I think part of the problem we have is just how politics have
shifted over the last kind of few, few years.
So views that are now probably considered fairly mainstream 20
years ago, 30 years ago would have been seen as extreme.
There is this ecosystem now where 20 years ago, 30 years
ago, there was literally a social and economic consequence.
But for being a far right activist, you lost your job, you
got shunned by your family and your friends.
Now you earn a good living and buy a good living.
I mean Tommy Robinson, where wherever his money goes down
directly into his bank account or to other accounts, we'll earn
millions every year. Hello and welcome to Ways to
Change the World. I'm Krishna Guru Murphy, and
this is the podcast in which we talk to extraordinary people
about the big ideas in their lives and the events that have
helped shape them. My guest today is Nick Lols, who
has spent three decades fighting racism and extremism.
In 2004 he founded the advocacy group Hope Not Hate, which
became instrumental in defeating the far right British National
Party. Under his leadership, Hope Not
Hate has become a leading voice in the UK against hate groups
and far right extremism, whilst Nick himself has become the
target of countless threats. His new book, How to Defeat the
Far Right Lessons from Hope Not Hate tells the story of how
intolerance and hate have grown in Western societies and what
can be done to counter them. Welcome Nick.
I mean you spent a lifetime trying to change the world.
If we allowed you to just change this in one fell swoop, which
lever would you pull? What a question.
I guess what I'd say is we should all be nicer to each
other. If I could change one thing,
we'd be nicer to each other. We have better communities with
better families, better communities.
We have a better society. And things will flow from there.
I could talk about reversing climate change.
I could talk about, you know, alleviating poverty, curtailing
social media companies. But at the heart of it, I think
people are the agents of change and I think that if we can learn
to be better and live Better Together, then things will flow
from there. Those other things you mentioned
are all instrumental in combating hate as well, which we
can maybe come to, but I, I think we have to sort of define
our terms. You know, we live in a time
where the right is on the rise. But certainly in this country,
Reform, Nigel Farage utterly reject the label of being on the
far right or part of the far right.
And lots of similar parties across Europe do as well.
And they say we're not Nazis, you know, don't associate us
with that. We are not racists.
So, so who are the far right? Well, so for us, the definition
of far right is a kind of broad umbrella definition.
And within that you have those kind of radical right parties
who operate in the democratic process.
But then you also have groups and individuals who are far more
extreme, who look towards a more violent, violent answer.
But there's actually they share many things in common.
And why we would say that Nigel Farage and Reform fit into that
radical right. So that's the kind of moderate
end of the far right is because in intrinsically they they hold
a kind of racist, anti immigrant rhetoric.
They demonize the other. They're authoritarian in
outlook. They are, while they engage in
the democratic system, a bit like Donald Trump, actually,
what they want to do is dismantle key pillars of liberal
democracy. And and so I think that, you
know, they want to radically change the society that that
that we live in. And underpinning it is a kind of
racialized identity about nationhood.
It's it's about expelling people.
I think part of the problem we have is just how politics have
shifted over the last kind of few, few years.
So views that are now probably considered fairly mainstream 20
years ago, 30 years ago would have been seen as extreme.
And I'll give you one example. In 1999, the British National
Party had to drop its compulsory repatriation policy because it
decided that couldn't even win it amongst its own supporters.
And now you have politicians, not just Nigel Farage and and
Reform, but you've got other politicians basically talking
about the same thing. About taking away the right to
remain. Yeah, and it is totally
normalized in society. So I think the Overton window
has shifted so much that actually the cordo sanateur that
separated the far right of, you know, 30 years ago and
mainstream society has collapsed.
I mean, again, you know, racism and racist is the other very,
very hot word which again Farage and Reform utterly reject.
And they say, you know, they bluntly say we are not racist.
We've got people of all races in our party.
Zia Youssef, one of their most high profile people, obviously
from an Asian background. If you go to the Hope Not Hate
website, I know you've got a full sort of list of why you
think they are racist, but can you give me some examples of why
you think it's OK to use that word with regard to reform based
on what they're saying? Well, I mean, I think you've got
to look at both the rhetoric and some of their views of, of the
individuals, including at, at, at a, at a senior level, some of
the racist stuff. If you go to reform counsellors,
reform activists, reform politicians, they're littered
with people who've made the most vile and crass racist and
Islamophobic views. But then you've also got
policies as well and you know, a policy of really expelling,
kicking out people, people of colour to me is a racist policy.
So I think that and the conspiracy theories that that,
that, that, that go along with it.
Now sometimes when there's media attention, they have to suspend
someone or kick someone out. If they suspend them, they quite
often allow them back in a few months later.
But you know, at the last general election, we helped
identify the sorry reform had to had to get rid of 160 candidates
because of racist things that they were saying.
So it's not the odd bad apple. You know, there are many people
and of course there. Was also the Channel 4 News
investigation. Exactly.
Undercover with the reform campaign.
And, and, and I think that, you know, this is sometimes what
they're caught in public. I think that many reform
members, and not all of them, of course, but many reform members
will make jokes, will share racist things.
They will, you know, be abusive, particularly when they aren't.
They think that they aren't being being watched.
And how important is it do you think that you, you you are able
to use those words and those labels in the fight against what
you say is the far right, you know, because you know, they are
quite skillful, I think now at at making it very difficult and
a bit unacceptable to brand them anything other than a mainstream
right wing party. Yeah.
I mean, look, I think, I think we have to use these words
carefully. I think we can't just throw,
throw labels around. And also partly because the
people that we need to engage with don't often see that as
well. Yeah.
But I mean, we, we, we've just completed a poll of 45,000
people, biggest poll I think ever.
And almost 50% of people see reform as a far right party.
Now, obviously that means a lot of people don't.
But I think for us, we, we, I mean, for a long time, and that
was part of the reason we set up Hope Not Hate 20 odd years ago,
that just calling people racist, calling people fascist didn't
actually work. You had to, you had to both
understand why people were supporting the these groups and
you had to talk to them at a level that they understood.
It's pointless just demonizing reform as racist or far right to
people who don't think that because it isn't going to work.
We need to find other tactics. We need to give examples of
that, for example. Because people who support them,
a lot of people who support them, would also utterly reject
the idea that they were racist. You know, and you're talking
about a party that is leading in the polls right now.
Now you you've talked about some of the polling that you've
carried out. And I suppose we, this is not
literally carried out by hope not hate as it is commissioned
by home and by proper pollsters. Yeah.
So what?
What sense do you have of whether racism is is growing in
Britain or not? Well, I mean, I think that it is
probably two things. I think it is clear that opinion
towards immigrants, people of color, particularly Muslims, has
worsened over the last 12 months.
Now that's perhaps unsurprising given the political rhetoric.
Everyone's talking about them in very negative terms.
But what I would say, and and this is I guess gives me hope
that actually the British public are in a more nuanced and I
would say sensible position on many of these key issues than
you would imagine from the political and particularly the
social media narrative. Even on immigration, of course,
the majority of British people do not want people coming in who
shouldn't be here. They want to know who's here and
they want to find a way to get rid of people in a in a quicker
way. The hotels people are people.
People don't like that. But even despite everything
we've had over the last few years, but the Rwanda plan, the
small boat stuff, the majority of British people still want
Britain to abide by international rules and look
after people seeking asylum. The majority of British people
want to live in a multicultural society and see the benefits of
it. The majority of people, and
we're talking about almost four and five, four and five people,
want the government to do more to improve community cohesion.
So there is a narrative going around partly put by people
like, you know, Nigel Farage, certainly put by people like
Tommy Robinson. But then you've got this radical
right ecosystem that the country is at war, it's heading to civil
war, communities can't live together.
That's not the real experience of British people.
And I think one of the things, and I think this is one of our
big challenges, there is an, an absolute disconnect with
people's lived experience. So that overwhelmingly people
think their communities are safe and friendly and people get
along. They like the diversity to what
they think is happening on a national level.
And that's obviously what they're getting through the
media, social media and, and politicians.
So I, I think that, you know, one of the things that both in
the book and I've been arguing with politicians, you know, and
particularly Labour stop running after the right wing media
because that's not where the British public are.
The British public want to central debate about
immigration. They have some concerns, but
they also see the benefits and they want immigration to work
for Britain. And I I think that we need we we
we lack the courage of conviction of some of our.
But how? How do you do that?
How do you address the concern without being accused of running
after the rights? Well, I, I think partly it's by
talking about the concerns in a broader context.
The problem is at the moment, the whole narrative.
I mean, I, I can't remember the exact figure.
I think like 4% of people who arrive in this country come,
come via small boats. I mean, it's a tiny proportion.
And yet if you take the media or social media narrative, you'd
think it's everything. And I think the problem is the
politicians, they talk about the problems without also talking
about the benefits. And I think that's where the
British people are. Yes, they see problems and
problems that need to be addressed, but they also think
actually we have a duty, not just because of the law and
international law, but as you know, part of British values is
about looking after people. But also they see that a
immigration has contributed to the society and also as a
country with a the increasingly elderly population, we actually
need immigrants as well. Well, yes, except having the
thing that has changed there that the basic economic
arguments for immigration, which was always that they contribute
to growth. You look at all the OBR, you
know, you know, growth predictions, it's all based on
assuming a certain amount of immigration.
The opponents of immigration now have, you know this, you know
what they think is a sort of a sort of a hammer blow, which is
per capita growth down. Yeah, but I mean, I, but I mean,
I, I think also that we're in a situation where lots of people
can't work, for example. So how can they be economically
productive if they aren't allowed to work?
So, you know, but I think it's more than just about economics.
It's, it's about contribution to society as well.
And I think that, you know, just the very fact that go anywhere
in the world and people talk about Britain and they'll talk
about the multiculturalism and warts and all, and there's
always been problems, but warts and all, it's been a success
story. But now, partly because of Tommy
Robinson and his world and and that media ecosystem, the whole
concept of a multicultural society is now questioned.
Who is British? You know, you've now got
genuine, you've got mainstream politicians or political
commentators trying to say that people who were born here are
not British because their grandparent parents or
grandparents weren't, weren't, weren't born here.
So I think that there is against all that.
It's unsurprising that there's growing concern because people
are feeling that this is a big problem.
But actually, despite all that, the British public are still in
a better place. I mean, we we focused a lot on
reform for obvious reasons, but actually the Tommy Robinson end
of the far right is really where you have spent, you know, your
your life, you know, campaigning, fighting, you know,
you know, literally sort of political St. battles.
I don't mean fist fights, but I mean all of that happened some,
but I mean that that's been sort of very on the streets kind of
activism and things have changed quite dramatically, haven't
they? As you say, in terms of the the
mainstreaming of of a lot of these attitudes, The the book is
sort of a very, very detailed account of how you fought
campaign after campaign in in different areas.
Do you think the battle has moved away from the streets and
activism into online? It, it certainly shifted, but
it's not moved away as in it's not happening there.
And I think, I think The thing is, you know, and in a way,
going back to your first question, there is no simple
answer to anything. You know that there is clearly
the Internet and the online space has transformed the
fortunes of the far right. You know, not only when I first
started in the late 80s, unless you literally knew someone who
was in the fascist group, you could never join.
There was no website, there was no office.
You couldn't buy something in a, in a, in a shop.
You had to know someone. It was a very violent world
then. But I, I think and so, so the
Internet and, and in a way, the far right have been much better
at utilising new media platforms, partly because
they've had to, because they've been taken off certain
platforms, they've created their own.
Partly you've got super rich people in the US literally
providing them with, with platforms.
But you know, there is this ecosystem now where 20 years
ago, 30 years ago, there was literally a social and economic
consequence. But for being a far right
activist, you lost your job, you got shunned by your family and
your friends. Now you earn a good living and
buy a good living. I mean, Tommy Robinson where
wherever his money goes directly into his bank account or to
other accounts will earn millions every year.
I mean, that's it. That is the scale.
But I, you know, we, we cannot ignore the street as well.
Because I think what we've seen over the summer with the rising
rhetoric around hotels, the protests, the flags, which is a
kind of driven by Tommy Robinson's gang, the consequence
of that has been rising racism in society.
Now I have many friends who are kind of British, Indian or
British, British Muslims, whatever.
They're all feeling scared. And they're people who probably
haven't felt like that before. They heard stories from their
parents, from their grandparents about the 70s.
We haven't gone back to the racial violence of the 70s, but
the atmosphere of intimidation, the atmosphere that you're not
wanted, the confidence of the right is now palpable.
And So what happens online happens offline.
And that I would just give give you one example up in Burnley,
done a lot of book work and I talked about Burnley a lot in in
my book, there's this particular estate on the poorest
communities in Britain. There was a weekend in August
where on face, on the local Facebook groups, people are
offering flags going to put these flags up.
We've got 400 flags, put them up within 72 hours of the flags
going up on lampposts. And one of the poorest estates
in Burnley, one of the poorest estates in Britain, 6 houses
were attacked. Now actually none of them had
asylum seekers in, they were, they were people of colour.
Sometimes it's it, it makes race couples live there.
But that is the atmosphere that people who are racist and are
violent are feeling encouraged. And the rise of intimidation,
the rise of threats. The other thing that we've seen
this summer is a coordinated attempt by the far right to
harass, bully, threaten people in the progressive world,
particularly in the volunteer charity sector.
So I think that, you know, online, offline, it's all
connected and we have to fight on every level.
Just on flags, I mean, what's your understanding of of how the
flags have happened? Who's funded it?
Who's been doing it? What's really going?
On so there is a small group based up in the Oldbury,
Birmingham, Snevik area, a group of Tommy Robinson supporters,
some of the people really closely aligned to him, some of
the people who who are part of his security team.
They were the original people behind Ray Rays the colour.
So the the the X account that's it's run by them the the
promotion, the fundraising to do flags.
Obviously it it, it kind of expanded out and both networks
and individuals started putting out flags.
But the point of it was for those people organizing, it was
about trying to assert an aggressive identity.
Those people, I mean, like one of the main people behind it has
a conviction for his part in a racist manslaughter.
You know, these aren't just ordinary people who just feel
proud of their country. There is a political point to
it. They are so.
There's a massive naivety in mainstream media around this,
isn't there? Because, because it, you know,
because you know, it goes way beyond that group.
Ordinary people start putting up flags as well because they think
it's a good idea. Newspaper columnists start
saying, well, why shouldn't we be proud of our country?
Genrich runs around with his set bladder.
And it and it and it and it and it becomes one of these things.
Well, well, who? Who doesn't want to fly a flag?
Where, where, where in where? In fact, what you're saying is
there is actually quite an organized and deliberate
campaign with a name. Yeah, totally.
And and it's all about, you know, probably predicting how
people will react to it. Some people will take it down.
That causes conflict. People get angry.
But also it's that kind of it was all part of the summer about
reasserting our identity as in quite a defined thing of what
Englishness is. Now, obviously they would say
they're not and anyone can be English.
But actually, you know, for them, not everyone can be
English. And it's the same people who
were who've been behind raised the flags, who have recently
been in France trying to, you know, stop dingies who you know,
who doing all that. So it is a coordinated group or
a small group of very political people who are Tommy Robinson
security team. Now the the international links
are also interesting, aren't they?
Because, again, they are much more organized now, and much
better funded and much more linked than most people would
ever have imagined. Well, I mean, it's one of the
strange irony is because the kind of left historically always
seen themselves as the internationalists and, you know,
care about this struggle or that struggle.
And yet it is the right who are much more internationally
linked. But both in terms of ideas, in
terms of people, and increasingly in terms of money.
One of the things that we've been seeing, and not just about
Elon Musk, but one of the things that we've been seeing, let's
say on the kind of extreme right of the kind of Christian world,
literally millions are coming in from the US now to push social
conservative agendas. And, and what we're seeing,
particularly in the Catholic Church, the rise of what we call
post liberalism. So it's the ideas around JD
Vance which coincides with some of the kind of anti Muslim
rhetoric of Tommy Robinson, that there is a clash of
civilizations happening and that people can't be together because
Islam is a supremacist religion etcetera.
And that causing it all is liberalism.
Soft liberals who like immigration and multicultural.
Who are naive about? Exactly, exactly.
So you know, what we're also seeing is converging of
religious, political kind of views.
And I think the other thing that's completely different, I
I've been around long enough, I remember, I remember the day of
the Oldham riots in 2001. I was in Oldham on that day
following this kind of gang, this far right gang, Combat 18,
who had linked up with hooligans who were trying to instigate all
day long, trying to instigate. Police stood down 5 PMA few 3
taxi loads ran down the street attacking agents in the house.
That triggered the riots in Oldham.
But see, back in those days people saw everything on a very
local basis. It was a gang thing in Oldham as
well. It was about drugs, it was about
whatever us, our area of town against your area town, they
would put out the call on what they had those days, bulletin
boards. Come and join us, come and join
us. No one ever did because it was
an Oldham problem. Whereas now people all over the
country, all over the world see themselves as part of the same
cause and they will rise up as part of the same call and travel
and travel. And you know, and we see that we
see this internationally. So they are, you know, they,
they don't read all the kind of, you know, the theoretical texts
of post liberalism or whatever. But like the the Civil War
theory, which is now just everywhere on the right and the
Telegraph right articles is civil war coming, etcetera.
You know, 2020 odd years ago, these were just a handful of
people in the anti Muslim world who talk about civil war.
And now it's just commonplace. Now people don't know the kind
of they'll take bits of it and translate it to their daily
lives. Why is this your fight?
Part, well a large part of it was because my own upbringing.
So my mum came to Britain from Mauritius in 1961.
What's her ethnicity then? Mixed.
So there's her mum's side of the family came from the Creole
slaves and her dad's side of the family came from the French and
it was mixed. But of course in you know, and
she's in the 1970s. I grew up in Hounslow, W London
and obviously I mean back then it was a very white place, but
the National Front were on the March and I was, I grew up in a
kind of political house. We'd all watch the news together
and even as a kid and I remember seeing the National Front part
of the political broadcast, John Tyndall, the National Front
leader. And I had no idea how big or
small they were saying that all people who weren't born in
Britain will be sent back in six months.
And I was petrified. I was petrified.
And they say I had no idea they would get 1% of the vote, but I
just heard this bloke say it. My mom was going to get sent
home. I then we then moved to
Shrewsbury, which was again an even whiter area.
And you know, in the early 80s there was racism in the football
grounds, there was racism on the streets.
The British movement were around and I was always, you know, I'm
not dark and I've never kind of experienced the racism of some
of my friends and some of my family or whatever, but I was
always really conscious of it. And so when I got involved in
politics in the mid 80s, anti apartheid movement, I used to
hitchhike down to London to join anti apartheid at 15-16 years
old, anti apartheid activities in London.
Then there was a minor strike, Red Wedge.
I got involved in politics but anti racism and anti fascism was
always a thing I gravitated towards and.
I think people don't, people don't realize what it was like
in the 70s and 80s. I mean, I, I grew up a few miles
outside Burnley. I, I wouldn't go into Burnley on
a Saturday if I could avoid it. Or, you know, we'd stay well
away from the football crowd. I mean, and I, you know, I mean,
now I've got season tickets to my local club.
I mean, the idea of actually going to the football for a
young brown boy was inconceivable.
Well, and, and The thing is as well, yeah, because
understandably, people talk about the racial violence, but
it's the impact it had on everyone, you know what I mean,
of people of color, the fear and as you, I mean, even Shrewsbury.
I mean, you know, Shrewsbury is a polite market town, but I
remember going to football in the early 80s and you know, and
again, it might have only been 20 or 30 people, but it was in
the main kind of shed end of, of Shrewsbury ground would sing
racist songs, vile, vile racist songs actually were.
I'm a Leeds fan myself. I mean, Leeds have got its own
history of racism. But I mean, again, it wasn't a
lot of people, but there's no people of colour there.
And you know, it, it, it was frightening.
And I, I, I think that of course, we've not gone back to
that, that level and Britain has changed massively since then.
But over the last six months I have spoken to and I've, I hear
stories, people are feeling scared again now and people are
feeling less confident about going out on their own or going
out in the evening. And even the flags I've got,
I've got a friend, early 30s, works in the city, not
necessarily interested in politics, family friend.
And she had, she comes from a British Indian background. 11
morning, she woke up to see a flag outside, literally outside
the house in the lamp post. And she felt scared.
She's a professional. You know what I mean?
Who, whose life and who you know, racism is just not part of
her life. Racism is something her parents
told her about. And suddenly she just felt
intimidated. Isn't the other thing that has
shifted, though, that, you know, racism is, is very different.
You know, it distinguishes now between racial groups and some
racial groups are OK, you know, with some racists, you know,
there, there's a lot of anti Pakistani feeling, a lot less
anti Indian feeling because it's tied up with anti Muslim hatred.
And Indians are sometimes bizarrely seen as allies.
You know, I in fact, it's also works the other way.
I've been in India and people have come up to me and talked to
me about their support for Tommy Robinson because he's anti
Muslim in their eyes and they they were Hindus and were
therefore also anti Muslim. So there are weird alliances
being set up as well. Aren't they?
There are. And I also think it's reflective
that and this is something that's gone, I think kind of
largely unnoticed in the political world, the rise in
faith identity, which is now playing out in politics.
So it's increasingly playing out in how people vote as well.
So there has been partly partly in terms of the Hindu community,
partly because of Modi in and you know that rise of kind of
Hindu nationalism, you've had growing conflict or tensions
between Hindu and Muslim communities, between Sikh and
Hindu communities. So it's working on these
different ways. And obviously that's been Co
opted by people like Tommy Robinson say these are our
friends, these are our enemies. But what I'd also say though,
that amongst I say, general racists, a black person is a
black person, a brown person is a brown person.
You know, they don't always make that.
They, they might say, oh, well, they're not so bad.
But actually, you know, how many, how many British Indian
people are getting abused and feeling scared now because of
the situation? So I, I, I think that, I mean,
you know, so you know, the whole debate is Rishi Sonnet British,
you know what I mean? So, so yes, I agree with you.
There has been that splintering of communities.
And and also is that is that also a splintering of allyship
between different groups because, you know, as as woke
ISM has been undermined and sort of disrupted over the last few
years, different groups being picked off on them.
Yeah, no, totally. Both different groups have been
picked off and also groups are trying to avoid being caught up
in something. You know, so for example, let's
say the whole grooming situation, I, I remember this.
So this is going back probably certainly to Rotherham.
I think it before, I think it was before.
But you know, so for example, the, you know, when the I member
of press release, one of the main Hindu community
organizations, this, you know, we're attacking the media for
saying Asians. So it's not Asians, it's
Muslims. Then you had the Bengalis and
East London put out statement. It's not us, it's them.
So there's some of that. But I I also think that this is
a long term consequence of in the in the 1970s, that was a,
you know, a big movement, kind of quite a secular cross faith
movement about blackness and the youth, Asian youth movements,
things like that. That class came before race and
religion, and that collapsed in the 1980s, partly because of
youth unemployment and the collapse of kind of, you know,
of Thatcherism. It also collapsed as a
consequence of religious communities because they were
losing their young people, you know, so there's, I think what
we're seeing now is also a consequence of 20-30 years of
kind of religious communities trying to reassert their
identity on, on their communities as well.
You are very critical though of your own side and of
progressives on some of these key issues and, and and the
grooming gangs is is one that you really go into in the book
and you say that the progressives got this wrong,
but. I mean, I think, I think one of
one of the key things that underpins, I think my own
thinking is that we've got to be humble.
We're losing if we have an understand.
So if we're losing, obviously what we're doing is sometimes
wrong. On the grooming thing, I can, I
get really frustrated because I cannot understand how we got
ourselves into the situation. And I look at Labour, how Labour
got themselves into the situation.
To me it's quite simple. Grooming and sexual exploitation
is wrong whoever's doing it, and we need to think of the survivor
and victim first and work out from there.
I think that generally the the left generally has been poor at
it, wherever that's been, councils and councillors not
taking a grip of the situation, wherever that's how we become so
defensive about all this will be used by the far right or
whatever. We forget about the people
who've been abused. And I think that clearly there
are, there have been some issues in areas about nighttime
economies or, you know, vulnerable women.
I mean, many of the people who've been abused are
vulnerable people. The police haven't believed them
because, you know, a lot of them are in care.
They, you know, they don't have stable homes.
So people kind of keep an eye out for them.
They might be involved in petty crime or whatever.
Their stories aren't believed. And I just think that our
failure to tackle it and then is one thing, and then our kind of
demonization or being so scared to address it because, oh,
you're then racist or you're feeding racist narratives has
made the situation worse. And I think we're now in a
situation where in certain communities, it's now a toxic
issue. And we've allowed that to
happen. And I in the book I give an
example which to me was a really vivid example in Rotherham.
So in, in 2014 to 2016 period, there's I think 15 far right
demonstrations in Rotherham. Anyway, there was, there was 1
demonstration that there was some former miners, Maltby 7
miles out of Rotherham. And they were angry, They
weren't angry at the Muslim community, they were angry at
the council, their Labour Party. Now these are people who'd gone
solidly on strike for a year. They were good people, they had
joined with us fighting against the BNP in Maltby but they were
so angry. They wanted to show their
opposition to what the council their the inaction of the
council and the police but they didn't want to join the EDL so
they took a coach and this you know, this is the mindset 7
miles they get coach in to Rotherham and they March at the
back with a distance with the EDL because they don't want to
be the EDL. And they were walking through
the streets, men and women, local people to be shouted and
called racist scum and Nazi scum by protesters who probably
weren't from Rotherham. And they were so angry at this
they thought if that's what you think about us, well sod you.
And they quickened up and joined the protest.
So they were pushed, pushed into the.
Yeah. And we spoke to them after
because we, we, I mean, I, I wouldn't let, I mean, we, we
don't do those kind of counter counter protests or whatever.
But we heard about them being on the demo and stuff.
And we spoke to them a few days later.
We met up with some of them and we just said, look, why, why?
You know, they're going, yeah, but this is your, your, as in
the left's fault because you've a, you failed to deal with the
issue. And then you just shout at us
and we're not racist and we're not Nazi, but you've told us we
are. And you've done nothing to
protect our kids. So how?
How should anti racists on the left approach this new demand to
look at whether particular communities, particular
religions, Muslim Pakistanis on the whole, whether there is any
specific problem culturally or socially, that means they've got
a bigger problem, bigger issue with grooming than any other
social or racial or religious group?
Well, I mean, I, I, I so in the book I support an inquiry.
Now, when I the 1st, when I wrote the book before it got
kind of finally edited, the Labour government hadn't
approved the, the inquiry and I was condemning him for doing
that. What I'd say is we need that
inquiry to happen and it needs to be as thorough and detailed
as possible because we're in that situation that anything
less will this, this will still continue to, to kind of dog us.
But what I'd also say is that we also need to understand that on
street grooming by gangs, which is the particular type we're
talking about here, is one form of grooming, one form of child
sexual exploitation. And I think that we need, but
rather than hiding behind that because some people do, oh look,
you know, what about the 89% of white people or whatever, fine.
But we need to be proactive and say we need to understand all
forms of child sexual exploitation.
And I personally don't believe it is religious.
I think it's about opportunity. It's about, well, just in the,
in the sense of, you know, what's the nighttime economy,
you know what I mean? It's about opportunity, people
on the streets, people, you know, and of course they then
they become criminal gangs or whatever.
But of course there are other groups who do this as well,
maybe in different formats. And we we also have to
understand that, you know, look at the church over the years,
look at the scouts, look at, you know, and.
There was a very big white working class gang recently.
Recently convicted as well. Exactly.
But I mean, we can't dodge. We can't dodge.
We can't large somebody's difficult issues.
Exactly. And, and, but aren't we also,
you know, being a bit silly in a way in that, in that if I go to
Afghanistan, as I have done and made a, made a film about
violence against women and said there is a huge cultural problem
here, you know, in which, you know, young women are being
effectively forced into marriages or abused, you know,
by relatives. And, and, and everybody says,
well, this is, you know, this is, you know, amazing
revelation, well done, You know, and then we we don't go, oh, but
there might be a problem in this country with similar sorts of
people. And so I mean, again, in my
book, I talk about, I think I talk about.
So I, I came across this issue first in 2004 up in Keighley.
So there's a Channel 4 edge of the City series which was
following social Bradford social services and there was 1 episode
about grooming. And at the time it was running
up to the European elections, all out local elections.
And there was a demand which then got accepted that Channel 4
should push back the broadcasting of the program to
after. So following that, we knew Nick
Griffin was going to stand in Keithley.
And I went and met Angela Sinfield, one of the women who
had made a Channel 4 documentary.
And her daughter and her daughter had been when she was
12 years old, had been abused by 29 men, most of them related to
each other. So she got passed around.
And she was 16 when I met her. And she had only recently, her
relationship with her mom had only recently come back
together. But there were real issues here.
And their issues, not just in terms of the abusers, but there
are also issues in the sense of our communities doing enough.
You know, they've been stories in the media, some of these
trials about, you know, a man in his late 60s driving around,
openly driving around with his 13 year old white girlfriend.
And it's like people say this sort of thing.
No one's doing anything. About it.
And, and, and I kind of feel that maybe we're in the
situation where other communities were in maybe in the
1970s where we not that we turned a blind eye, but we
didn't really think about it in that context.
So I think there is some there's some really difficult issues
that that we have to have to address and we can't dodge them
because it would just haunt us forever.
And and similarly when it comes to extremist violence and and
and, and radical Islamist philosophy.
Yeah. Look, I mean, I think that
sometimes, sometimes we can forget our values and our values
have to be consistent. So for example, you know the
English Defence League, you know clearly much of the left would
be energized and come out against English Defence League
and let's say Luton. But of course the other side of
the equation is Al Majaroon and the harassment they were
causing. People forget, I mean there was
a terrorism as well, but what they were doing in Luton as well
and actually they were part of the problem as well.
And it's like how could we go and win support amongst one
group to say don't support the EDL if we're silent about the
other group? And also if you look at spikes
of anti Muslim hatred, spikes in support of EDL and Tava
Robinson. They come about by trigger
events, the Manchester attacks or the Westminster attacks or
whatever. A big Lee Rigby.
And we should we need to be not because just because of tactical
or political reasons, but our values, that the values of ISIS
and Al Majaroon or whatever are totally counter to everything we
believe. And it's like, you know, you
talking about going to Afghanistan, the attitudes of
Anjem Chowdhry and Al Majaroon, the type of what society they
want. It's this type of society we'd
all be horrified by. But again, sometimes we just
don't think about it. And sometimes we're kind of
scared into, oh, yeah. But you'll be playing into a
right wing narrative, you know, this idea that all forms.
And that's where British people are.
British people just want the sense of fairness and actually
the Islamist extremists are as much of A danger to the Muslim
communities as the white extremists are to to the white
communities and we've got to be consistent.
And, and do you think this is, this is doable?
I mean, you know, you, you acknowledge that effectively,
you know, your, your side is sort of losing at the moment.
Do you think this is doable by mainstream politicians who can
turn it around well or Or is it going to be about activist
groups like Hope Not Hate who have to do the heavy lifting?
Well, I think I think a small numbers of people will need to
do the heavy lifting, but actually we need the other
elements to work as well. I was really critical of Keir
Starmer and the government over the summer and even before the
Tommy Robinson demo, I wrote a letter to #10 which then got
leaked to the Guardian. But you know, and I was saying
that your silence is creating a vacuum which has been filled by
the far right. People are getting scared.
People need leadership. And it's not just about
condemning the violence, because the violence is just one element
of it. It's a different world view.
And actually, people need protection by the state, not
just physical protection, but they need to feel that people
will are there to support them and look after them.
Now. Now I think that, you know, Keir
Starmer did his late party conference speech and that was a
sea change from where he'd been before.
As he followed that through is probably another question.
But I'll tell you what has happened, which gives me
encouragement. The day after the Tommy Robinson
demo. Now I, I know the police say
150,000. I've looked at the aerial, the
drone footage, I reckon 300,000 people.
I mean, it was huge, huge and millions more would be watching
it online. And the day after I got
contacted by ACEO of a big charity and he said, look, can
you come on a call with a few of us?
We're all scared. We don't know what to do.
And he said there'll be between 5:00 and 7:00 as CEOs on the
call 3 days later. And I got on the call and there
were 48 people. And this is like all CEOs of the
top charities in Britain. And people are saying, what do
we do? Because people are feeling it.
And also people are feeling that their type of society is under
threat. But do you acknowledge with that
300,000, let's call it, they would have been just like the
miners in Maltby, a lot of people who do not associate
themselves with the far right, no.
Look, I mean, I, I think we've got to be, you know, we've got
to be, you know, people, people are drawn to it for all sorts of
different reasons. People are drawn to it.
They might be racist and might not think it, they might not be
overtly racist and they might be angry about other things.
And this is just our outlook. I've, you know, we've always
taken the view, even going back to the BNP days, you never
attack the people voting for them.
And but going back to the Tommy Robinson demo, so on the stage,
obviously part of our job, we sit there and listen re listen
to all the speeches. Not a single speaker spoke about
small boats. And that was the media narrative
all these people are angry about.
They didn't give a shit about small, sorry.
They didn't care about small boats.
What they talked about was how multiculturalism was a failed
experiment, how Islam was incompatible.
And several speakers spoke about expelling Muslims from Europe.
You had you had this Christian leader from New Zealand who said
that all non Christian Church, Christian places of worship
should be closed down in the UK. You had a great replacement
conspiracy theory stuff. The so the stage was a lot more
hardline. There were people there of all
walks of life. And we have to accept that.
And that should be the warning to us.
But I think that coming out of that, and we're in the process
of doing it now, we're saying, well, actually loads of these
groups, some of the biggest organisations in civil society
say, OK, we can't rely on our leaders anymore because they're
continually letting us down. We need to do it ourselves.
And so probably in the spring, there's going to be something
really massive by civil society and it's going to be positive,
it's going to be based in our communities and it's going to be
ultimately showing that every day people do nice things for
each other, people get along together.
There are many, many issues and issues that have to be
addressed. But fundamentally, the vast
majority of British people want to live side by side.
They enjoy living with people of different backgrounds, different
communities. And, and also what we find is
that, and all the data shows this, the more people who are
involved in community, in their community, the less suspicious
or hostile or afraid they are of the other.
And all the data shows that. So this is about a celebration
of communities in Britain. And I think that we we can no
longer rely on our political leaders to take a lead because
they are failing of all, of all political colours.
And obviously we want them to do stuff.
We want them to come on board. But ultimately, I think there is
power in communities, there is power in civil society.
Some of these big organizations, I mean some of the biggest
charities you can think of saying actually we need to step
up now. And I think that that that is
about to happen. I just finally, I mean, do you
think we're moving into a new gear politically as well?
Because now obviously Donald Trump is warning that we face
civilizational erasure in Europe.
That's going to be, isn't it, the next stage of the debate And
and somehow this has become normal politics.
It has become normal politics and certainly it's a throw down
challenge, but what I'd say is that gives encouragement to the
right. They will love it.
Oh yeah, you know, he's right with this, is what we've been
saying. How long?
But actually what we need to do is that most people in Britain
won't like that. They won't like a Donald Trump,
They won't like an American leader interfering in British
politics or European politics. People don't like Elon Musk
doing that. So actually in every threat
there's an opportunity as well. But what I'm saying, what I
think is important is that we don't just be anti.
And that comes back to why we chose the word name hope not
hate from the beginning. We don't just want to be anti.
It's about values as well. And we, you know, so it's what
what kind of society do we want and what what do we believe in
that brings us together? And I think that we've got to
push those values because values is about belonging as well.
And, and many of the people who are looking to the right now are
doing so because they feel abandoned, They feel scared,
They feel like, I mean, I think the big, the second stage of
globalization is AI. Now the government talks about
it in a positive way. You know, this, this is all
great. We can do this.
We do that. I'm sure you can.
Millions of people are going to lose their jobs.
In our poll of 45,000 people, the one result that startled us,
every time we do one of these big polls, we give people, you
know, 1520 policy options. What would you one thing the
government should do, the number, the second choice
chosen. Sewage is always #1 punishing
water companies always comes up #1 and we put this in as an
afterthought, protecting us from AI.
And it was really stark. No politicians talking about it.
But this is, this is what's coming down the line.
And this is going to disrupt many, many people and also
people who've not been affected by globalization.
And it's, it's underpinning. And you know, my book, I talk
about this, I think quite a lot, underpinning a lot of this, not
just in the UK, but across the West, is economic pessimism and
economic insecurity. And if a government cannot offer
security to people, economic security, and that's not just
about jobs and money, it's about community.
In the gel of community, people will look elsewhere for
protection. And I think we're in that stage
where people feel the politics has failed of all parties and
they're looking for some someone else.
And I think there are huge challenges ahead of us at the
moment. I do not think the political
class has risen to that challenge or even understand it.
They're running behind it. We need bravery.
But actually where things are happening and where I have the
hope is that there are amazing people doing amazing things in
communities up and down the country, often against the odds.
And I think my mission, my hope for Hope, not hate, is that we
can help those people, empower them, upskill them, support them
so they can do stuff on the bigger scale.
Nick Moles, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you for joining us and sharing your ways to change the
world. And that's it for this edition.
You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News
YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.