1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,600 Endorsing a president who has engaged in so many acts against 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,440 international law strikes me as being the kind of endorsement 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,000 that we shouldn't be issuing at this time. 4 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:11,200 I don't think it should be seen as an endorsement. 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,320 I think when you have state visits there for state reasons. 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,120 It's actually in the sort of the ghost of the banquet. 7 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:21,800 Andrew was and still is a huge stain on King Charles. 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,880 Monarchy, unfortunately, is probably going to be one of the 9 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,720 things that King Charles is remembered for. 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,320 There was a attack. How worried would you be about 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:39,040 security? Hello and welcome to the 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,440 forecast. The king is in Washington for 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,440 controversial state visit in the immediate aftermath of an 14 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,480 assassination attempt on the president. 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,640 But our rogue gunman and LAX security? 16 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,800 Actually the least of Charles's concerns. 17 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,560 Some, like broadcasting royalty David Dimbleby, said the King 18 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,080 shouldn't go. There's the erratic behaviour of 19 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,400 Donald Trump, his scathing attacks on Keir Starmer, his 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,519 insult to British forces in Afghanistan and his threats to 21 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:06,840 the sovereignty of the Falklands, not to mention 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,360 Canada. There's his ambivalence towards 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,160 Ukraine and his humiliation of its president. 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,920 And of course, the war in Iran and its impact on Britain's 25 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,520 economy. All of that before mentioning 26 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,120 Epstein, Andrew and his barbs at Harry and Meghan. 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,280 But the British monarchy is one of the few things Trump always 28 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,760 seems genuinely thrilled by. So can the soft power of the 29 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,760 King get the British American relationship back on course and 30 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,640 change anything about Trump's behaviour? 31 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,200 Or is it just pageantry with no relevance to power and 32 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,400 diplomacy? To discuss all this, I'm joined 33 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,560 by Julie Montague, an American who married into the British 34 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,320 aristocracy and is now Countess of Sandwich. 35 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,120 Al Pinkerton is the Liberal Democrats Europe spokesperson 36 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,760 and a professor of geopolitics. And Sir David Manning was the 37 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,240 British ambassador to the US under Tony Blair and then an 38 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,840 adviser to Princess William and Harry. 39 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,200 So, David, let's begin first of all with, you know, what do you 40 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,360 think is the best they can hope for out of this royal trip? 41 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,520 King's going at a very difficult time, probably the most 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,600 difficult time in the bilateral relationship that any of us can 43 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,960 remember. But as you said in your 44 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,400 introduction, he does seem to be somebody who is respected by 45 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,040 Trump and admired by him. I think it's important not to 46 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,560 see the visitors political in its essence, though of course, 47 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,600 it can't be detached from its political context. 48 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,400 But what I think the king may be able to do is to provide 49 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,720 something of a shock absorber in at a time when things are very 50 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,600 difficult and a stabilizer to the relationship. 51 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,640 And I think remind Trump and remind the American people more 52 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:57,320 widely of the relationship that's very deep, very long 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,240 lasting on their 250th anniversary of independence. 54 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:06,360 So I do think it's important to distinguish between the idea 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,320 that he's going to be able to negotiate on that long list of 56 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,320 very difficult issues that you described and to provide what a 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,080 state visit provides, which is a a celebration and a reflection 58 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,440 on a relationship between two countries. 59 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,080 Al Pinkerton. I mean, what is it you're really 60 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,960 worried about? Is it that the king would be 61 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,480 humiliated or that you want to give a slap in the face to 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,800 Donald Trump? It's certainly not the latter. 63 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,760 I mean, I think there's a whole list of things that I could 64 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,520 recount, but I'll just give you my my top three. 65 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,840 First of all, diplomacy is a stage and meetings like this are 66 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,880 absolutely part of a kind of very carefully choreographed 67 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,560 piece of stagecraft. But as you said in your 68 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,960 introduction, this is an incredibly erratic president who 69 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,800 I who does not stick to the script and I think is going to 70 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,040 improvise his way through that encounter. 71 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,320 That's certainly the risk that he's that's what he's done with 72 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,120 other world leaders when they have attended the White House. 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,440 And I think that will put the King in a really invidious 74 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,480 position if he does go off script and does challenge the 75 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,200 King to to respond, which of course he cannot do. 76 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,240 I think the second point is the geopolitical context, whether 77 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,520 that be the threats that he's made against Canada, the 78 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,080 diminution of the Canadian Prime Minister referring to Mark 79 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,680 Carney as a governor, Carney claiming Canada as the 51st 80 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,240 state, that that's the King's realm that we're talking about 81 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,440 here. Not not least to say what he's 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,360 done in Greenland, in Iran, and then also the latest offence 83 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,480 over over the Falkland Islands. And then I think the final 84 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,320 thing, it's the optics. A royal visit is also a kind of 85 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,200 endorsement. And I think to be endorsing a 86 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,600 president who has engaged in so many acts against international 87 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,680 law, whilst we also talk about the vitality of international 88 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,640 law for our global system, strikes me as being the kind of 89 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,640 endorsement that we shouldn't be issuing at this time. 90 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,800 So there's a lot to pick up on there, and we will. 91 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,240 But Julie, I mean, how much of America do you think shares 92 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,320 Donald Trump's sort of awe? I don't think a large 93 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:02,800 proportion, to be perfectly honest. 94 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,840 In fact, I saw something on social media where they were 95 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:08,120 interviewing Americans in Washington, DC, and some of them 96 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,480 had no idea who the king was. So this visit is very different 97 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,440 from, let's say, when Queen Elizabeth the Second visited 98 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,200 there because she was this, you know, incredible woman long, you 99 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:20,680 know, the longest reigning monarch. 100 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,600 The king has only been, you know, the king for a few years. 101 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:31,160 So again, I'm not sure how much pageantry is going to be shown 102 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,760 apart from what we see in Washington, DC across other 103 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,360 Americans or states. It's, it's been very, I, I think 104 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,160 subtle this visit because Trump does shine the light on himself 105 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,160 all of the time. And yes, we talk about this 106 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,960 special relationship between the US and the UK. 107 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,320 And is it in decline at such, is it weakening? 108 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,240 But the special relationship that I think Trump views the UK 109 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,920 is, is the special relationship between himself and the royal 110 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,400 family. And for that, he definitely 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,240 doesn't want to put any stain on that. 112 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,240 So he will be on his best behaviour. 113 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,680 The true, the truth Social posts that will be coming out at 2 AM, 114 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,600 3:00 AM in the morning will be glowing posts. 115 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,080 I'm certain of that. So you, you, you don't share the 116 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,920 worries that he'll he'll go off script and say something 117 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,200 embarrassing. Absolutely not. 118 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,200 He will be on the best behavior. So, David, I mean, what about Al 119 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,120 Pinkerton's point about a royal visit being effectively an 120 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:34,640 endorsement? Is that true? 121 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,600 I mean, if you think about all the people the Queen used to 122 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,240 have to shake hands with, are they all endorsements? 123 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,760 Or is it is it just the job of a royal to do things like the 124 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,360 250th anniversary of the states of the United States? 125 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,920 I understand what I was saying. It's not actually a view I 126 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,680 share. I don't think it should be seen 127 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,480 as an endorsement. I think when you have state 128 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,440 visits there for state reasons, and I also think it goes much 129 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,480 wider than Trump. I think it's important to 130 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,760 remember that the King has been asked to go on the 250th 131 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:16,320 anniversary to celebrate relations between all aspects of 132 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,560 the two countries and their links together. 133 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,080 Now, I where I might agree with him is I'm not sure it was a 134 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,280 good idea to send the king so swiftly after Trump came to 135 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,480 Britain last year. It's it's odd to have a return 136 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,000 visit so quickly. On the other hand, this is the 137 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,880 250th anniversary of a relationship that goes back a 138 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,960 very long way. So I don't think we should see 139 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,040 it as endorsement for Trump. And it's perfectly clear that's 140 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,400 not where the British government is. 141 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,640 We've got some very profound differences with the Trump 142 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,520 administration at a time when it clearly doesn't share the same 143 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,800 view of the world as we do, and it's not underpinned by the same 144 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,960 values, unfortunately. But I think that the King's 145 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,640 visit needs to be seen in a broader context than that, as a 146 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,760 celebration of the two countries over a long period and the many 147 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:14,200 aspects of their relations. And as I said earlier, I think 148 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,320 there's also a possibility that he can help improve the climate 149 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,360 so that the debates that we're having and the very deep 150 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,880 differences that have now emerged can be dealt with in a 151 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,160 little less, a little less stridently than has been the 152 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,000 case in the last few days. I mean, have you seen the king 153 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,039 close up in a diplomatic setting? 154 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:39,440 I was, I was talking to one of one of the people closely 155 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,679 involved with this trip recently. 156 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,800 He was telling me about when Trump came over to to London and 157 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,080 spent time with the king. And the king and Trump sort of 158 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,160 get this time together where they are alone and, you know, 159 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,280 talking for quite some time. And he was saying, you know, 160 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,480 nobody knew what was going on. And they came out of it. 161 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:01,960 And it's had apparently gone incredibly well. 162 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,680 And the king had talked about things that Trump wouldn't have 163 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:10,400 agreed with, you know, but he does it in this rather 164 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,200 impressive way. I mean, is this just part of 165 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,240 sort of the mythology of around around the royal family or do 166 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,840 you think it's true? I don't think it is mythology 167 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,400 actually. I, the King, came twice to 168 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,200 Washington when I was ambassador there. 169 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,200 In those days, of course, he was the Prince of Wales and on one 170 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,120 occasion he came for a week or so. 171 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,080 In another occasion, it was much briefer. 172 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,040 And that's when I've seen him in action. 173 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:37,720 And he's in a very effective diplomat. 174 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,680 He's very good at reaching out to people. 175 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,040 And I think, you know, it's important to remember that 176 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,840 diplomacy is talking to people you often don't agree with. 177 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,920 And I think he's able to connect. 178 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,360 I think he probably is able to understand where the other 179 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,760 person's coming from. And I'm quite sure he's able to 180 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,880 put across his own views that may not at all be the same views 181 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,440 as Trump, but without being provocative about it. 182 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:09,240 So I don't think 1 should see it as as an as an endorsement of 183 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,080 Trump's views because he's talking to him. 184 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,560 On the other hand, I think he may be able to remind Trump of 185 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,160 all sorts of things that have been very important in the 186 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,560 relationship, like the contribution to British armed 187 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:26,200 forces, like our relationship over, you know, successive 188 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,680 international crises and do this very effectively. 189 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,360 I think it's important that he's able to do this privately. 190 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,920 And I think, of course, we don't want the session in the in the 191 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,360 chair, in the Oval Office where Trump is playing to the cameras. 192 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,280 You can't be sure that this is going to go completely to 193 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,680 script. You can't be sure that the 194 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:52,720 president won't say something disobliging or something. 195 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,440 But he's erratic. But I I agree with what was said 196 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,520 earlier. I don't think Trump wants this 197 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,000 visit to fail. I think quite the reverse. 198 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,360 And I think he will do his best to make sure that it it works 199 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,280 out well. Julie, I mean, you say a lot of 200 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,640 Americans don't really know who he is. 201 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,440 Do you think this king can engage with Americans rather 202 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,120 than, you know, beyond Trump? Well, we have to remember that 203 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,320 the celebration of the 250th anniversary of the signing of 204 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,880 the Declaration of Independence was, of course, because America 205 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,680 did not want a monarchy. And King Charles is coming over 206 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:30,080 there to sort of celebrate this, this momentous moment and the 207 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,400 special relationship between two countries. 208 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,360 So I suspect as Americans, you're more prone to engage in a 209 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,840 celebration around no kings because we've seen all of those 210 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,840 protests recently and continuing. 211 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,440 Does that mean Americans are sort of hostile to the idea of 212 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,000 kings? Yes, or or. 213 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,440 Just in their or just in their own country, I. 214 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,520 Think in their, I think in that, yes, it's a really good 215 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,240 question. I think in their own country, 216 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,560 absolutely. But of course there is this 217 00:11:57,560 --> 00:12:01,000 connection with the United Kingdom and tourism. 218 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,320 Americans flock over here because of the, you know, 219 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,640 illustrious past, the 1000 years of history that the UK has, that 220 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,440 Britain has of, you know, of, of kings and Queens. 221 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,520 But going back to Sir David's points about point about this 222 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,040 conversation between a private conversation between King 223 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,920 Charles and Trump, I do think that King Charles will be also 224 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,240 very careful about what he says behind closed doors because we 225 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,000 know that in the past, especially with Megan and Harry, 226 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,280 you know, things to have turned out in a book. 227 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,080 They've been on an interview. They things that Charles has 228 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,160 said in the past has reached the media. 229 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,800 It can be quoted. He will be conscious of that. 230 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,680 I mean, I suppose the other point that people make is that 231 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:48,760 for all the success of Trump's visit to Britain, within months 232 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,520 he was threatening Greenland, attacking Starmer, attacking 233 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,800 NATO. You know what's what's the good 234 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,880 of a good relationship if that's what happens afterwards? 235 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,160 We often talk about the special relationship. 236 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,520 I don't think we're in a particularly special 237 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,480 relationship at all. I think we're in a very complex 238 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,840 situation Ship, to use the modern parlance right now. 239 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,640 I mean, David says that we don't want the United Kingdom, the 240 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,000 Prime Minister, the government don't want this to be seen as an 241 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,400 endorsement of Trump. But the truth is that's not 242 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,840 their choice. It's not their choice about how 243 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,520 this gets interpreted because the stage is in the United 244 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,640 States. It'll be up to Donald Trump and 245 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,840 the US media how this is determined. 246 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,200 And the fact that the king is going to the United States right 247 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,480 now with Donald Trump acting as he is on the global stage right 248 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,520 now vis A vis Canada, Venezuela, Greenland, the Falklands, Iran. 249 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,840 I think Donald Trump will take this opportunity to see this as 250 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,160 an endorsement, A normalization that look, diplomatic relations 251 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,760 continue despite everything I'm doing or maybe even because of 252 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,720 what I'm doing. That's, that's the downs upside 253 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,800 risk. This is a trip to my mind that 254 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,240 only has potential risks, perils and pitfalls. 255 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,600 And I genuinely can't see the upside opportunity because even 256 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,640 if this trip goes blindingly well, even if they, they connect 257 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,520 over a cup of tea and stories about his, his mother's 258 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,400 homeland, that will only last for 5 minutes. 259 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,080 Because next week he'll be attacking the United Kingdom 260 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,720 again, he'll be attacking Sadiq Khan. 261 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,520 He'll be saying that London is a city that has fallen. 262 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,200 And, and so he's so capricious and so quick to change his mind 263 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,000 that I think this is just filled with landmines. 264 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,000 But actually there's no long term benefit anyway. 265 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,200 I mean, there was. There was a really interesting 266 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,200 story from Rachel Sylvester and the Observer this this weekend 267 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,840 about how furious the king was when Trump denigrated the role 268 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,960 of British forces in Afghanistan. 269 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,160 And, and her story was that he'd actually wanted to get on the 270 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,120 phone and, and yell at Trump or do whatever the, the royal 271 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,840 equivalent of yelling is. And, and you know, and he, he 272 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,800 didn't in the end. But do you do you think he 273 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,800 should say something about the Falklands, for example, or 274 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,080 British forces or Canada while he's there? 275 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,520 I don't think he can because I, I think in unless he is sent 276 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,200 with explicit instructions to do that by the British government 277 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,240 and I don't believe that he will be, he is effectively silenced 278 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,440 in those moments. And that's rather different to 279 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,400 many other world leaders who sit with him in the Oval Office, who 280 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,360 could at least say something in retort. 281 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,320 He will be effectively silenced from, from doing that. 282 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,720 And of course, remember, Donald Trump a few weeks ago claimed 283 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,120 that the queen would have supported his actions in, in 284 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,440 Iran. That's another extraordinary 285 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,480 diplomatic faux pas for him to have undertaken. 286 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,280 So I, I, that's why I say this is filled with downside risk and 287 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,480 actually with very limited diplomatic opportunities. 288 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,200 So, so David, I mean, can he bring these things up and and 289 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:32,800 should he? Well, I think the first thing to 290 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,680 say is I don't I'm not in profoundly disagreeing with 291 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,400 without it is high risk visit and that's why we're having this 292 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,960 conversation. And once the announcement had 293 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,360 been made, it seems to me the visit was locked in barring the 294 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,040 most extraordinary circumstances. 295 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,200 Because if you hope, as I do, that it will provide anyway some 296 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,960 sort of shock absorber capacity and breathing space, to cancel 297 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,200 it when it's already been announced is simply to 298 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,480 exacerbate the problem you've already got. 299 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,120 Whereas you can hope that the king will have some effect in 300 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,280 stabilizing things. But it's perfectly true that 301 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,320 there are all sorts of risks here. 302 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,160 I'm not aware that that Trump leaked all sorts of things about 303 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,200 his conversations with the king when he came to London. 304 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,120 Perhaps he did and I'm not aware of it. 305 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,520 And I'm sure that the king was will certainly have been 306 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,360 extremely put out by what Trump said about the British armed 307 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,320 forces. I think there may be 308 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,720 opportunities to talk about this in general ways in the 309 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,320 bilateral, and there's certainly an opportunity to do it during 310 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,480 the state dinner when the king will be making a speech. 311 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,200 I don't I think it will be won't be full frontal. 312 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,840 It'll probably be fairly general and oblique. 313 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,960 But I don't think 1 should assume that that that 314 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,120 opportunity will necessarily be passed up to remind Trump of 315 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,000 what the British armed forces have been like to point out that 316 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,560 actually London is not a hellhole of crime. 317 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,600 And as some of the Trump administration seem to suggest 318 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,960 that actually Britain is a rather less violent place than 319 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,560 America, which we've just been reminded of this this very 320 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,800 weekend at the correspondents dinner. 321 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,920 I think there are. There are certainly messages you 322 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,079 can send without being, as it were, absolutely explicit. 323 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,280 You have also recently spoken about how you think the 324 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:30,120 relationship is fundamentally changed since Trump has come 325 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,760 come to power. I mean, do you think that is a, 326 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,080 a long lasting change? You know, is there a change that 327 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,200 goes beyond Trump or is it just this administration? 328 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,880 I don't think we know the answer to that, Krishna, but I think it 329 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,240 would be foolish to assume that things are going to go back to 330 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,920 the status quo ante. I think once you have had one 331 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,320 Trump administration and we all thought, well, we've learned 332 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,320 that lesson, now we have a second one. 333 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,920 And so I think you have to assume that something profound 334 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,680 has been changing in America. Now, it doesn't mean that if we 335 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,440 got a different administration, Democratic administration in in 336 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,560 three years time that there wouldn't be some very quick and 337 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,960 serious repair work undertaken. But nobody in future is going to 338 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,800 assume, as we have done until the first Trump administration, 339 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,840 that this relationship is bound to endure, that it is based 340 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,040 fundamentally on a shared view of how the world works and how 341 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,640 we would like it to work and on common assumptions. 342 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,560 Because that's clearly not where Trump is. 343 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,560 Trump's an America firster. He's transactional. 344 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,080 He isn't interested in free trade, human rights, all the 345 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,400 sort of things that have underpinned our relationship 346 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,800 with the United States. And I think where I absolutely 347 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,320 would agree, at least I imagine without, we've never had this 348 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,880 conversation, is that as a result of that whatever you hope 349 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,320 for in two or three years time, the only sensible thing for 350 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,400 Britain to do now is to salvage what it can with the 351 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,880 relationship with the United States and maintain it because 352 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,480 it remains crucially important to us in investment security and 353 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,920 so on. But at the same time, to re 354 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,880 insure elsewhere to build relationships that are much 355 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,240 closer with Europe, it's quite clear that that's what we need 356 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,360 to be doing urgently. We have the the, the, the twin 357 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:25,040 problems, the different problems, but Putin on one side 358 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,360 and Trump on the other and look more widely around the world to 359 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,880 Australia, Japan and so on. So I certainly don't think you 360 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,240 can expect the relationship to go back to where it was. 361 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,520 And I think it would be very foolish of us just to cross our 362 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,280 fingers and hope that somehow or other, everything's going to 363 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,280 turn out all right in 2029. Judy what? 364 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,200 What do you make of that? Well, it's as Sir David said, 365 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,760 it's almost going 2 steps back and it's going to be one step 366 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,400 forward with the next administration to. 367 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,200 And so that is, you know, he has dug a huge hole in this 368 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,520 relationship and it is definitely weakened. 369 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,040 It's not stable. And I, I know that many 370 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,880 Americans feel that as well. Of course you've got the MAGA 371 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,920 supporters. So I put them to one side. 372 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,840 But I do feel that the tide is turning in America with this on. 373 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,120 Predictability that he, you know, posts on his true socials, 374 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:24,160 what he carelessly says about world leaders and it's starting 375 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,720 to take effect and root in America, especially among the 376 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,360 independents and who many of them voted for Trump in the last 377 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:35,720 election. They are now, you know, they are 378 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:40,080 turning the tide and seeing how disruptive this administration 379 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,400 is on a global scale, I. Mean the the other thing that 380 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,960 you know, really isn't part of with the agenda and never never 381 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,840 really could have been, but it's been talked a lot in the media 382 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,000 is the whole Epstein survivors question, you know, whether the 383 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,760 king should have had some sort of meeting with with any of the 384 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,160 survivors. It always, it always struck me 385 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,080 as highly, highly improbable. But you have this sort of 386 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,760 situation where Trump is in some way tarred by, you know, the 387 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,040 whole question of how much transparency there's been over 388 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,920 the Epstein files. The king is caught in this bind 389 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,280 around his brother Andrew and the ongoing scandal, which he 390 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,920 denies, of course. I mean, is that is Epstein the 391 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,200 sort of the ghost at the at the banquet? 392 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,960 Absolutely. He's the elephant in the room. 393 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,480 And we know that many of the Epstein victims have come out 394 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,240 recently and said, I really want a chance to meet with the king. 395 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,000 Of course that's not going to happen. 396 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,360 This is, you know, a state banquet. 397 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:43,520 It's a it's a visit, but they are being vocal around it. 398 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:49,200 And Andrew was and still is a huge stain on King Charles 399 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,840 monarchy. I mean, on his reign. 400 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,520 Absolutely. I mean, that unfortunately is 401 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,440 probably going to be one of the things that King Charles is 402 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,960 remembered for. And of course, then there is an 403 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:03,200 association with Trump. So very difficult. 404 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,080 It won't happen. But I think it's I, I think it 405 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,400 is very powerful that these women are coming out and taking 406 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,320 a stand and saying we want to meet with you. 407 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,920 Oh, I mean. Is it, is it at all feasible? 408 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,080 I mean, could, Could the Queen, for example, who has spoken 409 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,720 about violence against women and sexual exploitation, could she 410 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,600 have done anything to reach out towards the Epstein victims? 411 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,040 Or is it all just too much? I mean, I, I think that is 412 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,640 possible. And I think if anyone was going 413 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,880 to do it, I think she would be an excellent candidate to have 414 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,680 that conversation. She's showing enormous 415 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,520 sensitivity around this topic. But of course it's not this is, 416 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,600 this is a, a trip not of her making it. 417 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,640 It is, it is not their program. This is the government's program 418 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,120 working with the United States government. 419 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,800 But I think, I mean, this is clearly the most appalling act 420 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,880 of, of international trafficking. 421 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,560 But in diplomatically speaking, this is another risk point 422 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,840 because all it would take is for a journalist to ask this 423 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,040 question in the Oval Office or elsewhere as presumably, given 424 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,520 the United States preponderance and, and, and conviction and 425 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,400 free speech, they could they could so easily do. 426 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,880 But then that creates that moment of embarrassment. 427 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,040 And who knows what then Donald Trump's response to that to that 428 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,000 might be I mean, I agreed with everything that David just said. 429 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,480 We need our relationship with the United States to be strong 430 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,120 to be in during, we need it to operate across multiple theatres 431 00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,280 of economy and security. But my contention would be that 432 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,840 you achieve that not by at this moment putting a foot forward 433 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,720 engagement with a kind of proactive overseas visit. 434 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720 I actually think that demonstrative cooling of a 435 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,880 relationship right now might actually be the better thing for 436 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,240 the long term sustainability of our relationship. 437 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,000 Because to be honest, we do need to work with other political 438 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,000 parties in the future. If, if this trip is perceived as 439 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,160 an endorsement of Trump now by Trump, by the media, by 440 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,240 Americans as a whole, then, and how can we say that we have an 441 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,480 interest in things like international law, which other 442 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,880 political parties in the United States do genuinely put as one 443 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,280 of their key mantras? My contention purely is that 444 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,120 sometimes you need to take a step back. 445 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,800 Now also remember, Krish, this this is not an unprecedented 446 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,880 situation. The 200th anniversary in 1976 447 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,960 was similarly controversial because we had, we just had the 448 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,880 Watergate scandal. There was genuine discussions 449 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,280 about who should go in 1976. Should it be the Queen or should 450 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,640 it be Prince Charles? As was in fact, the Queen did 451 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,120 end up going, but it was a very controversial it was. 452 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,720 It was a discussion that was proactively had at the time. 453 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,120 And there was a security scare as well, and. 454 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:42,200 There was a security scare, too. Absolutely so. 455 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,480 So this is not unprecedented. This is part of a long lineage 456 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,240 of royal visits to the United States. 457 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,480 So David, if you, if you were the ambassador today and the 458 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,800 Epstein survivors contacted you and said well, we would like a 459 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,920 meeting, how would you have handled it Well. 460 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520 I think first thing to say is that I think this is a matter 461 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,080 that should be entirely left to the king and queen, whether they 462 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,120 want to meet the victims. And as I understand it, they're 463 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:12,040 not going to, but I believe the Queen may be meeting some women 464 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,120 who have suffered domestic abuse, but their obviously their 465 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,720 sympathy for the victims is not in any doubt. 466 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,880 I find this quite a curious stick with which if you like to 467 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,640 to beat us because this is an American crisis. 468 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,920 This is an American scandal and tragedy. 469 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,360 Of course, we know very well that there are prominent Brits 470 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,920 involved. But where is the demand to meet 471 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,680 the president of the United States and his wife to talk 472 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,200 about this? Why are we fixating on the king 473 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,400 and the Queen? So I think when we know that 474 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,800 successive presidents of United States have met the victims over 475 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,120 this, and then this has been going on a long time, maybe it's 476 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,320 then time for foreign heads of state to meet with them. 477 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,520 But I find it extraordinary that we should think that this is 478 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,720 this is something that should be particularly focused on on 479 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,920 Britain. And there's one other thing I 480 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,240 would say in reply to what Al said, and he's right about, I 481 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,560 know he feels strongly about this endorsement point. 482 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,360 I'm not clear that any Americans have said that the king 483 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,160 shouldn't come. And that includes Democrats. 484 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,440 And Democrats, I know, I think they want the US to recognize 485 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,040 the United States in all its complexity and not just send the 486 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,840 king as though he's some kind of token of appreciation of Trump. 487 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,560 But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps they'd rather he didn't 488 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,040 come. But I'm certainly not aware of 489 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:35,320 that. And. 490 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,440 And so, David, I mean, the other elephant in the room, if we're 491 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,040 using that image, of course, is the King's son, Prince Harry. 492 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,480 You know, he's, he's going to a country where he lives, then 493 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,880 they're not going to meet. Trump has recently been a bit 494 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,480 snippy about Harry and Meghan and some comments to the to the 495 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,160 media. How awkward is that dynamic? 496 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,680 Well, I think I would detach the family relationship from the 497 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,160 official visit. You know, it's perfectly clear 498 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,920 that Harry and Meghan are not going to be meeting the king 499 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,960 during this. Yes, you're quite right. 500 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,640 President Trump, snippy about the President Trump, pretty 501 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,280 snippy about everybody, pretty snippy about the Pope. 502 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,240 But I don't think you should allow this to get in the way of 503 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,880 the business that's in hand and the role that the king is trying 504 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,720 to play. So again, I mean rather rather 505 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,160 like you know your earlier question about his relationship 506 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,080 with Andrew, I don't think myself that it's material to the 507 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,080 to the main purpose of this visit. 508 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,160 Julie, I mean, do do you have any sympathy with Megan and 509 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,600 Harry? Well, I was commentating at 510 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,280 their wedding back in 2018 at Windsor Castle and you know, it 511 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,040 goes, I go back however many years, that is 8 years. 512 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,040 And it was just this incredible environment where it blue sky, 513 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,440 people were cheering and this was supposed to be the new 514 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,160 modern couple. And we can see how that's 515 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,880 completely fallen off a Cliff and this division that's 516 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,600 happened. But we have to remember that 517 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,480 this is a royal visit. This is duty coming 1st. 518 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,560 And just like the Queen always put duty 1st and she did, King 519 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,280 Charles is doing the exact same thing, duty first. 520 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,280 He's there to represent the UK, as, you know, as the King. 521 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,040 And it is not an opportunity for him to then, you know, head to 522 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,040 California and visit his, his son and daughter-in-law and two 523 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,720 grandchildren. What do you think the dynamic is 524 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,840 with Trump and Megan? Why does he dislike her so much? 525 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,520 Well, because she's been quite vocal. 526 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,720 She's, she's very, she's always been very vocal. 527 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,720 We have to remember that with Megan, you know, even when she 528 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,280 married into the royal family, one of the things that she found 529 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,640 very difficult and almost demoralizing was that she wasn't 530 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,680 allowed to use her voice. And she's been very political 531 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,320 about her views on Donald Trump, as has Prince Harry. 532 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,200 So I suspect now is not the time to have that reunion, if there 533 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,200 was to be 1. How do you think, how do you 534 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,040 think it's come about that the British public seems so, so on 535 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,800 the King's side, if you like, you know, I mean, the public 536 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,840 seems to love William. And Catherine? 537 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,640 And Catherine, they have warmed to the King and Camilla and they 538 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:29,400 seem to loathe Harry and Meghan. Is is that APR campaign done 539 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,880 well or? It's it's very when you unpack 540 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:38,160 it, it's too much. So Harry and Meghan went into it 541 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,040 too much. They said too much, they wrote 542 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,360 too much, they told too much, and they wouldn't stop. 543 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,280 And it gets to that point where the American public is saying, 544 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,720 you know what, actually stop. Enough is enough. 545 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,600 This is your family. At first it comes out as really 546 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,120 good gossip, and then it becomes tiring. 547 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,160 And I think the American public has tired of that. 548 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,320 Whereas you, you look on the flip side and you look at the 549 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,520 Prince and Princess of Wales and the King and Queen. 550 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,760 And they stayed relatively be silent about this. 551 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,720 And silence sometimes can be your best weapon, Al. 552 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,880 The the man we haven't already spoken about is, is Keir 553 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,360 Starmer. And obviously Trump is being, I 554 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:22,040 mean, just bizarrely critical and scathing of Starmer and 555 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,840 insulting. Now politically at home, it's 556 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,320 probably doing Starmer some good is the truth. 557 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,200 But it is a very odd diplomatic situation, isn't it? 558 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,480 I mean, you presume the government is not expecting the 559 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,640 king to try and rescue Starmer's position with Trump. 560 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,960 Well, I don't know, I mean, but maybe that is what they're 561 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,680 they're hoping to some extent because otherwise I I don't know 562 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,360 really why there's. A personal situation. 563 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,640 Well, well, possibly. Possibly because, you know, 564 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,200 after all, support for the United Kingdom surely should 565 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,600 mean at least if not support for Keir Starmer, but at least a 566 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,440 dialling down of the tensions that exist between the White 567 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,000 House, Donald Trump and Keir Starmer, even though Keir 568 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,200 Starmer never seems to truly answer, you know, answer back. 569 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,400 I mean it, it is the most unprecedented breakdown in 570 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,840 diplomatic relations between 2 two partners. 571 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,200 That's why I say I think the special relationship is 572 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,320 currently in tatters. It's a currently a very there's. 573 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,160 Always nonsense, wasn't it? Well, yeah, I mean, probably a 574 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,200 bit nonsense, but it was. But at least it had some 575 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,480 plausibility because at least it was polite enough to be 576 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,600 plausible. It's now not even polite enough 577 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,240 to to be plausible. I mean, it's, it's a fundamental 578 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,560 breakdown. And of course, it's not just 579 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,040 Keir Starmer. It's it's, it's Sadiq Khan in in 580 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,440 London. It's the denigration of 581 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,640 everything from our warships and our aircraft carriers to NATO 582 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,120 to, you know, to, to the, to the reputation of the British Army 583 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,120 in Afghanistan. It just seems that every, 584 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,400 everything connected to the United Kingdom is under some 585 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,640 kind of attack, either by Donald Trump himself or by the broader 586 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,840 MAGA movement. And, and, and that's not just 587 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,560 the White House directing this stuff. 588 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,520 There seems to be something far bigger at play. 589 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,200 There is a huge global disinformation campaign against 590 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,160 the United Kingdom, against our politics, our, our health 591 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,880 service, the presence of Islam in our country as a, as a 592 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,920 religion. There's just seems to be so many 593 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,120 things going on right now that seem to be used very 594 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,440 purposefully to whip up a kind of MAGA base, and the United 595 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,280 Kingdom, for some reason seems to be the foil that the 596 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,360 algorithms are using to try and push that narrative. 597 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,520 So, David, do you think the government will want this visit 598 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,760 to make things a bit easier for Keir Starmer I? 599 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,240 Think they want the visit to make things easier to discuss 600 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,040 the issues that are difficult between us. 601 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,160 The special relationship I think remains special in some respects 602 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,680 because the commitment that we have to one another on in the 603 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,800 defence, intelligence and nuclear fields continues day by 604 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,480 day, whatever Trump says. But of course it makes it much 605 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,480 more difficult to sustain. And I, I suspect, like Al I, I'm 606 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,880 wary of this term and always have been in, in, in my own 607 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,480 case, because I think it's made Britain lazy. 608 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,960 I think it's always made us think, oh, well, whatever 609 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,320 happens, the Americans will have our back. 610 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,960 And we now find with Trump, who doesn't share our values or our 611 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,080 outlook, that this isn't necessarily true. 612 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,640 And we are faced with an extraordinarily difficult NATO 613 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,240 summit in a few weeks time. And we may find out what, 614 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,400 whether Trump still believes in NATO. 615 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,560 And we, we, you know, have, have that guarantee anymore. 616 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,880 But I, I, I don't think that we should assume that we, it's 617 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,360 completely in tatters as Al describes it. 618 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,960 I think it's very difficult. And I think trying to manage it 619 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,640 through this Trump period is what we have to do. 620 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,800 But we are not alone. Trump isn't when Keir Starmer 621 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,360 isn't uniquely in Trump's sight, He happens to be, you know, the 622 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,480 the person who has been taking the Flack recently. 623 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,520 But Macron has had plenty of trouble from and Trump has 624 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,440 served lots of other European leaders. 625 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,280 One of the oddities about this president is he seems to be far 626 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,199 ruder about his notional allies and he is about United States's 627 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,719 notional opponents. And this is obviously making the 628 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,560 the transatlantic relationship very difficult, which is why I 629 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,960 think, as I said earlier, that even if Trump is, you know, 630 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,440 going to leave the scene in two or three years and there might 631 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,159 be a change, we in Europe have to recognise that that the 632 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:32,960 assumptions that we've been working on no longer hold. 633 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:35,120 We can hope that things will get better. 634 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,320 We can hope that in the aftermath of this visit, our 635 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,719 bilateral relationship will improve, or at least that the 636 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,000 discussions that we're having on all these difficult issues like 637 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,440 Russia, Ukraine, train in the Gulf may be more temperate. 638 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,920 But fundamentally, we know that Trump is volatile and 639 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,560 unreliable. And I don't think it would be at 640 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,520 all sensible to hang hopes on one state visit, whether it's 641 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,200 ours or the state visit of any other country, to assume Trump 642 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,840 is suddenly going to change his spot. 643 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,920 He's not but. Do you think you can separate 644 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,400 the special relationship or the diplomatic relationship from the 645 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,600 relationship between Trump and Starmer? 646 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,400 Not wholly, of course. You can't leave. 647 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,040 The relationship at the top has always mattered a lot. 648 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,440 It hasn't always been as warm as some people imagine, but what it 649 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,320 has been based on, much more than personalities, is a shared 650 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,120 view of the world and shared assumptions. 651 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,400 And so when Lyndon Johnson got very angry with Harold Wilson 652 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,440 because Harold Wilson wouldn't send troops to Vietnam, or when 653 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,720 Eisenhower got very cross with Eden First, the Suez episode, 654 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,480 the bilateral relationship between those personalities was 655 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,240 very strained. But the outlook, the common 656 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:54,080 assumptions, the idea we share interests between the two 657 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,080 countries was not fundamentally challenged. 658 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:01,320 That is the effect of Trump. And we are in a different place. 659 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,840 And so when I say the special relationship, I think it is now 660 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,680 fairly technical and covers those areas I've described. 661 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,840 But let's not forget, you know, Trump isn't America. 662 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,040 There are an awful lot of Americans out there who don't 663 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,680 like what he's doing. His poll numbers are terrible, 664 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,720 and they don't like his foreign policy, and they don't like the 665 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:24,960 way he's apparently appeasing Russia and they don't like the 666 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,240 way he's treating America's partners and allies. 667 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,480 So I think we need to keep some sense of perspective here, so. 668 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:37,920 Just finally, Julie, I mean, you know, there was a gun attack in 669 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,280 the hotel on Saturday nights. How? 670 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,320 How worried would you be about security and the King's visit? 671 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,640 I don't think that there really is great alarm. 672 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,000 You know, they would have everything put in place anyway. 673 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,880 They were just, I suspect Buckingham Palace yesterday as, 674 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,160 you know, it was all being reported. 675 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,640 Are they, you know, guessing if they're going to still come, but 676 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,680 they were just in conversation and maybe they're going to 677 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,680 heighten their security. But, you know, this is months in 678 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,480 advance planning and I think that every precaution will be 679 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,120 taken. I, I don't think any of us 680 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,600 expected Charles to King Charles to, to cancel. 681 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,960 But again, they're reviewing it as they should do, but I don't 682 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,320 think that there's any risk. Alice, is this just another 683 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,200 element of uncertainty? I think it's just another 684 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,920 element in the jeopardy that is this trip. 685 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,920 I mean, the timing of that security alert yesterday is 686 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,840 clearly, you know, very, very poor timing in terms of the the 687 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,880 the preparations for this visit. I don't think actually that 688 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,640 should materially change the the overall risk profile of the 689 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,400 trip. I'm sure the security is already 690 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,400 top notch, but I think of course, what that does 691 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,240 represent, it's just the, the, the sheer political divisiveness 692 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,840 in the United States right now that the, the toxic debate 693 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,080 that's taking place. And of course that that is the 694 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,920 context. That's the political context 695 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,440 into which the king is is travelling a a population who 696 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,240 don't seem to be supporting this president terribly strongly, who 697 00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:01,520 I think are rightly judging him for the appalling actions on the 698 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,520 global stage, but also just the daily discourse that he engages 699 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,640 in. So I think I'm more concerned 700 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,880 about what that assassination attempt, the context from which 701 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,240 it emerged, rather than the attempt itself as a material to 702 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,440 to the security of the king. And so so David, your successor 703 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,040 in the British Embassy, Christian Turner, apparently 704 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,160 told staff that the approach was keep calm and carry on. 705 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:25,720 Would that be yours? Yes. 706 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,120 And I know Christian. We worked together when I was in 707 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,520 Washington. He'd be a very good ambassador 708 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,840 and very cool. Well, thank you all very much 709 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,000 indeed for joining us. That's the forecast. 710 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,480 Until next time, bye bye.