This is the first time in human history we are mourning in
future tense. It took six decades to ruin
democracy. Trump, Nigel Farage, Modi,
Erdogan, Putin. They didn't do this.
They are the outcome of a system.
A lot of people in in these transitioning countries,
countries that are not in authoritarianism yet, they don't
want to catastrophize. Are you saying they need to wake
up? They think that there will be
AI. Don't know somebody will do
something in the end. No, it's us.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World.
I'm Krishna Guru Murthy, and this is the podcast where we
talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their
lives and the events that have helped shape them.
My guest this week is Ajit Temulkaran, an award-winning
journalist and novelist who has spent years warning that the
collapse of democracy rarely announces itself with a bang.
Instead, it happens gradually. Institutions weaken, truth is
eroded, and what once felt unthinkable becomes normal.
AJ knows this first hand. After being fired from her
newspaper in Turkey amid mounting political pressure, she
watched her country slide towards what she says is
authoritarianism, a story she believes is no longer uniquely
Turkish but part of a wider global pattern.
In her writing, she argues that the real danger isn't just
strong men or populist leaders, but how easily societies adapt
to them. Her latest book, Nation of
Strangers, explores belonging and exile, But beneath it lies
the same urgent question that has defined much of her work How
do democracies fail? And can they still be saved?
And you're welcome to ways to change the world.
Thank you for having me Christian.
It's amazing to be here. If you could just change the
world, what would you do? I would make people believe in
themselves because I think they lost their faith in themselves.
That's why they gave up on changing the world.
It is that the route to why people comply with the loss of
I? Think so, Or they numb
themselves to what's happening in the world.
I think they think that they survive only by numbing
themselves to the realities, cruel realities of the world.
What do you think has happened in Turkey?
Well, in Turkey and in other parts of the world, and now it's
in Europe and United States, what happened was democracy with
its institutions crumbled and there was a political crisis
that is very present in Europe and United States today.
But then that political crisis turned into a moral crisis as
well. That's why people started losing
their faith in their political agency, and they lost their
faith in each other, in politics in general and in democracy,
certainly. What do you think is the root to
the losing of faith? You know what happens first?
Is it that people feel failed by their governments?
Is it that they don't have enough money to live?
You know what? What is the the dissent?
Krishna And I think it goes deeper than that.
I do think that fascism is embedded in neoliberal ideology
and the fundamental definition of human in neoliberal ideology
is self self-centered, selfish individual.
And I know that we are not that, but we have been imposed this
definition for such a long time, for six decades, probably since
1980s, that we started believing in that.
That's why I think it's not only saving democracies, but we have
to save the humanity from the state it is in today.
And in order to do that, yeah, we have to refresh our faith in
ourselves, in politics, in each other, in togetherness, in
humanity in future. So I think, you know, those
people who think that we can save democracies or our
countries, our homes by getting rid of certain political
leaders, they're wrong, unfortunately.
It's bad news, I know, but we have to go through a moral
transformation in order to put things in order in politics.
It isn't democracy, as we are all brought up to understand it,
rooted in the greater good, not just about ourselves.
Exactly. Democracy, if you look into it
deeply, at the very root of it, the philosophy is having faith
in people. Democracy is the regime is the
political system that it depends on having faith in our political
agency, in each other, in ourselves.
So I think what's what has happened in the last 6 decades
after Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, but mostly after 2002
thousand, was that that that faith has been erased.
And we were told that you don't have to think about anything
because there is no alternative anyway.
What do you think is the difference between strong
democratic leadership, which most people like, and
authoritarianism? There are so many things, but
then you know, as I told him, how to lose a country.
There are steps from that strong leadership or strong democracy
to fascism. And it always, always starts
with disruption of rationale and erasing the truth, blurring the
truth. And it begins with this, these
movements who tell people that they represent people and they
are above and beyond politics, they are clean, they are not
corrupt like other politicians. And then it goes on losing the
shame, you know, removing shame from public life, which is very,
very present in United States at the moment, especially after
Epstein files. And then it goes on to
disruption of the institutions or those institutions we depend
so much on become they literally crumble.
They come to pieces. And then at the at the very end,
these authoritarian regimes, or as I call them, fascist regimes,
they build their own country and they make you homeless.
You don't have to leave your country to leave lose home.
You can feel unhomed, as I say in National Strangers, while
while you're living in your own country.
You already felt like you'd lost your country.
Yeah, I felt like I lost my home.
I mean, she that, that refrain and the idea of getting our
country back is 1 people on the left of the, you know, the, the
authoritarian right and the left and the centre use.
You know, people say I feel homeless in my own country all
the time. That's the language of the right
right now in this country, you know, the language of well, you
know, we've got so many immigrants, we've got so many
people who don't speak English. You know, I, I feel like a
foreigner in my own land. Absolutely.
You're right. And This is why I think the
concept of home is at the epicenter of our Poly crisis.
The politics runs on the fear of loss of home.
As you said, it's on the far right as well.
They are saying that our homes are invaded by strangers.
So with this new book, I try to do something different.
I wanted to turn the tables. Yes, we are strangers.
You are right, but you don't have to help us, but we will
help you in understanding how you will navigate in these times
that you will need morality of survival because soon you will
lose your homes too, either to fascism, climate crisis or, you
know, political oppression, several other things.
You will feel like you're losing your home too.
And I, I, you know, we can under, we can understand this
fear. Let's talk about that fear.
I think today's politics is mostly about how you handle
fear. Most of the time on the left,
among the progressive, the progressives, there is this.
Oh, there is no reason to be afraid.
I think that's the worst thing you can do as a politician.
No, if there is fear, you have to manage that.
You have to say. You have to be able to say
something about it. And that's why, you know, I
wanted to write this book, new book, because now we are sharing
something. When I wrote How to Lose a
Country, I was trying to warn people, this is going to happen
to you in Europe and United States.
When I wrote together, I, I wanted to present a solution.
But now we're in the same exact moment all together.
From Minneapolis to India, from Istanbul to London, we feel the
same thing as if, you know, the ground is pulled from underneath
us. We feel homeless on several
different levels. We feel homeless politically, we
feel homeless morally sometimes we physically, physically lose
our homes. We lose our homes.
We we feel like we have no homes spiritually.
So I think that's why home stands at the epicenter and more
or less everybody feels it on different levels perhaps, but
they are feeling the sense of homelessness.
I mean, does embracing that idea that you are a stranger in your
own land, that you feel homeless, is, is that giving in
in some way? You know, is, is, is the answer
to resisting saying no? This is my home.
This is exactly what I'm doing in National Strangers.
I'm I'm telling if you are calling me a stranger, yes I am
a stranger. But wait, you are a stranger too
in this cruel world, you know what's happening around us makes
us feel like strangers. So let's talk about this.
Let us let's assess our reality, being true while being truthful.
And also let's humble together. We're all strangers now and
that's why I keep saying we're on the same page.
Finally, we are feeling that something is coming, and I think
this is the first time in human history we are mourning in
future tense. We all know that every beautiful
thing has its ending in the inside of it is is printed
inside of it. And when we see beautiful
things, countries, democracies, whatever you want to call it or
see, or trees, everything, every beautiful thing gives us the
sense of mourning because we all already know we're going to lose
things. And this goes for democracy as
well. We know that we are enjoying the
last bits of it, especially in Europe.
We can see the ending of it. And that's why people are
feeling so anxious and so terrified, I think.
In in your own case, in your decision to leave Turkey your
home, how certain have you been in the last 10 years that that
was the right decision to take to make yourself a stranger in
other lands as you chose to to to live there rather than
staying to fight democracy or for democracy?
Krishnan This is one of the most important reasons I wrote this
book, because it's an it's an impossible question that one.
And there there are letters. The book is made of letters and
every letter is written to dear stranger and there is a long
letter about this. You always ask yourself, did I
do enough? Was I too early to leave?
And I came to understand that that is an impossible question
to deal with on your own. You can only share the burden
with others and only then the question would be answered.
So how does it unravel? Well, how does it unravel?
Let me tell you something first. The the in the book there are 4
main questions. Who are you?
Why did you leave your country? How will you survive here and
when will you return home? These are the questions that we
are immigrants, refugees, exiles asked in immigration offices.
So I wanted to turn these questions to explain the real
story. When you decided to leave Turkey
and embark on this journey of sort of finding people
elsewhere, Yeah. What about the people you left
behind? Nation of Strangers starts with
a telephone call to my mother. And I say, mom, I'm not coming
back home. That was 2016 when I came to
Zagreb. And that was the first time my
mom in my life said don't come back home.
So it's it's a pain. It's such a pain to hear this
because this is the voice that always calls you back home.
Of course, friends, friends and family, I left them back home.
And yeah, 2016 was the first time they told me not to come
back because before that there were threats.
So I had to stay in London for a few months, Greece for a few
months, one year in Tunis, but this was the last time, 2016.
We're meeting, of course, and we're meeting always.
We form these dinner tables. And sometimes that's why I think
country is a table, you know, country is a table full of
friends. That's it.
And it's the abstract idea that surrounds that table with we
call country, but actually it's that table.
So how, how do you define yourself?
I mean, were you an an immigrant to wherever you went?
Were you a refugee? Were you an exile?
What were you when you left? You know, in these studios under
the spotlights, I've been so many times called Exile for
years and years, this brand, so to speak, stuck to my name.
I think people love that idea. They find it somehow exotic.
You know this. Yeah.
Damsel in district, intellectual damsel in distress, running away
from Barbarians, throwing herself into the arms of
civilization. I think it gives too much credit
to Europe to begin with. And 2nd, it's morally wrong
because I know that I'm a refugee.
I live in two realities. I'm in this media, you know,
under the spotlights now I've been asked my, I had the
privilege to tell my story, whereas I'm also on the visa
line, which I tell a lot about the book.
In the book, I am with the other refugees, immigrants, you know,
being treated the same way. And is is the distinction that
makes you a refugee rather than an exile, a lack of choice?
I don't. I don't think I choose it.
Many other people choose it for me.
When you're a stranger in a country, what's your your worth
always depends on what the new people that you meet think about
you. I think they give you this brand
and I think it's not for me, it's for them rather, because
feeling like Europe is still safe haven makes them feel
safer, making me an exile. That narrative makes them feel
like, oh, we're still enjoying, you know, the perks of
civilization, so to speak. If this is happening to us all
or most places, is there such a thing as a safe haven?
Oh no. When fascism was around for the
first round, there was America not only as a place to escape,
but also as an idea. Land of the free.
Now we don't have that quote UN quote America.
So maybe this should tell us that we are now finally
protecting our homes from political evil.
There is nowhere to go, but there is something to go to and
that is people. And this is what I learned while
writing Nation of Strangers. I always thought that I could
survive on my own. And you know, I should be strong
enough to survive on my own. That's what I've been told as
well. And while writing Nation of
Strangers, I learned that you can only survive through others.
And this gives you a insight, a certain insight that makes a
political solution more grounded.
Because then you can, you know, ground your political solution,
which is democracy in the faith of people in togetherness, in
connecting to other strangers. Because in the end, home is
nothing today but other people. And if you feel this, you can
act with the urgency to connect when connecting to other people.
You can act with the faith and the need so that your politics
is not just an ideology but also a Survival kit.
I mean, can you give me an example from your own life?
I mean, I suppose what you're saying is that the only safe
haven now is intellectual. It's in people's.
It's not intellectual. I'm talking about real life.
You know, I learned how to be a stranger, how to survive while
staying humane from the most unfortunate of strangers,
homeless people, refugees in dire situations.
They were the most kind people and they, you know, they told me
how to stay. They, they showed me how to stay
humane in these, in this precarious situation, so to
speak. How I think it's a, most of it
is facing the reality head on. And I'm not talking about
surviving like a homeless when I say this or surviving like a
refugee. I think what we need today in
the world morally and politically is facing the
reality head on. We don't do it.
We think that we do it. We talk about reality, but we
don't really accept the reality yet.
And the reality is really, really problem, you know,
problematic. Of course, we're losing
democracy. We're losing the planet, our
ultimate home, and we don't have much hope about our future.
So if we really accept this reality, actually it should
humble us. And this is what I learned from
refugees. And in order to build your home,
new home, new political, moral home, you have to accept that
there is no going back home. Interestingly, in Davos,
Canadian Prime Minister said that there is no going back to
old order. He was telling what I was trying
to tell. Actually, there is no going
back, not for strangers, not going home in not actual terms,
but also for the world to go back to old homes or old
understandings or ways. So we have to, you know, assess
that reality truthfully. And that assessment should make
us humble. Should have been a lot of people
in in these transitioning countries, countries that are
not in authoritarianism yet, but where democracy is weakening.
They don't want to catastrophize, you know, they
don't want to say everything is gone and I'm going to hell in a
handcart and my life is over and the security that I've known and
my family have known for generations is is gone.
They want to believe that there is a natural pendulum, that it
will come back. Things will get better.
We won't go over the Cliff edge and and in small periods of time
we tend not to go over Cliff edges.
You know 10 things tend to get steadily worse over time.
Yeah, are. You saying they need to wake up?
You know that that political Cassandra role, you know, I, I
kind of assumed that role with how to lose the country.
National strangers is different and I am different now.
And I'm telling people, yes, it might be worse than this.
It probably will be worse than this, but let's sit in this
uncertainty and let's really, truly connect to each other so
that we can really this time change everything and we can
rebuild a political moral home together again.
The steady, the problem is there is this abstract trust in
institutions and I'm now talking about politics, real politics,
so to speak. The abstract institute, you
know, a trust in institutions is I think dragging the ACT for
many people. We think that the court will,
you know, save us from this. We think that there will be AI
don't know somebody will do something in the end.
No, it's us. And when I talk about humility,
I mean this. There is nothing.
There is US. Only you know, it's me and you.
That's it. And this should be enough.
But in order to believe that this is enough, we have to
believe in each other. So, so in terms of this, this
book, I mean, you've been in your terms of refugee for 10
years nearly. How has your identity changed
over that period? My identity I have, you know, I
was somebody in Turkey and then overnight almost I became
nobody. That is a very humbling
educating experience because you then understand that home is not
the place you remember, but where you are remembered.
Nobody remembers you around you. So that is a very humbling
experience. And then you ask yourself truly,
not like in immigration offices, but you truly ask yourself, who
am I now? And then it takes a lot of time
to come to peace with the reality that home can only be
here. And now there's, you know, you
cannot go back. The home you long for is no
longer there. One, and for Syrians, for
Iraqis, for Sudanese, probably it's like this.
And the second thing is the long, the thing you long for is
in the past. It's gone, so it takes a lot of
time to come to here and now. And I think I managed to do that
through writing this book. That's why I'm I feel like a
different person now and I truly, truly believe that my
home is made of people. I'm living in Berlin and I keep
saying people, oh, I like Berlin, it's lovely Berlin.
And then last Christmas, but my friends were gone and there was
no more Berlin so and I thought, yeah of.
Course. So it stopped being home, Yeah.
And that's why, you know, people will have to learn to make
people their home. And once people become home, you
cannot let them go. You have to forgive them.
You can't. You have to be generous.
You have to be loving and so on. These words, love, generosity,
humility, kindness, compassion. These words are funny things
when you try to put them in political theory like I try.
To they don't fit. They just, they disappear.
But actually those are the words that we depend on when things
really go horribly wrong, when we have to survive.
These are the words that you live on.
So my identity became more humane.
I think I now know how to live on the kindness of others, which
is a very hard thing for a person with a pride.
But we will have to get rid of that pride soon, all of us, when
we have to survive, and then we will have to humble ourselves to
accept the kindness of others. Do do you think that there is
any politics which can embrace and take into account
relationships, love, family, trust?
You know, the, the, it's interesting if you think about
politics in, in, you know, in the West for the last 20 or 30
years, occasionally politicians have tried to grasp this idea
of, well-being, you know, of the quality of life, that growth
isn't just about economics. But nobody's really been able to
define it properly and, and, and knit it into a political
framework. Yeah.
Do you think it's possible? Well, I tried to do that in
together the previous book and with Nation of Strangers as
well, because people do not want to see that.
Fascism today, the new form of fascism, has an emotional
machine. It's like a electric seesaw.
It cuts people, it cuts the cuts all ties that makes you belong
to a place. And so we have to create a
counter machine, so to speak, or we have to deconstruct this
machine in order to be able to fight it politically.
People are exhausted, Krishna, more than anything else.
They're confused and exhausted. And this exhaustion has a
political consequence. It's not like, you know,
individual depression or like being bored or being, you know,
fed up with news. No, it's more than that.
What's happening around the world right now or what's
happening in our countries hit people very deeply and not
really, you know, every politician cares about that, or
intellectuals either. We found it.
We find it to, you know, many people, I, I don't, but many
people find it to, I don't know they, they, they cannot bring
themselves down to that idea that the people are suffering.
Yes, you see, how do how do you persuade people who who don't
instinctively or naturally or obviously feel that they have a
a link or a relationship with another group of people in their
country that they do, you know, won't the haves always feel
disconnected from the have nots? Class issue.
Yes, exactly I. Mean not not just class, but
immigrants, refugees, political division.
You know, there are always people who will feel secure in
their own group, who feel that they don't have anything in
common with the strangers. Yeah.
I mean, what you're saying is we should all find the threads.
The thread is simple, but it takes a little bit courage to
realize that especially refugees and the poor refugees, let's say
underprivileged refugees, they are seen as people that are
asking for help. And there's this perception
about strangers in general. Oh, these people came to our
country, so we need to help them out.
It's exactly the opposite. I mean, like, we've got here to
help you. We know how you're going to lose
your country. So let us tell you what's going
to happen and at least what you should not do.
What do you think is going to happen here?
If we're going to lose our country, how will that happen?
It's not Losing your country is not like somebody invading it.
Well, that now with Trump, that's also possible, obviously
for Greenlanders at least. But it.
I mean, a lot of Americans do feel that they've sort of been
invaded, that they've lost their country.
Violence, I'm sure people in Minnesota, Minnesota,
Minneapolis, they feel like they are under attack in their own
homes in their own country. And that is I always see
Minneapolis like a micro nation of strangers because what they
are doing there, people are dead.
They ousted eyes to begin with, but throughout that time there
was it was horrible. The violence was horrible,
terrifying, but what they did, they supported each other, they
held onto each other, and they didn't let it go.
They were strangers to each other and they formed a nation
of strangers. Minneapolis is a very good
preview of of future, I think. And you don't have to leave your
home to feel homeless. When you feel threatened, when
your regime, your government tells you that you do not count
as normal citizen, I treat you as enemy.
That's when you lose your home. But Minneapolis, I'm sure many
people suffer. Of course, many people suffer.
But then I'm pretty sure they also lived best days of their
lives as well because they defended their dignity together.
And you ask me, you know, what is home or who are you?
Now? I came to understand that home
is other people. And it's it you build it by
holding each other when your hands are full.
So what's happening in Minneapolis is important.
It happened in several other places in the world.
But when it happens in the United States, of course, we
watch all together. So yeah, that's a preview to the
future, I think. What's your not?
In terms of like everybody, you know, every city is going to be
attacked, but we will have to hold on to each other, which
with such conviction, so to speak.
If if we are losing ourselves and our home and our country in
Britain, how, how do you think it plays out?
How do you think it happens? Starmer called this country
Island of Strangers. I think it starts there when,
you know, if everybody could say that we are all strangers and we
are proud strangers, who are you?
I think that would make everyone feel like, yeah, we're at home
here. Those who makes us feel like
strangers, they are not at home with humanity and with
themselves. Of course, far right Nigel
Farage and his lives and so on. They are becoming stronger and
stronger. I remember Nigel Farage in 2016,
nobody was taking him seriously and he has become the most
important political figure in this most impactful figure in
this country, unfortunately. So yeah, I think people lost
faith in democracy in general, but it's not their mistake.
Democracy did not fulfill its promise.
That's why these people are becoming so powerful.
Democracy's fundamental promise was equality.
But our reality, which is hardcore cut truth, capitalism
tells us that there is no equality, There will be not
equality. So those two things clash and I
think we didn't support democracy enough against the
other promise. But the the pessimistic part of
what you're saying is also that you're, you're not, you don't
seem to believe that there is a political solution.
You know that democracy can be rescued by good politics and
good politician. Oh, it's not going to be rescued
with the existing tools for sure.
Why not? Why not?
Because, as I told you,
democracy in its current state is a theatrics of itself, and
everybody knows that. Nobody's stupid.
Everybody knows that if a system is constantly telling them, you
know, you have equal rights, you have equal voting rights and so
on. But meanwhile, the bigger and
the deeper reality is exactly the opposite of that.
Of course, people would go to those leader who say that I am
with you, I'm going to save you from this oppressive elite, of
course, and we have to understand them as well.
We don't have to accept, but we have to understand this is
politics. It's, it's not going to be easy.
But it took from 1980, how many decades, 66 decades?
It took six decades to ruin democracy.
Trump, Nigel Farage, Modi, Erdogan, these people put in,
they didn't do this. They are the outcome of a system
that really killed the fundamental promise of
democracy. So yes, unfortunately, it will
take a few decades to build this up.
So we have to redefine democracy.
We have to talk about real democracy.
We have to talk about the economic system we're living in,
the real equality. And unless a politician truly
promises this, you know that true equality and dignity, I
think it has no chance. And people, I think, waiting for
that courage from politicians. So, so finally, can you give us
some tips then in terms of what you've learned over 10 years?
I mean, you say what you've learned is that home is, is is
people, you're people. That's really, really hard for a
lot of people. It is forming relationships
isn't easy. You know, forming bonds isn't
easy for a lot of people. But what have you learned about
how you do this? You, you, you don't.
If you don't have to learn this, you don't learn this.
I had to learn it. That's why I know now.
And I didn't like learning this either because it's either the
dominant morality we're living in, or it's my upbringing.
I was always supposed to be very strong, very brave,
self-sustaining and so on. And I think it's probably
dominant morality because it always tells us like, you know,
the self is important. We have to take care of
ourselves, we have to be powerful individuals and so on.
No, it's bullshit. We can only take care of each
other because being human is such a difficult thing,
especially in these times. So carrying the burden of the
self, carrying the burden of being human is so difficult.
You have to have other people too.
And you don't have to learn this unless you have to survive
really, as a stranger. But I think many, many more
people will have to experience this.
I'm talking about these dark stuff.
And then you're telling that I'm a no, actually a nation of
strangers is good news. It's like, am I able?
Am I allowed to say these things?
I don't know. We are in the damn same shit
together. Let's survive together.
When I talk about humility, when I talk about truthfulness in
assessing the reality, this is what I mean.
We are in the same visa line together, and we're trying to
get to the other side, to the more humane side.
Humane times. And those visa lines, they look
horrible from outside. Of course, it's miserable.
Miserables of the world coming together, waiting in visa lines.
I've been through that a lot. But there is amazing poetry
there as well, the poetry of being human, because there's a
lot of humor. There's a lot of solidarity,
random solidarity with strangers.
And you learn there that there is a language of strangers,
There is a way of being there, and there is a way to stay
humane despite all the misery. And that exact same, you know,
language will be used by us soon because we will have to drop the
ACT. We are still dragging the ACT
that everything will be back to normal soon.
Could you tell me a bit more about the language of strangers?
I mean, this is something I guess I've seen as well, amongst
refugees particularly. Yeah, humour and the way people
get on and force themselves to get on in in the most dire
situations. Yeah.
Tell me a little bit more About what?
You've but they don't get on on their own.
That's important. They get on together.
It's like falling together. Actually.
We're falling together and beholding to each other on to
each other. And yeah, there's a lot of
gallows humor to start with. And there's always certain
directness, which might come across as bluntness to other
people or impolite. But, you know, nobody in these
studios asked me about my status, you know, residency
status. When I meet a stranger.
This is the first question. What's your status like?
Are you on permanent or temporary?
Did you apply for citizenship? These are real things and it's
lovely. It it is a different kind of
kindness. It's a different kind of
generosity. It's harsh, but it's nice.
And also I think we help each other by gallows humor.
That's that's happening a lot. I have a, one of the characters
in the book, not characters. Ayotte is a real person.
Another stranger from Syria. Whenever I call him, he's, he's
having really, really, really difficult life at the moment.
But, you know, he's the one who can cheer me because he knows
what being really bad means. So he always asks, like I was,
So how are you going to commit suicide?
You don't do this to other people.
And many, many of us, by the way, and especially with Syrian
refugees, they tell the same story.
We tell our stories to each other in real, in a real way,
you know, with all the details and so on, with laughter, a lot
of laughter. And then I heard this a lot of
times. But of course I don't tell this
to Germans, but of course I don't tell this to British.
Why? Because they would be
traumatized. So yeah, it's, I think assessing
reality with humility, humor, and a profound kind of
generosity and kindness. And what is your status?
I won't tell you I'm in my intellectual dumb cell mode now.
Quran. Thank you very much.
Indeed. Thank you, Krishna.
Thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed that.
You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News
YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.