1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,640 There is no other option. Rather than the two state 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,240 solution. The alternative is constantly 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,240 war. Let us agree about the rights of 4 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,800 the two people. The only group that has the 5 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,680 right to exercise some determination is the Jewish 6 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,160 people. What about me? 7 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,240 Why I have to be second class citizen? 8 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:21,080 Hassan is talking all the time using the phrases genocide and 9 00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:23,960 apartheid. I think you're using phrases 10 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,120 that are just being bandied about without anybody knowing. 11 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,000 What genocide? Is no Anybody knows? 12 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,200 Well, it's been defined now. Mass killing of people, mass 13 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,000 destruction of infrastructure of people, this is. 14 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,040 Genocide 2. State solution is really 15 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,160 drowning in the details as nobody can agree on what you're 16 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:45,880 actually talking about. If there is a step towards 17 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:51,040 progress, what is the next step you think is achievable? 18 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,760 Hello and welcome to a special extended forecast, a more cast 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,040 if you like, which is coming to you from the King David Hotel in 20 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,440 Jerusalem, one of the most famous hotels in this city. 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,320 It's historic. It was once the base of the 22 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:16,280 British Palestine Mandate before the creation of Israel. 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,320 And we are here because we have recently had AUN General 24 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:26,200 Assembly resolution passed calling for A2 state solution 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,600 sponsored by Saudi Arabia and France. 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,960 We are seeing Britain, France, Belgium, Canada, Australia all 27 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:39,120 going through the process of recognising A Palestinian state, 28 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,360 whatever that may mean, while the American say that state is 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,840 in fact no nearer to reality. But all of those countries also 30 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,440 talk about a two state solution, whereas in Israel, in this 31 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,160 country, the government rejects the idea of A2 state solution. 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,280 Hamas in Gaza have also traditionally rejected the idea 33 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,800 of A2 state solution. So what does it mean? 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,440 Is it realistic? Is it possible? 35 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,440 What are the obstacles? We have an eminent panel with us 36 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,520 here today in Jerusalem. Alan Baker is from the Institute 37 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,120 of Contemporary Affairs. He's a international lawyer and 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,840 he was also involved in drafting the Oslo Accords. 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,600 Tova Lazarov is a journalist and commentator, formerly deputy 40 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,720 managing editor of the Jerusalem Post Jarev Oppenheimer is a 41 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,000 activist. He formerly ran the Peace Now 42 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,640 organization and is a strong advocate of the two state 43 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,480 solution from an Israeli perspective. 44 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:51,560 And Hassan Jaberin runs an organization called Adala, which 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,000 is a legal centre for Palestinians in this land. 46 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,240 Thank you all very much indeed for joining us. 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,840 I mean, let's begin with the the people who think this is 48 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,360 possible if you like, because you you talk to so many people 49 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,800 in Israel and they'll say the two state solution time has 50 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,000 gone. You know, nobody's talking about 51 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,920 that right now. The hostages are still being 52 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:16,040 held. Forget it. 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,160 It's not going to happen. Jarif, why do you think it is 54 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,360 real and that it could be delivered? 55 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,880 First of all, there is no other option rather than the two state 56 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,360 solution, the alternative is what we are saying today, that 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:33,840 Israel is trying to control the Palestinians, maybe to expel the 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,760 Palestinians. And the outcome of that is a war 59 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,880 and it's constantly war. This will be the the the future. 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:46,080 It's this is what we are trying to do Physically there is a 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,600 chance for the two state solution. 62 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,120 Nothing dramatic says change in the West Bank. 63 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,240 It's true that half a million of Israelis are living there, but 64 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,160 most of them are living in the cities very close to the green 65 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,560 line and you can annex it into Israel and to have swap 66 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,680 territories. The question here is not about 67 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,240 the physical option of the two state solution. 68 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:10,040 It's about the motivation of Israelis and Palestinians. 69 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,640 And when I look at the Palestinians, I believe that 70 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:17,120 today they are much more eager than ever to get some kind of a 71 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:22,160 hope to change their destiny and to have a state next to Israel. 72 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,920 When I look at the Israeli society, unfortunately we are in 73 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,960 a minority right now. Most of the people don't want 74 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,920 it, afraid of it and wish to have the bigger Israel. 75 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,560 I think that the main obstacle for the two state solution is 76 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,640 not the Hamas, is not the Palestinians, is not the 77 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,480 settlers, because the number of the settlers that are living in 78 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:46,200 the heart of the West Bank is not is is didn't go up rapidly. 79 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:52,760 It's about the motivation of the Israeli white wing to block the 80 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,880 chance for the two state solution and to do whatever they 81 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,000 can physically and in the mind of the Israelis in order to make 82 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,840 it an impossible option. But it's the only option. 83 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:05,440 What difference do you think these moves have made, if any? 84 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,160 Or are these moves that we think are important in London and 85 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,160 Paris and New York, but actually make no difference, the 86 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,880 international movement, the resolution, the recognition? 87 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,840 First of all, I think that we need to show the alternative for 88 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,760 the war and the alternative for the occupation, and the only 89 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,440 alternative to the occupation and to the war is to have a 90 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,520 peace agreement and to have the two state solution. 91 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,960 There will not be any other solution that will guarantee 92 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,400 Israel to be a Jewish democratic state and a peaceful region, 93 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,960 prosperity and reconciliation. There's no other chance because 94 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,400 as long as one people will control the other people in 95 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,600 these, in the Jewish perspective, the minority is 96 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,440 going to control the majority. For sure there will be 97 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,680 bloodshed. No, no one can, can, can, can 98 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,520 expect other result. I don't know anyone that will 99 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,120 just say, OK, it's fine for me. And the next generation and the 100 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,520 next generation, we are just going to live under the Israeli 101 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,440 occupation that is that is becoming much more brutal and we 102 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,800 are fine with it. The international and move, 103 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,080 first of all, show both sides that there is an alternative to 104 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,720 the war and to the occupation. Second, if the international 105 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,480 community will be strong enough, eventually Israel and the 106 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,360 Palestinian will have to react and to accept it. 107 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,720 What is strong enough? There are many ways to to 108 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,520 practice it. OK, Alan, I mean, you seem to 109 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,920 have gone from a man who was heavily engaged in the peace 110 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,720 process to a man who now essentially supports the 111 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,360 Netanyahu government. No, no, not at all. 112 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,040 Excuse me, I'm an international lawyer. 113 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,240 I'm not politically identified with any party or with any 114 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,640 government. I was involved in the 115 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,160 negotiations of the Oslo Accords. 116 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,560 I've been involved in the negotiations on the drafting of 117 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,320 the International Criminal Court. 118 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,840 So my my position is basically a position, a position of 119 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,640 international law. I also sat in the General 120 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,880 Assembly for many, many years in the legal committee. 121 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,000 Right. So, so, So what do you think 122 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,400 about how realistic the situation is now and what 123 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,560 difference these international diplomatic measures are making? 124 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,320 OK, well, well first of all, resolutions to the General 125 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:25,480 Assembly have got absolutely no legal obligatory context there. 126 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,280 They represent the the political viewpoint of the majority of 127 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,440 states that voted in favour of them. 128 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,520 So a resolution that was adopted recommending because they can 129 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:42,080 only recommend a 2 state solution and whatever else they 130 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,840 recommended is not obligatory, it can only recommend and it's a 131 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,520 political resolution, it doesn't oblige anybody. 132 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:57,360 Secondly, a resolution calling upon for for a recognition of a 133 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,000 Palestinian state that doesn't exist when everybody knows that 134 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,520 no state exists is totally unrealistic and naive on the 135 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,120 part of those leaders, especially the presidents of of 136 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,760 France, the Prime Minister of Canada, the Prime Minister of 137 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,560 the United Kingdom, Australia, who who willingly went along and 138 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,440 supported this, knowing that they're supporting something 139 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,320 that's totally unreal. But they think they're putting 140 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,440 it on the agenda. Well, they think they're putting 141 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,320 it on the agenda and they they think they're slapping Israel in 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,799 the face. The other thing is the concept 143 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:37,880 of the two state solution. Now, it was a very noble vision 144 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,880 set out by by President George W Bush in in the late 80s, I think 145 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,640 it was. It was also part of the 146 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,480 partition resolution of 1947, which talked about a Jewish 147 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:57,120 state and an Arab state, but it's never actually been agreed 148 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,440 to by the parties. And as you mentioned, it's even 149 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,440 opposed by Hamas and, and even by the, the, the Palestinian 150 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,320 Authority. And So what is on the table and 151 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,200 what has been agreed to are the Oslo Accords and the Oslo 152 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,960 Accords. In the Oslo Accords, Israel and 153 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:21,320 the PLO agreed to conduct negotiations on the the 154 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,480 permanent status of the territories. 155 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,720 And these negotiations haven't yet started. 156 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:32,200 Do you think it's possible? Absolutely possible. 157 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,680 And that's why I was coming to this. 158 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,320 The aim of the negotiations is, as they say, a permanent status. 159 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,960 Now, this could be one state, it could be two states, it could be 160 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,560 3 states. It could be a federation, A 161 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:48,720 confederation, A condominium, a Co imperium. 162 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,080 It could be anything that the parties agree to if they 163 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,480 genuinely come and conduct bona fide negotiation. 164 00:09:55,680 --> 00:10:00,720 But these calls by these leaders and by the General Assembly and 165 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,800 by others for A2 state solution are basically prejudging what 166 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,640 has been agreed upon as the outcome of a negotiation. 167 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,440 And so I personally, having been involved in these negotiations, 168 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,960 I, I object to, to going along with the concept of A2 state 169 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,840 solution. I don't object to the, the to 170 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,280 the idea. I just say that if and when the 171 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,000 time comes and we negotiate genuinely with a Palestinian 172 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,400 leadership that gets it's act together and is capable of 173 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,720 representing the Palestinian people and committing itself and 174 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,600 fulfilling it's commitments, then if the outcome of that 175 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,640 negotiation would be a 2 state solution then I would be all in 176 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,400 favour. If it would be a three state 177 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,880 solution, I'd be all in favour of that as well. 178 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,320 Hassan I think it's obedience for the continuation of the 179 00:10:53,760 --> 00:11:00,280 incubation because Oslo was agreed in the beginning of the 180 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,040 90s and we are more than 30 years after that. 181 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,560 And we see that the settlements were expanded more, the number 182 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:13,520 of Palestinians that they were killed and daily they are called 183 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,840 getting bigger and bigger, the expansion of the settlements 184 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,200 getting bigger and there is no negotiation. 185 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,760 And the position of Israeli government is that there is no 186 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,160 right of self determination of the Palestinian Bieber. 187 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,640 So to come and to say let the two parties continue to 188 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,360 negotiate. This is illusion because there 189 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:38,440 is no negotiation and Israeli government deny the right of the 190 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,680 Palestinian for self determination. 191 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,680 So, so is your. Are you saying that Allen's 192 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,320 yeah, reasonable position is actually a way of all go with 193 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,680 continuing with? Due of respect to Allen and with 194 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,960 his motive, but to come and to say let the two parties continue 195 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,800 to negotiate. This is illusion. 196 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,560 You are saying let the occupation continues because 197 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:05,880 rally government has position. They see the West Bank and Gaza 198 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,640 and is Jerusalem part of great Israel and it's Israel. 199 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,960 They don't recognize the right of the Palestinian for self 200 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,920 determination. They see that the settlements 201 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,720 are part of Israel. So to negotiate with who and now 202 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,240 we have to evaluate and to ask why Oslo failed. 203 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,880 Oslo failed because there is no political will from Israel side 204 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,520 to end the occupation. Now I think that the discussion. 205 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,120 That's not what Bill Clinton says, of course. 206 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:36,160 Is it? Of course. 207 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,320 Of course he he blames Arafat. He can't blame Arafat, but I 208 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:46,200 think the BLO, especially Fatah, their main project is like Yariv 209 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:51,440 project, that two state solution and they are doing everything 210 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:57,480 for this solution and this may be what make BLO weak among the 211 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,800 Palestinian people because they are focused only in this issue. 212 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,320 So about Fatah, we know that they are for this solution, that 213 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,200 the only problem for this or the main problem is that there is no 214 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:12,840 political will in the Israeli side. 215 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,200 So when Alan said because I, I said of course Hamas is not in 216 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,160 favour of A2 state solution as things stand. 217 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,960 Alan said also also the the Palestinian Authority is not in. 218 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,760 No Palestinian Authority is in favour. 219 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,280 This is the main project for the Palestinian Authority and among 220 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:35,280 Hamas we hear people like hell Mashal is ready to accept 2 221 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,080 state solution. The issue here, the main issue I 222 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,320 think that there is no political will from Israel side. 223 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,360 But all of this discourse about two state solution is old 224 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,440 discourse. We have been in that for more 225 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:55,360 than three decades now. The discourse should shift. 226 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:59,880 We are in genocide era. The main problem is to end the 227 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,400 occupation. We don't have to speak about the 228 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,840 permanent solution. The permanent solution really 229 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,080 could be confederation, could be one state, could be 3 states. 230 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,240 We have to end and to work the international to end the 231 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,080 occupation. Why? 232 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,840 What does ending the occupation mean? 233 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,720 The occupation that the West Bank and Gaza and Israelism 234 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,000 won't be under military control of Israel. 235 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,480 And this switch to start to speak about ending of the 236 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,600 occupation rather about statehood. 237 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,280 This will switch the language from statehood to rights. 238 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,800 Let us agree about the rights of the two people. 239 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,720 I my position is that we have to accept that the two people, 240 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,120 Jewish people, Israel Jewish people and the Palestinian 241 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,240 people, both of them have the right of self determination and 242 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,280 historic Palestine. That every Palestinian person 243 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,920 and every Israeli Jewish person has the right to live with 244 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,360 equality and peace and historic Palestine. 245 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:04,720 If we agree on that, then we can say we want to divide the 246 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,800 country to two state, 3 state 4 state. 247 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,560 This won't be a matter but the problem of two state solution 248 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,200 that first we focus in borders without speaking about rights. 249 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,800 Now what's my problem here with the position of two state 250 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,600 solution that you speak about? That Israel would continue to be 251 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,240 Jewish and Democrat state, meaning that the Palestinian 252 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:33,520 citizens that they are comprised 20%, twenty, 1% of the Israeli 253 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,880 population would continue to be second class citizen. 254 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,200 That there is no solution for Palestinian refugees and also 255 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,880 what's the solution for half million Israeli settlers. 256 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,400 So 2 state solution in the meaning 2 state for two people 257 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,640 doesn't give me solution for crucial matters. 258 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:00,080 One of the crucial matters today is the nation state law that all 259 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,240 the words say that this is apartheid law. 260 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,160 Why it's apartheid? Because it said that the Green 261 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,920 Line is only for the Jewish people. 262 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,000 The only group that has the right to exercise determination 263 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,320 in the Green line is the Jewish people. 264 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,400 What about me? What about my rights? 265 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,400 I am Palestinian citizen. I am Arabic speaker and Hebrew 266 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,440 speaker and my Hebrew better than 95% of Israeli Jews. 267 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,640 Why I don't have the right of self determination as Israeli 268 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,360 Jew in the green line? Why I have to be second class 269 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,240 citizen? Why I won't have the right for 270 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,960 family unification? Why I won't have access to land 271 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,120 like any Jews? And I am native, I am not 272 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,160 immigrant. So this is the problem that when 273 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,280 we speak in Europe, when we speak about two state solution, 274 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,280 we ignore three companies, We ignore the right of Palestinian 275 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,400 citizen, we ignore the right of Palestinian refugee and we 276 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,160 ignore really right of settlers. I am not saying the settlers are 277 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,960 legitimate to be in West Bank because I will legitimize the 278 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:16,079 occupation. But I say well maybe really Jews 279 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,400 will have the right for movement at least if that was back. 280 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,800 But would you have agreement after you decolonize the 281 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,599 country, not through the colonialisation? 282 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,640 OK. But also, I mean, just to come 283 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,960 back to sort of, you know, the starting point for all of these 284 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,160 processes is always end the violence. 285 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,200 So and and accept the idea. So, so do you, you know, it's 286 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,160 kind of what you do with Hamas or whatever Hamas might become, 287 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,240 you know, do you think it is possible for the Palestinian 288 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,520 Authority, for the different Palestinian groups to remove 289 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,360 Hamas from the process and for, for that not to be an obstacle? 290 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,720 I, I think Hamas now in bad situation. 291 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,720 These are the Palestinian people. 292 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,520 I think that they made from Palestinian perspective very, 293 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,160 very huge mistake about the 7th of October. 294 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,880 And I don't think that they have the power of the 6th of October 295 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,760 today. And the majority of the 296 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,360 Palestinian people have now interest to stop the genocide 297 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,720 part of stopping the genocide to end the incubation. 298 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,240 So no one even that I am even that I have problem with two 299 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,720 state solution today I have to accept ending the incubation. 300 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,120 I will be happy if Israel leave E Jerusalem and Gaza and respect 301 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:45,120 because this occupation is the prologue occupation in the 302 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,840 modern history. This situation is the most 303 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,440 brutal occupation in the modern history. 304 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,600 Every day is immediate danger for the life of the Palestinian 305 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,440 because of this situation. So sometime I have no solution 306 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,880 but no option but to say you know if you give me now 2 state 307 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,840 solution I can understand and say I am against ending the 308 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,000 Commission. I'll, I'll come back to you in a 309 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,600 moment, but we, we must hear from Tova. 310 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,520 The question started with, is this realistic? 311 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,800 Can, can it be put back on the agenda? 312 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,280 And you know what do you need to do to do that? 313 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,640 Right. So I think the concept of two 314 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,840 states, right, which is the self determination of two people with 315 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:34,200 ties to the land, that's kind of an easy concept to say. 316 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:39,040 Sure, you know, if Jews have ties to the land, then they 317 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,960 should have a state. If Palestinians have ties to the 318 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,200 land, they should have a state. Theoretically speaking, it's 319 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,520 very easy always to talk about rights. 320 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,440 It's always the execution of the rights that is difficult. 321 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,800 And when both rights are pitted against each other as if there's 322 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:59,240 some mortal battle between, you know, if I give you these 323 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,480 rights, I'm going to lose mine and vice versa. 324 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,480 I mean, the two state solution is really drowning in the 325 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,160 details. It's not really drowning in 326 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,320 declarations. It's drowning because nobody can 327 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,280 agree on what you're actually talking about. 328 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:18,960 Are you talking about, you know? A Jewish state that's a state 329 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,320 for all of its citizens. I think that's what you were. 330 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,440 That's what you were referring to, right? 331 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,280 Israel as a state for all of its citizens. 332 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,200 Are you talking about an ethnically nationalist Jewish 333 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,080 state? If you have a state of 334 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,720 Palestine, can Jews be citizens in that state? 335 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,280 Can they be full citizens? Can they have full rights? 336 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,480 Right. If you talk about a border, is 337 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,360 it at the 67 line? Is it with the settlement blocks 338 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:45,000 like which, which definition of Palestinian statehood does it 339 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,600 include Jordan, which definition are you actually discussing? 340 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,960 So at the point where it was very easy to sort of more say 341 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,360 more broadly and inch towards it, people did that and then 342 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:00,040 many things historically came into play, but. 343 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,760 On But on the basic level, do you think Israelis are prepared 344 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,720 to accept the idea of a Palestinian state I. 345 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,200 Think that's what I'm saying. I'm saying globally, I think you 346 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,080 could create a situation where they would pragmatically. 347 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,000 If you're talking about two states at the 67 line, I don't 348 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,440 think you have many Israelis that ever said two states at the 349 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,280 pre 67 lines, right. If you're talking about security 350 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,400 guarantees such that you couldn't have an October 7th 351 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,920 style attack, yeah, I think you could get there. 352 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,880 But again, you, I mean, the, the two state, the two state 353 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,840 solution when it was put forward on the table, was put forward in 354 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:49,480 a situation where you essentially had the idea of two 355 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,120 governances, right? You didn't have the threat as 356 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:56,200 much from non state actors such as Hamas. 357 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,520 So now, even if you could move the dial back, I think that's, 358 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,080 that's what the UN resolution is about, right? 359 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:10,480 It's about can we get everything back to pre to October 6th? 360 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,560 Can you move the dial back if you don't have a solution to 361 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,040 what happens if you have a non state actor such as Hamas that 362 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,480 could come into play. Also, now you know we're talking 363 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,320 about a much broader regional picture. 364 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,840 Can you bring in the Abraham Accords? 365 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Can the Abraham Accords shift the dial? 366 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,080 What incentives could be put on the table? 367 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,160 I mean, the Abraham Accords are in danger of being destroyed 368 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,200 now, aren't they? The attack on Qatar has put the 369 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,680 Abraham Accords in great peril. UAE is considering withdrawing 370 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,760 from the whole thing. Where can they turn it around 371 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,680 and find a way to put all the genies back in the box? 372 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,600 I'm saying you're sitting here, you're sitting here, you know, 373 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,160 at this massive tipping point where it could go either way. 374 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,400 But the but the idea of two states is really about the 375 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,440 details of it. Can you get everybody out of the 376 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,280 existential button, existential sort of crisis situation that 377 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,400 they're in now? OK. 378 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,680 I mean, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of scepticism on both sides 379 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,320 here, isn't there? I do think that the details are 380 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,560 already well known and they are well expect accepted by both 381 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,400 sides that would like to get the solution. 382 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,400 We know the settlements blocks and the swap and and the borders 383 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,040 and the all other issues are all almost as solved. 384 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:31,000 It's not about the details, it's about the willingness of the 385 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,640 Israelis to give up part of the Holy Land for the Palestinians 386 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,320 and to recognize that the Palestinians are human being and 387 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,640 they deserve a state like the like Israelis. 388 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,240 This is the main issue here and when I see the Israeli society I 389 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:51,160 see 2 main challenges. The first one is the people that 390 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,120 are passionate about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza 391 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,080 because of the religious reasons, because of their belief 392 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,240 that democracy is important but not so important like the land. 393 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,080 And they prefer the land over democracy and they prefer the 394 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,960 occupation over peace. And they are the settler 395 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,360 movement I would call it. Not all of them are settlers. 396 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,320 Some of them are living within side Israel and this is the most 397 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:18,440 powerful political force in Israel for many years now, but 398 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,520 they are not the the majority of Israelis. 399 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,600 The issue here is about the mainstream Israelis that are not 400 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,600 living in the West Bank, that are not living in in in East 401 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,360 Jerusalem, that are not meeting Palestinians on the daily life 402 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,960 Palestinian mean Palestinian living in the West Bank, not 403 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,920 Israeli Arabs. And they're maybe ready for the 404 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,000 two state solution. They are the ones that supported 405 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,680 the hostile agreement and other process, but they were convinced 406 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,920 and they are convinced now that there is not an option. 407 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,600 Either it's not possible to have it or it's not safe to have it. 408 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,080 And the main thing that the Israeli government and the 409 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,440 Israeli right wing is doing all the time is to continue push the 410 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,920 message that forever it's going to be war. 411 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,720 And this is something because the Palestinians, they don't 412 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,400 like us, they want to kick us out. 413 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,400 They are criminals, they are terrorists. 414 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,200 And this is a fact that cannot be changed. 415 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,840 And if you are and they are so busy, try to hide, to hide the 416 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,400 alternative for the occupation and the war. 417 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,840 And this is what they are doing since October seven. 418 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:27,160 I thought that October 7 might change the Israeli view, because 419 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,120 before October 7, many Israelis fought that. 420 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:33,520 It's OK, We can control the Palestinians, we can have an 421 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,040 occupation, we can have siege over Gaza for decades and 422 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,320 nothing bad will happen. We can have peace with the 423 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,720 Emirates, we can fly abroad, we can have normal life, we can 424 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,080 have a very good economic situation. 425 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,800 We can be part of the world and it's fine. 426 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,080 And I thought that October 7th might change the perspective 427 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,480 saying to the Israelis enough, we need to solve the conflict, 428 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,480 otherwise it's going to be war again. 429 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,400 Unfortunately, the government and the Israeli white women, 430 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,480 some of the opposition, they are pushing forward a different 431 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,840 message that the lesson from October 7th is that we need to 432 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,640 be stronger, that we need to attack before we are being 433 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,880 attacked, that we need forever to attack them and maybe even to 434 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,200 expel them out. And this is a catastrophic 435 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,800 message and we need to counter this message and the world 436 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,760 should counter this message. And to say to Hamas and the 437 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,440 settlers and the Israelis, there are two option, either war and 438 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,240 destruction and isolation and bad things that will happen. 439 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,760 Or an alternative, giving up part of the land in order to 440 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,640 have Israel as a traditional democratic state and also a 441 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,400 peace in the region. And this conflict threats the 442 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,880 the the stability of the world, not just in this region. 443 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:54,360 I I find it somewhat strange, if not sad that that Yariv, my 444 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:59,400 colleague is, is, is hinting at the fact that well, October the 445 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:05,560 7th was Israel's fault and and therefore Israel should learn 446 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,400 from it. Was it Israel who attacked, 447 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,480 brutally attacked and raped and and burnt thousands of people? 448 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,080 Where did this come from? It didn't come from Israel. 449 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:24,720 It came from a, a, a state of mind, an attitude, a fanatic 450 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,640 Islamistic attitude among Hamas that that basically it's being 451 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,120 echoed on the the streets of London and on the streets of 452 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,920 Paris and, and, and various other places from the river to 453 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,760 the sea, Palestine will be free and there's no room for Israel. 454 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,920 And this is a genocidal attitude. 455 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:47,440 And so if Hassan is talking all the time using the the phrases 456 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,920 genocide and apartheid, I think you should look in, in all 457 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,880 directions, Hassan, because you don't recognise that. 458 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,120 Now let me, please. No, no, no. 459 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,160 I think you'll use. Excuse me. 460 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,880 I think you're you're you're excuse me. 461 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:07,720 I think you're using phrases that are, are sort of you, you 462 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,840 that are just being bandied about without anybody knowing 463 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,600 what genocide is. No, I excuse me. 464 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,680 Well, it's being defined now. Excuse me. 465 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,760 I excuse me. No. 466 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,000 Excuse me excuse. Me. 467 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,240 Would you allow me please to finish genocide? 468 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,280 Would you please allow me to finish my sentence? 469 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,080 Of. Course, genocide is defined by 470 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,160 the the the 1948 UN Genocide Convention. 471 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:34,080 And so, before throwing out platitudes that you've heard in 472 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,640 propaganda, look rich. Today the US and Commission of 473 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,200 Inquiry of the OBT, the Occupy terrorism, decided that what is 474 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800 happening in Gaza is genocide. Would you please allow me to 475 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,080 finish? That you say and. 476 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,360 Then I like. Attitude. 477 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:55,080 Those UN bodies, UN bodies deciding that genocide is 478 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,000 happening in Gaza. I'd like to. 479 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,440 That's my attitude. I'd like to conduct a cultural 480 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,440 discussion, not interrupt each other. 481 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,920 So please allow me to finish and then you'll say what you want. 482 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,640 But I, I, as an international lawyer, I know what the 483 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,560 definition of genocide is. Excuse me. 484 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,880 Look, will you please that I'm. You know it's a sentence. 485 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,320 So, you know, you've taken me off the, the, the, the flow of 486 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,440 what I wanted to say. And So what I'm saying is that 487 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,280 the, what I wanted to say from the very beginning is this, that 488 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,480 the Oslo Accords, which I was involved in negotiating, 489 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,480 including negotiating directly with the Palestinian leadership 490 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:41,080 like Yasser Arafat, Muhammad, Mahmoud Abbas, Abu Allah and Sai 491 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,640 Barikat and Sai Barikat. And I drafted the two of us. 492 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,040 The provision in the Oslo Accords that says that the 493 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,280 Palestinian, that the, the, the PLO and the Israelis will 494 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,720 conduct negotiations in which both sides, each side will 495 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,320 present their basic rights and historic and legal rights. 496 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:07,040 And these will be negotiated, not dictated by aun resolution, 497 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,320 not dictated by a French President or British Prime 498 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,320 Minister, not dictated by terrorist organizations in. 499 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,080 Gaza Netanyahu to decide Netanyahu, that is, he is 500 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,640 genociding. That is the question. 501 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,280 Do you want related to Netanyahu to decide? 502 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,280 This is my question. Second, my question to you as 503 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,480 lawyer of international law, how do you define what's happening 504 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,680 now in Gaza? How what? 505 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,520 How you define you want? Me to define it? 506 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,240 Yeah. Will you allow me to answer 507 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,560 without interrupting me? Yes. 508 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,360 OK, What is? That the moderator. 509 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,240 Is that on the basis of of the the the the horrific massacre 510 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,480 that took place? Israel took actions to prevent 511 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,080 any further offensive action by Hamas. 512 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,320 These actions are still going on because Hamas is still declaring 513 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,480 its intent to conduct more and more. 7th of October. 70% of the 514 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,920 houses of the Palestinian people the self determined destroying 515 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,280 all the bending. Hold on, I'm sorry. 516 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,120 OK, I I. So you you reject the finding of 517 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,720 genocide, don't you? I I don't have enough data in 518 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,840 order to say that this is genocide. 519 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,560 Do you do you respect the UN Commission? 520 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,720 I I respect, but I cannot adopt the conclusion. 521 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,440 I say the reality. The reality is the Israeli 522 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,200 government is speaking about expelling the Gaza people, 523 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,840 making Gaza an impossible place to live and to move out the 524 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,520 Palestinians. They are not just talking about 525 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,080 it. They created this new system, 526 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:42,840 new government office. I will say section, government 527 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,200 section that is going to is working on this idea and talking 528 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,040 with other countries in order to expel the Palestinians. 529 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,960 So it's very clear that the goal of this war is not to fight 530 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,360 Hamas and it's not to release the hostages. 531 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,560 The goal of this war is to expel the Palestinians and to take 532 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,880 their land. It's not genocide, but it's not, 533 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,440 it's not something that I can accept as a human being, as an 534 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,800 Israeli, as a person that believe in democracy. 535 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,280 I will agree with you that it's not Auschwitz, but it's 536 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,960 genocide. I, I, I, I think that Israel is 537 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,920 not doing enough to stop the civilian casualties. 538 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,600 And I think that the reason why Israel is fighting Gaza, not 539 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,760 just Hamas, is because they believe that eventually this is 540 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,440 an historical time. They can take advantage of 541 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,080 October 7, use it as an excuse to expel the Palestinians, to 542 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,240 make Gaza a hell, a place that you cannot live, that you have 543 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,760 no houses at all, no infrastructure, nothing to force 544 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,560 them to move out, to call it that. 545 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,480 Immigration, voluntary immigration, and eventually to 546 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,640 take over Gaza. This is the main goal of the 547 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:55,200 war. OK. 548 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,640 I mean, Alan, I just want to come back to your your proposal, 549 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,360 if you like, which is that the Israelis and the Palestinians 550 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,880 should sit there and discuss their rights That that that is 551 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,160 not what Netanyahu is interested in in the slightest, is he? 552 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,400 So, So Hassan's point that, you know, you leave that to 553 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,120 Netanyahu is it's correct. It's not going to happen under 554 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,680 this government. Whether Netanyahu is interested 555 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,560 or is not interested is immaterial at the moment. 556 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,400 And I come here well. It's not. 557 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,880 Unlike my colleagues, I'm not coming here with a political 558 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,040 agenda. What I'm saying is this, Israel 559 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,000 is committed by an agreement that has been signed 560 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,160 internationally and witnessed by the President of the United 561 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,080 States, the President of the Russian Federation, the King of 562 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:45,000 Jordan, the President of Egypt, the EU and has been endorsed and 563 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,520 and the Prime Minister of Norway and has been endorsed by the 564 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,680 United Nations, witnessed. Therefore, all these parties and 565 00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:00,200 witnesses can, should be going along with the aim to get back 566 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,000 to a negotiating mode. Now, how do we get back to a 567 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,320 negotiating mode? Are the Palestinians and the 568 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,080 Israelis in a position to get back tomorrow morning to a 569 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,159 negotiating mode? Regrettably, they're not. 570 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,480 Netanyahu says there will be no Palestinian state. 571 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,120 The Israeli government, Well, the Israeli government at the 572 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,120 moment is not in a position to to develop itself into a a 573 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,280 negotiating team that can negotiate in the same way that 574 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,360 there's no such thing as a representative of the 575 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,159 Palestinian people because there's Hamas and there's Fatah 576 00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:40,239 and there's the Islamic Jihad and there's 300 other 577 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,920 organisations. So until the two sides get 578 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,159 themselves get their act together in order to conduct the 579 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,639 negotiations in accordance with what has been agreed upon and 580 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:54,159 what is what they're committed to, it will take time. 581 00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,480 So it. Doesn't require Donald Trump to 582 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,880 have a change of heart and to tell Netanyahu he has to now end 583 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,560 the negotiation. It will definitely require 584 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,360 Donald Trump, but I think Trump has shown that he doesn't 585 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,040 negotiate in the same way that people have in the past. 586 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,280 I don't think that you're going to see a long term negotiation 587 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,840 process. I think you're going to see a 588 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,680 lot of behind the scenes movement. 589 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,320 I think you're going to see an attempt to revive the Abraham 590 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,880 Accords and to leverage that toward a solution. 591 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,480 I don't think the solution is going to look like something 592 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,520 that we had before, but I think you can't get, it's just it's 593 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:43,240 not possible that you're going to return this box to the to the 594 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:46,000 Oslo process. And I think the declaration in 595 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,200 September is about is part of signalling the end to that Oslo 596 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,480 negotiation periods. I think you're when we when we 597 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,320 got to when we were on October 6th, what was happening is that 598 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,200 people were hoping that they were going to have a deal with 599 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,440 Saudi Arabia that was going to return us to A2 state solution. 600 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,560 They thought they were making a deal with Hamas. 601 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,320 It's part of why they weren't as attuned to some of the things 602 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,800 that were about to happen. You're going to be going much 603 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,480 more in the direction of something that's regional rather 604 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,680 than something that's directly between the two parties because 605 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,040 you're going to need the region, something that was let that was 606 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,240 less thought about during Oslo. So I think I think it's just 607 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,200 going to be a completely different ball game. 608 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,120 And in which Saudi? Arabia is much more. 609 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,960 Important Saudi Arabia is going to be is going to be a huge 610 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,920 player here what Israel, what in other words, everybody's been 611 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,680 talking here in Netanyahu. Netanyahu is if he is, he is 612 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,240 this, you know, sort of 1 dimension kind of we love war 613 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:52,120 figure, but the truth is that Netanyahu is a very complex 614 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,280 politician. He, you know, he was the person 615 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,200 who signed the Y agreement. He, you know, he split Hebron. 616 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,760 He was, he did a moratorium on, you know, new new settlement, 617 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,840 new settlement housing when it was in. 618 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,200 So. So are you saying you think 619 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,880 Netanyahu could be a Rabin? I'm saying. 620 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,040 Netanyahu could bring peace. Netanyahu can be can turn the 621 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:23,200 dial in a dime and become any figure that you want him to be 622 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,760 if it's going to achieve some of his larger goals. 623 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,000 And keep him in power. And keep and yes, but I'm 624 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,840 saying, but if you can get, if you can get a, if you can get a 625 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,960 Saudi deal, if you can put a cap on a nuclear Iran, how the 626 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,000 Palestinians play into that when you have those levers is going 627 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,080 to be very different than when they. 628 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,400 Don't and can I just ask you just on the genocide point which 629 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,960 has been in, you know, again in the news this week because of 630 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,720 the UN Commission. But of course it follows, you 631 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:53,240 know, the international genocide scholars also saying this, lots 632 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:58,000 of organisations saying this, you know, you're not an expert 633 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,520 in genocide, but but do you whether you whether you accept 634 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,280 whether you're able to say it's genocide or not, does it make 635 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,280 you as an Israeli And do you think it's making Israelis think 636 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,440 are we doing something? Have we crossed the line when so 637 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,320 many people are saying this is genocide? 638 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,280 Or does the national psyche kick in of this is just global 639 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,360 anti-Semitism? I don't, I think that 640 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:29,440 unfortunately, with all due respect, I, I mean, I can't, I 641 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:35,400 imagine that if I am a Palestinian sitting in Gaza and 642 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,840 I'm looking around me at the destruction and looking at the 643 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:46,320 body counts, I imagine it would feel like a genocide, much like 644 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,320 it felt to Israelis on October 7th who looked at the 645 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,840 destruction of their world, that it was similar to the Holocaust. 646 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,200 I, you know, I, I, you know, I liked what you said that this 647 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,480 wasn't Auschwitz. Because I feel like for 648 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,080 Israelis, when you talk about genocide, you know, you're 649 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:12,080 talking about a Holocaust that you know, killed over 60% of 650 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,560 European jury it you get you use the word like genocide and you 651 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,160 traipse all kinds of buttons. I think everybody can globally 652 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,400 say that what's happening to civilians in Gaza is horrible 653 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,960 and that the death count is too high and that innocent civilians 654 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,840 should not be killed. It's a really simple concept and 655 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,240 I don't think you need to create this, you know, battle of 656 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,960 victims, one or the other around it. 657 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,240 I wish to share in my experience when I'm speaking with Israelis, 658 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:44,480 normally Israel, well, it's not like lunatics. 659 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,520 And I'm asking them about how do you feel about the Gaza people 660 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,080 that are suffering and being killed and the destruction is so 661 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,000 huge and they are saying I don't feel bad for them because what 662 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,440 they did to us on October 7th and we need to confront it. 663 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,080 The dehumanization process of the Palestinian in the Israeli 664 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,800 society with the help of Hamas that totally did a huge war 665 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,200 crime on October 7th. It's a it's a small world to say 666 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,840 a war crime about it. With the help of Hamas, the 667 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,000 dehumanization process of the Palestinians in is it's the in 668 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,600 in its peak. Israelis don't feel sympathy to 669 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,320 the Palestinians as a whole, especially to the Palestinian 670 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,960 Gaza. The pictures of the people of 671 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,960 Gaza cheering and happy when the hostages came, some some of them 672 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,080 came already dead to the to the Gaza and beaten. 673 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,800 But you don't need to feel sympathy for Palestinians to 674 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,480 think what you're doing is wrong. 675 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,760 Of I, I personally feel sympathy for the Palestinian for sure. 676 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,080 And I think it's, it's, it's madness and I think it's, it's a 677 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,120 violation of the international law and it's, and, and, and the 678 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,720 government is not telling the truth. 679 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,400 The reason why Israel is, is, is, is using such a force over 680 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,400 the population of Gaza, not just the Hamas is not military, it's 681 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,640 not the hostages. There was only one goal that can 682 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,000 that that can explain this use of power, this use of force. 683 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,360 And this is the idea of expelling the Palestinians and 684 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,360 moving them out of Gaza. And and as I said before, the 685 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,520 government not only talk about it but is doing things in order 686 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,720 to to make it happen. OK, Can we talk about the 687 00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:30,600 settlers as, as one of the big obstacles to any kind of peace 688 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,920 process now, Hassan, you said, you said in a way you didn't 689 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,120 think the settlements were the, you know, the the brake on any 690 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,080 kind of future. But given what's happening, 691 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,400 given the expansion of settlements now the effective 692 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,640 division of the West Bank with this green light on a, on a new 693 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,840 expansion in this new corridor, are you saying it could just be 694 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,760 stopped? No, I am thinking that I am 695 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,760 saying that one of the failure, one of the reason why Oslo 696 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,680 failed, didn't succeed first because you have many, many 697 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,440 groups that they didn't have answer. 698 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,040 Robin was killed by a person who belonged to the settler group. 699 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,840 I am not saying all the settlers are killer, but he belonged the 700 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,680 person who killed the Rabin and he and many of the settlers 701 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,720 thought that Robin put them under risk. 702 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,360 Palestinian citizen of Israel. They said to themselves, we have 703 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,080 no answer. We will continue to be second 704 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,280 class citizen. The people in Gaza, 2 third of 705 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,440 them are refugees. They said, well, Oslo doesn't 706 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,280 give us answer as refugees and This is why you have many groups 707 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,000 that made Oslo not successful one. 708 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:51,760 And This is why I'm saying that we have to switch the discourse 709 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,880 from statehood to rights. And if we speak about rights, 710 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,760 it's easier in fact, because when we both borders all the 711 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,480 time partitioning make problems. Until now, the partitioning 712 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:12,640 between India and Pakistan still making troubles there and 713 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,840 partitioning of Palestine we still live. 714 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,640 There, but there is a conversation right Let. 715 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,880 As let as switch the conversation but. 716 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,920 Is a conversation about? Hang on, I just want to 717 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,280 establish. Is the conversation about rights 718 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,040 a stepping stone to a conversation about sovereignty 719 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,680 and borders and. It will lead. 720 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:31,840 It will. Lead state? 721 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,200 Or are you saying actually we could just have a one state 722 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,440 solution as long? As no I am not saying one state, 723 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,080 maybe 2 state, maybe 3 state, maybe confederation, but first 724 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,840 order to speak about the rights to agree that every person in 725 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,320 this land should be treated equally, every person, every 726 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,600 group should have the right of self determining. 727 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,160 But do you think the settlers in the expansion of settlements 728 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,080 have made this impossible now Now of. 729 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,520 Course, it's difficult. The the settlers are one of the 730 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,280 most strongest political wing in Israel. 731 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,320 One of the reason why the war is continued is because the power 732 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,560 of the settlers in this government, power of Smothridge 733 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,520 and power of Bengvir in this government and power of members 734 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,840 of the Likud that they support the settlers. 735 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,160 So settlers are very, very strong power. 736 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,960 One of the reason that the war is continued because of them. 737 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,280 I don't think that if we have politicians like him, the war, 738 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,240 the war, of course, will end tomorrow, Yastani or a year ago 739 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:37,640 or two years ago. But the problem that this 740 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,040 government is led by politics of settlers. 741 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,360 But I want to say something Christian, if you allow me a 742 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,360 minute. There is consensus among the 743 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,040 Holocaust and the genocide scholars that what's happening 744 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:57,360 in Gaza is genocide. And there is also consensus that 745 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:03,440 as that discourse in the world was switched and changed 746 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,160 immediately when the international media entered the 747 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,800 camps, Holocaust camps, and they saw the horrible things, then 748 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,520 something new came to the world, something that we know it now as 749 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,400 the language of human rights. The world was changed and now we 750 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,360 are living in the genocide era, in the genocide time. 751 00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:31,040 The question is whether this debate will be all debate when 752 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,400 the media, international media, enter Gaza, the world see what's 753 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,080 happening in Gaza, what's happening in Gaza, and then 754 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,000 maybe we will have a new discord in the world. 755 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,840 I think about Netanyahu. I don't see Netanyahu. 756 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:53,400 We'll find a way to be out of being indicted before the ICCI. 757 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,040 Don't think that's easy. Any Arab leaders in the world 758 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,000 will shake his hand after they will see what's happening in 759 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,440 Gaza. I don't see that even Western 760 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,560 leaders will shake his hand after they will see. 761 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,360 Look what happened to the Prime Minister of Israel. 762 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,640 He cannot travel back to US and Hungary today. 763 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,760 Those the two countries that he can. 764 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,240 And what will happen after the end of the war, when the scene 765 00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:26,280 of the genocide come out, all the world will start to compare, 766 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,640 really to compare. And I agree that there are 767 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,840 difference, but this is the main comparison between Holocaust 768 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,040 camps and Gaza. The only thing I would say, I'll 769 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,920 come further, but what I, what I, what I think is worth saying, 770 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,680 it is really not clear what the world will ever see. 771 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,600 Yes, there is no sign of the international media being 772 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,560 allowed. And we asked and we're not 773 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,320 allowed in. And they are destroying a great 774 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,040 deal of the evidence. So journalists. 775 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,920 So it's not clear what we would ever see if we were ever allowed 776 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,160 in Tova. Yeah, I just want to say that 777 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:05,920 the UN held a memorial service for the Iranian president when 778 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,520 he died in a helicopter crash. So I'm going to agree with you 779 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,880 that it's very hard to know what the UN would do. 780 00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:16,960 And after that, it really will depend a lot on where, where 781 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,320 it's going. You know, do you, do you 782 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,280 actually have a comprehensive peace agreement for the region? 783 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,440 Could Netanyahu be revived by that? 784 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,160 I, I don't know, but I, I do, I do feel bad that there is one 785 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,040 piece of the storyline that has not been mentioned here, which 786 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,200 I, which I really do want to mention because we talk a lot 787 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,040 about, you know, Israelis and feeling threatened. 788 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,160 Should they not feel threatened? Is this a war about the 789 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,720 destruction of Gaza? I'm not saying that there aren't 790 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:47,280 people in in the Israeli government who haven't spoken 791 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,280 quite openly about wanting to expel Palestinians and, you 792 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,400 know, destroy Gaza. But, you know, in 2005, Israel 793 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,720 pulled out of Gaza, right? And in the in the lead up to 794 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:04,240 that, there was an argument between the left wing members of 795 00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:06,520 the kibbutz team on the border and the settlers in Gaza. 796 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,480 And basically those members of the kibbutz team would say to 797 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,680 the settlers, you have to leave Gaza because you are what is 798 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,760 putting us in danger. And they would say to the people 799 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,600 in the kibbutz, right, No, no, no, it's the opposite. 800 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,080 We are here because we are protecting you. 801 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,600 If we leave, you will be attacked. 802 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,960 And that, and that was the argument. 803 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:35,560 And Israel left Gaza and Hamas seized control of the territory 804 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,080 in a coup kicking, kicking out Fatah. 805 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,800 And, and what should have been right a a lab for peacemaking, 806 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,760 what should have been a thing that would have inspired 807 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:52,240 Israelis towards taking risks, became actually the thing that 808 00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:54,760 made it almost impossible to move forward. 809 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,160 To you said the staffers were right incidentally, whether it 810 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,200 was a coup or not as. Debate I'm saying an election, 811 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:02,120 but I'm well, no, there was there was a coup after the 812 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:03,680 election. So I'm sort of saying, if 813 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,240 January 6th had had become a coup, would you say it was a 814 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,240 coup or that Trump I'm saying are? 815 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,600 You saying the staffers were right to say we defend you. 816 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,000 I'm saying that Israelis, that argument echoes across the 817 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,920 decades. For Israelis, you're you're not 818 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,800 and and and and and and it in other words, there is like an 819 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,920 over focus here on how you know, oh, Israel isn't paying 820 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,160 attention. You know, Israel doesn't is this 821 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,200 doesn't care about the security thing as if this is just about 822 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,880 destroying Palestinians and it's not about security. 823 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,400 I think Israelis got a very powerful lesson about I think 824 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,640 Israelis who thought before you could withdraw from territory 825 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,400 because we have a strong army that can protect our border and 826 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,640 and we can play around a little bit with this, with this issue 827 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,840 of withdrawal got a wake up call. 828 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,320 And it's going to be much harder now to put forward a solution 829 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:02,880 unless you have a security current argument as to why that 830 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:03,680 would not happen. I. 831 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:05,760 Think it's, it's really important what Tofa said. 832 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,160 Because it's very it's a very crucial part of the discourse 833 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,440 with inside this. The idea of the fact that Israel 834 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,280 move out from Gaza, then we got Hamas and then we got October 835 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,760 7th is something very deep in the minds of the mainstream 836 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,840 Israelis, not the supporters of the settlers. 837 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,160 Having said that, it's not all the picture since then, Israel 838 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,000 didn't promote the idea of the two state solution, disconnected 839 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,960 Gaza from the West Bank, from East Jerusalem and for the world 840 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:37,360 and make it a siege over Gaza. Create a situation in which the 841 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,680 people of Gaza are totally locked in Gaza and eventually 842 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:46,600 also giving money to Hamas and empowering Hamas, knowing that 843 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,920 once Hamas is controlling Gaza, there will not be any, any 844 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,120 address to speak about the two state solution. 845 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:59,080 So it wasn't, it wasn't just by accident that this government 846 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,800 supported Hamas and try to harm the Palestinian Authority and 847 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,840 they are doing it these days as well. 848 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,600 They thought that Hamas can be an ally because Hamas is not 849 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:09,880 talking about the two state solution. 850 00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,600 They're talking about one state that will not be Jewish will 851 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,800 maybe without Jewish people at all. 852 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,960 And therefore they are not the address for the permanent status 853 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,160 agreement. So this is terrific. 854 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,080 And they have no leverage of in the world because they are 855 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,160 considered to be a terrorist organization. 856 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,280 So let's give them money, let's empower them and let's we can 857 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,320 the moderate the alternative to Hamas, the Palestinian 858 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,040 Authority. This is part of the picture. 859 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:35,800 Alan, let me ask you about the settlements as well. 860 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,080 I mean, you know, there is this perception that the expansion of 861 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,760 the settlements has made the reality of a Palestinian state 862 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,120 impossible. Look, the the issue of 863 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,640 settlements and I'm quote, UN quote is a, a negotiating 864 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,880 subject in the in the final status negotiations. 865 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:56,280 So they could be Palestinian, they could be moved assuming 866 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,280 that we get back to a negotiating mode. 867 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,160 Israel is committed to this. The the the Palestinian 868 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,240 Liberation Organization is committed to this. 869 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,440 Obviously Hamas and and the various other factions don't 870 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,280 accept the very concept of of the state of Israel existing. 871 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,920 So the Palestinians themselves have to get over this, and in 872 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:23,400 the same way that Israel has to get back to its responsibilities 873 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,520 to negotiate. But it's impossible in the 874 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,920 context of this government, isn't it, with Scottish and Ben 875 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,120 Gavir in it? Look, Israel is a democratic 876 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,080 country. In the event that the Israeli 877 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,720 public decide that this government is not carrying out 878 00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:43,080 the, the, the what it wants, then then it has the prerogative 879 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,720 to change this government. What I what I'd like to say is 880 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:52,840 this that without going to to to buzzwords used by by by by 881 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,920 Hassan and and others here, whether it's genocide or two 882 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,880 state solution, all these are buzzwords that are being thrown 883 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:04,200 out in the UN or by various leaders. 884 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:11,200 These aren't going to advance in any way getting towards some 885 00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:16,000 type of peaceful solution or bomb was inage between the 886 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,000 Israelis and the Palestinians resolutions in the United 887 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:27,040 Nations that are encouraging Hamas to maintain their their 888 00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,920 their imprisonment of the of the the hostages. 889 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,280 These aren't going to advance anything. 890 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,480 They're only going to advance the suffering of everybody on 891 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,520 both sides. And therefore I, I think the, 892 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,760 the responsible states, had they gone to the United Nations, 893 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:49,520 they, they, they wouldn't have gone along with, with what is a 894 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,560 farce of adopting a UN resolution which is meaningless, 895 00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,320 which says nothing and which achieves nothing. 896 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,160 If I may say about the settlements, the settlement, the 897 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,120 construction of the settlements is a unilateral step by the 898 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:08,080 Israeli government. It's like negotiating over pizza 899 00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,920 and one side is eating the pizza and one. 900 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,320 And when this government would like to build an E1 between 901 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,400 Jerusalem and the settlements of Malayalam, yeah, this is 902 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,760 strategic threat to the option to have the two state solution. 903 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,320 So what are we going to discuss with the Palestinians once the 904 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:29,840 settlements project is over and you cannot physically made make 905 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,640 the two state solution. And I think that when we look at 906 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,160 the policy of the settlements, there are good news and the bad 907 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,880 news, the good news is that most of the Israelis are not going to 908 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:39,560 live there. They don't want to live there. 909 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,720 It's not safe. Some many people have problem, 910 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,160 moral problem to live there. They are not part of it. 911 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,000 And when you see the numbers, you don't see a huge increase of 912 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,360 the numbers of settlers, new settlers that are coming from 913 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,160 Israel to live in the heart of the West Bank. 914 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,480 Most of them are coming to the settlements blocks that can be 915 00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,640 annexed to Israel in a in permanent status agreement. 916 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,880 The bad news is that the people that do come there are much more 917 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,720 violence. They are much more motivated to 918 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:12,000 move out communities with inside Gaza and to take over the land. 919 00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:15,360 And they are being backed up by the Israeli government, by the 920 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,080 Israeli police. And they are even giving money 921 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,880 for the, there is the new, they are building now farms that are 922 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,000 taking over huge part of the land. 923 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:25,320 But you don't need so many people. 924 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,760 You can have 20-30 people, youngsters mostly coming with 925 00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,440 guns, coming with cars that they like, Rangers that they got from 926 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,120 the government, and they are threatening the Palestinian and 927 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:38,880 they are forcing them to move out. 928 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,920 I saw in my own eyes a Palestinian community that is 929 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,040 packing and moving out because they are afraid of the terror, 930 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,760 the terror of the settlers. And the settlers are using 931 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,080 violence and no one is doing anything about it. 932 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,880 And the situation of the Palestinian in the West Bank is 933 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,360 really, really bad because it's not just new neighbors that are 934 00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,760 taking your land. These new neighbors are 935 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:01,880 threatening you. They are threatening your 936 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,200 family. They humiliate you and they're 937 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,920 creating your life like an impossible one. 938 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,680 And this is part of what this government is doing, supporting 939 00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,840 the the the groups that are acting terror against the 940 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,720 Palestinians in the West Bank. And just to add data to support 941 00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:25,440 what Reeve said that in the last two years, 1000 Palestinian were 942 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,440 killed in the West Bank by the settlers and the army. 943 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,280 And this is the biggest number, that of killing Palestinians in 944 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,640 the West Bank since 1967. And if there is any terror in 945 00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,440 the West Bank, this is Jewish terror of the settlers and this 946 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:48,440 government empower them and give them money and armed support and 947 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,480 all of the powers to them. If there is terror, this is 948 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,760 Jewish terror in the West Bank. If there is violence, the 949 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:58,160 settler violence in the West Bank and the Palestinian there 950 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,640 under immediate dangers. I mean, what's interesting is 951 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,760 that what, whatever your perspective, you all seem to be 952 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,480 saying that the the settlers in themselves are not the obstacle 953 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,400 to a Palestinian state, that that is overcomeable, right? 954 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,480 So, So what what about the other things that have come up? 955 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:19,320 I mean, you know, and this feels like we're jumping way ahead and 956 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,840 of course we are. But when you get into these 957 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:25,640 negotiations, you're also going to be talking about refugees, 958 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,040 the right to return, the status of Jerusalem. 959 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,400 Yes, these are these are all negotiating. 960 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:32,920 Issues. Do you actually think these 961 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,480 things can be solved? The question who are the 962 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:41,080 partners from Israeli side to negotiate with Netanyahu cannot 963 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,160 be partner. Gan say I don't recognize the 964 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,920 right of self determination of the Palestinian people and I'm 965 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,600 against two state solution. Who is the partner Bennett? 966 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,120 Bennett is the only one who can replace Netanyahu. 967 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,680 He is supporting the policy of the settlers. 968 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,480 He is against Palestinian state. So first of all, let us decide 969 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,520 who is the Israeli partner with the Palestinian. 970 00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,520 I don't know to expect what Bennett will do. 971 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:08,880 I'm not so sure he will be the new Prime Minister. 972 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,000 We cannot know. But about the idea, when you 973 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,720 look at these issues, these core issues, they are all solvable. 974 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:19,000 Once there is a will for a political solution, there is a 975 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,120 political solution for each of of these issues. 976 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,200 On the issue of refugees, it's very clear that if Israel will 977 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,600 be ready to accept the Palestinian refugees, we're not 978 00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:30,960 talking about, we're not talking about two states for two people. 979 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,160 We are talking about two states for one people. 980 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,280 The Palestinians and and Israel will never accept it. 981 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,840 So this is a red line. We know that the 67 border is 982 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:41,880 the basic borders with swap territories. 983 00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:43,720 We know that the solution to Jews. 984 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:47,640 This is the point. In. 985 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,480 This is the point in start of of a negotiation that aimed to 986 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:52,920 succeed. What do you what? 987 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:54,160 What do you mean? Sorry, Alan. 988 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,240 The the Oslo court said that that the negotiations will be on 989 00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,680 Jerusalem, on settlements, on refugees and on borders. 990 00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,280 In other words, there's no border. 991 00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:09,760 The 1967 Line was a line that was never agreed upon as a peace 992 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,760 region. It was the Jordanians in the 993 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,720 Armistice agreements of 1949 who insisted that this time. 994 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:21,200 You are a lawyer as As for now, the 67 border is the border of 995 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,080 the state of Israel. Israel until now never annexed 996 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,120 the West Bank into Israel, not by. 997 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,880 And this was the decision by, made by Israel. 998 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,240 And even in East Jerusalem, the Palestinians living in East 999 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,640 Jerusalem, they did and that was annexed to Israel. 1000 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,720 They're not Israeli citizens, they're just civilians. 1001 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,240 It's not by choice. It's not this is the, this is. 1002 00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,920 This is what this is. This is their status. 1003 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:50,160 They can ask and to beg Israel to change it and sometimes 1004 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,920 Israel agree to some, but it's not their choice. 1005 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:54,840 This is not true. They are being gone. 1006 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:57,320 They are being. Gone. 1007 00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,400 Civilians and not citizens because they are living in the 1008 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,720 other side of the Green Line and and and and the Austrian 1009 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,680 agreement cannot be an alibi to the occupation. 1010 01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:09,400 And you are using the Austrian agreement that the expiration 1011 01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,440 date is already over the Austrian agreement. 1012 01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,600 Is not a peace agreement is it was something temporary and 1013 01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,080 there's the expiration date is over we are overdosed argument 1014 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,600 don't use those argument as an alibi to build settlements and 1015 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,600 to erase the green light you're. Misleading the interviewer and 1016 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:30,000 you're misleading. Why what? 1017 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,200 What is not for you? Because first of all, the Oslo 1018 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,760 Accords never had an expiration date. 1019 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,520 The only expiration date, and I was involved in drafting it, is 1020 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,880 the five year period of the Palestinian Authority 1021 01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,600 government. That's the only expiration date. 1022 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,440 There's no expiration date. Secondly, the residents of 1023 01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:55,080 Jerusalem have got the option by law to adopt Israeli 1024 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,040 citizenship. Do you like some of? 1025 01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,000 The people that ask, I mean, would you please get 1026 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,080 citizenship? In if you please allow me, on 1027 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,880 the basis of cultural discussion, to finish a 1028 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,840 sentence. But the truth is also important. 1029 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,040 Well, are you allowing me or not, please? 1030 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,840 Well, thank you very much. They were given the right by law 1031 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,560 to assume Israeli citizenship. Some chose to do so. 1032 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,600 Some were threatened by the Palestinian leadership not to do 1033 01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:23,760 so. This is the fact and this is the 1034 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,840 law. Now you can argue and you can 1035 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,880 smile and you can. Because it's come. 1036 01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,360 From your your political position, it's not political. 1037 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,880 I'm explaining to you what the the legal situation is. 1038 01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:35,880 You either accept it or you reject. 1039 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,920 It are you agree with me on the legal issue that a child had 1040 01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:43,320 been born if he he's in Jewish in Jerusalem, he will be citizen 1041 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,840 automatically, but if he was a Palestinian he will be only 1042 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,520 civilian. Are you agree with me this this 1043 01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:53,360 is this is the default what he can do with that later he can 1044 01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,440 beg the Israelis to to get to get citizenship and sometimes 1045 01:01:57,440 --> 01:01:59,680 they did. Mostly they don't because of 1046 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,640 many excuses and it's take years to get it. 1047 01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:05,480 It's not something that my children or your children will 1048 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,960 have to go through when they are being born and automatically 1049 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:10,360 they are citizens of Israel. And this is because the Green 1050 01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:14,440 line is exist also in East Jerusalem, although we occupy E 1051 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,560 Jerusalem to Israel. Do you? 1052 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,760 I just, I just wanted to get back to your other point, if I 1053 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:23,880 could, which is just a historical reminder that Ariel 1054 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,240 Sharon was the father of the settlement movement. 1055 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,160 When he first announced disengagement, people laughed. 1056 01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,640 They said, oh, yeah, he's really going to send in bulldozers to 1057 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,920 destroy Gaza. And actually he did. 1058 01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:39,320 So I'm saying that political leaders move, at the end of the 1059 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,680 day very much out of expediency and larger goals. 1060 01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,760 And he always had this phrase that said, you know what you see 1061 01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:47,840 from here? You know, what you you see from 1062 01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,600 here, you don't see from there. You know, the vision changes and 1063 01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:55,560 so does the policy. And so, well, I think it's I 1064 01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,600 agree that that Netanyahu is not going right now in the direction 1065 01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,680 of two States and he's spoken against it. 1066 01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,400 He's also the same person that gave the Bar Ilan speech in 1067 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,160 which he talked about the rights of, of, of two peoples. 1068 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:12,560 So it's hard to tell where, where the policy is going to go. 1069 01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,680 But definitely, yes, I think it's the policy and not the 1070 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:16,880 people. And you had a question, I'm 1071 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,520 sorry. Well, just finally, I mean, what 1072 01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,880 do you think is the next step? If there is a step towards 1073 01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:27,120 progress, what is the next step you think is achievable? 1074 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,480 I think that for many years now there is a path to the two state 1075 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,840 solution because in the past even before October 7th when you 1076 01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,240 had Hamas in power in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority, so it 1077 01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,440 it was very difficult even to speak about the option to get an 1078 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,160 agreement. Now there is a path, there is an 1079 01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,800 offer on the table to end the war, prisoners exchange deal, 1080 01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,000 the hostages coming back home, an alternative government in 1081 01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,000 Gaza that you are being led by the Palestinian Authority, Egypt 1082 01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:59,760 emirated in the in the Saudi moving forward to the two state 1083 01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,800 solution and having a regional peace between Israel and Saudi 1084 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:07,280 Arabia and other countries. This is the path for some kind 1085 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:11,000 of hope for Israelis and also for the Palestinians. 1086 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,760 This is not something that was not there before. 1087 01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,120 Unfortunately, there is not enough political will and 1088 01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:23,200 there's not enough support among the Israelis for this, this 1089 01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:25,600 package, but this is where we have to go. 1090 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,400 I think that the next question will come immediately after the 1091 01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:33,200 war is about the consequences of the war, about the 1092 01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:38,120 accountability, about the ICC about to indict who and who is 1093 01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,880 the war criminals here. I think this may the main, these 1094 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,680 will be the main questions. And our question here wouldn't 1095 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,320 be the major question will be the consequences of the first 1096 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:53,000 question, because when you deal with accountability, then the 1097 01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:56,200 question of the Palestinian, the right of Palestinian for self 1098 01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:58,560 determination will become easier question. 1099 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:03,040 Because then first you would say this people passed genocide, 1100 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:09,080 this people were killed, 10% of this people were killed and Gaza 1101 01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,400 was destroyed. And we don't have this in the 1102 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:18,200 modern history that one area totally was destroyed and most 1103 01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,280 of its people became disabled. This is the main question. 1104 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:23,000 This is what we are going to face. 1105 01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,920 And after that will be clear that the Palestinian have the 1106 01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:31,640 right for self determination. I think this is what we now 1107 01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,120 denying. We are denying just because we 1108 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:37,560 are living the moment. I am Palestinian city of Israel, 1109 01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:39,960 I want to tell you crash something. 1110 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,080 Do you know how I feel? I am Hebrew speaker, Arabic 1111 01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:47,040 speaker. I am like the German Jew who is 1112 01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:54,080 walking in Berlin in 1937 when his state killing his people and 1113 01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,760 he is wondering whether my turn will come soon or not. 1114 01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,200 This is what we are living. This is exactly what we are 1115 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,520 living. So the question 2 state one 1116 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,200 mistake I think will be a minor question. 1117 01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,080 The main question is accountability and who is 1118 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,560 responsible for the genocide and about building Gaza. 1119 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,000 This is the main question. I don't think any Palestinian 1120 01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,120 now today is concern about one state, 2 state. 1121 01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,200 If I will ask the Palestinian people to have demonstration, 1122 01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:28,000 support 2 state or one state, I won't find 100 persons to 1123 01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,160 demonstrate. But if I will tell them 1124 01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,280 demonstrate to stop the war, to stop the genocide, millions will 1125 01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:40,160 come to demonstrate. Well, you know, without getting 1126 01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:44,280 into sort of buzzwords and empty phrases, I think to a large 1127 01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,720 extent what Yariv said is correct. 1128 01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,960 Once we get to the stage that the the war ends and the 1129 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,560 hostages come back and there's some type of responsible 1130 01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:59,600 governance in the Gaza Strip, whether it's organised by the 1131 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,760 Emirates and, and the Egyptians and, and the Americans or 1132 01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:05,840 whoever. Once we get there, then we come 1133 01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:10,920 to back to the issue of, OK, are we going to be able to negotiate 1134 01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:16,120 1234 states or whatever and this will then be the issue. 1135 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:20,720 And it takes 2 to tango. This can't be imposed 1136 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,840 unilaterally. It has to be something to be 1137 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,720 negotiated. And in order to negotiate, we 1138 01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:32,000 need people to willing to build up mutual trust and negotiate 1139 01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:34,400 with each other. Now I'm sure that that Yariv, 1140 01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,440 myself and possibly Hassan, we could possibly form a very good 1141 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,240 negotiating group to negotiate these things, assuming that we 1142 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:48,280 allow each other to talk. But this has to this is the pre 1143 01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:51,400 free requirement. First of all, there has to be a 1144 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,520 willingness to negotiate and there has to be with whom to 1145 01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:56,560 negotiate. And at the moment there there 1146 01:07:56,560 --> 01:08:01,720 there's no real genuine Palestinian leadership that that 1147 01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:06,680 that's not afraid and that that's willing and able and 1148 01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:11,680 capable to take on the mantle of representing the Palestinian 1149 01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,320 people to negotiate. I think once this happens, then 1150 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:19,560 I think the Israelis will be very happy to negotiate with 1151 01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,960 them. Yeah, and you need to end the 1152 01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:24,279 war. You can't do anything until. 1153 01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:26,279 Yeah, that's the first thing. And the hostages are home. 1154 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:30,359 What happens to Gaza is going to be very determinative. 1155 01:08:30,399 --> 01:08:33,520 In other words, if you have some kind of a solution for Gaza that 1156 01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:35,960 could again become a prototype for what you might be able to 1157 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,560 see in the West Bank, I think you're going to have in his 1158 01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,160 election, right? So it could be that the, the 1159 01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:46,399 next step would be under an Israeli leader who we don't know 1160 01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:48,319 who that would be. And that would definitely change 1161 01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:50,000 the question. You're definitely going to need 1162 01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:54,000 new Palestinian leadership. So I think in spite of the 1163 01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:58,720 declarations on September 22nd, you don't you don't have a 1164 01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,560 recipe right now for a successful 2 takes, but you 1165 01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:07,200 could the end to the Gaza war, a good conclusion to the day after 1166 01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,840 for Gaza that could be a prototype different leadership. 1167 01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:13,840 Yeah, I think you could. And you're going to have an 1168 01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,399 that. Might mean releasing people like 1169 01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:18,240 Malang Barghiti. It could be all kinds of things, 1170 01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:19,840 yes. I mean, you know, there's we're 1171 01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:22,840 assuming we're we're throwing around all these things as if 1172 01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,160 the reality today is going to be the forever reality. 1173 01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:31,000 But it's not just like the reality in 2022 is not it. 1174 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,720 Who is in leadership in the United States? 1175 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,319 Does this all happen in the next couple years while Trump, you 1176 01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:38,040 know, is in power, who becomes U.S. 1177 01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,439 President afterwards, etcetera, etcetera? 1178 01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:42,680 What happens with Russia and Ukraine? 1179 01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:46,240 All of these, all of these are ingredients, you know. 1180 01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:50,180 So it it, it turns a very simple thing, which is the self 1181 01:09:50,180 --> 01:09:52,560 determination of people into a very complex equation. 1182 01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:55,400 We must leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed 1183 01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:56,840 for joining us. Thank you. 1184 01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,680 That's the forecast from Jerusalem, The more cast 1185 01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,080 forecast. Until next time, Bye. 1186 01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:03,320 Bye.