1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,760 The thing I find about Nigel refreshing is that he will have 2 00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:04,760 the robust conversation. With you so he's not your 3 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,360 average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint of milk 4 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:08,160 to use your. Words. 5 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,960 No, no he isn't. And I do find that refreshing 6 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:11,920 do. You think there will be more 7 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,440 defections from the Tories? Too. 8 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,320 Oh yeah, I know, I know. There will be. 9 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,240 No, there will. Be how many rough? 10 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,560 Bigger names than me. Let's talk about why reformers 11 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,200 introduced this policy on immigration, because Nigel 12 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,160 Farage says that he's dealing with what he calls the Boris 13 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,920 wave. I accept that 4.2 million people 14 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,000 was way, way too big a number, right? 15 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,000 So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take that control as. 16 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,400 No, it was because we have controlled of our borders that 17 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,600 we were able. To open the borders and let 18 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:46,440 everybody in. Hello and welcome to the 19 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,880 forecast. Nadine Dorries was once former 20 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,320 Prime Minister Boris Johnson's closest ally. 21 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,000 But now she's defected to Reform UK, the party leading the polls 22 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,040 under Nigel Farage. She insists Farage is the only 23 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,000 one to deliver change, but are his policies workable? 24 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,120 And how does she respond to her new leaders attacks on her 25 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,720 former boss? She joins me now for her first 26 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,800 sit down interview since defecting. 27 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,800 Nadine Doris Keir Starmer said this week that Nigel Farage was 28 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,240 a snake oil merchant who doesn't like Britain. 29 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,920 Are you getting any kind of buyer's remorse for defecting? 30 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,040 Absolutely not. In fact, it was the attacks from 31 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,600 the stage and the platform at the Labour conference, if 32 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:31,200 anything, that would make myself and others more more convinced 33 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,240 about the fact that we've done the right thing and I. 34 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,680 Also joining a party with racist politics. 35 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,400 Oh, it's not racist, Cathy. The the party is not racist 36 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,840 anyway and I find it hugely insulting. 37 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,680 I've been in politics for 20 years in Westminster, 25 in 38 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,320 total. I find it huge insulting that 39 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,360 anybody would describe someone who's an intelligent person 40 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,480 who's been involved in politics as a racist or no. 41 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,280 No, they're not. To be clear, they're 42 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,040 specifically not describing Nigel Farage himself as racist. 43 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:02,760 And the. Politics are not but the but 44 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,960 the. Policy of deporting 10s of 45 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,520 thousands of people who've made their homes here for the simple 46 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,920 fact that they're not British. You can understand why Keir 47 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,200 Starmer might describe that as racist. 48 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,000 It's not racist to want to protect our borders, to want to 49 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,000 deport those people who are illegally here. 50 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,160 But that's not he's not just wanting to deport the people who 51 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,320 are illegally here, he's talking about scrapping indefinite right 52 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,520 to remain and so therefore people who have made their homes 53 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,600 here. I am very sure that as we move 54 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,040 toward the 3 1/2 years, towards the general election, there will 55 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,440 be clarity around the skills that are required that need to 56 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,760 remain in terms of legal migration now, legal migration 57 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,520 we will still need to have moving forward. 58 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,320 That and you need it for the NHS for. 59 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,880 Example, we need to have a former nurse, I would say you 60 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,840 know who trained with a my my my peers when I was nursing were 61 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,720 Filipinos, so you know it will Philippine nurses were as equal 62 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,080 as British. They'll be deported under this 63 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,240 policy because they would not be earning enough. 64 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,840 To say not reform are not going to introduce policies that would 65 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,760 leave our NHS and staffed. He's told you that. 66 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,760 That would leave no, I I think just plain common sense tells me 67 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,560 that. So this policy will be refined. 68 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,160 These policies that will leave care homes without without 69 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:25,960 assistance. But what what we that is? 70 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:27,400 Exactly what the current policy would do. 71 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,840 What we would do would be that those those jobs, those skills 72 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:34,360 would be filled by an individual. 73 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,440 That doesn't mean their entire family can come over with them. 74 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,120 It doesn't mean they will have a right to British pensions. 75 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,520 It doesn't mean they'd have a right to the British welfare 76 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,440 system of of course illegal migration, as in any other 77 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,800 country in the world is a person to fill a skills gap. 78 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,080 And I'm very sure that moving forward when there is more 79 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,920 clarity around reforms parties, that is exactly what reform 80 00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:58,680 we'll be looking at. So. 81 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,960 You're not the threshold might have to come down the salary 82 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,280 threshold because you know, you're not going to get care 83 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,800 workers and and nurses in, you know, in the under the threshold 84 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,160 that's currently being talked about. 85 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,360 You're asking me about policy details. 86 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,040 I do not hold a job within Reform or a title. 87 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,040 Zia Youssef, who is Nigel Farage's right hand man, which 88 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,280 it almost makes me laugh when people level the accusation of 89 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,520 racism. Zia is Nigel Farage's right hand 90 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,720 man. He's now the head of policy. 91 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,440 Zia will be defining those policies. 92 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:32,880 Zia is an incredibly intelligent man. 93 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,600 Is he going to leave our care homes and our hospitals without 94 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,400 staff to run them? No, he is not. 95 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,520 But what he will do is make sure that those people who are here 96 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,040 are I, I believe that those people are here, are here to do 97 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,440 a job that doesn't give them endless entitlements to our 98 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,920 public services, British pensions, our welfare system. 99 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,160 It doesn't give their entire family a right to follow them 100 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,320 and that those people who are here illegally will be removed. 101 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,600 Before we move on to why reform is introducing this policy, you 102 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,240 said that Keir Starmer's remarks were dangerous. 103 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,520 Very dangerous just. Explain why and if you really 104 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,320 feel threatened by those comments that made from the 105 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,160 conference back. Look, we've seen MPs murdered in 106 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:22,200 the past and there was almost an understanding that that rhetoric 107 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:28,400 and the dialogue that MPs use towards each other, one has to 108 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,200 be very careful. And I think what happened 109 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,680 yesterday at the Labour Party conference was an utter 110 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,280 disgrace. It was. 111 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:38,400 But you believe in free speech? You believe free. 112 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,120 Speech there is and Nigel Farage said himself this week, there 113 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,360 are when there are accounts being established, TikTok 114 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,760 accounts and other accounts being opened that are calling 115 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,080 for him to be for the end of his life and calling for him to. 116 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,520 I mean, it's only weeks since there was a, a murder in the US, 117 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,360 the Charlie Kirk murder. One has to be cuddled, inciting 118 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,800 violence, which is what I think Keir Starmer did yesterday, 119 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,560 inciting hatred. That's not free speech, that's 120 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:08,440 dangerous. And that's. 121 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,160 What Lucy Connolly? Was jailed for and. 122 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,360 Reform has opposed that decision. 123 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,560 Always a level to that. There's always a limit to that. 124 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,520 Let's talk about why reformers introduced this policy on 125 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,080 immigration, because Nigel Farage says that he's dealing 126 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:23,880 with what he calls the Boris wave. 127 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:24,960 And I'll just quote what he said. 128 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,280 Millions of people being allowed into Britain, most of whom don't 129 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:30,120 even work and are costing us a fortune. 130 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,200 And he says voters will never forgive your friend Boris 131 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,000 Johnson, the former Prime Minister for that is Nigel 132 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,720 Farage, right? So you know the interesting 133 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,240 thing I found about this, and I've yet to have this discussion 134 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,160 with Nigel. He's been particularly busy. 135 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,120 I've yet to have this discussion with them. 136 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,560 It's how Rishi Sunak is getting off Scott free on this 137 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:48,920 discussion. It was. 138 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,120 It was under Boris Johnson's government. 139 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,640 Well, just let me explain. So during COVID, a lot of people 140 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,880 left the UK. People willingly went back home. 141 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,400 A lot of Eastern Europeans who were filling particular 142 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,440 vacancies and roles in the UK went back. 143 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,480 Kathy, you were reporting, and I was a minister at the time, when 144 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,680 COVID ended, when the hospitality sector was screaming 145 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,560 out because they couldn't open their doors, because they 146 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,760 couldn't function, when nursing homes were screaming out because 147 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,960 the the bulk of Eastern Europeans who were filling those 148 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,760 jobs had left. It was the Migration Advisory 149 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,480 Committee who advised the number of people who were needed in the 150 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,240 UK to fill those vacancies. And that was, and by the way, 151 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,480 the Boris wave word is very much a Dominic Cummings artefact. 152 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,080 So it was so. So the Migration Committee 153 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,280 advised the number of people who need to come over. 154 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,120 Now I know that at the time Boris Johnson was putting in 155 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,360 place legislation that people who come over didn't have the 156 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,160 right, you'll remember this, to bring their entire families over 157 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,200 with them. And I find it quite remarkable 158 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,880 that people talk about the Boris wave. 159 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,600 He was British, Sunak was Prime Minister for two years. 160 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,960 So why is nobody mentioning what Rishi Sunak did? 161 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:01,840 So it's a Boris and Rishi wave to be. 162 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,040 Accurate it was I, Boris and I will disagree on this. 163 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,280 He will. He will say that there was a 164 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,680 need for people to come over and he put in place the legislation 165 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,840 to stop those families coming over. 166 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:15,720 But you think? It was a mistake to allow so 167 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,800 many people in, you think Boris Johnson. 4 million people, way 168 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,680 too many, way too much, and he doesn't. 169 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:21,920 Agree. He doesn't agree with you on 170 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,000 that. So look, I'm not going to 171 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,520 discuss my conversations with Boris Johnson with you, but 4 172 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,400 million people hoping too many people, I think it is, was way, 173 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,159 way too much because you, our NHS, cannot sustain that number. 174 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:36,960 Our NHS resources are being channelled towards those people, 175 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,440 those four extra million people. So are our schools, so are our 176 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,400 public services, so are our pensions. 177 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,120 We simply cannot, as the small island that we are, Kathy, 178 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,120 sustain that level of inward migration and continue to 179 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,560 provide the public services that we need to that people deserve 180 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,960 and require. You accept you didn't raise your 181 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,240 voice around the table and say there's a Boris wave coming and 182 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,920 it's wrong and I oppose. It no, because I was completely 183 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,760 unaware that the number of people I knew the Migration 184 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,880 Advisory Committee had advised that we needed to fill those 185 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,000 skill gaps. I knew that there was a 186 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,840 discussion taking place about filling those skill gaps but 187 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,480 stop preventing people's families from coming over. 188 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,520 I was not made aware of the numbers and nobody around the 189 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,560 cabinet table was made aware of the numbers. 190 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,560 Priti Patel knew the numbers, she knew what was happening. 191 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:27,000 She was the home secretary, she is responsible. 192 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,960 She was responsible for the Home Office at the time, the Prime 193 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,000 Minister overseas, all of our departments. 194 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,720 We are each responsible for our department which are, which is a 195 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:43,360 full time job. I didn't ask how many people do 196 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,240 we have coming. The questions I was asking were, 197 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,960 well, I need more money to get broadband rolled out to every 198 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,120 home in the UK, right, so that we can level up. 199 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,280 I need to to work on the midterm review of the BBC licence fee. 200 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,840 They're the kind of discussions I was having because that was my 201 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,880 department. You accept that Boris Johnson 202 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,200 got it wrong on this? I mean reforms head of policies 203 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,080 you. I accept that 4.2 million people 204 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,200 was way, way too big a number. Right. 205 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,160 So he didn't put a lid on it. He didn't take back control as. 206 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,800 No Brexit. It was because we have 207 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,600 controlled of our borders that we were able. 208 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,240 To open the borders and let everybody in. 209 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,840 No, Kathy, that's quite a twist on what happened. 210 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,760 What Boris Johnson did was, and I agree with the Migration 211 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,240 Advisory Committee that we need and agree with the hospitality 212 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,240 sector and the care home sector and every other sector that was 213 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,640 screaming out for more people to come in. 214 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,720 He put in place the process to prevent those people from being 215 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,560 in their families over. He would also be entitled to our 216 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:44,880 pensions and on our NHS and our schools and our public services. 217 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,840 It was Rishi Sunak that stopped that happening, right? 218 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,880 Zia Youssef, reforms head of policy, who you've extolled as a 219 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,080 very clever man, described Boris Johnson as one of the worst 220 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,200 prime ministers in history. Have you had a chance to set him 221 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,920 right? Look, I'm political knockabout 222 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:06,200 and rhetoric between opposition parties is as old as the Roman 223 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,440 Empire. So of course he's going to say 224 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,440 that and I wish he wouldn't. I actually don't like playing 225 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,960 the man. I'd rather play the ball and I 226 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,840 but you know, I'm not Zia. Zia will do things the way he 227 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,200 wants to. I think. 228 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,320 I sometimes just think that maybe we should just take the 229 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,440 personal out of it. And, you know, that's why I was 230 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:32,000 so dismayed with what I heard Keir Starmer saying yesterday 231 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,240 and what I heard David Lammy and the 11 cabinet, Labour cabinet 232 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,720 ministers. And by the way, so normally 233 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,920 after a conference, we, any party, even those who are 234 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,080 struggling the worst, see a bounce in their poll rating, 235 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,400 even if it's only minimal, we'll see some kind of bounce. 236 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,280 I don't think we're going to see that with Labour. 237 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,960 Well, let's see. It's it's too early to say, 238 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,200 perhaps, but staying on Boris Johnson, are you trying to 239 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,640 persuade him to defect from Conservatives to reform? 240 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,400 No. Gosh, no. 241 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:58,360 Lost cause. No, no. 242 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,160 No, no. No, no, he's a former 243 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,960 Conservative Prime Minister. You're former. 244 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:04,960 Conservative cabinet minister, you've defected. 245 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,040 That's different. He's a former Conservative Prime 246 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,320 Minister. He is not going to defect to 247 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,040 another political party, do you think? 248 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,520 There will be more defections from the Tories to Oh yeah, I 249 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,080 know. I know there will be. 250 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,560 No, there will be. How many roughly bigger names 251 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,080 than me? Roughly how? 252 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,440 Many are we talking I. Well, Nigel doesn't want many. 253 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,040 That's the that's the issue. I know there are probably 254 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,360 political names who are wanting to come to reform who he doesn't 255 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,680 want. So he's turned people. 256 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,640 Away I I. Would imagine he has like but 257 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,000 you know that. There are people, a number of 258 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,520 people, high profile Tories who are ready to jump ship well. 259 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,240 Nigel said this himself and he said himself, he doesn't want 260 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,200 that many, you know, reform isn't going to be just a, a, an, 261 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,600 an for the those on the sinking ship to the life raft for those 262 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,560 to jump onto. That's not what it is. 263 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,120 And it also isn't going to just become a new Conservative Party 264 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,520 because the Conservative Party, and it pains me to say this, the 265 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,280 Conservative Party over the time it's been in government has 266 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,240 failed in many levels. The Labour Party has failed. 267 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,080 I don't think there's been a radical visionary government 268 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,040 since the time of Margaret Thatcher. 269 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,960 I think Boris Johnson would have been that radical visionary 270 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,880 Prime Minister, but he had Putin and COVID to deal with and, and 271 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,720 some very left-leaning typical MPs who wanted to see him 272 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,000 removed because of Brexit. And I think that what we need in 273 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,280 reform is that radical vision about doing things differently 274 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,200 in Westminster and in Whitehall. And we're not going to get that 275 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,320 if all that reform do is bring over a pile of ex ministers you 276 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:40,720 think within. Days we're going to see some 277 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,960 more high profile I I. Haven't Kathy, I have no idea. 278 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,320 I can't. I don't have a crystal ball. 279 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,280 I can't answer that question, but I do. 280 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:51,040 I do believe there will be high profile defections. 281 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,200 I'm very sure that will happen for two reasons. 282 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:00,560 One is there will be people like me who have given their life to 283 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,240 politics and have a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience 284 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,960 that they think they want to offer and will want to do so and 285 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,080 see how irrelevant the Conservative Party is. 286 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,840 There is no hope for the Conservative Party. 287 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,000 It is not going to turn its fortunes around. 288 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,560 It is not even going to be in opposition after the next 289 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,600 general election. And there are some good MPs in 290 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,320 the Conservative Party who will think, well, I've still got a 291 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,320 lot to give and, and I'm sure will go to Reform and I'm, if I 292 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,320 were then I would have those, those conversations with Nigel 293 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,600 Farage. I'm not sure Nigel will take 294 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,320 everybody. I'm not sure he wants many, but 295 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,320 I think there will be some he would consider. 296 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,160 Boris Johnson says he wouldn't defect to reform because of its 297 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,720 extremely dangerous policy on Russia. 298 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,560 I mean, Nigel Farage has claimed that NATO provoked Putin's 299 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,160 aggression. The former party leader in Wales 300 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,520 has admitted taking bribes to make statements in favour of 301 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,200 Russia while a member of the European Parliament. 302 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,760 I mean, are you worried about that? 303 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,480 Did you do your due diligence? I did there are there are 304 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,920 policies that I I'm not going to agree on everything with Nigel 305 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,000 Fraud. I didn't agree on everything 306 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,080 with Boris. We'll talk about a. 307 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,600 Few. A few more of them in a minute, 308 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,880 but most. Agreements were in private and 309 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,880 behind the scenes I but there are things I do agree with Nigel 310 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,680 on. I do agree with him on the 311 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,520 economy and you know the it's interesting that Labour actually 312 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,800 adopted one of his policies yesterday which was lifting the 313 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,080 two child benefit gap. The difference being that Nigel 314 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,400 wants to lift the two child benefit cap, the two working 315 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,160 couples for working families and what Starmer will probably do is 316 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,960 lift it for everybody, which means people on benefits. 317 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,800 He'll actually increase the welfare bill which is owned. 318 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,560 Chief Secretary of Treasury said it's unsustainable in the longer 319 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,400 term. So I agree with him on his 320 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,600 attitude to public says and we had a big discussion about this. 321 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,080 Did you talk? About Russia, though, so we. 322 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,720 Talked about Ukraine. And so his support for Ukraine, 323 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:06,360 his his plans for the economy, law and order and migration were 324 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,320 for me the central themes of what Nigel and I talked about. 325 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,320 But we agreed on he's Johnny come. 326 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,000 Lately on Ukraine, isn't he? I mean, he's taken, he's made, 327 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,760 he's made. Very definite and very clear 328 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,440 statements about Ukraine over a long period of time, yeah, but 329 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:22,880 he. Took money from the Kremlin 330 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,960 doing his appearances on Russia Today, which is this, you know, 331 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,640 state channel that. Kathy And that was? 332 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,400 After Russia invaded relevant. To nothing that was relevant to 333 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,880 nothing. So it was after Russia? 334 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,320 Invaded there were a number of. MPs, I think, who appeared on 335 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,680 Russia Today, but you didn't. I mean, you wouldn't do that, 336 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,480 would you? No, but but Kathy, I don't like 337 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,080 doing media. I do 1-2 months under pressure. 338 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,120 I only do it for you 'cause I think you're a great 339 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,200 broadcaster. But I'm very limited about what? 340 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,720 And so a lot of MPs are very limited about the media, but 341 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,880 sitting. Down with Russia Today, which is 342 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,000 funded by the Kremlin. That was a mistake by your 343 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,920 leader, wasn't it? Are they to say? 344 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,040 That so you're not. Concerned. 345 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,960 I think it's about statements on Russia. 346 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,160 Oh, you're talking. History. 347 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,400 You're talking about history, and I'm just not gonna go down 348 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,240 there. It's not that historic. 349 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,440 Though isn't it February 2022 only? 350 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:14,680 Thing that is important is does Nigel Farage support Zelensky 351 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,960 and Ukraine's right to protect its borders and to have its 352 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,560 territory? But, and he does. 353 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,560 And that's for me. And the question I asked Nigel 354 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,960 was it is absolutely vital to me that you have unstinting support 355 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,200 for Zelensky in Ukraine. You know, and he and he. 356 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,040 And he pledged that to you? Absolutely. 357 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,960 I was Secretary of State when Putin invaded. 358 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,200 I had my conversations with my opposite number in Ukraine when 359 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,320 he was in a bunker and Kiev was under fire and he had stacked 360 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,320 around him Ukraine's most precious artwork, protecting it 361 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,480 in a bunker, in a cave. You know, I was invested in 362 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,800 Ukraine. I actually LED in the very first 363 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,480 days across the world, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, 364 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,720 countries across the globe in, in bringing together an accord 365 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,080 where we decided that Russian athletes would not be able to 366 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,040 take part in the Olympic, the Winter Olympics, where they 367 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,960 would not be able to appear in. Russian artists will not be able 368 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,080 to appear in various countries. We LED that. 369 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,720 We were the very first people to do that. 370 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,080 I was invested in Ukraine. It was important to me that 371 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,960 Nigel Farage is also invested. Yeah. 372 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,320 And while you were? Doing all of that and feel very 373 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,360 passionately about it. You're now leader was putting 374 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,600 out on social media February 2022 that the Russian invasion 375 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,880 of Ukraine was a consequence of EU and NATO expansion. 376 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,480 Well, he said. That in 2022, what is important 377 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,760 to me today, and lots of people change their minds on lots of 378 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,840 issues, particularly in politics, what is important to 379 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:50,080 me today is that Nigel Farage has full support behind Zelensky 380 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,200 and Ukraine and he does. And I'm looking forward, Kathy 381 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,920 not back. I'm looking forward and I will 382 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,280 and I will hold Nigel's feet to the fire on that if I have to. 383 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,720 He will not wave on Ukraine, I'm very sure of that. 384 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,840 We're a few days out from the Conservative Party conference. 385 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,160 You have described the party as dead. 386 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,600 Just unpack that a bit for. Us well, it's irrelevant 387 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,400 nobody's listening, nobody's interested you know it's 388 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,760 nobody's book well, some people have but you know, very few 389 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,760 organisations have even bought stands at their conference you 390 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,040 know when there are stories online about the Conservative 391 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,880 Party, no one's reading them. When, you know, people switch 392 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,920 off now in this broadcast, in this podcast, no one's 393 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,800 interested in the Conservative Party and and he has to go 394 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,280 further down, you know, so we know that politics is cyclical. 395 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,880 And I'm very sure that maybe, I don't know, 15 years time from 396 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,320 now, the Conservative Party may become fit again to be to be a 397 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,360 force in Westminster. It's facing an. 398 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,000 Existential threat, though, if it's dying, it is. 399 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,120 It is and and it probably will, but that doesn't mean there will 400 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,760 be people who believe in conservativism who won't come 401 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:58,440 and reform in the future so effectively. 402 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,360 Reform in the Tories will merge, won't they? 403 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,040 So I've said this all along that, you know, if Nigel was 404 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,240 short of the numbers to form an overall majority, it's going to 405 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,520 be a threat to the lower majority, though, isn't it? 406 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,320 Who can say? You know, again, we don't have 407 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,800 crystal balls, do we? You know, Keir Starmer got a 408 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,800 majority. Despite the fact that it was, 409 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,960 you know, wide and loveless and shallow. 410 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:26,200 He still managed to get one. And yeah, I mean, we seem to be 411 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,720 in the territory. Boris Johnson had an agency. 412 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,520 We seem to be in the territory of large majorities but that 413 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:36,120 there may need to be an accommodation of some form in 414 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:40,000 the future, whether that will look like in certain key seats, 415 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,760 reformist on candidates or there will be some kind of 416 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,960 arrangement. If, if that doesn't happen and 417 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,600 reform are slightly short, I mean reform, we're not going to 418 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,040 get into bed with the Liberal Democrats, but in the Labour. 419 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,880 Would be open to some kind of tie up do you think? 420 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:54,560 Would you? Well, Cammy. 421 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,480 Bejnak even be there right? So you. 422 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,320 Think she She won't necessarily be, I don't think. 423 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,600 So I don't think I'll make this prediction with you. 424 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,520 I don't think that after next may either Camille Bejanak or 425 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,600 Keir Starmer will be leaders of the parties. 426 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,680 And in fact, I I put serious money on that. 427 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,240 They won't be. Keir Starmer will struggle to 428 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,440 last until next May. We know what happened at his 429 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,440 conference. You know his speech well, he 430 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,080 shored. Up his support thanks to Andy 431 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,720 Burnham Kathy he. What the the point? 432 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,000 It was all optics and it was all window dressing. 433 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:31,360 It was all about muting. Andy Burnham keeping the show on 434 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,400 the road for the cameras. When Labour go back to 435 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,800 Westminster in two weeks it will fall apart. 436 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,200 We know that though you and I know from what we know behind 437 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,480 the scenes, the warfare is real. Lucy Powell will become the 438 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,680 deputy leader of the party. It's Bridget Phillipson, won't 439 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,840 come anywhere near Andy Burnham will continue. 440 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,800 It was just the wrong time at the conference, the wrong 441 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,480 objects put back in. His box, sorry. 442 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,960 Now come back to we know. I know Andy Burnham for a very 443 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,280 long time. Andy Burnham is back in his box 444 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,560 for now, probably for the next two weeks. 445 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,880 Andy Burnham hasn't hasn't gone away. 446 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,120 Kebby Bade. Not not least because. 447 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:08,560 Lucy Powell is Andy Burnham's right. 448 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,760 You know, woman, he's got his. He's got his person in 449 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Westminster, Kelly Badenoch. Is poised to withdraw from the 450 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,840 European Convention on human rights and the refugee 451 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,160 convention does that not give you pause that you know she's 452 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,640 now coming up with the policies that you wanted to see she. 453 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,760 Can't, because she may. That may be a policy she'll 454 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,400 announce again. Window dressing. 455 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,080 And This is why I am So, you know, aren't so many of us so 456 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,840 heartily sick of politicians and stand and make claims but don't 457 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,600 do anything about it? Well, I mean she. 458 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,000 Can't. Now she's in opposition, and she 459 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,840 won't be. Able to, and she'll never be 460 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,720 able to because their MPs will never back her and she'd never 461 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,640 be able to get that through. And that's because 2/3 of the 462 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,320 MPs in the Conservative Party are to the left of the 463 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,480 Conservative Party. They will never support her in 464 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,760 leaving the ECHR or the convention. 465 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,520 It just won't happen. You've been. 466 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,280 Quite open about the fact that you don't agree with everything 467 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,840 your new leader sets out, but there are a couple of areas that 468 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,040 seems. No, I, I said we're not going to 469 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,320 agree on everything. So I can't think of anything. 470 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,920 He's set out at the moment and they're sure you're going to 471 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,080 remind me. Well, I'm gonna have an. 472 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,560 Idea about the online safety bill, which is yes, you 473 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,240 introduced, you know, you were very proud of it we have had. 474 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,840 Discussions about that, Nigel? Farage says it's dystopian. 475 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,040 He's promised to repeal it. I mean, you can try and talk him 476 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,400 around on that, yeah. Absolutely. 477 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,520 And I've already begun. So what I would like to see is 478 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,600 the word children and young people inserted into every 479 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,200 clause in the Online Safety Bill. 480 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,960 The problem, the thing that happened with the Online Safety 481 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,720 Bill, Kathy. And remember I, I took it out 482 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,680 the weeds where it was nothing and put it before Westminster in 483 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,120 a year. The problem was that every MP 484 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,320 wanted their say on that bill. It was treated like a Christmas 485 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,800 tree and every MP wanted to hang a bauble on it. 486 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,120 And it became just this bizarre bill which is really unworkable 487 00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,400 and which the police don't have any ability to use except when 488 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,400 they want to and what they want to use. 489 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,520 And it's convenient. And I think one I would try and 490 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,400 persuade Nigel Farage and he said these words himself and I 491 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,400 was interested to hear him say and he said, I think he said, 492 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,440 you know, I'll say this, actually there are limits to 493 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,160 free speech. That was quite important because 494 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,440 he felt those limits to free speech when people were setting 495 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,720 up online social media accounts calling for his death. 496 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,000 So has. Nigel Farage committed to you 497 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,440 that instead of repealing that bill, he hasn't committed. 498 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,680 Anything but we do have we do I have spoken to him about this. 499 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,160 He's. Probably to listen I have. 500 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,960 He does listen. This is the thing I have been, 501 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:45,720 I'm absolutely find refreshing and encouraging is that Nigel 502 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,880 will really engage in the conversation. 503 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,160 Whereas, you know, in the past, you know, I had in the past, 504 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,800 I've had prime ministers who will speak to you through their 505 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,760 spags and their aids when it's an uncomfortable subject that 506 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,120 they don't want to discuss. And the thing I find about Nigel 507 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,880 refreshing is that he will have the conversation, robust 508 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,080 conversation with you. So he's not. 509 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,600 Your average posh boy who doesn't know the cost of a pint 510 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,200 of milk? To use your words, no. 511 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,560 He isn't, and I do find that refreshing. 512 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,880 I mean, he went. To Dulwich College. 513 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,000 He's quite he. Did he? 514 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,320 Did yeah, but you know, I think was I might even have said this 515 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,480 to you. I've said this before in an 516 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,360 interview. I'm sure is there is posh and 517 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,200 posh, there are posh people who can talk to anybody. 518 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,120 They still relate to people. They're normal. 519 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,160 And there are posh people who just don't. 520 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,400 And Nigel Farage is somebody who not only does he have his finger 521 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,560 on the pulse, but he's, he can relate to anyone. 522 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,680 And, and I think you see that how people have responded to him 523 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,880 across the board. So he's, he's, he's up for 524 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,760 discussion. He's always up for debate. 525 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,520 And you know, I, I have to say that in my first days of joining 526 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,960 for him, I've challenged him and I thought, what am I doing? 527 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:58,720 And but he's been like, like up for it, robust and up for it. 528 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,920 So it's a conversation. It's a conversation I probably 529 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,040 won't win. But what I would say is that 530 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,080 when I ask people, don't you want to protect children, 531 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,600 particularly young girls and young women where we've seen the 532 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,080 the number of those suffering from eating disorders rise 533 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,280 exponentially, the number of young people who took their own 534 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,400 life don't. We were in the 16 to 24 age 535 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,680 grant, but I didn't want to do something about that because I 536 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,480 was the health minister who got the coroner's prevention of 537 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,760 future death reports. I know why these young people 538 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,080 are taking their own lives and you said all. 539 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,880 This tonight when you. Talk to people about that. 540 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,840 They find it. It's difficult to come back at 541 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,320 you with an answer, so I will continue always. 542 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:41,960 You've said that. To Nigel Farage, have you? 543 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,280 Yeah, and one. Of the, one of the purposes of 544 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,480 me being in reform actually, is to, to have those discussions. 545 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,360 And I will talk about children and young people and I will do 546 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,920 it always. And I may not get my own way, 547 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,600 but at least I'll have my voice heard. 548 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,600 And that's important because you don't always get your voice 549 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,040 heard. A couple of other. 550 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,040 Policy areas that you may or may not agree or disagree on with 551 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,520 your new leader. You tried to privatise Channel 552 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,960 4, I did When? You're in government. 553 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,400 Do you expect a reform government to press ahead with 554 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:08,440 that? Oh well, that's one. 555 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,120 Conversation we haven't had. I also wanted to change the way 556 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,080 the BBC is funded from the licence fee. 557 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,040 I'm not sure if you're aware of this but, and I don't know what 558 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,560 the figure is today. I know the figure was 78% of 559 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,840 everybody convicted for non payment of BB licence fee is a 560 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,760 woman and it's because women carry the many cases, women 561 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,640 carry the responsibility for the home and for the family and for 562 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,800 the bills. And I wanted to change the way 563 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,080 the BBC was funded. Now, I haven't had either of 564 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,640 those conversations with Nigel Farage and and I don't get the 565 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,760 impression that's that's top of his agenda. 566 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:52,560 But I will also, along with protecting children and young 567 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,920 people, have the conversations with him about the BBC and he 568 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,160 knows what he's getting with me. He knew what I he, he, he didn't 569 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,600 take me into reform, not knowing they're the things, the causes 570 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,160 that I've championed. You're. 571 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,480 A former nurse, have you taken issue with him the fact that he 572 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,640 wasn't able to condemn Donald Trump's remarks linking 573 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,800 paracetamol to autism pregnant mums? 574 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,520 So I looked, so I hadn't spoken to him about that and I looked 575 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:21,680 at what he said and what he said was that that we would be led by 576 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,200 the science in the UK and that different countries have hit, I 577 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,040 think. Well, actually, no. 578 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,160 He he said he did. Lean into it with something 579 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,200 else. He he actually. 580 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,400 Said he didn't. He didn't necessarily see that 581 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,560 he would that science was fluid and that he didn't necessarily 582 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,880 believe the science experts. He he didn't want to trust the 583 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,600 science expert. So here's the thing. 584 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,280 About being a Prime Minister is you can't take decisions about 585 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,520 health policy, your chief scientific officer and your 586 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,080 chief. I mean, you can as long as you 587 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,960 are prepared to take a civil lawsuit. 588 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,080 And you know, I mean, that's this is the one thing that 589 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,640 amazes me about COVID, when people talk about COVID 590 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,920 lockdowns and some of the policies we introduced in COVID. 591 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,760 If Boris Johnson had ignored the advice of the Chief scientific 592 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,440 Officer, the Chief Medical Officer, SAGE and other bodies 593 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,160 that were identified as those who were informing on that 594 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,000 particular policy, he would probably be in prison now as a 595 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,040 result of a civil lawsuit or certainly in that process. 596 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,240 Now, no Prime Minister is ever going to be able to say to 597 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,520 override the chief scientific officer and the chief medical 598 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,840 officer when it comes to health policy, unless of course. 599 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,200 Is extremely. Wealthy and settled. 600 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,920 Well, that's, you know, again he would change. 601 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,080 As Prime Minister, if he was Prime Minister, he wouldn't have 602 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,720 any. Option not to as a health. 603 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,200 Minister during the pandemic, as you've set out, are you content 604 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,640 for Nigel Farage to be advised by Asim Malhotra, who claimed at 605 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,440 the Reform Party conference that COVID vaccines were a 606 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,160 significant factor in the royal family's cancer diagnosis? 607 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,240 That was. Just insane. 608 00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:00,160 That was literally insane and I'm not sure if that person or 609 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,600 will ever be invited to reform conference again. 610 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,360 I'd be very surprised if he was. Or will you make those? 611 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,160 Representations to Nigel Far when I speak. 612 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,960 To again, that's we spoke about so there is so much discussed. 613 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,160 That's not something I've spoken to him about, but but you would. 614 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,760 You would intend to, no. That's pretty. 615 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,280 Pretty reform is I think it was the first major conference it's 616 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,960 ever had. It's learning as it goes. 617 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,840 So it was grossly. Irresponsible wasn't it, to 618 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,360 allow someone like that to be platform? 619 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,240 Well, I don't believe anybody knew that he was going to say 620 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,280 that. Well, he had. 621 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:31,680 Reform. I mean he, he. 622 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,240 Nobody knew he was going to say that, but he was. 623 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,000 He was opposed. To the COVID vaccines, some 624 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,400 incendiary remarks about those he. 625 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,960 Used the reform platform in order to garner both attention 626 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,280 and immediate interest in his own platform. 627 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,280 Great. And to be clear, what he said 628 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,560 wasn't true. And what Donald Trump has said 629 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,760 about the link between paracetamol and autism, also 630 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,640 untrue, unproven. You just. 631 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,920 Have to the only thing you can do as a minister and when Nigel 632 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,720 Farage is Prime Minister, which he will be very soon, when Nigel 633 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,000 Farage is Prime Minister, when it comes to health policy on 634 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,160 issues such as paracetamol and autism or anything else, he will 635 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,400 have to be guided and take the advice of the chief medical 636 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,080 officer and the chief scientific officer. 637 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,560 Unless of course, he wants to go outside that and leave himself 638 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,960 vulnerable for civil lawsuits, obviously. 639 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,280 It's up to the British people whether he becomes Prime 640 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,720 Minister, but just finally, will he be standing as a Reform MP at 641 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,480 the next election? Have you been offered a peerage 642 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,800 as the price of you defecting? I haven't had those 643 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,120 conversations with Nigel Farage. Interestingly. 644 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,480 If I was a man I probably would have nailed him on a cabinet 645 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,320 position and on a safe seat and on various other things. 646 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,200 But you didn't extract. Anything out of that that just. 647 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,640 Didn't even cross my mind and the period. 648 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,280 Hasn't been mentioned for me. I just literally we have not had 649 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,320 those discussions. For me, the for me, the 650 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:04,120 important thing was I'm, I'm still involved in politics a 651 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,120 lot. And for me, the important thing 652 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,520 was to remove myself from the Conservative Party. 653 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:16,520 It's toxic and I've been there since I left in 2022. 654 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,600 It's a toxic, sinking organization. 655 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,280 I wanted to remove myself from it. 656 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,360 And initially I was just going to join Reform. 657 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,040 And it was a third party who said, no, don't just, you do not 658 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,520 just join Reform. You have to defector reform. 659 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,920 Interesting. I have no way to defect from 660 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,800 because I wasn't in a position. But who said that? 661 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,960 The third party say. That a fellow. 662 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,040 A fellow Conservative. I'm not going to say that. 663 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,720 Not Boris Johnson. So. 664 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,440 What? Definitely not Boris Johnson. 665 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:46,960 He would have. Persuaded you to stay. 666 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,440 Just a final question. Nigel Farage had to eat, I 667 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,440 believe. Camel udder, you ostrich anus on 668 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,440 on a celebrity. Is that well? 669 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:56,760 Actually, long ago. It's 2012. 670 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,520 You've gone. Eating ostrich anus Did I eat an 671 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,400 ostrich? In this did I I believe. 672 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,680 You did. I just wondered whether you 673 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,080 compared notes with him on disgusting things you had to 674 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:05,960 eat. No. 675 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,200 No, I mean, honestly, it's somewhere in my distant memory 676 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,920 is a long time ago. Nadine Dorris. 677 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,640 Thank you very much. Thank you, Kathy. 678 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,880 That's it. For the forecast, thank you very 679 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,200 much for watching. Goodbye.