Today I'll be interviewing Michelle Hackman with the Wall
Street Journal. She's a well known immigration
reporter who studied at Yale, was a writer for the Yale Daily
News and now has worked for Wall Street Journal for almost 10
years. She has such an interesting
history. She was born with a congenital
condition that we'll talk about and it will blow your mind with
the grace with which she navigates the world and her job.
Given this condition that she's dealt with since birth.
We're going to talk about some of the most pivotal pieces she's
written on immigration and one particular one that went viral
for all the right reasons. And of course, we're going to
talk about immigration policy itself.
Let's dive right in on this week's episode of Inside
Thoughts Out Loud. Welcome, Michelle Hackman to
Inside Thoughts Out Loud. I am so excited to have you
here. I have to start this
conversation by first going over to what a remarkable human being
you are. So I want you to tell me, walk
me through your time at Yale and how you ended up with The Wall
Street Journal and then specifically doing pieces on
immigration. I was very lucky to be able to
go to Yale. I, I always knew that I wanted
to be a journalist. Even in high school.
I wrote for my high school paper.
I, I more than even writing for my high school paper.
I think I just had this aspiration of like, you know, I
had these images of myself covering presidential campaigns
and, like, doing what you see reporters do on TV.
And I don't know. I don't know if it was Gilmore
Girls or what it was, but I was like, I have to go write for the
Yale Daily News. Yeah.
I honestly don't know. I mean, I'm sure it would have
been fine had this not worked out.
It's amazing that it did, but I feel like I almost welded into
being so. Yeah.
So I I joined as soon as I got there.
I. And what was your major at you?
Political science. Love that.
OK, yes, I maybe, maybe should have majored in something
different, but we could go back to that.
We're going to, because I have an aspiring reporter,
journalist, young gentleman that's in my car pool that is
obsessed with your work. And so we're going to get there.
But yeah, go ahead. I mean, but when you say what I
like, what did I major in? I mean, I think probably the
honest answer, and I've heard other people say this too, is I,
I majored in the college newspaper.
It's like definitely where I spent the most time, wherever I
could, like, especially the later years of college, instead
of writing normal papers, I would try to write in the style
of like magazine articles so that I could reuse them and
maybe publish them. I did that a few times, but I
started there. I covered all sorts of stuff.
My second year, they gave out beats, and so I was covering
sort of city and state politics in New Haven and Connecticut.
And then I ended up editing that section of the newspaper and
just started doing internships all over, you know, one in
Pittsburgh. And then I got connected with
the Wall Street Journal, which is how I eventually ended up
back there full time. And you said all of this, and I
purposefully didn't lead with this because I wanted you to
tell us all of this and then tell our listeners for those who
may not know you are blind. That's right.
How has that looked for you navigating being a part of the
Yale Daily News and then going into reporting and working for
Wall Street Journal? You know, there, I guess this
was not a lot of precedent for what I did and.
Yeah. Do you know how remarkable you
are? I mean, that's what you're so
humble. I like.
Do you know how amazing you are? Thank you.
Yeah. So I, I was born with a
condition where basically I was born with a non functional left
eye. And when I was 8, you know, my
right eye was somewhat affected too and, and my retina detached
when I was 8. And so they weren't able to fix
it. I lost all the vision in my
right eye too. And I don't know, in retrospect,
it's like if you have to go blind, which I'm not necessarily
here saying that I recommend it, but like if it were to happen to
you, I think it was like a great time.
It was, it was the best possible time.
I was old enough that I kind of knew what things looked like.
I remember colors, for example, you know, I have an idea of I
have a really good visual, like a spatial memory.
I know what some people's faces look like.
But at the same time, I was young enough, you know, when
you're like a really little kid, you can adapt to anything.
Like it's not like you're so old that you're mourning what you
could no longer do. I think you're just, your brain
is so malleable that you grow and, and I and I, you know, got
all these services through school.
I was in a public school, but a really, really good one where
they, they taught me Braille and they gave me these things called
mobility lessons. And I remember like,
specifically at age 15, I think I also was just like, I had this
probably like an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex.
Like I didn't have enough fear. Which is another great thing
about kids in general. Yeah, totally.
I just, I have this vivid memory of going with the mobility
instructor. And they were like, OK, like
we're going to, we're going to take the subway.
And it's not like I knew anything about the subway.
But they were like, you know, if you get lost, just like, you
know, they would, they would walk maybe like 50 feet behind
me. So like not close enough that I
could turn and be like, where am I?
What am I doing? So we went into the city.
They they sort of trailed me, but they were like, if you get
lost or like you don't know where you are, you need to just
find for a stranger and ask for directions and you'll find that
people help you. And I, I remember this because I
was there with one other person who was like, really timid
about, you know, stopping strangers and asking for help.
But I was like, whatever, this is what I got to do.
You know, I really want to get from point A to point B.
And I just, yeah, I think maybe like a lack of fear and a lack
of shame that's weirdly coming very handy with with my
journalism. I, I just think I mean your,
your take on it is so refreshing.
And I also want to talk about it in the context of obviously
current events and watching. I think a lot of young people
navigate the world that come in with a variety of skill sets,
right? And to me, I've always, always,
always believed in the diversity bonus before it became a term
that was keyed, right. I truly believe that diversity
is not just for inclusivity or to make somebody feel better.
Diversity is literally the way we're going to be better at
everything. And to see someone who is
incredibly successful in their career, but has what many look
at as as a difficult disability that they otherwise would have
struggled to get beyond your such an incredible example of
how if we have such programs, if we give people the space to ask
questions, have no shame. You know what I mean?
All the things that you said, then you create these adults who
give back to to the world in such meaningful ways.
Do you feel since you were that 8 year old girl, do you feel
like we've gotten better or worse at doing whatever is
necessary to help people who have variable abilities reach
their highest potential? You know, it's hard for me to
say because I'm just me, but I feel like I do have this
optimism that, you know, it's like the universe is long, but
it bends toward justice. What's that that famous phrase?
I do feel like we've gotten better, you know, we've had more
people in positions, you know, with, with a various backgrounds
and disabilities. And I just found that like, you
know, maybe people at the Wall Street Journal when I got hired,
like, you know, blanked or had questions, but no one shared
them with me, which I find so remarkable.
Like no point was, did any editor stop me and say, like, is
that something you can really do?
Or, you know, I, I think, I mean, it probably helps that I
was sort of entry level and so they were able to give me like
fairly basic stuff to begin with.
But you know, they, they really treated me like anyone else,
which I really appreciated. And I think, you know, over
time, it's funny, I feel like I've been more on the receiving
end of, of learning from diversity than on the giving
end. But I, I really hope that I've
been able to give to colleagues too and sort of teach them
various skills. You know, I, I think one, OK,
one example that comes to mind is early on one of my Co
workers, he was like, when you go on a reporting trip and you
have to describe a scene, how do you do that?
Like he was like, I don't get it.
You can't like look around. And I was like, I don't know.
I just treat it like a reporting question.
I just asked people around me like, what does this room look
like? How would you describe the
furniture? You know, how would you describe
what this person's wearing? And he was like, wow, I'd never
even thought to do that. But see, that's what I'm talking
about. The diversity bonus is you are
now reporting from such a unique capacity and angle that other
people who would use their eyes. But then of course comes your
own unconscious bias, right? So how you would describe
something versus how others and most would argue that data
gathering the opinions of multiple people versus simply
describing what you see. The former is actually
potentially, quote, better reporting, right?
And that would be, I would think a bonus or an an improved way of
reporting that a lot of people maybe don't do because they do
rely on their own eyesight. And yeah, that's something that
we probably don't even think about.
Again, you, you don't all of us obviously walk through life with
with their own biases and and that's normal because we lead
our lives and we have our unique experiences and then we have
shared experiences. But I bet it, like your
colleague who asked this question, I bet it blew their
mind. Oh my gosh, like you, I think
you're about to say it. I never thought to do that.
I just described what I see. I know you had a great you
continue to have a great experience at the Wall Street
Journal. Can you think of a time where
you didn't or where you felt that you weren't, maybe granted
the benefit of the doubt or the ability to have the same success
as a colleague because of the blindness?
And if you have one of those stories, just I'd love to hear
about how you navigated. There are things like, I don't
know if this is necessarily at the hands of anyone else, but I,
you know, I, I feel like I definitely grew up with this
attitude of like, you know, I don't know how I'm going to pull
this off, but I want to. So I'm going to figure out a
way. And that's like really, really
behooved me in a lot of ways. Like.
Who do you credit that to? I have no idea.
Yourself, your parenting, a teacher, the neighborhood you
grew up in. And you're allowed to say
myself, just like I was born about.
Probably, probably all of those things, but I do like, you know,
I had parents who definitely like were always like shook by
some of the ideas I'd come up with that I'd want to do, but
would say yes to them. They're very permissive.
They, you know, we're very, you know, very into education and
into making sure that I had all the sort of tools that I needed
to be a functional adult. Sorry.
I like definitely credit my parents.
I had this amazing teacher in high school who also trying to
think what to even say about who can.
We get a name. Yeah, his name was Mr. Shorn.
He was my high school science teacher.
I worked on a big science, like a big research project with him
through a lot of high school. So we spent a lot of one-on-one
time together and he was really into the idea of me growing up
being a reporter. And he never, I don't know, he
just he thought it was like really, I think he thought it
was well suited to like my interest in politics and my, you
know, I like to talk to people and I like to figure things out.
And I like, I just remember this is so apropos nothing.
I remember one time he was talking to me and he was like,
you know, if you're going to go be a journalist and be traveling
the world all the time, like you need to find a spouse, maybe
with a more stable job. And I was like, that's hilarious
that you're giving a high schooler that advice.
But I think it was like, it was two things.
It was like, you know, one a really good life advice, but 2
was like, oh, I'm going to be traveling the world and like he
sees that and I I want to do that too.
And I don't like. I don't know how that's going to
happen, but I'll figure it out. As someone who also grew up very
confident to the degree of delusion, I mean I continue to
be when I was. Delusional, right?
Yeah. But it has also served me well.
I just, however I choose to reinvent myself, whatever goals
I said, I simply will figure it out along the way.
But I, I credit my parents a lot because they fed into the
delusion they were, they were also saying things like, well,
when you're, when you're that big bad plastic surgeon that you
want to be, think about XY and Z, right?
And when you hear that as a child and somebody that you
respect, that you trust, believes in you, and they say it
with such ease and comfort, I mean, what an incredible
blessing that is. And I, I'm repeating it out loud
because I do get on my on my Instagram page a lot of
questions about parenting and a lot of questions about how do we
raise somebody who's going to be self confident and, and go after
their dreams. And I think my greatest advice
to them is you always have to. You can't just say you can be
whatever you want to be. You have to help them visualize
what that world is going to be like for them.
Because even in high school or as a young child, when you hear
an adult that you respect echo your dreams, in reality, I think
that's incredibly powerful. The thing I was going to say is
like, you know, I come in with that attitude and I think the
one of the things that's been like a little challenging for me
is sort of going into spaces where I'm like, oh, I am really
not well suited for this in a way that like was A Little Dream
crushing. And there's sort of two
examples. And I think it's fine because I
found something that really does suit my like interests and
talent. But you know, for example, did I
wanted to cover Congress? Well, Congress is a bunch of
like old white dudes and the whole game is that you have to
know all their faces. So when you spot one in the
hallway, you can like, chase them and ask them questions.
And I don't know, I came in with that delusion of like, I can do
that. And so I tried a little bit and
I was like, actually, this is like insanely difficult.
And I'm getting in other people's way.
And like, people aren't going to just help me because they need
to get their own quotes. Yeah, Reese Witherspoon put, I
want to say the video went on Instagram, I think 1st, and she
was giving advice in general about people say chase your
dreams, but instead of chasing your dreams, chase what you're
good at and make that your dream was essentially the gist of what
she was trying to say. Did you did you catch that clip?
I didn't. I need to watch.
I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you.
But it was, I don't know how I felt about it when I heard it
because a part of me is like, no, you, you should chase your
dreams and I think make your dreams your skill set, right?
I would flip it around. But I also think that some of
the most successful people their what they choose to do or what
they choose to succeed in is in fact a reflection of their skill
sets. It's like a chicken or egg
argument. Do they make it their skill set
or was it inherently their skill set?
I don't know. I.
Would argue it probably goes a little bit both ways, that you
have to do some experimentation, right?
Yeah. Like, I really wanted to cover
political campaigns, and I begged and begged.
And finally in, like 2019, they allowed me to go, I forget,
like, which Democratic candidate I was going to go cover.
And once I got there, I was like, oh, this sucks.
Like, all you do is just, like, chase the candidate and see if
they'll stop and answer a question.
And I was like, that's really hard for me.
And it's also really uninteresting.
Yeah. So I mean you own a little.
Bit of a dream puncture moment. Yeah, exactly.
But then you figure out something else that's sort of
scratch is a similar itch. Yeah, I mean, I spent most of my
formative years training to be a surgeon, and here I am on social
media and a podcast and all sorts of other things.
So I also am a firm believer. How far did you get?
Well, I'm I'm still a full time practicing reconstructive
surgeon, but I. I Oh my God.
OK, I'll need to sidebar with you about that.
Yeah, but I very much, I was actually talking to my cousin
about this on the drive over. I very much believe in
reinvention as well because I, I, I love medicine.
I love being a surgeon and it's fantastic.
And I think the reason I chose plastic surgery is it's probably
one of the most artistic subspecialties within medicine.
Or you can be artistic and be a scientist.
But I also think it wasn't enough of it didn't cure my
creative itch enough. So when I had the bandwidth and
capacity and time, I was able to then explore these other things.
But it I, when I, when Reese Witherspoon put out that video,
I think overwhelmingly got positive, you know, positive
response from the community. But I felt very torn about it
because I, I definitely am good at being a doctor and I'm good
at being a surgeon and I got the grades, all the things that one
needs to do to become a surgeon, I was inherently good at.
So that was great and I did it and that was great.
But I always wonder if completely left to my own
devices and if I had loved my parents as well, but if I maybe
was born into a different family, would I have gone into
journalism or I don't know the entertainment field or something
reporting, would I? I always think about that my, my
family are immigrants from Iran and they like, are very much
prescribed into these, you know what, what kind of work could
you get coming to America? I always think about my dad,
like, he works in the jewelry business in New York City, but
his interests are really like, you know, in all his free time,
he's always watching the Discovery Channel and Animal
Planet. I was like, if my dad grew up
here, he would have been a scientist.
So he would have been like going on safaris, you know?
No, absolutely. And what an interesting thing to
think about and what a beautiful segue to talk about immigration
actually. But you know, I, I was born in
India, so I am technically a first generation immigrant, but
I, I moved here when I was very, very young and my parents, of
course, immigrants from India. And my dad is an engineer, also
has ajd also has an MBA, also does real estate.
That man is an engineer to the core of his being.
And I think no matter all of the other things he did, he is an
engineer. So I think he did end up exactly
where he wanted to end up. Where he belonged to where he.
Belonged. Yeah, He did it in India and
then he did it in the United States and now he's retired and
manages all of his kids portfolios.
My mother loves medicine. Excellent physician, but very
much as a flare for fashion has a flare for she's this beautiful
woman. She loves religion.
Actually, she's very, very interested in religion, her own
religion, which is Hinduism, but also deeply invested in
Catholicism. And so I always wonder if again,
if my mother grew up here, I don't know where, where would
she be? Would she be like a professor of
theology somewhere? And I, I think it is such an
interesting concept of a sort of need versus want and then also
skill set versus desire. And where does that all fit in
the big picture of your own delusion and manifestation?
It's all very interesting. And I'm grateful that for my
kids, I think the one thing I tell them is whatever you do,
you just have to do it with excellence.
So you're lucky you were what? Literally whatever you want to
be, you can be that, but just do it really, really, really well.
Like put your heart and soul into it.
Lean in, yeah. Exactly.
OK, so you of course are an extremely well known writer and
reporter on immigration for the Wall Street Journal, and I
myself have been loving your pieces.
I think stylistically you very much have, you have a delivery.
How did you get to that stylistically?
Is it specific to being a reporter on immigration?
Did have you always written like that?
How did you find that? It's just, it's so it's like
perfectly punchy. I don't know how else to
describe it. You read it and you're like, oh,
thank you. That's how I feel when I read
your pieces. It's probably years of training
of being at the Wall Street Journal and learning to write
about style. But that's a really good
question. I I've thought a lot about, I
mean, my job as a reporter and especially covering immigration
is, you know, it's, it's, it's an art to an extent, but you
know, it's, I'm not there because people want to read
beautiful sob stories. I'm there because people need
and good information. You know, immigration is
something that is so often boiled down to something really
basic in our culture. But you know, the the process of
immigrating and immigration laws in the country are incredibly
complicated. People always say that like it's
the second most complicated area of law after the tax code.
And I think that's right. It's saying.
Yeah. And so my job is really to write
in this way that is it's like a it's a balancing act and it's
taken me years to work on it where you have to be precise but
also accessible. And so how do you make choices
of how to describe things that are technically accurate but
also not so in the weeds that people don't understand them?
Yeah, which I, again, I think to your comment on how complex
immigration law is, that's a, that's a tall order because the,
even the average, the average American citizen, and definitely
even even if you've pursued higher levels of education, it's
just not a core part of your learning.
You don't know these things about immigration law.
And so you're so heavily dependent on what you read to
then be able to sort of paint the picture of what's going on.
So paint the picture for us of what's going on.
Is that a? That's a big question.
That's a huge question. I mean, how unprecedented is
what's happening right now that. Is a really good question too,
in some ways unprecedented in our modern times.
I'm. So glad you said that because I
was going to say we've been here before, but go ahead, we.
Have we have? I think we're, yeah, we're
hitting this point where God, wow.
Sorry for a Saturday morning, I really should have door dashed
you like a matcha latte before down this road.
Trump has done this thing. It's really, it's really
complicated to sum up in, in a sentence or two because there's
a, a constant back and forth in our culture where he came in
with one of the most restrictive immigration policies that I've,
I've heard a modern candidate ever take on.
You know, he entering the campaign was saying he wanted to
deport 20 million people. And then he was sort of doing
this dance around, do I like people who immigrate legally or
not? And the way I would sum up how
his policy is shaken out. I wrote this story when he first
took office where I said, you know, Trump.
It's not that he hates people who immigrate legally, too.
And although a lot of people who work for him, I think, are
there, it's that he is like trying to take the system.
He's trying to have fewer people immigrate and be choosier about
who they are. He wants them to be better.
And his definition of better is sometimes smarter, often richer,
you know? Yeah.
Do you think Grace plays a card for him?
Do you think he wants traditionally Caucasian
appearing? Like if someone coming from, I
don't know, the UK is, does he view that person differently
than the person coming from Pakistan or India?
Maybe Pakistan's not a great example, but India.
It's interesting, I think Trump himself is a little bit more
complicated than that. He definitely has made
statements that are undeniably racist, like, you know,
describing countries in Africa and the Caribbean is shithole
countries or you know, the comments he made about Somalia
and basically saying like their their country is broken.
We don't want those people. And he obviously is making those
comments about countries with darker complexions with that are
poorer. But I think he's more
financially driven than he is racist.
So I feel like he would take the richer person from India, then
he would the, you know, the poor person from the UK to put, I
mean, that's a very Simply put, I someone's going to take this.
Clip And I totally agree to make fun of me on the Internet.
It's interesting because I think a lot of his advisors are not
there like I think we've in the last couple years have seen this
like explosion in anti Indian racism that I frankly was not
prepared for. You know, girls say so I don't
look out for that. I don't think that's Trump,
though. I think that's like parts of his
movement. Well, if you look at Laura
Loomer, and this was super interesting because she has made
so many frankly racist remarks about Indian people.
And then she went to India and my initial.
Was Dalai Lama did you see? That I did and I was.
So I'm like, how does this lady get to meet the Dalai Lama?
Also, who in India invited Laura Loomer?
Like she should not be allowed in the country based on what
she's said but somebody invited her and that I don't.
I still have to vet whether this was real or if it was like AI
generated but somebody posted what looked like maybe an ex
post of hers or a threads post of hers saying I went to India.
I take it all back, India was amazing.
I loved it. I only spent 90 days here.
I want to come back and visit South India and I was floored.
I still have to vet whether this is actually true.
I will, but it if it is true, I mean, that's incredible that
somebody was able to change Laura Loomer's mind.
But also just the absolute conviction in depth of her anti
Indian racism was so extreme and she got called out by it because
that was another viral clip was the Indian journalist who said,
why are you here? You have said and then read word
for word the things that she said about Indian people, right?
And she's just like uncomfortably sitting there.
And then she finishes her trip, meets the Dalai Lama and then
says, India's a very clean country.
It's a very modern country. In this clip, she says India's
set up, set up to be the next superpower, which I personally
believe. You know what?
I know we're recording. I just got to vet if this is
real. I need to know if she actually
this is important. Yeah, I was like, I don't want
to weigh in just in case. I don't.
I don't know either way. Bloomer loves India Post.
Is it real? Is it real?
Yeah, I think it's true. This is wild to me.
I woke up and saw it this morning.
I was like, what? That's crazy.
No one's saying it's AI in the comments.
I love that that's the thing we have to scream for now I.
Know, I know. I was going to ask you about
that too. AI in the current world of
reporting and journalism. OK Laura Loomer's tweet.
Honestly as someone who has travelled a lot, India is the
best country I have ever travelled to.
It's incredible. I will have been here for 9 days
when I leave and there's still so much to see and do.
My experience has been amazing and India is portrayed
negatively in the media as a place Americans should avoid,
but I realize a lot of that is completely made-up.
The people, food culture and hospitality culture are just
incredible. I have felt safe and comfortable
the entire time that I've been here and India will truly be the
next superpower. This country has incredible
potential and you have to see it for yourself to to understand
because the media only makes it out to be third world.
That couldn't be for further from the truth.
Indian people are the nicest people I've ever met.
I'm very grateful for my time in India.
I've enjoyed it so much. I hope I can come back every
year next time I want to visit South India.
I've tried to do as much as possible these last nine days,
but there's still so much to do. All good things come to an end.
Ready for? The entire country of India in
nine days. Yeah, exactly.
I love India. My misconceptions have been
corrected. I have nothing but nice things
to say. Emoji.
Indian flag. Oh my God.
I think she got a lot of heat from that journalist.
I think it definitely didn't look good.
She was in clearly invited to India.
And at the end of the day, you cannot deny that a lot of Indian
Americans hold very influential positions across major
companies, right? And they also can't deny the net
worth and wealth of the Indian billionaires.
I mean, I feel like that's a cultural phenomenon the Indian
billionaire has become, has taken over our feeds, whether
it's their weddings or their jets or their jewelry, we're all
talking about it. And I think that I, I wonder how
much of this obviously, you know, whether directly paid or
whether a framework to then lose some of the popularity that she
had. Not that I don't know that she
had that much popularity, but whoever her group was, I think
some of those comments were really particularly isolating.
So she's walking it back. But that was so interesting to
me. That was, I still don't think
Laura Loomer should be allowed in India.
But if there were an outcome, I guess this is the best possible
outcome. Maybe the Dalai Lama did his
Dalai Lama things, I don't know. Yeah, it sounds like he he did
something to her. Yeah.
Seriously, too bad that woman needs like a literal exorcism,
but that's OK. So OK, I wanted to talk to you
about Christina. Love a good conversation about
Christina. She to me, has got to be one of
the most vile individuals in politics today because the
absolute inhumanity, right? You know, we talk about
politics, we talk about policy, we talk about he said this, she
said that he believes that, she said that.
And then you talk about actual deaths in ICE detention centers
and you talk about children being ripped away and healthcare
being denied and not having access to clean water, right?
We're talking about the actual violations of human rights that
we're seeing. And she was at the helm of that
and famously got fired very recently.
And I know that you have covered her quite a bit.
And one of the pieces I really want to talk about is the piece
that you put out about. It was about Christy Gnome, but
it wasn't so specifically about the things that all of the
Democrats love to talk about. We love to talk about the
inhumanity and the debts and the really just deeply tragic things
going on. Instead, the article was really
more about her efficacy as a boss, as a leader in in
management. And that article took off.
So tell us about that. Sure.
Yeah. I would say one of the things
that I think about a lot as a as a reporter covering this area,
covering immigration, covering the Trump administration is, is
all that stuff you mentioned, you know, undoubtedly bad,
unprecedented numbers of deaths and ICE detention, you know,
some unjust and deportations, people being deported by
accident because there are so many.
Is that Christiano, or is that going to be anyone that they
install because there's so much pressure on this area to just
sort of go big. So it's interesting that you
asked this question because I, you know, my job is to cover the
Department of Homeland Security. And for almost a year, I've been
hearing from people who work there, all these like horror
stories about Christina. But these people, I mean, people
who work at DHS, who work at ICE, they're, you know, don't
tend to be like bleeding heart liberals.
They, they believe in immigration enforcement.
And what they had to say about her was kind of like, she's
getting in the way of our mission.
And some of it was objectively bad.
I mean, misuse of taxpayer dollars, just absurd stuff.
And, and the most I think that this, the anecdote that was like
most emblematic of anything that she's done was the story we
heard where she took a trip. She flies a Coast Guard plane
because the Coast Guard is under DHS and there was a mechanical
issue with her plane, so they had to switch planes at the last
minute. She gets on the new plane,
realizes her blanket hadn't been moved from one plane to another,
and so she flies. Christie, a grown adult, doesn't
have her blanket. I wonder how she feels about all
the children who are without their blankets and stuffies.
Anyways, go ahead. Flies into a range, her top
advisor who we've also reported she's in a relationship with
Corey Lewandowski. Like goes and berates the pilot
mid flight, fires the pilot for misplacing her blanket, and then
once they land they realize oh shit like we have no way to get
home so they have to reinstate the pilot to fly them home.
What I love about this is that we're seeing more and more this
push to, we can't get the MAGA Republicans to, to think like
the bleeding liberals to have a heart.
They clearly whatever they've decided their value system is
allows for this, these inhumane things to happen in ICE
detention centers, right? So continuing to tell them about
it doesn't seem to help because they've already decided that in
their moral compass, whatever allowances are necessary to
allow this to happen, they've already made peace with it.
So what we then do is get at what they actually are bothered
by, which is getting in the way of their mission, misuse of
money, not being an effective, you know, leader or or manager
in this position. And that is what ends up getting
her fired. It was the misuse of taxpayer
dollars for an ad. It was the impetus to then have
Trump let her go despite all these other things.
And that's what I think is so magnificent about what you
wrote. And sort of, I think the
cultural implications of that is setting the for this is you can
hate her for all the inhumane, inhumane things that have
happened under her watch, but actually she's also just on
paper, bad at her job. She's not doing her job
properly. And so then the article takes
off, everyone's quoting it, everyone's reposting it, and
then boom, you have that congressional hearing where
she's getting questioned by her own people about the misuse of
taxpayer dollars. Next thing you know, she's let
go, right? I mean, I think that.
Crazy few weeks. Crazy few weeks, but kudos to
you because I think one of the most impressive parts of, of a
good or qualities of a, of a good reporter or in journalism
is This is why I couldn't do it, because I'm not impartial.
I'm like a bleeding liberal and I can't take a step back and
take a look at, at these things because I am so bothered by
everything else. But to be able to to have the
interest to know that there's this whole other side of the
story that people aren't really talking about, and then to talk
about it. And you were spot on.
You were correct. Because it did take off for
those reasons. And then to see what followed, I
think it was just like poetic justice.
Thank you. I have a carpool set up for my
kids to get to school and every once in a while I drive the kids
to school in the morning. And I have an enterprising young
10 year old named Akshay that I that I have the pleasure of
driving to school. And he's so well read.
He's so interested in current events and he's a big fan of
yours. And so we were talking politics
and current affairs and I was telling him that I had, you
know, the honor of of speaking with you and honor and
interviewing you for the podcast.
And he had some questions for you.
So I wanna I'm gonna pop up those videos here.
It's so. Cute so.
That the viewers can see them. But I will.
I'll play the video for you. Hi, I'm Akshay, I'm the 5th
grader who loves journalism. Oh my God I love this.
Kid, as a respected and experienced writer for major
news outlets, what's some advice you would give aspiring
journalists about how to investigate topics correctly?
So cute. Oh my God, I'm obsessed with
this kid. Me too.
Hi Akshay, if you were an aspiring journalist, the best
advice I have is to just start doing journalism.
Start writing things. Maybe, you know, write some
e-mail dispatches to your friends and family, started
local newsletter about what's going on in your neighborhood.
You know, when you get to middle school and high school, write
for your middle school paper. Write for your high school paper
because there's nothing that teaches you how to do journalism
except actually doing it. And follow things that you're
interested in. You know what's going on in the
community around me. Go ask questions.
And I think the best journalism is not the one where people
already come in with a viewpoint, but, you know, think
about things that you're curious about and go ask questions and
see, you know, if someone sort of confirms what you're thinking
already or makes it more complicated.
I love that. And then there was one more
question that he had that I sent you as well.
I was wondering when you took a trip to the ice attainment
facility in El Salvador, what were some things that you
observed? How does that compare to any
Isotene roof facilities in America?
Wow, what a good question. Yeah, so actually he's asking
about a trip I took last March, actually, with Christina, where
I visited the sort of notorious prison in El Salvador called
Sukkot, where we sent about 200 immigrants we like, took them
out of their regular immigration proceedings and flew them to El
Salvador. And it was a wild experience.
I mean, walking around there at first of all, it was definitely
the biggest facility I've ever been to.
I think that the whole thing holds like 15,000 people.
I don't think it's full. It felt like, you know, I've
visited prisons in America before and they're pretty grim,
like dank places. What was crazy about this prison
was that it was just built a few years ago, and you could really
feel it. It was like brand new.
It didn't smell, despite all the people there.
It sort of felt hot, but in this way that was like almost
intentional. Like I kind of wondered if they
were pumping hot air in. Oh my gosh.
I was just like, I don't know how to describe it other than to
say it almost felt like this like techno future prison.
So it was a bizarre experience being there.
It felt really stark. Like you could tell that they
were psychologically probably torturing the people who were
there. I mean, they they had these bunk
beds that were stacked like right next to each other and
maybe 4 high these metal bunk beds where people were kept most
of the time on their beds. You know, there are all these
allegations of physical abuse. But the thing I would emphasize
is like, we sent people there without any kind of trial.
And also in immigration, you know, one thing that even
Republicans love to say is that deportation is not technically
supposed to be a punishment. It's supposed to be like a
corrective action. If you're here illegally but
you're not in prison, right? You're just being taken out of
the country, technically speaking.
So to you know, to say that we deported people into a prison is
like, what did they do to deserve that?
Like these people were not criminals per say.
Well. And we that's The thing is it's
unproven. They haven't had trials.
So therefore we're just punishing them without any
exploration of whatever the accusations are being made by
people who say, oh, we're only deporting.
Criminals totally. Well, and I mean, in the US we
have we have something in the Constitution that protects
against cruel and unusual punishment.
And even if people did create, you know, commit crimes in the
US, our prison system has, you know, a system of ethics.
We don't torture people in our prisons.
And so, you know, is that a violation of our laws to take
these people and send them to this foreign prison where they
are being tortured? There's no due process.
They're not provided trial there.
And I get this is what actually what I want to end on with you
is there's so much. The counter arguments are so
frustrating for me because people will say things like,
well, you know, they're not U.S. citizens, they don't have
rights. That's actually not true.
There are many rights that people have without being AUS
citizen on US soil. And that's that drives me crazy
when people say that because it's just factually untrue, yet
it is perpetuated again by so many people.
It's tough, right? Especially as a reporter
covering this stuff, like, you know, these are maybe some of
them at least are not the most sympathetic characters.
They're sort of tattooed, you know, immigrants.
Maybe they have some gang affiliation.
It's not totally clear. And people are like, OK, why are
we spending so much time caring about these people and not
caring enough about Americans who, you know, can't afford to
put food on the table? And it's a, it's a fair
question. Like, why do I spend so much
time reporting on these people part, you know, partially
because it's my job. But to me, it's like the way
that we treat immigrants is sort of like a bellwether for how we
could we might treat other people too.
We often test out new punishments on foreigners first.
And I think, you know, when when this government potentially like
violates court orders. And in that case, there's a very
famous, you know, a judge said you were not allowed to send
that plane to El Salvador, turn it around, and they didn't
listen. It's like, what else?
What else are they going to choose to ignore?
Right? And how eerily familiar does
this sound to things that have happened, you know, in in world
history from the past? OK.
And another question I want to ask you.
Another constant counter argument I get is, well, Obama
deported a bunch of people. He's actually deported even more
people than Trump. And I know what I have is my
sort of rote response to that. But I would love to hear what
your response to that would be as an expert.
Yeah, Obama actually did did deport a lot of people.
His his high watermark was I think in 2013 he deported about
430,000 people. First of all, that's higher than
any year in Trump won. It's higher, much higher than
any year under Biden, but it's lower than this past year.
I mean, Trump just deported, roughly speaking, 500,000
people. And I think people are feeling
that, right? People are noticing that people
in their communities are being deported.
One thing that Obama did that was controversial in its own way
at the time is that he really, really leaned on jails and
prisons to turn people over, sometimes mid sentence,
sometimes before they were even sentenced.
You know, people who were picked up sometimes on relatively
minor, you know, traffic violations and sent to jail,
those people would be turned over to ICE and quickly
deported. And people had a huge problem
with that because it was, you know, in a similar way like a
violation of due process. Like, you know, did these people
actually, besides being in the country illegally, did these
people sort of do something that in the minds of maybe more
liberal minded Americans, like made them deserve to be
deported? But Trump hasn't done that as
much. I mean, he's been really out
there arresting people in communities, which is why I
think people are feeling it even more.
You know, maybe it's a slightly higher number of total
deportations than under Obama, but people are feeling it more
because it's more people that they know and that they've seen
get arrested. Yeah, I mean, I think my answer
to people is always, you know, it's not just the end result.
You have to look at the execution of the plan, right.
So if, right, if Obama, you know, as those in defense of
Obama's immigration policies say, well, he was, he really did
what he could do to target people with a criminal record,
right? And that's what he focused on
and who he was deporting. You can't really say that
accurately for the Trump administration and who they're
choosing to deport for the exact reasons that you said, but only
to I it's worth discussing because I think it's actually
something immigration policy is controversial and clearly we
haven't gotten it right and we need to figure it out.
And I think there are people on both sides that can agree with
that. But the way we have crossed that
conversation into what is happening now, which in my
opinion, frankly qualifies as human rights violations, I think
is where, I don't know, you lost me.
I, I am. It's going to be hard, I think,
to really come back from this. And I think in the past, when
we've seen countries, whether it was the United States or other
countries, villainize immigrants in this way, it had a very
profoundly negative impact on the growth of science,
technology, culture, arts, and things that are maybe more
universally relatable, like like the cost of groceries.
Totally. I think all of those things are
connected to immigration. One last question I want to
leave you with I as a consumer of news from very reputable
sources, but also, I hate to admit it, but I'm also the one
doom scrolling and and I'll see a clip, but I'll.
Repost it because it. Right.
And a lot of these we'll talk about really notably inhumane
conditions, specifically at the daily ICE, ICE detention center
in Texas, moldy food, worms, parasites, no access to clean
water, charging $39.00 per day for access to clean water.
People who are sick, dying because these illnesses are
going ignored. How much of that do you feel a
sensationalist journalism or cherry picking versus an
accurate representation of what we're seeing in these detention
centers? Somehow I think it's a little
bit of both. ICE detention is not a good a
fun place to be. And from all accounts, from
everyone I've spoken to, the food is never good.
It's, you know, it's disgusting. It's not healthy.
They also serve it at weird times.
The place feels dirty. They cram people in there.
And I think the thinking is like, why invest so much because
people aren't going to live here.
Like our goal is to just deport them as quickly as possible.
But yeah, I think, I think what people are reporting is
definitely accurate. It's, you know, the government
doesn't, it's not a high priority for them to provide
really good conditions for people.
And this is the result. And, and you know, and then they
hire these private contractors who are trying to just sort of
do this as cheaply as possible. And that's how you get moldy
food, no laundry, no clean water, etcetera.
If I had to make an ending statement and all of this, it
has been so difficult to watch. As someone who is an immigrant,
it has been incredibly difficult to watch people in my community
affected by this. And I, what I do, hope to quote
you. You said, you know, the universe
tends to bend in the direction of justice over time.
I do hope to see that. And I will be curious to see
what the reparation for this looks like.
Where does the pendulum done swing to see that it has gone so
far in this direction? Now I I can't wait to see what
the next 10 years, 20 years holds for for the United States.
Me too. Well, thank you Michelle so much
for joining us on Insight Thoughts out Loud.
It was a pleasure talking to. You.
This is awesome. Oh, I'm so glad.
I'm so glad. Thank you for asking.
After having this chat with Michelle, I think one of the
most impressive things that landed with me is her ability to
approach these topics as impartial as possible.
I think her being blind is actually a gift in this
capacity. She's really able to use all of
her senses in taking in a place that she visits or in
conversations with people that she may interview are sources.
And I think that is such a gift, especially in today's world when
it comes to journalism and reporting.
I think another remarkable thing about Michelle is the confidence
with which she navigates the world and her job, and I think
that's something that all of us can learn from.
I truly believe that diversity and inclusivity, these are not
terms that we just have to check a box.
And I really, really believe that these are actionable items
that will allow us to be the best of who we are by working
with people with different perspectives, different
abilities. And I hope that this episode
with Michelle inspired you today.