1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,720 Any association with this prolific, internationally famous 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,400 paedophile and sex groomer should have been a red black. 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,640 Virginia, it's very clear she wasn't talking about one man. 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,080 It was that whole world. She used to talk about the 1%, 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,239 That 1%, you think they can do anything? 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,560 His incredibly long letter? It fit the language of the rest 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,240 of the birthday notices to Epstein perfectly. 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,200 They all had that kind of like grim, icky, euphemistic chatter 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:31,800 about sort of sexuality. Anything that's hanging over 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:32,880 this whole conversation, it's about that. 11 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,640 Donald Trump is in that book as well. 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,320 And does it actually put more heat on him that Mandelson has 13 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,240 gone over his relationship with Epstein? 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,680 Hello and welcome to the forecast. 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,160 For the third time in his political career, Peter 16 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,680 Mandelson has fallen from high office in a scandal linked to 17 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,240 rich and powerful men. This time it was his 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,040 relationship with the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein that 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,080 proved his undoing. Sacked from his role as UK 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,960 ambassador to the US after leaked emails showed him 21 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,200 offering support for Epstein even after a sex offence 22 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,600 conviction, Downing St. said the Prime Minister found the depth 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,280 and extent of the relationship reprehensible. 24 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,240 But questions are now being asked about Sir Keir Starmer's 25 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,880 judgement in appointing him in the 1st place, given Lord 26 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,040 Mandelson has attracted, some would say courted controversy 27 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,200 throughout his career. He was widely considered to be 28 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,680 doing a good job in Washington, though with a good rapport with 29 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,240 President Trump. Is that relationship now 30 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,680 damaged? To discuss this, I'm joined by 31 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,400 the film maker Richard Sanders, who produced the Dispatches 32 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,360 documentary that first revealed the friendship between the two 33 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,920 men, the Labour peer Aisha Hazarika, and the author and 34 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,360 political journalist Ian Dunt, who has written extensively on 35 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,080 Lord Mandelson. Well, Ayesha first. 36 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,160 He had to go, didn't he? Absolutely. 37 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:54,520 I mean, I think many people felt that when the extent of his 38 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,720 close personal friendship with Jeffrey Epstein came to to 39 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,360 light, you know, people knew that they were friends. 40 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,000 But I think the the level of kind of affection, I mean, they 41 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,759 felt like they were love letters being being written and you 42 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:11,920 know, to use colloquial phrase, I mean, they kind of gave 43 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:13,920 everybody the ick. I mean, it really was, some of 44 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:16,040 it was quite kind of stomach training, stomach training 45 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,800 anyway. But to have these letters to 46 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,840 somebody who, you know, was really kind of the modern day 47 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,120 equivalent in America of what Jimmy Savile was in in the 48 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,360 United Kingdom. So absolutely, with that 49 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,400 question, he definitely had to go. 50 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:33,800 Ian Dunn it it's been a shameful episode and and shaming to 51 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,720 Britain as well. In the eyes of the US, maybe. 52 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,280 Yeah, I mean, it's quite hard. There's not a lot more of our 53 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,880 national reputation for us to uphold at the moment, and we're 54 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,600 really struggling to keep what we do have. 55 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,640 This isn't really helping. We had a really good ambassador 56 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:53,120 to the US, Karen Pierce, you know, seasoned diplomat, not the 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,480 kind of person who ends up on the kind of islands that we're 58 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,040 talking about here. You know, had a long career 59 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,680 stretching back to the 80s, starting in Japan, had managed 60 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,280 to, you know, build the bases in that kind of subtle old 61 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,560 fashioned British Foreign Office sort of way across the spectrum 62 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,040 in the US. And then you get this decision, 63 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,120 which felt kind of weird at the time of being, well, we need a 64 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,360 political operator. And you think, wait, you don't 65 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,040 really need you're absolutely, you've got a really good about 66 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,360 now. Why would you be making any of 67 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,280 these changes? And at that point, we knew 68 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,240 everything that we know now. I mean, fine, so a few emails 69 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,400 have come to light, but it wasn't like the basic facts. 70 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,720 We said today the material facts, which the material facts 71 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,400 have not changed at all. Well, well, let me bring in 72 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,840 Richard on that point, Richard Sanders, because, you know, we 73 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,040 made this film together back in 2019. 74 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,640 The government pops up today and says, well, there's a material 75 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:37,840 change now in what we knew about Mandelson's, Mandelson's 76 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,360 relationship with Epstein. What did we find out in 2019 77 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,080 that we broadcast to the world? It was very frustrating really, 78 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,280 because back in 2019 we had an interviewee, he was an anonymous 79 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,240 interviewee. He was a close friend of of 80 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,000 Epstein's, you know, a man, interesting man, a very, very 81 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,960 wealthy man, had had his own yacht, had various connections 82 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,040 with the intelligence services himself. 83 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,720 And he told us this extraordinary story of visiting 84 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,200 Epstein while he was supposedly in prison, you know, sort of 85 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,480 very, very luxurious prison. And while he's there, he gets 86 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,160 this phone call. Because he was allowed out on 87 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:12,360 day release. To do this. 88 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,720 Calls in his office. Yes, I mean, you know, and he 89 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,560 was only in prison for a year and he gets this extraordinary 90 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,839 phone call from this gentleman called PT and he's sort of 91 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,240 listening to it. He's trying to work out what it 92 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:23,920 is. And and the phone call itself is 93 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,000 interesting. This person wants Epstein to 94 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,000 arrange a meeting. Once the phone was hung up, it 95 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,080 became quite clear that that PT was Peter Mandelson and it and 96 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,160 it was clear that they were very close friends. 97 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,480 The tone of it was they were very close friends and and also 98 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,240 in Peter Mandelson didn't deny this at the time. 99 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,440 What is it as I have no recollection that meeting, which 100 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,040 is a rather rather different thing from denying something. 101 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,680 We got a lot of legal push back at the time. 102 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,920 A lot of legal push back, but it evaporated after we'd actually 103 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,080 gone to. But he also said an interesting 104 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,000 thing. He said why would I need Jeffrey 105 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,800 Epstein to make my bookings for me in New York? 106 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,280 Which is precisely the point. Why indeed? 107 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,600 And we'll talk, we'll come to, you know, why Mandelson was sort 108 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,080 of seduced by rich and powerful men in a second. 109 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,440 But Aisha, all of this given what we knew back in 2019 that 110 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,560 we put out on air and what has dribbled out since, it raises 111 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,280 serious questions, doesn't it, about Sir Keir Starmer's 112 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:20,000 judgement in appointing Peter Mandelson to this plum job? 113 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Well, it's now coming to light that concerns were raised the 114 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,040 Labour peer Morris Glassman, who's very close to Morgan 115 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,840 McSweeney, who is Keir Starmer's chief of staff. 116 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,200 You know, it's said that he submitted a memo, you know, 117 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,720 close to the time saying, look, I'm, I think this is a difficult 118 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,000 appointment. But I think the calculation was 119 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,640 from Keir Starmer's team that the prospect of negotiating with 120 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,440 Donald Trump was going to be so difficult, particularly when a 121 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,440 lot of people in the cabinet had sort of slagged Donald Trump off 122 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:55,800 over the years. You needed somebody. 123 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,240 But including Peter Mandelson though. 124 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,000 Absolutely. But you needed somebody who 125 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,880 could kind of sort of be a Trump whisperer who could move in 126 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,520 those sort of circles, which Peter is very good at doing 127 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,240 because he does like wealth and he likes wealthy men and and 128 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,600 powerful men as, as, as we've seen. 129 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,600 But I think what what should have been a big red flag is the 130 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:21,160 fact that anybody with a close friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, 131 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,000 massive, massive red flag. Don't forget the Prince Andrew 132 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,360 story and saga in our country, the Emily Maitlis interview, the 133 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,520 fact that he kept his friendship going with Jeffrey Epstein even 134 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,080 after he had been convicted, and the fact that, you know, Prince 135 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,560 Andrew had to be sort of discarded from, from, from the 136 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,600 royal family. I mean, any association with 137 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,960 this prolific, internationally famous paedophile and sex 138 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,120 groomer should have been a a red flag. 139 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,240 But I think the calculation was that the government and I, I 140 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,720 kind of understand from a, you know, from a business point of 141 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,000 view, from a trade point of view, you know, they were just 142 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,160 thinking about, look, we don't want to get massive tariffs from 143 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,000 Trump. We want to have a good deal with 144 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,080 Trump. But I think you also have to 145 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,080 remember your your values in this. 146 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,640 Ian Dunn, you should never have been appointed in the first 147 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,640 place. No, I mean obviously not. 148 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,720 And then having been appointed, they needed to be much quicker 149 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,080 off the mark of realising what the significance of what's 150 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,040 happened this week was. In fact, they failed him. 151 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:22,200 So yesterday you get like Prime Minister in PMQ speaking very 152 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,440 confidently about something that you're looking at and thinking 153 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,360 like, is that line going to hold? 154 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,000 Like it doesn't feel like it's going to hold. 155 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,040 Sending out minister this morning and the immigration 156 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,640 minister to hold that line and you're thinking like this line 157 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,440 is not going to hold. So that's someone there who's 158 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,320 not going to forget the fact that they've been sent out to do 159 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,560 that, who will be a bit more reticent about going out to hold 160 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,160 the government line next time. Once you build a lot of people 161 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,760 around you who feel that way, who question your judgement, who 162 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:48,560 don't know if they'll be hung out to dry and made to look a 163 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,560 fool by the fact that you're going to U-turn on something 164 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,480 that you currently seem terribly confident about, that's when 165 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,880 things start to become quite difficult for you in Parliament. 166 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,160 That's what's scuppered plenty of Conservative prime ministers 167 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,920 over the last, you know, decade and a bit. 168 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,000 So no, I would worry quite a lot about the decision making that 169 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,400 lay behind both the original appointment and the things that 170 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,720 have happened this week. And Peter Mandelson has already 171 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,680 been turfed out of Cabinet jobs in the past. 172 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:12,960 I knew you were there when some of that. 173 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:14,840 Yeah. I mean, look, he, he's very much 174 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,080 seen as the sort of Icarus, you know, kind of character in, in, 175 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,280 in the Labour Party. He was, you know, he had to 176 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,000 resign because of a loan he took from a man called Geoffrey 177 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,840 Robinson. He then had to resign over an 178 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 issue about passports for 2 Indian businessmen, the Hinduja 179 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,919 brothers, although he was subsequently cleared of that. 180 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:40,520 So he is somebody that is kind of a high risk, high voltage 181 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,919 person. But I think the other thing that 182 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:45,560 I just like to sort of see in all of this, Kathy, is that, 183 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:49,360 look, this New Labour government has also got a really important 184 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,720 mission and that's to have violence against women and 185 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,000 girls. And it's really proud to be a 186 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,560 party, even though we haven't had a female leader, we're very 187 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,360 proud of of delivering for women, particularly in terms of 188 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,880 violence against women. And I think a lot of women in 189 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,320 the Labour Party were really horrified about this. 190 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,280 We've just had this big grooming scandal in this country, the 191 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,240 Pakistani grooming scandal. I met some victims recently in 192 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,200 Parliament and it was so painful listening to them. 193 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:23,000 And the long tail of this kind of abuse from women who were 194 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,080 groomed from a young age by paedophiles and raped for sex. 195 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,280 People think these are crimes that happened like, you know, 20 196 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:30,480 years ago. Get over it, move on. 197 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,000 No, for these women, the long tail of these crimes, I mean, 198 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,840 Virginia Jeffrey took her own life. 199 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,520 And I think in a mix, in the midst of all this, who's up, 200 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,080 who's down, What kind of characters, Peter? 201 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,120 There are victims who are everyday reliving this horror 202 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,680 and trauma. Well, and Richard, it was very 203 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:52,360 clear in that just excruciating birthday book that we're we're 204 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,760 that we saw 238 pages running joke about Epstein's appetite 205 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,800 for young women. I mean, horrifying. 206 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,000 But there'll be other people now sweating because they know that 207 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,880 they've looked at what's happened to Peter Mandelson. 208 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,120 They know that they might be next. 209 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,760 Tell us about that. Well, there's a lot of people, 210 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,920 you see when we did the film in 2019, all this business about 211 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,840 the the Epstein list. And will the Epstein List be be 212 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,240 produced? I don't think it's, it's quite 213 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,080 as mysterious as that. We, there had been a lot of 214 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,040 legal proceedings over the years. 215 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,240 And we looked into those legal proceedings really carefully. 216 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,000 And there was a massive documentation online. 217 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,600 And when you really picked it apart, you got, you know, a lot 218 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,920 of names, all very rich and very powerful, a lot of them very 219 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,680 well known. Some world leaders in there. 220 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,040 Now, in the year after our film, I got to know Virginia quite 221 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,800 well. I used to speak to Virginia on 222 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,640 the phone all, all the time and she was very keen to go go after 223 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,520 them. She she wanted to go after them. 224 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,800 But obviously it's the legal implications. 225 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,800 You're going to get sued by these people. 226 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,560 But is that going to start happening now, do you think? 227 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:01,080 I mean, because there's talk the Epstein victims talking about 228 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,480 sort of putting together their own client list and getting out 229 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,640 there naming and shaming. Yeah, well, I mean, it would, it 230 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,680 would all depend on the lawyers. I mean, you know, we, we, we 231 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,800 discussed this making follow up films and, and, and the problem 232 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,120 was the, the risk of being sued by extremely wealthy people. 233 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:18,240 Are you sure you know a client list? 234 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,240 Is that? Is that where this now goes? 235 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,840 Well, I think where they should go now is instead of just 236 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,160 talking about the careers of very, you know, rich men, I 237 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,480 think this needs to move to the victims and justice for the 238 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,920 victims. There are many, many men 239 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,200 implicated in this. This is a a, you know, a very 240 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,520 elite network of, of men. And I think when Peter Mandelson 241 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,200 did that interview with his son and he said, you know, my heart 242 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,080 goes out to to those victims. I hope and I sincerely hope he 243 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,200 did mean that. And I think one thing he could 244 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,040 do, because nobody is coming forward to help those victims 245 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,560 and, you know, give any evidence or talk to them about what they 246 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,960 know. And that's what, you know, will 247 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,560 move this case forward. So I would strong I would like 248 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:10,040 to see him reach out to the victims groups now and sit down 249 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,760 with them and tell people what he saw and what he knew to help 250 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,120 these victims. I mean, there's no implication 251 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,240 that he was involved in the abuse in any way whatsoever. 252 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,240 I should just make that clear. But what do you think of that 253 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,680 suggestion that Peter Mandelson should sort of help expose and 254 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:29,320 name and shame some of these rich and very powerful men? 255 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,320 Yeah, that'll be helpful. I don't think it's like, but I 256 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,600 mean, you know, it would be encouraging if we were to see 257 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,640 something like that. I mean, I think we, we've 258 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,560 understood the, the pattern with him. 259 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,280 It's strange, you know, because we just had like a summer of 260 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,200 Oasis and everything's about the late 90s. 261 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:45,920 Now I just feel like I'm back in the late 90s. 262 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,800 It's exactly the same story that we were dealing with like 1998. 263 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,040 It's the first time we had a resignation. 264 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,640 It's the same resignation is always the same. 265 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,240 It's always the same circumstance. 266 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:55,880 It's like, should you really have been friends with this 267 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,800 tremendously wealthy man when he was EU commissioner, by the way, 268 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,600 in between these two lives? Exactly the same stories coming 269 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:02,800 out. Should you really have been 270 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,520 seeing this Russian oligarch? Should you really have been 271 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,400 hanging out with this person from Microsoft when they're 272 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,400 under investigation? You know, over and over It's the 273 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,480 same story with him. When someone exhibits the kind 274 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,240 of behaviour you see like that just happening over and over 275 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,280 with regularity unchanged over about 30 decades, you sort of 276 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,560 think I very much doubt this person's going to change anytime 277 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:20,640 soon. And I'm afraid I wouldn't have 278 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,080 much hope that he will. What is it about wealthy men 279 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,640 that appeals to Peter Mandelson? I mean, for certain people, that 280 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,880 is a very attractive kind of social milieu to be in, and I 281 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,760 guess he's one of them. What's interesting about his 282 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,920 incredibly long letter was that it fit the language of the rest 283 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,720 of the birthday notices Epstein perfectly. 284 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,560 They all had that kind of like grim, icky, euphemistic chatter 285 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:52,080 about sort of sexuality. And he's all the same with 286 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,360 Manson and stuff about the Yum, Yum this and that. 287 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,160 It was all, it was icky, right? But it was the exact language 288 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:58,480 that all the other letters were using. 289 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,000 He clearly fit in that society and that kind of social context. 290 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,520 Aisha. Well, I mean, I think Peter has 291 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,400 always been very seduced by, by wealth and he's always, 292 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,040 obviously always been attracted to it. 293 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,560 And, you know, you know, I, I know Peter reasonably well. 294 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:19,160 I've worked with him over the, the years. 295 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,200 And I think for people who are very, very close to him, the 296 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,920 frustration is he is a, he is a great political mind. 297 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,040 And he's also his own worst enemy in the sense that, you 298 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:34,240 know, he has this ability to self sabotage his his his 299 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,240 career. And he is obviously, you know, 300 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,880 like a moth to the flame, attracted to extreme wealth and 301 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,920 these very particular types of very wealthy, very powerful men. 302 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,520 You don't really get that many powerful, wealthy women. 303 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,480 So it is powerful, wealthy men. Ian, how's the state visit going 304 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,280 to go now? That's going to be really 305 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,040 difficult. I mean, mostly because, of 306 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:57,680 course, the thing that's hanging over this whole conversation is 307 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,720 fact that Donald Trump is in that book as well. 308 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,200 And despite the fact that, you know, the far right in the US 309 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,640 have been pretending for over a decade now that they're 310 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,840 tremendously worked up by elite network. 311 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,200 So they've completely imagined in their head, the second that 312 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,520 they get presented with a real elite network that implicates 313 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,680 their hero, they suddenly don't have anything to say. 314 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,120 Nevertheless, he is in that book and in any rational world that 315 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,720 would be the the first thing and the only thing that we would be 316 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,760 talking about over the last week as as a globe, as a world, 317 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,080 that's what we would be discussing. 318 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,920 And does it actually put more heat on him that Mandelson has 319 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,840 gone over his relationship with Epstein? 320 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,120 It's going to make it a tremendously difficult thing for 321 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,600 Keir Starmer to navigate, which is the conversation about Peter 322 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,080 Manson on the one hand, and what he needs to do to keep Donald 323 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,120 Trump sweet during a state visit, on the other. 324 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,800 And there's a very small area in between those two circles that 325 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,840 you can operate within in the way that isn't going to upset 326 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,360 attitudes on one side or the other. 327 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,040 And I think Starmer's going to really struggle with that. 328 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,760 That is a problem of his own making. 329 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,480 And if they'd been a little bit more cognizant and strategic 330 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,280 about the way that these things could work out, that problem 331 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,040 would not necessarily have had to have taken place. 332 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,200 Ian is right. Look, Peter Mandelson not being 333 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,160 here orchestrating and conducting this state visit will 334 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,520 make it more difficult. And of course, there will be 335 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,360 more scrutiny and more heat on Donald Trump now because of of, 336 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,360 of the Epstein connection. And of course, all of this also 337 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,680 makes it quite difficult for the royal, uncomfortable for the 338 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,880 royal family because of the Prince Andrew link as well. 339 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,040 So this is all going to be very, very tense. 340 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,160 But, you know, also we've got a new foreign secretary as well 341 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,280 who will be kind of navigating this. 342 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,960 I mean, it helps that David Lammy does have a good 343 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,160 relationship with JD Vance. I'm sure David Lammy as Deputy 344 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,680 Prime Minister will, will now probably move into quite an 345 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,760 important position. But I don't think we should kid 346 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,760 ourselves. This state visit is going to be 347 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,000 quite, quite tricky. Just on the point about about 348 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,560 Trump, it's very important to bear in mind. 349 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,760 Who denies any wrongdoings? And as Virginia was quite clear 350 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,040 that she'd never been abused by Trump, Epstein world was 351 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,280 fundamentally a democratic world, as was Harvey Weinsteins. 352 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,840 Okay, Bloomberg have 18,000 of Epstein emails or I think 353 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,319 Trump's name pops up three times. 354 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,640 There's a story that it's very odd it hasn't been picked up 355 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,400 more. Yesterday the Times reported 356 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,040 that there's a memo Peter Mandelson sent to Tony Blair in 357 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,160 2002 saying you really ought to meet this man. 358 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,079 Now. It wasn't meet him to discuss 359 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,319 this or something specific. It was just in general. 360 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,079 He's a useful person to know. I'm amazed no one seems to have 361 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,760 asked Tony Blair, did you meet? Him, don't worry. 362 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,480 We've been bidding for him. But but I mean, how damaging is 363 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,160 this whole thing to Trump, though? 364 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,840 I mean, I take your point that this was a sort of a bigger 365 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:33,800 problem for the Democrats. But you know, Trump happens to 366 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,960 be the one in power. So how problematic is the whole 367 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,400 thing? For him, I think it is 368 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,560 problematic. Trump and he fell out at a 369 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,720 certain point before Epstein went to prison, they fell out 370 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:44,600 and that that relationship stopped. 371 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,840 So I'm not sure how much more there is to come out about Trump 372 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:50,520 than has already come out. I mean, I used to talk to 373 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,080 Virginia. That's been bad enough, though. 374 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:53,760 It's been bad enough. I used to talk to Virginia quite 375 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,200 a lot about Trump. She he was sleazy. 376 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,600 You'd see him around. He was a sleazy, unpleasant 377 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,480 presence. But other men loomed much larger 378 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,640 in her memory. Just coming back to the state 379 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:09,000 visit and sort of picking up the pieces from this mess, Who will 380 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,920 be, I mean, we know we've got an acting ambassador, but who's 381 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,240 going to be the permanent replacement or who should be? 382 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:17,320 Karen Pierce. Well, I mean, look, I do agree 383 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,800 with what Ian said. I mean, Karen Pearce was a 384 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,920 really well respected figure. I think having a, a female 385 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,840 ambassador is a, is a, is a really good thing. 386 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,280 She was somebody who, you know, the, the White House felt that 387 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,760 they could work with. You know, she was really 388 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,360 respected by the, by the, the department. 389 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,960 And I think as well, I think civil servants and the 390 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,560 diplomatic service were always felt slightly uncomfortable 391 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,000 about this top job being a political appointment rather 392 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,600 than being an appointment that went to sort of a top diplomat 393 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,120 who had really, you know, cut their teeth around the the 394 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:56,560 world. And so it should revert. 395 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,760 To that in your. View Well, I just think after 396 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,120 after everything that's happened, I think that would 397 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:04,120 make a lot of sense. I mean, let's see what number 10 398 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,480 decide to do. But I think bringing Karen back 399 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,400 would be no bad thing. Ian is it going to be sort of a 400 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,560 political now? And hopefully we would go back 401 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,840 to the default setting and go for that kind of person. 402 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,960 And there is a reason that we have these people in those kind 403 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,080 of jobs and and they don't typically get themselves into 404 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,880 trouble like this. It would also be quite good, I 405 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,480 think for for the Labour government. 406 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,360 Just have a think about the kind of language and principles that 407 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:29,360 had established at the beginning when it came into government. 408 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,920 We will be cleaner than clean. We are going to show that you 409 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,800 can kill populism by virtue. Just showing like we are going 410 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,680 to get rid of sleeves. We're going to get rid of this 411 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,240 kind of behaviour. Now we've we've seen things that 412 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,560 I think are very much, I thought the rain I think was very, very 413 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,120 minor and extremely forgivable and a bit silly on tax. 414 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:46,640 It's not. It's nowhere near the kind. 415 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:47,800 Of other people see it differently. 416 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,080 But we do see it differently. But I mean, I, I would be 417 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,440 surprised if you went to most people with what do you think 418 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,240 the moral severity of these two stories is last week or this 419 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,200 week? Most people would obviously 420 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,320 think this is a much graver kind of situation that we're talking 421 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,360 about this week. But on that basis, it's a good 422 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,240 chance for them to say, hang on a minute, let's make sure we're 423 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,200 living up to that language and those principles that we 424 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,720 expressed when we first came into government. 425 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,720 I just think so, so kind of fascinating from a kind of a 426 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,120 feminist point of view. It just shows you about this 427 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:18,280 kind of network of these incredibly powerful this these 428 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,560 elite men and the sort of impunity with which they thought 429 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,480 they could behave. And the fact that they earned a 430 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,560 lot of money or they ran these big businesses where they held 431 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,560 these great positions in office. But has that. 432 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,560 Changed now I. I, I mean, I, I hope so, I don't 433 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,280 know. And I think so many people will, 434 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,480 will look at this and just think, you know, this sort of 435 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:44,920 inherently sort of patriarchal sort of behaviour, which is, and 436 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,840 this sort of behaviour that impunity men who clearly felt 437 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,560 that they could just get away with it because these were the 438 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,560 masters of the universe. These were kind of these global 439 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,160 emperors and they were above the law and they were above morality 440 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,200 and they were above decency. I mean, and, and, and the 441 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,160 tentacles of Jeffrey Epstein go, you know, as you say, it's not 442 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,240 just one political party. It was Democrats, publicans, you 443 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,240 know, the Labour. I'm sure there's political 444 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,600 parties all over the world. Business, business. 445 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,160 The royal family, you know, there is a Nexus of this 446 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,840 absolutely like disgusting, venal, sickening behaviour which 447 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,920 these men for decades have just been able to get away with. 448 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,040 So that that's Virginia used to talk about that all the time. 449 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,760 She was very clear. She wasn't talking about one 450 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,600 man. She wasn't even talking about 451 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,720 the, the, the sort of circle around him. 452 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,960 It was that whole world he moved in. 453 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,240 She used to talk about the 1%, that 1% who think they can do 454 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,560 anything. Well, let's talk about the 455 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,080 politics more broadly. Aisha, You're well plugged into 456 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,280 the entire parliamentary party, of course. 457 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,920 How disgruntled are people? Well, I mean, there's no way to 458 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,680 sort of sugar the pill. I mean, there has been a very, 459 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,080 very difficult couple of weeks for the, for the. 460 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,720 Labour Party, I mean, it's been disastrous, hasn't. 461 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,640 It of course it's been very, very difficult, been coming 462 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,640 back, doing a reset and then at the end of that week, you know, 463 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,600 losing Angela Rayner who you know, I think she had to go 464 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,680 given what she did. But it was a great loss to the 465 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,920 party because she was a really good communicator. 466 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,320 She was held in a great amount of affection. 467 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:18,080 She was a great campaigner. And now a week on losing, you 468 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,800 know, one of the kind of prime jobs in, in, in the government, 469 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,160 you know, in terms of those sort of trinkets given out, it's, 470 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,840 it's terrible. And I think the members and the 471 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,520 Parliamentary Labour Party are are definitely sort of jittery, 472 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,360 but they're not just sort of jittery in an internal way. 473 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,840 They want this get Labour government to succeed, right? 474 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,600 They really want this Labour government to succeed because 475 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,440 the alternative is absolutely terrifying. 476 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,920 The prospect of staring down the barrel at Prime Minister Nigel 477 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,640 Farage is absolutely terrifying. For Labour's incompetence is is 478 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,320 bringing that day further forward. 479 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,840 By the minute things have not been going well and the Labour 480 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,800 Party does and the the kind of leadership absolutely needs to, 481 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,440 to get a grip. But in terms of where the mood 482 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:07,120 of the party is, it's, it's very worried and it wants the kind of 483 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,800 leadership and it wants to pull together to sort of do good for 484 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,240 the country and tell that story. But at the moment it just feels 485 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,680 like there's so many sort of scandals happening. 486 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,680 And they want to, they want this Labour government to, as, as Ian 487 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,280 said, do what they promised to do, which is come in, change the 488 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,880 country, fix this country for the, for the better, you know, 489 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,680 and, and, and get on with building a sort of positive 490 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,360 Britain. And they want to move on from, 491 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,760 from from these distractions. Much anyone at the moment who is 492 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,440 like even from the center right to the sort of socialist left is 493 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,280 just desperate for this government to succeed because 494 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,200 you're seeing the stuff in the wings. 495 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,720 And the stuff in the wings is not the conservatism that we're 496 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,640 used to. And we we're having somewhat 497 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,560 like a mainstream politician stand up and talk about 498 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,120 basically like mass deportations. 499 00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:59,040 Like it's what like some kind of normal policy. 500 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,400 It's a far right policy. That's what it is. 501 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,160 It's far right talk. It's far right rhetoric and we 502 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,800 know that there is this poison. And yet when you look for some 503 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,120 kind of leadership, what you see from the top of the Labour Party 504 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:14,800 is just this sort of sense of like we, we are unwilling to 505 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,440 speak about our values. Like we're just not going to say 506 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,000 we're unwilling to speak with any kind of emotion at all. 507 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,920 The only criticism we will make of even a policy, as extreme as 508 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,400 that is we think that you've constructed incompetently. 509 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,760 It's like that's not the problem with the policy. 510 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,080 The policy policy is that it's a moral obscenity. 511 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,840 So there is just no sense of a progressive voice seemingly like 512 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,000 in this country at all. It's really hard to find it 513 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,760 anywhere to the point that you end up with, you know, like the 514 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,520 leader of the Green Party and the FT, like, you know, that's 515 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,640 where you're getting your. It's a ridiculous state of 516 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,040 affairs. So Are you sure if the 517 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,640 leadership doesn't get it's act together, is Keir Starmer 518 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,680 potentially out of a job before the next election? 519 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,160 I, I don't, I don't think so because I do think that even 520 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,560 though people are disgruntled, remember I think you have to 521 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,720 just look back through history. It is not often that Labour wins 522 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,920 a general election. Keir Starmer is only the 7th 523 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,000 Labour Prime Minister in the history of British politics, 524 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,440 right. And so I think even though 525 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,200 people are, are definitely not happy at the moment and 526 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,000 grumbling, I think people do also remember that we don't 527 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,840 often have a Labour government. It was hard fought for and to be 528 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,000 fair to Keir Starmer, he is the person that got the party over 529 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,480 the line for many, many years. Labour is very, very good at 530 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,880 losing elections. He did something that that no 531 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,720 Labour leader's done for a long time and I've worked for a 532 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,000 number of different Labour leaders. 533 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,960 He got Labour over the line, but what he's got to do is he's got 534 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:42,480 to sort of get his team together and look, there are some really 535 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:43,560 important things that are happening. 536 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,280 Things are starting to turn a corner with the NHS. 537 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,160 There's record investment going into infrastructure and 538 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,360 planning. You know, the defence spending 539 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,600 is, is, is, is doing lots of good work for kind of jobs up 540 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,640 and down the country. Massive shipbuilding coming back 541 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,400 to to to to Scotland with this Norway deal. 542 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,240 So and the economy is stalling and immigration is still. 543 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,360 Going home, but that but it's wrong to say that there's like 544 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,480 it's not balance say that there's nothing good or nothing 545 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,320 positive happening. But Labour apps. 546 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,120 It has to get a grip. And one thing you said, you said 547 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:14,680 emotionally, and that's so important. 548 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,400 It's no point just pointing to charts and graphs going look 549 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,040 what's happening. It's about having an emotional 550 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,440 connection and having an emotional dialogue because 551 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,480 people out there right now are so anxious. 552 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,440 They're anxious about the economy, they're anxious about 553 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,560 immigration, they're anxious about crime, anti social 554 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,160 behaviour, what they're seeing. And Labour has got to be more on 555 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,200 the front foot, a better kind of speaking, a language that 556 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,240 connects with people. Ian Keir Tom has never been 557 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,720 capable of speaking that language. 558 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,360 Do you see him safe in his job until the next election? 559 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,160 Or do you think if things keep on, you know Farage is still 560 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,680 ahead in the polls for the next year? 561 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,560 2 Whatever then it's curtains for Kier. 562 00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,200 The you can hear the whispers. I mean, even the way the people 563 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,400 have been talking about Andy Burnham, you know, in this 564 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,960 slightly sci-fi sort of way, it's quite hard to see the 565 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,760 blocking of how you get him into part of it. 566 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,160 But you know, even that the sort of, you know, these attempts are 567 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,520 just finding some kind of alternative. 568 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,360 You can hear the whispers starting to build now. 569 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,920 Still, the good money would be on Kier Starmer leading into the 570 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,200 next election. Absolutely, Aisha. 571 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,840 Finally, you're in the Lords for Labour. 572 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,320 You're looking forward to sharing those benches with Peter 573 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,600 Mandelson. Well, let's see if he, you know, 574 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,360 comes back and wants to. I mean, he might want to stay in 575 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,120 America for, for a while. That will be a decision for him. 576 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:26,440 Would he be welcoming the Lords though? 577 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,280 You'll have to ask some of his other colleagues. 578 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,280 What I'm asking you, do you welcome him back to the Lords? 579 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,720 I mean, is it, is it appropriate that he's, he's been sacked from 580 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,760 one of the plum jobs, is it right that he turns it up back 581 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,480 in the Lords? The Labour, that isn't it. 582 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,800 I mean, the way the Lords operate says there's a lot of 583 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,440 people that are under, you know, a lot of scrutiny. 584 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,640 And I think it's important to say he's not broken the law and 585 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,320 you've said that he hasn't done. We've established, you know, 586 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,680 we're not saying that he himself, but it was his. 587 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,680 But he might have broken the Lord's code of conduct, which 588 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,000 would. Require him to be suspended. 589 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,760 That will be for the, for the Lords of authorities to, to, to 590 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,480 have a look at. All I can say is he hasn't done, 591 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,080 you know, things like other people have done, like dodgy PPE 592 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,760 and things like that and, you know, sort of done. 593 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,160 He hasn't, I think it's really, really clear he's not broken any 594 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,800 rules or, you know, done anything like like that. 595 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,680 But you know, as I say for Peter, if he's serious about 596 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,240 having sympathy for those victims, I would really like to 597 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,280 see him to reach out to, you know, the the lawyers of the 598 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,480 victims, some of the victims and, and, and talk to them 599 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,160 because his knowledge, and we're not saying he is, he's done 600 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,520 anything wrong, but his knowledge could really help 601 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:34,920 them. Richard, would the victims 602 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,560 welcome that? Oh yes, certainly. 603 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,040 I mean anyone who can, who can speak up and provide evidence. 604 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,560 The other one person who knows absolutely everything is Gilane 605 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,320 Maxwell as well, of course. Richard Sanders, Ian Dunt and 606 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,760 Aisha Hazarika, thank you all very much for joining us. 607 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,840 That is it for this episode of THE FORECAST. 608 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,480 Until next time, goodbye.