1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,320 Team, welcome back. I've got a great guest with us 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,560 today. Today we have Johnny Miller. 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:10,760 Johnny is an exec coach, but which is the curious part for me 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,360 is that he runs a business called Nervous System Mastery 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,200 where he helps people master the nervous system. 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,200 Johnny, welcome in mate. It's great to be here. 7 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:25,840 OK man, let's let's go straight in with this. 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,880 Talk to me about what the fuck is a nervous system? 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:33,840 Yeah, what the fuck is the nervous system? 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,320 Good question. Well, I like to think of it as 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,640 your nervous system is the lens through which you view your 12 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,120 life. So if you are in a, let's say, 13 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:50,600 regulated, kind of grounded, calm state, then you have the 14 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,320 ability to be intentional with your life like you have agency. 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,680 And on the on the flip side, when your nervous system is in a 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,280 reactive state and could be fight, flight, anger, shutdown, 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,920 collapse, it is very hard to keep that level of 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,280 intentionality with what it is that you want to do. 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,640 And living from a reactive place, it makes it very hard to 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,640 follow through with, you know, your goals, who you want to be. 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,800 And so I like to share people, share with people, a set of 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,880 tools and skills that allow them to return to that place of 23 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,600 regulation and therefore to kind of have more agency in their 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,080 lives. Yeah, that makes sense. 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,080 I and I was scrolling you Instagram and you got a great 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,560 video on there and you talk about that if there's been like 27 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:49,360 3 areas that you can be in the the red, the green and the blue 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,440 and we want to be in the in the Green Zone. 29 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,840 Can you talk about those areas and describe them to the same? 30 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,400 Yeah, totally. So the red zone is a per arousal 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,720 HYPER. This is where our sympathetic, 32 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,160 the sympathetic branch of our nervous system. 33 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,120 This is like the activation branch. 34 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,240 This can go too far outside of what is known technically as 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,280 your window of tolerance. So some degree of activation is 36 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,960 great, but if you go too far, it can turn into, you know, anger, 37 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,800 anxiety, overwhelm, basically like beyond your threshold of 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,440 to, to hold stress. And then on the other side, the 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,360 Blue Zone is known as hypo arousal with an O. 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,360 And this is basically the parasympathetic nervous system. 41 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,760 You can, you can think of this as like like the handbrake in a 42 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,560 car. If sympathetic is gas pedal, 43 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,440 hypo arousal is the handbrake. And this is, you know, we all 44 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,840 respond to intense stress differently. 45 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,120 Some people go deep into red, some people go deep into blue. 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,520 And so a blue response would be something like where people 47 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,200 choking or freezing or shutting down or emotionally withdrawing, 48 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,480 disassociating, feeling numb, like those are all like 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,000 responses of hyper arousal. It's important to mention that 50 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,560 these are both basically adaptive strategies that we 51 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,200 learned as kids. They're kind of like hard wired 52 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,880 into our nervous systems. They're not bad, but it's very 53 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,920 helpful to know like notice the signs when we're moving in that 54 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:16,880 direction and then turn into, go back into the window of 55 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,720 tolerance, which is basically the Green Zone. 56 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,440 Green Zone is when when we are able to connect with other 57 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,880 people, connect with loved ones, connect with ourselves, when 58 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,640 play is possible, creativity is possible and we're just aware of 59 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,560 our physical sensations and and we feel grounded. 60 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,200 Yeah. OK. 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,520 So it's so let's just say that like we got in an altercation 62 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:46,360 and we're having a, a heated conversation and I can go one of 63 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,440 three ways. The the Blue Zone is that's my 64 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,360 essentially my freeze. All we're all, we're all going 65 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,880 to run off and it's and I'm emotionally detaching from that. 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,080 I don't know what to do and I'm shutting down all red. 67 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,200 I get hyper angry, maybe going to go from anger to aggression 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,520 into rage. You're right. 69 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,280 And it's and it gets very. Very heated, right and, and, and 70 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,399 interestingly in if you look at like long term couples, 71 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:19,600 typically one person's reaction will tend to be red and the 72 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,079 others will tend to be blue. They kind of play well together. 73 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,520 So let's say if you were the angry person and my response to 74 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,200 that would often be the kind of disconnection, the shutdown, the 75 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,560 collapse and this almost like that feeds into each other, 76 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,520 right. So there's ways in which these 77 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,760 can into play in human relationships as well. 78 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,880 OK, So yeah, let's just, let's just talk with that for a 79 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,680 second. Then just in in a relationship, 80 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,360 it's actually very, it's very worthwhile if we're in a 81 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,680 relationship with each other, it's like me knowing how you 82 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,640 react, like whether typically we get an altercation. 83 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,600 You do go to red and typically I do go to blue. 84 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,720 And so it's worth knowing that. So then we go, I know Johnny's 85 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,880 going to flip off the the lid here and I'm going to retrieve. 86 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,480 And how do we meet in the middle? 87 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,200 Beautiful yes and and the other piece of that is building the 88 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,720 skill of what of what is what's known as interception. 89 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,960 So interception basically allows you to identify what are the 90 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,480 somatic markers or the, the, the kind of early warning signs of 91 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,440 like what is a 2 out of 10 red or what is a three out of 10 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,920 blue. And once you're able to like, so 93 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,720 maybe like a A2 out of 10 red might be, I'm, I'm noticing my 94 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:36,280 heart rate's increasing slightly. 95 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:37,960 I'm noticing there's like a little bit of tension in my 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,280 chest. I'm noticing my palms are 97 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:44,640 getting a bit sweaty. And you know, typically if left 98 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,440 unchecked, unaddressed, that might end up in like an 8 or 9 99 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,440 out of 10. And the earlier that you can 100 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,400 catch it and then from there, you know, it might just be a few 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,840 breaths. It might be you go for a walk 102 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:56,560 outside. You know, there's, it's much 103 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,040 easier to kind of divert that when it's either two or three 104 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,800 out of 10 as opposed to waiting until like the full meltdown 105 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,640 when it's like it takes, it takes a while to come back from 106 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,800 that sometimes. Yeah, OK. 107 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,920 So like what would be a a good tool here? 108 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,200 I like I've got a bit, I've got an example. 109 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,000 Great. So this so this week I was 110 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,320 having a conversation over message was someone that I care 111 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,040 about and all of a sudden we quickly got into this 112 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,800 altercation over something very very small and it was very right 113 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,440 back and forth boom boom boom, boom boom boom. 114 00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:53,900 We will definitely be here, the red and the blue. 115 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,040 What would be the best thing to do? 116 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,480 Like is there tools here to to down regulate and then to tend 117 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,240 to think like what? What would you suggest doing? 118 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,160 Yeah, yeah, man, totally. So there are, there's three 119 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,520 categories of tools that that I teach and I'll go through, I'll 120 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,760 go through 1 by 1 and and you can kind of ask me questions if 121 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,600 it's not clear. But the, the first category is 122 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:21,840 the interception I just mentioned. 123 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,240 So like literally you being aware that, oh, there is some 124 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,000 like charge in my system around this, this interaction. 125 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,360 That's like step one. And if, if people can't like 126 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,600 track that, then the rest are almost they don't matter because 127 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,320 you know, you're not even aware that you're in this reactive 128 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,240 state, right? So that's, that's the first 129 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,680 bucket and the second bucket are the, the, the kind of tool kit 130 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,600 for self regulation. Self regulation tools fall into 131 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,880 three categories, top down, bottom up, and outside. 132 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:01,040 In top down protocols, practices are things like mental reframes 133 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:07,320 could be meditation practice could be like like like I'm 134 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,440 actually angry because I really care about this relationship and 135 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,160 it's really important to me. Or it could be zooming out like 136 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:14,720 actually maybe next week this won't matter. 137 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:16,720 There's a bunch of different like cognitive reframes you can 138 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,600 do to to down regulate the situation. 139 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,800 The second bucket of bottom up tools, which are in my opinion 140 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,640 the most underutilized and the most effective using your 141 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,960 leveraging your Physiology to change your state. 142 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,840 So typically things I think breathing is the best way into 143 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,799 this. You can do things like box 144 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,320 breathing, 448 breathing, even humming is surprisingly 145 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,640 effective. It releases nitric oxide into 146 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:45,640 your system and you can hum with an extended XL for about 30 147 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,920 seconds and feel very, very different after literally just 148 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,960 30 seconds. You can feel the another 149 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,760 practice is like feeling your feet on the floor or like coming 150 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,960 into your senses. So some people use like a three 151 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:02,720 to one practice, which is like 3 things you can see two things 152 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,800 you can hear, one thing you can feel and something about coming 153 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,920 back into a senses also like a ground, some of that intensity. 154 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,600 So there's, there's various bottom up practices. 155 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,560 Well, I can kind of share more if that's of interest. 156 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,360 And then the third bucket is outside in which also includes 157 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,440 other people. So it's like you can change your 158 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,800 environment. Like we are constantly pro 159 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,560 regulating with our environment. And that's a fancy way of saying 160 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,960 like we are kind of in tune with the people and the stimuli 161 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,680 around us. So let's say you were, you were 162 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:39,000 kind of having this text message chain and you were like by like 163 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,240 a busy St. outside in London and there's like sounds and sirens 164 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,920 and like bright lights coming at you. 165 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,960 If you kind of walked into like a quiet cafe and sat down in a 166 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,000 comfy chair and like had a heartfelt conversation with a 167 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,760 friend, again, like your nervous system state would shifting 168 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,800 ground pretty quickly. So it's not about any of these 169 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,560 being better or worse. It's about like, what, what, 170 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:03,960 what do I have access to right now? 171 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,360 What, what's useful? And like, how can I stack these? 172 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,240 Like maybe you, you reframe the situation. 173 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,160 You do a humming practice and then you just like go into like 174 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,400 a slightly more chill space and like you know pretty quickly 175 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,720 your state will will downshift and then you'll be in a more 176 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,400 grounded place to then return to that conversation from a less 177 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,000 like triggered place essentially. 178 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,200 And actually notice what you, you said at the very start that 179 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,000 on self regulation, on the reframe, that the mental 180 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,480 reframe, actually the way that you frame that is quite advanced 181 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,080 in, in that you said, I really care about this relationship. 182 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,240 That's why I am feeling this way. 183 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,120 And I know this from my own experience and I know this from 184 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,160 many guys that I work with. It wouldn't be that it would, it 185 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,440 would be, well, she's fucked me off. 186 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,040 And because she's done this to me, I'm fucking pissed off at 187 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,040 her. And so it's, it's right. 188 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,440 It's like your point you're projecting and essentially 189 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,440 passing the responsibility back onto other person. 190 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,760 Whereas what you said there was very, it was a very tune because 191 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,840 it's not I, I because I care about the relationship. 192 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,600 This is I have made myself feel this way. 193 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,640 She hasn't done anything to me. Yes. 194 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,920 Yes, so, so that's another key step, which is implicit in this 195 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:33,080 is owning your own experience and choosing to believe you can 196 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,280 debate whether or not this is true, that you are 100% 197 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,520 responsible for your own experience and that no one else 198 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,280 can make you be angry, can make you be sad. 199 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,800 Like, yes, your system may be responding in a certain way, but 200 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:49,800 it's actually within your locus of control to shift how you 201 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,120 feel. And then I, I also want to add 202 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,720 like the third category of tools, I call emotional mastery 203 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,480 or emotional fluidity. And this is, this is the kind of 204 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,640 like level 10 set of skills, but to the degree to which you can 205 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,640 actually welcome and not resist the, the full spectrum of 206 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:08,960 emotional experience that's arising. 207 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,280 That is what ultimately creates freedom in, in people's lives. 208 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,720 So let's say, if, let's say, if anger was arising, like, can you 209 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,040 be with and, and welcome and feel and maybe express to some 210 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,880 degree the anger that's arising? Because, you know, sometimes I 211 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,000 see people get really good at the self regulation, like they 212 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,720 will like nail the breath work and every time anger comes up, 213 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,160 they just like self regulate it away. 214 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,440 And it's, you know, a lot of people, it's better than using, 215 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,440 say, scrolling on social media or, or drinking a beer or 216 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:40,960 whatever. Like it's, it's a healthy way to 217 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,880 self regulate. And at the same time, if you 218 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,880 don't eventually come into right relationship with your emotions, 219 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,880 then the intensity was just ramp up and ramp up and ramp up. 220 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,200 So ultimately the the real skill set is like being with and 221 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,960 expressing in a healthy way the full spectrum of these emotions. 222 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,680 Yeah, yeah. Rather than because, yeah, I get 223 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,920 that because breath, breath work is phenomenal and it's a great, 224 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,360 great tool. But rather than just completely 225 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,720 move the emotion out the way and ignore it is actually, well, 226 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,240 really feel that emotion. I actually, I've made-up a 227 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,040 recent practice. I made this up in the sauna and 228 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,880 but it's, it's been great. It's been a great tool for me to 229 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,360 regulate my nervous system. I didn't know I was doing this 230 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:28,520 until I thought about it afterwards. 231 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,920 But what I'd do, I sit in the sauna for six or seven minutes 232 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,320 and to the point where you now the sweat is dripping all over 233 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,400 my face. And normally I'd wipe the sweat 234 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,000 off, take, get it off, get it off because it's, it's 235 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,520 irritating. But I've started to practice 236 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,880 just letting the sweat drip down and then feel the irritation and 237 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,120 then enhance the irritation throughout my entire body to 238 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,640 really over exaggerate it. So I'm really, really feeling 239 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,960 that. And then zoom out and, and, and 240 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,000 completely zoom out. So I can see me, I can see the 241 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,400 sauna, I can see the the drips of sweat dripping off me and 242 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,960 know that I do have the control to agitate it or take it away 243 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,200 just with the power of my body, which has been quite a powerful 244 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,520 little thing. I might have been a solo about a 245 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,800 month ago. I love that, that, that's great. 246 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,440 And that that kind of speaks like another category of skills 247 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,720 or practices, which is I put it into the category of like, in 248 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,240 what ways can you expand your capacity for intensity, which is 249 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,280 the same thing as the window of tolerance that I mentioned 250 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,080 earlier. So if you by intentionally 251 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,440 putting yourselves in, you're putting yourself into stress 252 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,440 inducing situations that are within your control, you can 253 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,120 expand your capacity to be with that stress. 254 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,360 So you know, a classic 1 is like ice bath cold punch. 255 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,720 You like you are choosing to be in that situation. 256 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,640 You go in, your body immediately has this like intense stress 257 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,400 activation response, but you also know that you're safe and 258 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,040 you can use your breath to kind of self regulate and actually 259 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,880 relax into the intensity of the cold, which is the same skill 260 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,880 required when you're in an altercation. 261 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,840 You can like relaxed into the intensity that is the stress 262 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,680 response that is arising just as if it was a cold plunge. 263 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,440 As long as this is key, as long as you're not looped in and like 264 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,800 hooked into the story. Because if you're like telling 265 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,640 the same time, telling yourself the story that like she did this 266 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,240 blah, blah, blah and blaming that will cause this like shitty 267 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,160 loop basically. So you have to stay with the 268 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,480 sensations, both in the cold plunge and also in interpersonal 269 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,520 conflict. Yeah, yeah, that's super 270 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:48,680 powerful. Just going back to the the 271 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,440 relationship conflict again, I actually did have another 272 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,400 example actually the other day. And it wasn't, this wasn't 273 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,680 conflict, this was just a it was a strong conversation where we 274 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:01,800 were just going a little bit deeper. 275 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,200 They said something to me and I was like, oh, that's, that's 276 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:13,960 hitting, that's that's and my response was actually, can you 277 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,800 give me 10 seconds? I just need to breathe into that 278 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,360 because right now my brain is going with all these different 279 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,040 thoughts and I can't think properly. 280 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,880 But if just give me 10 seconds, I can just breathe into that, 281 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,560 I'll be able to think. And it that that really, really 282 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,600 helped. And actually just vocalizing 283 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,240 that to the other person as well, just letting them know I 284 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,120 just, I just need 10 seconds here. 285 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,360 I just need 30 seconds just to breathe. 286 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,200 So I think the communication part is just as strong to 287 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,960 communication about the other person is just as strong as you 288 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,480 actually doing the practice itself. 289 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,560 Yeah, totally. And what I noticed about that 290 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,320 type of that type of, I love that. 291 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,200 And when like when you took those 5 or 10 seconds to kind of 292 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,080 like breathe into that, I imagine that you also kind of 293 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,680 bringing your sense of like embodied awareness online as 294 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,680 well, which actually creates deeper connection in the 295 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,599 conversation as well. Because so often I do this 296 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,359 sometimes in podcasts where like I'm just up in my head and I'm 297 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,200 just like hanging ideas back and forth. 298 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,720 And I noticed and I, you know, I just had a podcast before this 299 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,040 where they got quite vulnerable and got into some emotional 300 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,760 territory. I noticed that like when I was 301 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,560 in my body and kind of speaking from like I'm aware of my body 302 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,200 and my mind and my head and the space around me that like it, it 303 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,960 felt like the connection was just more meaningful and, and, 304 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:36,960 and deeper and I, and I enjoyed it more. 305 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,400 And I, I feel like it's, you know, particularly in men's 306 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,840 relationships, we often, I, I always speak to myself. 307 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,240 I often will speak from a very heady place. 308 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,600 And it it for me, it like limits the depth that that relationship 309 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,160 can then can kind of go into. Yeah, what you just said there 310 00:17:55,360 --> 00:18:00,400 about being able to be in your, in your head, in your body, in 311 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,320 the space around you, in your awareness. 312 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,560 Essentially it's it's like it's advanced levels of consciousness 313 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,240 to be able to do that. How, how have you been able to 314 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:14,360 cultivate doing because that's super advanced to be able to sit 315 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,240 because it's, and it's super, super attractive to, to the 316 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,120 opposite sex and it's, it feels very, very safe that he is able 317 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,440 to do this and and hold this space while this chaos going on. 318 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,040 What's been your practices around cultivating that? 319 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:40,080 Yeah, so primarily going through a lot of shit is is the the fast 320 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,440 track. So I'm let's see how to respond 321 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,120 to this. So one of the frames that I 322 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:49,760 think was most helpful for me was reading King warrior, 323 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,360 magician lover, which is a fantastic men's workbook on like 324 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,760 men's archetypes, like mature masculine archetypes is 325 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,920 basically the essence of it and connecting like I, I connected 326 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,800 those archetypes like head, heart and cock essentially. 327 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,680 So head is like the magician, heart is the lover hawk or like 328 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:14,800 belly area is the warrior. And I'm noticing when I'm like 329 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,160 connected or disconnected from each of those. 330 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,480 And then if you want to, for me, the king archetype, the 331 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,440 sovereign archetype is the one that makes sure they're all in 332 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,200 alignment essentially. Yeah. 333 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,480 So I'm, you know, noticing that when I was in my early 20s, I 334 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,120 had a very strong magician. I was in the startup world. 335 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:35,080 I was like, you know, did well at school, all that all that 336 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,720 shit. And my magician was like, 337 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,520 overbearing, but I was pretty disconnected from my heart and 338 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,120 my cock. And so through, you know, a 339 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:49,440 bunch of different internal practices, men's work retreats, 340 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,200 just like self inquiry, I was like, able to get curious about 341 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,640 like, OK, what are the barriers? What is getting in the way for 342 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,520 me like inhabiting my lover from like giving and receiving love 343 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,800 or vulnerability and then like my warrior, like, why do I feel 344 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,240 scared to express my anger or to set boundaries? 345 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,720 Why am I in these like people pleasing tendencies and 346 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,640 exploring that. And yeah, I mean, I don't think 347 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,360 you ever like get there. I think it's always like, it's 348 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:24,560 like increasing degrees of achievement and unfolding. 349 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,720 But I I like that. As a framework for kind of like 350 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,240 in any moment, I can kind of say like roughly where I'm at, where 351 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:32,880 I'm at, each of those different areas. 352 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,880 Yeah, yeah. That's strong. 353 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,080 I like how I use the archetypes and I yeah, I'm very much the 354 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,320 same. But for such a long time, I 355 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,120 just, I think I'd more, I'm more or less just had armor around my 356 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,720 heart area. So then it would be like, dude, 357 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,520 just so good at the business thing. 358 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,120 And I'm like, yeah, because this guy can emotionally detach from 359 00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,880 all of this. But when it comes to the 360 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,800 relationships, it's like how we want to go deep with you and. 361 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,520 And. And actually to go to to go real 362 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,920 deep, you have to be able to take off the armor and 363 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,080 emotionally and, and get emotional. 364 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,880 Yeah, right. And be and be OK with that which 365 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,600 is the lover. And I want to like add that like 366 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,080 like it feels fucking good when that happens. 367 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,480 Like it's not for someone else in the relationship, like being 368 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,840 able to do that. It's actually like, it gives me 369 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,800 the sense of like, oh shit, like it feels really good to like 370 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,720 fully receive a compliment. You know, before I would just 371 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,280 like if someone said something nice about work. 372 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,760 I did. I it was just like, yeah, like, 373 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,480 yeah, great, thanks. Or like, no, someone else, but 374 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,160 like to let that fully land. It feels good. 375 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,480 I I guess I just wanted to like throw that in there as well. 376 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,080 Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're, 377 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,880 we're yeah, we're like preaching to the guys. 378 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,040 Yeah. I, I open up. 379 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,960 I got, I've actually, I got another, this is a question for 380 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,040 me because this is something that I'm going through at the 381 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,080 moment, right? And I don't know a lot of the 382 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,800 guys here fathers. So I have AI have a son. 383 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,720 He's he's 3 1/2 amazing. And and he's, you know, he's 384 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,360 growing so quick and a bunch of emotions and, and his, his 385 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,200 nervous system is all it's crazy. 386 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,520 It's beautiful. It's wonderful. 387 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,000 Yeah. And have you had experience with 388 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,880 guiding fathers with their children around how to help with 389 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,160 just to give them the tool set to help regulate? 390 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,120 Yeah, so I, so for context, my wife and I are, are looking to 391 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,440 start a family ourselves pretty soon. 392 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,040 And I, I was just on another men's work podcast with this 393 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,440 guy, Dan Doty, Our fatherhood unlocked. 394 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,720 And we specifically talked about the overlap between nervous 395 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,120 system regulation and fatherhood. 396 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,760 It's it's a big topic. I think what, what I'll say is 397 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,880 like a maybe an entry point to, to more like a deeper 398 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,080 conversation is that the degree to which you are able to kind of 399 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:08,120 regulate your own presence and not shame him in any way or make 400 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:12,800 any emotions wrong. That will be almost like the 401 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,880 best foundation that you can build for like having a healthy 402 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,560 nervous system that is able to have a lot like a wide window of 403 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,000 tolerance for most of us, you know, speak to myself again, 404 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,560 that wasn't modeled to us by our parents. 405 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,640 They typically punished or shamed or certainly didn't 406 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:36,480 respond well to like emotional outbursts often because they 407 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,440 were challenged by those emotions when they came up in 408 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,640 themselves. So first and foremost, it's like 409 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,960 doing the work to come into right relationship with those 410 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,680 emotions in yourself. And from that place, it's then 411 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,520 much easier to welcome it and love it when your kid goes 412 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,400 through these like emotional roller coasters. 413 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,960 And it, it's important to point out that like children between 414 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,240 the ages of like, like one and five really can't self regulate. 415 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,320 Like they don't have the, the like myelination in the nerves 416 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,600 to be able to ground themselves. So they need a, a father or a 417 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,880 mother to self regulate and to Co regulate with. 418 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,680 And that's how they learn, and that's how that wiring gets 419 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,720 built. Yeah, yeah. 420 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,160 Like I, I try with Leo and, and he has, he's good at this. 421 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,040 And I wasn't a while ago. This was like 18 months ago. 422 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,920 I was quite young. When he'd fall over or and he'd 423 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,320 start crying or something would happen, he would cry and I'd 424 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,120 start teaching him. Nice. 425 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,320 Yeah, cool. Who just like, let's just 426 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,760 breathe together, breathe in, breathe out. 427 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,040 And it's so cute when he first started doing it because he 428 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,440 didn't know how to breathe in and out through his nose or his 429 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,160 mouth. But now he's been doing it for 430 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,160 like 18 months as and he like he'll stub his toe or like even 431 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,120 he just won't get his way and he'll and he'll cry and let him 432 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,040 cry and I'm like, right, mate, let's let's breathe together and 433 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,520 he will. And you can just see him just 434 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,600 calm and he's 3 1/2 right. And he just and he just calms 435 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,480 down. So, so it's such a powerful 436 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:10,840 tool. Yeah. 437 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,000 And and so I, I love that. And the the other piece that I 438 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,800 think is worth mentioning is like kids are in some ways like 439 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,160 our teachers when it comes to emotional fluidity. 440 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,080 Like an emotion, the the life cycle of an emotion is somewhere 441 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,200 between like 10 to 20 seconds. And you see this with kids 442 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,600 because they don't have the stories or the layers or like 443 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,880 the judgement. So they'll go from like sadness 444 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,000 to like anger and then like joy and laughter in the space of 445 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600 like 30 seconds. And that's, that is what is 446 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,240 capable or like that's what we're capable of doing as well 447 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,080 when we kind of get out of our own way and we like able to work 448 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,880 through the tension and resistance that arises. 449 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,120 That's a really great point. It's a really and and and just 450 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,880 saying that like we are capable and we are also allowed to do 451 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,320 that because Leo and we were like. 452 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,600 And we were and we, we, we did at one point, right? 453 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,680 Like we were all like, you know, 1-2, three years old. 454 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,400 And that's what we were like. It just often the conditioning 455 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,280 that gets laid on during school or in those like teenage years, 456 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,560 that's when the arm ring comes up to kind of protect to a 457 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:11,960 different point. And it's not that the arm ring 458 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,800 is bad or wrong, like I don't want to shame anyone for having 459 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,960 that. It's it was necessary for that 460 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,320 time. But learning how to kind of like 461 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,760 take it off and to soften is a skill that is required if you 462 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,720 want to have like deeper connection in your life. 463 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,840 Yeah, and and difficult for a lot of guys like I'm I remember 464 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,280 about 18 months ago someone said to me, Pete, you need to soften, 465 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,320 mate. I was once fuck off start time. 466 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,640 I'm all right, mate, where I checked up need to soften and 467 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,880 unless you a couple of months ago sell it to another guy. 468 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,800 But it that's that can that can be the opposite to what many men 469 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,840 are taught to do is we're not taught to soften and society 470 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,920 doesn't teach us to soften. It's it's like it's very much go 471 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,200 out, drive direction, certainness, you know, be be be 472 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,360 the warrior really, and and and to soften is to what do we, what 473 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:10,120 do we associate soften with? Well, soft, yeah, right. 474 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,560 Penis weakness and, and, and so it's like, no, don't want that. 475 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,240 There's a lot of shame around that, so we'll just avoid it. 476 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,840 Totally. And I think something that I 477 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:29,000 want to mention is that it's, it's not easy to say like soften 478 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,840 in the same way that like if I said to you like sleep, you're 479 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,160 not just gonna like fall asleep right now. 480 00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,680 But what you can do is you can create the conditions for sleep 481 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,040 to arise naturally. And the same, the same with this 482 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,840 softening. Like softening is like the 483 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,040 natural result from a sense of like, oh, I feel safe and I feel 484 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,520 like seen in this space. I feel like I'm welcomed and 485 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,080 like all of me is welcome to be here. 486 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,640 And then like the softening happens naturally. 487 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,360 It's not like I don't do it. It's just like the natural 488 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:59,120 result of, Oh, I actually feel like safe to be here. 489 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,920 So I think like from the perspective of, of people who 490 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,760 are like, you know, trying to help friends or loved ones, 491 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,560 often it's actually more of like just fully welcoming them and 492 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,840 not needing them to be any different. 493 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,960 Because actually if we're saying to someone else, like, oh, you 494 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,440 need to be soft, we're kind of speaking to ourselves. 495 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,040 It's kind of like a projection. Yeah. 496 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,960 Because it's like a part of us that is like uncomfortable with, 497 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:27,560 with not being soft, you know? Yeah, going back to to Leo and 498 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:34,840 the ability to go from having a tantrum so happy as Larry in 30 499 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,720 seconds and he's forgotten about it and he's just getting on this 500 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:43,520 day where it was, you know, to talk about myself here. 501 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,040 It's like if there's something goes on with me, I'm, you know, 502 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,720 that is in my body. I'm thinking like, and I 503 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,480 actually feel if, like if I have a problem going on which I care 504 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,600 about, like I feel that in my stomach for quite some time 505 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,400 afterward. Like I might, there might be the 506 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,880 event may happen and then it'll be in my stomach for hours and 507 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,080 hours afterwards. No, I'm not the only guy who 508 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,320 experiences that. What do I do in that situation? 509 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,520 Yeah, right. So, so firstly I want to point 510 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,920 out that like you've already made the leap, the interceptive 511 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,640 leap of like, OK, this thing's happening. 512 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 It's not only a story, but I'm noticing this somewhere in my 513 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,600 body, right? So that's like the first step is 514 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,120 like there is a sensation here that feels like uncomfortable. 515 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,440 From there, the, the exploration or the, the journey, let's say, 516 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:42,200 is like, to what degree can I like get curious about this? 517 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,280 Like I, I like the frame of courageous curiosity that isn't 518 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,400 trying to fix it, isn't trying to change it isn't trying to get 519 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:48,920 rid of it. But just like, just like what's 520 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,240 here, like what does this feel like? 521 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,800 Is it, is it like hot and red? Is it, is it intense? 522 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,040 And like even just bringing your like presence to that area, it 523 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,240 will start to shift naturally. Yeah. 524 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,680 And generally the, the, the practices. 525 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,440 So I, I think it's, it's kind of a like maybe helpful to give an 526 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,680 example of let's, let's say it was anger, you know, just making 527 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,160 this up here often anger. I, I think of this as like, if 528 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,240 you imagine like a hose pipe and the hose has got like energy, 529 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,160 like running through it. The hose pipe can get kinked one 530 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,480 of two ways. If it gets kinked one way, it 531 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,440 gets repressed. And so then it might come out as 532 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,160 like passive aggression or like like like I'm not angry like, 533 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,160 but this is like again, like contracting away and probably 534 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,760 like a snarky remark or something sarcastic that comes 535 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,960 out. And if it gets kinked the other 536 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,000 way, it's like aggression. It's like the typical kind of, 537 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,560 you know, like fuck you energy. So the work is like, to the 538 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,280 degree that you can bring your, your presence and awareness and 539 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,240 just like allow it to move without tensing or contracting 540 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,200 or resisting against it, then it just comes out cleanly and 541 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,360 that's when it lasts 8 to 20 seconds. 542 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,880 So, and this is a really, this was such an insight for me was 543 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,640 like what I thought of as anger, as the emotion of anger was 544 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,120 actually my resistance to that anger. 545 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,880 And the same is true of grief and sadness and lots of other 546 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,360 like negative emotions that we, that we think of. 547 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,280 The negative aspect is the way in which we are like tensing and 548 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,440 contracting and resisting that feeling. 549 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,720 Because when, when that tension cut and resistance goes away, 550 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,280 the feeling lasts 1020 seconds and it actually feels fucking 551 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,480 good. That's like the, that's like the 552 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,680 ridiculous joke of, of this whole thing. 553 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,920 Like the way in which we suffer is like specifically the way in 554 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,320 which we're resisting that sensation. 555 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,960 And so then the art, the skill then becomes like, OK, in what 556 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,920 way am I like resisting this? In what way am I tensing against 557 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,520 this? And that's when, like the game, 558 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,920 the game is on basically. Oh, yeah, That's nice. 559 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,440 Yeah. So it's really, it's, well, it's 560 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,160 a kind of like exaggerating. It's delving into that feeling, 561 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,680 that emotion, whatever's going on, exaggerating it so you can 562 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,600 really feel that in your body and coming to terms with it 563 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,200 rather than ignoring it. Yeah, and it might want to, you 564 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,440 know, something might want to express or move or, you know, 565 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,400 maybe tears come, maybe there's like some frustration. 566 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,920 Maybe there's like I, I do what like guided breath work with 567 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,840 people one-on-one. And the, the incomplete reflexes 568 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,040 that get surfaced and completed are wild to witness. 569 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,480 Like I had a guy who had a near death drowning experience. 570 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,640 And while he was in this breath work journey, his entire body 571 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,160 recreated that drowning experience with all of the 572 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:46,040 movement because our, our bodies buffer these incompleted 573 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,560 experiences in I, I think it's literally in the smooth muscle 574 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,360 tissue in, in, in the vasomuscular system. 575 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,800 And so that's that's why you get people who are repressed. 576 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,200 You see the tension in their body, on their faces, in the way 577 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,280 they walk, in their posture, in, in their mental kind of 578 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,960 patterns. And so when there is sufficient 579 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,080 safety present, these these reflexes get to unwind and the 580 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,080 tension gets released and there's a sense of like, it just 581 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,560 feels so fucking good on the other side. 582 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,200 It's like, it's like a huge exhale. 583 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,280 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 584 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,280 And what you just said, though, actually when you're talking 585 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,240 about expressing emotions, you like, get it, get it out. 586 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:35,480 You might need to, you know, shout, scream, cry that there 587 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:42,400 like that emotional expression and then putting masculinity in 588 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,480 that emotional expression and masculinity. 589 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,440 How have in that and that could you work with ton of guys in 590 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,880 what when women too like how have you seen like modern 591 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,160 masculinity involving in terms of emotional expression? 592 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,160 Have I seen it evolving? Yeah. 593 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:08,239 Like how like have you seen more guys leaning into that and 594 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,679 evolving into it? Or is there still that like 595 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:15,360 Nope, not going there? Yeah, So I can, I can tell you 596 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,280 what, what I've seen and also, you know, you know, in myself or 597 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,960 maybe start with a personal story, which is I remember 598 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,520 specifically when I was, I was doing a training and I would 599 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,880 like anger was coming up for me. It was very clear it was anger 600 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,239 and I wasn't wanting to express it. 601 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,920 And my, my teacher at the time said to me, he said, you are 602 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,760 loved in your anger. And I just like broke down 603 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,639 bawling just like tears streaming down my face. 604 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,080 And just this like shit, like I've felt unsafe essentially 605 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,440 whenever anger has arisen. And I, I think it was connected 606 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,440 to the fact that like I hurt someone in an like outburst of 607 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,239 anger when I was a kid. And so I was like, Nope, like, 608 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,520 don't do that again, that bad, wrong, etcetera. 609 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,160 But in terms of how like the evolution of, let's say, like 610 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,760 working with emotions, I think for a lot of a lot of guys 611 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,440 actually, like many guys are learning to kind of come into 612 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,240 their kind of like softness and to come into their heart, let's 613 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:18,600 say. And there is a beauty in that 614 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,640 because so many men, as you know, we've been saying have 615 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,440 been so closed off for a lot of their lives. 616 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,120 And at the same time, there's a way in which like there can 617 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,280 almost be if that, if, if they're only in their softness, 618 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,440 then there can be a disconnection from like the 619 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,640 warrior from like the power. And that's what a lot of women, 620 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,160 I think are like seeking that like they, they're meeting these 621 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,520 like very feminine, kind of like soft, like squidgy guys. 622 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,840 And they're like, like where like, where are the fucking men? 623 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,600 Right. And so it's, it's not that, it's 624 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,280 not like don't go into the, because we need that as well. 625 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,360 Like a warrior that's disconnected from his heart is 626 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,480 also bad that that's like what we've been kind of moving away. 627 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,080 But that's like the toxic masculinity that everyone talks 628 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,000 about. But the, the vision that like, 629 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,920 like I like to hold over kind of integrated masculinity is one 630 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,000 of, you know, a man who has the capacity to be in his heart, to 631 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,240 be in his lover, to be a father, to be, you know, loving for 632 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:19,240 loving for his son and also has the warrior and the power and 633 00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,680 like, the, the like, the fuck no. 634 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,240 Or like, like, I will defend, like what I love. 635 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,400 I will defend the people that I love and I care about. 636 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,360 I will set boundaries. I will follow through with my 637 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,000 word. I will stay in integrity. 638 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,360 And that's like, that is also deeply necessary. 639 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,080 And the, the path that I typically see is like the 640 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,320 dearmering starts to happen, kind of come into their hearts, 641 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,440 start to build a relationship with their feelings. 642 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,400 And then the, the next shift is like, OK, like, where's the 643 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,480 warrior? Like, how do I, how do I show 644 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,520 up? How do I find my my fierceness, 645 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,720 my passion might like lust and like, in some ways there's 646 00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:58,640 almost like darkness that there's like a there's like a 647 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,320 power in there, which can be scary if it's not also connected 648 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,120 to like the the king and the lover to use the archetypal 649 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,960 language. Yeah, yeah. 650 00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:14,200 And I think 11, my experience and my experience of working 651 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:19,680 with plenty of guys is what guys need to be careful of is going 652 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,000 too far into the emotional expression because it does feel 653 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,040 fucking good, to be honest. When you start getting that shit 654 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,240 out, it feels good. It's like it's such, it's such a 655 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,240 release. You're so much lighter. 656 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,480 But if you go too far, it then becomes this like, I just want 657 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,200 to release everything. And you can fall into the trap 658 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:44,640 of emotionally dumping the people around you and they might 659 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,720 not want your emotional shit. And so it's, it's important to 660 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,920 actually have the right environments to be able to 661 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,400 express the, the right things, which is why I'm such a huge fan 662 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,560 of like men's groups and groups like what we, what we run and 663 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,120 the events that we run, because it's a, it's an environment. 664 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,160 We can get around other guys. You can get that out and then 665 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,600 you can don't have to emotionally dump on the actual 666 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:10,960 on the people that are closest to you. 667 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,440 Yeah, that's so well said. And having that, I mean, really 668 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:16,880 what we're talking about is discernment, right? 669 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,880 It's like what are the spaces and and who are the people in 670 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,680 which I can kind of take the armor off and I really can like 671 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,800 reveal to and men's groups are amazing for that. 672 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,640 And then there are times where like you might want to put some 673 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,200 of the armor back on. Maybe it's like at like a a work 674 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,920 like boardroom meeting or something or like you're showing 675 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,240 up like for work like I I don't think that you you need to be or 676 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,200 anyone should be that open all the time. 677 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,120 Like there's a, there's like an inherent intelligence to this, 678 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,440 but again, it's like responding appropriately to the situation 679 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,720 that you're in and noticing when you're over indexing on one of 680 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:56,680 the other. Like, I think for most men, as 681 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,000 far as I'm aware, that they actually could use more spaces 682 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,120 like a men's group or like, maybe it's their therapist or 683 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,280 maybe it's someone that they can really, like, open up to and 684 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,760 they can be seen in and the stuff that they wouldn't 685 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,560 normally reveal. But yeah, like for sure not 686 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,280 taking that to every area of your life. 687 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,640 Yeah, yeah, because it's just going on to the archetypes. 688 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,000 It's like the the lover archetype, which is what we're 689 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,960 talking about here. When we go into an emotional 690 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:27,160 expression, it has no boundaries that the lovers. 691 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,600 So if you feel too much and it's like, and it feels fucking great 692 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,320 because you, we, we essentially, we all want the love. 693 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,520 The lava has lower boundaries. So we have to, we have to have 694 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,680 the the magician and the king to Gianna go, Hey, hey, there's 695 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,640 some boundaries here to to not just reveal all and go head over 696 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:51,080 heels here and let everything go and then not see issues that are 697 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,080 there in front of your eyes. Totally. 698 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,560 Yeah, yeah. What's OK? 699 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,560 A lot of the, a lot, a lot of the guys and myself included, 700 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:07,080 where we, we love, we are building things like building 701 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,880 businesses, we love building careers. 702 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,920 We've always got projects going on. 703 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,400 How does nervous system regulation enhance that zone? 704 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,680 Let's, let's talk about the warrior side here. 705 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,320 Like how does that enhance that zone? 706 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,200 Yeah, totally. So I mean, your, your nervous 707 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,160 system capacity is essentially like how much energy and life 708 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,240 force do you have? And you can direct that, ideally 709 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:37,880 channel that energy and life force into like expressing your 710 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,560 gifts, whether that's business, whether that's art, whether 711 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,040 that, you know, whatever that looks like. 712 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,680 And so I'm really interested in how do we increase our I, I 713 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,040 think about how do we increase our capacity and how do we 714 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,320 increase our resilience? And I'll define those two. 715 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,680 So capacity is like the amount of intensity that we can be with 716 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,800 without losing our center. That's capacity. 717 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,200 And then resilience is how efficiently or effectively can 718 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,000 we downshift from being like in the go, go, go, getting shit 719 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,160 done to them like rest and recovery. 720 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,160 Because you know, if you look at like Olympic sprinters, they, 721 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:16,080 they've created an art out of how do we rest? 722 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,840 Well, yes, because when we rest, that's actually when the muscle 723 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,920 is repairing. And it's the same with, you 724 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,160 know, the same, the same with business. 725 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,720 Like it's, it's in the recovery, the down shifting periods when 726 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,840 like the good ideas come and it's when we, when we recharge. 727 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,320 And so having resilience in my mind is like, how can we retrain 728 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,560 how to relax? Because many, many of us men 729 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,840 especially really struggle with relaxing, particularly without 730 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,040 relying on exogenous substances like alcohol, weed, drugs, 731 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,160 whatever it is. And so treating relaxation is 732 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,240 actually a skill to be cultivated and knowing that 733 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,920 there are practices like non sleep, deep breaths, breath 734 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,680 work, there's a bunch of different things, tools which 735 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,920 allow us to effectively downshift, you know, once the 736 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,360 work day is done, we're coming home. 737 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,360 We don't want to be that like kind of warrior magician, go, 738 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,120 go, go. We actually want to soften and 739 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:18,600 like relax and getting really efficient in that cycle is I 740 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,360 think what what creates sustainability and it's also 741 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,760 what creates create creativity as well. 742 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,360 So that's, that's how some of this nervous thing work ties 743 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,480 into I think what you're speaking to. 744 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:34,920 Yeah, yeah, that that actually I'm just, I'm just in the in the 745 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,960 trenches of building a planner, the heroic man planner. 746 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,280 So it's a physical, it's a fun planner. 747 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,960 I've been working on it for a while and it's everything that I 748 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,160 ever wanted in to, like plan my life and just consistent, just 749 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,800 be real consistent with just constant growth. 750 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:58,920 But it also incorporates like state priming and regulation and 751 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200 like things to go into your masculine, things to go into 752 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,640 your feminine. It's got everything that I've 753 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,960 been learning over the last few years and the last 10 years in 754 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,760 business. But and what were you just 755 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,200 talking now about? Actually, when you get home from 756 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,200 work or you're you're shutting down for the day, it's you you 757 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,560 want you do. You don't want your your 758 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,480 warrior. You don't really want your 759 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:21,560 magician. You want us. 760 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,520 You so actually like incorporating tools that down 761 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,920 regulate in your like evening rituals. 762 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,160 Yeah. And then on the flip side, in 763 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,520 the morning to incorporate tools to ramp yourself up to prime 764 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,840 precisely super important and how, yeah, so. 765 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,360 Totally. So maybe I can give a little 766 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,440 plug here, but I've just released an iPhone app called 767 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,040 State Shift that is specifically for that use case where it has 768 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,680 upshift practices and downshift practices. 769 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,200 The upshift practices, things like Breath of Fire, stuff like 770 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,960 that really get you juiced and charged in the morning so that 771 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:02,280 you can focus, you can like bring your full energy. 772 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,840 And then the downshift practices mostly for kind of like that 773 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,480 evening wind down, but maybe like you want to do an NSDR 774 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,920 after lunch so you can then get a second winds to get more stuff 775 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,760 done. That's precisely what this is 776 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,440 for. And it's kind of like my like my 777 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,080 like easy, like if this then that approach to just 778 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,560 incorporating this into day-to-day life. 779 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,280 Yeah, yeah, just making a couple of notes there. 780 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,480 I was like, oh, Chuck it in as they are after run. 781 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,160 Yeah, yeah, the old breath, breath of fire. 782 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,360 That's like do it's like called ego ego eradicator. 783 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,720 OK, that's fucking. Horrendous every morning and you 784 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,800 need to have to eradicate your ego, but it incorporates 785 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,440 throughout the far. But Dan, does it wake me up 786 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,160 afterwards? Because you go, you go through. 787 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,440 Pain, it just breaths go through you incredibly powerful. 788 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,320 What's your what's your experiences around breath work? 789 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,720 I mean, they could could probably be a separate podcast, 790 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,760 but I, I think if breath work in, there's two main camps, like 791 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,240 1 is shifting of state. So like what we've just been 792 00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:08,800 talking about like breath of fire or turning off to breathing 793 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,080 or humming where you're deliberately up shifting or down 794 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,760 shifting your state. And then the second category is 795 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,680 loosely speaking, transformational breathwork. 796 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,000 Yeah, and this is holotropic breathwork, conscious connected 797 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,280 rebirthing. There's a bunch of them, right? 798 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,400 And this is essentially where you're looping your breath to 799 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,960 create an also state of consciousness where unprocessed 800 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,760 emotions can tenderize the surface. 801 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,600 Now, I think there's a there's a kind of nuance here in that 802 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,600 often, let's say someone's doing holotropic breath work, there is 803 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,920 a danger of blasting through your window of tolerance, 804 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,280 disassociating, and someone might look like they're having a 805 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,200 cathartic experience, but they won't actually be in their 806 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,720 bodies. And so in my experience, it 807 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:52,200 doesn't get integrated. And so it looks like this huge 808 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,920 powerful catharsis, but then nothing actually changes on the 809 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,680 level of the nervous system, so. Let's just let's just set back 810 00:45:58,680 --> 00:45:59,120 a. Second there. 811 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,400 Sure. Yeah. 812 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,640 Because because you're you're you're clever guy and and what 813 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,000 you're talking about there might just go over the heads of what 814 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,640 are you talking about there? So when you say someone's going 815 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,760 through like a holotropic breathwork session, which is 816 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:22,320 essentially it's very, very deep somatic breathwork and they 817 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,280 might miss what's going on in their body, what do you mean by 818 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:27,720 that? Like where are they going? 819 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,920 Yeah. So the experience that someone 820 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,960 might have will be the. So it's a forced inhale and a 821 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,840 forced exhale is kind of what the breath looks like. 822 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,960 Often a sign that they are approaching the window, their 823 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,120 window tone into their nervous system is that they get what's 824 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,520 known as technique, which is like, I call it like T Rex 825 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,080 clause. So like you'll sometimes see 826 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,240 people with like hands up like this sort of his tingling and 827 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:54,240 then it'll get like cramps and it's not comfortable. 828 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,840 And typically when that happens, they will also be either in 829 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,600 their head or their mind or they will have like that their 830 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:06,040 awareness will have like left their body and the body may 831 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,520 continue to convulse, to emote, to go through. 832 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,960 I, I processed, but what I've seen and you know, I don't have 833 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,600 research studies to back this up because they haven't been done 834 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,680 yet. But I've, I've seen that when 835 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,320 that happens, whatever the emotions are typically don't get 836 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:22,960 integrated. And so nothing changes. 837 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,160 So it might have been a powerful experience in the same way that 838 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,240 like, you know, going to a concert, taking LSD and it's 839 00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,400 like, it's a, it's a wild ride, It's fun, it's a good 840 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,000 experience. But if you're going into it from 841 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,360 a perspective of like, I want to heal my nervous system or 842 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,440 whatever the intention is, I actually think it could be 843 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,960 counterproductive and in some cases re traumatizing people if 844 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,720 something comes up, but it's not fully integrated. 845 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,760 The, the way that this looks in a, in a healthy example is when 846 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,400 the exhale is relaxed and effortless. 847 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,080 So the inhale is like the activation, the exhale is the 848 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,120 relaxation. And when you can loop your 849 00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,960 breath in this way and actually stay with your experience to 850 00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:04,880 stay with your emotions, to stay with the sensations, and then 851 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,600 the catharsis happens and then there's relaxation and rest 852 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,680 afterwards. That's actually when the stuff 853 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,120 shifts. That's when the transformation 854 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,360 happens. And I, I get quite angry, 855 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,520 frankly, when I see breath work practitioners, particularly 856 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,520 those that teach online. And they're, they're not like 857 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,560 there in person to kind of create safety and they really 858 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,400 open people up in a way. And then, you know, shit comes 859 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,600 up as it does. And then there's no, there's no 860 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,280 one there to kind of hold it and be with it. 861 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,800 And it's too intense for most people because most people have 862 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,720 a narrow window of tolerance because we live in like a 863 00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:42,840 dysregulated world. And so I think what what people 864 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,480 need if they're going to engage in that type of breath work is 865 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,960 the more gentler, nourishing, slower, hyper breath work where 866 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,040 they can stay with themselves in in the experience. 867 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,240 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're right. 868 00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:03,680 And I too get angry when things aren't people facilitate things 869 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,960 and then there's no integration or it's nice, there's no real 870 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,400 safety or there's no real thought, thought process about 871 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,200 what might come up and help to handle that. 872 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,160 And yeah, because it can be, can be very traumatic. 873 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,000 And if that's not looked after or integrated or processed 874 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,560 properly, can just go home worse than when you came into the 875 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:21,560 thing. Yeah. 876 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,600 And I, so I've, I've worked with many, many students who have 877 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,360 done some form of philosophical, even Wim Hof, and they've had 878 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,760 intense anxiety, like been unable to sleep for weeks, even 879 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,640 months afterwards after some of these experiences. 880 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,440 So I actually think that it's very irresponsible and to some 881 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,640 degree dangerous not giving people sufficient context as to 882 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,680 like how powerful these experiences can be. 883 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,680 Yeah, and to and I've got just going back to what you were 884 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,360 saying earlier about being out of body like so recently. 885 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,560 So we on some of our events, we do breath work. 886 00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,680 I have a facilitator that comes in and does that. 887 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,480 It's amazing. But the last session that we did 888 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,640 actually, which was in September, I did had that, that 889 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,800 what you're talking about that out of body experience. 890 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,240 And I got actually, there was Jesus and then there was this 891 00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:15,080 goddess. And like it was, I was, I was, 892 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,440 that wasn't another paradigm in another world like I was on 893 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,560 plant medicine. It was crazy how vivid and just 894 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:23,880 and divine, how beautiful it was. 895 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,360 But it and it was an out of body experience. 896 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,040 I was, I'd left my body. So and that's what I wanted to 897 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,040 explain to this. Like when you're talking about 898 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:33,560 out of body, this is what can happen. 899 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,440 But you can stay out of body for a long time. 900 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:39,720 And if you're not, and and what you're rightly saying is that 901 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,760 being out of body, you're not actually processing the stuff 902 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,560 inside your body. It's you're not. 903 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:51,440 You're just having this vivid lucid experience. 100% Yeah, 904 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:53,400 Yeah. Thank you, man. 905 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,360 That's that's yeah, that's powerful. 906 00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,520 Right. One, one last one last thing, 907 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:06,320 actually. So if you forge forge guy, most 908 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,480 of the guys that are in my in our world very much very much 909 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,480 like me very much, you know, the, the the family man, they 910 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,960 may have been in self development for a few years, 911 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,800 right? This whole like emotional 912 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,360 expression, nervous system regulation, breathworks, all 913 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,880 super new or they've done little bits of it. 914 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,840 If you were to give one piece of advice that to get them going to 915 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,600 go, Hey, just like just do this. And I promise you man, if you 916 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,800 stick to this like you will, you will see quantum leaps over the 917 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,840 over the course. Where would you? 918 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,040 Where would. You tend to go it's. 919 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:47,640 A great question. I would actually say getting 920 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:52,320 into the practice of designing and running experiments for 921 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:57,400 yourself because you know, you can hear me, me talking, you 922 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,160 like you talking and the information was like, go through 923 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,320 be like, oh, that's interesting. But unless you like actually 924 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,400 design and create an experiment to test it for yourself, like it 925 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,960 won't land and integrate in your life. 926 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,400 So starting with the the premise of like, I want to be like a 927 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,480 scientist of my own experience, like an end of one. 928 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,400 And then following like following your curiosity, like 929 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,400 of everything that we talked about, there's like tons of 930 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,840 stuff here that you could explore, whether it's waking up 931 00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,560 every morning and doing a state shift practice, doing an upshift 932 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,600 or down or doing a downshift practice in the evening. 933 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,920 Like that as a very simple starting point. 934 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,840 An experiment might be, I'm going to see if there's a, a 935 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,800 men's group that I can join and just like commit to that for two 936 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,560 weeks, see what that's like that if that, you know, sticks that 937 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:44,920 could, that could kind of change your life. 938 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,960 So I, yeah, I would really recommend like taking agency for 939 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,320 yourself and designing experiment, running it and then 940 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,520 like reflecting on it and being like, did it work? 941 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,080 Did, did I actually feel more, more relaxed or, or better or 942 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,160 were they just bullshitting like, and it's, and then it's 943 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,360 like finding, finding what works for you and then continuing to 944 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,400 iterate. And then that pro honestly, that 945 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:16,880 process doesn't really end, but you fall in love with, with the 946 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,600 process of experimentation. Or at least I did. 947 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,400 And that's why I'm still doing doing what I'm doing. 948 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,560 Yeah, yeah, I like that. Be a scientist experiment. 949 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,000 Yeah. Thanks man. 950 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:29,560 What was the name of your app again? 951 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,480 So the the app is called state shift should be available on iOS 952 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,200 and Android stores. And then I also teach A5 week 953 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,320 course called nervous system mastery. 954 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,760 The website is NS mastery.com and that is essentially my 955 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,320 attempt to like distill all of the theory and practices and 956 00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,160 protocols that we've talked about today and, and much more 957 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,520 into a kind of like 5 week boot camp that will get people kind 958 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,560 of firmly on this journey of like experimenting for 959 00:53:58,560 --> 00:53:59,880 themselves. Nice. 960 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:01,800 Thank you man. I'll link those in the in the 961 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,240 description. Johnny, appreciate you man. 962 00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,800 Thanks for the wisdom. That's been great. 963 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:08,920 I've really, I've really enjoyed this man. 964 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,120 Thanks for reaching out. And yeah, this is super fun for 965 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:13,040 me. Cool. 966 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:16,280 So man, TuneIn. Next week we'll be in it with 967 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,440 another episode select team. Hey guys, almost forgot. 968 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:25,120 Check out heroicman.com, the website. 969 00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,560 If you want to join Heroic Man's membership, you can just do that 970 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,120 immediately on there. Super easy. 971 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:35,360 Or if you want to apply to join the Awaken Man program and go 972 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,280 deeper, you can do that there too. 973 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:39,080 Cheers man, see you next week.