1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,440 It's something that sat in my heart for a very, very long time 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:08,039 because I feel all the shame and guilt that we're not that I 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,240 think many gay young men at that time grew up with generally 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,000 about their own sexuality, felt really concentrated in that 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,360 moment. And I hadn't told many people at 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,560 all until two or three years ago. 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,680 And then when I told a couple of people then I couldn't stop 8 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,120 crying. So there's probably more hurt in 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,360 me about it than I would recognize. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,880 Hello and welcome to the forecast. 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,200 His new book is called A Life and a Half, The Unexpected 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,960 Making of a Politician. But really, Chris Bryant's 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,360 biography is a tale of multiple lives. 14 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,280 There's the Oxford educated Anglican priest turned Labour 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,240 councillor, MP, government minister and now knight of the 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,280 realm. And there's also childhood in 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,320 fascist Spain, in a dysfunctional family, the home 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,040 he found on stage at the National Youth Theatre and the 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,560 sexual assault that came with it, and the spirited embracing 20 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,640 of his sexuality, which combined protest, prejudice and quite a 21 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,720 lot of partying. So who is the real Sir Chris 22 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,560 Bryant? He joins me now. 23 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,840 You, you are this contradiction, aren't you, in that your very 24 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:23,240 establishment, in some ways, you know, Oxford politics, the 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,080 church, and yet you kick against it all. 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,760 I, I feel as if I've, I've occupied a niche in virtually 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,480 every portico in the establishment over some at some 28 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,680 point that you, you, you've left out the BBC as well. 29 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,120 So the BBC, the Church of England, Oxford and all the rest 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:40,320 of it. Yes, very much. 31 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,760 And I went to prep school, public school, all the rest of 32 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,760 it. And yet, and yet I didn't end up 33 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:51,000 a Tory MPI didn't end up in, and you know, working in the city or 34 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,520 whatever, or a barrister. I ended up as a Labour MP for 35 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,320 the Rhondda in South Wales. Yes, and, and I suppose part of 36 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,560 what the book when, when, when my editor was saying, well, what 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,960 we going to call this book that was part of the thinking behind 38 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,680 it was I'd, I'd keep on quoting this line from Stephen 39 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,160 Sondheim's Follies. And then she careered from 40 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,120 career to career. And there is a bit of that about 41 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,520 my previous life. And I suppose part of the reason 42 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,320 for writing it was wanting to work out how did I end up being 43 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:22,880 the person I am? And are there things that I 44 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,320 still need to correct about myself? 45 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,680 Yeah, I mean, the the book is, there's a great deal in the book 46 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,200 about childhood and family and then young adulthood. 47 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,960 There's an awful lot in there about sexuality and being gay 48 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,840 and how you felt about it along the way. 49 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,920 Is it too much? No, but I mean it. 50 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:42,480 It makes you feel as though that's been quite a a very 51 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,600 defining thing for you. Oh, it has. 52 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,280 I mean, well, I mean, of course it is. 53 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,880 You know, working out your own sexuality is a really important 54 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:55,160 part of working out who you are. And, and I guess you know that 55 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,240 there's a generation of people who've grown up in now who had 56 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,840 no idea that when I was born, it was a criminal offence to have 57 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,360 for a man to have sex with a man. 58 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,800 And when I all through my, my time at university and the age 59 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,840 of consent for gay sex was 21. So anything I did at university 60 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,600 with another man was completely illegal. 61 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,720 And so that, you know, understanding that and then the 62 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,120 moment of liberation that came when the laws changed and when 63 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,320 things were possible for people to live a life together. 64 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,920 It is, is one of the parts of the story I really wanted to 65 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:27,560 tell. I mean, for instance, I, I tell 66 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,200 the story of telling my mum that I was gay. 67 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,080 She's coming to stay with me. Her, her life was a bit of a 68 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,360 mess. She was coming to stay with me. 69 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,080 By this time I was already an Anglican priest and, and I said 70 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,800 to her, look, I'm gay. And she says to me two things. 71 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,720 First of all, well, I should, she should always have known 72 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,280 because I have such a funny walk. 73 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,240 You're not allowed to look at me as I leave just to check. 74 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,920 But also she said, Oh, but the, the, I mean, the terrible thing 75 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,920 is, of course, Christopher, you'll be lonely in old age 76 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,480 because that was the fundamental belief that everybody had about 77 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,640 gay men in particular, that in old age they will be lonely. 78 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,400 Maybe for lesbians like the old ladies of Llangocklan from in, 79 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,840 you know, the 19th century, it will be different. 80 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,920 But for men, you would be lonely in old age. 81 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,360 And that's why it's such an amazing thing to live in a 82 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,360 generation where I can talk about having a husband. 83 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,880 I mean you, you talk about for quite a long time, not really 84 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,240 knowing what your sexuality was, having a girlfriend, a partner, 85 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,120 but but not really thinking, not really being sure what you. 86 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:30,000 No, well, and I was at I went to Cheltenham College and there 87 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,080 were only boys at Cheltenham College in those days that there 88 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,960 was Cheltenham Ladies College down the road. 89 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,840 But the, the, the twain should never ever meet was the was the 90 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:41,480 kind of rule except that I, I don't know what inspired me, but 91 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,440 I wanted to act in every single play. 92 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,040 I wanted to sing in every single Choral Society because that 93 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,080 meant I could spend time with girls and I and when I was at 94 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,080 school, I had quite a lot of girlfriends. 95 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,040 And then it was my wonderful girlfriend Donna, great singer, 96 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,760 who when she woke me up 1 morning, I mean, I probably 97 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,440 wasn't meant to be sleeping with anybody because I was a priest 98 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,600 in the Church of England. And she said, Crystal, you do 99 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,040 know you're gay, by the way, don't you? 100 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,200 And and then it, it's not that I, I don't feel it's like it was 101 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,640 something I came to terms with it just kind of I settled into 102 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:19,840 it. Did you not want to be gay, You 103 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:22,760 know? Well, it's not that I wanted to 104 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,000 fight it, it's more that I kind of presumed that I wouldn't be 105 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:27,880 because the world presumes that you won't be. 106 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,960 And, and incidentally, it still does today that, you know, 107 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,480 understandably, the vast majority of people are not gay. 108 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,320 And so the assumption is you'll get married to somebody from the 109 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,680 other sex, you'll have children and, and you know, you'll, 110 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,120 you'll maybe have a couple of dogs or a cat or whatever, and, 111 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,840 and then you'll have doting grandchildren around you in old 112 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:46,640 age. And, and of course that that 113 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,200 whole world has changed for many people's expectations now. 114 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,120 But for me, Oh, and of course I was involved in the Church and 115 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,680 the church when back, back in those days had a kind of don't 116 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,080 ask, don't tell kind of line. And then it kind of worked out 117 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,320 that that didn't work anymore. And I knew so many priests in 118 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,080 the Church of England who'd long given up their faith. 119 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,120 They used to go on holiday to Mykonos or Sitches or Fort 120 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,800 Lauderdale or whatever, have affairs whilst they're away. 121 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,600 Desperately hoped that there wouldn't be anybody from the 122 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,120 Daily Mail or the News of the World there and and then come 123 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,080 back and have to live a life of complete celibacy and and a 124 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,120 hidden life. And then they'd be terribly 125 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:30,560 bitter. I. 126 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,840 Mean do you think you might have been a Bishop or a or a cabinet 127 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:36,760 minister? Well, if you hadn't been gay. 128 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,000 I know that we're looking for an Archbishop of Canterbury and I 129 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,360 am still available technically. Oh, I don't know. 130 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,120 I was told, I remember going to see Bill Westwood, who was the 131 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,080 Bishop of Peterborough when I was the youth chaplain from the 132 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,560 for the Diocese of Peterborough. And I said, look, I'm leaving. 133 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,560 I'm 29. I know this isn't right for me. 134 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,840 I'm a gay man. And he said to me, it's one of 135 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:59,560 the stories in the book. He said, look, Christopher, if 136 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,960 only you knew how to keep your mouth shut, you could have enjoy 137 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,560 all the things that I do. You'd get to be a Bishop and 138 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,320 you'd be he'd have regular lunches with Margaret Thatcher. 139 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:11,160 Now for me, Margaret Thatcher was anathema a from a Christian 140 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,080 perspective because I just thought that what she was doing 141 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,760 was despicable and wrong for the country, but equally because she 142 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,040 she'd just done a great big speech about how homosexuals 143 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,760 shouldn't expect that they had a right to exist. 144 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,920 And so, and then introduced Clause 28. 145 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,440 So for me, it was part of what, you know, stirred the, the 146 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,440 political pot for me, I think, and transformed me from the, the 147 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,200 little Tory who arrived at Oxford and to, to, you know, the 148 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,200 young lad who went off to Latin America to look at liberation 149 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:46,040 theology and understand what, what, how Christians could 150 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,000 respond in a world of phenomenal poverty. 151 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,560 And what? Why were you the Tory who went 152 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,600 to Oxford? Was that because of parents? 153 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,200 Yeah, so I, you know, my life started in Cardiff, but my 154 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,200 parents originally met when mum was a makeup artist. 155 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,680 She looked after Shirley Bassey's wigs and dad, dad had 156 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,080 grown, you know, left school at the age of 15, not many 157 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,040 qualifications. Went to work in Spain in a in a 158 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:18,280 summer on in a hotel and they met and mum and dad then 159 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,840 married. They produced me and every 160 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,680 summer mum, dad used to go and work in Spain, in the hotel in 161 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,400 Salao and and so we. And then he quite he quite liked 162 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:29,960 the fascists. Oh yes. 163 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,919 And I think, well, he always thought that we, everybody had 164 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:34,679 misinterpreted what Franco was about. 165 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,480 My first political memory is, is driving to the, in a misty day 166 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,440 when we were living in Madrid, driving to past Caravan Shell, 167 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,760 which was the political prison not far from where we lived in 168 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,160 Madrid and seeing all the guards that gather the Athi Ville with 169 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,800 their black patent leather Tricon hats, long capes and 170 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,600 submachine guns because Franco was coming to visit. 171 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,760 And that was my first memory of totalitarian or my impression of 172 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,920 totalitarian government. I mean, it was meant to inspire 173 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,200 fear and it did inspire fear. But dad's view was rather 174 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,000 different. He, he and, and hardly anybody 175 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,480 in those days, British people used to go to Spain because of 176 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,280 Franco. But we we did and we lived there 177 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,840 from from me for the age of 7 to 12. 178 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:26,920 I remember very clearly one day, we'd only recently arrived going 179 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,560 down, I was playing in the street. 180 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,240 I don't know what I was doing, playing with a stick and making 181 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,000 marks in the sand And some kids coming up to me and saying, oh, 182 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,480 yeah, oh, yeah, Oh yeah. Belli Rojo, ginger. 183 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,760 And and then tie me to a tree and flicking pine cones at me 184 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:45,680 because I couldn't speak Spanish. 185 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,320 So I learned Spanish pretty quickly. 186 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,280 But in terms of sort of how life might have. 187 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,560 Oh, but you were asking me how did I become the Tory that went 188 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:53,400 to Oxford? So. 189 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:56,360 So we. You know, were you, were you, 190 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,520 were you made a Tory basically by your upbringing. 191 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,280 Because I went, I went when we lived in Spain, I was sent back 192 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,680 to boarding school in Scotland. I tell some interesting stories 193 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:06,040 about boarding school in Scotland. 194 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,520 Sex comes into that as well. And then I went to Cheltenham 195 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,840 College because we'd moved back to the UK, We were living in 196 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,120 Cheltenham and the kind of expectation was that everybody 197 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,760 would be a Tory. Whoever went to Cheltenham 198 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,200 College, that I mean, it was built to produce soldiers or 199 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,200 administrators for the Raj. So that was the common kind of 200 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,960 expectation. Though what I did in at 201 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,480 Cheltenham College was act and singing choirs. 202 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,760 And so my life was kind of different. 203 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,360 But by by the time I arrived at Oxford, I was I, I was, I became 204 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,760 a member of the Conservative Party partly to make sure that 205 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,720 William Hay didn't win the the leadership of the Conservative 206 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,520 Association, which in which I succeeded. 207 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,400 Though he says everywhere that I wore a cravat every day, I was a 208 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,000 doctor. This is completely untrue. 209 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,640 I might have owned a cravat, but I'm not sure that I wore it. 210 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,120 What? Why did you dislike William 211 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,280 Hague? Because he was on the anti 212 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,080 European sort of hard line end of the Conservative Party, the 213 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,920 Thatcherite end of the Conservative Party. 214 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,760 And so, and during my time at Oxford, I, I certainly changed. 215 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,360 I think one of the things that also changed me was the National 216 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,120 Youth Theatre. So I first went to the National 217 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,000 Youth theatre when I was 15. I was the only public school 218 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,960 boy, I think in the, in the Myti absolutely loved it. 219 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,960 I met people from every other experience. 220 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,640 I was a 15 year old on my own in London without any parental 221 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,640 supervision and I had all the freedom in the world and that 222 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,720 sort of changed my outlook and stuff as well. 223 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,680 And then I went to Latin America as part of my training for the 224 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:51,720 priesthood in 1986 and I spent months in a shantytown in Peru, 225 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,040 in Lima, commerce and saw things. 226 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,360 I saw a country that had phenomenal wealth, I mean, such 227 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,240 extraordinary fruit and veg, and yet people who died of 228 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,800 starvation and a very violent continent. 229 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,680 And there was a curfew on at the time because of the activities 230 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,520 of Sendero Luminoso. And then I went, it was in 231 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,000 Argentina just after the dictatorship had ended, and I 232 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,000 knew friends who'd been tortured. 233 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,120 And then I was in Chile. I had to leave Chile. 234 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:23,920 So, so the journey from right to left was over that that period. 235 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,000 I mean, you also sort of imply from the book that it was, it 236 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,320 was Section 28 that. It was. 237 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,320 Certainly big you against the Tories. 238 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,680 Well, I couldn't understand why anybody would bring forward 239 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:41,600 legislation to restrict people's freedoms. 240 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,600 I just thought everybody should be treated equally under the 241 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,840 law. And of course, it mattered 242 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,640 personally to me as well. Yes. 243 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,560 And also I, I thought I saw, I suppose I was infuriated by 244 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:54,680 hypocrisy in the church, all sorts of different kinds of 245 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:56,360 hypocrisy. When I was at Theological 246 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:00,400 College, Cudston, there was a strange thing called the Deanery 247 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,640 of Muns. It was a toilet on the top floor 248 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,840 in the college. And the top floor had 12 rooms 249 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,720 and the 12:00 rooms could elect the new Dean who would be 250 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,880 enthroned on the toilet. And there was all sorts of 251 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,800 religious paraphernalia put in this toilet. 252 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,840 You could say it was harmless fun, except that mine was the 253 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,640 first year when there wasn't just one woman in the college. 254 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,800 There were 13 women in the college. 255 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,400 So suddenly the men, some of the men, in particular the gay men, 256 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,000 wanted to kind of ostracize the women. 257 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,040 And, and for us, some of us on the feminist liberal side who 258 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,560 wanted to sort the ordination of women and so on, getting rid of 259 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:41,480 the Deanery of Muns was a symbol. 260 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,720 So we just dismantled it. One night we took it all out and 261 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,120 dumped it outside the door of somebody who's actually now a 262 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:52,800 Bishop, and we were hounded. For the rest of that year nobody 263 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,520 would talk to us and that kind of hypocrisy in the church which 264 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,480 I associated with hypocrisy within the Tory party, all 265 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,520 became part of the same thing I. Mean obviously you've got to get 266 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,960 through a lot of stuff in a book like this. 267 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,680 So you're, you're covering 40 years, but there are two big 268 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:13,200 turning points in your life that I, I feel I kind of, I want more 269 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,680 on, you know, 1 is why you became a priest and the other is 270 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:21,280 why you went into politics. Now, when you talk about going 271 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,520 into the church, I mean you, you say you didn't have a sort of a 272 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,960 sudden religious calling a moment. 273 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,840 So what was it? Well, I had a sort of moment 274 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,880 which I describe in the book, which was we were, I was on tour 275 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,760 with the National Youth Theatre. We were taking two productions, 276 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,880 Richard the 2nd and Good Lads at Heart round Europe. 277 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,120 We opened the new Royal Theatre in The Hague, for instance, but 278 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:51,480 and it was when before a tech rehearsal for one of the shows 279 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,040 that I remember walking into a cathedral and having a feeling 280 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,600 that I should do something more with my life than just 281 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,000 frivolity. It's nothing more than that. 282 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,480 It's not sudden. I can't hear angels or anything 283 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,480 and there's not a great big finger pointing down at me and 284 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,720 say, you know, come and do this. But the church is quite a thing 285 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,120 to decide to do from that, isn't that? 286 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,000 I mean, there are all sorts of things you could have decided to 287 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,040 do. True. 288 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,760 And of course, in the end I ended, I, I chose other things 289 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:24,440 to do, but I, I think it was partly so my mum was alcoholic 290 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,360 in, in and it destroyed, you know, my teenage years were 291 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,760 really rough because of that. I ended up being the man of the 292 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,120 house. Dad left and that he was right 293 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,080 to leave because mum was such a mess. 294 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,000 I was doing the ironing, I was doing the cooking, I was doing 295 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,560 everything really in the house. And, and it, it was just on a 296 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,560 daily basis, it was just utter misery. 297 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,080 It was the lies. It was the, have you been 298 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,760 drinking, Mum? No, what's that water, Mum? 299 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,640 It's clearly vodka. And then, you know, the rows 300 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,400 and, and I said probably horrible, horrible things to mum 301 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,320 for which I still feel guilty. And she said horrible things 302 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,720 back and then she'd fall and then I'd be taking her to the 303 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,560 hospital or, and then or sometimes I took her through DTS 304 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,920 and all of that. And two things I think from that 305 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,800 that mattered were one was that I found that I was actually 306 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,840 quite a resilient person. I didn't fall apart. 307 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,920 And that's not because I'm a fundamentally good person. 308 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,200 It's just because I had some kind of strength which I thought 309 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,000 I shouldn't just use for myself. And the other thing is that 310 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,880 nearly everybody who supported me during those times was 311 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,840 involved in the church. My English teacher Tim Pearce at 312 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,040 Cheltenham College or in my final year. 313 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,200 Things at home were so terrible that I had to live with the 314 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,720 school chaplain and his wife, Sam and Margaret Salter. 315 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:59,320 And Margaret says, well, she's, she's no longer with us. 316 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,600 But Margaret used to say that because I was so grumpy at 317 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,240 breakfast time, they just used to leave me. 318 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,599 I still am instantly. They just used to leave me 319 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:09,920 completely on my own for 15 minutes with the Guardian. 320 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:12,760 And that's what changed my politics. 321 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,520 That's what she reckons my, my dad always read the Daily 322 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:16,920 Telegraph. Suddenly I was reading the 323 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,200 Guardian. So I think it's that 324 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,200 combination. And so it meant that the my 325 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,079 first day at Oxford, my first Sunday, I went to church. 326 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,760 I chose to go to church. Because you start off talking 327 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,480 about how there's another itch I can never scratch enough. 328 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,440 I have always wanted to change the world. 329 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,480 The sense that something just isn't fair drives me crazy. 330 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,480 I mean, is that a post hoc explanation of your life or is 331 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,440 that? Conscious of how you felt. 332 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,880 I, I, I think so the thing about alcoholism as a, as a child of 333 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,920 an alcohol is, is you just feel so powerless and it makes you so 334 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:53,680 angry. And then you feel guilty about 335 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,800 feeling angry with the person that you want to love. 336 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,840 And then you feel angry that they're making you feel guilty. 337 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,960 And so it's, it, I mean, it all gets wrapped up into this 338 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,240 horrible, horrible thing of powerlessness. 339 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,280 And so I, I mean in a way the, the, the thing that I think now 340 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,920 and, and it's, it was very striking to me when I was doing 341 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,520 the audio book. So reading it out six months 342 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,720 after the last take, as it were, that of when I've been writing 343 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,760 it. And what struck me was, well, 344 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,160 actually, you felt powerlessness. 345 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,240 You hate feeling powerless. And that's true today too. 346 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,600 And so you want to exercise power. 347 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,280 That's probably why I'm a politician. 348 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,000 Yes, well, that, that, that. Well, that was the next term, 349 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,960 isn't it? That you you, you leave the. 350 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,040 Church, but but I think also, I mean, it's worse. 351 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,600 I, you know, my, my theology, my religion was never, you know, 352 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,480 praying to a God with a great big beard up in the sky. 353 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,680 It was never that kind of it. Was primarily about helping 354 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,040 people rather than a spiritual. Well, I not not least because I, 355 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,320 I, I, I don't think Jesus was very interested in metaphysical 356 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,600 issues. He was much more interested in 357 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,280 practical teaching about how we live our lives here on this 358 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,440 earth. I mean, do do you, do you have 359 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,720 faith? Do you believe in? 360 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,480 Yes, I have. I have a faith, but it's the 361 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,160 faith I always had. How literal is it when it comes 362 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,480 to? Oh, it's never literal. 363 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,080 I mean, and, and, and fundamentalism I abhor in 364 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,840 politics or religion or anything like that. 365 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,520 I, I have a very pragmatic Christianity and I have a very 366 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,720 pragmatic understanding of politics that it's that that is 367 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,760 always the same. But I, I refer to a word that I 368 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,560 really, really love in Spanish, which is ochala. 369 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,840 It's a, it's actually a sort of Arabic word and it means I sort 370 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,480 of, I wish or would that or if only. 371 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,960 And, and that's a really strong part of what I, what every 372 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,560 single day I wake up with, which is if only I could change this, 373 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,640 if only I could be this, if only I could, if only Gaza were 374 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,040 different or whatever. I mean, it's hundreds and 375 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,360 hundreds of things that I feel that about all the time. 376 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,280 And sometimes that powerlessness is so oppressive that you, 377 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,080 that's when you you want to burst out with rage and change 378 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,040 the world. And, and that's why you decided 379 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,440 to go to party politics, which is why you wanted to be an MP, 380 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,440 because you thought, well, that that's how I can change the 381 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:12,880 world. Well, partly because I decided I 382 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,960 could no longer do the Church because I didn't want to end up 383 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,840 being a bitter, twisted priest in a parish, you know, not able 384 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,080 to leave the Tide Cottage because I couldn't afford it, 385 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:23,200 But. And no longer. 386 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,840 So you entered another deeply hypocritical world in which. 387 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:28,920 People. Well, no. 388 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,120 What I mean is in which people were were equally hiding their 389 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,800 sexuality and being hypocritical about all those sorts of things 390 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,520 as well. Well, I didn't think, I didn't 391 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,720 think of it that and I don't think of it in that way. 392 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,520 I think of it as a place where you have to be honest, as honest 393 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,200 as you can. And and incidentally, I mean, 394 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,720 one of the things that's strange about writing a book like this, 395 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,800 which is of course inherently narcissistic. 396 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,360 So I've made myself feel guilty about that as well. 397 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,920 And then crossing myself for feeling guilty is that you you 398 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,280 do have to check some of the things that you always thought 399 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,840 were facts. My mother always said that her 400 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,600 my father played for Glasgow Rangers. 401 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,320 I didn't believe her, but it's true. 402 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:15,080 He did amazingly and had pretty good good career footballing 403 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,320 career. But other things I've had to 404 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,000 check to make sure that my memory is actually accurate. 405 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,880 Which turned out not to be. Sometimes they it's turned out 406 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,800 to be no, I I can't possibly have been there. 407 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,800 I mean it just doesn't add up or or sometimes I've had to. 408 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,440 Things have been in in a wrong order in my mind and and working 409 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,520 out the order is kind of intriguing. 410 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,720 We'll, we'll come back to politics, but I mean, one of the 411 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,320 big stories that you've revealed is about the National Youth 412 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,120 Theatre in your time there. And you've, you've, you've done 413 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,000 this in the press as well. In that you've, you've revealed 414 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,800 that you were sexually abused by the founder of the National 415 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,160 Youth Theatre, Michael Croft. Why? 416 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,520 Why did you come out with this now? 417 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,440 How about how you know? Had you built up to it for a 418 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:06,160 long time? Had you? 419 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,240 So it's a story that's always been there. 420 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:18,000 No, it's something that sat in my heart for a very, very long 421 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:25,800 time because not because I feel particularly traumatized by it, 422 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,520 but because I feel all the shame and guilt that were not that I 423 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,680 think many gay young men at that time grew up with generally 424 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,480 about their own sexuality felt really concentrated in that 425 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,760 moment. I tell the story as matter of 426 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,160 factly as I can in the book, so I. 427 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,920 Why do you tell it matter of factly? 428 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,000 It's interesting that the way you tell it for something that's 429 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,680 so emotional. And I hadn't told many people at 430 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,840 all until two or three years ago. 431 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,960 And then when I told a couple of people then I couldn't stop 432 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,080 crying. So it probably is more, there's 433 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,520 probably more hurt in me about it than I would recognise or I 434 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:18,360 would want to recognise. And probably I like to think of 435 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,920 myself as resilient and so therefore I am resilient, if 436 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:27,280 that makes any kind of sense. So I told so in essence, I, I, 437 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,600 I'd done a years. I, I, I've been in the, I was in 438 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,760 the National Youth Theatre my first year on a course for in 439 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,960 when I was 15, I got to know Michael Croft. 440 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,400 He was the founder of the National Youth Theatre. 441 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,000 I clearly became a bit of a favorite and a protege fairly 442 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,480 quickly. The next spring I, he, he rang 443 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,520 up my mother and said, would Chris come and help with the 444 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,000 auditions in Bristol? I'm a 16 year old and I'd go and 445 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,480 stay in Bristol and stay overnight. 446 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,520 And you know, he, he, I mean in, in separate hotel rooms. 447 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,840 But nonetheless, you know, we go to dinner, he wants me to come 448 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,880 back and have a whiskey in his room with him and all that kind 449 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,000 of stuff. But I kind of work out very 450 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,680 quickly then. And when, when I then joined the 451 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,760 season that year that the best way to deal with Michael was to 452 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,520 make sure if he had another glass of port, he would fall 453 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,160 asleep and then it would be fine. 454 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,520 But he used to take me to dinner regularly. 455 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,040 We would chat. I would unburden myself about 456 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,840 all the stuff at home. I was, you know, that's this is 457 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,480 the the worst point in my with the stuff with mum and and then 458 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,800 one night my normal plan just didn't go right. 459 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,480 There wasn't any ports. I I was back at his house. 460 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,320 I went off to the loo. He came back. 461 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,920 He was just wearing a kind of silk dressing gown and nothing 462 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,960 underneath apart and said, he said come and suck on this. 463 00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:52,280 And I, I mean, of course it's terrible. 464 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,080 It's, you know, he was abusing his position of trust as much as 465 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,280 anything else. And I know there are other 466 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,080 people in the National Youth Theatre who went through the 467 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,240 same and who went through much, much, much, much worse. 468 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,800 After that. Michael never did it again. 469 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,680 And I ended up doing his funeral because he asked me to. 470 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,680 Yes, I mean your you know your your friendship, relationship 471 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,480 with him our. Friendship indeed, and. 472 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,560 How do you explain that now? I mean, do you, do you think you 473 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,080 were sort of basically still groomed or, or, or was it a 474 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,600 genuine friendship? I mean, what you know, you 475 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,200 officiated at his funeral, I mean. 476 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,120 I think it was a genuine friendship and I didn't. 477 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,800 I didn't feel destroyed by it, but I know that there were 478 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,360 others who had put him much, much worse situations than me. 479 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,520 And one of the reasons I decided to, to include it in the book 480 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:48,960 was because I, I, I know that there are others and I, and I 481 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,720 mean, the response since this came out in some of the press, I 482 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,040 mean, most, the vast majority of people have been gorgeous and 483 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,640 lovely and, and very supportive and understanding. 484 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,440 Some people have been utterly vile, you know, and said, you 485 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,880 know, aid refused to believe me, said it's just despicable. 486 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,400 You're just trying to sell a book and all that kind of stuff. 487 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,600 And and that's when you kind of realise why lots of women never 488 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,880 go to the police when they've been raped, why lots of people 489 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:24,600 have never bothered to say when they've been abused, because you 490 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,360 end up getting as much of the abuse in social media as anybody 491 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:31,600 else did. Why do you think people have 492 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,240 some people have reacted like that? 493 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,280 Is it? Is it because they knew him or 494 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,280 is it? No, no, no, no. 495 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,240 Oh, I have. No, I've, I've not spoken to 496 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,760 anybody who knew Michael. Who's that? 497 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,160 No, these, these are people just emailing me because it's easy to 498 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,440 find an MP, isn't it? And send them an e-mail or send 499 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,360 them a message on social media. And I mean, look, I'm, I'm not, 500 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:05,120 I don't, I refuse to be a victim in it, if you see what I mean. 501 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,840 Yes. I'm telling what happened 502 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,640 because I I think that too often abuse of that nature happened in 503 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,880 a lot of organizations and nobody ever owned up to it. 504 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,720 And that is a fundamental failing and we need to change 505 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,840 that whole culture. That's why I told the story. 506 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,160 And you, you, you, you sort of brought the National Youth 507 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,880 Theatre in on your. Completely. 508 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,280 Oh yeah, no, I mean I, I. Told and I should say they they 509 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,360 sort of said that they, you know, they've got safeguarding, 510 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,960 you know, practices in place now and then I. 511 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,000 I've talked through all their safeguarding practices and I 512 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,360 know that the National Youth Theatre is a fundamentally safe 513 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:46,720 place and I and I think any modern youth organization would 514 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,200 be absolutely well apart from the else. 515 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,560 The law is much clearer now than it ever was, and everybody knows 516 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040 what their responsibilities are. Yeah, what do you. 517 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,680 I mean, I, I should also say just for transparency, I'm on 518 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,560 the Development Board of the National Youth Theatre was also 519 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,560 in it as you were about 10 years after you, but. 520 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,760 Oh, so you're younger than me? Is that the point you're? 521 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,000 Making no, no, I I was just very slow, but but I just say that 522 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,240 just for. I mean, I think that so I, and I 523 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,800 think that you think it's a wonderful organization and, and, 524 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,600 and if, if I'm weighing the balance of was the National 525 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,280 Youth Theatre good for me or not? 526 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,840 It was 100% transformative in a wonderful, wonderful way. 527 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,480 It's not just that all those, you know, vocal exercises, 528 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,240 pataka pataka, pataka pataka Papa get a petal copper plate to 529 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,280 kettle, all of that kind of stuff. 530 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,120 It's, it's, it gave me a different set, a new family. 531 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,680 I mean, Ed Wilson, who was Michael Croft's successor, and 532 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,920 Brian Lee, they were absolutely adorable with me. 533 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,920 I went on holiday with them and Daniel Craig and others and, and 534 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,360 they were really important to me when I was leaving the church 535 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,040 because they were church people as well. 536 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,200 They were really important to me in in providing me with that 537 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,800 kind of transition into a new world. 538 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,800 And how can we be more confident now that these? 539 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,680 Well, I certainly am in, in relation to the National Youth 540 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,680 Theatre because, and I've gone through all, you know, they've 541 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,880 talked me through all the, everything that happens and it 542 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,080 is extremely rigorous. Nobody works in the National 543 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,080 Youth Theatre unless they've gone through not just the simple 544 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,240 BDSM checks, but the, but the full second level as well. 545 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,320 And, and I, I, I mean, I tell another story in the book about 546 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,080 when I went, when I applied to Oxford and I was interviewed by 547 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,880 a tutor at Saint Kat's and he made me read out a, an essay on 548 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,840 a poem by Shelley Montblanc, which is a difficult poem, 549 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,240 sitting on a toilet whilst he lay in the bath soaping himself. 550 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,440 Now, I mean, some people said to me, well, why haven't, why, why 551 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,320 didn't you report that? Well, because I, I assumed I 552 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,160 wouldn't then get into Oxford. So of course I didn't. 553 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,320 And that's the abuse, isn't it? It's the abuse of the position 554 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,440 of trust and of power that that still makes me really, really 555 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,680 angry. Do you think it makes you a 556 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,240 better politician? Well, I, I don't think there's 557 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,440 any points to a politician unless they've got some kind of 558 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,880 edge to them and, and an understanding of humanity and 559 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,000 what it is to, to be human and take some of the knocks. 560 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,240 And there are lots of different ways of, you know, taking the 561 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,240 knocks and proving your resilience in life, I suppose. 562 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,080 And I think you want people to be resilient but also sensitive 563 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,040 enough to the world around them that they don't, you know, that 564 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,480 they're not completely out of touch. 565 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:34,760 Yeah. And I suppose this this comes 566 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,280 back to sort of the, what the real Chris Bryant is, I suppose, 567 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,360 you know, in terms of sort of when you talk about edge, do you 568 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,560 see yourself as that person who has to kick from the inside? 569 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,440 Yes, I I, I mean. You know you join all these 570 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,840 establishments, Yes. Do you know do you do that? 571 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,760 Oh, I've always wanted to fit in. 572 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,400 To fit in rather than. Change them? 573 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,200 Yeah, well, no, I've wanted to fit in, but also to change them. 574 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,800 And that's a difficult. I mean, you know, when you're a 575 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,280 I'm a minister. I'm not here as a minister now, 576 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,400 but I'm a minister in the government and I'm part of a 577 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,600 team and I and I and I always want to be part of a team. 578 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,480 I think teamwork is it's why I'm a socialist. 579 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,120 And I would use the word socialist to quote John Dunne, 580 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,800 no man is an island in tar and to himself seek not to know for 581 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,120 whom the bell tolls. It tolls for the I am a part of 582 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:30,760 humanity and I I am passionate about that. 583 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,120 But it's funny, some people have looked at the photos in the book 584 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,120 and they said you still stand in exactly the same way as when you 585 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,120 were a 7 year old child with one my right foot always slightly 586 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,880 forward. And I think Matthew Paris in his 587 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,640 autobiography wrote that you, you can never really understand 588 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,400 the man unless you've understood the, the, the child because it, 589 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,480 that's when you feel most keenly and so on. 590 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,000 I'm, I'm not sure that's entirely true. 591 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,760 I still feel just as keenly as ever before. 592 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,560 But I think all the things that course through my veins now 593 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,360 course through my veins when I was an 8910 year old. 594 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,560 Yes, but I but I suppose what having joined, well, wanting to 595 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,960 join the team and be part of the team can sometimes make people 596 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:19,240 then look away, shut up, keep quiet, not complain, not demand 597 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,160 more. Are you, are you one of those or 598 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,320 are you one of those people who internally is more of a 599 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,000 troublemaker, wants to kick against things, wants to change 600 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,880 things? I don't think of myself as a 601 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,680 troublemaker, but I do think of myself as being independently 602 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,840 minded. There's a funny thing, you know, 603 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,280 there's a, there's a photo in the book of me theoretically in 604 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,200 the cricket team at school when I'm 12, I think, except 605 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,000 everybody else is in cricket wise and I'm, I'm the scorer. 606 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,320 So I'm part of the team, but I'm not really part of the team. 607 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,040 And, and weirdly I've got my eyes closed. 608 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,800 I don't know why. Maybe it's just the way that 609 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,840 maybe it's just the way the photo was taken. 610 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:07,160 But, and I sometimes feel that's me, that I'm in the team, but 611 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:12,800 just slightly to one side, which is maybe that's what a Labour 612 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,040 person always feels. Because you, you, you don't want 613 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,400 to accept the world the way it is. 614 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,360 You do want to change it, whether it's the establishment 615 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,280 or it's just the world. I mean, you know, I remember 616 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,440 when I was at theological college, it used to drive me 617 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,640 insane if people asked us to sing. 618 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,360 The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, God made 619 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,080 them high and lowly and ordered their estate. 620 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,920 I mean, where on earth did anybody get that idea from? 621 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,560 Not from Jesus. But but it's interesting that 622 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,000 that you joined institutions where as a gay man, you, you 623 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,880 know, you were not easily going to be accepted as part of the 624 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,680 team ever and and what you know and arguably may still not be. 625 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:55,720 No. Well, it's interesting in 626 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,240 politics. And you didn't go in, you didn't 627 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,040 stick with acting where you probably could have been 628 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,800 accepted as part of the team. Why do you think that is? 629 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,560 I don't know, I mean. You know you. 630 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,639 Politics for me started my first elected office, was a Hackney 631 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:19,400 councillor, and I tell some awful stories about what Hackney 632 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,159 politics was like back in those days. 633 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:26,440 Absolutely vile and horrible homophobia being thrown around 634 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,360 all over the place. I, you know, but I also tell 635 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,080 stories of phenomenal gay abandoned at a particular time. 636 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,920 My I, the day I had stopped being a vicar. 637 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,280 So my last sermon was at Peterborough Cathedral on Maundy 638 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,280 Thursday in 1991. I drive down to London. 639 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,800 All my furniture has gone ahead of me and is now stacked up in 640 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,960 a, in a flat in London, in Hackney. 641 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,400 I walk in the flat and I think, oh Lord, I'm not going to do 642 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,880 anything about this now. So I put on the tight white 643 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,440 T-shirt and a pair of Levi fiber ones, the official, you know, 644 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,880 regulation uniform of the day for a gay man. 645 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,960 Go off to the London Apprentice, a club that no longer exists, 646 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,000 whether it's Black Walls, walk up to the bar, order myself a 647 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,840 pint. And then suddenly realized, just 648 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,360 as it's already been poured, that I haven't got my wallet 649 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,400 with me. And a young man standing next to 650 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,800 me, balls, shorts, ginger with a Glaswegian accent, said to me, 651 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,040 it's all right, I'll pay and you don't even have to have sex with 652 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,440 me. And it was Jimmy Somerville 653 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,040 who's who'd provided the, the, the, the kind of soundtrack to 654 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,560 my life, as it were, of, of coming out. 655 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,920 And and that was a phenomenal period of change in the 1990s, 656 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,880 AIDS still around, very much so. And and a generation of gay men 657 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,320 slightly older than me had all gone. 658 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,080 All gone. But if that's what you mean by 659 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,520 the period of liberation, do you that's the 90s? 660 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,160 The 90s yeah, completely before I became an MP and and then I 661 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,400 worked for the BBC, did various different things, worked for the 662 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,840 Labour Party for a while. I was there kind of at the 663 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,680 beginning of New Labour. First met Peter Mandelson in The 664 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,720 Changing. Room I was YMCA You you, you 665 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,680 tell a couple of funny stories about Peter Mandelson in the 666 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,040 changing room with the YMCA and also in a in in a couple of gay 667 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,200 bars. Yes, we went to Paris to go 668 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,360 there once. Picking up people. 669 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:24,400 Picking, well, I'm not sure he'd managed in the end, but yes, he 670 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,840 was trying. Though. 671 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,160 I think my favorite is I was dating a Spanish architect at 672 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,680 the time called Federico, and in Madrid, and the only person who 673 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,680 D won any elections anywhere in Europe for years, on the left 674 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,520 was Philippe Gonzalez, the leader of the Spanish Socialist 675 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,080 Party. And so I was staying with 676 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,280 Federico for a couple of weeks and Peter decided to invite 677 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,480 himself because there was a general election in Spain and he 678 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,440 wanted to see how they won elections. 679 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,280 So Peter came and stayed with us, and I then went around with 680 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,160 him to all the various party election meetings and did all 681 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,440 the translating for him. We were at the very last kind of 682 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,680 reception or big kind of rally of the campaign. 683 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,400 Pedro had just done Philippe, rather had just done his big 684 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,320 speech. And we were asked, would we like 685 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,840 to come and meet Philippe Gonzalez? 686 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,760 And I'm really, really excited thinking this is my political 687 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,560 hero. And Peter goes, no, I want to 688 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,360 meet him over there. So we went and chatted to 689 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,080 Antonio Banderas for half an hour instead, and then he sent 690 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,200 me back for his autograph. Have you have you checked any of 691 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,960 these stories with him? But he doesn't mind putting them 692 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,080 out. Members that story. 693 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,200 There's there's a particularly funny one in a bar of him 694 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,360 pretending to be someone he isn't. 695 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,640 Well, yes, because he, so we were in a bar. 696 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,840 We were in Le Quezal in Paris, which has a very long but, or 697 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,440 used to have, I don't know whether it exists anymore 698 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,800 actually, but it had a very long bar. 699 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,320 And Peter's going I like him over there and I go, why are you 700 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,640 going to? No, you go and tell him what I 701 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,400 I'm not going to tell him that you fancy him. 702 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,640 You can do your own dirty work. Anyway, eventually he does go 703 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,640 over to him and he says hello, my name is Mark. 704 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,360 And the guy goes, no, it's not. You're Peter Mandelson. 705 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,520 We were at Oxford together. They then chatted away for the 706 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,680 rest of the evening. But anyway, yes, my husband 707 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,680 said. All right, there are too many 708 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,440 Peter Mandelson stories. But have you, have you checked 709 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,600 with Lord Mandelson as he is now? 710 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:07,880 I have. He's OK. 711 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,320 Well, I checked the Bishop story. 712 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,120 There's quite a few bishops, Well, and for that matter, drag 713 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,000 Queens in the book as well. Quite a lot of drag Queens. 714 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,520 I used to love Julie Paid, who used to perform at Molly Moggs 715 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,960 and used to get on the bus with the mic while singing, I don't 716 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,480 know, a baccarat song or something like that. 717 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:31,400 Get Sorry, I Can boogie or yes Sir, I'm a Lady, Carry on 718 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,240 singing on the bus as it went up Tottenham Court Road. 719 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,800 There are Japanese tourists looking completely enough 720 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,400 bemused, let alone the people sitting on the bus. 721 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,920 I mean, so it's come back to sort of changing the world. 722 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,080 I mean, you've been in politics for a couple of decades now. 723 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,280 I mean, is the fact that you stayed in it an indicator that 724 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,800 you think you are succeeding? Succeeding. 725 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,840 I mean, there's, I think there are things that I'm really, 726 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,160 really proud of that I fought for over the years. 727 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,760 I, I think I'm probably, I was probably the first person in the 728 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,440 British Parliament who called out Putin long, long before 729 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,640 2014. And I was certainly the only 730 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,520 person in 2014 who said if, if we allow him to take Crimea, he 731 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:15,960 will come for the rest of Ukraine. 732 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,080 And I got condemned as a warmonger for it and all the 733 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:24,080 rest of it back in 2014. I'm proud of the campaign I've 734 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,920 run on acquired brain injury over the years, partly because 735 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,880 of people playing rugby in South Wales and the concussions that 736 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,760 they suffered at the time have led to early onset dementia and 737 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,160 cognitive problems and depression and anxiety and all 738 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,200 sorts of things. I'm proud of the fact that I was 739 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,600 the minister that took forward the abolition of trust 740 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,880 ammunitions. I'm proud of what we've the deal 741 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,120 we've just done for musicians from with the record labels. 742 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,200 So yes, there's there's stuff, but it's all for me. 743 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,760 It's about getting things done. It really is about getting 744 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,080 things done. It's great when we win elections 745 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,400 because then we can get things done. 746 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,840 When you're in opposition, all you can do is throw bridges, 747 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,640 throw bridges, throw snowballs at people standing on the 748 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,920 bridge. I mean, you talk about crying 749 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,000 with Frank Dobson losing the 92 election. 750 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,440 I was Frank Dobson's election agent in 19 Two and mostly 751 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,680 working actually on Glenda Jackson's campaign next door. 752 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,680 And that led to a whole load of other stories. 753 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,840 But, and yes, Frank was the shadow energy secretary, so he 754 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,360 would have been the Secretary of State for energy, I guess. 755 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,640 And we would probably have introduced the miners 756 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,400 compensation scheme in 1992 if we'd won. 757 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:38,520 And I was driving him around the day after the election with a, 758 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,080 you know, megaphone saying thank you for voting Labour. 759 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,840 And then we had to stop. And the both the two of us sat 760 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:51,080 crying for a good 15 or 20 minutes until a traffic warden 761 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,120 tapped on the car and said, you're in a double yellow line. 762 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,840 And I think that that instilled in me a sense that you had to 763 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,200 take the nation with you. You couldn't just presume that 764 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,600 you were going to win because the the other side were rubbish. 765 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,520 But I mean, in terms of, you know, the things that make you 766 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,160 cry with rage now, I mean, you know, the accomplishments you've 767 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,840 mentioned, I don't want to denigrate them in any way, but 768 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,360 they are not the central causes of either the Labour Party or 769 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,280 the OR the government, the old government, you know, the last 770 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:25,600 Labour government or this government. 771 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,680 I mean, you know, is, is the truth that, you know, being in 772 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,560 politics is a bit disappointing. No, completely not and. 773 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,080 You know that you don't change the world as you would like. 774 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,800 To oh, no, because you changed the world person by person, step 775 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,080 by step and, and, and lot lots of little things. 776 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:51,360 I mean, sometimes I get asked what is it similar being an, a 777 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,640 constituency MP to being a, a priest? 778 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,760 It's identical, absolutely identical. 779 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,080 I remember, you know, when I, when I was a priest, my first 780 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,280 visit to an elderly lady, the lady died with my hat and I was 781 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,040 holding her hand as she died. I was giving her communion a few 782 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,960 weeks ago, somebody came to my constituency surgery and he'd 783 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,240 made a terrible decision 14 years ago and everything else 784 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:18,120 following on had just been a series of places where there 785 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,520 wasn't a good decision available to him anymore. 786 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,120 And we've managed to sort it out for him. 787 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,080 I mean, that is just, that is just such a phenomenal privilege 788 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,440 to be able to be alongside somebody in that way as an MP. 789 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:36,080 And I, and it's the bit that we have uniquely in our system that 790 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,600 lots of other systems don't have. 791 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,800 I mean, you know, if I speak to a Spanish MP or a French MP, 792 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,600 they just don't have that part of their equation. 793 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,960 And I I adore that part of it. So when, when you hear the sort 794 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,440 of the, the rage of the electorate now you know that 795 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,560 sense well, you know you've got into power and you're making, 796 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,200 making a mess of it and you know you're not doing anything fast 797 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,200 enough and you're not changing Britain the way you promised you 798 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,120 would. I mean, do you understand that? 799 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,360 Do you feel as well? I, I feel all the impatience. 800 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,200 I mean, I'm a very impatient person. 801 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,280 You could argue many times that's been my undoing. 802 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,840 I, I've run at a gate far too fast and, and I feel all that 803 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,680 impatience myself. I want to get things done this 804 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,440 afternoon, not wait until next week. 805 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,040 And sometimes when you've got to wait for the grid to say yes, 806 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,720 you can announce this, you go. I mean, isn't it very, I mean, 807 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,680 you know, you're a minister, you're part of the, you're in 808 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,480 the team that you wanted to be in the team. 809 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,560 And that with that comes the responsibility of not 810 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,640 criticizing it, taking ministerial responsibility. 811 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,440 Isn't that really frustrating as well? 812 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,200 I mean, you know, but you can't shout about the thing that's 813 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,280 making you angry. Well, you can't shout publicly, 814 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:43,800 but you could. But but you also have the 815 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,960 privilege of being behind the scenes and being able to say, 816 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,600 right, what is the best version of what we can sort out here? 817 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:56,240 And, and I'm very proud. I, I, I am absolutely adoring 818 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,800 the work that I'm able to do at the moment, whether it's, you 819 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,880 know, highly technical stuff that I'm doing around telecoms 820 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,840 or space or whatever, or data for that matter. 821 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,080 Or it's, you know, trying to sort out British artists, being 822 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,320 able to tour around Europe and getting creative education for 823 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,920 every child in every school in the country, all that kind of 824 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,280 stuff. I mean, it is my passion and I'm 825 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,720 very excited about it and I feel free to be able to push the 826 00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:23,040 boundaries of what is achievable. 827 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,120 But on the bigger picture, what do you say to people when they 828 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,600 confront you with their disappointment? 829 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,080 Well, AI understand the the frustration and the impatience I 830 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,680 I equally get frustrated when people want us to have transfer 831 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:42,360 transformed the world in 50 minutes when you know it takes 832 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,800 it takes a long time to run a country down and it takes a long 833 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,560 time to get it back on its feet. But it's. 834 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,960 Difficult, isn't it? Because people look at America 835 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,160 now and they go, well, look at Donald Trump. 836 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:54,800 He's only been in power a few months and he seems to be 837 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,960 changing things. Why? 838 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,680 Why? Why don't you change things? 839 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,000 Not in the same way perhaps, but well, a, because I don't think 840 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,040 you would want to change them in the same way and take time. 841 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:05,760 Well, and. Secondly, we don't have a 842 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,080 presidential system and I and I guess there are some people who 843 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,600 would want us to have a presidential system. 844 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,640 I would wholeheartedly disagree. But you've got a massive 845 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,160 majority, so you can do whatever you want. 846 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,280 Well, no, you can't. And, and, and everything else 847 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,520 I've written about in the past is, you know, is, is about, I, I 848 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,120 do believe in the parliamentary system. 849 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,480 I believe that you have to, not least because it means you have 850 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,400 to be a team player. I always thought that one of the 851 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,440 problems with with Boris was that Boris Johnson would be a 852 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,760 great person, maybe in a, in a system, in a presidential 853 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,760 system, but it just doesn't work in a parliamentary system. 854 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,400 And that's why I think you have to trust in making sure that the 855 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,560 team works more effectively as a unit rather than just as 856 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,240 individuals. I mean, you're a Welsh MP and 857 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:54,160 people are people are suggesting that reform will win in Wales. 858 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,480 Do you do you think that's likely? 859 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,880 I know I look like Mystic Meg, but I'm not Mystic Meg and I'm 860 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,360 really I I've always thought Harriet Harman taught me 861 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,360 something years ago which she she said when you're an MP you 862 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,320 are not a commentator, you're a player. 863 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,320 So. But you see the threat. 864 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,080 Of course I see the threat and, and I and and I see the 865 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,640 monstrous misinformation and, and, and I, I, you know, we've 866 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,400 seen it many times. It's easy to build a grievance, 867 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,440 always easy to build a grievance in politics, 10 times more 868 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,800 difficult to be able to sort out a solution. 869 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,240 I mean, I, I, I watched your interview the other day with 870 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,680 Andrew Jenkins and I just thought, yeah, OK, so you, 871 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,200 you've spotted the problem and you know how to wind up the 872 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,000 grievance, but not you. But you, you haven't got an 873 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,840 answer. You haven't got an answer to a 874 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,200 single one of the things that you think is a problem. 875 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,400 So look, I mean, I, I think we are there to do 2 things as a 876 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,160 government. The first is we are there to put 877 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,880 right the things that have been broken. 878 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,320 The classic incidents I think is a prison system in the UK. 879 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,200 We just haven't got enough prisons for the prisoners that 880 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,640 we want to put in prison. So we should sort that and, and, 881 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,920 and the, and the previous government knew that they were 882 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,320 given endless advice to that effect and did nothing about it. 883 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,320 So that's the kind of thing where we've just got to put 884 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,000 things right, we've got to mend them and that will take time. 885 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,840 And then the second thing is we've already, we've got to make 886 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,880 sure that everybody gets a decent chance in life. 887 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,480 And I know from my constituency it says this more loudly perhaps 888 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,560 than any other in the country, that lots of people don't get a 889 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,840 decent chance in life. It's. 890 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,760 That's easier said than done, isn't it? 891 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,840 Oh, completely. Of course, because your. 892 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,000 Career is very interesting because you know, you span that 893 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,120 period of that you talk about of great sort of hope in the 90's, 894 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,920 the beginning of New Labour, you know, the, the Tony Blair 895 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,040 government and you know, and then opposition and then this. 896 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,160 And a lot of people thought this would be the same. 897 00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,440 You just rerun the same plays, not as New Labour in the late 898 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,160 90s, and it'll all be fine. And it's turned out not to be 899 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:58,640 the case. It's completely different and 900 00:47:58,640 --> 00:47:59,400 I'll tell you from. What? 901 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,040 So how has politics changed over that 20 year period? 902 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,000 Well, social media has fundamentally changed 903 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,760 everything. So you don't have, you know, 3 904 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,160 News programs everyday telling, giving you a curated version of 905 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:18,560 what is, is today's news. You have millions of people, 906 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,240 some of them with good intent and some with not good intent, 907 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,800 stirring the pot, getting their version of out there and so on. 908 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,560 And, and some elements of that I absolutely adore, but some of it 909 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,640 is, we know, profoundly scurrilous and deliberately 910 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,280 manufactured for effect. So. 911 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,680 So that's a much more difficult place to navigate. 912 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,200 Do you think your generation has worked out how to do politics in 913 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,120 this world? Now of course we haven't, I 914 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,440 mean, I think it's really tough and, and boy, I mean, I look at 915 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,760 the new intake of MPs. I think they're phenomenal. 916 00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:01,600 I, I have not seen such a good intake of MPs as there is, I'm 917 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,360 not, I'm talking dominantly about Labour because that's what 918 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,120 I know. But I look at people in other 919 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,280 parties as well and there's some phenomenal MPs there and it can 920 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,720 be a very frustrating process being a backbench MPI spent most 921 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:18,080 of my time as an MP. I've been a backbencher, I've 922 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,920 relished it and I've enjoyed it. In that quote that I put to you 923 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,280 before you said the The sense that something just isn't fair 924 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,320 drives me crazy. An inexplicable rage boils up 925 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,280 inside me. Sometimes it's a furious refusal 926 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,560 to accept that something is happening. 927 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,200 What is it that's got you boiling right now? 928 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:47,480 Ukraine, I feel so angry. I mean, obviously predominantly 929 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:53,760 with Putin. And I feel very proud actually 930 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,160 of the role that Keir Starmer and other Western leaders have 931 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,280 played in making sure that we step up to the mark to make sure 932 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,480 that Ukraine isn't just abandoned. 933 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,680 This was so not only predictable, but predicted. 934 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,480 And that that makes me so angry. And, and I was on the Foreign 935 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:18,080 Affairs Committee. We went not, we went to Kiev 2 936 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:24,280 weeks before the 2nd invasion and we were advised not to go to 937 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,120 the to to the Donbass region. We said, well, we're here, we're 938 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,440 going. And every step of the way they 939 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,200 kept on saying you mustn't, you mustn't, you mustn't, you 940 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:33,520 mustn't. It isn't safe and say, well, 941 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,880 we're going. We went to Abdiv Abdivgah right 942 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,280 on the border with what, what was then the division line with 943 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,880 Russians. And we could see Russian snipers 944 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,960 pointing at at ours and at Ukrainian forces. 945 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,400 And I mean, we just knew this was going to happen. 946 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,480 And I feel still so angry that Russia lied and lied and lied 947 00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:02,320 and lied and David Cameron and William Hague and Boris Johnson 948 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:07,160 completely surrendered Crimea to Russia and we failed and I don't 949 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,320 want us to fail again. I. 950 00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,320 Thought you were going to say Gaza actually. 951 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,400 It's interesting that you you reach for Ukraine first. 952 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:24,160 Well, of course, I mean the, how can you watch either the events, 953 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:28,600 you know, the of, of, of the attack, the Hamas attack on 954 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:33,840 Israel or what's happened in the last 18 months and not feel 955 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,680 absolute fury and want to do something. 956 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,000 And how can you not feel guilt about not being able to do more 957 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,720 and, and what would more look like and how could you make more 958 00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:48,840 happen, Of course, all the time, every single day, every time you 959 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,360 watch the news. How can you not feel that? 960 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,040 I suppose that's why you carry on. 961 00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:01,600 Yes, because some, I, I was asked the other day, well, you 962 00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:02,840 know, what have you ever achieved? 963 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,760 And I, you know, sometimes I list the small things, but of 964 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:08,960 course I'm also part of a much bigger team. 965 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,000 And then I, you know, in my time as a politician, we've managed 966 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:18,680 to get a minimum wage in place, we've managed to put legislation 967 00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,680 in place which enables women, more women to be able to come 968 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,320 forward around rape. We've changed the law in so many 969 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,040 ways that I think has improved society. 970 00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,120 We've introduced an Equality Act, all of these things that I 971 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,840 passionately believe in. And I think we are making a 972 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,400 better world that there's a hymn I always used to laugh at. 973 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,000 Nearer and nearer draws the time, the time that will surely 974 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,720 be when the earth should be filled with the glory of God and 975 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:50,040 the waters cover the sea. But it starts with that idea of, 976 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,640 of when on earth is everything going to change? 977 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,160 And, and I just, I just still hold on to that faith about 978 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,440 politics, which is nearer. Nearer draws the time, the time 979 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,880 that will surely be. Chris Bryant, Sir. 980 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,200 Chris, thank you very much indeed. 981 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,000 Always sounds like I'm a pantomime Dame. 982 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,480 Well, that's it for this episode of The Forecast. 983 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,880 Until next time, bye bye.