1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,640 Today I'll be interviewing Michelle Hackman with the Wall 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,040 Street Journal. She's a well known immigration 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,440 reporter who studied at Yale, was a writer for the Yale Daily 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,960 News and now has worked for Wall Street Journal for almost 10 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:13,920 years. She has such an interesting 6 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:15,760 history. She was born with a congenital 7 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,960 condition that we'll talk about and it will blow your mind with 8 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,720 the grace with which she navigates the world and her job. 9 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,880 Given this condition that she's dealt with since birth. 10 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,840 We're going to talk about some of the most pivotal pieces she's 11 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,600 written on immigration and one particular one that went viral 12 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,040 for all the right reasons. And of course, we're going to 13 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,800 talk about immigration policy itself. 14 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,920 Let's dive right in on this week's episode of Inside 15 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,360 Thoughts Out Loud. Welcome, Michelle Hackman to 16 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,560 Inside Thoughts Out Loud. I am so excited to have you 17 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,000 here. I have to start this 18 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,560 conversation by first going over to what a remarkable human being 19 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,280 you are. So I want you to tell me, walk 20 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,280 me through your time at Yale and how you ended up with The Wall 21 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,560 Street Journal and then specifically doing pieces on 22 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,120 immigration. I was very lucky to be able to 23 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,920 go to Yale. I, I always knew that I wanted 24 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,879 to be a journalist. Even in high school. 25 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,280 I wrote for my high school paper. 26 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,520 I, I more than even writing for my high school paper. 27 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,600 I think I just had this aspiration of like, you know, I 28 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,560 had these images of myself covering presidential campaigns 29 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,040 and, like, doing what you see reporters do on TV. 30 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,440 And I don't know. I don't know if it was Gilmore 31 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,600 Girls or what it was, but I was like, I have to go write for the 32 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:27,880 Yale Daily News. Yeah. 33 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,520 I honestly don't know. I mean, I'm sure it would have 34 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,080 been fine had this not worked out. 35 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,720 It's amazing that it did, but I feel like I almost welded into 36 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:36,760 being so. Yeah. 37 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,440 So I I joined as soon as I got there. 38 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,200 I. And what was your major at you? 39 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,800 Political science. Love that. 40 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:48,080 OK, yes, I maybe, maybe should have majored in something 41 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,440 different, but we could go back to that. 42 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,160 We're going to, because I have an aspiring reporter, 43 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,840 journalist, young gentleman that's in my car pool that is 44 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,760 obsessed with your work. And so we're going to get there. 45 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,200 But yeah, go ahead. I mean, but when you say what I 46 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,800 like, what did I major in? I mean, I think probably the 47 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,199 honest answer, and I've heard other people say this too, is I, 48 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,480 I majored in the college newspaper. 49 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,800 It's like definitely where I spent the most time, wherever I 50 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,960 could, like, especially the later years of college, instead 51 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,920 of writing normal papers, I would try to write in the style 52 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:25,640 of like magazine articles so that I could reuse them and 53 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:30,040 maybe publish them. I did that a few times, but I 54 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,640 started there. I covered all sorts of stuff. 55 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,200 My second year, they gave out beats, and so I was covering 56 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,880 sort of city and state politics in New Haven and Connecticut. 57 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:46,400 And then I ended up editing that section of the newspaper and 58 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,080 just started doing internships all over, you know, one in 59 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,400 Pittsburgh. And then I got connected with 60 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,560 the Wall Street Journal, which is how I eventually ended up 61 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,360 back there full time. And you said all of this, and I 62 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:00,920 purposefully didn't lead with this because I wanted you to 63 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,440 tell us all of this and then tell our listeners for those who 64 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,920 may not know you are blind. That's right. 65 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,120 How has that looked for you navigating being a part of the 66 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,600 Yale Daily News and then going into reporting and working for 67 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,960 Wall Street Journal? You know, there, I guess this 68 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,000 was not a lot of precedent for what I did and. 69 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,120 Yeah. Do you know how remarkable you 70 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:25,560 are? I mean, that's what you're so 71 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,280 humble. I like. 72 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,480 Do you know how amazing you are? Thank you. 73 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,840 Yeah. So I, I was born with a 74 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,920 condition where basically I was born with a non functional left 75 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,080 eye. And when I was 8, you know, my 76 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,320 right eye was somewhat affected too and, and my retina detached 77 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,000 when I was 8. And so they weren't able to fix 78 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,520 it. I lost all the vision in my 79 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,480 right eye too. And I don't know, in retrospect, 80 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,840 it's like if you have to go blind, which I'm not necessarily 81 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,360 here saying that I recommend it, but like if it were to happen to 82 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,080 you, I think it was like a great time. 83 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,000 It was, it was the best possible time. 84 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,920 I was old enough that I kind of knew what things looked like. 85 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:19,440 I remember colors, for example, you know, I have an idea of I 86 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,280 have a really good visual, like a spatial memory. 87 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:24,480 I know what some people's faces look like. 88 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,480 But at the same time, I was young enough, you know, when 89 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,320 you're like a really little kid, you can adapt to anything. 90 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,600 Like it's not like you're so old that you're mourning what you 91 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,560 could no longer do. I think you're just, your brain 92 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,880 is so malleable that you grow and, and I and I, you know, got 93 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,520 all these services through school. 94 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,080 I was in a public school, but a really, really good one where 95 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,760 they, they taught me Braille and they gave me these things called 96 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,360 mobility lessons. And I remember like, 97 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,040 specifically at age 15, I think I also was just like, I had this 98 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,160 probably like an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex. 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,240 Like I didn't have enough fear. Which is another great thing 100 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,080 about kids in general. Yeah, totally. 101 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,640 I just, I have this vivid memory of going with the mobility 102 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,360 instructor. And they were like, OK, like 103 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,240 we're going to, we're going to take the subway. 104 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,280 And it's not like I knew anything about the subway. 105 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,720 But they were like, you know, if you get lost, just like, you 106 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,120 know, they would, they would walk maybe like 50 feet behind 107 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,720 me. So like not close enough that I 108 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:27,920 could turn and be like, where am I? 109 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,120 What am I doing? So we went into the city. 110 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,760 They they sort of trailed me, but they were like, if you get 111 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,240 lost or like you don't know where you are, you need to just 112 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,000 find for a stranger and ask for directions and you'll find that 113 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,920 people help you. And I, I remember this because I 114 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,440 was there with one other person who was like, really timid 115 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,840 about, you know, stopping strangers and asking for help. 116 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:51,040 But I was like, whatever, this is what I got to do. 117 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,280 You know, I really want to get from point A to point B. 118 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,960 And I just, yeah, I think maybe like a lack of fear and a lack 119 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,720 of shame that's weirdly coming very handy with with my 120 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,040 journalism. I, I just think I mean your, 121 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,880 your take on it is so refreshing. 122 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,480 And I also want to talk about it in the context of obviously 123 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:18,320 current events and watching. I think a lot of young people 124 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:23,400 navigate the world that come in with a variety of skill sets, 125 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,600 right? And to me, I've always, always, 126 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,160 always believed in the diversity bonus before it became a term 127 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,040 that was keyed, right. I truly believe that diversity 128 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,760 is not just for inclusivity or to make somebody feel better. 129 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,840 Diversity is literally the way we're going to be better at 130 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,920 everything. And to see someone who is 131 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,720 incredibly successful in their career, but has what many look 132 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,040 at as as a difficult disability that they otherwise would have 133 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,000 struggled to get beyond your such an incredible example of 134 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:58,200 how if we have such programs, if we give people the space to ask 135 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,800 questions, have no shame. You know what I mean? 136 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,360 All the things that you said, then you create these adults who 137 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,440 give back to to the world in such meaningful ways. 138 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,520 Do you feel since you were that 8 year old girl, do you feel 139 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,400 like we've gotten better or worse at doing whatever is 140 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,080 necessary to help people who have variable abilities reach 141 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,560 their highest potential? You know, it's hard for me to 142 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,160 say because I'm just me, but I feel like I do have this 143 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,320 optimism that, you know, it's like the universe is long, but 144 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,120 it bends toward justice. What's that that famous phrase? 145 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,000 I do feel like we've gotten better, you know, we've had more 146 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,240 people in positions, you know, with, with a various backgrounds 147 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:45,360 and disabilities. And I just found that like, you 148 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,240 know, maybe people at the Wall Street Journal when I got hired, 149 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,880 like, you know, blanked or had questions, but no one shared 150 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,280 them with me, which I find so remarkable. 151 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,360 Like no point was, did any editor stop me and say, like, is 152 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,120 that something you can really do? 153 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,240 Or, you know, I, I think, I mean, it probably helps that I 154 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,520 was sort of entry level and so they were able to give me like 155 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,160 fairly basic stuff to begin with. 156 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,840 But you know, they, they really treated me like anyone else, 157 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,720 which I really appreciated. And I think, you know, over 158 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,320 time, it's funny, I feel like I've been more on the receiving 159 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,720 end of, of learning from diversity than on the giving 160 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,320 end. But I, I really hope that I've 161 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,800 been able to give to colleagues too and sort of teach them 162 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,200 various skills. You know, I, I think one, OK, 163 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,400 one example that comes to mind is early on one of my Co 164 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,120 workers, he was like, when you go on a reporting trip and you 165 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,440 have to describe a scene, how do you do that? 166 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:44,360 Like he was like, I don't get it. 167 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,480 You can't like look around. And I was like, I don't know. 168 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,080 I just treat it like a reporting question. 169 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,720 I just asked people around me like, what does this room look 170 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:52,920 like? How would you describe the 171 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,080 furniture? You know, how would you describe 172 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,840 what this person's wearing? And he was like, wow, I'd never 173 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,520 even thought to do that. But see, that's what I'm talking 174 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,600 about. The diversity bonus is you are 175 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,000 now reporting from such a unique capacity and angle that other 176 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,200 people who would use their eyes. But then of course comes your 177 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,320 own unconscious bias, right? So how you would describe 178 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,840 something versus how others and most would argue that data 179 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,520 gathering the opinions of multiple people versus simply 180 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,800 describing what you see. The former is actually 181 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,520 potentially, quote, better reporting, right? 182 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,840 And that would be, I would think a bonus or an an improved way of 183 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,800 reporting that a lot of people maybe don't do because they do 184 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,200 rely on their own eyesight. And yeah, that's something that 185 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,640 we probably don't even think about. 186 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,880 Again, you, you don't all of us obviously walk through life with 187 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,520 with their own biases and and that's normal because we lead 188 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,800 our lives and we have our unique experiences and then we have 189 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,760 shared experiences. But I bet it, like your 190 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,720 colleague who asked this question, I bet it blew their 191 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,560 mind. Oh my gosh, like you, I think 192 00:09:57,560 --> 00:09:59,560 you're about to say it. I never thought to do that. 193 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:03,040 I just described what I see. I know you had a great you 194 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:04,680 continue to have a great experience at the Wall Street 195 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:06,880 Journal. Can you think of a time where 196 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:13,200 you didn't or where you felt that you weren't, maybe granted 197 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,840 the benefit of the doubt or the ability to have the same success 198 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,280 as a colleague because of the blindness? 199 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,200 And if you have one of those stories, just I'd love to hear 200 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,560 about how you navigated. There are things like, I don't 201 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,840 know if this is necessarily at the hands of anyone else, but I, 202 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,520 you know, I, I feel like I definitely grew up with this 203 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,080 attitude of like, you know, I don't know how I'm going to pull 204 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,120 this off, but I want to. So I'm going to figure out a 205 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,720 way. And that's like really, really 206 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,920 behooved me in a lot of ways. Like. 207 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,200 Who do you credit that to? I have no idea. 208 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,880 Yourself, your parenting, a teacher, the neighborhood you 209 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,040 grew up in. And you're allowed to say 210 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:49,720 myself, just like I was born about. 211 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,080 Probably, probably all of those things, but I do like, you know, 212 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,520 I had parents who definitely like were always like shook by 213 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,040 some of the ideas I'd come up with that I'd want to do, but 214 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,720 would say yes to them. They're very permissive. 215 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,960 They, you know, we're very, you know, very into education and 216 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,680 into making sure that I had all the sort of tools that I needed 217 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:11,240 to be a functional adult. Sorry. 218 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,880 I like definitely credit my parents. 219 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:20,520 I had this amazing teacher in high school who also trying to 220 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,640 think what to even say about who can. 221 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,960 We get a name. Yeah, his name was Mr. Shorn. 222 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,240 He was my high school science teacher. 223 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,440 I worked on a big science, like a big research project with him 224 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,520 through a lot of high school. So we spent a lot of one-on-one 225 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,480 time together and he was really into the idea of me growing up 226 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,120 being a reporter. And he never, I don't know, he 227 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,880 just he thought it was like really, I think he thought it 228 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,120 was well suited to like my interest in politics and my, you 229 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,560 know, I like to talk to people and I like to figure things out. 230 00:11:53,560 --> 00:12:00,440 And I like, I just remember this is so apropos nothing. 231 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:03,800 I remember one time he was talking to me and he was like, 232 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,600 you know, if you're going to go be a journalist and be traveling 233 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,680 the world all the time, like you need to find a spouse, maybe 234 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,560 with a more stable job. And I was like, that's hilarious 235 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:15,360 that you're giving a high schooler that advice. 236 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,680 But I think it was like, it was two things. 237 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:21,720 It was like, you know, one a really good life advice, but 2 238 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,240 was like, oh, I'm going to be traveling the world and like he 239 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,480 sees that and I I want to do that too. 240 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,440 And I don't like. I don't know how that's going to 241 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,520 happen, but I'll figure it out. As someone who also grew up very 242 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,360 confident to the degree of delusion, I mean I continue to 243 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,200 be when I was. Delusional, right? 244 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,640 Yeah. But it has also served me well. 245 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,960 I just, however I choose to reinvent myself, whatever goals 246 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,000 I said, I simply will figure it out along the way. 247 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,000 But I, I credit my parents a lot because they fed into the 248 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,800 delusion they were, they were also saying things like, well, 249 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,760 when you're, when you're that big bad plastic surgeon that you 250 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,400 want to be, think about XY and Z, right? 251 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:01,720 And when you hear that as a child and somebody that you 252 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,400 respect, that you trust, believes in you, and they say it 253 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,520 with such ease and comfort, I mean, what an incredible 254 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,760 blessing that is. And I, I'm repeating it out loud 255 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,560 because I do get on my on my Instagram page a lot of 256 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:18,760 questions about parenting and a lot of questions about how do we 257 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,040 raise somebody who's going to be self confident and, and go after 258 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,040 their dreams. And I think my greatest advice 259 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,280 to them is you always have to. You can't just say you can be 260 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,640 whatever you want to be. You have to help them visualize 261 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,280 what that world is going to be like for them. 262 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,880 Because even in high school or as a young child, when you hear 263 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,000 an adult that you respect echo your dreams, in reality, I think 264 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,480 that's incredibly powerful. The thing I was going to say is 265 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,160 like, you know, I come in with that attitude and I think the 266 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,760 one of the things that's been like a little challenging for me 267 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,080 is sort of going into spaces where I'm like, oh, I am really 268 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,800 not well suited for this in a way that like was A Little Dream 269 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,760 crushing. And there's sort of two 270 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,480 examples. And I think it's fine because I 271 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,360 found something that really does suit my like interests and 272 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,440 talent. But you know, for example, did I 273 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,680 wanted to cover Congress? Well, Congress is a bunch of 274 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,440 like old white dudes and the whole game is that you have to 275 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,400 know all their faces. So when you spot one in the 276 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,560 hallway, you can like, chase them and ask them questions. 277 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,240 And I don't know, I came in with that delusion of like, I can do 278 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,360 that. And so I tried a little bit and 279 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,000 I was like, actually, this is like insanely difficult. 280 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,360 And I'm getting in other people's way. 281 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,120 And like, people aren't going to just help me because they need 282 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,240 to get their own quotes. Yeah, Reese Witherspoon put, I 283 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,160 want to say the video went on Instagram, I think 1st, and she 284 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,720 was giving advice in general about people say chase your 285 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,160 dreams, but instead of chasing your dreams, chase what you're 286 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,960 good at and make that your dream was essentially the gist of what 287 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,240 she was trying to say. Did you did you catch that clip? 288 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,400 I didn't. I need to watch. 289 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:55,680 I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you. 290 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,840 But it was, I don't know how I felt about it when I heard it 291 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,400 because a part of me is like, no, you, you should chase your 292 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,920 dreams and I think make your dreams your skill set, right? 293 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,640 I would flip it around. But I also think that some of 294 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,400 the most successful people their what they choose to do or what 295 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,600 they choose to succeed in is in fact a reflection of their skill 296 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:17,480 sets. It's like a chicken or egg 297 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:18,960 argument. Do they make it their skill set 298 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,640 or was it inherently their skill set? 299 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:21,240 I don't know. I. 300 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,240 Would argue it probably goes a little bit both ways, that you 301 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,040 have to do some experimentation, right? 302 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,960 Yeah. Like, I really wanted to cover 303 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,320 political campaigns, and I begged and begged. 304 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,400 And finally in, like 2019, they allowed me to go, I forget, 305 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,720 like, which Democratic candidate I was going to go cover. 306 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,280 And once I got there, I was like, oh, this sucks. 307 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,840 Like, all you do is just, like, chase the candidate and see if 308 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,520 they'll stop and answer a question. 309 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,560 And I was like, that's really hard for me. 310 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,840 And it's also really uninteresting. 311 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:56,960 Yeah. So I mean you own a little. 312 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,440 Bit of a dream puncture moment. Yeah, exactly. 313 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,240 But then you figure out something else that's sort of 314 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,320 scratch is a similar itch. Yeah, I mean, I spent most of my 315 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,080 formative years training to be a surgeon, and here I am on social 316 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,360 media and a podcast and all sorts of other things. 317 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,920 So I also am a firm believer. How far did you get? 318 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,960 Well, I'm I'm still a full time practicing reconstructive 319 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,920 surgeon, but I. I Oh my God. 320 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,120 OK, I'll need to sidebar with you about that. 321 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,200 Yeah, but I very much, I was actually talking to my cousin 322 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,760 about this on the drive over. I very much believe in 323 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,960 reinvention as well because I, I, I love medicine. 324 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:33,960 I love being a surgeon and it's fantastic. 325 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,920 And I think the reason I chose plastic surgery is it's probably 326 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,680 one of the most artistic subspecialties within medicine. 327 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,120 Or you can be artistic and be a scientist. 328 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,040 But I also think it wasn't enough of it didn't cure my 329 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,840 creative itch enough. So when I had the bandwidth and 330 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,960 capacity and time, I was able to then explore these other things. 331 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,720 But it I, when I, when Reese Witherspoon put out that video, 332 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,400 I think overwhelmingly got positive, you know, positive 333 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,120 response from the community. But I felt very torn about it 334 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,440 because I, I definitely am good at being a doctor and I'm good 335 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,560 at being a surgeon and I got the grades, all the things that one 336 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,400 needs to do to become a surgeon, I was inherently good at. 337 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,319 So that was great and I did it and that was great. 338 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,599 But I always wonder if completely left to my own 339 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,359 devices and if I had loved my parents as well, but if I maybe 340 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,960 was born into a different family, would I have gone into 341 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,880 journalism or I don't know the entertainment field or something 342 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,320 reporting, would I? I always think about that my, my 343 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,800 family are immigrants from Iran and they like, are very much 344 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,560 prescribed into these, you know what, what kind of work could 345 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,240 you get coming to America? I always think about my dad, 346 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,240 like, he works in the jewelry business in New York City, but 347 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,160 his interests are really like, you know, in all his free time, 348 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,200 he's always watching the Discovery Channel and Animal 349 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,080 Planet. I was like, if my dad grew up 350 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,600 here, he would have been a scientist. 351 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,640 So he would have been like going on safaris, you know? 352 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,920 No, absolutely. And what an interesting thing to 353 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,360 think about and what a beautiful segue to talk about immigration 354 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:12,000 actually. But you know, I, I was born in 355 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,160 India, so I am technically a first generation immigrant, but 356 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,760 I, I moved here when I was very, very young and my parents, of 357 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:24,320 course, immigrants from India. And my dad is an engineer, also 358 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,840 has ajd also has an MBA, also does real estate. 359 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,280 That man is an engineer to the core of his being. 360 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,120 And I think no matter all of the other things he did, he is an 361 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:33,920 engineer. So I think he did end up exactly 362 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,400 where he wanted to end up. Where he belonged to where he. 363 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,120 Belonged. Yeah, He did it in India and 364 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:40,600 then he did it in the United States and now he's retired and 365 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,920 manages all of his kids portfolios. 366 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,520 My mother loves medicine. Excellent physician, but very 367 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,600 much as a flare for fashion has a flare for she's this beautiful 368 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,680 woman. She loves religion. 369 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,600 Actually, she's very, very interested in religion, her own 370 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,400 religion, which is Hinduism, but also deeply invested in 371 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,960 Catholicism. And so I always wonder if again, 372 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,480 if my mother grew up here, I don't know where, where would 373 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,400 she be? Would she be like a professor of 374 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,920 theology somewhere? And I, I think it is such an 375 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,680 interesting concept of a sort of need versus want and then also 376 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,440 skill set versus desire. And where does that all fit in 377 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,200 the big picture of your own delusion and manifestation? 378 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,040 It's all very interesting. And I'm grateful that for my 379 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,040 kids, I think the one thing I tell them is whatever you do, 380 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,200 you just have to do it with excellence. 381 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,920 So you're lucky you were what? Literally whatever you want to 382 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,320 be, you can be that, but just do it really, really, really well. 383 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:35,760 Like put your heart and soul into it. 384 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,360 Lean in, yeah. Exactly. 385 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,640 OK, so you of course are an extremely well known writer and 386 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,720 reporter on immigration for the Wall Street Journal, and I 387 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,720 myself have been loving your pieces. 388 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,200 I think stylistically you very much have, you have a delivery. 389 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,960 How did you get to that stylistically? 390 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,600 Is it specific to being a reporter on immigration? 391 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,320 Did have you always written like that? 392 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,520 How did you find that? It's just, it's so it's like 393 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,160 perfectly punchy. I don't know how else to 394 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,480 describe it. You read it and you're like, oh, 395 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,000 thank you. That's how I feel when I read 396 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,440 your pieces. It's probably years of training 397 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,480 of being at the Wall Street Journal and learning to write 398 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,400 about style. But that's a really good 399 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,320 question. I I've thought a lot about, I 400 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,840 mean, my job as a reporter and especially covering immigration 401 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:33,000 is, you know, it's, it's, it's an art to an extent, but you 402 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,720 know, it's, I'm not there because people want to read 403 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,120 beautiful sob stories. I'm there because people need 404 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,400 and good information. You know, immigration is 405 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,080 something that is so often boiled down to something really 406 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,600 basic in our culture. But you know, the the process of 407 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,320 immigrating and immigration laws in the country are incredibly 408 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,200 complicated. People always say that like it's 409 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,320 the second most complicated area of law after the tax code. 410 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,680 And I think that's right. It's saying. 411 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,640 Yeah. And so my job is really to write 412 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,600 in this way that is it's like a it's a balancing act and it's 413 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,480 taken me years to work on it where you have to be precise but 414 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,000 also accessible. And so how do you make choices 415 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:25,720 of how to describe things that are technically accurate but 416 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,840 also not so in the weeds that people don't understand them? 417 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,560 Yeah, which I, again, I think to your comment on how complex 418 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,720 immigration law is, that's a, that's a tall order because the, 419 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,280 even the average, the average American citizen, and definitely 420 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,920 even even if you've pursued higher levels of education, it's 421 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,440 just not a core part of your learning. 422 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,440 You don't know these things about immigration law. 423 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,120 And so you're so heavily dependent on what you read to 424 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:54,680 then be able to sort of paint the picture of what's going on. 425 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,280 So paint the picture for us of what's going on. 426 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,760 Is that a? That's a big question. 427 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,440 That's a huge question. I mean, how unprecedented is 428 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,120 what's happening right now that. Is a really good question too, 429 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,520 in some ways unprecedented in our modern times. 430 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,440 I'm. So glad you said that because I 431 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,680 was going to say we've been here before, but go ahead, we. 432 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,720 Have we have? I think we're, yeah, we're 433 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,560 hitting this point where God, wow. 434 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,280 Sorry for a Saturday morning, I really should have door dashed 435 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,280 you like a matcha latte before down this road. 436 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,280 Trump has done this thing. It's really, it's really 437 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,480 complicated to sum up in, in a sentence or two because there's 438 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,200 a, a constant back and forth in our culture where he came in 439 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:50,840 with one of the most restrictive immigration policies that I've, 440 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,400 I've heard a modern candidate ever take on. 441 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,240 You know, he entering the campaign was saying he wanted to 442 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,160 deport 20 million people. And then he was sort of doing 443 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,000 this dance around, do I like people who immigrate legally or 444 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,320 not? And the way I would sum up how 445 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,080 his policy is shaken out. I wrote this story when he first 446 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,360 took office where I said, you know, Trump. 447 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:16,360 It's not that he hates people who immigrate legally, too. 448 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:19,080 And although a lot of people who work for him, I think, are 449 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,120 there, it's that he is like trying to take the system. 450 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,960 He's trying to have fewer people immigrate and be choosier about 451 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,240 who they are. He wants them to be better. 452 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,120 And his definition of better is sometimes smarter, often richer, 453 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,840 you know? Yeah. 454 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,640 Do you think Grace plays a card for him? 455 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,360 Do you think he wants traditionally Caucasian 456 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,640 appearing? Like if someone coming from, I 457 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,560 don't know, the UK is, does he view that person differently 458 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,200 than the person coming from Pakistan or India? 459 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,040 Maybe Pakistan's not a great example, but India. 460 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,960 It's interesting, I think Trump himself is a little bit more 461 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,720 complicated than that. He definitely has made 462 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,200 statements that are undeniably racist, like, you know, 463 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,280 describing countries in Africa and the Caribbean is shithole 464 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,840 countries or you know, the comments he made about Somalia 465 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,480 and basically saying like their their country is broken. 466 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,200 We don't want those people. And he obviously is making those 467 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,160 comments about countries with darker complexions with that are 468 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,400 poorer. But I think he's more 469 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,160 financially driven than he is racist. 470 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,520 So I feel like he would take the richer person from India, then 471 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,280 he would the, you know, the poor person from the UK to put, I 472 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,080 mean, that's a very Simply put, I someone's going to take this. 473 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,000 Clip And I totally agree to make fun of me on the Internet. 474 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,640 It's interesting because I think a lot of his advisors are not 475 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,320 there like I think we've in the last couple years have seen this 476 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,320 like explosion in anti Indian racism that I frankly was not 477 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,280 prepared for. You know, girls say so I don't 478 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,480 look out for that. I don't think that's Trump, 479 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,480 though. I think that's like parts of his 480 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,040 movement. Well, if you look at Laura 481 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,560 Loomer, and this was super interesting because she has made 482 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,200 so many frankly racist remarks about Indian people. 483 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,160 And then she went to India and my initial. 484 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,080 Was Dalai Lama did you see? That I did and I was. 485 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,240 So I'm like, how does this lady get to meet the Dalai Lama? 486 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,120 Also, who in India invited Laura Loomer? 487 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,880 Like she should not be allowed in the country based on what 488 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,760 she's said but somebody invited her and that I don't. 489 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,360 I still have to vet whether this was real or if it was like AI 490 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:29,280 generated but somebody posted what looked like maybe an ex 491 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,400 post of hers or a threads post of hers saying I went to India. 492 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,600 I take it all back, India was amazing. 493 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,720 I loved it. I only spent 90 days here. 494 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,280 I want to come back and visit South India and I was floored. 495 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,720 I still have to vet whether this is actually true. 496 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,880 I will, but it if it is true, I mean, that's incredible that 497 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,240 somebody was able to change Laura Loomer's mind. 498 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,880 But also just the absolute conviction in depth of her anti 499 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Indian racism was so extreme and she got called out by it because 500 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,080 that was another viral clip was the Indian journalist who said, 501 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,840 why are you here? You have said and then read word 502 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,160 for word the things that she said about Indian people, right? 503 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,120 And she's just like uncomfortably sitting there. 504 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,360 And then she finishes her trip, meets the Dalai Lama and then 505 00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:13,320 says, India's a very clean country. 506 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,920 It's a very modern country. In this clip, she says India's 507 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,600 set up, set up to be the next superpower, which I personally 508 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:21,400 believe. You know what? 509 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,640 I know we're recording. I just got to vet if this is 510 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,920 real. I need to know if she actually 511 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,760 this is important. Yeah, I was like, I don't want 512 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,000 to weigh in just in case. I don't. 513 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,360 I don't know either way. Bloomer loves India Post. 514 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,520 Is it real? Is it real? 515 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,040 Yeah, I think it's true. This is wild to me. 516 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,400 I woke up and saw it this morning. 517 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,200 I was like, what? That's crazy. 518 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,200 No one's saying it's AI in the comments. 519 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,800 I love that that's the thing we have to scream for now I. 520 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,520 Know, I know. I was going to ask you about 521 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,120 that too. AI in the current world of 522 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,360 reporting and journalism. OK Laura Loomer's tweet. 523 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,480 Honestly as someone who has travelled a lot, India is the 524 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,200 best country I have ever travelled to. 525 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,120 It's incredible. I will have been here for 9 days 526 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:08,120 when I leave and there's still so much to see and do. 527 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,240 My experience has been amazing and India is portrayed 528 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,040 negatively in the media as a place Americans should avoid, 529 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,480 but I realize a lot of that is completely made-up. 530 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,440 The people, food culture and hospitality culture are just 531 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,840 incredible. I have felt safe and comfortable 532 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,680 the entire time that I've been here and India will truly be the 533 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,960 next superpower. This country has incredible 534 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,000 potential and you have to see it for yourself to to understand 535 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,000 because the media only makes it out to be third world. 536 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,200 That couldn't be for further from the truth. 537 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,560 Indian people are the nicest people I've ever met. 538 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,520 I'm very grateful for my time in India. 539 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,520 I've enjoyed it so much. I hope I can come back every 540 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,960 year next time I want to visit South India. 541 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,240 I've tried to do as much as possible these last nine days, 542 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,960 but there's still so much to do. All good things come to an end. 543 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,400 Ready for? The entire country of India in 544 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,480 nine days. Yeah, exactly. 545 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,400 I love India. My misconceptions have been 546 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,240 corrected. I have nothing but nice things 547 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,720 to say. Emoji. 548 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,600 Indian flag. Oh my God. 549 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,200 I think she got a lot of heat from that journalist. 550 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,560 I think it definitely didn't look good. 551 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,560 She was in clearly invited to India. 552 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,880 And at the end of the day, you cannot deny that a lot of Indian 553 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,920 Americans hold very influential positions across major 554 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,720 companies, right? And they also can't deny the net 555 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,400 worth and wealth of the Indian billionaires. 556 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,000 I mean, I feel like that's a cultural phenomenon the Indian 557 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,880 billionaire has become, has taken over our feeds, whether 558 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,920 it's their weddings or their jets or their jewelry, we're all 559 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,640 talking about it. And I think that I, I wonder how 560 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,560 much of this obviously, you know, whether directly paid or 561 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,640 whether a framework to then lose some of the popularity that she 562 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,200 had. Not that I don't know that she 563 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,400 had that much popularity, but whoever her group was, I think 564 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,280 some of those comments were really particularly isolating. 565 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,640 So she's walking it back. But that was so interesting to 566 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,520 me. That was, I still don't think 567 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,080 Laura Loomer should be allowed in India. 568 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,320 But if there were an outcome, I guess this is the best possible 569 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,600 outcome. Maybe the Dalai Lama did his 570 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Dalai Lama things, I don't know. Yeah, it sounds like he he did 571 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:10,720 something to her. Yeah. 572 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,600 Seriously, too bad that woman needs like a literal exorcism, 573 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,640 but that's OK. So OK, I wanted to talk to you 574 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,320 about Christina. Love a good conversation about 575 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,160 Christina. She to me, has got to be one of 576 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:31,480 the most vile individuals in politics today because the 577 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,000 absolute inhumanity, right? You know, we talk about 578 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,920 politics, we talk about policy, we talk about he said this, she 579 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,200 said that he believes that, she said that. 580 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,920 And then you talk about actual deaths in ICE detention centers 581 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,800 and you talk about children being ripped away and healthcare 582 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,560 being denied and not having access to clean water, right? 583 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,960 We're talking about the actual violations of human rights that 584 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,880 we're seeing. And she was at the helm of that 585 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,800 and famously got fired very recently. 586 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,520 And I know that you have covered her quite a bit. 587 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,600 And one of the pieces I really want to talk about is the piece 588 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,560 that you put out about. It was about Christy Gnome, but 589 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,800 it wasn't so specifically about the things that all of the 590 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,560 Democrats love to talk about. We love to talk about the 591 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:16,000 inhumanity and the debts and the really just deeply tragic things 592 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,280 going on. Instead, the article was really 593 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,160 more about her efficacy as a boss, as a leader in in 594 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,760 management. And that article took off. 595 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,360 So tell us about that. Sure. 596 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,160 Yeah. I would say one of the things 597 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,920 that I think about a lot as a as a reporter covering this area, 598 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,480 covering immigration, covering the Trump administration is, is 599 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,880 all that stuff you mentioned, you know, undoubtedly bad, 600 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,160 unprecedented numbers of deaths and ICE detention, you know, 601 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,960 some unjust and deportations, people being deported by 602 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,080 accident because there are so many. 603 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,120 Is that Christiano, or is that going to be anyone that they 604 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,040 install because there's so much pressure on this area to just 605 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,160 sort of go big. So it's interesting that you 606 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,880 asked this question because I, you know, my job is to cover the 607 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,760 Department of Homeland Security. And for almost a year, I've been 608 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,720 hearing from people who work there, all these like horror 609 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,880 stories about Christina. But these people, I mean, people 610 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:24,080 who work at DHS, who work at ICE, they're, you know, don't 611 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,880 tend to be like bleeding heart liberals. 612 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,280 They, they believe in immigration enforcement. 613 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,680 And what they had to say about her was kind of like, she's 614 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,240 getting in the way of our mission. 615 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,440 And some of it was objectively bad. 616 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,320 I mean, misuse of taxpayer dollars, just absurd stuff. 617 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,520 And, and the most I think that this, the anecdote that was like 618 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,200 most emblematic of anything that she's done was the story we 619 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,760 heard where she took a trip. She flies a Coast Guard plane 620 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,360 because the Coast Guard is under DHS and there was a mechanical 621 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,040 issue with her plane, so they had to switch planes at the last 622 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,600 minute. She gets on the new plane, 623 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,240 realizes her blanket hadn't been moved from one plane to another, 624 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,400 and so she flies. Christie, a grown adult, doesn't 625 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,040 have her blanket. I wonder how she feels about all 626 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,600 the children who are without their blankets and stuffies. 627 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,000 Anyways, go ahead. Flies into a range, her top 628 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,960 advisor who we've also reported she's in a relationship with 629 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,520 Corey Lewandowski. Like goes and berates the pilot 630 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:35,280 mid flight, fires the pilot for misplacing her blanket, and then 631 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,200 once they land they realize oh shit like we have no way to get 632 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,960 home so they have to reinstate the pilot to fly them home. 633 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,480 What I love about this is that we're seeing more and more this 634 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:54,400 push to, we can't get the MAGA Republicans to, to think like 635 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,000 the bleeding liberals to have a heart. 636 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,840 They clearly whatever they've decided their value system is 637 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,560 allows for this, these inhumane things to happen in ICE 638 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,600 detention centers, right? So continuing to tell them about 639 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,080 it doesn't seem to help because they've already decided that in 640 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,720 their moral compass, whatever allowances are necessary to 641 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,920 allow this to happen, they've already made peace with it. 642 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,160 So what we then do is get at what they actually are bothered 643 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,640 by, which is getting in the way of their mission, misuse of 644 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,520 money, not being an effective, you know, leader or or manager 645 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,440 in this position. And that is what ends up getting 646 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,840 her fired. It was the misuse of taxpayer 647 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,640 dollars for an ad. It was the impetus to then have 648 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,440 Trump let her go despite all these other things. 649 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,800 And that's what I think is so magnificent about what you 650 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:41,800 wrote. And sort of, I think the 651 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,480 cultural implications of that is setting the for this is you can 652 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,560 hate her for all the inhumane, inhumane things that have 653 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,120 happened under her watch, but actually she's also just on 654 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,000 paper, bad at her job. She's not doing her job 655 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,160 properly. And so then the article takes 656 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,920 off, everyone's quoting it, everyone's reposting it, and 657 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,600 then boom, you have that congressional hearing where 658 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,800 she's getting questioned by her own people about the misuse of 659 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,520 taxpayer dollars. Next thing you know, she's let 660 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,679 go, right? I mean, I think that. 661 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,679 Crazy few weeks. Crazy few weeks, but kudos to 662 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:18,920 you because I think one of the most impressive parts of, of a 663 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,400 good or qualities of a, of a good reporter or in journalism 664 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,360 is This is why I couldn't do it, because I'm not impartial. 665 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,320 I'm like a bleeding liberal and I can't take a step back and 666 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,880 take a look at, at these things because I am so bothered by 667 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,159 everything else. But to be able to to have the 668 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:37,880 interest to know that there's this whole other side of the 669 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,120 story that people aren't really talking about, and then to talk 670 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,040 about it. And you were spot on. 671 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,840 You were correct. Because it did take off for 672 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,679 those reasons. And then to see what followed, I 673 00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:49,880 think it was just like poetic justice. 674 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,440 Thank you. I have a carpool set up for my 675 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,600 kids to get to school and every once in a while I drive the kids 676 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,760 to school in the morning. And I have an enterprising young 677 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,320 10 year old named Akshay that I that I have the pleasure of 678 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,840 driving to school. And he's so well read. 679 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,880 He's so interested in current events and he's a big fan of 680 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,360 yours. And so we were talking politics 681 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,360 and current affairs and I was telling him that I had, you 682 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,560 know, the honor of of speaking with you and honor and 683 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,800 interviewing you for the podcast. 684 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,440 And he had some questions for you. 685 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,040 So I wanna I'm gonna pop up those videos here. 686 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,840 It's so. Cute so. 687 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,560 That the viewers can see them. But I will. 688 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,560 I'll play the video for you. Hi, I'm Akshay, I'm the 5th 689 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,480 grader who loves journalism. Oh my God I love this. 690 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,040 Kid, as a respected and experienced writer for major 691 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,680 news outlets, what's some advice you would give aspiring 692 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,600 journalists about how to investigate topics correctly? 693 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,680 So cute. Oh my God, I'm obsessed with 694 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:49,840 this kid. Me too. 695 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,520 Hi Akshay, if you were an aspiring journalist, the best 696 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,040 advice I have is to just start doing journalism. 697 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,800 Start writing things. Maybe, you know, write some 698 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,640 e-mail dispatches to your friends and family, started 699 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,480 local newsletter about what's going on in your neighborhood. 700 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,840 You know, when you get to middle school and high school, write 701 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,240 for your middle school paper. Write for your high school paper 702 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,240 because there's nothing that teaches you how to do journalism 703 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:21,000 except actually doing it. And follow things that you're 704 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,480 interested in. You know what's going on in the 705 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,760 community around me. Go ask questions. 706 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,280 And I think the best journalism is not the one where people 707 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,560 already come in with a viewpoint, but, you know, think 708 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,720 about things that you're curious about and go ask questions and 709 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:41,880 see, you know, if someone sort of confirms what you're thinking 710 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,720 already or makes it more complicated. 711 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,680 I love that. And then there was one more 712 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,680 question that he had that I sent you as well. 713 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:51,880 I was wondering when you took a trip to the ice attainment 714 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,760 facility in El Salvador, what were some things that you 715 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,200 observed? How does that compare to any 716 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:00,040 Isotene roof facilities in America? 717 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:07,240 Wow, what a good question. Yeah, so actually he's asking 718 00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:11,920 about a trip I took last March, actually, with Christina, where 719 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,960 I visited the sort of notorious prison in El Salvador called 720 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:23,080 Sukkot, where we sent about 200 immigrants we like, took them 721 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,680 out of their regular immigration proceedings and flew them to El 722 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:31,480 Salvador. And it was a wild experience. 723 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,840 I mean, walking around there at first of all, it was definitely 724 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,880 the biggest facility I've ever been to. 725 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,080 I think that the whole thing holds like 15,000 people. 726 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,200 I don't think it's full. It felt like, you know, I've 727 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,640 visited prisons in America before and they're pretty grim, 728 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,280 like dank places. What was crazy about this prison 729 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,040 was that it was just built a few years ago, and you could really 730 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,480 feel it. It was like brand new. 731 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,680 It didn't smell, despite all the people there. 732 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,240 It sort of felt hot, but in this way that was like almost 733 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:07,960 intentional. Like I kind of wondered if they 734 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,200 were pumping hot air in. Oh my gosh. 735 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,920 I was just like, I don't know how to describe it other than to 736 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,920 say it almost felt like this like techno future prison. 737 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,840 So it was a bizarre experience being there. 738 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,000 It felt really stark. Like you could tell that they 739 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,200 were psychologically probably torturing the people who were 740 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,800 there. I mean, they they had these bunk 741 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,360 beds that were stacked like right next to each other and 742 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,400 maybe 4 high these metal bunk beds where people were kept most 743 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,560 of the time on their beds. You know, there are all these 744 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,000 allegations of physical abuse. But the thing I would emphasize 745 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,640 is like, we sent people there without any kind of trial. 746 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,480 And also in immigration, you know, one thing that even 747 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,600 Republicans love to say is that deportation is not technically 748 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,320 supposed to be a punishment. It's supposed to be like a 749 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,280 corrective action. If you're here illegally but 750 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,440 you're not in prison, right? You're just being taken out of 751 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,800 the country, technically speaking. 752 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,320 So to you know, to say that we deported people into a prison is 753 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,160 like, what did they do to deserve that? 754 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,800 Like these people were not criminals per say. 755 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,760 Well. And we that's The thing is it's 756 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,440 unproven. They haven't had trials. 757 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,400 So therefore we're just punishing them without any 758 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,240 exploration of whatever the accusations are being made by 759 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:33,320 people who say, oh, we're only deporting. 760 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,880 Criminals totally. Well, and I mean, in the US we 761 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,000 have we have something in the Constitution that protects 762 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,160 against cruel and unusual punishment. 763 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,640 And even if people did create, you know, commit crimes in the 764 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,120 US, our prison system has, you know, a system of ethics. 765 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,520 We don't torture people in our prisons. 766 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,600 And so, you know, is that a violation of our laws to take 767 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,600 these people and send them to this foreign prison where they 768 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,000 are being tortured? There's no due process. 769 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,400 They're not provided trial there. 770 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,920 And I get this is what actually what I want to end on with you 771 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,320 is there's so much. The counter arguments are so 772 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,560 frustrating for me because people will say things like, 773 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,440 well, you know, they're not U.S. citizens, they don't have 774 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,040 rights. That's actually not true. 775 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,040 There are many rights that people have without being AUS 776 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,040 citizen on US soil. And that's that drives me crazy 777 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:29,240 when people say that because it's just factually untrue, yet 778 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:32,000 it is perpetuated again by so many people. 779 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,360 It's tough, right? Especially as a reporter 780 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,480 covering this stuff, like, you know, these are maybe some of 781 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,640 them at least are not the most sympathetic characters. 782 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,200 They're sort of tattooed, you know, immigrants. 783 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,800 Maybe they have some gang affiliation. 784 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,160 It's not totally clear. And people are like, OK, why are 785 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,640 we spending so much time caring about these people and not 786 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,440 caring enough about Americans who, you know, can't afford to 787 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,320 put food on the table? And it's a, it's a fair 788 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,160 question. Like, why do I spend so much 789 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,840 time reporting on these people part, you know, partially 790 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,080 because it's my job. But to me, it's like the way 791 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,600 that we treat immigrants is sort of like a bellwether for how we 792 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,320 could we might treat other people too. 793 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,320 We often test out new punishments on foreigners first. 794 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,880 And I think, you know, when when this government potentially like 795 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,880 violates court orders. And in that case, there's a very 796 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,640 famous, you know, a judge said you were not allowed to send 797 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,880 that plane to El Salvador, turn it around, and they didn't 798 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,200 listen. It's like, what else? 799 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,000 What else are they going to choose to ignore? 800 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,280 Right? And how eerily familiar does 801 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,160 this sound to things that have happened, you know, in in world 802 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:41,520 history from the past? OK. 803 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:42,760 And another question I want to ask you. 804 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,280 Another constant counter argument I get is, well, Obama 805 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,520 deported a bunch of people. He's actually deported even more 806 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,680 people than Trump. And I know what I have is my 807 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,040 sort of rote response to that. But I would love to hear what 808 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,080 your response to that would be as an expert. 809 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,000 Yeah, Obama actually did did deport a lot of people. 810 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,680 His his high watermark was I think in 2013 he deported about 811 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,840 430,000 people. First of all, that's higher than 812 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,680 any year in Trump won. It's higher, much higher than 813 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,840 any year under Biden, but it's lower than this past year. 814 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,720 I mean, Trump just deported, roughly speaking, 500,000 815 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:24,480 people. And I think people are feeling 816 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,680 that, right? People are noticing that people 817 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,440 in their communities are being deported. 818 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,440 One thing that Obama did that was controversial in its own way 819 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,920 at the time is that he really, really leaned on jails and 820 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,520 prisons to turn people over, sometimes mid sentence, 821 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:43,360 sometimes before they were even sentenced. 822 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,400 You know, people who were picked up sometimes on relatively 823 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,120 minor, you know, traffic violations and sent to jail, 824 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,960 those people would be turned over to ICE and quickly 825 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,600 deported. And people had a huge problem 826 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,600 with that because it was, you know, in a similar way like a 827 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,480 violation of due process. Like, you know, did these people 828 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,880 actually, besides being in the country illegally, did these 829 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,400 people sort of do something that in the minds of maybe more 830 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,120 liberal minded Americans, like made them deserve to be 831 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,360 deported? But Trump hasn't done that as 832 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,600 much. I mean, he's been really out 833 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,200 there arresting people in communities, which is why I 834 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,080 think people are feeling it even more. 835 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,000 You know, maybe it's a slightly higher number of total 836 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,280 deportations than under Obama, but people are feeling it more 837 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,680 because it's more people that they know and that they've seen 838 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,960 get arrested. Yeah, I mean, I think my answer 839 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,200 to people is always, you know, it's not just the end result. 840 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,320 You have to look at the execution of the plan, right. 841 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,480 So if, right, if Obama, you know, as those in defense of 842 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,720 Obama's immigration policies say, well, he was, he really did 843 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,680 what he could do to target people with a criminal record, 844 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,120 right? And that's what he focused on 845 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,360 and who he was deporting. You can't really say that 846 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,480 accurately for the Trump administration and who they're 847 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,640 choosing to deport for the exact reasons that you said, but only 848 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,920 to I it's worth discussing because I think it's actually 849 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,880 something immigration policy is controversial and clearly we 850 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,200 haven't gotten it right and we need to figure it out. 851 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,000 And I think there are people on both sides that can agree with 852 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,800 that. But the way we have crossed that 853 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,760 conversation into what is happening now, which in my 854 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,600 opinion, frankly qualifies as human rights violations, I think 855 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,000 is where, I don't know, you lost me. 856 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,960 I, I am. It's going to be hard, I think, 857 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,520 to really come back from this. And I think in the past, when 858 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,920 we've seen countries, whether it was the United States or other 859 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,720 countries, villainize immigrants in this way, it had a very 860 00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,720 profoundly negative impact on the growth of science, 861 00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,440 technology, culture, arts, and things that are maybe more 862 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,000 universally relatable, like like the cost of groceries. 863 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:55,840 Totally. I think all of those things are 864 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,360 connected to immigration. One last question I want to 865 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,800 leave you with I as a consumer of news from very reputable 866 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,440 sources, but also, I hate to admit it, but I'm also the one 867 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,840 doom scrolling and and I'll see a clip, but I'll. 868 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,440 Repost it because it. Right. 869 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,760 And a lot of these we'll talk about really notably inhumane 870 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,240 conditions, specifically at the daily ICE, ICE detention center 871 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:23,280 in Texas, moldy food, worms, parasites, no access to clean 872 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,240 water, charging $39.00 per day for access to clean water. 873 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,440 People who are sick, dying because these illnesses are 874 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,720 going ignored. How much of that do you feel a 875 00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:34,880 sensationalist journalism or cherry picking versus an 876 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,200 accurate representation of what we're seeing in these detention 877 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,320 centers? Somehow I think it's a little 878 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,080 bit of both. ICE detention is not a good a 879 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,760 fun place to be. And from all accounts, from 880 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,120 everyone I've spoken to, the food is never good. 881 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,040 It's, you know, it's disgusting. It's not healthy. 882 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,640 They also serve it at weird times. 883 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,080 The place feels dirty. They cram people in there. 884 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,080 And I think the thinking is like, why invest so much because 885 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:06,080 people aren't going to live here. 886 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,720 Like our goal is to just deport them as quickly as possible. 887 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,240 But yeah, I think, I think what people are reporting is 888 00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:16,440 definitely accurate. It's, you know, the government 889 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,360 doesn't, it's not a high priority for them to provide 890 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:21,880 really good conditions for people. 891 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,400 And this is the result. And, and you know, and then they 892 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,080 hire these private contractors who are trying to just sort of 893 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,480 do this as cheaply as possible. And that's how you get moldy 894 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,680 food, no laundry, no clean water, etcetera. 895 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,240 If I had to make an ending statement and all of this, it 896 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:40,000 has been so difficult to watch. As someone who is an immigrant, 897 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,920 it has been incredibly difficult to watch people in my community 898 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,000 affected by this. And I, what I do, hope to quote 899 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,280 you. You said, you know, the universe 900 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,360 tends to bend in the direction of justice over time. 901 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,160 I do hope to see that. And I will be curious to see 902 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,320 what the reparation for this looks like. 903 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,120 Where does the pendulum done swing to see that it has gone so 904 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,280 far in this direction? Now I I can't wait to see what 905 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,360 the next 10 years, 20 years holds for for the United States. 906 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,520 Me too. Well, thank you Michelle so much 907 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,360 for joining us on Insight Thoughts out Loud. 908 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,360 It was a pleasure talking to. You. 909 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,920 This is awesome. Oh, I'm so glad. 910 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,480 I'm so glad. Thank you for asking. 911 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,440 After having this chat with Michelle, I think one of the 912 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,240 most impressive things that landed with me is her ability to 913 00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:24,640 approach these topics as impartial as possible. 914 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,480 I think her being blind is actually a gift in this 915 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,640 capacity. She's really able to use all of 916 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:35,560 her senses in taking in a place that she visits or in 917 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,520 conversations with people that she may interview are sources. 918 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,400 And I think that is such a gift, especially in today's world when 919 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:42,920 it comes to journalism and reporting. 920 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,720 I think another remarkable thing about Michelle is the confidence 921 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:50,120 with which she navigates the world and her job, and I think 922 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,800 that's something that all of us can learn from. 923 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,800 I truly believe that diversity and inclusivity, these are not 924 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,520 terms that we just have to check a box. 925 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,320 And I really, really believe that these are actionable items 926 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,400 that will allow us to be the best of who we are by working 927 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,360 with people with different perspectives, different 928 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:06,920 abilities. And I hope that this episode 929 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,280 with Michelle inspired you today.