1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,000 The ceasefire is not precarious, is non existent. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Why are these people being killed? 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,280 I'm telling you because this is the genocide that continues 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,960 through other means. Israel has 0 intention to 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,440 relinquish control of the Gaza Strip. 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,240 So what has been sold to the world as the peace plan is a way 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,600 to push the international community to have an alibi not 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,120 to continue to engage with Gaza. Governments are complicit it. 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,080 Hasn't the last two years proven that for most world governments, 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,960 international law is not super? They believe in real politic, in 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,840 workable solutions. Are you in danger of making 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:44,760 perfection the enemy of the good? 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:51,280 That's so scary. Hello and welcome to the 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,800 forecast. Phase one of the ceasefire in 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,480 Gaza is holding, but it's precarious. 16 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,080 Hundreds of Gazans have been killed since it began. 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,000 Hundreds of thousands remain homeless and displaced. 18 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,280 The Israeli Defence Force still occupies much of the territory 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,040 and Hamas have re established themselves in some areas. 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,560 So is Phase 2, with its transitional authority and 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,240 international peace Force, looking in any real way 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,480 possible? Benjamin Netanyahu says it's 23 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,920 close. But if it is, where does that 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,680 leave the rights of the Palestinians? 25 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,280 Francesca Albanese is the UN special rapporteur on the 26 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,080 occupied Palestinian territories. 27 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,240 She has been an outspoken critic of Israel's actions in Gaza, 28 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,120 accusing it of genocide since we last spoke. 29 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,280 She has been sanctioned by the Trump administration and has 30 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,960 published a new report on the complicity of much of the 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,880 outside world. Welcome and thank you for coming 32 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:42,040 back. Thank you, Krishnan. 33 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,600 The last time we spoke, you, you, you did speak a great deal 34 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,520 about complicity, but now you have written a a more formal 35 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,600 report about it. You know the world wants to move 36 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,640 on is the truth, doesn't it? They want to get on with the 37 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,560 peace process. With phase two, there isn't a 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,840 great desire to go back and examine what happened in the 39 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,600 past, but you're not going to let them move on. 40 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,520 No, no, I'm not going to let them off the hook because the I 41 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,600 understand that there is a great deal of interest in moving 42 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:15,920 forward. I think that the Palestinians 43 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:19,280 are the first to want to move forward, and I would be the 44 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:23,080 happiest not to have to document acts of genocide on a daily 45 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,040 basis. But The thing is that the 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,420 ceasefire is not, if you allow me, it's not precarious, is non 47 00:02:30,420 --> 00:02:33,280 existent. You know, since the the day the 48 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,000 ceasefire was proclaimed, nearly 400 Palestinians have been 49 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,320 killed by the Israeli army in Gaza. 50 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:47,000 Israel has committed over 707 hundred violations of the 51 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:52,720 ceasefire. It remains in over 50% of the 52 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,800 Gaza Strip. It continues to demolish homes 53 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:02,520 to to pulverize what remains and what is more sadistic to 54 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:08,600 withhold aid 1/4 of what had been agreed as part of the 55 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,920 ceasefire, the so-called ceasefire as Hunter entered the 56 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:15,880 Gaza Strip. And I I really encourage 57 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,520 everyone who's listening to us try to Google any mage of Gaza 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,440 today. There are nearly 2 million of 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,880 survivors, genocide survivors, war survivors, whatever you want 60 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,760 to call them, who are literally literally in the storm without 61 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,880 anything to protect them. There is no shelter like a make 62 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,240 destroyed makeshift tents and they and the Gaza is is flooded. 63 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,120 There is a storm, a Byron storm which is hitting Gaza and these 64 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:50,280 people are led to die starving and freezing if not killed by 65 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,000 Israeli bombs. So where is the ceasefire? 66 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,360 I don't know. I mean, I suppose the argument 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,920 is that it's, it's, it's not at the intensity that it was. 68 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,400 The level of killing isn't as high as it was and more aid is 69 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,160 getting in and there is some political progress. 70 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,160 I mean, do you at least agree that things are better than they 71 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,120 were at the beginning of October? 72 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,480 If you're asking me a tough question because, you know, I 73 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:26,320 mean, if we had 24 British people killed every day, would 74 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:33,280 it be OK for you instead of 100? It's not OK to me because why 75 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:36,360 are these people dying? Why are these people being 76 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,720 killed? I'm telling you because this is 77 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,600 the genocide that continues through other means. 78 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:47,280 Israel has 0 intention to relinquish control of the Gaza 79 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,520 Strip. So what has been sold to the 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,760 world as the as the peace plan, which other is nothing else than 81 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:01,040 a 20 point thought bubble as Commissioner Sidoti has defined, 82 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,200 it is a way to push the international community to have 83 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,080 an alibi, not to continue to engage with Gaza. 84 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:13,240 But if Israel wants to continue the expulsion of Palestinians 85 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,040 from there, because this is the last attempt, the last chance 86 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,160 they have to regain control over Gaza. 87 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,960 And we should also be talking of what's going on in the West. 88 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,960 What do you mean by question? Because you have said Israel is 89 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,960 continuing the ethnic cleansing of of of Gaza. 90 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,640 What do you mean by that? Who is being expelled? 91 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:31,840 Where are they going? What? 92 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:33,440 What? What is the ethnic cleansing 93 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,920 beyond the killing? I accept that there is killing 94 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,080 going on. Yeah, there is. 95 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,000 There is killings. But I've said that in the 96 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,040 pursuit of this desire of ethnically cleanse what remains 97 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,160 of historical Palestine, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and E 98 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:53,720 Jerusalem, Israel has committed acts of genocide and using the 99 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,400 fog of war as an excuse. And now the ceasefire risks 100 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,200 allowing Israel to continue where the harshest face of the 101 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,800 genocide has not allowed it to to do because the Palestinians 102 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,240 have not left. Now with the storms, with the 103 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,280 with the freezing weather, without food, without shelter, 104 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,880 Israel is opening the Rafa border, telling Palestinians you 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,680 can go out, but you cannot come in again. 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,280 So this is again, it's in line with the trajectory that has 107 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:30,160 started in the 50s of Israel, encouraging what even that 108 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,640 minister Bang Veer calls voluntary migration. 109 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,080 There is nothing. Being voluntary is really one of 110 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:41,080 the most sadistic and international international 111 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,800 community backed forms of crimes that I've seen in my in my 112 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,840 lifetime. But there isn't there some 113 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:50,880 political progress? I mean, there is a process now 114 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,560 towards phase two, which is about creating a Palestinian 115 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,080 committee with international supervision with Palestinians 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,200 involved. People are people are now 117 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,240 starting to say it may actually have some representation from 118 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,960 the Palestinian Authority, which was something that was said it 119 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,520 they said it wouldn't have before. 120 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,760 So this is the beginning once again, isn't it, of a 121 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,720 Palestinian voice and Palestinian control over their 122 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,360 own affairs? I mean, isn't there a hopeful 123 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:27,280 way to look at progress as well? I don't want to sound like the 124 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,840 grumpy one who's never happy about anything because this is 125 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,520 not the case. I'm just someone who knows the 126 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,560 history. I mean, I've heard these 127 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,080 arguments at the end of the first intifada when the peace 128 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,520 process started with the Oslo Accords. 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,240 The Oslo Accords were saluted by everyone, including the 130 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:50,160 Palestinians, as a stepping or a building block of enduring 131 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,120 peace. Have you seen any day of that 132 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:53,640 for of peace for the Palestinians? 133 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,000 No, because the the World Peace has been used to distract people 134 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,720 from what was going on the enduring occupation. 135 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,400 And let me comment on the on the peace plan, which have been 136 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,880 quite together with other independent experts and human 137 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,240 rights organizations have been quite critical of. 138 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,040 And for me, it's very tough because now this this plan is 139 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,240 incorporated in Aun Security Council resolution. 140 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,440 So I'm really it's a dilemma because UN Security Council 141 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,360 resolution is law, but this is a law that violate basic tenets of 142 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,200 international because you say, yeah, but there is a a 143 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,760 government, there is a transition force, yes. 144 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,440 And look at them. I mean, they are headed by and, 145 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,280 and in basically the decision power is in the end of in the 146 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,440 hands of the United States States, which is the has been 147 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,600 the most significant partners of Israel in the in the genocide. 148 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,560 The Palestinians are brought in as as token as an act of 149 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:54,080 tokenism. There is a violation of the 150 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,240 International Court of Justice decision of July last year, 151 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,440 which orders, and this is for me, the road map to peace. 152 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,880 It orders Israel to withdraw the troops from the occupied, the 153 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,640 entirety of the occupied Palestinian territory, Gaza, the 154 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,600 West Bank and E Jerusalem. No mention of what's going on in 155 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,280 the West Bank. And please let's try to talk 156 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,200 about that later, but also to dismantle the colonies and to 157 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,440 stop using Palestinian resources. 158 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:24,280 This had this been incorporated in the UN Security Council 159 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,680 resolution, I've would have I would have been, but. 160 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:31,600 Israeli withdrawal will come, won't it, If, if, if Phase 2 is 161 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,000 implemented, there will be an international stabilisation 162 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,960 force which will also severely curtail Israel's ability to 163 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,640 continue mounting the strikes that it has been. 164 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,200 I don't see that that peace plan, because that peace plan 165 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,680 refers to demilitarization and the radicalization of the Gaza 166 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:53,560 Strip and Hamas, whatever it is, whatever remains, but not of 167 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:57,160 Israel, which is the state which has killed and and injured 168 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:04,120 nearly 200,000 people and left nearly 2 million to die. 169 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:05,720 What do you mean? Are you suggesting Israel should 170 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,440 be demilitarized? What I'm saying, I'm saying I'm 171 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,760 just say posing another question, why is the occupied 172 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,960 Palestinian territory, which is unlawfully occupied by Israel is 173 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,880 to be demilitarized while there is no, no, this is something 174 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,800 imposed on the Palestinians, which are the oppressed occupied 175 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,280 people. But there is no conditionality 176 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,080 imposed on the unlawful occupier which has committed crimes after 177 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,200 crimes. Israel has just killed. 178 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,120 And these are the numbers that are are ascertained, 70,000 179 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,640 people and there are up to 150,000 who are injured with 180 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,600 life enduring injuries, who I mean, I've seen bodies chopped 181 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,640 into pieces, Krishnan. And this is not something that 182 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,880 can be repaired. So the state which has 183 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,880 devastated the Gaza Strip, which continues to commit violence day 184 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,760 in and day out against the Palestinians in including in the 185 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,640 West Bank, whereas no Hamas, there is no question and no 186 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,960 conditionality about the restraint of military force of 187 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,520 the state. Again, it's a very, it's a very 188 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,400 disproportionate. Plan, it is clearly a 189 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,440 disproportionate plan because it was it was won by military force 190 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,240 ultimately. And, and, you know, in, in, I 191 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,720 suppose in the real world, we have to accept what we can take, 192 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,240 don't we? Vishnan, there was a genocide. 193 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:43,760 How how cynical it is to describe yes, there was military 194 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,880 force, there was unlawful use of force. 195 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,640 That doesn't mean by ongoing for the case this. 196 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:51,960 Is not a situation in which outside world came in and said, 197 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,640 right, break it up, we're going to sort out the future. 198 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,000 This was effectively a military victory by Israel, aided by the 199 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,560 United States. And then the United States said 200 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,520 stop now and enter a political process. 201 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,160 It's more a victory of impunity and lawlessness than military 202 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,080 victory. There has been a huge, huge 203 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,360 resistance inside the occupied Palestinian. 204 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,000 I mean inside occupied Gaza is true. 205 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,760 But the question is, what are the Palestinians supposed to do? 206 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,200 Do the Palestinians have the right to protect themselves, to 207 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,440 defend themselves? Yes or no? 208 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:29,920 According to the way the international community. 209 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,640 Well, but according to international, This is why I say 210 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,640 it's the success of lawlessness, not of military force. 211 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:44,760 This is the, the, the, the, the recognition of might makes right 212 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,000 again, fine. But this is not where I mean, 213 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,160 this is not what would lead to stable and enduring peace. 214 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,080 This is going to lead more violence. 215 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,320 Do you believe that you know, we we should as a international 216 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,400 community be engaging with the process or are you saying the 217 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,400 process is corrupt? Yes, No, I should. 218 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,640 The process should be premised upon respect for international 219 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,920 law. Because, you know, different 220 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,880 countries are engaging with it. The the Arab world has clearly 221 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:19,280 had some success in trying to shape what the the Board of 222 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,480 Peace will be. It looks like Tony Blair is not 223 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,560 going to be taking a leading role on the Board of peace, at 224 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:30,000 least at the moment. So again, in terms of trying to 225 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:36,440 trying to, I accept you think this is a terrible piece, but in 226 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,000 terms of trying to make progress, what do you think are 227 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:44,440 the steps now that's. Should happen I I think well I'm 228 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:51,280 not optimistic because 191 members of the international 229 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,920 community of the United Nations are bending backward in order 230 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,080 they're not to upset the United States and Israel with it. 231 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,280 So it's it's very difficult to enforce international law while 232 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:11,440 one states the United States calls the shot and no one reacts 233 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,280 against it. If, if, if the Saudi Prince MBS 234 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:21,000 is on the Board of Peace, where? Where does that leave the 235 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,560 concept of international human? Rights. 236 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:27,720 Why can't the Palestinians rule themselves? 237 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,800 Is it that that foreign to us, the idea that these people in 238 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:39,600 2025 can be treated as an independent people rather than a 239 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,600 colonial entity? Because this plan re proposes an 240 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,040 anachronistic idea that the Palestinian, the Palestinians, 241 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,680 have to be handled by someone. So you don't believe this plan 242 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,880 would ever lead to self determination? 243 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,120 No, I'm, I'm, I'm certain. I'm certain because there is. 244 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Because if there was an interest in accompanying Palestinians, in 245 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,180 guaranteeing that the Palestinians enjoy their self 246 00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:08,080 determination, and this is key. This is why I insist there would 247 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:14,120 be an adherence, A conformity with what the International 248 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,720 Court of Justice has already decided. 249 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,200 The International Court of Justice. 250 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,160 You remember, Sorry, let me do a, let me make open a 251 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,440 parentheses. Do you remember last time I was 252 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,400 here, we were discussing genocide and you were objecting 253 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,520 that International Court of Justice has not concluded that 254 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,440 there is genocide. And I was saying, yes, but this 255 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,120 doesn't matter because according to international law and the 256 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,240 Genocide Convention, as long as there is is a risk of genocide 257 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,640 or incitement to genocide, something that International 258 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,400 Court of Justice has recognized in January 2024, then the this 259 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,600 is when the obligation to prevent kicks in. 260 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,000 Now we are at the phase where the International Court of 261 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,400 Justice has already pronounced itself saying the occupation is 262 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,000 unlawful and member states cannot aid and assist 263 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,920 economically, financially, militarily, strategically, 264 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,080 politically. These states, So you see, the 265 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:15,120 starting point, should not be what is politically convenient 266 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,440 to the United States, accompanied or not, supported or 267 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,000 not by Arab states. It doesn't matter. 268 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,800 It doesn't matter. What matters is the realization 269 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,520 of the right of self determination of the Palestinian 270 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,280 people. And when they turn around to you 271 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,640 and say, well, OK, but the last time there was an election, they 272 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,280 voted for Hamas, and look where that got us. 273 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,280 What's the answer? I don't think I think that this 274 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,600 is this is not correct. This is a brutal simplification 275 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,200 of matters because when and this is not to defend Hamas or anyone 276 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,480 is just let's again, let's put the Hamas aside because in this 277 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,760 part of the world the the word Hamas generates such an 278 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,920 emotional hysteria that doesn't allow to progress in the 279 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,079 discussion. But there there were no 280 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:10,520 elections until 2005. And back then the Israeli 281 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,400 occupation had been there for many decades, oppressing and 282 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,319 ruling through military rules, the Palestinian governing 283 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,480 through military rules, the Palestinians. 284 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:25,680 So why after the elections there was no acceptance of the vote? 285 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,560 This would not be the first time the international community 286 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,560 didn't agree with an election that opposition from the from 287 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,960 the Western world and Israel was strategic to breakthrough the 288 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,440 the Palestinian secular political component. 289 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,400 And in fact, there are even Israeli commentators and former 290 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:52,480 prime ministers who said that, in fact, Hamas has been used as 291 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,720 an excuse to divert the political attention, or rather 292 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:03,480 the attention from the peace process to a security response. 293 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,520 So Hamas has been a very convenient card that Israel has 294 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,080 pulled to maintain the occupation. 295 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,960 But also look at who the Israelis have voted. 296 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:19,760 You have someone who has Bengavir, Bengavir and Smoltrik. 297 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,240 But even I mean look at the Israeli society keeping in power 298 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,920 people who are wanted by the ICCI mean this is this is called 299 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,560 the self determination, right? So why the Palestinians 300 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,400 shouldn't be able to determine and service and elect whom they 301 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,240 want? Right. 302 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,560 But but if you if you try to hold an election this year, this 303 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,120 coming year, there aren't any political structures or parties 304 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,760 or campaign groups or philosophies that people can 305 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,120 unite around, are they? There's no there's no political 306 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,160 culture around which you can suddenly say, OK, have 307 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,240 democracy. Krishnama, what do you care? 308 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,080 I mean, why do you all of a sudden care for Palestinian 309 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,280 internal self determination? Can we just annoy our? 310 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,680 Business, you're saying why don't we let them determine 311 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,520 themselves? I'm not saying that this is 312 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,480 international law and this has been the case for over 100 313 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,320 years, but. If you say, if you say, OK, 314 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,480 let's deliver that instead of a long transitional peace plan, 315 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,280 which is what is currently being proposed. 316 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,720 Is it practical? It is better, it's legal. 317 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,360 This is the only legal path. And you see this is the. 318 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:27,280 Practicality matters, doesn't? It practicalities matter when a 319 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,160 legal argument are are are distorted in order to 320 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,400 accommodate political convenience. 321 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:39,320 No one cares about the governing abilities of the Palestinians. 322 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,680 No ones. Because no one cares about the 323 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,480 Palestinians for real. Otherwise wise, we wouldn't 324 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,720 leave 2 million people in the abominable conditions they are 325 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,960 today. But I mean, and this may sound 326 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,120 very cynical, but hasn't the last two years proven that for 327 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,240 most world governments, international law is not 328 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,760 supreme? That is not the most important 329 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,320 thing in their minds. They believe in real politic, in 330 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,640 workable solutions. And if that is not in line with 331 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:14,040 international law, well. To an extent I agree with you. 332 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,680 The last two years have proven that not all governments, 333 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,000 because excuse me, there are governments in the global 334 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:28,080 majority, otherwise known as the global S, that have called out 335 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,040 the genocide, that have started to cut ties with Israel, 336 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,400 economic, military and political ties. 337 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,360 So no. So let's reframe it. 338 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:39,040 The last two years have demonstrated that the majority, 339 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,800 not even the totality, otherwise we would visibilize states like 340 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,640 Slovenia and Spain. The majority of Western 341 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,680 governments, primarily yours and mine, are very fine with the 342 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,920 continuous thrashing of international law. 343 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,080 And at the same time, these two years have proven another thing 344 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,880 that you know what, 450 millions of Europeans are not fine with 345 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:02,440 it. And This is why they are 346 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,280 protesting. They are protesting the genocide 347 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:11,520 from universities to to working places and they've been 348 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,440 protesting for over one year now. 349 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,960 And the response of the so-called the liberal 350 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,920 democracies look at this countries is criminalizing 351 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,800 journalist, criminalizing activist or in Germany beating 352 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:29,680 up demonstrators day in and day out or in France preventing 353 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,480 academic conferences to take place. 354 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,840 So, you know, Gaza and Palestine today have put ourselves in 355 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,200 front of a mirror and are telling us who we are as 356 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,120 individuals, as societies. And frankly, look at the Gov 357 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,320 Again, before thinking of what the Palestinians would be ruled 358 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,040 by, look at the governments we have with who have been teaching 359 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,240 and preaching international law and human rights worldwide until 360 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,040 they they were put on a test. We should step out of this 361 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,840 colonial posture. And this is the other thing for 362 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,800 the first time, I mean, if there is one thing that this genocide 363 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:17,000 has LED us to that makes me be optimistic is the awakening. 364 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,320 For the first time there is a global awakening of what 365 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,680 genocide is. It didn't happen with the 366 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,200 genocide in Rwanda. It didn't happen with the 367 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:31,000 genocide and former Yugoslavia. This genocide has provoked a 368 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:36,840 global outcry and doesn't matter how how hard so-called the 369 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:42,800 liberal governments push on their citizens to to obey and 370 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,800 and look away people. People don't bend because they 371 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,600 see the humanity of the other in their own humanity sacrifice in 372 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,000 Gaza. And so maybe maybe things will 373 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,520 change also politically for us, because I want to live in a 374 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,200 system which, which is coherent, where international law is 375 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,200 respected for the Israelis, for the Palestinians, for myself 376 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,440 and, and, and for you. Is it that much to to ask in 377 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,560 2025, Krishnan? Well, I mean, you know, isn't 378 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:20,200 the trouble that you are then in a situation where you say, well, 379 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,560 the law should be supreme and, and it doesn't matter about 380 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,200 whether practicalities mean it's too difficult to deliver. 381 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,800 You get into a very purist position when there is actually 382 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,840 a process that you can engage with that you can try and make 383 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,160 better. You know are are you in danger 384 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,640 of making perfection the enemy of the good? 385 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,640 That's so scary. That's so scary. 386 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,440 Well, well, I mean, it's I suppose. 387 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,640 Maybe it is scary. Maybe it is scary but but but 388 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,720 maybe it's also the reality of where we are. 389 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:04,120 And Krishnan, if you, if someone breaks into your house, you call 390 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:09,080 the police and the police comes and and arrests you instead of 391 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:15,280 the aggressor, wouldn't be, wouldn't you be appalled and 392 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,480 call for others to react and to protect you and to help you? 393 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,760 This is the situation of the Palestinians. 394 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,960 This is the situation of the Palestinians. 395 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,480 And again, I'm not. I mean, for me, it's I, I have 396 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,440 no stake in this other than being a a human rights expert 397 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,920 who's been asked by the United Nations to look at what happens 398 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,280 in nuclear Palestinian territory at the worst possible moment in 399 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,040 history for the Palestinian people. 400 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,240 And I have been the near, I mean, the quasi eyewitness of a 401 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,000 genocide, documenting it day, day after day. 402 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,960 And so, no, I don't think that asking for the application of 403 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,400 basic rules of international law is purism. 404 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,600 Actually, it's pretty basic to preserve peace and stability. 405 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,320 But international law has been defied defied in Israel for 40 406 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,000 years. And maybe this is the end of it. 407 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,680 May this be the end of it, because Israel's propaganda 408 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,120 doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work anymore. 409 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,440 It keeps on you. What makes you? 410 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,680 Think this is the end of it given where we have ended. 411 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,680 Up, I said. Where where in your own analysis 412 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,040 we've ended up in a very pro Israeli peace process? 413 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,840 Yeah, because this is where government, this is because 414 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,560 governments are complicit. Say I documented the level of 415 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:38,760 political, military, financial, economic, diplomatic, strategic 416 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,920 support that 62 states to different extent grant Israel, 417 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,360 which is the reason why the genocide continues, on top of 418 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:53,520 the fact that there are so many businesses and entities, banks, 419 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,320 pension funds that are profiting from it. 420 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,560 Do do you think the the complicity that you have 421 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,560 analysed will ever be called to account and and if so, how? 422 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,280 If human rights lawyers did their job, Oh yes. 423 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,960 So give me an example. I mean you, you in your report, 424 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,720 you take Britain as an example. Yeah, Partly because of the the 425 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,280 flights that were made over Gaza by by military aircraft and the 426 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,720 information that was handed on to them. 427 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:28,720 How do you think that you and you describe that as complicity? 428 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:37,040 How can that ever be prosecuted? Through domestic courts or an 429 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,720 international court, everyone should respect the law and This 430 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,160 is why I think that governments or government official officials 431 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,760 in an ideal world will have to be accountable for what they 432 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,400 have done in supporting the genocide. 433 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:56,200 Look, would you have imagined a Nuremberg trial in 1935 or 434 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,840 193036? Probably not. 435 00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,600 And then there was, and this was the first time that, for 436 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:08,960 example, industrialists, people involved in providing the the 437 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,720 tools, the chemicals that were used in the gas chambers by the 438 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,560 Nazis, they were brought to trial. 439 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,960 Would you have imagined one day to have standards applicable to 440 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,000 businesses and not so as to make make sure that they would comply 441 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,600 with international law? While the old argument was, oh, 442 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,640 only, only states have human rights obligations. 443 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,400 No, Everyone with an ounce of power is to respect 444 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,160 international law, including businesses and multinationals, 445 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,960 especially today where multinationals have more 446 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,880 leverage and power than sovereign states. 447 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,000 And are you using Nuremberg as an example of how it can take a 448 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,960 long time to bring international justice? 449 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,920 Or are you, as some people will suspect, also using it to 450 00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,320 compare Israel to Nazi Germany? No, I'm not comparing Israel to 451 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:03,800 to the Nazis. I'm I'm comparing what happened 452 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,960 after the the Nazi fascist Holocaust. 453 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,680 There was they did the Nuremberg tribunals and then they were the 454 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:18,760 Tokyo tribunals. But today to what is to what 455 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,240 needs to happen Today, the reality is different. 456 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,560 We have an International Criminal Court which should we 457 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,880 can prosecute, which can prosecute, investigate and 458 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,720 prosecute individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity, 459 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,960 genocide and the crime of aggression. 460 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,880 That court is being impaired and attacked as we speak so as to 461 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,040 hamper justice. But still there are national 462 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,520 courts. And you know, as we speak, it's 463 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,640 not that everything is grim and sorry, it's not that everything 464 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,760 is dark In the UK. There have been some, some 465 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,720 positive developments in courts. There was an activist charged 466 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:06,760 with terrorism that was that was acquitted recently and and 467 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,240 again, This is why I say eventually justice my knock at 468 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,920 the door of those who have betrayed it, I. 469 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,200 Mean you say the ICC is under attack and it is with with key 470 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,240 people sanctioned by the United States. 471 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,280 You are also sanctioned now since our last conversation. 472 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,760 How? How has that affected your life? 473 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,960 Badly. Honestly, it has, because it has 474 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,320 affected me. Because while I do what I do as 475 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:42,120 a human rights expert who's really devoting making huge 476 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:48,440 sacrifices to serve the United Nations, at the same time I am 477 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,680 treated as a as a criminal by the United States. 478 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:58,120 I've been sanctioned, which means just for doing my job, 479 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,760 which is even a violation if I were an American citizen. 480 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,400 It's a violation of the 1st Amendment. 481 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,200 How does it impact? You it impacts, I mean, I 482 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,160 cannot, there is a travel ban, I cannot travel to the US even in 483 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,040 the exercise of my function. In fact, the last reports to the 484 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,440 General Assembly, well, I had to present it from South Africa 485 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,680 because I could and travel to the United States. 486 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:27,320 But also it has it imposes penalties on those who work with 487 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,240 me. Anyone who's an AUS person, 488 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,160 meaning a citizen, someone who works in the US, who has assets 489 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:41,040 in the USA, USA resident who engages with me can face jail up 490 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:47,880 to 20 years and the penalties up to $1 million. 491 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,880 It's huge. And the fact and this. 492 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,280 Has implications. You can't have banking or. 493 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,280 No, my bank account. I mean I've been living in the 494 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:02,040 USI gave birth in the US and I was planning to return to the 495 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,240 US. My daughter is an American 496 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,760 citizen. She's US educated. 497 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,040 She goes to the American school. Her dream is in a few years to 498 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,400 go and study in the US. She cannot because the moment 499 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,720 she steps into the US, if the sanctions are not lifted, she 500 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,880 will She will risk felony for having offered a present to her 501 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,520 Mama. Can you believe this? 502 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:32,760 And also the implications are felt by me as a European citizen 503 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,840 in Europe, but also in someone who lives in Tunisia because I 504 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,160 cannot open a bank account anywhere because it doesn't 505 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,360 matter where you are. When it comes to banking, we are 506 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,600 under U.S. law. Why through the SWIFT code? 507 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,120 The moment I do a financial transaction that requires the 508 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,000 SWIFT code, virtually everything that is that happens 509 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,400 internationally through international circuit, it's I 510 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,600 get banned, there is a red flag. And so the the sanctions on me 511 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,440 pose a risk on the banks that open me open a bank account for 512 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,600 me, there is to incur in secondary sanctions. 513 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,200 And This is why I have to travel with with with cash. 514 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,160 But it's extremely complicated because I cannot get paid for. 515 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,360 What I was saying, how are you paid? 516 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,360 I'm not being paid, I've not been paid, I've not received a 517 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,280 payment for for work that I do other than as a special 518 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,720 rapporteur since August this year. 519 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,080 Because you can't be. I cannot be paid. 520 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,400 Who's going to receive this money? 521 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,640 It's extremely complicated. Also because with the money 522 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,080 laundering legislation, God bless it, it's impossible to 523 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:45,680 transfer money. I've been offered the 524 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,520 opportunity to open a bank account at the Cayman Island. 525 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,880 I don't want to do that. I don't want to to to to recur 526 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,520 to these dodgy expedients. I want to be protected as a 527 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,120 European who has committed no crimes. 528 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,240 And the United Nations has called for the sanctions to be 529 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,120 lifted. Absolutely, Absolutely. 530 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,200 But how? How long can you? 531 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,240 Do you think you can carry on living like this? 532 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,760 It's in, it's a, it's again, because it's a, it's a 533 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,880 significant violation of the UN Charter of the privileges and 534 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,480 immunity of the United Nations that protect me as a UN expert. 535 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,840 These sanctions must be lifted. So I do expect, I do expect 536 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:31,440 member states to come back to census and to stand up with the 537 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,800 United States persuading it to lifted the sanctions also 538 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,600 because it's a very dangerous president. 539 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,040 Think of the chilling effect it's having on anyone who's 540 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,080 working in the, I mean not just in the UN, but on this issue. 541 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,320 Can can I ask you what, what you think the effect of your 542 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:55,600 speaking out has had on the status of UN special 543 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,720 rapporteurs? You know, obviously your 544 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,760 opponents say that you are biased, that you've taken a 545 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,960 side, that you are, you know that you're not a impartial 546 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,560 rapporteur. You are now sanctioned. 547 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,280 As a result, Israel bans you. You're on persona non grata. 548 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:22,239 Do you think there has been an effect on your position that 549 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,239 affects other people as well as you? 550 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,600 It might. It might because again, the 551 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,760 chilling effect is felt and there are people who are 552 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,400 extremely courageous and defiant and they don't care. 553 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,239 They say I'm, I'm not going to be silenced, which is also my 554 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,480 position. I mean, I could have, you know, 555 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,120 I could have accepted to step, to step down from these 556 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:53,440 voluntary position. I mean, voluntary in the sense 557 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,240 that it's not even paid and say, look, this is the end of it. 558 00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:59,000 You lift the sanctions and I stop. 559 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,400 I stop what I'm doing. But I decided not to do because 560 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,920 again, it would be it would be even more more insulting to the 561 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,080 to what I'm trying to stand for and encourage others to do the 562 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,640 same. We cannot be silenced all we 563 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560 cannot be fired all we cannot be sanctioned. 564 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,440 All This is why this is a call for action to protect the the 565 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,320 rule of law based system that we have. 566 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:31,680 So with so much sacrifice built. And one thing I want to tell you 567 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:38,080 is that they had the United States has sanctioned me because 568 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,520 it couldn't silence me. It couldn't silence the truth. 569 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,360 And this is the thing, over three years, I think that my 570 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:53,000 reports have contributed and my being so active, which is what 571 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,800 anyone else, any other predecessor I've had would have 572 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,160 done had they found themselves facing a genocide. 573 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,360 But this work has created a better understanding of the 574 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,880 systemic structural issues that do not allow Israelis and 575 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,160 Palestinians to live in peace together or side by side. 576 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,600 Despite your insistence that you will stick to the law, that you 577 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,360 will not be silenced, that that that history will catch up. 578 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,040 Challa. You know, right, right now we 579 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,320 are in a situation where the most powerful country in the 580 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:32,160 world, the United States, supports Israel in a peace 581 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,320 process. That's, you know, Israel is, is, 582 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,360 is relatively pleased with it feels it's, you know, there is 583 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,080 no, there's no process of accountability right now that's 584 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:50,720 going on when it comes to Netanyahu, What is the, what has 585 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:59,880 the world really learnt about how might and strength and and 586 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,680 military might can get you what you want? 587 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,880 Krishna the risk of sound over optimistic. 588 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:16,360 I I would say that it's not, it's not a given that this 589 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,800 brutal system will will win. Look at the look at the South 590 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,880 Africa experience very different but with significant 591 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,920 similarities. I mean, the South Africa 592 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:32,640 apartheid regime has, has been able to survive, not just 593 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,000 because of the violence that the white S Africans were using 594 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,400 against black South Africans, but because of the complicity of 595 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,480 so many Western governments till the very end of the of the 596 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,760 apartheid. And and if you speak to the 597 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,960 South Africans, they tell you that the last four years of the 598 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,600 apartheid regime were the fiercest people wouldn't we 599 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,760 couldn't couldn't even imagine a day, a day where they wouldn't 600 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,520 be Apartheid meaning entrenched in the law because of course, 601 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:11,360 uprooting apartheid and what it has been over centuries, like 602 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,240 the racial segregation, it's the last part of it. 603 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:20,120 But undoing the, the, the settler colonialism of 350 years 604 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,120 of settler colonialism, of course takes time, but it 605 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,040 started and people in South Africa in the last years of the 606 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,120 apartheid could not imagine that one day that would happen. 607 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:37,200 I don't think that we can predict how it's going to be 608 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,360 based on the brutality of the system today. 609 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,120 Because, for example, Western governments, those we have 610 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:49,440 mentioned are acting so fiercely and even to the to the risk of 611 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,440 shrinking fundamental freedoms who have been the pillars of 612 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,440 their respective democracies as a result of fear, because they 613 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,880 feel the pressure of their own constituencies and politics 614 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,080 might change and people who are now in government will lose and 615 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:12,360 might face justice. So it's not it's not one, but 616 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,920 it's I wouldn't call defeat as of yet. 617 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,880 And the people who stand for human rights and justice have 618 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,840 just to be, have just to persist, to keep on believing 619 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:31,280 that justice is something worth standing for, because eventually 620 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,800 it would. It's what's going to allow them 621 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,720 to be spared by the brutality as that we are seeing today 622 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:41,400 unleashed against the Palestinians and others who 623 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,280 stand in solidarity with them. Francesca Albanese, thank you 624 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,200 very much indeed. And that's it for this edition 625 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,320 of the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.