1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,960 The story of what really happened to her is horrific and 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,640 deserves to be told and absolutely matters. 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,720 And the story of what happened to me was horrific and deserves 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:12,480 to be told and absolutely matters. 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:18,560 And I I absolutely deny any idea that there is some 0 sum 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,080 relationship between the two. I've had people reach out to me 7 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:26,480 and say that my baby should be murdered so that I know what it 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,360 feels like to be Meredith's family, but I do not feel like I 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,920 or my daughter need to apologize for existing. 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,080 One thing that I do wonder is if it's because I'm a woman and 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:46,040 because as a woman, I'm expected to disappear. 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,120 Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,640 I'm Krishna Guru Murthy, and this is the podcast where we 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,240 talk to extraordinary people about the big ideas in their 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,680 lives and the events that have helped shape them. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,440 My guest today is Amanda Knox, who became internationally 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,760 famous after the murder in 2007 of the British student Meredith 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,680 Kercher in Perugia, Italy. Because Amanda was accused and 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,360 convicted of Meredith's murder and then ultimately acquitted in 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,440 2015 after years of legal twists and turns, she has since written 21 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,280 and spoken extensively about her experience and has advocated for 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,280 others who may have been falsely imprisoned. 23 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,600 Her latest documentary, Mouth of the Wolf, sees her return to 24 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,200 Perugia, where she spent four years in prison, and confront 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,080 the prosecutor who pursued her relentlessly to try to seek 26 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,920 closure. She's also a podcaster now, and 27 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,640 her latest series is about the case of Lucy Letbe, the nurse 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,680 convicted of murdering babies in her care. 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,800 And we'll get to all of that in due course, but we'd like to 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,320 begin this podcast with a big question, which is if you could 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,480 change the world in any way, how would you change it? 32 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:03,720 I think I would change it so that we celebrated people when 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,080 they admitted that they were wrong. 34 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,880 Explain why. Well, I think that's just around 35 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,240 the world. Culturally there and socially we 36 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,280 people are afraid to admit when they are wrong and they are 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,160 incent like incentivized both consciously and unconsciously to 38 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,200 deny any kind of evidence that would suggest that anything that 39 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,280 they have staked like staked a claim to is they would just it's 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,880 we push away the evidence that suggests that we are wrong do. 41 00:02:35,920 --> 00:02:38,200 You think that's what happened with your the prosecutor in your 42 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,640 case and why he didn't change his mind sooner? 43 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:43,000 Yes. And I think that that's actually 44 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,800 one of the one of the sources of conflict in in our world in the 45 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,120 broader sense is that we are. So we invest ourselves so much 46 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,640 in what we, what we claim about the world and we're afraid to 47 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:58,000 take any back step because we're afraid of being punished, We're 48 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,120 afraid of being ostracized. And so I'm imagining a world in 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,200 which instead of someone being pushed away or ostracized or 50 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,200 punished for admitting that they are wrong in light of new 51 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,440 evidence, instead a world where we embrace someone even more and 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,120 celebrate them even more and reward them for being willing to 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,080 change their mind in light of new evidence. 54 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,200 So, So what? What should we say about Mouth 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:24,360 of the Wolf, the documentary? Do you? 56 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,520 Do you want to explain? You know the idea if you like, 57 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,720 directed by your husband. Yeah, yeah, we can blame. 58 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,560 Him over several. Years, yes. 59 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,400 So the the documentary itself, Mouth of the Wolf is my 60 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,560 husband's doing. He documented my journeys back 61 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,680 to Italy. So the thing I can take credit 62 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,040 for is the choice to go back to Italy. 63 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,240 I was struggling in the aftermath of everything that 64 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:57,160 happened to me in Italy to reclaim my identity, reclaim my 65 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,600 reputation. But also I was struggling with 66 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,240 the this haunting question of why? 67 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,720 Like, why did this happen to me? Why did my prosecutor take one 68 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,800 look at me and think, oh, there's my rapist and murderer? 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,000 And when the actual evidence came to light that it was this 70 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,320 local burglar who had his DNA all over the crime scene, he had 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:18,839 a history of breaking and entering. 72 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,280 Why he didn't admit that he was wrong and just pursue the truth 73 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:26,880 as opposed to pursue the case that he had already pre 74 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,120 constructed. And so I, I was struggling with 75 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,880 that question because a lot of people around me were telling 76 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,760 me, well, it's because he's evil. 77 00:04:34,840 --> 00:04:36,440 He doesn't care what the truth is. 78 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,400 And that always struck me as wrong that that was 79 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,520 oversimplify. That was a very black and white 80 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,800 explanation. I wanted the truth. 81 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,360 And so ultimately, what I did as I reached out to him to ask, and 82 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:56,640 I had this little like idea this, this crazy optimistic hope 83 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,880 that if I could just meet with this person outside of this 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,520 adversarial system, outside of this very judgmental culture in 85 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:12,480 a space where we could just see each other as real people, he 86 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,280 must realize that I'm not the person that he would he thought 87 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:17,920 he was prosecuting. But why? 88 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,320 Why did it matter to you so much what he thought? 89 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,440 Why? Why didn't you just see him as 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,200 an official who was doing his job, who was pursuing the 91 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:27,720 evidence and seeing where it took? 92 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,000 It wasn't personal for him. It was professional, but it 93 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,040 seems to matter massively. Of course, of course it was 94 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,080 massively personal for you and it was your life. 95 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,480 Yeah, but but what's really interesting, I think in the 96 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,920 documentary is, is it seems to be so emotionally important to 97 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,080 you. Yeah. 98 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:50,960 What he thinks. Yeah, I mean, he in a way, he 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:56,240 stands in for all the people, all the people he convinced of 100 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,920 his story that continue to have an impact in my life. 101 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,280 I still feel like every day, you know, 18 years later, I'm 102 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:09,680 proving my innocence every day. And a lot of wrongfully 103 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,000 convicted people feel that same way, that the stigma of the 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,280 wrongful accusation still sticks to them. 105 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,400 But I think beyond that, it's about how do we exist in a world 106 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,320 where the whole world can turn against you for seemingly 107 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,360 nothing? And I feel like if I'm going to 108 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,440 exist in the world and have faith in our institutions and 109 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,080 have faith in our society, I personally needed to understand 110 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,240 how this man came to view me in this way and had such an outsize 111 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,120 impact on my life. When you say the world turned 112 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,880 against you for seemingly nothing, you mean because you 113 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,320 were acquitted. Yes, I mean the. 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,600 The the world turned against you because you were portrayed in 115 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,960 court in the media, yes, as this monster, yes. 116 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,800 Who was? But on the basis of wild 117 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,320 speculation is what I mean. But but that that's why the 118 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,680 world turned against you. What I mean, it wasn't, it 119 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,240 wasn't. For nothing, Yes, yes, but no. 120 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,680 Of course, obviously someone raped and murdered my roommate. 121 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:11,680 There was a very serious crime that very much was committed, 122 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,840 right? And so like, the pursuit of 123 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,240 truth in that case, however, was completely lost in the pursuit 124 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,960 of this scandalous story. Can you, can you talk in sort of 125 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,840 bigger terms then about your whole approach to your life 126 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,480 afterwards, which has involved a couple of documentaries now, a 127 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,120 drama series, your memoir? You know, you have very much 128 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,360 taken ownership of your own story, having had it told by the 129 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:39,760 courts and the media. Yeah. 130 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,080 Now a lot of people find this difficult to understand that 131 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,400 they say, well, what? Why don't you just get on with 132 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,360 your life the way you're Co accused? 133 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,960 Rafael, did you know, try and leave it behind? 134 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Could you, can you explain, you know, what, what your whole 135 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,680 approach has been to why it's been so important to retell your 136 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,800 story, your way in your words and to keep doing so? 137 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,760 Yeah, well, it was stolen from me. 138 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:14,480 My identity, my story, my past, my present and my future was 139 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,440 stolen from me, and no one was handing it back. 140 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:27,360 So I had to take it back. And I think that a lot of people 141 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:33,240 who have been wronged, who have felt like they haven't had a say 142 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:38,880 in their, their legacy and, and who they are, who how they exist 143 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,799 amongst people in the world, like that's a devastating 144 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,040 existential reality. There's actually a psychological 145 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,520 term for it, for that crisis, that that agony. 146 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,120 And it's called narrative foreclosure. 147 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,120 The feeling that you don't, you don't, you're not even, you're 148 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,560 not the author of your own story. 149 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,360 You're not even the protagonist. You're just a villain or a 150 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:06,120 victim in someone else's tale. And I was not satisfied to let 151 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,680 that be my fate. Do you feel your life was ruined 152 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,400 by this? I was a 20 year old girl who 153 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,600 went from anonymous to one of the most vilified and slut 154 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,720 shamed people on the planet. Yes. 155 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,280 And, and is that still how you feel? 156 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,840 You know, do you still feel now there's a there's a moment in 157 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,120 the documentary where you talk about a part of you dying in 158 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,760 Perugia. The girl you were. 159 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,120 Yeah. The girl you might have been. 160 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,960 Yeah. Do you still feel now that your 161 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:43,960 life has been ruined by this? I feel that I have worked very, 162 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,560 very hard to make the most and the best out of a really 163 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,760 horrific set of cards that was placed before me in ways that I 164 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,480 was absolutely unprepared to handle. 165 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,680 And I've been really lucky to have the support of my family 166 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:06,560 and my communities, strangers who came out of the woodwork to 167 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,400 to support all of us as we pursued truth and justice in 168 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,560 this case. But it is not an easy. 169 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,800 And I, like I said, I still carry the stigma of someone 170 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,280 else's criminal actions on my own shoulders because a lot of 171 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,640 people out there don't even know the name of the person who 172 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,400 actually raped and murdered Meredith Kercher. 173 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,960 They associate that crime with me, something that I had nothing 174 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,200 to do with. I'm known for something that I 175 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,560 didn't do. And the prospect of being known 176 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:48,960 for something that I will do is a difficult prospect. 177 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,880 I don't know if I'm ever going to accomplish anything that will 178 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,560 come to define me more than this thing that I didn't do. 179 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,480 What do you say to people who who say, well, you know, you 180 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,960 present yourself as a victim and you, there's no doubt you were a 181 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,480 victim of a miscarriage of justice and it had a horrific 182 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,360 impact on your life. The original victim, of course, 183 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:14,880 was Meredith. I'm actually, it's, it's always 184 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:20,120 been very, very difficult for you to know how to feel about 185 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,360 Meredith as the victim of this crime because you, you didn't 186 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,000 know her that well, did you, at the time. 187 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,240 I mean, how long had you known her when the girl happened? 188 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,760 We had been living together for like 5 weeks. 189 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,120 So yeah, I didn't know her very well, but she was my roommate. 190 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,840 She was my friend. Like, have you ever studied 191 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,000 abroad? No. 192 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,720 OK, well, when you're when you're a young person who's in a 193 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:55,320 new place, meeting all new people all at once, those those 194 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:02,120 relationships become meaningful. Like she was, she was of the 195 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,320 people that I was living with, she was the one who was most 196 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,280 like me. She would I, you know, I was 197 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,520 living with three other roommates, two of whom were 198 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,600 Italians who were older than us, who had been friends for a long 199 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,280 time. And then it's me and Meredith, 200 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,600 the new girls in the house. And she was a year older than 201 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,000 me. She was also studying abroad. 202 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,880 She was also interested in journalism and writing. 203 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,760 And so we really had a lot in common. 204 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,280 We liked to dance. We like to eat pizza. 205 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,440 So we would we would hang out with each other. 206 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:36,040 So sure, I didn't know her for that long, but that doesn't mean 207 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,360 that what happened to her didn't greatly disturb me, didn't shock 208 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,160 me, or isn't something that I think about every day. 209 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,280 Like what happened to her could have happened to me. 210 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:51,840 And it's just a fluke that I happened to meet my boyfriend 211 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,680 five days before this crime occurred and that I happened to 212 00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:57,840 be sleeping over at his house when it happened. 213 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,240 Like I, when I think about Meredith, I mean, this is a 214 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,280 person who had her whole life ahead of her, just like me. 215 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,800 And so I relate to her as this sort of like other side of the 216 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,720 coin. And that fate flipped a coin and 217 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,240 and it landed heads and tails and I just happened to land 218 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,960 heads and her tails and and what happened to her could have 219 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,680 easily happened to me. And so I mean, in many ways, I 220 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:36,560 do think of myself as the lucky one of the two of us, but that 221 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,120 doesn't mean that our victimhoods are in somehow 222 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,880 competition with each other. They're in conversation with 223 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,840 each other because. I mean, the way the way you 224 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,200 describe it, they are sort of inextorably linked, you know, 225 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,720 flip sides of the same coin. I mean, is there any way in 226 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:04,440 which her her death, her murder is, is a is a ghastly outrage on 227 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,280 its own separate to you? Yeah. 228 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,640 Which hasn't, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. 229 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,640 The story of what really happened to her is horrific and 230 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,280 deserves to be told and absolutely matters. 231 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,360 And the story of what happened to me was horrific and deserves 232 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,120 to be told and absolutely matters. 233 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:29,200 And I I absolutely deny any idea that there is some 0 sum 234 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,840 relationship between the two. I mean, the tabloid press is 235 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,720 sort of an absolutely fundamental part of what 236 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,960 happened to you, the way you were portrayed. 237 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,400 And it never stops. You know, today there is another 238 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,160 story about how you're cashing in on this terrible thing that 239 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,920 happened. How, how do you deal with that? 240 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,200 How do you process? Do you ignore it? 241 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:56,040 Do you? What do you? 242 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:04,760 Does it still hurt? I don't like to give it oxygen 243 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,640 by even dating it as worthy of consideration because frankly, 244 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,440 you do not hear that kind of allegation towards any other 245 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,400 wrongly convicted person. Other wrongly convicted people 246 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,880 tell their stories without A at being asked to apologize for it 247 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,080 because again, it is not at the expense of the original victims 248 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,400 of the crime. It's not it's a different story 249 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,400 that deserves to be told in its own right. 250 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:39,920 And so I it is painful to me that people still feel like I 251 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:45,920 have to apologize for existing. I mean, it can I tell you 252 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:55,080 something a little bit personal? It a little bit relates to when 253 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,280 I say that it feels like not only should I apologize for 254 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,480 telling my story, but also it feels like people want me to 255 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:10,200 apologize for existing is when things happen in my life that 256 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,520 are part of just me moving on with my life, like getting 257 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,040 married or having children. I have people reach out to me. 258 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,160 The same kinds of people who say I should apologize for being 259 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:22,840 here or should apologize for telling the story. 260 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,760 Those same kind of people are reaching out telling me, you 261 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,800 know who will never get to have a family to have children, 262 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,520 Meredith, as if I should be ashamed of having a family, 263 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,360 having children. I've had people reach out to me 264 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,720 and say that my baby should be murdered so that I know what it 265 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:49,040 feels like to be Meredith's family and I am not confused 266 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,200 about how cruel and unfair and ridiculous that is. 267 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:01,040 It still hurts, but I do not feel like I or my daughter need 268 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,240 to apologize for existing. Nor do I feel like, again, that 269 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,599 me telling the story of what happened to me, the 270 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:17,079 institutional failures and the journey of coming to terms with 271 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:21,720 trauma and what it takes to reclaim your life after you have 272 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,079 been through something like that. 273 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:29,440 What it really takes. I've had to grow, I've had to 274 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,800 learn, I've had to change over the course of this terrible 275 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,640 thing that happened to me. I do not apologize. 276 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,440 I mean, you're, you're, you're quite right that other victims 277 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,880 of miscarriages of justice are treated very, very differently. 278 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,400 So what? Why do you think your case and 279 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,000 you as an individual are treated the way you are? 280 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Is it because of the salaciousness of the original 281 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,120 construct in the trial? You know that the story they 282 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:05,400 concocted effectively about what had happened, which was sex and 283 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,600 drugs and murder and, you know. Sex and drugs and murder and 284 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,720 other wrongly convicted cases as well. 285 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,560 So I. So why? 286 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,400 Why was? Why is it different in your case 287 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,520 than in your view? Why do you think? 288 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:24,000 Well, I, I think it probably is a combination of those things in 289 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,760 which the, the, the whole framing of the story was part of 290 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,920 a culture I find really distasteful in general, which is 291 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,560 the whole true crime area that people love this stuff and they 292 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:38,960 love the detail detail. And you're part of that world 293 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,920 now, which I wanted to come on to, but, you know, but that I 294 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,400 think it kind of it, it, it was already set as young people, you 295 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,200 know, young, beautiful people in a beautiful part of the world, a 296 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,240 terrible crime involving, you know, some sort of weird sexual 297 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,560 practices and drug taking along the way. 298 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,360 There was so much for people to get into. 299 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,920 But there are a lot of cases like that. 300 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,240 People are unable to kind of just let go of it all. 301 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,320 You know, people hold, they say, well, there must some bits of 302 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,920 that must be right. Some bits of that must be true. 303 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,040 It can't all just be made-up. And so, you know, so, so they 304 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,240 don't forgive perhaps, or they don't, or they think, well, 305 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,440 there's something there that I don't know. 306 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,680 But I mean, what do you think? Doesn't really matter what I 307 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,920 think. I mean, it matters to me what 308 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,240 you think. I'm interested in what you 309 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:28,680 think. I mean I. 310 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,520 Think once, once, once. The story's been framed. 311 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,520 It's very, very difficult to unframe it absolutely. 312 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,160 The point, but the point is also that there are a lot of cases 313 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,960 that are highly scandalous and that even rose to the level of 314 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,480 like incredible coverage. Although I think the difference 315 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,760 in some of those cases is that it is the, the miscarriage of 316 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,360 justice which became the huge story. 317 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,480 You know, these were not necessary. 318 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,960 There are sometimes there was one recently who was wrongly 319 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,800 imprisoned for murder for many, many years, spent spent decades 320 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,440 in jail. That murder itself is not one 321 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,920 that is present in popular culture. 322 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,560 It is the miscarriage of justice that we now know about. 323 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,760 In your case, you know the the the the the the case and the 324 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:15,800 detail was reported in such detail that it is embedded in a 325 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,760 lot of people's memories. Well, are you familiar with the 326 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,880 Central Park 5 case? That might be. 327 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,640 So that's a case the. Donald Trump case. 328 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,040 Yes, the Donald Trump case, the one where he put out an ad, a 329 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,360 full page ad in the paper calling for the death penalty of 330 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,080 these teenage boys. That was a huge scandalous case 331 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,840 that was huge in the headlines and was covered extensively. 332 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,960 You don't see that same kind of treatment towards them once they 333 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,120 are out and telling their story. So what's the difference? 334 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,480 The only thing I, and again, I don't claim to have like the 335 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:58,080 solid knowledge of this, but one thing that I do wonder is if 336 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:04,560 it's because I'm a woman and because as a woman, I'm expected 337 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,520 to disappear. I'm expected to be graceful and 338 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,200 grateful and silent. And instead I stand up for 339 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,440 myself. And I think there is a double 340 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,960 standard in terms of who gets to reclaim their narrative and have 341 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,960 authority over their own story and who doesn't. 342 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,280 Have you done it yet? I think so. 343 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,760 You feel you have. I mean I in a. 344 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,160 Because I don't know what more you could do to do it. 345 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,640 You know, my story is continuing to evolve as I, you know, evolve 346 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,120 as a person and I wrap my mind around everything that's 347 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,920 happened over time. But in terms of like, does the 348 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,200 public understand what really happened or not? 349 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:06,120 That's a huge endeavor that I don't at this point feel I need 350 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,080 to take responsibility for. And so in, in that sense, I feel 351 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,800 like, you know, Beyoncé had her Lemonade album. 352 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,760 I've made my Limoncello album, you know, like I'm just like 353 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,440 I'm, I'm done explaining it to people. 354 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,840 I've had to do, I've had to do the hard work of like 355 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,640 understanding it myself. And I've shared that 356 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,840 understanding with people, and now it's kind of up to people 357 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,640 to, like, figure it out for themselves if they're still 358 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,800 confused, you know? Do you, do you want more than 359 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,760 people just to conclude that you didn't do it? 360 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,560 You know, do you want them to like you as a person as well? 361 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:56,200 Oh, well, I mean in in the way that we all would hope that if 362 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:57,960 we were to meet people, they would like us. 363 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,360 But I'm not. That's really. 364 00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:01,960 Hard. That bit is really hard. 365 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,440 Yeah, I think for public figures. 366 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,840 And I suppose the reason I ask is, I suppose, you know, you you 367 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,600 feel not just wronged, but you feel misunderstood. 368 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:10,920 Yeah. People feel people don't know 369 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:11,960 who you really are. Yeah. 370 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,320 And you want to believe that you're a good person and a nice 371 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,680 person, all those sorts of things. 372 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,440 Yeah. But you are still bombarded on 373 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,040 social media with hate and people who think, oh, well, you 374 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:25,760 know, people still think you did it and all those sorts of 375 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,760 things. And as you say, you know the 376 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,560 sort of the resentment of you speaking I. 377 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,280 Mean look, I don't so how much? Does that matter to you in terms 378 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,520 of, you know, there's a certain group of people who are just 379 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,520 never really going to get who you really are? 380 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,080 I'm not as concerned about them because I don't take that 381 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:46,480 personally per SE. I feel like that says more about 382 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,200 them than it does me. I'm more concerned about is the 383 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,240 impact that I'm having and are in the choices that I'm making 384 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,520 and the work that I do, is it having a positive impact? 385 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,640 And that's what I'm mostly concerned about at this point. 386 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,880 Like I, you know, I'm not trying to like prove myself to you 387 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,160 right now. I'm trying to have a 388 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:14,560 conversation that is valuable and and useful and I'm applying 389 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,360 my own experience to that. But it's ultimately to make a 390 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,680 point, which is the world is a lot more complicated than we 391 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,120 take it for granted. And a lot of times we approach 392 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,480 people and stories through specific lenses that we don't 393 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,480 even realize that have been cast in front of our eyes. 394 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,080 And so a little bit, I'm living to prove that point and, you 395 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,160 know, publicly here to prove that point. 396 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,360 But on the other hand, like, I'm very comfortable with myself and 397 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,760 my little world and my husband and my children and my friends. 398 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,160 Like I'm good. What we see in this documentary 399 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,000 though, is that actually there's a there's a lot of people 400 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,320 affected by these sorts of things and a lot of work that 401 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,240 goes on that you get involved in to some degree. 402 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,720 You know what what, what do you do or how? 403 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,480 How do you try and help other cases and other people? 404 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,240 Wow. Let me count the ways. 405 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,920 So one of the ways is by helping people tell their stories, 406 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,680 right? So I do investigative journalism 407 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,680 to examine the cases and then when I come around to an 408 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,960 understanding of them, I might go on to advocate for certain 409 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,200 cases. My podcast series that's coming 410 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,120 out, Doubt the Case of Lucy, Let Be is a very, very thorough 411 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:36,960 examination of this highly controversial case that was 412 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,960 brought to my attention that I have been working on for the 413 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,160 past two years in order to get it right. 414 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,840 Beyond that, I mean anything from people reaching out to me 415 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,360 who are in the midst of some kind of legal or even like 416 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,680 social ostracization experience. People reach out to me all the 417 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,960 time to say I'm feeling misunderstood, what do I do? 418 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,320 Or I'm in the middle of a legal crisis, what do I do? 419 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,960 Or I've finally gotten out and I want to tell my story. 420 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,080 What do I do? And because I have lived this 421 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,520 life that I have, it's like I've gotten APHD in whatever this is. 422 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,560 And so I can share those insights that I've learned the 423 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,640 hard way with people who are going through it now. 424 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,200 And that can be anything from just recommending like here are 425 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,520 some red flags for if a journalist reach out just to you 426 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,440 and says, oh, we want to do a documentary about your case. 427 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,960 And I say, OK, well here's some very pointed questions to ask 428 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,680 them to like get a vibe check like I'm I can do it, help them 429 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,480 people get a. Vibe. 430 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:57,160 Well, a big one is about timing. So if they tell you you have to 431 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,680 do it like this is your opportunity and you have to do 432 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,200 it now, like say yes now or you're going to lose this 433 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,360 chance. I say walk away because no one 434 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:09,240 should ever. Yeah, it's never true and it's a 435 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,320 lie. And also it's extremely 436 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,000 manipulative towards someone. It's doesn't someone who has 437 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,280 been through this kind of experience of having their story 438 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,400 stolen from the not only are they victimized and have their 439 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,800 freedom stolen from them or say they're a victim of a crime and 440 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,480 somebody like, you know, traumatize them. 441 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,960 Not only are they a person who is dealing with a trauma and 442 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,600 trying to like, heal through the process of telling their story, 443 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,360 they are potentially facing a further trauma of being taken 444 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:42,440 advantage of and exploited by unscrupulous journalists. 445 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,000 And I've had experience with those, and so I know how to weed 446 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,800 them out and to protect people who are otherwise desperately 447 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,760 attempting to heal through this process. 448 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,280 I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, what what people believe in 449 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,200 the criminal justice process, given we live in a world in 450 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,920 which trust in institutions is I. 451 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:03,600 Don't know. That's an all time low. 452 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,320 What? Why do you think that is that 453 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,720 you know, is it? Is it that people want to 454 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,760 believe the worst? Do you think? 455 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:21,840 I mean, I do think that certain kinds of stories hit our 456 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,520 amygdalas and like it's almost unconscious that there's like 457 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,360 certain kinds of stories, the sex, the violence, the like that 458 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:37,240 that like trigger us in a particular way so that we have 459 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:44,400 an automatic emotional response that overrides our rational 460 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,800 ability to to process information. 461 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,760 And I think that media institutions take advantage of 462 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:57,840 that in order to garner our, our attention for money as well as 463 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,640 like social media, like that's all part of the algorithm. 464 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,800 What you know, and this is, I'm not saying anything 465 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,320 revolutionary. People have recognized that 466 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:13,200 outrage is the most, the, the emotion that makes the most 467 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,160 money, right? The most profitable emotion is 468 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,280 outrage. And there are certain things, 469 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,440 there are certain kinds of stories and situations and 470 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,480 people that trigger immediate outrage. 471 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,600 And I think that those kinds of stories attract attention. 472 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,600 But you mentioned something before which I thought was 473 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,640 interesting, that you're, you're very like turned off by those 474 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,360 who are attracted to true crime. And I used to be that way too, 475 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,720 in a sense that like, I don't find that relatable. 476 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,560 I'm not a true crime person. I know it sounds weird. 477 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,920 Amanda Knox isn't a true crime person, but I'm not like, it's 478 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,520 not something that I was interested in. 479 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,760 I was a Harry Potter person. I was not a true crime person, 480 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,240 but then I became the subject of a crazy true Crime Story. 481 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,120 And I I at first felt very adversely like, Oh my God, why 482 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,400 are people just so like get their hooks into these kinds of 483 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,320 things? Why are people so ravenous for 484 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,360 these kinds of stories? That turned me off until I 485 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,560 started meeting and talking to people who are just avid 486 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,600 consumers of true crime. And I think a lot of it is one 487 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,360 that we like to solve puzzles like that's just like a natural 488 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,680 innate part of being a human is we're interested in if there's 489 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,440 little pieces of the puzzle and we can put them together, that's 490 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,400 a very satisfying exercise. But beyond that, there's also, I 491 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,200 think people find satisfaction in thinking that they're helping 492 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,480 people, right? Like but they're not. 493 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,320 Well, they're not, is the truth and, and, and what they're often 494 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,560 doing is causing great distress to the families of the victims. 495 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,640 Sure. And I, but I think that a lot of 496 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,440 people like, for example, there's a really controversial 497 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,680 thing in the US which is called crime con. 498 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,560 It's basically a true crime convention where people, true 499 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,520 crime enthusiasts can go and take pictures of themselves like 500 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,560 laying under a chalk thing on the ground. 501 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,920 It's like it's very sensational. It's the Disneyland of horrific 502 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,760 crimes. And yet a lot of victims 503 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,680 families go to these places because they're seeking truth 504 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,000 and justice and they find that the the law is not equipped for 505 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,600 the task. A lot of the like missing 506 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,720 persons cases are unsolved crimes. 507 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,240 And so these people, the very victims, the most vulnerable 508 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,440 people go to this community because that passion, that 509 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,240 interest that that community has may be the thing that makes or 510 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,400 breaks the case and reveals truth. 511 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,240 How do you do family members? You come to sort of balance or 512 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,640 decide what to do in your own case, given you desperately 513 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,200 wanted to tell your own story and you've explained why. 514 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,040 You also know that that Meredith Kerch's family really didn't 515 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,240 want you to. They don't want you to keep, you 516 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,320 know, talking about it at all. So how do you understand their 517 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,720 feelings and and yet do what you feel you need to do? 518 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:22,400 Well, so I want to clarify one thing is what I've heard from 519 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:28,280 Meredith Kircher's family is that they regret that the truth 520 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,560 of what happened to Meredith got lost in the midst of all the 521 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:37,360 scandal. I've not heard from them that 522 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,760 they believe that I shouldn't be able to tell my story. 523 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,720 And in fact, I remember very, very much during the trial, they 524 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,560 I remember specifically a press conference that they did where 525 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,760 they said we don't want the wrong people to be in prison for 526 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,400 this crime. Obviously they're good people, 527 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,320 they're decent people. I've never had the opportunity 528 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,600 to meet them. But I believe that about them, 529 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,400 the people who say that about them claim that about them is 530 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,320 their their attorney. And so I do not believe him, or 531 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:16,480 I do not I I refuse to take his word for it. 532 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,320 But even. You you reached out to your 533 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,920 prosecutor. Have you reached out to them? 534 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,640 I have reached out to them before and I've not received 535 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,400 response, and I also do not pursue it actively because I 536 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,200 feel differently about them than I do about my prosecutor and 537 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,360 very. Distressing for them as well. 538 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,080 Well, it's very distressing for them, but also they didn't 539 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:42,440 actively vilify me that that wasn't their mistake that was 540 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:43,960 made. That was my prosecutor. 541 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,680 He was the one who made that mistake. 542 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,200 He's the one responsible. And so as his victim, I felt 543 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,760 that I was absolutely, 100% entitled to demand his 544 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,320 attention. I mean, in terms of sort of the 545 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,360 world you're, you're in now, you mentioned the, the new podcast, 546 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,840 which is about Lucy Letbe. I mean, how, how did that come 547 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,200 about? Because this is your first trip 548 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,840 to Britain, Is that right? So you this is not a case that 549 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,000 would have been personally on your radar, I would imagine. 550 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,239 No, it was brought to my. So it was. 551 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:19,080 Brought to you. I mean, how how do you avoid 552 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,840 that sort of being exploitative? You know that somebody, somebody 553 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,239 puts you together with that case and obviously creates an 554 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,760 impression. You know that that this is. 555 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,639 You really hate true crime? Don't. 556 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,560 You. Well, it's not that I hate true 557 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,920 crime, but what I'm saying is Amanda Knox doing Lucy Letbe 558 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,080 obviously says to people this this might also be a massive 559 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,639 miscarriage of justice. It might. 560 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,120 So, but the the pairing itself is a big statement. 561 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,719 Yeah. So, so you've got to be quite 562 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,920 careful with that, haven't you? You know the the cases that 563 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,680 people want to link you with or put you together with as a 564 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,040 presenter. Sure, I mean and. 565 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,880 Given you didn't know the details of that case, how did 566 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,080 you decide to to do it? Well, I didn't immediately 567 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,560 decide to do it when I was brought to my attention years 568 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,240 ago, initially was brought to my attention by people who said 569 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:16,440 that they hadn't seen the kind of coverage of a very like 570 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,160 circumstantial, controversial case of a woman with no history 571 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,280 of violence, no history of mental illness, no motive. 572 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,920 And yet she's cast as this, you know, monster serial killer, 573 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,000 vilified in the press. They hadn't seen that kind of 574 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,880 coverage since my case. And convicted. 575 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,440 And convicted, yeah. Same with me, yeah. 576 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,320 So precisely, that's what I mean. 577 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,760 So you can always say same. That's that. 578 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,680 That happened to me and I was a miscarriage of justice. 579 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,160 Yeah. It doesn't mean the same is true 580 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,760 of her, does it? Absolutely. 581 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,920 And this case is way more complicated than my own in the 582 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,600 sense that there was no confusion about there being a 583 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,720 crime having been committed against my roommate. 584 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:02,400 That was very clear from the beginning in this case. 585 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,040 Actually, Lucy's case is maps more neatly on to how women are 586 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,720 typically wrongly convicted, which is that, you know, over 587 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:15,200 60% of cases of women who are wrong with what in a miscarriage 588 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,360 of justice case is women who are accused of a crime that never 589 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,240 occurred in the 1st place. So in this case, we have a spike 590 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,960 in deaths at a hospital. These are multiple deaths. 591 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,560 So already it's a more complicated case because there's 592 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,120 multiple deaths that need to be accounted for. 593 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,320 But beyond that, these these are very complicated cases of very 594 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,720 sick babies. But do you very common point 595 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,800 then to sort of to, to go into it because I mean, I, I 596 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,880 certainly don't feel qualified to relitigate in a conversation 597 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,520 like this. What, what I know is, you know, 598 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,720 2 attempts at appeal have been rejected. 599 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,640 The Criminal Cases Review Commission are looking at it. 600 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,680 There's more evidence going into it. 601 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,360 Yeah, I was convicted twice too, and it was also wrong. 602 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,320 So I look at this. I do not approach this story as 603 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,760 someone who's pretending to be a medical expert or an expert 604 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,400 instead in statistics or even law. 605 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,360 I'm a person who is invested in the truth, and I understand how 606 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:22,840 narratives that form around criminal cases often blind or 607 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,800 bias us in our ability to discern the truth. 608 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,560 So as I went about investigating this process, I was not 609 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,560 interested in, you know, focusing on the character of 610 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,080 Lucy Letbe. I was focused on what is the 611 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,400 evidence in this case, what does it reveal and what was not 612 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,080 delivered as evidence to the jury when they made their 613 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,200 decision about her guilt. And there it turns out there's a 614 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,560 lot, there's a lot that the police did not take into 615 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,520 consideration that the medical experts that they used did not 616 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,560 take into consideration. And there's a lot of also biased 617 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,080 thinking about things that I do have some knowledge about so. 618 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,360 Have you, have you finished making it now? 619 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:10,440 So we're it. We're or. 620 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,480 Are you still doing it? So I'm actually interviewing 621 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,520 people tomorrow, right? There's going to, so there's. 622 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,840 Have you come to a conclusion? Yes, is what I'm getting asked. 623 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,800 But you know, do you, are you doing this because you think she 624 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,000 has been wrongfully committed? Convicted. 625 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,600 So when I said about working on this podcast, I didn't know. 626 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,000 And over the course of the investigating and producing this 627 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,960 podcast, I've not only been concerned about what I what I 628 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,960 have uncovered, but I've been greatly disturbed by what I've 629 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,800 uncovered. And I do have very strong 630 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,400 feelings about the case. But I also want people to listen 631 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,000 to what I've learned and find out for themselves how they 632 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,280 feel. Yes, I mean, you're, you're not 633 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,920 the only public figure to say things like that. 634 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,400 Obviously there are there are a couple of quite high profile 635 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,280 politicians. We've also waded into it. 636 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:08,320 I mean, did you see this now as your, as your, as your future 637 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,560 that you know, you, you, you will be doing this, you know, 638 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,000 for the foreseeable, you know, looking at cases like, you know, 639 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,720 which may or may not be like yours, but which may or may not 640 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:22,040 be miscarriages of justice. And that that's that is your 641 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,480 life now. You know, it's not, it wasn't my 642 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,280 dream. That's not what I ever imagined 643 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,200 for myself. And of course, like I, I 644 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,880 actually consider myself a, a creative person, somebody who, 645 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,600 you know, that's what I've always, I wanted to translate 646 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,480 Italian poetry when I went off to study abroad, right. 647 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,040 So I have like my creative pursuits. 648 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,080 I, I'm a mother. I'm very interested in that. 649 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:52,040 But what I find time and again is that I'm called upon to help 650 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:57,080 tell these stories in a rational way, in an empathetic way, in a 651 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:02,480 way, because I guess I'm, like I said, I've just learned so much 652 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,360 over the course of my own wrongful conviction and public 653 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:13,440 vilification that. When someone calls me asking for 654 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,800 help, it's hard for me to ignore, especially when so many 655 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,360 people stuck their neck out for me when I was in the midst of 656 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,160 my, you know, horrible experience. 657 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,360 There was no guarantee that just because I was innocent, I was 658 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,160 going to get out and be freed and vindicated, you know, And to 659 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,680 this day, like as you mentioned, to this day, innocent as I may 660 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,920 be, there's still lingering feelings about it. 661 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:46,200 So this matters like people's lives get ruined. 662 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,000 And if I can help in some way, it's really hard for me to say 663 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,160 no. So I don't know. 664 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,040 I just I'm just trying to do the best I can. 665 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,840 And do you think it works that that's the thing, you know, 666 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,520 trying to take control of your own narrative? 667 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,080 I suppose what it can do is just it just kind of make keeps 668 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,240 perpetuating it and it grows and grows. 669 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,240 And especially in the world of social media now, can you ever 670 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,840 actually be in control? Of your own story. 671 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,160 I mean, no, no, that's a huge lesson. 672 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:25,160 It's more like, how do you learn to recognize what you have a say 673 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,360 in and what you don't? And like, really lean into where 674 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:34,120 you have a say. And I think that the biggest 675 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,080 thing that I've had to learn I was to not be ashamed of who I 676 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:47,360 am and what I've been through and to have confidence that what 677 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,360 I have to say does matter and isn't is informed and is, is a 678 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,520 value that those years that I lost, we're not just wasted. 679 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,320 And that's been my process. And that's something that I try 680 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,720 to help other people like. I know people in prison right 681 00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:08,440 now, very likely innocent, very likely not getting out. 682 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,440 And my advice to them is a little bit the same. 683 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,800 What do you have control over? How can you make this life worth 684 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,560 living? That's all we can do. 685 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,680 You you talked in the documentary about wanting 686 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,360 closure and and the return to Italy being about that. 687 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:27,240 Yeah. Did you get it? 688 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,080 Well, that's the thing about closure, right? 689 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,960 Like it's this high in the sky idea and you think. 690 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,760 It doesn't exist either. Yeah. 691 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:41,800 I mean, I think that we just carry these things with us in 692 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,360 new ways over time. I think the thing that I did get 693 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:52,640 out of this journey, rather than closure, was a reclaimed sense 694 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,560 of agency. Like what That, like what I did 695 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,760 actually did matter. Because when you've been in that 696 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,120 experience of like utter helplessness and everything you 697 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,480 say and everything you do seems like it won't matter, that's, 698 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,240 that's a recipe for depression and suicidal ideation, frankly. 699 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:19,440 And so I put my own agency to the test, and I came away 700 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,880 feeling more powerful than I've ever felt in my whole life. 701 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,240 I mean, you still have this last conviction still hanging over 702 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,880 you, which is for the criminal slander, which is about a 703 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,880 statement you gave. You've done your homework, good 704 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,880 for you. Another defendant. 705 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,240 Now, again, you said you would fight that, Trevor. 706 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,560 How are you going to fight that? Are you going to fight that or 707 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,840 do you just have to say, you know what, that's, that's 708 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,320 something I can't do anything about now. 709 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,200 Just, I mean, the European Court of Human Rights has accepted my 710 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,520 appeal and they've even accepted it as an impact case because 711 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,560 never before has the European Court of Human Rights been asked 712 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,480 to revisit the same case. They already ruled in my favor. 713 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,560 They said that my interrogation was illegal and I never should 714 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,200 have been found guilty of that crime. 715 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:12,120 And I'm bringing it back to the European Court of Human Rights 716 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,880 to pursue justice because I never should have been 717 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,960 convicted. And honestly, I never would have 718 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,720 even been accused of murder had I not been put through an 719 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,640 illegal interrogation in the first place. 720 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,200 And so when do you think that will will happen? 721 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,640 We should have a verdict within the year. 722 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,240 Right. And is there another telling of 723 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:31,840 that process in the in the in the world? 724 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,640 Well, it depends. So, oh, you can ask my husband. 725 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,080 I don't do the telling of things. 726 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,960 I just do the things. Good. 727 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,000 And where do you think that will leave you if you win? 728 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,520 Well, it will leave me without a criminal record, which would be 729 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,080 very nice because I have a criminal record. 730 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,840 And recently I went to Japan with my husband hoping to 731 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,480 finally do that honeymoon that we didn't get to do because of 732 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,000 the pandemic. And I was detained at the border 733 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,680 and sent back home because of my criminal record. 734 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,000 So that would be one thing that I would love to fix. 735 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:14,560 Beyond that, I would love to be able to not have anyone out 736 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,760 there claiming that I'm a convicted liar, because I'm not. 737 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:20,920 Amanda Knox, thank you very much indeed. 738 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:22,360 Thank you. Thank you for joining us. 739 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,480 I hope you enjoyed that. If you did, you can watch all of 740 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,240 these interviews on the Channel 4 News YouTube channel. 741 00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:30,760 Until next time, bye bye.