1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,280 This is the first time in human history we are mourning in 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,040 future tense. It took six decades to ruin 3 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:12,040 democracy. Trump, Nigel Farage, Modi, 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,280 Erdogan, Putin. They didn't do this. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,960 They are the outcome of a system. 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,160 A lot of people in in these transitioning countries, 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,640 countries that are not in authoritarianism yet, they don't 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,240 want to catastrophize. Are you saying they need to wake 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:28,680 up? They think that there will be 10 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,360 AI. Don't know somebody will do 11 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,840 something in the end. No, it's us. 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,000 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,560 I'm Krishna Guru Murthy, and this is the podcast where we 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,960 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,240 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 16 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,680 My guest this week is Ajit Temulkaran, an award-winning 17 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,880 journalist and novelist who has spent years warning that the 18 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,680 collapse of democracy rarely announces itself with a bang. 19 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,640 Instead, it happens gradually. Institutions weaken, truth is 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,120 eroded, and what once felt unthinkable becomes normal. 21 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,520 AJ knows this first hand. After being fired from her 22 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,640 newspaper in Turkey amid mounting political pressure, she 23 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,320 watched her country slide towards what she says is 24 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,880 authoritarianism, a story she believes is no longer uniquely 25 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,800 Turkish but part of a wider global pattern. 26 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,120 In her writing, she argues that the real danger isn't just 27 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,480 strong men or populist leaders, but how easily societies adapt 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,880 to them. Her latest book, Nation of 29 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,040 Strangers, explores belonging and exile, But beneath it lies 30 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,360 the same urgent question that has defined much of her work How 31 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,640 do democracies fail? And can they still be saved? 32 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,080 And you're welcome to ways to change the world. 33 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:43,680 Thank you for having me Christian. 34 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,040 It's amazing to be here. If you could just change the 35 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,440 world, what would you do? I would make people believe in 36 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,200 themselves because I think they lost their faith in themselves. 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,960 That's why they gave up on changing the world. 38 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,720 It is that the route to why people comply with the loss of 39 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,400 I? Think so, Or they numb 40 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,960 themselves to what's happening in the world. 41 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,680 I think they think that they survive only by numbing 42 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,080 themselves to the realities, cruel realities of the world. 43 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,120 What do you think has happened in Turkey? 44 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,000 Well, in Turkey and in other parts of the world, and now it's 45 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,880 in Europe and United States, what happened was democracy with 46 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,280 its institutions crumbled and there was a political crisis 47 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,040 that is very present in Europe and United States today. 48 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,360 But then that political crisis turned into a moral crisis as 49 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,600 well. That's why people started losing 50 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,880 their faith in their political agency, and they lost their 51 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,600 faith in each other, in politics in general and in democracy, 52 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,920 certainly. What do you think is the root to 53 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:50,000 the losing of faith? You know what happens first? 54 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,080 Is it that people feel failed by their governments? 55 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,720 Is it that they don't have enough money to live? 56 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,000 You know what? What is the the dissent? 57 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,240 Krishna And I think it goes deeper than that. 58 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:07,400 I do think that fascism is embedded in neoliberal ideology 59 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,440 and the fundamental definition of human in neoliberal ideology 60 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,720 is self self-centered, selfish individual. 61 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,680 And I know that we are not that, but we have been imposed this 62 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,720 definition for such a long time, for six decades, probably since 63 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,360 1980s, that we started believing in that. 64 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,080 That's why I think it's not only saving democracies, but we have 65 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,560 to save the humanity from the state it is in today. 66 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,400 And in order to do that, yeah, we have to refresh our faith in 67 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,840 ourselves, in politics, in each other, in togetherness, in 68 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,320 humanity in future. So I think, you know, those 69 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,000 people who think that we can save democracies or our 70 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,560 countries, our homes by getting rid of certain political 71 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,040 leaders, they're wrong, unfortunately. 72 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,840 It's bad news, I know, but we have to go through a moral 73 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,320 transformation in order to put things in order in politics. 74 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,560 It isn't democracy, as we are all brought up to understand it, 75 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,920 rooted in the greater good, not just about ourselves. 76 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,920 Exactly. Democracy, if you look into it 77 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,920 deeply, at the very root of it, the philosophy is having faith 78 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,560 in people. Democracy is the regime is the 79 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,280 political system that it depends on having faith in our political 80 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:29,760 agency, in each other, in ourselves. 81 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,520 So I think what's what has happened in the last 6 decades 82 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:41,040 after Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, but mostly after 2002 83 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,640 thousand, was that that that faith has been erased. 84 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,320 And we were told that you don't have to think about anything 85 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,280 because there is no alternative anyway. 86 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,400 What do you think is the difference between strong 87 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,880 democratic leadership, which most people like, and 88 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:03,440 authoritarianism? There are so many things, but 89 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,960 then you know, as I told him, how to lose a country. 90 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:10,680 There are steps from that strong leadership or strong democracy 91 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,520 to fascism. And it always, always starts 92 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,560 with disruption of rationale and erasing the truth, blurring the 93 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,080 truth. And it begins with this, these 94 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,960 movements who tell people that they represent people and they 95 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,160 are above and beyond politics, they are clean, they are not 96 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,560 corrupt like other politicians. And then it goes on losing the 97 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,680 shame, you know, removing shame from public life, which is very, 98 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,200 very present in United States at the moment, especially after 99 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,000 Epstein files. And then it goes on to 100 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,200 disruption of the institutions or those institutions we depend 101 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,760 so much on become they literally crumble. 102 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,040 They come to pieces. And then at the at the very end, 103 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,600 these authoritarian regimes, or as I call them, fascist regimes, 104 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,160 they build their own country and they make you homeless. 105 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,400 You don't have to leave your country to leave lose home. 106 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,720 You can feel unhomed, as I say in National Strangers, while 107 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,600 while you're living in your own country. 108 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,480 You already felt like you'd lost your country. 109 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,600 Yeah, I felt like I lost my home. 110 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,360 I mean, she that, that refrain and the idea of getting our 111 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,920 country back is 1 people on the left of the, you know, the, the 112 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,040 authoritarian right and the left and the centre use. 113 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,880 You know, people say I feel homeless in my own country all 114 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,960 the time. That's the language of the right 115 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,720 right now in this country, you know, the language of well, you 116 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,320 know, we've got so many immigrants, we've got so many 117 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,480 people who don't speak English. You know, I, I feel like a 118 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,720 foreigner in my own land. Absolutely. 119 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,520 You're right. And This is why I think the 120 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,320 concept of home is at the epicenter of our Poly crisis. 121 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,640 The politics runs on the fear of loss of home. 122 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,160 As you said, it's on the far right as well. 123 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,960 They are saying that our homes are invaded by strangers. 124 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:10,720 So with this new book, I try to do something different. 125 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,920 I wanted to turn the tables. Yes, we are strangers. 126 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,360 You are right, but you don't have to help us, but we will 127 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,400 help you in understanding how you will navigate in these times 128 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,800 that you will need morality of survival because soon you will 129 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:32,320 lose your homes too, either to fascism, climate crisis or, you 130 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,320 know, political oppression, several other things. 131 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,800 You will feel like you're losing your home too. 132 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,200 And I, I, you know, we can under, we can understand this 133 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,760 fear. Let's talk about that fear. 134 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,640 I think today's politics is mostly about how you handle 135 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,120 fear. Most of the time on the left, 136 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,440 among the progressive, the progressives, there is this. 137 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,160 Oh, there is no reason to be afraid. 138 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,520 I think that's the worst thing you can do as a politician. 139 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,040 No, if there is fear, you have to manage that. 140 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,360 You have to say. You have to be able to say 141 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,520 something about it. And that's why, you know, I 142 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,480 wanted to write this book, new book, because now we are sharing 143 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,120 something. When I wrote How to Lose a 144 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,560 Country, I was trying to warn people, this is going to happen 145 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,200 to you in Europe and United States. 146 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,320 When I wrote together, I, I wanted to present a solution. 147 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,720 But now we're in the same exact moment all together. 148 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:31,320 From Minneapolis to India, from Istanbul to London, we feel the 149 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,440 same thing as if, you know, the ground is pulled from underneath 150 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,799 us. We feel homeless on several 151 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,840 different levels. We feel homeless politically, we 152 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,000 feel homeless morally sometimes we physically, physically lose 153 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,840 our homes. We lose our homes. 154 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,840 We we feel like we have no homes spiritually. 155 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,000 So I think that's why home stands at the epicenter and more 156 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,600 or less everybody feels it on different levels perhaps, but 157 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,080 they are feeling the sense of homelessness. 158 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:08,080 I mean, does embracing that idea that you are a stranger in your 159 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,160 own land, that you feel homeless, is, is that giving in 160 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,120 in some way? You know, is, is, is the answer 161 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,360 to resisting saying no? This is my home. 162 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,760 This is exactly what I'm doing in National Strangers. 163 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,040 I'm I'm telling if you are calling me a stranger, yes I am 164 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,000 a stranger. But wait, you are a stranger too 165 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,440 in this cruel world, you know what's happening around us makes 166 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,480 us feel like strangers. So let's talk about this. 167 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:43,080 Let us let's assess our reality, being true while being truthful. 168 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,680 And also let's humble together. We're all strangers now and 169 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,720 that's why I keep saying we're on the same page. 170 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:55,200 Finally, we are feeling that something is coming, and I think 171 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:00,440 this is the first time in human history we are mourning in 172 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,240 future tense. We all know that every beautiful 173 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,800 thing has its ending in the inside of it is is printed 174 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,080 inside of it. And when we see beautiful 175 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,920 things, countries, democracies, whatever you want to call it or 176 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:22,000 see, or trees, everything, every beautiful thing gives us the 177 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,560 sense of mourning because we all already know we're going to lose 178 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:28,000 things. And this goes for democracy as 179 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,160 well. We know that we are enjoying the 180 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,600 last bits of it, especially in Europe. 181 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,480 We can see the ending of it. And that's why people are 182 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,600 feeling so anxious and so terrified, I think. 183 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:43,640 In in your own case, in your decision to leave Turkey your 184 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:51,840 home, how certain have you been in the last 10 years that that 185 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,960 was the right decision to take to make yourself a stranger in 186 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,960 other lands as you chose to to to live there rather than 187 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,720 staying to fight democracy or for democracy? 188 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,320 Krishnan This is one of the most important reasons I wrote this 189 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,520 book, because it's an it's an impossible question that one. 190 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,360 And there there are letters. The book is made of letters and 191 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:24,400 every letter is written to dear stranger and there is a long 192 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,680 letter about this. You always ask yourself, did I 193 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,240 do enough? Was I too early to leave? 194 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,040 And I came to understand that that is an impossible question 195 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,680 to deal with on your own. You can only share the burden 196 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:44,000 with others and only then the question would be answered. 197 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:49,440 So how does it unravel? Well, how does it unravel? 198 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,720 Let me tell you something first. The the in the book there are 4 199 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,200 main questions. Who are you? 200 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,680 Why did you leave your country? How will you survive here and 201 00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:05,920 when will you return home? These are the questions that we 202 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,920 are immigrants, refugees, exiles asked in immigration offices. 203 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,720 So I wanted to turn these questions to explain the real 204 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,160 story. When you decided to leave Turkey 205 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,960 and embark on this journey of sort of finding people 206 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,240 elsewhere, Yeah. What about the people you left 207 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,280 behind? Nation of Strangers starts with 208 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,680 a telephone call to my mother. And I say, mom, I'm not coming 209 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,560 back home. That was 2016 when I came to 210 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:41,560 Zagreb. And that was the first time my 211 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:44,480 mom in my life said don't come back home. 212 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,080 So it's it's a pain. It's such a pain to hear this 213 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,360 because this is the voice that always calls you back home. 214 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:59,080 Of course, friends, friends and family, I left them back home. 215 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,760 And yeah, 2016 was the first time they told me not to come 216 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,360 back because before that there were threats. 217 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,760 So I had to stay in London for a few months, Greece for a few 218 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:15,160 months, one year in Tunis, but this was the last time, 2016. 219 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:23,280 We're meeting, of course, and we're meeting always. 220 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,120 We form these dinner tables. And sometimes that's why I think 221 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,560 country is a table, you know, country is a table full of 222 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:32,560 friends. That's it. 223 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:38,240 And it's the abstract idea that surrounds that table with we 224 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,400 call country, but actually it's that table. 225 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,160 So how, how do you define yourself? 226 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,760 I mean, were you an an immigrant to wherever you went? 227 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,280 Were you a refugee? Were you an exile? 228 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:53,840 What were you when you left? You know, in these studios under 229 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,040 the spotlights, I've been so many times called Exile for 230 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,920 years and years, this brand, so to speak, stuck to my name. 231 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,040 I think people love that idea. They find it somehow exotic. 232 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:08,800 You know this. Yeah. 233 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,840 Damsel in district, intellectual damsel in distress, running away 234 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,920 from Barbarians, throwing herself into the arms of 235 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,880 civilization. I think it gives too much credit 236 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,400 to Europe to begin with. And 2nd, it's morally wrong 237 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,320 because I know that I'm a refugee. 238 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,360 I live in two realities. I'm in this media, you know, 239 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,960 under the spotlights now I've been asked my, I had the 240 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,200 privilege to tell my story, whereas I'm also on the visa 241 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,520 line, which I tell a lot about the book. 242 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,720 In the book, I am with the other refugees, immigrants, you know, 243 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,800 being treated the same way. And is is the distinction that 244 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,160 makes you a refugee rather than an exile, a lack of choice? 245 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,360 I don't. I don't think I choose it. 246 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,680 Many other people choose it for me. 247 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,160 When you're a stranger in a country, what's your your worth 248 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,680 always depends on what the new people that you meet think about 249 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,960 you. I think they give you this brand 250 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,480 and I think it's not for me, it's for them rather, because 251 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,200 feeling like Europe is still safe haven makes them feel 252 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,200 safer, making me an exile. That narrative makes them feel 253 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,600 like, oh, we're still enjoying, you know, the perks of 254 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,680 civilization, so to speak. If this is happening to us all 255 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,800 or most places, is there such a thing as a safe haven? 256 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:38,280 Oh no. When fascism was around for the 257 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,480 first round, there was America not only as a place to escape, 258 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,600 but also as an idea. Land of the free. 259 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,800 Now we don't have that quote UN quote America. 260 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,920 So maybe this should tell us that we are now finally 261 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,320 protecting our homes from political evil. 262 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,640 There is nowhere to go, but there is something to go to and 263 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,880 that is people. And this is what I learned while 264 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,080 writing Nation of Strangers. I always thought that I could 265 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,840 survive on my own. And you know, I should be strong 266 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,560 enough to survive on my own. That's what I've been told as 267 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,080 well. And while writing Nation of 268 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,080 Strangers, I learned that you can only survive through others. 269 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,840 And this gives you a insight, a certain insight that makes a 270 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,960 political solution more grounded. 271 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,400 Because then you can, you know, ground your political solution, 272 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:39,880 which is democracy in the faith of people in togetherness, in 273 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,360 connecting to other strangers. Because in the end, home is 274 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,600 nothing today but other people. And if you feel this, you can 275 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,560 act with the urgency to connect when connecting to other people. 276 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:59,840 You can act with the faith and the need so that your politics 277 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,079 is not just an ideology but also a Survival kit. 278 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,400 I mean, can you give me an example from your own life? 279 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,280 I mean, I suppose what you're saying is that the only safe 280 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,640 haven now is intellectual. It's in people's. 281 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,200 It's not intellectual. I'm talking about real life. 282 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,200 You know, I learned how to be a stranger, how to survive while 283 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,240 staying humane from the most unfortunate of strangers, 284 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,640 homeless people, refugees in dire situations. 285 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,760 They were the most kind people and they, you know, they told me 286 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,720 how to stay. They, they showed me how to stay 287 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,640 humane in these, in this precarious situation, so to 288 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,520 speak. How I think it's a, most of it 289 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:52,560 is facing the reality head on. And I'm not talking about 290 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,880 surviving like a homeless when I say this or surviving like a 291 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,200 refugee. I think what we need today in 292 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,400 the world morally and politically is facing the 293 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,520 reality head on. We don't do it. 294 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,200 We think that we do it. We talk about reality, but we 295 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,520 don't really accept the reality yet. 296 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,800 And the reality is really, really problem, you know, 297 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,480 problematic. Of course, we're losing 298 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,560 democracy. We're losing the planet, our 299 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:24,400 ultimate home, and we don't have much hope about our future. 300 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,360 So if we really accept this reality, actually it should 301 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:30,400 humble us. And this is what I learned from 302 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,240 refugees. And in order to build your home, 303 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,280 new home, new political, moral home, you have to accept that 304 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,160 there is no going back home. Interestingly, in Davos, 305 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,960 Canadian Prime Minister said that there is no going back to 306 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,800 old order. He was telling what I was trying 307 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,440 to tell. Actually, there is no going 308 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,880 back, not for strangers, not going home in not actual terms, 309 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,720 but also for the world to go back to old homes or old 310 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,600 understandings or ways. So we have to, you know, assess 311 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,000 that reality truthfully. And that assessment should make 312 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,840 us humble. Should have been a lot of people 313 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,760 in in these transitioning countries, countries that are 314 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,600 not in authoritarianism yet, but where democracy is weakening. 315 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,200 They don't want to catastrophize, you know, they 316 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,040 don't want to say everything is gone and I'm going to hell in a 317 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,880 handcart and my life is over and the security that I've known and 318 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,920 my family have known for generations is is gone. 319 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,320 They want to believe that there is a natural pendulum, that it 320 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,360 will come back. Things will get better. 321 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,320 We won't go over the Cliff edge and and in small periods of time 322 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,800 we tend not to go over Cliff edges. 323 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,920 You know 10 things tend to get steadily worse over time. 324 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,400 Yeah, are. You saying they need to wake up? 325 00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:01,200 You know that that political Cassandra role, you know, I, I 326 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,920 kind of assumed that role with how to lose the country. 327 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,920 National strangers is different and I am different now. 328 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,920 And I'm telling people, yes, it might be worse than this. 329 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,720 It probably will be worse than this, but let's sit in this 330 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:21,480 uncertainty and let's really, truly connect to each other so 331 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,480 that we can really this time change everything and we can 332 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,160 rebuild a political moral home together again. 333 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:35,720 The steady, the problem is there is this abstract trust in 334 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,960 institutions and I'm now talking about politics, real politics, 335 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,360 so to speak. The abstract institute, you 336 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:47,320 know, a trust in institutions is I think dragging the ACT for 337 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,120 many people. We think that the court will, 338 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,440 you know, save us from this. We think that there will be AI 339 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,600 don't know somebody will do something in the end. 340 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,920 No, it's us. And when I talk about humility, 341 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,360 I mean this. There is nothing. 342 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,160 There is US. Only you know, it's me and you. 343 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,280 That's it. And this should be enough. 344 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,080 But in order to believe that this is enough, we have to 345 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,800 believe in each other. So, so in terms of this, this 346 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,920 book, I mean, you've been in your terms of refugee for 10 347 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,480 years nearly. How has your identity changed 348 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,000 over that period? My identity I have, you know, I 349 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,880 was somebody in Turkey and then overnight almost I became 350 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,120 nobody. That is a very humbling 351 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,680 educating experience because you then understand that home is not 352 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,440 the place you remember, but where you are remembered. 353 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,600 Nobody remembers you around you. So that is a very humbling 354 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,280 experience. And then you ask yourself truly, 355 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,000 not like in immigration offices, but you truly ask yourself, who 356 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,440 am I now? And then it takes a lot of time 357 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:03,080 to come to peace with the reality that home can only be 358 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,800 here. And now there's, you know, you 359 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,520 cannot go back. The home you long for is no 360 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,200 longer there. One, and for Syrians, for 361 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,200 Iraqis, for Sudanese, probably it's like this. 362 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,800 And the second thing is the long, the thing you long for is 363 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,720 in the past. It's gone, so it takes a lot of 364 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:29,520 time to come to here and now. And I think I managed to do that 365 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,360 through writing this book. That's why I'm I feel like a 366 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,360 different person now and I truly, truly believe that my 367 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,480 home is made of people. I'm living in Berlin and I keep 368 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,000 saying people, oh, I like Berlin, it's lovely Berlin. 369 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,920 And then last Christmas, but my friends were gone and there was 370 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,320 no more Berlin so and I thought, yeah of. 371 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,280 Course. So it stopped being home, Yeah. 372 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:58,160 And that's why, you know, people will have to learn to make 373 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,640 people their home. And once people become home, you 374 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,520 cannot let them go. You have to forgive them. 375 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:05,960 You can't. You have to be generous. 376 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,760 You have to be loving and so on. These words, love, generosity, 377 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:16,040 humility, kindness, compassion. These words are funny things 378 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,040 when you try to put them in political theory like I try. 379 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,200 To they don't fit. They just, they disappear. 380 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,000 But actually those are the words that we depend on when things 381 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,760 really go horribly wrong, when we have to survive. 382 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,640 These are the words that you live on. 383 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,440 So my identity became more humane. 384 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,440 I think I now know how to live on the kindness of others, which 385 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,880 is a very hard thing for a person with a pride. 386 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,560 But we will have to get rid of that pride soon, all of us, when 387 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,880 we have to survive, and then we will have to humble ourselves to 388 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,200 accept the kindness of others. Do do you think that there is 389 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:09,400 any politics which can embrace and take into account 390 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,480 relationships, love, family, trust? 391 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,160 You know, the, the, it's interesting if you think about 392 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,360 politics in, in, you know, in the West for the last 20 or 30 393 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,560 years, occasionally politicians have tried to grasp this idea 394 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,480 of, well-being, you know, of the quality of life, that growth 395 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,920 isn't just about economics. But nobody's really been able to 396 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,400 define it properly and, and, and knit it into a political 397 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:38,840 framework. Yeah. 398 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,160 Do you think it's possible? Well, I tried to do that in 399 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,400 together the previous book and with Nation of Strangers as 400 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:50,680 well, because people do not want to see that. 401 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,800 Fascism today, the new form of fascism, has an emotional 402 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,880 machine. It's like a electric seesaw. 403 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:05,600 It cuts people, it cuts the cuts all ties that makes you belong 404 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,720 to a place. And so we have to create a 405 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,520 counter machine, so to speak, or we have to deconstruct this 406 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,800 machine in order to be able to fight it politically. 407 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,160 People are exhausted, Krishna, more than anything else. 408 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,240 They're confused and exhausted. And this exhaustion has a 409 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,600 political consequence. It's not like, you know, 410 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,200 individual depression or like being bored or being, you know, 411 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,400 fed up with news. No, it's more than that. 412 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,640 What's happening around the world right now or what's 413 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,320 happening in our countries hit people very deeply and not 414 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,760 really, you know, every politician cares about that, or 415 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,920 intellectuals either. We found it. 416 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,400 We find it to, you know, many people, I, I don't, but many 417 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,720 people find it to, I don't know they, they, they cannot bring 418 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,960 themselves down to that idea that the people are suffering. 419 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,800 Yes, you see, how do how do you persuade people who who don't 420 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,320 instinctively or naturally or obviously feel that they have a 421 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,400 a link or a relationship with another group of people in their 422 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,480 country that they do, you know, won't the haves always feel 423 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,520 disconnected from the have nots? Class issue. 424 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,000 Yes, exactly I. Mean not not just class, but 425 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,280 immigrants, refugees, political division. 426 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,440 You know, there are always people who will feel secure in 427 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,520 their own group, who feel that they don't have anything in 428 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,480 common with the strangers. Yeah. 429 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,440 I mean, what you're saying is we should all find the threads. 430 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,360 The thread is simple, but it takes a little bit courage to 431 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:04,800 realize that especially refugees and the poor refugees, let's say 432 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:11,200 underprivileged refugees, they are seen as people that are 433 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,400 asking for help. And there's this perception 434 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,000 about strangers in general. Oh, these people came to our 435 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,560 country, so we need to help them out. 436 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,680 It's exactly the opposite. I mean, like, we've got here to 437 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,080 help you. We know how you're going to lose 438 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,600 your country. So let us tell you what's going 439 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,560 to happen and at least what you should not do. 440 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:31,960 What do you think is going to happen here? 441 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,240 If we're going to lose our country, how will that happen? 442 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,920 It's not Losing your country is not like somebody invading it. 443 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,120 Well, that now with Trump, that's also possible, obviously 444 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,160 for Greenlanders at least. But it. 445 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,760 I mean, a lot of Americans do feel that they've sort of been 446 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,760 invaded, that they've lost their country. 447 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,000 Violence, I'm sure people in Minnesota, Minnesota, 448 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,960 Minneapolis, they feel like they are under attack in their own 449 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,080 homes in their own country. And that is I always see 450 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,000 Minneapolis like a micro nation of strangers because what they 451 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,920 are doing there, people are dead. 452 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,160 They ousted eyes to begin with, but throughout that time there 453 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,240 was it was horrible. The violence was horrible, 454 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,280 terrifying, but what they did, they supported each other, they 455 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,400 held onto each other, and they didn't let it go. 456 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,800 They were strangers to each other and they formed a nation 457 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,200 of strangers. Minneapolis is a very good 458 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,640 preview of of future, I think. And you don't have to leave your 459 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,480 home to feel homeless. When you feel threatened, when 460 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,480 your regime, your government tells you that you do not count 461 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,520 as normal citizen, I treat you as enemy. 462 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:51,480 That's when you lose your home. But Minneapolis, I'm sure many 463 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,440 people suffer. Of course, many people suffer. 464 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,520 But then I'm pretty sure they also lived best days of their 465 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,080 lives as well because they defended their dignity together. 466 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,120 And you ask me, you know, what is home or who are you? 467 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,880 Now? I came to understand that home 468 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,480 is other people. And it's it you build it by 469 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,760 holding each other when your hands are full. 470 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,080 So what's happening in Minneapolis is important. 471 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,360 It happened in several other places in the world. 472 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,160 But when it happens in the United States, of course, we 473 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,880 watch all together. So yeah, that's a preview to the 474 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,080 future, I think. What's your not? 475 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,840 In terms of like everybody, you know, every city is going to be 476 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,280 attacked, but we will have to hold on to each other, which 477 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,760 with such conviction, so to speak. 478 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,360 If if we are losing ourselves and our home and our country in 479 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,800 Britain, how, how do you think it plays out? 480 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:54,720 How do you think it happens? Starmer called this country 481 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,880 Island of Strangers. I think it starts there when, 482 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,960 you know, if everybody could say that we are all strangers and we 483 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,320 are proud strangers, who are you? 484 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,080 I think that would make everyone feel like, yeah, we're at home 485 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,480 here. Those who makes us feel like 486 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,160 strangers, they are not at home with humanity and with 487 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,760 themselves. Of course, far right Nigel 488 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,600 Farage and his lives and so on. They are becoming stronger and 489 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,200 stronger. I remember Nigel Farage in 2016, 490 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,560 nobody was taking him seriously and he has become the most 491 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,960 important political figure in this most impactful figure in 492 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,720 this country, unfortunately. So yeah, I think people lost 493 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,440 faith in democracy in general, but it's not their mistake. 494 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,200 Democracy did not fulfill its promise. 495 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,120 That's why these people are becoming so powerful. 496 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,960 Democracy's fundamental promise was equality. 497 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,080 But our reality, which is hardcore cut truth, capitalism 498 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,040 tells us that there is no equality, There will be not 499 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:15,240 equality. So those two things clash and I 500 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,240 think we didn't support democracy enough against the 501 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,960 other promise. But the the pessimistic part of 502 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,520 what you're saying is also that you're, you're not, you don't 503 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,160 seem to believe that there is a political solution. 504 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,320 You know that democracy can be rescued by good politics and 505 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,320 good politician. Oh, it's not going to be rescued 506 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,800 with the existing tools for sure. 507 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:36,640 Why not? Why not? 508 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,520 Why not? Because, as I told you, 509 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,000 democracy in its current state is a theatrics of itself, and 510 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,080 everybody knows that. Nobody's stupid. 511 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,440 Everybody knows that if a system is constantly telling them, you 512 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,280 know, you have equal rights, you have equal voting rights and so 513 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,400 on. But meanwhile, the bigger and 514 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,120 the deeper reality is exactly the opposite of that. 515 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,680 Of course, people would go to those leader who say that I am 516 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,480 with you, I'm going to save you from this oppressive elite, of 517 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,400 course, and we have to understand them as well. 518 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,720 We don't have to accept, but we have to understand this is 519 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,080 politics. It's, it's not going to be easy. 520 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:21,560 But it took from 1980, how many decades, 66 decades? 521 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,320 It took six decades to ruin democracy. 522 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,880 Trump, Nigel Farage, Modi, Erdogan, these people put in, 523 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,880 they didn't do this. They are the outcome of a system 524 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,040 that really killed the fundamental promise of 525 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,000 democracy. So yes, unfortunately, it will 526 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,840 take a few decades to build this up. 527 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,040 So we have to redefine democracy. 528 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,200 We have to talk about real democracy. 529 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,800 We have to talk about the economic system we're living in, 530 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,480 the real equality. And unless a politician truly 531 00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:02,040 promises this, you know that true equality and dignity, I 532 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,040 think it has no chance. And people, I think, waiting for 533 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,360 that courage from politicians. So, so finally, can you give us 534 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,520 some tips then in terms of what you've learned over 10 years? 535 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,240 I mean, you say what you've learned is that home is, is is 536 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,320 people, you're people. That's really, really hard for a 537 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,920 lot of people. It is forming relationships 538 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,560 isn't easy. You know, forming bonds isn't 539 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,280 easy for a lot of people. But what have you learned about 540 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,920 how you do this? You, you, you don't. 541 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,440 If you don't have to learn this, you don't learn this. 542 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,600 I had to learn it. That's why I know now. 543 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:46,880 And I didn't like learning this either because it's either the 544 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,040 dominant morality we're living in, or it's my upbringing. 545 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,560 I was always supposed to be very strong, very brave, 546 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,560 self-sustaining and so on. And I think it's probably 547 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,280 dominant morality because it always tells us like, you know, 548 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,200 the self is important. We have to take care of 549 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,320 ourselves, we have to be powerful individuals and so on. 550 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,360 No, it's bullshit. We can only take care of each 551 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,000 other because being human is such a difficult thing, 552 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,280 especially in these times. So carrying the burden of the 553 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,760 self, carrying the burden of being human is so difficult. 554 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,000 You have to have other people too. 555 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:33,159 And you don't have to learn this unless you have to survive 556 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:37,199 really, as a stranger. But I think many, many more 557 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:38,760 people will have to experience this. 558 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,960 I'm talking about these dark stuff. 559 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,199 And then you're telling that I'm a no, actually a nation of 560 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:52,520 strangers is good news. It's like, am I able? 561 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,120 Am I allowed to say these things? 562 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,040 I don't know. We are in the damn same shit 563 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,560 together. Let's survive together. 564 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,240 When I talk about humility, when I talk about truthfulness in 565 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,480 assessing the reality, this is what I mean. 566 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,120 We are in the same visa line together, and we're trying to 567 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,920 get to the other side, to the more humane side. 568 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,440 Humane times. And those visa lines, they look 569 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,160 horrible from outside. Of course, it's miserable. 570 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,360 Miserables of the world coming together, waiting in visa lines. 571 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,200 I've been through that a lot. But there is amazing poetry 572 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,880 there as well, the poetry of being human, because there's a 573 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,720 lot of humor. There's a lot of solidarity, 574 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,080 random solidarity with strangers. 575 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,920 And you learn there that there is a language of strangers, 576 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,360 There is a way of being there, and there is a way to stay 577 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:54,680 humane despite all the misery. And that exact same, you know, 578 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,840 language will be used by us soon because we will have to drop the 579 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,280 ACT. We are still dragging the ACT 580 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,600 that everything will be back to normal soon. 581 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,240 Could you tell me a bit more about the language of strangers? 582 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,000 I mean, this is something I guess I've seen as well, amongst 583 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,640 refugees particularly. Yeah, humour and the way people 584 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,240 get on and force themselves to get on in in the most dire 585 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:21,640 situations. Yeah. 586 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,600 Tell me a little bit more About what? 587 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,600 You've but they don't get on on their own. 588 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,640 That's important. They get on together. 589 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,960 It's like falling together. Actually. 590 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,320 We're falling together and beholding to each other on to 591 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,840 each other. And yeah, there's a lot of 592 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,840 gallows humor to start with. And there's always certain 593 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,760 directness, which might come across as bluntness to other 594 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,160 people or impolite. But, you know, nobody in these 595 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,000 studios asked me about my status, you know, residency 596 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,200 status. When I meet a stranger. 597 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,720 This is the first question. What's your status like? 598 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,040 Are you on permanent or temporary? 599 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,800 Did you apply for citizenship? These are real things and it's 600 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,600 lovely. It it is a different kind of 601 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,440 kindness. It's a different kind of 602 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,440 generosity. It's harsh, but it's nice. 603 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,200 And also I think we help each other by gallows humor. 604 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,200 That's that's happening a lot. I have a, one of the characters 605 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,880 in the book, not characters. Ayotte is a real person. 606 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,440 Another stranger from Syria. Whenever I call him, he's, he's 607 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,680 having really, really, really difficult life at the moment. 608 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,320 But, you know, he's the one who can cheer me because he knows 609 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,960 what being really bad means. So he always asks, like I was, 610 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,520 So how are you going to commit suicide? 611 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,760 You don't do this to other people. 612 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,120 And many, many of us, by the way, and especially with Syrian 613 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:52,840 refugees, they tell the same story. 614 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,560 We tell our stories to each other in real, in a real way, 615 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,320 you know, with all the details and so on, with laughter, a lot 616 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,480 of laughter. And then I heard this a lot of 617 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,480 times. But of course I don't tell this 618 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,240 to Germans, but of course I don't tell this to British. 619 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,840 Why? Because they would be 620 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,680 traumatized. So yeah, it's, I think assessing 621 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:21,320 reality with humility, humor, and a profound kind of 622 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,800 generosity and kindness. And what is your status? 623 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,920 I won't tell you I'm in my intellectual dumb cell mode now. 624 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,480 Quran. Thank you very much. 625 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:34,440 Indeed. Thank you, Krishna. 626 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,000 Thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed that. 627 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,520 You can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News 628 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,520 YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.