1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 It's been really, really hard to find any degree of light when 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,320 you are reporting on this and you're seeing the images that 3 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:06,240 I'm seeing every single day. Obviously, it like, takes a 4 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:07,440 massive toll on your mental health. 5 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,760 Journalists are very often afraid of talking about that 6 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,880 because, again, it implies you're biased. 7 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,400 You're not neutral. But also, like, if I was to say 8 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,600 to you, do you find it disturbing the images that you 9 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,080 are seeing of Palestinian children in Gaza, Of course 10 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,480 you're going to say yes. Like, how can you not say yes? 11 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,800 It is just affecting. There's a light heartedness. 12 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,400 Yeah. Illustration and to your 13 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,600 illustration and A and A and a wit which I'm not getting from 14 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,160 this conversation I mean, if something happened to you, I 15 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:36,000 mean like you're. A miserable Krishnan. 16 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:39,280 Well, to be honest, you, you know, you're coming over as that 17 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,600 and I'm wondering, were you a light hearted, witty person who 18 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,320 was trying to get spread messages in a clever way, who 19 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,760 has been beaten down by the realities of what's going on in 20 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,360 Gaza or you're always like this just making witty content? 21 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,600 I don't know, I I, I'm quite lost to be honest. 22 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,360 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 23 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,160 I'm Christian Girimurthy, and this is the podcast in which we 24 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,200 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas and their 25 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,120 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 26 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,440 My guest today is Mona Chalabi, A Pulitzer Prize winning data 27 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,160 journalist, illustrator and writer. 28 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,840 She's gained international recognition for her distinctive 29 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,240 illustrations, which distill complex issues like wealth 30 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:28,120 disparity and racial injustice into art that's very relatable 31 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,160 and easily understood. Welcome to the podcast. 32 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:32,880 Hi, Krishnan. How do you want to change the 33 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,080 world? I'm going to start with a very, 34 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,200 very humble beginning. Maybe just have journalists 35 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,640 describe what's happening in Gaza as a genocide. 36 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,000 So accuracy and truth is what you want. 37 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,320 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would say that the word 38 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:51,040 genocide is a far more accurate word for a journalist to be 39 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,240 using than war. I think some of my work is about 40 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,320 trying to present the evidence for why that language makes 41 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,280 sense, right? So I'm trying to use data 42 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,560 journalism to show what is the most accurate language we can be 43 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,600 using to capture reality. OK, so lay out for me why 44 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,600 genocide is the accurate way to describe it. 45 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,880 It's funny, I think part of the reason is because because I take 46 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,720 a longer view of things. So I think that for those of us 47 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,880 who had been watching what had been happening in Palestine, it 48 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,200 was very, very clear from October, from November 2023 that 49 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,520 this would be a genocide. Because we've seen genocide or 50 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,520 behaviour from the Israeli state towards Palestinians long before 51 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,440 2023. So this felt like it was a 52 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,200 logical extension of that. And when I talk about genocidal 53 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:46,200 behaviour, I'm talking about state policies that don't allow 54 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:52,080 for for conditions of life to be bearable, to be healthy. 55 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:57,360 The Israeli state is clearly upholding those conditions for 56 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,560 Palestinian people and has been for a very long time. 57 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,520 So why? I mean, given you is the first 58 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,560 thing you've said. It's clearly important. 59 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,560 So why do you think it is so important to have that word 60 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,000 used, given how contested it is and given how easy it is to end 61 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,800 up down rabbit Warrens that are irrelevant to what's actually 62 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,760 happening, which is the mass killing and starvation people in 63 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,520 Gaza? But why? 64 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,160 I'm curious, why do they feel like they're rabbit Warrens? 65 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,120 Like it's just to say that mass those. 66 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,680 Those arguments, what I mean is like, it's very easy to end up 67 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,880 arguing with somebody about whether what's going on in Gaza 68 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,760 is a genocide or not and whether the intent is there or not. 69 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,000 You know, given the facts on the ground and what they could do 70 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,160 and how many people they could kill if they were trying to 71 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,000 exterminate the population rather than actually 72 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,440 concentrating on what's happening, which is 50 to 60,000 73 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,240 people dead, people starving, that that's the key. 74 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,360 So I mean that that's why I'm saying to you sort of why, why 75 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,280 is it? Why is genocide as a word, as a 76 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,760 definition, as a label for what's happening, vital to you? 77 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,120 Because the language of war implies 2 sidedness, it implies 78 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,680 some degree of kind of the equality between these two 79 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,320 powers that are going after one another. 80 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,440 And it doesn't capture this idea of oppressor and oppressed. 81 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,600 It doesn't capture the idea of an apartheid state. 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,320 I mean, even even those statistics that you cite, part 83 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,560 of the reason why they're flawed is because because it is a 84 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,720 genocide, you cannot accurately count the dead during a 85 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,280 genocide, which is why 50,000 to 60,000 simply isn't correct. 86 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:37,000 I'm not able to give you a perfect death toll to contradict 87 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,040 that, but what I can say that's. The number that the Health 88 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,160 Ministry put out and there's no way of obviously corroborating. 89 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,920 On top of that, there will obviously be deaths that are 90 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,800 excess deaths as a result of what's been going on since 91 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,800 October the 7th to, to what would have happened otherwise. 92 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,440 But that that I suppose leads us to what you do, which is, which 93 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,200 is data. And obviously a data journalist 94 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,240 is only as good as their data. So, so how? 95 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:09,160 How would you, how would you describe the job of a data 96 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,040 journalist? Is to convey information as 97 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,520 accurately as possible and in conveying accurately, you're 98 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,080 also letting audiences know the limitations of that data, right. 99 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,280 So let's go back to death tolls. I'm not saying to people who are 100 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,000 viewing my work or reading my work, this is exactly what the 101 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,720 death toll is. I'm saying it's somewhere 102 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,080 between X&Y and here's the information that we know to give 103 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,520 us a sense of why it is between those two bounds. 104 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,640 And the things like exactly as you were saying, like it's 105 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,560 things like the spread of disease, it's do we know how 106 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,160 many morgues are still operating? 107 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Do we know how many hospitals are just building mass graves 108 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,920 outside to put people inside? So you're taking all of the 109 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,280 information that you have available and communicating as 110 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:51,320 accurately as possible as you can to audiences. 111 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,320 How did you hit on your style? Yeah, which is about 112 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,440 illustration. Yeah, honestly it was 113 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,920 frustration mostly. I was looking at a lot of these 114 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,680 computer generated graphics that I feel like actually overstate 115 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,640 certainty. I think for example, a lot of 116 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,720 journalists are putting decimal places in places where they 117 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:12,960 don't belong. I was really, really 118 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,160 disillusioned actually by watching the way that data 119 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,720 journalism was being used to predict US election outcomes. 120 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,920 So I initially moved to the US to to be in the US to do 121 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,880 practice data journalism in the USI moved in 2013. 122 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,920 So I watched the midterms in 2014 and then the presidential 123 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,200 election in 2016 and became really, really frightened 124 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,240 actually by the way that data journalism was being used. 125 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,960 So I started to kind of draw to have this much more like kind of 126 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,640 humble approach about what it is that the data can tell you and 127 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,360 and the drawings also imply like a person, me who has my own 128 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,760 opinions was responsible for drawing these illustrations and 129 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,920 people sometimes lose sight of that by the time that it's kind 130 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,360 of embedded in a computer generated graphic. 131 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,240 So what? What was it that was distressing 132 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,920 you about the supposed accuracy of data journalism and the 133 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,720 decimal points? I think there's two things. 134 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,040 One is that it's dishonest, right? 135 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,560 So if you say Hillary Clinton has a 32.4% chance of winning, 136 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:10,880 that's we don't know it to a decimal place. 137 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,280 We don't know whether or not it's going to rain this 138 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,840 afternoon to a decimal place. How could you possibly predict 139 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,080 the behaviour of millions of voters to a decimal place? 140 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,480 So that's dishonest. Like we have a responsibility to 141 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,200 not only say the facts, but to communicate the degree to which 142 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,240 we're certain about those facts. And the other thing is like, I 143 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:26,560 just think it's bad for democracy. 144 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,400 I don't think it's good to say to a nation of people, this is 145 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,040 who's going to win before people have actually gone to the polls. 146 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:33,920 And I think that we as journalists, I'm sure you do 147 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,640 this all the time, Christian, and you don't just think about 148 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,880 like, what is the information to communicate? 149 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,040 You're thinking about what are the consequences of the ways in 150 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,000 which I'm communicating it? What are the ways in which this 151 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,320 this information that I'm sharing might affect people's 152 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,200 behaviour in ways positive and negative. 153 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,960 And you have a responsibility to think beyond just like, what's 154 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,360 the report? You have to think about how that 155 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,440 report is going to live in the world after you've said it. 156 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,720 And so, so is that how you've approached all your stories as 157 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,560 well, so that your, you know, your way of changing the world 158 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,600 is your journalism? Yeah, definitely. 159 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,960 And I think, I think in a way though it is still a little bit 160 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,440 more humble than that, I would hope, which is not that I'm 161 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,600 necessarily trying to like make these enormous changes. 162 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,000 I actually think very often I'm just trying to limit harm. 163 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,040 Like I think that even this example I was giving about the 164 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,840 language of genocide, I think that the language of war is 165 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,400 harmful in understanding what's happening in Palestine right 166 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,720 now. And I think the word genocide 167 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,920 limits that harm that is being done in terms of misinformation, 168 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,200 I mean. I mean, I supposed to come back 169 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,679 to that example, yeah. It's not entirely accurate 170 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,520 either though, is it? Because genocide suggests an 171 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:48,320 entirely 1 sided conflict, which Gaza isn't. 172 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:51,960 You know it. It may not be an A war, you know 173 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,080 a war between two armies. It may not be anything like an 174 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,080 equal battle, but there are two sides trying to fight each 175 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,080 other. Can you give me an example of a 176 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,680 genocide that you that you think does meet that definition of 177 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:08,840 genocide where there was? I I mean genocide is not 178 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,720 something I ever define. I I will report when the 179 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,240 genocide is found, and so that might be Cambodia or Rwanda or 180 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,800 in Bosnia Herzegovina or in the Second World War. 181 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,960 In all of those examples though, were there not instances where 182 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,360 where they were? They were. 183 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,400 They were a fight. Yeah, there was a fight. 184 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,560 And, and I think it is really interesting when we're saying, 185 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,600 when do we as journalists just say this is a genocide, right? 186 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:37,080 There are so many, there are so many human rights organisations, 187 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,640 Amnesty International, you know, all of them already, Krishnan, 188 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,080 you know, the states that have also come up and said this is a 189 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,520 genocide. Like, is it that we're waiting 190 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,600 for the British government to say that it's a genocide before 191 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,840 we then feel comfortable? No, no. 192 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,480 I think we, I think this is, you know, we've got ourselves into a 193 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,760 real mess over calling what's going on in Gaza A genocide or 194 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,000 not, because we we are all waiting for a course of law 195 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,640 which is never going to happen. And so we've, you know, we've 196 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,920 ended up in this situation where, you know, mainstream 197 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,720 media, if you like, feels unable to use the word in its normal 198 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,160 reportage because it doesn't know sort of what's its source. 199 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,840 You know, if it's contested, you know, why do you say yes? 200 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,560 But it's been ruled as a genocide. 201 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,440 That's the problem. I I hear you. 202 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,160 It is contested. And you know, it's part of the 203 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,520 reason actually why so much of my work is focused on Palestine. 204 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,080 Is this contestation right? Like what is happening in Sudan 205 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,480 right now is absolutely horrific and it's not getting the 206 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,680 attention that it deserves. And yet I'm so much of my 207 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:41,640 attention is still focused on Palestine because there is a 208 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,600 broad, there is a broad consensus that what's happening. 209 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,360 And there is definitely genocidal intent in Sudan. 210 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,920 And there is definitely genocidal intent in Palestine 211 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,800 when this number of Israeli high-ranking politicians have 212 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,640 said we want to exterminate the Palestinian people, they have 213 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:57,920 expressed. Genocidal intent. 214 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,960 There are people with genocidal intent. 215 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,160 Yeah. But then even in the case of 216 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,760 Sudan, how many politicians does it take to express genocidal 217 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,200 intent for us to say it's a genocide? 218 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,520 Like, there's two totally different standards that are 219 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,600 being applied. And I hear you that it's like, 220 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,320 you know, let's just get on with telling the facts. 221 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,960 But to me, let's just get on with telling the facts is to use 222 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,680 the word genocide, you know? Yeah. 223 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,640 But but why are you? Why are you more distressed? 224 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:30,040 You clearly are distressed by it by by this mass killing than you 225 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,840 are about the one that's also going on right now. 226 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,440 In Sudan, it's not that I'm more distressed, it's that this one 227 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,920 is is contested in a different kind of way. 228 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,880 I watch my colleagues readily using the language of genocide 229 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,160 in Sudan, rightly so, to describe that scale of suffering 230 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:46,880 and to describe again, it's about intent. 231 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,240 It's not just about the scale of the suffering. 232 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,760 Well, America said it was. Genocide Exactly, exactly 233 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,840 America's come forward and said it and yet the the British and 234 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,240 the American governments are not saying that this is a genocide. 235 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,360 And therefore, that's where, because it's contested, that's 236 00:11:58,360 --> 00:11:59,880 where I'm focusing all of my energy. 237 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:04,160 And yet I think I am distressed because I feel like these are my 238 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,720 colleagues that I'm witnessing using language that I don't 239 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,760 think is accurate. And I'm disappointed and 240 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,680 frustrated with that. And also because I'm 241 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,280 disappointed and frustrated in the ways that Palestinian 242 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,400 journalists are not being heard and listened to. 243 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,200 Palestinian journalists are saying this is a genocide. 244 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,640 They are there. They are living it day after 245 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,000 day. They are literally going without 246 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,320 food as they're trying to report. 247 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,760 They're coming on screen and saying that their family members 248 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,920 have been killed and they're describing it as a genocide, and 249 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,400 I see no reason to not believe what they're saying. 250 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,080 Then I suppose we have to get to sort of what lies underneath it, 251 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,280 which I guess is racism. Yes, yeah. 252 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,000 I mean, there's plenty of racism as well against Sudan. 253 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,240 I want to make that absolutely clear. 254 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,200 Part of the reason why the world hasn't paid sufficient attention 255 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,040 to the genocide there is because of the way that black bodies 256 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520 aren't respected or valued in the same way that let's say 257 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,800 bodies, white bodies elsewhere might be. 258 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,480 And I would say that the case of Palestine, part of the reason 259 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,440 why it also takes up so much of my attention is because it is 260 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,200 this confluence of so many things. 261 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,240 Here is colonialism taking place before our very eyes. 262 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,880 Here is Islamophobia. Here is anti Arab hatred. 263 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,160 It's everything. How have you seen that in the 264 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,720 course of your work? You see it in the reporting 265 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,400 itself. One of the very earliest pieces 266 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,080 that I did in October, actually I believe I published it like 267 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,200 October 18th, was an analysis of pieces that were published in 268 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,600 the New York Times. I worked with a researcher 269 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:39,200 called Holly Jackson's Do This. She had already looked at bias, 270 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,800 biases in New York Times reporting when it came to it as 271 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,680 well, Palestine. So I reached back out to her and 272 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:47,240 she scraped all of these New York Times articles and looked 273 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,440 at, and this is, again, just in the first few weeks, looked at 274 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,480 the number of mentions of Israeli deaths versus 275 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,360 Palestinian deaths, was able to show a wildly disproportionate 276 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,080 coverage of Israeli deaths and was also able to show the way 277 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,360 that the language, again, language really, really matters, 278 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,360 right? Israelis were described as being 279 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,080 massacred, slain, murdered, and Palestinians were simply, and 280 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:10,160 they weren't even killed, actually, more often it was 281 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,400 Palestinians dead, Palestinians who have died. 282 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,480 And we see this over and over again, this use of this passive 283 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,040 language in headlines and in articles that again implies that 284 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,560 there's something almost natural about the way that Arabs die 285 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:24,120 and. What? 286 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,200 What was the response in the New York Times to your observations? 287 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:30,680 Well, I actually pitched the data to the New York Times 288 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,360 initially before I published it myself, and they said no, thank 289 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:40,680 you. And yeah, I wouldn't say they 290 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,600 were particularly interested in the same types of articles that 291 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,800 I was interested in at the time. I'd pitched them this piece 292 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,600 about, again, the disproportionate coverage that 293 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:50,880 the New York Times has been doing. 294 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,680 I'd also pitched them a piece about how birthright trips might 295 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,000 change in the future. Not particularly interested in 296 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,960 that. Yeah. 297 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,160 I. Just explained Birthright trips. 298 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,720 So Birthright trips are, they are. 299 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,600 I mean, it's something that I saw even in my secondary school, 300 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,200 I saw people that were in my secondary school go off and do 301 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,360 birthright, which is a funded trip to Israel with the stated 302 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,000 purpose of improving relations with the States only for Jewish 303 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,000 people. And as the language implies, it 304 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,600 is reinforcing this idea that when you go to Israel, this is 305 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,720 your birthright. This land belongs to you. 306 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,840 Regardless of where you were born, regardless of where your 307 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,720 parents, your grandparents were born, this is yours. 308 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,200 It was fascinating, actually. The people that went and did 309 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,760 Birthright had a very different reaction to me. 310 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,080 When they came back. I felt like our relationships 311 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,360 changed. I was the only Arab person in my 312 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,600 school, and yeah, suddenly we weren't friends anymore. 313 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,600 And I find it very, very troubling that there are many, 314 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,760 many journalists who have done Birthright trips who don't need 315 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,800 to disclose that as a potential source of bias in their 316 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,960 reporting. There are journalists in very, 317 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,640 very senior positions who have family members that are 318 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,160 currently serving in the IDF as well as having done birthright 319 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,040 themselves. And that doesn't compromise 320 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,960 their objectivity. Whereas for me, the mere fact of 321 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,880 being an Arab means that my opinion on Palestinian Israel is 322 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:09,400 inherently tainted. Of course I'm biased. 323 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:10,880 Of course I'm siding with the Palestinians. 324 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,080 And. And did you, did you just feel 325 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,480 that from the way people spoke to you or were you confronted 326 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:16,960 with it? You know, were you accused of 327 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,960 bias? Accused of being pro Palestinian 328 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:30,080 because of my you, I it wasn't stated as an as a, as a well, it 329 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,520 wasn't even it wasn't an accusation. 330 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,960 It was what happened was I used to work for these places who 331 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,200 would hire me to do journalism, right, to do my job, which is to 332 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,320 gather research, to gather the facts, to scrutinize the facts, 333 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,320 to question the facts, and then to report them as accurately as 334 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,880 possible. And all of a sudden, after 335 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,280 October, as I said, they said no to all of my pictures that were 336 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,520 based on journalism. And instead, I had one approach 337 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,760 from an opinion desk at The New York Times saying, can you write 338 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,280 about what it feels like to be an Arab Muslim woman watching 339 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,360 what's happening in Palestine? And I found that very, very 340 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:03,320 upsetting. And you're seeing this, by the 341 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,800 way, across the board, right? Arab journalists are not really 342 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,040 being trusted. I mean, it's shifted a little 343 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,520 bit actually, as the genocide has gone on. 344 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,720 But especially, especially early on, we weren't trusted to report 345 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,359 and what was happening, we were being asked to write opinion 346 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:17,920 pieces. And it's a way of reinforcing 347 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,839 this idea of like, it's all very complicated. 348 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:24,000 It's about identity politics. It's Muslims versus Jews, which 349 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,800 is also absolute crap. There are still, there aren't 350 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,840 many left, but there are still Palestinian Christians living in 351 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,000 Gaza today. Yeah. 352 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,680 And the way that the Israeli apartheid state operates is not 353 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,840 based on whether you are Muslim or Jewish. 354 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,880 It it operates based on whether you are Jewish or anything else. 355 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,360 So so. As soon as you started wanting 356 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:53,680 to apply your journalism to this conflict, and that was when they 357 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,720 weren't interested. Yes, absolutely. 358 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,480 And do you? Feel that your career as a 359 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,160 result. I mean is is being cancelled or? 360 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,240 No, I wouldn't go that far. I think it's I think it's 361 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,800 complicated. And also, again, I think about 362 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,960 the ways that I talk about this stuff and the impact that it has 363 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,800 on people who are watching and listening. 364 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,040 I don't want to imply that if you speak up about what the 365 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,040 truth is, and that's literally all that I feel that I have 366 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:19,440 done. By the way, when I spoke to New 367 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,000 York Times, I said, are you able to point to any of my work that 368 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,120 I have done since October that has had any factual errors or 369 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:26,640 inaccuracies? And the answer was no. 370 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,160 So I stand by absolutely everything that I've done, and I 371 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,400 don't want to send a message that if you tell the truth, you 372 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,800 will be punished. I think that's really, really 373 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,160 harmful when it has such a chilling affair. 374 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,760 I would also say, by the way, yes, I pitched it to The New 375 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,280 York Times first before I published it. 376 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,000 But as journalists, don't we always speak publicly in order 377 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,480 to hold people to account? Like, it's such a journalistic 378 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,000 thing to do, to say this is where things are going wrong. 379 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,840 And I made it very, very clear that I I actually think on many 380 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,720 other subjects, The New York Times does phenomenal 381 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,640 journalism. Yeah. 382 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,400 But anyway, I just want to quickly say that I did write to 383 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,040 them afterwards and said, I really, really hope you 384 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,880 reconsider and we can work together again. 385 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,360 Again, this is very, very early on in October. 386 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:07,480 Things feel very, very different now. 387 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,600 It might have actually been early November. 388 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,280 And they wrote back and I said unless you were able to point to 389 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,920 a single factual error, this feels punitive. 390 00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,680 And they said, unfortunately, that is our position currently. 391 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:19,880 Right. So you. 392 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,520 You. Are still the data editor of the 393 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:22,760 Guardian US? Yeah. 394 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,200 Do they publish whatever you want? 395 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,520 No, no one gets published with whatever you want. 396 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,320 Of course you still have editors and of course there's still 397 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,200 negotiation, but I feel that my job there, I'm able to report 398 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,240 the truth more effectively, more efficiently. 399 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,080 Yeah, yeah. That's why I'm now. 400 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,960 More, more, more truthfully. And more truthfully, yeah, I, I, 401 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,400 you know, for example, I pitched an article about Israeli 402 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,560 settlements. It's just using UN data about 403 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,600 Israeli settler attacks, how many are taking place per year, 404 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,120 what the nature of those attacks are. 405 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,800 And So what what has been your response, having sort of lost 406 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,560 one of your big outlets and the place where you won the Pulitzer 407 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,560 Prize in The New York Times to sort of tell your story? 408 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,480 Is it on your own platform? Is that the answer? 409 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,520 Because in a way, this is quite a depressing story, because this 410 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,160 is sort of. This is somebody who wants to, 411 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,400 you know, get truths out there using the skills that you've 412 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,640 developed. And you're saying you've hit 413 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,200 some brick walls, some pretty depressing brick walls. 414 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,680 Which I think everyone can relate to, and so every 415 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,840 journalist can relate to in one way or another. 416 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,960 I have been using social media, which I think is also fraught 417 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,160 and flawed in all kinds of ways. I'm at the mercy of the 418 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,960 algorithms of these tech companies. 419 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:46,080 And these tech companies are not particularly wild about the 420 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,320 kinds of messages you're putting out, either. 421 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:54,720 No, no. So it's imperfect and I don't 422 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:55,880 know. We just keep on trying. 423 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,880 Like I was like, I'll say yes to doing a podcast like this in the 424 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,720 hopes that that language about genocide, someone hears it and 425 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,200 it shifts someone's thinking. I don't know. 426 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,560 I don't know. So do you, do you have a sense 427 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,320 of of how you should get the truth out? 428 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,600 No, I think I'm in a world of tech Bros and populist 429 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,880 government. I think we have to just 430 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:24,640 constantly be really, really creative and keep on thinking, 431 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,520 not get kind of stuck in our ways. 432 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,480 I think a lot. Again, I know I keep on coming 433 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,800 back to it, but I think a lot about language. 434 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,640 Like I was raised by two parents who spoke English as a second 435 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,440 language and that informs my journalism because it informs 436 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,280 the the words that I use for stuff. 437 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,960 If there is a simpler word, I'm not going to use the more 438 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,400 complicated word if it captures the truth just as accurately. 439 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,040 Like I'm constantly trying to think about accessibility for 440 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,760 different audiences. You know, I think about one of 441 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,520 the things that I think is sometimes effective about these 442 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,640 charts that I make is that you can share them on WhatsApp with 443 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,040 your auntie. You know, they can be shared in 444 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,120 across different platforms. I try to do like these small 445 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,680 little things where like I'll post it in one colour palette on 446 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,160 Instagram and one colour palette on like Twitter or on other 447 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,560 platforms to see if it comes up against in another context, I'll 448 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,080 be able to see, oh, where did someone like where you know, 449 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,720 where exactly did they find this potentially? 450 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,360 I mean, there's a light heartedness. 451 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,640 To. Illustration and to your 452 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:26,320 illustration and A and a wit to it, which I'm not getting from 453 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,640 this conversation. I mean, if something happened to 454 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,840 you, I mean like you're. A miserable Krishnan. 455 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,080 Well, to be honest, you, you know, you're coming over as that 456 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,480 and I'm wondering, have you been made miserable? 457 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,120 You know, were you, were you a light hearted, witty person who 458 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,840 was trying to get spread messages in a clever way, who 459 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,320 has been beaten down by the realities of what's going on in 460 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,640 Gaza Or you're always like this, just making witty content? 461 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,320 You know, this playfulness that I do sometimes use in my 462 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,280 illustrations it, you know, there's often like a time and a 463 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,120 place where it doesn't apply to all subjects. 464 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,960 And I think, yeah, it's been really, really hard to find any 465 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,640 degree of light when, when you are reporting on this and you're 466 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,360 seeing the images that I'm seeing every single day. 467 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,200 Obviously it like takes a massive toll on your mental 468 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,360 health. Yeah, I'm just a person. 469 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,080 It's not even about like the employment opportunities. 470 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,240 I mean, it's just how it's personally affecting to be doing 471 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,200 some of this work. And I think that journalists are 472 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,200 very often afraid of talking about that because again, it 473 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,760 implies you're you're biased, you're not neutral. 474 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,760 But also like if I was to say to you, do you find it disturbing 475 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,800 the images that you are seeing of Palestinian children in Gaza? 476 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,800 Of course you're going to say yes. 477 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,320 Like, how can you not say yes? It is just affecting. 478 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,080 So yeah, I'm really, really miserable. 479 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,160 It's a shame because I used to be able to like, you know, have 480 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,760 some fun on a conversation like this. 481 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,720 And I, I'm not really feeling that right now. 482 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,840 Yeah. So is what you're trying to 483 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,680 communicate changing then the topics you're you're you're 484 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,120 covering? I don't know, I, I, I'm quite 485 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,840 lost to be honest. It's like, and I feel it's the 486 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,080 case of so many of us. We're just like, what is it that 487 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,680 I'm doing right now? You know, like what, how, what 488 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,240 impact is this having? Why am I doing it? 489 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,720 And yet the idea of not doing what I'm doing is unthinkable 490 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,640 because I I simply can't do nothing. 491 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,760 So I just carry on. And it feels, yeah, it's really 492 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,280 difficult. It's quite crazy making I. 493 00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:22,400 Mean one of the really interesting things you're doing 494 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,240 is, is a cartoon, yeah. Let's change the dynamics. 495 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,080 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, no, no, no. 496 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,120 It's changing the subject, but it's also not, you know, that 497 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,600 you're, you're, you're doing something that's looking at 498 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,200 Muslims in America and, and all the sort of the, I mean, 499 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,040 politics with a small P around that, how women wear a hijab, 500 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,360 how families try and blend in. I mean, how, how did that come 501 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:51,280 about? How easy was it to get 502 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,000 commissioned? Yeah, so Rami Youssef, who had 503 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,880 Co created the show with Pam Brady, got in touch with me in I 504 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,680 the the early summer of 2020. So the pandemic had just 505 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,920 started. He and Pam had had this idea to 506 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,760 create this animated show that was set in 2001. 507 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,520 He got in touch with me to see if I could like pitch on like 508 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,400 visual ideas for the, for the language of the show. 509 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,400 So #1 Happy Family USA is a animated show about an Arab 510 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,160 Muslim family and it starts on September 10th, 2001. 511 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,920 They're living in New Jersey, and it shows how their lives are 512 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,760 kind of turned upside down that by the political forces around 513 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,160 them. And it was really interesting to 514 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,080 me, again, as a journalist, Like, obviously it was a very 515 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,600 creative endeavour. And it's funny. 516 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,480 Yeah, it's, it's very, very funny. 517 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,720 Obviously it was a creative endeavour. 518 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,640 But, you know, that period also really, really informed my 519 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:41,720 journalism. I'm sure it really, really 520 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,320 informed your journalism too, right. 521 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,760 Like this was going back to the flaws of journalism and racism. 522 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,640 Like I watched the way that the lead up to the Iraq war was 523 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,120 reported on. I'm Iraqi. 524 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:57,760 I watched those headlines that were wrong, that were factually 525 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,640 misleading force. And, you know, so much of this 526 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,440 show is about that world and the way that, like, the way that one 527 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,520 particular community became really, really singled out 528 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:12,680 overnight. Yeah. 529 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,600 What is the atmosphere in American TV right now around 530 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,720 that kind of topic? Yeah, I don't know if the show 531 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,000 would get made today, to be totally honest. 532 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,760 I feel like there has been a kind of shift, I would say, in a 533 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,160 lot of media to be like, oh God, uh, we should probably be can 534 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,080 catering more to, uh, conservative audiences. 535 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,640 I mean, you have networks who are clearly afraid. 536 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Umm, and they're right to be 537 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:44,680 afraid. I mean, there have been 538 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,400 lawsuits, uh, National Public Radio has been defunded by this 539 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,640 presidency. People are losing money. 540 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,040 And umm, as, you know, like people might have this sense, 541 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,000 like, you know, we're sitting in a nice studio. 542 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,640 Umm, actually, journalism is really, really struggling 543 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,160 financially. And without state support, it's 544 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,480 very, very, very difficult to make good journalism. 545 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,200 Yeah. And for you as a, as a, as a 546 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,320 data journalist, where, where do you, I mean like where do you do 547 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,120 your journalism? Can you do your journalism at 548 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,200 home and do you yearn more to be on the ground? 549 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,960 Yeah, so funny when you say on the ground, I'm like again, 550 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,080 getting bogged down in language, but I feel like so much of 551 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,320 journalism actually uses the language of like warfare, like 552 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,640 out in the field on the ground, which I find quite. 553 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,000 These are journalistic cliches. I know they're cliches, but 554 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,960 they, they have meaning, right? Like, you know, it shapes the 555 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,840 way that we think about the work that we do. 556 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,960 I do spend a lot of the time at my desk, but I'm also always 557 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,000 picking up the phone. I feel like it's really, really 558 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,400 important to ask people who have got lived experience. 559 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,120 So whatever it is, let's say I'm reporting on, I'm doing some 560 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:58,280 kind of chart about, I don't know, widowers and like widowers 561 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,920 by age. I want to speak to somebody who 562 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,080 has had an experience of losing a spouse, partly to make sure 563 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,880 that the the work is tonally correct, that it feels like it's 564 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,880 considerate and respectful. I also want to speak to some 565 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,720 people about the why data is so often flawed, about telling you 566 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:14,920 the why. It will tell you how something 567 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,480 has changed, when it changed, where it changed, if it changed. 568 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,400 It's very, very bad at telling you why something has changed. 569 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,960 Yeah, No, I mean, I asked, you know, for me, for me as a 570 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,720 journalist, I spent obviously a huge amount of time in the 571 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:26,320 studio. Yeah. 572 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,440 But if I don't get out and go to the stories as well for a period 573 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,640 of time, I I go a bit crazy. Yeah. 574 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,240 Because I feel disconnected from what's definitely going on. 575 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,000 So it's very, very important for me to get out. 576 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,480 And I, you know, I just wonder whether you feel that more. 577 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,600 Now I do, yeah. And I thought it before. 578 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,640 I, you know, again, I have this really cynical take on data. 579 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,600 I don't believe that it's like this perfect, more accurate way 580 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,680 of, of understanding the world. I think very often it like 581 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,720 flattens out human experiences in ways that are quite damaging, 582 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:54,840 right? Like if you're constantly just 583 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,720 reporting on, for example, like, you know, the average 584 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,400 unemployment rate nationally, there are people who are going 585 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,440 to be in cities across this country who are going to be 586 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,440 like, wait a second, that doesn't represent our experience 587 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,200 whatsoever. There's going to be demographic 588 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,520 groups who are like, wait, that's not what things look like 589 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,080 for me. So yeah. 590 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,520 There was a sort of fetishisation of data, wasn't 591 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:14,560 there? Where, where, where people 592 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,960 thought, well, you can't argue with data, You can't argue with 593 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,200 numbers because they're facts. Yeah, actually you can't. 594 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,640 You can't. And even though I still think 595 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,280 we're part of that fetishisation, I think we're 596 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,080 still seeing it now. I mean, it's definitely the case 597 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,400 in tech, isn't it? That data is everything so. 598 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,680 What do you think people should understand about data and data 599 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,720 journalism? I think they should understand 600 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,720 that it is also flawed and that it's really, really important 601 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,080 that they look at what the sources of that information are 602 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,600 and that they then go and question the reliability of 603 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,040 those sources. So for example, even if it's 604 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,680 something as simple as like a poll, right? 605 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,520 So I'll give a, a poll that comes to mind. 606 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,640 Like there was a poll. Did you see these Haaretz polls 607 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,600 that were done quite recently about Israeli public opinion? 608 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,000 And what percentage of Israelis believed that like, you know, 609 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,840 all of Gaza should be flattened again with with a poll like 610 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,160 that? I want to understand how many 611 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,680 people were asked, was it all across the country? 612 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,280 Which age groups were asked? You know, generally anything 613 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,840 less than 1000 people really isn't considered particularly 614 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,160 reliable. What was their methodology? 615 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,080 And it's really hard, right? Because even as I'm saying these 616 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320 things, it's quite unreasonable actually, to expect every 617 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,720 reader, every viewer, to do that work every single time when 618 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,160 they're presented with information. 619 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,080 But I think if you can do it at least some of the time, you 620 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,440 start to better understand, OK, the distinctions, let's say, 621 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,520 between Channel 4 News and Fox News. 622 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,280 Because you'll quickly see the way that these two sources use 623 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,640 information is very, very different. 624 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,280 And, and do you think these are, I mean, it's like being able to 625 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:40,720 spot fake news as well, isn't it? 626 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,840 I mean, do you think these are skills that's we we will all 627 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,760 have to get pretty quickly if we want to discern the truth from 628 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,920 the lies? Yeah, I think what I worry is 629 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,680 happening is that a lot of people are just opting out. 630 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,080 Don't you think a lot of people are just like? 631 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,720 This is really confusing. So just avoid it. 632 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,000 Yeah. And people are questioning 633 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,400 whether or not it relates to their daily lives. 634 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,800 They're finding it distressing, like, oh, it's very, very 635 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,360 upsetting hearing what's happening in Palestine. 636 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,640 So they're just looking away. And that really worries me as 637 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:09,800 well. And that's again, part of the 638 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,640 reason why I use illustration like it is important to show 639 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,800 that there are Palestinian children who have literally been 640 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,520 beheaded. And at the same time, there is 641 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,080 there is a place for those photographs. 642 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,120 And it's not what I use in my work, partly because I know that 643 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,120 as soon as I publish that that photograph, there are so many 644 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,920 people who are either going to want to unfollow me, keep 645 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,120 scrolling because it's upsetting and and it should be upsetting. 646 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,520 But also there's, you know, we're all doing different roles 647 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,520 in terms of the visual information that we're sharing. 648 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,560 And. It's so rough. 649 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:42,960 I'm sorry. I know it is so miserable. 650 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,160 And like, I yeah, it's not fun. I'm trying to think of anything 651 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,840 that's like less miserable to talk about. 652 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,560 Krishnan. It's, well, it's, I mean, it's, 653 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,400 it's, it's striking, you know, how, how do you, do you feel 654 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,200 more affected by this than you did the Iraq war? 655 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,360 That's a really good question too. 656 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,040 It's it's so different in some ways. 657 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,080 In 2003, I was 15 years old. I don't even think I like, I 658 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,000 actually get very upset thinking about what my parents were 659 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,200 living through because I didn't grasp it at all at the time. 660 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:27,520 I think I'm more affected by this in some ways, again, 661 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,280 because I'm just at a very different place in my life, but 662 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:36,320 also because I I feel very, very afraid of complicity. 663 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,400 That's what I'm really talking about when I'm obsessing over 664 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,320 whether or not we use the language of genocide or war. 665 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,080 I actually think to use the language of war is to be 666 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,240 complicit in the language and the messaging that the Israeli 667 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,360 state wants journalists to be using. 668 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,600 And so that's why I'm so deeply troubled right now is like, in 669 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,440 which ways am I complicit? By the things that I'm buying, 670 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,920 by the things that I'm saying, by the the websites that I'm 671 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,960 reading. As an adult, you you are 672 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,160 burdened with that, with that guilt in a different kind of 673 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,600 way. Do you feel the need to start 674 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:08,520 living more, More literally, you know, not buying goods not just 675 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,440 from Israel but from America or wherever else I mean? 676 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,720 Yeah, I mean, I personally. You're living in America. 677 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,040 Yeah, I am. I am. 678 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,600 Which is which is complicated. I'm paying taxes in America. 679 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:21,760 I'm paying taxes in this country. 680 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,840 This is also a country which is materially supporting the 681 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,720 genocide. Yeah. 682 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,760 I I I'm again talking about how journalism could change, Right. 683 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:37,840 I don't see much news reporting about the efficacy of resistance 684 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,320 movements. That's not really part of our 685 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,280 vocabulary in journalism, right? Like, it feels surprising, I 686 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,880 guess, to imagine an evening broadcast that is talking about 687 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,040 whether or not BDS, for example, is working. 688 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,200 And I feel like actually, that is the kind of journalism that 689 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,600 could also help to change the world by letting people know 690 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,960 what works. And I do believe that BDS, it 691 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,200 might not be working as much as it should right now, as much as 692 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,880 it could if more people are involved. 693 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,520 Again, for me, my main priority is the knowledge that I'm not 694 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,720 being complicit rather than this idea that it's going to make the 695 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,600 genocide stop. But I also believe it can be 696 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,840 effective in in at least slowing down the rate of killing. 697 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:17,800 Well, no, no, we must leave it there. 698 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,800 Thank you so much for being so open about the the dilemmas and 699 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,600 the misery, I suppose around around confronting what you do. 700 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,600 I hope you enjoyed that. You can watch all of these 701 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,800 interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. 702 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,199 Until next time, bye bye.