1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 The world hasn't found a way to step up. 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,960 And I guess that's my my demand. My message really is like what 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:07,880 would it take? We're in a world of strong men, 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,680 aren't we? Of, of Putin and Trump. 5 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,840 You never hear them talk about the UN. 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,560 It's it's almost like a meaningless institution to them. 7 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,320 Well, there is a there is this risk that we end up feeling 8 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,480 slightly orphaned by the international system because in 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:22,400 a world of strong men, the last thing they need is an 10 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,840 organization coming in that opposes this sense of sort of 11 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,440 survival of the fittest. We seem to be in this age of 12 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,479 indifference, of impunity, where people aren't being held to 13 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:38,680 account. Hello and welcome to the 14 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,000 Forecast. My guest today was recently 15 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,240 described as having the toughest job in the world. 16 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,680 Tom Fletcher, the Under Secretary General for 17 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,480 Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, is 18 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:53,440 juggling humanitarian crises across the globe, from Gaza to 19 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,240 Sudan, from Ukraine to Yemen. He is tasked with relieving the 20 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,080 suffering of the displaced, the hungry and those in danger in a 21 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,440 world that may not have the resources or the will to 22 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,440 respond. Tom, thank you for joining us 23 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,200 from Switzerland, your headquarters. 24 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,240 I think we have to start with Gaza because it is such an 25 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,200 immediate crisis. You have been warning for weeks 26 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,840 now that people are starving and and they still are today, aren't 27 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,240 they? They certainly are, and that's 28 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,800 why, Christian, you know, to your introduction, I don't have 29 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,240 the toughest job in the world. The toughest job in the world is 30 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,880 sitting there watching your kid having his arm cut off in a 31 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,040 hospital without an anaesthetic. The toughest job in the world 32 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,640 is, of course, being a survivor of sexual violence somewhere 33 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,920 like Darfur and having to go home to your family and not tell 34 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,920 them what's happened because you're worried you'll be thrown 35 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,200 out of your town. The toughest job in the world is 36 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,440 being one of the 190 million lives that we need to get out 37 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,640 there and save right now who are not getting the funding, not 38 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,320 getting the support we need. And of course, the epicenter of 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,880 that need across the world right now is Gaza. 40 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,640 And it's why there's such a tension on this crisis, and it's 41 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,400 why we've been sounding the alarm for months now about this 42 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,720 starvation crisis. The world simply hasn't stepped 43 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:10,800 up though, has it? I mean, you. 44 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,800 You've been sounding that alarm in the Security Council, in the 45 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,440 media, and people are still today starving to death. 46 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,320 And that's the tragedy of this, is that we can see what's 47 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,880 happening and OK, you can't get in, Krishna. 48 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,280 The media can't get in. You need to be there telling the 49 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:27,760 story. We are there. 50 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,160 We're on the ground. We've got thousands of people 51 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,480 inside Gaza who are telling us every day. 52 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,240 And we're passing on that information through the Security 53 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,960 Council, through the briefings, through interviews like this. 54 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,480 And the world hasn't found a way to step up. 55 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,280 And I guess that's my my demand, my message really is like, what 56 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,840 would it take? Why aren't we seeing that 57 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,520 pressure that's necessary for this to stop, for the crossings 58 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,440 to be open. We need all of those crossings 59 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,280 open. We've got the means to get in 60 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,320 the aid needed to save these lives, hundreds of thousands of 61 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,560 lives at risk right now. And it we're being prevented. 62 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:05,120 Can you explain what the situation is? 63 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,920 Because we're getting very confused messages from both 64 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:10,720 Israel and the GHF who are suggesting that the UN is 65 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,360 allowed to operate. So what? 66 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,480 What are you allowed to do and what can't you do? 67 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:19,120 Well, I'm afraid that for much of the recent months, and I, I 68 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,760 was in Gaza myself in a period when things were operating more 69 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,000 effectively and we were getting IN600700 trucks a day. 70 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Still not enough, but but enough to actually save lives at scale. 71 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,400 I'm afraid that what we've seen since then is that we've been 72 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,560 set up to fail. So we're getting in maybe 100 73 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,640 trucks on a good day out of the 600 or 700 trucks that we need 74 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,000 to to deal with the conditions that we face. 75 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,760 But it's not a question of just driving those trucks through the 76 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,880 borders. And these are trucks that with 77 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,840 baby food on, with anaesthetics on, with essential medical and 78 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,640 food on. And you have to go through a 79 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,200 hugely laborious process before you can get those trucks to the 80 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,280 border crossing and through that border crossing. 81 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,200 Then you have to unload those trucks onto pallets next to the 82 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,200 crossing in those Israeli controlled areas. 83 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,240 You then need to get a different set of permissions for a 84 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,160 different set of trucks, a different set of drivers to come 85 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,560 and pick those up. On a good day, we might get half 86 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,600 of those permissions. The rest are denied. 87 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,120 You then have to hit a series of Israeli checkpoints. 88 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,440 Often the trucks turn around because it's nightfall and they 89 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,160 tell us we have to go back. Or they say the battle lines 90 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,520 have moved and it's not safe for us to move. 91 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,720 And even then, when we get through, we then have to cross 92 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:38,520 these areas where desperate, starving, hungry civilians will 93 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,960 hit those trucks, understandably because they will do anything to 94 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,760 feed their families. So when Israel says there are 95 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,720 hundreds of trucks waiting to be, you know, driven into people 96 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,080 and the UN is just not doing it, and we've offered to help, 97 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,320 that's not true. It's just not true. 98 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,000 And you know, we, we have to soak up a certain amount of 99 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,400 this, but you know, we are humanitarians. 100 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,000 This is our day job. Our work is to move those 101 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,800 trucks. We've got the distribution 102 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,520 networks, we've got the community relationships to get 103 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,480 them to where they're needed to flood the market with aid, which 104 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,960 is the only way you'll deal with the starvation crisis. 105 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,800 It's the only way to deal with the looting, with the fact that 106 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,880 there is that food is being sold on the in the on the black 107 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,160 market because there's so little getting in. 108 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,280 We can do all that. The idea that we'd be sat there 109 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,880 refusing to move aid, you know, it's just offensive. 110 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,680 Well, I mean, you know, as you know, the Israel says that the 111 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,960 reason that they, you know, replaced the previous operation 112 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,840 was because all, you know, most of the aid was being stolen by 113 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:42,480 Hamas. How how much aid was being 114 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,600 stolen by Hamas? How much was were you just 115 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,120 getting through normal normal channels? 116 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,920 I'm afraid, you know, as as the people we work with at a 117 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,840 technical level understand on the ground, you know, this is 118 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:55,400 just nonsense. The idea that that Hamas were 119 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,280 stealing his aid at scale. If there was evidence of that, 120 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,360 do you not think with that immense communications machine 121 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,720 out there trying to discredit our work, we wouldn't have seen 122 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,480 more of that evidence? The vast, vast majority of the 123 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,680 aid we were getting through when we were allowed to deliver 124 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:12,600 without these impediments, without these obstacles, was 125 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,520 getting to the civilians who so badly, badly need it. 126 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:17,880 Now. Does that mean that there isn't 127 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,560 a grain of rice or a sack of wheat that gets stolen, sold on 128 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,160 the market, on the black market and that Hamas get some of that? 129 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,560 It's impossible to guarantee that that doesn't happen in a in 130 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,120 such a chaotic environment when Hamas have a lot of the power 131 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,800 and the weapons on the ground. But this is a tiny fraction of 132 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,520 what we were able to get through to civilians, and that we would 133 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,600 be able to get through again if we were allowed to genuinely 134 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,000 operate. If a fraction of the energy and 135 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,600 money that was being spent on perpetuating this conflict was 136 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,440 actually spent on allowing us to save lives, we could do this at 137 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,520 scale. What is really at stake here 138 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,360 though? Because I can't really remember 139 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:06,360 a time in my career where the UN has been so undermined openly by 140 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,120 governments and you really thought well is this the is this 141 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,520 the beginning of the end of these big international rules 142 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,720 and international organisations having any authority? 143 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,840 So there is a broader sustained attack actually on our values 144 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,800 and principles, on this whole international system. 145 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,600 And look, take it from me, I've been doing this job 8-9 months 146 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,200 now. This is not a perfect system. 147 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,040 It has its flaws, but we have the most committed people in the 148 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,800 world, the experts. People are busting a gut, 149 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,800 working around the clock. Our own people are starving 150 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,160 inside Gaza. We will do everything to get 151 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,160 that aid through, but we are facing this much more sustained 152 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:48,160 public attack. Now. 153 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,400 Some of that is just to distract from what's going on. 154 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,240 Some of it is also because we have a dual mandate here. 155 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,160 We have a mandate to deliver aid and we also have a mandate to 156 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,840 come and talk to people like you and the Security Council and 157 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,720 tell you what we're seeing to bear testimony to what is 158 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,280 happening in Gaza, just as we bear testimony in Sudan, in 159 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,000 Afghanistan, in Haiti and Yemen, in all of these conflicts. 160 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,240 And it's that role which is really under attack. 161 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:19,440 And I get told explicitly that unless we dial down the 162 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,600 reporting, unless we dial down the conversations with people 163 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,880 like you, that we will face further restrictions. 164 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,320 And just recently, the head of office for my team, the person 165 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,360 coordinating this aid delivery, was basically told he no longer 166 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,480 had access because he's been out there reporting on what he's 167 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,000 seeing. And told by by the. 168 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:40,720 Israeli government, that's right. 169 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,039 So they control the visas and there is always a back and forth 170 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:45,960 over the visas for our aid workers. 171 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,160 And he was basically told that's it, you won't get a visa from 172 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,560 now on because you've been speaking out about the 173 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:54,160 humanitarian situation, the crisis that you're witnessing. 174 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,840 Israel says you're biased. You know that you are basically 175 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,520 against them, that you spell Hamas propaganda. 176 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,520 I will not buy it. We it is in our DNA. 177 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,400 It's in our charter, it's at the heart of what we do, that we 178 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,640 must be independent, impartial, neutral. 179 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,960 We cannot be biased. It would completely undermine 180 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,600 everything we do everywhere if we were to show that bias. 181 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,880 And I've, you know, from the start of this crisis, from my 182 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,200 first day in this job, I've been calling for the hostages to be 183 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,200 released. That call should be unequivocal, 184 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,960 unconditional. We've got to get the hostages 185 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,080 home. I visited near Oz, one of the 186 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,120 kibbutz that was hit on October the 7th, where one in four 187 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,000 people were either killed or taken hostage. 188 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,640 I'm in regular contact with the families there, desperate to get 189 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,160 their loved ones home. Desperate, by the way, they tell 190 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,440 me for a ceasefire as well. And also desperate, importantly, 191 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,400 because it this isn't a key message to get out as well. 192 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,760 They tell me that they want the aid to get in. 193 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,160 They do not want to see people starving on the other side of 194 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,400 that of that fence. So we will always be neutral. 195 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,520 We will be independent. You know, we will fight to 196 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,040 defend the values of the UN Charter and that means we'll be 197 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,800 neutral. So again, absolute nonsense. 198 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,080 And I just will not take it that when we're accused of not being 199 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,080 neutral. You see around 100 aid agencies 200 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,040 have come out and been fiercely critical of the Gaza 201 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,200 Humanitarian Foundation, this new organization that is handing 202 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,880 out aid in Israel and is accused of sort of being an instrument 203 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,600 of Israeli policy now in Gaza because people are being killed 204 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,320 either going there or leaving it, but mostly by Israeli 205 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,880 forces. Now they they say that these GHF 206 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,200 distribution points are effectively, you know, sort of 207 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,280 the bait in a, in a death trap for people in Gaza. 208 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,760 Are they right? So I've I've seen that 209 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,720 statement, it's a very powerful statement from our our allies in 210 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,960 the humanitarian movement, in the humanitarian community who 211 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,000 know the situation incredibly well on the ground and who stand 212 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,360 for the principles and values as as we do of impartiality and 213 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,880 independence and neutrality in the delivery of aid. 214 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,840 The key thing for us here is that aid has to be delivered in 215 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,560 a in line with those principles. We have real concerns about 216 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,200 militarized hubs, about security contractors. 217 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,720 We have concerns, as I've said out in the Security Council 218 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,040 consistently, about anything which displaces people and which 219 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,920 risks dehumanizing people. Now we want aid to get through. 220 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,600 We want starving people to get food, but we desperately want 221 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,560 that to be done in line with these principles and in ways 222 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:40,280 that protects civilians and doesn't harm them. 223 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,880 Is there, is there some disagreements in the UN around 224 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,200 this? Because it's being reported that 225 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,640 some of your staff have met the GHF. 226 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,480 In fact, the GHF told us that today that they've had meetings 227 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,520 with UN staff. They didn't say from which UN 228 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,040 organization. And there is this leaked letter 229 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,840 from UNRWA, the the, the, the Palestinian Refugees 230 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:05,040 Organization chief, you know, sort of basically saying they 231 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,800 want you to take a harder line. So there have been meetings with 232 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,920 GHF on the ground, but also in in New York there was a meeting 233 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,600 last week with several UN agencies present. 234 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,560 For us, we'll go anywhere. It's the nature of our job. 235 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,560 I've been recently in Afghanistan talking to the 236 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,360 Taliban. I was in DRC recently talking to 237 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,320 M23. When I was in Israel, I was 238 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,600 talking to the Israeli authorities. 239 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,640 We go anywhere, talk to anyone in order to try to get 240 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,280 humanitarian aid through. That doesn't mean that we are 241 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,840 working together some somehow or that we align ourselves with the 242 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,560 approach of any of those organisations, including the 243 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:45,360 contractors that you mentioned. We have to have this principled 244 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,120 approach, but we also need to talk to anyone. 245 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,600 So. So could you imagine UN staff 246 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,520 working with the GHF? No, I can't imagine that. 247 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:58,920 I mean, we, we couldn't work through a militarized system in 248 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,600 that way. We have to have a system which 249 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,720 is independent and impartial. That's in our DNA as, as, as 250 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,840 humanitarians. I don't wish them to fail. 251 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,200 If they can get food through, that's a good thing. 252 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,960 But I just wish they would do it in a principle humanitarian way. 253 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,080 And that that's a view shared, by the way, across the the UN 254 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,320 system. There isn't a division among UN 255 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,000 agencies on this. We're speaking as one. 256 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:29,200 There's also a report that there is a, there's a plan to possibly 257 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:34,640 move Palestinians in Gaza to South Sudan, another area where 258 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,200 your organization has been very active in tackling Humanitarian 259 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,040 Affairs. I mean, you know, it's not been 260 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:47,320 confirmed, but if this were to be a real plan as part of sort 261 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,640 of either as the temporary reconstruction of Gaza and 262 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,520 temporary emptying or something more permanent, what would your 263 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,080 view of it be? Anything that involves forced 264 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,480 displacement, ethnic cleansing of a civilian population breaks 265 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,840 all the rules. And, you know, you hear a lot of 266 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:11,280 preposterous, atrocious ideas again and again coming out of 267 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,440 this conflict. And I'm afraid this is just one 268 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,160 more of those, you know, Christian, you know, South 269 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,880 Sudan, you know, the conditions there. 270 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,720 You know, we operate there. We try to deliver civilian for 271 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,040 civilians there, humanitarian aid to support those 272 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,400 populations. Displacing the Palestinians 273 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,720 somewhere else is not the answer. 274 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,480 I was in Gaza recently. They want to stay, and they have 275 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,960 a right to stay in their homeland, in their homes, which 276 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,960 have been reduced to rubble. But everyone I spoke to there 277 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,800 said that when the guns fell silent, and as we must hope that 278 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,880 they will, they would rebuild, that they would stay and rebuild 279 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,040 their communities again in Gaza. I mean, a big part of your job, 280 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,080 as you say, is going to these places yourself, seeing it and 281 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,880 then reporting back on it. How, how do you, how do you cope 282 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,040 with that? I mean, I, I read, I think an 283 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,160 interview with you in which you talked about having taken on a 284 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,120 therapist because of this job. So, you know, as you started, I 285 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,720 mean, this is a very tough job in terms of the, the travel 286 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,840 schedule, but, but more in terms of, of, of what you're seeing 287 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,280 and experiencing and the, and the sense of responsibility you 288 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,960 have to come out and tell those stories from people who 289 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,960 otherwise aren't being heard. Because often this will be in 290 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,880 places. And I went to Darfur in my first 291 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,320 week, places where the international media can't 292 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,120 necessarily get. Gaza was another classic example 293 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,120 of that. But also I got across, I went, I 294 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,120 travelled across Syria just after the fall of the Assad 295 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,720 regime and met many communities there, you know, who, who were 296 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,520 telling their stories for the first time. 297 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,040 So, you know, my job does feel hard at times, but it's much, 298 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,200 much easier than being one of those civilians who we serve. 299 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,760 And, and my job, your job, our collective job, is to make sure 300 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,280 their stories are heard and that the world responds with much 301 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,280 greater compassion and kindness to those realities for those 302 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,480 people. Because the reality at the 303 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,160 moment is that we seem to be in this age of indifference, of 304 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,480 impunity, where people aren't being held to account for what's 305 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,360 happening to these civilians and where this less generous 306 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,240 approach is becoming somehow fine to say we should cut aid 307 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,320 budgets at a moment when the needs are actually going in the 308 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,600 opposite direction. All I'm asking for here is 1% of 309 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,120 what the world spends on defence and we could save over 100 310 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,600 million lives. I can't believe, I mean, Can you 311 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,280 believe? I can't believe that's too much 312 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,440 to ask. Britain is cutting its 313 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,640 international aid budget and transferring the money into 314 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,400 defence. America has slashed USAID. 315 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,240 What kind of effect are these cuts having? 316 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,560 The effect of these cuts internationally, it's not just 317 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,960 the Americans and the Brits, many others, is brutal choices. 318 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:56,160 And my teams are every day making the toughest choices you 319 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,400 can imagine. Life and death decisions, which 320 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,400 program to shut down, which program to save, which basically 321 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,200 means which lives to save and which lives not to save. 322 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,640 And I see that all the time on my missions. 323 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,880 I mean, recently in Afghanistan, I saw just after the funding 324 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,960 cuts there started to really bite. 325 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,800 I sat with Afghan mothers who'd lost their children because 326 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,599 they'd had to cycle 3 hours on bumpy roads to get to the 327 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:22,680 nearest clinic to try to give birth. 328 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,680 So these are really biting right now, these cuts, and they have a 329 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,760 a life and death impact and it's why we have to get out there and 330 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,360 make the case as effectively as we can that 1% of what we're 331 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,880 spending on defence would actually save 100 million lives. 332 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,520 Surely that is a mission that we can all get behind. 333 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,600 How, how do you persuade a public at home that is 334 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,840 skeptical, that is struggling, that they do need to spend more 335 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,360 on the crises that you go to? Well, that's the $1,000,000 336 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:55,840 question, Christian. In fact, you know, it's the $20 337 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,640 billion question because that's what it would take to, to reach 338 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,240 these 100 million lives that we need to, to save. 339 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:02,960 I think, you know, it starts with empathy. 340 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,640 I think we've got to understand that people are anxious at home. 341 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,360 They're worried about their own families getting hospital 342 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:10,560 appointments, about their their kids education. 343 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,280 This is a moment of anxiety and distraction. 344 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,080 And that doesn't mean that people are somehow lacking 345 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,480 compassion for those on the other side of the world. 346 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,960 I think then there's a set of arguments around self-interest. 347 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,640 And it's, I'm sorry to put it in that more cynical, crude way 348 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,560 that will upset a lot of people who, like me, are driven by this 349 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,760 sort of humanitarian mission. But there is a self-interest 350 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,920 point, a pragmatic point here, that unless we deal with 351 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,320 epidemics, conflicts, inequality, poverty on the other 352 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,720 side of the world, then actually these problems will come in our 353 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,040 direction. You can't put a tariff on a 354 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:48,040 pandemic and you can't stop the migration that will be caused by 355 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,640 an explosion of these conflicts and actually will be driven by 356 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,960 climate change in the next 5-10 years as well. 357 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,240 And then I think perhaps most importantly, we've got to get 358 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,560 back to the human story at the heart of this. 359 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,600 We probably don't win the argument by just talking about 360 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,800 the defence of institutions. And here I am standing in front 361 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,080 of this picture of of flags. We probably don't win the 362 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,960 argument by just talking about our values and principles. 363 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,360 We've got to be talking about those individuals and those 364 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:19,800 lives, people who are just like us but are facing these immense, 365 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,800 immense obstacles and for whom this small amount of support can 366 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,760 be life changing. We've got to get their stories 367 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,160 told. Now, obviously Gaza has been 368 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,440 getting a huge amount of attention, but in terms of lives 369 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,800 and suffering, you know, Sudan is absolutely terrible. 370 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,160 There are, you know, Yemen is still very, very difficult. 371 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,560 There are lots of places around the world where there is 372 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,160 terrible human suffering that doesn't get the attention and 373 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:46,680 therefore doesn't get that cut through. 374 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:50,880 How, how do you decide, you know, where you try and shine 375 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,840 the light? Or are you just, you know, do 376 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:54,960 you just have to go where the media attention goes 377 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,280 effectively? This is a really difficult 378 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,760 challenge for us. We're desperate to get more 379 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,720 attention for Sudan, for Yemen, for DRC, and for many of these 380 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,880 conflicts which which seem to be forgotten by the mainstream 381 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,000 media. A big part of this, I think, is 382 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,560 to get journalists in. And I know you, Christian, that 383 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,160 you do this as well, to get them in behind the battle lines, 384 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,160 telling the story way more effectively than we can. 385 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,600 But we've also had to massively prioritize among these different 386 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,680 crises. When I came into office, we 387 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,680 prioritised 28 country crises and one of the very, very tough 388 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,000 decisions as part of our, what we call the hyper 389 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,520 prioritisation, we've had to do is now to focus on just 21. 390 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,040 So that means there are country crises which just won't be 391 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,240 getting the same attention, the same resources that they need. 392 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,360 It doesn't mean these needs have gone away. 393 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,280 It's just mean. It just means that we've had to 394 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,600 take these brutal, brutal choices about where to 395 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:47,720 prioritise. Yeah. 396 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,640 I mean, particularly in the Western world as well, though 397 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,000 obviously the whole question of waste and, you know, lavish 398 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,360 headquarters and expenses and highly paid officials and all 399 00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:59,440 the rest of it is also a big political issue. 400 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,920 I mean, as you say, you're standing there in front of an 401 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,920 image of a very lavish looking UN building. 402 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,000 I mean, how much does the UN need to reform and cut its cloth 403 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,560 do you think? It's a big part of the answer to 404 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,280 this. And so as part of what what I 405 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,000 call the humanitarian reset, we're doing 4 big things. 406 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,800 One is to define much more clearly the mission around those 407 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,600 hundred 114 million lives that we know we can save this year if 408 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,960 we get the resource. The second thing is to devolve 409 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,360 much more power in this system to give power away to local 410 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,520 communities. Power shouldn't be with people 411 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,560 like me standing in front of flags in a, in a suit and tie in 412 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,320 Geneva. It should be with those local 413 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,560 community organizations that really know what the needs are, 414 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,520 so pushing more resource, more authority to them. 415 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,560 And then thirdly, you're right, this massive area around 416 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,200 delivery and efficiency. And I've been doing this since 417 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,400 the first day when I came into office before Elon Musk started 418 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,760 waving a chainsaw around, finding ways, very practical 419 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,440 ways, to make sure that we are delivering in the most efficient 420 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,040 way possible. And we're really driving that 421 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,280 program of reform and efficiency right now. 422 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,440 The 4th area that's really important is then defend 423 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,720 defending international law. As you said earlier, these are 424 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,160 the values and principles which are under sustained attack right 425 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,280 now. And we've got to hold the line 426 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,840 here. We've got to defend this hill. 427 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,400 We've got to defend the Charter. We've got to defend the United 428 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,000 Nations. It's imperfect, but it is the 429 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,240 best idea we've had in our history for promoting global 430 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,080 coexistence. And if anyone can tell me that a 431 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,920 world without the United Nations is a better world than bring on 432 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,120 that argument because we're out there trying to stop those 433 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,000 conflicts, trying to save those lives. 434 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,040 And I, you know, that to me feels like a pretty important 435 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,080 mission. I mean, The thing is, we're, 436 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,880 we're in a world of strong men, aren't we? 437 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,760 Of, of Putin and Trump and you know, in different ways, Modi 438 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:54,440 and India and XI in China, you know, they, they, you never hear 439 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,000 them talk about the UN. It's it's almost like a 440 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,880 meaningless institution to them. Well, there is, there is this 441 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,200 risk that we end up feeling slightly orphaned by the 442 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,360 international system because in a world of strong men, the last 443 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,160 thing they need is an organization coming in that 444 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,040 opposes this sense of sort of survival of the fittest. 445 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,200 You know, I've always read, written and and said that, you 446 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,920 know, we have these two human instincts. 1 is to compete for 447 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,960 resource and one is to collaborate and work together 448 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,880 for resource. And the UN is unequivocally 449 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560 looking for that collaboration, looking for that cooperation. 450 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,240 And that doesn't suit strong men who want a more transactional 451 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,640 might is right approach to the world. 452 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,080 But that's where you need us as, as humanity, because we were 453 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720 invented, remember, because of an age of strong men, because 454 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,360 we'd seen what happened to the world when we went too far down 455 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,080 that track of the strongman, of the autocrat, of fighting for 456 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,120 resource in that way. And we've learnt a lot over 457 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:54,000 those 80 years. We're just coming up to that 458 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,200 80th anniversary. We're constantly reforming. 459 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,280 But at the heart of all this must be our charter and this 460 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,040 work we do to, to stop those wars and to to save lives. 461 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,920 And as I say, there cannot be a more important mission. 462 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,200 So, so who, who can stand up to them? 463 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,800 I mean, I guess it's quite hard for you, you know, you're, you 464 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,680 know, a senior official in a, in a organization that's supposed 465 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,080 to be impartial, as you say. Is it for the is it for the 466 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,680 secretary general to stand up to Donald Trump and say you need to 467 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,080 respect the rules based order? Well, an organization which I'd 468 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,640 stress is impartial, not just supposed to be impartial, but we 469 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,760 are impartial. I think what you're seeing in 470 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,480 this moment actually where some of the more traditional 471 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,120 supporters of the UN are being a bit more critical, a bit more 472 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,200 sceptical. You are seeing other countries 473 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,840 step forward and say, look, this is not AUS LED organization. 474 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,360 This is not just about the big powers, about the permanent 475 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:51,880 members of the Security Council. This is our organization. 476 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,800 It belongs to all of us. And so many of those smaller 477 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,120 states, medium sized states, emerging economies, they're the 478 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,040 ones right now who are saying we've got to defend the values 479 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,200 and the institution of the UN. And of course, then it is also 480 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,200 for the SG, as he does to go out there and make the case 481 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,400 repeatedly, consistently, powerfully, as he, as he does, 482 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,600 always saying that we can be better. 483 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,440 And he's launched the UNAT Reform program, which is all 484 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,640 about making sure that we really are fit for purpose and that 485 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,840 we're constantly improving, but defending those values that that 486 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,080 are at the heart of what we do. We must. 487 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,560 Leave it there. Tom Fletcher, thank you very 488 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,080 much indeed for your time. Many thanks, Christian. 489 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,640 Thank you. Well, that's it for this episode 490 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,000 of The Forecast. Until next time, bye bye.