Why nice guys don't get paid or laid with Doctor Robert Glover.
Join me and my Co host Ben as we do the insights version.
This is the new version of the podcast.
So what's going to happen is this the original version that
we did with Glover two years ago is going to play the episode is
gold timeless insights that he reveals in that straight after
that, it's going to go into mine and Ben's insights that we've
picked up over the last two years from coaching hundreds of
men, but also just both of our personal growth journeys through
going through nice guy syndromes.
Enjoy the episode. And if you want to ask us a
question, there's now a link below.
You can click it in Spotify and Apple ask us a question and
we'll answer it on the next episode.
Cheers guys. Welcome to the Awaken Man
podcast. Honestly, this is going to be an
amazing one. I am so excited and honoured to
be joined by Peter Taylor today. I.
Love it how? Many times.
How many times have you pulled that on him?
I. Wasn't expecting that I really.
Want to check? I'm honest by I'm always
honoured to be joined by Pete, but honestly, the only person
that could match the the might of Mr. Taylor is Doctor Robert
Glover. Robert, it is an absolute
pleasure to have you on this podcast.
It means a lot to both Pete and I and the man that listening to
the Awake Man podcast. I'm just going to before we
start the conversation, I just want to introduce Robert to
those of you who don't know who he is.
I don't know how you know if you're in men's work.
It's like not knowing who Alex Ferguson is if you watch
football. Who's he?
Yeah. Yeah, so I, I started my men's
journey and when I was turning like 2930 and yeah, Robert's
book was the first book that was given to me and it helped me
exponentially. It was just, I, I was reading it
thinking like this guy just knows me so well.
And it was about being a nice guy.
And it's almost like I felt it was the book that every guy
should get when he turned 30 who have has got that equation that
being a nice guy somehow makes their life better.
And it was one of the, I would say the cornerstone pieces of
information I received that helped me massively change my
life from the age of 30, rectifying my relationships and
me and business and and Robert, you know, just like, thank you
so much for writing that. And it's absolute pleasure to
write. You know, have you on the
podcast today? Thank you for the invitation and
thank you for that, that introduction.
You know, it's interesting. When I began men's work in my
early mid 30s, like you, about all there was was Iron John,
which that was good. But the, you know, the we had
the mythopoietic movement and we could go out in the woods and
hold the talking stick and say ho and beat a drum, which was
all good. I mean, I did that, but there
wasn't wasn't much else out there, or at least not that I
could find. And so I'm just so excited, you
know, now here we are in 2022 that there's programs like
yours, Awakened Man, just so many, many great men's coaches,
men's programs, men's books. I mean, it's just gratifying
over the last 30 years just to see, you know, the, the, the
revolution that's occurring in men's work.
So it excites me. Thank you for the invitation to
be on your show again. Yeah, it's that's the revolution
of men's work. Because I have to admit myself
right up until I'd say actually 18 months ago when the Awaken
Man programme started, men's work was, was wasn't even a word
in my, it was, I'd never used that word before ever, you know.
And if I was to think of what men's work would be, I would
think about load of guys out in the woods bashing their drums
and doing a bit of yoga That that would be, that was what my
perception of that's what it was.
Right. So actually for me completely
new term. Pete just said about how he'd
never even been introduced to men's work as a, you know, as a
guy. And then all of a sudden he got
involved in the maker man. And also he's hearing this word
men's work. And I think that I so really to,
I think to begin the conversation, I think so many
men don't know what men's work is.
And it's almost like they go through this struggle of
masculinity problems in their relationships, all sorts of
things. And then then, but one of the
reasons I wanted to start the Awake Man project because when I
was going through those struggles and stresses, I didn't
know where to turn. I didn't want therapy.
I didn't I didn't know where to go to get help, but I didn't
feel broken. So what's your experience with
obviously, because you've seen so many men probably turn and go
to men's work. What was your experience of
that? Well, I'll tell you my
experience and then, then I'll, I'll give you my, my current day
definition of men's work. So backing up for me where I was
at, I, I came into, well, my profession was I, I came to
ministry early on. And then through marriage and
family therapy, I, I, I got a PhD in marriage and family
therapy at 29, so pretty young. That's where my education went.
I'm still working as a minister and then made that transition
to, to marriage therapy. Now, one thing that I've found
is that most of the men's programs that I bump into don't
come from, quote, a therapy background.
They, they come, you know, from yogic background, coaching
background, consciousness background, lots of other things
contributing. So I'd, I'd already, you know,
I've been a minister for a number of years, previous
lifetime was already working as a marriage and family therapist.
And then I was in my second marriage.
And you know, as a nice guy, if you'd met me 35 years ago, I
would have told you that I'm a nice guy.
I'm one of the nice guys you'll ever meet.
And I thought, why doesn't everybody live by that mantra of
trying to be considerate of other people and generous and
kind and conflict avoidant, you know, all that kind of stuff.
And about two years into my second marriage, my my second
wife said, you know, everybody thinks you're such a nice guy,
but you're not. You know, you can be really
hurtful. I'd rather be married to a jerk.
At least I know a jerk's going to be mean to me all the time.
You're nice and then you're not. And she said you need help.
And she said, you know, if you don't go get help, I'm leaving.
And I didn't want to lose her. So I went and got help.
And I thought, I don't know why I'm getting help.
She's the one who's unhappy all the time, Moody, never in a good
mood, never wants to have sex anymore, angry.
I'm going to get help. And I landed in a 12 step group
for sex addicts because she said you're a sex addict.
I wanted to have wife sex with my wife.
I guess that makes me a sex addict.
Got there, found out I wasn't having enough sex to be a sex
addict. How much sex do you have to have
to be a sex addict? I've never is there.
A kind of thought about this before.
You know you. Go let me Google this.
I, I, I, I don't think there's like a chart or a meter, but I,
I knew I wasn't having any sex. My on our honeymoon, my wife had
announced, Aren't you glad now that we're married, we don't
have to pretend to like sex? I go, I wasn't pretending, you
know, So that's how it went from our honeymoon on.
So we're about two years in. And so I went to the sex 12 step
group for sex addicts and it was great.
Again, I found out I wasn't a sex addict, but this is a, it
was a men's group. It was all guys and, and, and
these guys were hardcore. I mean, they were sex addicts.
They, they, they were doing shit that, you know, some were in
trouble with the law, some were in trouble with the courts.
So, you know, they were all in trouble one way or another.
And for the first time in my life, I had a place where I just
began to be me and reveal me. I grew up in fundamental
Christian Church, grew up with a critical father, grew up during
angry feminism of the 60s and 70s.
You know, I kept everything about me under wraps.
And so I'd go to these meetings. I go, what do I want to talk
about today that I've never told anybody or that I don't really
want to share, but I'm going to. And, you know, it was liberating
to just go and reveal me. And the only reaction ever got
was, thank you for sharing, Robert, you know, and it was
great. About this time, I got in
working with a therapist. And very first session I had
with this therapist, she taught me about boundaries.
I was in my 30s, second marriage, PhD, never heard of
boundaries. I didn't know what they were.
I'm like, wow, I didn't know you could say no or stop.
I'm going to get off the phone now.
Or if you do that again, we're done.
I didn't know you could do that, right?
And then so I continued in therapy.
A colleague of mine told me about a men's group he was in
led by a female therapist around sexual shame.
This woman had written several books around sexual shame.
And that was where just the bulk of my Nice Guy recovery took
place, was in that men's group. And by the way, shame is such a
powerful place to do our deepest work.
Sex and shame. You know, David Data talks about
going through sex. David Snarch, Osho Freud, you
know, sex is just a portal to doing our deepest work.
Jung would say the same thing. So that was so powerful to start
doing, you know, going into my deep work, you know, just by
starting with where my sexual shame was.
And I, I had a bunch. Most people do.
So I noticed him in in my therapy work as a therapist.
Guys were coming to me, couples were coming to me.
And so many of the men were saying, I'm a nice guy.
I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet.
I treat her well. I treat her better than her ex.
I'm raising her kids. I give her everything she wants.
I try to make her happy. I bought her a Ford Explorer.
It didn't have leather seats. It's never good enough.
When's it going to be my turn? And why doesn't she ever want to
have sex anymore? And I thought, you know, these
guys are, I can finish their sentences.
They're just like me. So I, I started my first No more
Mr. Nice Guy men's group over 25 years ago, met every other
Wednesday. I just started writing some
stuff to just kind of give them. When we met, I didn't really
have an agenda. I was just writing what I was
discovering. And over time, these guys and
usually their wives were saying, Robert, you should write a book,
you should go on Oprah. This could be a best seller.
There's a lot of men out there that need this.
So over a period of about six or seven years, I kept writing and
took about three years to get it published, which was interesting
because my agent shopped it to a lot of big publishers.
And, and I talked to a lot of editors and they said, Robert,
we like your book. It's well written, It's a good
book. But here's the but every one of
them said the same thing. Our marketing department says
men will not buy a self help book.
I said, you don't know the guys that that I'm I'm talking to.
Well, so finally I, I hustled, got a bunch of media exposure,
finally got a book contract. And when the book came out in
print 2003, my publisher sent me on a book tour around the US and
did a lot of TV interviews, newspaper interviews, radio
interviews. And the thing that guys or the
interviewers would most ask me is, Robert, do you see a
worldwide men's movement coming? And I said, no, really, for a
couple of reasons. One is I didn't think there was
one unifying 'cause that would bring men together.
And I said, I usually didn't say the second part.
Second part was is I think feminism succeeded to the degree
that it did because of men, whether it be governors, state
legislatures, university presidents said, oh, you know,
we we do need women do need equal pay for equal job and
equal treatment and equal opportunity.
So I think men were were the reason that that first wave,
second wave feminism succeeded. I didn't think women would get
on board with a men's movement. In fact, I just read an article
last night in a women's feminist thing attacking Jordan Peterson
is just like this evil creature. And I'm thinking no, when when
women, when the the the feminism is not going to help a men's
movement anything around empowerment.
Like, I read another article, a book review of, of the Proud
Boys written by a feminist guy in the New York Times and, and
basically talking about the Proud Boys.
He's, and I've seen other articles about this.
They, they, they start, they want to weave it into all men's
work. Like all men's work is coming
out of this nefarious thing of, of, you know, men, you know,
being disempowered and they're going to claim their power back.
And, and so I, I was right about that part.
Probably the women's movement was not going to help a men's
movement. But what I didn't, what I didn't
get right is that men need something there, whether they
know it or not, they're looking for something.
And and like you, you were saying Ben, you didn't know
where to look. I didn't either.
Like I said, I ended up in a 12 step group for sex addicts.
So we're looking for something. We don't know necessarily where
to look. But luckily now with the
Internet, with the breadth of information and resources, men
go looking now they end up in men's work.
And really what I think they're looking for is tribe and
initiation. And they find it in many ways.
And maybe, maybe it's through a 12 step group.
They get sober and they go find a group and they start
gravitating towards the, the groups that are all men.
Maybe it's, they go, you know, join a Dojo and, and they, they,
they learn martial arts or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Maybe it's a divorce group through their church when
they're going through a difficult time.
Maybe it's a, a pickup boot camp.
Maybe it's more of the consciousness yogic version of
men's work, more of the David data lineage.
Maybe it's even kind of radical, you know, nationalism.
So men are looking for something.
We need men, we need connection, we need direction.
And again, we need that, that masculine initiation that
teaches us how to deal with a difficult world, the scary
world, the painful world of the masculine.
Most of us have never had that. Most of us, I call it we're,
we're hanging out in the nursery of instant gratification, no
real challenge. And, you know, kind of being
mama's boys, hanging out trying to get the approval of women.
And that's not going to take us where we want to go.
So that's kind of my picture and I'm excited about this, that
whether you know, a guy does, you know, go, go join a, a, a
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu group, goes to a pickup boot camp, you know,
goes through a consciousness, you know, trek, journey out in
the wilderness. However we do it, the good news
is there's so much information out there, so many good books,
so many good coaches. Sooner or later, once a guy
starts moving in that direction, he seems to keep finding better
and better tools to help him in that journey.
You know people like you guys. Yeah, actually Pete nailed this
when we were because we we actually, we spent a year as a
small group. Like Pete wasn't on board
actually, he was still running his old business.
And like, we just made some office to guys to connect on the
Internet. And we were like, OK, we can
have a group, men's group. We set it up.
And then we were like trying to work out.
These guys were getting great results in their life.
They were making money, they were having more sex, they were
having better relationships. And and I was like, well, what
do we actually do with these guys?
Like, you know, what is it fundamentally which we do and.
It was Pete that was. Looking for the answer and he
found it like the word self actualization.
And I think the what what I'm seeing and experience in every
day as I'm facilitating in the group is guys that the only real
way to self actualize is in a group, but you can't do it in a
vacuum on your own. Like, and that's what I'm just
seeing every single day is like guys come in together and like
even this morning a guy shared about shouting his kids and his
kid and all of the men jumped in and supported him, challenged
him and like that guys getting 15 reference points to deal with
his current situation, which he wouldn't have on his own.
And that is for me, you know, I'm still everyday like pinch
myself. Oh my gosh, I'm part of this
group of men. I still pinch myself every day
too thinking Oh my gosh I'm part of this.
Yeah. You know, and, and I agree with
you, you know, I say in no more Mr. Nice Guy early on and, and
often, and I say it in every interview when guys say, when
interviewers say, well, what do you recommend for men?
You know, say blah, blah, blah. I go number one, don't do this
alone. You didn't become a nice guy in
social isolation. You're not going to recover in
social isolation. Nowadays, most men want to do it
alone. You know, isolate.
They never, never want to ask for help.
Is, is, is It's challenging for us men because it's like when,
you know, when I messed up what, what I noticed I'm on a
different computer than normal for this call because I was
already told you guys, my other computer, the keyboard didn't
work. And I noticed that, Oh, I was on
a really I've, I've got 4 Internet modems in my house.
That's how important Internet is to me.
And I noticed I was on one of the slower ones.
So I thought I'm, I'm just going to change to the faster Internet
for the computer and it cut me off the call.
Well, you know, I had this first impulse to, you know, oh, like,
oh, I didn't do anything. That's why I got back on and
said that was my fault. I would not have done something
I wouldn't have said 30 years ago.
That's my fault. I would have like, you know, I
don't know what happened, you know, technology, blah, blah,
blah. And and that's it.
We, we don't, we, we don't like that that bright light on us.
It feels like if, if, if, if we have a, if we make a mistake, if
we have flaw, if we yell at our kids, if we mess up the Internet
thing during an interview. Oh, no, you know, I'm terrible,
I'm bad, I'm gonna get rejected. But but the, the, the opposite
is true. Like I said when I went to that
12 step group and I'm sharing stuff that I'd never told
anybody and they're just going, you know, thanks for sharing.
And when I start doing my work through men's groups and I, I
tell men, get in a group, get in a group, get in a group.
And you know, I did the majority of my nice guy early recovery
work, wrote the book while I was in a men's group.
Six years ago. I got married again and I'm in
New Mexico. I'm kind of isolated culturally.
I'm not fluent in Spanish, even though I speak Spanish all to my
wife. I felt isolated and I was
leading a men's workshop and I just made the reference.
I got to find a men's group and one of the guys in the workshop
said, oh, I'm in this really great program.
You know, it's led by devotee of David Data and I go, I'm in.
And so I've been in that program for five years now.
And it too has, I believe, helped my marriage survive.
I've, you know, economically, financially, I've taken off in
the last five years. Everything in my life has gotten
better in the last five years because I'm in a group now.
As I said, I'm a therapist. That's my training.
So, you know, my training is you sit with somebody one-on-one and
listen to their stories for, you know, 50 minutes.
And then, you know, you go, OK, And I tell you what, you get two
men in a room just sitting, you know, talking 1 to one.
We're going to spend most of the time in our heads just talking
about the idea of things, you know, concepts.
But you put a man in a group with seven other guys with good
leadership, and all of a sudden it gets real.
Our behaviors show up, our patterns show up, our defense
mechanisms show up our, our social inadequacies show up, our
inability to to resolve things show up.
Everything shows up and it can be worked on.
And so I get, I, I, I love that you guys, you know, promote
doing this work with other men, whether is doing our, our deep
work of cleaning out our stuff from our past, doing our shadow
work or sexual shame, or whether it's more of a coaching approach
of where am I stuck? What do I need to do to move
forward? How do I need to build
resources? How do I need to build
accountability? How do I need to stop the things
that aren't serving me well? It doesn't matter what approach
we're taking. Doing that in a group is just so
much more powerful than any other way we're going to do it.
Yeah, I think that using like the awake amount we use men's
work as a vehicle to to actually improve business.
And you know what we have like work energy, you know, family,
you know, work energy and love and watching the guys do the
men's work and then in the reporting back about their
businesses flourishing. And we've not, and we, we do one
business call a week and it's an amazing call evens it.
And we can't cover all of the stuff that needs to the the know
how stuff. We don't teach them loads.
We just get them to leverage what they already know.
And and we there's a particular resonance with the king, like,
you know, Rob Boothroyd or the, the, the, the Robert Moore book
king, warrior, magician lover. It's like when guys operate like
kings in their own life and they celebrate one another.
And they be celebrated and they, they show up like kings all of a
sudden. They just like, it's like, you
know, from the, the books, like they sit in their own throne and
they start behaving like a king in their own life instead of
someone who's a bystander in their own life.
And this effects them so positively across all of their
arenas. It's, it is amazing.
So what? I truly, to my core, believe
that men's work is one of the best, the best ways to help
manic selling business. I'll Amen that I wrote a class
an online class 20 years years ago and it is it was actually a
commissioned by my publisher to support No more Mr. Nice Guy.
When it came out, they wanted me to write a book, teach it at an
online university. It was Barnes and Noble
University and Barnes and Noble. I don't know if they even sell
books anymore. I think they filed bankruptcy
not long ago, but so they had me write this course and and I
wrote a course and they wanted it based on No More Mr. Nice Guy
in the course I wrote is 8 lessons and it's nice guys don't
finish last. They rot in middle management,
the basic premises. Nice guys are good at being
good, but not great at being great for for many reasons.
And I go over those various ones in the course, whether it's our
codependency, getting caught, caught up in toxic fused
relationships, not risking underselling, undervaluing
ourselves, fear, anxiety, I mean all the stuff that goes into it.
And so I, I wrote that course 20 years ago and I've been teaching
it online every since. And since then I've, I've
written a half dozen other courses that I teach online.
Well, in the last year, I just redid all my courses and put
them in a video format where I, I learned to, to shoot video
and, and that was kind of like a microcosm of what I teach.
I started out not having really a clue of how to do it.
So I'm just, you know, recording on my computer Cam reading, you
know, the outline script on my computer and talking into a blue
whatever mic. And it was good.
I mean, for the first class that I did, by the time I got to the
4th class, which is the nice guys don't finish last, I
brought in middle management. By then I have a teleprompter
now lighting 2 mics with two different recording sources, 2
digital cameras, one in here, one over here to the side,
writing good scripts, reading them off teleprompter shooting
with two cameras, writing production notes from my
assistant for B roll for graphics for lower thirds, him
producing them beautifully. Me review and, and all of a
sudden I, I went from not having a clue how to do a teleprompter,
use a scrolling iPad. But, and, and all that scared
me. And you know, I didn't know
what. And so I just watched hours of
YouTube videos of how to pick the right camera, how to use the
teleprompter, how to, how to create a compelling videos.
And I, and I just leaned into facing that fear.
And so even just learning to create those videos was such a
big challenge for me. You know, I'm 66 years old.
A lot of guys are like either retired or thinking about
retiring. I'm thinking about, I want to
learn a new challenge. I want to master.
I want to be the king of that. So after I finished converting
this course, nice guys don't finish last, I stumbled onto an
event in an e-mail that I got a few months back about a video
series on Alzheimer's. And they did this thing where
you, you sign up and you come watch it 12 that 12 videos and,
and I signed up, it was free. You watch them all.
They, you know, offered that you could buy them really high
quality stuff, you know, well done.
And I thought, I want to do something.
I want to do an event like that. So I, I did this just last week
with this course. I, it wrapped up yesterday.
Yesterday was the 8th day of of eight videos had over 1100
people sign up for it. I, I, you know, I, I, I
experimented with affiliate marketing, you know, I had my,
my assistant created all kinds of great stuff to go with it,
great technology for capturing. And you know, the people, the
emails I've been getting from people just about how even just
having to watch a Class A day in 24 hours until the next one
drops and you're having to, you know, it's like a firehose.
But the just the response I'm getting unsolicited is Robert,
this information is great. It's challenging me.
I'm getting out of my comfort zone.
I'm having to So I thought, well, I think I'll launch like a
60 day, eight week, 60 day challenge to where these guys
are going to come meet in small groups and these guys are paying
me a grand to sign up to do this thing with me and it's
challenging me. It's out of my comfort zone.
So I think this kind of thing is contagious when you get men in a
contact for someone else takes a risk, someone else gets out of
their comfort zone, somebody else tries a new technology,
somebody else, you know, really dives into their side hustle and
you see other guys do it and you go, if he can do it, I can do
it. One of my mantras is what one
man can do, another man can do. I stole that from a cheesy movie
called The Edge. But but I I love that mantra.
What one man can do, another man can do.
So yes, you put men in groups, let them watch somebody else
challenge themselves. Not not necessarily even have,
you know, huge successes. That's that helps, but just the
act of doing what scares them encourages other men to step up.
And especially if you're encouraging mastery, you know,
saying that, listen, if you're going to do this, do it right.
Bring your a game. You know, don't don't just play
around with it. Like I said, when I was creating
these videos, I, I went from not knowing what I was doing to, you
know, getting a lot of feedback from graphic, you know, people
that create videos that Robert, this is good, this is high
quality. And it's because I decided if
I'm going to do it, I'm going to get masterful at it.
When you were talking, now I'm thinking it's got better set up
in the house. Not all of us and you're going I
can do that. We can do that.
See, that's the thing when men got get like that, I could do
something like that. I I.
Got two cameras, hey? Yeah.
But one of my mantras is, you know, steal from the best and
make it your own and then give them credit you.
Can see Pete's face like listening to that and he's like
literally logging every piece of kit that we get like an Amazon
wishlist that that's going to be a bit of the call.
But and and honestly, in true, true form, like that is exactly,
I think what happens when you get a group of guys together.
You've hit a nail on the head. It's that competitive.
But use a term actually. And I think I'll invite you to
talk about it in a bit more detail after this.
But it's like, yeah, it's like if it's a Nancy nice guy thing,
but it's like we get told that competition isn't good.
And like, I think some guys go through go through this phase of
like they've been ultra competitive in their life and
then they have to blunt that competitiveness.
And actually when we've been in the group, and Pete can probably
share a bit more on this as well as like guys competing, but
instead of competing against competing with someone and it
pushes them to huge, huge feats of brilliance.
And you know, Pete, and you might want to share on this as
well, but we've seen guys competing in a such a powerful
way to where everyone's bowls upright.
Yeah, Before I do, I want to just bring it back to the basics
because I spotted this a couple of weeks ago when we were
talking about archetypes. And honestly, a year ago, well,
the fuck's an archetype? This was no idea.
Ben's talking to me about the magician and the warrior, and
I'm like, dude, you've been studying this for a long time.
Well, I've just been in business just doing my thing over there.
I have no. I want to be the gesture.
Can I do that? Yeah, what are you on about?
So I think what the list business would find beneficial
now is how would you define and how would you spot a nice guy?
You want me to answer that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it's like we as we find the time around a bit, a bit
now, like nice guy, the Bupner was the nice guy, but actually
like, how would you define that? Like what would if you listen,
nice guy, what are they doing? Yeah, sure.
So, yeah, kind of back up a little bit.
That's usually the first question interviewers ask me.
So Robert, what is a nice guy and what's wrong with that?
So basically my kind of elevator definition quick pitch of a nice
guy is a guy who's internalized a belief, an emotional belief.
He's not. He's not OK, just as he is not
good enough, just as he is. So out of that come two things.
One is a nice guy or a nice girl believes I have to become what I
think other people want me to be, to be like love, get my
needs met and be successful. And I have to hide anything
about me that might get a negative reaction from anybody.
That's why most guys want to want to do this work alone.
I, I don't want anybody to see me so nice guys.
It's just being a nice guy. It's just one of many
adaptations, survival mechanisms of having been born a helpless,
dependent, needy child with imperfect caregivers, which
that's all of us. Every human being is born
totally dependent and totally needy.
And we stay that way for a number of years.
Humans are the the slowest maturing animal of of any
species. Used to be took about 16 years
for a man to mature and that takes about 35 for a man to
mature. OK mom, dad, I'm ready to leave
now. So what happens is when we're
born, the prefrontal cortex part of our brain is still getting
wired up and doesn't finish in men till about age 25.
But the part of our brain down on the primitive brain stem down
here called the amygdala that's fully wired, that controls our
fight, flight, freeze mechanism, that controls respiration,
heartbeat. It's what keeps us alive.
That's on online when we're born.
And the theory is it also internalizes emotional
experiences, emotional belief. So when a baby is hungry and
nobody feeds him, when it's cold and nobody wraps him up, when
he's got a stomach ache and nobody can sue them, when you
know he has any kind of pain, just if he just left alone,
hungry, tired, dirty diaper, parents are fighting, you know,
he's abused, ashamed, you know, shaken anything.
The child emotionally internalizes.
I'm the cause of that. I'm bad.
And it's not thoughts, it's not worse.
It's not even picture memory. It's emotional memory.
Something's wrong with me. Again, I'm putting words to it,
but words don't really define it.
It's the gut feeling, the emotional feeling.
Now for every child with this very immature underdeveloped
brain tries to survive. Every animal does.
Every animal all the way down to, you know, the most primitive
reptiles that don't have much of A brain there.
Everything's about survive. So we as children, babies, we
develop survival mechanisms and they usually play 2 roles.
One is to try to comfort, soothe, make us feel better
right now as we feel bad. The other is to try to prevent
those same things from happening in the future that cause the
painful events now again, because we don't have an
accurate cause and effect, we think we caused it.
Babies are narcissistic by nature, the center of their
universe. We think we 'cause it, we don't
think it, but emotionally it is internalized.
I'm bad, I caused that. So what happens for nice guys is
well, if I'm, if I 'cause that I remedy, I can fix it.
I can prevent it, I can make it better.
Now again, every child develops these survival mechanisms.
How do I not feel bad right now? How do I prevent bad feelings in
the future? And but every child based on
usually temperament, birth order, other things develop in
different manners. Nice guy, he's just one way to
do it. You know, oppositionally defiant
might be another, aggressive might be another, perfectionism
might be another, just give up might be another.
There's no every baby does it different differently because
we're babies. So the nice guy grows up, comes
into childhood. This gets really magnified in
adolescence when when we want to start succeeding, being noticed,
get loved, get laid. And how do we do that?
Well, I'll do that by being nice.
I'll listen to the girls talk. I'll be different than the
jerks. I won't be too aggressive.
I'll be easygoing. I won't be completual.
I won't be like that. I won't be.
And, and so we take this path and they get solidified in
adolescence and we carried into adulthood and that becomes our
road map, our paradigm. And it boils down to, and no
more Mr. Nice Guy talk about covert contracts.
But so it boils down to three covert contracts for the nice
guy. First is if I'm a good guy, I'll
be liked and loved and the people I desire to have sex with
will desire to have sex with me. And that's where you see a lot
of frustration, resentment for a lot of a lot of young men come
in, not as young men. Men, I'm a good guy.
I treat women well. I'm not a jerk.
You know, they complain about jerks.
I'm not a jerk. I listen to them talk about the
jerks, but they don't want to be my girlfriend.
They don't want to have sex with me.
So that's Covert contract #1 if I'm a good guy, people will like
me and love me and I'll get laid.
Covert contract #2 is if I meet your needs without you having to
ask, then you'll meet my needs without me having to ask.
Now, all the covert contracts are ineffective and don't work.
This one really isn't. Hey, I read your mind and gave
you stuff I thought you would like and you know then you'd
appreciate me. Why don't you read my mind and
give to me? Oh, oh, I won't let you because
I'm a terrible receiver, because it makes me feel guilty to
receive anything. But I'll, I'll still feel
resentful when you don't give back.
And then I'll just keep trying harder, giving more to you,
hoping that you'll appreciate me and give back.
Covert contract #3 is if I do everything right, then I will
have a smooth problem free life. And this kind of the Peter
Panish aspect of, of, of nice guy syndrome.
You know, I'm doing everything right.
I'm not a bad guy, you know, I don't hurt people, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah. Everything should work.
You know, my, my, my wife should never get mad at me.
You know, I, I shouldn't get audited by the IRS.
My, I shouldn't get laid off. My business shouldn't fail.
I'm a nice guy. Everything should work out.
OK. So you know, if you if men are
listening to this, if you have that pattern of trying to become
what you think other what you think other people want you to
be so that the like you love you, you'll get a promotion, get
a sale. If you're hiding things about
you, your mistakes, your flaws, your insecurities, anything.
And if you're operating by those covert contracts of trying to be
good, so you'd be liked and loved, giving to others so
they'll give back and trying to do everything right, being that
perfectionist so that life will go smooth.
Odds are you develop that paradigm, that survival
mechanism of being quote nice to deal with your earliest painful
life experiences. And again, most of the stuff we
can't think our way through because it's recorded as such an
emotional level. How we usually work with it is
we notice where it's showing up. You know, I'm, I'm not getting
laid, all right? That's where it's showing up.
I'm not living up to my potential at work.
That's where it's showing up. I'm getting caught up in
procrastination and, you know, deceptive productivity.
That's where it shows up. Well, I get caught up in
codependent relationships where I'm always fixing people and
putting fires out. That's where it shows up.
So you watch the where it shows up and then then you go, what
story is this telling? And then that's when we usually,
if you don't, you don't have to dig too deep usually to find out
where there's probably covert contracts wrapped up in that
story. I.
Think there's a lot of people who listen to this are going to
be feeling pretty triggered right now just.
Punch, punch in. The fights I know I'll just.
Do punch in the fight. I've just been sitting just
reviewing some of the playing back, some of the tape between
me and my partner over the last couple of months and I'm like.
Oh, there's work to be done here.
They're always here, you know? There's always, you know, it's
funny because no more Mr. Nice Guy.
When it came out, I said 20 years ago, the publisher had a
lot of control of a lot of stuff, even down to the title,
which I wouldn't budget on the cover and and then the on for
the Audible version of it. And I said, you know, I want to
read the book. And I sent them, you know, a
little CD, you know, with me, you know, reading part of it.
And, and they hired a professional voice instead to
read the book. And I, you know, I kept getting
emails from people over the years, said, Robert, how come
you didn't read the book? You know, he, he mispronounces
covert contracts. He calls them covered contracts
in the book. And, and you know, and so after
about 15 years, I mean, the, the, the contract for the
Audible version, it long expired and it was only only available
in North America, which I never understood.
So I told my agent, I said, listen, you know, let's let's
end that contract. I want a new contract.
I want worldwide availability for the Audible version.
And I want to read it. And they said, OK.
And so I got an e-mail from my agent a couple weeks later from
the people that had the contract, the company that the
contract for the recorded book. And they said, OK, end of this
year, you know, contract will end.
And about two weeks later I got an e-mail from my agent.
They said the same company that had the contract that just ended
it made an offer. And we suggest you consider
taking their offer. So I'm reading the e-mail.
So I got out of this old contract.
The new proposal was Robert and I got it was a letter from the
vice president Company said we've only done this one other
time where we, you know, redid the book.
You are synonymous you with the book.
No more Mr. Nice. We want you to read it.
We want to keep you on board. We're going to offer you a
$75,000 advance, $5000 to come to New York and read it and and
worldwide distribution. I said, yeah, OK, I'll sign that
contract. And but so I went back to New
York, coming on five years ago now.
And you know, I'm, I'm reading the book and it's really a great
experience. Number one, I'm reading, I'm
getting tears in my eyes as I read stories of guys I worked
with right, as I saw their successes, their challenges and
how they, you know, I'd forgotten these stories.
But but the funniest part about it all was I'm reading it going,
Oh, I still do that. Oh, I've slipped back into doing
that. Oh, Oh my, I'm I'm, I'm like I
say in the book, nice guys are are slow learners, quick
forgetters. I go, Oh, yeah, I'm doing that
again. And so this stuff, because it is
so wired into into our deepest emotional brain into it's in our
nervous system. I don't know that that we'll
ever just like clean it completely out.
It'll always show up in various ways and in different contexts,
present new challenges. But the good news is if you,
once you really come to understand your own nice guy
patterns, why they're there, how they manifest, you notice them
quickly, you move through them quickly, you don't go down the
rabbit hole. And, and for most nice guys,
usually how most of our nice guy patterns show up is through
doing nothing, kind of hiding out, not not bringing our a
game, not showing up. I mean, they show up in other
ways as well, but that's usually for nice guys.
It's usually shows up in some form of underachieved, not not
living up to our full potential. Oh, oh, that's a real powerful
statement. I think a lot of guys are going
to resonate with that. Is it it's easier just to hold
back and not be in the arena and being challenged and fail rather
than get in the arena, try and be, you know, the person that
they don't want to be. You know, I think that's a lot
of we see a lot of guys holding back, withdrawing, withholding,
all that sort of stuff. And he's like, hey, just take it
to market, see what the market want with their business or
their course and let the let the market verify if it works or
not. Not hold back yourself.
They hate rejection. They hate.
We can't, Yeah, we can't decide that, you know, I mean, every
successful businessman or every venturer, every, every, every.
I discovered Mexico 20 something years ago.
I thought I want to, I want to live here.
And so, you know, about 10 years, got divorced, became
single, you know, got involved in business.
I can't. I want to live here.
I want to live here and, and it's like I, I didn't know what
it would take, how it would happen, but it wasn't until I
just made a hard decision like around 2007, 2008, you know,
the, the recession hit, then my father died, then my brother
died. Then I thought I, I got to go.
I got to go. You know, I don't know how it's
going to work. So I let go of my lease on my
apartment, let go of my lease on my office, said I'm going,
pointed myself in that direction.
And once I started going, doors started opening for me that I
never could have seen until I started the action.
That's one thing that we do is we we go, OK, I got to plan all
of this out. I got to be prepared for
everything. I have to know everything.
You know, I started creating these video classes.
I didn't know anything. Now I think I'm actually pretty
good at it, right? But took a year, but I actually
had to just start doing it and struggling and bumping into
stuff and doors opening and and trying new things.
So same thing moving to Mexico when I decided I'm going to
move, let go of my lease on my apartment, let go the lease on
my office. And then all of a sudden my
apartment manager says, Robert, you're coming back in three
months because I was, it's just kind of going to go three
months, come back to Seattle area.
She said we're going to have a studio apartment open up in the
building about the time you come back.
You want me just hold your deposit and reserve that for you
when you get back. I go, yeah, I'll take it.
And when I let go of my office with all my furniture and
everything, a colleague of mine said, Robert, I've been wanting
to get back to doing groups again.
And I hear you're leaving. Can I take over the lease on
your office? And I go, yeah, you want to keep
all the furniture and sublease it back to me when I come back
in the summer a couple nights a week.
And he goes, yeah, so I got my old office back with all the
furnishings paying a fraction of what I was paying on the lease
to use my office to come back couple nights a week in the
summers while I was in in Seattle for the summers for six
months. Doors just opened that I
couldn't see until I started moving in that direction.
And I promise you, to take that kind of risk, most of us need a
support system. And we'll go back to our basic
premise that we've been talking about.
We, we need a group of men who are challenging themselves in
similar ways. It doesn't matter business
relationship, single guys learning how to talk to women.
We, we, we need that. And, and so I want to share a
piece that was really helpful for me and understanding the
work of men's group. As I said, I've been in a men's
group for years. I LED them for years when I was
in private practice, I was leading five men's groups a
week. I believe in it and I know the
effectiveness of it. But it wasn't till about two
years ago in the men's program, I'm in with a coach named John
Weinland, who just published a book called from the core.
And it's all about men's work. So good, good book.
Check it out. And he references me a couple
times. So that's good.
So I, I'm in this men's program with John.
We have these periodic calls and John is, has worked with David
data. They're they're, they're close
for for years. And so David has come on calls
with us a couple of times and answered questions.
We had one call that was just about men's work, where guys in
my program could ask David Data anything about men's work.
And he said something that in all the years I've been involved
in men's work, I'd never really thought of.
And it was such a clear breakdown.
And, and I think this is good to remember, you know, for, for
those who are leading men's work.
He said guys will come to a men's program, a men's group.
They'll come in general for one of three reasons, or they'll
come to any individual session for one of these three reasons.
And he said, one is that they're hurting, they're in pain and
they come for support, they come to be held.
So this is the guy going through a divorce.
This is the guy that, you know, has had a big set back of some
sort. This is even the guy that, you
know, never had sex. And he goes, I'm, I'm, I'm
hurting. I, I want to find out how to get
women to want to be with me. So they come looking for, to be
held, to be nurtured, to be cared for because they're,
they're in a rough spot. So men will come to a program or
a group because they're hurting, but come to be challenged.
And, and there's probably a lot of what you guys see in the
program you do. They know we know we're, we're
not living up to our full potential.
We know we have so much in us. We know we can soar.
We know we can shine, but our fears get in the way.
Our our ADD gets in the way. Our, our self limiting beliefs
get in the way. You know, everything gets in the
way. So we need accountability, we
need structure. We need to say, here's where I'm
going, here's my plan for getting there.
And guys call me out when I deviate from the plan, when I
fall back in the old patterns. We need accountability.
We need to have our feet held to the fire.
We men need that, especially in our earliest years of life.
And then data said a third reason men come to, to men's
programs, men's groups is just to be, to just be with men.
That's me. That's me.
I'm at a stage of life. I have accountability.
I, I, I have several account this morning doing this, this
call with you guys. I'm not in my mornings writers
group on Zoom that I'm in every morning.
And you know, and it was painful actually to say, yes, I would do
this call at the time. I'm using Zoom writing.
I'm religious. I've been doing this program
for, for five years, right? I made a commitment in my men's
program five years ago to write 10 books in 10 years.
And I, I, I like a lot of guys. I wasn't, I wasn't meeting that.
And my coach said, can you start your day 90 minutes everyday
writing? I can do that.
And I've been doing that for five years.
So that's turned into about three to four hours first thing
every day because we're working on writing projects.
So I've got a writer's accountability group.
I have an exercise accountability group where we
check in every day on Signal. I've got just an accountability
group with six other conscious men that we meet every other
week. We'll meet this afternoon,
actually my time. So I need the accountability.
It keeps me going in relationship, work, career, but
mainly I just need to be, I need to be with men.
Being on a call with you 2 conscious guys, that's a great
way to start my day. So usually I'm on a call with
other guys writing other conscious men and we, we don't
even talk. We're just on Zoom doing our
writing, doing our work. Wow, wow, and.
And I've got three or four other groups, Zoom groups that I do a
week. I'm in a men's program where we
do a few workshops a year. I leave my own workshops for
men. I got to be with men.
My, my, my wife sees that. She, you know, she goes, do you
think it's time you go, go spend some time alone, just on your
own? Do you think it's time you go,
you go spend some time with your guys?
You know, she, she can see it. She, she knows that I need that
time If I, if I tell her any time.
Oh yeah, I got, I got a call today with my best friend is
John. I call him Wanda Google because
he works for Google to, to separate him from John, my
coach, who's John then train a door, which is coach or trainer.
And so I got a call with Tom Cruise today, which is Gregory
or I got a call with Brad Pitt today, which is Wanda Google as
well. I got AI got a call with the
grand hero today. That's my friend Evan, who's a
farmer. You know, I and she she's always
happy who said tell him, hold up for me, tell him hi for me.
You know, she's met many of the men.
This will be my 4th year to have a writers retreat in my house in
December. She meets all these guys that
come down. It's usually 5-6 guys.
She knows them. I do workshops in my home.
She sees the men come into our home and and they tell her,
Lapita, your husband's amazing. He's great.
My wife loves seeing men have great respect for her husband.
And I tell you what, I I just got to be with men.
There's just if I'm not, I go downhill quickly.
So the men in your programs and men listening to this.
All right, maybe you need help right now.
Maybe you're struggling, maybe you're hurting.
Go find men. I, I say masculine is a source
of love. We usually go looking for women
to give us love and nurturing. No, the feminine is about
demand. The masculine is about intention
and action. You need something done.
You want to be loved on go be with men.
So if you want to be, if you want to be held, find a men's
group. You need accountability.
Find a men's group. You just need to be with the
masculine energy of, of connectedness and love and you
know, just straightforward corny humor.
Go be with men because I, you know, all my buddies hear me say
regularly whenever we're all hanging out in groups and
workshops. I wish all the time.
I love hanging out with men. I just love hanging out with
men. You can say anything.
You can do anything. You can be direct as hell to
your brother. You don't have to walk on egg
shells that he might get his feelings hurt.
You don't have to figure out if he's happy.
Did I do something right? Did I do something wrong?
Do I got to do something different?
Fuck, you just get to show up and be you.
All right, I'll stop with that. I just, I just love doing men's
work and being in men's work. The thing, the insight for me,
Robert, for me, Sharon, is that you've spent so much time in
these groups and and actually what you said there at the end,
you just can be yourself. You can be who you are and just
be as like when you first start explaining the Mr. Nice Guys
like you're not OK as you are. And actually, what I can see
from what you just shared is like the amount of time you just
spent being who you are around man and getting love, respect,
celebration for being that man has helped, has been the remedy,
been the tonic, the medicine to help you integrate and be the
man that you want to be, not the nice guy.
And I can see that now. And like, that's why, you know,
just I want to make sure we do have a discussion on this is
that we wanted to, to give that more of a stage because going
back to the original share is like when guys see men's work
from the outside, it doesn't really compute.
You're going to get all that stuff you've just shared.
It doesn't make sense. You're going to get all that
stuff and it doesn't make sense that it would make you super
successful. So we wanted to create a better
platform in the UK because it's, you know, a lot of the things
that you mentioned in the States.
And actually I think like there is a small men's movement in the
Uki found some really, really great people when I was looking
for it. Equally, I didn't, I found that
there was a lot of stuff that I didn't resonate with that was
brought into these groups. It was just like the spaces or
the conversations. And I wanted to create one
specifically around business success, performance guys in
business with business specific problems or that late the middle
management guys trying to become the C-Suite guys, as I said to
Pete and we were talking about is like we would never have been
able to find a space. So we wanted to create an event
where guys could come in, find out about you.
We've, we actually had really, really some great luck with
getting some great psychotherapist to come and work
with the group this year. There's also a man who's really,
really well known in the market in space, who's agreed to
partner with us and he's got a, you know, phenomenal following,
but he sees in his life in the market where people are trying
to solve, solve personal issues of marketing issues and
business. Like, and me and Pete talked
about this is that in the past, sometimes we've seen guys sign
up for business programs when they've actually got personal
issues. And So what they do is another
business program. I'll sign up for another
business program, I'll make some more money, then I'll be happy.
And then they do that and they're like, holy shit, I'm
still not happy. It's because they haven't
actually gone and solved the problem, which is, you know, a
lot of the problems that you were sharing about their
relationship, about themselves, about their, how they see
themselves. And we just wanted to create a
platform to bring men together for a weekend in the UK and give
them the opportunity to learn more about the value of of men's
work. So yeah.
And you know, we've, we've had conversations about this and I'm
excited. I'm excited that you guys are
pulling this thing off with you making your impossible goal.
And by the way, I borrowed that from you guys.
Like I'm a big fan of stealing from the best in the in the
program that I'm launching. You know, out of that, that
event I told you I just ran is after I talked to you that Oh,
sixty day impossible goal. I like that.
That's that's a great a great platform to build on for, you
know, this this challenge that I'm going to do.
So thank you guys for that, by the way.
Yeah, absolutely. Our pleasure.
So, so just to talk about that event quickly, we actually
haven't come up with a name yet, but we just like as Robert
talked about earlier, just started and got straight into
action and we're like, right, we want to do this event.
It's going to be in January. We picked a date 28th slash 29th
of January 2023 and we just started.
Every day we're doing 1 little thing going towards it and we're
getting better and better and better at planning this event.
We've got some fantastic speakers lined up, including
Robert. We're now look at these amazing
venues. We've got loads of people
talking to us. And so get that in your Diaries
now, if you haven't already. 28th, 29th of January 2023,
London, Outskirts of London. That's what it's going to be.
It's on my calendar guys. Yeah, Robert's flying over from
the States to come and be with us.
And that in itself just speaks to the quality of the, you know,
we listened to the podcast today.
The quality and the depth that we've gone after just for the
speakers is phenomenal. But equally, just like getting
around the man in a room, we're going to get a big room and
we're going to really, really just do our best to create an
environment where guys get to connect with one another,
experience stuff together. So it's not just going to be
your typical sit there TEDx style, you know, nod your head.
I think this is interesting. There's going to be some
experiential work as well. And just to if you've been
thinking of doing that, it's probably a very low bar to it's
not joining amends group. It's not committing to going on
your own to a smaller group of guys.
It's a big event. So you can have some level of
anonymity as well. And my perception is that that's
going to help a lot of you guys who are listening to Thought
General. Actually, I'm I'm interested in
this men's work thing. I feel safer going to a bigger
group and a bigger thing where there's more likely to be people
that don't know each other than stepping into a quite an
intimate man's group. And that's what I found because
like when I walked through the door of my first man's group
that wasn't a course, I knew that they met on a regular
basis. I did feel really quite worried
because I was like these guys really know each other.
And as like, part of the reason I think that having the big
event is going to help is that you can definitely know that
there's going to be a lot of people that don't know each
other at that event. And then coming together in
that, that single cause, which is being a great man, being
successful in your marriage, being successful in your job,
and being the best version of yourself you can be.
And I think that's just quite a powerful common goal, right?
Yeah, I'll say something because it's funny that we have to pitch
to men. Oh, come to this event, you'll
be, you know, kind of anonymous. Nobody will know you.
You don't have to commit to anything.
You're not funny that that's the pitch that we give to men.
But, but let me say this too. I'm fortunate that, you know, I,
I get invited to different events to, to speak and I, I
mean #1 I'm flattered and I, I, I enjoy the speaking and the
sharing of ideas. But I tell you what, what I
enjoy the most about coming and doing men's events is that I get
to meet the men. And, you know, a lot of times
they're, you know, they're in a big hotel and, you know, you're
into these meeting spaces and there's a lobby outside with all
the book things and all that. And, and, you know, I usually
sit out in the lobby in between all the sessions.
I just sit out there and you know, most the attendees usually
figure out who I am pretty quick because I'm on the, you know,
I'm on the schedule, the roster, I've already spoken and I just
sit out there and guy, I watch. I just watch the guys and guys
come and talk to me and, and so I connect.
I like doing that. I like I just again, I like
being with men, but what I watch at these is these kind of
conferences, you know, that are big and, you know, kind of
anonymous. Usually there's usually groups
of two or three guys that often show up who do know each other.
They've all, hey, let's go do this thing.
You know, they know each other. But I noticed that men start
clicking and connecting because, you know, we got to eat so
often. You know, you have meals in
either the hotel restaurant or you go as big groups out there
and you got to sit next to somebody while you're eating and
somebody on the other side of you.
And before this thing's over, you know people, right?
And you've made connections and you're, you're, you're going to
follow up on some of them. And maybe you found resources
you didn't know existed. And a really good friend of mine
now, I met him at a conference I did in Florida three or four
years ago. And it was, he's a psychologist
in Denver, Co. And he was speaking on the
program. And we just happened to go out
and eat a couple of times. And I, I, I've been in his home.
He's met my wife. We talked every couple months or
so. We became good friends just
because we met at a conference, right?
So, yes, do come to this. If you kind of need the, you
know, blend into the crowd, not be noticed, great, Come on.
And if you know you need the connection with other men,
conscious men, with men that want to be good men and want to
live up to their full potential, man, I can't think of a better
way to go do it. Yeah, yeah, because it is funny
because guys like what you're saying there.
Actually, I went to a conference to speak last week and it's
actually for ladies. But watching like how I showed
up actually was really interesting because I naturally
retreat. I was not actually, I don't like
you. I do don't naturally come
forward and start conversations in in places I don't know very
well. But actually, by the end of the
day and the weekend, I felt like had some really significant
conversations with people on it and a really long lasting
relationship. So the question I wanted to
answer is that guys who are thinking to come into this
event, like when they see people like Robert speak and you know,
we've got some, we've got Dan joining us.
We've got we've got on the list a psychotherapist who's going to
be joining us as well. Is what can they actually expect
to get out of that event? Like what can you expect to get
from coming to to be around of the man?
Is that a lot of the things that we're going to be sharing are,
are going to be things that are going to exponentially help you
in your relationship, in your business, in your parenting and
actually just being a guy day-to-day.
And some of the endeavours like as Robert shared before actually
acknowledging that the there are groups, support groups, men's
groups, performance groups that you can access.
And, and actually they'll be, they'll be there to see in plain
sight because you'll see, see so many men even from the Awakened
Mom project as we were there on the weekend.
And that's why I feel it's so important because we haven't got
that event in the UK. There is one event similar in
the UK, but we don't don't really have one in the UK.
Yeah, I'm thrilled you guys are doing this.
I'm thrilled to be a part of it. And here's the beautiful thing
is you guys know of lunch and anything like this, you go into
it not knowing a lot, being scared, having questions.
You do it once, you go, OK, that worked, that worked.
OK, we could have done that a little differently.
We could have done that better. All now in next year, let's try
this. And and like, you know, once
you've anything, you know, well, there's walking up and talking
to a girl for the first time or launching your first men's
event. You know, if you don't, you
don't know what's going to happen until you do it.
And then after you do it, you go, oh, that was scary, but
let's do it again. Like getting on a roller
coaster. That was scary.
Let's do it again. And yeah, I know I I haven't
even thought about what I'm going to talk about yet when I'm
there. I I actually love doing Q and AI
love just being there, letting people ask because I find out,
you know, what's going on in people's lives.
What do they most need? And so I, I just, I just love
being up in front of the crowd and, and just being able to get
to meet their deepest needs, you know, and, and use, I'm a
relationship guy. That's my training, that's my
experience. But you know, I'm also a
businessman and I, I, I haven't gotten a paycheck since 1988.
So I, I, I was an entrepreneur before anybody used the word
entrepreneur. I was a digital nomad before
anybody used the term digital nomad.
So I love talking business as well.
So what, what whatever direction this goes, I know, I know
there's just going to be so much great information and just so
much energy. I tell you what, the guys that
are there, they, they will, they will be so energized.
They'll go out in public maybe with them and a few other guys
and people will actually ask you, who are you guys?
What are you about? Because there will be such an
energy about you from challenging yourself and being
with other other men who are challenging themselves as well.
I promise you that's going to happen.
Yeah, yeah. Like, like we've spoken before,
Robert, and you've come and spoken to the guys before and
like this conversation highlighted something for me
earlier and I'm still thinking about.
I can't get out of my head. And it's when you talk about the
nice guy and how actually that that comes back down to
parenthood and the way you were brought up and as a baby.
And I've got a Leo's 20 months old and I'm like, shit, like,
you know, you know, and, and I, I am very aware that the way I
act around Leo is, you know, that, you know, that's going in
his brain, that's going in his emotions and actually my nice
guy tendencies. And I was thinking, do you know,
so I'm going to share something now that I did this morning and
I felt bad afterwards. So we're walking out the door to
go to take Leo to nursery and he threw a little tantrum, right?
He got angry and he hit the, the dog's kennel door and it slammed
the door and it, and where Thor was in it.
And, and I told Leo off because I was enraged that he'd just
done this. And I so I told Leo off And
afterwards when I sat in the car thinking.
Probably I was trying to do was just express his anger, right?
He got angry for a second. He was trying to express it and
then I've told him off for expressing that.
And then what did I do for a bloody long time in my life and
still do now? Was I suppressed my anger and
suppressed my emotions? Because you were taught to.
Because I was taught to by my by my parents, right?
And and society, right. I'm thinking I thought about it
in the car. And then when you said that
earlier on, God, you know, this is such an important thing for
me as a father, right? Just being aware, like, just
being aware of, of these sorts of, and like just goes back to
how important being in these sorts of groups are and having
these sorts of conversations are because you get that awareness.
You're like, ah, do you know what?
I'm now aware of that. Yeah.
Next time that happens, I might act a little bit differently.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, again, my, my
background's marriage and family therapy.
So in the past, I, I worked with a lot of parents and I told
every parent, you're going to fuck your kids up.
What we all do. I mean, society fucks kids up.
Parents fuck kids up. Your kids going to get fucked
up. They're going to need therapy
someday. They're going to need coaching
someday. But I would tell the parents the
real issue is not how you fuck your kid up.
The real issue is how you recover from it and you
recovered from it. That's the real issue.
You lost it. Your your child was, it was was
just asserting his desire. You were asserting your desire.
You realize, oh, wait a minute, I need to do that more artfully.
I need to do that more masterfully.
And you'll do that differently next time.
And that's, that's, that's what it's all about.
But again, if we're hiding all of this stuff from the world, if
we're not talking about it, if we're not letting anybody know
about it, we're going to tend to just keep perpetuating the same
thing over and over again and again.
That's why I joined the men's program again, five years ago.
I was not having really pretty interactions with my wife.
They, they were going South. And, you know, we both loved
each other, but I thought, this is not going in a good
direction. I need to be around other people
where I can talk about what's happening to get better tools.
So again, this is we're all flawed, imperfect human beings.
Flawed, imperfect husbands, boyfriends, lovers, fathers,
business people. That's OK.
We're willing to keep challenging ourselves and
growing and recovering that. That's the real question.
Yeah. And again, I'll get it will be
the broken record here. We need other men to help us do
this. We need other conscious growing
men to do this. Yeah, just shameless.
Plug here, guys. Listen to the podcast.
Please do us a favour and rate and review us wherever you are
because we're trying to grow this podcast and your reviews
absolutely help. We also have a crazy interview
with Robber that we did a while ago in our Facebook group.
It is the most watched interview in the Facebook group and there
are lots of trainings in there. There's lots of videos in there
on men's work. So search the Awaken Man project
on Facebook and you'll find it. Join it, you can watch that.
Yeah, thank. You shameless plugs.
They're the best kind. Yeah, we practiced that.
That's so polished. Just off the cuff it.
Just came fever. It's like infomercial style, but
honestly, Robert you trumped is like your video in session you
did with your wakeman group. Guys watch it and they messages
saying wow, blew my mind. The stuff you shared on loving
dominance, things he said about being part of a men's group and
why it's important, like it literally did help so many men.
So I'm really grateful for that and just the fact you've, you
know, committed to coming over and being part of this event.
Guys like Pete said he reviewed the podcast, but also share this
with another man because this is the way that we're going to
share this message. Don't be selfish.
Don't keep this goal to yourself.
I'm sure what you've listened to, if it's affected you as much
as I've listened, I've enjoyed listening to it today.
Please share another man because that's what we're trying to do
is trying to read the word of how much men's work is needed
for so many men in this current climate.
And come to the event, you know, you're going to hear if you join
the Facebook group, you'll hear about it.
If you follow us, we'll tell you about it.
We'll be we'll be pushing out information about it.
And Robert's going to be there and we're going to have some
incredible world class speakers alongside him.
So come and join us. Robert's want to thank you so
much for the investment in time energy you put into today's
session. And it's been an absolute
pleasure once again to to have your company.
Thank you and thank you for the invitation and that man.
I'm looking forward to London. Yeah, me too.
Thank you, Pete. Right.
And team insights on the Doctor Robert Glover podcast.
Ben, let's get into this one, mate.
This is going to be a good one. Yeah, that was a great episode.
I really first of I think first and foremost, I couldn't believe
that he came on the podcast. Like I remember, I remember like
getting in touch with him and he's like, yeah, sure.
I'll come on your podcast because we were growing this,
you know, men's movement podcast and like just just that the
first insight for me, it was just how he showed her.
I mean, he first started recording and he and he had this
guy. So this guy.
So Robert is 60 plus years old. Maybe he's.
Mid 60s. Yeah, right.
And he came on everything prepped.
He has four routers in case it goes down.
He's moving and shaking with his tech.
And like, I'll just remember singing.
I was like, Oh my God, this guy is like he's, he's phenomenal.
He was really as a guy, he was really inspirational.
And then, and then the second thing I noticed as well is that
he was just like so easy to talk to, like super duper easy.
And even we had some tech issues at the start of the call, which
was like, but it's all super calm.
But that was the biggest, you know, the, the first insight I
had when we, when we got on the call with him, because like I'd
read his book, I was like, this guy's in my world.
This guy, I know I referenced him as like the Alex Ferguson of
men's work. He, he, he was, I was like, Oh
my God. But I think he was our first big
guest. He was, he was our first big
guest and he was and still is. He's just phenomenal guest.
We've had him on since we talked on stage with him and being just
like Ben said there, the guy has life force like he has like he
like you can feel the aura of the guy.
And what I noticed about that episode now, like re listening
to it and he said that he started men's work when he was
in his mid 30s, just like, you know, we we started men's work
kind of early 30s. And now Robert is, you know, his
mid 60s. So he's been doing this for he's
been doing this for 30 odd years, 30 plus years he's been
doing the work for. But you can see like his
commitment to his own personal development and like how easy he
is to talk to how smooth the podcast when his life force,
when you see him in person, that is down to his commitment of
doing the the the work doing it self development.
Yeah, and I, I just wanted to like remind y'all, if you're
not, if you've not read, no, like no, no more Mr. Nice Guy.
It's the, it's the foundational book of, of men's work.
So like we talked about this on, I think we've nearly every
podcast recently we've mentioned this is when you give someone a
book and it's, it's a book that changes their life.
You never forget the person that told you to to read that book.
And I remember it was actually Craig who's been on the podcast
early on. It's like, it gave me that book.
He's like, oh, you need to read that book.
And I remember reading it thinking I'm not a nice guy.
I'm not all these things. And I now looking back this so
just that episode was tipped it two years ago.
Yeah, two years in October. Two years ago, literally
thousands of downloads later and I look back and I'm like, it's
still the most popular episode on Awake Man podcast.
I look back and like how far I've come since then, but also
how far I've come since I first read his book.
You know, I've read his book three times and every time I've
read the book, I've seen something different about what's
currently going on in my relationship.
A because I went from being single.
Sorry, I've been from like newly divorced to in a relationship
where I'm, you know, was like learning and going through the
work to now married. I'm probably going to read it
again because now I'm married and I'm like, there's a whole
host of new things that it's going to come up.
So there's something about like, you know, that not fearing the
guy that's done 1000 kick, sorry, one kick 1000 times
instead of 1000 kicks once. It's like rereading that book
has been such a staple for me in my I I wouldn't say like a
proper nice guy recovery because I think when you speak to a lot
of guys, they're like, I'm a proper nice guy.
I'm a proper nice guy. I'm I'm afraid of conflict.
He talks about himself. He's like, I'm a nice guy.
You know, I'm AI don't I'm afraid of conflict.
I'm nice to people. I'm grateful.
I was half on heart, half and half out on that one.
Yeah, yeah. Talking about evolution,
listening back to that podcast, I, I didn't bash guys in the
woods drumming their bashing their drums and doing yoga and
sunning their arseholes, but I didn't allude to bashing them.
And now I, what do I find myself?
I mean, I'm not in the woods bashing my drum or sunning my
arsehole, but I am doing yoga and and actually like witnessing
that evolution of myself over the last two years, being super,
super in the warrior go, go, go, drive direction action fucking
hard as nails, chest up. So now actually leaning into I
fucking love the yo. I love the polarity of doing jiu
jitsu and then going and doing yoga after the same day.
And it's really evolved me as a man and just witnessing that in
myself. And now I recommend it to guys
and when I see guys who are I'm like, fucking hell, you and me
two years ago. You need to, I'm sorry to say
this mate, but you have to stop enough a little bit and do
something that's a little bit outside your comfort zone so you
can stop being this like hard faced man.
Yeah. Well, I, I think that was we, we
did that interview and you were still just about leaving your
company. Yeah.
I think you were just going through that and you'd just come
in to wake a man full time. And yeah, I can see, I can see
the difference in you looking back, like, and if I just said
to you, dude, like, let's do some yoga.
The thing is though, you being you, you'd probably gone.
Yeah, I'm actually open to do it.
I'll go and do it. But there's a difference
between, yeah, I'll go and do it just to serve go and doing it
versus I want to go and do this. I actually see it as part of my
identity. I actually see it as a part of
my, my growth as a guy. And he actually says this and he
goes, Oh, you know, if you're going to go and do it as you
work in a men's group, you're going to do it as you're going
to go to a jiu jitsu group, you're going to start doing
yoga, whatever you choose. What I think was really
important is that actually you can do it all.
And I think this is what I think that this is what so many.
Well, I definitely had myself is that I thought men's work had to
be done. Sat in a circle with a group of
men in a Pilates studio and it and I was like, Oh, this is my
idea of men's work. And what Awake a Man created is
this ability to do it in such a different way.
You know, doing it in cool hotels in Greece, doing it in
like London, in nice places, coming to Dubai and doing
skydiving. That's all men's work.
And like all that stuff is men's work because it's spending time
with guys. It's spending time with guys who
are on the same wavelength as you.
And that's the medicine. And I'm thinking that, you know,
there was, I've actually kind of bit not, not not annoyed at
myself, but I was like, I was more like, I need a group.
And me and Pete have talked about this.
I need a group in Dubai. And I say the word need.
I don't often use the word need frivolously.
I, I not, I want to be in AI need a group of men in Dubai.
And I think that was a big thing that he was really like selling
in that podcast is like, guys, listen to me.
I know what I'm talking about. Guys need guys and like, and
like as you listen back to the episode, it's like multiple
times in the episode, guys get around guys, guys get around
guys. And guess what happened when I
went home over the summer? All.
The guys who haven't been around, guys have been
struggling emotionally, yeah, massively, because they are
disconnected from guys. And that's all I saw all the way
through the summer. Yeah, well that, well, he says
that men are looking for something.
Men are searching. Even if they don't realise
consciously that they're searching and they're looking
for something, they are. And most guys will then end up
in some form of group. It could be a Yogi space, it
could be a jiu jitsu club, it could be an MMA club, it could
be a men's group. It could be and most guys will
end up there. Might not be the right space for
them to be in. Might have to navigate that and
evolve and find some different groups.
But men are searching and we do fucking belong in tribes.
Yeah, actually it was it was even just connecting with with
one of the guys and and like he actually called me out the other
week and he said, oh, well, if you've got a gift that you
haven't, you're not sharing with the world.
I think you're a bit of a see you next Tuesday.
And I was like, oh, that's exactly what I needed to hear.
And I think you don't get that kind of direct love in anywhere
other than than a probably a proper men's group where you've
got a conscious man. And I think that was a big
distinction you kept on coming back to as well.
And, and to your point there, Pete, there's a difference
between a group of men and a group of conscious men.
And I and I, I love my mates. I, I love my mates.
We we spend great time together over the summer, we got
together, but I don't know about you and maybe you want to talk
to this as well. Is that when I'm with a group of
men who that are not conscious that don't like talking about
deep things that don't like really open and open, I'm like,
there's AI felt. I'm like there's a conversation
that we're not having here. I'm standing in a room like
there's a conversation that's not been hard here.
And whereas I get on a call with you or I speak to the you know,
especially with it's like, oh, we have that.
We'll say the things that need to be said and we talk about the
things that need to be talked about.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Oh, fucking absolutely. I was.
I was out with 12 guys about a month ago and some of these guys
were new into being in a kind of a group of conscious men.
There was probably half the group that were very new to
this. The guy was sat next to me and
he was talking about his, he got twins, young, young twins.
And but he was talking about like how the last two years have
been so hard. It's been such a chore looking
after them. It was all like it was all down,
down, down, down, down. And he and he said, he said, you
know, you've got, you've got a boy, you know what I mean?
And I was like, dude, do you mind if I challenge you here?
And he and he was like, yeah, sure.
He and I don't think anyone had ever asked him that.
And the guy and the guys opposite who's in this world, he
is like be in a group like this. Get used to guys saying that to
you. And I challenged him on what he
was saying. And I was like, I think you need
to change your story there like about you having two beautiful
twins that like you, you are blessed, yet you're talking
about it like it's the hardest and worst thing in your life.
Like like that is the reframe the story here, man.
And he was like, he was like, fuck yeah, thanks.
And the other guy was like, get used to that.
Be in a group like this and get used to being challenged on your
on your narratives that probably aren't serving you.
Yeah, I, I, I think that you don't get that unless you're in
a proper group of a closed group to a certain degree of man.
And that's like in the workplace, you, you wouldn't get
that. It's almost now and this is what
I'm seeing. It's like I was speaking to a
client yesterday, actually. And it's like he wants to say
that in, in a group in work, but he's so worried about the
legalities of how you can speak to people who works in the
States. And he's like, I'm so, you know,
I'm afraid of what I could would happen if I spoke to someone
like that in in the States. And so I, I actually, we took,
we did an episode on radical candour and I was like, read
radical candour. It's like that is a definite way
to speak to people in the workplace.
But yeah, but like I think that this is something like I've
realised since is that love, like love for man is challenge.
Like that is actually like really giving a shit about a
mate or a buddy or a is not just pacifying him when he's
struggling. It's like say it's the sayings.
He's like, listen man, I think the way you're seeing this is a
bunch of bullshit. You need to look at it
differently. And actually, when you receive
that from another guy, I don't think you ever go, yeah, fuck
you. You know, it's always it's
always like, oh, yeah. Do you know what?
Thanks for. Thanks for, you know, holding
that mirror for for. Me, I want Cher here.
I had this yesterday, not receiving this from another guy,
receiving this from a woman. So yesterday I went and, and met
someone we dated for a little bit and we, we, we ended things.
We just do, you know what? This isn't right?
Let's, we ended things and I met up with her yesterday like we're
staying friends and we had an amazing conversation and we're
having a great conversation. And she said to me, she said
that, Pete, do you mind if I share something with you that I
think could be valuable? That you're like, oh, here we
go. First, first thought was away we
go. Then second thought was
actually, and I let fucking breathe, let me, let me lean
into this. And I was like, and I was like,
yeah, absolutely. I'm, I'm, I'm open to you, to
you. Winston on the inside.
Yeah, there was actually, there was.
There was a little bit like fucking.
I have no idea what she's going to say to me.
She's a super conscious woman. I really, really respect her
super high level, very, very intellectual, very emotionally
connected and and she shared something with me and I was
like, do you know what? Yeah, I I super appreciate you
saying that. Thank you.
There would have been a time it like.
I thought you were going to tell us what it was.
No, I'm not going to say what it is.
I think it's a. Little bit too much, yeah, Yeah.
Was it, was it like, what was it?
Was it a big hit? Oh, do you know, do you know
what I will tell you what it was it's it was it wasn't a big hit.
She she was said the way that you're because I was like, look,
I'm being honest. I'm processing some stuff to do
with my previous relationship. I need, I need I want to be
neutral going into a new relationship.
I actually don't feel like I'm neutral right now.
This is why we we stop things like I don't feel like I'm
neutral right now. I've still got some work to do.
It's unfair or new for me to give you a commitment that's
void, right? And she really respected that
and, and she said, I like the way she goes.
My thing for you is the way that you are processing things.
You're kind of looking at it like a simple guy, but what's
the quickest way that you can fix this?
What's the three-step method to fix this?
And she was like, I just think you should just find a modality
and really stick with that modality and and just do the
work and just continue with that.
Mate, thank you for sharing that.
Holding it back, you motherfucker.
I was like, that's, that's strong, man, that's strong.
Yeah, yeah. So and I was like, and but two
years ago, I would not have received that.
I would have been fucking guard up.
No, I know, right? You know, da, da, da, da, da.
What do you know? But actually doing a lot of
this, the work that we're doing as developing as guys, I can
hold that space when a female is is is provided.
Ultimately she was holding me to a higher standard, right?
And rather than me saying that as fuck off or like why, why you
trying to knock me down or whatever that looks like, I was
able to hold that, receive it and go, yeah.
Do you know what great, great advice?
Yeah, I think that Robert talked about that in the episode.
He's like this you are in the I can't remember what you said
about about about instant gratification world where you're
like a boy and you're like, you know, hang around.
We're looking seeking women's attention.
And I think that that's probably like looking back years.
If I'd have got that kind of feedback, I would have been so
wounded by that. I would have been like a like a
hissy fit little boy that didn't want to hear it.
And it makes you realise how far and I and I think, you know,
we've talked about the the podcast before, like we've grown
up substantially by going out and having these conversations
with the likes of Robert Gillian Schwecki.
What's got conscious and coupling?
Catherine Woodward, Thomas. Catherine Woodward Thomas Like
we've gone out, we've sought really high level advice from
the best in the world and it's actually like it's it's
accelerated the rate of. Of what's the word for it?
It's. It's like initiation really,
isn't it? It's like becoming, you know,
going from a boy to a man. And I think even even over the
summer, I, I got some great friends across the whole
spectrum of ages, like from, you know, 25 year old all the way to
65. I got a great network of
different age guys that I speak to.
And even like all the guys that I suppose like I can, I can sit
down and like, oh, that's quite a the boy like behaviour going
on there. You know, I can, I see and I can
see there. He's like, oh, that's quite.
And lots of guys haven't done that work where they can, they
can receive something like that. Because it's hard.
Yeah. And it's part that's part and
parcel of being a mature masculine man is working on your
unconscious triggers and your unconscious deep rooted,
sometimes trauma and and actually work and and doing the
work around that rather than being even ignoring it.
I got a story actually. It's just like, so one of the
things that I've, I've really had to work on and I'm very
consciously working on it is that my, my mum's, my mum's part
in me to leave things like she's a lever and she's like leave
things like doesn't like admin, financial admin.
Like that's, I didn't get my dad's.
I was like really annoyed and I was like watching my dad one day
and I was like, why didn't I get your traits of being like super
organised around things like if a bill comes through, it's paid
yesterday, you know, like that's my dad.
And I remember like leave and leave and leave and leave
things. And then, so we were going
through the airport on the way back from Dubai from the UK to
Dubai, London to Dubai. I left the iPad on the plane and
it was just what it was like. I normally do a sweep search.
I'm very like diligent normally. But just on this occasion the
ipod's still in the pocket. I can see it on fire.
My freaking iPod, it's going round by airport at the moment
and they they can't find it. Yeah, OK.
Anyway, But anyway, Poppy made a pot shot comment and she said,
Oh yeah, another time where you've been disorganised and
you've cost us money. And I was like, Oh my God, I
just, I was, it was late, you know, it's 10:00 at night.
I just, and I spat my dummy out and I said, Oh yeah, you're just
so fucking mean. Why are you always so mean?
Just like, why are you mean? And, and what she'd done is she
pushed a really big trigger for me.
I wasn't like proper like spit my dummy out, be really
horrible. I was like, that really hurt.
And that two years ago would have been a long time that I'd
have sat in that pain. And yeah, interesting.
Because like when I think as you become more conscious as a guy,
you can deal with that kind of stuff way better.
And I just, and I do know what I've realised now, it's just an
area for me to grow up. Yes.
You know, and that's, and I and The thing is I've been actively
working on this as well. I've been really, really good.
And it was just because I think it hurt more because I've been
working on it and she pushed on it.
Yeah. So.
One thing Robert talked about, and I have to admit, when he
talked about that in that episode, I glazed over it and
didn't understand it, but he said that sex and shame is a
real portal to our deepest work. And he, he, he said that.
And he, he, he said it like twice, like in the same sort of
sentence sort of thing. And when I really listened to
it, I was like, now I'm starting to understand a little bit more
about that. And now I've heard others who I
really respect in the industry, like John Wineland, for example,
has also talked about that. And that's, that's like, and I
have to admit that's one that I am delving.
It's one that I've started to delve into this year and just
fucking explore what that even means around sex and shame.
And that's where our deepest work is.
Yeah, I heard the other day, I think it's it for depth you need
closeness. It's like if you want to be
deep, if you want to be a deep person that's got a hold a lot,
you've got to be able to to create closeness, like closeness
or proximity creates depth. And I was like, that is so
interesting because when you are in shame, it's the last thing
you want to do is get close and intimate with someone
physically, physically. Like when Poppy and I, when
we're not, we're not on par together, the last thing I want
to do is be close with that person.
And if you think about sex is the ultimate, like technically
it is actually, I don't know if if it was on one of the ones
that we did or I was on a, or listen to something, but one of
the behaviours that shows a lack of comfort, like being
comfortable with your partners. You have sex, the moment you
have sex, you both come, both have an orgasm and then you go
split apart and then you go on your phones.
Yeah, wow. And I was like, oh, I can.
And like hands up. I definitely can see moments of
that. I was like, Oh my God.
And I can't remember who was it who said that, but that was
something I wanted. I I definitely want to explore
deeper because like that is definitely something that I can
see that as a shade in, in like in relationships I've talked
about with other people and my own and I was like, yeah.
And, and I think it is a shame thing.
It's like a protection thing. Yeah, I hadn't.
You know, like you have this ultimate moment of closeness and
then you want to split apart. Yeah, well, I was with the guy
last week in person and we spoke about this.
That was the wrong time to say I was with the guy here.
OK. Meant to get things.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, no, no. So talking about his
relationship and he said that because we're like, we're
talking about sex, talking about relationships.
And, and I was like, tell me about your sex life.
I want what's what's going on? And and that actually came about
and I was like, dude, that the time like after you've had sex,
don't, don't let it be this like one and done.
And then you both gel off and go somewhere else, like how that
has a has a full experience and really be in that moment and
particularly afterwards. That is the that is the time for
really deep and meaningful conversations.
That's because you're both so open and you've both been just
so intimate. That is the time for really deep
and intimate conversation. Yeah, yeah.
That's and and actually I heard that, I heard that in that, in
that conversation. There you go.
It's like Pete's, Pete's have you speaking to a blurry Pete on
the on the camera team. So have you been listening in?
Fuck, it doesn't look blurry. Well.
Someone told me the other day there's like, Oh yeah, you know,
it's, it takes a long time editing the podcast.
I'm like, don't edit it. Then just put it out raw like we
do, you know, it's like, so the, the, the, the closeness side.
And I, I've realised that when we, when we went and talked to
so Pete and I did a breath work session in Dubai when Pete came
over and she said, oh, you know that I've got this sexual
consciousness workshop. There's AI think it was Nick
Warner that was delivering it. Is that correct?
I. Don't know whether she was
delivering it. She mentioned something she
mentioned and someone she knew. And I think that's what actually
happens with guys is that you work on yourself.
Like I think this is like, you know, the guys listening and we
think that, oh, we'll work on the sex and then I'll feel
better and then I can work on the relationship.
And it's, it's a kind of bullshit way of thinking about
it really. It's like, Oh yeah, we'll just
get the sex right. Have a more, have a bit more sex
and then I'll feel better. So I'll treat her better and
actually even like that's the kind of nice guy pattern, if you
think about that is like, oh, I'll be super nice.
So I get more sex, so I'll feel better and the relationship will
be better. That isn't a kind of a nice guy.
What's the word algorithm? Well.
Actually, it's kind of one of the Covert Contracts.
Yeah. Whereas actually looking back,
it's no, I will work on myself. I will get myself right.
I won't worship sex. I will lead in the relationship.
I will be the giver of love instead of wanting it all the
time. I will lead like the man and I
will naturally fill my own cup up with around other man.
So I am left being wanted and that's the first step.
And when you've achieved that, that's when you'll your sex life
will change. That's when you'll see
significant change. And I think that that is the
biggest shift in the thinking that I had, you know, since that
podcast that we did with Robert. Yeah, and Robert, so he talks
about Covert Contracts. So the three Covert contracts,
the what's the number one? I'll be liked and loved if I'm a
good guy. Women want to have sex with me
if I'm a good guy. Yeah, so, so I, I think I run
that same program. I was so afraid.
I, I think that's what stopped me from having conflict in my
business relationships. My staff with my, with my
partners are so afraid of being in conflict.
That's how that manifested for me.
I was just afraid of conflict. I didn't want to have conflict.
I struggled with it. I just wanted to be nice and I
just wanted to, and then that's what I thought would get me
liked. Yeah.
And this goes back to boundaries is that you can should have
boundaries you you can say no. Yeah, I, I think I've just been
like over the last two years, I've just got saying I'm not OK
with that. That's kind of my, that's what
I, I don't know if I'm OK with that.
Like, you know, Pete knows me really well.
I, if it's something I've, I've got on my mind, like even just
even before the podcast, I'll say, I'll say it.
I'm like, this is what's going on for me.
And I think that's where previous to all of this work, I
would not have said that. I would have just ruminated on
it and I probably talked to someone else who had no, I, I
would probably have talked to Poppy about the same problem I
was just talking to you about directly.
And Poppy's not going to, she's probably going to fuel it, you
know, like give her opinion on it or give a different opinion
on it. And actually, that's something
I've, I've noticed in my personal leadership.
I was like, if I've got a problem, instead of reading
about it, I go to someone. I'm not happy about this and I'm
resolve it way quicker than in the past where I've just hold it
in. Yeah, and think about it,
overthink about it, overanalyze it.
Come up with 16 different scenarios in your head.
You've got. The conversation with the
source. It was like, I actually said to
speak before. I was like, am I overthinking
this? And you're like, yeah, a little
bit. Yeah, absolutely.
And it's so covert contract #2 if I meet your needs without me
asking, then you'll meet mine without me asking.
Yeah. Read my mind and then give me
something in return. Yeah, I think I honestly, this
is like where I'm at in my relationship at the moment.
Like, like, in a good way and like, like working through this.
We've just got married. I think that when we got married
and when we like afterwards, like when Poppy and I got
married afterwards, Poppy had a reel down.
Like she was just like lost because that was her North Star
in the sky for such a long time. And we were at home and not
ashamed to say this. It was a hard time.
We'd come back and let someone wrecked our house and we'd like
they, the summer was tough for all different reasons.
And they wouldn't like my sexual needs were just not prioritised
at all by myself or by here. There was.
And I was like, there's still needs.
And I was like, this is what I was navigating.
I was like, well, actually, that was the covert contract.
It's like in my head, it was like, no, you should want to
have sex with me. And it was actually resolved and
we're talking one day and she's like, and she said like we, we
wrote down our goals, like what what we want to happen.
And and then one of the things that she wrote down is like, I
want to want Ben more. And I that even just seeing that
for me was like, that's a really positive thing.
And that was really because, like, I think especially for
when it comes to needs is like, when do you sit down with your
partner and say, these are my needs?
Like have you have you done it since like, actually this is a
good question since that. And like, as you've been dating,
have you talked about your needs more with with people?
Yes. Like how do you do it?
Go on, how do you excite? I think a lot of guys listening,
like how did you even have that conversation while dating?
Oh. Such a fun conversation to have
it just simply as like, have you ever, have you ever thought
about like your wants and needs in a relationship?
And then and then they'll respond and like, and then it
just stems from there. So, oh, cool.
Like what? What does that look like?
I'm super interested. And some something like I've had
this, that sometimes it's like with a woman, they're like,
yeah, this, this, this, this, this.
Other times it's some things. And then I'd actually like to
leave some to be discovered during during a dating process.
I'm like, hey, absolutely cool, but I like I am finding the more
and my like wants and needs have apartment.
They absolutely evolve. Like I discover things about
myself whilst getting into relationships and dating and and
well, even when I'm on my own, I'm like, oh, that's really
fucking important to me. Now.
I kind of like add that to my list so to speak, but then but
like talking about it and not just like once actively
frequently talking about it. Yeah, it's.
As a as a, as a conversation, not a direction, not a
direction. Hey, this is what I fucking
need. It's like, no, that's between
us. Like how can we cultivate this
relationship by both understanding our wants and
needs? Yeah, I don't think I'm doing
enough of that at the moment like that.
This is like a just talk about it now that this is a real.
But that's, that's what, that's what that's literally, you know,
if I meet your needs without me asking, then you'll meet me
because then that's like, well, I told you once like a year ago,
why have you not remembered? Yeah.
Oh, yeah. It's like, it's like, why?
Why am I not your biggest priority?
Yeah, it's like it's quite funny because we were we were talking
about this on the way to as I drove Poppy to meet Rach, he and
his friend and they may the we were talking about needs on the
way and like actually, do you know what?
And I was like, should we get a massage table?
Because like we both like massage.
We actually get couples massage. People come around to the house
and what's amazing in Dubai for around 60 lbs you can get a
massage, a couples massage and it's fucking great.
It's a really good massage. 2 two people come around the
house, beds, everything like that amazing 60 lbs which is
really, really good. And the I was like, should we
get a massage table? Because she was like, oh, I've
got this problem, my neck. And like, you know, should I go
to a physio? Should go to a car?
But I was like, yeah, you can go to all of them, but also why
don't I just like give you a proper massage?
And I was like, hang on a second.
Do you reckon we get a massage table?
Because one of my needs is physical touch, like and like
this is somewhere where you can start with this guys, if you're
listening to this as well, is love languages.
And two different guys I spoke to over the summer, one of the
biggest fuck ups they were making was they just were
missing their partners love language.
And so like, yes, absolutely have that conversation and
assert your needs. One of the things that you
actually need to make sure that your partner understands is how
you give and receive love. And for me, it's physical mine,
mine's physical touch and it's quality.
Oh, it's not quality time. It's more words of affirmation.
Like that means a lot to me. Words of affirmation and
physical touch and And I remember like talking to
different guys over the summer like yeah, but I know she she
says I don't love her, but I do all these other things for.
Her. I buy her flowers.
I buy her handbags. Yeah, like she just wants this,
you know, this other thing. Yeah.
So if you actually just go into Google and write in the five
love languages assessment, it's a quick, it's an easy win for
you guys as well. Yeah, I because I know mine.
I tell, I tell women I'm like, by the way, and it's great
conversations like have you done the love love language test?
Yes or no? And then we can talk about it.
Oh, here's mine, by the way, just so you know, you do this
for me. I'm put you in your hands.
Yeah, it's taken a blowjob. That's it.
That's kind of language. That's it.
Yeah, that's quite funny. But I.
But seriously, I think that I think that that was a big, big
insight for me about, you know, and I think this is what's been
nice about the podcast as well. It's like.
I'm still working through a lot of these stuff.
Like I consider the start of this, this kind of conversation
today of like every time I read that book, there's there's a
different bit I'm at. I'm always like, oh, there's
another level to this go on. Then what's the COVID contract
#3? #3 if I do everything right then
I'll have a smooth problem free life.
Oh my God. I don't hurt people.
My my wife won't get mad. My business won't fail, right?
My friends will always like me. Oh my God, man, I don't even
know where to start with this one.
It's actually me being I'm very good with this one.
That's not one I ascribe to right now.
Might be in the future. I did actually think about it
the other day. I was like, Oh my God, I thought
I was doing everything right here, you know, And it's like,
and I'm still getting this, this issue, but I think this is kind
of the perfectionist tendency of guys, you know, it's like, all
right, if I get if I get the six pack ABS, if I've got the big
job, if I've got all the things right, my life's going to be
happy forever. And then there's this big pit
and like they're missing something and.
Yeah, or like having having that belief, but then when the
inevitable challenge comes, the punch in the gut, the the wife's
pissed off or the sales don't come in that month for the
business or you get fired when then it's like it's fucking the
world's over. If you're if you have that
belief that because you're doing everything right, then the world
should be swimmingly. It's not.
And then and then actually this does link very nicely to one of
the things I heard again is like you're going to fuck up your
kids. He's like, no matter what,
you're going to fuck up your kids.
And actually, this is on that point.
So Brenny Brown famously said if you are a perfect parent, you
fuck up your kids. And here's why they don't get to
learn to deal with chaos. And like, my upbringing was
chaos, like chaos, like all sorts of things happened.
And like, as I do more and more deep work, I learn more and
more, more conversations with my mum, more conversation with my
dad. I, I learned just more and more
about my past. I'm like, Oh my gosh, Oh my
gosh. And I'm always like, wow, there
was so much for me to deal with as a growing boy.
And I as an adult, I'm very, very good at dealing with, with
life. Like I'm very, very good at
that. I'm very good at navigating hard
conversations, difficult situations, emotional things.
I'm good, I'm very solid. And it's because I had imperfect
parents. They were amazing parents.
They were absolutely did the absolute best.
And there was chaos. And actually that's what made me
a really, really, you know, really, really like good at
dealing with chaos. And this is he said this and I
and I heard it differently. Maybe because I where I'm at
with parenting and the girls a bit a bit more articulate now is
that I'm I give my kids so much of a different at bringing to
what I had and it was quite funny hearing it's like you're
going to fuck up your kids. And I was like, Oh no, I was
like, no matter what, but I sat with a buddy at home and he his
biggest wound is that he won't be as great as his dad.
That's his that's his wound. His dad was the perfect dad,
amazing dad, and for him to live up to that is just an
insurmountable. So even then, so his his.
Dad. His dad.
His dad fucked him up by being perfect.
By being a great dad And like that's his wound and it's just
the way he sees it. Like honestly, you know, if like
this guy is, he's a great dad. Everything that he could have
done, he's done. And the wound that his son has
is I'm not going to be as good as my dad.
And like that for me, I was like sitting there listening to it.
I was like, holy shit. Yeah.
And and that when Robert said that on the podcast, it
instantly made me think of that. And it instinct made me think of
my parenting as like, I'm just not going to go for perfect.
I'm just going to go for a fantastic dad.
I just want to be a great dad. And I'm, I'm going to make
mistakes. And like, that was just a yeah,
that really brought that home for me.
Yeah, yeah. I've got something written down
here that towards the end of the podcast, this, this came out and
life has its way of working itself out.
Take risks or don't take risks. It's a work out.
But the difference is whether it works out to a logical scale, a
10X scale or not. And I like that.
I like that wasn't Robert's words, but it was like just he
was alluding to these things that life does have it.
It has its way of working itself out.
But it is entirely up to you whether you take the ballsy
route, the illogical route, the route B at the riskier route, or
whether you don't. Yeah, but he he also said about
nice guys are greater being sorry, greater being average,
but not greater being great like, like and I and I think
that's what the the real thing for me was like.
I don't want to be an average leader.
I want to be exceptional. I've like, it's always been what
I've, I pride myself on. I want to be an exceptional
leader. I've, I really want to be known
for being exceptional. I don't want to be average.
And that's not a, like a, a shame based fear of being
average, like, oh, being average is not on earth.
I'm like, no, I just want to be recognised by myself by other
people as exceptional. And actually, if you've got
those three nice guy traits, those covert contracts going on,
you haven't done your work. You still you're going to be
average because there's so many things that you won't be able to
deal with. Yeah, and, and just as we talked
about earlier on in the pod about guys looking for
something, searching for something and needing to be in a
group, A tribe, like one of the biggest bits of advice that I
can give in joining a group is that sometimes there can be a
fear of, well, all the guys in that group, they all know each
other. They're all brothers already.
And I'm going to come in as an outsider and not know anyone
that is. But I can tell you it's a bunch
of rubbish because all the guys in the group, they all started
by not being in the group and they've joined 1 by 1 by 1 by 1.
I I actually disagree unless it's properly LED.
Yes, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I.
Think, I think I've been to CrossFit gyms and I'm like,
there's a clique here because it's run by.
I'm I'm specifically talking about the awakened man.
Yeah. Oh, like the best, the best, you
know, that is like an instant, you know, you're in and it's
like you're in. But what I'm talking about with
a lot of guys go into groups is that they don't have the
conscious leadership or the leadership at all.
And a part of the leaders role is to get people to easily come
into the group. That's what you know, it's
sovereign energy. It's, it's, it's like the king
is like he's all about bringing relationships together.
And I think that that's when you, when you go into a group
and it's not properly LED, you will experience that.
So I think you need to check in like if you've been going to a
group and you feel like you've been an outsider for a while,
you need to think yourself like, actually, how is this being LED?
It's the leaders role to help you find an easy path into the
group like that. Like how, how many hours did we
put into working out the best way to bring guys into the group
and like on board them the experience it's.
Like still now, still now there's like even recently I
must have spent probably spent 10 hours in the last month
improving that process. Yeah.
And and that's that's so important.
I think, I think that's the the I think that's what you said in
the in the in the podcast, is that when you're looking for a
group, you're ideally looking not just for any group.
You're looking for a group of conscious men.
And I think that's it's really difficult as a guy to understand
what that is until you're in it and really going.
Is this how they all talk? Oh my God, this is like because
it's like AII think that if you were to put a hot seat Thursday
call live onto Facebook and people heard what was going on
in that room, they would be like, what the fuck?
It's just like that's what, but it's true, isn't it?
Like what goes on in those calls?
You're like, Oh my God, did that actually really just happen?
Like is that what just got talked about?
And then, you know, there's like there's times where like we had
guys and have guys is that guys would just come on and say,
listen, I I and they just all of a sudden start crying and like
just talk about how hard things are.
The guys would just like literally be like 1520 guys sat
on the call just waiting for a guy to to clear his shit out.
And sometimes you're going to get a peek saying step it up.
But there's other times where because these guys don't get
super triggered and worried and, you know, insure themselves when
a guy's going through his shit, he's allowed to process it.
And I think that was the, and this is something we talked
about with Robert is that over the last two years, especially
in awake command, the amount of direct strategic coaching that
went on was minimal. I don't know what, what's going
on now. You know, the same time it's
like, but compared to other programmes, you've probably been
an MP. The amount of strategic work is
not, it's not like it's there's, there is, it's there, but it's
not as much as perhaps like a real paint by numbers course.
However, I reckon the ascension of the man is is exponentially
bigger. Yeah, absolutely, because we
work on the South. Yeah, because, and this is
something I've I'm actually where I'm at in my career at the
moment. Like really I was like, do you
need the strategy or the paint by numbers or do you just need
to become a much, much better leader of yourself and the
people around you? And it's.
All about The Who. Yeah, like who you're being.
And there was a big movement in the coaching world about being
and it. And I don't know if people just
jumped on it because of Steve Hardison.
And he was a big, big player in the coaching world.
But what I think is like a big, big shift is that what happens
in a group like that is you become a massively different man
to who you were. Like I think a lot of guys come
into man's work and they're a shadow of themselves.
They are literally, they're living like you've said it many
times. They're living at a level 5 when
they know that they've got a level 10 in there and the that
work is the work to get them to a level 10.
Yeah, yeah, it was. Had a guy come on a couple of
weeks ago, noon to the program, and I pretty forcefully, to be
fucking honest, got him to share something because I knew I knew
I needed to get. He needed it off his chest and I
forced him out of it in front of all the guys.
It was ballsy on my behalf, but I kind of knew that it was going
to help him. And fuck, you can see the guy's
shoulders drop. And he said after he said, after
he said in front of all the guys.
I'm, you know, I'm probably being judged quite a lot now.
And I was like, men, be fucking honest right now.
Everyone put your hand up. Who is judging this man?
No one. Zero.
Yeah, yeah. Dude, that's a story you're
telling yourself. It's a bullshit story you're
telling yourself. Because I'll tell you when you
get into a room like this, people aren't fucking judging
you. They're not, and not the way
that you they think they are. That there's there's compassion
and there's empathy here. Yeah, well, remember when Robert
in the podcast said that he went to a sex addicts?
Yes. It's like I was like, oh, he
just pressed. I was like, well, there's some
really hardcore shit going on there.
And like he said about his stuff.
And then they went, thank you for sharing, Robert.
And I was like, Oh my God, that made me laugh.
I was like, it's quite funny. I was like trying to find a
parking space and I was like laughing.
And this guy looked at me as if like, what are you doing?
I was listening to the podcast in my car and but that's The
thing is like time and time again is that you'll share this
like deep, dark, horrible secret.
You think that's really bad that no one like, and it's the same
with us on the podcast, on this podcast.
It's like when I told you before, I was like, I thought
you're going to give us what actually got told.
And you're like, oh God, that hurts.
Oh my God, could that be a problem?
And it's even me sharing stuff about my relationship with
Poppy. But I when I've shared it, I'm
like, Oh yeah, do you know what? It's helpful.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's in fact that
actually when the guy shared that and another guy on the call
who was also knew was like, hey man, just gone through the same
thing, fucking the same thing. I'm like I said, I was like,
dude, what the fucking you think that's coincidence?
Yeah. It's what's what's interesting
is we believe our problems are special.
Yeah, they're not unique. No.
Some of them can be quite niche, you know, I'm not going to lie,
there's been niche problems like, wow, that's a that's a
real niche problem. But they're all the same.
They're all the same sort of shades.
And that is what is I I like what Robert is doing like Robert
is. So if you, if you haven't
listened to the podcast, if you haven't listened to the podcast,
listen to it again. If you haven't read noble, Mr.
Nice guy. It's a foundational book for a
man listening to this podcast. So if you're a big fan of a
Wakeman, go and listen to that book.
Go and what? Go and read the book.
Book Robert actually reads the book now.
It's pivotal. And it's like the the thing I
think what was really good is that you when you read the book,
you then need a group to do the work.
And I think Pete, you know, I think you're definitely
signposts where the best place for guys who've ever listened to
this podcast and they want to do the the normal Mr. Nice Guy work
on themselves or they want to do the men's work on themselves.
Where would they go after this? They go to the Awaken Man, they
would go to heroicman.com. They go to the Awaken Man
project Instagram page resonates.
Reach out. All right, guys, good insights.
We're going to do some more of these where we give insights on
some of the most popular podcasts.
So TuneIn for the next speak to you soon.