Andrew Tate and the psychologist that interviewed him and got
into his brain. David Sutcliffe joins me on
today's episode. We're going to talk Tate.
We're going to talk modern masculinity and the challenges
that men are facing right now. Enjoy the episode, chaps.
It's got some gold in it. David, welcome into the podcast,
mate. How you doing I'm?
Good, happy to be here. Good.
So you're all the way in Mexico City?
I'm all the way in London. We were just discussing that.
It's nice and grey here and you've got a bit of sun over.
There it is sunny in Mexico, although where I am it, it's
been raining. It's the rainy season.
It rains every night, which is just delightful because you wake
up and everything feels refreshed and and then sleeping
in the rain is just incredible. So have it all here.
Amazing, mate. Let's let's jump in because I
want to talk about at least I'll start with the interview with,
with Tate. So that's a popular interview is
6/6 and a half, 6.7 something like million views.
And I've watched that interview twice, once recently and once
when you first released it. Super, super interesting.
And I, and I feel for the first time with Andrew that you pulled
out some more of his vulnerable sides and more of his playful
side. And there were some really
interesting points that you pulled out of them there.
But here's one that I get a lot. And I actually get like when,
particularly with ladies, when they, they see the work that
that we do guys. And Oh, you, you like Andrew
Tate then. And I'm like with Gov and I'm
like, no, not really. But I mean, Andrew's got a lot
of good, good points about him. But my question and, or, or my
thoughts that I'd love to hear from you is when guys, whether
they're in their 20s or in their 30s or 40s and they're engaging
with polarizing figures like Tate, how do they do that but
without losing their own sense of direction?
That's, that's a great question. Listen, I don't think anybody
should adopt another man as their guru.
I think it's important to take information from all kinds of
people. And Tate certainly has a lot of
very interesting things to say. He has a powerful message and
he's got his own perspective, his own, his own point of view
that may not be right for for everybody.
So I think it's important to listen to yourself.
I mean, ultimately, all self development should be about
learning to trust yourself, about learning to know yourself,
understanding what you want, how you relate to the world, what it
is that you want to give, where you're oriented.
If you're following some protocol, some somebody else's
thing. Like even with Andrew Huberman
and all the information that he comes, this is the optimal
morning routine. You know, I, I think, and I say
this to all my clients, that you, you have to find your own
way. I mean, that's what we're what
empowerment truly is like. You have to find your own way
of, to navigate it for yourself. So it's important to take
information from all kinds of people, but ultimately develop
your own thing. So that's a hard thing to do
when you're young and you're vulnerable and you don't know
what the hell is going on. And maybe you grew up without a
father. And then you see somebody like
take come along and he's got such a powerful message and he's
so emphatic about it and, and persuasive.
It's, it's easy to get hooked into that.
And there's some danger in that certainly.
And I think that's why people are are critical of tape.
I don't, but I don't, I don't think you should follow anybody
blindly. And that that's the message that
I'm trying to articulate to people.
Even, you know, when I'm working with them, it's like, here's
what I have to say. Take her to leave it, take
what's useful, throw away the rest.
So, yeah, I mean, that's all I would say about that, I think.
Yeah, I mean, because there are there are a lot of young guys
that are idolizing Andrew and, and, and are following him And
what why do you think that is? Well, I think that he men have
been demoralized by the culture. I don't, I don't think that that
this, you know, the war against men.
I, I think that that's real toxic masculinity.
This, this phrase, this ubiquitous phrase, you know,
which they claim doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic, but
that's how it sounds. That's how it feels to people.
And especially if you're a young person, that's, that's the
message you get. There's something wrong with you
being wanting to be, you know, aggressive or dominant, wanting
to win, wanting to accumulate money and, and have cars and,
and all of that. And, and, and of course there's
a shadow to all of it. But I think because men have
felt, yeah, demoralized, they felt shamed, excluded, made bad.
And I think Tate speaks to that take, stands up and says this is
what I think, this is what I believe, this is what it is to
be a man. And I think that resonates for a
lot of people because it makes them.
It makes them feel empowered in a place where they've been
otherwise shamed. Yeah, yeah.
And a lot of the guys that we work with within right man
Workman, probably like 90% of the guys are mid 30s, mid 40s
that, that, that sort of range. So it isn't just young guys, but
there is a big confusion as to what it, what it means to be a
man like into the like now. And, and a lot of guys are very,
I want to say scared, but they're definitely like, they're
treading on the lines of caution as to what do I, you know, do I
assert my needs? Do do, do I speak up?
Like and if I do that do I come across as toxic?
What the fuck? Yeah.
Am I being too feminine? Am I being too masculine?
I fucking don't know what to do so I won't do anything.
Yeah, yeah. And again, I, I understand that
it is confusing times. You know, if you think about
whatever 50 years ago and beyond, men's role in the
culture in the family was really clear and obvious, provide and
protect and that was it. Loving your wife and children
was kind of optional in the sense because, because we were
just trying to survive and get by.
And now that we're in a different phase of, of
development, different evolution of, of society and you know,
women are out in the workforce and taking their place.
I, I think a lot of men and myself included, just like,
what, what am I doing? What, what's, what is my role if
I'm not providing and protecting for my woman, for my family?
What, what am I actually doing here?
And I think it becomes very confusing.
And, and I think the, as I said, I think there's been a lot of
negative pushback against men and, and listen, in some ways
for good reason, you know, men have abused their power.
But I think that the patriarchy, quote UN quote, the patriarchy
is just the natural order of things.
And people don't like to talk about that.
They don't want to admit that. But I, I don't know too many
women that don't truly want to be led by a man.
That's where they, most of them at all feel most comfortable,
most relaxed, most free. And, you know, obviously the
dynamics have changed, but I think it's important for men to
hold on to the goodness of what that is.
I mean, patriarchy's got a, a, a bad rap.
But really at its core, what are you there to do?
You know, you create the structure, you create the
boundaries, you provide the safety and you provide and you
protect. Well, that's a noble thing, if
you think about it now it, it can become distorted and become
tyrannical. And it has and that's why the
pushback. But at its core, at its root,
it's, it's, it's divine and it's good.
And so reminding men of that, that really what what is their
role is to be of service and from that place and that there's
a responsibility that they have to lead.
Even if you are not seen, understood, appreciated, you
have to continue to lead. Excuse me in in your way.
Also, I think it there is an evolution happening where where
men do need to come more in touch with their feelings to
understand themselves emotionally in a deeper way.
That's what I was trying to get to with Tate, that understanding
yourself emotionally is an asset.
It gives you more power because you're more present.
And the more present you can be, the more of service that you can
be. And if you're repressing your
emotions, you're going to act out in distorted and destructive
ways. So I think men are in a in a
process of, of learning how to do that.
And I think unfortunately, a lot of the psychothera
psychotherapeutic community, for better for worse, is it's
dominated by women. I mean, that's just a fact,
right? Eighty, 7080% of psychologists
are, are women. And so there's a, a bias that's
inherent. I went through that in my
training and I confronted it. I confronted the, the school.
I said, hey, there's a, there's a female bias here.
You guys, you don't really understand men.
And there was a lot of pushback against that.
People were upset and felt attacked and, but in the end,
they, they started to understand that, that I was actually right,
that I, that I had a point. And of course, of course, any,
if you have a, you know, if one industry is dominated by men,
there's going to be a masculine bias and an industry that's
dominated by women, there's going to be a, a feminine bias.
That's just, you know, that's fine.
But so I think it's important that more and more men like
yourself are, are getting involved in these spaces and,
and bringing their perspective forward and, and sharing,
sharing that and, and, and also claiming their authority.
Like it's, it's important that all of us should claim our
authority. I don't mean authority over, but
I mean your, your personal authority and that that you know
something and there there's impulses and instincts that you
have and they're there for a reason.
And it's important that you obey them, Listen to them.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what, what you, what you
said earlier about more, more guys embodying their femininity
and, and, and embodying feeling the feelings and being OK with
that. Because I and I go through this
with, with, with so many men that, that we work with, it's,
it's like, don't, I don't know how to get in touch with the
feelings. I've kind of suppressed them for
a long time. My father or father's very
emotionally detached, didn't, didn't allow us or show us how
to feel our feelings. I was like, how, how do we do
that without coming across way too feminine and going way too
far the other way? And then we're in an emotional
mess with our, with our partners telling them everything.
So is there is there a bit of a medium here?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the pendulum always swings, right?
And so there may be a period of time where men overshare, they
become too emotional because there was so much repression.
But and that's a that's a necessary part of it.
And then you come back to balance.
I mean, I did that when I first started doing this work.
I I share, I wanted to share everything all the time.
And it was in my feminine and, and bringing all of this to my
woman, thinking that it, I was being vulnerable.
And it wasn't until later that I realized that that's not, that's
not the right place to share. That's my my feelings and
emotions that I need to do that with, with other men.
And I think it's important that we stay present with our our
woman, but we have to be discerning about what what it is
that we share and when. So I think that's just a natural
process. And it's, it's a refinement and
it's learning to be discerning. But in general, I think it's
really important that men have spaces where they can express
themselves. And because there's a little boy
inside every man who was hurt, who was afraid, who was, who was
angry because of the circumstances, we all got to
some degree wounded or traumatized through a childhood.
That's just the nature of life. And it's important that those
feelings are acknowledged, known within us, and not shame, not
judged, not made bad or weak. They're just there.
They're neutral. And so having a place where you
can go and express them, explore them, be witnessed, be seen, see
that other men feel the same way, I think is very liberating
and comforting for men. And then in that process, I
think they can learn to be more they they become more
integrated, become more whole, and then they can be more
discerning out in the world about how and what to share.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that, that, that I, I have,
I have found that the guys that come into our world, they, it
takes them quite some time to, to actually come in and go all
right, I'm going to, I'm going to talk to a bunch of guys about
my shit. They, they most, most guys.
But on the outside are going now that looks like sometimes it's
like a fucking cult that don't, don't want to get involved with
that. I'll just, I'll just keep it
locked up. But actually once they are in,
it's it, it all comes out. There's, there's loads and loads
of sharing there, There's, there's 2030 plus years of shame
and guilt and fear and all all the stuff that comes.
Up Yeah, yeah, I mean men and women, but we're talking about
men are all of us are walking around with all the things you
just said, shame and and fear and rage.
And that's that's rage is probably, well, shame, shame is
really at the core of all of it. But when I'm working with men,
usually the place I start is with their anger, with their
rage to give them a space to be able to express that fully,
which is usually sometimes it's righteous rage and but sometimes
it's, you know, it's masking their pain, masking their fear
and allowing themselves to express that fully in a room
full of men where there's a container for it.
What can be held because I think a lot of people feel myself
included when I started with this work, you know, if I, if I
let out everything that's inside me, I don't know, I could burn
down a city block like it, it can't be contained.
It's so big where, where it might destroy me.
I I don't know what I could do. I'll lose control.
I'll, I'll do something harmful. I'll, I'll, I'll, you know, spin
into madness. Some, something terrible will
happen. And so it's important for men to
realize that their anger and their rage can be held.
It can be contained. And that actually when it's
expressed in a, in a way that's grounded and present, it
actually brings more aliveness into the space.
And, and I think once men go through that process, they're
better able to express their, their anger and their aggression
in healthy ways, because anger is not, is necessary.
There's a reason that we are wired that way for anger.
Sometimes anger is an absolutely appropriate response to what's
happening in the environment. But you want to be able to
express that anger cleanly with intention and, and integrated
and grounded and that in that place, it, it can, it can land.
But if it's mixed up with all of our our shame and our resentment
and our pain, that's where it does harm.
Yeah, when when you're talking about expressing anger in a
container or expressing rage, you talk, are you, are you
talking more on on the long lines of like somatic embodiment
practices within therapy? Yes, I, I'm a somatic
practitioner trained in core energetics and we use different
tools to help people express things physically because you
know, exactly what you said earlier, it's like, how the hell
do I feel my feelings? You know, they're still stuck in
there forever. And so using movement really
expediates the process. So we have like big foam blocks
and Batacas that we hit with or, or you know, boxing gloves and
punching pads and all, all different kinds of things.
Or we create different psychodramas so that people can
get these feelings out. Because it's hard to just stand
there and, and feel your anger. But it's, but once you start
hitting something, the, the movement of the body releases
energy and it becomes harder to control the feelings, which is
the intention of it. It's, it's you want you.
When you begin to feel, you have to lose control.
There's no way, there's no way around it.
You, there's, you cannot heal. You cannot feel without losing
control. You have to surrender.
And if you spend a lifetime repressing your feelings,
judging your feelings, shaming your feelings, that that's going
to be a real edge. And so these physical tools,
they help expediate the process and, and it, it works.
It works every, all the men who come to my workshop, it's like
they all want to get up and hit the block.
I mean, they're terrified too, but they, they can feel the
goodness and the rightness of it.
And, and once it starts flowing, it just, it just keeps going.
And, and what inevitably happens is if they go all the way into
it, right? And that that energy is
discharged, then it takes them to their pain and.
And just for just for clarification for for the guys
listening earlier on, you talked about the psychotherapist
movement, 80% of it being female.
And so the modalities are very feminine.
And what you're talking about here this more like somatic
energetic. Would you say that's more that's
this is more of a masculine way to practice therapy?
No, I'm not. Women have just as much
aggression as men and they just, they're carrying just as much
rage. So the, the, the, the work that
I do is, is equally suitable for men and for women.
I I think it's. Men are really drawn to it
because of the physical. That's why I was drawn to it
because of the physical nature of it.
I mean, talking about your feelings, you know, mapping your
consciousness, understanding, oh, this is what happened to me
in my childhood And that's why I am the way that I am and why I'm
struggling in relationship and, and all of that, like mapping
that is, is really important and that, but really is, I think
the, the purpose of, of most psychotherapy.
But intuitively, I think we know until we unlock our repressed
feelings, not much is going to change.
And for men who are less interested in talking about
their feelings and more interested in just getting into
the expression of it, I think this work is, is very, very
attractive to them. I know that when I have and I'm
a, a room full of men, there's going to be much less talking
than if I have a room full of women.
And that's not to judge or compare.
It's just that men and women process emotions differently.
And so there's a liberation when men can get into a space with
just men and allow themselves to, to feel the all of this, you
know, shadow material and which they may not do in the presence
of, of women. It doesn't feel safe for them to
express that in in the presence of women.
Yeah, yeah. And I can, I can, yeah.
Talk about somatic work and embodiment work and energetic
works. I too, I've gone through plenty
of that and found it extremely beneficial.
Like the, the, the talking side has been good, like you said,
just to, to map and understand, but to actually get the, get it
out of my body. The, the, yeah, the somatic work
like very, very good for me. And what you said earlier about
control and letting go, and I see this with a lot of guys and
this, this has probably been my biggest work this year,
actually. It's just surrendering more to
life, not, not just not just in somatic work, but just life as a
whole, the surrendering to what's what's going on, right
And and just not trying to control everything, including
the the shit, whether that's it that we've got in London, right.
What would you say to because actually what Tate talks about
it going back to his interview, he does talk about control that
it like it seems as though he's a very control.
He likes to control a lot. He likes that certainty of I am
in control. But what what we're talking
about here is also the element of surrender and let go like is,
is there a happy medium there? Well.
He's not in control, is he? Well, no, it's it's.
An illusion. It's an illusion.
Yeah, it's it's an illusion. And it, it's a powerful one when
you have a lot of skills to be able to control and manipulate
the world, certainly. And but it's, it's, it's not
real. We're we're not in control,
right? Life is in control.
And our work is to surrender to that.
And once you, once you learn to truly surrender that, that's
actually when you, you, you have more control because you're in
the truth of, of what life actually is.
And then you can shape and navigate and, and with the power
of your intention, begin to direct reality.
But you cannot impose your will on life.
It's just not a thing that you can do.
Listen. And the reason that I know that
is because I tried for a long, long time and it doesn't work.
And it left me with, you know, addiction and frustration and
body pain. I didn't know any other way.
And so, you know, exactly what you're talking about.
Is, is, is what I'm also practicing.
Am I willing to surrender to life?
Am I willing to understand that there's a, a greater
intelligence at work here and that my own mind is not entirely
reliable, that I tend to rationalize and it, that if I
can let go of that and give over to this greater force, this
greater energy, this greater intelligence, God, whatever you
want to call it, that there's a, a relief and a, and a
satisfaction in that. And from that place I, I can
actually get more of what I want.
Now, that is generally not the message that is propagated in
the culture, but if you look at every spiritual teaching from
the beginning of time, that's essentially what it says.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with that.
As opposed to the the gurus in the culture telling me that I
need to go through this protocol.
And once I go through this protocol and do all of these
things, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get what I want.
There's, there's value and utility in that.
But if you think you're gonna impose your will on life, it's
not. It's not happening.
Yeah, for me personally, over the course of this year, this,
this has been my probably my deepest practice this year.
This has been the year where I've had probably the most inner
peace and arguably probably the most like chaos that's also gone
through like I got divorced this year.
Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I moved, I moved into a completely
different location. I moved house so and like, so
there's been loads of chaos, yet I've had the most inner peace
And I, I absolutely put that down to the just surrendering to
whatever's going to go on and just let go of that rather than
control. Absolutely I've got intent.
Like there's, there's intention to where I want to go and and,
and I will point towards that, but.
But where does that intention come from, right?
That's the question. Like what?
Like why do I want to do what I want to do?
Where does that come from? I don't know.
I don't know why I want to do what I want to do.
I make up reasons for it. Oh, it's because of this and
this and this, but I actually don't know truly.
And if I am I willing to give over to that, Am I willing to
give over over to the mystery? If I'm, I'm willing to give over
that my ideas and my impulses that want to come through me in
the direction I want to go into my life is actually it's
something else, something greater than me.
And I can surrender to that as opposed to surrendering to my
own mind and my own ego. You know, my intentions, you
know, I want them to be aligned with the deepest part of myself,
not with my ego. And I feel like when they are,
then I'm, I'm, I'm in the flow, right?
I'm aligned and then things just happen magically.
I mean, this is, this is the feminine imperative.
Like, you know, just do it. OK, that's good.
I get it, you know, it's, it feels good.
I'm going to get up, I'm going to go work out.
I'm going to push myself. That's necessary.
The masculine is important. But what if I just allow what if
I let it come to me? Because if I'm honest with
myself, almost all, yes, the discipline that I've shown in my
life and, and, you know, taking care of myself and doing all the
things that that's, that's a part of it.
But if I'm honest with myself, all the good things in my life
somehow came to me. This, you know, I got an e-mail
out of nowhere or this when I was an actor, this audition and
just at the right time that there's a magic to life if we
surrender. Yeah.
You know, I'd never thought about that before what you just
said a minute ago about, yes, you have intent, but where's the
intent coming from? Never.
It's like the net. It's like just going a little
bit deeper on on that intent that.
Yeah, absolutely. That is the magic.
Because I hadn't thought about where that intent is coming
from. Yeah, that's the mystery.
Yeah, it's all a mystery. We don't know.
We don't know anything. We don't know why we're here.
We don't know what this is. We think we know.
And, you know, we have science and philosophy in a, in a way to
try to understand life. But they're, they're all just
stories. They're all narratives that,
that, that we use to comfort us. And they, and I'm not saying
that they're not true, they're directionally true.
But it's, you know, we live in the, you know, for lack of a
better term, you know, we live in the simulation, right?
We live in the narrative, but there's something underneath
that's driving all this, right? There's a, there's a, a kind of
like, as I said earlier, intelligence and energy that's
beyond us. And, and we've, we touch into it
at different moments, you know, like, you know, the, the point I
made to take the interview, it's like when you're boxing, when
you're totally dissolved into the moment, there's a kind of
intelligence that wakes up inside you and you, you, you
know what to do. You know, you miss the punch,
you know, by just a, a fraction of a, of an inch, but you don't
know why. You don't know where that
instinct is coming from and, and that, that, that intelligence
of, of the body of the spirit is available to us at all time.
And so really my, my work and where I'm at now, it's about
that, like, how do I connect to that?
How do I connect to, to flow? How do I surrender my own mind
and fear and the, and the control mechanisms and the need
to understand, the need to know everything and let go into the
mystery and, and, and, and let that mystery unfold?
It's also it's, it's isn't, doesn't that sound more
interesting? It doesn't sound more exciting.
Like, you know, for me, for me, it's scarier, definitely
scarier. But to me, it's more exciting
and more interesting to live that.
David, you're the, you're the, yeah, she's, you're the second
person that I've spoken to today.
I did another podcast interview earlier.
We're a very similar sort of conversation actually.
And I'm, and I'm thinking, is it just that because I'm on that
this, this I'm gearing into more of a spiritual journey and more
of a journey of, of letting go. And is it that I am just
attracting those sorts of guys into my life like me and you are
having a conversation now and other conversation earlier with
another guy or, or is it that that is the way that the world
is gearing to that and it's becoming a bit more popular.
What do you think? It's probably both.
I think people are waking up to these ideas again, these ideas
have been around forever. But I also think, you know, the
Enlightenment we in science and rationality, which was great,
which was important. I think we threw out a lot of of
this more feminine way of existing.
Yeah. We threw out the intuition and,
and God really, I mean, more and more people are coming back to
God in some, in some way, you know, wanting to connect to
their spirituality. Why?
Because they can do just like your story.
They, they feel unfulfilled, right?
They're a slave to their own ego.
And and then they hit a roadblock.
They get what they want, they get the ego gratification, they
get the money cars, they get the the nice girl, all of that.
But then they're still unfulfilled and they go
searching for something else. So I think it's an epidemic in
the culture. We've reached peak materialism
and you realize it doesn't, it doesn't matter, you know,
billion trillion dollars, 10 Ferraris, none of that matters
if I don't have inner peace. So where do I find that?
Well, you're only going to find it by connecting to God, to
spirit, to something greater than yourself.
And so I think that's why so many people are are talking
about this right now and that we can see in the world what
happens when you are disconnected from spirit.
You are a slave to your ego, and that ego ultimately will seek to
destroy and control and manipulate out of fear.
Yeah, yeah, Is where where's fear useful for us like as guys?
I mean, obviously we have a, an instinct for fear.
You know, you see a, a lion and that fear response kicks in and
you have a physiological response and you can run faster
and are stronger and your reflexes become attuned.
All of that is, is really, really good.
So I, you know, I think we should pay attention to our fear
always, but we want to be discerning about, you know, the
where it's coming from. You know, I mean, for me, fear
is at the root of all our self-destructive tendencies
because again, we tend to underestimate the impact that
our childhood had on us. It's very hard to take ourselves
back as men and remember what it was like to be a young,
vulnerable, open, helpless little boy.
Most of us have had to cut off from all of that.
And most of us did not get the nurturance, attention, care,
protection, understanding that we need it.
And so many of us cut off from those vulnerable feelings.
And when your father say is not present for you, whether that's
physically or otherwise, you can't feel the father, well,
you're not going to feel safe. And I think a lot of a lot of us
grow up. I know I did, with a lot of
fear. I was scared all the fucking
time. And I had to obviously there was
what could I do with that fear? I had to disassociate from it,
right? I can't, I can't live in that
perpetual state. But the the truth is, I think
most men are afraid a lot of the time.
I mean, that was the first thing that that happened in the Tate
interview. You know, it's just I really
pressed him. He's like, I'm having these
nightmares. And that's fear.
It's like, yeah, it's fear. And he landed in that.
Like he admitted that he was fear and then he immediately
turned it into, well, fear is good.
I use fear and I want to be afraid.
You know, which was OK, You know that he's very good at
rationalizing everything. But the truth is what he
admitted is that he's afraid. It was jail was fucking scary.
That growing up with a father, that the kind of father he had
was scary. And what I was trying to
demonstrate to him is that, hey, man, that fear may be still
locked in your body and may be influencing the way that you see
the world in a way that's not useful.
For you, Yeah, because it's like Tate is very good at self
deluding himself. And most of us are.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure.
Oh. Yeah, I know I am.
Yeah. I know, I know.
I am he's. Just very, he's just very
persuasive. He's, he's, you know, master of,
of, of language. Yeah, but, but also, yeah,
absolutely. And but him like using his fear
in a in a way that increases his capabilities, sure.
Whereas I thought, I think for a lot of guys it will diminish
capabilities. Yeah, well, listen, what if your
if your fear is repressed, if you're not aware of it, if
you're not willing to make contact with it, if or if you
shame it in some way, what happens is you end up taking
actions in the world to unconsciously avoid situations
where that fear may be provoked. Yeah.
And so you are limiting yourself.
You don't know that you're doing that because you, the mind will
rationalize. This goes back to intention.
Well, this is what I want. Well, why do you want that?
That's a, that's a very powerful question to ask somebody like
really at the root, why do you want that?
And so fear causes us to move forward certain things and move
away from other things that is not always in our best interest.
And so I think we want to hop to our fear.
I mean, anxiety and self sabotage.
I just reframe it with my clients.
It's like, OK, it's just fear. Forget about, forget about the
story, forget about the, the, you know, the diagnosis of it.
Like you have fear. That's why you're self
sabotaging. You know, you're procrastinating
because you're afraid. What are you afraid of and why?
And does that point to something back in your childhood, was
there a moment that where you got shamed or humiliated or, or
you weren't seen? And, and are you afraid of
putting yourself out there in some way?
You're afraid of what other people are going to see.
And, and those fears are very, they're irrational, of course.
So we, we tend to minimize them, but they're not irrational to
the, the little boy who had to repress those feelings.
And until we make contact with that scared little boy and, and
take his hand and with, with an incredible amount of patience
and compassion and sort of lead him back into reality, into the
world and show him that, hey, you know, you don't have to be
scared anymore. You're not a little boy.
I'm with you. I'm an adult.
I can handle this. We're OK.
Whatever you're afraid of is you're, you're going to survive
it. It's going to be OK.
But that, that is not how they feel.
So it's it, you know, from, yeah, getting in touch, making
contact with our fear, acknowledging it is crucial.
It's absolutely crucial. Otherwise we're going to, we're
stuck. We're going to act out.
We're going to delude ourselves. Yeah, there's there's there's no
way you're actualizing your potential with so much fear.
OK, out out of get in touch with our fear because it's because
it's because it's like I, yeah, I think about this in my own in
my in my own reality, even just as simple as go and go and talk
to a go and talk to a hot girl intent go and do that.
And then something comes up. No, don't go and do that.
Yeah, can you make her a reason or she's probably a bitch.
She's got a boyfriend. Yeah, we'll do it.
We'll do it tomorrow. Yeah.
Right. But it but actually at its core
it's because of some form of fear rejection, rejection
because of afraid of X and so on.
So this this happens in in every walk of life.
How do we get in touch with it? Well, you have to acknowledge
it, you know, so you have to stop rationalizing.
You have to, you have to notice your mind's ability to
rationalize. You know exactly what we talked
about. There's a pretty girl.
I want to talk to her. And then immediately when I have
that impulse, my mind can go to, well, she's, you know, high
girls usually bitches or she's got a boyfriend or I'm gonna,
you know, but it's really just a fear of rejection, right?
And we have to understand that we're that's that's what we're
afraid of. And we have to ask yourself the
question why we have to keep asking questions, right?
And without rationalizing, like, OK, I don't want to talk to that
girl because I'm afraid that she's going to reject me.
Fair enough. Hey, rejection doesn't feel
good. But what's going to happen if
I'm rejected? Well, nothing's going to fucking
happen but. You know what I mean?
It's just like, but but the fear is it touches into this place
where if I'm rejected, I'll feel like I'm nothing or I'll it'll
it'll touch into the place that I have shame about myself worth
or a feeling that I'm not enough.
That's the thing we're actually afraid to touch into.
So we have to get to the deep root of our unconscious beliefs
about ourself and come to terms with the fact that most of us
have insecurities. Most of us have questions about
our self worth and you know you could take it even deeper.
Most of us have questions about our right to even exist, to just
be here as I am. OK?
Most of us have shame about our desire, desires and impulses,
right? And so we want to really get in
touch with all of that. And it's, it's, it's, it's not
easy, it's deep, it's deep work and it's confronting.
And it doesn't, again, it doesn't make sense to the
rational mind, which is why in some sense you have to bypass, I
don't really catch how you, how you rationalize.
And then once you understand that, right, really, really
understand the deep emotional root of your fear, you can
create a little separation between you and the fear.
And once you have a little separation, you, you, you,
you're no longer identified with it.
You see the distortion, you see the lie or you see where it came
from, from your childhood and how it got twisted.
And from that place you can begin to take new action.
And, and it's in that place where you, you, because you
can't. I'd much rather if I'm going to
go off into some battle, right, I'm in the army, much more
trusting of the man beside me who says I'm fucking scared
shitless, man, This is this is insane.
We might get killed, but they're going to do it anyway.
They're going to go all in. As opposed to the guy like, Nah,
fuck this, I'm into it, we're going to fuck in.
You know, they override it. Yeah, that guy is a little scary
and it's useful, I get it. But the person you know who's
more grounded in it is actually more reliable and it is probably
going to make better decisions in the moment because they're
more connected to what's actually going on inside them,
which which in fact, being afraid in that situation is a
completely rational reaction. Yeah, yeah.
And, and just back in back into the fear and understanding the
the root, ultimately the root cause of the fear, not just the
symptoms of the fear, symptoms of the fear is that I'm not
going to go and ask the hot girl for a number.
But the root, the root cause of the fear is that actually it's,
it's rejection, back off rejection.
It's it's around that I don't feel that I'm good enough.
Yeah, if you, if you get rejected, what what's going to
happen if you get rejected? Like what's the fear?
Yeah. What's what's actually there?
Because it's not about the girl, it's not about the rejection.
There's something that the rejection means to you and
that's that's what you want to get to.
And where did that come from? When did that start?
And that's important to to go and understand that to be able
to get over it. I think so, yeah, Because it
makes you more present, right? You're in the reality of what's
what's going on. And once you understand the
mechanisms of your mind and and can be present with it and have
awareness around it, it's it's much easier to take action.
Yeah. And so that's the so, so then
once you've built the separation between yourself and this, the,
the reason for the fear as a separation there, it's then the
next step is we'll then go and, you know, improve.
Yeah, you have to, I mean, you got to get your reps in, you got
to practice, right? That's, that's really where,
where the change happens, right? So you can, you can have all the
awareness and that's great. It's important.
It's a part of it. But then you have to go do the
thing. And what'll happen is, you know,
if you do the thing over and over and over again, This is why
these, you know, pick up artist guys.
And I think it's great. They go, OK, here's to get a
group of guys together. Your day in the city, you got to
go out and you got to, you know, you got to get 10 phone numbers.
So they, you know, they have to talk to 100 girls.
And by the end of that day, they're just, they're over it.
It's like, OK, yeah, I got rejections 99% of the time.
But you know, I got, I got a number, I got 10 numbers and,
and, and everything's fine. So yeah, the practice of is is
is crucial. Yeah, yeah, because, because
actually sitting too much in the awareness.
So you're thinking, thinking, thinking, sitting way too much
in the awareness. You're actually sat.
Am I right in saying you sat way too much in your feminine rather
than leaning back into? That's right.
Yeah, that's another.
That's another trick. Oh, I I understand myself.
Therefore I'm good. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Now you got to take action. Like you have an awareness of
what your fear is about, right? You have compassion for yourself
there. You have understanding, but now
you have to go out in the world and, and, and confront it and
everybody knows. It's like the greatest
satisfaction that we we have in our lives is, is when we do
things that were scary for us and and we come out the other
side. That that for me, that's all of
the I feel the most proud of in my in my life, the things that I
did, even though I was terrified.
Yeah. Is that in in your work with
guys, where would you say do you see the most like breakthroughs
from, from a guy that's that's that's come to see you?
And then he gets he gets a big transformation.
Is it in the he's facing a fear. He proves to himself that he can
face it. Yeah.
I think that's a big one. I mean, what comes to mind right
now currently is what we were talking about earlier is in, in
relationship with women, that men have a lot of distortion
about how to be in relationship with women.
And they tend to defer, make themselves small, not say what's
true for them, you know, give over to their needs and their
preferences. And then they wonder why they're
not having success with women. Well, that's a turn off for
women. Women like assertive men, not
Dicks. While they do like assholes,
there's a reason for that, you know, because they're assertive
and they're sort of women. I mean, listen on a, on a, you
know, physiological, biological, evolutionary level, women are
turned on by dominant men. They, they want to be taken.
It's erotic. They feel plain.
So allowing that part of men to come through, reclaim the
goodness of it and to see that that women are longing for that,
even if they're afraid of it. Yeah, Even if they're afraid of
it, that's OK Let them be afraid.
If you can stay present and trust the goodness of that, then
you're not going to act out in, in, in weird, you know,
manipulative ways, which is why women are so scared of men right
now or, or turned off by men. It's, I don't believe it's
because of the Andrew Tate's of the world, because how, how, but
he's, he's, he's completely transparent.
You can take it or leave it, but he's completely transparent
about who he is and what he wants and how he operates in, in
masculine, feminine dynamics. But I think there's a lot of men
who they repress their instinct and then present a quote, UN
quote, you know, a good guy image, but they're really hiding
their aggression. And if they're hiding it, it's
going to come out in, in, in weird ways.
And women can feel that, and they don't trust it.
Yeah, yeah, it can be passive aggressive and controlling in
its own ways. Right.
Yeah, yeah, that, that, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
I, I I could probably mimic the same thing.
And the guys that come into our world is the, when they start,
even if it's just setting a couple of boundaries that they,
they just grow in their masculinity and, and they get a
lot from that. Yeah.
It's like, hey dude, it's OK. It's OK to say no.
It's OK, man. You can, you can, you can say no
and it's cool. Yeah, you can.
You can have, you know, have, have all of yourself be fully
expressed, you know, let it, let it let it out.
And you know, for me, you know, like even in my own
relationship, but in any relationship, the, the, what's
the word? I want the, the problems occur
when people are holding. Back so a little Internet
connection. Welcome to Mexico.
Welcome. Yeah, yeah.
David, thank you so much for coming on man.
I, I appreciate your thoughts and your insights, especially
the ones that just on the on fear there like there was some,
there was some good insights there for me personally.
Appreciate that mate. Yeah, no, thanks for having me.
I I really appreciate the conversation.
Great, great questions and glad you're doing the work that
you're you're doing. And I'm I'm sure you're helping
a lot of men. Yeah, yeah.
Thank you. Thank you, man.
And I I know the guys listening to it will get a lot out of it.
Fantastic. Yes, David, Cheers.
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