1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,880 People were pointing to the bamboo as the cause of these 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:04,680 things. This city is built on bamboo. 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,960 It's actually more the other materials that we used in this 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 big renovation project. Some of the workers scrambled to 5 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:16,640 go and buy some compliant netting, but they only affixed 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,320 it to the lower floors so that they would pass the safety 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 inspections. Above this, of course, is the 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,280 general, you know, the massive amount of grief and anger that's 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,600 in society right now. They have been able to stop all 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,720 the protests and stop most of the dissent from Hong Kong in 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,200 the past five or six years, and this may undo that. 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,320 Hello and welcome to the forecast. 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,600 It's been called the Fire of the Century. 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,640 The blaze that engulfed 7 high rise residential buildings in 15 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,240 Hong Kong's Taipo district was the deadliest the city has seen 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:02,240 in over 70 years. 156 people are known to have died, 30 are still 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,239 missing, while fifteen people have been arrested for alleged 18 00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:07,840 manslaughter in connection with the fire. 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,720 Grief has understandably overwhelmed the city and fuelled 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,920 an uncontrollable anger towards those in power. 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,840 Today, almost a week after the file, we ask how did this 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,800 tragedy unfold? Why is Hong Kong still enraged 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,040 and what does it tell us about the city that once prided itself 24 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:28,160 on its transparency and democracy? 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,360 Well, joining me now from Hong Kong, Tom Grandy, founder and 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,520 editor of the local media, Hong Kong Free Press, and Selena 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,640 Chung, chair of the Hong Kong Journalists Association. 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,960 Welcome to you both. Tom, if I could start with you. 29 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:42,640 I mean, we've, we've seen the pictures of this fire. 30 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:47,480 It was truly extraordinary, even for those, you know, living in a 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,440 city that had the Grenfell fire from a few years ago. 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,600 How did this thing happen? Initially people were looking at 33 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,280 the bamboo, especially international observers. 34 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,000 It may look disastrous to folks, you know from outside and we can 35 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,640 talk about that a bit later, but it's actually more the other 36 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,280 materials that we used in this big renovation project, this 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,400 £32,000,000 renovation project whereby there was netting to 38 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,120 prevent things from falling down that at first was thought to be 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,600 compliant. It had passed tests and in the 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,960 last couple of days we've learned that it indeed wasn't. 41 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,880 There was also Styrofoam, some foam boards put on the outside 42 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,400 of windows that exacerbated the spread of the flames and the the 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,680 fire alarms were faulty. But to get down to the nitty 44 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,160 gritty, what has occurred is that this renovation was costing 45 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,080 about 17 and a half, 1000 lbs for each of the households. 46 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,640 Now, workers had allegedly installed substandard netting to 47 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:49,240 replace some damaged material after a series of typhoons in 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,520 Hong Kong that were always also international news. 49 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,960 And then there was a chain of other fires, other bamboo 50 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,760 scaffolding, sort of renovations going on around the city. 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,080 So some of the workers scrambled to go and buy some compliance 52 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,120 netting, but they only affixed it to the lower floors so that 53 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,520 they would pass the safety inspections. 54 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,600 Compliant role of netting cost £5.40, the dodgy stuff cost a 55 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,920 pound so they saved just over £10,000 and now 156 people are 56 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:26,160 dead. Extraordinary, I mean, I must 57 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,720 say, you know, with the first time I've arrived in Hong Kong 58 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,640 many years ago and saw bamboo scaffolding outside, you know, 59 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:35,880 some incredibly, you know, granite, glass, funky 60 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,960 skyscrapers. I thought, what's going on here? 61 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,000 But actually bamboo is an incredibly efficient way because 62 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,200 it's so elastic and so sturdy of using scaffolding around high 63 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:47,880 rise blocks. I just didn't know that. 64 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,280 Tell us about the area, Selena, where you know these people 65 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,400 lived. I think it was called 1 Foot 66 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,600 Court exactly in Typo. So tell us about 1 Foot Court 67 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,040 and tell us about Typo. What kind of people live there? 68 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,440 So 1 foot court is a kind of like government build subsidized 69 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,400 housing, but they are owned by property owners who bought them 70 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,120 years ago. So a lot of the people living 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,399 there are middle class or they build their families up from 72 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:20,120 decades ago in the 80s and the 90s. 73 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:26,360 It's located in an area that is quite central to a region we 74 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,720 call New Territory. So it's sort of in an urban area 75 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,080 that's right at the outskirts of the bustling business business 76 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,760 districts of Hong Kong. It's very residential, but it's 77 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,200 also close to nature. And so a lot of people will live 78 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,440 there because the cost of living is relatively lower than if 79 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,320 people were living on Hong Kong Island or in the central areas 80 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,840 of Kowloon. And they would then commute to 81 00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:54,200 the town. It would take maybe around an 82 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,640 hour until recently when a new train line was extended. 83 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,280 So yeah, so it's got a lot of population in just in that 84 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,640 district. And the one for court is a 85 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,800 pretty big housing estate close to the train station. 86 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,280 And a lot of people commuting into a typo area will have 87 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:19,960 passed by one for court. And next is another sort of 88 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,120 lower income housing estate. So there's sort of side by side, 89 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,520 which is very common kind of urban planning in Hong Kong. 90 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,120 So I think overall the the population in Bonfour Court, the 91 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,000 the sort of around the middle class, they're not the lowest 92 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,640 income kind of population, but they're not either very well. 93 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,160 And Tom, just to get back to the fire briefly, what really struck 94 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,760 me and I think, you know most observers here is that you had 95 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,640 not just one tower block that went up in flames, but but many. 96 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,360 How did the fire manage to jump from 1 tower block to another 97 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,560 with such ease? Well, that that's been 98 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,280 investigated now by the police and an anti corruption watchdog. 99 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:04,360 But you can imagine as these, you know, netting is, is flying 100 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,040 around that I mean, when we were down there on the first night, 101 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,680 some of the embers seemed to end up in a nearby school and the, 102 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,920 the the firefighters had to go and put out that. 103 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,320 So one of them remained unaffected. 104 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,760 And some residents are going back to retrieve their 105 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,360 belongings in the next day or two. 106 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,600 But it it spread very fast. It was a #5 alarm. 107 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,720 We haven't seen one of those. It's the highest level in like 108 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,960 17 years. But Hong Kong does have a 109 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,440 history of dramatic lethal fires over a century. 110 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,600 And each time, because this is a laissez faire, you know, not 111 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,040 many regulations in Hong Kong economy. 112 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,040 Each time they've bought in more and more safeguards. 113 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,600 But ultimately, you know, this this as as the months and years 114 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,680 pass, we might get down to the real nitty gritty here, which 115 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,440 which could be, you know, corruption in the ranks of these 116 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,400 building committees, which has long been a story in Hong Kong 117 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,480 as well. So one thing Tom has come up is 118 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,920 this, you know, is the importance of bamboo as a 119 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,560 scaffolding, but also more than that, bamboo and identity 120 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,840 politics in Hong Kong. Can you just explain that to me 121 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:09,880 please? People got a little bit, you 122 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,040 know, hot headed about having the early parts of this crisis. 123 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,920 People were pointing to the bamboo as as the cause of these 124 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:17,960 things. This city is built on bamboo, if 125 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,960 you will. And like the neon you've been to 126 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,160 Hong Kong. It's an iconic site in the city. 127 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,280 It may look disastrous to foreign eyes. 128 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,920 You know, it's it's metal that's used everywhere else, but it's 129 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,800 super fast. It's versatile like Lego. 130 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,640 You can create sort of shapes very awkwardly in in nooks and 131 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,680 crannies in a city that has the highest population density in 132 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,680 the world. And any Hong Konger downstairs 133 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,280 will tell you that it's stronger than steel. 134 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,720 You know, mainland firms have really struggled to bid for 135 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,920 construction projects sometimes in Hong Kong because they're 136 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,160 just used to using steel and and bamboo scaffolders, you know, 137 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,200 are highly skilled. It's a dying art. 138 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,000 They are going to phase it out even before this crisis. 139 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,640 So I think some people jump to conclusions a bit here, but Hong 140 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,920 Kong is here and especially abroad see it as a kind of 141 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,720 iconic identifying sort of thing. 142 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840 In Hong Kong. It's something that, and this is 143 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,320 the key thing differentiates a city from the mainland and the 144 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,720 Hong Kong identity is constantly perceived to be under threat. 145 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,120 And so people were very defensive about the robustness 146 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,840 of bamboo. And actually, you know, I went 147 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,200 down today and you can see that the bamboo has has largely 148 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,440 survived this blaze. And, and the real cause was of 149 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,039 course, the netting, the Styrofoam and, and things like 150 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:35,120 that. So it looks like. 151 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,679 That's fascinating. So they're not using bamboo in 152 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,080 Shanghai or Beijing, they're just using it in Hong Kong. 153 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,880 They do still in parts of the mainland, but but it's, it's 154 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,400 very iconic in Syria. I've been walking around today 155 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,720 and you're kind of seeing these naked buildings because they've 156 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,520 been pulling down this netting. You know, I saw it happening in 157 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,520 real time. But but it, it's still an 158 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,600 incredible sight to behold. And like spiders, these highly 159 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,720 skilled construction people go up and down to dying art. 160 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,800 It's a little more expensive I believe, but it's it's very 161 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,360 versatile and fast in this fast moving, very dense city. 162 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,040 And if the if your main point of differentiation between you and 163 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,560 Hong Kong supposedly free and the mainland not so free is 164 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,880 bamboo scaffolding, I guess you've got a bit of a problem, 165 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,240 haven't you? It's not the only point of 166 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,520 differentiation. The entire identity crisis, I 167 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,000 suppose this city that is a borrowed place on borrowed time 168 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,720 a lot of the time always going down to some countdown. 169 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,680 You know, it's identity was often based on on what 170 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:34,720 differentiated it from China. And now we see whether it's 171 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,560 through the demographics, the economics, the physical sort of 172 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:43,120 changes in terms of the new border crossings or structures 173 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,320 like the bridge to Macau or, or the, or all of the ports, the 174 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,120 economic links. It is, as you mentioned, the 175 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,200 authorities want it to be seen as a sort of great Greater Bay 176 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,840 Area identity with that area in southern China, you know, 177 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,320 Shenzhen, Guangdong. So people can be very defensive 178 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,640 about those things that still make give Hong Kong its charm or 179 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:08,040 or the difference between here and just 20 miles north in 180 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,280 mainland China. Selena, we know that there are 181 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,960 investigations going on and you know, I think 15 people have 182 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,760 been charged with manslaughter. Who are the people of Hong Kong 183 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,240 blaming? Interestingly, the people of 184 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,440 Hong Kong are not so much passing the blame onto the 185 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,960 construction company or the workers or the executives of 186 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,240 these companies, but the whole system around which the 187 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,480 renovation project came about. So it was in around 2009 when 188 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:40,560 the government passed a policy where certain buildings would be 189 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,680 issued with mandatory inspection orders. 190 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:50,080 And if the inspection didn't go well, they would be required by 191 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,320 law to hire a renovation company to do exterior renovation. 192 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,760 Basically to make sure that the, the, the bits and pieces are not 193 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,680 falling from the building and hurting people or other things 194 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,360 around the safety of the building. 195 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,640 And so this means when entire housing estate is under an 196 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,160 inspection order, they are required to do the renovation 197 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,120 within a certain period of time. And the ownership corporation, 198 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,480 the building committee, you know, formed by people who are 199 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,880 property owners will have to go through the tendering process. 200 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,800 And a lot of the renovation companies are basically ganging 201 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,280 up on the property owners because they have limited time 202 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,760 to do this and they have to do it. 203 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,040 And this means that there are a lot of corruption going on. 204 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,240 Some of the construction companies, they are basically 205 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,560 the same people forming different companies in the 206 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:44,440 process to join the tender together. 207 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,000 They fix the prices and or they either or they may be colluding 208 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,640 with the owners corporation, the people running that committee to 209 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,160 forge the whole building to chip in for the project. 210 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,720 So this is a very, very common problem in Hong Kong. 211 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,040 And basically all of the property owners would know 212 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,320 something about the process or have been through how painful it 213 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,280 is. It's difficult enough to get a 214 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,800 building with thousands of property owners to agree to chip 215 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,200 in on something that is very expensive. 216 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,720 And so there's been a lot of effort in Hong Kong trying to, 217 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,040 you know, tell the government that this policy is not working. 218 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,240 And instead it's fostering the corruption of the construction 219 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:34,520 industry in Hong Kong. And so in in this situation, 220 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,640 people see that happening because the Wonford Court 221 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:43,000 residents last year basically revolted against our own 222 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,080 ownership corporation, thinking that it was corrupt and 223 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,520 disagreed with the contractor that was being hired, the ferry 224 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,160 contractor. Now that is accused of 225 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,600 manslaughter and they were unable to do that. 226 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,120 They were able to basically overthrow the ownership 227 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,280 corporation, but they were not able to cancel the contract that 228 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,320 was already signed. And if they were to, why 229 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,560 weren't? They able to do that? 230 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,920 Who blocked them? Property owners formed factions 231 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,040 among themselves and they were able to call extraordinary 232 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,800 general meetings and, you know, votes of no confidence to 233 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,560 overthrow the previous ownership corporation. 234 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,280 And however, by then the contract for the renovation has 235 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,400 been signed and they were not able to avoid it. 236 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,200 If they did, they could be sued and it would be a very lengthy 237 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,360 legal process and could increase the ultimate cost of the 238 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,400 renovation. So they just went ahead with 239 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,840 with what was said by the previous term basically. 240 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,480 And so a lot of people in Hong Kong understand this process 241 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,360 very well and they understand how it came about, how negligent 242 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,520 company was selected and, you know, led to this outcome. 243 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,760 So no, I wouldn't say that people were passing the blame or 244 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,240 feeling very, you know, at least emotionally passing a blame on 245 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,920 to those 15 people arrested. But they very much notice the 246 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:22,520 system that created all these failures and ultimately I'd say 247 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,720 everything that can go wrong has gone wrong for this housing 248 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,040 estate that led to probably 6 lives being lost. 249 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,760 And you know, Tom, the way Selena describes it, you know, 250 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,720 it's quite a familiar tale. We have similar issues between 251 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,640 leaseholders and freeholders and big construction companies in 252 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,320 this country. But to what extent does this 253 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,960 kind of problem, this systemic problem, we get coverage in the 254 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,040 Hong Kong media? And do the people that are now 255 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,360 being blamed get cover from the political class, from the 256 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:53,680 political leadership in Hong Kong? 257 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,520 I mean, while talking about the UK, this does have echoes of the 258 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,160 Grenfell disaster, you know as well. 259 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,320 But to to actually dig down into how that kind of scam works with 260 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,360 these building committees, there will be vested interest that 261 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,480 sort of stage a coup to take control of of that governing 262 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,120 committee, stay in store friendly security companies, you 263 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,280 know, cleaning firms, shops with some kickbacks going on and 264 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,200 ultimately the property management company. 265 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,160 But it's the building repairs that are the most lucrative. 266 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,800 That's where you see the inflated costs and the kind of 267 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,320 substandard word work that you you saw at Wankford Court. 268 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,640 So with bid rigging, you're going to see some parties that 269 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,000 were sort of taken in turns to to liaise with each other, 270 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,440 generally over the phone with no paper trail, of course, to 271 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,560 ensure a pre selected winner through artificially inflated 272 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,480 bids. And the losing bidders might 273 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,920 get, you know, lucrative subcontracts or whatever. 274 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,760 But that's sort of how it works. And there is meant to be some 275 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,640 sort of accountability process that you're asking about. 276 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,240 You know, unhappy residents can approach the Lands Tribunal, but 277 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,040 the, and there is this building management ordinance to govern 278 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,560 this stuff. The fact is it's very slow and 279 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,320 it's very expensive. And Chief Executive John Lee, 280 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,920 Hong Kong's leader this morning did sort of allude to this kind 281 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,240 of problem in Hong Kong in terms of reform. 282 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,440 But the real questions now is, is when he he says there's going 283 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,000 to be an independent inquiry, Is it going to go through an 284 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,040 ordinance we have for that which actually is empowered to 285 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,000 subpoena, subpoena people? And he talks about a judge 286 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,040 leading it. We've seen a lot of hand picked 287 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,320 judges for like national security cases. 288 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,320 We're now under the national security era. 289 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,720 So how is this kind of investigation going to pan out? 290 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,160 And the ultimate question, you know, there seems to be a bit of 291 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,000 impatience with people so far who are pointing the finger at 292 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,040 the government is, is this this new era in Hong Kong? 293 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,960 Is, is it going to be that capacity to sort of self 294 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,160 criticize and see if there are any wrongdoing or any issues or 295 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,880 things that need revamping, you know, within the government and 296 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,640 all these it was inspected a week before this fire as well as 297 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,720 much as it has been said that they they have pulled the fast 298 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,720 one with this netting. So the question is, how deep are 299 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,040 they going to go with this kind of probe? 300 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,319 Onto the new national security law that was imposed by Beijing 301 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:24,119 onto Hong Kong in contravention of the one country 2 systems 302 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,280 arrangement, you know in the in the early stage of the pandemic, 303 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,960 to what extent can these grievances be aired in the 304 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,120 media, for instance, or in the public space without leading to 305 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,120 repercussions or people getting arrested or getting fined 306 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,720 Selena, first you. We have already seen the started 307 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,200 seeing some of the repercussions. 308 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:52,040 At least three people have been arrested, I think questioned and 309 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,640 on grounds of sedition after they've come up with petitions 310 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:02,000 asking for an independent investigation or coordinating 311 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,360 some of the aid efforts surrounding this disaster. 312 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,400 The government hasn't started, you know, as big of a widespread 313 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,480 crackdown on speech like it is in 2020 and 21. 314 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,320 But I wouldn't be surprised to see more arrests being made. 315 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,800 And so today there were several people, I think they were 316 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,520 somewhat of former, former politicians forming a group and, 317 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,360 you know, urging the government for action going. 318 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,840 They were going to make some policy recommendation to 319 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,000 discuss, you know, viewpoints and called a press conference. 320 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,920 And it was called off this morning and three of the 321 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,120 organizers were called in by national security police for 322 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,680 questioning. And they were asked not to 323 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,200 discuss what police, you know, told them or asked them to do. 324 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,720 That's kind of extraordinary, isn't it? 325 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,520 I mean, so, so we're dealing with a, you know, with a 326 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,440 construction issues, some dodgy materials, some very localized 327 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,160 corruption. And yet you've got the national 328 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,280 security, the police or the people who enforce the national 329 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,600 security law getting involved at this level, you know, calling 330 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,600 people in for questioning, arresting some. 331 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,520 What are they afraid of here? What do you think they're afraid 332 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:13,960 of, Selena? Yeah. 333 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:19,600 My sense is that the cause for people to seek independent 334 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,280 investigation, to look at the systematic failures may touch on 335 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,280 some nerves. And I would have to rewind a 336 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,440 little bit into how these ownership corporations are run. 337 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,480 They're very much tied to local politics. 338 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,600 And you know, when you have district elections, different 339 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,960 political parties in the past and politicians, they will try 340 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,840 to exert their influence through these ownership corporations. 341 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,640 So sometimes some of the ownership corporations would 342 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,200 have advisors, external advisors, and some of these 343 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,000 external advisors would be district councillors. 344 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,640 They are. They used to be mostly elected 345 00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:00,480 representatives, and so people would view some of the ownership 346 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,920 corporations as being leaning towards a certain political 347 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,040 party. And then, of course, by 348 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,240 extension, if problems arise, they will, you know, blame the 349 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,800 influence that was going on and, you know, wonder if, you know, 350 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,680 there were other kinds of conspiracies going on. 351 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,600 And within housing at states in Hong Kong, other than ownership 352 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,120 corporations, there used to be a kind of body called mutual aid 353 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,400 committee. They kind of were complementary 354 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,760 with ownership corporation in the past, but with fewer powers 355 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,520 to take decisions for their state. 356 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,960 And those mutual aid committees were seen as a kind of 357 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,520 counterweight to ownership corporation after political 358 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,440 problems and exacerbated. So the government disbanded. 359 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,040 Almost all of these mutual aid committees prevent activists or 360 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:55,640 the pro democracy elements from being able to act as account. 361 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,360 So I think there is a very strong sort of political 362 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:05,280 undertone in all of this and the government will see it. 363 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,880 And that's why that's part of the, I think it's part of the 364 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,440 motivation for them to really clamp down on this heavy 365 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,400 handedly. But above this, of course is the 366 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,480 general, you know, the massive amount of grief and anger that's 367 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,520 in society right now, that's boiling, that's risking boiling 368 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,920 over. They have been able to stop all 369 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,040 the protests and just not most of the dissent from Hong Kong in 370 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,800 the past five or six years. And this may undo that, that 371 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,440 work that the Hong Kong government has been doing. 372 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,040 And that's why during this delicate moment, I will not be 373 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,600 surprised that the government tries very hard to control what 374 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,240 people will will do in public space to express that anger and 375 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,040 grief. Tom, describe that anger, 376 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,600 because I mean, the last time I was in Hong Kong was in 2019 377 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,840 when there was a lot of anguish and anger about an extradition 378 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,760 law that was going to be introduced by the then chief 379 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,640 executive, Carrie Lam. She then ditched it. 380 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,400 But there were a lot of people on the streets and of course the 381 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,160 students took over some of the universities and there was real 382 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,200 trouble there and there was anger. 383 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,000 But how does that anger then compared to the anger that you 384 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,520 see now? It's hard to really say how 385 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,120 folks feel. 11 student, 19 years old. 386 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:27,480 Miles, He was handing out a petition urging accountability, 387 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,240 asking for an independent probe. He was seemingly arrested. 388 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,120 The police will not confirm it, but he left the police station 389 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,720 yesterday and his petition disappeared. 390 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,440 But look at the context here as to what happens in China when 391 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,240 there are similar tragedies, disasters, whether it's Sichuan 392 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,040 earthquake, train crash near Shanghai or construction or 393 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,320 financial scandals. There seems to be a little bit 394 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,600 of breathing room for expression in the moments it occurs. 395 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,280 But ultimately, to answer your early question, it is about 396 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,600 control in terms of people organizing. 397 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,200 And so an hour ago in this newsroom, I asked my staff, make 398 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,240 sure you get people's contacts, folks who might be victims 399 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,040 talking about this online. Their posts might disappear. 400 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,880 They may be more reluctant to speak later. 401 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:15,480 We've seen these sedition arrests, arrests for inciting 402 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,800 hatred against the government, the kind of thing I thought 403 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,520 might happen in weeks or months, not so quickly, to be honest, 404 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,600 because, you know, you need a kind of pressure valve after 405 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,080 these things happen. And yet here we are. 406 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,680 But yeah, people are, the authorities are allergic to 407 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,000 people organizing. And I think that they're getting 408 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,440 a bit of 2019 protest vibes from some of the things they've seen 409 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,520 in terms of the speed of the reaction, the support networks, 410 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,440 the websites that came up overnight at at at at a level 411 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,120 that really the government can only dream of in terms of 412 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,400 instant response, let alone messages on certain walls that 413 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,440 resemble the pro democracy, so-called Lennon walls. 414 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,000 Those were taken down last night. 415 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,360 And a few other elements that have made them, I think, a 416 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:00,880 little bit nervous as we go into a Patriots only election on 417 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,960 Sunday. And Selena, I guess there must 418 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,040 be a lot of pent up frustration and anger ever since the 419 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,560 national security law was imposed and the whole democracy 420 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,720 project was kind of shut down. Is that, is that what we're 421 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,400 seeing now? That this pent up anger and 422 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,960 frustration, the diffuse for that has literally been lit by 423 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:23,000 this extraordinary fire? Yeah, during the pro democracy 424 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,800 movement, a lot of the anger is towards the Hong Kong political 425 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,800 system, how the government was formed and whether people were 426 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,080 given a choice of their own government and representatives. 427 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,760 This is different. This is preceded by immense 428 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,200 grief. Anyone seeing such huge fire, so 429 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,680 many lives lost will feel, will feel immense grief. 430 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,160 And we saw this yesterday and the day before when there were 431 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,160 sort of memorials set up for people to lay their flowers and 432 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,560 express that grief. And the queues were almost 2 433 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,800 kilometers long. People had to queue up for 2-3 434 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,760 hours before they even reached a memorial to just lay their 435 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,400 flower, make a prayer of some sort. 436 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,960 And I think over the five or six years past, the at least four 437 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:18,120 people who've stayed in Hong Kong instead of immigrating to 438 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,360 places like UK or Canada, they have accepted the current 439 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,720 system. They know that it's futile to 440 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,000 resist it or to do much about it. 441 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:31,760 They go about their lives and they will accept it to the 442 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,560 extent that Hong Kong is able to guarantee them personal safety 443 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,480 and some level of good governance. 444 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,360 And now we see that as pierced. And so people realize that even 445 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:49,600 if they didn't come out with political demands, their lives 446 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,280 could truly be threatened by the system that is currently in 447 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,880 place. So that makes this anger 448 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,520 dangerous and a challenge to the current government. 449 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,360 And and Selena, just on the question of grief, I mean, you 450 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:12,160 know, most of Hong Kong, I'm guessing lives in places like 451 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,400 the ones like the tower blocks that burnt down in the, you 452 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,080 know, these tall high rise buildings with, you know, 453 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,280 relatively small, you know, quite cramped apartments that 454 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,200 cost a lot of money given the space that you're living in. 455 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,440 That's how Hong Kong lives. So there must have been a real 456 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,920 identification amongst those people, even those who didn't 457 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,400 know anyone in the buildings that burned down or didn't lose 458 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,160 any friends or relatives. They they must really identify 459 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,000 with those poor victims. Yeah. 460 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:45,520 And we see that multiple housing estates similar to one for court 461 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:50,000 their owners corporation, the property owners have caught 462 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,240 emergency meetings questioning the renovation projects that's 463 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,120 going on at the same time at this current moment to ask 464 00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:01,600 whether the materials used there were compliant. 465 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,200 They asked the construction companies to come and test the 466 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,360 materials in front of their eyes. 467 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840 And if they can't find the answer, the some of the 468 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,720 ownership corporation decided to just take down the netting 469 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,120 material around scaffolding right away while they try to 470 00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:23,000 find out. So and for myself, one of my 471 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,440 friends living in a relatively well off district, they I think 472 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,240 in the process they hires at least one company that has the 473 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,120 same one used in one full court. I don't know which one it is 474 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,520 exactly, but my friend's father basically has been retired. 475 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,280 He's in the corporation and it's been a battle to just get this 476 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,640 done. And now this happens and he 477 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,320 literally said his blood pressure goes goes up every time 478 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,480 he sees the news because thinking of what is going going 479 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,600 to happen or could have happened to where he lives right now. 480 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,800 So yes, a strong sense of identification and and sympathy 481 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,840 for the victims there. And Tom, I mean, there's, you 482 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,840 know, I guess there is a difference between this sort of 483 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,640 raw grief around these, you know, these terrible fires 484 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,240 compared to the more abstract issues of, you know, democracy, 485 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,680 freedom or security that we had in 2019. 486 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,160 You know, that, you know, the abstract issue of the 487 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,360 extradition law, which which did sort of touch on fundamental 488 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:22,640 issues of freedom and and law and order inside Hong Kong, but 489 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,040 nothing, as, you know, as in your face and as raw and as 490 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,920 tragic as this fire. Now, given where Hong Kong is 491 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,400 politically, do you think that this will translate into 492 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,200 something bigger, you know, than the demonstration we've seen 493 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,680 before? Or are people so cowed by the 494 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,680 political system now that they'll eventually the the 495 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,400 authorities will just count on them going away quietly? 496 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,640 To be honest, I think it's more the latter. 497 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,440 I'm more of a in the cynical camp. 498 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,800 We are 10 years into running an independent news outlet here. 499 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,240 Most of that time has been during the security law era, and 500 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,960 much of any kind of resistance you may imagine has been stamped 501 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,200 out that we're going into these Patriots only elections. 502 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,880 What does that? Explain that patriots only 503 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,160 elections. Explain that to our. 504 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,920 Audience only patriots can stand. 505 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,560 I would think it's more comparable to the Iranian system 506 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,120 maybe where the candidates are pre approved and the traditional 507 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,640 opposition, the pro democracy figures that were famous, you 508 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,080 know, all these years during a 30 year mostly peaceful Martin. 509 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,160 Lee, Claudia MO, all those people that they're either in 510 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,120 jail, right? Or they've been. 511 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,920 Claudia's died out but but many are in jail, they're in self 512 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,560 exile or they've quit politics and rarely do you hear from 513 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,640 them. So and 50 civil society groups 514 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,240 at least have been disbanded. A lot of the independent media, 515 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,440 Apple Daily, etcetera. The newsrooms have been raided. 516 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,680 1000 Journalists out of work. Jimmy Lai in jail. 517 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,760 Exactly. So all these channels of 518 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,440 accountability, elections, you know, the media, etcetera, 519 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,440 they've either been minimized, wiped out, you know, the 520 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,560 district councils, the local representatives, it is all now a 521 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,040 patriotic affair. And the government is very 522 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,040 concerned about turn out on Sunday. 523 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,080 Everywhere you go, every surface you can imagine is plastered 524 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,600 with promotions because it of course has to look as credible 525 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,120 as possible and it has been played with low turnouts since 526 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,320 the the electoral revamp. Now, I don't know how 527 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,040 sensitively they're going to step around, whether they are 528 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,440 expecting or encouraging victims of this tragedy to be voting. 529 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,400 They won't have access to paperwork and ID We'll see how 530 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,960 that's handled. But they initially thought they 531 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,480 might, you know, delay these elections. 532 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,120 But they are going to go ahead on Sunday despite everything. 533 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,480 But I, I wouldn't too over excited as to this blowing up 534 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,360 into any kind of massive protest or anything like that. 535 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,800 The authorities have been very swift to make arrests, you know, 536 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,720 within hours basically. And, and, and it's now up to 537 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,400 like 15. So the the narrative or, or 538 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,840 whatever is being set as to who's to blame here. 539 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,800 It's kind of further along, I think should these families seek 540 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,120 to organize themselves and demand accountability beyond the 541 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,320 construction firms or whatever, then we might, you know, see a 542 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,200 bit of trouble there. But I, I feel that, you know, 543 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,960 this is an all-encompassing, all powerful, multibillion dollar 544 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,360 national security project with its tentacles in every agency 545 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,200 that you can imagine. It is very much a top down, 546 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,200 bottom up affair. And people know the consequences 547 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,560 and everybody. You'll see them in the comments. 548 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,240 You know, when they saw the students speaking out a few 549 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,760 days, kind of felt how it was going to go. 550 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,240 And an example has been set, put it that way. 551 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,560 Celina, do you agree with that? Yeah, I think it could be the 552 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,880 most likely scenario, to be honest. 553 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,880 It's going to be a lengthy process just to investigate it 554 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,760 and prosecute the 15 people arrested. 555 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,120 I think the government has taken some, what I think is correct 556 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,840 steps to allow that grief to be expressed. 557 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,400 They organize the memorials, allowing people in different 558 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,120 districts to go to the memorials. 559 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,840 They've given information from the police interrogation very 560 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,800 quickly. That doesn't usually happen in 561 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,320 any criminal investigation. And so if they, you know, give 562 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,920 sufficient answers to people and prosecute some take some form of 563 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,840 prosecution against against the perpetrators. 564 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,080 So that will help release some of that anger and grief. 565 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,080 And in 2012, there was another ferry disaster in Hong Kong 566 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,400 where around 40 people died. They had an independent 567 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,040 commissioner at the time by a judge who investigated the 568 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,040 police investigated it. It was a very long drawn out 569 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,040 process that just wrapped this year. 570 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,720 And that was 2012. So it took around 15 years, and 571 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,440 13 years later, of course, most of Hong Kong would have moved 572 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,520 on, even though most of the families of the victims or the 573 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,480 survivors still grieve from it and have to grapple with the 574 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,800 outcomes. So I would imagine it takes 575 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,920 another 10 years for this affair to finally come to a conclusion 576 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,480 and hopefully, in the process, some justice rendered. 577 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,080 I don't imagine there will be, you know, dramatic reforms to 578 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,360 tackle this problem at the root. Maybe there will be reform in 579 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,840 fire safety regulation, inspection procedures, 580 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,200 construction regulation, but ultimately, you know, when it 581 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,840 comes to the problems with the ownership corporations, maybe 582 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,960 that system will be in place because it's much harder to fix 583 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,040 something at the root than addressing the the causes or the 584 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,640 things that led to the immediate outcomes. 585 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,760 Finally, Tom, I mean, do you think that this fire and this 586 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,280 situation in Hong Kong, yeah, from the grief to the kind of 587 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,600 lack of, you know, real political change that might 588 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,719 result from it, you know, to the people who are going to end up 589 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,199 in jail for it. Do you think it would feel any 590 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:24,639 different if this fire were heaven forfend to take place in 591 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,000 Hangzhou or in Shanghai? Or is Hong Kong now, 592 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,120 effectively, even at a tragedy like this, essentially a part of 593 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,320 mainland China? There are some differences 594 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,360 still. There is some transparency here. 595 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,040 We remain in Hong Kong as a news team because you can go to the 596 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,280 courts and bear witness. You can write the first draft of 597 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,120 history from the legislature and see what's going on. 598 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,159 And you can ask tough questions of officials. 599 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,280 And one reporter this morning certainly did ask John Lee 600 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,679 directly, you know, are you going to quit, basically? 601 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,240 And that wouldn't. Happen in Beijing or in 602 00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:58,600 Shanghai? No, you don't get those 603 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,120 opportunities. So we are in a different era in 604 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,200 Hong Kong. I don't think really any 605 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,040 observer, I mean even some Grenfell victims have said, wow, 606 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,040 arrests this quickly. It's hard to complain really 607 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,680 about most of what's how the response has gone. 608 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,640 And 155,000,000, you know, has been raised some of that 609 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,080 government money, mostly from the public, but ultimately a lot 610 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,800 of money flying around as this process, as Selena says, is 611 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,520 going to pan on for the next decade. 612 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,160 Families may have those bailouts or whatnot, but ultimately 613 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,240 they're going to want answers. They're going to want justice. 614 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,360 That's and, and the, and the, and the government knows that 615 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,680 that this is where it gets rather sensitive. 616 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,880 So they're kind of jittery. There's an old Patriots election 617 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,880 coming up, but it's too soon to say, you know, whether all this 618 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,040 is going to sort of blow up and how people are going to feel 619 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,760 about the government in the in the medium, long term. 620 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,760 All right, fascinating stuff. We're going to leave it there. 621 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,840 Thank you very much to both of you for your time and stay safe. 622 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,160 Tom Grandy and Selena Cheng, thanks very much for coming on 623 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,320 to the forecast. That's it. 624 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,200 Hope you enjoyed the programme. See you next time.