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It's hard not to think the UK is
on fire. 

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There's anger everywhere. 
Is it? 

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People are extremely angry. 
A dangerous level of anger in 

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your view? 
Yeah, seething with anger. 

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None of the conditions of what 
happened last summer have gone 

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away. 
Violence might not happen, but 

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the absence of riots shouldn't 
be anybody's test for cohesion 

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in our country. 
Sometimes all we need to do is 

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sit down with these people, meet
each other, and you'll discover 

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that the other side aren't 
necessarily the monsters which 

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you think they are. 
Hello and welcome to the 

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forecast Are anti migrant 
protests around the country 

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about to explode into another 
summer of riots? 

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A year ago, towns across Britain
were in flames as anti 

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immigration protests turned 
violent. 

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They were prompted by the mass 
stabbing of girls as a dance 

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class in Southport, but fuelled 
by online misinformation and 

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anti Muslim rhetoric. 
It was the largest instance of 

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social unrest in England for 
more than a decade and there are

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fears that this summer could see
a repeat. 

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Already there's been a string of
protests around hotels housing 

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asylum seekers, the Police 
Federation called recent unrest 

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in Epping a signal flare. 
So with the number of migrants 

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crossing the Channel in small 
boats actually up, and social 

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media, not to mention certain 
MPs pumping out inflammatory 

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comments, is a summer marked by 
more violence inevitable? 

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And how did the police, the 
politicians and the protesters 

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them styles distinguish between 
the genuine concerns of 

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dispossessed communities and the
gratuitous violence of racists 

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and the far right? 
To discuss this I'm joined by 

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the academic doctor Lisa 
McKenzie, who writes primarily 

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about working class communities 
and class inequality. 

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Sundar Katwala, the director of 
the think tank British Future, 

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which focuses on diversity and 
social inclusion, and Adam 

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Kelwick, imam of EU KS oldest 
mosque in Liverpool, who came to

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prominence during last year's 
riots with his attempts at 

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dialogue with protesters. 
Thank you, all of you, for 

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joining us today. 
Can I begin by asking you, if 

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you look at what we've been 
looking at, at Epping in other 

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places across the country, it's 
hard not to think the UK is on 

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fire. 
There's anger everywhere, Is it?

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Yeah, I think there is. 
I'll be honest, I'm not sure 

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that we're in for a summer of 
riots. 

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I'm not sure about that. 
But I do know that there's been 

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a growing anger that is 
inescapable. 

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You know what isn't inescapable 
for me? 

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Because I live in a working 
class community. 

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I work in working class 
communities and people are 

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extremely angry. 
But it's a number of things. 

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It's not just one thing, it's 
lots of things. 

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It's things not working 
properly. 

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It's the cost of living crisis. 
You know, everybody's 

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complaining that every that food
is going up day by day. 

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And then of course, you know, 
there's this constant news cycle

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about people coming in from 
different countries, you know, 

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are they getting this or are 
they getting that? 

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And there is a drip feed going 
on. 

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So people are extremely angry. 
A dangerous level of anger in 

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your view? 
Yeah, I, I would, I would say 

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ordinary people that that a few 
years ago didn't even know any 

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of this existed are now talking 
about it. 

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And people who a few years ago 
did know it existed are now 

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seething with anger. 
So yeah, I I would say that this

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is where we are. 
Senator Cutwaller, I'm in a 

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country, or at least parts of 
it, seething with anger. 

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I think riots and violence 
certainly aren't inevitable, but

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they're but they're possible. 
I think we need vigilance 

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without alarmism. 
That can be a difficult balance 

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to strike. 
None of the conditions of what 

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happened last summer have gone 
away in terms of the tinderbox 

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on social media, if there is a 
shocking event, if there were 

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rumours of something that's 
happened in terms of the long 

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term underlying causes. 
So we we haven't dealt with the 

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long term causes, we haven't 
dealt with some of the sharp 

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short term pressures. 
But you know, violence might not

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happen. 
But the absence of riots 

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shouldn't be anybody's test for 
cohesion in our country. 

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You were in the middle of the 
actual violence and rioting of 

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last year. 
Where do you think we are right 

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now? 
So I I like to always be 

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optimistic, but at the same time
that has to be balanced with 

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some realism. 
And unfortunately, all the 

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ingredients which were there 
last year are also still here 

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this year. 
I think you know, the, the, the 

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firewood, which are these small 
numbers of these very 

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ideologically driven people, 
whether that's racism, anti 

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immigrant hatred, anti Muslim 
hatred, they are there. 

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The fuel is continuously being 
poured maybe even more intensely

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now than last year by the media,
whether that's the mainstream 

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media or whether it's online 
channels and accounts. 

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And unfortunately, if there was 
to be a spark, I think there is 

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a very real danger that we could
find ourselves in a similar 

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situation to last year. 
OK. 

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You both touch on this idea of 
the ingredients are there. 

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I don't know whether you agree 
about what those ingredients 

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are. 
I'm assuming you'd say they're 

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not ideologically driven. 
Not well. 

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There are ideologically driven 
people who are making hay out of

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these situations. 
Of course there are on the far 

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right and on the left as well. 
That is happening. 

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But then there are other 
ingredients. 

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You know, there is 40 years of 
deindustrialisation and no 

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economic strategy that's gonna 
lift the bottom up. 

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There's poverty, there's 
feelings of hopelessness. 

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You know, we've had 40 years of,
of, of inequality widening and 

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hopelessness. 
So don't you know, we shouldn't 

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be not expecting. 
We've got hopeless people, you 

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know, people who look out in 
their future and don't see 

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anything good happening. 
But it ties to this very big 

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question, doesn't it, about what
are legitimate concerns and what

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are legitimate ways of 
expressing them. 

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I, I do find myself in, in, in 
agreement with you because as I 

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said, there are a small number 
of these people who are pushing 

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certain ideologies and 
narratives. 

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But what happens is the vast 
majority of people who are 

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dragged into these protests and 
these riots are, in my 

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experience, because I've been 
working a lot with people who 

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attended the riots last year. 
I've been building real 

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friendships with them. 
And I've found that actually the

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vast majority of the number of 
people who attend these riots 

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and protests aren't necessarily 
the types who are driven by the 

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ideologies. 
They're dragged into other 

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people's narratives. 
And in fact, they're just 

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genuine people who have genuine 
concerns. 

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And they are worried about 
society. 

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They are worried about their 
children. 

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They have lots of worries who we
incidentally, as a Muslim 

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community also share with those 
concerns with. 

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Them when so much of that sorry 
with so much of those legitimate

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concerns that you both talked 
about seemed throughout the 

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riots last time we look at the 
the hotel issue directed at 

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immigrants directed at migrants.
I think it's right to have the 

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concept of legitimate concerns. 
There are people who mock that 

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and say it's always dog 
whistling or it's always 

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pandering prejudice. 
But I think we forget something,

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which is the very concept of 
legitimate concerns involves a 

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differentiation between the 
legitimate and the illegitimate.

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And that is partly about the 
means, which is it's peaceful 

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voice and your right to voice, 
and it's not violence, 

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intimidation and threat. 
And it's partly about what 

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you're saying as well. 
So if you're saying send them 

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all back or extend that we don't
just want the asylum seekers 

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out, we want all the minorities,
all the Muslims, you know, 

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everybody out to them, that's 
illegitimate. 

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And I think if you're defending 
the legitimate concerns, you 

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also have to be drawing the line
as to what you're not admitting.

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So there are people and they 
they were successful in 

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Rotherham and they were 
successful in Ballymena and 

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they're who they were hoping to 
be successful in Epping, who are

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not saying let's get the council
to petition the government to 

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change the policy on the hotels.
They're saying let's make it so 

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dangerous that people flee. 
I mean, let's make the 

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government the new. 
People no, it, no, it is. 

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And I think what we've got, 
we've come to this point where 

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when people say there's 
legitimate concerns, you've got 

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a whole group of I mean, they're
calling them the lanyard class 

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now or, you know, the the middle
class left or the, you know, I 

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call them the bourgeois left who
are now sort of, you know, 

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they're not allowing people to 
have legitimate concerns when 

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you say legitimate concerns, 
like it's almost like you're 

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Enoch Powell. 
You know, so we, we've closed 

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down that whole Ave. of debate 
and I'll tell you now that point

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of, you know, where perhaps five
years ago people were saying, 

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you know, perhaps illegal 
migration needs to be, you know,

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looked at now they are saying 
send everybody back. 

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I think because there's a lack 
of trust with our government, 

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with politicians, with the 
media, they're they're actually 

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gonna deal with these legitimate
concerns. 

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So instead, you know, 
everybody's being 40, not power,

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I think. 
There's a problem with the 

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concept. 
Actually, it's a very distancing

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concept, which is. 
I do not share your legitimate 

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concerns, but I respect them. 
It does feel quite it does. 

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Feel quite. 
Far apart, but actually, you 

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know, this government is very 
clear that it's that it's, it's 

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so concerned in a way to not 
criticise people's right to 

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protest asylum, hotels and so on
that it risks actually not doing

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the other half of the argument, 
which is to say there's also 

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racism and prejudice as part of 
this. 

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And we need to make that 
separation because we're going 

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to listen to the mainstream 
argument, but we're not 

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actually. 
But how do you make that 

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distinct that? 
I think ultimately if you look 

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back to last year and how 
intense it was, a lot of people 

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have forgotten with time, but it
was very, very intense. 

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It wasn't just intense for the 
immigration centres and the 

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mosques which were targeted, but
it was also intense for 

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everybody in society. 
We saw our city centres smashed 

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up, we saw children's services, 
libraries smashed up, we saw 

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lots of towns in absolute chaos 
and that affects everybody and I

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don't think anybody in society 
wants to go back to where we. 

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Were but that is actually what 
happens when people riot that I 

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mean, that's that that's also 
the normal shape of a riot that 

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people do smash up their own 
communities. 

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There's a criminological concept
for this. 

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It's called slow rioting. 
It's what happens when the state

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has removed themselves from your
community and you, you can't get

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at the people or the state 
that's causing new problems. 

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I mean, we were there for you. 
And what what Lisa, I think is 

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rightly saying is that is that 
that broader oxygen, not the 

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violence itself, but the broader
oxygen is, is based on people 

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feeling unheard. 
If you want to make that 

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distinction, there are actually 
some really important ways to do

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it. 1 is, is it peaceful? 
Is it violent? 

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Is it threatening? 
Another really good test I think

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in the society we're in now is 
if you've got legitimate 

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concerns, could somebody white, 
working class, somebody Asian, 

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somebody back share those 
concerns? 

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Or are they the concerns only of
one but? 

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Can I just ask you, you as 
someone you know you're in a 

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mosque when the rioters headed 
towards you, are you ever in 

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that moment thinking any of 
these concerns are legitimate? 

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00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,640
So what I found on the night of 
the riots when people were 

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outside our mosque is when I 
stepped over the police lines 

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00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,960
after we confirmed with the 
police that it was safe to do 

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so, and I started speaking with 
the protesters. 

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00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,840
More important than speaking to 
them was listening to them. 

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Then people did share some of 
their concerns with me. 

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A lot of those concerns were 
based on on ignorance and, and 

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00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,840
and falsehoods. 
However I was listening. 

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I'll, I'll give you one example,
one gentleman, probably the 

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00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,880
loudest person at the protest. 
I asked him, why exactly are you

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00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,880
here at our mosque? 
You know, what's this got to do 

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00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,200
with anything? 
He said we're fed up with two 

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00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,240
tier policing. 
To which I said to him, well, 

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why not take the protest to the 
police station then? 

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You know, what does this have to
do with us? 

228
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:02,200
But the point is, I think there 
is an argument for saying that 

229
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,320
many members of the white 
British working class people 

230
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,200
need to be heard. 
I don't think their voices are 

231
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,520
represented. 
And this, this is an issue. 

232
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,040
I think they're not represented 
or very rarely represented 

233
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,760
properly within politics. 
And I don't think the 

234
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,080
politicians are listening to 
them. 

235
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,320
And unfortunately me and my 
mosque and my community have to 

236
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,440
put up with these protests and 
these riots when actually what 

237
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,200
they are upset with are 
decisions which are ultimately. 

238
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,920
But if you're burning down or 
trying to burn down a hotel 

239
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,520
that's got asylum seekers and 
can there ever be anything other

240
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,600
than racist? 
No, I mean, I'm going to be 

241
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,120
honest. 
No, I mean it can also, but you 

242
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,680
know, it can also be not a 
racist intent, but then it it 

243
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:46,320
does become but. 
We're targeting asylum people in

244
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:47,880
a hotel. 
It's just racist, isn't it? 

245
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,760
Yes, it yes it is. 
But, you know, I have spoken to 

246
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,600
people that have that have been 
around, sort of have been 

247
00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,000
thinking about doing this sort 
of thing. 

248
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:04,200
And again, are they trying to 
kill the people inside or are 

249
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,440
they trying to get rid of the 
problem? 

250
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:10,200
And I think sometimes when when 
we've moved over that step of 

251
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,200
reasonableness and an argument 
and debate and we've moved into 

252
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,640
that step of civil disorder and 
riot, you know, things are not 

253
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,400
always as clear. 
And Adam is absolutely right. 

254
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,000
The Muslim community last year 
had to deal with the fact that 

255
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,480
that there is no there's very 
little representation for all 

256
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,520
poor working class. 
People but but if they are 

257
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,480
targeting you, you, you take a 
very generous view. 

258
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,240
Some people might say, some of 
the Muslim communities that I've

259
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,480
spoken to would not take such a 
generous view that if a mob is 

260
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,160
headed towards you to try and 
throw stones or or or damage 

261
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,080
your mosque shouting things that
are really offensive that are 

262
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,200
out and out racist, then that 
does that delegitimize anything 

263
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,920
that you may have started with 
the intent that you talked 

264
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,120
about? 
I mean, yes, I mean, of course 

265
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,840
it it does delegitimize it 
because you what you've done it.

266
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,040
Also puts people at danger. 
You put people. 

267
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,840
In danger, I mean. 
Well, I am a white working class

268
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,120
woman. 
I wasn't. 

269
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,600
I wasn't called white and 
working class until about 2000. 

270
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,040
That was always working class 
and that is where that's where 

271
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,080
you know, where the problem is. 
About 20 to five years ago, you 

272
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,520
know, we decided that there were
divisions between working class 

273
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,080
people and you know, and we've 
done that through box ticking 

274
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,840
and through. 
And so I don't want to be white 

275
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,720
and working class. 
I want to be working class and I

276
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,880
want all working class people. 
But the very distinction does 

277
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,920
suit some people who don't want 
black or brown people within the

278
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,840
you who don't consider them the 
same. 

279
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,000
Yes, and that's on and that's on
many different levels. 

280
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,760
You know, I'm, I'm with Adam 
really I, I'd like to, you know,

281
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,880
for us all to come together, all
working class people. 

282
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,240
And this is a class issue about 
inequality. 

283
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,960
It's under coming. 
I think we've got to make some 

284
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,160
distinctions here. 
They're very different 

285
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,480
experiences of change in our 
society. 

286
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,240
I've had a positive experience 
of change in my society in my 

287
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,600
lifetime because I'm the child 
of migrants. 

288
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,920
I did well in education. 
If you're, you know, there are 

289
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,600
lots of people, first, second 
generation British minorities, 

290
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,520
women in workplaces, people who 
are gay who have had a positive 

291
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,960
experience of change, they're 
very much more negative 

292
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,040
experience of change between the
cities and the townspeople feel 

293
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,560
unheard in the townspeople feel 
unheard from working class 

294
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,480
backgrounds. 
People who haven't, you know, 

295
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,240
got many degrees feel, feel 
unheard. 

296
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,040
That is very different from the 
people who are trying to get all

297
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,920
the Muslims and all the asylum 
seekers out there. 

298
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,040
About one in 50 people in our 
country were elated by the 

299
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,160
violence, not because they fear 
a civil war, but because they're

300
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,800
rather hoping for one. 
So I think, I think policing and

301
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,760
telling that group what is 
unacceptable and then cutting 

302
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,640
them off from maybe 1/4 of 
society, 1/3 of society, 40% of 

303
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,200
society. 
They've got things to say in the

304
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,720
political system about 
immigration, asylum, 

305
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,800
integration. 
That's a crucial distinction to 

306
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,440
make. 
Otherwise, this language about 

307
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,800
legitimate concerns doesn't cut 
out the racism, the violence, 

308
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:18,040
the. 
Threat. 

309
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,840
So, so, so in, in Liverpool we 
actually saw a manifestation of 

310
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,520
what what you've just described 
when it was the LFC parade 

311
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,680
through the city centre, there 
was somebody who rammed into a 

312
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,200
crowd full of people. 
I was actually at the parade, I 

313
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:37,040
left before the incident itself 
and I was looking online because

314
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,960
unfortunately, because of the 
way things work, people will go 

315
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,560
straight to X before they go to 
any legitimate or kind of 

316
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,600
credible source of information. 
And they'll see they want to 

317
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,720
know right then, right now 
what's happening as happened in 

318
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,720
Southport. 
And what I was seeing was 

319
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,040
unfortunately, people who were 
not bothered at all about the 

320
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,200
the people who were injured in 
the attack all they wanted. 

321
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,240
And it's like they were 
desperate for the driver of the 

322
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,160
car to be either an immigrant or
an asylum seeker or a Muslim. 

323
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,160
And when it when it occurred 
later on that he wasn't, it was 

324
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,319
almost as if they were 
disappointed because they 

325
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:22,680
couldn't push for this narrative
to be enforced and and this this

326
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,599
racist agenda, if you like. 
Yeah. 

327
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,680
I mean, what I, I'd also say is 
you're sort of talking about the

328
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,960
police or the government telling
somebody, you know, that this is

329
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,160
unacceptable, but who is telling
the police and who is telling 

330
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,880
the government that what they 
are doing is unacceptable as 

331
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,120
well? 
Because I think that's where 

332
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,040
we've got a problem, is this 
idea that, you know, some people

333
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,320
are legitimately telling us 
what's acceptable and what isn't

334
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,680
and yet nobody is holding the 
people to account that's making 

335
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,960
the decisions that is causing 
these divisions, the hotels 

336
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:56,800
since. 
They can. 

337
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,040
Stand back, I think. 
They can look at people 

338
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,920
protesting and fighting outside 
asylum seeker hotels and say 

339
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,480
this is nothing to do. 
With us and they can put lots of

340
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,160
memes about poor white working 
class people all over social 

341
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,520
media. 
You know, there, there. 

342
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,560
I, I remember last year at 
Southport, I remember people 

343
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,160
laughing openly, taking 
photographs of, of the 

344
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,920
television and saying, look at 
the state of these people's 

345
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,160
teeth. 
You know, that is what happens 

346
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,960
when there are no dentists. 
That's what happens when 

347
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,240
people's health has deteriorated
over generations. 

348
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,920
They look ill. 
But the difficulty? 

349
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,760
Is something positive about what
the police were doing in Epping,

350
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,720
which became the epicentre? 
There was a, you know, a sexual 

351
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,320
assault, a charge or a serious 
sexual assault. 

352
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,280
There was protests, there was 
concern. 

353
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,400
They did a really good job, I 
think, of saying what you were 

354
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,920
allowed to do if you're a anti 
hotel protester, if you're a 

355
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,480
left wing protester and what you
weren't allowed to do. 

356
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,800
And they said no one's going to 
wear any, no one's going to have

357
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,880
face masks on when they're 
making their points. 

358
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,800
If you do that, then you can be 
tough on disorder, but that's 

359
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,400
different from being tough on 
the causes. 

360
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,040
But in, in, in a way, the hotels
and the issue about the safety 

361
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,840
of women and children, which is 
what some people are saying this

362
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,720
is about it. 
It's quite interesting, isn't 

363
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,560
it? 
You know, it's being framed as, 

364
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,320
as you wrote yourself, you know 
hundreds of unknown unvetted 

365
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,720
single men being housed in their
communities. 

366
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,440
I suppose women and girls are 
surrounded by unvetted unknown 

367
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,720
men. 
We know the dangers that men 

368
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,880
pose to women. 
Is it legitimate to target one 

369
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:40,360
particular group of men in an 
asylum seekers hotel? 

370
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,360
I think now, I think that now it
has become legitimate because, 

371
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,760
you know, for many, many years 
people have been complaining 

372
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,760
about the government's dispersal
programme. 

373
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,440
It's been going, this has been 
happening in a long time, you 

374
00:19:53,440 --> 00:20:00,080
know, refugees and asylum 
seekers who are poor themselves 

375
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,760
and are coming from all over the
world with different 

376
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,560
backgrounds. 
They've been put into the 

377
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,240
poorest communities now for at 
least 25 years. 

378
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,280
I mean. 
That is the fact that. 

379
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,000
There are. 
More asylum seekers and refugees

380
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,400
dispersed to poorer parts. 
Yeah, and I've made this all. 

381
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,040
I mean, it's only very recently 
that different governments have 

382
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,880
decided to put more resources 
into those areas. 

383
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:25,000
At one point, there was no extra
resources and the whole 

384
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,160
community had to share the 
little that they got. 

385
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,200
That was legitimate concern. 
But the but to the to the very 

386
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:36,400
specific point about we know the
danger that men pose to to women

387
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,320
and girls. 
You know, Wayne Cousins was was 

388
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,000
vetted and was given enough 
authority to have a police 

389
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,280
uniform to go out and and and 
and kill and rape. 

390
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,880
Is it legitimate in say in your,
in your view, Adam, to use that 

391
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:59,120
to focus it in as the reason for
what is happening around the 

392
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:02,680
hotels? 
Is it a legitimate concern or is

393
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,720
it being used as? 
I think the big mistake where 

394
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,400
we're all making here is we're 
referring to groups of people 

395
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,400
and we're stripping them of 
their humanity. 

396
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,640
And I think all sides are guilty
by the way we're stripping them 

397
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,560
of their humanity. 
So whether that's the white 

398
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,800
British working class or whether
that's the far right or whether 

399
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,560
that's asylum seekers, don't 
forget there are real people 

400
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,320
behind these groups which we 
have in our in our heads. 

401
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,480
And sometimes all we need to do 
is sit down with these people, 

402
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,000
meet each other, learn about 
each other, and you'll discover 

403
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,760
that the other side aren't 
necessarily the monsters which 

404
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,000
you think they are. 
And as I said, and this applies 

405
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,440
to all sides, because on the 
night of the riots in Liverpool,

406
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,920
many people in the Muslim 
community were saying to me, no,

407
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,720
why are you cooking food for 
these people? 

408
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,360
You can't speak to these people.
They want to kill you. 

409
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,720
They want to burn your Moss down
and they want to send all 

410
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,200
Muslims out of the country. 
And I was like, no, they're, 

411
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,640
they're, they're people. 
And if we're from a religious or

412
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,160
a spiritual perspective, we have
to see the other as a soul. 

413
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,520
And what I have been doing since
last year's riots is I've been 

414
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,360
sitting down building 
friendships with some of the 

415
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:11,760
heavyweights who were at the 
Save Our Children protest, for 

416
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,160
example. 
And I've been allowing them to 

417
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,920
see who I and my community are 
as people. 

418
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,080
And likewise we've been meeting 
with them. 

419
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,960
We've been taking young people 
to gyms who are running 

420
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,400
different parts of the city 
where they'd never usually be. 

421
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,040
We've been on walks into the 
Welsh countryside together. 

422
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,640
And guess what? 
Everybody realizes that they're 

423
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,720
human beings. 
We have families who we care 

424
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,280
for. 
We all suffer from the cost of 

425
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,240
living crisis. 
We all get bills from the tax 

426
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,400
man which we don't like, and all
of these problems which are 

427
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,880
pushed out there in these 
narratives, they're problems 

428
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,800
which affect us as well, believe
it or not. 

429
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,160
And so why don't we do something
radical? 

430
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,840
Why don't we start working 
together to solve these issues? 

431
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,960
Because we have volunteers in 
our community. 

432
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,120
You obviously have a lot of very
passionate people about these 

433
00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:59,000
issues. 
Why don't we come together and 

434
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,800
solve? 
Them gone beyond doing this sort

435
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,000
of thing on the ground. 
I think, I think you have to do 

436
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,240
more of that, not less of it. 
And there's a hope and there's a

437
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,600
catharsis if you felt unheard in
being unheard. 

438
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,600
And obviously if you're a, if 
you're a person of faith, then 

439
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,440
you want to save every soul. 
But I think what's powerful 

440
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,800
about what Adam's saying is, you
know, there's a principle that 

441
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,840
you take in good faith, 
everything said in good faith. 

442
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:24,640
And if something isn't said in 
good faith, you try and engage 

443
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,000
with it as if it was. 
And then there is going to be. 

444
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,640
Just one little point, it's it's
not about saving souls, it's 

445
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,400
about seeing the other person as
a human. 

446
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,800
So even if you don't agree on on
your religious views and 

447
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,800
beliefs, you at least understand
they're a human and and deserve 

448
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,280
to be treated with dignity and. 
Respect change. 

449
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,920
What you would say that's 
structural? 

450
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,240
In A and then The thing is, is 
we can all see each other as 

451
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,640
human. 
And then what? 

452
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,960
Because there is a point that 
we've got to hold the people who

453
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,960
are making the decisions where 
there is a group of people at 

454
00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:00,240
the bottom who are, you know, 
working class people are not 

455
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,800
just white, working class people
are Muslim, working class people

456
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,000
are black. 
You know, there are groups of 

457
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,320
people in this country who are 
making decisions where those 

458
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,800
people's lives are now in 
decline and have been for a long

459
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,000
time. 
So we have to make so, so it's, 

460
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,120
I kind of agree with you. 
It's really lovely for us to be 

461
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:24,920
human and think about all of it.
But how do we make sure that our

462
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,200
kids end up with a decent job 
and somewhere to. 

463
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,200
I I agree with you, but I don't 
think the police to protest that

464
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,600
is outside the mosque or 
outside. 

465
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:33,080
The. 
Hotel. 

466
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,080
And no, neither do and. 
There's a key distinction that 

467
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,280
comes out of that, I think, 
which is that I can, I can talk 

468
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,360
you out of your fear or 
prejudice or hatred of the 

469
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,240
other. 
If you don't know that person, I

470
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,800
can't talk you out of your sense
that there aren't fair chances 

471
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,480
for you and your kids and other 
people's kids. 

472
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,960
I need action and work there. 
But it's not. 

473
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,600
So the socio economic factors 
and the cultural identity 

474
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,920
factors, they, they overlap. 
The left tends to think it's all

475
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,000
just economics. 
You know, if we built enough 

476
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,880
hospitals with young enough 
schools, we wouldn't have that. 

477
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,880
It's not true. 
You know, fear and hatred of 

478
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,160
Muslims goes all the way up and 
all the way down. 

479
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,880
But so so it's separate, 
creating out in a way the 

480
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,680
concerns about opportunities, 
chance and discrimination from 

481
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,200
the fear of. 
The other, the thing that's 

482
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,000
interesting about the current 
moment we appear to be in, when 

483
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,120
we were in Middlesbrough, for 
example, white working class 

484
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,920
people were saying they had real
concerns about the state of 

485
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,120
their housing. 
They have concerns about 

486
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,000
poverty, their concerns about 
the cost of living. 

487
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,440
But when you go round the corner
to the houses of people whose 

488
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,200
windows were smashed in, who 
were immigrants, their concerns 

489
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,400
are exactly the same. 
Yeah. 

490
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,680
But it's not seeing that. 
Yeah. 

491
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,280
And how, how do you do that 
structurally? 

492
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,480
How do you do that through 
government? 

493
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,960
Because reaching out may not be 
enough. 

494
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,200
I'm, I'm a, I'm a firm believer 
in, in little things with big 

495
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,000
intentions having big impact. 
And so to, I'll give you one 

496
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,360
example. 
We at the Light Foundation, we 

497
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,800
had an event, this is years 
before the, the, the riots and 

498
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,280
we were talking about Islamic 
Sharia, which so many people 

499
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:08,680
online have so much to say 
about. 

500
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,920
So we had this event and members
of far right groups, Football 

501
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,640
Lads Alliance, EDL, when it was 
a thing back in the day, they 

502
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,120
turned up and one particular 
gentleman came in with a T-shirt

503
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,360
with a picture of Enoch Powell 
on it saying Enoch was right. 

504
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,280
He, he, at the beginning of, of 
our event, he was shouting that 

505
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,320
there's only one law in this 
country and it's Christian law. 

506
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,280
And then after the, the, the 
kind of tensions settled, we had

507
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,640
our discussion, we listened to 
each other and then we had food 

508
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,440
afterwards. 
And he came up to me and he 

509
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,240
said, you know what, I wish all 
Muslims were like you. 

510
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,360
And I explained to him, well, 
actually a lot of them, the vast

511
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,960
majority of them are like me. 
And we took him out for a meal 

512
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,640
after this, after the event, he 
came for a kebab with us. 

513
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,200
Then we went to a dessert 
parlour. 

514
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,520
We were talking, he was sharing 
his life story. 

515
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,880
If you'd have walked into that 
dessert parlour, you would have 

516
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:01,480
thought this guy was one of our 
close friends. 

517
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,360
He started crying. 
He started crying tears after he

518
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:08,640
he said to us, nobody has ever 
treated me this kindly all my 

519
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,000
life. 
And I was shocked. 

520
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,480
We bought the guy a kebab and he
broke down in tears. 

521
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,000
And one thing I learnt from 
that, and it's just been 

522
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,480
confirmed time after time after 
time, is the people who manifest

523
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,880
the most hatred are usually 
upset with themselves more than 

524
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,200
anybody else. 
And sometimes all you need you 

525
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,520
can talk about changing 
government. 

526
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,720
Such as? 
I. 

527
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:29,680
Don't. 
Just one last point. 

528
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,560
You can talk about changing 
government structures. 

529
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,720
I'm telling you, just a hug or a
smile. 

530
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,000
Yeah, or a nice gesture. 
You can call me wishy Washy. 

531
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,840
We stopped the riots in 
Liverpool last year. 

532
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,440
It worked. 
Everybody was against me, even 

533
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,920
many people within the house. 
When you have hundreds of people

534
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,520
heading. 
I agree most that would. 

535
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,160
Break how? 
Burn down houses? 

536
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,200
That's not going to work, is it?
No, you know what? 

537
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,200
Take away. 
So if we start to think about 

538
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,280
how angry should somebody be? 
So the fact that someone's lives

539
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,120
are over generations have 
declined and declined and this 

540
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,160
is all of us. 
This is not white working class.

541
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,080
This is all of us. 
That your kids now have got 

542
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,000
absolutely no chance of probably
even renting anywhere to live. 

543
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,840
There is a righteous anger there
and you should be angry about 

544
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,240
that because. 
They're and our community can be

545
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,760
angry together with. 
Yeah, but that's what I'm 

546
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,320
saying, all of us. 
Very often those communities are

547
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,800
not angry together, are they? 
And these? 

548
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,080
Right, I don't know, I think if.
That's not helping. 

549
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,720
What are they? 
I don't know. 

550
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,920
Let's speak out to. 
Let's speak out to people and 

551
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,280
say how who is angry that their 
kids are no longer going to 

552
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,240
probably be able to even rent a 
house? 

553
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,760
Everybody, everybody's angry 
about that. 

554
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,880
So I think that's a righteous 
anger. 

555
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,840
I think, I think it's 
interesting your example of the 

556
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,800
Enoch was right. 
I mean, my father comes to 

557
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,640
Britain the week after that 
speech by Enoch Powell. 

558
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,680
What what that speech is saying 
is saying, well, he should stay 

559
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,280
in Gujarat or he should go back.
But what it's really saying is 

560
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,120
Sundercat Waller should never be
born in Britain because people 

561
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,760
like Sundercat Waller or Kenny 
Baden or Co, anyone else, they 

562
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,920
will never be us. 
They will always be them and us.

563
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,920
And I think we have this, them 
and us debate. 

564
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,040
They are a threat to us, they 
will never be us. 

565
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,880
They are taking our stuff and 
the left tends to come back with

566
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,840
but they are good for us. 
You don't realise it's all going

567
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,520
to go well. 
The question is how do people 

568
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,960
become US? 
And that's where I think there 

569
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,760
is hope in this catharsis, this 
ability to feel. 

570
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,800
We're running out of time and I 
just want to to ask you, Lisa, 

571
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,680
you have a Labour government at 
the moment, a very, very 

572
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,720
different Labour government, 
they would say, much more 

573
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,160
representative of, of, of the 
wider country, they would say. 

574
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,120
Angela Rayner understands what 
it's like to grow up on 

575
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,360
benefits. 
Bridget Phillipson says her, you

576
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,240
know, determination to to talk 
about child poverty is because 

577
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,760
of what she experienced growing 
up. 

578
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,600
What difference will any of that
make? 

579
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,600
And if it's not making a 
difference, why do you think 

580
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,720
it's not? 
They're talking about £1.5 

581
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,520
billion to regenerate 
neighborhoods, 39 billion for 

582
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,360
new affordable homes. 
And we know housing is an issue 

583
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,560
across the board. 
Yeah. 

584
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,080
I mean, we've, this is 40 years 
in the making. 

585
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,720
This is not, this is not one 
year from Southport. 

586
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,480
Last year, you know, when I talk
about the, when people look like

587
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,600
the miners strike, the miners 
strike was one year, but 

588
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,280
actually the decline of those 
communities has been 40 years 

589
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,480
and things aren't going to open 
happen overnight. 

590
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,160
But people do need some hope. 
So we do need that, that there's

591
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,080
got to be hope for people. 
I'm not, I don't even know how 

592
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,720
that happens, that I'm living in
a part of the country which is 

593
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,160
Nottinghamshire. 
I come from Ashfield, where 

594
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,200
people are absolutely hopeless. 
You know, they, they, they're 

595
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,320
cynical, they're hopeless, 
they're anger. 

596
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,200
I don't know anymore what what 
we can do about that. 

597
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,920
I mean, Andy MacDonald, the MP 
for Middlesbrough, told us that 

598
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,880
you can have all those justified
grievances, particularly in 

599
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,080
parts of the country that where 
we know poverty has really got a

600
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,200
grip, that that those years of 
underinvestment, but that at the

601
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,240
moment immigration is being seen
as the one single reason that 

602
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,880
that, yeah, is too easy. 
Yeah, I think when it when it 

603
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,960
comes to political parties and 
politicians, I think we need to 

604
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,440
be careful not not to be dragged
into their into their 

605
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,360
narratives. 
Just as an example, I had a 

606
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,120
close meet in a private meeting 
with the chair of a particular 

607
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,920
party, which is very anti 
immigration. 

608
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,280
And this was in a particular 
part of of the country. 

609
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,600
And he said to me when he was 
canvassing for voters, the 

610
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,360
number one concern which was 
being raised time and time again

611
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,160
was immigration. 
And I asked him, is that the 

612
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,960
same for you and your party? 
He said, actually it's probably 

613
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,360
#3 it's still important to us, 
but it's #3 but that is not 

614
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,160
reflected in their campaigns. 
It's not reflected in what they 

615
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,600
say they're going to do for 
people. 

616
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:53,800
Very briefly, there's a. 
Danger. 

617
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,040
Both. 
Just for the people to bring it 

618
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,720
to an end. 
Fortunately, what's happened is 

619
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,720
people has wrapped up 
immigration with housing, with 

620
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,720
cost of living crisis. 
They've wrapped it up. 

621
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,840
It doesn't. 
It doesn't belong together. 

622
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,840
But because for so long now 
nobody's been tackling any of 

623
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,680
those issues, people have now 
made their. 

624
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:10,920
Own. 
I agree it's a complete package.

625
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,080
People have have got made their 
own narrative. 

626
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,440
I think one reason we have a 
skewed debate that's too 

627
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,160
pessimistic even in the very 
stretched times we're in, is 

628
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,480
that integration, when it 
happens, is invisible. 

629
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,480
Where it's the social class 
background of the cabinet, 

630
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,000
whether it's diversity in the 
parliament, when it works, 

631
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,400
whether it's class mobility when
it works and where it's failing,

632
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,760
it sticks like a sort of thumb. 
So that, I think is why we we in

633
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,720
a sense, talk ourselves into a 
doom loop when there's a lot of 

634
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,480
pressure and a lot of challenge.
But we need some grounds for 

635
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,120
hope, too. 
Going to have to end it there, 

636
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,360
but Doctor Lisa McKenzie, Sundar
Katwala and Adam Kelwick. 

637
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,840
Kelwick, thank you very much for
joining us. 

638
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,120
That is it for this episode of 
The FORECAST. 

639
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,680
Until next time, goodbye.