1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,400 We're in a situation in which the violence of the economy has 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,320 reached a very, very obscene peak. 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,680 We have actually 12 people in the world owning more than the 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,440 bottom 4 billion people. We've built it. 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,880 We need to see how the systemic forces trap us and shape us. 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,880 But we're the architect, so there is space for alternatives 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,360 if we build them. How do you actually think change 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,400 would happen? Are you revolutionary? 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,640 Hello, and welcome to Ways to Change the World. 10 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,600 I'm Krishna Gurimurthy, and this is the podcast where we talk to 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,680 extraordinary people about the big ideas in their lives and the 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:38,920 events that have helped shape them. 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,000 My guest this week is an economist who wants us to 14 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,960 rethink the idea that capitalism is simply the natural order of 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,360 things. Clara Matai is an author and 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,000 professor of economics whose work explores how economic ideas 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,000 become tools of power, shaping policy while masking the 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,520 political decisions beneath. Her new book, Escape from 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Capitalism, argues that many of the problems that we see as 20 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,440 inevitable poverty, unemployment, inflation, are 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,800 built into the system and shored up by models and theories 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,080 designed to convince us that there is no alternative. 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,360 Welcome to the podcast. It's such a pleasure. 24 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,760 I mean, how can you escape capitalism? 25 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,080 I mean, we, we, we are all brought up to believe or to 26 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,920 think that it is just the way of the world. 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:30,120 It is human nature to want to accumulate things and wealth and 28 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,120 to have the freedom to choose what you want and what your 29 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,000 destiny is. So the first point is to escape 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,840 the mental trap that naturalizes the system. 31 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,160 That makes us think exactly what you just said, which is that we 32 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,720 have a spontaneous tendency towards this capitalist economy. 33 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,480 What I show in the book is that capitalism is far from 34 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,480 spontaneous. It requires constant violent 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,000 enforcement of those policies of austerity to preserve the system 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,200 in place. So what the state needs to do is 37 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,080 to protect the market by keeping the majority of subordinated to 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,160 the to the market itself and maintaining us in a situation by 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,080 which we have no alternative but to go work for wage and usually 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,360 a very low wage and very precarious conditions so. 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,960 What is capitalism in your terms? 42 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,840 Capitalism is a system based on 2 pillars. 1 is wage labor. 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,280 Exactly the idea that the majority on the planet has no 44 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,280 option but to go sell. It's their capacity to work in 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,440 return for a wage and produce much more value than what they 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,680 actually get in their paycheck and have very little say on how 47 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,520 things are produced and why. And on the other hand, private 48 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,680 investment. So the idea that it's actually 49 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,800 very few that we have basically a society delegated the the 50 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,080 command over what is produced and why. 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,520 So private investment and wage labour are the 2 pillars and of 52 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,880 course the roof is production for profit. 53 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,080 The fact that nothing we have around us would be ever produced 54 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,000 if it weren't for the fact that there's expectations to get more 55 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,640 money from what you started off with. 56 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,600 I mean, are you so, so to what extent are you different from 57 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,760 the anti capitalist protesters who've been around forever, who 58 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,680 are a tiny minority, you know, but you're, you're, you're 59 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,440 you're sort of respectable and at a university and, and, and, 60 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,240 and not hiding your face. So I think right now we're in a 61 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,000 situation in which the violence of the economy has reached a 62 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,640 very, very obscene peak. We know right now that we have 63 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,160 actually 12 people in the world owning more than the bottom 4 64 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,280 billion people. We have soaring poverty, 65 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,640 equality that is extreme, inequality that is extreme. 66 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,960 We know the climate catastrophe, constant wars and and militarism 67 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,760 and genocide. People are suffering. 68 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,200 So actually the point is to say that if we want our basic needs 69 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,840 met, if we want people to even get fed, we have 2 billion 70 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,920 people who are suffering from food insecurity. 71 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,960 If we want these basic needs to be met for everybody, you're an 72 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,960 anti capitalist because the system is not meant to provide 73 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:13,800 for the need. It's meant to provide for 74 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,720 profit. And So what I'm trying to do 75 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,519 here is shift the logic again, propose a different lens through 76 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:22,800 which we can say we can't blame crony capitalism. 77 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,200 We can't blame, you know, excessive greed. 78 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,920 We can't blame the idea that the system is not working as it 79 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,400 should. And This is why we have all the 80 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,560 inequality and the suffering. It's the opposite. 81 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,400 The system is actually working as it's always been structured 82 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,560 to work. And This is why we have such 83 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,800 high accumulation at the top while the majority suffers. 84 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,400 And we know that the reality is that even in Britain, the reason 85 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,000 why we have so much wealth in the the West again very divided. 86 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,040 In the UK one out of three children are in poverty and 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:58,760 since 20/20/14 we have had billionaires grow sixfold. 88 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,360 OK, so while billionaires keep growing, children keep getting 89 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,840 poorer. And what we see is this, even if 90 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:09,480 in the UK the wealth is distributed very unequally, the 91 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,480 reality is that the West is basing its capacity to develop 92 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,120 on this structural underdevelopment of the global 93 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,120 South. And this is very important still 94 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,080 today, when supposedly colonialism is over, we have $65 95 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,320 billion or more every year that flows from the global South, 96 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,760 especially Africa, to Europe and the United States of. 97 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,600 Debt. Because of debt, because of 98 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:38,040 extraction of resources, because of the fact that capital we go, 99 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,760 we invest and we take everything out also in terms of profit. 100 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:48,120 So it's the dependency how development is there because 101 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,840 there is the creation of underdevelopment. 102 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:52,320 We wouldn't. This is the thing. 103 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,720 We're not on an equal path in which we're all growing 104 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,480 progressively and getting better and better. 105 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,240 What you see is actually the fact that those countries that 106 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,440 have developed have developed because the rest was going down 107 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,320 and was underdeveloped. It was structurally destroyed. 108 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,720 And this is what austerity policies are all about. 109 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,320 And austerity is a basic feature of capitalism. 110 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,920 And this is, I guess, what distinguishes my work from other 111 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,400 critical political economy, is to say that austerity is not 112 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,760 irrational. It's irrational for us for the 113 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,920 logic of need, but it's very, very rational for the logic of 114 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:25,840 profit. Why? 115 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,400 Because it keeps us in a subordinate condition. 116 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,440 It keeps us needing to go work for whatever job to pay our 117 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,840 bills and to pay for healthcare and education. 118 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,840 So if you cut social services as the capitalist state does, while 119 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:43,920 financing private investors, de risking, you know, militarizing 120 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,080 the surveillance economy, the protection of the borders, this 121 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,080 is what capitalism needs because it protects the two pillars, 122 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,640 right? You keep wage labour and private 123 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,320 investment in check. So, so you're saying that when 124 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,840 people say austerity is a necessity, in a way they're 125 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,280 right because it is a necessity of the system? 126 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,520 Yes, and this is the point. It is a necessity, but it's not 127 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,440 a natural necessity. So this is the big point is that 128 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,440 it's not a technical fix. You know, austerity is not just 129 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,600 a tool that economists and with their neutral models adopt to 130 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,320 save us all. It's the opposite. 131 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,920 It's the point that economic models, as I show in the book, 132 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,160 are deeply classist in the sense that they depict the problems as 133 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,360 being due to workers misbehaving. 134 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:27,880 This is how inflation is understood. 135 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,440 Why is there inflation? All because the cost of Labor 136 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,120 are too high or because people are consuming too much. 137 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:34,760 This is literally what the model say. 138 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,200 So if the culprits are the workers, the solution needs to 139 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,160 be increasing interest rates so that you create actually harsher 140 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,200 unemployment levels and unemployment. 141 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,120 Guess what is actually important for the system? 142 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,720 We would not have capitalism without a good dosage of 143 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:49,760 unemployment. Why? 144 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,440 Because if the workers did achieve bargaining power, they 145 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,520 wouldn't accept this conditions that allow for profit to keep 146 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,000 accumulating. So this is really important is 147 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,720 to realize that austerity is not neutral, it's political, but 148 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,040 it's also necessary for this economic system. 149 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,080 But I think the empowering element of the conversation is 150 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,880 that capitalism is not spontaneous and has been around 151 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,120 for very little time. Only 0.1% of the time Homo 152 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,520 sapiens has been on the planet have we been under industrial 153 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,520 capitalism. And in this little time, we've 154 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,960 managed to destroy, as we know, our ecology and many people 155 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,320 around. Us Did you mean just post the 156 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:27,640 industrial revolution? Basically yes. 157 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,559 But but even before that, wasn't it essentially a capitalist? 158 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,760 System, yes, definitely it was, you know, capitalism was born in 159 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,559 the UK, so the cradle of capitalism is right here where I 160 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,880 stand today through the enclosure system. 161 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,480 And this is very important. This is a story that economics 162 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,800 never tells you because economics as a discipline is 163 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,160 deeply ahistorical, purposefully to make you think that this is a 164 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,880 natural spontaneous order. The reality is that if you look 165 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,360 at history, our economic system was born through violence. 166 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,400 And what was this violence? It was the the exclusion of 167 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,600 people from the land. The land was the basic means of 168 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,200 subsistence in which people could reproduce themselves 169 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,080 autonomously from respect to the market. 170 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,680 Once you eliminate the self-sufficiency, then people 171 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,240 become market dependence and dependent. 172 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:21,360 And that's in a way necessarily have to accept going to work for 173 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,040 whatever situation they can find. 174 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:30,040 What wasn't that a product of natural human nature to acquire 175 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,560 and to exercise power over others. 176 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,560 I don't think so. If you look at all the 177 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:37,680 indigenous cultures in many places in the world, you know, 178 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:41,040 I'm in Oklahoma right now. This was the reservation land 179 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,400 after the indigenous people had been kicked out. 180 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:46,800 They had the trails of tears. Many, many died, and they 181 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,920 reached this reservation land and then all the oil was stolen 182 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,280 from the indigenous people. But the indigenous people, the 183 00:09:53,280 --> 00:10:00,440 Cherokee for example, was based on circular horizontal 184 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,560 organization through councils and actually woman had a very, 185 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:07,080 very big role there and it was about caring for the Commons, 186 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,600 caring for nature rather than extracting. 187 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,680 So, you know, indigenous values tell you that actually humanity 188 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,640 is not has no essence for self-interest. 189 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:24,160 This is the adaptation under capitalism, but we can be 190 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,120 different according to what social relations we construct. 191 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,600 In Tulsa, the forum for real economic emancipation. 192 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,240 I now found it very interesting experiment to try to bring back 193 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,080 these different social relation that need to start locally 194 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,840 because it's at the local level that we can associate through 195 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,600 assemblies in which you show how collectively we can think to be 196 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,400 together in a different way and pressure our local and national 197 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:53,480 institutions to do not austerity, but decision making 198 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,240 over the budget and much else. Well, where? 199 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,600 Where does democracy come in? You know, because, because you 200 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,120 know, the defenders of the system will say these are 201 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,480 choices that people have made deliberately through their 202 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,400 democratic rights. Well, I would say that these 203 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,640 choices have been made by a tiny elite since the very beginning 204 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:19,880 and they are choices that by definition require the lack of 205 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,120 economic agency of the majority. So what you see is that 206 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,080 democracy, liberal democracy is really only a superficial 207 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,080 facade. And This is why in my work, 208 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,160 historical work, I also show how in moments in which people 209 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,680 challenge this capital order, liberals and fascists are great 210 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:38,560 allies. And this has been my work on the 211 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,120 post First World War period, as you see that Benito Mussolino, 212 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,440 sorry, Benito Mussolini was adored by the Bank of England 213 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,840 and by Buntagu Norman because he was the right man at a critical 214 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,280 moment to keep workers in check and to avoid post capitalist 215 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,680 experiments. So this is the whole point is 216 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:00,000 that you see that liberal democracy presupposes economic 217 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,880 coercion and when people rise up against economic coercion, 218 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,960 liberals and fascists are best friends to implement austerity. 219 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,080 So so. These are choices that people 220 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,960 are making within a framework of coercion. 221 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,440 Absolutely in in your. In your framing, I mean why 222 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,400 then, when we have seen alternative economic models in 223 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:27,080 the 20th century, have they all gravitated towards capitalism? 224 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:30,720 This is. Why in Russia, why in China, why 225 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,280 in parts of India? Do they all end up like us? 226 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,760 Yes. Well, I don't think it's because 227 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,280 we have the magnetic attraction or a fair system. 228 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,840 It's mostly because we impose our capital order globally, 229 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,960 right? If if 11 reads just the post 230 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,760 Second World War, the golden age period, the United States, we're 231 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,480 actively imposing capitalism everywhere else in the globe, 232 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,200 right? Through militarism, through 233 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:00,280 coups, We have the CIA involved in really taking over during the 234 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,280 Cold War to protect capitalism. So, you know, there's nothing 235 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,840 spontaneous about this. It's about really a struggle, a 236 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,520 political struggle. And the political struggle 237 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,840 happens geopolitically, but also within each country. 238 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,960 And this is very important is that, you know, luckily with 239 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,680 Trump, we've we're seeing what capitalism actually looks like. 240 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,120 And he's revealing the face of the brutality of the United 241 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,120 States. In Tulsa, where I live, people 242 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,720 can't afford anything. People don't have teeth. 243 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,600 People can't afford to actually have a roof over their head. 244 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,640 Many of the people who we organized through the Forum for 245 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,720 Really Economic Emancipation are unhoused, and they barter food 246 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,400 stamps as the only way to actually, like, make a living. 247 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:47,000 It's a situation in which the money exists, but it's really 248 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,600 caught in the hands of very, very, very few philanthropists 249 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,000 that by the way then benefit from lending money to the titty, 250 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,240 lending money to the governments and then get all the interest 251 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,280 back. So and. 252 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,240 And yet some of the poorest people in America are Trump 253 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:04,920 supporters. So how? 254 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:10,200 How have they achieved this hegemony over over people that 255 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,040 have nothing to gain from it? This is why I think my book can 256 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,600 be relevant for people. It's because it's about the 257 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,360 narrative. Again, the way we break free is 258 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,360 first mentally. And what you need to see is that 259 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,120 Trump is thriving on a narrative that has been constructed by 260 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,960 mainstream economists for a long, long time, which tell you 261 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,160 there's nothing unjust about this economy. 262 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,920 If you are at the bottom, it's because you deserve it. 263 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,040 And this is constructed through also mathematics and telling you 264 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,200 that those who are at the top are there because they save, 265 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,520 they behave more rationally, and they are benefiting everyone 266 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,040 else by employing everyone else. And so they should be lucky. 267 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,880 So this methodological individualism, this idea that if 268 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,680 you're poor, it's your fault is spread everywhere. 269 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,800 And people have internalized it so deeply that the only 270 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,600 explanation they have for the fact that they're living not a 271 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,280 human life at the end of the day, because it's dehumanizing, 272 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,760 what you see in the United States today, you blame it on 273 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,520 those who are even weaker than you because those are the ones 274 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,000 who you fear the most because you don't see who's actually 275 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,240 benefiting. You don't see those. 276 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,880 You know, 19 people in the United States, which is the 277 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:22,560 0.00001% of the population, have increased their wealth in the 278 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,080 past two years by almost $2 trillion. 279 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,800 Only 19 people. This is what we're talking about 280 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,440 when we talk about this extreme red. 281 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,880 And these people are not taxed because capital gains are not 282 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,240 taxed. This is part of the austerity 283 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,840 policies I was mentioning. But isn't it the case as well 284 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,560 that when you have very little and when you have great economic 285 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,960 insecurity, you are desperate to hold on to whatever you have? 286 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,000 So. So talking to people about 287 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,040 breaking the system means that they will lose everything is 288 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,240 what they fear in the short term. 289 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,800 I think right now, first of all, many people have very little to 290 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,160 lose at this point in the United States really. 291 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,920 I mean 77% of American workers live paycheck to paycheck. 292 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,800 Half of the homeless population that keeps skyrocketing in the 293 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,960 USA, 108 a 118,000 more homeless people. 294 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:12,680 And this is just the official statistics. 295 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:18,040 In just one year, these people, you know, work, half of the 296 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,640 homeless population actually has a job. 297 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,520 So, you know, working is not enough to secure your survival. 298 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,760 So this is what I'm seeing with the Forum for Real Economic 299 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,520 Emancipation, is that people want to come together with 300 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,360 alternative models, with solidarity based economies, with 301 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,920 mutual aid, with the idea that let's breach market dependence, 302 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,800 Let's take back our relation with nature, with land, with 303 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,120 resources. We need to create this 304 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,760 alternative infrastructure that can actually serve the logic of 305 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,240 need that the governments, both at the local and at the federal 306 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,040 level and also in Europe, can no longer support because our 307 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,480 governments are there to maintain the capital order in 308 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:55,680 place. And the fact that Europe is 309 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,800 militarizing like crazy while people are losing their social 310 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,920 services is not by chance. It's not to be, you know, 311 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,359 attributed to the bad person empowered that moment. 312 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,760 This is the tendency of the system that we, though, have the 313 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,079 power to fight against because the system is US. 314 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,200 And this is the empowering message of the book is to say 315 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,960 we've built it. We need to see how the systemic 316 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,560 forces trap us and shape us. But we're the architect, so 317 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,119 there is space for alternatives if we build them, are we? 318 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:31,040 Also trapped by our education system and the way economics is 319 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,400 framed and taught. Completely. 320 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:39,000 So I'm a professor of economics and I've for years tried to 321 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,680 introduce alternative frameworks in the economics discipline. 322 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,920 They do exist. They're at the margins. 323 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,960 So anyone who teaches, sorry, who studies economics rarely 324 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,960 gets exposed to alternative frameworks. 325 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,880 And in my book, I tried to expose the classical political 326 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,800 economy framework. So it's built on not just my 327 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,680 ideas. This work is built on a 328 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,920 tradition that is very strong. It dates to Adam Smith himself, 329 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,800 the founding father of modern economics. 330 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,440 Well, people talked. About Marx, aren't they? 331 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,560 And that's the only alternative way of looking at the world. 332 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,240 Yes. Well, I think absolutely. 333 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,200 The important point is that, you know, Marx has been demonized in 334 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,080 all ways, but at the end of the day, he was one of the most 335 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,200 important economists ever existed. 336 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,160 Because again, he does not, he did not accept the narrow idea 337 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,920 by which things happen because of individual choices. 338 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,360 Things happen because of systemic forces that had been 339 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,200 built by us. And what Marx says that is very 340 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,320 important and liberating is that capital as wealth as money is 341 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,040 nothing but the surface expression of capital as a 342 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,560 social relation of the fact that we we relate to one another in 343 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,120 production processes that are very anti democratic. 344 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,360 I mean what I mean. Is you say people are not taught 345 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:56,080 any alternatives ever, I'm saying they are taught about 346 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,600 Marxism. Are you saying, are you saying 347 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,720 the way Marxism is taught? Okay, so. 348 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,800 This is important a I think very few people are actually talked 349 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,680 about Marxism. Definitely if you take an econ 350 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,840 class you will not hear that his name or even the word 351 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,840 capitalism. As a matter of fact, you only 352 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,360 hear about markets and individual choices and 353 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,000 maximization. So when you do hear the word 354 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,840 Marx, it's usually attributed to some crazy deterministic way of 355 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,680 seeing the world, which doesn't make any sense because again, 356 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,960 the critique of political economy that Marx brings about 357 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,600 is exactly to say you economists take for granted capitalism. 358 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,160 I as a scholar, a historical minded scholar, will tell you 359 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,600 that capitalism is a specific socio economic system that 360 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,880 requires specific social relations and we can change it 361 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,800 because it's us who have built it. 362 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,240 So are you? A neo Marxist. 363 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,800 I've definitely been inspired by Marxian political economy and I 364 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,720 think this is really important for economic students to go back 365 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,440 to. The original texts does that. 366 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,640 Make it almost impossible for you, given everything you said 367 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,400 to gain traction, no. I think the opposite. 368 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,360 I think right now, historically, we're in a moment in which 369 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,520 people are fed up by the liberal narrative that can't explain the 370 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,880 current crisis of humanity we're living in. 371 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,640 And so Marx. The Marxian tradition is a 372 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,960 tradition that actually speaks to people who consider 373 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,320 themselves on the right or considers themselves, you know, 374 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,480 Trumpist or whatever, because it goes to the real root of the 375 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,000 problems. So in the end, if you want to 376 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,040 get fed, you are an anti capitalist and you will see that 377 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,320 only like a critical really a critical lens, not a superficial 378 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,680 lens, a critical lens that I tried to develop in this book 379 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,960 will be the source for emancipation of your mind and of 380 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,680 your actions. And so I think we are in a 381 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,120 historical moment which people are thirsty for radical 382 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:50,200 explanations that can push us beyond. 383 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,720 And until we try it, we can't, you know, predict. 384 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,240 But right now, what we know is that the current situation is 385 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,440 getting worse and worse as we speak. 386 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,320 What? What I mean is if you are taking 387 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,560 a lot from Marx, does that make you for huge numbers of people, 388 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,120 Public Enemy number one? You know, if you think about how 389 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,520 America responded to communism after the Second World War in 390 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,480 this sort of almost hysterical way, but but but much deeper in 391 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,760 terms of foreign policy and all the rest of it, that is still 392 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,440 deeply ingrained in American psyche. 393 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,080 Yes, and and, and in Europe to some degree as well for 394 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,600 different reasons. But you know, the fall of the 395 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,880 Berlin Wall and all of that. But I think that speaks to the 396 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,880 reason why Marx and analysis is so powerful, because it was so 397 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,720 scary that it need to be purged from academia. 398 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,520 You know, it was it was a political project like academics 399 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,920 were. You know, you can read the the 400 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,720 Powell report. It's all about a project of 401 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,280 purging academia from critical knowledge. 402 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,840 And this is the whole point is that part of it is this 403 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,880 demonization of Marx. But you know, the most 404 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,160 emancipatory tradition, you see the Frankfurt School, Antonio 405 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,200 Gramsci, Rosa Luxembourg, people who were for the liberation of 406 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,040 humankind. So what I do is to say, let's 407 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,400 drop old categories. Let's think about ways 408 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,320 reclaiming words like freedom is a word that should be reclaimed 409 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,440 in the radical tradition. You know, we're not for the 410 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,200 state. The idea that Marx is a status 411 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,800 is absurd. You know, Marx was seeing the 412 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,440 the capitalist state as a problem and as an oppressive 413 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,400 machine. And this is the whole point 414 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,800 actually. Marx was vindicating the idea of 415 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,760 freedom and agency and subjectivity and collective 416 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,880 welfare. And this is the problem is that 417 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,320 if we still are trapped in categories that made sense 418 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,280 during the Cold War, we will never look forward. 419 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,360 So I want to reclaim the word freedom, the word economic 420 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:47,960 democracy, because these are words that I think can connect 421 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,560 people much more. And how do you? 422 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,200 Actually think change would happen? 423 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,240 Are you revolutionary? We. 424 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,480 Are testing alternatives on the ground. 425 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,720 You know, academics love to like preach about general ideas and 426 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,680 never get involved. I think they're culprits, 427 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,880 they're responsible, they're part of the problem. 428 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,640 Even these supposed lefty scholars, they're part of the 429 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,080 problem if they don't engage in academia, even on the left, is 430 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,400 so elitist and so separate from people's problems and people's 431 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,480 ways of thinking that, again, they are responsible. 432 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,560 So what we're trying to do in Tulsa, again, Tulsa is I think 1 433 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,080 chapter of what I hope we'll continue building as a pilot 434 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,040 project that can be reproduced with its own characteristics. 435 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,440 Everywhere else is the idea that knowledge is of the people for 436 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,400 the people coming and stemming from people's participation. 437 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,680 And that's why we do public education. 438 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,120 That is really the first step. And then we organize through an 439 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,960 assembly that is a way for people to try out something 440 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,680 different. Just getting involved. 441 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,920 I mean, I mean, you don't just mean protest movement, do you? 442 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,600 I mean, you know, should they be involved in local government, in 443 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,360 collective so. To give to give you an example, 444 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:02,160 we just had a big event with 400 people, which is a lot for Tulsa 445 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,760 with the mayor sitting there to respond to a conversation about 446 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,360 participatory budgeting. Participatory budgeting is a 447 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:16,080 reality that has been completely excluded from the way we run our 448 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,000 economy because it's dangerous for the status quo. 449 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,520 But it's something that was invented in Brazil, actually, we 450 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,840 should really look at in the 80s. 451 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,800 It's the idea that people can take on responsibilities in 452 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,600 ideating how their money should be spent and voting on it in a 453 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,360 way that actually is much more inclusive. 454 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,600 This is happening in some parts of the world, but this could be, 455 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,240 for example, an instrument to get people to realize that they 456 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,680 can have much more agency. You know, that's the value 457 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,680 workers produce. It's overly taxed because it's 458 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,680 workers that pay taxes, not investors. 459 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,520 OK. And that money that has been 460 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,080 taxed, it's used not for people and their social services, but 461 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,760 again to foment wars in the South of the globe. 462 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,480 So the whole system is completely irrational that we 463 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600 need to completely subvert it. Marx would tell us we live in an 464 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,240 upside down world and he was right, we do live in an upside 465 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,080 down world. So what I'm saying is that we 466 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,800 need to propose these alternatives. 467 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,600 Putting pressure on the local governments is 1 possibility. 468 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,680 So as an institution, as the free, we are now launching a 469 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,520 campaign for participatory budgeting, which is all about 470 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,280 taxing the wealth in, in, in, in town through actually income 471 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,560 taxation of the very rich and at the same time demanding that 472 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,800 this money is not allocated according to the priorities of 473 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,680 the usual suspects, but according to the logic of need. 474 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,400 And this is something that can happen. 475 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,320 It's realistic, it fits even within the constitutional 476 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,880 framework and the current laws. It's just about political will. 477 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:42,320 So. So. 478 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,520 So at the moment you think democracy is the vehicle to 479 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,160 deliver change, even though you think democracy is corrupted and 480 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,360 underpinning, you know, economics as we know it of, of 481 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:55,360 capitalism. So what I would? 482 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,160 Tell you is that I think we need to be more specific of what we 483 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,360 mean by democracy. There's liberal democracy, which 484 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,080 is again, this oligarchic farce by which very few make 485 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,560 decisions. And then we as consumers get to 486 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,040 come vote once in a while and we feel like we're so empowered, 487 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,600 but actually we count nothing. And on the other hand, 488 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,240 participatory democracy, which is based on people actually 489 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,280 having a say on the material conditions that we are building. 490 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,840 So what does this look like? It looks like, you know, 491 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,480 different ways. The time I was reading that I 492 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,880 studied are the factory councils of someone like Antonio Gramsci, 493 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,080 which is about workers actually deciding on how to produce and, 494 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,320 and why now it's about neighborhood councils that exist 495 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,080 in Latin America. They're very strong, for 496 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,080 example, in Tulsa. The idea is that through this 497 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,160 assembly we can start are breaching market dependence, for 498 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,040 example, again organizing groups of people that go back to the 499 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,320 concept of food sovereignty. How do we achieve food 500 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,880 sovereignty in Oklahoma one out of four children suffers hunger 501 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,680 and the only way to get this to stop is if we gain back access 502 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,320 to food and we fight against food deserts and this is one of 503 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,600 the possible ways in which we can have participatory democracy 504 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:05,840 in action. So a political. 505 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,360 Party is not necessarily the vehicle to deliver this. 506 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:12,200 I don't think you. Necessarily need a political 507 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,040 party, especially what parties look like today, especially in a 508 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,840 country like the United States. So, but if you're a scholar of 509 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,440 sort of Gramsci, I mean, how do you how do you achieve that 510 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,240 persuasion of enough people? That's very. 511 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,240 Important. So Gramsci has deeply influenced 512 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,760 my ideas, because Gramsci is the person who came up with the idea 513 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,920 of hegemony, right? It's the idea that capitalism is 514 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,440 strong because what capitalism is able to rule the capitalist 515 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:42,600 elite rules not only by coercion but also by consensus, right? 516 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,800 And this is what hegemony is about. 517 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,480 It's about convincing those who are suffering, but actually the 518 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,920 system is doing their interest. And this is the way you get 519 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,440 people to comply, to like passively accept. 520 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,760 So what we need here is something that goes two ways. 521 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,000 You need a public education that is more critical and historical. 522 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,440 And this is kind of what I tried to do in my book to like, you 523 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,840 know, again, it's not just me, a lot of people are doing it, but 524 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,280 I'm trying to make it accessible in a way that I think a lot of 525 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,360 scholars have lacked interest in doing. 526 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,720 At the same time, public education has to go with 527 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,000 participation and institution building. 528 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,760 This is what Gramsci was doing. He was saying the only knowledge 529 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,760 that actually is interesting knowledge comes from 530 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:24,600 participation and construction of counter hegemonic spaces. 531 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,160 How do you get? The middle class, the people 532 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,400 with some money to buy into this when they only stand to lose. 533 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,360 I don't think they stand to lose. 534 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,680 That's the whole point is to realize that the alliances are 535 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,760 much broader. The middle class is really a 536 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,960 construction that, by the way, now is completely disappearing 537 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,440 because that so-called middle class, you know what matters, 538 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,440 Struggling. Middle class? 539 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,280 Yeah, of course, but there is also a middle class with with 540 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,960 resources. Absolutely. 541 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,640 But the point is that class is not defined by your bank bank 542 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,800 account. It's defined by your social 543 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,800 positioning within the social relations of production. 544 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,240 So the question to ask is where does the majority of your income 545 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,280 come from? Does it come from labour or does 546 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,040 with a paycheck? Or does it come from investment 547 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,400 and capital gains and rent? This is your class positioning. 548 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,320 Then you can be a worker that is better off than other workers. 549 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,720 But the point is that as the system stands, the system is 550 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,200 disintegrating all those social resources that are allowing 551 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,280 those happy workers to still maintain a like a better life. 552 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,600 And these people are being tracked down. 553 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,880 We know the middle class in the United States basically doesn't 554 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,120 exist anymore. And it's a paradox because the 555 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,320 American dream was based on the idea that everyone, if they 556 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120 worked hard enough, they could achieve a car, a refrigerator 557 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,680 and, you know, television. But this is again, and reducing 558 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,200 us to consumers. We can be much more humane if 559 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,280 even people like me, you know, I'm a professor of economics. 560 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,200 I'm not starving in the street. I do pretty well, but I'm still 561 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,360 will gain into humanity if I participate in a collective that 562 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,680 is not just my family and my neighbor, but actually people at 563 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,280 large that come together through assemblies and try to actually 564 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,920 take decisions together. This is how we transform our 565 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,040 humanity into something much more fulfilling. 566 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:11,640 What? What are you? 567 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,320 Asking people to do about their private property, I mean 568 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,240 particularly middle class in America and Britain means 569 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:17,320 slightly different things I think. 570 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,240 But you know, certainly in Britain you have a middle class 571 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,320 that is home owning, property owning, that is their economic 572 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,360 security, that's. Great. 573 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:28,600 Are you saying? They've got to give no. 574 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,560 But this is another myth about Marxism. 575 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,680 Marxism never said that we should get rid of you know of, 576 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,760 but that is their. Capital gain, that's where they 577 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,800 make their wealth, isn't it? Land and property, absolutely. 578 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,880 But the point is that the majority of their income, I 579 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,600 assure you, comes from wages. So again, it, you know, it's not 580 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,040 a binary workers capitalist, but it's, it is important to keep 581 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,240 track of like the the most important situation. 582 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,000 So the idea here is that everyone should be able to have 583 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,680 a roof over their head and afford a roof over their head, 584 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,440 right? And so we need to make sure that 585 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,120 this is a reality for everybody. And we know that this economic 586 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,320 system is actually buying out these people to make us all into 587 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,280 renters that then again, have to spend spend a lot of time to 588 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,720 find out, to try to find a job to able to make that rent. 589 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,880 So the point is that if you're lucky enough to own a house, 590 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,680 that is what you should imagine everyone else being able to 591 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,200 achieve. And by the way, right now, 592 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,280 owning a house is a is a real pain. 593 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,880 If you're a property owner, you know that it's a very 594 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,480 individualistic mindset. There's a plenty of alternative 595 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,320 ideas of collective ownership that are much more empowering 596 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,920 because you don't need to like, worry about, you know, something 597 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,920 breaking or paying the property tax. 598 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,960 It would be a much more massive space in which everyone could 599 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,000 think about the housing as a political project. 600 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,360 And you and you. Clearly think this is a moment 601 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,640 for your ideas because of the extremes that capitalism, 602 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,160 particularly in the West, is throwing up. 603 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,720 Yes, yes. And I do think that the cause of 604 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,880 the liberation of Palestine, I talk about Palestine in the book 605 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,840 by looking at the economic dimension of the subordination 606 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,000 of the Palestinian territories towards Israel and the West and 607 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,440 and showing how that is just a microcosm of the subordination 608 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,520 of the whole global S where the majority of the population lives 609 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,480 of the world, right? Seven out of the 8 billion 610 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,760 actually live in the Global South. 611 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,680 And so how these are moments in which you see that people 612 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,600 standing up for crude injustices, people can wake up 613 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:29,840 and say we need something different. 614 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,680 And I really do think that connecting the struggles and 615 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,560 seeing that it they're all one struggle. 616 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,080 It's a struggle for humanity over profit is a very important. 617 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:39,400 But again. You know, if you go to the 618 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,560 global S development is all based around mimicking, yes? 619 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,680 The. The Western capitalism of the 620 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,040 global N completely. And that's the real problem. 621 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,160 And that's why underdevelopment keeps growing. 622 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,880 And this is the whole point is that economists have this myth. 623 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,120 And it's really interesting because it was this economist 624 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,280 called Walter Rosto who came up with this non communist 625 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,680 manifesto about how to develop countries in the global South. 626 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,120 And the myth is that it's we're all the same, you know, the 627 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,440 United States, Britain and Africa, we're all countries are 628 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,960 the same. They could potentially to all be 629 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,280 on the same development path. It's just about where you are. 630 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,880 They're just behind us, but the path is the same. 631 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,600 The trajectory is universal. This is a lie. 632 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,800 If you ask scholars, critical scholars on dependency theory, 633 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,960 it's the opposite. It's actually the trajectory of 634 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,760 some countries going up are based on other countries going 635 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,360 down. So there will never be a 636 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,120 universal trajectory. And this is really important is 637 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,320 for these countries in the global S to realize that if they 638 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,920 listen to the IMF of the World Bank and open up their markets 639 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,840 and implement more austerity, privatize, deregulate labor, do 640 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,680 the whole recipe that supposedly is going to help them be more 641 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,120 efficient. They are losing as they're doing 642 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,360 that. And that that's why the trouble 643 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,720 is the. Elites running those countries 644 00:33:58,720 --> 00:33:59,960 gain. Exactly. 645 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:01,880 So the debt increases in these countries. 646 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,600 The elites are gaining, both internationally and locally, but 647 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,719 the workers are losing. So, so, so I'm still wondering 648 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:16,719 how how the workers unite you know, in in your in your world 649 00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,800 without a revolution. Aren't you a revolutionary 650 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,719 ultimately? Well. 651 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:27,040 I think revolution is again a word that we've associate with 652 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,159 such negative connotation, right? 653 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:34,320 Blood disaster, again, it shows you how indoctrinated we are 654 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,080 because revolution just means social transformation and 655 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:38,239 change. And if there's blood, it's 656 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,560 usually because their reaction to revolution, right? 657 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,440 There's actually a reaction coming to those at the top who 658 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,400 don't want any social transformation. 659 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,159 So revolution is really actually a positive word because it just 660 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:51,400 means change. It means change. 661 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:57,760 And as humans, we deserve change to fulfill our our full human 662 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:00,400 prosperity. So if you. 663 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,040 Could just change the world now with one fell swoop. 664 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,320 What would you do? I would. 665 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,200 Prioritize the two most important issues right now that 666 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,360 are the physical violence and the killing of people, not just 667 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,960 in Palestine, in Sudan and many other places, and food as a 668 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,840 primary resource. And I would try to organize 669 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,280 these two priorities as society's priorities. 670 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,400 And this is very important because this is potentially 671 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,400 revolutionary and subversive. This is the thing. 672 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,360 If you want people to get fed, you are revolutionary because 673 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,760 the logical profit will never bring you there. 674 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,200 So we need to say as a society, we are intelligent agents. 675 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,920 We can change things. Let's set ourselves basic 676 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,280 priorities. Everyone will agree that people 677 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,400 deserve to have a plate in front of them once a day. 678 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,040 At least. Everyone will agree that 679 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,520 children should not be slaughtered by our drones. 680 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,360 So this is the basic thing. How do we collectively operate 681 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,000 to achieve these goals without being dependent on the logic of 682 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,720 profit? Because currently the idea is 683 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:03,320 that if we depend on profit, then as a by product, people 684 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,040 will get fed. And this is completely 685 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:06,480 irrational. Again, it's upside down. 686 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,000 Let's see how collectively we can have two priorities that are 687 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,200 very basic and people on the right, on the left or whatever 688 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,360 will say it's the, it's just so basic. 689 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,480 It has to like we can't agree. And let's figure out how to do 690 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,920 that. And I what I would say is that 691 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,280 we will need to do this by focusing on use value on the 692 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,240 materiality on food itself rather than on value as 693 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:33,000 abstraction as money. And if we can do this, things 694 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,960 will start to change. And I think we need to start 695 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,440 locally. I think The thing is that we 696 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,720 can't, you know, it's very scary to think in a global context 697 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:44,640 because we feel so disempowered because we feel so little. 698 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,040 The idea is not we start local, but we think global, because if 699 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,800 we have different chapters of these alternative institutions 700 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,320 that are actually devoted to achieving these needs, then 701 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,080 things can change. And I think This is why you can 702 00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,960 collaborate with local institutions and with 703 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:02,000 governments, but you need to pressure them to do things 704 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,880 differently because on their own they'll never do it because 705 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,920 they're listening to the technocrats that have these 706 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,560 economic models that tell them that the problem of the people 707 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,240 rather than the system. Clara Matai, thank you very much 708 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:12,080 indeed. Thank you SO. 709 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,560 Much for having me, Hope you enjoyed. 710 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,760 That you can watch all of these interviews on the Channel 4 News 711 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,320 YouTube channel. Until next time, bye bye.