Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times,
good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.
Join me and Ben today as we talk about woke ISM and what the fuck
is going on in today's world. Oh God.
Yeah, yeah, here we go. Let's let's let's just dig
straight into this subject which seems to be people seem to titty
tatter around even talking about this because it might upset
someone. Yeah, I'm, I'm really wanting to
talk about this because I've been on a, a silent study period
around this. I've actually, it's something I,
I, I didn't realize I cared so much about until I started
consuming some of the opinions about woke ISM what's happening.
And it was actually just quite, it was quite an innocent
introduction when I realized I was starting to really dislike a
lot of the things I watched on Disney.
And this is, this is something that I really, I love Disney, by
the way. So for those guys listening, if
you like Star Wars, you'd like Marvel.
If you like the the the Disney stories of of of the past and
the whole concept of Disney. I actually love Disney and what
I've noticed is I have become more and more disengaged with
the stories about Disney and I borderline pissed me off some of
them. Like why are they choosing to
choose a different coloured skin for a lead role?
Like why are they trying to feminize some of the really
important stories in a a time tested beautiful timepiece of a
story? And what is going on behind
this? And what I want to make sure
that happens as we wade through this conversation, Pete, is that
I'm not racist. I'm not sexist, not homophobic.
I believe that there that the way that we are approaching
equality is not going well. I don't think it's actually
improving equality. I don't think woke ISM is
working. And I think that there's so many
people that are not willing to have this conversation because
the backlash is so big, because people are so worried about
taking a stand for something like free speech, like being
able to speak your mind and being open about things.
And one of the biggest problems I think I'm seeing is that
there's a huge oppression of men.
And like, specifically, you know, Elon Musk has sent you
that video, Pete. Elon Musk has taken a stand for
this. And it's like Disney itself is
being widely like known to discriminate against white men.
They're not casting white men. They are not hiring white men.
There's not enough white men in their thing.
And it's like the oppression of men is not going to drive
equality for women. And what I want to talk about in
this conversation and have a, you know, a really good
conversation about and bring you the listener, a good, a good
conversation about is, is what is causing this problem?
What, what is causing the problem where people are turning
to woke ISM to try and build equality, diversity, inclusion,
and what could be a better way. So that's what that's what my
desire for this conversation is. Who do you think is turning to
woke ISM? So I think Hollywood, you know,
Hollywood is has such huge influential power.
Like if you look at Hollywood, Hollywood has way more influence
than we give it credit for. We watch and consume movies,
films, TV shows from from Netflix, from Hollywood, from
like, like film and media all the time.
And I think what's happening is that men have had such a good
ride for such a long time in, you know, pre, you know, the
patriarchy and was in place for such a long time.
But now the modern man is punished for the the crimes of
the patriarchy. So the men having such a, a leg
up over women for such a long time in the, a modern man is
being punished for that. We are literally paying the
price for that. And I think that so many women,
and this is what I think's happening, is that the only way
to drive equality is actually to oppress men.
And it's not the way forward. It's really not the way
forwards. And I, I'm really passionate
about this. I've got two daughters.
I'm a modern man. I just want, I want to create
equality in my household, in my communities and in in the world.
But I actually believe, this is my belief about this is that
equality is actually going to be achieved through strong men.
It's building strong men. And that's what, you know,
obviously Awake Man is a big, big advocate for.
And I think that it's a really delicate topic because so many
people get so freaking offended when you start wading into like
a pragmatic discussion around it.
Yeah and yeah, for sure. But the you talk about strong
men. What's the root cause of not
having strong men so. You said at the start, you know,
you said at the start, strong, sorry, hard times create
strongman and then strongman create easy times, which we're
in right now. We are in like I know we've got
obviously the warring Ukraine. We've got things going on in the
world that are difficult and not hard, but we're actually in the
longest time of global peace that has ever been like.
So it's historically, if you look back over all the world
world wars that I've ever been where there's been mass
conflict, there's a pattern and it's actually in 2020, we were
due a war. Actually, we got a war, but it
was a different kind of war. It was a, it was a actually, it
was COVID. And I was speaking to one of my
clients who's a very intelligent chap, sat on the bike one day
and he said, you know, we're actually in the one of the
longest standing times for peace.
We've actually had a really peaceful, you know, multiple
years. This is not, this is unfamiliar
territory for humans for, for, for our, you know, communities
and all that sort of stuff. So we're actually in easy times.
And if you look at the UK especially, it's like there's so
little, you know, there's so, so much support.
There's so much, there's so many safety Nets for people that are
not willing to do the hard things.
It's created such a fragile economy.
It's created fragile people, fragile economy.
And I think what The thing is, is that the problem I'm seeing
with strong men is that there's so many guys that have just not
been modelled how to be a strong man.
Yeah, yeah. They've not gone through.
There's actually kind of what you're saying there is that many
guys are still boys. 100% I, I think you, you've nailed it.
I think like I was bought by my mum primarily.
And we've talked about this in the absent father episode.
I love my dad. I didn't spend a lot of time
with my dad because of the, the, the, the the make up of our
family. And I was sold a story about my
dad by my mum. So I was very feminized, young
man led and, you know, raised by my mum.
And I think this led to me having to learn so much about
being a great man from mentors, from coaches, from other men,
and obviously being part of AMP that literally like next to my
development in that area, a lot of men have never had that
masculine role model. Like, you know, you could
probably speak to this as well, Pete, you know what you've found
as well. But I think that it's like so
many young boys have not spent good quality time with either
father or be the father who is a good, strong man.
And that's what's missing. Like this is what this is.
And this is what I think the thread for the whole
conversation is going to be is that there's so little strong
male leadership in so many places.
And this is where and I watched. So I just want to give you a bit
of context. I watched the documentary called
What is a Woman? And it's a really good
documentary. Matt Walsh, he's a really good
reporter, journalist, very funny, really funny.
And I was looking at all the commonalities amongst and he
talks about this and when he actually reflected on the
documentary, the one commonality in all of the problems where
they, they would go into a home where there was like either a
person or a kid. A kid of seven years old having
gender identity crisis like this is a 7 year old.
What was the one commonality? No masculine.
Absent Father. The father was either sat in the
room not saying anything, just shaking his head.
He was emotionally vacant, or he was there.
He wasn't there at all. I think this is the problem.
This is the problem. And I kind of like.
So, you know, I might have thrown in quite a few different
concepts like woke ISM, gender disparity, absent father, but I
think the whole root problem here is that men need to start
showing up. And this is the problem I'm
starting to see. And it's sad, you know, it's sad
because I think that this is, you know, even when when, you
know, awaken started, so many men took the piss out of me for
being part of a men's group. They were like, oh, what you're
doing there. And they didn't understand that
that is the route for men to actually become stronger men is
to be around great men. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
And which is hugely lacking. I actually very recently looked
back at my previous relationship, my previous
marriage, and I've done this exercise before.
I thought I'd do it again to go let me actually look back as to
where I can take responsibility for where it fucks up and where
it didn't go right and, and where I was at play.
And the more I looked to where I didn't step up was absolutely
where I was. Just I had so many boyish
tendencies, like emotionally not there, not fully committing
right. Just like avoiding difficult
conversations, avoiding conflict, avoiding like the the
make up conversations and just like diving into work instead,
just like doing everything to actually avoid growing the
relationship deeply. And I can look at that now and
like, and I, I wasn't, I wasn't a bad husband and wasn't a bad
guy. But you know, I can look at that
now and go, actually, I can really see where even after I've
done so much work, still so many boyish tendencies.
Well, I'm just not showing up as a man as I'm just, I'm not
showing up with masculine energy.
I'm very much showing up as a sport little boy or you know,
the boy. Yeah, You know, I'm just, I'm
just as you're sharing that I've probably just played out the
same thing for myself. Yeah.
Like like even even and, and
that's the and, and that is exactly, I think the problem.
And I realized that for my 2 girls, like I've, you know, I'm
now in a, in a female dominated environment.
I'm definitely going to be getting a munchet.
But you know, I just, I looked at the three girls sat there the
other day and like Indy was in a Strop, Effie was sulking and
Poppy was also in that part of the week in the month where it
was just difficult. And I was like, Oh my God, this
is only going to get worse. But you know what?
I, I was, I sat there and I was like, I love these three girls,
you know, so much. You know, Poppy and I actually
need to be the strong male role model and I need to be such a
good role model for those 3. So they, they get an idea of
what a real solid strong man looks like.
And I don't think that that so many guys have had that, you
know you. Know I'll share something with
you Actually the this, this was a couple of weeks ago, someone
said to me, you've got real dad energy about you.
You've got real dad energy. It wasn't good.
Not a dad bother. No, they didn't.
They're not. Yeah, you know, not a dad
bother. No, they didn't.
They didn't know I was a father. Like you've got real and like it
was. And the way that they were
saying it was a like real complimentary, but real dad
energy. And then later on they said to
me, I just, I, I want to just let you know that I've been
looking at you as the, the way I wanted my father to be growing
up. And she's like they were.
I feel really drawn to you because I wanted my father to
show up like you are like you've been showing up and and they
said I for the first time in my life, I feel like the
masculine's safe, Like I feel like I feel like I can trust a
man by because I've I've been in your presence and for me and not
like I've been sitting on that for a couple of weeks ago.
Fucking hell. Wow, that's like such a great
compliment. Fucking huge ass.
Huge, huge compliment. But I can, I can see now like my
growth there and like just a couple of years ago, like
someone would not have said that to me because I still, I was
still very much coming out live as a fucking boy.
And because no one had no one taught me, like no one's shown
me the ropes. Like there was no initiation.
There was no rituals to go through.
Like you're now going from boy to man.
It's very much just thrown into the world and just deal with
things. And then, and then we have all
these things, we have this wokism thing coming up and we've
got to deal with that. And young, young men and boys
have to deal with that and have to navigate that, and they
haven't got guides and role models.
To. Help them, it's difficult.
Think what you said there, right?
It's just like, so I'm watching, watching Matt Walsh's stuff and
he said, you know what you say to all of this?
No, And he said your 7 year old comes in and he said I want to
be a girl daddy. And what's happening is that a
weak man with no boundaries is entertaining quite a dangerous
conversation with a very mixed up and unsure young man who has
just had an idea. I want to be a woman dad.
And he says, do you know what you say in that circumstance?
No, this is and is. And I think it's paving the way
for a type of, I think it's a well, Elon Musk called it a mind
virus. But I think that, you know, I
think that is a real issue with, and I've watched and listened to
so many different things about this.
And one of the interesting things, I heard someone on Joe
Rogan saying it. And obviously you've got to be
careful quoting people on Joe Rogan.
And so far it's not. But she was she studied body
dysmorphia and she quoted that the same the same character
profile of people that are going through transition in early
parts of their life where they're choosing from to go from
male to female or female to male is exactly the same personality
characteristics as those who would have had an eating
disorder 20 years ago. But, but because it wasn't in
the popular media about a, about gender change and sex change is
that now this is almost like the new trend.
And it just made me think it's like, holy shit.
Like because when you've got a child going through a, an eating
disorder, normally it's because they're trying to deal with
something that's going on in the home.
Like that's one of the characteristics of an eating
disorder is that they've had lack of love, lack of support.
There's some sort of there's something going on in the home
or in school that's causing them significant psychological like
harm or struggle. And it's just having that
supportive parent there to say, listen, no, you know, no, this
is not this is not who you are. You're a biological man and the
and these are the you can you can have feminine traits.
You can even actually, if you choose to have ways of being
that that you know that this is like a softer and more masculine
or gentle, but you are a man. And I think that this is the
problem. I think this is the problem.
A lot of men will not have those kind of conversations especially
and they, and we're bowing to like almost social pressure to
allow this conversation into our homes.
And I actually had a conversation with a guy and he
was so upset. He was so upset.
He was so frustrated that his his wife was championing the
gender change of their child and he just didn't have the tools to
navigate it. And he was so upset he lived in
California. He was, you know, a really good
guy. But I think that the lack of
ability to navigate conflict with his wife was actually
exacerbating the problems that were going on in the home.
You know, I don't know what happened at the same time, but
same. It's.
And I think this is, yeah, it comes back to like, men aren't
being equipped with the tools to have these hard conversations.
Yeah, what you just said, though, actually couple, couple
of things to unpack specifically on the tools part, because this
is important, but also men having emotional conversations.
So there's a there's a huge thing on particularly with women
saying to guys, we want you to be more emotional.
We want you to open up more like tell us like we want you to be
more emotionally connected. And for and for a lot of guys
historically that hasn't been it's like, no, well, we're not
going to be we're going to be this strong provider.
We're alpha, we're out providing, protecting warrior
esque, we build and so forth. So then to cut and then it's
actually it's the complete opposite to then be open and
vulnerable, right? And in kind of our society,
vulnerability is seen as soft, softness is seen as weakness.
And so it's like it's a it's polarizing for a guy to go for a
fucking hell, right? What do I do here?
Because my woman's actually saying she wants me to be more
emotional and open. So if the guy doesn't have the
right tools, this is what happens, is it?
He goes, maybe I will just be a little bit more vulnerable and
open then to my woman. And he does that and he opens up
and it feels fucking great, Feels phenomenal because he's
finally able to get some shit off his shoulders.
He's finally got someone to talk to.
But if he's not equipped with the right tools, he'll continue
and go deeper and deeper and he'll end up emotionally dumping
on his woman and tell her everything and she'll be like,
wow, this is fucking overwhelming.
And it's quite unattractive now because now I can see all the
everything that I probably didn't want to see.
And the man feels phenomenal because I fucking I'll, I'll
keep doing this. And then it's a bit of a role
reversal in a relationship because then it does become the
woman the begins to mother the the husband.
I'll let me, I'll have to, I'll have to look after him.
I'll have to mother him because he's in essentially he's wounded
here and now he's seeping everything onto me.
Yeah, I, I, I think I've been, I think, I don't think I've been
there, but I think I can see parts of my relationships where
I've been that person. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, but I, I see this with guys and and I and I hear about
it with with women that say that.
And they're like, well, I don't why is that why, why we're not
having sex anymore? That's just because it's
unattractive. I'd like old.
So it's, and it's, and it's difficult for, for guys who are
like, well, she wants me to be emotionally connected, also
wants me to be a fucking warrior.
Where's the line here? Which is why it's why I'm such a
huge fucking advocate of men's groups being in powerful men's
groups, because you can talk about your shit and your
emotional stuff in in a in an environment there and then not
need to emotionally dump on a woman.
Yeah, think kind of just like what you were sharing there was
like coming back to that same conversation.
I want to ask you a question, right?
So I don't have the answer for this.
I'm interested. And like, you know, even
listeners listening in, I am not transphobic, nor am I
homophobic, nor am I racist. I'm just like, I let people do
what they want. However, however, right, my 7
year old boy, I've got a 7 year old boy.
OK, obviously my 7 year old daughter comes to me at 7:00 and
just decided that she is not a girl.
She's decided she's a boy. What do you do?
And, and that is the, I think the problem that we're, we're
now going to have with more and more of the popular medias
talking about this, you know, and this is what I'm, that's my
concern. And I don't, maybe we need to
get an expert on this, get some people to come in and talk about
it, because I genuinely think that is, it's a real interesting
conversation and it's an important conversation because
you're going to have that, that's going to my current take
on it. This is where I'm currently at
with it. I might be misinformed and I'm,
I'm open to different views. If Effie came at 7 years old and
said I want to be a boy, I'll be right, OK?
I'd, I'd inquire. I'd let her share a story, let
her share her thinking. There would be absolutely
nothing on my part that would move into any kind of action to
help her transit transition into being a boy.
I would not facilitate that thought of a 7 year old who
still maybe even believe in, I don't know, the Easter Bunny.
It's just like, yeah, And that And that is what is absolutely
crazy. How have we got to this part?
And this again comes back to men not taking a stand and doing
their part in the home, which is the boundary set of the.
And we can talk about anger in a second as well.
But so. Yeah, I like that.
What you saying that it like through my body I'm like yeah,
no and. Like it's if my 15 year old son
who had clearly struggled his whole life with sexuality came
to me and said, I'm gay, dad, there's no, there's literally no
shame in that. I'm like, if my 1516 year old
boy came to me and said dad want to change gender identity, would
I entertain at a 1516 year old? Maybe there might be a
conversation because he's got a little bit more consciousness.
I'm like by by no means would I facilitate any action, but I
think what's happening is that so many young kids who just have
these ideas and it's also a part where the parent gives him
pandas to their kid and and. You know, because I mean,
whether this is right or wrong, let me, I'll tell you something.
I'll tell you a conversation I had with my old nursery.
Right, Right or wrong, I didn't care because it's the way I
felt. And bearing in mind Leo, he's 3.
He's not. He's not.
He's still a baby, right?
But they kept, they kept having like dressing up and get loads
of girls outfits at nursery and like, and at this particular
nursery they all wear pink. It's all women as one man,
they're all wearing pink. It's fine, right?
But I just noticed every time I was picking him up, he was
wearing like a girl's dress and or a girl's hat.
Not every time, but it was happening frequently.
And I asked him, I was like, what?
What's going on here? Oh yeah, we like to play dress
up. And I was like, listen, Leo is a
boy. I don't want him being dressed
up in girls outfits. You do it, do it with the girls.
Not a problem. But not my son.
That's that's what I mean that. This but his they kick back at
me. The women kick back at me.
Pete, come on. He's, he's, he's, he's just a
he's just a little baby. He's having some fun.
I was like, I don't care. He's my son.
I I decide, not you. I decide what goes on with him.
OK, It's my responsibility, not yours.
I don't want to say it again, but I I like the you could see
like the tension changed in the room because I wasn't having it
and. Laundry.
So that's absolutely I won't take it.
I think you've hit in there on the head, right?
And that's what I'm trying to get at.
I'm, I'm trying to understand, like a lot of men would just let
that slide. It's like it's almost like they
would, they would know it was wrong, but they wouldn't have
had that uncomfortable, right? Do you know what this is?
And then do you know what they would they'd be probably labeled
as is toxically masculine if they were to do.
I don't want to be a toxic masculine guy.
That's not it's taking a stand for strong masculinity within a
young boy. And I think this is what's
happening is that so many young boys are getting feminised and
it's like, this is another one, right?
And I don't think this is spoken about.
Try and find a single positive masculine role model on a kids
TV show. Like there's like Blippy, like
the guy is so feminine. Like he's lovely, lovely to
watch, very entertaining for young kids and softly spoken,
very camp like there's, you know, if you look at on telly,
there's a lot of camp men who so if a man is in a in a position
of kids entertainment, he's like he's been camp, he's been
sometimes very feminine, but you don't see strong male role
models for for boys on the telly.
And I actually, as soon as I what I worked this out, I was
like, I started seeing it everywhere You'd see sometimes
camp, sometimes gay, sometimes feminised man in front of kids.
I'm like this, I just think this is not good.
This is not, this is not what I want my girls to see.
I want my girls to see strong, powerful men because I think
that strong, powerful men are going to help them become
strong, powerful women. And, and this is like, I want to
move the conversation because what I really didn't want to
happen in this podcast, I come across as a transphobe, a
homophobe. I'm not.
I think let everyone be who they want to be.
But in the formative years of my children growing up, they need
to see a strong, powerful man set in boundaries, having hard
conversations, doing the right thing.
And that is where the void is right now.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And but it starts with the men growing up.
Yeah. And I think this is what I think
this is what actually has happened is women have actually
become way more powerful. They've taken like, you know,
you've seen mentioned it, they've had their Oprah moment.
They've really stepped into their own power.
I love that. Like I am a huge advocate for.
Is that am I was it being? Powerful.
I want yeah. Like I think it's it's going to
be if. I think it's sexy.
I'm like, I'm fucking. I'm like that.
It's fucking. When I see a powerful woman on
that, it's fucking sexy. I like it.
But but I think the opposite is happening for men is that women
have stepped into their power. Men have not stepped into theirs
or even held that even held their ground.
They've actually atrophied. Yeah, because they don't know
how, because many, many men don't know how to.
And so it's, it's, it's an avoidance thing because that
because there's multiple areas where they need to step up, step
up, whether it's in a relationship in setting strong
boundaries or, or, or just like creating the strength in that
relationship, or whether it's in business, going out and growing
a business. But but rather than going out
and growing a business and doing the income generating
activities, for example, they go and procrastinate and do
something else, fucking watch porn or watch Netflix or scroll
on social media or do admin work or do things that do not relate
to actually growing the business itself.
It's an avoidance technique because it's boyish attitude.
Whereas if it's like if you're coming at it from a masculine
attitude, it's like the masculine is doing everything in
his power to grow the business, not not avoiding it at all
costs. Same in in relationships.
It's, it's the same thing. If he's got boyish tendencies,
he'll go out the relationship detached, not not step into hard
conversations, be emotionally distant and so forth.
Whereas if it's a man, he's going in masculine energy, he's
coming, he's, he's coming in. He's holding the boundaries,
holding the space. He's creating the love.
Yeah, and and I think that's one of the points that I was
thinking of having talked about is that actually I'm a really
loving father. Like I'm really, really loving
with my girls. I'm I can imagine so many guys
out there would be the same, you know, like, but very, very
tactile cuddling kid. My kids all the time.
I say I love them all the time. And I wonder how, and I, and
this again, coming from a place of not knowing, I wonder how
much of this gender identity crisis that we've got going on
is coming from a lack of love from a strong father.
Like genuine, like, you know, we joke about daddy issues for so
many people, but how many how many problems are we seeing in
this, in this common? But you know, in the moment
right now, which would would have been solved by a young boy
or a young girl just having a strong male role model, It was
physically who was emotionally there.
And I just think that that's one, again, one of the issues.
And so many men do not know how to be loving because they're so
worried about it. So they're so locked up in their
own heads and they're disconnected from their bodies.
They're so committed to being the warrior who just goes out
and works. They're exhausted when they get
home. There's now like a perpetual
cycle of more and more kids having a disconnection from a
loving father. Yeah, it it is a.
Vicious cycle because in a, in the majority of men's heads,
they'll be, well, it's my role to provide and to protect.
And I like I'm, I'm going to go out and I'm going to make the
money. I'm going to, I'm going to build
my career. I'm going to build the business.
And part way, you know, in to do that is to work, work over work
over work. Yeah.
But also also what happens that. Yeah.
Like the after effect of that is
then they're not there emotionally.
Yeah. But also find it.
Hard to be there. Emotionally, as you said that.
You know, a man's role being to provide and protect like that's,
you know, the, you know, the socially Dr. role for a man
provide and protect. It's not so much protecting just
from physical violence and you know, people like intruders in
the home or it's actually to protect your kids from
psychopathology. And and do you get me?
Like it's like it's for your dad to say, Hey, listen, this is
like, we're not going to entertain this.
You know what's going on here? And I and I get I think this is
what's, you know, I'm checking in my own bias and prejudices
and all this sort of stuff. As we're talking about this is
that so many probably parents in the past have been dismissive of
things like gender identity struggles.
We've had parents that have been racist.
Like I know, I know, I've got mates and they would definitely
say my parents were racist. My parents were racist.
They were white supremacists, racists because they'd lived in
a certain part of the world. It was just white supremacy.
They, they were not exposed to racial inequality because like
they lived in a white area of the world.
They just didn't have that experience.
And they don't like so many people have been wounded with
such a bad past. It's almost like we won't have
this conversation. And this is what I'm I'm really
in at the moment. I'm trying to understand more
and more about and how it relates to what I can be as a,
as a dad. And what triggered me the other
day, it was, it was actually really interesting.
I was going through Instagram and I'm seeing more and more of
this soft parenting. So it's this idea of soft
parenting. No yelling, like getting down to
eye level, being really commutative with your kids,
never raising your voice. I'm like, is this fucking is
this good? Is this good that my kid is not
being exposed to a yelled voice, like a raised voice?
What kind of kid am I going to create if they honestly?
And so this is what my thinking is right?
So I come from a family where there was so much fighting,
there was so much yelling between my parents.
Like yelling was a really and you know, and there was there
was actual physical violence. There was physical violence,
there was yelling. It was chaos.
However, I know now like. I'm probably still working
through it now as well, but it's like.
Has it made me better at? Dealing with conflict, I I'm
definitely more resilient, but imagine a kid that's never been
yelled at, goes into a workplace, goes into the
military, and all of a sudden gets yelled at.
They're going to go to pieces. So is the lack of yelling going
to create strong kids? It's just like, I don't know is
the answer. Like honestly, I don't know.
Well, I I. Literally this happened a couple
of days ago. I'll give you a story. 2 days
ago, listen, this literally the security guard came over, two
women came over. This is in public.
So I picked up Leo from nursery. He's running around like a
lunatic in London and he's gone to go into one of those like
evolving doors. They go round in circles.
And it's far and they're. Fast, right?
And because it's rush hour, there's loads of people around
and he's run ahead and he's tried getting in this door and
he stopped like last second fallen over shoes.
His shoes come off and I've I've just walked over very casually
and I'm like, right, pick up your shoe and he's in he's like
he's all shocked and I'm like pick up your shoe, put it back
on. Now come over here.
Let's have a conversation about this.
And so I'm being very stern with him.
I'm like, dude, second time you've done this, he tried doing
it the day before as well. Second time you've done this in
the frustration. In your voice, Yeah, I'm like
I'm. Not accepting this.
Now, you see, you could really hurt yourself.
And I've had my voice is raised and being very, very stern.
People are watching two women run over.
Is he OK? Is OK, Is OK?
Is he all right? Is he all right?
Is all right? And I was like, he's fine.
He needs to learn because they're trying to, they're
trying to pick him up and just put the shoe back on for him.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Do not put the shoe back. Like, that's his role.
It's not your role. No, it's not my role.
He'll put his own trainer back on security guards now.
Come over. Everything all right over here.
And. And I'm like, I'm in the zone.
And I've looked at the guard. I'm like, everything is fine.
I'm disciplining my son. And.
And the security guard's like, sorry, Sir.
Yeah. Just just just walk.
Just watch the shows, right? It's like, I think that's, I'm,
I'm very, very comfortable with doing that privately and or
publicly, yeah. And and and.
Keeping my voice loud, stern. He needs the.
The boy needs to learn. It's my duty to take it.
It pains me inside because I want to give him a cuddle.
I want to give him a kiss. He's crying.
I just want to hold him. But I know he ain't going to.
He's not going to learn that way if I give him all this like
feminine. Oh, don't worry, baby.
Let me put your shoe back on. Come here.
Give me a cuddle. Just like those two women want
to do. He will do not learn.
They go, oh, actually I've got love after I made a fuck up.
Maybe I'll just do that again. Yeah.
He doesn't get away with that with his dad.
No, I I think that. Gets love afterwards, so.
Afterwards, after, after the effect, after he, like we've
acknowledged it, we start walking home.
I've stopped him again on the bridge and like, right do it,
let's have a conversation right you.
Remember. What happened just then, like,
like, do you, do you understand where you went wrong?
And he's like, yes, Daddy, I'm like, listen, man, I love you
with all of my heart. You were everything to me.
And the reason that we have those conversations is because I
love you so much. So like after like everything's
calmed down and he's like, I'm not dude, I love you, mate.
You know that I think what's interesting.
Like if we were to just break down that though, you have got a
handle on your safe anger. And this is what I kind of like,
this is what I've alluded to and is that so many men don't have a
handle on their anger. So what a lot of say the last 20
years, 30 years, 40 years, more men did not have a handle on
their anger. Like there's been so many, like
I would say a weak man, a weaker man, a weak man who hasn't got
the psychological strength to to contain his anger in a powerful
way and demonstrate safe anger has led to this problem.
That's what this problem is being caused.
There's so many women and men that have been wounded by men in
that situation who would have not only disciplined them,
probably physical violence, smacked them on the arse and
then withdrawn the love afterwards as well.
And so it's, it's almost like not only have I made a mistake,
then I've had a load of abuse, then I've actually had love
withdrawn. That would be the pattern I
think. And I think that that that
demonstrates there is that one of the things that we can hope
for for men is that they actually find a place where they
can start to transform their relationship with anger.
So in those kind of situations, they can be a stronger man.
They can be loving and firm, like firm and loving.
Like Robert Glover talked about that.
It's like, it's like you can be very firm and very loving.
And it's the same with my girls. So when I wrote on this guy's
post, you said, you know about yelling because he put this post
up and it was about these kids saying what's the one thing you
hate your dad doing the most? And they all said when he yells
at me, when he yells at me, when he yells, I was like, oh,
fucking course. They're going to say that.
I was like, what? What's the issue?
The course? They're not going to enjoy being
yelled at. Nobody enjoys being yelled at.
But, and I put in my comment, what happens if my kid is about
to cross a busy road and run out into the road, I'm going to
yell. Do you know what?
I'm going to yell hard because I want it etched into their
conscience, consciousness that that is not safe.
And I think that this is the problem that we're having is
that again, the feminine is leading that it's like, oh, are
you OK? They don't remember that.
No it doesn't. You know, so it worries.
Me, it does worry me because like this we have and we're
breeding a generation of lazy of sick of psychopathological
children because this is not in place and it's I actually think
it's men's fault Yeah, well, well, if.
We if we go back to the what we said at the start, weak men
create hard times. And we actually talked about
this on the Awaken man and Herok man very, very recently in the
what are most men seek now that it's hedonistic?
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's it's.
It's the fun stuff. It's the, it's the, it's the
fancy stuff. And listen, I fucking love all
that stuff. But but it there's a lot of
hedonistic. I want joy, I want fun, I want
excitement, I want happiness. When I, when I talk to so many
guys, I'm like, which I want. I just want happiness, OK?
That is, it's nice. We all fucking want that.
But the reality of life is that it's fucking well we know Phil
starts at this hard work. It's uncertain, it's painful.
That's that is the reality. But when all when we are when
men are seeking joy, excitement, happiness, hedonistic pleasures,
erotic pleasures, sexual pleasures, and that's like all
we're going towards. Yet life is giving us something
very different. Men will just retreat.
And this is the other thing is that we don't grow from all
those things. Happiness.
Excitement. Joy, nice cars, Rolex watches,
yada, yada. The things I I've got those
things, but I don't grow from them.
I don't, I don't. I grow from the fucking hard
times. I grow from the the from the
pain that I go through. I grow from when I do this inner
work that we talk about so much and we do on the Awaken man,
which is incredibly hard because you face your darkness, You face
all the shit that we typically avoid as guys that's incredibly
painful. But I grow exponentially from
it. And then it's like my anger, my
anger is safe because I've done that work.
Yeah. And then I think and going back
to like, how do men tip this point where they can become the
man that can protect their kids, psychopathological, you know,
mishaps. How would they become the man
who can protect and serve their communities and lead their
teams? How do they actually, one of the
first steps is actually build a better relationship with anger
because anger is the boundary setter.
And if you haven't got a good relationship with anger, you
will have weak boundaries. And I think a lot of this, this
psycho, you know, this, these issues in society that I've
mentioned and talked about in this pandromic event is from a
lot of men. That's not saying no, this is
enough. This is not, we're not taking
this conversation any further. And I don't think it's
oppression of, of people's expression of who they are and
who they want to be. I just think there's, it's about
the fringes about some of the people that are struggling and
confused will no longer be confused.
They'll be so much better informed and they'll have a much
more supportive network of of parents and people around them
if they choose in good time to make educated decisions about
what they want to be and who they want to be.
And I think that's what I really want to see change.
And like, that's what saddened me, as I, you know, immersed
myself in like learning more about this stuff is the amount
of just absent men. And then so like, here's here's
the thing. I think this is where it gets
confusing as a guy even going to be listening to this podcast.
Like, how do I even start doing that work stuff?
You can literally go to the Awakened Man.
You know, a lot of the stuff, the conversations every day, a
lot of the stuff that we talked about on Heroic over the past
has been is all about this kind of informing yourself so you
actually build up a better picture of masculinity.
And masculinity isn't just this rah, rah, angry, aggressive.
It's not. It's having a healthy
relationship with things like anger, a healthy relationship
with no having hard conversations, leading from a
place of certainty and power, having a really polarizing
experience with with the feminine.
Like all of those things are things that every day gets
talked about on Heroic man, right?
Yeah, but. It's all 11 big element here.
It's for a man to have something to believe in like that.
He like he believes in something or some things and is not afraid
to talk about it, even if it is polarizing, even if it does piss
people off, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea.
But he's fucking passionate about it, and he's not afraid to
talk about it. Yeah.
Well, that's we've. Done with this podcast today you
know, I was like, want to have a conversation about it It's
missing it's. Missing from so many men like
having something that they believe in and going after it,
yeah. Do you know what I think
actually one of the big things that if you're a guy listening
to this and you're worried about this conversation, reach out to
Pete on the Awaken Mount. Because what I think is really
important is more guys get the support to navigate these kind
of problems. Like if you've got in issues in
your home where your kid or and you just don't know how to talk
about it. Like if your kids going through
some sort of gender identity crisis and you and you just
don't have a place to talk about it, reach out to a group of men.
Like, honestly, like a group of men will help you navigate that
because it will help give you the tools not just for you to
have pragmatic conversations with the people that you love
and you lead, but it'll also give you a better, a better,
like, place to go and talk about the experience you're having as
you're navigating that. Because this kind of thing
happening in your home, it's incredibly taxing.
It's incredibly hard to deal with.
I was speaking to a client the other day, and it's one of the
hardest things he had. When his son came out as gay, he
said, honestly, it was like, it was a really hard experience
because nobody turned round to me and said, how are you getting
on with this? Because it was a big thing for
his son. He said, like, you know, my
son's just come out as gay. And I just said to him, like,
and how are you? How are you finding that?
And he goes, Ben, you're the first person to ask me that.
Yeah. And he was really upset.
He's like, no one has bothered asking me because I'm the guy.
He he's like I'm the oppressor. Yeah, and that's that's that's
how guys get isolated. That's how they they start to
feel lonely. It's like fucking no one's no
one's asking me about this. Why is no one asking?
You seep into loneliness. Yeah.
And it. And it what was really
interesting, he said. I am, he said, because his son
was most worried about telling him he's been made out to be the
bad guy that that he ever was waiting on.
What did your dad say? And.
He was the most. Accepting of it.
He knew it was coming. Like he said he knew it was
coming. But he said what was really sad
and what he felt sad and lonely about is that everyone thought
that he was going to act in a certain way and he felt so
isolated and he couldn't talk to anyone about it.
And I was like, that's just, that's just interesting.
And that's why I think, again, I want to have this conversation
because guys need to know how to wade into these conversations.
Actually, we had we did a podcast called How to Have Hard
Conversations with Partners. I think that's a great podcast.
We could probably revisit that Archie party.
Yeah, we will do. And these are not.
Yeah, we can do AV two. Yeah.
OK. I think let's, let's, I think
what? What's what actually what
insight I came into this podcast just wanting to talk about this,
not fully understanding the territory, wanting to have this
conversation. What's what's the insight you've
had and I'll share mine. I think the.
The insight that I've had is the I am, I'm actually just fucking
proud of the work that I am personally doing.
That is like, it's like the way that we've been talking in.
There's so much that I am now doing.
That's right. And just a few years ago, it
wouldn't have been this way. It had been fucked.
And there's so much here that I'm not doing and I'm doing
that's wrong. So that yeah, that's my insight.
The insight is the continuous work here because it don't fuck
it. Stop.
It's not like a 12 month thing like you do it and you completed
it. It's it's just a continuous
commitment to the deep inner development because because
ultimately that's what's going to lead to Leo growing up to be
to be a great man and and to be able to navigate the world of
whatever state that it's in. Yeah, I think.
I made the link because I was, as you were talking, actually,
it was like my kids seeing a guy who is able to be safe with his
anger, who's loving and firm and everything that a man should be
in and should be, I believe should be in a family home is
imperative. It's like I didn't realize how I
was trying to work out why I was so passionate about watching all
this stuff about vocalism, gender identity crisis, like
the, you know, the movement of the trans movement.
And like, why it's been so widely accepted and widely
publicized and why so many people are afraid of talking
about it is that I didn't realize it because.
Because so much of it comes from how important it is to be a
strong man in today's world. Yeah.
Absolutely, Ben. Thank you mate.
Good conversation Team joining us next week.
Also team two things. Number one, I have an event in
London, December 14th and 15th. There are 40 men coming.
It's the perfect space to have this deep conversation and that
should do your personal work here with me.
There's still tickets left on that.
Number two, Heroic man.com if you want to sign up to the event
and if you want to join one of the memberships and do this sort
of work, Catcher next week on the next episode.