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Society structures aren't 
designed to lift people out of 

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poverty, we're just managing it.
There is no poverty of 

3
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aspiration. 
There's a poverty of structure 

4
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to allow people to meet their 
aspiration. 

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Why did Epstein happen? 
Why did the Me Too movement 

6
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happen? 
It's all about not respecting 

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women. 
It's all about predatory 

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behaviour. 
It's all about misogyny. 

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It all comes back to all of 
these things that we need to fix

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in society. 
How did your mum end up killing 

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the man who had been exploiting 
her and abusing her? 

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00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,560
Hello and welcome to Ways to 
Change the World. 

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00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,480
I'm Krishnan Guru Murphy, and 
this is the podcast where we 

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00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:43,080
talk to extraordinary people 
about the big ideas in their 

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lives and the events that have 
helped shape them. 

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My guest today is someone whose 
life has been defined by 

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survival, resistance and the 
decision to turn private trauma 

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00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,400
into public purpose. 
She grew up in a home scarred by

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violence, was forced into 
marriage as a teenager, and then

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in early adulthood found herself
caring for her younger siblings 

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00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,280
while her mother served a prison
sentence for killing an abusive 

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partner. 
Her path into politics began 

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through social work and a long 
campaign to free her mother, a 

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campaign that taught her how 
power works and how to challenge

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it. 
Nash Shah is the author of 

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Honoured and has been the Labour
MP for Bradford W since 2015, 

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winning the seat after defeating
George Galloway. 

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She has held it through the 
various internal shifts of 

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Labour Party politics, while 
continuing to advocate on issues

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rooted in the experiences that 
shaped her own life. 

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Naz, Welcome. 
Thank you. 

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Congratulations on this book. 
I have to say it is absolutely 

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amazing, gripping. 
I think anyone who is interested

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in communities, patriarchy, 
grooming, all of the issues of 

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politics at the moment should 
read it because it's an amazing 

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thing that you've done and a 
life you've had. 

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Clearly, if you if you could 
change the world in any way in 

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one fell swoop, how would you 
change it? 

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00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,320
Oh, I thought about that and I I
just think it's education after 

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for me, you know, somebody who 
left school at 12, I didn't have

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education and I know the value 
of education and I know that, 

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00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,200
you know, when I visited out in 
with charities in places where 

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there is an education, education
literally changes the world. 

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And if we got that right, we 
would change the outcomes for 

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the world. 
That's what I feel. 

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I genuinely believe we should be
educating. 

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00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,560
And I've been to places where 
kids just don't get that access.

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They don't get, I mean, I, I, 
you know, if I could go back 

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00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,560
and, or even in my future life, 
I'd love to go back to 

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university. 
I'd love to just study and 

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learn. 
And because it makes such a 

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difference to you as a human 
being. 

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00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,800
Now you kind of need to unpack 
the people, I suppose, why you 

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00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,960
left school at 12. 
You were sent off to Pakistan 

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really for your own protection. 
So I think we need to rewind 

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00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,640
before that, don't we, to your 
early childhood and the kind of 

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00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:05,960
childhood you had. 
I mean, your your parents were 

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00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,040
Pakistani immigrants from 
Kashmir. 

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00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,080
Your dad had been brought up 
here, but your mum came pretty 

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00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,760
much as a as a bride. 
What? 

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00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,760
What do you remember of early 
life? 

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00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,800
My first memories are literally 
of my father beating my mum and 

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I love my dad, love my mom, and 
I talk about it in the book that

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one of the chapters is Brown 
Girl in the Ring. 

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00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,200
So my love of dancing was with 
my dad because he used to make 

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00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,960
me dance to the Bony M song song
Brown Girl in the Ring. 

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00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,640
And so I had. 
But my first absolute vivid 

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00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:47,520
memory is of him by her platform
in her hair and literally her 

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00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,760
looking at me saying go and get 
somebody to stop him to from 

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00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,880
beating her. 
And I ran up the stairs. 

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00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,800
We lived in a back-to-back in 
Anvil St. in in Bradford to the 

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street that's no longer there 
went up another set set of 

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00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,800
stairs called the neighbors and 
the neighbors came to stop him 

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00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,760
from beating her. 
That's my first memory. 

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00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,640
So I've got, you know, I've got 
different memories, but that was

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00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,360
the most that was the very first
one that I couldn't always 

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00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,920
recall in Technicolor how it was
how the room was set up, how her

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00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,560
eyes, the the eyes of my mother.
You know, there's in throughout 

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00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,200
the book, I talk about moments 
where my mother's eyes just 

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00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,440
looked out to me just as kind of
like saved me. 

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00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,440
And I was only six years old. 
And and that was around the time

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00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,560
he abandoned you. 
Yep, that was just before, just 

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00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,800
just shortly before he left us 
and he left us for the 

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00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,400
neighbour's 16 year old 
daughter. 

85
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,520
My mum was pregnant with my 
youngest sister Fazia, and I was

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00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,640
six years old. 
My brother was three years old 

87
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,040
and we. 
But you know how old? 

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00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,480
Was he? 
He was, he was, I think he was 

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00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,640
32 because he was born in 52. 
So yeah. 

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00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,040
And. 
He ran off with a 16 year old. 

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00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:02,680
Girl neighbour's daughter. 
And he, when he left us, he 

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00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,720
bought shame on the because he 
took somebody else's daughter 

93
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,040
and it brought shame on that 
family. 

94
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,560
And yet my mum carried the shame
on our side. 

95
00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,320
It wasn't never, it's never in 
patriarchy. 

96
00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,560
It's always the man that you 
know, carries the burden of 

97
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,360
honour or, or basks in Ora 
rather. 

98
00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,000
Yes, I mean shame and honour is 
obviously the theme. 

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00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,880
I mean the type of the book is, 
is honoured and you explore, you

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00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:30,320
know, the demands of honour on 
on families, on Pakistani 

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00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,400
families. 
But you describe also in there 

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00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:41,800
that the shame was was was not 
that he had run away with a 16 

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00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,960
year old girl, it was that he 
had disrespected her father. 

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00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,560
Yes, it was because he'd taken 
somebody else's. 

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00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:56,080
Is that somebody else's honour? 
Because girls are girls have the

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00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,080
responsibility of maintaining 
honour, You know, and how I 

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00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,800
describe it to the mainstream 
viewer or reader is literally 

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00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,120
down Downton Abbey. 
It's like the latest film. 

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00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,760
You see the woman who's been 
divorced and she's not allowed 

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00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,800
to be around the king and she's 
shunned from high society 

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00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,240
because she's been bought. 
She's bought dishonour, which by

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00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,480
definition says that the honour 
is her burden to carry, to 

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00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,840
maintain honour. 
But if she brings shame, she's, 

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00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,240
you know, she's excommunicated, 
so to speak. 

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00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,040
And that's the same thing. 
It's like my my father. 

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00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:29,440
It doesn't matter what the man 
does. 

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00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,520
It's always the woman that bears
the shame and she brings the 

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00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,880
shame or she executes it, 
behaves in a way which brings a 

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00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,040
dishonour. 
How? 

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00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,360
How would you describe the 
Bradford of your childhood? 

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00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,200
You know, I mean, if, if you're 
not there, if you're not 

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00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,600
familiar with a place like 
Bradford, it's very, very hard 

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00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,040
to understand, you know, 
because, because even now it's 

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00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,120
a, it's a majority immigrant 
population in terms of origin, 

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00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,520
isn't it? 
My constituency is majority 

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00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,640
Muslim, 60%, nearly 60% of the 
my constituency and the largest.

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00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,600
You know that Muslim majority is
largely associated with Zaat 

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00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,160
Kashmir of Pakistani heritage. 
Yeah. 

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00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,960
And I should say by Kashmir you 
you mean the bit of the bit of 

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00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,160
Kashmir that is part of 
Pakistan, which is where where 

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00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,680
huge numbers of people in 
Bradford come. 

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00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,640
From. 
But what, what kind of, I 

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00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,120
suppose when I say what kind of 
place was it? 

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00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,720
I'm, I'm getting at, you know, 
is it, is it a little Pakistan? 

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00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,640
It has been described as such. 
It has been described as, you 

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00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,720
know, a lot of people in the in 
the Asian media often refer it 

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00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,200
to as mini Pakistan. 
That yes, they are. 

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00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,960
How? 
Pakistani and how British is it?

139
00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,800
I think it's a mixture of all 
things. 

140
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,800
I think, you know, the, the, the
Bradford in which I grew up in, 

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00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,640
you know, I, I don't remember 
the only memories that I have of

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00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,280
growing up is very much about 
what my experience was, which 

143
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,320
was, you know, which was 
unusual. 

144
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,680
It's a very, you know, what 
happened to my mother, what 

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00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,000
happened to me, you know, being 
shipped off to my granddad's 

146
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,120
house because my dad, my father 
has had bought shame on another 

147
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,000
family and then being shipped 
off with a black bin liner, all 

148
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,400
the things in the back bin 
liner. 

149
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,520
That was the start of my life 
from a very early, early stage, 

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00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,400
right from the age of 6. 
So I don't remember the wider 

151
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,560
Bradford. 
I mean, I've got some memories 

152
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,960
of, you know, when my mum was 
trying to try on a bus, trying 

153
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,640
to get to my granddad's house 
and the bus driver was amazing. 

154
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,640
He came out of the bus and he 
helped her because she 

155
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,760
completely broke down, because 
she'd lost her bearings, because

156
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,679
she didn't speak English and she
wanted to. 

157
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,600
She knew which bus stop to get 
out of that, but she didn't know

158
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,440
which way to go. 
And it was only one right And 

159
00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,720
right again to get to Kirkham 
Rd. 

160
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,000
But then at that time, you know,
it was really, really, it was an

161
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,440
alien place for her. 
It was not something she was 

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00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,960
familiar with, didn't understand
the language, didn't know how to

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00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,800
use transport, etcetera. 
And then you got somebody who 

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00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:57,800
helped her. 
You know, when I was at primary 

165
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,400
school in Hollywood Lane, I had 
an amazing, he's an amazing 

166
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,520
teacher who first time took me 
to the seaside, think it was 

167
00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,480
Scarborough that she took me to.
Mrs. Brassley. 

168
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,280
I went to her house, you know, I
discovered gooseberries, I'd 

169
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,200
discovered a garden. 
Those were new things to me. 

170
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,520
So my my experience of Bradford 
and my understanding in them 

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00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,200
days was very different to what 
it became throughout my 

172
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,480
campaign. 
I mean, as you read the book, 

173
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,800
you, you kind of realized that 
almost every significant male in

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00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,720
your life let you down 
horrifically. 

175
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,080
I mean, not, not just to do 
casually. 

176
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,320
So your, your, your father that 
abandons you. 

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00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,680
You go off to your grandparents,
but that doesn't last. 

178
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,720
Either No, no, because my mum 
really wanted. 

179
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,560
So my mum wanted to give us, it 
was a 1980s, early 80's, the 

180
00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:51,080
idea of owning your own home 
wanted that security didn't want

181
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,280
us to be kicked out. 
So mum was really, really trying

182
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,000
to give us secure a house. 
Yeah, back to Britain. 

183
00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,040
I want a house that belongs to 
us. 

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00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,000
So she wanted to, she wanted to 
sell her jewellery, the wedding 

185
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,560
jewellery to pay the deposit. 
She didn't qualify for a 

186
00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:06,040
mortgage. 
She would do lots of 

187
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,760
volunteering work, which gave 
her enough money, like vouchers,

188
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,560
looking after disabled children 
that didn't impact her benefits.

189
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,000
But she couldn't get a mortgage.
And because she couldn't get a 

190
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,240
mortgage, she went to my 
uncle's. 

191
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,920
My uncle said no. 
And, you know, so they let her 

192
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,520
down. 
And then because she was that, 

193
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,760
you know, she was a single 
parent, her husband had left 

194
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,840
her. 
She was the one that was, you 

195
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,880
know, she was trying to carve 
her identity in the community at

196
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,200
the same time, but without a 
husband. 

197
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,400
It wasn't she didn't have, is it
or she didn't have honour. 

198
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,400
And then when I was growing up, 
I couldn't have, you know, a 

199
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,760
Christian. 
That picture on that, that book 

200
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,880
is my last school picture. 
But the reason it's so 

201
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,320
significant for me was because 
that was the time when I had a 

202
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,520
fringe. 
I had to beg my mum to get a 

203
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,880
fringe because I couldn't do 
anything because I didn't have a

204
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,320
father, because I was, you know,
I was dishonoured. 

205
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,000
I'd be because if you had a 
father you had much more honour 

206
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,040
and every time I wanted to do 
something like, no, you can't do

207
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:03,360
that because you haven't got a 
father. 

208
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:04,920
So people were not compassionate
towards. 

209
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,200
Yeah, no, because it wasn't as 
if they were horrible. 

210
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,040
Yeah, if it was, if I was, if I 
was an orphan, you get lots of 

211
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,560
compassion because, you know, 
there's, there's lots of 

212
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:16,200
compassion towards orphans. 
But somehow it was like I'd 

213
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,080
bought this on because I don't 
have a father. 

214
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,160
So that idea of, you know, 
compassion, it would just wasn't

215
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,080
there. 
It was judgement. 

216
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,880
So she ended up trusting A, a 
relative of A. 

217
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:32,520
Neighbor. 
To get this house in his name? 

218
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,560
Yep. 
Explain what happened. 

219
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:40,280
So mum went to her, mum went to 
her brothers, they said no, went

220
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,920
to father-in-law, granddad. 
He said I'll buy it, we can buy 

221
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,040
it. 
But then you know, a few years 

222
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,800
time you can move out. 
So she was going to be back in 

223
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,680
the same situation. 
So she then the neighbors said 

224
00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:51,640
look, we've got a nephew, he can
do it for you. 

225
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,040
You know, you can get it as a 
businessman. 

226
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,840
What we didn't realise and what 
she didn't know was that 

227
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,480
businessman was a drug 
trafficker. 

228
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,400
He went to prison. 
He, you know, the minute he took

229
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,240
her to the house. 
So he bought this house on her 

230
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,400
name, 251 Legren Blaine. 
The first time he raped her was 

231
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,280
when he took her to the house. 
So now. 

232
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,160
His quid pro quo for helping her
with the house was that she 

233
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,920
would become his. 
Well, it was sexual 

234
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,800
exploitation. 
It was a 23 year old with three 

235
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,320
children, 1A baby, a set now 6-7
year old. 

236
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,400
You know and doesn't know the 
language is in somewhere, 

237
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,760
doesn't have the support of the 
community, is very destitute, 

238
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,040
very desperate and along comes a
guy you know brings fruit for 

239
00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,480
the kids. 
Me and my brother both had TB 

240
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,520
and we lived in abject poverty. 
We moved from pillar to post. 

241
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,720
We had. 
Tuberculosis because you were 

242
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,800
living in such. 
We were living in, Yeah, it was 

243
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:41,760
enjoyable. 
Yeah, it was. 

244
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,320
Me and my brother both had TB. 
Which is quite usually, you 

245
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,120
know, in the 80s. 
Yeah, even I remember, you know,

246
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,840
the jab that they give you with 
us, with lots of them pins 

247
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,960
around it, because the family 
had to be immunized and had to 

248
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,480
have this jab. 
And even that was shameful 

249
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,640
because you bought TB, you know,
you bought tuberculosis, and it 

250
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,960
was, umm, you know, we've all 
had to get these jabs. 

251
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,080
The whole family had to get 
them. 

252
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,520
The extended family had to get 
them and we with the houses we 

253
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,200
lived in, we didn't have a 
toilet inside. 

254
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,240
We only stayed in one room 
because we couldn't afford to 

255
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,200
heat the upstairs. 
Legroom's Lane was the 1st house

256
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,120
where we used a bedroom since 
moving because and even then we 

257
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,400
only used one bedroom. 
We had two double beds, you 

258
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,240
know, me and my, my sister on 
one bed, my mother and my 

259
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,080
brother on the other bed, the 
smallest bedroom in the house 

260
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,840
because we couldn't afford to 
heat the rest of it. 

261
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,200
But when we were before we had 
Legroom's Lane, we didn't even, 

262
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,960
you know, we had a small kitchen
which had a cooker and it had a,

263
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,440
a bath in bathtub in there, but 
the toilet was outside. 

264
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,040
So it was like, you know, the 
poverty that we'd experienced. 

265
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,640
But again, when you're living in
poverty, you don't know that 

266
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,040
you're living in poverty unless 
until you come out of poverty. 

267
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,040
I mean you, you, you say in that
section. 

268
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,160
In all kinds of ways, 
contemporary society is 

269
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,440
structured to sustain poverty. 
Too many politicians still don't

270
00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,000
understand. 
Just explain that for me. 

271
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,840
I think for me society is 
structured to keep the pert 

272
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,600
though the working class persons
you know back bent. 

273
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,520
It doesn't. 
It's not structured. 

274
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,440
The the structures do not exist 
to allow people to realise or to

275
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,680
to live their ambition. 
I had a conversation with a 

276
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,000
friend of mine yesterday and was
like there is no poverty of 

277
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,360
aspiration. 
Is there a poverty aspiration? 

278
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,000
I don't think there is a poverty
of aspiration. 

279
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,760
I think there's a poverty of 
structure to allow people to 

280
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,560
meet their aspiration. 
And I don't think vital or, you 

281
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,320
know, I don't think we get it 
enough. 

282
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,880
And the reason I don't think we 
get it enough, we'd sit, we'd 

283
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,520
sit in Westminster. 
We think, OK, we, we, it's not 

284
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,240
that the intention isn't there. 
The intention is brilliant, You 

285
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,240
know, giving somebody free 
childcare so that they can go 

286
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,360
into into a job, you know, for 
university, paying for 

287
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,880
education, you know, the idea of
free school meals. 

288
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,280
Let's just go back to that 
debate when I was in opposition 

289
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,920
that we could not innovate. 
Marcus Rashford having to handle

290
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,880
leader campaign nationally 
around free school meals. 

291
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,880
When a kid goes to school, they 
haven't had breakfast because 

292
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,320
they're living in poverty. 
They're not going to absorb the 

293
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,760
information. 
They're not going to get that 

294
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,640
education that the that a kid 
who's had breakfast will have. 

295
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,880
That's the structural 
inequalities. 

296
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,640
So you're set up, you're already
a year behind when we had show 

297
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,800
starts. 
That really, really shortened 

298
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,880
the gap between expectations or,
or outcomes. 

299
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,520
If you like, equality isn't 
about having, you know, the same

300
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,640
outcomes. 
It's about having the 

301
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,880
opportunity to be the best that 
you can be. 

302
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,720
Do we have them opportunities? 
Did the NASA was 12 years old 

303
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,600
have those opportunities? 
No, she didn't. 

304
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,600
Do kids in my constituency have 
those opportunities? 

305
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,640
You know when you can't even 
feed, when the poverty is that 

306
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,960
bad, But your parents, you don't
even have, your parents are 

307
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,800
having to have insecure jobs. 
Society has has really, when I 

308
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,840
speak to my constituents, mum 
and dad don't even get time to 

309
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,560
sit together to eat because 
you're working different hours 

310
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,000
and you're managing your homes. 
Even the bedroom tax that came 

311
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,280
in, it impacted so many people, 
you know, and it's trying to 

312
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,680
understand what that poverty 
does to a person. 

313
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,680
Your life chances are limited, 
your opportunities are limited, 

314
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,240
your health chances are limited.
You know, we know now from the 

315
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,720
darted of you when you went back
in, when I was working in the 

316
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,240
NHS, you the the expectations of
a person in inner city Bradford 

317
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,160
or inner city or another city 
for life expectation is shorter.

318
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,560
You've got and the quality of 
life is shorter for people in my

319
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,280
constituency. 
You've got health inequalities. 

320
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,280
You've got high chance of COPD, 
high chance of cancer, high 

321
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,800
chance of stroke, high chance of
heart disease, right. 

322
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,720
Why? 
Because the structures aren't 

323
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,400
there to give you equality from 
day dot from when you're growing

324
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,640
up. 
And those life chances start 

325
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,040
when you're younger, start from 
the womb in how embarrassing is 

326
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,560
it? 
How, how shameful is it that in 

327
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,480
my NHS in Bradford, in the 
maternity unit in behind the 

328
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,200
doors, there are, there are 
actually, you know, they've had 

329
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,920
posters on to say if you wanted 
asking for a food pack, to be 

330
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,680
able to ask whether you wanted a
cold food bank pack or a warm 

331
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,839
one. 
And the cold one, the one for 

332
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,200
cold is that you could only make
the warm food with a kettle 

333
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,240
because you couldn't afford gas.
How, how is that OK? 

334
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:17,760
Do you see where I'm coming 
from? 

335
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,240
That's where I say society 
structures aren't designed to 

336
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,560
lift people out of poverty. 
We're just managing it and we're

337
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,160
not. 
I think so much more needs to be

338
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,320
done. 
I, I, I do feel strongly about 

339
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,000
it because I know how it's 
impacted my health. 

340
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,280
You know, I know how it's 
impacted my brother's health. 

341
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,480
You know, I, I, I see the, my 
children, the difference between

342
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,600
my children and the experience 
that I had, you know, it's 

343
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,160
massive. 
It's huge. 

344
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,080
So, so come back to your own 
story. 

345
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,400
So your, your mother is now 
you've got a home, but she's 

346
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,440
being sexually exploited by the 
man who's helped her get it. 

347
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,280
It gets worse because he goes to
prison. 

348
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,360
And you would think, well, 
that's a relief for her, but in 

349
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,800
fact, it only gets worse. 
He pimped her from prison. 

350
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,720
He had, he had pimped her 
literally to get favours on the 

351
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,280
inside from prison. 
So she was never free of the 

352
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,760
abuse. 
And then by the time I was 12, 

353
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,400
it was, you know, he had designs
on me. 

354
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,800
It did the words that she 
described it as is the grasses 

355
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,360
weaner with your daughter. 
So my mum shipped me off to 

356
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,840
Pakistan to live with my 
grandparents, my mum's mum, her 

357
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,640
dad and her brother and sister 
who lived in a village in Azad 

358
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,040
Kashmir. 
I mean, so you're, you're sent 

359
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,080
off literally to a village and 
it's, it's a pretty basic place.

360
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,200
Very basic place. 
It doesn't have a toilet. 

361
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:40,280
It has. 
We were, we were very privileged

362
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,800
that we had a water tank at the 
top of the village which 

363
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,200
serviced the water tanks in our 
houses. 

364
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,800
But it was let me describe a day
for you. 

365
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,320
You get up in the morning at 
four O 4 AM 3:00 AM. 

366
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,280
You've got 2 buffaloes. 
The Buffalo's milk is what gives

367
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,520
you the income because people 
come and buy, you know, that's 

368
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,200
like half a pint if you like. 
And they used to buy quarter of 

369
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,680
a pint of milk or a, or a whole 
pint of milk. 

370
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,400
And you, you're taking the 
buffaloes from 1 space into an 

371
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,120
inside place where you're 
feeding them, where you can milk

372
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:12,280
them and the outside overnight, 
all the Buffalo dung, you're 

373
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,240
cleaning that up with them, you 
know, with like A and homemade 

374
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,160
brush to, to get the, the clean 
bit out. 

375
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,680
So you can go and put that on 
the, on the ceiling and put it 

376
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,920
in a basket, take it up to the 
ceiling, turn it into patties 

377
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,280
with your hands, taking out the 
beetles, if there are any 

378
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,400
beetles in there, making it 
flat. 

379
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,320
So on the roof you've got the 
sun that will dry it out. 

380
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,840
And that evening or the next 
day, you'd bring it back down 

381
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,920
and you turn that into the fuel.
And then the, the dung that 

382
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,160
wasn't so clean because it had 
maybe hay in it, etcetera. 

383
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,560
You'd put that in another 
basket, walk to the end of the 

384
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,400
street to the manure dump and 
put it on the manure dump 

385
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,960
because that would then be used 
by farmers and farmers would 

386
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,600
come and buy it to fertilize 
their fields with during the day

387
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,400
if you went to school. 
So Pakistan school in South 

388
00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,960
Kashmir was not like a British 
school. 

389
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,360
So I was 12, I was teaching my 
head teacher how to read and 

390
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:06,840
write English, you know, because
she was that lovely lady Mumtaz.

391
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,560
And then I was teaching her. 
So I was still, I went to 

392
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,920
school, but schooling is like 
years and years behind. 

393
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,560
What did you think? 
I mean, you've been told you 

394
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:15,920
were being sent on holiday. 
You weren't. 

395
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,840
You weren't even told. 
But you. 

396
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,560
Were going there to live. 
A British kid, I loved it when I

397
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,120
got there. 
It's like living on a farm, 

398
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:23,520
isn't it? 
It's like, Oh my God, all these 

399
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,880
chickens, you know, the, the, 
the chicken, the hens, if you 

400
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,640
tried to pick up a chicken, the 
hen would attack you. 

401
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,600
So you've got, you've got some 
seeds. 

402
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,360
Put a basket on top of the hen. 
Just isolate it from its the 

403
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,880
chickens so that you could pick 
up these baby chicks. 

404
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,760
And you had, you know, you had 
goat and you had a dog and you 

405
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,280
had a donkey and you know, I 
used to sit on the donkey. 

406
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,160
It's like, you know, not like 
quite like going to Blackpool on

407
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,600
the donkey, but it was still, 
you know, sitting on a donkey. 

408
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,560
These were exciting things to a 
12 year old. 

409
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,840
That excitement soon wore off 
because that holiday turned into

410
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,280
two years and four months. 
And it didn't end until I had a 

411
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,560
forced marriage at 15. 
So how? 

412
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,400
How did the forced marriage come
about? 

413
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,800
Well, I didn't even. 
Think a political thing you know

414
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,040
as well. 
You know George Galloway tried 

415
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,000
to use it against you. 
Oh God, yeah, it. 

416
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,040
Backfired spectacularly because 
you know, you had a you had a 15

417
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,560
year old ceremony, but then also
a 16 year old ceremony. 

418
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,560
You had to go back, which you 
had effectively consented to 

419
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,920
under duress. 
Yeah, so here's the thing you 

420
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,640
say to a 15 year old. 
You know, you've got to go back 

421
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,080
to the story, which is my, my 
mother's brother's weren't, 

422
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,120
weren't supportive because of, 
because my mum wanted to keep 

423
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,480
her kids, because my, my uncle's
actually told my mother to give 

424
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,280
up her kids and we'd look after 
you. 

425
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,280
And she said no. 
So effectively she'd lost her 

426
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,400
brother's for the sake of his 
children. 

427
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,080
This is how it was pitched to 
me. 

428
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,840
So your mother has got one 
brother left who is here in 

429
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,240
Pakistan and it's her son that 
they want me to marry. 

430
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,800
So if you don't agree to this 
marry, you will separate them in

431
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,240
grave in their graves. 
Imagine telling a 12 year old 

432
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,920
for a 15 year old that it's your
responsibility to maintain your 

433
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,080
mother's relationship with her 
brother by marrying her son 

434
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:09,520
because his son because because 
of you, your mother lost two 

435
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,120
brothers. 
Because of you, your mother, you

436
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,920
know to to for you children. 
So you owe it to her. 

437
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,800
That's not a normal conversation
to a 15 year old. 

438
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,280
That's not the pressure. 
I mean, imagine you, you're 

439
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,720
telling your own kid you got to 
go do your bedroom because 

440
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,600
you're going to you're going to 
get grounded or whatever. 

441
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,880
That's one thing of putting 
pressure on a 15 year old. 

442
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,360
But having saying to somebody 
that you are responsible for 

443
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:33,520
your mother and father, mother 
and her brother's relationship 

444
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,480
to be separated in their graves,
the amount of pressure that puts

445
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:38,760
on you. 
And I didn't recognise that as 

446
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,160
the forced marriage until, until
I was in my 30s. 

447
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,680
I didn't actually call it out 
and accept it, I suppose because

448
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,480
A, there wasn't enough 
information about forced 

449
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,400
marriages. 
But B is that that was coercion 

450
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,600
and that was. 
Because. 

451
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,320
Because you had a British 
passport, presumably. 

452
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,200
Well, yeah, because I was 
British and he would come here, 

453
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,880
these prospects would change all
of those things. 

454
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,200
But he was and it was a done 
thing. 

455
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,480
It wasn't just about Britain. 
It was, you know, it was a done 

456
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,600
thing of marrying, you know, she
was marrying your first cousin, 

457
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,480
marrying your first cousin. 
It was like it was an 

458
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,480
expectation. 
So you so in my 30s, I'm fine 

459
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,640
kind of when during my husband 
that you refer to, somebody went

460
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,640
over and posed as my dead father
to the village where to be in 

461
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,000
Midborough where they have the 
registration document and pulled

462
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,880
out when he can't. 
Now Mark from when I was when I 

463
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,000
was 16 because I had to re 
register it because I couldn't 

464
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,600
bring him over as a spouse 
because 1516 was a legal age. 

465
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,880
So I had money car at 15. 
Then I had to reregister it and 

466
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,200
go at 16. 
And then then that Nikonama was 

467
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,800
what he pulled out and he said, 
oh, well, she wasn't forced into

468
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:39,600
a marriage. 
She's lying. 

469
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,960
Her mother was there. 
The idea that your parent is 

470
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,000
there and they're not forced 
into into a marriage is just 

471
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:44,440
absurd. 
So. 

472
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,120
You weren't really aware that 
you had been forced into 

473
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,160
marriage. 
No, not at that time, no. 

474
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,600
You were grind effectively. 
Yeah, because my mum, I had AI 

475
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,600
had a 3 minute call. 
So my mum, one of my uncles said

476
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,680
your mum wants to do it and I 
always wanted to do what my mum 

477
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,920
wanted. 
My mum was told I wanted to 

478
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,080
marry him and so we had this 
call and it talks about in the 

479
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,480
book, the call, the phone, 
there's only one phone in the 

480
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,920
village and it's 2, the 2nd St. 
up. 

481
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,920
So you're in this house, you've 
got to run out from here. 

482
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,680
Go. 
The call comes from the ceiling,

483
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,600
from their roof. 
There's a phone call, come over,

484
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,520
you run out, cross the road, go 
up to another set of stairs, 

485
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,320
down another set of stairs into 
the house where the phone is. 

486
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,720
So that's taken you 2030 
seconds. 

487
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,320
There's only a 3 minute trunk 
call. 

488
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,720
And then by the time you're on 
the phone, the rest of the 

489
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,360
family catches up and I have 20 
seconds to say to my mum, she 

490
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,600
says whatever you want. 
And I said no, no, no, whatever 

491
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,400
you want. 
And then the phone gets taken 

492
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,360
off you. 
And in that miscommunication, my

493
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:44,440
whole life changed. 
But see what what's surprising 

494
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,200
to me, you know, reading us all 
is that is that you did go along

495
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,640
with it even afterwards. 
So, so you know, let's skip 

496
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,360
forward a bit. 
You end up coming back to 

497
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,600
Britain and your, your husband 
comes back with you. 

498
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:04,840
And even though you're now sort 
of late teens and sort of and 

499
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,760
British, you, you stick with it,
you kind of go along with it. 

500
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,280
Yeah, because when I came back 
from Pakistan, first thing, my 

501
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,040
mum was really angry. 
She said, why did you do it? 

502
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,280
And I said, well, because you 
you said I I was told you wanted

503
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,520
to do it, said no. 
And my mum offered me the 

504
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,880
option. 
At that point she went, no, I 

505
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,520
didn't want you to do this. 
You can get divorced now. 

506
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:23,960
But here's the thing about 
honour. 

507
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,680
And here's the thing about is 
that it's a women that have to 

508
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,920
maintain it. 
So the idea that my mother was 

509
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,280
divorced, a single parent, my 
auntie was, was divorced in a 

510
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,760
single parent. 
And it's like, so I'm the first 

511
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,200
girl who's got married. 
I've got a sister. 

512
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,120
That pressure is so ingrained in
you that you've got to then 

513
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:43,800
maintain the is that so I can't 
then go and get a divorce 

514
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,200
because that would bring basity,
which is dishonor. 

515
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,720
So even that pressure. 
So it was like, OK, I'll go 

516
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,560
along with this thinking he's 
not going to get his visa for 10

517
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,360
years, eight years or whatever. 
He got his visa first time. 

518
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,840
So he came to the UK and then 
eventually in January, I think 

519
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,360
he came in the summer and in 
January I left. 

520
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,000
I thought I can't do this and I 
wanted to, I wanted an 

521
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,520
education. 
I still crave education, you 

522
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,280
know. 
So I left and I went to Watford 

523
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,640
to stay with a friend of mine, 
went and got a little room and 

524
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,800
then my mum misled me and said 
to me, oh, he's left and he's 

525
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,720
gone to Germany. 
So I came back to Bradford and 

526
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,920
that was in January, February, 
February of the April before. 

527
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,400
And then I finally thought, OK, 
I'm going to go back to 

528
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,440
university or College in 
September. 

529
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,280
And then my whole life changed 
again in April with Azam's 

530
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,080
murder, Uncle Azam's murder. 
So my mum killed the man who 

531
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,120
abused her and that was on April
the 11th. 

532
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:47,600
So how, how did your mum end up 
killing the man who had been 

533
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,680
exploiting her and abusing her? 
So I came back when I'd left 

534
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,040
home. 
I'd come back in February and 

535
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,080
then in April, my sister was now
reaching a similar age. 

536
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,480
She was reaching 12. 
She was going to be 12 in July. 

537
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,400
And then he also, you know, the 
you, the grass is greener with 

538
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,080
her. 
That conversation happened. 

539
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,400
And the minute that happened, 
and I think that when I look 

540
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,040
back at it and I tried to think 
what my mum must have been going

541
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,840
through is that I've taken one 
girl, sent her to Pakistan. 

542
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,360
She's had a forced marriage. 
I don't agree with that. 

543
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,960
Now the second one's growing up.
What am I going to do? 

544
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,880
So instead of, you know, I think
by the time she poisoned him, 

545
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,200
she first she poisoned him to 
kill his libido and that worked 

546
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,080
for a while. 
And the second time she poisoned

547
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,360
him, I don't think she genuinely
didn't care whether he lived or 

548
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,960
died because her mental state 
was that bad after years of 

549
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,520
abuse that she gave him a fatal 
dose of arsenic and he died. 

550
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,280
And then it was where. 
Did she get the arsenic? 

551
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,680
She got it from Pakistan because
it was a remedy. 

552
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,560
It was an old wives remedy or 
whatever her thinking was of 

553
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,600
just to lower his sexual drive. 
But I don't think she cared 

554
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,240
whether, I don't even think she 
understood that it would kill 

555
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,600
him. 
I don't think she cared whether 

556
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,880
he lived or died by the time she
gave him the put fatal dose. 

557
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,480
And you were arrested. 
Yeah, I was, but I was. 

558
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,440
I was 18. 
Yeah, I was 18. 

559
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,520
Got arrested. 
And to me, I have this idea. 

560
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,600
It was the most exciting thing 
that had ever happened to me. 

561
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,160
You've got to understand, right?
I'm thinking, well, they've got 

562
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,920
it wrong because obviously I 
haven't killed him. 

563
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:16,920
So they've got it wrong. 
They take you to a police 

564
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,320
station. 
They take your clothes, they 

565
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,600
take all your hair and nail 
samples. 

566
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,160
And the police officer officer 
sat by the door being really 

567
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,080
nice to me. 
So I'm thinking and they've 

568
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,920
given me this white onesie suit 
kind of thing to wear like a Jay

569
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,680
clock material. 
And I'm laughing and joking with

570
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,800
the police saying, oh, this is 
looks sexy too foxy. 

571
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,040
Think of the word, you know, 
imagine going out in a day in 

572
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,760
this. 
They'll give me magazines. 

573
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,320
I didn't realize I was really, 
really naive. 

574
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,440
I'd not had a normal, you know, 
kind of exposure. 

575
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,080
I, I didn't realise it was 
suicide watch because I'd been 

576
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,680
arrested for such a serious 
thing. 

577
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,200
But in my head it was like, 
well, Britain doesn't get that 

578
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,520
wrong. 
You know, we don't have 

579
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,160
miscarriages of justice are 
rare. 

580
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,040
I haven't done anything that I, 
I was very clear about. 

581
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,680
So to me it was all 
misunderstanding that get 

582
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,960
cleared up and I'd have this 
experience but. 

583
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,240
You didn't know, did you, that 
he had been abusing your your 

584
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,880
mum? 
So so were you sad that he had 

585
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,920
died? 
Yeah, I actually, I grieved for 

586
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,600
him. 
I absolutely grieved for him 

587
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,280
when when Uncle Azam died, you 
know, to me, he was never, I 

588
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:17,920
never saw that side. 
Do you know what I mean? 

589
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,720
I didn't see. 
I didn't see. 

590
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,400
And I mean, now when I look back
at it and hindsight, it's a 

591
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,600
wonderful thing. 
And when you look at how abuse 

592
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,280
works and how control and power 
works, it makes perfect sense 

593
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,680
because the minute she we found 
out when Pragna Patel from 

594
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,200
Southall Black Sisters pieced 
that together because the 

595
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,640
forensics were clear. 
Cushion should should kill him. 

596
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,880
The forensics were absolutely 
clear. 

597
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,120
So why did she do it? 
Why does a woman kill a man? 

598
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,120
It's not a done thing. 
It's not normal. 

599
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,080
So when pregnant, it was, you 
know, when she went to see her, 

600
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,960
she was. 
So she went to see her and my 

601
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,320
mum told her the story. 
She said This is why, you know, 

602
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,400
she, she counselled her and she 
told why she'd done it. 

603
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400
She accepted she'd done it. 
And then when she told why she'd

604
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,320
done it, at that point it was 
like, OK, we can have grounds 

605
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,680
for appeal. 
And then my mum was like, no, 

606
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,840
not talking about it, not doing 
this, not talking about it. 

607
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,880
Basically. 
Is it all of us transition the 

608
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,160
shame? 
Was it the shame of the sexual 

609
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,280
exploitation? 
Yeah, the shame of, the shame of

610
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,040
talking about it, the shame of 
and that and that still applies.

611
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,280
You know, women in up and down 
our country are still everywhere

612
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,320
across the world abuse, but 
can't talk about it because of a

613
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,240
shame, because it's a taboo 
subject, because, you know, it's

614
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,320
just not. 
And that that was that is how it

615
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,160
works. 
She changed her mind though, 

616
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,400
didn't she, and decided to to 
speak out. 

617
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,040
Yeah, only because we made it. 
We. 

618
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,480
We literally. 
I was going to say, so how, how 

619
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,320
did you change her mind? 
Well, we, figuratively speaking,

620
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,320
literally had to grab her by the
shoulder and she'd give her a 

621
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,720
shake saying whose is it? 
Are you trying to protect mum or

622
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,600
the family who abandoned you, 
the community who didn't care 

623
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:51,920
for you? 
Which is it? 

624
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,160
Whose is it? 
We were left back to square one 

625
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,840
with bin liners moving from one 
place to another. 

626
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,040
We went to Leeds, we went to 
Sheffield to escape this idea of

627
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,480
our mother is in prison. 
You know, I remember going to 

628
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,280
Sheffield, working in a 
restaurant and I told everybody,

629
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,480
you are parents in Pakistan 
because it was busy, it was 

630
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760
dishonourable because our mother
was in prison. 

631
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,760
And that catches up with you 
because somebody somewhere finds

632
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,560
out that actually your mother's 
in prison. 

633
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:16,920
And my sister got bullied at 
school. 

634
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,440
So we went from Leeds to 
Sheffield to back to Bradford, 

635
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,320
you know, And then it was like, 
look, let's go back to Bradford.

636
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,720
Once she's spoken her truth, 
then we went back to Bradford. 

637
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,120
Now, so it was taken up. 
I don't want to tell the whole 

638
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,920
story in detail because I think 
people should read it. 

639
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,480
But I mean, essentially it was 
taken up by this campaign group.

640
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,960
The appeal failed, yeah, but 
ultimately you went to the home 

641
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,720
secretary, Jack Straw, and he 
reduced the sentence. 

642
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,440
But she still had years to 
serve. 

643
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,560
Yeah, she still served 14 years.
Yeah. 

644
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,960
What? 
What did you learn about the way

645
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,880
the system approached a story 
like hers and believed or 

646
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,520
disbelieved a woman like her? 
And do you think that's changed?

647
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,520
I think it, I think the system 
doesn't get it. 

648
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,680
I still don't think it's 100%. 
I think we've still got too much

649
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,760
work to do when it comes to 
women and violence. 

650
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,360
So one of the things that I 
learned earlier on was that a, 

651
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,760
when I first spoke in public, I 
just cried through it. 

652
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,840
But then I realized a woman 
could be battered for 20 years 

653
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,200
and one day snap and protect 
herself in self defence. 

654
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,160
Kill a man and she will get 
lifed off. 

655
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,240
And a man can bat a woman for 20
years and eventually kill her. 

656
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,320
And yet he could walk with 
manslaughter and somebody would 

657
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,960
actually. 
And a judge has been quoted 

658
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,280
saying this. 
Well, she shouldn't have nagged 

659
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,320
him. 
That is, that was the difference

660
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,840
between the justice system, 
between women and men. 

661
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,240
And for three judges in the 
Appeal Court to say that my 

662
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,480
mother had no honour left to 
salvage and she was unbelievable

663
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,360
that they didn't believe her. 
If, if Zora Shah happened today,

664
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,000
I don't think we'd had the same 
outcome. 

665
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,320
I think we have much more of an 
understanding. 

666
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,520
So in that respect we have 
improved a great deal. 

667
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,480
But do we get it right? 
Has this, is the system perfect?

668
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:01,640
No, it isn't. 
Not for women. 

669
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,160
No it isn't. 
What those judges said was that 

670
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,400
she had clearly lied and so they
couldn't be sure that she wasn't

671
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,600
still lying. 
Given your mum had also 

672
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,520
effectively lied to you, kept 
things from you, how? 

673
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,880
How could you be sure that she 
wasn't still lying to you? 

674
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,640
Because she she when she kept 
her story from from no. 

675
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,560
And I know this because of 
personal experience of what my 

676
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,800
mum went through, etcetera. 
When you're being abused, the 

677
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,520
whole concept of domestic 
violence is about power. 

678
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,480
So whenever the abuse happens, 
it is vulnerability juxtaposed 

679
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,560
with power. 
And the things that keeps it 

680
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,640
there is the silence. 
And it's a silence that allows 

681
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,120
it to be maintained. 
Because to break the silence, 

682
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,800
you break the chain of domestic 
violence and you don't talk 

683
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,240
about it. 
You don't tell people that 

684
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,320
you've been if you it's, it's a,
you know, the average woman at 

685
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,160
that time took 40 attempts to 
leave an abusive relationship 

686
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,880
before she left. 
And how it's maintained is 

687
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,640
silence. 
So it's not that she lied. 

688
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,200
It's because she kept silent. 
She did not talk about her 

689
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,320
abuse. 
So she didn't make she didn't 

690
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,000
she pleaded not guilty to 
killing. 

691
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,239
She didn't give evidence at her 
first trial. 

692
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,320
And when she did give evidence, 
when she did tell her story, she

693
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,400
it was found to be incapable of 
belief because the judge said 

694
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,159
she didn't have because of the 
whole concept of honor. 

695
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,280
The reason why she didn't tell 
the truth was because of is that

696
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,960
and the judges did not get the 
head drowned. 

697
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,840
The idea that she had any is it 
to salvage was was their 

698
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,679
response. 
That is why they felt that she 

699
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:39,280
was incapable of belief. 
So it wasn't because of and that

700
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,400
she'd she'd lied, it was because
she never told her truth to 

701
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,360
begin with and lied that she was
not guilty. 

702
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,880
Now today we would understand 
when we have a victim of 

703
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,639
domestic violence and you have 
so many. 

704
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,440
You know, a woman doesn't have 
repeated abortions, repeated St.

705
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,639
DS in a healthy relationship 
unless there is abuse. 

706
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,760
So all of that abuse was there 
and they didn't get that. 

707
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,240
They'd absolutely didn't get 
that. 

708
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,160
I don't. 
I think Lord Chief Justice 

709
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,080
Bingham, in reducing his, in 
reducing my mother's tariff, 

710
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,560
accepted that she was driven to 
do what she did, which is why 

711
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,360
Jack Straw then reduced the 
tariff to 12 years. 

712
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:21,160
I mean, the idea of of abused 
women killing is is now being 

713
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,320
introduced in law, isn't it? 
What? 

714
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,960
What do you think needs to be 
done to actually make that 

715
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,840
effective? 
I think there's so much, I think

716
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,560
there's a, you know, from a 
political perspective, I'm 

717
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,640
really, really grateful for the 
Violence against Women and girls

718
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,960
strategy. 
It's the boldest things, that 

719
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,400
boldest and biggest thing that 
we've done as a society in 

720
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,960
Parliament and that's been 
developing over the years. 

721
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,680
It's not just our government, 
even previously known to the 

722
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,400
previous government, this has 
been given the rightful 

723
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680
attention. 
It needs more attention. 

724
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,360
The majority of women in prison 
have experienced abuse there. 

725
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,760
There's lots of women who offend
because they're coerced into 

726
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,040
offending, because they're 
abused, because they're 

727
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,160
battered, you know, very, very 
different things. 

728
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,640
I think we need to, well, I 
think there's lots of 

729
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,480
understanding still to be, you 
know, shared with society to, 

730
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,280
for society to understand it and
for judges to understand it. 

731
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,920
I cannot imagine 3 judges today 
saying what they said about my 

732
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,560
mother today. 
Do you know what I mean? 

733
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,640
Reading that book or understand 
in fact, one of our then 

734
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,240
ministers at the time when this 
was happening read the book and 

735
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:27,960
he's one of our front benchers 
now actually said to me, I wish 

736
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,800
I'd have read this book at the 
time. 

737
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,480
You know, I wish you'd, this was
there at the time I'd have, I'd 

738
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,600
have be, I'd have understood 
more, you know. 

739
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,120
So that's the, that's the, I 
suppose Nazi. 

740
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,160
The thing for me is like, yeah, 
it is having an impact and we 

741
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,040
have moved as a society. 
I've been Speaking of writing 

742
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,200
the book. 
I mean, I suppose it's worth 

743
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,200
saying you didn't have to take a
break from it because it was too

744
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,920
distressing for you to carry on.
Well, in, in 2017 when I wrote 

745
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,560
once some of those chapters, I'd
literally, I didn't realize that

746
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,400
I had so much healing and so 
much trauma because I just got 

747
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,240
on with it, you know, because 
I've just been a fight or flight

748
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:08,640
adrenaline, you know, had my own
children, had my marriage, you 

749
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,440
know, after the first marriage 
ended and you got on with life, 

750
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,520
you know, you were always 
fighting for 14 years, even to 

751
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,200
get my mum out, even at the 12th
year to get her parole, she had 

752
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,560
to serve an extra 2 years 
because you have to satisfy the 

753
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,040
parole board. 
You'll never offend again and 

754
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,920
that you've repented and you've 
been punished and you 

755
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,520
rehabilitated. 
Well, my mum's punishment and 

756
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,880
rehabilitation the way it wasn't
the Eurocentric model of going 

757
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,760
on training courses. 
Her way was repentance by 

758
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,840
becoming the best in your 
version of her, by praying to 

759
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,720
God for forgiveness, you know, 
saying sorry, all of those 

760
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:43,360
things. 
So we then had to get a 

761
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,200
transcultural psychiatrist to do
a report of her model of 

762
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,840
repentance to show that to the 
parole board. 

763
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,440
So every time it was just 
fighting and fighting and 

764
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,600
fighting. 
And then, you know, I've just 

765
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,480
lost my friend. 
Then when he came, you know, 

766
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,440
coming through all of that, the 
healing that I had to do, I 

767
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,040
didn't recognize, you know, I 
tried to kill myself one time, 

768
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,680
but I tried to twice. 
I think first time was a cry for

769
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,000
help, but the second time I 
didn't want to get up. 

770
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,840
I really, really, it was like it
was Eid. 

771
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,160
Eid is always, always difficult,
even when I talk about it now, 

772
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,800
you know, when you're on the end
of Ramadan. 

773
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,160
Yeah, the end of Ramadan Eid. 
Mum's not there. 

774
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,800
Mum's in prison. 
Brother and sister in Pakistan 

775
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,000
because mum sent me to Pakistan.
Brother went to get her and I'm 

776
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,440
literally sleeping on a, on a 
really, really one of my 

777
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,840
brother's friends really kindly 
gave me this. 

778
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,080
They had a little spare room, 
but it was for the dog. 

779
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,600
It was the dog slept in that 
small room and it was they had a

780
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,520
mattress for the dog, but he 
slept on and I was sleeping on 

781
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,840
that and I just didn't want to 
wake up. 

782
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,280
It was like my cousin Penny rang
me. 

783
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,680
I talk about it in the book and 
it was the only blood that I 

784
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,320
spoke to that day. 
And it's like Eid and it's 

785
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,680
Christmas, you know, it's like 
Christmas. 

786
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,400
It's. 
Supposed to be a great 

787
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,640
celebration. 
And it wasn't and it was just I 

788
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,520
didn't want to wake up and I, 
you know, took tried to tried to

789
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:00,160
kill myself. 
I. 

790
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,600
Mean what? 
What happened to you, I suppose,

791
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,760
Was that that you, your mother's
case made you an activist for 

792
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:17,320
your mother's case. 
But from that, you know, you 

793
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,520
became, you know, more of a sort
of a public citizen and an 

794
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,320
activist on a much bigger scale.
Just explain that transition 

795
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,920
because I think we can all 
understand why you would fight 

796
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,280
for your mum. 
Why did you then want to go on 

797
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:39,320
and fight at a different level? 
I think because you realise you 

798
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,360
know you can, it's, it's when 
you a, you have lived 

799
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,960
experience, a, you realize that 
politicians don't get it right 

800
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,960
and you want to parliament to 
get it. 

801
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,640
You realize the judges don't get
it. 

802
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,280
You want to change that system. 
So it's like, how do you change 

803
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,640
it? 
You have to get in it to change 

804
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,000
it. 
You can't change it from the 

805
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,560
outside. 
You've got to be able to 

806
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,560
systemic change it, change. 
So I had a very, very 

807
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,840
privileged, huge privilege of 
going on to a leadership program

808
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,800
when I was in the NHS as part of
the national breaking through 

809
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,440
program. 
And I did a transformational 

810
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,040
leadership program and adopted 
Eden. 

811
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,680
And Valerie James, they were 
amazing. 

812
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,640
And what they taught us was that
you've got to, you've got to 

813
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,680
have a, you've got to feel the 
burden of leadership and you've 

814
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,640
got to make systemic 
interventions. 

815
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,560
And when you're making systemic 
interventions, those 

816
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,200
interventions for me, this book 
is a systemic intervention 

817
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,200
because it'll impact on the 
thinking of different directors,

818
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,080
be it justice, be it women, be 
it child poverty, be it 

819
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,000
education. 
So you're making those and you 

820
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,560
can't do that from the outside. 
You can, you can do, you can, 

821
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:40,400
you can influence in a major 
way, but where better to be on 

822
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,560
the inside, talking to people, 
having access and to be able to 

823
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,400
speak from a lived experience 
without authenticity. 

824
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,120
So I've got 2 passions. 
My first passion is community 

825
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,880
development. 
My second is leadership and 

826
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,800
communities. 
How do you, how do you stop 

827
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,200
another Nas being created? 
How do you stop? 

828
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,280
Because that has to be, you 
know, it has to be a, you know, 

829
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,200
litmus test. 
There can't be another Nas. 

830
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,200
There should never be yet, but 
there are. 

831
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,080
This is it. 
So what do you do? 

832
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,960
So, you know, the, the, the 
thing that really, really messed

833
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,400
things up for us was the idea of
patriarchy. 

834
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,920
The idea of is that the idea of,
you know, that notion of women's

835
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,440
behaviour and it's not, that's 
not what it should be. 

836
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,360
So you have to take a community 
and that's what I say community 

837
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,440
development is. 
You have to take a community 

838
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,520
with you to better that 
society's understanding. 

839
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,240
I mean, obviously all, all of 
this plays into the debate 

840
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:35,920
around grooming and, you know, 
whether politicians and 

841
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,520
authorities have been honest 
with themselves and with each 

842
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,400
other and with communities 
around, whether there is 

843
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,080
something about the patriarchy 
in Pakistani communities in 

844
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:53,360
places like Bradford that means 
it is a bigger risk. 

845
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:59,040
Now, everything about your story
suggests it is OK. 

846
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:05,880
So, so where do you stand on 
this in terms of grasping the 

847
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,320
challenges you know that that 
are clearly out there right now?

848
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,680
So. 
So, so let's be really clear, 

849
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,040
there is an absolute model of 
abuse and that's grooming that 

850
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,880
the free CSE models that that is
pertinent to Pakistani men. 

851
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,320
That is not racist to say that 
it is not. 

852
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,840
I think if we we didn't say that
we'd be, we'd be doing a 

853
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,440
disservice to the victim. 
That's the first thing. 

854
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,520
So how do you then work with 
that community to make sure that

855
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,400
model of abusing abuse is 
eradicated and is stopped? 

856
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,040
Could. 
You just before you before you 

857
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,880
go to the next stage. 
Could you just explain why it 

858
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,000
is? 
Because it's a that. 

859
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,080
There is a model that. 
There is a model. 

860
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,880
That pertains to Pakistani men. 
Why is there, Why is there a 

861
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,600
model I, I, I, Why is there a 
model of familial abuse or 

862
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,560
online abuse which is pertinent 
to white men? 

863
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,760
I think the answer is simple. 
It's power. 

864
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,200
It's, it's absolute predatory 
behaviour. 

865
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,360
And that can come from different
communities, different spaces, 

866
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,960
just like it was in the church, 
just like it was in, you know, 

867
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,120
in all spaces. 
And I think for me, it's down to

868
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,120
misogyny, it's down to hatred, 
it's down to patriarchy, it's 

869
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,880
down to lots of things. 
You know, why did Epstein 

870
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,600
happen? 
Why did the Me Too movement 

871
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,640
happen? 
It's all about not respecting 

872
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,160
women. 
It's all about predatory 

873
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,360
behaviour, It's all about 
misogyny. 

874
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,400
It all comes back to all of 
these things that we need to fix

875
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,800
in society. 
So that's not just pertinent to 

876
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,520
this community, it's a different
model of abuse, which is 

877
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,880
pertinent the Pakistani, where 
men from Pakistani heritage are 

878
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,600
absolutely overrepresented. 
So you speak to that community, 

879
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,520
you educate the community, just 
like you educate others and you 

880
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,800
stop it. 
And when I say educate, what I'm

881
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,040
saying is you, you treat it's 
like a public health campaign, 

882
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,280
which is it's not OK. 
It's not OK for anybody to abuse

883
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,720
a woman. 
That's whether it's being 

884
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,120
domestic violence, whether it's 
grooming, whether it's online 

885
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:04,640
grooming, whether it's familial 
abuse, whether it's in York, in 

886
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,320
in structures of organisations, 
all of it. 

887
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,480
How? 
Do you do that without tipping 

888
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,960
over almost an entire culture? 
You know, because because what 

889
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,720
you are saying is that there is 
so much cultural here that is 

890
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:23,800
wrong, that is born out of, that
is not about Islam or about 

891
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,640
Pakistan. 
That is often about poverty, 

892
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,840
about tradition, about, you 
know, repeated behaviours just 

893
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,200
being mimicked down the 
generations, but which people 

894
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,480
hold onto as their traditions. 
How, How do you, how do you, how

895
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,480
do you, how do you break that in
a respectful way? 

896
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,560
Well, there isn't. 
There isn't a respectful way of 

897
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,600
breaking the idea that's. 
The wrong way of putting it, I 

898
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,560
suppose. 
Yeah, I mean in a way, in a way 

899
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,520
that doesn't trash a whole 
culture. 

900
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:59,840
So you'd not so, so when people 
have selective outrage and pick 

901
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,360
a, you know, and use it because 
it was just one community, 

902
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,320
that's different. 
That's, that's, that's not how 

903
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,720
we dress it, how we address a 
culture or anything that's wrong

904
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,800
is you go and work with that 
community, you go and work with 

905
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,320
us. 
So when we were addressing drink

906
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,040
driving, we didn't go to the 
churches, did we, on a Sunday 

907
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,760
because the drink drivers 
wouldn't be in the church on a 

908
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,920
Sunday because they'd been 
nursing a hangover from the 

909
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,440
night before. 
So we went to the nightclubs, we

910
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,720
went to the clubs and we made it
an absolute society wise. 

911
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:28,920
We made it something that was 
abhorrent and it was, you know, 

912
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,240
with that, that campaign was 
hugely successful because you 

913
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:34,520
make it that it's not acceptable
in society. 

914
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:40,040
And that's how you tackle any 
form of abuse and it be it in 

915
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,920
institutions. 
You you go in and you talk about

916
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,920
it and the same applies to that 
model of abuse. 

917
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,080
You go to the community because 
that when that community is 

918
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,280
tarnished, the whole community 
is tarnished. 

919
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,040
The majority, the vast majority 
of my community, Christian, I 

920
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,080
wouldn't be, no. 
I love my community. 

921
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,440
I love parts of my culture. 
I'm not going to trash it just 

922
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,080
because of my experience. 
I'm going to work with that 

923
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,000
community and celebrate the best
of it, but equally talk about 

924
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,480
the uncomfortable truths that 
this also happens. 

925
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,920
Because what people also say 
needs to be done is, you know, 

926
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:19,320
is that people who know or 
suspect also need to do 

927
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,800
something. 
Now, again, in your own example,

928
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,160
people knew your family knew 
what was going on. 

929
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,800
People must have suspected there
was something going on, but 

930
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,560
people didn't speak up. 
So how, how do you tackle that 

931
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,200
and say you've got to speak up? 
Because everybody knows grooming

932
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,080
is wrong. 
Everybody knows sexual abuse of 

933
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,560
young teenagers is wrong. 
You know, it's not that you need

934
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,280
to persuade people that are 
socially unacceptable. 

935
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:47,840
You need to persuade people to 
do something about it. 

936
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,640
You've got to talk about it. 
It's just like anything, just 

937
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,120
like domestic violence, you've 
got to talk about it. 

938
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,400
So before I came into politics, 
we did, there's an amazing guy 

939
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,560
in Bradford answerally, who set 
up a group called Together 

940
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,000
Against Grooming, worked with 
Nazir Afzal. 

941
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,760
He was, this is before I came 
into politics and we did a 

942
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,800
massive first time ever in the 
Western Hemisphere. 

943
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,240
I think it was the first time 
globally where we did a 

944
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,920
structured Hutba on a Friday, 
Friday afternoon, the Friday 

945
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,120
prayers with most structured, 
what a Hutba. 

946
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,200
So it was a sermon, a Friday 
prayer, sermon in the mosques 

947
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,800
and the sermon we got all the 
mosque to deliver the same 

948
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,560
sermon condemning the abuse, 
condemning all of this. 

949
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,320
That's how you change society. 
You talk about it, you allow you

950
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,760
give people the confidence to 
talk about it. 

951
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,680
You tell them this is wrong. 
You say you have a 

952
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,640
responsibility. 
You remind people of our 

953
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,360
responsibilities. 
You know, that is why if we look

954
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,040
at the sexual abuse scandals 
from histories and histories, 

955
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,960
why this was happening in the 
churches, We don't we, I'd like 

956
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,320
to think it doesn't happen there
anymore. 

957
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,000
You know, what was happening in 
institutions. 

958
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,640
I'd like to think it doesn't 
happen in, you know, it happened

959
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,200
in in studios like this one. 
You know, it happened in 

960
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:57,840
Hollywood. 
It happened all, everywhere 

961
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,920
where it's happened. 
How do you change that culture? 

962
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,760
Because you talk about it. 
You talk about it and you say 

963
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,000
this happened, this cannot 
happen and this must stop. 

964
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:08,880
The Me Too movement is about 
that. 

965
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,360
All of these movements from 
every time we've had an issue in

966
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,760
society, it takes someone to 
say, no, this cannot happen. 

967
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,840
This is how we need to stop it, 
but we need to talk about it to 

968
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,440
be and, and put the 
responsibility on people who 

969
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,120
know to be able to have the 
confidence before me too, or 

970
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,080
before all these scandals in 
Hollywood and you know, in the 

971
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,000
BBC or whatever. 
Did people, all those people 

972
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,320
knew, all those people knew when
Saville was abusing those kids, 

973
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,200
you know, people, OK, not all of
you, but people, people were 

974
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,440
aware. 
People knew what was happening. 

975
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,360
Why didn't they speak up? 
Why didn't they speak up? 

976
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,920
And they didn't speak up because
there was an issue that we don't

977
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,000
talk about violence against 
women, we don't talk about abuse

978
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,760
like we should do. 
And it should not be a taboo 

979
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,800
subject. 
Why don't people speak up? 

980
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,280
That's why they don't speak up. 
What do we need to do? 

981
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,560
We need to take it to people to 
whether it be in communities, 

982
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,720
whether it be institutions, 
raise awareness, raise awareness

983
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,000
until you're red in the face to 
make sure it doesn't happen 

984
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,720
again. 
A lot, I think, of what you 

985
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:17,000
highlight about the community 
you grew up in also gets flipped

986
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,120
the other way as a way of 
attacking immigrant communities.

987
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,440
You know, people say, well, 
look, they keep themselves to 

988
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,840
themselves. 
They follow their own values. 

989
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,640
They're not our values. 
And, you know, in a way, you 

990
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,680
are, you are sort of revealing 
that there is some truth to 

991
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:41,920
that. 
How do you think, you know, 

992
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,560
communities like the one in 
Bradford should live in the 

993
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,080
future? 
You know, there is this tension 

994
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,680
between well, they should all 
integrate. 

995
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,920
They should be like us. 
They should live according to 

996
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,960
our rules. 
And and then the sort of the, 

997
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,200
the multicultural vision of 
Britain, which is you've got to 

998
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,120
let people be who they are and 
follow their own traditions. 

999
00:50:01,240 --> 00:50:04,320
What, what do you think is the 
resolvable tension there? 

1000
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,160
What are our values? 
What are our values are our 

1001
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,640
values that somebody who's 
raised in Buckingham Palace is 

1002
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,080
now, you know, stripped of his 
titles because he was 

1003
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,840
exploiting, you know, or, or 
whatever that was going on. 

1004
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,160
There are our values to be like 
somebody like, you know, Peter 

1005
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,280
Mandelson, you know, but which 
values are we talking about? 

1006
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,160
Values for me are human values 
and they are a across cultures 

1007
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,520
Christian. 
They are across absolutely every

1008
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,560
culture, every religion, every 
not, you know, non religion. 

1009
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,520
So my, my last election agent 
was a humanist, right. 

1010
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,320
I've had people I've worked with
people who do not believe, who 

1011
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,920
believe in a God, who believe in
their Hindus, Sikhs, that Jews 

1012
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,280
and you know, from different 
cultures, different communities 

1013
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,240
and the values that they bring 
to the table from more every, 

1014
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:54,400
everything that they bring that 
there is, there is patriarch in 

1015
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,160
every single society. 
There is patriarchy and misogyny

1016
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,520
in every single space. 
So if we're talking about those 

1017
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,560
values, two women a week are 
murdered in England every single

1018
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,080
week. 
And for the first time, women 

1019
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,320
are killing themselves as the 
number has increased of women 

1020
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,040
who commit suicide because of 
domestic violence. 

1021
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,680
Which values are we talking 
about? 

1022
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,320
Values. 
There is very skewed ways of 

1023
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,240
thinking in every single 
community. 

1024
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,840
But as, as a society, we have to
work together, take the best of 

1025
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,720
the values and shape society. 
There's beautiful values in my 

1026
00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:33,360
community that are looking after
our elderly, you know, that are 

1027
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,080
being there, you know, and I, I 
had major surgery in September 

1028
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,240
and I was at home for a few 
weeks. 

1029
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,080
Every one of my neighbors bought
me over food, bought me over 

1030
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,120
broths and chicken broths and 
yuknis. 

1031
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:46,800
And, you know, it was brilliant,
it was beautiful. 

1032
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,600
Those are community values. 
You know, community values are 

1033
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,560
when, you know, when I was 
campaigning for my mum, when I 

1034
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,160
was having petitions signed for 
Jack Straw, people would come up

1035
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,320
to me and say, no, we can't sign
this, but you have our support. 

1036
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:03,600
In 2019, I had an event for 
Islamic Relief, a fundraiser for

1037
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,240
a campaign called on her. 
This is the largest Muslim 

1038
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:11,920
charity in the world leading a 
campaign literally called Honour

1039
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,000
Her. 
The Chief Constable of West 

1040
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:15,880
Yorkshire, Sir Robbins, he spoke
at it. 

1041
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:20,440
And every business in my 
constituency, the 25 of a top 

1042
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,120
Muslim Pakistani businesses 
sponsored a table with their 

1043
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,280
name on proudly. 
That's where the community has 

1044
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,560
come from and that is where it 
is today. 

1045
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,520
Have we got more to do? 
Of course we do. 

1046
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,080
But we have as a society we 
have. 

1047
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,160
I have as Britain, even if I 
wasn't happened to be Muslim, 

1048
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,680
even if I didn't have to happen 
to have Pakistani heritage, we 

1049
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,880
as a society have things to 
shift when it comes to women, 

1050
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,360
when it comes to patriarchy, 
when it comes to misogyny, when 

1051
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,160
it comes to child abuse. 
Do you see where I'm coming 

1052
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:49,520
from? 
It also brings us to the 

1053
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,000
question of why you didn't run a
mile from from where you came 

1054
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:53,920
from. 
You know, there are people who 

1055
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,320
would say, after everything that
happened in terms of the men in 

1056
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:02,920
her life, how could she possibly
have found a happy marriage 

1057
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,440
partner who she wanted to be? 
But how could she have ever 

1058
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,960
trusted a man again? 
Why would she have ever wanted 

1059
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,600
to be around a culture that 
allowed this to happen, You 

1060
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,160
know, the center away that 
forced her into a marriage all 

1061
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:16,840
of those times? 
You know, why didn't she just 

1062
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,080
run away and do her own thing? 
And yet not only did you run 

1063
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,120
away, you are the MP for that 
community now. 

1064
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,320
Yeah. 
Absolutely, because there's 

1065
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,480
something about belonging, 
there's something about your 

1066
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,280
people, there's something about 
there's a beauty in every 

1067
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,360
culture and you hold on to that.
But and, and that, that, that 

1068
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,560
dishonour and that rejection 
that came from the community you

1069
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,080
work with that community, you 
embrace that community. 

1070
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:42,880
You show them the better version
of them. 

1071
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,960
You show them, you know, you 
hold the mirror up, you take 

1072
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,960
you, you have those brave 
conversations because for every 

1073
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,760
bad experience I've had, the 
amount of men in my community 

1074
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,960
who thanked me for this book. 
And that's how we change 

1075
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,520
society. 
That is why my passion is 

1076
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,200
community development, because 
you know, the businessmen who 

1077
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,960
supported my campaign for honour
her the bit, the women who show 

1078
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,640
up for me, you know, the 
campaigns that I've had election

1079
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,680
campaigns who say yes, because 
that isn't a reflection of all 

1080
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,080
my community. 
And that's what I want to share 

1081
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:15,720
with the world. 
I want to share with the world 

1082
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,720
for the for yes, there's bad, 
but there's not a community that

1083
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:21,880
doesn't have bad, but there is 
beauty in belonging. 

1084
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,240
There is beauty in my culture. 
There is beauty in our in our 

1085
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,280
clothing, in our food. 
We're Curry capital of the UK. 

1086
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,880
We've got, you know, where, 
where Bradford is, the House of 

1087
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:32,880
the Brunt, you know, the birth 
place of the Bronte. 

1088
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,120
There is so much to celebrate 
and yet we get bogged down with,

1089
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,560
OK, this is what we need to 
change. 

1090
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,720
Yes, but what is it about 
society that we need to 

1091
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:44,720
celebrate? 
Look, look, I'm very, very 

1092
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:46,880
clear. 
I have, I am, you know, so 

1093
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,640
patriotic to Britain. 
Had I been in Pakistan, do you 

1094
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,960
think I'd been made it to an MP?
I wouldn't, no chance. 

1095
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,760
I wouldn't have ever had these 
opportunities. 

1096
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,360
So how do we celebrate the best 
of Britain? 

1097
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,360
How, how do I, how do I give 
back to my country and my 

1098
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,680
community? 
Because for all its faults, that

1099
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,480
community made me. 
Bradford made me. 

1100
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,800
Bradford hugs me, supports me, 
holds me. 

1101
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,520
You know it it. 
With any community comes a good 

1102
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,800
the bad, the ugly and the 
absolute marvellous. 

1103
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,760
Why not celebrate it? 
The other issue I want to talk 

1104
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:24,440
to you about is, is the whole 
question around anti-Semitism 

1105
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:31,120
attacks on the Jewish community 
that are very current and, and 

1106
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,960
the role of, you know, of, of 
imams and community astutes 

1107
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,440
there as well. 
Because in, in the, in the wake 

1108
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,840
of the Golders Green attack, 
we're seeing a sort of a, you 

1109
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,960
know, a renewed call for 
condemnation from Muslim 

1110
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,920
communities, from imams, you 
know, seeking out what's being 

1111
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,520
said about Jews and about 
Israel. 

1112
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,000
What's your view on on all of 
that as well? 

1113
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,400
So the recent attacks in Golders
Green be on ambulances being, 

1114
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,040
being the people that have been 
stabbed. 

1115
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,480
First of all, my my prayers with
victims, families and the 

1116
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,640
community and I, and I'm praying
for the community because when a

1117
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,680
community is under attack, it 
attacks us all. 

1118
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,320
And I'm very, very clear about 
that. 

1119
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,120
And it's really, really 
important. 

1120
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,680
And I think that one of the 
Jewish people that I spoke to 

1121
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,760
said to me not enough is being 
said about saying, and this was 

1122
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,560
a direct conversation I had is 
when you're talking in when 

1123
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,400
you're talking for pro 
Palestine, just to say the Jews 

1124
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,400
are not responsible. 
You know, this collective 

1125
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:38,520
responsibility idea to to tackle
it head on is to say British 

1126
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,920
Jews are not responsible for the
behaviour of Netanyahu. 

1127
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,680
And that I think is and where 
they're they are not, they do 

1128
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,520
not have that responsibility. 
And it's just like Muslims do 

1129
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,320
not have responsibility. 
What what that when attacks 

1130
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,400
happen on from an Islamophobic 
perspective, I think we need to 

1131
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:56,960
do more. 
I think there's, you know, there

1132
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,360
was a cobra meeting. 
I think the Prime Minister was 

1133
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:00,680
right to have that cobra 
meeting. 

1134
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,520
I think communities, Israel and 
Palestine is one of those things

1135
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,880
that always flares up community 
tensions, But that's even more. 

1136
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,800
We need to be braver and come 
together to to have more 

1137
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,560
conversations. 
And it's not, it's more than 

1138
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,200
words, it's about. 
So the Prime Minister called 

1139
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,040
for, I know the government 
called for an, an inquiry, a 

1140
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,120
call for evidence just the day 
that that attack happened in 

1141
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,080
Golders Green and that happened 
in the morning or the afternoon.

1142
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,800
It's obviously the call for the 
evidence went out in the 

1143
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:30,480
morning. 
The attack happened in the 

1144
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,520
afternoon. 
So I don't think there's a 

1145
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,840
shortage of, you know, from the 
government perspective to deal 

1146
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,320
with this. 
I don't think there's, I don't 

1147
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,320
think that there's a shortage of
intention from them. 

1148
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,920
But do you do you think it is 
right? 

1149
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,880
The I I interviewed the 
government's independent review 

1150
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,960
of terrorism. 
He he said we, you know, we need

1151
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,600
to talk about the fact that 
there isn't enough condemnation 

1152
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:57,040
from Muslim communities of these
sorts of attacks. 

1153
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:02,880
And the suspicion is that 
sermons that that criticize 

1154
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:09,280
Israel and the the war in Gaza 
may be contributing in some way 

1155
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:10,920
to hate. 
You know that that's that's the 

1156
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:16,360
view of, you know, a group of 
people who are saying, do you 

1157
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:17,800
believe there is anything in 
that? 

1158
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,840
Well, I think look, but I think 
there has been reports of people

1159
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:26,000
of mosques that where their 
people have spewed anti-Semitism

1160
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,520
and rightfully they should be 
done frantic Semitism. 

1161
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,160
They should be absolutely held 
to account for it. 

1162
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,920
It is illegal. 
It is not OK and it's not OK to 

1163
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,560
be in any community. 
That's absolutely right to do. 

1164
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,200
And I have got you know, you 
know, your your viewers watching

1165
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:41,960
everybody. 
It's it's a common knowledge 

1166
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:43,320
that I was suspended. 
Frantic Semitism. 

1167
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:44,360
I wanted to talk to. 
You about that in a. 

1168
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,160
Moment, but yeah. 
And so I understand because 

1169
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,600
I've, I've understood it because
I did it out of ignorance and 

1170
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,600
I'm very, very clear about that.
And, but there isn't, I, I don't

1171
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,680
think so. 
The idea that the whole of a 

1172
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:00,160
Muslim community is, is anti, 
you know, is, is not condemning 

1173
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,920
enough. 
We, we, we condemn, I can 

1174
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,120
promise you, be at the MCB, be 
at the local mosque, be at 

1175
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,080
every, you know, various 
condemnation. 

1176
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,040
What needs to happen is that we 
need to build bridges between 

1177
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:13,720
communities. 
We need to strengthen those 

1178
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,160
conversations. 
I'm absolutely very, very clear 

1179
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,160
about that. 
Where it happens, we need to 

1180
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,680
stamp it. 
Out Do you think this demand for

1181
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,760
condemnation is right? 
You know, does condemnation 

1182
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,320
achieve anything? 
Well, it does because if you're 

1183
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,240
condemning and you're very, very
clear about, you know, this is, 

1184
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,560
this is not OK. 
It comes back to the early 

1185
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,440
conversation, organising what 
people think is that you're, 

1186
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,560
yeah, you're you're actually 
influencing, aren't you? 

1187
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,120
So when you're saying, you know,
when there's an attack on 2 Jews

1188
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,200
in Golders Green, that's an 
attack on all of us. 

1189
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:43,800
That is an attack on Great 
Britain. 

1190
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,280
It's not. 
It's not just those two people. 

1191
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,400
It's just not. 
And we need to be able to say 

1192
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,040
that. 
Why shouldn't we be saying that?

1193
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,440
So let's talk about your own 
case. 

1194
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:59,040
You were suspended under Jeremy 
Corbyn for anti-Semitism because

1195
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,480
of some social media posts that 
you had liked or retweeted 

1196
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,680
before you were an MP. 
That's what I'm saying. 

1197
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,120
But they were anti-Semitic 
posts, or they were. 

1198
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,920
They were within tropes, you 
know? 

1199
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:17,000
Why? 
Why? 

1200
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:21,280
Why did you tweet them and what 
is it that you learnt was wrong 

1201
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,200
about them? 
So I tweeted them during the 

1202
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:29,280
2014 Gaza war and that's what I 
did and I tweeted them. 

1203
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,800
And what was wrong about them 
was again, it was that 

1204
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,960
collective I responsibility of 
the, I think the words of the 

1205
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:38,880
Jews are rallying. 
That was the words. 

1206
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:42,480
And then there was the idea and 
not understanding the what 

1207
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,360
transportation there. 
One of the tweets was about 

1208
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,960
transporting Israel to America 
and it was Finkenstein, Norman 

1209
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,040
Finkenstein meme. 
It was a humorous meme that he 

1210
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:57,080
from his perspective, but I 
didn't understand the underlying

1211
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:58,880
meaning of that. 
I didn't understand how that 

1212
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,840
would hurt a community. 
So 1. 

1213
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:02,400
So you. 
Thought you were agreeing with 

1214
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,960
the idea. 
It was, no, it was a, it was a 

1215
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,520
meme and it was a, it was a, it 
was a funny meme. 

1216
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,240
I mean, it wasn't a meme that 
was, yes, let's do this. 

1217
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,160
It was a, it was a, it was done 
whichever way it was done at the

1218
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:21,640
time. 
In 2014 when when in 2016, in 

1219
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,360
March 2016, when I was suspended
for anti-Semitism. 

1220
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,920
And I remember the e-mail in the
morning on Monday. 

1221
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,360
I was very, very clear that I 
need to, I need to step back 

1222
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,920
from my position. 
I resigned as PPS from John 

1223
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,880
Mcdonnell's PPS and then the 
first person I met was Mark 

1224
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:41,760
Gardner, who now heads up the 
Community safety trust CST and 

1225
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,880
he explained it to me. 
He literally sat me down in 

1226
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:47,280
Portland house and he said to 
me, he said, this is where this 

1227
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,960
is what anti-Semitism is. 
And I didn't because to me 

1228
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,960
Christian, I'll be straightly I 
my first official engagement as 

1229
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,400
an MP was to my local synagogue.
My the synagogue roost needs 

1230
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,200
repairing and I'm really proud 
of the Muslim community that 

1231
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:01,720
repaired it and raised the funds
for it. 

1232
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,560
In the heart of Manningham did. 
You even know what a trope was. 

1233
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:06,080
No, I didn't. 
I I. 

1234
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:08,480
You were basically uneducated is
the thing, weren't you? 

1235
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:09,880
So. 
Actually, I was literally 

1236
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:11,840
ignorant. 
I was absolutely ignorant to it.

1237
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,760
So I'd been in, I had a really 
good conversation with the late 

1238
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,560
Rudi Lever and I'd been into a 
synagogue and I understood 

1239
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,640
anti-Semitism to be a hatred of 
people. 

1240
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,320
And I'm like, well, I don't hate
you, that's for sure. 

1241
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,360
So how is this anti-Semitic? 
So I had to understand that a 

1242
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:31,160
week before I'd been a cedar 
with Rabbi Janner, Laura Janet 

1243
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,520
Clausner's house. 
And I'd been, you know, so to me

1244
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,000
it was like, well, I don't hate 
Jews. 

1245
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,960
So what, what is this? 
What have I done? 

1246
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,320
And then when Mark, bless him, 
came and I bumped into him a 

1247
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,280
couple of weeks ago, he said to 
me, he said, this is what it is 

1248
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,120
now. 
And then I was like, OK, the 

1249
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,120
penny dropped. 
This is what it is. 

1250
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,440
Then I understood because I 
understood Islamophobia. 

1251
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,840
And then I thought, OK, this is 
the other side of that. 

1252
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:57,120
And once I understood it, I went
to speak to Jews in a, in a 

1253
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,840
synagogue at Leeds and had a 
conversation with them and there

1254
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:04,360
wasn't, I wasn't going to do the
whole, Oh my God, you know, I, I

1255
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,120
got this wrong. 
And in terms of I, I had to be 

1256
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,560
honest about why I got it wrong.
I had to be honest that it was 

1257
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,680
out of ignorance because there 
is ignorance out there because 

1258
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,320
we don't understand that you 
know people. 

1259
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,280
If I if I didn't understand, 
then I suspect other. 

1260
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,120
People it was a different 
approach as well because, you 

1261
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,120
know, other people who've been 
accused of anti-Semitism in 

1262
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,600
similar circumstances, either 
either kind of sort of say it 

1263
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,120
was a mistake and I didn't 
really mean to do it or, or they

1264
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:32,760
sort of defend their, their view
as saying, well, I'm, I'm anti 

1265
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,200
Netanyahu, I'm anti what the 
Israeli government is doing. 

1266
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:37,840
You know, this is not 
anti-Semitism. 

1267
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,160
You, you, you, you haven't tried
to sort of defend it in that 

1268
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:43,440
way. 
You just said yeah, you got it 

1269
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:44,720
wrong. 
I got it wrong. 

1270
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,320
Why would I want How could you 
defend something if you've got 

1271
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:48,560
it wrong and you've got it out 
of ignomance? 

1272
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,160
You can't. 
There is there is no, that 

1273
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:51,840
doesn't stop me being pro 
Palestinian. 

1274
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,160
That doesn't stop me being anti 
Netanyahu. 

1275
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:57,040
It doesn't stop me. 
This isn't I'm not that's there.

1276
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,560
What is here is I is my word to 
hurt a community. 

1277
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:02,920
I'm sorry, but I have to take 
responsibility for that. 

1278
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,200
The The other conversation 
that's going on in the wake of 

1279
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:10,360
these attacks though is coming 
back to the idea of whether pro 

1280
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:14,480
Palestinian protests should be 
banned because of anti-Semitism 

1281
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:18,280
that takes place within them. 
What is your view of that? 

1282
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,760
So the anti-Semitism, so we have
a right to protest and I do. 

1283
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,600
I will always defend that right 
to protest for anybody, be it 

1284
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:29,000
Palestine, be it activism for 
climate change, whatever that is

1285
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:33,080
right. 
But what I was also say is there

1286
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,840
is no room for anti-Semitism 
anywhere. 

1287
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:37,880
Absolutely not. 
So I do you. 

1288
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:39,280
Accept there is on those 
marches. 

1289
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,440
There there were there were me. 
There was posters that were put 

1290
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,280
up that were horrific and the 
police rightfully arrest people 

1291
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,720
and the police rightfully throw 
the force, throw the book at 

1292
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:49,360
them. 
And that can't happen and it 

1293
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:52,240
shouldn't happen, you know, and 
that's so if you're but that 

1294
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:54,760
equally does not mean to say 
people should not be protesting.

1295
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,520
People feel, you know, I nearly 
lost my election. 

1296
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,280
I've won by 707 votes because 
people were angry with the 

1297
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:03,880
Labour Party's response and I 
was angry with the Labour 

1298
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,240
Party's response. 
You know, I resigned my position

1299
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,520
for the ceasefire on Gaza on the
17th of November. 

1300
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:12,520
You know, I was equally upset 
with my party for their 

1301
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,520
position, you know, so my party 
eventually got to the right 

1302
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:17,520
position, but it wasn't at the 
time. 

1303
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,240
And I had to make a choice that 
was a red line for me, you know.

1304
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,480
So it's not that I don't have my
red lines. 

1305
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:26,080
It's not that I would, you know,
I can protest using Parliament 

1306
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,120
and using questions and asking 
questions and that's where I 

1307
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:30,920
would. 
But if I wasn't, would I be? 

1308
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,000
I'd protest and of course I'd 
protest What, you know, I am 

1309
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,160
protesting. 
I am protesting against what is 

1310
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,240
happening in Palestine. 
I am protesting. 

1311
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,160
I, I, you know, I can't, I can't
divorce myself. 

1312
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,400
And my emotional response to 
when I see children on my 

1313
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,200
screen. 
And you know, I remember the 

1314
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,760
first time when I learned about 
Palestine, it was it was 

1315
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,840
literally a guy holding up his 
child with his with the upper 

1316
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,760
half of his body saying to the 
world, help me, you know, how 

1317
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,960
can I, I cannot, I can't. 
And equally, equally you, there 

1318
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,160
is no way you can't condemn what
happened on October the 7th. 

1319
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,080
You can't, you can't then look 
at people who have lost their 

1320
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,040
loved ones. 
That's not peace. 

1321
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,080
You can't be a bit pregnant. 
You've got to be pregnant or 

1322
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,600
you're not pregnant. 
You know, you can't be part 

1323
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,200
pregnant. 
You can't then say think OK what

1324
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:20,280
is happening here is wrong, but 
what happened here wasn't wrong.

1325
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,440
I mean, it has ultimately 
affected your career, hasn't it?

1326
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,520
Your political career, your 
your, your view on Gaza. 

1327
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,120
I, I don't know, I think it's, 
it's shaped my career. 

1328
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,160
It's definitely shaped my career
from where I'm standing, but I 

1329
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,000
don't think it's affected me, if
anything, when. 

1330
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:37,480
You resigned from the 
government. 

1331
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,400
Yeah, I resigned from the 
government, but that yes, or in 

1332
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,360
that in that context. 
In that sense, you know what I 

1333
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,840
mean is, you know, you're more 
than 10 years into a political 

1334
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:46,480
career, you should be a minister
by now. 

1335
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,960
That so I'm a trade envoy. 
So I'm very, very clear that I 

1336
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:55,200
am representing my British 
business outside and advocating 

1337
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,080
for it in Indonesia and the 
ASEAN, which is a huge block of 

1338
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,960
10 countries. 
So I'm not, I don't think it's 

1339
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,400
and there are other reasons why 
I couldn't do what, you know, be

1340
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,880
that minister or have an office.
But there are other reasons I 

1341
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:08,600
really can't go into right now. 
Right. 

1342
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:15,400
It's an amazing journey really. 
I mean to think of, you know, a 

1343
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:20,240
six year old poor girl in in 
Bradford, abandoned by her dad, 

1344
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:26,680
sent to Pakistan and now 
parliamentarian without a formal

1345
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,880
education. 
Is is your story a hopeful one 

1346
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,760
about what can be achieved or, 
or is it are you the exception 

1347
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:39,840
that proves the rule around how 
people really get on in life? 

1348
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:42,680
I think this is it's all of 
those things. 

1349
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:45,520
I'm exception to a rule to be 
where I am, but we need to make 

1350
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,400
that change and that's because 
of MyHeritage, my ethnicity, my 

1351
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,000
gender, etcetera. 
So that's one thing, but I think

1352
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,440
ultimately this is not my book, 
is not a misery memoir. 

1353
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,600
I am one of the most blessed 
people you will ever meet. 

1354
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,640
I am sat here in a studio in 
central London having this 

1355
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,320
conversation with you. 
How does a girl like me get to 

1356
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,880
be in a place like this, right, 
if it's not for the blessing? 

1357
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:10,000
I found my anchor, my resilience
in my faith. 

1358
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,720
I use my faith to fight the 
patriarchy. 

1359
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:15,960
You know, I, I am very, very 
blessed. 

1360
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:19,120
It is a story of hope. 
It is not a story of misery. 

1361
01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:23,319
It is not a misery memoir. 
It is if that 12 year old can 

1362
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:26,479
today be sat here doing what she
does, then if she can do it, 

1363
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,359
anybody can do it. 
It is literally saying to 

1364
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,000
somebody, that's what I want 
every every young person who 

1365
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,920
picks up or reads this is like, 
well, if she can do it, I can do

1366
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:36,840
it. 
So for me it's hope all the way.

1367
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,760
Nasha, thank you very much 
indeed for sharing your way to 

1368
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:41,200
change the world. 
Thank you. 

1369
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:42,840
Until next time, bye bye.