1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 I'm aware that I might be a lot of people's only exposure to 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:04,880 somebody who's blind or disabled. 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,280 I might be the only blind person they see, and they might have 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,240 low expectations of somebody who's blind. 5 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,920 If I can surprise people and challenge people, then the next 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,360 time they encounter somebody that's blind, maybe they have 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:19,640 slightly higher expectations. Maybe they talk to them 8 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:21,640 differently. Maybe they talk to them and not 9 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,680 the person they're with. It's far healthier to make 10 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,120 people forget about the one thing that they think defines 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,640 you, them bash them over their heads with it all the time. 12 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,400 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 13 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,240 I'm Christian Gary Murphy, and this is the podcast in which we 14 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,800 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,120 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 16 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,640 My guest today is one of the country's most loved comedians, 17 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,160 Chris McCausland, who is now perhaps best known as the first 18 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:56,120 blind contestant on Strictly Come Dancing and the show's 2024 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,000 champion. His famous waltz with dancer 20 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,600 Diane Boswell even won a BAFTA as the most memorable movement 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,760 on TV now. Chris started losing sight as a 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,440 young boy due to a genetic condition and was fully blind by 23 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:13,440 his early 20s, but he has never let disability define him. 24 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,400 In his latest autobiography, Keep Laughing, he details his 25 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,240 journey as a boy from Liverpool who goes on to win the hearts of 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,440 the nation. Chris, welcome. 27 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:23,320 Thank you for joining us. Oh. 28 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,920 Nice one mate. We always want to start this 29 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,560 podcast by asking people, if you could wave a magic wand and 30 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,000 change the world, what would you do? 31 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,600 You know, a, a lot, a lot of the people that are trying to change 32 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,480 the world are trying to change the world in, in a way that's 33 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,280 not very healthy for, for, for most people. 34 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,800 So let's wave a wand. Let's sort their heads out. 35 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,360 Yeah. And hopefully the world will be 36 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,560 happier for everybody. I, I, I just, I just think we 37 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,800 need, we just need more tolerance, don't we really? 38 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,720 That's that's it. More tolerance for other people 39 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,360 that aren't like ourselves. More understanding, yeah, 40 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,040 you're, you're, I mean, when you talk about. 41 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,360 I am a comedian though, by the way. 42 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:59,640 It's quite a deep question for that. 43 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,480 I don't know if you know if you've booked here. 44 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,040 Well, The thing is about comedy on the TV now. 45 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,120 A lot of it is topical and political. 46 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,920 Yeah, and panel shows are all topical and political. 47 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:13,960 And you're not a political comedian. 48 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,760 No, no, no. But I do love doing. 49 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,640 If I got news for you, you know, So I love the challenge of it 50 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:21,960 and I love the fact that you start the week with nothing. 51 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,480 And, and I, I really put the work in, you know, I read, I 52 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,560 read the papers online and, and I, I, I come up with a, a list 53 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,720 of ideas and an awareness of what's going on and some jokes. 54 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,640 And I instantly forget 80% of it. 55 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:36,560 But I, but it makes me feel prepared. 56 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,560 And then, you know, doing things like have I got news for you? 57 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,440 A lot of the, the funny stuff happens in the room. 58 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,080 It just comes from having the conversations and, and, and, you 59 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,480 know, trying to make things silly. 60 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,440 And that's what I try and do on that really is, is try and make 61 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,080 things silly, try and bring a little bit of daftness into it 62 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,520 and and take the Mickey out of everybody rather than turning up 63 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,840 with agendas and opinions and trying to bash people over the 64 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,720 edge with them. But I I wonder whether you think 65 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,480 the industry forgets that that's actually what people like. 66 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:10,600 Because if you think about, you know, the Michael Mcintyre's of 67 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,560 this world, you know, wholesome comedians if you like family 68 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,200 comedians who often get the the Mickey taken out of them by 69 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,120 other people on the comedy circuit. 70 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,680 They're not being clever enough, they're not being original 71 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,680 enough, you know, and ultimately people want to laugh and they 72 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,320 want to. They want a holiday from what 73 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,640 you do, Christian. I want a holiday from what I do, 74 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,000 yeah. But you know, it's, it's, it's, 75 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,360 there's, there's, there's so much happening in the world that 76 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,920 people don't want to be reminded about when they go out to have a 77 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,480 laugh. And Michael does that very well. 78 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,480 You, you, you talk about him actually in the book as somebody 79 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,160 you really admire. Yeah, yeah. 80 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,160 I mean, so like I, you know, I, I grew up getting into comedy 81 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,640 throughout the 90s and throughout the 90s, you know, 82 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,480 all my favorite comedians were people like Jack Dee and Alan 83 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,320 Davis and, and Frank Skinner and then Eddie Izzard and people 84 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,880 like that. And these were comedians that, 85 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,200 that talked about anything and everything and there was no, 86 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,160 there was never a theme to a show. 87 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:20,680 They were never bashing you over their heads with opinions. 88 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,600 It was never topical. It was always just funny because 89 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,840 it was funny. It was like a smorgasbord of 90 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,480 ideas and comedy. And you know, I think what we 91 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,840 found in comedy, especially as the number of comedians has 92 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:36,560 increased on the circuit and Edinburgh's played a bigger part 93 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,840 in it. A lot of comedians start tours 94 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:40,720 off which shows that they've written for the Edinburgh 95 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,560 Fringe. Which the way you make yourself 96 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,240 stand out of the Edinburgh Fringe is you write something 97 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,160 with a theme, you write something with a point, you try 98 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,000 and make yourself different to what everybody else is doing. 99 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,920 And it it, it has its value in Edinburgh and it's proven to 100 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,360 have its value for a lot of comedians. 101 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,920 But ultimately, I think more often than not, it's not what 102 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:04,320 travels the best outside of that fringe environment. 103 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,440 What travels the best is that comedy that I grew up living in 104 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,240 the throughout the 90s, you know, which isn't really about 105 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,600 anything. And so that's, that's what I 106 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:14,600 love. That's what you know, that's 107 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,920 what Michael loves. Michael McIntyre, you know, and 108 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,360 doing the circuit. Michael's one of those comedians 109 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,160 that I did a lot of the clubs with before he went 110 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,680 stratospheric. And he was always the best, the 111 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,360 best comedian on the bill. He was always the comedian that 112 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:38,120 would get the best response. And he was always, I think he 113 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,520 would, he would always be different every set. 114 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,120 And I really admired that and I appreciated that. 115 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,080 And it was, again, the comedy that I grew up loving, you know? 116 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:53,520 I mean, did you ever think that doing Strictly would be 117 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,040 transformational for your comedy career? 118 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,760 I mean, it's been transformational for your life, 119 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,400 I suppose, in lots of different ways, and we can talk about 120 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,080 that. But when you decided to do it, 121 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:03,960 did you think this will be a good career move? 122 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,600 No, I thought it was going to be a disaster. 123 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,600 I thought it could be a disaster, and I thought the 124 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,160 chances of it being a disaster were far greater than the 125 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:18,800 chances of it being a success. And it was representations only 126 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,640 positive if it's good. You know, it's only, it's only 127 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,360 positive representation if it sends out a good message. 128 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,200 If I go on strictly and it's a disaster, it does nobody any 129 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,080 good. And I didn't know really what it 130 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,840 was I was being asked to do. I didn't understand what the 131 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,280 show was beyond the fact it's a dancing show. 132 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,720 It's it's hard to explain. Because you've never seen. 133 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,000 It, no, never seen it. So you don't know how technical 134 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,000 it is. You don't know how good it is, 135 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,400 how good the good people are, how bad the bad people are. 136 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,480 You don't know how fast they're moving on the floor, really what 137 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,720 the lifts are. You can't describe them in in 138 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,960 any way that compares to looking at a video. 139 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,080 And so I was asked a few times and I said no because there was 140 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,520 fear, There was the unknown. And there was the idea that I'd, 141 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,520 I'd just come off the back of a tour that ended at the 142 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,440 Shepherd's Bush Empire, which, you know, is it was a, it was a 143 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,880 decent tour. I was playing 1000 seats of 144 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,440 rooms, you know, And I, I'd built an audience up by being 145 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,360 funny, by being on shows that people liked, the comedy that I 146 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,400 did. And then I was presented with 147 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,920 this opportunity to jeopardize all of that, you know, by doing 148 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,080 something that could be a failure in a way that made 149 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:38,200 people feel sorry for me. Because if if I go on to that 150 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,920 list, I was on with Paul Merson. Paul Merson was brilliant to do 151 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,320 it with. Yeah, he was such a funny bloke. 152 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,880 And but he was always people, people would say about him 153 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,680 always dancing was a bit goofy, goofy dad dancing or whatever. 154 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:56,520 And people can go on strictly and, and can't not, not do as 155 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,880 well as other people and can kind of maybe be the, the of a 156 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,280 joke along the way. Anyone can, can be kind of 157 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,880 susceptible to that. But whereas if I went on it and 158 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,280 it didn't go well, it was more than that. 159 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,760 It was that it could have been a disaster. 160 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,920 We, we, how, how do I know if I can do it? 161 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,200 How do I know that Diane wouldn't have my, my dancer 162 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,360 wouldn't have clattered into me on the dance floor, that we 163 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,680 would have got the angles wrong and danced off the floor that we 164 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,480 would have kind of hit a camera. There's, there's so many things 165 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,840 that are beyond a bit of goofy dad dancing. 166 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,640 And if I went on that in front of 8 million people and it ended 167 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,600 up like that and people felt sorry for me, who wants to go 168 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,080 and see a comedian they feel sorry for? 169 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,039 You know, it, it's so it, it runs the risk of jeopardising, 170 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,360 yeah, jeopardising that audience. 171 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,720 And it's. Yeah, it was, it was a real leap 172 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,280 of faith to do it and to kind of go, OK, well, we're going to 173 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:56,480 gamble all of this on this opportunity to try and represent 174 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,200 positively. And it was. 175 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,120 It was a gamble. How quickly did you realise it 176 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,520 wasn't? Because I think we all, to some 177 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,480 degree or other, think doing strictly is a big gamble. 178 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,200 And you know, for someone like me who's fundamentally serious, 179 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,840 you know, I'd always been warned that it would be a gamble. 180 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,240 And that's partly why I hadn't done it in the past. 181 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,600 But almost as soon as I started doing it, after that first week, 182 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,720 I thought this is, this is going to be fine. 183 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,960 You know, if you're, if you're just honest and open about who 184 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,120 you are and what you're doing. And once you saw the competition 185 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,280 was like. Exactly. 186 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,840 It's going to be OK. And I remember I texted you I 187 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,840 think in your first week after your first week and said you're 188 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,160 going to win. And, and I kind of thought that 189 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,680 immediately after I saw you on that first dance. 190 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,040 So did you know very quickly this was going to be fine? 191 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:52,520 So I, I, first of all, I, I, I had no experience of the show. 192 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,520 So I didn't really understand how the show worked in terms of 193 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,400 what, what, what part the audience played in it to, to 194 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,440 what extent the viewers at home really decided who was going to 195 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,240 do well in that show. And that it wasn't necessarily 196 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,280 all about being the best dancer. You know, I, I didn't really 197 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:15,160 appreciate that until I was in it when we, we started. 198 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,040 So we, you know, as you know, you do this first opening 199 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,000 episode, which is where you all get paired off and you do a 200 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,920 group dance. I found out later after that, 201 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Diane told me when we me and Diane, we talk all the time. 202 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,720 We've come out of it so close. And she told me that after that 203 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:35,240 first group dance, she went up and she cried because she said 204 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,520 to me, she said, I just thought you would be better. 205 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,600 So, so there was this moment where we started and it, you 206 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,560 know, I was trying to find me feet and, and she, she didn't 207 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,880 realise how, what, what a challenge she had ahead of her. 208 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:55,080 And, and we, we, we, we started off in this first live episode, 209 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,800 the most terrifying thing I have ever done in my life, by the 210 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,440 way. And we started off and I said to 211 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,320 her, listen, I don't want this dumbing down because there's the 212 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,520 only reason I'm here is to, is to show people that this is 213 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,280 possible. The more is possible than they 214 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:11,480 would think. And ultimately, the more is 215 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,280 possible than I would think we need to be doing everything else 216 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:15,840 to everything that everybody else is doing. 217 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,760 And she said, I couldn't agree more. 218 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,680 So let's let's go out all guns blazing. 219 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:22,560 She goes, what? We're going to do this first 220 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,040 dance. I'm going to do a cartwheel. 221 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,560 You're going to catch me legging me there. 222 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:26,920 You're going to pull it. I said, hang on a minute. 223 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,680 But that's what we did. We we went out to to smash 224 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:35,000 people over the edge with it and go look at what is possible. 225 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,080 And that first dance that you're on the boat. 226 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,440 We did this Cha cha cha to twist and shout. 227 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,680 She did the cartwheel in, in training. 228 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,600 She kicked me in the head so hard, by the way, because we, 229 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,360 you know, that's how you practice a cartwheel, just by 230 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,240 doing the cartwheel. And I, you know, I did joke with 231 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,000 her that if she thought I was hiding any level of eyesight, I 232 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,760 stood. I took that foot in the face 233 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:57,960 without flinching. Right. 234 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,280 And but we, we, we did these things, these set pieces that if 235 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,880 they'd gone wrong on the telly, it was game over. 236 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,440 There's no way you can recover from. 237 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,440 Yeah, a cartwheel kick, flying kick in the head. 238 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,640 We, we, we did this move where I she fell backwards and I caught 239 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,520 her and I dragged her back into the middle of the dance floor 240 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,160 and swung her legs while stepping over her legs swinging 241 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,320 underneath me like a a helicopter. 242 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,400 And these were things that were hit and miss during training. 243 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,920 And we, but we trained in this empty room where I could hear 244 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,080 her breathing and talking and counting. 245 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,360 And then you're in this environment with a screaming 246 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,800 audience and a band and you go, how is this even possible in 247 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,080 that environment? And it was, and it couldn't have 248 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,440 gone better for what we needed out of it and for the impact 249 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,560 that it had and how it, you know, how it, the, the audience, 250 00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:49,320 how it connected with the audience at home. 251 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,360 You know, we got 23 out of 40 points. 252 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,160 It could have gone better in terms of points, but it couldn't 253 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,880 have gone better for what it was and what it represented. 254 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,520 And we came out of that and my, my first reaction was, oh God, I 255 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,760 got away with that, didn't I? How the hell do we do that 256 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,960 again? Because it felt like it was so 257 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,320 trying to keep hold of a runaway horse. 258 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,680 You know, it was, you're literally being bowled along by 259 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:17,040 this song and by the energy of it and the nerves and the fear. 260 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,600 And you come out of it and you don't come out of a feeling. 261 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,280 Oh, we, we, I, I controlled that and I nailed that. 262 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,440 Bring it on. You come out of it going, how do 263 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,360 I do that again? Again, how do we do that another 264 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,640 time? Starting from scratch was 265 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,840 something completely different. Yeah. 266 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,160 I mean, what do you see in your mind's eye when it comes to 267 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,000 dance? I mean, like, what? 268 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,720 What was your concept of dance having, you know, your, your. 269 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,160 I suppose your images of dance must have been pretty dim and 270 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,200 distant memories. And I'm guessing you probably 271 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,600 didn't watch Angela Rippon on Come Dancing as a little kid. 272 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,520 So did you even know? What a foxtrot. 273 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,840 Looks like, you know, I mean not, not at all, no. 274 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,360 And I knew what ballroom was in terms of the very primitive a 275 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,960 hold of it. You know, I remember watching, 276 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,440 you know, ironically, Al Pacino playing a blind man but doing 277 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,520 the tango. Was it on a set of a woman? 278 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,320 And, you know, there's a bit of dancing in Pulp Fiction, isn't 279 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:11,840 it? But, you know, and, you know, 280 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,600 there's a bit of what you'd probably call 1950's rock and 281 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,160 roll, possibly jive dancing going on the Back to the Future 282 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,040 when they do the Enchantment Under the Sea dance. 283 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,440 But they're just kind of vague, faded memories of people 284 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,280 dancing. I, I, I had no idea what a jive 285 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,920 was, what a, what a, what a samba was, what a salsa was, 286 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,160 what really what the difference between a foxtrot? 287 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,040 And I'd never even heard of American Smooth, you know, So 288 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,480 all of these things were so foreign to me. 289 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,120 Could you picture what you and Diane looked like? 290 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,520 A little bit, yeah. I mean, I, I mean, we've, we've, 291 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,960 we've said that, you know, if I ever, you know, if there's ever 292 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,000 anybody a clever guy in a white coat with a clipboard that 293 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,520 manages manages to cure my eyesight condition, me and me 294 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,120 and Diana are going to sit down and watch what we were able to 295 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,880 do. Because it's, it's, it's, it's 296 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,320 hard to picture in me head what it was that we did in some of 297 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,440 them, what it looked like and how magical they make it look 298 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,760 with the, the, the, the visual effects and the settings and the 299 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,480 costume and the makeup and the hair and all of these people. 300 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,640 They do such a phenomenal job on that show. 301 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,360 And but yet you're only my only experience of it really is, is 302 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,800 in my imagination and from the moves that we were doing, but 303 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,720 not really how the audience, you know, experienced it, which is 304 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,920 what it's all about, isn't it? Yes. 305 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,360 Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's not often 306 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,520 that I feel left out visually. I'm used to not being able to 307 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,440 see things. I love football. 308 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,640 I haven't been able to watch football in ages, but I don't 309 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,000 usually feel left out. I'm just used to listening to 310 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,080 it. But you know, going on and doing 311 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,800 that show, which is so visual and being part, I've never felt 312 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,040 part of something that was such a machine. 313 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,280 So many moving parts, working towards making this same great 314 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,440 show every Saturday. Part of a team like that, such a 315 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,360 big team, but also so left out of what the experience was 316 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,840 because everybody else can watch everybody else's dances, 317 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,240 Everybody else can go. Oh, well done. 318 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,000 That was great. You did really well. 319 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,040 I loved what you did. That lift was phenomenal. 320 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,200 I had no idea what anyone else was doing. 321 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,200 You know, we, you know, I'd joke with Diane and people that I'd 322 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,080 stand up at the top in Claudia's area. 323 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,160 And, you know, I remember Pete doing Pete Wicks doing whatever 324 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,560 dance he did to Breathe by the Prodigy. 325 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,000 And it finished and everybody applauded him. 326 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,360 And I said to die. God, the band's amazing, aren't 327 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,440 they? I said it just, it sounds just 328 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,240 like the Prodigy. How did they do that? 329 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,760 Because that's what I was listening to. 330 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:58,280 And we'd go through the show. And, you know, by the time you 331 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:03,960 get to week 34567, everybody else has got an idea of what the 332 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,280 dances are that they're doing because they've seen other 333 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:07,680 people doing them. You learn from them. 334 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:08,960 Yeah. You learn from what you're 335 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,400 watching. What makes a good Charleston 336 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,720 Watch? What makes a passable 337 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,560 Charleston. I had no idea every, every, 338 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,359 every Monday. And we'd start by having to 339 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,200 explain what the dance was from the very basic building blocks, 340 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,480 you know, And it took a a lot of time, a lot of trust, a lot of 341 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:26,440 effort. And it. 342 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,640 But it paid off, didn't it? I don't know how you did it in 343 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,440 the time because I used to struggle with the time that we 344 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:37,480 had enormously and the idea of actually not not having any 345 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,600 concept of, you know, not being able to just say just put your 346 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,400 put your foot there and put your foot there. 347 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,840 Well, you just, you just, you just put, I mean you have to put 348 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,240 the hours in. I cleared my diary from for much 349 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:53,240 of it, I I trusted implicitly that Diane was not going to make 350 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,440 me look stupid and she'd always be where she needed to be. 351 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,160 She trusted implicitly that I would always put 100% in because 352 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,720 you can't pull it off. If you put in 90% and you can't, 353 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,120 you know you need to be, you can't hold off in the momentum. 354 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,320 If you're going to do a lift, because I'm unsure that it's 355 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,240 going to work, I need to trust implicitly that this lift is 356 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:13,680 going to. Work. 357 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,200 And is that something? Is, is trust something that 358 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:22,280 comes easily, you know, for you? Because I I would imagine it's 359 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,680 quite hard to trust. Well, I, I always have to trust 360 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,000 I've all, you know, I always have to trust that, you know, 361 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,440 that the person that's guiding me is not going to walk me into 362 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,960 something. I always have to trust that 363 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:43,280 whatever clothes I buy kind of look OK, you know, does it look 364 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:44,800 all right? Does it, you know, does does 365 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,480 this match this? Is this a number of times? 366 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,600 I asked my daughter, you know, she's she's on her iPad and 367 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:51,920 she's playing Roblox or something. 368 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,040 And I'll, I'll say to her, is this jumper clean? 369 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,040 And she'll go, Yeah. And I can tell she hasn't moved 370 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,160 her head. I can. 371 00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:59,800 I can. I said she didn't even look at 372 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:00,840 me. She said I did look at you. 373 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,600 I said, I can hear that your voice has not changed from 374 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,760 looking at the screen, You know, so you, you, you always trusted 375 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,320 that people are, you know, giving you the right information 376 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,960 and, and on your side to some extent. 377 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,000 And, but this was a real leap because of the jeopardy in it. 378 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,040 And we trusted each other implicitly, you know. 379 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,480 How did you prepare yourself psychologically for losing your 380 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,440 sight? Because it happened over many 381 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,520 years. Over 25 years, I'd say yeah, 382 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,120 yeah, You, you can't. You just didn't. 383 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:35,880 You just didn't in it as it's happening. 384 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,080 I always think of it as like the frog in the water. 385 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,440 You know that you you don't notice the the temperature 386 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,000 changing for the frog and I, you don't notice the eyesight 387 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,160 deteriorating. You only notice that it used to 388 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,200 be better than it is now. And so there's never a moment of 389 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:55,880 reckoning. You know, there's there's, 390 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,760 there's, there's swings and roundabouts, pluses and 391 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,680 negatives to to everybody's experiences that, you know, that 392 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,440 you can be blind from birth. I'm glad I could see, but but 393 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,880 somebody blind now at my age will be a a completely different 394 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,360 animal to I am, you know, a different level of. 395 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,800 Independence and competence to what I've got out and about in 396 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,120 the world. But you know, I'm glad I used to 397 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,360 be able to see. It's a completely different 398 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:21,000 experience to somebody who loses their eyesight in an instant or 399 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,080 in a very, very quick period of time because they have this, you 400 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,480 know, for, for the, for simplicity, they have an 401 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,640 accident and lose their sight. They have a moment of reckoning 402 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,000 that they have to come to terms with. 403 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,600 And I can only imagine that the trauma there is immense is the, 404 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,640 the, the grief, the loss that they have to come to terms with 405 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,200 in a, in a, in a day, in a week is a lot. 406 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,160 But they have this moment where they go, well, I've got the pre, 407 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,640 the pre blindness like identity and now this new blind identity. 408 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,520 And I need to adjust to it. When you're losing your sight 409 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,480 really, really gradually, you never have never have that. 410 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,360 You're always kind of living in denial and you're always really 411 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,600 living in the belief that you can still see more than you can 412 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,200 because you're always psychologically playing catch up 413 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,520 to the to the reality, if that makes sense to you. 414 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,640 Yeah. So it's it, it leads to a lot of 415 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,520 denial, it leads to a lot of resistance to the I, the 416 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,760 identity of being blind. Resentment. 417 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,240 I'd say frustration, yeah, frustration. 418 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,800 I'd, I'd say I was never really angry and I was never really 419 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,240 resentful. But, but certainly you would 420 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,440 have periods of frustration, a lot of frustration along the way 421 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,760 when you realise that you can't do the things that you, you're 422 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,920 struggling now to do things that you used to be able to do. 423 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,400 And, and especially when you have to relinquish a lot of 424 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,720 aspects of yourself along the way. 425 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,000 You know, a lot of things that define your identity. 426 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,000 So I used to love playing football. 427 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,000 You know, when you, when you stop being able to, to see, to 428 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,480 play football, it's a huge part of your social life that you 429 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,360 have to let go of. You know, when you stop being 430 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:11,800 able to walk independently in, in at night time, it is a is a 431 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,880 huge part of your independence that you have to let go of and, 432 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,960 and, and so on. So there's always these things 433 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,480 that are happen at different stage happen at different 434 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:21,960 stages. When you stop being able to see 435 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,400 the TV to enjoy watching comedy and, and sitcoms and things like 436 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,960 that. They all these things happen at 437 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,120 different times. So you're always letting go of 438 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,800 different aspects of yourself at these at these different times. 439 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,400 You, you talk in the book about school a bit and about how other 440 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,480 kids treated you and also another kid who was at school 441 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:49,200 with you who who also had a visual impairment, and you think 442 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,960 they were sort of meaner to him than they were to you. 443 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,760 Oh, absolutely, yeah. So like, I mean, when I, so I 444 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,920 went to a number of specialist schools over my, you know, when 445 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,080 I, when I was a kid through to completion of A levels. 446 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,120 But when I was very young, I was at the mainstream infant and 447 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,080 primary school in, in the part of Liverpool where I'm from. 448 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:14,240 And, and growing up with kids, as my eyesight deteriorated, you 449 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,480 know, I couldn't see what was on the blackboard and, and things 450 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,040 like that. It was never an issue. 451 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,920 And, and, and partly because I think kids, you know, it take, 452 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,440 it takes a while for means to developing kids, doesn't it? 453 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,520 But also I was part of the furniture and as my eyesight was 454 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,240 deteriorating and I was acclimatising to it at that 455 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,240 young age, so were they. And so it was always just normal 456 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,080 within that context for everybody. 457 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,320 But then I remember being about 7:00 or 8:00 and another kid 458 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,360 joining our class who had these big thick bottle bottle top 459 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:48,440 glasses on, you know, and he kind of squinted through them 460 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,200 and, and, you know, looked at things a bit goofily and things. 461 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,040 And, and everybody was about 7 or 8 years old at this point. 462 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,480 And they, they were really quite mean to him. 463 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,320 And they take the Mickey out of him and, and, and it was because 464 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,800 he was, he was different to them, I'd say more so than I was 465 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,200 in because I, I wasn't visually different to them. 466 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,160 He had these big thick glasses on and they were, they, they 467 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,320 take the Mickey out of him and they make chants up about him 468 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:16,960 and things like that. And were quite mean. 469 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,680 But he was also new. And they, you know, he was, he 470 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,920 was a new addition. He wasn't part of the furniture. 471 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,800 And so, yeah, it really, you know, I, I always wondered like 472 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:34,200 how much that affected me, those kids being mean to him. 473 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,280 And I think it obviously did because I still remember it, you 474 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,680 know, and it's still, it still makes me feel uncomfortable now 475 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:48,880 thinking about that. And that I, I kind of didn't, 476 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,800 didn't stand up for him in a way because I didn't want the same 477 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,480 fate to be kind of bestowed upon myself. 478 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,960 But I also think it may be just kind of created its own little, 479 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,160 you know, bit of real estate in my brain that made me kind of 480 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,200 concerned about being the the new guy in other environments 481 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600 when I got when I, you know, when I, when I became older. 482 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,880 What did you think you were going to do when you were a kid? 483 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,840 When I was a kid in terms of, you know, a job and all that, I, 484 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:27,520 I always loved space. You know, I mean, I, I wanted to 485 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,240 be, if, if I'm honest, like I think the naivety of sight loss 486 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,200 when I was really young, you know, I, I, I wanted to be a 487 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,680 snooker player. That was the, that was the first 488 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,480 thing I loved snooker. I used to watch it on the telly 489 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,680 listen on the radio. If people remember that when 490 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,080 snooker was on the radio, oh, it was fantastic. 491 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,680 I loved, I loved snooker and I loved to play in it. 492 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,440 And then my ice, I got worse and I had to move to pool and then 493 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,600 chess. And outside of that, I loved 494 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,280 space. I always kind of had this idea 495 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,600 of being an astronomer or something like that. 496 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,280 But yeah, I, I just, I followed the path, the path of least 497 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,880 resistance really in, in just the things I had aptitudes for 498 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,720 with the geeky things. And in terms of the subjects 499 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,240 that you presented with at school, rather than the rather 500 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:23,040 than these hobbies that that, you know, space was really was 501 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,160 was was maths and then computers. 502 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,160 And and so I just. You might have ended up in tech. 503 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,360 Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, my degrees in software 504 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:35,960 engineering, so I, I certainly tried to end up in tech. 505 00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:40,200 But as I said, I, you know, the, the, the remains of me, I say 506 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,800 deteriorated early 20s to 25. And that's when I was qualified 507 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,840 in software engineering and I was trying to get a job whilst 508 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,720 also learning how to be completely blind. 509 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,120 I was trying to get a job in computers whilst also learning 510 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,160 how to use a computer completely differently to how I'd learnt 511 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,560 how I'd been using the computer throughout the last, the 512 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,960 previous 1012 years. So yeah, it was it was difficult 513 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:11,280 to to to follow that path at that point. 514 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,560 You you you also had a sort of a slightly surprising attempt at 515 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,520 joining the security services. Maybe I did. 516 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,640 Tell me about it, maybe you did. Yeah, no. 517 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,880 Well, as I said, so I was unemployed. 518 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,800 I was applying for jobs in computing, in computers and 519 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,000 accessibility. The first of all the. 520 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,120 I think the obligations and the desires for companies to hire 521 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:42,600 people with a disability are so different now to what they were 522 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,920 25 years ago. And, and also the obligations 523 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,160 and the desire for accessibility within computer systems are so 524 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,480 vastly different now to what they were 25 years ago. 525 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,320 And so, you know, I'm learning how to use a computer that talks 526 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,760 rather than using a computer with magnified text on the 527 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,280 screen. But in order for, you know, you 528 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,760 know, really quickly to explain it, like if you've got software 529 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,240 that magnifies text on the screen, it just magnifies 530 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,040 whatever's on the screen. It's irrelevant what's on the 531 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,800 screen, it will make it bigger. If you're using a computer that 532 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,000 with that that is reading things out to you, you need the systems 533 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,200 on the computer, the operating system, the applications, the 534 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,600 websites to be made with accessibility in mind or the 535 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,560 computer doesn't know what it's meant to be reading to you. 536 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,800 And so I was finding that I was trying to get a learner how to 537 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,920 use a computer that talks and also get a job in computing when 538 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,280 nothing was made with accessibility in mind. 539 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,440 You go for a, you go for an interview of BAE Systems and all 540 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,640 of their work would be hidden behind a highly secure intranet 541 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,000 wall, you know, and, but none of their systems were accessible. 542 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,560 And so it was like banging your head against a brick wall. 543 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,120 And I, I started applying for mad things that were nothing to 544 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,760 do with computers. And one of them was MI 5 and 545 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,560 they, they were recruiting in their words, spies. 546 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,560 And and I applied for that just as a bit of a a joke really. 547 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,600 But they took it seriously. Well, I mean, I took it 548 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,160 seriously, but I didn't expect to get anywhere, you know, I 549 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,360 mean, I didn't expect I, I, I just applied because it was 550 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,000 there. It surprised me that it was 551 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,720 something you could fill a form out to, to, to, to become you. 552 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,480 You think if you, oh, you're going to be a spy, you have to 553 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,080 solve a particularly cryptic puzzle in the back of an obscure 554 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,400 magazine and, and they hunt you down, they track you down, you 555 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,800 know, and offer you the job. There's a graduate scheme. 556 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,400 And I applied thinking, well, this would be interesting, but I 557 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:42,160 got, I got down to the last 1%. Thirty out of 3000 applicants. 558 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,920 I was in the last 30 before I I like to say they came to their 559 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:52,760 senses. So yeah, but no, I mean, that 560 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,640 was fun. But you you conclude that 561 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,880 experience by basically saying they were right. 562 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,480 Well. Because of your blindness, and I 563 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:07,600 found that surprising. So partly, yes, and partly I'm, 564 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,360 I'm, I'm joking to some extent part, I mean part of the job. 565 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,560 Listen, I'm, I'm of the opinion that not every, not everything 566 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,120 has to be for everybody. Yeah, there are things in this 567 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,240 world that aren't for me, and I'm fine with that. 568 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,440 Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with that. 569 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,800 You know, I'm, I'm happy that I live in a you. 570 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,600 You don't need to audio describe ballet to me. 571 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,400 Ballet is something that isn't for me. 572 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,800 It's a visual art form. It's a visual medium. 573 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,680 People like it. Go and watch ballet. 574 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,640 You don't need to make that accessible for me. 575 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,160 There are things in this world that aren't for me. 576 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,320 I, I did this whole recruitment process for MI Five. 577 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:54,760 Part of that job involved identifying A terror threat and 578 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,160 being swamped with information and having to identify this 579 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,360 threat and procure the services of the surveillance teams and 580 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,600 identify this threat before a terror attack was carried out. 581 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,960 Now I'm, I'm quite happy with them saying to me that my 582 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,200 eyesight is a, is a, is a problem in that because if it 583 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,520 takes me longer than somebody else, you know, it, there's a, 584 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,520 there's a thing where you, you're entitled to 50% extra 585 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,560 time in exams or, you know, companies have to make 586 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,720 adjustments, reasonable adjustments for disability. 587 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,480 I'm all for that, but but terrorists don't, they don't 588 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,200 give you 50% extra time before they blow something up, you 589 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,800 know, So I'm, I'm, I'm quite comfortable with them saying 590 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,200 there's a problem with you not being able to see here because 591 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,760 you're not as quick as everybody else. 592 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,400 And I can joke by going thank God for that. 593 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,320 I don't want to live in a country that would give me that 594 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,880 job where I, man, I can't even play I spy. 595 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,120 So there's a joke element to it. But I wonder whether other 596 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,920 employers might use the same thing less justifiably. 597 00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,920 Yeah. I mean, do I think that do I 598 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:04,600 think that there should be diversity in all walks of life? 599 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,400 Yeah. Do I think that there should be 600 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,160 blind people working behind the scenes in in in our security 601 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,640 services in MI 5, in the in the police? 602 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,320 Yeah, Yeah. Why? 603 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:16,400 Why? Why not? 604 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:23,680 But but not in a not in a role that has risk attached to it in 605 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,760 terms of if you are slower or miss something that it can be 606 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,560 detrimental to people's lives, which it would have been. 607 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,960 It's I'm, I'm quite happy to, to, to go. 608 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,400 Yeah, that fair enough, Fair enough. 609 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,120 That's that there's a problem there, isn't it? 610 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,320 There's a conflict of ability and what the role is. 611 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:46,320 So, yeah, I, I, I think that, I mean, we're back to the whole 612 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,920 thing with strictly representation is important, but 613 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,840 it's only, it's only beneficial if it's positive and if it's 614 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,480 good, not if too many allowances are having to be made to make it 615 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,960 work. Not if people can see through 616 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,680 the smoke and mirrors to go, this is not as good as everybody 617 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,560 else. This is not I, I need to be 618 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,080 representing in a way where I'm as good as the person next to 619 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,360 me, where I am surprising people. 620 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,640 And, and I think if I can do that on the, on the, for 621 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,800 example, on the telly, I'm aware that I might be a lot of 622 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,840 people's only exposure to somebody who's blind or 623 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,800 disabled. I might be the only blind person 624 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,040 they see. And they might have as a lot of 625 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,280 people do some quite kind of low expectations as somebody who's 626 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,680 blind. If I can surprise people and 627 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,120 challenge people, then the next time they encounter somebody 628 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,000 this blind, maybe they have slightly higher expectations. 629 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,360 Maybe they talk to them differently, maybe they talk to 630 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,800 them and not the person they're with. 631 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,200 Maybe when somebody's recruiting in, in, in work in a company, 632 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,280 they, they, they, they have a higher expectation of somebody 633 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,920 with a disability. There's positive aspects to 634 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,760 representation, but it has to be done well. 635 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,920 And, and I, I think that also applies within the workplace. 636 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,840 You need to be performing at the same level as the people next to 637 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,000 you, otherwise it doesn't filter through, you know? 638 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:14,320 So. So what about the turns of 639 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,960 comedy then? I mean, how did that happen? 640 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:23,960 Well, I mean, comedy was always something I'd loved. 641 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,639 I was a massive fan of comedy, you know, and right away through 642 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:31,840 the 90s, as I said, a loved stand up, loved sitcoms, loved 643 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,440 sketch comedy. I grew up watching comedy on the 644 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,159 telly before I even really realized that I liked comedy. 645 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,600 You know, you watch you, your mum and dad shows that are the 646 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,719 family entertainment shows that are on the telly, all hosted by 647 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,719 comedians and entertainers and things like that. 648 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,800 And I, I just grew up with it, loved it. 649 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:55,040 I was I I, I I decided to see if I could write 5 minutes of stand 650 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,600 up just as AI wonder if I can come up with 5 minutes that I 651 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,000 think is funny with no real intention of trying comedy. 652 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:06,960 Just I wonder if I can write 5 minutes of comedy. 653 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,840 And I wrote it and then you you look at it and you go, I have no 654 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,760 idea if this is funny. And you know, I'm sure you've 655 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,880 got friends and family. Yeah, where the, you know, if 656 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,960 you, if you do something that is a little bit of a risk. 657 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,680 Yeah. Is a, is a little bit kind of 658 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,560 risky and it's embarrassing if it if it, if there's a chance 659 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,600 that it could be embarrassing, doesn't your friends and family 660 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,760 are the last people you would tell about it because they'd 661 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,000 never let you forget about it. If I was to go to my mates, oh, 662 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,160 I've written 5 minutes of comedy, would you tell me if 663 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,720 it's funny? I you'd never hear the end of 664 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:42,400 it. Yeah, it would be if you, if 665 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,480 that was the only exposure you add to whether you thought 666 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,760 something was funny, they'd still be talking about it in the 667 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,200 pub 25 years later. Well, I remember when you came 668 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,400 to us with us Standard. Oh, it was shit, wasn't it? 669 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,880 So the the irony is, is that as terrifying as Try and Standard 670 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,480 was, it was a far more desirable risk. 671 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,000 And that was going to be the most, I suppose, yeah. 672 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,040 How do I know? Objective judge of whether it 673 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:08,600 was funny or not. How? 674 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,880 Do I know if this is funny? Well, the only thing you can do 675 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,400 is try it in a room full of strangers because it's sure been 676 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,360 showing it to your mates or showing it to your family. 677 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,440 And so it was a risk to do it just once and have a go and, 678 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,560 and, and, and obviously you do it once and then you go. 679 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,360 I wonder if I can get more laughs next time. 680 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,560 I wonder if I can do better next time. 681 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,200 And then that's what the boog is the comedy boog. 682 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,080 People talk about catching the comedy boog. 683 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,000 It's, it's that it's the desire to do it again and again and 684 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,360 improve. And then you become part of the 685 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,080 community, the, the standard comedy open mic community, and 686 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,640 there's real development that is all down to your own esteem, 687 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,040 your own desire, your own effort. 688 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:57,640 But even from that very first gig, I wanted to represent 689 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,520 myself in a way that surprised people. 690 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,320 So I didn't do jokes about being blind. 691 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,160 I didn't, I, I, I, I, I did stand up. 692 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,040 That was the kind of comedy I grew up living. 693 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,360 That was about everything and anything really. 694 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:18,320 And it was to represent myself in a way that made people forget 695 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,480 that I was blind. And I think there's, you know, a 696 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,120 psychologist that I have a field day with this. 697 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,480 I was trying to make myself forget. 698 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,480 I probably was, I was still becoming comfortable in my own 699 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,000 skin. I was still a long way off that 700 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:34,400 at the age of 262728. But I, I, I also think that 701 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:40,520 it's, it's far healthier to make people forget about the one 702 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,360 thing that they think defines you, then bash them over their 703 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,280 heads with it all the time. You normalise it more I think. 704 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,560 And what is it that you you most love about it? 705 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,200 Is it the is it the relationship with the audience? 706 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,760 Is it you know, where's the buzz in the bug? 707 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,000 So I mean, for me, there's two sides to it. 708 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,960 Like the, the the stand up side of it, It's it's, it's kind of 709 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,840 water off a duck's back now really. 710 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,120 It's such a natural environment for me that it's, it's the 711 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,640 enjoyment of having people laugh at the show and have people come 712 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,400 along and get a babysitter and want to spend the night with me 713 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,720 doing stand up for them. That, I mean, what a privileged 714 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,840 position to be in. It's a joy to get to do that. 715 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,080 It doesn't kind of strike the fear into me, you know, that a 716 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,240 lot of people would think comedy is, you know, I'm sure you don't 717 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:35,480 really get nervous going on to do the news, do you? 718 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,480 You know, it's just what you do. I'm sure the first time you did 719 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,880 a live broadcast, you were cacking yourself, weren't you? 720 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,640 You know, but it becomes second nature to you. 721 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,880 But what it does is it opens doors to other things that are 722 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,680 outside of your comfort zone. And those things are, you know, 723 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,320 the first time I did. Have I got news for you? 724 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,200 Oh God, terrified, Terrified because, as you said, I'm not 725 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,040 political, but but also terrified that I would say 726 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,160 something that was stupid. It wasn't even just not being 727 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,320 funny. It was saying something that was 728 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,200 stupid. And then Ian Hislop ripping, 729 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,680 ripping me a new one in such a hilarious way that it had to 730 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,920 make it make the edit. I mean, as it happens, Ian 731 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,640 Hislop is absolutely lovely. But now have I got news for you 732 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,920 is, is I always, I get a bit of anticipatory nerves because you 733 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,960 don't know what's coming up. But it, there's a, there's an 734 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:29,200 enjoyment to it for me, but you're always being asked to do 735 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,040 things that are outside of your comfort zone. 736 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,360 And that's where I get the, the a lot of the adrenaline from, 737 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,440 you know, is, is taking these risks. 738 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,640 And there was no bigger risk than strictly, yeah. 739 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,880 Yeah, and Strictly has opened lots of other doors for you, I 740 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,960 suppose, and that's you will now be asked to do everything from 741 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,400 documentary to light entertainment to everything else 742 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,720 in between. Are you going with the ride or 743 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:58,320 do you have a plan? I mean, you know, for, for me, I 744 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,600 think Jimmy Carr's got the right approach in that it doesn't 745 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,360 matter what is happening for him in the world of TV. 746 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,240 He will always carry on writing stand up shows and doing stand 747 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:15,240 up because it's the only thing that he is 100% in control of. 748 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,240 And he's in in charge of making sure his audience is there, that 749 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,640 he's, he's not, he's, he's always in charge of. 750 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,280 Having a career, do you know what I mean? 751 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,440 And, and so I think that's, that's the main thing for me is 752 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,560 that is to keep on doing what I love, which is stand up, stand 753 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,680 up. Without stand up, I wouldn't 754 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,160 have been getting anything on the telly. 755 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,520 But then without getting the stuff on the telly that I'd 756 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,200 still be doing the clubs, people wouldn't be coming to watch me 757 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,360 do stand up in theatres. And so it's a, it's a, it's a 758 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,120 precarious House of Cards. You know, you want to keep it 759 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,560 all, all, all standing, So keep on doing stand up and then just 760 00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,600 see really what what comes up in the world of television to to 761 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,680 keep on really not not only keeping a presence, you've got 762 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,680 to you've got to maintain a presence, but also finding these 763 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,440 things that are allow you to grow and are outside of your 764 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,560 comfort zone. So as you, as you said, you 765 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,680 know, you know, well, last year I did AI did a chat show for ITV 766 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,160 before I did Strictly. I, I, I wrote a film and made a 767 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,800 film for Sky with Lee Mack that, that was, you know, that was 768 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,080 something I'd never done before, but all within the context of 769 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,840 comedy. It's all within my wheelhouse. 770 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,040 Even though you're stretching yourself, as I say, Strictly was 771 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,360 that one kind of anomaly that was so far. 772 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,560 It was like it's own island. It was in no way did I have any 773 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,920 of those transferable skills to, to know that it would be a 774 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,840 success. But you know, getting to do 775 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,040 things like, as you say, do a documentary and things like 776 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,680 that. They're, these are all, all 777 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,720 incredible experiences and, and I love doing them, you know? 778 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,480 Well, long may you continue changing the world, even if you 779 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,440 don't exactly want to or or loathe the people who do. 780 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,480 If I can carry on doing what I'm doing and, and hopefully 781 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,040 represent positively and hopefully that has a little 782 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:19,680 trickle down, doesn't it, in my particular corner of, of, of the 783 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,560 world, you know, in terms of disability blindness. 784 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,040 And that's what I'll keep on trying to do. 785 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,400 Christopher Corson, thank you very much indeed. 786 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,800 Cheers mate. Thank you very much indeed for 787 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,640 that. I hope you enjoyed watching 788 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,680 that. If you did, then give us a 789 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,080 rating or review and then other people find the podcast and you 790 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,200 can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News 791 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,440 YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.