,320 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 18 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,240 My guest today is Mehdi Hassan. Now, Mehdi is a British 19 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,960 American. He has worked on all sorts of 20 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,920 mainstream media platforms from Channel 4 to Al Jazeera, but he 21 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,280 now is an independent with his own platforms at Teo, which 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,840 broadcasts on YouTube and other social media platforms. 23 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,680 He is outspoken, he's a forensic interviewer, and he straddles 24 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,640 the the world between conventional journalism and 25 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,200 advocacy and argument. And there's a lot to talk to him 26 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,720 about where the media is going and the role of journalism. 27 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:24,640 Mehdi, welcome. Thanks. 28 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,120 For having me, Krishna a long time. 29 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,320 Yeah, if you could change the world in any way, how would you 30 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:30,960 change it? OK, so we're starting with the 31 00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:34,480 big questions. How would I change the world if 32 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,840 I could change it? I guess given my background and 33 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,400 what I do, I would change the world by making it harder for 34 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,680 the people in power to lie without consequence and I think 35 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,800 I try and do that everyday by asking people in power questions 36 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,560 they don't want to ask. Do you think it works? 37 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,560 I mean, people often ask me this question about, you know, 38 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,000 holding people to account and holding truth to power and 39 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,800 pointing out the lies and pointing out the factual errors. 40 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:01,920 Do you think it's working? Because because you have 41 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,200 particularly honed in on that as your speciality in the way you 42 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,840 interview people, I think. I guess it depends what day of 43 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,160 the week it is Christian. Today we're recording on a 44 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,880 Thursday. So today maybe I do believe it 45 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,000 has value. If it's Friday, maybe I won't. 46 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,560 It's very hard to work out when what we're doing actually has an 47 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,080 impact in the current age. I remember back in 2016 being at 48 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,440 Al Jazeera and Donald Trump winning that election. 49 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,240 I remember vividly turning to my colleague to my right and saying 50 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,960 we might as well just this all up and go be accountants, right? 51 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,520 What is the point of doing what we're doing when millions of 52 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,080 people are completely immune to fact based journalism, are 53 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,800 living in a cocoon, you know, completely detached from 54 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,760 reality. And you know, we are a decade 55 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,240 later and it's much worse today, much, much worse. 56 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,480 The information aid. So we try, you know, I would, I 57 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,320 would point to you that there's a poll out today that shows 58 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Donald Trump is underwater on every single issue by the 59 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,600 border, by double digit points, the economy, immigration, 60 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,600 Epstein, Greenland. So it's not as if it's not 61 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,000 cutting through. People do hear and see what's 62 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,200 going on and change their minds. But it's getting harder and 63 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,040 harder, given the ability for politicians, especially on the 64 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,800 right, to shield their followers from facts and figures and 65 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,800 information. And globally, politicians are 66 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,120 copying Trump left, right and center. 67 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,520 And it's working. Yeah, I, I noticed that. 68 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,480 So I used to do a show for Al Jazeera called Upfront, where it 69 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,840 was a weekly show where I interviewed politicians from 70 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,720 around the world, Africa, Asia, Middle East, everywhere. 71 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,560 And I noticed that very quickly in 20/17/2018 that the ministers 72 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,040 from kind of African governments that I was interviewing sounded 73 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,400 exactly like Trump. They were saying fake news and 74 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,280 they were getting mad about things you don't get mad about. 75 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,040 They were attacking the interview and it was like, this 76 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,040 is very Trumpian and why wouldn't they, right. 77 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,800 They saw what worked in the United States, so why can't they 78 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,040 do it too? And we now do have this series 79 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,640 of Mini Trump's around the world, which again makes 80 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,520 journalism harder. Yeah, so, so, so how do you see 81 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,920 your role? I mean, you have worked in, you 82 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:00,160 know, British media, you worked on Channel 4, the Bbci think you 83 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,400 did a sort of a very traditional media role on Aljazeera as well 84 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,560 as sort of the anchor and interviewer, you know, trying to 85 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,160 be impartial, not giving out your own opinions. 86 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,320 You've ditched all of that and you've come out with what you 87 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,760 believe. Yeah, it's, it's a good 88 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,560 question. I don't know if I've ditched it. 89 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,600 Even Al Jazeera, I still do a show called Head to Head, which 90 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,240 I've been doing for coming up to 14 years now since I launched 91 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,440 with Richard Dawkins and my position on impartiality, 92 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,760 Christian and actually Channel 4 News, I know takes I used to 93 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,560 work at Channel 4 with you there. 94 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,080 It takes a pretty similar opinion, which is impartiality 95 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,880 doesn't mean you have no views. It means that you actually give 96 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,720 other people a right of reply. You give the other side of the 97 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,920 argument, but it doesn't mean you can't make an argument, 98 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,600 doesn't mean you can't take a position. 99 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,240 And and that's always been my case. 100 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,254 I still do interviews on Al Jazeera in London call head to 101 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,160 It's very clear where I'm coming from. 102 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,960 If I'm interviewing an Israeli official, for example, it's very 103 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,320 clear what my position is and what's happening in Gaza, that 104 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,680 it's a genocide. But it's not as if I don't give 105 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,560 him a chance to ask the question, as if I don't make 106 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,280 sure that the audience has supporters of his. 107 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,840 We're not, you know. So in that sense, impartiality 108 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:07,960 is a very tricky word and people throw it around without really 109 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,320 understanding it. But yes, I've always had very 110 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,320 strong views. And when I was a commissioning 111 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,320 editor at Channel 4, behind the scenes, I had to keep many of 112 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,360 those views to myself. When I left Channel 4, that's 113 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,760 actually when I came out of the political closet. 114 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,840 Should we use that phrase and made it very clear what my views 115 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:26,640 were? Because I left Channel 4 in 116 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,400 2000, I'm trying to think what year was 2000 and nine, 2009? 117 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,880 Yes, 2009. And I joined the New Statesman 118 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,560 magazine as the political editor there. 119 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:38,360 And that's where I started turning up on TV and writing 120 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,320 pieces and airing my positions. And I have an opinion 121 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:42,480 journalist. I've never hit that fact. 122 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,040 And I obviously when I worked at MSNBC here in the United States, 123 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:46,920 that is an opinion cable news channel. 124 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,440 So you're presenting the news, but you are giving your take on 125 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,000 the news. And you know what, in the 126 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,720 current climate, frankly, I find that a more honest position than 127 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,720 the people who pretend to be impartial but end up not being 128 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,600 impartial at all. Look at what's happening right 129 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,440 now in the US with CBS News. And then you host where they're 130 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,200 pretending to be in the middle, but it's basically pro Trump TV. 131 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Yeah. I mean in, in terms of sort of 132 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,720 nailing the truth though, and pointing out for lies, what what 133 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:16,000 have you found as the difference in how people react when you 134 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,120 have an open opinion and an open position? 135 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,680 And, and lots of American, you know, America dropped the, you 136 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:28,800 know, the, the impartiality principle a long time ago, the 137 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,680 fairness doctrine. But have you noticed any 138 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,920 difference in the way people respond to your journalism after 139 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,520 after actually telling them what you think? 140 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,400 Yeah, it's a good question. So one thing I would say to 141 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,720 British viewers and listeners is the US is very interesting in a 142 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,600 sense the reverse of the UK, right? 143 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,400 In the UK, the newspapers are all loud, boisterous, partisan 144 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,880 and the news channels are impartial and neutral, Ofcom 145 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,400 regulated. In the US, it's almost a 146 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,440 reverse. And newspapers take great pride 147 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,880 in not being partisan and having this Chinese wall between 148 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,960 opinion and news, very strict standards. 149 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,280 And then you have cable TV, which is very loud and 150 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,120 boisterous and very, very partisan. 151 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Fox on the right, kind of MSNBC on the kind of bland center 152 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,120 left, CNN pretending to be in the middle, but not really. 153 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,920 And that's an interesting dichotomy. 154 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,000 But look, my position is I found in Zeteo coming up to two years 155 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,640 ago, nearly in in April, May 2024. 156 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,280 And 1 of the things I said was we are going to take positions 157 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,360 on the big issues of the day and we are going to say things that 158 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,160 we believe to be the truth and they're backed up by fact. 159 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,400 So for example, fascism, a word that a lot of people in the US 160 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,880 media were running away from until very recently, still 161 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,200 wouldn't say the F word in relation to Donald Trump or you 162 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,000 can't say he's a fascist. The G word genocide. 163 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,920 You can't say genocide about Gaza. 164 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,080 That's that's taboo. And my position is a we're going 165 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,200 to say those words and we're not going to, you know, face any 166 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,680 consequences as many have in our media for saying those words. 167 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,280 Lost jobs over it, But also we're going to back it up with 168 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:54,720 facts. When I say genocide, Christian, 169 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,520 I'm just saying because I don't like Israel. 170 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,680 I'm interviewing Omar Batov, the preeminent scholar of genocide 171 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,520 at Brown University, an Israeli Holocaust historian, and he's 172 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,120 coming on to explain why it meets the definition of a 173 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,280 genocide. So I I, you know, it's very easy 174 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:08,560 to say, oh, people just running their views. 175 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,640 I get it. Cable news has poisoned a lot of 176 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,400 people. It's put out a lot of 177 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:13,960 propaganda, especially on the right. 178 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,840 I mean, Fox, I refuse to call it Fox News. 179 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,240 It's just a, it's just a Republican Party propaganda 180 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,240 channel. I get why people are skeptical 181 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,080 of that. But also Christian, come to the 182 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,320 US. People here are so fed up with 183 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,080 the quote UN quote MSM. They're so fed up of being lied 184 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,000 to more more than being lied to. They're fed up of being 185 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,600 patronized. Christian, they want to be 186 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,720 treated as adults. One of the reasons I succeeded 187 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,720 in the US, you know, a lot of people, I came here in 2016. 188 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,320 I worked for Al Jazeera till 2020. 189 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,039 I worked for MSNBC from 2020. People came up to me and said, 190 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,039 we like the fact that you asked tough questions. 191 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:45,320 We like the fact that you say what you mean. 192 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,040 You don't hide behind lazy euphemisms and both sides 193 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,080 bullshit. And I think people are just so 194 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,240 fed up of that, especially at a time when fascists are at the 195 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,680 door. They don't want to both sides 196 00:08:54,680 --> 00:08:56,720 fascism, they don't want to both sides genocide. 197 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,240 They want people who can just say plainly what's going on. 198 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,480 I mean, you say nobody can sack you now. 199 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,120 I mean, what what happened with MSNBCI mean? 200 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,800 Do you think there was any elements of you being too 201 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,800 difficult for them? You know that they didn't like 202 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,480 your views. So that's what some people say. 203 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,160 I worked there for 3 1/2 years. I had a great time at MSNBCI, 204 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,360 learned a lot. I got a great platform, I 205 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,160 interviewed and met a lot of interesting people. 206 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:24,480 It was a great experience. I have no regrets. 207 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,640 But at that time, they decided to cancel my shows. 208 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,320 I had two shows for them and I knew that that was a moment 209 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,360 where this was the end of 2023 and I knew that 2024 was 210 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,760 election year. There was no way I could just be 211 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:39,280 benched. They offered me to stay on and 212 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,880 be a guest host and that wasn't what he wanted to do. 213 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,280 As you know, Christian, I'm sitting here with you. 214 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:44,880 I have a lot of opinions. I have a lot of things I want to 215 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,320 say. So it was a no brainer for me 216 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,040 that I had to leave and do my own thing. 217 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,240 And actually, it's the greatest thing that ever happened to me. 218 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,400 I mean, what I mean is, you know, you mentioned CBS and 219 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,560 what's going on there under Barry Wise. 220 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,560 You know, do you think the networks and their stated 221 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:03,480 position of impartiality is true? 222 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,800 No absolute bullshit. I mean, the American media is 223 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,640 completely be clowned itself in in recent years, in recent 224 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,440 months. I mean, the reason we're in this 225 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,520 state right now with Trump consolidating power is because 226 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,240 of what happened right at the beginning of his presidency. 227 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,480 Christian, he comes into power. ABC News owned by Disney, 228 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,680 settles A lawsuit with him because George Stephanopoulos 229 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,600 literally quoted a judge in his sexual abuse case and used the 230 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,680 rape word. He sued George Stephanos. 231 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:31,360 Most lawyers think that ABC would have won that if it gone 232 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:32,880 to trial. Instead they paid, I think 233 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,200 remember at 12, thirteen, $14 million settlement. 234 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,040 Then he sued CBS News Christian for the most absurd thing that 235 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,880 anyones ever sued a news organization for editing an 236 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,080 interview of Kamala Harris he didn't like the edit of. 237 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,200 Again, every lawyer says that CBS would have won in court, but 238 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,120 CBS then in the middle of a big merger, decided to settle and 239 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,440 pay him $16,000,000. These are for the American 240 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,720 public, which has always been skeptical of a corporate control 241 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,840 media, especially on the left. I mean, this is the most brazen 242 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,000 evidence that the corporations that run these channels, the 243 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,280 Disney's and the Paramount's, they're not interested in news 244 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,960 or impartiality or the truth. They're interested in appeasing 245 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,840 the government in office, a very authoritarian government that 246 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,560 all band style and Modi style and Erdogan style has made it 247 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:13,200 clear to media organizations that you get in line or you will 248 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,640 lose out. And even the ones who aren't 249 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,320 sued, like Comcast, donate to the White House extension. 250 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,000 Yeah, there's a lot of things going on. 251 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,480 I mean, Elizabeth Warren, who's a Democratic senator, very 252 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,000 prominent, has talked about this stuff being bribery. 253 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,240 She has talked about the fact that if that if slash when 254 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,960 Democrats get back into office, they will investigate this stuff 255 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,840 as bribery. Because that's what it looks 256 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,200 like, right? That's what it looks like to the 257 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,760 average American, that you pay a bunch of money and then Donald 258 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,520 Trump allows your merger to go through. 259 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:40,640 And Trump has made this very clear. 260 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,120 So I'm involved in all these decisions. 261 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,400 I mean, the the autocracy, the authoritarianism, the corruption 262 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,080 is very brazen here in the US right now. 263 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:52,000 It's all that done in the open. Corruption's, you know, it's a 264 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,080 word that we'll have our lawyers panicking, but lots of people 265 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,560 are talking about corruption quite openly in terms of this 266 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:03,120 administration. We might, we might get onto it 267 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,880 with Gaza and what's been just announced over the the Board of 268 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,040 Peace and their plans for for expansion there as well. 269 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,200 What do you mean by corruption? I mean, that a lot of Americans 270 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,560 look at the state of our politics. 271 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,280 I mean, if you ask Americans what they're most fed up about, 272 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:21,840 it is corruption. They will say corruption. 273 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,440 It's the issue that comes up in opinion polls. 274 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,160 It's one of the main reasons Donald Trump won, ironically, 275 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,720 even though many regard him as a deeply corrupt politician. 276 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,760 People were so fed up with the system in 2016 and again in 2024 277 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,680 that they want people just to tear it all down. 278 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:36,920 And they like outsiders. And Donald Trump very cleverly, 279 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,160 very fraudulently, in my view, presented himself as an 280 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,680 outsider, even though he's a, you know, it's been inside the 281 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:44,680 system as a quote, UN quote billionaire for years. 282 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,720 New York Times Christian just yesterday did a story to mark 283 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,280 his anniversary in office saying he and him and his family have 284 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,320 made over a billion and 1/2 in, in, in, in wealth increases 285 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,360 since he came to office. It's the biggest increase in 286 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,760 wealth of any president in modern times coming to office. 287 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,560 We have his children making a lot of money out of deals. 288 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,320 We have him specifically still making money. 289 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,920 And it's, it's insane. I mean, you look at what's 290 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,800 happening in Venezuela, Krishna, the oil's coming out and it's 291 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,320 going to a Trump donor in a Qatari bank account. 292 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,600 I mean, the whole thing is absurd. 293 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,440 So there is a massive perception of corruption. 294 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,680 There's a massive frustration with corruption. 295 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,120 You have ethics organizations accusing the Trump 296 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,640 administration of corruption on a level we haven't seen in our 297 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,280 lifetimes before. And then again, yes, the media 298 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,960 is complicit in this. Instead of the media holding up, 299 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,640 you know, a light and flashing a light on all this corruption, 300 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,480 the media organizations themselves look like they're 301 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,560 corrupt too. Because again, what else do you 302 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:42,160 say when Elizabeth Warren says this looks like a bribe? 303 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,160 When Paramount and the Ellison family, who are close to Trump, 304 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,440 are paying $16,000,000 to settle a lawsuit that they don't need 305 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,840 to settle, and then they get favourable treatment for the 306 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,320 government, What are we supposed to call that? 307 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,800 So what do you think you're, you know, what is it that you're 308 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,440 doing now with this? I mean, are are you effectively 309 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,000 a political player now in advocating for the kind of world 310 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,160 you want? You know, what are you? 311 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,360 How are you trying to change the world given what your profession 312 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,680 is? It's an interesting question. 313 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,280 So I I would break it up into two parts, Krishna. 314 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,240 First of all, on the issue of fascism and the assault on our 315 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,280 democracy and the Free Press. I don't think you have to be a 316 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,400 political player to say you support truth and reality based 317 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,720 journalism. To say up is up, not up is down 318 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,480 to, you know, we live in a world where people in our media and 319 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,800 our politics and our public life, especially here in the US 320 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,680 want us to believe that up is down, hot is cold, black is 321 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,360 white. And I think simply pointing that 322 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,160 that is not true, that we are being gaslit. 323 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,160 That's not a political position. That's just speaking truth. 324 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,480 Not even to power, just speaking the truth. 325 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:46,920 But you go beyond that, don't you? 326 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,080 I mean, you know, because you're not just correcting the 327 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,120 untruths. I agree. 328 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,640 I do go beyond that. I do go beyond that, but that's 329 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,520 what I'm saying. I break into two parts. 1 is the 330 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,680 very basic mission of journalism, which we're failing 331 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,400 at, which is just speaking the truth with that is failing. 332 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,600 And that's one of the reasons I set up Zeteo to be able to speak 333 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,760 freely without having to worry about corporate boardrooms and 334 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,040 government pressure and advertiser your influence. 335 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:10,920 That's we're failing at that, right? 336 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,600 And that needs to be said. I'm fed up of people saying 337 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,560 journalists need to be neutral on every issue. 338 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,480 Actually, journalists should not be neutral on the issue of 339 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,400 democracy. Journalists should have a bias. 340 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,120 You, me, everybody in our profession, in our industry 341 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,080 should have a bias towards the truth, a bias towards reality, 342 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,480 and a bias towards democracy, because journalism cannot exist 343 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,040 without democracy. So we're not neutral players on 344 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:30,000 this. We're not sitting on some 345 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,600 hilltop watching from afar with some neutral I. 346 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,360 That's BS #2 you say I go beyond that. 347 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,760 Yes, of course I do. I'm on the left, I take 348 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,280 political positions. I'm an opinion journalist. 349 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,440 I want universal healthcare. I want an actual ceasefire, not 350 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,160 a pretend ceasefire in Gaza. You know, I want the Epstein 351 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,440 files released. I want a Supreme Court that 352 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,160 isn't packed with Trump toadies. Clearly I have political 353 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,120 positions which I don't hide. Right. 354 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,640 But, but what I mean is, are you doing what you're doing now 355 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,120 because you want to persuade people, you know, is, is, is 356 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,320 this a sort of a new, a new sort of hybrid, you know, type of 357 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,800 media that you're, you're in, you know, because you're, I 358 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,560 think you are sort of a pioneer in this. 359 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,680 That is sort of somewhere between what we used to think of 360 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,360 as the media and politics. Yeah, and I think a lot of 361 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,360 people in that space, not maybe in the exact space I'm in. 362 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:17,880 Yeah, I've always been about persuasion. 363 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,720 I literally wrote a book about persuasion. 364 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,280 So I've always believed that there's no point taking 365 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,320 positions if you can't change people's minds, if you can't 366 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,920 take people with you, if you can't help them see the world in 367 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,600 the way you see the world, otherwise, what is the point? 368 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,960 You know, I've since I was a child, I've always, you know, if 369 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,600 a tree falls out of wood and there's no one around to hear, 370 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,520 it doesn't make a sound. And I've always thought about 371 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,600 that when it comes to the news, we do a lot of interesting stuff 372 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,760 and people either don't hear it or see it, or they hear and see 373 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,480 it but don't understand it or it doesn't have any impact on them. 374 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,000 And for me, that has always been part whether whether I was a 375 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,480 commissioning editor at Channel 4, whether I was a producer at 376 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,560 Sky News, whether I was a columnist at New Statesman, 377 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,000 whether I was anchor Al Jazeera or MSNBC. 378 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,280 That's always been my position, that I want people to be able to 379 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,960 see the world the way I see it, see what needs to be said, 380 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,080 understand what's going on behind the scenes. 381 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,360 Otherwise, what is the point of everything we do? 382 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,160 I might as well pack it in and go be an accountant. 383 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:04,560 Not done anything wrong with being an accountant. 384 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,920 People seeing what you say today though, depends on, you know, to 385 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,160 some extent getting into bed with the devil, doesn't it? 386 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,160 I mean, you are dependent on on the algorithms you know, and 387 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,280 they can presumably freeze you out at some point if they want 388 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,319 to. Yeah, it's a huge problem. 389 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,440 It's why I get to come back to kind of opinion Jones. 390 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,839 One of the positions I take is that we need to regulate and 391 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:27,599 break up big tech. I mentioned Elizabeth Warren 392 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:29,520 earlier. I support the Warren Sanders 393 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,040 approach to breaking up big tech. 394 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,280 Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg 2. Human beings should not control 395 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,640 what hundreds of millions of people see in here on a daily 396 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,560 basis. That is clearly undemocratic. 397 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,200 That is clearly illiberal and I think we need to do something 398 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,120 about it. The public space, the public 399 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:44,480 town square, whatever you want to call it. 400 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,960 One thing I would say, and I'll give a shout out here to Sub 401 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,080 Stack Zeteo is on the Sub Stack platform, which is a newsletter 402 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,280 platform for those of you who don't know. 403 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,400 And you know, it is has a much better commitment to free speech 404 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,240 than most of these oligarchs out of Silicon Valley. 405 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,480 It's why we're here and also we control our subscriptions, we 406 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,840 control our newsletter, we control our subscribers. 407 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,080 So, you know, today we have over 600,000 subscribers in the US 408 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,240 and around the world. You know, God forbid the tech 409 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,120 companies decide to illiberally and undemocratically and cut us 410 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,600 off. We can still survive just with 411 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,400 our 600 subscribers, 600,000 subscribers to our newsletter. 412 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,280 We also have a million and a half subscribers on YouTube. 413 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,280 Clearly, Google could screw us with that. 414 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:27,040 So to what extent do you have to provide people with what does 415 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,000 well on YouTube? You know, does that skew your 416 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,360 editorial values? It's, it's no, it's a good 417 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,200 question, Christian, because a lot of people in the independent 418 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,880 space, they'll say stuff like, I'm completely independent, 419 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,880 unlike the corporate people. I've never gone down that road. 420 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,360 I, I try and be self aware. I know what you're getting at. 421 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,800 It is very hard even in the independent space to be truly 422 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,120 independent in the sense that there is the danger of audience 423 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,680 capture, right? We are playing to a subscription 424 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:49,840 base. I know I have subscribers. 425 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,120 I'll give you one example. When the election happened at 426 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,880 the end of 2024, our subscribers as a tear of a very split, 427 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,240 right. We had a bunch of people saying 428 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,280 Trump is the menace, we need to get behind Harris and we need to 429 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,720 stop Trump. That is what all of your 430 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,400 journalism should be about. And then we had a bunch of 431 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,000 people saying the genocide is the biggest issue. 432 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,240 There's no way we can do anything other than oppose 433 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,320 Harris and Biden. Doesn't matter if Trump wins, 434 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:11,920 Democrats have to be punished for a genocide. 435 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,520 And we lost a lot of subscribers on both sides, people who are 436 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,120 not happy with our journalism from either direction. 437 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:18,920 I remember seeing people cancelling their subscriptions. 438 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,880 Now, a lot of independent media platforms in that position and 439 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,200 say, well, let's just give the people what they want. 440 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Now separately, I couldn't give them what they want because we 441 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,160 had a split base. But but that is a danger, right, 442 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,000 That you're a small business. We're a small business. 443 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,280 I'm a businessman now as well as a journalist is a weird thing to 444 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:32,520 say. And I have to think about 445 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:33,600 revenue. I have to think about the people 446 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,400 I employ. I have to think about 447 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,280 subscriptions. And I think, well, you know, if 448 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,920 people are cancelling because they don't like what I'm saying, 449 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,800 should I change what I'm saying? That clearly is an ethical, 450 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,400 journalistic and professional dilemma that and it's and it 451 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,440 would be, it would be ridiculous for me to pretend that's not the 452 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,720 case for everyone in the independent space, especially 453 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,640 with YouTube and the algorithms and the way people have to play 454 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,800 to the algorithms. We haven't gone YouTube first. 455 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,720 Right now, our priority is still the newsletter, which is what 456 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,680 we've built up. We have built up an audience on 457 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,080 YouTube, as I say, of over a million and a half. 458 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,800 And yeah, you know, you think about, of course, you think 459 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,080 about what does well on YouTube. Of course you think about what 460 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,120 kind of tone and style does well on YouTube. 461 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,560 We all adopt different. You know, habits and approaches 462 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,080 to different platforms. I don't think there's anything 463 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,480 wrong with that. That's not being 2 faced. 464 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,040 That's just meeting people where they are. 465 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,000 I mean, I'm sitting with you right now on a podcast wearing a 466 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,080 hoodie. Yesterday, Tuesday night, I was 467 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,680 in DC interviewing congressman on stage. 468 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,200 I was in a suit and tie, right? You know, that's, this is this 469 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,960 is this, this is that. So I, I, you know, I get it. 470 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,040 It is a danger to go down a road where you're just playing to one 471 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,680 particular platform or algorithm and we try and resist that, but 472 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,640 we're not always successful. I'll be honest about that. 473 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,680 And you have a sort of a bit of a double act going with, with 474 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,680 Piers Morgan, which I presume help both your audience base, 475 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,240 you know, pull in both your audience bases. 476 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,400 Yeah, I mean, he's, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a juggernaut on 477 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,440 YouTube. There's no debate about that. 478 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,160 I, I did a debate. I I did an interview with him 479 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,200 after they bombed Lebanon, I remember and it went viral where 480 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,320 I kind of, he didn't know when Hezbollah was founded. 481 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,440 And we went back and forth and then I flew to Malaysia for a 482 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,000 conference and all these Malaysians came up to me and 483 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,160 said literally 1 after in different places, oh, we watched 484 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,880 you and Peers book. And I was like, wow, I don't 485 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,280 want to inflate his ego even more, but I did text him and say 486 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,160 peers are people in Malaysia talking about how the row we 487 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,320 just had. And again, that is a phenomenon, 488 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,600 right? That is that is, you know, what 489 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,080 Peers has done on YouTube is create a media company that has 490 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,600 a global reach in a very short space of time. 491 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,240 And more people watch that. When I go on Piers Morgan, I get 492 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,880 more feedback from people in the street than I get from when I go 493 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,600 on CNN or MSNBC or the BBC. And that's the reality we live 494 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,920 in now. And people say, oh, why do you 495 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,880 go on Piers Morgan? People who hate him will say why 496 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,280 he's awful. Friends and families don't go on 497 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,040 Piers Morgan. And I'll be, but it's a big 498 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,400 platform again to come back to my tree falls and I would why 499 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,440 would I not want to get my views across on a big platform? 500 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Now I do have a hygiene test. I don't go on Fox. 501 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,160 They have a big platform, but I wouldn't go on Fox. 502 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,720 Let's rewind a little bit and work out sort of where your 503 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,840 views come from. You, you, you posted a, you 504 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,000 know, a, a moving post about your father who passed away 505 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,200 recently. And it was, it was very explicit 506 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,720 that you are the product of of his journey. 507 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,520 My father was an immigrant who moved to the UK in in 1966 and 508 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,320 he moved from India. And he taught me a lot of what I 509 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,200 know about politics and what I think about the world. 510 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,680 And, you know, as we're all human beings, Christian, and we 511 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,160 come from different places, our values, our opinions. 512 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,240 You know, I have a mother, a father of siblings, friends, 513 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:25,560 school, religion. I take from all those places. 514 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,680 But yes, the kind of passion against, you know, the burning 515 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,080 passion to fight injustice that I believe I have and I, that 516 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,600 motivates a lot of what I do, I do think comes from my dad. 517 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,400 You know, he was talking about politics and labor politics and 518 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,000 Harold Wilson and Clement Attlee when I was 678 years old. 519 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,320 He was talking about the Middle East, you know, and what was 520 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,120 going on, unfortunately in Palestine even back then in the 521 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,360 1980s when I was a kid. So I did take a lot about that 522 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,440 and speaking truth to power and debating. 523 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,680 I wrote a book about debate Christian. 524 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,400 And in the introductory, you know, in the in the intro, I say 525 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,360 very clearly, like a lot of people say, where does this come 526 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,920 from? Your knack and your obsession 527 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,760 with debating? It comes from my father of my 528 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,600 house. I grew up in a very disputatious 529 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,880 household. You know, one of my earliest 530 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,880 memories about, you know, politics and controversy. 531 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:13,360 And I tell the story in the book is, do you remember in the late 532 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,600 80s, you know, people in Muslims in Bradford are burning copies 533 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,760 of The Satanic Verses. Salma Rushdesberg, my dad buys a 534 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,960 copy, puts it on our bookshelf in the dining room. 535 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,800 And Muslim friends of ours are coming over and going crazy. 536 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,400 Like, what are you doing? Why do you have this book in 537 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:27,880 your house? And he would say, well, how can 538 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,560 you condemn it if you haven't read it, right? 539 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,400 Have you read it? And that that mentality that can 540 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,360 slight contrarianism, that ability to poke holes in 541 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:38,760 people's arguments definitely does come from my dad. 542 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,000 Yes. You, you talked about, you know, 543 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,920 how he, he came to Britain but held onto his love of India. 544 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,840 He refused to be sort of defined in anyone religious, political, 545 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,240 nationalistic tradition. And I suppose you're doing the 546 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,120 same. But you've but you've left 547 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,960 Britain. And I just wonder why, you know, 548 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:08,000 did you find Britain too small, too boring, too insular? 549 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:11,000 You're putting words in my mouth. 550 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,760 Krishna will get me in trouble. Let me. 551 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,560 Well, look, it is very strange to always have to define myself 552 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,360 these days as an immigrant because I grew up saying I was. 553 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:21,000 I'm not an immigrant. You know when racist used to say 554 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,520 go back to India, I'm born here, I'm from Swindon. 555 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,120 You've made yourself an immigrant again. 556 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,240 Well, what's interesting now, Christian, is we've we've we've 557 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,880 advanced in the world of racism. Now people told me to go back to 558 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,440 the UK. I'm like, oh, what an insult 559 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,440 that is. Like, yeah, you have American 560 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,400 right wingers tell you, I have members of Congress, Republicans 561 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,040 saying get out, we're going to deport you to the UK. 562 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,840 Oh, how painful. We've kind of made some advances 563 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:41,880 there. They haven't told me to go back 564 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,560 to India, but, yeah, I am an immigrant now. 565 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,360 So I do get the racism that my dad got in the 60s, different 566 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,640 kind of racism. My dad got the kind of dog 567 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,320 excrement pushed through the letterbox. 568 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,320 I get Republican members of Congress saying I'm a jihadist 569 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,280 and I should be de naturalized. So this is the world we live in 570 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,560 now. Yeah. 571 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,240 Why did I do it? It's a great question. 572 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,200 Well, my wife's American, so I've talked openly about the 573 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,360 fact that, you know, she wanted to do a move and. 574 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,200 And I and I wanted to try out working in the US Christian, you 575 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,640 know that British journalists have long, you know, tried, 576 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,280 tried their hand at doing stuff in the US You mentioned Piers 577 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,440 Morgan, he had a rather interesting, partly successful 578 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,400 than disastrous journey at CNN. Actually, I remember going into 579 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,920 a big job interview, a major network here in the US and the 580 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,280 person behind the desk said, why would we hire another British 581 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,480 anchor? We already had Piers Morgan, 582 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,160 which was a kind of funny story. But then I ended up at MSNBC and 583 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,200 I would say Christian without wanting to kind of shit all over 584 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,400 the UK, which I love. I'm still a proud Brit as much 585 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,680 as a proud American. There is no denying the fact 586 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,560 that America is a bigger country with more opportunity, 587 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,360 especially for non white people. It's ironic that we talk so much 588 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:44,680 about racism in the US and the anti black racism. 589 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,520 The legacy of slavery is massive, don't get me wrong, but 590 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,400 if you're a non white immigrant here, it is more meritocratic. 591 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,440 There are more opportunities, including in the media, not just 592 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,240 in the media, across industries. And I do think if I'd been in 593 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,800 the UK, would I be where I am today? 594 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:58,920 Would I be running my own business? 595 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,960 Probably not Would I have had a prime time show on national TV? 596 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,240 Probably not. So I do think there are more 597 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,560 opportunities for people here. And I think people like my good 598 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,080 friend Riz when he did his Channel 4 speech talked about 599 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,520 this a few years ago. I think people like Idris Elba, 600 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,040 you know, people in Hollywood have also talked about this, non 601 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,280 the non white roles and non white opportunities in the US 602 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,120 for people in media, in entertainment, in IT. 603 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,200 There is more opportunity here, weirdly and kind of 604 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,280 counterintuitively in many ways. So, with a bit of distance, do 605 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,280 do do you think Britain is a lot more racist within its 606 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,280 establishments than it likes to think? 607 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,520 Yes, 100%. When I don't think I fully 608 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,320 realised it till I moved here, which is a weird thing to say 609 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,120 because America's going through a very racist moment. 610 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,600 But as I say, it's a different kind of racism in terms of kind 611 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,480 of the workplace, in terms of rewarding talent. 612 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,880 I do think it's much more open here and there are many more 613 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,640 opportunities. I mean, clearly the size issue, 614 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,640 it's a big place, but also it's a mentality issue. 615 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,520 And I think the UKI think about, for example, when I worked for 616 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,480 the New Statesman and I was a political actor, but I never 617 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:05,920 went to the lobby. We had a separate journalist who 618 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,160 would go and get the lobby pass. And for people not watching the 619 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,440 lobby is the Downing St. press corps who spend their time at 620 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,280 #10 And I remember we did a feature, The New Statesman about 621 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,600 the lobby and about, you know, coverage of media. 622 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,760 And it was, you know, it was all about how all white it was. 623 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,360 And you know, this Christian, because you're one of the, you 624 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,760 know, you're one of the people who've broken so many barriers 625 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,440 in the UK media. You've been presenting on 626 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,040 Channel 4 News for decades. I don't even know how long. 627 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,240 I feel like you've always been there ever since I was alive. 628 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,120 Sorry to sorry to make you sound old, but you, you know, you were 629 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,600 one of the rare faces when people back 20 years ago when 630 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:35,920 people said, I don't know, brown people on TV. 631 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,840 You would be like one of the three people you can name check. 632 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,760 And before you, I think it was Zainab Badawi. 633 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,800 So, you know, I look at the Downing St. press code. 634 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,040 I remember it being very, very white. 635 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,160 And I talked to a friend of mine recently and it hasn't changed 636 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,000 that much. I mean, there's Shahab Khan and 637 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,800 others, ITV, but it's still pretty, pretty white. 638 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,920 And I think we, you know, that conversation has not really 639 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,480 happened in the UK as it should do in America. 640 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:57,760 People say you're obsessed with race. 641 00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,760 I think that's a good thing. The more you talk about racism 642 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,400 racism, the better chance you have of overcoming it. 643 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,960 Yes, I mean, I suppose the, the, the one difference when when I 644 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,680 think about the two countries though at the moment for 645 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,480 somebody like you who cares passionately about democracy is 646 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,040 that democracy doesn't feel under threat in Britain. 647 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,080 But if you look at America, you you wonder how long it's going 648 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,680 to be a democracy. Oh, 100% I'm the person who's 649 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,160 been screaming about democracy in America for years now and I 650 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,520 I'm the person on the record saying Donald Trump probably 651 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,320 won't leave in 2028. I have no, I would not shock me 652 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:31,960 at all if he tries to run again or if he tries to cancel or 653 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,400 postpone elections. I think American democracy faces 654 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,360 an existential threat. It has since he came down there 655 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:39,920 escalator in May of 2015. There's no doubt about that. 656 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,520 But let's not be complacent in the UK. 657 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,960 You know, we know that when, you know, America sneezes, the UK 658 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,320 catches a cold or whatever the phrases. 659 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,760 We know that traditionally American politics has been 660 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,920 followed the trends here very quickly by the UK, whether it's 661 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,240 Reagan and Thatcher, Clinton and Blair. 662 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,160 We know that whether it's Brexit and Trump, we know there are 663 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,400 parallels between our two countries. 664 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,040 And I think it would be weird to be complacent about the fact 665 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,520 that, yes, the UK right now does not face an existential threat 666 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,680 to democracy. But the trend lines are very 667 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,280 clear. I mean, you're having hundreds 668 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,240 of people who are protesting peacefully being picked up by 669 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,120 the police. You have pensioners and elderly 670 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,080 people because they hold up Palestine in action. 671 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,480 They're getting picked up. I'm I'm watching images of 672 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,080 priests and little old ladies and people in wheelchairs being 673 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,360 dragged away by police, right? That is a threat to democracy. 674 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,440 You're watching people like Nigel Farage leading in the 675 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,000 polls, about to win the next election apparently, if the 676 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,040 polls are to be believed, a super illiberal party, their 677 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,360 reform, which is a great fan of the Donald Trump MAGA party. 678 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,720 So I think the trend lines in the UK are not very good. 679 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,560 I don't think they're good anywhere across the Western 680 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,840 democratic world, to be honest. So you don't, you don't feel a a 681 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:48,080 sort of sense of duty to come back and fight Nigel Farage on 682 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,120 on your channel. It's funny. 683 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,080 So it's so, it's so funny. You should say. 684 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:52,800 Well, no. I mean, I'm happy to interview 685 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,560 reform people and I have in the past and we're trying to get 686 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,680 actually an Al Jazeera interview going with a reform politician 687 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,240 hopefully soon. But but let me just say this, in 688 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,280 the first few years after I moved to the USI moved to the US 689 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,880 in 2015. In the first few years I went 690 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,080 back, fellow journalists and people you and I know and 691 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,920 friends and family would say to me when are you coming back? 692 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,200 When are you coming back? No one says that to me anymore. 693 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,560 Is that weird? So I think that says a lot about 694 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,160 the UK, not the USI think that says a lot about people in the 695 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,120 UK, especially non white people in the UK who are wondering 696 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,880 about their own long term futures in that country. 697 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,920 Yeah, that's conversation people are having. 698 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,360 It's not quite packing the suitcase yet, but. 699 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,880 No, but it's but it's people thinking what I might be here, 700 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,040 but is there a future for my kids here and my grandkids here? 701 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,120 If I think over the last year, I mean you, you've, you've 702 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,320 certainly been most vocal and most active on Israel, Gaza 703 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,640 again in terms of sort of what you're achieving. 704 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,040 Do you feel you've won people over in any sense? 705 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,440 Attract people to the argument. I do, actually. 706 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,800 I say it for two reasons. One is the big picture, which is 707 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,600 not just me. You just look at the big picture 708 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,840 of American public opinion. We're seeing things we've never 709 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,640 seen in our lifetimes. I never thought I would see 710 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,480 polling showing more American sympathize with Palestinians and 711 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,040 Israelis. I never thought I would see 712 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,760 polling showing a majority of Americans are now critical of 713 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,200 Israel. I never thought I would see 714 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,560 polling showing half of Americans say it's a genocide. 715 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,680 I never saw polling saying that only. 716 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,200 I think it's only 8% of Democrats are happy with their 717 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,040 party's support for Israel. I think that is a massive sea 718 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,520 change in public opinion. Obviously, partly that's just 719 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,880 due to the horrific genocide that has been live streamed to 720 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,840 our phones for over 2 years. But partly it's due to the 721 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,320 advocacy from a lot of us trying very hard to go out, whether 722 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,160 it's on CNN or Piers Morgan or live debate stages in Toronto 723 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,680 and New York, as I have, and trying to convince people and 724 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,280 point out to them that you don't know what's happening in the 725 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,360 Middle East. You haven't been told a full 726 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,680 history of what's happening in Gaza. 727 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,480 The world did not begin on October the 7th. 728 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,640 And I think that has had an impact. 729 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,960 And again, that's the big picture. 730 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,640 But I can also give you anecdotal data. 731 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,840 I've had people message me on social media through Zeteo 732 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,920 saying I had no idea about any of this stuff. 733 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,680 I used to be someone who was either neutral or pro Israel. 734 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,840 And over the last two years, your content has helped me 735 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,040 understand what's really happening. 736 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,600 And the reason I know we're having an impact is because 737 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,480 guess what they're trying to do? I mentioned the Ellison family, 738 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,560 they're buying TikTok. And what are they buying TikTok 739 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:10,400 for? To stop China? 740 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,640 No, they've been very brazen about it. 741 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,560 Mitt Romney said on stage TikTok is too pro Palestinian, that 742 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,680 Benjamin Netanyahu said the big war we have right now is to take 743 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,000 control of TikTok or words to that effect. 744 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,960 And I think that again is a reminder, Krishnan, that they've 745 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,120 lost the PR battle. They've lost the debate online 746 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,840 and in public and in politics and in the media, the pro 747 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,240 Israel, pro genocide side. And I think that fills me with a 748 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,200 little bit of hope, even in these dark times. 749 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,200 And that Elson wants wants CNN as well, doesn't he? 750 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,400 Yes he does. And Can you imagine AUS media 751 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,680 landscape in which Elon Musk Trump Trump supporter controls 752 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,520 Twitter ex Mark Zuckerberg now de facto a Trump supporter 753 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,600 controlling Facebook, Meta, WhatsApp, Instagram, the Ellison 754 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,880 family, the most pro Trump pro Israel billionaire family around 755 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,280 controlling CBS News, possibly CNN TikTok. 756 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,320 Obviously Fox and Rupert Murdoch have always been in the can. 757 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,360 It's a very, very dangerous climate. 758 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,480 I I said this, I said this two years ago that what it's going 759 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,240 to look like authoritarianism in America. 760 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,000 It's not going to be Jack boots and concentration camps day one. 761 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,600 It's going to be Orban style. It's going to be Modi style. 762 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,280 It's going to be Erdogan style. The The leader gets his 763 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,360 billionaire friends to buy up all the media, right? 764 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:19,880 And that's what's happening here. 765 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,920 So do you, do you think the traditional media structures are 766 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,720 effectively dead in America and that the future is, is is is 767 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,840 kind of going your way? Yeah, I think they're 768 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,520 exaggerating when they say people say it's dead. 769 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,800 Clearly millions of people still watch the nightly news, still 770 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,880 watch cable news, still read the New York Times. 771 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,720 Clearly the people who matter. Christian, this is another 772 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,000 point, right? It doesn't matter how few sales 773 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,440 the New York Times does, as long as people in power still reading 774 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,000 the opinion pages and still taking their cues from the front 775 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,560 pages. So clearly they still have 776 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,480 influence and relevance. It would be insane to pretend 777 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,400 otherwise. But the trend line for them is 778 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,600 bad. I worked at MSNBC. 779 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,160 I saw all the data. I saw all the ratings. 780 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,480 I sat in all the meetings with people pulling their hair out 781 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,680 about what's what's the future of cable news. 782 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,160 You know, nobody under the age of 30 has cable. 783 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,000 Nobody on my team has cable. When I was working at MSNBC, 784 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,760 none of the young producers at MSNBC had cable, right. 785 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,239 So the the trend line is bad and there's a trust issue and 786 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,400 there's a technological issue where people cutting the cable. 787 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,040 So that makes it very hard for media to survive. 788 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,199 I think Donald Trump separately has done huge damage to the 789 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,280 media's reputation in terms of just spending ten years non-stop 790 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:24,520 relentlessly attacking the media. 791 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,480 He's taken 30% of the population and they will never trust the 792 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,840 media ever again. They are lost. 793 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,960 At least one in three Americans is completely lost to mainstream 794 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,560 media. And therefore, look, I said this 795 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,639 the other day on stage in DC, we had a big live event for Zeteo. 796 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,360 And I said, look, the fact that CBS News is imploding is great 797 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,159 for Zeteo. It's great for me as a 798 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,560 businessman. It's bad for me as an American, 799 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:45,080 right? I don't want the mainstream 800 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,840 media to die. I don't, I don't think, I don't 801 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,400 think for me to survive the mainstream media to die. 802 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,560 I think the mainstream media still has important reporting on 803 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,040 huge events, especially around the world. 804 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,280 It's not good for American democracy if the media is dying 805 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,280 and everyone hates the media. But clearly independent media is 806 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,800 going to thrive at a time when corporate media is so brazenly 807 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,520 failing. But but can you survive in all? 808 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,240 Sorry, Christian. Gaza, by the way, has played a 809 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:07,920 big role in that right, big role, especially on the left. 810 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,080 Right people spent two. I know people who were very 811 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,960 mainstream liberals, not lefties. 812 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,520 Nothing. And they just cancelled the New 813 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,240 York Times subscriptions because they're just so fed up of seeing 814 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,080 the mismatch between the genocide on their phones and the 815 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,040 bullshit evasions and both sides in in the headlines of the Times 816 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,840 or the coverage on CNN, etcetera. 817 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,720 If your warnings are correct, though, about American 818 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:32,360 democracy, they can shut you down. 819 00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:35,440 People said to me when Trump was elected, this is great for you, 820 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,640 good for business, you'll have so much content. 821 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,440 And I said, yeah, if Immediate survives, I'll have great 822 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,520 content. And I'm under no illusions about 823 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,240 the threat we face. We have to spend way more money 824 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,400 now on liability coverage and insurance because we live a 825 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,000 little serious climate where Trump and Musk sue people into 826 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,040 oblivion. That's another form of 827 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,720 intimidation against the Free Press. 828 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,000 We have the DOJ going after journalists. 829 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,760 The FBI just raided the home of a Washington Post journalist and 830 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080 took her laptop and phones. And guess who didn't say 831 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,360 anything about it? Jeff Bezos, the billionaire 832 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,000 owner of the Washington Post, now a close ally of Trump, SAT 833 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,960 quietly, didn't say a word of outrage or objection. 834 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,440 So this is the world we live. I'm under no illusions of the 835 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,160 threats we face. I'm under no illusions of the 836 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,480 threats to our personal safety and security, to the viability 837 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,600 of our companies and our media organisations. 838 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,400 Yeah, I don't know how much more to scream it out loud. 839 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,720 This is, is really bad. It was amusing to me, Christian, 840 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:26,720 when I saw a British journalist over the last few days, you 841 00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:29,200 know, clutching pearls, saying, oh, my God, Donald Trump, he's 842 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,640 acting so erratically and reckless. 843 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,600 I'm like, yeah, welcome to our world. 844 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,680 Keep up. Yeah. 845 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,200 I mean, do you, do you take any hope from the reaction of 846 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:43,400 American cities to ICE or do you think those people prepared to 847 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,400 stand up to ICE are, you know, for wants of a better phrase, 848 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,880 the usual suspects? No, no, not the usual suspects 849 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,000 at all. And I think people watching a 850 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,920 white mother who dropped her kid to school being killed in cold 851 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,680 blood, I think was a transformative moment for a lot 852 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,600 of Americans. They used to see black and brown 853 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,200 people abused by law enforcement. 854 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,720 Look, I would say two things about that. 855 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,080 One is obviously I'm hopeful when I see people power, the 856 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,200 thing that keeps me most hopeful is people, right? 857 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,880 Real people, separate to all the stuff that goes on online. 858 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,680 And if you look at the polling that I mentioned at the start of 859 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,440 our conversation, Trump is underwater on every issue, 860 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,240 including on ICE and on immigration, hugely water, even 861 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,640 even a small minority of Republicans have turned him on 862 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,080 on that, according to the polls. People are unhappy. 863 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,560 They're seeing this fascist militia terrorize American 864 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,680 citizens, not just immigrants on our streets, not just 865 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,080 undocumented immigrants, I should add. 866 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,840 And it's changing minds. And I think it would be bad in 867 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,080 any normal election. The problem, Krishnan, this is 868 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,760 where my head crashes up to my heart. 869 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,960 My heart says, yes, hope. I'm inspired by people taking 870 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,880 action. I'm inspired by people turning 871 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,600 against fascism. My head says, yeah, but is that 872 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,000 going to work if we don't have a free and fair election? 873 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,880 And how come that Donald Trump is so relaxed about how 874 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,480 unpopular is? A lot of people have made this 875 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,920 point, Krishnan, in any normal political climate, right, you're 876 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,600 this unpopular. Donald Trump just had his most 877 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,880 unpopular poll ever this week. If you're that unpopular, your 878 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,760 strategist come in and you do a reboot. 879 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,920 You do a relaunch, you pivot away, you sack some people, you 880 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,680 stop doing unpopular things. These people are doubling down 881 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,840 on their ICE stuff. They're doubling down on their 882 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,800 foreign imperialism. Why is that? 883 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,840 Is that because they know we're not going to have another free 884 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:16,920 and fair election in that country? 885 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,240 Is it because they're relaxed about the outcome of the next 886 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:20,880 election? Sorry to sound like a conspiracy 887 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,880 theorist, but Donald Trump, especially post Epstein, has 888 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,640 turned even me into a conspiracy theorist. 889 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,880 And to bring it back to Britain again, I mean, have you, have 890 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,080 you been watching, thinking why aren't people making this 891 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,440 argument on immigration at a time when immigration has become 892 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,400 one of the big motivating factors in political 893 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,560 disaffection and the growth of the rights and the success of 894 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,800 Nigel Farage and Reform? Yeah, I, I, I feel like, I, I 895 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,680 feel like I want to bang my head against the wall, like watching 896 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,040 the UK right now. As you know, I was a journalist 897 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,840 there for nearly 15 years before I moved. 898 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,240 It's deja vu. I mean, I feel like I've seen 899 00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,240 this movie before. I mean, Keir Starmer, Tony 900 00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,320 Blair, I mean he's Tony Blair without any charm. 901 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,560 But that the whole, the whole Blair ISM mantra of a kind of 902 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,720 triangulating and stealing the rights clothes and then seeing 903 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:08,160 it backfire in front of our eyes. 904 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,680 We've seen this movie before. We saw it in 2000 and 78910. 905 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,000 We saw it with Tony Blair and asylum seekers. 906 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,280 We saw it with Gordon Brown and British jobs for British 907 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:17,440 workers. How did that work out? 908 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,600 It worked out with the Tories winning the election. 909 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,360 It worked out with UKIP on the rise pre reform. 910 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,640 Those, those are my political memories of the UK, UK. 911 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,240 And now I see the whole thing happening again. 912 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:29,360 The Keir Starmer is the greatest gift you could ever give Nigel 913 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,000 Farage. With this Labour government in 914 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,920 office, doing what they're doing, we're almost guaranteed a 915 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,240 reform government next time around. 916 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:38,560 And that's why I do admire people like Zach Polanski trying 917 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,480 to reinvigorate a kind of a minor party like the Green Party 918 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,480 by speaking more plainly and honestly and authentically about 919 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,240 these issues. You don't look one. 920 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,760 The one basic lesson I've learned about politics over 25 921 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,520 years is you can't meet fascists halfway. 922 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,880 People don't vote for fascists light right, They vote for the 923 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,920 real thing. You can do your best 924 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,560 impersonation of Donald Trump if you're a Democrat, or Nigel 925 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,240 Farage if you're a Labour Party politician. 926 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,600 And it will not work in the long term. 927 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,440 Maybe in the short term it will, but certainly not in the long 928 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,760 term. And that's why the trends in the 929 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,560 UK are so bad. And we need people who can stand 930 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,320 up to these illiberate, illiberal, autocratic, nativist 931 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,600 trends. I mean that that's an argument 932 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,560 as to why Labour might be getting it wrong, but how? 933 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200 How would you take on Farage and his basic argument? 934 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,440 Well, tell me what his basic argument you think is. 935 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,560 Well, I mean if, if, if, if so many roads to the problems of 936 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,760 Britain lead to immigration, whether it's housing, health 937 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:38,720 service, public services in in their terms and it's persuasive 938 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,680 to a lot of people. How do you change people's 939 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,480 minds? So, I mean, it's a great 940 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,120 question. I've read a book about changing 941 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,960 people's lives, a tough one. I'm not pretending there's an 942 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,880 easy answer in immigration. I would say that I question your 943 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,200 premise, right? I don't accept that the issues 944 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,560 of housing and health are driven by immigration. 945 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,440 They're driven by austerity. Health services driven by 946 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,600 austerity. We had 10 years of austerity, 947 00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,880 the worst austerity in living memory. 948 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,160 I wrote a book about austerity in 2011, warning about the 949 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,000 dangers of austerity politically and economically. 950 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,800 Osborne and Cameron, you know, we talk about Boris Johnson is 951 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,080 trust for me, the villains of the story are still David 952 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,480 Cameron and George Osborne, who laid the groundwork both for 953 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,280 austerity and Brexit. And I think that's where we are 954 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,800 today. And I think you've got to start 955 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,200 by first questioning the premise that immigrants are to blame. 956 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,320 There's a fascinating poll, Krishna, that's always done. 957 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,160 I haven't seen the latest one in the UK, but when I lived in the 958 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,480 UK, every year it was the same. I think it was from Gallup. 959 00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:28,800 That shows if you ask the British public are you bothered 960 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,000 about immigration, Do you think immigrant immigration is a 961 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,400 problem for the UK, They will say yes it is. 962 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,600 And if you say do you think it's a problem in your local area, 963 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,840 they say no it isn't. And that disconnect is very 964 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,200 simple. That disconnect is politicians 965 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,520 aided by the media, the right wing media in particular the 966 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,040 mails and expresses fanning the flames of this issue and making 967 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,160 it into something that is abstract and out there and a 968 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,000 boogeyman to be blamed rather than billionaires and corporate 969 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,960 boardrooms and right wing politicians. 970 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,520 And I think you've got to start if you're going to win this 971 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,280 debate. You first thing about winning a 972 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,000 debate is you don't fight the debate. 973 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,200 You don't fight on your opponent's terrain, right? 974 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,920 You fight on your own terrain. You don't accept the premises of 975 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,080 the motion set out by your opponent, to use a debate 976 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:10,360 phrase. And then that's what has to 977 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:11,600 happen. The problem we have with Labour 978 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:13,800 and even to an extent the Lib Dems and other parties is 979 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,560 they've accepted the Farage and Bader not framing that 980 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,400 everything all Rd. lead back to immigration. 981 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:20,800 And you have to actually reframe the fight. 982 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,800 The British public, like the American public, like the French 983 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,960 public, they're angry, they're pissed off. 984 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,240 You have to give them somewhere to direct their anger. 985 00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:30,160 The right have decided to direct that anger towards migrants and 986 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,640 the left are saying actually maybe direct that anger towards 987 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,000 the people who have really screwed you over. 988 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,400 The point 1%. And when it comes to Gaza, I 989 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,640 mean, you know, Gaza has fallen off the international news 990 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:46,440 agenda to a large degree since, except today, except today, that 991 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,600 time of recording where we've just seen Jared Kushner unveil 992 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:55,560 the the the Riviera of the Middle East as they always saw 993 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,040 it with mock ups of skyscrapers along the beach and little 994 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,240 housing complexes for the Garzans through the strip. 995 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,440 You know, a, do you think, do you think it's going to happen 996 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,400 now in a way that perhaps you didn't before? 997 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,120 Because they seem to be pressing ahead with it and and will they 998 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,120 get away with it? When you say the houses for the 999 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,960 Gazans, of course these are the gardens who are allowed to stay 1000 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,440 behind, right? This is a plan for ethnic 1001 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:22,680 cleansing. Everyone knows this. 1002 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,200 When I went on Piers Morgan to go back to our Morgan exchange, 1003 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,320 one of the things he said to me back in his very pro Israel 1004 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,960 time, he's moved a bit was well, you know, they're fighting 1005 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,200 terrorism. What else do you think they're 1006 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,160 doing? And I said they're trying to 1007 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,440 depopulate Gaza. And at the time, to many on the 1008 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,720 right, many in mainstream media who hadn't heard this argument 1009 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:37,840 sounded like a conspiracy theory. 1010 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,120 But the Israelis have made that very clear. 1011 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,080 You know that Channel 4 News has done excellent reporting from 1012 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,800 Israel, interviewing Israeli politician to a very, very open 1013 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,040 about the fact that their goal is ethnic cleansing and the 1014 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,360 depopulation of Gaza. One of the great failures, 1015 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,280 Christian of mainstream media, and I'm going to exempt Channel 1016 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,640 4 News from this is the inability to actually just 1017 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,360 report what Israelis are saying, right? 1018 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,520 People like me sound like some crazy person saying ethnic 1019 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,000 cleansing. You can't say ethnic cleansing. 1020 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:00,880 You can't say genocide. Well, listen to what Israeli 1021 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,280 politicians say. The Israeli media is more honest 1022 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,200 than a lot of the American and British media when it comes to 1023 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,280 Israel. So just listen to what Netanyahu 1024 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,760 and his cabinet ministers are saying and it's very clear what 1025 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,920 the goals are Always been Listen to what Jared Kushner has always 1026 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,280 been saying. He talked about the Riviera and 1027 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,520 the Gaza a while ago. Donald Trump loves talking about 1028 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,800 real estate. By the way, Jared Kushner is not 1029 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,920 an elected official. He's not even an appointed 1030 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,200 official in the first term. He was an advisor in the wife. 1031 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,280 He's just a private businessman. And the son-in-law of the 1032 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,280 president, how is this not to go back to the word you used or you 1033 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,200 were worried about me using corruption? 1034 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,040 How is this not corrupt morally, if not financially for the 1035 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,440 son-in-law of the president? Where are we in some kind of 1036 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,960 Banana Republic? The son-in-law of the president 1037 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,120 is leading on this issue. He stands potentially to gain, 1038 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,880 like all Trump family members from whatever deals his family's 1039 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,400 been invested in settlement businesses in the West Bank. 1040 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,920 I know years ago, he's so close to Netanyahu. 1041 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,360 Christian, let me just tell you, listen to this. 1042 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,840 When Jared was a boy, Benjamin Netanyahu just come and stay in 1043 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,320 his father's home in New Jersey. I think it was New Jersey. 1044 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,240 He used to stay and he used to sleep in Jared's bed, not with 1045 00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:00,600 Jared in it, Jared to sleep in another room. 1046 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,680 But Jim Benjamin Netanyahu used to come stay in their house. 1047 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,000 That's how complicit these people are. 1048 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,840 This idea that this board of peace has any interest in peace 1049 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,480 or justice or ending an occupation or helping the 1050 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,280 Palestinians. There are no Palestinians on the 1051 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,280 executive board, Krishnan, and they've invited Netanyahu to be 1052 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,560 on the board. Can you imagine if we had a 1053 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,200 Board of peace in Ukraine and international Board of peace and 1054 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,640 we invited Putin to be on the board of peace? 1055 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,840 But do you think it will happen because there was always there's 1056 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,400 always a temptation with a lot of these statements Trump makes 1057 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,960 initially to go, well, that's not going to happen. 1058 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,680 You know, when he first mentioned Greenland, everyone 1059 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,360 says, well, that's, you know, there's nothing. 1060 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,480 He's forget Greenland and then suddenly it's back and and you 1061 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,400 kind of think, well, they look like they actually want to build 1062 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,160 this. No, I take him seriously on the 1063 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:45,200 things he's obsessed with for sure. 1064 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,840 Like I said, I take him seriously when he says maybe we 1065 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,080 maybe we should cancel elections. 1066 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,720 I take that seriously. I don't think that's a joke. 1067 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,800 Yes, of course it could happen. I, I, you know, I'm not going to 1068 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,400 get into the predictions business, but it will come at 1069 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:56,640 great cost. I mean, the Palestinian people 1070 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,600 are not just going to roll over. I think one thing we've learned 1071 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,520 over the last 70 years and certainly over the last two 1072 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,640 years is that the Palestinian people are resilient people. 1073 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,080 They've gone through occupation, ethnic cleansing, dispossession, 1074 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,920 genocide now and they haven't given up. 1075 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,200 Why would they? There are people who deserve 1076 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,200 freedom and self determination like any other people in the 1077 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,840 world. And the idea that you're just 1078 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,480 going to empty out Gaza, I mean, they've made it unlivable. 1079 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,120 Trump himself said it's uninhabitable, which is one of 1080 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:20,760 the definitions of genocide, you could argue. 1081 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,200 And so yes, it will be very difficult. 1082 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,560 Will they try and get rid of everyone? 1083 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,000 I'm sure they will. Will they succeed? 1084 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,240 Let's see, I'm one of these people to go back to your 1085 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:29,840 question about journalism and activism. 1086 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,880 I'm one of those people who's going to try and persuade people 1087 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,240 to see what's happening, try and keep Gaza on the news agenda and 1088 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,280 make sure people know the injustice is happening there and 1089 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,400 the corruption that's happening there. 1090 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,240 What the hell is Tony Blair doing there, Krishnan? 1091 00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:43,640 What the hell is Tony Blair doing in on a Palestine board of 1092 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:44,600 peace? Tony Blair should be at The 1093 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:45,880 Hague. He was a failed Middle East 1094 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,960 envoy. He caused more bloodshed in in 1095 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,120 the Middle East than most politicians of our lifetime. 1096 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,560 And the idea that he he's involved in this just tells you 1097 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,360 everything you need to know. Tony Blair and Jared Kushner are 1098 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,120 not going to bring peace to the Middle East. 1099 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,080 Well, on that note, Mehdi Hassan, we must leave it there. 1100 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,760 Thank you very much indeed for joining us to share your ways to 1101 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,360 change the world. You can watch all of these 1102 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,160 interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. 1103 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,840 Until next time, bye bye.